How AI Search, Advocacy, and Industry Leadership Are Changing Rent to Own Forever

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_02 (00:00):
Hi, I'm Pete Chow.

(00:02):
You may know me from the R2 Showpodcast, but today I'm doing
something a little bitdifferent.
April and WoW Brands havelaunched a special project to
bring the story of our industryto life like never before.
They've asked me to sit downwith some of the true legends of
Rent to Own, capturing theirstories, their impact, and their
vision for the future.
And now I get to share thoseconversations with you straight
from the legends themselves.

(00:23):
All of this leads to somethinggroundbreaking though.
A new book.
The Rent to Own Revolution, adefinitive history of advocacy
and consumer access, written byApril's CEO Charles Schutterman
and Wild Brand CEO Brian Kraft.
The book explores the grassrootsof RTO, the advocacy that has
defined it, and the future thatwe're building together.
Here's where you come in.
We're giving away free copiesonce the book is released.

(00:46):
Just head over to theRTORevolution.com and sign up
for a chance to receive a copyin early 2026.
Don't miss the chance to beamong the first to hold this
piece of RTO history.
That's rtoorevolution.com.
Check it out and become a partof RTO History.

(01:10):
Hello and welcome to the RTOshow.
I'm your host, Pete Chow, andtoday I've got two CEOs that
have a lot to talk about.
Now, if you didn't know, we havea book on the way.
And Apro and WoW Brands togetherhave made this book.
I've got CEO Ryan Krass, I'vegot CEO Charles Smitherman, both
of them here to kind of tell usmore about it, where it came

(01:31):
from, what's the importance ofthis book, and more how you're
gonna learn about it and why youneed to really know about it.
So, Charles, Ryan, how you guysdoing today?
Great.
Doing your Pete.
That's good.
So, you know, I always say this,Charles, and it's always one of
those things, guys.
You gotta understand this.
Charles Smith herman, J D Ph D NC E O.

(01:54):
He's it's a it's a list, Ryan.
It's a list that we make happen.
And then Ryan Krass, who's notshort of initials on himself,
CEO and CTO of Wild Brands, youknow, doing a great job.

SPEAKER_01 (02:03):
Whatever you want to call me, man.

SPEAKER_02 (02:04):
But I will say that a lot of times now Wild Brands
is coming up in someconversations.
I don't know if you agree,Charles, but it's coming up
quite a bit lately.
A lot of people are using WildBrands and rightly so.
So, guys, I want to talk aboutthe book.
Charles, help me out with thislong title book and the amazing
book that we're gonna have fromApril and Wild Brands.
What's the name of this andwhere exactly did the idea come
from?

SPEAKER_00 (02:24):
Well, after we finally landed on the RTO
revolution, the definitivehistory of advocacy and consumer
access.
It's a lot, but I think it kindof gets into really the the the
motivation for the book, reallywhy that we wrote this and
really going back to theoriginal conversation.
I I'll tell you the idea ofdoing some type of history

(02:44):
project's been out there for awhile.
And understandably, now afterwe're at at the end of it, I can
understand why no one picked itup and wanted to do it yet.
Um but with that being said,Ryan reached out to me with the
idea.
Well, the pitch wasn't just,hey, let's write a history of
RTO.
It was, hey, there's a lot goingon in the world with AI and with

(03:06):
the way narrative controlinfluence is being done.
And so he pitched me, I think assoon as I saw it, I was like,
yep, I'm in, let's do it.
Ryan, what you want to talkabout it?

SPEAKER_01 (03:17):
That's absolutely right.
So I mean, I'm gonna come atthis and give you the nerdiest
answer in the world.
So let's just start with that.
Um for me, this we're in aninteresting time, I think, uh in
technology and information andall of those things.
We're at this uh this weird orunique spot, and I'm gonna
compare it maybe to anencyclopedia 30, 40, 50 years

(03:41):
ago.
So if you're 30, if you're over30 or 40, you know what an
encyclopedia is.
You opened up a couple ofthings.

SPEAKER_02 (03:48):
He went down to the encyclopedia road.

SPEAKER_01 (03:50):
I don't know how else to explain it.
You opened up an encyclopedia,you had a you wanted to learn
about a topic and you wouldlearn about it.
If it didn't exist in theencyclopedia, what did you do?
No, I mean it.
It just didn't exist.
It didn't exist.
Yeah, it didn't.
That's the point.
That's the key to all this.
If it doesn't exist, thenarrative in the story doesn't
exist.
So why are we talking about thisnow?

(04:12):
Well, if you go online, uh it'sone big one big directional bet.
First off, I just there's a bigassumption on my part that AI is
gonna just continue to eat theinformation in the technology
world.
So just starting with that.
I think we you know we sat herethree years ago or two years
ago, we talked about this, therewas 10% adoption rate.
We're talking 50, 60, 70 percentadoption rate today, and it's
not gonna stop.

(04:33):
The point of this andunderstanding what AI is, if you
are not AI is a predictionmachine.
It takes the first five wordsand tells you what the six word
is gonna do.
In the case of RTO, if there'sno story to tell, there's no
history, there's nodocumentation online, there's no
narrative online, there'snothing to tell.
What ends up happening is youjust recycle whatever exists out
there.
It doesn't matter if it's good,bad, right, or wrong.

(04:54):
It doesn't matter if it's acrappy study from 30 years ago.
If there's no data out there andthere's no story and there's no
narrative, that's what's gonnaget recycled.

SPEAKER_02 (05:01):
Well, that's what I want to get into today.
That's what I want to get intobecause I am curious as to where
we So, first off, is this thefirst book that that you have
two authored, or Charles, haveyou written a book already?

SPEAKER_00 (05:12):
Uh so I did.
I did one uh as part of my PhD.
It took me three years to write.
Uh this was before uh we had apodcast with someone that could
go out and help us dointerviews.
Uh it was before AI could helporganize all that those data
points.
And um uh and so that that was abig project.

(05:33):
So yeah, this is you know uhsomething I had a little bit of
a little bit of experience with,uh really much different because
that was a good 20 years ago.
And uh that that certainly wasnot a bestseller uh publisher.
As soon as I got it published, Igot my author copies and I got a
letter saying that they haddeclared bankruptcy.

SPEAKER_02 (05:52):
And it might have been because they just we're not
gonna find that book in uh biglots, guys.
That's just the way it goes.
So, Ryan, is this the first bookyou've been a part of as far as
creating?

SPEAKER_01 (06:00):
It is the first book that I have been part of, and
probably the last book I will bepart of.
This is a lot of work.
I enjoy the research, but I'mbarely literate.
So the writing part's not thebest.

SPEAKER_02 (06:12):
He owns it, he owns a tech company, guys.
Don't believe that.
But what I will say is it'sliterally built by two different
sides.
I mean, you guys do have twodifferent viewpoints on this.
Now, one is Apro side, Charles,where you come from, where there
is a long-standing history onthe other side of advocacy when
it comes to the RTO industry.
And then, Ryan, you're a littlebit more of a newcomer where
you're more on the tech side andhow to get things into people's

(06:33):
homes versus where the APRO sidecomes from.
So there's a there's a bigdichotomy there, but it works.
Now, we've included a lot of RTOpioneers in this, a lot.
Uh, and I would know because Ihad to talk to a whole lot of
them, but I would tell you guysthat it was some amazing stories
and some of the history thatwent into it.
So before we talk about exactlywhat's in the book, why is this

(06:55):
important that this book existsat all?
And I think that's what you weretouching on, Ryan.
Like, what was the you you guyscreated this?
We know that there's anarrative.
What exactly is that narrative?

