Chris Korst Explains Rent-To-Own Advocacy, CFPB Risks, and the Future of RTO

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What does it take to protect an entire industry while reshaping how lawmakers, regulators, and consumers understand Rent-To-Own?

In this episode of The RTO Show Legends Series, Peter Shau sits down with Chris Korst, former Rent-A-Center executive and one of the key legal architects behind modern Rent-To-Own legislation in America. 

Chris shares the behind-the-scenes story of how the Rent-To-Own industry went from operating in a legal gray area to securing regulatory frameworks in 45 states. This conversation explores consumer protection laws, lease versus credit debates, advocacy strategy, state-by-state legislative wins, and the future of alternative financing models like Buy Now Pay Later and virtual leasing.

What You’ll Learn:

• How Rent-To-Own legislation evolved across the United States during the 1980s and 1990s
• Why transparency and customer protection became the foundation of modern RTO agreements
•  The legal difference between Rent-To-Own and traditional consumer credit
•  How APRO, Rent-A-Center, and state Rental Dealer Associations worked together to defend the industry
•  What current RTO operators should understand about CFPB oversight, virtual leasing, and Buy Now Pay Later trends

Episode Highlights:

• 02:35 – How Chris Korst entered the Rent-To-Own industry in 1985
•  06:00 – The strategy behind expanding RTO legislation from 4 states to 45 states
•  09:14 – Why consumer protection laws became critical for Rent-To-Own advocacy
•  11:05 – The legal battles over lease agreements versus credit transactions
•  18:00 – How negative media coverage and bad operators affected the industry’s reputation
•  23:34 – The federal legislative fight against Truth in Lending classification
•  31:11 – How compliance seminars and standardized rental agreements helped shape RTO operations
•  40:40 – Chris Korst’s perspective on Buy Now Pay Later, Progressive Leasing, and alternative financing models
•  50:00 – The leadership and collaboration lessons today’s RTO operators should remember

Meet the Guest:

Chris Korst is a former Chief Administrative Officer, Executive Vice President of Operations, and General Counsel at Rent-A-Center. He played a central role in shaping Rent-To-Own legislation across the United States and received both the APRO President’s Award and APRO Lifetime Achievement Award for his contributions to the industry. 

Tools, Frameworks, or Strategies Mentioned:

• State-by-state Rent-To-Own legislative strategy
•  Consumer protection based RTO regulatory frameworks
•  Model Rent-To-Own legislation templates
•  APRO advocacy and Rental Dealer Association collaboration
•  Lease versus credit transaction legal positioning
•  Compliance seminars and operational standards training
•  FTC versus CFPB regulatory positioning for Rent-To-Own businesses
•  Alternative financing and virtual leasing risk analysis

Closing Insight:

“Collaboration, customer care, and transparency are what got us here.”

Chris Korst’s story is a reminder that the Rent-To-Own industry was built through advocacy, persistence, and a commitment to protecting both businesses and consumers. As new financing models continue to emerge, the lessons from the early days of RTO legislation still matter today.

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Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Hi, I'm Pete Chao.
You may know me from the Art GoShow podcast, but today, I'm
doing something a little bitdifferent.
April and Wild Brands havelaunched a special project to
bring the story of our industryto life like never before.
They've asked me to sit downwith some of the true legends
we're to own, capture theirstories, their impact, and their
vision for the future.
And now I get to share thoseconversations with you.

(00:23):
Also we did somethinggroundbreaking though.
A new book.
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and active, written by Aprilstudios called Fitman, and Wild
Red Studio Fired Craft.
The book explores the grassrootsof RTO, the advocacy that is
defined, and the future thatwe're building together.
Here's where you come in.
We're giving away three copiesonce the book is released.

(00:46):
Just head over toRTORevolution.com and sign up
for a chance to receive a copyin early 2026.
Don't miss the chance to beamong the first to hold this
piece of RTO history.
That's rtoorevolution.com.
Check it out and become a partof RTO History.

(01:12):
Hello and welcome to the RTOshow.
I'm your host, P.
Chow, and today we have anotherlegend on.
This is Chris Korst, and he has,let me tell you, he's got years,
years when I tell you of legalexperience in the RTO sector, a
lot with Rena Center.
And you know, I I think a lot ofpeople don't understand how far

(01:32):
back these go.
We're talking about almost what40 years ago right now, Chris?
Is that what that we're talkingabout?
Exactly.
Chris course has done so manythings.
So you were a chiefadministrative officer and
general counsel.
Right?
Right.
You were uh the EVP ofoperations, so executive vice
president of operations.

SPEAKER_01 (01:50):
Correct.

SPEAKER_00 (01:51):
At some point.
And you were also the seniorvice president and general
counselor at that's correct aswell.
A lot of hats.
A lot of hats.
Yeah, a lot of hats.
On top of that, I I think yougot some more words from April
that we'll talk about very soon.

SPEAKER_01 (02:03):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (02:03):
Along the way, I was uh I was honored and appreciated
that.
Yeah.
Well listen, we appreciate whatyou've done because I I'm
starting to feel like what I hadhere wasn't even near the
surface of what we could reallytalk about.
So let's go, let's go back.
We're in the Legends series.
Let's go back.
How does how does Chris Korst in1985 get started in Rent Home?

SPEAKER_01 (02:26):
So that's a great question, Pete.
Um I was in private practice inKansas City, Missouri, um for
the first two years out of lawschool.
And I and my folks lived inWichita, and I was back for a
vacation of some sort oranother, a holiday, whatever,
whatever.
And my dad and I went out to geta beer, and we ran into a
fraternity brother of his uh bythe name of Dave Egan, who was

(02:50):
at that time the first generalcounsel of the original Rennes
Center uh based in Wichita.
And so Dave and I got to talkingand we really hit it off, and he
offered me a job as uh assistantgeneral counsel, I think, was my
first title, maybe staffattorney, something like that.
And so November of 1985, startedon the staff with Dave, and we

(03:12):
went from there.

SPEAKER_00 (03:13):
So then what did he say that bade that convinced you
that rent hone was a place tobe?
Because in 1985, it wasn't aspronounced as it is now.
It's it's it was a wholedifferent ballgame.
It was a little bit of a more ofa wild west back then.
In 1985, somebody says, I wantto I want to introduce you to
something that you've probably Idon't know.
Have you heard of it?
But usually back then I get thewhole I wasn't really sure I

(03:34):
never heard of it, but wedecided to go with it.
Have you heard of Rentone beforethat conversation?
No, I have not.
Absolutely not.
What was it that he said thatthat pulled you in?

