March 10, 2026 • 53 mins
What does it take to survive every major shift in the rent to own industry and still come out stronger more than 40 years later?
In this Legends Series episode of The RTO Show, Pete Shau sits down with Gary Ferriman of Showplace Rent to Own to explore the real history of the RTO business, from used TV repair shops and handwritten rental agreements to modern rent to own software, industry advocacy, and multi generational leadership.
Gary shares how Showplace grew through customer trust, disciplined growth, strong industry relationships, and a relentless focus on helping customers achieve ownership at the lowest possible price. This episode is packed with insights on rent to own business operations, RTO history, APRO advocacy, customer retention strategies, financing challenges, and how independent operators built one of the most resilient retail industries in America.
What You’ll Learn:
- How Gary Ferriman transitioned from a TV repair business into one of the most respected rent to own companies in the country
- Why transparency around early purchase options and ownership pricing became a major competitive advantage for Showplace Rent to Own
- How APRO, state rental dealer associations, and industry collaboration helped shape modern rent to own regulations
- What independent RTO operators can learn about debt management, customer relationships, and long term business growth
- How successful rent to own businesses adapt to changing products, technology, customer expectations, and economic cycles
Episode Highlights:
- 03:22 – How a simple “$10 a week” idea launched Gary Ferriman into the rent to own industry
- 07:05 – Building a business with almost no startup capital and avoiding early debt
- 12:09 – The first vendor relationships that helped shape Showplace Rent to Own
- 14:35 – Gary explains the legal and advocacy battles that helped legitimize the RTO industry
- 16:22 – Running rent to own accounts manually before modern RTO software existed
- 21:49 – Why joining APRO and industry associations transformed Gary’s leadership journey
- 28:27 – The customer transparency strategy that made Showplace different from competitors
- 39:33 – Surviving the lending crisis when finance companies called RTO loans overnight
- 45:43 – The surprising rent to own product category that became a major success story
- 51:27 – Gary’s advice for the next generation of rent to own operators and leaders
Meet the Guest:
Gary Ferriman is the founder of Showplace Rent to Own and a longtime leader in the rent to own industry. He has served as APRO president and has spent decades helping shape RTO advocacy, customer service standards, and leadership development for independent operators across the country.
Tools, Frameworks, or Strategies Mentioned:
- Early Purchase Option (EPO) transparency strategy
- Customer first ownership philosophy
- Long term relationship based rent to own operations
- APRO and state RDA advocacy initiatives
- Manual account tracking systems before RTO software
- VersaRent, Ideal Software, and Hightouch software evolution
- Community based customer retention strategies
- Conservative debt management and growth planning
- Seasonal “put up” payment programs for lawnmowers and appliances
Closing Insight:
“Think long term, do the right thing, and take care of the customer. That mindset helped build companies that lasted through every challenge the industry faced.”
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
Hi, I'm Peach Cow.
(00:02):
You may know me from the RTOShow podcast, but today I'm
doing something a little bitdifferent.
Apro and Wild Brands havelaunched a special project to
bring the story of our industryto life like never before.
They've asked me to sit downwith some of the true legends of
Rent to Own, capturing theirstories, their impact, and their
vision for the future.
And now I get to share thoseconversations with you straight
from the legends themselves.
(00:23):
All of this leads to somethinggroundbreaking though.
A new book.
The Rent to Own Revolution, adefinitive history of advocacy
and consumer access, written byApril's CEO Charles Schlitterman
and WoW Brand CEO Brian Kraft.
The book explores the grassrootsof RTO, the advocacy that has
defined it, and the future thatwe're building together.
Here's where you come in.
We're giving away free copiesonce the book is released.
(00:46):
Just head over toRTORevolution.com and sign up
for a chance to receive a copyin early 2026.
Don't miss the chance to beamong the first to hold this
piece of RTO history.
That's rtorevolution.com.
Check it out and become a partof RTO History.
(01:12):
Hello, everybody.
My name is Pete Chow.
Welcome to the RTO Show podcast.
Today we're doing anotherlegends, and you've seen this
legend before, but this one's ina different capacity.
Right now, we're kind of peelingback some onions of the history
of what Show Place has been,where Gary Fairman is going, but
more importantly, how we gothere.
(01:33):
The the times that led us to thegreatest part of Into Own era
right now is where we're sittingat.
And I love the fact that I cansit across from him now because
uh, you know, there are so manypeople that didn't make it.
You know, some some businessesthat came through and they
stopped and didn't find a way,or it was just their time to
call it a day.
Um, and we lost a few peoplethis year.
(01:54):
We're sorry to say that, but wethey are remembered.
And I will always say, I've saidthis to Gary many times, and I
will say it again.
Everybody mentions GaryHerriman's name because he does
such a good job.
He's been a president of April.
You know, you and your wife uhhave done a lot for this
industry.
And you told me that it wasn'tfor her, you wouldn't have been
(02:14):
able to make it this far.
Keith's kind of holding thetorch, your son now going
through it, and you um kind ofletting him take on the the the
rein, so to speak, in showplace, which I love to see that
because this just this issomething we need those
generations to come through.
So you uh Marianne's allowed youto be on the on the trip board.
(02:35):
You know, you guys go to toLegCon every year.
SPEAKER_00 (02:38):
It's been a couple years since I've been now, but
for for most of the time I Iwent most year most every year.
SPEAKER_01 (02:44):
Well, the years that count.
SPEAKER_00 (02:46):
Yeah, I've probably been there 20 times, so that's
what we're talking about.
SPEAKER_01 (02:50):
And so we wanted to we wanted to peel it back a
little bit.
And we wanted to start at thebeginning when Showplace kind of
first started.
I know that you had mentionedthat even in the beginning, you
were using a family vehicle tosometimes deliver some of the
product.
How hard was it?
Well, what first off, what wasthe decision going into let me
(03:10):
start a rent-to-owned companythat said rent-to-own is where I
want to go versus any othercompany?
SPEAKER_00 (03:16):
Well, again, our our initial business was just
selling TVs.
So it was it was uh used TVsfor, you know, for a lot the
same demographic that we'rehandling with our our rent to
home, but but we were justselling used TVs for$150 and you
know, making Frankenstein's outof trade-ins.
(03:36):
And and it was just one of thoseguys that I was buying large
sums of TV trade-ins off of aretailer, uh, the multiple
locations that let us buy histrade-ins that said, Did you
ever think about putting themout for$10 a week?
And that's when that's when wekind of got excited about it.
We had never heard of rent toown then.
(03:57):
And uh and this guy reallydidn't mention the rent-to-own
transaction.
He just said he used to take histrade-ins and put them out for
$10 a week himself.
So we we kind of really kind ofcooked on that idea as we drove
back with a box truck oftrade-ins.
And I talked to my partner atthat time about that and said,
(04:18):
What do you think aboutadvertising$10 a week?
And he said, I'm good.
Well, let's let's try it.
So that's what we did.
That's how we started being inthe rental business.
We didn't know it was a rentalbusiness.
We didn't think, I don't thinkwe even used the word rent at
that point.
But we uh I I just dictated on alegal pad to my wife on the
(04:40):
truck truck trip back, um, kindof a two-paragraph agreement of
how we would let people have TVsfor$10 a week.
And if they paid for 52 weeks,they were theirs.
So that's kind of our entry.
Along the way, within the firstfew months of doing that and
advertising that and gettingsome used TVs we would have
typically sold out withoutgetting much cash, um, but
(05:01):
waiting on the cash, um, westarted realizing there was such
a thing.
There was a store in town thatwas renting things, and it was
kind of similar.
So then we kind of absconded oneof their agreements so we could
kind of brush up my legalese onour agreement.
And uh, and that company waswasn't in business very long in
(05:22):
our town and left, and weremained, and then we started
renting new TVs and VCRs and youknow, so it it uh it evolved
from a used TV business.
SPEAKER_01 (05:32):
About about when did you start renting the TVs versus
when you had your own repairshop?
SPEAKER_00 (05:37):
We we started the repair shop in the spring of
eighty-two, and we startedrenting the TVs in the spring of
eighty-three.
SPEAKER_01 (05:44):
So about a year later, you decided, you know
what, I'm gonna try this guy'sidea.
Do you remember his name?
SPEAKER_00 (05:48):
Was he was he like anywhere to do with rental own,
or he was like he was not rent,he was uh Bill Schooneman TV and
appliance out of Cleveland, hadmultiple locations, I think five
or six at one point.
But when I was working with him,I think he still had he was
probably 75 years old and hestill had three stores left, and
we were just buying histrade-ins, and this was probably
in '83 when we started doingthat.
SPEAKER_01 (06:10):
So, Gary, as you grow in, as you're going along,
you have a TV repair business,and you start, you obviously
took a good idea and and reallyran with it, but now you're in
the rental business of TVs.
When did everything else startshowing up?
Because you said, you know, VCRsand stuff, and and was there
anybody who looked at you andsaid, wait a minute, you're not
(06:31):
selling this, you're renting it?
And they didn't go, Yeah, Idon't know about you know
opening up a line of credit forthat.
Or did you not have that issue,but you were still able to bring
in product?
SPEAKER_00 (06:41):
We started on a shoestring that we didn't borrow
any money.
Um, we built this, remodeledthis building myself uh out of
pocket out of her and I'sfull-time job wages, and uh and
got it open.
Uh, I think my partner and I put$15 each in a petty cash drawer
(07:03):
to make change with, and thatwas our investment.
You know, we opened a bankaccount, and maybe maybe we put
the first couple of daysreceipts in there was, you know,
put a dollar in to open achecking account and then start
putting receipts in it.
And we decided not to take anywages for quite a while.
We didn't take, I mean, we bothhad we all had jobs.
(07:24):
My my partner and his wife andme and my wife all had full-time
jobs, so we just didn't need themoney that came from that
business at all.
And we didn't take it for a longtime, you know.
And we let it build up untilthere was cash and and then uh
and then, you know, we would wewe got an opportunity to be a
(07:44):
zenith and a Sylvania uh dealer.
Um Quasar.
Quasar dealer.
Quasar, yeah.
Remember Quasar?
But uh and so they had floorplans for those, you know, where
they would you'd buy them,they'd deliver them, and then
you owed the floor plan companyfor the TV, and they come around
(08:04):
and did a monthly audit, and itand if you'd sold it, you owed
it for it, owed them for it.
And it wasn't spread out, youjust had to pay the whole
wholesale price.
SPEAKER_01 (08:13):
Okay.
So it was like it you sold asyou bought as you went.
If you sold it, you had to payfor it.
SPEAKER_00 (08:17):
Yeah, but but you know, we'd had build up enough
cash to afford if somebody gaveme 17 bucks for the first week's
payment and it was$430 cost TV,we had to pay$430 at the end of
the month for that.
Oh wow.
And and we just did it weekly.
Every every week, what we sold,so when they come and did the
audit, there wasn't much to payfor, which most of their dealers
(08:40):
waited till the auditor came.
We always just paid as we went.
But we had the we had built somecash in there because we weren't
taking anything.
We just would pay for them.
And we we never got upside down.
We just, you know, because wedidn't take cash.
And uh, and then I think about ayear in we started taking 75
bucks a week each.
My factory job at that time, Iwas clearing about 300 a week.
(09:02):
But so 75 a week wasn't wasn'tlike a full-time, you couldn't
live on 75 bucks a week.
But uh that's my partner and Ieach took 75 bucks a week for
maybe the next year or two.
And by then cash was prettygood, and we'd remodeled and
eventually we moved into adifferent location, and that
took money, but um, you know, itwas just just operating
(09:25):
inexpensively on a shoestring,uh, and not not we never got
debt.
We just didn't amass debt.
SPEAKER_01 (09:32):
So were they the ones that brought in the VCRs
and the other items or or likelike they they give you the TVs
at first?
Did they also do that with otherthings too?
SPEAKER_00 (09:39):
Stereos and VCRs.
There's you know, electronicdistributors back in those days
mostly.
You weren't buying directly fromZenith, you were buying from it
was the Tracy Wells Corporationin Columbus, Ohio, or or MAS
Distributing in Northeast Ohio.
You know, they'd bring you Sharpstereos or or Gibson appliances
or whatever.
We were just TV and electronicsfor uh probably till about for
(10:03):
about three or four years, andthen we added appliances in
about the fourth year, maybe,and probably furniture maybe in
about the fifth or sixth year.
So I mean it was just a step ata time back then, one location
for the first seven years.
