Deborah Keane, No-Kill Caviar Queen

Episode Transcript
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the-restaurant-guys_2_04- (00:11):
Hello everybody and welcome.
You are listening to theRestaurant Guys.
I'm Mark Pascal and I'm herewith Francis Shot.
Together we own stage left inCatherine Lombardi, restaurants
in New Brunswick, New Jersey.
We're here to bring you theinside track on food, wine, and
the finer things in life.
Hello, mark.
Hey Francis.
How are you?
I'm well.
I'm back in the restaurant,guys.
How, how bad could I be?
Sorry, I ran through that alittle quickly'cause I'm so
excited to talk about Caviar.

(00:32):
Okay.
Oh yeah.
Deborah Keen is gonna be joiningus later.
She is known as the CaviarQueen, been dubbed the Caviar
Queen by the media.
We had her on the show.
20 years ago.
She's tremendous.
And, uh, we can't wait to talkto her in a moment, absolutely.
Let's, uh, let's chat a littlefirst before we, before we
invite her to join us.
Sure.
Uh, well, one of the things Iwanna talk to you about is, is
this time of year, I love thetime of year when I.

(00:53):
The things I've planted arestarting to come up.
Right.
Okay.
I I, I just, there's somethingabout it.
It's, it's exhilarating.
Uh, well, and for Mark, as Irecall, I just wanna interrupt.
This is the time when, betweenwhen the things start to come up
and before the squirrels harvestthem beneath them.
So that's a perfect, reallysweet time for you, as I recall.
Well, it's funny because as Iget older, you know, and I know

(01:14):
a lot of people love to plantflowers and plants and trees, I.
I discovered I only like toplant things that I eat.
That's interesting.
I don't, I I have no desire toplant flowers or shrubs or, and
watch them grow.
I, I, I just want to plantshives and zucchini blossoms and
it is not surprising, but it'sinteresting.

(01:38):
Well, I know you plant a lot of,lot of, lot of pretty things as
but you also plant Yeah.
Sage and, and all sorts ofthings and come Well, so I plant
on a roof, come up.
Uh, urban, suburban.
Mm-hmm.
I plant on a roof.
You plant in a backyard.
Yeah.
I have less problem withsquirrels because they can't get
outta the elevator.
Yeah.
It's really, honestly, it's therabbit and the deer that more
than the squirrels these days.
The, the deer almost never getup on my fourth story roof in

(02:00):
Jersey City.
The reindeer, you only getreindeer.
That's, that's you get up atChristmas time and they're only
at Christmas time.
Yeah, no.
So, uh, yeah, no, I have in, soI have a, I'm blessed.
I have a fairly large roof.
deck and all around it is.
Mm-hmm.
I have planters and, um, I havehoneysuckle and some, I have
some stuff for shade up there.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, but you know, there'snothing that grows in the ground
that comes up.
Well, you need shade more than Ido too.

(02:20):
Yeah.
Well, the, the thing is growing,everything is purposeful if
you're growing on a roof mm-hmm.
In, in boxes.
So I have one section that's allkitchen garden and what I plant
there mostly just because beingin the restaurant business, I'm
not home to eat the tomatoeswhen the tomatoes become mm-hmm.
Ripe.
But I plant.
Herbs and I mean all differentherbs.

(02:41):
And frankly, if they come, ifthe chives come in, I get a ton
of chives.
I just bring'em into therestaurant.
Yep.
I mean, most of my produce comesto the restaurant, but when I
have a party, it is sweet tomake the mojitos and the, and
the mint.
Juli, I, you know what?
I don't plant, I used to plant alot more stuff.
Mm-hmm.
And I used to plant.
A lot bigger of each of thethings mm-hmm.
That I planted and now I plantthe things I'm gonna use.

(03:02):
Right?
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
A couple of tomato plants isplenty if, unless again, the
squirrels, the deer, the rabbitsget to them before I do.
Yeah.
a little bit of basil, you know,enough basil for when I harvest
it, I can make a pot of, ofgravy with it.
That's, that's all I need.
I don't need to plant a lot ofstuff.
See, for me, the other thingabout the herbs is I.
Whenever I cook, the herbs arethere.
Mm-hmm.
Like the tomatoes are like,exactly.

(03:23):
Okay.
Almost ready.
Oh, I took off, it's gone.
This.
Whereas if I have cilantro andparsley and mint and thyme and
rosemary and chives, I neverhave cilantro.
Yeah.
I know you don't like it, butit's really cool to be cooking
and say, I don't wanna confuseit with the parsley first thing,
but that's true.
Yeah.
You don't wanna be surprised,but it's really cool to be
cooking and I, I suggest thatyou plant herbs in your garden.

(03:46):
Mm-hmm.
Because if you're cooking, you'dbe like, oh, let's go get some
thyme.
And you go, you go out and yousnip a little bit of time and
you snip a little marum and yousnip a little parsley that
really adds to your cooking.
Again, what I, what's happenedto me is I'm now just planting
in, in planters on my deck.
Mm.
I, I stopped trying to plant inthe yard.
'cause Yeah.
'cause the animals took, took.
Wiped it away.
Yeah.
Yeah.
and I You don't have to plant alot of stuff No.

(04:08):
To get a lot of flavor into yourfood.
Yeah, a hundred percent.
Anyway, uh, we're gonna be backin just a moment with Deborah
Keane I'm talking about farmraised caviar and humane methods
of raising caviar that arepretty interesting and pretty
unique.
And no, nobody knows more aboutit than she does, So stick with
us.
We'll be back in just a momentwith, Deborah Keen and you can
always find out more about allthis
stuff@restaurantguyspodcast.com.

(04:29):
Yeah.

the-restaurant-guys_ (04:31):
Everybody.
Welcome back.
Our guest today is Debra Keen,making a return appearance on
the show.
Debra is one of the guests whowas on our show when we were
still on terrestrial radio andW-C-T-C-M, and that was when
Farmed American Caviar wasmaking its debut and she was at
the cutting edge.
Then she is called the CaviarQueen by the media because she.
Still, still on the cutting edgetoday.
She has some patents that arevery important and make some

(04:54):
wonderful caviar in California,and we're super happy to have
her on the show today.
Deborah Keene, welcome to theshow.

Deborah (05:00):
you.
Thanks for having me.
Good to see you again or hearyou again.
And see you.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Been a long time.

Deborah (05:06):
Has, has,

Yeah.

Deborah (05:08):
we're still here.

Well, we're,

Deborah (05:09):
I love it.

the-restaurant-guys_2_04 (05:10):
we're, we are all still here.
Uh, let's start this show outreally simple basics.
What is caviar?
What can we call caviar?

Deborah (05:18):
Hmm.
Great question and thank you.

the-restaurant-guys_2_04-24 (05:20):
The Knowall caviar person.
Let's go.

Deborah (05:23):
kind of back to caviar 1 0 1, which I love.
Um, caviar could only be calledcaviar if it's from a sturgeon,
and there are 27 species ofsturgeon around the world, but
there's only about a handful,about a six or seven of them
right now that are, um, actuallypackaged and sold on the market.

the-restaurant-guys_2_04-24- (05:42):
So there's six or seven caviar.
From the United States or thesix or seven Caviar's worldwide.