SPEAKER_01 (03:43):
So so it's interesting, you know.
First of all, cards on thetable.
I was a young attorney, had anopportunity to move and make a
little bit more money, and itsounded like an interesting gig.
And Dave was just such a greatguy that it was pretty easy to
say yes.
And so I joined and and reallyjust began to learn about rent
to own.
And and it was it was great theway Dave sort of trained me.

(04:07):
He put me with the operators sothat I would help them write an
operations manual.
And so just learned about howoperations worked.
And working side by side withthe operators then um, you know,
was a great experience for meand and really helped me kind of
understand inside, forget thelegal part of it, just how rent

(04:28):
to own worked and you know whowho used those services and why.
And so that that was a greatexperience, uh learning
experience for me.

SPEAKER_00 (04:37):
So starting in the beginning, and from what I
understand, there are there aredifferent things that you've
done since 1985, a lot of whichcould be with rent to own and
some of it wasn't.
You get to take a little bit ofa hey hiatus.
I I know a few people that have.
I know I have to, so I won'thold it against you.
But you know, a lot of things uhthat uh really uh uh uh kind of

(04:58):
sparked my interest is that uhthere was a lot of things going
on in the rent-to-owned space asfar as legal situations back
then.
There were a lot of states thatwere just now starting to get
into the laws of rent-to-ownedbecause there weren't, you know,
any precedent before that.
Um and then there were sometrials and tribulations that
came up in the 90s that werelike, oh my gosh, this is gonna

(05:18):
be really tough on rent to own.
And I would imagine that you sawall of that at some point.
So as you started 1985, wheredid you go from there?

SPEAKER_01 (05:28):
So first couple of years, I really focused on
learning the business andworking on the various legal
issues that the company wasfacing, a lot of labor and
employment uh issues, as youmight guess, and um a lot of
growth, so some acquisition workand and what have you, really
the basics of legal work.
But beginning in uh 1987, Daveasked me if I would help him on

(05:55):
uh a state legislativeinitiative that was just being
put together.
Dave, of course, was workingclosely with the great Ed Wynne
and uh and an attorney whosename you may have heard before,
Sam Choate, um, brilliantattorney and strategist.
And so uh those three wereworking on trying to put craft

(06:17):
this master plan for how do weaddress in a proactive way you
know the overarching leaseversus sale issue, because it
was apparent that fighting inthe courts and hoping judges
understood and really fightingin a lot of bankruptcy courts
where equity ruled the day moreoften than not, it was pretty
easy to see that was a losingproposition long term.

(06:38):
Really, early 1987, the four ofus talked and and and at various
points separately and thentogether and put together really
a master plan of uh astate-by-state march, if you
want to think about it that way.
We had legislation that had beenpassed by then in Michigan and
Texas and Georgia, and New Yorkhad just come online as well.

(07:01):
And so those are the first fourstates, and we used a form of
those bills as what you mightthink of as model legislation,
and we began to carry it to thedifferent state legislatures.
We would hire local lobbyists,fly into the Capitol, meet with
legislators, organize a stateassociation almost every time,
which was critical to theeffort, Pete, as you can

(07:23):
imagine, because the localpeople really made the lift when
it came to the legislatures inthese various states.
They wanted to hear from peoplewho lived in those states who
were local merchants and soforth.
And time, time after time aftertime, the local rent-to-owned
merchants stepped up, testifiedbefore committees, answered

(07:45):
questions, organized into group,into state associations, and
really were the engine behindwhat was probably the most
remarkable run, and I say this,knowing a lot about this, the
most remarkable run of statelegislative initiatives that I
think has ever probably beenoccurred in in this country.

(08:08):
Because we went from four wewent from four state laws at the
end of 86 to 45, 1997.
And you only do that bycollaborating, by pulling oars
together and working hard.
And the good news is, Pete, wedidn't know we couldn't do it,
and so we did so we managed todo it anyway.

SPEAKER_00 (08:27):
I think that's always the that's always the
silver bullet when when you tellsomebody to do it and they just
don't know that it hasn't beendone yet.
They don't know how difficult itis, and it's like, let's just
well, let's get it done.
And then before you know it, Imean there's an initiative,
there's a build behind it.
So you said that Michigan,Texas, and Georgia were the
first ones.
And then you kind of took thosebones, that that fill out, and
and kind of took it to otherstates.

(08:49):
Uh how uh what were the maininsights of those bills that got
passed that you were able to usethose as like the starting
points for the other states?
So that's a great question.

SPEAKER_01 (08:59):
I I think I think the primary driver for our
success, aside from theinvolvement of the local
merchants and so forth, was thefact that we weren't asking for
everything to be of a benefit tothe merchant.
In other words, the thelegislation that was being
proposed was very balanced, veryreasonable, genuine consumer

(09:22):
protection legislation that alsobenefited the industry.
The trade here all along, and Iand I think I listened to part
of Ed Wynne's podcast, and he hetouched on this.
I think the trade here was weneed legal certainty and a legal
environment that allows us to beable to charge what we need to
charge and make a reasonableprofit.

(09:43):
And in exchange for that, we'rewilling to disclose everything
that the customer might need tounderstand about the
transaction.
And then, depending upon thejurisdictions, actually get into
some additional pricemanagement, price cap uh sort of
approaches to the business.
But but I think Pete, the realthe real key was the fact that

(10:03):
we were we were fair andreasonable and we were promoting
true consumer protectionlegislation.

SPEAKER_00 (10:10):
Was there a difficult time?
Because in some cases, there's alot of people that say, you know
what, it it seems very close toa credit transaction.
And it's not.
But you have to kind of spell itout that the lease agreement is
different in different waysbecause of the credit
transaction being almost like apermanent situation.
This is a mark on your credit.
You own this after that thatsituation versus the lease where

(10:31):
you can return it and cancel itout and no longer have
responsibility for the product.
Was that a hard pitch in whatyou did?
And was it more difficult insome states than others?

SPEAKER_01 (10:41):
Uh certainly the answer to your latter question
is no doubt about it.
We had and and frankly, neverdid successfully um uh convince
the legislatures in Minnesota,uh and New Jersey and Wisconsin
that this really was a differentanimal and should have a
different uh regulatoryframework than credit.