SPEAKER_01 (10:17):
So when you went into these other, you know, like
let's say appliances, right?
When you go into appliances, wasthat also an easy transition, or
was there any friction therebecause you were a different
type of retailer?
SPEAKER_00 (10:29):
No, there was back in those days, uh other than
Kmart, because really Walmartwasn't around then.
Right.
Um, but there, you know, most ofthe TVs and appliance being sold
in in mid mid-sized town Americawere mom and pop TV and
appliance stores.
So it was very common to haveboth.
Okay.
Furniture was a little bitunique to add in there, but
(10:51):
there was furniture stores thatsold TVs too.
I mean, you could go to ElderBeerman's the department store
and buy furniture or TVs orappliances back in those days.
But uh, Sears, you know.
SPEAKER_01 (11:04):
So then the big transition wasn't really the
appliances or you know, theelectronics to smaller
electronics to appliances.
It was getting furniture.
SPEAKER_00 (11:11):
That was that was a pretty big transition.
You need a lot more footprint, alot more square footage to show
furniture for sure.
SPEAKER_01 (11:17):
Well what was a hurdle that you can say we made
it, but there would there was alittle bit of attraction.
I mean, you're saying the squarefootage, is that why you ended
up getting a bigger location?
SPEAKER_00 (11:27):
Yeah, in four in four years we moved intended to
take appliances and look atfurniture, and so we bought a
bigger building and and uh andhad the space.
We we also were renting movietapes then.
We we were a little miniblockbuster in our area, you
know, but you know, eventuallywe quit doing that.
And along the way, we bought acarpet store and tried to keep
the carpet department alive andsell people wall-to-wall carpet
(11:50):
and have installers that we putin their house.
We tried a lot of differentstuff.
SPEAKER_01 (11:56):
Like going back then, not really knowing some of
the things that you know now.
What were some of the firstvendor experiences like?
SPEAKER_00 (12:09):
Uh a really unique one was very early on when we
were a used TV shop, having a TVdistributor salesperson come up
and say, Have you thought abouthaving new TVs?
We have Zen, you know, this guyfrom Tracy Wells, Bob Broderick,
said, Can can I bring you adealership for Zenith
(12:31):
Televisions?
And we said, Yeah, I think thatthat's interesting.
And he said, Oh, by the way, Ihave a partner and we run a
rent-to-owned store in Columbus.
His name was Pete Bush, and hewas the first president of Ohio
Rental Dealers Association.
He formed it.
Um, and Bob was his partner, andBob was a salesman, uh, an
(12:52):
electronic salesman and anappliance.
So he set us up, and we, youknow, we said, well, we can only
rent so many new items becausewe can only afford to pay all at
once for so many things to growso fast, or we'll run out of
cash.
So we we kind of tethered, youknow, we we mostly wanted to
(13:13):
rent used because we owned thatstuff, and the margin was
better.
And when you had to buy new, youknow, your margin was less.
So and the cash flow out wasquick.
So we were careful with that aswe went.
But uh that that vendorexperience was really positive
for us because he was teachingus, teaching us how to be a new
(13:35):
new TV dealer, teaching teachingus a little bit about appliances
if we wanted to have them.
We didn't for a while, but uhand then teaching us about there
being this state association andthis regulatory effort to try to
get a law passed in Ohio thatwould that would codify the
agreement that we were doing.
(13:55):
And uh and so we got involved inthat and we joined the Ohio
Rental Dealers Association andand as the as the uh AG's office
worked with a group of rentaldealers and some national
lobbyists that companies likeRena Center, the bigger
companies, were helping fund andfuel this guy coming around and
(14:17):
helping us educate our AGs andgiving us sample language to
build, you know, to build statelaws.
And we got involved with that.
That's where I met DarylTissett, that's where I met
Ernie Llewellyn, uh John Buttsof Sunrise, a bunch of Ohio area
dealers.
SPEAKER_01 (14:34):
So when you're as you're as you're going into this
legal part, right, the RDAs,what was what's what was some of
the biggest hurdles?
Or let's just say even say one,what would you say has probably
been your league your yourbiggest hurdle in that era where
you're starting, you know, inthe early 80s or let's say even
late 80s.
What was the biggest hurdle,legal hurdle in that time frame?
SPEAKER_00 (14:55):
Well, um I think you know, until we got into the 90s
where we had Henry B.
Gonzalez trying to outlaw ourbusiness, but back earlier, I
would just say it it just tooktime and effort to to educate
the AG's office about what wewere trying to do and get them
to see the value we provided forfolks that needed it.
Um I I would say as far as alegal hurdle, it's the patience,
(15:21):
the effort, you know, the timeaway from business to talk to
state senators and state reps,not so much U.S., because this
was state law, you know.
But but but learning who thosepeople were, because at
20-something, I didn't know whothey were.
You know, when you voted, youmight have had seen who you were
(15:43):
voting for for president on TV,but I don't know much about any
of those state legislators.
SPEAKER_01 (15:48):
I I will say I don't think much has changed nowadays.
I think depending on what sideof the aisle you lean on, half
of the people you don't know,and you go, well, I hope that
they align with my, you know,with what I say, and they're
going down to take it becauseI've seen a lot of young people
do that, but we won't get wewon't get into that.
But so I know talking to thestrunks and talking to some
(16:10):
other people, there was a timeframe when you started rent to
own where there wasn't thetechnology to run the rent to
own as we know it today, right?
There was no computer systemsthat ran uh what we did.
And then eventually somethingcame along.
Um two questions.
So it's really the same thingtwo two ways, but number one,
(16:31):
how great was it?
Did it did it affect you to getonto one of these systems?
Did it make a huge difference inyour in your business?
And the other one is what wasthe name of the software that
you got into with?
SPEAKER_00 (16:42):
Yeah.
Well, when we first began, um,without any question, I I mean,
I was flying without anyknowledge, I had never been in a
rent owned store.
So I knew no way anybody elsedid this.
So I I bought my my mom hadgotten laid off as a bookkeeper
from someplace, and uh mypartner said, Yeah, we'll we can
(17:03):
hire your mom.
We can't pay her much more thanminimum wage, but but if she
needs a job, we'll hire her.
So my mom went to work, and momand I decided we would go out
and buy a recipe box and indexcards.
And when we rented the TV, momwould write the TV model number,
brand, serial number, and thenstart writing Friday dates, you
(17:28):
know, like like May 7th would be5 slash 7.
And when somebody'd make May7th's payment, she'd draw
incline through it.
And she would just keep themahead on dates, and the the top
of the card would say thebeginning date and the ending
date and the cash price.
And we just had concocted onthat truck trip back from that
(17:52):
guy's place that I was gonna letwe were gonna take 52 weekly
payments, and we were gonna makethe cash price, 26 of them, and
we were gonna let 50 percent ofwhat they paid us apply to the
cash price, and they could buyout any time they wanted early.
So that was a personalconcoction that uh ended up
being the way we decided tobuild Ohio State law.
(18:14):
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
I was just about to say uh youknow that a lot of people have
built it off that that model.
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
Well, in the early days, the bigguys only wanted to apply 35 or
40 percent.
And a lot of AG's offices didn'tlike that.
And and my 50 percent, I think,was winced at by a lot of my
peers when we were real young inthe business and first seeing
(18:35):
people, but it ended up beingadopted as a pretty common
practice, I think.
I'm not saying that I'm the onlyone that came up with that idea,
but I thought I was at the time.
I'm sure somebody else probablycame up with the same idea.
SPEAKER_01 (18:48):
And what was the name of that system that you
guys went to finally?
SPEAKER_00 (18:51):
Well, I mean, so so that was all manual.
And then we found out there weresuch things for small loan
companies that where they hadthose green cards.
And so a lot of us before we hadcomputers ended up getting away
from the index cards, andthere's a real nice ledger green
card that was a part of thesmall loan company business, and
we bought those.
You could buy them at an officesupply.
(19:13):
Um and then uh the very firstthing that happened
electronically is a guy my momhad previously worked with at
the telephone company was aprogrammer, computer programmer
back in the very early days whenyou rip pretty much could only
buy an IBM or a clone to an IBMcomputer.
And he helped us buy a clone andwrote a program that was just an
(19:35):
accounts receivable program forour payments.
There was no reports, no abilityto pull a report or do tallies
for you.
It just helped track theaccounts receivable for each
account for that customer.
And we run that for a coupleyears, and then we were at a
probably one of the earlyconventions and probably run
(19:56):
into David Goldman, and thefirst real rental software we
ever had was ideal.
And I think we probably did thatin about 80.
I'm gonna say we probably ranmanual for till 84, and then we
probably ran that that homemadeprogram from the guy at General
(20:17):
Telephone till maybe about 86 or7, and then we signed up with
David probably in 87 and uh 86or 7, something like that, and
had ideal software beforeVersaRent.
I was just about to say how it'scalled ideal software then.
SPEAKER_01 (20:31):
How was it how how big of a difference is it from
that system to the system theyhave now?
SPEAKER_00 (20:36):
Oh, night and day night and day.
I mean, uh, you know, there wassome reports, but not nearly
like there is now.
And there were, you know, wedidn't understand access to SQL
and any of that kind of stuffback then, you know.
Report writers were somethingthat took real smart people to
do deal with back in those days.
(20:57):
And and we and we were withDavid for a number of years, and
then and then we decided wewanted to try high touch, and we
were with high touch for 20years, and then in 13 we moved
back to Bursa Rent.
SPEAKER_01 (21:09):
You know, it's it's it's crazy because in the early
90s and early 2000s, I thinkhigh touch was the you know, was
the brand to go to.
SPEAKER_00 (21:15):
60 or 70 percent market share, I think, at one
point.
SPEAKER_01 (21:18):
Yeah, I mean they were they were just everywhere.
And pretty much, if you know howto run high touch, you pretty
much knew you could walk intoany store if you had the
clearance and kind of just gothrough.
SPEAKER_00 (21:26):
I mean, because even Rack had it.
I mean, I think they might havebought source code and had had
kind of their own version of it,but yeah.
Yeah, well it was everywhere.
SPEAKER_01 (21:33):
Yeah, when I started at Rack back then, that's
exactly what we had.
Uh, you know, take this out.
But as you're doing as you're asyou're going along, you start
this legal journey.
You're in the RDAs.
When did you first join April?
SPEAKER_00 (21:51):
Um I think my first time to come to convention, and
I probably joined just ahead ofthat, was nineteen.
In Washington, D.C.
It was Bill Kees' initial hiringinto April as the executive
director.
It was his first convention.
I remember meeting him on anescalator at the hotel there in
(22:12):
Washington that we stayed at.
And uh that would that wouldhave been, I don't remember what
month, but I mean it wassomewhere in that range of the
summertime of '89 when we joinedApril.
What made you join?
SPEAKER_01 (22:25):
And I know and I know that you were active in the
RDA, so I know that kind ofplayed a small foot.
But what made Gary and Showplacego, This is this is all over.
This is a lot of people, andthis is the right way to go.
Or at least what you thought atthe time would it might have
been the right way to go.
SPEAKER_00 (22:40):
Well, by then I'd been sharing ideas with friends
in the business at at ORDA, umlike Daryl and and Ernie, and
they were joining these things,and and they said, you know,
it's unlimited.
There's so many people to learnfrom.
And there's seminars, andthere's Edwin, and you know, I
(23:03):
mean, we had uh resources there,and and it was expensive as a
young, you know, fledgling ofcourse by by 89, I guess we'd
been in business formally forseven years and totally for
eight, including my front porch.
So we we weren't new to thebusiness.
It was just time for us to toget legit and be a part of the
(23:27):
industry.
And um and I think I was alreadya retail buying group member,
but I hadn't joined TRIB, Ithink, until about ninety-two,
ninety-one or two.
I think it was ninety-two.
Um so but yeah, all those thingswere network opportunities.
I just love to learn, you know.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (23:47):
So you mentioned a couple of names twice.
Daryl Tissett and Ernie.
SPEAKER_00 (23:53):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (23:55):
What I'm so interested in is everybody says
when they have an issue, theyhave a question, they go to
Gary.
Okay.
I'm just letting you know that.
They love you out here.
But Gary had to go to somebodyfirst.
It sounds like I'm gonna sayit's them, but I just in case,
who were are are those the otherthings.
SPEAKER_00 (24:16):
It was a combination.