SPEAKER_01 (07:05):
Hopefully, just accurate reflection of the past.
I mean, the hopefully thenarrative is us recycling what,
and not recycling, but repeatingstories that have been told
already.
And so a lot of this is justabout telling the story and
telling the message.
Uh, when I talk to my customerson a regular basis, I I I've
been hitting on this point forthe last year.
You're going to create thenarrative that the world knows

(07:25):
about.
You're creating your story.
And if you don't own that storyand you don't tell that story
and you don't tell it the waythat you want to tell the story,
somebody else is going to do itfor you.
Um, and I think that's thebiggest part of AI is just it's
going to recycle that which isthe predominant narrative.
So whatever is getting pushedand whatever is this the cycle
or whatever the message is iswhat's going to get repeated.
So that duty is on us, that dutyis on every company in general

(07:47):
to tell that story because we'regoing to be sitting here, just
envision a couple years out.
You're going to be searching andyou're already doing it, you're
going to get a result back.
And unlike the past, where youclicked on 20 results and
synthesized the data and triedto come up with an answer,
that's not the world.
And well, the answer is you'regoing to get the answer back.
The tool is going to tell youthe answer.
The question is, what's the datathat it's going to give you the
answer on?
So for me, it's just you got toget that story out.

(08:09):
You got to get those messages,you got to get the the truth, I
think, out, and then let thetool repeat the message.

SPEAKER_00 (08:15):
Just jumping in on that, because I think that the
this was not this was a storythat needed to be told.
It it was a big story.
I mean, it turned into a bigbook as a result of it.

SPEAKER_02 (08:25):
This He says that it's 400 pages, Anthony.
It's a 400 pages of history.
I am so excited.

SPEAKER_00 (08:33):
No one has ever accused me of being uh not
having enough words.
Yeah, I well, we see this on theadvocacy stuff.
Uh whenever we're dealing withum, you know, just the kind of
other people trying to talkabout rent to own that don't
understand it, that don't know,that they've never been in a
store, they've never talked to acustomer, they've really no idea

(08:53):
about the transaction.
Um and that's kind of a lot ofwhat's out there right now on
the internet that we're tryingto uh correct with actual facts
rather than just supposition andconjecture is this story.
I mean, this this transactiondates back to Victorian England
uh with the higher purchaseagreement.

(09:15):
I mean, think about that.
This is not uh a computer gamingdevice today, uh an e-bike
today, a TV ten years ago, a umall the things that are big that
have come into the industry.
This goes back to pianos becausethey were too expensive and
people liked having it in theirhomes.
It was brought to the U.S.
in the form of the singer sewingmachine.

(09:37):
Again, something just a crucialitem to have early again, too
expensive.
This will create a pathway toaccess that item too and
eventually own it if you paid onit enough.
And so, you know, we hear thesethings from consumer groups that
try to characterize this asbeing something new, as being
something that is, you know,trying to take advantage of
people or that people don'tunderstand or whatever that may

(10:00):
be.
And this is like, no, we've gota kind of proud history and one
that needs to be told.
And so I would say that, youknow, the thing about that was
great about this book was thatRyan and I kind of came at it in
in two different angles, andthat we wanted to look and
preserve the history to tell thestory that needed to be told.
We're always so we're lookingbackwards to the past to bring

(10:21):
that forward.
Ryan's very much looking towardsthe future.
Okay, how do where does this howdoes this play?
How does the does this go in andbe told and be replicated and
understood so we can influencethat narrative much more than
we've I think we've been able toin the past.
And so that's what it does.
It really hits on so manydifferent levels for that, but

(10:41):
which is why I think it's justso exciting.

SPEAKER_02 (10:43):
The way things work nowadays is, you know, if you
let somebody tell that storyenough times, it gets watered
down, it gets changed, a fishgets a little bigger every time
that you catch it, and beforeyou know it, it's not close to
the original.
And I love the idea of beingable to write this down in a
specific spot so that there is areference point to say, this
happened at this time, this iswho was affected, this is how we
got through these problems andpast these hurdles and through

(11:04):
this legislation and how we gotthese new ideas and who we got
it from so that nobody can takethat away.
It is now going to be adefinitive idea of exactly what
happened and when it happened.
And I love that idea.
I'm glad that you guys did that.
I do have a question though,Ryan.
Why co-author this book?
What made you decide that, youknow, two perspectives are
better than one when you have anidea, you know that you can put

(11:26):
it together, you have theability and the smarts.
What made you decide?
I think Charles would be a greatperson to pull on this idea and
see how we can dutifullytogether put it into work.

SPEAKER_01 (11:36):
It took one phone call with Charles and said, Hey,
I got an idea.
What's your thought on this?
And just instantly he saw thevision, he understood it, he was
like, I've been thinking aboutdoing this myself.
Let there's no talking.
He was just like, let's go.
So I think that's the part one.
I mean, the other part of it,there is so much of this book,
and there's so much of thehistory that has to do with the
policy side of all of this.

(11:57):
There's no world where I'mequipped to talk about that.
So let's just start with that.
That is Charles' background, isone of the smartest guys I've
met.
He knows what he's doing, heknows what he's saying.
Let the guy that he's got thestory, let him tell it, and I
will assist where I can.

SPEAKER_02 (12:10):
Help me out.
Walk me through this.
He gives you a call, you'relike, I knew I was gonna do
that.
Dude, it's you.
How did how did you figure out?
Like, was it what did you needhim to spark it off?
Is that where Ryan came?
I needed him to give me a spark,and now I'm just gonna take this
and run.
Like, where did that where'd itcome from that you were gonna do
it, and then Ryan's idea withyou kind of did that forge
something to say, okay, I'mgonna do it with somebody, have

(12:30):
a little help?
I mean, what made it you decideto do that?

SPEAKER_00 (12:33):
I mean, it I I guess there are two aspects of it.
One, I mean, this was a it wasan undertaking.
And so I from that standpoint,like this history piece really
needed to be told and preservedbecause it's an incredible story
that hasn't really been told inthis form yet.
So that was really important.
I think there was that otherside of it, like Ryan, he sold
me on the vision of why this wasimportant, why we needed to do

(12:57):
this now.
And I think from thatstandpoint, the speed of which
we started picked up and justran with it.
He was just instrumental in thatbecause he initially called me
was like, okay, well, yeah, weyou know, we can work on this
over the next couple of yearsand publish this.
And he was like, No, we got todo it tomorrow.
What time is it?
It should have been done fiveminutes ago.

(13:18):
So I think you kind of get yougot two of us that said, Oh,
yeah, we could do this, we coulddo this.
And so we c I think we fed offeach other because uh looking
back, um, it was a lot.
It was a lot of late nights,early mornings um to get it done
and and a lot of help that wealong the way to Well, I can
tell you right now, Ryan hassparked in that idea in me or a
couple of times or two.

SPEAKER_02 (13:37):
I'll get that phone call and he's gonna he's got
hey, we got this, listen tothis, listen to this, Anthony,
listen to this.
It was really good.
It was really good.
So was there somethingpolitically, economically,
culturally that that somethingthat hits you, Ryan, besides
just the AI?
Were you watching like TV oneday and said, you know what?
I can tell by this newinformation that this is the
right time.

(13:57):
This is when I need to callsomebody and say, sound the
alarm, let's make a book.

