David Wondrich on the Past, Present & Future of the Cocktail *V* - The Restaurant Guys

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mark (00:41):
Good morning,

Francis (00:42):
mark.
How are you?

Mark (00:42):
I,

Francis (00:43):
I'm well.
No more double espressos for youbefore the show.
No more do I, my intro

Mark (00:49):
was a little bit more animated today, wasn't it?
Actually, the

Francis (00:51):
engineer is still waving at me.
He's turning your levels down.
You little, you little, littlehigh on life this morning.
That's good.
We're gonna talk later on withDavid Wdr, uh, one of our
favorite writers on cocktails.
He has a new book out calledImbibe.
Uh, and it's just, it'sfascinating read and it's like.
Look, I, I know we have recipebooks, et cetera, and so this
has got over a hundred recipesin it, but you could sit on the

(01:11):
beach and read it straightthrough.
It's a, it's a history ofcocktails.
Fascinating book.
Alright, so that's for later.
I wanna start off with somethingI'm pod about a little bit here.

Mark (01:19):
Oh golly.
All those I always hate when westart off a show with you pod
about something.

Francis (01:24):
No, we we're, it, I'm not really pod, We're in the,
we're in the, I told you so.
Moment you look incredulous iswhat you look, I'm incre.
I, it's just, it's happenedagain.
Um, I want, it's happened again.
Uh oh.
It, I wanna read, you know, Idon't even know where this is
from, so I can attribute it.
Well, we can go if you're, ifyou're interested where this
comes from, I'll, I'll let youknow.
but I emailed it to myself andI, I guess I left off the tag.
Uh, there's an article thatappeared well somewhere.

(01:47):
It says, uh,

Mark (01:48):
we do know it appeared April 4th.

Francis (01:49):
It says the next new flavor.
Makes the scene, pomegranate hasnow had its rain.
What's the next it flavor on thecocktail scene?
Okay.
First of all, pomegranatepomegranates around hundreds of
years.
Wait, wait, no, no.
But Pomegranate had its rain aslike, it's like the new thing.
Mm-hmm.
We started making our owngranite two years ago, two and a

(02:12):
half years ago out ofpomegranates.
And

Mark (02:15):
So it's not over, is that what you're saying?
Still got some, got some legs.

Francis (02:18):
Don't, but no.
What I'm, no, what I'm saying,we, we, if we are first.
I know we're in Jersey, butcan't someone just acknowledge
that we were first?
Can't someone just acknowledge?
Okay.
Um, and here's, here's anotherone.
This is gonna make my head popoff.
The next new flavor it seems iselder flowers.

Mark (02:35):
Oh my goodness.

Francis (02:37):
For the Hollywood opening of Oceans 13, George
Clooney ordered 800 elder flowercocktails like pomegranate,
elderberries and elder flowersare said to have health
benefits.
and like.
Palma, the pomegranate liqueur,uh, the elder flower has a
champion in the new liqueurSangerman.
Now Sangerman is a very goodspirit and a

Mark (02:54):
new liqueur, relatively a new liqueur, and

Francis (02:56):
it's a relatively new liqueur, but we have been making
drinks and sorbet and soupswith, elder flour syrup.
From Austria, from our, ourfriends at the Nikolaihof Winery
in Austria since, what are yougonna say?
96?
Mark.
That 10

Mark (03:12):
years, 12 years is about right.
That's about right.
96.

Francis (03:15):
We've been making cocktails with elder flowers,
elder flowers, syrup since 1996.
And to

Mark (03:20):
be fair, the Austrians have been doing it for a lot
longer than that.
That's correct.
Okay.
That's really, they really havebeen doing it for quite some
time.
El the flower syrup is not thenew magical thing that's just
fallen from the heavens on

Francis (03:34):
us.
Tough being in Jersey.
Elderflower syrup, uh, isnon-alcoholic and it's
traditional in, uh, Austria.
And I first traveled to Austriain 96 and came back with a case
of it.
Mm-hmm.
And we've had it imported eversince.
We've always had it in therestaurant.
Oh, that's great.
That's makes a great sorbet.
Works wonderfully in summersoups and Yeah.
Yes, we're using it in cocktailsand in Austria.
Traditional in, in Austria.

(03:55):
I said that with a jerseyaccent.
Austria.
Austria in Austria.
a traditional way to use elderflower syrup, and we've used it
as very refreshing, is you poura little bit of the elder flo
syrup in a glass, fill it withclub soda, and you've made your
own elder flower soda.
A non-alcoholic

Mark (04:11):
delicious one.
No corn syrup.
Uh, tasty, sweet, spectacularlittle.
Well, here we are.
Elder Silver Cocktail

Francis (04:18):
Elder is now showing up in restaurants in the United
States.
British based preta sends, uh,sells elder flour youth.
A soft drink.
smoothie chain elderberries inRoanoke, Virginia offers
elderberry flavor and evenDunkin Donuts now has an
elderberry smoothie.
I think I'm going to killmyself.
One of our most popularcocktails uses elder flour.

(04:40):
Cordial, says Holly Roberts, amixologist at Amalia Restaurant
and Lounge in New York City.
The drink muddles the cordialwith black cherries and gin.
Sounds pretty good actually, andit is a pretty good cordial, but
I just wanna say.
We got there first.
Well,

Mark (04:52):
it's not new.
The, the, the news that peopleare using Elda flower out there
and, and it's become a hot newthing is.
It is true, people are,beginning to see the value of,
of Elda flower and Elda flowersyrup.
Uh, but again, the Austrianshave been doing it for a long
time and they showed it to us along time ago.
And even some of the great chefsin New York have been using it

(05:14):
for a while.

Francis (05:15):
Uh, yeah, but not as long as we have.
Uh,

Mark (05:17):
but not as long as we are.
Am I being petty?
A little?
You're being a little small.
Francis Nanny, nanny

Francis (05:22):
Poo.
We were there first.
Okay.
Alright.
So, you know, here we are.
I wanna say it on the radio.
I'm gonna make this predictionbecause I've been trying to make
this happen now, uh, for a whileand, and it's difficult, but
I've, I've got some coming.
On my wedding, I have somefriends who have a, a blackthorn
bush, bringing me some of thesefrom Ireland.

(05:42):
Um, the next flavor in thecocktail world, and look, it is
April of 2008.
I'm going on the air, on record,and on the internet is saying
the next flavor will be slow.
Slow.
Berries are the fruit of the, ofthe blackthorn tree.