I mean, uh, you know, I wouldsay Daryl and I and Ernie and I
had a lot of um vigorousdebates.
They were they were notdisrespectful, they weren't
arguments, they were debatesabout I do it this way and you
do it that way, and which isbest, and you know, we're trying
(24:36):
to make our point of how why howand why we do it.
So there was a lot of that at atstate association meetings.
But probably And so I Idefinitely learned that that
stretched each of us.
You know, we were juststretching each other.
And I think our experiencelevels were were pretty similar.
Ernie had been in the business alittle bit before us working for
another company and then startedhis own.
(24:58):
Uh Daryl started a couple,three, four years after I
started, but uh but was olderand had other business
experience.
So I mean, my businessexperience was pretty much just
this.
Um and but but truly the biggestmentors I think in those early
(25:18):
days was in the early 90s wasprobably Norm Slatten.
Really?
Um very creative, very uhdynamic.
Um and his his nephew LarrySutton and uh and and Cynthia
Baber Strunk, which you know isstill active in our industry in
Shannon.
Um this was pre-Shannon, but itwas you know, she was involved
(25:40):
in Tribb in the early 90s uh asa board member and and and and
and ran that group, you know,was president of that group at
one point.
Um learned a lot from them.
Um I would say uh LowrySchrader, um King Frog Reynolds
out of Nashville, Tennessee, wason that board.
King Frog Reynolds.
(26:01):
Yeah, he was uh he had 15 storesand uh um was very creative and
he was a lay preacher, so he hehe he preached Sundays.
Um he was a musician, reallygood musician.
Um and uh so he'd play at allthe furniture markets, they'd
(26:21):
set up a place and him and abunch of guys would pick up
instruments and just just jamtogether or whatever, and then
he had these these stores, butuh time spent with those guys in
those trib board meetings in theearly 90s was super, super
educational for me.
So uh I did learn a lot fromfrom Daryl Ernie and others
(26:42):
earlier like that, but but I Iwould just say I got it to a
different level with Slats andLowry and Larry Sutton and and
probably even you know back inthe day, uh uh Carico and you
know um some of the guys wereyounger than me.
You still learn from them.
I've I've learned so much fromMike Tissett, and he's way
(27:04):
younger than me.
But uh, you know, uh you hearhim say something about me, but
I think the learning has gonemore the other direction.
I've learned more from him thanhe ever learned from me, I
think.
SPEAKER_01 (27:13):
But but I think that's I think that's a good
thing to not only be able topass on some knowledge and
experience, but be able to takefrom all the people that are
around you and say, man, you dothis very well as in in a in a
different light.
You're you're doing this verywell.
I need to take this or I need totake that and compound it into a
better way of doing rent-to-own.
SPEAKER_00 (27:32):
Most of my favorite people in this industry have
always been the believer thatthe rising tide rises all ships
and you know, all those people Imentioned, I feel were very
abundant-minded and and justwanted to help everybody, you
know.
SPEAKER_01 (27:47):
Well, you know, you said something earlier about
you're having conversations withDavid and Ernie, or Daryl,
excuse me, David, Daryl andErnie, and and you're talking I
do it this way and you do itthat way.
What was it that Showplace didthat you would say, this is our
mark?
This is something we did alittle bit different than our
neighbors, and this was how wemade success.
SPEAKER_00 (28:10):
I got one, I got a good answer for that.
What we felt was differentiatedus from the competitors that
grew up in my first five to tenyears, which was Ronald King, a
store that built dozens ofstores out of, you know, out of
Ohio.
Um the the competitors that Ifound in my towns typically had
(28:33):
a bit of a reputation for hidingthe buyout price, the discounted
early purchase option price.
They didn't like the the storemanagers, didn't like losing BOR
to somebody paying off.
SPEAKER_01 (28:47):
I wish that was a problem.
That's probably a great problemto have if you have somebody
owning.
SPEAKER_00 (28:51):
That's the way we looked at it.
I got cash.
Yeah.
I mean, that was a great thingfor us.
So what we did was harness thatevery price tag and every
receipt that a customer gotshowed them their exact
discounted payout price.
And and we we used it as adifferentiator.
We care about you getting achance to pay off your home
(29:13):
mortgage faster and not pay allthat interest.
Right.
It's not the home mortgage, it'sthe refrigerator, it's the TV,
it's whatever it was.
But our big thing was they don'twant you to know when the payout
is.
We're happy to tell you everyweek.
But we do.
SPEAKER_01 (29:28):
We do because we want you to own it.
SPEAKER_00 (29:30):
Because we got a good character and we got a good
heart, and if we can help yousave money and buy it for the
lowest possible, one of my oneof my employees, one of my store
managers, coined the phrase,they had it in their back room,
and I loved it so much we put itall over our stores at one
point.
Is our our goal, our mission isto help you acquire ownership if
you want to at the lowestpossible price.
SPEAKER_01 (29:53):
Hey everyone, it's Pete Chao here from the RTO Show
Podcast, and I want to tell youabout a company that's making a
real difference in therent-to-owned space.
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I've seen firsthand how theyapproach marketing.
Let me tell you, it's not justabout ads.
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specifically for therent-to-owned industry.
Their e-commerce and leadgeneration strategies are built
(30:15):
to bring qualified leaders.
And did I mention that they areactively working with the
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Listen, these folks arepassionate problem solvers.
They don't just slap somethingtogether, they design, build,
and scale the kind of digitalretail tools your business needs
and your customers actuallywant.
So if you're serious aboutgrowing, reach out to WoWBrands
(30:38):
at WoWBrands.com.
I trust them, and I think youwill too.
SPEAKER_00 (30:43):
God, I think I remember that.
It was character for us.
It was just show them.
We are your advocate.
We're not here to hammer you.
We are here to help you.
We're here to take care of you.
Yes.
Yeah, no, I love that.
It helped build the culture.
And I've it was it was ouruniqueness at that time, you
know.
And I I don't think we ever leftthat.
You know, we still show on thereceipt what your EPO is.
(31:06):
Um, it's it's and and and Istill say there's a lot of
people that didn't want to showthat.
They want they didn't wantsomebody to know they're about
to pay off.
SPEAKER_01 (31:16):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, I mean, talking aboutthose moments, because there was
a lot of things that had to bepioneered in order to get to
where we were, whether it besomething that happened in the
way of a same as cash or howthat was calculated and thought
of, or you know, remindingeverybody an early purchase
option is not a bad thing.
(31:37):
A paid in full is not a badthing.
It's success all the way.
Well, well, it and not onlythat, it also leads to recurring
revenues in the sense thatsomebody feels like you had
gotten them to ownership.
They didn't pay you for noreason.
Super happy with you.
And and now they want to comeback for more.
So was there ever a time thatyou looked at Brentone as an
(31:57):
industry and thought, I don'tknow where this is going.
We might be in a little bit oftrouble.
There might be a future that's alittle bit, a little bit grim
right now or a little bitdifficult.
Or did you always have the idealike we are on an upward
trajectory, whether it's thisway or whether it's you know,
smooth, that it's going to behere no matter what?
SPEAKER_00 (32:17):
I I don't think I ever really doubted that we
could keep it alive.
I always had built in the backof my mind if we ever got
outlawed the the alternative,the way I would keep taking care
of these customers.
You know, and there's a coupledifferent ways.
But I mean, rent to rent's one.
And with a a building rewardspoints thing, and you can buy
(32:40):
something at the end with yourrewards.
I mean, I I was concocting waysif something bad happened.
I never really felt like wewouldn't continue, like there
wasn't a heavy percentage ofdemographics that needed us.
Uh not not which very much of,even used us.
So I always thought theopportunity for growth was
unlimited.
And I I was just always veryoptimistic about the future of
(33:02):
the business.
And I also watched in the earlydays the guys that I felt maybe
didn't have the greatestcharacter and was in it for
quick money, they come and went.
They they either they eitherfailed or they got it to a point
where they could sell and walkwith some cash, and they did.
And what remained was managers,operators, people that keep
(33:26):
people that did have goodcharacter, that took care of
customers long term, built goodbig companies.
SPEAKER_01 (33:32):
You know, the the Larry Sutton's, you know, of the
world, you know, buddies and youknow, when you champions you say
Larry Sutton, who built, youknow, what was it, a hundred
stores at some point orsomething?
SPEAKER_00 (33:43):
Well, I think Champion had a hundred and some
stores.
I think Larry owned a quarter ofthem, maybe twenty, twenty or
five or thirty of them.
Maybe I'm saying that right.
He had some partners in thatgroup.
SPEAKER_01 (33:51):
And then he decides to make a complete different
turn and go to you know thetower business.
Wheels and tires explode thatbecause I mean he he's just
killing it, right?
So people sometimes don't knowabout that.
They don't know about thesuccesses.
We do, right?
Because we're in the industryand we know these people, and we
(34:13):
can walk through the halls ofApril, we can walk through the
halls of the RTO worlds and andthe conventions and the meeting
of the minds, and we can seethose people and say, man, that
guy is success because he caresabout his customer, he cares
about his business, he caresabout his employees.
That guy over there does.
And we can mention the Ernie'sand the Darrell's and and how
they've been able to transitiondown the line, you know, you
with Keith.
But those are inside stories.
(34:35):
You ever what was one of thesome of the hardest things that
you had to overcome as far aswhat people thought of rent to
own during your time?
Because there's been a lot ofcomp monikers that have come
with rent to own, and you'relike, you guys are taking
advantage, you guys are sellingit at an astronomical price, and
you know, without knowing thebusiness model or everything
that's included in the rentalagreement, included by you know,
(34:55):
doing a service, no credit,making sure that we take it out
to you and from you for free, orpicking it up if you ever decide
that you don't want it at thatpoint, and then come back a week
later and you still don't getcharged for it.
You don't know about the cost ofthe truck, the cost of the
insurance, the truck, you know,they have no idea of that.
But they get this idea in theirhead that, you know, it's a
disadvantage.
SPEAKER_00 (35:12):
Because your gross margin.
They don't understand your netmargin, but they can see your
gross margin.
Correct.
SPEAKER_01 (35:20):
What were some of the biggest trials and
tribulations of getting thatoverturned in your area and
saying, you know what, it's notthat bad.
Let me get you to a same ascash, let me get you to a paid
info so that you can own this.
And people going, nah, Gary, Iknow you're gonna charge me a
whole lot and I don't want to dothis.
SPEAKER_00 (35:35):
I never felt the resistance from the customer
base.
No.
I always felt gratitude from thecustomers that they they hadn't
had a new refrigerator everbefore.
They'd bought used or somebodygave them one or whatever.
I always felt gratitude from thecustomer base.
We tried to explain theagreement really well.
(35:56):
Um, they knew what they weredoing.
Yeah.
And I never really felt thatkind of uh mistrust from the
customer base.
It was more the uh uneducated umdo-gooders that didn't
understand what you just said,all the backside and you know,
costs um that might ask a familymember of mine, even might say,
(36:19):
How do you sleep at night?
You charge too much.
Why would anybody do that?
You know, because they've neverbeen in that situation, or they
don't understand that lack ofobligation and the freedom that
some people desire if they wantto buy something and they're not
sure they're gonna like it.
You can't do that at the mom andpop TV and appliance store.
(36:40):
You can't do that at Kmart, youknow.
SPEAKER_02 (36:42):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (36:42):
You but you could do it with us, and after a couple
weeks, if you really didn't likeit, you just return it.
You know, we couldn't doanything about it.
We were gonna try to see if wecould solve the problem for you,
but at the end of the day, ifyou wanted to return it, you got
to return it.
Right.
And uh so those those benefitsand extra services, you know, if
(37:03):
something went wrong, givingthem a loan or do all the little
extra things that we all know wedo with this business, um all
the way up to something thatpaid out last month.
There's not many owners I knowthat wouldn't replace something,
you know.
Yeah, we replace it if if it'sstill on rent, we replace it.
(37:24):
But if it paid out just lastmonth, there's not many I know
that wouldn't go ahead and fixit for them or replace it.
You know, I mean do their bestby the customer.
Yeah, you just you know, it's alittle bit over the line of what
was agreed on, but you'rethinking long-term here.
You just want them to love you.
SPEAKER_01 (37:42):
You know, sometimes it's hard to be loved by
somebody who doesn't know what'sgoing on.
You know, sometimes you havethat child and it's like, I love
you, but you know, I have todiscipline you.
Um If you had something to say,we're gonna we're gonna we're
gonna start from the beginningall the way through.