Deborah (05:49):
Worldwide that people are eating.
You've got your Kaga hybrid now,which is a Huso Darkes shaky
breed is golden Stai, which isRussian, et cetera.
You have your Asay Pena Berry,which is your Siberian.
You have your Asay Pena transwhite sturgeon.
If you hack back your paddlefish, sometimes you see a little
starlet out there.
You don't see it that much, andthat's about it.

(06:10):
there are, there aren't thatmany.
We, I love the beautiful AssiePence of Perus, which was the
Iranian, I know that you guysremember that not a lot of
people do, but that hasn't beenin the country for many, many
years.
The who, so, who's so, which isthe beluga is completely, on
the, critically endangeredspecies.
There's 2 million of them left.
They are farming it now.

(06:31):
Um, you know, my friends got thefingerlings in from, Russia, in
two th 2004, and in 2005 itbecame banned.
So he couldn't kill them, sellthem.
Process them, milk them.
He couldn't do anything withthem.
He just had to keep'em alive.
And uh, so now he is able tospawn a few of'em, but I think

(06:54):
it's$800 an ounce.
And he's lucky he gets a, youknow, few kilos a year.
Um, it.

wanna point out.
I just wanna point out somethingthat's very interesting in that
often when we manage theenvironment, like when you are
dealing with the environment,you, you have an ecosystem that
is gonna respond in a way, fivegenerations, hence from the
choice you make in a way thatyou don't understand often.
I.
When we try to preservesomething, wind up making it

(07:23):
more likely to go extinct if wedo it poorly.
And sometimes when we, if we cancreate a commercial market for
eating something can work topreserve it on the planet.
And what you just said was, YYes.
We should have w harvestingwild, uh, beluga caviar and
Iranian caviar because it wasgoing extinct.
But when your friend got in thef, the fingerlings if he could

(07:45):
then farm them and create ademand for eating that caviar
and a sustainable way ofsupplying them, that's a way to
make sure there are more ofthose species on.
Same thing happened with theAmerican bison.
Let's save the American bisonfrom extinction was they allowed
controlled,

Deborah (08:01):
Farming.

of American bison.
Mm-hmm.
And farming of American andAmerican bison.
No longer endangered'causethere's a market for the meat.
And that's just so sad to methat they couldn't make the
distinction between taking itoutta the wild bad farming good.

Deborah (08:16):
They did in the United States.
So in 2000, I mean 1906.
White sturgeon was banned forcommercial fishing.
That's quite some time ago.
So as a result, the whitesturgeon is still on the
threatened species list, but notthe critically endangered
species.
It is not under investigation.
Every other one of those speciesthat I have named other than

(08:37):
hack back and paddle fish, whichwas still the only two wild
caves that are legal on theplanet, every other one of those
species is on the criticalendangered list for
investigation.

But can still be farmed.

Deborah (08:51):
Can be farmed to this so far?
Yes.

So explain something to me.
Okay.
I see sturgeon on menus.
People are still eatingsturgeon.
What sturgeon are they eatingand should

Deborah (09:04):
Hmm.
Should they be when it comes tosturgeon meat or are you saying
caviar?

the-restaurant-guys_2_ (09:08):
sturgeon meat?
I'm talking about

Deborah (09:10):
Yeah, surgery meat is all farmed, so there's no
commercial fishing or nocommercial market for, um, any
wild caviar.
So one of the things that'sreally interesting for me as I
fell into the caviar world, Icame in in 2004 when all wild
caviar was still legal on theplanet, including beluga.

(09:31):
Beluga became illegal in 2005.
Then in 2007, I started my.
Company because I got this phonecall from a gentleman by the
name of Jacque.
When we started and, and, andthat kind of catapulted me into
doing my own thing.
But at that time, the only thingI really knew was farm Sturgeon.

(09:54):
There were only six farms on theplanet raising sturgeon and only
two producing caviar, both ofwhich were in California.
Both of which people don'trealize is we are the
birthplace.
California's the birthplace forfarm caviar on the planet.
And so when we started backthen, um.
You know, the farming, you, you,you go through until four years

(10:18):
and, and I'm, I'm sorry to saythis, but we only need a few
good men.
In the sturgeon world, it's allabout the women.
And so all the males go to themarket and so all the sturgeon
meat you see in your restaurantsis farm caviar on the market.
It is not wild caviar and evenback in the day when I was

(10:38):
there, we did not have any uh,wild sturgeon on the market as
far as meat is concerned.

so what happened?
What went wrong?
Why did the the Sturgeonpopulation collapse?
Yeah.
Why did it get so threatened inthe sea?
Why did it get so threatened inthe first place?

Deborah (10:53):
Overfishing pollution, um, greed and, and and sturgeon
to get caviar the size of athree millimeter egg.
And because this is my breakfasttoday, egg that

you have nice

Deborah (11:06):
size, um, to get an egg this size, it is 10 years.
They are six feet long, ahundred pounds, and you're, so
when you realize before they canstart spawning in, in the wild,
if the water is colder, it's 15years, it's much longer.
So if you

Wow.

Deborah (11:24):
imagine.
It's taking them 15 years togrow and, because they're
brackish, they live in the oceanand they go upstream to drop
their eggs.
Well, it was really easy in theCaspian and the more river and
the Black Sea and, and differentparts of the world to just to
cast their GNAs, catch thesturgeon as they go up.

(11:44):
'cause they know they had eggs.
And then the babies.
So it was easily depleted.
Uh, we controlled ours back inthe early 19 hundreds.
That did not happen until ces,which is a convention on
international trade forthreatened and endangered
species.
they are the ones that createdin 2011, the all wild C would

(12:05):
was illegal.
Um, and that was around theworld.
Russia and different countrieswere not regulating their
species.
Um, and, and the, the threatenedand endangered species for that
matter.
So the, uh, un on, um, animalsstepped in, which is ascites
organization, and they steppedin, they said that.

So what's happening now in, in the
CASP unit?
Is there, is populationreturning?
Is pollution still too big aproblem?
What?
What's happening?

Deborah (12:36):
Great question.
Well, it depends on the country,right?
You've got five Tristan,Kazakhstan, Iran, Russia, all
around the Caspian.
Um, and some countries are doingbetter than others.
I understand Iran has done muchbetter than, uh, some of the
other countries.
However, Russia, on the otherhand, what it did is the minute

(12:58):
you make something, uh, legal,it has so much more value.
So the poaching got really,really, really excessive.
And um, I mean, I think youprobably remember when, when we
first met, when they started theban and really started to clamp
down on the sturgeon.
There were so many.

(13:19):
Poachers being arrested, makingcaviar outta their garage in,
out in the, in Richmond.
You know, there was a ton ofthat happening and it was always
in the newspaper.
You don't see it as much, youdon't hear it as much because
there's a lot more caviar on themarket.
There's different types of Caryon the market and it's, it
doesn't have its street value asmuch, but it, it.