(06:03):
And it is what you make slow ginfrom.

Mark (06:05):
And they have the, they have the name already.
We got this slow food movement.
Right, exactly.
We're gonna follow suit with theslow berry movement because what
do you eat at a, what do you eatfor dessert or the slow food
dinner?
I'm

Francis (06:16):
just slow berries.
I'm just telling you.

Mark (06:19):
Slow berry ice cream, slow

Francis (06:20):
gin fist.
Now the thing is, the slow ginthat's available out on the
market right now mm-hmm.
Is not very good.
And, and tastes, to me, tastesvery artificial.
We are going to make our ownslow gin.
Now if any of you beat me to it,I'll be really mad.
Um, I've done it in a very smallbatch and it's very delicious.
Uh, so my friend Lawrence isgoing to bring me some, uh,

(06:41):
Lawrence and Anne-Marie, Ishould say as well, is gonna
bring me from their slow berrybush or from their black thorn
bush, some slow berries.
We're gonna infuse that into ginand we're gonna work with slow
bird's.
Problem is I can't get any slowbirds domestically.
And they're gonna make jam andbring in the jam'cause they
can't bring any live fruit.
'cause they can't bring in livefruit.
Correct.
They're gonna, I was wondering

Mark (06:59):
why you were telling on your friends for smuggling.
No, no.
They're gonna make a preservebefore they, before they
actually did it.
I thought, I thought that mightbe a good way to get them in a
lot of trouble.

Francis (07:08):
No.
Well, so you know, the otherthing that you can make from a,
blackthorn tree, do you knowthis, by the way?
I

Mark (07:12):
don't know.
I know very little about theblackthorn tree.
I, I, I'll be very honest withyou, it

Francis (07:17):
gives us so many wonderful things.
It gives us strawberries and itgives us blackthorn walking
sticks.
Oh, okay.
Which are the best walkingsticks in the world.
Sure.
And also, do you know what ismade from the.
The, a branch, a specific kindof cured branch with blackthorn
can, I guess one of the hardestwoods in the world.
Can I guess, go ahead.
A ele that's correct, sir, thatyou, you, that is correct.

Mark (07:40):
You are nothing if not predictable.
I dunno how you got with that.
I dunno.
You got, it's great.
I'm sure it was the smirk onyour face gave it away.

Francis (07:47):
A, a black thorn walking stick is one of those
walking sticks.
It's got kind of a polished knobon the end of it.
Mm-hmm.
That polished knob is, is theroot where the, where that
branch joins the main trunk ofthe tree.
And we take that out, we cure.
That's one of the hardest woodsin the planet.
And then you polish it.
And what a ele is, it's like ashort, it's a weapon actually.
It's like a short blackthornwalking stick with a leather
thing around the end.

(08:08):
And that polished knob, ratherthan being your walking stick,
is what you hit the guy over thehead with.
And, uh, the problem with the,the shile in Irish defense.
Is the British had guns.
Yeah.
And or, or even knives.
And swords at the very least.
Exactly.
We'll be back in just a momentwith David Wondrich talking
about his new book, ibe.
It's one of the best cocktailbooks written in 2008.
He's actually been nominated fora James Beard Award for it, and

(08:31):
we hope he gets it.

(09:02):
Hey everybody.
Welcome back.
You're listening to theRestaurant Guys, mark and
Francis of Stage left inCatherine Lombardi restaurants
in downtown New Brunswick.
David wdr is our guest today.
He's widely recognized as one ofthe world's former authorities
on cocktails and the history ofcocktails.
He is along with our buddy DaleDe Graf, one of the founders of
the Beverage Alcohol Resource.
He's worked at the Museum of theAmerican Cocktail extensively.

(09:23):
He's authored several books oncocktails.
His latest book, imbibe.
Has earned him a James Beardnomination and he joins us today
to discuss that in the state ofcocktails in general.

Mark (09:32):
David, welcome to the show.

David (09:34):
Uh, great to be here.
Thanks so much.

Francis (09:35):
So David, you're one of my favorite people to talk to
about cocktails.
You really bring a broad frameof reference.
Um, so while you, you putyourself through bartending
school while dabbling as aprofessor of comparative
literature, I understand.

David (09:46):
Well, actually I never went to bartending school.
I was an exact, I was usinghyperbole.

Francis (09:52):
I figured you'd run with me on

David (09:53):
Yeah.
That, that's pretty much it.
No, I, I, I, uh, I don't knowhow to work a cash register.
I, I was never a bartender,sadly, but, but I came to this
later in life.

Mark (10:01):
I, you know, I think I, I've had a couple bartenders who
work for me who didn't know howto work the cash register
either.
Yeah.
But one of the great dangers,they, the bartender, one of the
great dangers of being arestaurant owner.

Francis (10:10):
Well, yeah.
But, but the, but the joke thereis of course, that you were, a
professor of.
With comparative literature, youhave your PhD.
and, uh, most people become abartender while they become a
professor.

David (10:21):
Uh, no.
I, I, I did it the hard way.

Francis (10:22):
And you, and you, and you were a professor while you
became known as, uh, one ofAmerica's leading cocktail
experts.

David (10:27):
Well, you know, I was a professor for, uh, four years
and, uh, I absolutely hated thejob.
I enjoyed grad school becauseyou got, they were basically
paying me to read books andthat's, you know, that's pretty
pleasant work.
Compared to all the other oddjobs I'd had.
But once it came time toactually grading papers and, and
sitting on faculty conferences,et cetera, I started looking

(10:48):
around for something else.
And just at that moment, afriend of mine, uh, had a little
writing assignment, forEsquire's website, and he knew I
liked to make cocktails, so heasked me if I could do it.
And I said Sure.
And took a look at it and Isaid, wow, this is the most fun
job I've ever had, and I'm stilldoing it, so not so bad.
Right.

Francis (11:06):
Well now you're the wine columnist for Esquire
Magazine, right?

David (11:09):
Yes.
Spirits, cocktails, uh.
beer occasionally, wine whatev,whatever, uh, whatever they
need.

Francis (11:15):
And your first two books are Esquire Drinks and
Killer Cocktails, both excellentbooks.
Oh, thank you.
Uh, you know, it's funny, I, Ilike to collect old books and I
have a number of, uh, at homeEsquire cookbooks from this
fifties, sixties mostly.