You started in repairing TVs,you come a little bit further,
(38:03):
you start selling TVs, you startgetting lines, you start putting
more in there, you come acrosssome trials and tribulations of,
you know, I've got to make surethat I have it paid.
I'm not gonna take on as bigcredit amount.
So therefore my growth mighthave been stunted a little bit
because we didn't take on a youknow$500,000 worth of debt in
the front end because we wantedto make sure that we did it
right.
(38:23):
But you have other people thatmight go down that road.
They might take that that wayand go, hey, listen, I'm okay
with taking on that debt becauseI know that I can build it quick
or whatever the case is.
Coming into these generationsnow, 2025, and we're talking
about moving ahead.
What's something that you wouldtell somebody with all the
knowledge and with all theexperience that you've built out
throughout the years?
What's something you would say,I think this would benefit you
(38:45):
the most?
SPEAKER_00 (38:48):
Well, I will have to say, and so so that I uh I make
sure this is clear, we didn'tstart out with debt, but we grew
so fast at one stretch that Idid have a credit finance group,
the you know, a commercialfinance group that we we built a
line of credit with, and we didowe, you know, I think uh gosh,
(39:10):
what we owe.
I think we had a six hundredthousand dollar line of credit
at one point, but we were, youknow, we were growing so fast,
but it was all working out, youknow.
I mean, we we always had themoney to pay the payment that
was required until that bigthing happened in the 90s where
the commercial credit companiesblacklisted all the rent-owned
(39:31):
companies, and they called myloan.
And I I had to get out of I hadto reduce, I think we were in
the seven or eight hundredthousand dollar area at the
time, and I had to reduce thatto two seventy-five, and they
gave me ninety days to do it, orI had or they were calling the
whole loan.
What year, what around what yearwas that?
I'm thinking that wasninety-one, ninety-two.
SPEAKER_01 (39:54):
It's funny.
I was talking to uh Whalenearlier and he mentioned the
same thing that at some pointeven.
SPEAKER_00 (39:59):
Borg Warner acceptance BWAC was the the big
one, and and we we used ChryslerFirst at the time.
Um there was there was a numberof those commercial credit
organizations that floor plannedfurniture and appliance
retailers typically, but they'dthey developed a rent-to-own arm
to help us grow, and and theylet some of the fast money early
(40:25):
entrepreneurs of the industryget real deep and abscond, you
know, spend the money and thencouldn't manage the volume and
go bankrupt.
And so they blacklisted us, youknow.
And we'd never made a latepayment.
You know, I got real mad.
My guy called me up and he said,Well, I gotta I can keep you at
the branch level, which is 275or under, and Chicago won't know
(40:49):
about it.
I can keep you in Cincinnati,Chicago won't know about it.
But Chicago said, you got to getrid of this guy.
But he said, I'll keep you atthe branch level.
And I had a$600,000 line, andhe'd let me go over line as we
were growing.
I owed him$700,000,$8,000,000,$900,000 at times, never made a
late payment.
Um, and it agitated me so muchas a young, immature businessman
(41:10):
that I told him, you know whatyou can do with that$275?
I don't need it.
And I went looking around atlocal banks and uncles and
everybody else to figure outthat about two weeks later I
called him back up and said, I'msuch an asshole.
I'm sorry.
I need that 275.
And uh, you know, and I and Ihad I found another way to get
(41:32):
some to help, you know, a guythat had some some dough that he
was will I was willing to payhim more interest than he was
getting at the bank.
And uh combined and we and weshrunk and we shared, you know,
I went to all my employees andsaid, This is a this is just the
worst thing that's everhappened.
The big guys are after us, youknow, the banks are after us,
and uh we just got to pulltogether and share product and
(41:53):
and it was some of the bestteaming momentum we ever had.
And man, we got cash-friendlyquick and you know, got out of
debt.
And uh, but yeah, that wouldthat was a really big challenge.
SPEAKER_01 (42:05):
So would the message going forward be be very careful
with your money?
SPEAKER_00 (42:08):
Yeah, just you know, um I don't know that we'll ever
see I think our industry is moreunderstood now, so I don't ever
see a complete exit.
You know, we've taught bankswhat to do.
You s you sometimes have toteach your own banker if you're
if you're using a bank.
And we did we use Chase Bank Onebefore they got bought out by
Chase.
Bank One helped me immenselyafter that.
(42:29):
I taught a commercial lenderwhat our business was and spent
a lot of time with him in hishobby, you know, fly fishing and
and messing around, ducksunlimited with him, and you
know, just building a greatrelationship.
So he'd give me the time toexplain the business, and then
they they gave us a line ofcredit that was all I ever
(42:51):
needed after that.
But uh, and I think, and thatwas something that Tribb brought
in a uh seminar one year at aTRIP convention, a meeting of
the mines out in I thinkPhoenix.
They brought in a guy, SummersWhite, that taught us all how to
build a bank relationship.
This was right after thatdebacle with the commercial
(43:11):
lenders.
But uh yeah, I knew a new persongetting in, I'd just say, don't
go hog wild on the debt.
Um, don't borrow more than youknow you can pay back, you know.
SPEAKER_01 (43:22):
Um That's that's a tough, that's a that's a tough
one.
SPEAKER_00 (43:25):
And and and that may mean for us in those days, it
was we knew what we made at herbookkeeping job and me at the
factory.
And I wouldn't I wouldn't borrowmore than I knew and knew safely
what the business would provide,and and I could add to it out of
and still buy groceries, youknow.
And um but yeah, I mean it's itgets down to it's fairly simple
(43:50):
math.
Um and you know what you'regonna rent this for and what
what and how much you can keepit on rent.
Um you know, back in those days.
Whatever you put in the in thedisplay room, you could rent.
And I and I'd say today we allprobably are at that place where
there's enough competition,enough other ways to get things
(44:12):
that you can't rent everythingyou put in the store today.
Back then it was not that way.
If you had something nice andnew that went on that floor, it
was on rent in a week or two,you know.
And you knew what rent you weregetting.
And and and the ability tocollect it at a higher percent I
think was better then than it isnow.
(44:33):
Of course, we have a lot of conyou know, uh arrived at ethics
that in all honesty, we probablymy partner would tell me some
stories about how he did apickup and we wouldn't dare do
that today.
It was after hours and you know,sneaking around and you know, it
(44:53):
was we had to learn our lessonsabout that.
And and and we, you know, Ican't deny we probably did a few
things that we would never dotoday.
I wouldn't let anybody do dotoday, but but but we we didn't
we probably had some years wherewe didn't charge anything off
the whole year.
Wow, nothing.
That's that's great.
I I think we had a stretch whenmy partner was in charge of all
(45:15):
of our collections, and we wereprobably up to three or four
stores at this time.
We had a couple years stretch,we didn't charge anything off.
SPEAKER_01 (45:22):
Wow.
But so kind of getting to theend of this, I'm curious.
In all your years and everythingthat you've rented, everything
that you've had, tell me an itemthat you weren't sure about that
just literally took off.
SPEAKER_00 (45:39):
Yeah, well, probably a couple things come to mind.
One is that it took us threetimes to get into the computer
business before it was everprofitable.
Two times I lost my shirt and wesaid, we're never in computers
again.
But, you know, obviously timewent on, they got more
user-friendly, and I figured outhow to turn one on.
(46:00):
But uh I I would think probablyone of the biggest uh surprise
items that went crazy wasprobably riding lawnmowers.
No kidding.
And I and I think I think Darylwas he or I won, but I think it
was him was the first one thatdid it, and the other one, we
were talking with each other alot, so it wasn't long.
(46:22):
Whoever did it first, the otherone did it next pretty quick.
Uh, I think he rented themfirst.
And uh and that got to be kindof opened your eyes to
something.
Well, I mean, we were in ruralareas, you know.
I not many of my customers livedin an apartment in a city.
All my customers rented some1920 built home in a
working-class neighborhood whereall the people that used to live
(46:45):
in that had moved to the suburbsof that little town, and it was
where you could rent cheapest.
And they built some of thosehouses into duplexes.
Yep.
And that, you know, those werethe neighborhoods we were in.
Um, and there was a lot ofpeople at the edges of town on a
trailer on an acre, you know,and and they were rental
clients.
(47:05):
Um, you know, maybe maybe thetrailer parks, they just needed
a push mower.
But but anybody that had much ofa lawn You want to get a rider.
They wanted a rider.
Yeah, they wanted a rider.
And that that that surprised mehow well that went.
And um along the way, when zeroturns came, and most of my
(47:26):
compatriots here, peers at therental business, said they're
just too much money.
Well, I've you know, we alwaystried a lot of stuff and kept
what worked.
Zero turn riding mowers is agreat rent-owned item.
SPEAKER_01 (47:39):
Uh, they they have been.
I actually have seen that.
When when did you start rentingyour first mowers?
SPEAKER_00 (47:46):
Let's see.
I would say mid-90s, 95.
Yeah, 96.
Yeah.
That's about when they startedcoming out.
We did it before I ever saw onein an Aaron's, but once we
started doing it, Aaron saw itright away.
And uh, I don't know if they sawit at Daryl's area or my area,
but but uh it wasn't long afterthat that Aaron's was renting
(48:08):
them.
Rack took longer before theyrented them, but uh um but yeah,
it's uh it that was a bigsurprise.
It's a it's a pretty stableincome.
And uh and we we'd offer aput-up program, you know, kind
of like a motorcycle insurancegives you offers you a put-up
(48:28):
program.
So you don't have to payinsurance all year long if
you're not gonna write if you'regonna put it in a garage.
Well, that's kind of what we do.
We'd say, look, you know, at theend of October, you can you're
not gonna use it.
You can pay us one payment amonth, one week a month, and
we'll apply that towards theiryour purchase price, but that's
all you owe us during the offseason is just one week a month,
(48:51):
and you get a hold and keep yourmower, and we didn't have to
bring it back and store it.
SPEAKER_01 (48:57):
Which could be a nightmare if you have too many
on rent.
Yeah.
That's a great idea.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (49:01):
So we we did that with window air conditioners
too.
We'd we'd get people onto awindow air conditioner, and they
didn't didn't want to keep itand spend the money in the
winter, but we could get adecent percentage of them to
keep it by paying one week amonth.
And and it and it eventuallyjust paid out, you know, but at
least they got to keep it andthey, you know, the it was
(49:23):
efficient for them not to haveto start over again next year.
And uh and it kept us fromhaving to bring them back and
jack them in and out of people'swindows, which was damaging
things.
And you know, somebody mightsay, well, I'd rather re-rent it
in a new term next year, makemore money on that one unit.
That's not the way we looked atit.
We looked at it long-term, likethat customer got to own it.
(49:46):
They're happy with us, it wasmore efficient for them.
If somebody else was trying torent it each season to them,
they'd figure out the characterthere.
They want to come here, youknow.
So it was all always about thelong-term, you know, long-term
relationship.
And that's what makes showplaceshowplace.
Yeah, I think that's that's aunique part.
I mean, and I think a lot of thegood dealers in this industry do
(50:09):
exactly the same thing.
I don't I think it's just uniqueshowplace, but it was our
difference against the big guyswhen we were really getting
going.
SPEAKER_01 (50:20):
Well, as usual, it's always a great conversation.
I love talking to Gary all thetime because the truth is I
learned something every singletime we have a conversation.
But, you know, coming to an end,I gotta say, I've loved doing
the Legend series.
I love being able to speak tosome of the people that have
been not only in the beginningsof this industry, but have seen
(50:40):
all the way to where it's comeand their contributions that
they've had along the way,whether it's going against, you
know, the B Gonzalez's in inTexas, or whether it be, you
know, just figuring out this isour RDA, we have to make this
work in our state.
This is what you do differently,this is what I do differently,
and how we make that work forourselves, what products we
bring in at whatever time.
(51:01):
And you know, maybe some thingswork and some things don't.
You know, I've never had anissue with computers, but then I
hear that there has been.
So you always, you know, thosedifferences.
Um, and it's really, it's reallyjust great to hear, you know,
how we've made it so far andthrough the through the trials
and tribulations to be able tohear in a thriving industry,
regardless of what's going onaround us in 2025, to say, I
(51:24):
think there's a pretty good lookfor next year.
SPEAKER_00 (51:26):
Yeah, you know, and keep on going.
I'm very optimistic about theindustry, uh, the young leaders
that are coming up coming upthrough it.