(13:42):
It's gotten so bad.
As you know, I've been all overthe world making caviar from,
uh, Abu Dhabi to Germany andChina made carry all over the
world.
I was in Italy, I won't saywhere, and there were, uh, a
handful of Eastern Europeangentlemen making farmed legal
caviar and putting it into masonjars to sell on the black

(14:04):
market.

Oh, to pretend like it was, was, uh,
illegal.

Deborah (14:09):
Exactly, exactly.
So basically there was, youknow, when something's really
hard to get and it is a stapleand a sign of, you know, it's a
staple in, in, in Russia for,for their diet.
Um, but at the same time as asign of prestige that can go for

(14:30):
quite a bit of money on themarket.
So.

Wow.
amazing.
That is amazing.
The counterfeits worth more thanthe real

Deborah (14:35):
Isn't that incredible

the-restaurant-guys_2_04-24-2 (14:36):
a re there's a related story that
Mark, I need you to tell.
We've told that on the airbefore, but it's super germane
about the, the chef.
You went talking about Chileansea bass and you're like, why is
this still on your menu?
Was it swordfish or was it?
Oh yeah, it was Chilean seabass.
Yeah.

Deborah (14:47):
Yeah.

And I went to a restaurant, this is
20 years ago when they had juststarted issuing the warning when
people, sea, sea, when we fifirst started, realized that
Chilean sea bass was beingoverfished

Deborah (14:57):
Mm-hmm.

and it was time to, to shut that
down.
And I was in a restaurant.
And I said, I, I see Chilean seabass here on your menu to the
chef, to the chef.
You know, aren't you, aren't youworried about, know, serving
Chilean sea bass?
He goes, yeah, the world isgonna be fished outta this stuff
in five years.
So I figure I gotta buy as muchof I can right now.

(15:18):
now, I'm never gonna be able tohave it again.

Deborah (15:21):
How much I.

Yeah.
amazing.
Alright, so, alright.
So I just wanna go back a littlefurther in history'cause we are
totally geeks on this stuff andyou know, you read about caviar
being part of, in Russianliterature, it's been part of
Russian cuisine for so long andone of those rare things
throughout Europe, around the soI remember w watching the, the
Jackie O movie where AristotleOnassis is on this yacht, and,

(15:45):
and he has like a, a monstrousbowl that probably has four
pounds of caviar in it, and heoffers it to his guests.
Um, so it's been, it's been astaple in, in literature and
culture for a long time.
Russia not known for managingits resources for a hundred
years.
How did they ke, how did theykeep it from becoming a crisis,

(16:05):
like the world with caviarthrough the eighties and
nineties?
I mean, it really only became acrisis in the nineties and
aughts.

Deborah (16:13):
you know, they have quite a large population of
different species in Russia fromthe, uh, Siberian as well as the
um, ASI Pensa golden study,which is the Russian, et cetera.
So I think.
They substituted.
the depletions were much lowerthan, um, they led on and they

(16:35):
were putting what wasn't caviarin a lot of jars and selling
caviar.
made boin, which is a fish, andit, you know, it's pennies on
the dollar.
Confederate, Russian.

Mm-hmm.

Deborah (16:46):
I, I once received a dyed white fish.
Dyed, like with this squid ink.
Whitefish is from the GreatLakes and it's just, you know,
kind of like bleak road, justwhite, it's yellow.
And I had to say, thanks for thedyed whitefish.
They'll send me some hacklebackthinking that they would be able
to get it past me not knowing.
And the average consumerdoesn't, sometimes, you know,

(17:08):
they don't, they buy what theybuy and they, they don't know.

I also think that there probably,
there was less of a, a, anappreciation.
Um, it was very, a very narrowgroup of people in the United
States.
Anyway, it like Carrie are, andyou know what, maybe, and I
think if our listeners know,we'd love to hear from you the
emails that theguys@restaurantguyspodcast.com,
the, maybe when the Soviet Unionwas still together, they were
able to regulate it and youknow, so much kind of.

(17:33):
Flew apart at the end of theSoviet Union.
Maybe that's what happened, whenwe first started in the
business, when in the eightieswhen I was still bartending,
the, there was great caviar.
We used to get caviar petrosianin New York.
There was also a littlerestaurant called Calco, which
served all sorts of great fishrows and the farmed
alternatives.
We're terrible.
And then you came along when wefirst met you, because it was

(17:54):
the first farmed caviar where wesaid, oh, hey, this is actually
delicious.
That, that was really a, a thingyou couldn't buy farmed caviar.
It, it just wasn't, it wasn'tworth eaten.
It it, you know, I'd, I'd ratherhave smoked trout MOUs.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Spread that on my bread.
And that's, that'd be

Deborah (18:08):
Yeah.

So what, so what happened, what,
what happened to start, why didFarm Caviar become acceptable
and what's happened over thelast 20 years that since we've

Deborah (18:16):
Yeah, that's that's great.
And, and, and let me tell you,that was fun because I was going
around with the very first farmcaviar.
I never forget, it was a bigdeal.
I'm in, I think Rick Moonen inLas Vegas, and he pulled in all
these other restaurants and allthese chefs from all over, and
it must have been 12 people inthis restaurant.

(18:40):
And there was a chef there thattried it first.
And I always taste everythingnow.
My background is varied andit's, I was a nurse then I was
in publishing and now I'm acaviar master, right?
But there, there I am and Ijust, I grew up in Maine.
I have a really strong palate.
Uh, my summers in Maine, in, inBoston, and I have a very strong

(19:01):
palate for seafood and I have avery sensitive palate.
So I tasted all the caviarbefore I brought it anywhere,
but this time I didn't.
The caviar got shipped to mydistributor.
They picked me up at theairport.
They drove me right to therestaurant.
He tasted it before I did, andhe said, this caviar tastes like
the inside of my fish tank.
And it did.

no.
Oh, boy.

Deborah (19:23):
It did.
I have 12 chefs, like literallyseven different restaurants.
All these chefs.
It's like, and I tasted it andit was, it, it was, it was the
worst caviar when I firststarted in the industry was the
worst or a hundred percentright.
It was flabby.
It was mushy.
It tasted like catfish.
It was just a bottom feeder.
They didn't know.
And from that day on, I startedworking with, uh, a, the farmer

(19:47):
and the PhDs on the farm saying,listen, if I have to sell this.
I want to eat it.
And if I won't serve it to myfamily and my 2-year-old
daughter, I will not serve it orpresent it to any chefs.
And that's when I startedlearning how to perfect the art
of sustainable caviotproduction,

did they, what did they do
differently that started to makeit taste the.

Deborah (20:08):
It goes back to I lived in Paris for five for four years
and it goes back to that Frenchmentality.
If it doesn't start well, it'snot going to end well no matter
what you do to it.
No matter what kind of salt Iuse, no matter how much I rinse
it, no matter how much you know,how I play with it in the
dishes, if it doesn't start, ifyou don't have the best water

(20:28):
quality.
And feed.
So it really came down to theenvironment of the sturgeon a
hundred percent.
And we started perfecting theart of sustainable, farming.

take, how many years does it take to
keep years of feed, years ofcleaning, years of maintaining a
sturgeon before you can harvestcaviar from a sturgeon.

Deborah (20:47):
you.