David (11:29):
Yeah.
They, they, they used to do themregularly.

Francis (11:32):
Oh.
And they're, they're full ofwonderful advice.
I remember.
Uh, there was sort of a, youknow, the, the sixties Esquire
cookbooks had sort of a bachelorpad vibe to them, you know?
Yeah, they really did.
And, uh, one of the, one of thegreat pieces of advice, which is
actually, it's, it's good adviceand I've, I do it all the time
anyway, but it, it's suggested,um, the single man should always

(11:52):
have a bottle of champagnechilled in the refrigerator.
Just in case.
Just in case.
No, lemme lemme help you withsomething, Francis.
Just,

David (11:58):
just, just in case they fail to, uh, meet anybody nice.
And need something to consultthemselves with.

Mark (12:05):
I, I, I have news for both of you.
The married man should also havea bottle of champagne.

David (12:09):
True.
Well, I can't.
Because my wife will drink it.
Oh, I see,

Francis (12:13):
I see.
You need a secure section of therefrigerator.

David (12:16):
I do.
It has to be under lock and key.

Francis (12:18):
So, you know the thing though, that's interesting to
you and, and, uh, sort of in thefirmament of the American
cocktail, uh uh, contemporaryAlians, you have a place and
There is a generation of peoplenow, uh, I think with Dale
DeGraff and Tony Ganum mm-hmm.
And Julie Reiner and AudreySaunders and yourself and Ted
Hague, um, who have Reestablishthe cocktail in American culture

(12:42):
and, and maybe you're thehistorian of, to give us our
perspective as well as one who,who makes cocktails.
One of the, the, the thingsthese people have done is to put
the cocktail in context and itreally isn't inseparable from
the context of, of Americanhistory, isn't it?

David (12:59):
Yeah.
It's part of American life.
It always was.
Uh.
And, uh, in the periods when itwasn't, it should have been.

Speaker 6 (13:06):
Exactly.

David (13:06):
It was, it was the first cultural thing about America
that the rest of the worldwanted.
Uh, I think that's just sogreat.

Mark (13:14):
But, but how, how important is the perspective in
the history to what's happeningnow?

David (13:19):
Well, I think it's actually surprisingly important,
the history.
It's not just sort of a bunch ofold anecdotes and, and dusty
stuff, but it's also a path,it's served for the modern
generation of, uh, bartendersand drink mixers served, as a
path to follow, to learn how todo things right, because we lost

(13:43):
so much, uh, during prohibitionin the years after.
and just the right way to makecocktails, to set up a bar, to
run a bar, to, you know, all,all, all that stuff kind of got,
uh, dumbed down.
And, finally it's coming backand you go to, uh, some of the
top bars in the country, some ofthe, and they're, you know,
almost all of them are new.
you really see the, the level ofservice and dedication that it

(14:06):
takes to do this.
And that was really lacking.
I mean, there were always greatbartenders.
Uh, and but, but they kind oflack the tools, uh, to, to make
great drinks, to go along withtheir bartending.
Uh, and now you see them really.
Uh, the, the drinks are as goodas the chatter and the, and the
personality and uh, and so onand so forth.

(14:27):
I think that's just great.

Mark (14:28):
Should we just take an eraser to the seventies and, and
part of the eighties, that, thatwhole historical cocktail
section?
Yeah.
It goes back

David (14:34):
into the sixties too.

Francis (14:36):
Well, what happened?
I mean, aside from prohibition,I mean, even shortly after
prohibition, we're gonna take aquick break, but when we come
back, I wanna talk about.
What happened in sort of thedark ages of the cocktail in
America?
'cause I don't think it's assimple as, as prohibition.

David (14:49):
No, it's not.
No, I agree.
We'll be back in just a momentof

Francis (14:51):
talking with David wdr about, uh, cocktails in general
and his wonderful new book, ibe.
You can find more about it atour website, restaurant guys
radio.com.
Now, we were talking before thebreak about the dark ages of the
American cocktail.
When did that start and why didit happen?

David (15:06):
Well, it started in, uh, 1919 when prohibition was
passed, and suddenly it becameillegal to be a bartender.
Uh, some people continued towork illegally.
Others, uh, went abroad or gotfound other work, and that was a
big problem because that brokethe tradition.
And, you know, with anything,there's always a struggle
between, uh, tradition kind ofholding the line, the way to do

(15:26):
things right, and shortcuts andinnovation.
And, uh, once the, thetraditions were gone, it was all
shortcuts.
The whole 20th century wasshortcuts.
There was sour mix.
There were, uh, you know, kindof.
Premixed ingredients.
They, they simplified therecipes.
Everything would be just servedon the rocks or whatever, A

(15:46):
martini on the rocks.
I mean, how sad is that?
And that was the sixties,

Francis (15:50):
well, I'm sorry, martini.
A martini on the rocks with novermouths.
With no vermouth.
I know that's, that's called thegin on the rocks.
Yeah.

David (15:55):
If you want a glass of gin, just order a glass.
Exactly.

Francis (15:58):
But there's nothing wrong

David (15:58):
with that.

Francis (15:59):
You know what we used to say in, in the bar I used to
work in, um mm-hmm.
People used say.
Uh, what's the differencebetween a martini and a gin and
the rocks?
And the answer was 50 cents.
I mean,

David (16:09):
really, that, that's it.
So, you know, it's a bunch ofeverything that happened to, to,
uh, like American food and, and,and all that stuff in the, in
the late 20th century.
But it, that happened tococktails too.
But it's

Francis (16:20):
funny.
I mean, I remember going to awedding as a, in the 1970s and
mm-hmm.
You know, sneaking a whiskeysour at my friend Eric's bar
mitzvah and thinking.
That's gross.
I'm a kid and that's gross.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Not because of the whiskey, butbecause of the sweet stuff.
'cause the sour.
Yeah.

David (16:33):
It, it was, you know, I mean that was, that was what you
would get and, and you lookback, you read like kind of
accounts of the forties andthey'd have huge parties for 400
people and everyone would get anold fashioned.
You know, it's not so hard, youknow, but that's a reasonable
drink.

Francis (16:48):
And, you know, I wanna come back and I wanna, I wanna
talk about, on the other side ofthe news how that happened
because it's, it's, I don't knowhow you go from having a whiskey
sour, which is actually anexcellent drink made with egg
white and lemon and lime andsugar and whiskey.
Uh.
And, you know, it's, it'spalatable and it's not even a,
a, a, a, you know, a um, anunderage person's drink.