Um proud of my son doing a greatjob.
Um, and there's there's a lot ofgood young operators at this
point.
And uh we just got to teach themto think long term, do the right
(51:48):
thing.
Yeah, we gotta teach them thatstuff because it always works
out.
SPEAKER_01 (51:51):
Keep the main thing the main thing.
Yeah, I always say that.
But we appreciate you guyssitting here with us.
This is our legend series, andwe're kind of going back and
dialing in from where we were towhere we are now.
We are so appreciative that youguys stayed with us.
If you have any questions,please hit me up at the show.
It's Pete at the RTO ShowPodcast.com, or you can see me
on Facebook, Instagram,LinkedIn, and now where you're
(52:11):
gonna see this on YouTube andkind of just give us a shout.
If you have any questions forGary or any of our legends,
please let me know because I'dlove to find out what it is that
you were thinking about and whatI may need to ask the next one.
But we do appreciate your time.
We appreciate everything.
If you have any questions thatyou don't know about, make sure
that you hit up April.
Apro is a very big resource, youknow, at rto-hq.org and uh keep
(52:32):
them and everybody else in yourprayers with the disaster relief
that they're doing nowadays.
And I will tell you guys asalways, regardless of where you
see us, Gary, I'm so glad thatyou're with us.
I'm glad that you're here, and Iwill I'm gonna share a drink
with you a little bit later.
All right.
SPEAKER_02 (52:44):
All right, sounds good.
SPEAKER_01 (52:45):
Get your collections low to get your sales high.
Have a great one.
Hi, I'm Peach Cow.
(00:02):
You may know me from the RTOShow podcast, but today I'm
doing something a little bitdifferent.
Apro and Wild Brands havelaunched a special project to
bring the story of our industryto life like never before.
They've asked me to sit downwith some of the true legends of
Rent to Own, capturing theirstories, their impact, and their
vision for the future.
And now I get to share thoseconversations with you straight
from the legends themselves.
(00:23):
All of this leads to somethinggroundbreaking though.
A new book.
The Rent to Own Revolution, adefinitive history of advocacy
and consumer access, written byApril's CEO Charles Schlitterman
and WoW Brand CEO Brian Kraft.
The book explores the grassrootsof RTO, the advocacy that has
defined it, and the future thatwe're building together.
Here's where you come in.
We're giving away free copiesonce the book is released.
(00:46):
Just head over toRTORevolution.com and sign up
for a chance to receive a copyin early 2026.
Don't miss the chance to beamong the first to hold this
piece of RTO history.
That's rtorevolution.com.
Check it out and become a partof RTO History.
(01:12):
Hello, everybody.
My name is Pete Chow.
Welcome to the RTO Show podcast.
Today we're doing anotherlegends, and you've seen this
legend before, but this one's ina different capacity.
Right now, we're kind of peelingback some onions of the history
of what Show Place has been,where Gary Fairman is going, but
more importantly, how we gothere.
(01:33):
The the times that led us to thegreatest part of Into Own era
right now is where we're sittingat.
And I love the fact that I cansit across from him now because
uh, you know, there are so manypeople that didn't make it.
You know, some some businessesthat came through and they
stopped and didn't find a way,or it was just their time to
call it a day.
Um, and we lost a few peoplethis year.
(01:54):
We're sorry to say that, but wethey are remembered.
And I will always say, I've saidthis to Gary many times, and I
will say it again.
Everybody mentions GaryHerriman's name because he does
such a good job.
He's been a president of April.
You know, you and your wife uhhave done a lot for this
industry.
And you told me that it wasn'tfor her, you wouldn't have been
(02:14):
able to make it this far.
Keith's kind of holding thetorch, your son now going
through it, and you um kind ofletting him take on the the the
rein, so to speak, in showplace, which I love to see that
because this just this issomething we need those
generations to come through.
So you uh Marianne's allowed youto be on the on the trip board.
(02:35):
You know, you guys go to toLegCon every year.
SPEAKER_00 (02:38):
It's been a couple years since I've been now, but
for for most of the time I Iwent most year most every year.
SPEAKER_01 (02:44):
Well, the years that count.
SPEAKER_00 (02:46):
Yeah, I've probably been there 20 times, so that's
what we're talking about.
SPEAKER_01 (02:50):
And so we wanted to we wanted to peel it back a
little bit.
And we wanted to start at thebeginning when Showplace kind of
first started.
I know that you had mentionedthat even in the beginning, you
were using a family vehicle tosometimes deliver some of the
product.
How hard was it?
Well, what first off, what wasthe decision going into let me
(03:10):
start a rent-to-owned companythat said rent-to-own is where I
want to go versus any othercompany?
SPEAKER_00 (03:16):
Well, again, our our initial business was just
selling TVs.
So it was it was uh used TVsfor, you know, for a lot the
same demographic that we'rehandling with our our rent to
home, but but we were justselling used TVs for$150 and you
know, making Frankenstein's outof trade-ins.
(03:36):
And and it was just one of thoseguys that I was buying large
sums of TV trade-ins off of aretailer, uh, the multiple
locations that let us buy histrade-ins that said, Did you
ever think about putting themout for$10 a week?
And that's when that's when wekind of got excited about it.
We had never heard of rent toown then.
(03:57):
And uh and this guy reallydidn't mention the rent-to-own
transaction.
He just said he used to take histrade-ins and put them out for
$10 a week himself.
So we we kind of really kind ofcooked on that idea as we drove
back with a box truck oftrade-ins.
And I talked to my partner atthat time about that and said,
(04:18):
What do you think aboutadvertising$10 a week?
And he said, I'm good.
Well, let's let's try it.
So that's what we did.
That's how we started being inthe rental business.
We didn't know it was a rentalbusiness.
We didn't think, I don't thinkwe even used the word rent at
that point.
But we uh I I just dictated on alegal pad to my wife on the
(04:40):
truck truck trip back, um, kindof a two-paragraph agreement of
how we would let people have TVsfor$10 a week.
And if they paid for 52 weeks,they were theirs.
So that's kind of our entry.
Along the way, within the firstfew months of doing that and
advertising that and gettingsome used TVs we would have
typically sold out withoutgetting much cash, um, but
(05:01):
waiting on the cash, um, westarted realizing there was such
a thing.
There was a store in town thatwas renting things, and it was
kind of similar.
So then we kind of absconded oneof their agreements so we could
kind of brush up my legalese onour agreement.
And uh, and that company waswasn't in business very long in
(05:22):
our town and left, and weremained, and then we started
renting new TVs and VCRs and youknow, so it it uh it evolved
from a used TV business.
SPEAKER_01 (05:32):
About about when did you start renting the TVs versus
when you had your own repairshop?
SPEAKER_00 (05:37):
We we started the repair shop in the spring of
eighty-two, and we startedrenting the TVs in the spring of
eighty-three.
SPEAKER_01 (05:44):
So about a year later, you decided, you know
what, I'm gonna try this guy'sidea.
Do you remember his name?
SPEAKER_00 (05:48):
Was he was he like anywhere to do with rental own,
or he was like he was not rent,he was uh Bill Schooneman TV and
appliance out of Cleveland, hadmultiple locations, I think five
or six at one point.
But when I was working with him,I think he still had he was
probably 75 years old and hestill had three stores left, and
we were just buying histrade-ins, and this was probably
in '83 when we started doingthat.
SPEAKER_01 (06:10):
So, Gary, as you grow in, as you're going along,
you have a TV repair business,and you start, you obviously
took a good idea and and reallyran with it, but now you're in
the rental business of TVs.
When did everything else startshowing up?
Because you said, you know, VCRsand stuff, and and was there
anybody who looked at you andsaid, wait a minute, you're not
(06:31):
selling this, you're renting it?
And they didn't go, Yeah, Idon't know about you know
opening up a line of credit forthat.
Or did you not have that issue,but you were still able to bring
in product?
SPEAKER_00 (06:41):
We started on a shoestring that we didn't borrow
any money.
Um, we built this, remodeledthis building myself uh out of
pocket out of her and I'sfull-time job wages, and uh and
got it open.
Uh, I think my partner and I put$15 each in a petty cash drawer
(07:03):
to make change with, and thatwas our investment.
You know, we opened a bankaccount, and maybe maybe we put
the first couple of daysreceipts in there was, you know,
put a dollar in to open achecking account and then start
putting receipts in it.
And we decided not to take anywages for quite a while.
We didn't take, I mean, we bothhad we all had jobs.
(07:24):
My my partner and his wife andme and my wife all had full-time
jobs, so we just didn't need themoney that came from that
business at all.
And we didn't take it for a longtime, you know.
And we let it build up untilthere was cash and and then uh
and then, you know, we would wewe got an opportunity to be a
(07:44):
zenith and a Sylvania uh dealer.
Um Quasar.
Quasar dealer.
Quasar, yeah.
Remember Quasar?
But uh and so they had floorplans for those, you know, where
they would you'd buy them,they'd deliver them, and then
you owed the floor plan companyfor the TV, and they come around
(08:04):
and did a monthly audit, and itand if you'd sold it, you owed
it for it, owed them for it.
And it wasn't spread out, youjust had to pay the whole
wholesale price.
SPEAKER_01 (08:13):
Okay.
So it was like it you sold asyou bought as you went.
If you sold it, you had to payfor it.
SPEAKER_00 (08:17):
Yeah, but but you know, we'd had build up enough
cash to afford if somebody gaveme 17 bucks for the first week's
payment and it was$430 cost TV,we had to pay$430 at the end of
the month for that.
Oh wow.
And and we just did it weekly.
Every every week, what we sold,so when they come and did the
audit, there wasn't much to payfor, which most of their dealers
(08:40):
waited till the auditor came.
We always just paid as we went.
But we had the we had built somecash in there because we weren't
taking anything.
We just would pay for them.
And we we never got upside down.
We just, you know, because wedidn't take cash.
And uh, and then I think about ayear in we started taking 75
bucks a week each.
My factory job at that time, Iwas clearing about 300 a week.
(09:02):
But so 75 a week wasn't wasn'tlike a full-time, you couldn't
live on 75 bucks a week.
But uh that's my partner and Ieach took 75 bucks a week for
maybe the next year or two.
And by then cash was prettygood, and we'd remodeled and
eventually we moved into adifferent location, and that
took money, but um, you know, itwas just just operating
(09:25):
inexpensively on a shoestring,uh, and not not we never got
debt.
We just didn't amass debt.
SPEAKER_01 (09:32):
So were they the ones that brought in the VCRs
and the other items or or likelike they they give you the TVs
at first?
Did they also do that with otherthings too?
SPEAKER_00 (09:39):
Stereos and VCRs.
There's you know, electronicdistributors back in those days
mostly.
You weren't buying directly fromZenith, you were buying from it
was the Tracy Wells Corporationin Columbus, Ohio, or or MAS
Distributing in Northeast Ohio.
You know, they'd bring you Sharpstereos or or Gibson appliances
or whatever.
We were just TV and electronicsfor uh probably till about for
(10:03):
about three or four years, andthen we added appliances in
about the fourth year, maybe,and probably furniture maybe in
about the fifth or sixth year.
So I mean it was just a step ata time back then, one location
for the first seven years.
SPEAKER_01 (10:17):
So when you went into these other, you know, like
let's say appliances, right?
When you go into appliances, wasthat also an easy transition, or
was there any friction therebecause you were a different
type of retailer?
SPEAKER_00 (10:29):
No, there was back in those days, uh other than
Kmart, because really Walmartwasn't around then.
Right.
Um, but there, you know, most ofthe TVs and appliance being sold
in in mid mid-sized town Americawere mom and pop TV and
appliance stores.
So it was very common to haveboth.
Okay.
Furniture was a little bitunique to add in there, but
(10:51):
there was furniture stores thatsold TVs too.
I mean, you could go to ElderBeerman's the department store
and buy furniture or TVs orappliances back in those days.
But uh, Sears, you know.
SPEAKER_01 (11:04):
So then the big transition wasn't really the
appliances or you know, theelectronics to smaller
electronics to appliances.
It was getting furniture.
SPEAKER_00 (11:11):
That was that was a pretty big transition.
You need a lot more footprint, alot more square footage to show
furniture for sure.
SPEAKER_01 (11:17):
Well what was a hurdle that you can say we made
it, but there would there was alittle bit of attraction.
I mean, you're saying the squarefootage, is that why you ended
up getting a bigger location?