I just had a vision of somebody
scrubbing a

Deborah (20:50):
Thank you, thank you so much for, for asking this
question because it is anabsolute labor of love.
It is eight to 10 years minimumto get a fish, six feet long,
over a hundred pounds in lessthan 10% of that is row.

(21:11):
So at the end of those 10 years,I might get.
Seven pounds of caviar and everysingle egg is taken off by hand.

So I just wanna, you know, people
think why is caviar soexpensive?
It's not just rarity.
Right?
Even if you could, so we, if wecan farm all the caviar we want
in the world, it's.
It's, you imagine like, okay,hey listen, think of a grape
farmer had to wait 10 years.
Yeah.
Okay.
Which they, which a lot of themdo, except they only got one
pound of, grapes or 10 pounds ofgrapes each year.

(21:40):
And you have to feed fish.
You don't have to feed vines tothe same.
Mm-hmm.
I mean, they need to eat everyday all the time.
And so when you talk about theinvestment that goes in and if
anything goes wrong in that 10year period,

Deborah (21:50):
All that.

Yeah.

Deborah (21:51):
If the oxygen goes, there's a disease.
You lost him all.

Well, and with, with a farmer, we say
the amazing thing is it's anannual experiment, right?
If you make a mistake this year,you've lost the whole harvest.
make one mistake, you've lostone year's worth of production.
You can make one mistake in yearnine lost nine years worth of
investment into a fish know, youthrow the barbecue throw or into
a school of fish, not throw aschool of

Deborah (22:16):
Well, Francis, if we had this conversation 20 years
ago.
But Yeah.
And then once you get in, youcan't get out, but yes.
Yeah.
Now that you put it that way.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And people think, oh yeah, let'sget into the caviar business,
and then they realize they'rehome.
No.
Yeah.
It's a lot.

so I, I like being in the caviar
business, by the way.
Call my side of it.
I call you.
The caviar comes.
I sell it to somebody.
It's the best.

Deborah (22:42):
that's exactly where to be, mark.

It's the same thing of like, people
have asked Mark and I, Hey, doyou want to come to Burgundy and
work the harvest?
I'm like, no freaking way.
Get in the, I wanna sit on theporch and then have lunch
afterwards and celebrate the

Deborah (22:55):
Right.

But I do not wanna work the harvest,
and I do not wanna get in yourdamn fish tank.
I'll be honest with you.
I just like having the fish onthis side.

Deborah (23:01):
Yeah.

What?
Actually, it's funny that youbring that up, Francis.
And, and I think on the otherside we should talk about chefs
getting in the tank with thefish and picking their fish.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And the other thing we're gonnatalk about on the other side is
we're gonna, we're gonna telleverybody how to judge good
caviar from bad and, and frommediocre.
what what makes it special and,uh, different from the lump fish
row you get in thenon-refrigerated aisle of the

(23:22):
supermarket.
We'll be back in just a moment.
You can always find out moreabout
us@restaurantguyspodcast.com.
All right, Deborah, so you'vestarted this, this Mad Men
creation that you've done where,where chefs get in the tank and
choose their own sturgeon fromwhich they're gonna harvest

Deborah (23:39):
Yes.

You gotta tell us

Deborah (23:42):
That's so much fun.
So it really started with, my,you know, of, have a handful of
my chefs that I've worked withso, so many years and they're
all my Michelin restaurants.
And, um, I was working with,Dominique Kran in her team, it
was Kevin Finch and when theygot their third star and.

(24:04):
They would call me and they'dsay, oh, Deb, this caviar is a
little darker.
This one's lighter, this one'sgreen, this one's that.
And different chefs would do thesame.
I go, you know what guys?
You need to come with me.
Let's get in the tanks.
Do you have any time?
Can you get to the farm?
And you know, do you have atent?
Let's just pop a tent.
Let's stay here and let's justhang out.
Let's get in my ponds.

(24:24):
Get in the tanks.
And, and I need you to getcloser to the source.
So it really came out ofunderstanding and educating the
chefs to understand, you know,I'm a blonde, you're a brunette,
there's a redhead, you know,it's mother nature and I'll try
to get your profile, your flavorprofile, the species that you
prefer, your, your color youprefer, but it's mother nature.

(24:45):
You can't control and just breedonly the blondes or the lighter
eggs and just the dark eggs.
And there's some chefs that onlywant jet black eggs.
So we tried to separate them,but when I found that I got them
closer to the fish, got'em inthe tanks, taught them how to
biopsy the fish, taste thecaviar right outta the eggs.

(25:06):
Now listen, we are going 10years, gentlemen.
Um, before I can harvest, I'mgoing to taste every single egg
to make sure it, the texture isperfect.
It hasn't gotten a trigger.
She hasn't started to reabsorbher eggs.
that the size is minimum ofthree millimeters, which is.
Expected on the market and theflavor is perfect that she's

(25:27):
purged enough.
We've taken her off a feed, weput her in, you know, 10,000
gallons a minute, you know,water flow to clean and to purge
any off flavors that might comefrom either a pond or a tank.
If it's not perfect, I don'ttake it.
So I make a very artisanalcaviar.
That's why my products are very,very consistent.

(25:49):
A lot of Sturgeon farms are justthat.
They are only a sturgeon farm.
They do bulk and they sell it.
They have so many fish they'regonna harvest that year.
They harvest'em no matter whatthey taste like, no matter how
big they are at what stage theyare in their cycle.
That is not me.
So I got them in the tanks andit just, it became a thing
because the minute they got incould pick the caviar, they

(26:12):
could taste it, they can seewhat caviar's like.
It's like tasting the grapebefore you make the wine.
Like, oh, this, what's thisgoing to turn out to be like?
Because caviar doesn't tastelike anything out of.
A sturgeon, it doesn't have anyflavor.
It's not until the salt is addedand it's cured and it starts its
curing process.
It starts to have, there's alittle nuance like kinda raw
potato and different, um, umamiflavors that it'll have, but

(26:36):
every farm is different.
And so we got the chefs in thetanks and they were able to pick
their fish, taste it out of thelive fish, tag that fish with a
color or a number.
And, and when it became.
Time that they could process andthe fish were ready to go and I
knew that the caviar wasperfect, I would let them know
we'd harvest the eggs and thenthey would process it.

(26:59):
So every single egg that wasserved in the restaurant and
plumed course is a perfectexample in Saratoga.
every single one of their tinswith caviar has been processed
by their team and is alreadydelegated and labeled for their
restaurant in my caviar vault.

That's pretty amazing.
but that brings me to a, there'san increased awareness now, I
think in American dining.
It's not just a French thing,it's not just a special occasion
thing.
The, the advent of the caviarbump, is, has brought a lot of
people view that as a, a, aluxury thing that they'll do
once in a while, where I thinkit was a, a smaller segment of
the population that wouldindulge in caviar.
15 years ago.