(17:10):
Mm-hmm.
And, and how someone says, oh,here, try this instead.
It's, you know, and thinks thatthat's okay and thinks that
doesn't spit it out and say,that's ridiculous.
Alright, we're gonna come backas the news.
We're gonna be talking withDavid Wonder Cheese, one of the
great cocktail historians of ourtime.
We're talking today withcocktail expert and historian
David wdr, uh, about his bookiba.

(17:30):
If you wanna find out more aboutit, maybe even order it, you can
go to our website, restaurantguys radio.com.
It's a.
Fabulous, fabulous book.
If you consider yourself atelian, you must read it by the
end of the week.
That's your assignment.
Well, thanks David.
Um, we were talking before thebreak about how there was a
tradition of great cocktails inAmerica.
The tradition of great cocktailswas born here, and Yes, uh,

(17:51):
prohibition really knocked thelegs out from under this great
tradition we had created.
But I don't understand how wegot to the point where there was
still a thirst for cocktails.
I mean, people still went outfor cocktails in happy hour in
the seventies and eighties.
I remember my sisters who were10 and 15 years older than I
would, would go out and, andhave a whiskey sour.
And I remember having a whiskeysour as a kid made with a

(18:12):
chemical sour mix.
And I'm thinking it was grossthen.
Not because I didn't likewhiskey, but because I, the, the
sour was awful.
And then, and then I rememberbeing in 1986 was when I became
a bartender and I was bartendingat a great place.
Um.
And they sort of let me havefree reign and I wound up being
their, their wine guy orderingtheir wine and, and making their
wine program go.

(18:33):
But I really was fascinated withcocktails and I got the old Mr.
Boston guide, which has sincebeen re-edited by Anthony Gilio
and is a wonderful book again.

David (18:42):
Yeah.
For the first time.
But,

Francis (18:44):
but I remember getting the Mr.
Boston guide, which was thebook, the only book behind the
bar in 1986, and trying to makea bunch of.
Sours and fizz and it wasprobably the Mr.
Boston

Mark (18:52):
book from 1972, right?

Francis (18:54):
Yeah.
Making the sours and fizzes andthe drinks outta that and trying
them and thinking, wow, that'sjust awful.
And why would anybody drinkthat?
And it wasn't just like, oh,this whiskey sour isn't as good
as that.
Whiskey sour.
It's thinking, why would anybodyever drink this?
How did we get to the pointwhere cocktails, they convinced
some of us that where cocktailswere disgusting, where cocktails

(19:15):
were disgusting?

David (19:15):
How did that happen?
Well, uh, uh, you know, it, it,it's, it's uh, like bad money
drives out good, you know, thebad recipes are cheaper to make.
Uh, you, there's less booze inthem.
There's more mixer.
The mixer is crap.
Excuse me.
And, and, and it just, I, Imean, you, you see it happening
with, with like cooking.

(19:35):
It's like, you know, you takesomething as, as beautiful as
pizza where, where you, uh, youknow, put on you, you, you make,
make some dough and.
Uh, put some fresh groundtomatoes on it and uh, you know,
a little bit of mozzarella.
That's one thing.
But then you get the mass marketpizza, like the frozen pizzas
with, uh, where everything on itis artificial and, and those
always taste bad.

(19:56):
So,

Mark (19:56):
so basically that whiskey sour to the, to the real whiskey
sour is a lot of pizza is to ahot pocket.

David (20:02):
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
Exactly.
I mean, it, it's.
It's something you always gottafight against, but I, I, I think
for three or three or threegenerations there, bartenders
didn't have the ammunition tofight against it.

Francis (20:14):
Well, you know, one of the things that you talked
about, having the tradition bethe bulwark against that.
Mm-hmm.
Having your Italian grandmotherbe at home saying, exactly, no,
you can't eat that stuff.
That's awful.
And then giving you real pizza,it gives you your idea of how to
hold onto that.
We lost our tradition to acertain extent, and I remember
when it was pointed out to methat there was such a thing and
I started working on regaining.
It was when I, mm-hmm.

(20:34):
As it was kind of a wine snoband I had my own restaurant
already at the time.
I was 27 years old and I plotmyself down at Dale Degrass Bar
at the Rainbow Room in 1993 ornine two, and we were introduced
by a mutual friend and therethis guy.
who had said to me when I'd methim out socially, that he felt
cocktails could be as complex aswine.
And I was like, ha ha.

(20:54):
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
And I thought, well, I'll thekamikaze, I'll go sit at your
little cocktail bar.
Yeah.
The man blew me away for fourhours with cocktail, for
cocktail and, and thencontextualize them.
I think one of the things thatDale does and that you do is,
and the importance of this bookis it contextualizes these
tastes.
It rebuilds that tradition, notto keep it static, but so that

(21:18):
people who wanna learn thiscraft have these fundamentals,
um, to, to continue to becreative and, and move forward.
Is that your goal?

David (21:25):
Yeah, I, think it's really, it's kind of about
pallet building.
You know, the, the bestbartenders in the, in the days
before prohibition could rely oncustomers who would know a good
drink when they tried one.

Speaker 6 (21:36):
You

David (21:36):
know, they weren't afraid of the taste of, of booze.
Uh, you know, they knew balance.
They didn't, uh, they, they knewlike what it meant to make a
good drink, and if you didn'tmake a good one, they would let
you know.
And, we totally lost that for,for generations.
Nobody had a good drink.
I mean, there were, there were afew people here and there who
could make them and would makethem for special customers.

(21:58):
But, you know, there, there wasreally no place for that in, in
the culture and, and.
that's kind of what thecontextualizing is about, is to
kinda get people to try thesedrinks in the first place.
If you tell'em a good story andshow them why that drink is
important.
Uh, and once you try'em, andonce you've, once you've built
up a little bit of a pallet, youknow the work is done, then you
know, you know you've had a gooddrink, you know that it's not

(22:21):
that hard to make one.
You know that you should expectone.
I, I, I think that's just great.
I mean, that's, that's the hardpart for me.

Mark (22:28):
Well, David, though, we talk about people just not
knowing for how many years didthat?
Grenadine stuff that we had in abottle that you made a Shirley
Temple out of for little kidswas, was a real ingredient.
I mean, I, I didn't know.
Yeah,

Francis (22:45):
no, this,

Mark (22:45):
this is something you could actually use in a real

Francis (22:47):
cocktail.