(11:02):
And so those states are whatthey are today.
But um yeah, there was in thelate 80s, there was a lot of um
of uh challenges both in thecourts as well as through the
legislative process over how tobest regulate this transaction
and how to best characterize it.
And that occurred both at thestate levels, but also um you

(11:23):
you and the the listeners mayrecall, may be aware that in the
in the late 80s into the early90s, um, there was a federal
effort to amend the Truth inLending Act to include um rent
owners of credit sale under thatum federal uh law.
And so, you know, we werefighting on all fronts, and we
lost a few.
Frankly, I mean we lostPennsylvania in 1988.

(11:46):
Um it was uh it was a little bitof a sleight of hand by the
chairman of the the House UmConsumer Protection Committee.
Um but nonetheless we were wewere put out of uh the
rent-owned business um in amatter of days, and it was eight
years later before we were ableto turn that around, 1996.

(12:07):
Um so yeah, there were therewere um a number of places where
the the narrative that we wereproviding was not um
sufficiently convincing uh toget legislatures to um enact you
know some form of modellegislation.
Now, I'll tell you, where thingsreally began to turn uh came

(12:29):
about in 1989.
Um we had actually come incontact with a state legislative
organization called the Councilof State Governments, and every
other year they put out what isknown as uh suggested state
legislation.
And it's a it's a manual thatstate legislatures uh use across

(12:51):
the country.
I don't know if it's still inuse, but it certainly was very
popular at that time.
And um we managed to get our umVirginia bill in that 1989
suggested state legislationmanual.
And and and when you think aboutthe the impact of that, so the
next year, 1990, we're knockingon doors saying, yeah, here, use

(13:12):
this one.
Use this one.
Don't take our word for it.

SPEAKER_00 (13:17):
Take the council of state governments, right?
So you say there's four statesthat were in 86.
Uh 97, there's 45.
I think that's right.
You're talking and and even ifwe're even close, you're talking
441 different states in a matterof uh maybe 10 or 11 years.
Uh was there a hot spot set ofyears where it was like, man,

(13:38):
this is you know, we have theright maybe uh the right
presidency, maybe there's theyou know, enough people in
either seats of the House or theSenate that uh like the bill as
far as the states are concerned?
It was it easier in in the Southor the North?
Like was there like a dominoeffect and it was just like, you
know, hey, we were reallyknocking on all cylinders, or
was it because as you went on,you guys have uh were able to

(13:58):
kind of fine-tune and hold yourblade and say, hey, I know this
works, I know that talking aboutthis really helps, I know that
getting this into the uh theCouncil of State Governments is
probably a great idea.
Uh did it did it come was itslower at first and then more at
the end, or how did it work?

SPEAKER_01 (14:13):
Um so it we did pick up a lot of of momentum coming
out of the 1989 uh legislativeseason.
Um and really from 90 through 95or so, we were 94 maybe, that we
were we were literally activelyengaged in five to six states at

(14:35):
any given time, and um were verysuccessful in accomplishing uh
our goals of getting gettingfavorable legislation passed.
Uh, we had some we had someissues.
We were constantly, I was inHarrisburg, Pennsylvania, you
know, for months at a timeduring that during those years.
Uh spent a lot of time with RonDeMoss and Roger Sharp up in

(14:56):
West Virginia and Charleston,and we were very unsuccessful
for a long period of time upthere as well.
But on the other side of thecoin, I mean, it just got
rolling.
Where, and believe it or not,you know, part of my
compensation at that time wasbased upon how successful we are
were through the statelegislative process, and the
goals kept getting higher andhigher and higher in terms of uh

(15:19):
being able to earn a bonus islike, I mean, do you think this
was easy because we made it lookeasy, but it it was not.

SPEAKER_00 (15:26):
Chris, you're too good at this.
We're gonna have to make it alittle bit harder for you next
year.
And and you know, I'm I'm gonnasay, I mean, it looks like you
knocked it out of the park.
Now, being associated withRenaissance this time and going
through this, how was thecollaboration between April and
Renaissance?
You mentioned Ed Win was thelegal counsel for April for 40
years before he retired earlierthis year.

(15:47):
Like, how how deep was thatcollaboration with April to make
these things happen?

SPEAKER_01 (15:52):
Well, I would say we couldn't have done it without
April.
Um, and it's sanction of theeffort, number one.
And because Ed had such acredible voice, and I think
still does in the industry thathis support for what we were
trying to accomplish was reallyintegral and critical to our
being able to go around thecountry and talk to rental

(16:12):
dealers in Arkansas and Michiganand Minnesota and Colorado and
Arizona and all the other placeswhere we ended up going.
We had the improvement tour ofEdwin and April that really
allowed us to be taken seriouslyand credibly by the state rental
dealers.
So that was a part of it.

(16:33):
But it wasn't always easyeither, because there was a lot
of mistrust in some places over,you know, the big guys coming
in.
And does this really just doesit benefit everybody, or does it
really just benefit Renaissanceand all that, all the stuff that
you would expect?
Absolutely no surprises.
But, you know, we had to dealwith those questions, and and I
think in retrospect, we wereable to do so, you know,

(16:56):
successfully.
But yeah, no, it was it was nota it was not always smooth.
Even at even at the April level,the board meetings and the
government relations committeemeetings were oftentimes
contentious, a lot of uh backand forth over budgets, over
money, over how we were going toraise enough to do the things
that we needed to do.
Um, and uh but but through itall, I will say this, through it

(17:17):
all, collectively, we kept oureyes on the prize.
We knew what had happened to ourcolleagues in Minnesota and
Wisconsin when we got put out ofbusiness there.
We had seen the big checks beingbeing written primarily by
Renaissance Center for classaction settlements and what have
you.
And uh people took thatseriously.
And uh so we were able to putaside whatever differences we

(17:40):
had and uh and work toward uhyou know collaboratively toward
toward that goal.

SPEAKER_00 (17:45):
Well, I can tell you right now, it's an it it looks
like you almost had a state aquarter over the essence of a 10
or 11 year span.
That's that's some movement,that's some serious movement.
Now, I know that in the early2000s there was uh early,
probably I mean rephrase that.
We're probably talking even midto early 90s, you know, uh not
just Rent A Center, but Rent toHone in the as a total.