(27:36):
Yeah.
Everybody's eating caviar now.
No question about it.
Everybody's eating caviar now.
Congratulations to you.
But I think one thing, well, andthat's, and it's great, but, and
I also think people are a littlemore discerning now.
A lot of people are like, oh,caviar.
Like, oh, champagne.
It's just the category is fineand they don't discern

Deborah (27:52):
Good.

which is, which is fine as long as
they drink champagne.
Good.
As long as they eat caviar good.
But there are people now whowanna know, well, Francis and
Mark, what in a good caviarCaviar.
Is it texture?
Is it flavor?
What flavor?
You know, Francis is touchingthe little bump on his hand
while he's, while he's talkingabout caviar.
He's, he's doing, he's doingthis.
I'm remembering right here.
This is where the caviar goes.

(28:13):
So talk to us about if you're areally sophisticated diner or
you wanna become a reallysophisticated diner.
people don't eat caviar everyday.
They don't do caviar sidebyside, but what, describe what
people should be looking for ina good caviar or may be
different kinds of really goodcaviar.
What's a mark of quality?
What's just different?
Talk to just about the, thelisteners who are gonna have
some caviar sometime year, whatthey should be looking for.

Deborah (28:35):
thank you for that, and I'm excited to be able to share.
I always said with availability.
Would come.
Accessibility and affordability.
So you're seeing right now it'strending.
Um, it used to be just forholidays, but it, it's very,
very similar to the wine worldin, in, in Napa Valley with.

(28:55):
the availability, you're goingto see it everywhere.
And wine and champagne was onlycelebratory.
Now people are drinking it everysingle day.
At least I am as I'm in my drybar.
Um, but carrots the same way.
And it started to go hand inhand because of the
availability.
Now remember, I started, therewere only six.
Farms on the planet raisingsturgeon to making caviar.

(29:17):
And that's in California.
So California's the birth placefor farm caviar in, in the
world.
Now.
There are two thousands farmsaround the world.
There's still only a handful ofus under 10 here in the United
States, so so you're seeingmore.
white label, there's a ton ofbranding.
Oh, caviar companies, Carycompanies.
They're not caviar companies.
What they are, or they'remiddleman distributors, they're

(29:40):
Cary distributors.
They're not farmers, they're notproducers.
So for the consumer, getting areliable source is absolutely
critical.
Um, buying it from a reliablesource in a gourmet market that
actually.
Is labeling it with properlabels on the bottom that says
it's um, best Buy date.

(30:02):
Every single label should have acountry of origin.
It is absolutely legal.
You have to have it.
You'll notice 90% of the caveatcompanies out there will not.
Have country of origin in that,and that's really important, um,
for compliance and so on.
On our label, we'll have, um,the species, which I think is

(30:23):
really important, and if it islocal and who is disturbing it
and whether or not it's comingdirectly from the farm.
When you have it from the farmto you.
Or to your store, to you or therestaurant to you.
There's only one person betweenyou and the source.
When you're getting it from amiddleman or a white label, that
usually is going from a bulkbuyer to a distributor, to that

(30:46):
white label than to you.
You're got, you have at leasttwo to three more steps.
To get to you.
And carriers still extremelyperishable with the exception of
the no kill.
Um, that's coming out soon andyou still, at best if it's not
pasteurized or has borax or anykind of preservative, which is
completely illegal in the UnitedStates right now.

(31:07):
The Borax is, you only have fiveweeks to six weeks max.
And so when it's sitting in aplastic bubble on a shelf, you
really need to pay attention to,the, shelf life and the date it
was packed, and where it'spacked and where it's coming
from.

(31:27):
If it's coming from out of thecountry, then it's spending
months.
Getting to you.
Um, so for me it's looking for adomestic distributor, which is
critical, or a, producer, uh,which is the aspens, the
transfer times white sturgeon,your hack back, and your
paddlefish, which are the onlytwo wild caves that are legal on

(31:47):
the planet, that are coming fromthe.
Pacific, Tennessee Rivers, andif you're looking at a beautiful
Russian oak sector that peopleare looking for, you want it to
be fresh and not be sitting on ashelf.
And, and, and for us, forexample, we don't pre-pack
anything.
If you order online, the day itgoes out is the day.
It is packed for you.
So you have the longest shelflife, and that's the hard part

(32:10):
to, with the middleman for allof those white label companies
out there.
You just don't know who'spacking it before it's getting
shipped to you, and most whitelabel companies do not pack it
themselves.

And we should point out that, that
to find, uh, Deborah's caviarhere, you can go to California
caviar.com and

Deborah (32:26):
right.

from her.
So you've talked to us about howto buy caviar, but I wanna talk
more specifically about like,okay, I'm in a restaurant,
brings me over one or twodifferent kinds of caviar.
When I put that caviar in mymouth, what am I looking to
experience?
And what makes you go?
Wow.
And what makes you go, oh,almost,

Deborah (32:44):
great.

what?

Deborah (32:46):
Thank you, Francis, for bringing me back.
Okay.
It's no different than buyingdiamonds.
Color cut, clarity and carrotweight.
I was in the jewelry businessfor a minute.
So if you're going to do thosefive, those four categories for
diamonds, you do the same thingfor our black diamonds, which is
caviar.
So you're looking for the color.
It depends if you're Russian,black is the best.
If you, if you see the gold,they think it's flawed.

(33:10):
So generally speaking, theydon't care for that.
It is really rare to have alight caviar, so that tends to
go for more money.
I find it to be a little bitmore delicate, a little bit more
elegant.
I find that the darker the.
Egg.
The thicker the skin, theheavier the protein, the bigger
the flavor profile in general iskind of my baseline just for

(33:31):
making caviar for so many years.
Um, so you're looking for alittle bit fuller caviar on
that.
You're looking for your size.
You want three millimeters andup.
and that's hard to figure out,um, you know, a, three
millimeters.
But, um, you want it, you know,bigger than this, the, the tip
of a pen.
Um, and the bigger the better inthe caviar world for sure.

(33:54):
So that is definitely, you know,for your, your, your carrot
weight, if you will.
And then you're looking forclarity.
You want a really clean flavor.
Now I can blindly tell you whatfarm each caviar is from almost
like a master.
So, yeah, because if, when I goto every farm.
I'm sourcing from any placearound the world from my golden

(34:15):
Studies that you can't raise inCalifornia'cause it's not
indigenous.
I will drink the water,including China that the fish
are swimming in.
I don't always swallow, I oftenspit it out, but it's like the
wine maker eating the dirt andtasting how much lime is in the,
in the soil.
Exactly.
So I'll do the same.

(34:36):
And when you start honing yourpalate with the farm, it's.
Self, whether it's a pond,whether it's a tank, whether the
raceways flow through, you know,or recer.
You can taste recer, you cantaste tank, you can taste mud.
You can taste that algae becauseit's always a bloom and there's
highest or whatever they'reusing.
So you can hone that.

(34:57):
So there's a clarity.
You want it to be clean and youwant what Drew Barrymore said,
calls.
Sea butter.
You want a little, you wannataste that little salt up front.
Then you're gonna taste thatcreaminess, that butter this,
and then you're going to endwith a little bit of that fresh
sea salt finish.
If you can't put white sturgeonon chocolate like a sea salt,

(35:21):
that is not the right whitesturgeon.
That's my level, but I have avery clean.
I have artisanal water quality.
I don't have flow through, Idon't have any research.
So I have super, super cleancaviar and that's really
important to me and my clientsand that's what we're looking
for.
Um, and then the other colorcut, clarity.