SPEAKER_00 (11:27):
Yeah, in four in four years we moved intended to
take appliances and look atfurniture, and so we bought a
bigger building and and uh andhad the space.
We we also were renting movietapes then.
We we were a little miniblockbuster in our area, you
know, but you know, eventuallywe quit doing that.
And along the way, we bought acarpet store and tried to keep
the carpet department alive andsell people wall-to-wall carpet
(11:50):
and have installers that we putin their house.
We tried a lot of differentstuff.
SPEAKER_01 (11:56):
Like going back then, not really knowing some of
the things that you know now.
What were some of the firstvendor experiences like?
SPEAKER_00 (12:09):
Uh a really unique one was very early on when we
were a used TV shop, having a TVdistributor salesperson come up
and say, Have you thought abouthaving new TVs?
We have Zen, you know, this guyfrom Tracy Wells, Bob Broderick,
said, Can can I bring you adealership for Zenith
(12:31):
Televisions?
And we said, Yeah, I think thatthat's interesting.
And he said, Oh, by the way, Ihave a partner and we run a
rent-to-owned store in Columbus.
His name was Pete Bush, and hewas the first president of Ohio
Rental Dealers Association.
He formed it.
Um, and Bob was his partner, andBob was a salesman, uh, an
(12:52):
electronic salesman and anappliance.
So he set us up, and we, youknow, we said, well, we can only
rent so many new items becausewe can only afford to pay all at
once for so many things to growso fast, or we'll run out of
cash.
So we we kind of tethered, youknow, we we mostly wanted to
(13:13):
rent used because we owned thatstuff, and the margin was
better.
And when you had to buy new, youknow, your margin was less.
So and the cash flow out wasquick.
So we were careful with that aswe went.
But uh that that vendorexperience was really positive
for us because he was teachingus, teaching us how to be a new
(13:35):
new TV dealer, teaching teachingus a little bit about appliances
if we wanted to have them.
We didn't for a while, but uhand then teaching us about there
being this state association andthis regulatory effort to try to
get a law passed in Ohio thatwould that would codify the
agreement that we were doing.
(13:55):
And uh and so we got involved inthat and we joined the Ohio
Rental Dealers Association andand as the as the uh AG's office
worked with a group of rentaldealers and some national
lobbyists that companies likeRena Center, the bigger
companies, were helping fund andfuel this guy coming around and
(14:17):
helping us educate our AGs andgiving us sample language to
build, you know, to build statelaws.
And we got involved with that.
That's where I met DarylTissett, that's where I met
Ernie Llewellyn, uh John Buttsof Sunrise, a bunch of Ohio area
dealers.
SPEAKER_01 (14:34):
So when you're as you're as you're going into this
legal part, right, the RDAs,what was what's what was some of
the biggest hurdles?
Or let's just say even say one,what would you say has probably
been your league your yourbiggest hurdle in that era where
you're starting, you know, inthe early 80s or let's say even
late 80s.
What was the biggest hurdle,legal hurdle in that time frame?
SPEAKER_00 (14:55):
Well, um I think you know, until we got into the 90s
where we had Henry B.
Gonzalez trying to outlaw ourbusiness, but back earlier, I
would just say it it just tooktime and effort to to educate
the AG's office about what wewere trying to do and get them
to see the value we provided forfolks that needed it.
Um I I would say as far as alegal hurdle, it's the patience,
(15:21):
the effort, you know, the timeaway from business to talk to
state senators and state reps,not so much U.S., because this
was state law, you know.
But but but learning who thosepeople were, because at
20-something, I didn't know whothey were.
You know, when you voted, youmight have had seen who you were
(15:43):
voting for for president on TV,but I don't know much about any
of those state legislators.
SPEAKER_01 (15:48):
I I will say I don't think much has changed nowadays.
I think depending on what sideof the aisle you lean on, half
of the people you don't know,and you go, well, I hope that
they align with my, you know,with what I say, and they're
going down to take it becauseI've seen a lot of young people
do that, but we won't get wewon't get into that.
But so I know talking to thestrunks and talking to some
(16:10):
other people, there was a timeframe when you started rent to
own where there wasn't thetechnology to run the rent to
own as we know it today, right?
There was no computer systemsthat ran uh what we did.
And then eventually somethingcame along.
Um two questions.
So it's really the same thingtwo two ways, but number one,
(16:31):
how great was it?
Did it did it affect you to getonto one of these systems?
Did it make a huge difference inyour in your business?
And the other one is what wasthe name of the software that
you got into with?
SPEAKER_00 (16:42):
Yeah.
Well, when we first began, um,without any question, I I mean,
I was flying without anyknowledge, I had never been in a
rent owned store.
So I knew no way anybody elsedid this.
So I I bought my my mom hadgotten laid off as a bookkeeper
from someplace, and uh mypartner said, Yeah, we'll we can
(17:03):
hire your mom.
We can't pay her much more thanminimum wage, but but if she
needs a job, we'll hire her.
So my mom went to work, and momand I decided we would go out
and buy a recipe box and indexcards.
And when we rented the TV, momwould write the TV model number,
brand, serial number, and thenstart writing Friday dates, you
(17:28):
know, like like May 7th would be5 slash 7.
And when somebody'd make May7th's payment, she'd draw
incline through it.
And she would just keep themahead on dates, and the the top
of the card would say thebeginning date and the ending
date and the cash price.
And we just had concocted onthat truck trip back from that
(17:52):
guy's place that I was gonna letwe were gonna take 52 weekly
payments, and we were gonna makethe cash price, 26 of them, and
we were gonna let 50 percent ofwhat they paid us apply to the
cash price, and they could buyout any time they wanted early.
So that was a personalconcoction that uh ended up
being the way we decided tobuild Ohio State law.
(18:14):
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
I was just about to say uh youknow that a lot of people have
built it off that that model.
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
Well, in the early days, the bigguys only wanted to apply 35 or
40 percent.
And a lot of AG's offices didn'tlike that.
And and my 50 percent, I think,was winced at by a lot of my
peers when we were real young inthe business and first seeing
(18:35):
people, but it ended up beingadopted as a pretty common
practice, I think.
I'm not saying that I'm the onlyone that came up with that idea,
but I thought I was at the time.
I'm sure somebody else probablycame up with the same idea.
SPEAKER_01 (18:48):
And what was the name of that system that you
guys went to finally?
SPEAKER_00 (18:51):
Well, I mean, so so that was all manual.
And then we found out there weresuch things for small loan
companies that where they hadthose green cards.
And so a lot of us before we hadcomputers ended up getting away
from the index cards, andthere's a real nice ledger green
card that was a part of thesmall loan company business, and
we bought those.
You could buy them at an officesupply.
(19:13):
Um and then uh the very firstthing that happened
electronically is a guy my momhad previously worked with at
the telephone company was aprogrammer, computer programmer
back in the very early days whenyou rip pretty much could only
buy an IBM or a clone to an IBMcomputer.
And he helped us buy a clone andwrote a program that was just an
(19:35):
accounts receivable program forour payments.
There was no reports, no abilityto pull a report or do tallies
for you.
It just helped track theaccounts receivable for each
account for that customer.
And we run that for a coupleyears, and then we were at a
probably one of the earlyconventions and probably run
(19:56):
into David Goldman, and thefirst real rental software we
ever had was ideal.
And I think we probably did thatin about 80.
I'm gonna say we probably ranmanual for till 84, and then we
probably ran that that homemadeprogram from the guy at General
(20:17):
Telephone till maybe about 86 or7, and then we signed up with
David probably in 87 and uh 86or 7, something like that, and
had ideal software beforeVersaRent.
I was just about to say how it'scalled ideal software then.
SPEAKER_01 (20:31):
How was it how how big of a difference is it from
that system to the system theyhave now?
SPEAKER_00 (20:36):
Oh, night and day night and day.
I mean, uh, you know, there wassome reports, but not nearly
like there is now.
And there were, you know, wedidn't understand access to SQL
and any of that kind of stuffback then, you know.
Report writers were somethingthat took real smart people to
do deal with back in those days.
(20:57):
And and we and we were withDavid for a number of years, and
then and then we decided wewanted to try high touch, and we
were with high touch for 20years, and then in 13 we moved
back to Bursa Rent.
SPEAKER_01 (21:09):
You know, it's it's it's crazy because in the early
90s and early 2000s, I thinkhigh touch was the you know, was
the brand to go to.
SPEAKER_00 (21:15):
60 or 70 percent market share, I think, at one
point.
SPEAKER_01 (21:18):
Yeah, I mean they were they were just everywhere.
And pretty much, if you know howto run high touch, you pretty
much knew you could walk intoany store if you had the
clearance and kind of just gothrough.
SPEAKER_00 (21:26):
I mean, because even Rack had it.
I mean, I think they might havebought source code and had had
kind of their own version of it,but yeah.
Yeah, well it was everywhere.
SPEAKER_01 (21:33):
Yeah, when I started at Rack back then, that's
exactly what we had.
Uh, you know, take this out.
But as you're doing as you're asyou're going along, you start
this legal journey.
You're in the RDAs.
When did you first join April?
SPEAKER_00 (21:51):
Um I think my first time to come to convention, and
I probably joined just ahead ofthat, was nineteen.
In Washington, D.C.
It was Bill Kees' initial hiringinto April as the executive
director.
It was his first convention.
I remember meeting him on anescalator at the hotel there in
(22:12):
Washington that we stayed at.
And uh that would that wouldhave been, I don't remember what
month, but I mean it wassomewhere in that range of the
summertime of '89 when we joinedApril.
What made you join?
SPEAKER_01 (22:25):
And I know and I know that you were active in the
RDA, so I know that kind ofplayed a small foot.
But what made Gary and Showplacego, This is this is all over.
This is a lot of people, andthis is the right way to go.
Or at least what you thought atthe time would it might have
been the right way to go.
SPEAKER_00 (22:40):
Well, by then I'd been sharing ideas with friends
in the business at at ORDA, umlike Daryl and and Ernie, and
they were joining these things,and and they said, you know,
it's unlimited.
There's so many people to learnfrom.
And there's seminars, andthere's Edwin, and you know, I
(23:03):
mean, we had uh resources there,and and it was expensive as a
young, you know, fledgling ofcourse by by 89, I guess we'd
been in business formally forseven years and totally for
eight, including my front porch.
So we we weren't new to thebusiness.
It was just time for us to toget legit and be a part of the
(23:27):
industry.
And um and I think I was alreadya retail buying group member,
but I hadn't joined TRIB, Ithink, until about ninety-two,
ninety-one or two.
I think it was ninety-two.
Um so but yeah, all those thingswere network opportunities.
I just love to learn, you know.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (23:47):
So you mentioned a couple of names twice.
Daryl Tissett and Ernie.
SPEAKER_00 (23:53):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (23:55):
What I'm so interested in is everybody says
when they have an issue, theyhave a question, they go to
Gary.
Okay.
I'm just letting you know that.
They love you out here.
But Gary had to go to somebodyfirst.
It sounds like I'm gonna sayit's them, but I just in case,
who were are are those the otherthings.
SPEAKER_00 (24:16):
It was a combination.
I mean, uh, you know, I wouldsay Daryl and I and Ernie and I
had a lot of um vigorousdebates.
They were they were notdisrespectful, they weren't
arguments, they were debatesabout I do it this way and you
do it that way, and which isbest, and you know, we're trying
(24:36):
to make our point of how why howand why we do it.
So there was a lot of that at atstate association meetings.
But probably And so I Idefinitely learned that that
stretched each of us.
You know, we were juststretching each other.
And I think our experiencelevels were were pretty similar.
Ernie had been in the business alittle bit before us working for
another company and then startedhis own.
(24:58):
Uh Daryl started a couple,three, four years after I
started, but uh but was olderand had other business
experience.
So I mean, my businessexperience was pretty much just
this.
Um and but but truly the biggestmentors I think in those early
(25:18):
days was in the early 90s wasprobably Norm Slatten.
Really?
Um very creative, very uhdynamic.
Um and his his nephew LarrySutton and uh and and Cynthia
Baber Strunk, which you know isstill active in our industry in
Shannon.
Um this was pre-Shannon, but itwas you know, she was involved
(25:40):
in Tribb in the early 90s uh asa board member and and and and
and ran that group, you know,was president of that group at
one point.
Um learned a lot from them.
Um I would say uh LowrySchrader, um King Frog Reynolds
out of Nashville, Tennessee, wason that board.