SPEAKER_01 (14:01):
Yeah, I mean, I I I lived through 2005, 6, 7, the
like really the search engine,boom, like seven, you know,
getting in 2008, 2009.
What I what I learned in thatprocess was I'm gonna call it
the flywheel effect.
Like once you got ahead in thecycle, and you know, like if you
just look at the industry as awhole, if you look at the guys
that got ahead very early on inthe technology space, it feeds

(14:24):
upon itself.
So that's part of it.
That's part one.
Part two is just when youstarted to Google these things,
not Google, but when you startto use like AI tools, you start
to understand really how AIworks and how the data model
works and how things areconnected, what's important,
what's not, you start to just,you know, I would challenge
anybody to just go on Chat GPTor go on Gemini or something and

(14:44):
Google your company.
And then on the right hand side,click on it and see where it's
getting your source data becausethat tells you where it's
finding the information that itis like consumed to output your
story or the narrative orwhatever you're wanting to do.
And if you like as you do thatand you look at and you start to
analyze where the sources comefrom, well, a lot of the sources
that we're talking about A pro,we're talking about RTO, we're
talking about stuff or like justbad.

(15:07):
Not only bad, some of it waslike spam stuff from five, 10
years.
You go to you click on the linkand you're like, this isn't a
real website, but this is what'sdictating the narrative.
And then you know, I know enoughabout it to understand that
anything that we publish rightnow, and on let's say March of
2026 isn't getting into an AImodel until the end of this
year.
Like nothing we're doing isgoing to matter until 2027 at

(15:28):
this point.

SPEAKER_02 (15:29):
So this is where the speed comes from.

SPEAKER_01 (15:30):
This this is where you call them and say, we've got
to do it now.
Like I would be happy just youknow, even getting a a a less
quality product out the doorfaster because the speed is of
essence.
Like it will take six, ninemonths to render and train the
model.
So anything we're doing nowisn't coming out until you get
to, you know, Clod Fire or sixor seven or eight or something
like that at this point.

(15:51):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (15:52):
And I think it kind of to that point with what what
you were saying, like the I justread we're we're working on some
stuff in Wisconsin right now,and there was some opposition to
it.
And you read this these stuffcoming from these consumer
groups, and they're citing stuffthat's twenty-five, twenty years

(16:13):
old.
And using that to characterizeus that and you know, the these
I don't think most of anyone'sreally that deep on rent to own,
except for people that are inthe industry, people that deal
with the industry.
And so how they're doing theirresearch and how they're pulling
this information is throughthis.
Google is not the same way itwas six months ago, much less

(16:34):
five years ago.
Um, and that's not going back orchanging.
And so h how that people aredoing research on us, they're
pulling this stuff and thenthey're using it against us like
we're dealing with uh inWisconsin right now.
And so uh, you know, and that'sthere is an absence and there's
a void, and I think that's kindof what this does.
This is trying to fill the voidfrom an authoritative position,

(16:56):
a well-researched position thatis, you know, substantiated, not
just conjecture, not just madeup things, and certainly not
things that are characterizingan industry from 25 years ago or
something that happened 45 ago.

SPEAKER_02 (17:08):
Well, I can tell you right now that the way people
search is different too, becausewhat they would do is they would
ask a question, then it wouldfeed them an answer, and they
would ask a question, feed theman answer.
Now they go to AI and they go, Idon't want to get all these
answers, just figure it out forme.
Is this good or bad?
And it'll, you know, gather allthe data and say if it's good or
bad on whatever opinion.
And it's like, well, that that'snot good if you're not pulling
the right data.
So I'm glad that you guys aredoing this.

(17:30):
Flywheel RTO wants you to becovered this tax season, and
they have two amazing espressomachines to do just that.
They have the DeLongi classicespresso machine with milk
frother.
Listen, that thing is quiteamazing.
They also have an espressoventure plus deluxe coffee and
espresso machine with the milkfrother also attached to it.
Listen, you can't get thesethings gonna be on your counter

(17:51):
and they're gonna fly off forthis tax season.
If you want to know who to reachout to at Flywheel RTO, that's
Keith Brock, Flywheel RTO at865-369-5902, and tell them the
RTO show sent you.
Let's go back a little bit.
Where is the book's informationeven coming from?
So we talked about some of thepioneers that did it.
Where are some of the touchpoints that you guys created and

(18:12):
say, hey, this is where we'regonna pull from, this is what
we're gonna talk about?
I mean, Charles, you're goingdeep.
I mean, you're talking aboutlike, you know, pianos is I that
you're getting deep on me.
But that's part of the history.
So where did you guys go?
Where did you go, Charles?
Where did you go, Ryan?
Where did you guys go to to makethose touch points and say this
is a piece of the history thatwe're gonna include in this
book?

SPEAKER_00 (18:30):
Well, I'd say with, you know, I was fortunate just
being with Apro.
We we're celebrating our 45thand we just celebrated our 45th
anniversary.
So we were founded in 1980.
When Ed Wynne retired last year,one thing he told me was like,
hey, I've got 40 boxes over instorage that you need to come
pick up.

(18:51):
So we had uh this wasn't amatter of uh, you know, uh I was
handed like a significant amountof source material and not just
kind of, you know, uh just thethe actual the actual pieces of
history, like the the themeetings that took place here,
the notes from it, the researchthat really Ed being the guy

(19:13):
that was in the room in 1980 inDallas, uh Texas at Dear Love
Field at the airport, wheneverApro came into being, uh, and he
had that record.
I mean, this was just uh anincredible resource that we had
there to draw from uh and topull out of.
Um, you know, during thatperiod, APRO produced

(19:34):
significant number ofpublications, you know, the old
progressive rental uh magazineuh eventually became RTOHQ, the
magazine.
All of those resources we'vehad.
We've had very differentiterations of the website.
So you had all that as like theactual physical primary source
material that was really useful.
And so, and that included a lotof the you know, reports, the

(19:56):
data, the economic reports, allthose things from throughout the
year.
So that certainly inheritingthat, and that happened earlier
last year.
So that helped when Ryan calledand said, let's write a book.
It's like, okay, well, I've gotthe library over here we can
kind of draw from uh to getgoing.

SPEAKER_02 (20:12):
Ryan, were you the uh were you the mastermind
behind gathering all this dataand actually making some use out
of it?

SPEAKER_01 (20:18):
A little bit.
What I would say is I startedabout a year ago.
This is just for like wow brandsof marketing purposes was I
wanted to consume 100% of theinformation I can get on the
industry.
So smart.
About a year ago or whatever,however long it goes.
I mean, we've transcribed I'vetranscribed every podcast, every
YouTube video, every financialearning, every earning
transcript, every A Promagazine.

(20:40):
I mean, I've consumed 100% ofthe data, put it into kind of a
custom AI model that we're usingfor extracting information,
being able to just internally beable to ask questions,
understand, like I need the fulldata set of what's there.
And what I realized reallyquickly was there's no data.
Like, I mean, I've got somedata, I've got, I've got
everything that's available, butit's not a lot of data.
Like there's a lot of holes inthe story.

(21:02):
So it was a hell of a lot ofsearching and I mean using AI to
do research, trying to find thisdata, trying to figure out where
it's at.
And listen, I mean, Charles gotkind of the crap into the book
here.
He got all the hard chapters,and I got the easy chapters.

SPEAKER_02 (21:15):
Well, you know what?
I think Charles Charles had itall on VHS and like eight-track,
that's why that you say that,but we did.

SPEAKER_00 (21:24):
Uh he's like, no, no, no, that was a real story.

SPEAKER_02 (21:29):
So how important was it now?
Because I know that you know, weused some information from the
legends who had actually helpedstart this industry.
How important was it to the bothof you to have their
recollection of what happenedand their time frames going far
back as the early 70s?
We're gonna say late 60s, early70s, as they transition all the

(21:50):
way up through you know theHenry B.
Gonzalez, the IRS situation, youknow, April kind of getting
everybody together when therewas nothing.
And like you mentioned earlier,Ed Wynne was kind of there in
the Very first meeting, kind ofgoing, hey guys, we we've got to
structure this in a way that weare respectable.
Like, how important was it tohave those interviews also
involved in this book?