Mark (22:48):
I

Francis (22:48):
remember making a Jack Rose when we were talking about
me first becoming a bartender.
I remember making a Jack Rose,which was a drink that was in
that, cocktail book and thinkingthat's the most disgusting thing
I've ever put in my mouth.
I sure it was made with agrenadine and a sour mix just,
but now.
We make a Jack Rose.
It's on our cocktail list andit's one of our most popular
drinks.
Talk talk to us about theingredients and what happened.

David (23:07):
Well, the sour mix is, is obviously a big thing, partly
because it's, uh, artificiallyflavored.
It's pre unsweetened, which isreally bad because that means
you're never gonna be able toadd more sweet ingredients to,
to, to balance it out.
You can only add a little bitand then you get, uh, a drink
that's just disgustingly sweet.

Francis (23:26):
Well, and you have a chemical frothing agent, which
is delicious.
Yeah, exactly.

David (23:29):
Instead of using a natural egg white, which.
doesn't give you a chemicalflavor or an egg white flavor.
It just gives you creaminessand, and body.
The frothing agent just givesyou froth.
It doesn't do anything else tothe drink.
And you've got, you know, it'sjust.
I mean, it's an abysmalingredient.

Francis (23:45):
Well, and and Grenadine has gone through and

David (23:47):
Grenadine too.
Yeah.
That's, that's all high fructosecorn syrup, you know, with, with
food coloring.
Well, don't forget

Mark (23:51):
red number.
Red number five.
Exactly.
Come on.
Yeah.
Carcine and, and, and cornsyrup.

Francis (23:56):
Well, now we make our own Grenadine.
But what talk to us about theoriginal Grenadines different
from, well, or

David (24:01):
Grenadine, was a pomegranate flavored syrup,
originally, they, they had.
Well, I won't say they only hadnatural ways to do things
because the old bar books fromthe 19th century are full of,
uh, uh, scary looking shortcutsif you want it to be ruthless.
But at the good places, youknow, there were natural
products available and theywould use'em, they would use the
good products and they would usea fancy imported French syrup of

(24:25):
grenadine made from pomegranateseeds and uh, and sugar.
And, you know, maybe a littlebit of, uh.
Spice of some sort.
And uh, that would be it, itwould be a natural product.
And then you would, mix thatwith a lemon juice squeeze to
order for every drink and, uh,and some liquor that you had
aging in barrels in your ownbasement and you'd be done.

(24:46):
You know, that's not so bad.

Mark (24:48):
Uh, David, you're a historian, so you gotta be the
right person to ask thisquestion.
How do we go from a pomegranatesyrup to.
Which is Grenadine.
Yeah.
To a Grenadine that doesn't evensniff pomegranates.
How do we get from point A topoint B?
What's

Francis (25:05):
and how and how do people accept it?

David (25:06):
Yeah.
Uh, you know, that's a, that's atough question.
I mean, I, I, I think mostlywith Grenadine, it's kind of a
special case, uh, because,grenadine was usually used just
to sweeten the drink and addcolor, and they just use a
little bit to make the drinkpink.
And that's the part that, thatkept on.

Francis (25:23):
You know, it's funny, I, I, um, we made, started
making our own Grenadine abouttwo years ago and, um, some, you
know mm-hmm.
Kid came and ordered a ShirleyTemple.
Yeah.
I said, well, I don't have anyof that other Grenadine stuff.
I, I'll just use it making ourgrine.
I didn't even think about it,you know, and I did a little.
And then I tasted it.
Mm-hmm.
That's a darn good drink.
There you go.
See?
Yeah.
You make it right.

(25:44):
Of course.
I'm a, I'm a boy, so it's a RoyRogers when I drink it, right?
Yeah, of course, of course.

David (25:49):
That's funny.
Uh,

Francis (25:50):
well listen, we're gonna take a, we're gonna take a
quick break.
We're gonna come back and talkmore with David, er, about the
state of the cocktail today,about his book and, uh, and why
you should pick it up.
We have over a hundred recipesin there.
So, um, uh, we'll be back injust a moment.
You're listening to theRestaurant guys.
Mark and Francis has staged leftin Catherine Lombardi.
We're having a grand old timetalking with our friend David
wdr about his new book, imbibeFrom Absent Cocktail to the
Whiskey Smash, A Salute inStories and Drinks to Professor

(26:13):
Jerry Thomas, pioneer of theAmerican Bar.
Who's Jerry Thomas?

David (26:18):
Uh, he is the guy who wrote the First Bartender's
Guide.
I mean, that's the short answer,which is, you know, in a.
That's enough.
I mean, there had never been abartender's guide before.
He's the guy who got the art ofthe bar in between the covers of
a book.
But beyond that, he had just awild life story and he was kind
of, you know, one of the greatAmericans.
He was a sailor, a 49 er, uh, ashowbiz impresario.

(26:41):
Uh.
A bit of an artist.
He did, he did everything.
He was a fan of bare knuckleboxing and sports betting.
And he, he led a, a, a wild andsporty life.
And the,

Francis (26:51):
and, and what have you imparted of him in this book?
In Bob?

David (26:54):
Uh, I tried to capture a little bit of the, the kind of
the swagger and the fun of, of,of the life that he was involved
in.
And I, and, and I tried to, uh,get the good stories, and the,
the true ones.
In between, uh, the pages of, ofa book in between the covers of
a book, uh, to sort of bring tolife this, uh, this incredible

(27:15):
bar culture and, uh, sportyculture that they had in, in, in
the middle of the 19th century.

Mark (27:22):
But even the great bartenders today, I find they
have an exciting life outsidetheir bar job.
They've, they've done things,they've been to places.
they're worldly.
Those are the types of peoplewho, who are the most
interesting bartenders, aren'tthey?
I

David (27:37):
totally agree.
It's not just mixing drinks,that's even the smallest part of
it.
You have to be a character.
You have to be able to talk topeople from all walks of life.
You know, I've always admired agreat bartender for that, for
that social versatility, thatsense of dignity behind the bar
where you know, you're, you'rein charge, and yet at the same
time, you're hospitable.