King Frog Reynolds.
(26:01):
Yeah, he was uh he had 15 storesand uh um was very creative and
he was a lay preacher, so he hehe he preached Sundays.
Um he was a musician, reallygood musician.
Um and uh so he'd play at allthe furniture markets, they'd
(26:21):
set up a place and him and abunch of guys would pick up
instruments and just just jamtogether or whatever, and then
he had these these stores, butuh time spent with those guys in
those trib board meetings in theearly 90s was super, super
educational for me.
So uh I did learn a lot fromfrom Daryl Ernie and others
(26:42):
earlier like that, but but I Iwould just say I got it to a
different level with Slats andLowry and Larry Sutton and and
probably even you know back inthe day, uh uh Carico and you
know um some of the guys wereyounger than me.
You still learn from them.
I've I've learned so much fromMike Tissett, and he's way
(27:04):
younger than me.
But uh, you know, uh you hearhim say something about me, but
I think the learning has gonemore the other direction.
I've learned more from him thanhe ever learned from me, I
think.
SPEAKER_01 (27:13):
But but I think that's I think that's a good
thing to not only be able topass on some knowledge and
experience, but be able to takefrom all the people that are
around you and say, man, you dothis very well as in in a in a
different light.
You're you're doing this verywell.
I need to take this or I need totake that and compound it into a
better way of doing rent-to-own.
SPEAKER_00 (27:32):
Most of my favorite people in this industry have
always been the believer thatthe rising tide rises all ships
and you know, all those people Imentioned, I feel were very
abundant-minded and and justwanted to help everybody, you
know.
SPEAKER_01 (27:47):
Well, you know, you said something earlier about
you're having conversations withDavid and Ernie, or Daryl,
excuse me, David, Daryl andErnie, and and you're talking I
do it this way and you do itthat way.
What was it that Showplace didthat you would say, this is our
mark?
This is something we did alittle bit different than our
neighbors, and this was how wemade success.
SPEAKER_00 (28:10):
I got one, I got a good answer for that.
What we felt was differentiatedus from the competitors that
grew up in my first five to tenyears, which was Ronald King, a
store that built dozens ofstores out of, you know, out of
Ohio.
Um the the competitors that Ifound in my towns typically had
(28:33):
a bit of a reputation for hidingthe buyout price, the discounted
early purchase option price.
They didn't like the the storemanagers, didn't like losing BOR
to somebody paying off.
SPEAKER_01 (28:47):
I wish that was a problem.
That's probably a great problemto have if you have somebody
owning.
SPEAKER_00 (28:51):
That's the way we looked at it.
I got cash.
Yeah.
I mean, that was a great thingfor us.
So what we did was harness thatevery price tag and every
receipt that a customer gotshowed them their exact
discounted payout price.
And and we we used it as adifferentiator.
We care about you getting achance to pay off your home
(29:13):
mortgage faster and not pay allthat interest.
Right.
It's not the home mortgage, it'sthe refrigerator, it's the TV,
it's whatever it was.
But our big thing was they don'twant you to know when the payout
is.
We're happy to tell you everyweek.
But we do.
SPEAKER_01 (29:28):
We do because we want you to own it.
SPEAKER_00 (29:30):
Because we got a good character and we got a good
heart, and if we can help yousave money and buy it for the
lowest possible, one of my oneof my employees, one of my store
managers, coined the phrase,they had it in their back room,
and I loved it so much we put itall over our stores at one
point.
Is our our goal, our mission isto help you acquire ownership if
you want to at the lowestpossible price.
SPEAKER_01 (29:53):
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Podcast, and I want to tell youabout a company that's making a
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Their e-commerce and leadgeneration strategies are built
(30:15):
to bring qualified leaders.
And did I mention that they areactively working with the
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Listen, these folks arepassionate problem solvers.
They don't just slap somethingtogether, they design, build,
and scale the kind of digitalretail tools your business needs
and your customers actuallywant.
So if you're serious aboutgrowing, reach out to WoWBrands
(30:38):
at WoWBrands.com.
I trust them, and I think youwill too.
SPEAKER_00 (30:43):
God, I think I remember that.
It was character for us.
It was just show them.
We are your advocate.
We're not here to hammer you.
We are here to help you.
We're here to take care of you.
Yes.
Yeah, no, I love that.
It helped build the culture.
And I've it was it was ouruniqueness at that time, you
know.
And I I don't think we ever leftthat.
You know, we still show on thereceipt what your EPO is.
(31:06):
Um, it's it's and and and Istill say there's a lot of
people that didn't want to showthat.
They want they didn't wantsomebody to know they're about
to pay off.
SPEAKER_01 (31:16):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, I mean, talking aboutthose moments, because there was
a lot of things that had to bepioneered in order to get to
where we were, whether it besomething that happened in the
way of a same as cash or howthat was calculated and thought
of, or you know, remindingeverybody an early purchase
option is not a bad thing.
(31:37):
A paid in full is not a badthing.
It's success all the way.
Well, well, it and not onlythat, it also leads to recurring
revenues in the sense thatsomebody feels like you had
gotten them to ownership.
They didn't pay you for noreason.
Super happy with you.
And and now they want to comeback for more.
So was there ever a time thatyou looked at Brentone as an
(31:57):
industry and thought, I don'tknow where this is going.
We might be in a little bit oftrouble.
There might be a future that's alittle bit, a little bit grim
right now or a little bitdifficult.
Or did you always have the idealike we are on an upward
trajectory, whether it's thisway or whether it's you know,
smooth, that it's going to behere no matter what?
SPEAKER_00 (32:17):
I I don't think I ever really doubted that we
could keep it alive.
I always had built in the backof my mind if we ever got
outlawed the the alternative,the way I would keep taking care
of these customers.
You know, and there's a coupledifferent ways.
But I mean, rent to rent's one.
And with a a building rewardspoints thing, and you can buy
(32:40):
something at the end with yourrewards.
I mean, I I was concocting waysif something bad happened.
I never really felt like wewouldn't continue, like there
wasn't a heavy percentage ofdemographics that needed us.
Uh not not which very much of,even used us.
So I always thought theopportunity for growth was
unlimited.
And I I was just always veryoptimistic about the future of
(33:02):
the business.
And I also watched in the earlydays the guys that I felt maybe
didn't have the greatestcharacter and was in it for
quick money, they come and went.
They they either they eitherfailed or they got it to a point
where they could sell and walkwith some cash, and they did.
And what remained was managers,operators, people that keep
(33:26):
people that did have goodcharacter, that took care of
customers long term, built goodbig companies.
SPEAKER_01 (33:32):
You know, the the Larry Sutton's, you know, of the
world, you know, buddies and youknow, when you champions you say
Larry Sutton, who built, youknow, what was it, a hundred
stores at some point orsomething?
SPEAKER_00 (33:43):
Well, I think Champion had a hundred and some
stores.
I think Larry owned a quarter ofthem, maybe twenty, twenty or
five or thirty of them.
Maybe I'm saying that right.
He had some partners in thatgroup.
SPEAKER_01 (33:51):
And then he decides to make a complete different
turn and go to you know thetower business.
Wheels and tires explode thatbecause I mean he he's just
killing it, right?
So people sometimes don't knowabout that.
They don't know about thesuccesses.
We do, right?
Because we're in the industryand we know these people, and we
(34:13):
can walk through the halls ofApril, we can walk through the
halls of the RTO worlds and andthe conventions and the meeting
of the minds, and we can seethose people and say, man, that
guy is success because he caresabout his customer, he cares
about his business, he caresabout his employees.
That guy over there does.
And we can mention the Ernie'sand the Darrell's and and how
they've been able to transitiondown the line, you know, you
with Keith.
But those are inside stories.
(34:35):
You ever what was one of thesome of the hardest things that
you had to overcome as far aswhat people thought of rent to
own during your time?
Because there's been a lot ofcomp monikers that have come
with rent to own, and you'relike, you guys are taking
advantage, you guys are sellingit at an astronomical price, and
you know, without knowing thebusiness model or everything
that's included in the rentalagreement, included by you know,
(34:55):
doing a service, no credit,making sure that we take it out
to you and from you for free, orpicking it up if you ever decide
that you don't want it at thatpoint, and then come back a week
later and you still don't getcharged for it.
You don't know about the cost ofthe truck, the cost of the
insurance, the truck, you know,they have no idea of that.
But they get this idea in theirhead that, you know, it's a
disadvantage.
SPEAKER_00 (35:12):
Because your gross margin.
They don't understand your netmargin, but they can see your
gross margin.
Correct.
SPEAKER_01 (35:20):
What were some of the biggest trials and
tribulations of getting thatoverturned in your area and
saying, you know what, it's notthat bad.
Let me get you to a same ascash, let me get you to a paid
info so that you can own this.
And people going, nah, Gary, Iknow you're gonna charge me a
whole lot and I don't want to dothis.
SPEAKER_00 (35:35):
I never felt the resistance from the customer
base.
No.
I always felt gratitude from thecustomers that they they hadn't
had a new refrigerator everbefore.
They'd bought used or somebodygave them one or whatever.
I always felt gratitude from thecustomer base.
We tried to explain theagreement really well.
(35:56):
Um, they knew what they weredoing.
Yeah.
And I never really felt thatkind of uh mistrust from the
customer base.
It was more the uh uneducated umdo-gooders that didn't
understand what you just said,all the backside and you know,
costs um that might ask a familymember of mine, even might say,
(36:19):
How do you sleep at night?
You charge too much.
Why would anybody do that?
You know, because they've neverbeen in that situation, or they
don't understand that lack ofobligation and the freedom that
some people desire if they wantto buy something and they're not
sure they're gonna like it.
You can't do that at the mom andpop TV and appliance store.
(36:40):
You can't do that at Kmart, youknow.
SPEAKER_02 (36:42):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (36:42):
You but you could do it with us, and after a couple
weeks, if you really didn't likeit, you just return it.
You know, we couldn't doanything about it.
We were gonna try to see if wecould solve the problem for you,
but at the end of the day, ifyou wanted to return it, you got
to return it.
Right.
And uh so those those benefitsand extra services, you know, if
(37:03):
something went wrong, givingthem a loan or do all the little
extra things that we all know wedo with this business, um all
the way up to something thatpaid out last month.
There's not many owners I knowthat wouldn't replace something,
you know.
Yeah, we replace it if if it'sstill on rent, we replace it.
(37:24):
But if it paid out just lastmonth, there's not many I know
that wouldn't go ahead and fixit for them or replace it.
You know, I mean do their bestby the customer.
Yeah, you just you know, it's alittle bit over the line of what
was agreed on, but you'rethinking long-term here.
You just want them to love you.
SPEAKER_01 (37:42):
You know, sometimes it's hard to be loved by
somebody who doesn't know what'sgoing on.
You know, sometimes you havethat child and it's like, I love
you, but you know, I have todiscipline you.
Um If you had something to say,we're gonna we're gonna we're
gonna start from the beginningall the way through.
You started in repairing TVs,you come a little bit further,
(38:03):
you start selling TVs, you startgetting lines, you start putting
more in there, you come acrosssome trials and tribulations of,
you know, I've got to make surethat I have it paid.
I'm not gonna take on as bigcredit amount.
So therefore my growth mighthave been stunted a little bit
because we didn't take on a youknow$500,000 worth of debt in
the front end because we wantedto make sure that we did it
right.
(38:23):
But you have other people thatmight go down that road.
They might take that that wayand go, hey, listen, I'm okay
with taking on that debt becauseI know that I can build it quick
or whatever the case is.
Coming into these generationsnow, 2025, and we're talking
about moving ahead.
What's something that you wouldtell somebody with all the
knowledge and with all theexperience that you've built out
throughout the years?
What's something you would say,I think this would benefit you
(38:45):
the most?
SPEAKER_00 (38:48):
Well, I will have to say, and so so that I uh I make
sure this is clear, we didn'tstart out with debt, but we grew
so fast at one stretch that Idid have a credit finance group,
the you know, a commercialfinance group that we we built a
line of credit with, and we didowe, you know, I think uh gosh,
(39:10):
what we owe.
I think we had a six hundredthousand dollar line of credit
at one point, but we were, youknow, we were growing so fast,
but it was all working out, youknow.
I mean, we we always had themoney to pay the payment that
was required until that bigthing happened in the 90s where
the commercial credit companiesblacklisted all the rent-owned
(39:31):
companies, and they called myloan.