(18:10):
We had a black eye.
There were some bad operatorsout there that did some stuff
that made made us a littledifficult.
They collected a little, youknow, they collected in a way
that might not have been theright way they should have
collected, or there were somesituations out there that kind
of made us look bad.
And that moniker kind offollowed us for a few years.
And I think you know, and I callit the dark ages.
I think we came out of the darkages in the early 2000s when it
when it really came out, youknow.

(18:30):
I mean, Renner Center uh becamebigger at that point in time
because, you know, Thorn and andthe acquisition and all that
stuff with uh, you know, Rent'schoice.
But you know, going into theearly 90s, mid-90s, and then
late 90s, uh, how difficult uhdid that become if there are
some guys out there, some badapples that are acting a certain
way under collections and salespractices while you're out there
trying to make these RDAs uh goto their legislative branches

(18:53):
and say, hey, we we need a lawfor this because we want to do
this the right way.
We really want to be on the upand up.
We want to make sure that yousee how much money you're
spending.
We want you not to get lockedinto this, this it's not a
credit transaction, and we wantyou to be able to own this.
Was there that was there adichotomy there?
Like, you know, on one hand,you're trying to do the best you
can, on the other hand, youreally got to figure out how to
get the news to people that wearen't what they think we are.

(19:14):
Sure.

SPEAKER_01 (19:15):
Um and uh you you put your finger on it.
Um helping helping peopleunderstand that one way to
address those outliers isthrough you know consumer
protection legislation thatgives consumers rights and
doesn't allow merchants to dowhatever the heck they want.
I want to quickly add, becausethe the years have given me a

(19:36):
good deal of retrospection,Pete, but I would say it wasn't
just the local mom and pops whowere misbehaving, and it wasn't
a lot either, by the way.
It just you didn't need met muchbecause it it made headlines,
but there wasn't a lot, and itwasn't just mom and pops.
I mean, I I know I recall someissues that that Renaissance had
in some of its operations aswell.

(19:57):
And and then the other thing isThe the the stories are easy to
over dramatize and and and andto fictionalize.
And we know that for example,when in September ninety two the
Wall Street Journal ran a frontpage article on Renaissance and
uh had just horrendousmisallegations, wrong statements

(20:19):
and so forth about the companyand our business practice and so
forth.
But this was back when the WallStreet Journal was still one
section and it was the oversizedpaper, and we had the right-hand
column on a Friday, and then youopen up to the fold in the
middle, and it was both sides ofthe fold.
That's how that's how muchcoverage this this got.
And and that made it made thingsdifficult for a while,

(20:41):
certainly.
Um in a in a couple of respects.
One, speaking to policymakersand what have you.
And two, I think, I think someof my fellow rental merchants
were a bit uncomfortable, youknow, having to answer questions
about what was in the WallStreet Journal and what Rena
Center was doing.
You know, so it it really got inthe way, but only for a little

(21:04):
while, because again, this thisindustry has always kept its
eyes up and its march forward,whether that be through the
legislative process or today, interms of how focused the folks
are on serving the customer theright way, you know, offering

(21:24):
quality products, respectfulcollections, all those kinds of
things, those are all hallmarksof what I've always experienced
with the rent-town industry, andthat is they care and they then
they know what's right, andthey're gonna do that as often
as they possibly can.

SPEAKER_00 (21:39):
Well, you sound like you played a big part in the
advocacy for rent-to-own.
And I gotta know, so what roledid you play in Rent A Center um
and helping the industry as awhole moving towards best
practices?
Was there was there an outlinethat you guys kind of worked on?

SPEAKER_01 (21:57):
Well, you know, I I don't know if there was an
outline per se.
And we did really, you know, um,and and this really was a
function of what we were tryingto tell the state legislatures
about us, you know, that createduh again a narrative around the
right way to do this business.
And so that that became ourmantra as we went through these

(22:19):
processes.
Of course, April had its own,you know, operation standards,
um, etc.
And that has been around reallyfrom the very early days of of
April is uh to you know set thestandard, set the bar high for
how you should, you know, takecare of your customers and what
have you.
And so so but but morespecifically, Pete, I would tell

(22:40):
you my role in the in the in theadvancement of the legislative
agenda was really central.
I was I was the guy on the road40 to 45 weeks of the year.
Um I got to about 42 statecapitals and uh and uh testified
in hundreds of of legislativecommittees, attended far too

(23:03):
many fundraisers and uh all thatsort of stuff.
And and uh but you know, and andby the way, uh I'd I'd I'd I'd
be remiss if I didn't add rightnow.
There have been so many peoplewho've helped me along the way,
most importantly, um my wifeClaire, because we had three
little ones at home, and I wasgone 45 weeks of the year.

(23:24):
And you can't do that with justa superstar at home, and that's
what that's what I wouldabsolutely, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 (23:29):
No, we need we need we need to get her on here so
that you can tell her side ofthe story.
Like, you know, going back alittle bit, you had mentioned
that there was also some I thinkwe both had mentioned it, but
there was some federal attentionand some some threats that came
up during your time.
Can you describe that to me alittle bit and what they were?

SPEAKER_01 (23:48):
Yeah.
So um, and the first realcritical threat came in in 1993,
I think it was.
Henry B.
Gonzalez from San Antonio waschairman of the House Banking
Committee, and he introduced uhlegislation, an amendment in the
form of legislation that wouldhave pulled rent-to-owned
terminable leases in under thedefinition of credit sale for

(24:10):
purposes of truth and lending,which would have been you know,
obviously devastating to what wewere trying to accomplish.

SPEAKER_00 (24:16):
Yeah, it'd have been terrible.
That would have given it.

SPEAKER_01 (24:18):
Yeah.
But but again, in a tribute toum the moxie and and and and
capabilities of this industry,we immediately rallied.
Hearings in the in the relevantsubcommittees were scheduled.
We had members come up toWashington, testify, meet with
the press, do all those kinds ofthings.

(24:38):
And I gotta tell you, we were soeffective that Henry Gonzalez
was chairman of the full bankingcommittee.
He introduced legislation thatgot sent to a subcommittee, and
it never left the subcommittee.
And this is the chairman's bill,and it never moved.
It never moved.

SPEAKER_00 (25:01):
You guys were seriously effective.
You know, talking about APRO andRena Center, because you were a
part of Rentna Center at thattime and how effective you guys
were, you know, the team ofEdwin, yourself, and some
others, uh I also believe thatthere was some some uh creating
of the RDAs at that time, therental dealer associations
across the U.S.
Did they play a role in theirstates as well, or was it like

(25:22):
we showed up, we formed it, andthen we helped them go with us
to the Capitol and was it likean all-in-one swoop?
Or was it, you know, some peoplehad seen, wow, they're really
effective in what they're doingfor their state.
We better get online with APRO,kind of create this RDA and kind
of put in some groundwork beforethey have to get here.