SPEAKER_00 (22:11):
I I mean I think it was it was crucial.
It was one of these things thatwe, you know, like this project
hits on so many levels.
Like this video series that thathosted by Pete Shaw, RTO Podcast
was just it was something weneeded to do anyway.
And I know you had you had youhad done a little bit of this
with some we we had theopportunity here to one preserve

(22:33):
it in like that type of acollective format, but two, just
having it we still have enoughpeople that were there to tell
the story.
I think one of the the thedownsides of any doing any type
of history project is you'realways starting a day too late.
It's kind of like the and Ithink we referenced this in the
book, the idea of like the bestday to plant a tree was 20 years

(22:55):
ago, the second best day istoday.
And so while that we we haveplenty of legends that we were
able to interview for this, andwe still have more that we need
to interview to add to thiscollection uh as it stands, uh
we lost a lot too.
Um and so that was uh that youknow, and that just if we had

(23:15):
started five years ago, we wouldhave been in the same place.
We've got had a few more that wecould have talked to, but then
there were still some that we'vewe didn't get to.
And uh but having them tellthose stories because those
these people were there, theywere in the room, they lived it.
Um uh and that part of it, itreally is what's the incredible
part of the story is the whythat what that we've inherited

(23:37):
at APRO, what we've inherited asan industry, what we see when we
join together at Meeting theMinds or an RTO World or
Legislative Conference, and thiscamaraderie, this togetherness,
this was really the fire that itwas forged in in the 80s and
90s, whenever we were justconsistently trying to define
ourselves in headwinds comingfrom all different directions.

(23:58):
And that that formed reallylifelong bonds of that the
Legend series really we wereable to go primary source
material right straight to thesource of the people that were
there that were involved thatunderstood and that knew the
knew the story.

SPEAKER_02 (24:12):
So those firsthand spreadsheets and books and
everything that you got, all thestuff that you got outside of
the Legend series.
How useful is that?
I mean, were you able to, wereyou guys able to like scan and
extract, really go back tocertain dates that made a
difference?
Did you did you make like adatabase and say, okay, these
years were hot years and weshould go kind of research that?

(24:33):
How how did that work out?

SPEAKER_01 (24:34):
I mean, a lot of it you follow.
I mean, it's not the best way,but you try to follow like store
growth trends, how many numbers,what's the total number of
retailers, what's the totalnumber of RTO stores over time.
I mean, a lot of that is tryingto trace that down and trying
to, and that's I mean, the betit's best guess.
There's no authoritative data.
We're making the best of it wecan.
Charles had some really old Apro like minutes that we were
able to use some of the data outof to try to answer those.

(24:56):
I would go back.
I think that, you know, I thinkthese things solve two different
purposes, or I have two theresearch that we did was very
much um, I'm gonna say somewhatindependent of what we heard
from the legend.
What we heard from the legendsis the true firsthand account of
what actually happened.
Um and I I do think that that'sprobably more the these I would
say the legend series is moreimportant than the book itself.
The book itself plays the roleof let's be the source-based

(25:18):
knowledge that we hope thatthings build off of.
But I think the part that peoplewill really find useful is going
to be the legend series.
It's the stories, it's thenarrative, it's the, you know, I
I there's nothing new under thesun.
Everything you heard in in thosestories and those narratives
going back 60 years, it's allreplaying itself.
It just replays itself in adifferent way, in a different

(25:39):
fashion.
But the truth is it's all thesame, it's the same thing as 60
years ago.
It's the same demographic, samecustomer base.
It's just a different narrativeand a different way in which
we're interacting with them.
So I don't know.
I I think the Legends was thehighlight of the book for me, it
was the legends here.
Like listening, and not even atranscript.
Transcripts were good.
It's fundamentally different.
I'm I'm listening to them livein the same way that you know

(26:01):
everybody else is.
These are listening to them liveis fun or listening to them
audio is fundamentally differentthan reading the transcript.
You can hear the passion intheir voice, you can see what
they're talking about, you canunderstand that they they
they've been through this grind60, 50, 40 years.
Like to me, that's the best partof it.

SPEAKER_02 (26:16):
Well, I will tell you guys what they're
referencing is the Legendsseries on the podcast, the RTO
show podcast is a legend seriesthat is in working in tandem
with WoW Brands and Apro assponsors of that.
And we have done 22 differentlegends that you guys have the
ability to go back.
Now, they will be released everyweek so that that way you have
time to consume and digest andenjoy.
But I tell you, I it's opened myeyes to so many things because I

(26:39):
have heard and talked to peopleabout things I never ever knew.
I mean, just crazy things andideas like, oh, we didn't know
that we were gonna do that.
We didn't know that this wasgonna be special.
We had no idea.
I mean, I had like fivedifferent people tell me, we
used to rent video cassettes andVHSs, and I was like, really?
And how that kind of spawnedinto, you know, appliances and

(26:59):
furniture and the things thatthey didn't even have or the
ability to get early on versusnow.
I mean, I can't think ofanything we can't get yet in the
early beginnings.
I mean, there were people likeuh rent owned.
I don't, I don't know.
That's crazy, that's a crazyidea, and how they powered
through that and still made it.
I mean, you're talking aboutfundamentally some crazy, crazy
situations that happened thatthey they powered through.

(27:20):
And, you know, just for a couplepeople mentions of some of the
great legends that aren't here.
We got Mark Windsor, we gotDaryl Tissett, Ernie Llewellyn,
who was just recently passed.
You know, sorry to say to thefamily, thank you so much for
allowing us to have them for thetime we did.
Terry Bevel and some others thatwere that were just instrumental
in our lives.
And I wish that we had theability to talk to them.
So as we're talking aboutCharles, I'm gonna ask you and

(27:41):
then Ryan, I'm gonna ask you adifferent one, but how do these
stories strengthen April'sadvocacy message to you?

SPEAKER_00 (27:47):
Well, one, they they tell it.
I I think I mean there's onereally good one that I that uh
it was just released recently,Chris Korst.
Uh he was um people are lovingthat one.
And this was just incredible.
He he uh worked for Renaissance,uh uh really did government
relations, had various positionswith him in uh legal and
compliance as well.

(28:08):
Whenever we're trying to piecethis together, and one thing
about that's a core piece of theI think of who we are, but it's
also a core piece of the bookand how the the story kind of
unfolds is the idea of we havereally a 47-state regulatory
framework that is 47 staterent-to-owned statutes.

(28:28):
Uh you know, effectively thereit's a model act with various
differences uh that have kind ofcome into being and uh evolved
along the way.
Chris was one, and he tells thestory about how that that
strategy really came together.
I mean, the initial idea was,oh, let's go get a federal bill.
We still don't have a federalbill.
I don't think we want a federalbill now.

(28:50):
But the idea of running kind ofa parallel strategy on the
legislative front of a let'slet's just go individual states,
one by one by one, which theydid.
And so I was I was kind of doingsome background on Chris to get
ready for his interview.
I went on to his LinkedIn pageand he had it kind of buried
down in there.
He was like, you know,instrumental in a 47 state

(29:11):
legislative strategy that, youknow, effectively resulted in 47
state statutes.
That was kind of it.
And I'm like, well, this is likejust such an incredible story.

SPEAKER_02 (29:21):
So that was pretty big, Chris.
We I mean you didn't takeenough, you didn't take enough
credit.