(35:41):
I.
The carrot, wait.
you are looking for equal shape.
So you know the diamonds haveall different shapes.
You want to look at it when youput a bump on your hand and they
said, okay, you're doing thebump and the bumps a trend and
blah, blah, blah.
It's not trending.
It is trending for theirpurposes'cause it's cool.
But we do it.

(36:01):
This is how we buy caviar.
We would put it on our hand andwe'd move it around and you'd
look, are these eggs broken?
No.
Are they all the same size?
Yes.
Are they all the same color?
Yes, because legally I have toput every single egg from one
fish in a jar that's labeled forthat fish, so I can trace it

(36:23):
back to that fish.
Back to that tank.
So I, if I have lots ofdifferent colors in here, that
means I have multiple differentfish.
And legally you're not supposedto do that because it's an
endangered species.
And if I have a recall or I haveto prove, I will tell you every
single egg that you get in yourjar, when I send it to you, I

(36:44):
will be able to trace back towhen I harvested it yeah, you
add more of those white labelsin between, you are losing all
of that.

Hold on.
A, I was waiting for you to eatit.
I was, you know, you put thebump on your hand.
I was waiting

Deborah (36:57):
I thought of that afterwards.
I'm like, oh, I'll take a break.

I, I have to say, I was thinking
the whole time of the analogybetween wine tasting and spirits
tasting, which Mark, mark and Iare a little more expert in that
area.
And then when you put it on yourhand and you're pushing it
around on your, with the thingthere, I was thinking of Walter
White and crystal meth and thatthe whole time while you're, it
looked like you had it on yourthumb there and your hand there
and it, it's what I wasthinking.

Deborah (37:20):
I bumps.

You're doing good.
You're a good cook.
Um, anyway, so, so, um, no.
So, mark, what do you, as an, asan amateur, as the restaurant
guy, when you are buying caviar,when you are eating caviar, what
is it that you look for that yousay, oh, that, that is what I'm
looking for.
Well, I like it to have a littlesnap, a little pop to it.
Right.
When it doesn't, when it has nosnap or no pop, it's mushy.

(37:47):
I, I don't, I don't.
enjoyment from caviar that'slike that.
Yeah.
I need a little bit of that, butbut it still has to have that
brininess that flavor of theocean.
That, I guess now I'll call itsea butter.
that's part of the experiencefor me.
What about you?
when Deborah had it on her, handand was kind of pushing it
around with a spoon, I look forwhen I see a mediocre caviar or

(38:08):
a caviar that's too old, you'llsee it's a little sticky between
the eggs.
The eggs aren't like floatingaround in a, in a liquid and are
individually articulated, soit'll be broken eggs or it's a
little sticky and they sticktogether a little bit.
I know, I know it's gonna bemushy when I put it in my mouth.
And I think it's the same aswith wines.
What to what you said.
When the flavors arearticulated, like I see the sea

(38:30):
and I I get the fish of it andit's, it's clean and bright.
To me, that is what makes a, agreat caviar.
A great, but now you're servingpressed caviar.
You gotta tell us what pressedcaviar is.
Oh, yeah.

Deborah (38:40):
That's fun.
so this is a great transitionand you're right when you start,
when the caviar starts to breakdown, you might get more brine
and more flavor, pro profile,but it'll start to break down
the eggs.
You'll release its oils, it'llget wet and flabby, we call it.
And then that's not you.
Everybody wants that pop thatmouth feel.
So back in the day when you had.

(39:03):
Fresh caviar.
That was wild.
It had that huge pop.
'cause it was, ovulated was atthe perfect state and now you're
taking it farmed differentstages early to late.
It's kind of like premature andsometimes too past it's prime,
and you're harvesting over aperiod of time, and so you're
getting different textures andit's lot more inconsistent.

(39:24):
So you're a hundred percentright.
So when you go through caviarproduction and some caviar is
flabby and falls apart or breaksdown, we then turn that into
pressed caviar.
And back in the day you wouldtake beluga rug, et cetera,
those three species, put it in acheese cloth and uh, bri it and
just get rid of all the waterand dehydrate it.

(39:47):
And then it would be.
Sliced, and it would look a lotlike, um, uh, shoe polish, black
shoe polish, just very shinyand, and just kind of solid.
And you would, they would sliceit and put it on, take it on the
boats while they were fishingand put it on bread, and that's
what they would eat.
So when I worked with JacquePen, he wanted to, he said,

(40:09):
because Beluga and, and Saru, etcetera, were all.
Starting to be regulated andbanned from coming into the
country.
They didn't have any more PIOSinia and he wanted to create
the first, uh, domestic PIOsinia.
The press caviar and it's enspress caviar.
We do for him.
We did it back in 2007, 2008.

(40:29):
It was hard for us to producebecause we had never had it,
'cause it had been illegal,hadn't been imported since the
seventies.
But he knew what it was like andwe just kept making it and
failing and making him failingand sent it to him.
And he finally said, that's it,you did it.
And we sent him and he wouldplay with it.
And so we finally perfected it.
And um, it was a great storythat, you know, I've been making

(40:50):
his caviar.
Since 2008, I believe, and I'vefinished it three times.
Three times in what, what'sthat?
17 years and every time I finishit, he gets on the phone and
calls California.
Kevin, hello this.
Do you know who I.

(41:15):
Amanda, you know, and everyonefreaking out.
And then, so they hit me thephone and he is like, de that
C's a little sticky.
It's a little dry, it's a littlesticky.
I'm like, ah, Shaq, I did it.
I, you know, I, I, you right, Ifinished it.
Martha wasn't there.
Martha always does it perfectly.
And hi, I think I, you know, Ithought I did it right.
He's like, yeah, it's juststicky.

(41:36):
He's like, Deborah, you do notdo this.
Well, you should not be doingthis.
I stop doing it every time I didit.
He goes, this is not for you.
You should not be doing this.
Just let, like, okay.
And so, um, you know, it is, itis a very, very, very fine line.
But you're starting with thebroken eggs.
We're blending the hacklebackpaddlefish and the, and, and

(41:59):
the, um, white sturgeon andturning it into a press caviar.

let's talk about eating caviar
champagne or vodka.

Deborah (42:10):
Okay, love.
But it's changed.
So we were talking a little bitabout caviar and flavor
profiles.
When you're dealing with thepaddle fish, which is a wild
saru type, very fish forward,very anchovy, stronger, uh,
flavor.
You can do the vodkas and theyin, in some of the spirits and

(42:31):
it works well.
All the really, really fine.
Caviar's that are farmed rightnow, that are a little bit more
delicate, like the whitesturgeon, the, um, some of the
Russian et cetera, is veryanxious, very lipid fatty, but
it can be very creamy.
the vodka can overpower some ofthe lighter eggs that don't have
that viscosity that you'relooking for.

(42:51):
So the rule is.
Wild caviar.
Great.
With vodka and spirits stronger,big profile.
Caviar's like kaluka hybrid canhold up to some of the spirits.
The rest are perfect withchampagne, but if you're eating
caviar, you eat the caviarfirst, then take the wine in
champagne.
After.