SPEAKER_01 (25:40):
Mostly the former.
Once we identified a targetstate, uh Pete, we would reach
out through APRO andindependently to rental dealers
in Mississippi or Kansas or theDakotas or wherever else, right?
And we'd we'd introduceourselves and tell people that
here's what we would like to do.
And let's hold a hold anorganizational meeting and and

(26:02):
send out invitations.
APRO was really the the driverof of that um that uh process of
mailing invitations, notifyinguh rental dealers, and so forth.
And then typically Ron de Mossand or Ron de Moss, Ron Waters
and I would travel to whateverstate it was and hold an
organizational meeting.
And Ron just was just terrificwith the rental dealers, so so

(26:26):
easy to get along with, socredible, and so forth, that it
really became sort of acookie-cutter approach to how to
get this thing going.
Now, to your point, and you'reright, somewhere along the line,
that model changed a little bit,and some rental dealers began to
think, well, maybe we ought toget organized, because then
maybe those planners will putour state on the list to get

(26:50):
moving here because we want togo now, not wait for years or
whatever.

SPEAKER_00 (26:53):
Right, right, right.

SPEAKER_01 (26:54):
So there was some of the some of that, you know,
toward the later years.
But yeah, it was uh it wasreally mostly front-loaded.
Let's get everybody together,tell them what we want to do,
ask for their support, try toraise some money, and then head
up to the Capitol.

SPEAKER_00 (27:08):
So after you know, 93 had Henry B.
Gonzalez, was there anythingelse that kind of came up that
really was like, you know what,this is something we better put
our attention to before it getsto a point where we're already
behind the butt, the eight ball?

SPEAKER_01 (27:20):
Yeah, absolutely.
So in '97, and I'm going to givegeneralities here because I was
involved from a from a uh umadvocacy perspective, but not
necessarily from the substantiveperspective.
But there was there was acritical tax issue uh addressing
depreciation in our industry.

(27:42):
Um and of course, you know, thethe notion of credit sale versus
lease or terminable rentalagreement is a critical one for
tax purposes as well.
Because if you're if you're amerchant and you're selling
goods, you you you got to writethat product off at the you know
when you sell it.
On the other hand, in ourbusiness, we know that um we

(28:04):
depreciate those uh uh assetsover the course of the rental
agreement, over the course ofyou know 18 months, two years,
or whatever it is.
And the proposal on the tablewould have had um rent-on
transactions included as creditsales for purposes of writing
off the asset upon thetransaction's commencement date.
So we again we rallied, we gotwe got the right people with the

(28:26):
right voices and the rightinformation.
We got up to Washington, and infact, we're able to obtain
legislation, amendments to thetax code that secured um and and
and and clearly locked us intothis is not a sale, and the
asset should be depreciated, andhere's a methodology by which
you should do that.

SPEAKER_00 (28:46):
So as you're as you're doing this, because
you're you're championing,championing, gotta say this word
right.
You guys are killing it.
You're going from state tostate, you're making this
happen, whether it's for RennaCenter, whether it's for April,
whether it's with the RDAs orwithout you're knocking these
out, right?
On average, we've said once aquarter, you got another state
checked off and moved on.
Uh but uh you know we said acouple things.

(29:07):
Uh we've got to make sure thatwe're letting everybody know
this is the cost of ownership.
This is what you're gonna getinto, this is what you're gonna
expect.
These are the things that we'veoutlined in our so this is what
you can get from us because thisis what we want to get from you,
right?
So you want to get it from us,we're gonna put you, we're gonna
put it all out there, you'regonna know everything you're
getting into, you gonna know howlong you're gonna be paying for
it, what you're gonna be payingfor, if it's used, if it's not
used, if it's brand new,whatever the case is.

(29:30):
But at that point in time, uhthen some of this was new.
Some of this was in each areathis is new to us, we're gonna
figure all this out.
Was there also an effort to makesure that there was these checks
and balances, that somebody wasgoing back behind you and going,
okay, we said that we're gonnado this, but we have to make
sure and ensure that we're doingthis.

(29:51):
And somebody had to go throughwith these audit processes and
making sure that it washappening.
Was that also something that youwere a part of?
Is that something that youhelped create?
No, not really.

SPEAKER_01 (30:00):
In a handful of states, the way the regulatory
uh framework sets up, Pete, umthere are administrators
responsible for doing that auditand confirming compliance and so
forth, and correcting course orfinding or doing whatever else
the case may be.
In in almost all the legislationthat was passed, there was some

(30:21):
uh state agency designated asthe responsible party for
enforcement.
After these state laws were putinto place, but before they
became effective, we wouldroutinely have a compliance
seminar and invite all therental dealers to attend.
And and either I or you know, EdWynne did several of these as
well.

(30:41):
You know, others who came afterme on the on the Rentis Center
legal staff, the Ron DeMoss'sand and uh Brad Dennison's and
and so forth of the world wouldwould go to the state after the
law was passed but not yeteffective and say, all right,
here's how you comply.
And here's a form rentalagreement that you can use, or
you can go have your owncreated, what whatever the case
may be.

(31:02):
But yeah, we would coach peopleon how to how to comply with the
new new legislation.

SPEAKER_00 (31:08):
So I that's something that this is actually
the first time I've heard of.
So we actually helped create therental agreements that we
adhered to.
We did.
In some cases.
Oh, that's awesome.
That's that's great.
Because so then in 2011, uh theCFPB comes.
Something that's a little bitdifferent than we had before.
That CFPB is now on the scene.
How did that change things?

SPEAKER_01 (31:29):
Well, in the end, it really didn't change much of
anything, at least not untilmore recently, where the the
CFPB had had a couple of yearsor so ago tried to grab the new
virtual leasing uh transactionand pull it under its its uh
authority.
But Pete, in in 2009, coming outof the financial crisis, the

(31:51):
Sarvaines Oxley uh bill wasbeing was being uh prepared.
No, that's not right.
It was the later one.
It was the uh um anyway, the thethe the new regulatory framework
that created the CFPB, um uhuntil we were able to get it
amended, might well have putjurisdiction, uh regulatory

(32:14):
jurisdiction over rent to ownunder the CFPB.
Um we were able to get anamendment in committee that
excluded short-term leases underwhich the initial term was less
than 90 days, not under theCFPB's jurisdiction, but rather
under the FTC's where we hadbeen for years.
And so we were able to escapethat um, you know, that

(32:37):
situation pretty cleanly.
Again, working the committee inin the House uh and eventually
getting that uh that amendmentsecured.