SPEAKER_00 (29:25):
I mean, I don't think he did.
And I think but but hisinterview certainly it kind of
came out.
And this is a real core piece ofthe book because this was I
think he hits on this, but thiswas absolutely incredible.
I don't know that it's reallybeen replicated, it's been done.
I don't know it could be donetoday in the same way, but it
was you had this going on andyou had so many people involved

(29:47):
and just so much activation onthe grassroots level.
So from our perspective, to beable to go and sit at a
legislative, like a committeehearing talking about something
to do with us and say, we'vebeen around for 45 years.
We are regulated by 47 statesthat we helped work through and
get past and adopted on those.

(30:08):
That's a that's a big deal, andit really cuts against like the
some of the uh you know thefodder of, oh, this is a new
thing and this is no, we've beenaround for a long time.
People still choose us.
We are regulated, we are verypro-disclosure, pro our
customers knowing what they'regetting.

(30:28):
We're not in a situation we wantanybody to misunderstand what
they're getting.
We we want the disclosures.
We're not like a retail whereit's a one-off transaction.
You come in, you buy it, you'regone, you don't come back.
We we want you to stay aroundbecause we need you to renew and
keep going.
And we want you to tell yourfamily and friends to come back.
Um and so this really kind ofthat I think that from our
legislative and our advocacypiece, being able to have the

(30:51):
story there and be able to tellit as this is a really it's a
great story.
Um I mean, it just really is.
And it's it's actuallyincredible.
And I think that that 47 statepiece uh and how many people
touched it that are still heretoday, uh, that we really
brought together through thelegends and through this book is
uh, you know, it's a reallyexciting part of it.

SPEAKER_02 (31:10):
I agree.
Chris, we appreciate it.
You know, I was telling you theother day too, Brad Dennison
made it on my favorites list.
I had no idea how much he haddone because I really only know
him through BMS and uh himtelling his story, and I was
just shocked at how muchinvolved he was.
Going back to you, Ryan, howdoes how do they validate how
does this validate the marketingthat you do and the the
marketing that the operatorsface on a day-to-day basis?

(31:32):
Do you get to say, you know,this is the facts that we have
behind it, and how does thathelp you?

SPEAKER_01 (31:38):
I mean, one of the things I came across I didn't
know about was uh one of the FTCstudies in the, I think it was
2000 uh or yeah, 2000, 75%customer satisfaction rate.

SPEAKER_00 (31:49):
Higher than uh than laundromats at that point.
That was one thing that we thatwas used at that.
Like, look, there were morecomplaints about laundromats
than rent to own whenever theydid that study.

unknown (31:59):
Wow.

SPEAKER_01 (32:00):
There's just so much data.
Like, I mean, the the there's anarrative that is pushed that
it's a bad thing and that it'sgot a negative stigma associated
with it, but like the datadoesn't justify that.
The data doesn't support thatremotely, and any let's just say
analysis of the data kind oftells you that's BS.
Like just look at your ownstudy.
The FTC did this one in thiscase.

(32:20):
And I would say it kind of youknow, aside the the part about
the that that I guess I Iappreciate it is is going
through this process is just I'mgonna go back to the cyclicality
of it all.
I mean, there's differentproducts, we're gonna start
different labels on it, andwe'll talk about this a little
bit later of how how technologyand what R2O's role in or RTO's
role in facilitating thetechnology is and all that

(32:42):
stuff.
And we'll we'll get into that ata later point, but it's very
much about like how um how do Imeet the customer where they're
at and how do I get them theproducts they want and need, and
how do I do it in the mode andmedium in which they
communicate?
Because that's the difference.
That changes over time, andfrankly, it's changed in the

(33:03):
last year.
And if you haven't adapted tothat, you've missed the point.

SPEAKER_02 (33:07):
I agree.
Do you see how they answer sodifferently?
Charles got one way that Ryan'slike, this is the data, this is
what I can, this is black andwhite baby.
This says you like it, and I'mgonna tell you you like it, damn
it, because this is what show.
I love it.
I love I love it.
So, you know, is the book youknow, the idea sometimes when
somebody says, Okay, we got abook, and everybody's excited,

(33:27):
oh, it's the number onebestseller, and the first thing
people go is, yeah, that guy'sgot a million bucks.
He made a lot of money.
This really wasn't about themoney, was it?
This was more about being ableto get the information and the
access to the information, notonly to the AI bots, not only to
the online, but to the peoplewho are living it, the people
who are curious about it, andthe rest of us who didn't know
that the history even existed orwent back that far.

(33:48):
I mean, uh is that a okaystatement to make?

SPEAKER_01 (33:51):
There is no intent of making any money on this.
And I'm I think Charles and Iwould both say we're both
spending a lot of money to doit.
Um, like this is an investment.
I mean, this is a five-10-yearinvestment at the end of the
day.
The reality is this story has tobe told, and if we don't tell
it, we're all going to face theconsequences of that.
I mean, uh the reality is wehave to get this narrative out.
We have to we have to be able toput out accurate and factual

(34:15):
data so that the tools that areout there can help make rational
decisions.
It's our job to present thatinformation, and if we don't
present it, somebody else isgoing to, which is where we've
been at so far, which is otherpeople are telling the story,
not us.

SPEAKER_00 (34:27):
Yeah.
And I think that was kind of thethe original.
It was not one, I think we'vegot a small audience in terms of
just the industry um and peoplethat will buy it.
This isn't one I think you'regonna be searching on Amazon and
say, oh, let's uh this looksinteresting.

SPEAKER_02 (34:41):
Let's uh Says you, Charles, it's gonna fly off the
shelves.

SPEAKER_00 (34:45):
But you know, uh Ryan and I at the very
beginning, we we talked about itand we agreed that any royalties
will go to go to the AprilCharitable Foundation, um
particularly the scholarshipfund, I think is the that seems
appropriate for for that.
So, you know, we we will begiving a lot of these copies
away.
Um it will be available uh the Ithink Ryan will touch on this,

(35:06):
but we're we're gonna publish itonline.
That's really this book andwhile on one level was written
for us, it was written for thisindustry, it was written for
really the future of theindustry, so that people can
join the industry and really sget a sense of pride in being a
part of it.
That's one level.
The other audience, and reallyin a lot of ways of how this was

(35:27):
written was for AI.
It was for Chat GPT as a theprimary reader of it, um, and
for it to be able to take it andto really replicate it uh going
forward.
So it works on a couple oflevels, but um I think that's
just really important.
You know, this wasn't like atraditional book that okay,
we're going out and we're gonnado it this way.

(35:48):
No, that this was uh aninvestment of time and money,
but I think we both werepassionate about and knew
looking forward to the futurethat this needed to be done and
it couldn't wait.

SPEAKER_02 (35:58):
So would you say like this is a a reference point
for future advocacy?
Because it sounded like for aminute there that there will be
a Legends series part two,because we left some people out,
and if we do that, will there bea second book to follow that
with some additionalinformation?
I'm just curious.
I'm very curious.
I think we're both reeling fromuh we'll just stick with the

(36:22):
podcast beat.
It's a lot easier.

SPEAKER_01 (36:24):
I was gonna say there may be another Legends
podcast series, because I at theend of the day, I think that is
actually the best methodologythat we should be using to
communicate these stories,anyways.
What Charles and I are doing, Ithink that if we were to sit
here in five years and aregulator got our answers as
they were trying to determinehow to set policy decisions, or
anyone is trying to researchrent to own and we're the ones

(36:44):
returning what I believe to bethe factual information on the
topic, to me, that's a win.
I mean, the the win is almost tonot be known.
The win is that when somebodyasks these questions in five
years, they get proper,incorrect, and factual answers.