(43:12):
If you're doing spirits, youstart with the spirit and you
chase the caviar, you reverseit.
And if you're at home doing it,play with it.
It's a night and day experience.
Even if you're doing it withtequila.
And I've got tequila partners,At Alida and they have caviar
that pairs perfectly with all oftheir, uh, different, uh, lines

(43:33):
of tequila.
But if you try it caviar thantequila versus tequila than
caviar, it's a very differentexperience.

So let me ask, besides vodka, what
spirits do you have with caviar?

Deborah (43:45):
Everything.
There isn't anything I haven'tdone with ca caviar, to be
honest with you.
Um, you know, bourbons,whiskeys, rice, um, tequila gin.
Gin is shockingly good and yet,but it's the, it's some that.
The flowers and the floralnotes.
It's really, really interesting.

(44:06):
'cause it's so hard to paircaviar with, you know, certain
floral wines in white wine.
You would think it's great.
No caviar's great with cabernet,white sturgeon, cabernet all day
long.
The earthier the better.
I don't know why.
It's just this, there's just anearth tone and it is at all.
I work with Chat to Monte.
We have partners, partnershipswith them, and Opus one.

(44:28):
It is the best and it's almost ano-brainer.
You can't go wrong doing a whitesturgeon royal, like a, like a,
you know, a dark white sturgeonwith a cab.
You can't go wrong.

Well, we have a cabernet dinner dinner
coming up, so there's gonna be

Deborah (44:42):
Will you, lemme know.
I'll send you some caviar.
It'll be really fun.
And other Cs don't work with theCabernets, but, and people are
like, really?
And, and I've been in every,everybody's winery and everybody
around the country They, theysit there and the winemaker's
like, what do you know, lady?
I'm like, all right.
I know caviar.
I know nothing about wine.
But she might try.

(45:02):
And then they go back and theycome back and they go back, get
some more, and they go back.
And then it keeps getting alittle darker.
A little darker.
And you know, the cabs.
And the champagnes are great.
You know, the whites are alittle bit trickier.
Pinots are tough, but don't, itis just this earthy minerality
that kind of works with thoseearth tones in the white
sturgeon.
It's just really in, in kaga.

(45:24):
It's really fun sake.
Beautiful beers, a pilsner sakesare beautiful with caviar.
Um, little bit more forgiving iskind of that cross between wine
and spirit.
It's almost a safer bet.
It's like having that perfectred wine and cheese, and when it
happens, it all comes together.
Is just so good.

I thought that Mark knew me better
than he did and the very factthat he thinks that we're gonna
wait until the next wine dinnerto try Caviar and Cabernet.
I mean, in 15 minutes we aregonna try caviar and Cabernet.
Who do you think your, we havepartners have.
You gotta have the right caviar.
So we have the, we have hercaviar in the kitchen.
We're restaurant.
I don't, we have the whitesturgeon though, do we?
Oh, no we don't.

(46:02):
I don't.
We do next time.
Alright.
Right.
We're gonna get some white

Deborah (46:04):
No, I hope you do.
I think that's, I hope you do.
If not, lemme fix that rightaway for you.

You got it to FedEx right now.
That's, that's send it, send it.
So, you know, one, one finalquestion on the serving of
caviar, and then we're gonnatalk about No kill caviar, which
is a very cool thing that youhave some patents on, I believe.
you've pioneered in any event,there's a, an old kitchen rule
that you never touch caviar witha metal utensil.
So we have with these mother ofpearl spoons with which we touch

(46:30):
caviar.
Is that true?
And if it's true, why?

Deborah (46:34):
So I will start with the king of.
The culinary world, Jacque Pappen.
He says to me, Deborah, theCary's never gone enough on the
spoon to make it make adifference.
And he's right.
So if you use it, use whateverit's, you want.
It is kind of the rule becauseC's never sitting on a spoon.
And this is a hundred percenttrue as he pulls out a stainless

(46:57):
steel spoon and just, you know,we just like a big tablespoon
and off you go.
and he's a hundred percentright, but the rule of.
Thumb is this, when it's comingto serving utensils, it caviar
will absolutely absorb.
The flavor, uh, uh, the metalalloys from any stainless or a
tin, we have that happen to ustoo.

(47:18):
In the caviar industry, all theCary used to be in tins, and now
they're coming in, in, in, inmore plastics.
And, and it's changing a littlebit, uh, for us, how we make
caviar.
But, um, it is preserving thecaviar a little bit longer
because you're not, it's notabsorbing those flavors.
So caviar will take on theflavor.

(47:39):
Of the vessel if it's sittingthere too long.
This is true, especially withthe salt it kind of conducts.
So we do recommend Pearl that iscompletely neutral.
Gold glass bamboo will work to aPolish bamboo, um, in bone as
well.
but you know, the silvers andthe stainlesses we still shy

(48:04):
away from,

noticed it the most with silver.
Honestly.
Yeah.
Even more than stainless.
I noticed.
Yeah, I

Deborah (48:09):
Absolutely.

the

Deborah (48:10):
will.
It will, it will make adifference.

Alright, good to know.
So you gotta tell us about nokill caviar.
'cause this is, this is a thing.
There are people out there who,who want their no kill caviar.
Tell us.
I love that.
Tell us what you're doing.

Deborah (48:23):
Yeah.
And so we'll have to, you'llhave to work with me on the
whole No.
Kill.
I, I, when I, I, I had the, um.
Exclusive North Americandistribution in 2014.
And I talked to everybody and itwas a living caviar and so on
and so forth.
And then NPR one of, I can'tremember, it was the Huffington
Post, NPR, one of'em called itNo Kill.

(48:44):
And then every single press hascalled it that ever since.
So we're working, we're workingon that.
But let me tell you a little bitabout it.
So there's this beautiful womanby the name of, professor Dr.
Angela Kohler.
She's out of Germany.
She's perfected the art ofsustainable caviar production
where you massage a fish to getthe eggs.
Now there's some controversy'cause back in the day there

(49:05):
were many other, uh, countriesdoing it, but they were doing it
by c-section.
They would kind open the fish,pull out the eggs, put it back,
and they had about a 30%, um,survival rate, Back in the day
it was 70% fatality rate.
I.
It was terrible.
And so there was a lot ofcontroversy around it.
So when they think of this, thisis what they think of.

(49:26):
'cause that's what they weretrying to do to preserve the
species.
Um, and she discovered the artof releasing the eggs and
massaging the fish to get theeggs as if it was in Mother
Nature.
if she would feel the rocks onher belly, say, okay, it's safe
to drop my eggs.
It's inducing that same type of,um, reaction.
So it's a natural, process Soit's that type of process that

(49:50):
she mastered.
And, um, as a result, it's agame changer.
And what we didn't realize, notonly are you.
After 10 years not having tosacrifice the fish.
Now we would sell the noaccords.
We would sell those skins.
We would sell the meat, we'dsell, we would process the eggs,
the sacks.
We would sell every part of thefish'cause it's been 10 years.

(50:13):
But now think of it, you cansave the fish, she can go back,
she can continue to um, live.
And then two years later for thewhite sturgeon, she'll produce.
More eggs.
What she, what we didn't realizeis that she has a higher yield
in, larger eggs.
So each year they're getting alittle bit bigger and a little
bit better.