(27:57):
you can handle people in allstates of, uh, sobriety.
Uh,

Francis (28:02):
it's, it's an unusual position in our society, and it
always has been.
Yeah.
Even when the cocktails were indecline, the bartender has an, a
unique, a unique place in thesocial mallu, you know,

David (28:13):
it's totally true.
I mean, you know, I don't wantto.
I don't want people to thinkthat, you know that, that there
were no go good bartendersbetween 19, 20 and now.
There were many of greatbartenders.
It's just

Francis (28:23):
they weren't making good cocktails.
They weren't,

David (28:25):
and they might've been making a few good cocktails, but
very few of them, you know, wereset up to make like the whole
range of great cocktails.

Francis (28:32):
Now let's, let's talk about cocktail range, because I
think there are two sorts ofcocktail bars out there right
now.
Mm-hmm.
There are cocktail bars that aredoing a mix of classic and new
cocktails.
Yeah.
Or at least are doing newcocktails with a sense of the
classic where people are usingdifferent liquors and you taste
the liquors in the cocktail.
You taste a rum cocktail, youtaste a whiskey cocktail, you
taste, you know, bitters likeOrin or herbaceous liquor

(28:55):
ingredients.
And those flavors are blendedwith other flavors.
But there are also, um.
It's called the martini bars.
Right.
Um, where basically there are alot of different colors of fruit
juice flavored with vodka.
will you talk to us about thatdivide?

David (29:11):
Yeah.
It's, it's, it kind of goes backto the, uh, the nineties, I
think.

Francis (29:16):
And first of all, do you think that's true?

David (29:17):
I, I think to a large degree it's true.
Although I think some of the,the vodka bars that's kind of.
Mutated into its own school ofmixology, which is particularly
popular on the west coast.

Francis (29:27):
And describe that school of mixology.
And

David (29:29):
that's where they're, they start with vodka, just a
neutral spirit.
And then they're bringing in allthese garden flavors and kitchen
flavors and, and kind ofcreating a new style of drink
based on modern cooking and noton traditional American
drinking.
And, uh, it's interesting.
It can be good, but, uh.

(29:49):
As you can already tell, I it.
That's not

Speaker 6 (29:51):
your school.

David (29:52):
Yeah, it's not my school.
I, I like things where you tastethe spirits and brandy and
cognac and well see the, andthings like that.

Francis (29:59):
What I was talking about was a school that does
more, doesn't even bring in thekitchen, but they bring in the
kuer apple.
Yeah.
That, that's just

David (30:06):
pathetic.

Francis (30:08):
There ladies, gentlemen, there you have from
one of the foremost cocktailexperts in the country.
That's not a

Mark (30:11):
school, it's a playground.
Yeah,

David (30:13):
exactly.
Nicely put.
You know that sort of.
That comes out of the, theeighties and the seventies.
Uh, you know, I remember Alabamaslammers and kamikazes and all
that.

Speaker 6 (30:27):
You're kind

David (30:27):
of getting that, uh, where they're now taking'em out
of the shot glass and putting itin a, in a cocktail glass.
'cause that looks sexier.

Francis (30:33):
My rule of thumb is if you have to order your martini
by color.
Yeah.
Number one, it's not a martini.
And number two.
You're in the wrong place.

David (30:41):
My rule of thumb is a martinis, gin and vermouth
period.
Yeah, that's it.
That's it.
My rule of

Francis (30:45):
thumb is like the color of a martini is clear.

David (30:47):
Yeah, exactly.
Uh, and, uh, you know,

Francis (30:50):
well, let's also talk about, uh, something that I, I
think many of our listeners maynot be aware of.
Now, these cocktails thatgenerally I find a lot of the
old cocktails wind up beingabout.
40% spirits, you know, 50%spirits.
Mm-hmm.
Sometimes more than that.
But also the classic cocktails,uh, the, the cocktail classes
that you talk about in JaredThomas's time, they, they were

(31:12):
like a three ounce cocktail,right?
Yeah.

David (31:13):
They're tiny.
You know, the, that's the, thewhole idea, uh, uh, a lot of
that kind of the, the teenyschool as you could call it,
with the apple pucker, etcetera, you get a huge glass,
full of.
Liquid.
Most of it is sour mix and icemelt and low proof liquor, and

(31:33):
there's maybe an ounce and ahalf or, or in a good place,
they'll, they'll double it of,of actual liquor in your 12
ounce martini glass.
Now, in the old days they, theymade a very concentrated drink.
It was the booze, the mixer, andonly a little bit of mixer
really.
There'd be the juice of half alemon that's like half an ounce

(31:54):
of juice.
Or you might mix half booze andhalf vermouth, but you don't mix
and a half of each.

Francis (32:00):
The idea was to season the liquor, not to just hide it.

David (32:02):
Exactly.
And, and the idea was to have aconcentrated, you know, truly
tasty drink.
it wasn't like this big thingyou were supposed to slit to sip
for a long time it was a tonic.
You were supposed to take it anddrink it pretty quickly while it
was still cold, and feel bracedand, and happy about it.

Francis (32:18):
One of the other things about the cocktail size today.
I, I see now 12 and sometimes 14ounce martini glasses and I, oh
God.
They make me crazy.
Well, I'll tell you somethingthat's interesting.
When they first came out, Iliked them.
Mm-hmm.
And I still think that, thatthey're sort of a stylish
statement.
If you put.
A four and a half or five ouncecocktail in a 12 ounce martini

(32:40):
glass.
It's kind of cool.

David (32:42):
Well, yeah, you're not gonna spill for one thing.
Right.

Francis (32:44):
Well that was, that was sort of the

Mark (32:45):
same kind of feel that you have when you have an oversized
wine.
Yeah, it was the size.

Francis (32:49):
Well, what's happened is, people fill them all the
way, and first of all, I think,well, if you have a real drink,
who the heck wants 12 ounces ata time?
And secondly.
By the time you're halfwaythrough with that thing, it's
warm.

David (33:01):
Yeah.
Yeah.
You can't, uh, you can't drinka, like a real martini or a
vodka martini or whatever inthat size and, uh, and expect
to, to remain unmarked by theexperience.
Right.
If you do, you're gonna be

Mark (33:12):
messy.

David (33:13):
Yeah.
It's, it's instant intoxicationin a glass and Yeah.
And it gets warm and disgustinghalfway through, and it's not,
you know, it's not economicalfor, an establishment either you
could sell one of those for apremium price because it's big,
but you could sell two smallercocktails for, uh, almost twice
as much, you know.
What do you,

Francis (33:31):
what do you think in today's day and age is the right
size of a cocktail glass for acocktail that is partially, you
know, juice or mixer andpartially, uh, spirits served
up.