SPEAKER_00 (36:55):
So if I could add to that, that I think this is where
Ryan and I were, I think, in theright position to be the to
write this right now.
Because we are coming at it fromthese different angles, very
forward-looking.
We're also this preserving thepast idea.
Um and I from that standpoint, Ithink what really we address the
AI and the future of that, butwe also, I think what this book

(37:18):
does, the the real effect it hasfor this industry, at least our
internal looking, is it reallydoes build that sense of pride.
My hope is that our dealers willbe purchasing or getting copies
of this books and giving them totheir new employees in some form
or another.
That's one idea of making a thisis a 400-page book.

(37:38):
We can dense this thing down tosomething a little bit more uh
digestible.
Um ChatGPT, can you shorten thisup for me?
So, but uh, but I think that,you know, if I'm if I'm a new
RTO employee and I'm coming, Idon't know anything about rent
zone.
I don't know, you know, I knowthese stores I've seen around,
but uh if I come in and I know,hey, look, I'm I'm joining

(38:00):
something just so much biggerthan what I see here in my my
town, in my store.
I I think that it really that'sgoing to be an effect of this.
At least uh my my real true hopeof it is that the people will
you should be proud to be a partof this industry.
And if you don't know it, thenthis tells you why.
And it really opens that door.

(38:21):
So I'm I think that there's athere's a need for that, and I
think this really hits on thatthat level as well, is in
addition to everything else thatwe're we're um we're addressing
with it.
So I mean it really does fit ina lot of ways, and I think that
was the value of both Ryan and Ibeing a part of it.
We we saw those different anglesand how that we could uh uh work
use this to effectuate that.

SPEAKER_02 (38:41):
So I mean, if I if I said the statement this this
book is as much for the futureof RTO as it is the past, that
is a true statement.

SPEAKER_01 (38:47):
I hope this sort serves as something that
resembles a foundation thatother people will build off of.
Like this isn't the end of thestory.
This is the this is us trying togive an authoritative answer to
what has been, but I mean, whatwill be is gonna be defined by
the industry and they're gonnahave to tell that story and
they're gonna have to get theirmessage out.
That's dealer to dealers,company to company.

SPEAKER_02 (39:07):
For for both of you, do you do you expect anybody to
now that you have done it andbroken the ice, do you expect to
see any other books on thehorizon?
Do you think somebody mightactually follow that lead and
write something about the RTOindustry?

SPEAKER_00 (39:18):
Just curious.
You know, I think it's kind ofthere have been a few that have
written, I mean, we've uh we'vegot some of the you know the the
the big names like the trapCharlie Louder Milks, the some
of the the older firstgeneration that that had books
that they either wrote orbiographies written about them
because they were thatimportant.
We've also got, you know, kindof uh some of our current
dealers.

(39:39):
Larry Carico wrote a book aboutuh his his business and his life
and his and sh his wife Sharon.
It's a great book if you haven'tread it.
Both of them tell their storiesside by side, and it it's just a
great format because you hearLarry talking about his view of
what was going on at this point,and Sharon's over here kind of
like, well, here's what I wasthinking at this point, and it's
uh it's a great book.

(39:59):
But Larry, Larry and Sharon tookthat on and told that story.
If it could be somewhatinspirational for other people
to do that, I think we provideda great format in the form of
the legend series to give sometime with you and allow them to
tell that story.
Uh I've I'd asked a few peopleto go out and write their
biographies before, and I meanit's uh it's an undertaking to
do this.
I mean, it really was.

(40:20):
I think uh and we had and weco-authored it, so it wasn't
even we didn't have to do thewhole thing ourselves, and it
was still a major project.

SPEAKER_02 (40:27):
So hopefully it will be I would say that makes you
guys experts now, right?
You guys are experts on rentzone, at least from today going
backwards now and writing thefuture.
Talking about experts, how wouldyou define an expert in in this
situation in this industry whenthere's so many contributors to
this?
How do we define somebody who'slike saying, is it just the time

(40:48):
of length in the industry, orwas there something that made
them experts as far as thepeople that you decided and the
people you focused on?
What was what was it about themthat you two decided these are
the people that I want to go tofor the first election of the of
the Legends series?

SPEAKER_00 (41:02):
I mean, I think part of it was uh, you know, it was
easy to see who and where we welaid out an outline and we knew
what pieces we needed to kind ofhave answers to and to fill in
and have some of those storiestold.
And so I don't know that um, youknow, there there were some
stories where people this is acollection of contributions.

(41:23):
It wasn't one person.
You could not identify this isMr.
Rent to own, and without him, uhthis wouldn't be what it is
today.
There are dozens of, perhapshundreds, of people that without
them this wouldn't be what itwas today.
You've got the obvious ones,you've got the Edwins, you've
got the Bill Keeses, you've gotthe Chris Kors, you've got the
uh the you know, the people thatwere in the room in 1980 when

(41:45):
April was founded and saw theneed for this association and
the advocacy work that it wasable to help drive over the
course of the following 45years.
But there are plenty of otherstories where people made their
contributions.
And I think that, you know, it'sa bit cliche, but this was a
huge team effort to get it towhere it is.
And there were people, whetherit was new ideas, the Whalen

(42:06):
Russell interview is one thatcomes to mind where Whalen's
impact of is, you know, ofbringing really the computer to
rent zone.
And he, you know, him making hisemployees learn everything on it
so they would be able tounderstand it and to understand
the need and the to sell it.
And there are just, I mean, thatthis is the problem.
We've got we only got 22interviews.

(42:27):
We could have done 44.
It's really a time limit, Ithink, of how much that we could
do.
And we were trying to write thebook at the same time as hey
Pete, where's that transcript?
We need it.
I'm working on this chaptertoday.
And um uh it so look, I I thinkthat that I think that's gonna
needs to continue.
There are those plenty of thosestories that uh that need to be
told and preserved.

SPEAKER_02 (42:47):
I think what's gonna happen, Ryan's gonna build an
algorithm uh for the next 20.
And he's gonna say, like, howmany stories?
When did you do it?
When did you start?
Are you second generation?
He's gonna figure it out.
I can just see the wheelsturning as we're talking right
now.
And Ryan's like, yeah, that'swhat we got this.
We got this all set up.
Wish I could have done that,man.
It would have been easier.

(43:09):
So how important was it to geteverybody?
I mean, when we say it, and andthis is more like a a thought
process and not necessarily afact-finding question, but how
important was it to have allthese different names and voices
and experiences on this book?
Because, you know, there was alot of them that had a lot of

(43:29):
stories.
And like you said, there couldhave been 44, but there could
have been 10.
There was a decision to add allthese in here because they made
a difference.
Was it how important it was itto the two of you to see it from
all these different angles?
All the all the history and allthe fighting that they did to
stay relevant, to stay in thespotlight, to stay on the right
side of the law through theadvocacy, to stay open when

(43:50):
things happen.
You know, I think Kathy Wenderswas telling me that you know
they had a big fire that almostdestroyed everything that they
had, and they still, you know,they they still got through it
and they still support thecommunity.
Larry Carico said at one timethat he had suffered a fire and
that he had to go back throughall the, you know, the the well,
the backup tapes had neverworked, but you know, he was
trying to go through thatsituation.
And, you know, you've got all ofthese stories.

(44:12):
How important was it to two ofyou to have all of these names
that we could at least fit inthe time we did contributing to
this book?