SPEAKER_00 (32:45):
I think you know when you talk about the FTC
versus the CFPB, I I have heardso many things about not wanting
to be under the CFPB and howwell we could do without that
situation considering we've beenrunning very well without it.
I think that would be a hugeoverstep in the wrong direction,
and I think it could really hurta lot of rental dealers across
the you know uh the UnitedStates because uh honestly uh it

(33:05):
was never built that way.
And I think that if it's if youknow something that's not built
the way it is governed willdefinitely eventually fail
because they're gonna have a lotof overreach and then it's gonna
cause a lot of leasingagreements to be seen in a lot
of different ways.
And uh, you know, I thinkthey're battling a little bit of
that up in New York.
I don't know how much you knowabout that right now, but
they're trying to deal with theuh some legislation up there to

(33:27):
not put us in some differentlight.
They've been governed really, Iguess since you guys got New
York changed over with somefederal laws, they've been
working very, very well.
I mean, there's a lot ofrent-to-owned um companies in
that state and owners in thatstate and employees in that
state are doing very well.
So they're trying to, you know,April is working actively now to
keep it exactly the way it iswithout change.
You've got to play some very,very good groundwork on that.

(33:49):
Um and then so uh what we're asyou're going through this, you
know, you have to put thetransparency up.
You have to let them know, hey,this is the numbers that we're
gonna deal with, this is how youdo it, this is how you regulate.
Now I'm starting to find out wealso had the rental agreements
that you put out in front of Imean all these types that were
put out and all these things arehow did you how do you feel like

(34:10):
uh Chris course was perceivedthroughout time?
Did you did you feel like you'veaccomplished uh a lot in and
what you meant to do duringthose times?
Because you I would say you'veaccomplished way more than I
think, you know, that that thatwas able, but not only did you
that, but do you feel likeyou've left that legacy, like
you've been able to say, youknow what, I've really left my
mark on rent to own, or is theresomething else that you feel

(34:32):
like was coming down the pipethat you wanted to tackle before
you left?

SPEAKER_01 (34:35):
Well, my answer to your first question would be
yes, I think I think theindustry does have uh an
understanding and I hope anappreciation for what role I
played in a team effort, right?
Because it really was a teameffort.
Along the way, I will tell you,you know, I was probably
accurately perceived as a bit ofa bully because a lot of a lot

(34:55):
of rent owned dealers, you know,were worried, understandably,
about, well, wait a minute, if Itell the customer how what the
total is, they're gonna run outthe door, you know, and and and
and all these other disclosures,and oh my goodness, and and and
over time, obviously that thoseconcerns evaporated because it
uh they turned out to not betrue.
But in order to get what we'dgot accomplished in the amount

(35:17):
of time we got it done, therewas a there was sometimes there
was some pushing going on.
Yeah.
I was I was doing some of it.
Uh you know, and and so Iunderstand.
I understand, particularly thebenefit of you know the years uh
that have passed.
I understand the that that therewas some you know resentment to
well, here comes Renaissance,here comes course, we're

(35:37):
getting, you know, they're gonnatell us what to do and all this
kind of stuff.
I appreciate that.
But I also hope in in inretrospect for other people they
look back and go, well, I'm gladsomebody did.
Because this could have turnedout very, very differently had
we not been as aggressive as wewere.

SPEAKER_00 (35:53):
Well, I w I'm I'm telling you, just so that we can
say a state of quarter, I'm I'mgoing back over that like that
is some serious accomplishment,which led you to the April
President's Award that you won.
That's awesome.
How was it how was it winning anaward with that?

SPEAKER_01 (36:09):
Well, it was great.
Obviously, you know, you likeanyone, uh I I gave a lot of my
professional time and a lot ofpersonal um sweat and and tears
and so forth, um, trying to besuccessful on behalf of a group
of folks who, you know, in turnexpressed their gratitude for
that.
And that's that was thepresident's award.

(36:30):
And, you know, I'm just I'm justreally proud.
You know, I'm just really proudof what we were able to do
together.
In no ways do I want to leave animpression that it was me, it
was us.
It was when I was when I uh youknow got to a certain point, Ron
DeMoss stepped in and helped outin California and West Virginia
and other states like that, andhe was awesome.

(36:51):
And and you know, subsequent toall of that, um Brad at Denison
and Dwight Dumbler were there,uh Matt Greenwald later in the
later years, um, after we moveddown here to Dallas, you know,
we couldn't have done it withoutRon Waters, who was just
spectacular, and and Bill Keyswas so supportive as well that,
you know, so yeah, that to tohave had the the honor bestowed,

(37:15):
uh the presence award bestowedwas was really meaningful.
And and then later, you know, ofcourse, I got the Lifetime
Achievement Award after wellafter I'd I think people I
thought people had forgottenabout me about me.

SPEAKER_00 (37:28):
Oh no, I mean you were part of a really big
situation.
I mean, without some of thethings that you participated in,
I I don't think I would have hadthe career that I had, because
I've my career started in 2000,and uh I I wouldn't be able to
do what I'm doing today if itwasn't for you that was put in.
Okay, I gotta say, I'm like whatout of all this, because you you
got you've got a big resumethere, what was some of your

(37:49):
hardest, what were some of yourbiggest challenges going through
and getting some of these statesdone?
Do you remember one or two thatwere like, wow, this was a
challenge, this was difficult,this was something that I can
write on my wall here.

SPEAKER_01 (38:00):
Oh yeah.
West Virginia was extremelydifficult.
Um uh and and took really Ithink my first trip to West
Virginia, uh, I was actually inWashington with Dave Egan, and
we were interviewing forlobbyists, and we had had dinner
with John Raffielli.
I don't know if that's a nameyou know.