David (33:41):
I look for like a five ounce glass.

Francis (33:43):
Mm-hmm.
You know, it's funny, we, wehave a.
We have a six and a half ouncecocktail glass.
That'll work fine.
Yeah.
And we serve five ounces of, ofcocktail in it.
And what we know is that justunder four ounces of mix shaken.
With ice.
Yeah.
Yields us a perfect five ouncecocktail.
Yeah, that's perfect.
And for an all liquor cocktail,uh, we generally put in, uh,

(34:07):
serve about four and a halfounces in, or four ounces in a
five ounce class.
Yeah.
But do you really want more thanfour ounces of, martini, which
is three ounces of, Of gin.

David (34:16):
I certainly don't, you know, that's'cause I'm old.

Mark (34:19):
Yeah.
Well I'll tell you the thingthat, that I can't stand when I
go to, to one of these placesmm-hmm.
Is when they fill up my drink somuch that I gotta do the lean
over the bar and take the firstlittle slurp off the top.
Yeah.
Where I'm getting cocktail in mylap.
You got a nine ounce glass andyou filled it up to the tippy
top.
But if you had given me sevenand a half ounce drink, I'd have
been happier.
Yeah.
And less messy.

David (34:38):
Yeah.
It, it's more elegant.
Uh, you don't need all the extrabooze, frankly.
You know, and I'm,

Mark (34:44):
and I'm just, it's just gonna end up in my lap anyway,
so.
Yes.
Exactly.

David (34:46):
Yeah.
it's pointless.
I don't, I don't even actuallylike the, uh, the conical
martini glass very much.
I like the, the champagne coopbecause it doesn't spill.

Francis (34:54):
Well, we use the champagne coop for, for juice
cocktails, and we use the upmartini glass, the conical
martini glass for, cocktailsthat are basically all liquor.
Yeah.
if you feel that's not all theway, why do you like the, the
coop better?
I mean, the coop is moretraditional, right?

David (35:08):
Well, it's just because, uh, if you have a slightly
larger, uh, con conical glass,then it's not a problem.
But, uh, it's because of the,the spilling factor.
You know?
I like, I like the, the.
The way the coop, the sidessuddenly go up vertically, and
so stuff doesn't come sloshingout nearly so easily.
Plus

Mark (35:26):
I'm drinking.
I'm Exactly, and, and you know,if

David (35:29):
I'm in a bar, I'm talking, I'm waving my arms
around.
I'm generally behaving, uh,behaving in a, gregarious and
slightly insane manner.
And, uh, you know,

Speaker 6 (35:37):
I've seen you,

David (35:38):
I've seen, I've been there.
It's a frightening thing.
But what can you do?

Francis (35:43):
Talk to us, talk to us about an issue that, um, one of
the things that I also rememberthat Dale introduced to me many
years ago that I see all thetime, I actually saw Tony Agan
do it on Iron Chef.
Iron Chef had some mixologistsrecently on a recent show.
I remember that.
Yeah.
A mixologist assigned to each,each chef and, uh, Tony used the
old, it's become classic now,the flamed orange peel garnish.

(36:05):
On top of a cocktail.
Yeah.
Uh, and I remember the firsttime Dale did that.
I thought it was so cool.
First of all, pyromaniac, I loveanything you heard about
Exactly.
But, but talk to us abouttraditional garnishes and ex and
extraneous garnishes.

David (36:16):
Well, traditionally the garnish was a part of the drink.
it was part of the drink and,uh, it was, uh, there like, like
a lemon peel is there to get aslick of lemon oil on the
surface of the drink so that, itwill, uh, be the first thing
that hits your nose.
And, uh, it will, give you thiskind of pleasant, appetizing
sensation.
And it wasn't there.
Just so you like.

(36:37):
You, you, you didn't just cut acurl of lemon peel and throw it
in.
You had to get the oil on thesurface of the drink.
that, that, that was important.
You know, it's, it's integral tothe drink.
Uh, so then, you know, the, thecherry, maybe less so, but uh,
that was there to give you alittle treat.
Uh, there they was, there was along tradition of putting
berries and things like that ina, in a fancy drink just to,

(36:58):
kind of give you a, a littlesomething in addition to the
liquid.
But, uh, they were, you know,they were all these fresh
berries.
Uh, the original Marino cherrieswere simply, uh, sour.
Cherries, marinated in Marino,Laur,

Francis (37:13):
you know, we actually have in our, in our bar now we
have sour cherries marinated inMarino.
Laur.
It's a way to put up localcherries.
Yeah.
And it, and it adds to thedrink.
And I found that using Marinocherries in a couple of drinks
that we've invented, evenmuddling them in the bottom.
Mm-hmm.
Those are really, I an importantpart of the drink.
They're not just there forlooks.
Yeah.
I think,

Mark (37:28):
I think the basic thing that, that we're all agreeing
with is.
The garnish isn't just there tobe a pretty little umbrella on
the side of a, a cocktail.
No, no.
It's part of the cocktail andshould be thought of that way.
Yeah.
It's an ingredient.

David (37:39):
You have to think of it as an ingredient.
How is it gonna work with theother things?
I mean, some of my favoritegarnishes are, are, are to,
like, for instance, just drip alittle bit of, uh, bitters on
top of a, like an all liquordrink or like a

Francis (37:50):
or a piece Go sour or something.
Yeah, exactly.
Where you

David (37:52):
drip it on and then they kind of make weird patterns as
they slowly soak in.
And it looks cool.
It gives you some visualinterest, but it also adds to
the, the flavor of the drink.