SPEAKER_01 (44:19):
I would say I think it's more important than the
book itself.
I mean, I I think these storiesand the narratives, a lot of
this is I mean, and I'mrelatively relatively new to the
industry in what, seven, tenyears, which makes me uh, you
know, a child compared to mostof these people at this point.
Like they've been doing it for30, 40 years.
Um, I don't know these stories.
I've heard rumors of thesestories, but there's I mean,

(44:40):
this is all oral tradition.
This is person passing it downthat's passing it down orally.
There's no there's nodocumentation of all this.
So I think you can't really evenkind of propose writing a book
without the the interviews andwithout the original source.
I I consider that I considerwhat you've done with the
transcript the original sourcematerial.
That is the basis for 70% of thethe history.

SPEAKER_00 (45:04):
Yeah, I mean we've that's the thing.
I think we've all heard we allheard pieces of it.
I mean, and I think that theeveryone has uh a piece and a
story to tell.
And what what all the all we didwas we combined it into 400
pages.

SPEAKER_02 (45:20):
I mean Anthony, we're gonna find out how good
this book is.
And he's got like 400 pages,man.
Are you gonna make me read that?
It's a whole encyclopedia.
Yeah, it it's an encyclopedia,you know, but I think we can't
get it digitally, right?
He did say we can get it onAmazon.

SPEAKER_01 (45:33):
So it'll be available for download.
You'll be able to get it on thewebsite, you'll be able to get
it on Amazon.
It'll be everywhere that youwant to be.

SPEAKER_02 (45:40):
So when we talk about putting all this
information together, right?
We're pooling it, you have a lotof history, we're we're building
a base not only for the AImodels, so that we have
something to stand on, we have aknowledge base to say this did
happen or did not happen, and wecan kind of go back and forth.
I mean, Ryan, what kind ofecosystem can somebody like is

(46:00):
this this can't be just for AI,right?
So we have we have a writtenbook, we have a book that you
can get digitally, I wouldimagine.
You have the ability to givesome some away.
You're gonna be on an AI model.
I mean, are we touching all thebase points with this
information?
Was that the, you know, is thatanother goal for this book to
say we are gonna be, like youjust said, we're gonna be
everywhere you want to be, sothat there is no question that

(46:22):
if you have an idea about whathappened in this day, what
happened to rent-to-owned, wheredid this information come from,
that anybody will be able toaccess this information in a
matter of time?

SPEAKER_01 (46:30):
I mean, absolutely.
The the the goal would be thatas you're down the road asking a
question to, or go we're gonnacall it Googling or Chat GPTing
or whatever you want to call it,when you're asking a question to
a to a technology at this point,you're gonna get back an answer,
and we're hoping that part ofthat answer is some of the
information that we've provideduh and collected it.
I mean, the real goal would bethat if we're sitting here in a

(46:51):
couple years, that you're ableto ask a question and it's able
to just tell you this is whathappened and the like what am I
supposed to do with this type ofa situation or this is the legal
situation that I'm in right now?
Well, based off of everything,Charles, you should be able to,
we should be able to spit outhere's the three or four or five
times that have been like that.
Here's the time, here's the wayin which it's been resolved, and
here are the policies that wereimplemented as a result.
Secondarily, what are thesimilarities between what is

(47:12):
going on right now and thisproduct release and what
happened 10, 20, 30 years ago?
How did that rollout happen?
What was the adoption lookedlike?
How did we, how was it marketed?
Because I mean, a lot, again,no, there's nothing new under
the sun, a lot of this.
It's all very cyclical.
It's all very, let's just saythey they seem to run in waves.
And being able to kind ofidentify those things ahead of

(47:34):
time or even be able to askquestions about what's going on
today.
Well, without the data to knowwhat has gone on in the past,
you're not gonna be able toanswer that.

SPEAKER_02 (47:43):
So I love the way Ryan's mind works.
It it is so data-driven, youknow, it's so analytical.
That was a I mean, absolutelyamazing answer.
Are you gonna say something,Charles?

SPEAKER_00 (47:53):
Yeah, let me add to that because I think that part
of the the cyclicality that's aword um to this is that I'll put
it for example, uh, with theWisconsin issue.
There was an opposition letterto the bill that uh that we're
we're supporting up there.
This this opposition letterliterally could have been
written in 1980.

(48:14):
And it was the same tired falseuh narrative and facts and
distorted facts and justeverything that comes out.
RTO's disguised credit.
No, we're not.
No, we're not.
You can return the item at anypoint.
RTO should be subject to an APR.
No, we shouldn't.
An APR is defined as the cost ofborrowing over a fixed term.

(48:35):
We don't have borrowing, wedon't have a fixed term.
Uh, you know, it some of thesejust tired old arguments that
we've been dealing with over andover again for the past 45 years
since we've been had theregulatory framework and been
promoting these things.
It would be nice to stop those.
It'd be nice to have, you know,at least in this format where
the in the various vectors thatwe're trying to introduce this

(48:59):
information from the book, fromthe stories, from um, you know,
some of the other things thatwe're doing right now with uh
putting this data andinformation out there, where
that those we kind of could doaway with those.
That would be the dream here isthat not to have another
opposition letter on somethingwe're dealing with in five years
that says RTO's disguisedcredit.
I think we've dispelled that.
Now, we may not have hadanything written that really

(49:23):
explained that and published anddigestible in a format that's
out there like we're doing hereand like we're doing with some
other things.
You know, while that thingscontinue to turn around,
hopefully that we'll be able toput an end to some of this
because um, you know, some ofthese things are just flat out
faults and they're it's a tirednarrative that was disposed of
consistently over the past 45years that has not stuck.

(49:44):
It doesn't stick.
But then you get a group thatcomes up and says, well, we
figure out something new and anew argument to make.
Um I'm I'm hoping that we've gotsomething that's with some
authority and with some plentyof footnotes and data and source
material to back it up to showhere, as I think we have to
dispel a lot of that.
So hopefully we can end a cycleof just misinformation that we

(50:05):
continue to have to deal with ona daily basis.

SPEAKER_02 (50:07):
Well, I'm gonna you know what?
You know, speaking of that, I'mgonna tell you right now, Ryan,
I am I am claiming this.
We're no longer gonna call itChat GPT, we're gonna call it AI
chatting.
From now on, you know, I'm justAI chatting this thing, and this
isn't this is gonna gosomewhere.
You'll see.

SPEAKER_01 (50:19):
Buy that domain real quick.
Hold on.
No.

SPEAKER_02 (50:23):
I am AI chatting.
So if someone listens to thisepisode but never reads the
book, what's the one thing thatyou hope that they understand
about the RTO transaction?

SPEAKER_00 (50:33):
Oh, I think look, I think I think it's a simple
thing.
Look, we could we and you youwould say it, what's a
transaction?
This is yes, we reduce it toit's a transactional format that
comes in a lease agreement andhas terms and conditions and
disclosures, etc.
It's not and we and we talkabout, okay, well, it's an item,
it's a TV, it's a computer, it'sa um, it's a mattress, it's a

(50:54):
refrigerator.
This is use value.
I mean nobody what's the valueof a computer or a TV?
It's the use of it.
I need I don't have a mattressand just that sits over and
doesn't in my house that doesn'tget used.
That's a good night's sleep.
My TV, my computer are accesspoints to be able to join the

(51:15):
the social order of things andto interact with people, a
community.
Uh my refrigerator keeps my foodpreserved where uh milk cold,
those those type of things thatthat I think that's the if there
was a takeaway that we getreduced to the legal, the
compliance, the thetransactional part of it.
This is about people needingthings and they've needed things

(51:38):
and they've needed access tothings for 250 years.
Uh some would argue, I hadsomeone correct me the other day
when I said this.
Uh that said, no, this goes backto biblical times.
This was not this is biblical,not uh the idea of loaning or
giving someone something thatwasn't a loan, that wasn't
subject to a usury interest rateor something else, but a

(52:01):
bartering, allowing someone tomake use of it, that goes back
2,000 years, not 250 years.
But so I think if there's atakeaway here, is that this
transaction exists for a reasonbecause it provides means, it
provides access.
Ryan and I kind of we still arekind of debating about this.
Is it about consumer access?
I say it's about dignity.
I think dignity is a little bitfurther into it.