SPEAKER_00 (38:18):
Yes, it is, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (38:19):
John's a wonderful guy, great guy.
Just talked to him last weekagain, and um, we were looking
to hire John, and uh and Davegot a call from I think it was
Roger Sharp, who was who was umyou know one of the few rental
dealers in in West Virginia atthe time, and he said, Hey, we
got a problem, there's been abad bill introduced, and so I

(38:42):
literally flew from Washingtonto Charleston uh the next day,
and I was there for a week, andthat was 1988, and it took us
five years to get across thefinish line there.
So, yeah, West Virginia wasextremely difficult.
Pennsylvania, same thing.
I mean, and and we were reallyout of business in Pennsylvania

(39:05):
for all intents and purposes.
We tried some different you knowtransactions where customers
could get you know award pointsor what have you, and it just it
just really never took.
But it was eight years, and andas I said earlier, I was in
Harrisburg every year for weekson end sometimes during the
legislative sessions.
So those two really stand out.

(39:25):
New Jersey, of course, we neverdid get there.
And frankly, I don't think weever got close.
Now, Minnesota nut to crack,right?
What's that?

SPEAKER_00 (39:34):
That was a tough nut to crack, huh?

SPEAKER_01 (39:36):
It was very difficult.
It was very difficult.
And and and that's too bad, too,because there's a lot of
consumers who need rent own therent own option in that state,
and and and and the theenvironment has been
discouraging to you knowcompetition, which is which is
not not good for anybody, Ithink.
And then the other two thatreally stand out are Wisconsin
and Minnesota.
I think we could have at theend, very end of of the days in

(39:59):
Wisconsin.
gotten across the finish line,but ultimately did not.
And Minnesota, it's a differentuh story for another day, but we
really got we got lied to by youknow some of the players in the
in the process up there aboutwhat they were planning to do.
And we ended up with a piece oflegislation that ultimately um a
federal district court judgeruled as a part of the credit

(40:21):
laws which it was never intendedto be and so that's what we
ended up in in so that's that'srough.

SPEAKER_00 (40:28):
That's rough.
Uh-huh if you were if you wereto take a look at it right now,
what's going on?
There's there are differentthings.
There's buy now, you know, buybuy now pay later.
There's a couple other things.
What are your thoughts on thesealternative financing models and
and how they can affect you knowa lot of the people out there
versus the way rent to own wasbuilt and our regulatory because

(40:51):
you went and fought to make surethat not only do we have the
ability to do it, but to beoverseen very well.
We have to stay within certainlaws.
We we have to discloseeverything that we do.
But now you have some of theseother financial models coming up
you know a CEMA progressive buynow pay later.
What do you think about thosemodels in comparison to all the
things that you fought for thesepast couple of decades?

SPEAKER_01 (41:12):
So from a consumer and and and and market
perspective Pete, I mean theseevolutions are inevitable.
People need access and as longas credit is going to be based
upon what you've done in thepast and not what you can or try
or want to try to do today, thencredit's not going to be a good

(41:33):
fit for two-thirds of of Americaon a regular basis.
And so that that two thirdsneeded some options and we were
one of the first in line rightwe weren't the first in line
there were far worse optionsbefore we came along as you
that's true.
But when we came along and andreally legitimized you know an

(41:54):
alternative transaction toconsumer credit, it was a matter
of time before a couple thingswould occur.
One, that that transactionitself would be picked up and
employed by merchants to try toaccess a broader group of
consumers, a different group ofconsumers.
And heck I think I think it'sfair to say that Rena Center was

(42:15):
probably the first in that gamebecause we were doing we were
partnering with Ashley's retailstores taking their turns down
turndowns and and uh doing renton transactions back as early as
I want to say 2008.
And I remember that because thefirst place we tried that was in
Atlanta and I had just becomeEVP of operations and I went

(42:38):
down to Atlanta with Mitch Fideland the store the Renaissance
closest to the Astley store waswhere all the returns were were
ending up and we walked into tothis this this Renaissance store
and I mean it had I don't know700 units in inventory from all

(42:59):
the pictures you walk into thebig showroom you walk in it's
chock full of Ashley bedroomfurniture living room furniture
no other brands very few TVsvery few washers and dryers then
we walk we walked out back andI'll never forget there were
like four of these trailers fullof the returns and so um and

(43:21):
that was that was early 1988 ornine I'm sorry 2008 and um and
you what what that told methough was um there's a demand
that needs to be met.
How do you do it?
And and over the course of theyears of course Renaissance
figured that out but so have youknow some other people um some

(43:41):
other players notably umprogressive and a SEMA um but
others as well and uh so what Ithink about what I worried about
and I and I if I were in thatindustry even today I would
continue to worry about is thepotential negative effect that
those applications of the rentowned transaction to these other

(44:03):
opportunities might have on umpolicymakers because it you know
it's it's a different animal andit's being in it and it's and
it's the it's the same formbeing used in a different way.
And what I would say to youraudience because I think they'll
really appreciate this is one ofthe ways that we were able to be

(44:24):
as successful as we were throughthe state and federal
legislative processes is thatthe right to terminate and
return the products at any timeand then come back in and pick
up where you left off was acritical maybe the paramount
factor in convincing people thatthis was different.
Right?

(44:44):
And I'm I I'm I'm afraid thatthat's maybe not true in all of
the other applications that thetransaction is being used for
today.

SPEAKER_00 (44:52):
Well 100% agreed I I actually I actually believe
that's why New York is in theplace that it is now because
these new actors that are inthere and taking you know the
progressive the SEMA they aregetting more they're getting
more steam.
A lot of people are seeing itbut the that deciding factor the
other thing too is you know westill brick and mortar there's a
place to return it to it's notjust a line on a on a statement

(45:13):
sheet it's it's you know youreally can return it if you have
that much trouble and and youknow when you return it you
don't have to be sent tocollections you're you're no
longer in a doghouse we can go aclean sleep come back later and
pick up where you left offthat's even the best part of it.

SPEAKER_01 (45:27):
Beautiful story that really is a beautiful story.

SPEAKER_00 (45:29):
It is it is but when you have these other situations
where they're saying you canmake these payments but in the
sense that you can't return itand you're probably going to be
liable for it regardless of whathappens to it then that imposes
the collection side of it.
It puts us in a credit standardand it's like wait a minute
we're not we're not there and Ithink that's what they're really
trying to differentiate andidentify down to the wire of

(45:50):
what's going on in New York.
I got to say though, I mean withall this all that you have
accomplished being a vicepresident in three different
situations you have the awardsyou've you've done a lot with
APR.
You've you know the Ed Wynn andevery other name that I can
mention in the book includingMitch Fidel what are you doing
post Renaissance?
What's going on now in yourlife?
So great question.