Mark (38:01):
Well, I'll, I'll be honest, some of my favorite
garnishes are still those littleumbrellas, but that's, that's a
whole separate issue.
Yeah.
Well, this's, the whole tikidrink thing, which add

David (38:09):
adds the element of fun

Francis (38:10):
and Mark's got a collection of those little
umbrellas at home.
We don't, we don't talk about itvery much.
Alright, so I wanna, I wannagive people a little more of a
teaser into your book.
Okay.
I mean, we've got, we've got abunch of great recipes in there.
Um.
But you also, you talk about theevolution of some drinks that we
know, like the Manhattan, uh, orthe margarita.
Can you give us the, just the,the history of one of those
drinks and how it came to, well,lemme talk about

David (38:30):
the Margarita quickly.
'cause that's a fun one.
There's always been this bigmystery about who invented the
margarita, right.
And it's, there are variousstories.
It was, uh, so, uh, missMargarita sames or sos, uh, in,
uh, in Mexico, or it was abartender here or there.
But the funny thing about it is,uh, in the 19th century.
There was a class of drink thatyou made by taking liquor and

(38:52):
sweetening it with, uh, anorange liqueur or a, a different
liqueur and adding some citrusjuice to it.
And that was called a daisy.
And you would top that off witha little, a little splash of
seltzer.
Now, daisy in Spanish ismargarita, and a margarita is
basically a tequila daisywithout the seltzer.

(39:12):
And it goes back to, you know,mid 19th century bartending.

Speaker 6 (39:16):
And if you

David (39:17):
look at old Spanish drink books, they have categories of,
of daisies in there that say,uh, that are called margaritas.
It's very funny,

Mark (39:26):
but what, this is why the history is so important to what
we're doing.
Mm-hmm.
Because these things arerelated.
They are interrelated and there,there are relationships between
these ingredients that the testof time has proven work.
Yeah.
And bringing these thingstogether and having bring them
in in historical context reallyshows you all of those things.

(39:48):
Uh,

David (39:49):
uh, yeah, it, it helps you to kind of see the
connections between the drinks,which helps you to remember the
drinks.
For one thing.
It helps you to invent newdrinks because you've got like
frameworks that you can use andit's that you can use.
It's not just randomcombinations of ingredients.
You know, what works with what,and this, these always work
together and there's got,there's usually a reason, uh,

(40:09):
it's, it's, you know, it'suseful.
It's not just academic knowledgeand also it gives you something
to tell your customer.

Francis (40:18):
Yeah, it's true about a drink.
But you know what, there people,people love the

David (40:21):
stories.

Francis (40:22):
You know, the funny thing about it with food, and
especially with cocktails, it'slike when you, when you, when
people buy wine, they wanna knowwhere it came from.
They wanna know what the weatherwas like.
They wanna know what the soil islike.
They wanna know the story of thefamily that owns the vineyard.
And with cocktails, there is asimilar history.
You know, eating is a veryseminal thing.
It's part of history that witheating and drinking that we take
into us and it's part of ourculture and it, and it really

(40:43):
should be celebrated and imbibeis a, a great contribution to
that.
David, and I wanna thank you forwriting it and so well, uh,

David (40:49):
thank you.
Thank you for reading it.
It's much appreciated.
And.
Thank you for, for having me onthe show.
Well,

Mark (40:54):
it was great David.

Francis (40:55):
It's a ton of fun to talk to you.
I'm sure that we'll see youaround a cocktail bar.
Uh, I certainly looking,

David (40:59):
I'm looking forward to it

Francis (41:00):
in the hear you very soon.
Uh, David, thanks.
Thanks very much David.
David one, his book is ibe.
You can find out more about itat our website.
There's a forward by our friendDell DeGraff.
Uh, and pick it up.
You are assigned to read it bynext week you're listening to
the restaurant Guys Heyeverybody.

(41:44):
Welcome back.
It's the restaurant guys, markand Francis.
Uh, I could talk to him for aweek A you probably have talked
to him for a week over, I think,or all the time you spoke to
him.
If I've, I, if you, if you meetDavid out anywhere, I've met him
making cocktails and he can makecocktails and talk at the same
time.
Uh, and we've had drinks,together at a few events.
He's, he's, he's an encyclopediaof knowledge and he's fun.

(42:05):
He's fun.

Mark (42:05):
Well, we were talking earlier in the show about the
great bartenders and, and one ofthe things in teaching young men
and women to be bartenders that,that Francis and I always have
to do is we have to teach peopleto engage the people that, that
are ordering the drinks whilethey're making the drinks.
Because what happens is, withoutfail somebody who's new at this,

(42:26):
somebody who's, who's not doneit for a long time, goes to the
end of the bar, will take adrink order and be very pleasant
while they take the drink order.
Then be so focused on making thedrink that, that we're talking
about that they've, that they'velost connection to the customer.

Francis (42:41):
Yeah.
Bartending is an art that Ithink bartending.
The non cocktail part of makingof bartending never really died.
Mm-hmm.
I mean, I think that's true.
There were always greatbartenders.
That's true.
Um, there was a guy named Johnwho was a bartender at J August,
which is now defunct, who Ithought was a great bartender,
and I said, you know, I wannahave a barge like John's because

(43:02):
of the social dynamic that hecreated in his bar.
Now, was he making classiccocktails and doing great
cocktails?
No, but I'll tell you what hedid.
No, and there were alwaysbartenders that knew about
scotch and knew their products,and they weren't making
cocktails with them that wereany, any ways decent.
And I remember that, you know,uh, John, I can say his name.
John Seiler was a, was a greatbartender.

(43:23):
I remember I sat down at his baras a very young man when I first
started bartending.
Years before I met Dale DeGraffand John Seiler explained to me
single malt scotch.
Mm-hmm.
And my mouth was open.
I thought, oh my, I gotta knowabout this stuff.

Mark (43:35):
I remember working with a guy way back when a guy's name
was Mooney and Mooney could talkto anybody about anything.
He knew he could recall everysporting event that had ever
been.
He was a historian.
He knew.
He knew a little bit abouteverything.
He could talk to anybody, markand produce some new piece of

(43:55):
information.
Mark and I

Francis (43:55):
used to work behind the bar, uh, once in a while when we
worked at another place.
And, uh, people would come in,they, they'd wanna talk about
the ballet.
Mark would be like, hold on asecond, lemme get Francis.
People wanna talk aboutfootball.
I'd be like, you wait righthere.
Hold on a second.
The other guy will be over in asecond.
Anyway, uh, so it's kinda like,kinda like a radio show.
I hope you've enjoyed the hourwith the restaurant guys.
We certainly have.
I'm Francis Shot.

Mark (44:12):
And I'm Mark Pascal.

Francis (44:13):
We are the restaurant guys.
1450 WCTC.
Time is 12 noon.

All Episodes

David Wondrich on the Past, Present & Future of the Cocktail V

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}David Wondrich on the Past, Present & Future of the Cocktail *V*