And I I had to get out of I hadto reduce, I think we were in
the seven or eight hundredthousand dollar area at the
time, and I had to reduce thatto two seventy-five, and they
gave me ninety days to do it, orI had or they were calling the
whole loan.
What year, what around what yearwas that?
I'm thinking that wasninety-one, ninety-two.
SPEAKER_01 (39:54):
It's funny.
I was talking to uh Whalenearlier and he mentioned the
same thing that at some pointeven.
SPEAKER_00 (39:59):
Borg Warner acceptance BWAC was the the big
one, and and we we used ChryslerFirst at the time.
Um there was there was a numberof those commercial credit
organizations that floor plannedfurniture and appliance
retailers typically, but they'dthey developed a rent-to-own arm
to help us grow, and and theylet some of the fast money early
(40:25):
entrepreneurs of the industryget real deep and abscond, you
know, spend the money and thencouldn't manage the volume and
go bankrupt.
And so they blacklisted us, youknow.
And we'd never made a latepayment.
You know, I got real mad.
My guy called me up and he said,Well, I gotta I can keep you at
the branch level, which is 275or under, and Chicago won't know
(40:49):
about it.
I can keep you in Cincinnati,Chicago won't know about it.
But Chicago said, you got to getrid of this guy.
But he said, I'll keep you atthe branch level.
And I had a$600,000 line, andhe'd let me go over line as we
were growing.
I owed him$700,000,$8,000,000,$900,000 at times, never made a
late payment.
Um, and it agitated me so muchas a young, immature businessman
(41:10):
that I told him, you know whatyou can do with that$275?
I don't need it.
And I went looking around atlocal banks and uncles and
everybody else to figure outthat about two weeks later I
called him back up and said, I'msuch an asshole.
I'm sorry.
I need that 275.
And uh, you know, and I and Ihad I found another way to get
(41:32):
some to help, you know, a guythat had some some dough that he
was will I was willing to payhim more interest than he was
getting at the bank.
And uh combined and we and weshrunk and we shared, you know,
I went to all my employees andsaid, This is a this is just the
worst thing that's everhappened.
The big guys are after us, youknow, the banks are after us,
and uh we just got to pulltogether and share product and
(41:53):
and it was some of the bestteaming momentum we ever had.
And man, we got cash-friendlyquick and you know, got out of
debt.
And uh, but yeah, that wouldthat was a really big challenge.
SPEAKER_01 (42:05):
So would the message going forward be be very careful
with your money?
SPEAKER_00 (42:08):
Yeah, just you know, um I don't know that we'll ever
see I think our industry is moreunderstood now, so I don't ever
see a complete exit.
You know, we've taught bankswhat to do.
You s you sometimes have toteach your own banker if you're
if you're using a bank.
And we did we use Chase Bank Onebefore they got bought out by
Chase.
Bank One helped me immenselyafter that.
(42:29):
I taught a commercial lenderwhat our business was and spent
a lot of time with him in hishobby, you know, fly fishing and
and messing around, ducksunlimited with him, and you
know, just building a greatrelationship.
So he'd give me the time toexplain the business, and then
they they gave us a line ofcredit that was all I ever
(42:51):
needed after that.
But uh, and I think, and thatwas something that Tribb brought
in a uh seminar one year at aTRIP convention, a meeting of
the mines out in I thinkPhoenix.
They brought in a guy, SummersWhite, that taught us all how to
build a bank relationship.
This was right after thatdebacle with the commercial
(43:11):
lenders.
But uh yeah, I knew a new persongetting in, I'd just say, don't
go hog wild on the debt.
Um, don't borrow more than youknow you can pay back, you know.
SPEAKER_01 (43:22):
Um That's that's a tough, that's a that's a tough
one.
SPEAKER_00 (43:25):
And and and that may mean for us in those days, it
was we knew what we made at herbookkeeping job and me at the
factory.
And I wouldn't I wouldn't borrowmore than I knew and knew safely
what the business would provide,and and I could add to it out of
and still buy groceries, youknow.
And um but yeah, I mean it's itgets down to it's fairly simple
(43:50):
math.
Um and you know what you'regonna rent this for and what
what and how much you can keepit on rent.
Um you know, back in those days.
Whatever you put in the in thedisplay room, you could rent.
And I and I'd say today we allprobably are at that place where
there's enough competition,enough other ways to get things
(44:12):
that you can't rent everythingyou put in the store today.
Back then it was not that way.
If you had something nice andnew that went on that floor, it
was on rent in a week or two,you know.
And you knew what rent you weregetting.
And and and the ability tocollect it at a higher percent I
think was better then than it isnow.
(44:33):
Of course, we have a lot of conyou know, uh arrived at ethics
that in all honesty, we probablymy partner would tell me some
stories about how he did apickup and we wouldn't dare do
that today.
It was after hours and you know,sneaking around and you know, it
(44:53):
was we had to learn our lessonsabout that.
And and and we, you know, Ican't deny we probably did a few
things that we would never dotoday.
I wouldn't let anybody do dotoday, but but but we we didn't
we probably had some years wherewe didn't charge anything off
the whole year.
Wow, nothing.
That's that's great.
I I think we had a stretch whenmy partner was in charge of all
(45:15):
of our collections, and we wereprobably up to three or four
stores at this time.
We had a couple years stretch,we didn't charge anything off.
SPEAKER_01 (45:22):
Wow.
But so kind of getting to theend of this, I'm curious.
In all your years and everythingthat you've rented, everything
that you've had, tell me an itemthat you weren't sure about that
just literally took off.
SPEAKER_00 (45:39):
Yeah, well, probably a couple things come to mind.
One is that it took us threetimes to get into the computer
business before it was everprofitable.
Two times I lost my shirt and wesaid, we're never in computers
again.
But, you know, obviously timewent on, they got more
user-friendly, and I figured outhow to turn one on.
(46:00):
But uh I I would think probablyone of the biggest uh surprise
items that went crazy wasprobably riding lawnmowers.
No kidding.
And I and I think I think Darylwas he or I won, but I think it
was him was the first one thatdid it, and the other one, we
were talking with each other alot, so it wasn't long.
(46:22):
Whoever did it first, the otherone did it next pretty quick.
Uh, I think he rented themfirst.
And uh and that got to be kindof opened your eyes to
something.
Well, I mean, we were in ruralareas, you know.
I not many of my customers livedin an apartment in a city.
All my customers rented some1920 built home in a
working-class neighborhood whereall the people that used to live
(46:45):
in that had moved to the suburbsof that little town, and it was
where you could rent cheapest.
And they built some of thosehouses into duplexes.
Yep.
And that, you know, those werethe neighborhoods we were in.
Um, and there was a lot ofpeople at the edges of town on a
trailer on an acre, you know,and and they were rental
clients.
(47:05):
Um, you know, maybe maybe thetrailer parks, they just needed
a push mower.
But but anybody that had much ofa lawn You want to get a rider.
They wanted a rider.
Yeah, they wanted a rider.
And that that that surprised mehow well that went.
And um along the way, when zeroturns came, and most of my
(47:26):
compatriots here, peers at therental business, said they're
just too much money.
Well, I've you know, we alwaystried a lot of stuff and kept
what worked.
Zero turn riding mowers is agreat rent-owned item.
SPEAKER_01 (47:39):
Uh, they they have been.
I actually have seen that.
When when did you start rentingyour first mowers?
SPEAKER_00 (47:46):
Let's see.
I would say mid-90s, 95.
Yeah, 96.
Yeah.
That's about when they startedcoming out.
We did it before I ever saw onein an Aaron's, but once we
started doing it, Aaron saw itright away.
And uh, I don't know if they sawit at Daryl's area or my area,
but but uh it wasn't long afterthat that Aaron's was renting
(48:08):
them.
Rack took longer before theyrented them, but uh um but yeah,
it's uh it that was a bigsurprise.
It's a it's a pretty stableincome.
And uh and we we'd offer aput-up program, you know, kind
of like a motorcycle insurancegives you offers you a put-up
(48:28):
program.
So you don't have to payinsurance all year long if
you're not gonna write if you'regonna put it in a garage.
Well, that's kind of what we do.
We'd say, look, you know, at theend of October, you can you're
not gonna use it.
You can pay us one payment amonth, one week a month, and
we'll apply that towards theiryour purchase price, but that's
all you owe us during the offseason is just one week a month,
(48:51):
and you get a hold and keep yourmower, and we didn't have to
bring it back and store it.
SPEAKER_01 (48:57):
Which could be a nightmare if you have too many
on rent.
Yeah.
That's a great idea.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (49:01):
So we we did that with window air conditioners
too.
We'd we'd get people onto awindow air conditioner, and they
didn't didn't want to keep itand spend the money in the
winter, but we could get adecent percentage of them to
keep it by paying one week amonth.
And and it and it eventuallyjust paid out, you know, but at
least they got to keep it andthey, you know, the it was
(49:23):
efficient for them not to haveto start over again next year.
And uh and it kept us fromhaving to bring them back and
jack them in and out of people'swindows, which was damaging
things.
And you know, somebody mightsay, well, I'd rather re-rent it
in a new term next year, makemore money on that one unit.
That's not the way we looked atit.
We looked at it long-term, likethat customer got to own it.
(49:46):
They're happy with us, it wasmore efficient for them.
If somebody else was trying torent it each season to them,
they'd figure out the characterthere.
They want to come here, youknow.
So it was all always about thelong-term, you know, long-term
relationship.
And that's what makes showplaceshowplace.
Yeah, I think that's that's aunique part.
I mean, and I think a lot of thegood dealers in this industry do
(50:09):
exactly the same thing.
I don't I think it's just uniqueshowplace, but it was our
difference against the big guyswhen we were really getting
going.
SPEAKER_01 (50:20):
Well, as usual, it's always a great conversation.
I love talking to Gary all thetime because the truth is I
learned something every singletime we have a conversation.
But, you know, coming to an end,I gotta say, I've loved doing
the Legend series.
I love being able to speak tosome of the people that have
been not only in the beginningsof this industry, but have seen
(50:40):
all the way to where it's comeand their contributions that
they've had along the way,whether it's going against, you
know, the B Gonzalez's in inTexas, or whether it be, you
know, just figuring out this isour RDA, we have to make this
work in our state.
This is what you do differently,this is what I do differently,
and how we make that work forourselves, what products we
bring in at whatever time.
(51:01):
And you know, maybe some thingswork and some things don't.
You know, I've never had anissue with computers, but then I
hear that there has been.
So you always, you know, thosedifferences.
Um, and it's really, it's reallyjust great to hear, you know,
how we've made it so far andthrough the through the trials
and tribulations to be able tohear in a thriving industry,
regardless of what's going onaround us in 2025, to say, I
(51:24):
think there's a pretty good lookfor next year.
SPEAKER_00 (51:26):
Yeah, you know, and keep on going.
I'm very optimistic about theindustry, uh, the young leaders
that are coming up coming upthrough it.
Um proud of my son doing a greatjob.
Um, and there's there's a lot ofgood young operators at this
point.
And uh we just got to teach themto think long term, do the right
(51:48):
thing.
Yeah, we gotta teach them thatstuff because it always works
out.
SPEAKER_01 (51:51):
Keep the main thing the main thing.
Yeah, I always say that.
But we appreciate you guyssitting here with us.
This is our legend series, andwe're kind of going back and
dialing in from where we were towhere we are now.
We are so appreciative that youguys stayed with us.
If you have any questions,please hit me up at the show.
It's Pete at the RTO ShowPodcast.com, or you can see me
on Facebook, Instagram,LinkedIn, and now where you're
(52:11):
gonna see this on YouTube andkind of just give us a shout.
If you have any questions forGary or any of our legends,
please let me know because I'dlove to find out what it is that
you were thinking about and whatI may need to ask the next one.
But we do appreciate your time.
We appreciate everything.
If you have any questions thatyou don't know about, make sure
that you hit up April.
Apro is a very big resource, youknow, at rto-hq.org and uh keep
(52:32):
them and everybody else in yourprayers with the disaster relief
that they're doing nowadays.
And I will tell you guys asalways, regardless of where you
see us, Gary, I'm so glad thatyou're with us.
I'm glad that you're here, and Iwill I'm gonna share a drink
with you a little bit later.
All right.
SPEAKER_02 (52:44):
All right, sounds good.
SPEAKER_01 (52:45):
Get your collections low to get your sales high.
Have a great one.
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