(50:33):
And I have fish, in, other farmsthat are 25 years old and the
eggs are, you know, fourmillimeters.
They look like beluga eggs.
it's a.

amazing.

Deborah (50:43):
Game changer.
mark, you were mentioning, whenthey go upstream in that pop and
you're looking for that pop,it's because those fish are
ovulating, they're ready to dropthe eggs.
It's in its perfect state.
So when I do it, and it's atotally different process.
It's a ton of work, but.
When I do it, I'm taking thefish in their perfect state.

(51:03):
So you are going to get all thatCaspian pop.
So everyone's gotten used toflabby caviar.
Now they're gonna go, whoa, lookat this pop.
So we're gonna go back to theway it was where your Bobby
would be eating caviar.
Yeah.

That's great.
And how do consumers find the,the caviar produced with this

Deborah (51:18):
So the only place, so we have the master patent for no
kill caviar in the UnitedStates.
We will be launching it thisfall, and we're in the process
of, uh, processing it now.
We mastered it last year.
It took me.
Four and a half years to get itthrough the FDA and uh, we
earned that one.
And so last year was our betatest and working in mastering

(51:41):
it, and we figured it out.
And when I make my caviar, now Itouch the eggs every step of the
way.
Now I never touch the eggs.
It's a chemistry.
Temperature.
It's just completelytemperature, timing, rinsing,
you know, with, you know,without chemicals obviously, and
it's, again, salt only and theshelf life is doubled.

(52:02):
You, you can,

Wow.

Deborah (52:04):
take it from your refrigerator.
You can take it from the store,throw it in your car, throw it
in your bag, leave it in yourcar for two hours, put it on
your shelf, on your counter.
Then put it in the fridge, openand close it for over a month,
two months, and it'll neverlose.
Its pop.
It's in its perfect state.
Salt only ga.
You can freeze it.

(52:25):
You can take it out.
Salt only.
Game changer.
Game changer for chefs for theloss.
Game changer for consumers forsafety.
Game changer for, retailersbecause they don't have the
shelf life that is going to begone in five weeks and.

So know where your New Jersey
launch party's

Deborah (52:45):
No game changer.

with

Deborah (52:48):
Hundred percent.

with

Deborah (52:49):
Hundred percent.

Alright, so pay attention to the
restaurant guys.
Sign up.
Go to go to stage left.com andsign up for the mailing list if
you wanna be sure to hear aboutthis.
And if you're a restaurant, guysregular, if you become a premium
subscriber, now you will get aspecial discount code to have a
little VIP hour with De and thelaunch in America of this game
changer of caviar.
I cannot wait.
Yeah, it's pretty exciting.

(53:11):
It's, I gotta tell you, I had, Ihad read about it.
I'm a little more excited

Deborah (53:14):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's a game.
It's a game changer, and it's aninvestment, right?
And you want to feel like you'regetting what you want, and it
just feels really, really goodto me.
Yeah.
It's, it's a long time comingand she's worked really hard,
but, um, very excited about it.

Francis (53:29):
Deborah, we had you on the show 20 years ago a little
to talk about the beginning ofFarm Caviar.
It is appropriate to have you onagain now.
It's cool, new stuff again,we're only through the life of
one and a half sturgeons in allthat 15 years, but it's uh,
it's, uh, it's been a sturgeon'slifetime and it's super great to
have you on the

Deborah (53:48):
Yeah.
Thank you for having me.
It was such a pleasure and Ireally love that full circle.
Nice to know.
we're still, you know, making itthrough all these crazy times
we've been having since Covid.

Thanks Deborah.
You can find out more aboutDeborah Kean in California,
caviarcompany@californiacaviar.com, or
you can go to restaurant guyspodcast.com, get on her mailing
list, become a regular memberand come meet her in the fall.
We'll be back in just a moment.
You can find out more about usand everything
else@restaurantguyspodcast.com.

I love shows where I learn stuff.
Oh my God, I love, I love showswhere I learn stuff.
Uh, it's one of the reasons Ienjoy this show so much because.
She taught me stuff today.
Well, and we did the research.
Okay.
We paid somebody to do theresearch, We have people for
that.
Uh, no, we have people who helpus do the research and then we
actually read the books and readthe articles.

(54:52):
And I knew about the No Killcaviar.
I didn't know about the extendedshelf life.
Yeah.
The larger egg size, the returnof pop of wild, caviar.
I'm thrilled.
Yep.
We booked a dinner while on acall, but that's, that's what we
do though.
That's the, the excuse that wehave.
Even if it gives us the excuseto call the primary person.
it's part of what makes it funfor us, right?
Yeah.
Is that, I'm expanding myhorizons.

(55:13):
I'm.
I'm calling people who I thinkare interesting.
Yeah.
And I, and I'm asking, but I,the caviar thing is, is, is
bumping.
Yeah.
Ah, I get it.
I get it.
so I, I don't know if you'veseen it yet.
So our director of operations,Julie, has gotten a.
Mother of Pearl Spoon tattooedon her hand right where the bump

(55:34):
goes so that people would putcaviar on her hand, right on,
the mother of Pearl, spoon It'sthe right person for the job.
The right person to work for us,I'll tell you that much.
Um, no, that she reallyfantastic.
Super interesting.
And she's a big caviar fan.
Oh yeah.
More so than I am.
More so than we are.
Absolutely.
It's, it's a.
It's weird that we foundsomebody who, who's more into

(55:54):
caviar than we are.
When she was talking about like,well, you could use bamboo, you
could use feather pearl.
I'm like, use your finger.
You put your finger in there.
Why not?
That's, that's awesome.
I once saw somebody use a pieceof K Basa and I thought that was
not the No, that was not theright disagree vessel.
I disagree.
I gave that entire, I'm also nota big fan.
There's a big, uh, caviar andfried chicken craze going
around.
Uhhuh not a fan.

(56:15):
Yeah.
Don't, I don't say, it's not mything.
Not my thing.
It's not my thing.
for, but I'm excited to trycaviar and, and Cabernet that's
happening.
Yeah.
And in a few minutes, by theway, I don't know if you know
that.
Well, we gotta get the whitespecific.
Yes, you gotta get the white,white search white.
Alright, well, we'll, we'll waitfor that one.
So, I wanna end today's podcastwith a quote it may be
misattributed, but uh, in mymind, James Beard said, I can

(56:37):
hear him now, but I think it wasJames Beard, or it might have
been Calvin Trillin.
I don't know.
But one of those guys said, um,the caviar.
Is the essence of the sea.
Mm-hmm.
And truffles are the essence ofthe land.
Yes.
I've heard that before.
And those are the two perfectfoods.
And so we'll leave you there.
Hope you've enjoyed the timewith the restaurant guys.

(56:58):
We all learned a little bittoday, and I hope you're all
coming to the launch party ofthe No Kill Caviar this
September.
For sure.
I'm Francis Shot.
And I'm Mark Pascal.
We are the restaurant guys, andas always, you can find out
more@restaurantguyspodcast.com.

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