(52:22):
It's about treating someone, howthat they should be treated as a
human being and given theability to have a good night's
sleep.
And it shouldn't be determinedor restricted because they can't
access credit, because theydon't have a credit history,
because they should have nothave to go into a charitable
store and get whatever they canget.
This is about being being ableto be able to be treated like

(52:44):
anyone else and go to arent-to-one store and be able to
have something that has thatflexibility and the ability to
return at any time if life comesup and they can't make their
payments, but also that goodnight's sleep that can help them
get up in the morning and toraise their family, to get to
work, uh, and to be a productiveperson and happy person for
that.
So that's a lot there, but Ithink the transactional part,
while it's important, that's notthe real story here.

(53:07):
Right.
I'm gonna tell you.

SPEAKER_02 (53:08):
I must have struck it.
He is pad, that passion iscoming out.
You see Charles coming aliveover there.
I've known Charles for a coupleyears.
I rarely see him get thatpassion.
He's like, this is it, guys,this is it.
So I love it.
I love it, Charles.
Different, you know, differentside of you, man.
I like that.
So, you know, coming into theend, now that we're kind of we
kind of decide, like, this isthis is something that we've

(53:30):
needed.
Not only are we creating astarting point, we're creating a
baseline for everybody to getthe right information and tell
the correct story, somethingthat we've probably needed for a
long time.
So thank you to the both of you.
Um, and I know we kind oftouched on it in jest, but is
there another chapter to the RTOrevolution?
Is there something else comingup behind this, or is this a
starting point and you give itoff to somebody else for them to

(53:51):
either create a part of anarrative or what story that
they need to tell?

SPEAKER_01 (53:56):
I don't know.
What I would say is I thinkwe've got the base knowledge
hopefully ready to go and cleanand and will act as a
foundation.
And I I hope that the story willstart to get out.
I think you're gonna play a bigrole in that, Pete.
I think that you are the publicface.
You are the voice, you're theguy that's doing podcasts,
you're the one interviewing andtalking to people.
I mean, the hope is you take theman along.

(54:16):
No, that's not.
I mean, the hope is that you'rethe guy doing these interviews,
you're the one creating these.
Dave, the transcripts and thepodcast are the core to all of
this.
You're the one getting theoriginal source material.
That's the key to this.
So I don't know, you tell me.
Is there another chapter?

SPEAKER_02 (54:30):
We were just past the torch.
That was a moment, right?
We were just past the torch.
Ryan did it.
Ryan did it smooth, too.
He's like, no, it was reallygood.
You do it now.
I love it.
I love the way it is.
Listen, guys, I want to tellyou, I appreciate it, you guys
are so amazing.
I really appreciate having youguys on the show.
You know, guys, when it comesout, and I want all the
listeners to understand this,when it comes out, you've got to

(54:50):
get the book.
You've got to download it,you've got to purchase it,
you've got to find a way to getto it.
I know it's 400 pages, but it is400 pages of passion.
If you haven't seen Charles'sface and you're just listening
to audio, trust me, it's it's avision that you he is getting
into this.
And I can tell you right nowthat it is a book worth to
remember.
You know, as we do, when we baseset, when we tell you all the

(55:11):
facts, when we tell you what'sgoing on, it's from a place of
passion, but it's also a placefrom concern.
We want to make sure that youunderstand really what's going
on in a rent-to-owned world.
We want to make sure that youunderstand where we came from,
how we got here, the trip thetrepidations that took us from
there to here, because you knowwhat, it wasn't an easy story.
Like you said, some of the namesthat were on there, Chris Corse,
especially being one of them, EdWynne.

(55:32):
God, all the people that we'vehad so far and the ones that are
coming out, they have really hadto trek through the mud and kind
of really go through a lot toget here.
And they are number one A plusguys, and they will hold their
business to any light that youhave.
Nobody's afraid to do that.
Check the books, check them.
This is a relationship business.
Charles wants to give you coldmilk and a nice place to sleep,
and I just want you to knowthat.

(55:52):
Ryan knows it.
He's like, that's it.
I see the passion.
But I will tell you guys thisbook brought together you by
Charles Smith herman, the A Prouh CEO, and Ryan Crash, the CP
CEO, CTO of Wow Brands.
I just so you guys know, theysponsor the show, but they do an
amazing job.
They've also created this bookfor you guys to consume and take
care of.
If you have any questions, hitme up at the show, Pete at the

(56:14):
RTO Show Podcast.com.
If you want to go online, youcan also see it at rtohq.org.
You can get the book.
I know that it's coming out verysoon.
We've talked about releasingcopies, and if you don't get
your copies because you'resleeping on it, but that's okay.
You can still get it on Amazonwhen it comes out, and we'll let
you know about that.
Also, maybe if we have time todo a Legends series two, we'll
talk to the guys and see howthat works out.

(56:34):
But I would love to bring thatto you.
And you can find us on Facebook,Instagram, LinkedIn, and now
YouTube where you're gonna seethis.
Make sure you lock in andsubscribe.
Get to the site, www.rtoshowpodcast.com, where you can
buy some swag and you can lookreally, really, really nice.
Also, Charles, Ryan, I don'tknow if I'm gonna see you there,
but Charles Must see a LedgeConcoming up pretty soon.

(56:55):
Legcon's gonna be amazing.
We have something on thewebsite.
If you go to the website, scrollall the way down, you might have
the opportunity to get a chanceto be a fellow of the podcast,
and we would we would introduceyou to DC.
And we're trying to we're tryingto hit a number of things in DC,
and that's the 100 number, guys.
You should be there.
If you haven't been there, Iencourage you to hit up the
podcast.

(57:15):
But if you can't, go withwhoever you have.
It's gonna be amazing things sothat we can have these uh
discussions where you know maybesomething happened at LedgeCon
and we got to get in the nextbook.
So what I will tell you is thankyou so much.
WoW brands do an amazing job.
I see them every, I literallysee them everywhere.
I don't, if you don't have WoWbrands, you need to get there.
And I tell you, Charles, Iappreciate it.
Ryan, I appreciate you being on.

(57:36):
I love the analytics.
I mean, Ryan just like hedissects it with a knife.
I love that.
Guys, any final words before wetake off and we tell these guys
they got to go buy the book.

SPEAKER_00 (57:44):
We appreciate you, Pete, everything that you do.
Again, I think uh everythingthat you did with this legend
series was just crucial to one,the quality that I think that it
resulted, uh, but also just thespeed that I think Ryan and I
were able to do to get thisthing produced as quickly as we
could.
So we appreciate your uh yourwillingness to be a part of it
uh and the role that you playedand the all the help that you he

(58:05):
provided us to make this happen.
I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_01 (58:08):
Absolutely.
And Charles did a phenomenaljob.
He got all the hard chapters, souh thanks for that one, Charles.
And uh I would, you know, Irecommend the the videos here.
Listening to the uh watching theYouTube videos, I uh throw them
on in dad and watch one everyday or two at this point.

SPEAKER_02 (58:23):
There you go.
Well, we appreciate guys.
Thank you so much for being on.
And I will tell you guys asalways we appreciate it.
So make sure you get yourcollections low to get your
sales high.
Have a great one.

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