SPEAKER_01 (46:10):
So I was with Rena Center in Wichita until 98 Pete
when I left I had actually spentthe last two years during that
stint heading up a new businessthat Rena Center wanted to get
into the used car sales andfinance business.
Buy here pay here.
And so when I left Rena Centerin 98 I actually bought that
asset from Renters Choice afterthe sale and started my own buy

(46:32):
here pay here used car lot inWichita and ran that for three
years and then I got a call as Ithink I mentioned from from
Mitch in February of 2001 and heasked me if I'd be interested in
coming back and being generalcounsel and I talked to Claire
about it and we I talked to mypartners in the car business
about it and we ended up comingon down.
And so we moved here in 2001.

(46:56):
As you said earlier I wasgeneral counsel till the end of
07 and then from 08 to the endof 13 I was EVP of ops uh which
was an absolute blast by the wayjust I mean I had so much fun in
that job.
And then in 2014 I I moved backinto the home office role as uh
uh you know chief administrativeofficer and general counsel and

(47:17):
did that till I left in in Juneof 2019.
Since that time I've been mostlygeneral counsels for two
different restaurant and realestate family offices.
So the first of those is now thesecond largest franchise company
in the country and the one Ijust left last Friday when I

(47:38):
retired from full-time practicewas I think the fifth or sixth
largest, you know, with allkinds of brands that everybody
would recognize and so forth.
So I retired on Friday fromfull-time practice but I'm now
um a partner with OutsideGeneral Counsel, which is a firm
that provides fractional generalcounsel and legal help to small

(47:59):
businesses, big businesses,whoever has a need maybe you're
a startup and you don't want ityou don't want to hire a general
counsel or you can't afford one,you call me and I'd provide
those general counsel servicesfor you know hourly rates and
what have you and and so I'manxious to get that started and
I and I'm gonna put a commercialout here Pete any of my any of

(48:20):
my friends and colleagues in therent home business need any help
you know please uh please reachout to me.
I'd love to talk to you and andif for no other reason it just
catch up.

SPEAKER_00 (48:28):
Well I tell you what uh and and so what city what
state are you living in now?

SPEAKER_01 (48:33):
So we're still in Frisco Texas suburb of of Dallas
and uh we've been here as I saidsince since the summer of 2001.
Yeah we love Texas love theDallas area a lot to to do
around here and and by the wayit's a great place to travel
from just a I mean you'reanywhere in one flight and right

(48:53):
yeah you know it's just it'sperfect.
When I was out gallivantingaround the country on my second
stint with Renaissance I wasjust so thankful I was I was not
back in Wichita where you knowthere's always a connection you
know so you said it's a it's anarea of of Dallas?

SPEAKER_00 (49:08):
It's like a a sub-area of Dallas?

SPEAKER_01 (49:10):
That's a suburb yeah so if you think about Dallas
north of Dallas the the the nextuh large suburb is Plano and
then Frisco is just immediatelynorth of Plano.

SPEAKER_00 (49:20):
Oh okay all right so you're close to listen I'm gonna
tell you right now um the thingsthat you've done in rent own I'm
gonna have to buy you lunch forsome time if I'm ever in the
area I would have to go toDallas all the freaking time I'd
be honest it's a great place Ilove that place.
So you know you you I you'vedone so much it's really kind of
hard to say one or two things.
I mean you you you've had thisestablished career that's

(49:42):
amazing throughout years youknow if you had to say in some
final thoughts uh Chris youyou've you've done a lot um
going into the future you'vekind of stepped away now you're
doing your own thing aside fromrent to own but as rent to own
goes on and there are these newthings that should be popping up
including some of the thingsthat are happening in New York
what would be some advice thatyou would give to the members of

(50:05):
April that you would give to themembers of the RDAs that you
know going into the future andas they come across these speed
bumps, these hurdles, what wouldyou say to them?

SPEAKER_01 (50:13):
So Pete, I think what I what I would what I would
say is really more in the formof a reminder of what got us
here and what got us here firstand foremost was collaboration,
working together, speaking withone voice.
Second issue that or the secondreminder that I would give is

(50:36):
you know the high level of ofcustomer care, not just customer
service, but truly I've watchedthese the folks in this business
for decades and it is customercare.
That needs to be the forefrontof the of the story and and then
you know reminding thelegislators the policymakers
that you know under theseregulatory frameworks customers

(50:58):
are fully protected and they getwhat they want and they get what
they need and and their theirrights are fully insured.
So you know stay with thatplaybook stay with that story
and and by the way don'thesitate find some of your best
customers and get them to go upand talk to the legislatures
legislators themselves we we hada good deal of success with that

(51:20):
over the years.
And then because the thecustomers would put it in their
own words more generallyspeaking T I would I would try
to I would try to thinkstrategically about um you know
how do you create regulatoryframeworks that have you know
the right amount of variabilitydepending upon how you're going

(51:43):
to apply the transaction.
Because by the way not only do Inot not begrudge anybody but for
using the transaction I'm I'mproud that we were able to
legitimize it the way we did,right?
Absolutely.
That being said, you know thebig players in that space should
be every bit as protective ofthe right to do this transaction
as we have been over the years.

(52:05):
Period.

SPEAKER_00 (52:05):
Agreed they have an obligation at least as much if
not more so than than thetraditional rent owned dealer
right absolutely well I'm goingto tell you Chris I appreciate
you being on good luck and allthe endeavors that you've gotten
yourself through and now into Iit sounds like amazing outside
of uh Renaissance listen I wouldtell you guys if you guys have

(52:26):
any questions please hit me upat the show.
It's Pete at the RTO showpodcast dot com.
You can send me anything if youhave any questions for Chris
courts I will definitely send ithis way because he's got a lot
of legal tenure ship he's got alot of knowledge and probably
things that you want to knowabout.
Also remember this is part ofthe Legend series.
We are going to put some of thisinformation out on the book
that's actually coming out youdon't want to miss that.

(52:47):
But if you have any questionsand you want to hit me up you
can hit me up at the show alsoyou can do it on Facebook,
LinkedIn, Instagram.
You can also do it on YouTubewhere you're gonna see this.
Chris, it's been an amazingconversation I really appreciate
it.
And I will tell you guys asalways get your collections low
to get your sales high.
Have a great one.
Hey everyone it's Pete Cow herefrom the Arts Go podcast and I

(53:09):
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