March 27, 2025 • 31 mins
Imagine doubling your audience size and quadrupling your donor base in today's challenging arts landscape. That's exactly what Aubrey Bergauer accomplished at the California Symphony by applying business principles to arts administration — and now she's sharing her playbook with us. Her bestselling book, Run It Like a Business, packs all these insights into one powerful guide!
Aubrey's journey into arts administration began at the age of 16 when she realized there were careers beyond performance in the orchestra world. Twenty years later, she's revolutionizing how arts organizations approach audience development through data-driven strategies that yield remarkable results.
The conversation illuminates why classical music organizations must pivot toward audience-centric approaches. With declining arts education creating knowledge gaps, Aubrey explains that we can no longer assume audiences understand programming terminology or composer backgrounds. Rather than expecting potential attendees to educate themselves, successful organizations proactively provide context and entry points.
Perhaps most revealing is Aubrey's insight that arts organizations don't have a new audience problem — they have a retention problem. When up to 90% of first-time attendees never return, the focus must shift to creating meaningful experiences that convert first-timers into regulars. Equally important is giving special attention to first-year subscribers, whose renewal rates typically lag significantly behind long-term subscribers.
Vertical integration emerges as another powerful strategy, with adult education representing a particularly promising opportunity. By offering education programs, organizations can generate new revenue while simultaneously deepening audience engagement and creating more invested patrons who are likely to become donors.
For digital content, Aubrey recommends against seeing streaming as a substitute for live performance. Instead, she advocates using digital "appetizers" that stimulate interest and drive in-person attendance - what she calls "digital content driving analog purchases."
Whether you're a marketer, fundraiser, or arts leader, Aubrey's practical strategies offer a roadmap for sustainability and growth in today's challenging landscape. Her message is clear: combine artistic excellence with sound business practices, and arts organizations can not only survive but thrive.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Elizabeth Bowman (00:00):
Hi, I'm Elizabeth Bowman and welcome to
the Scene Room.
Today I have Aubrey Bergauer, avisionary leader known for
revolutionizing the classicalmusic landscape through
innovative, results-drivenstrategies.
Her tenure as chief executiveof the California Symphony was
marked by a doubling of audiencesize and a near quadrupling of
(00:21):
the donor base.
I just finished reading herbook Run it Like a Business,
published in 2024.
And I think it is a must readfor all arts administrators.
Whether you're a marketer, afundraiser or anyone involved in
the running of arts.
This is an excellent book toread.
(00:41):
So I'm really excited to talkto Aubrey today.
Aubrey is offering a freeaudience growth masterclass on
April 10th.
She'll show you how to reverseaudience decline with smarter
audience developments.
She will tell you how to stoplosing thousands of dollars on
every concert and use adata-driven approach to get the
(01:02):
buy-in you need.
Sounds good.
You can find out more aboutthat on her website,
aubreyberagowercom.
Anyway, let's talk to Aubrey.
Aubrey, welcome to the sceneroom.
Thanks for coming.
Oh, thanks for having me.
Elizabeth, let's start at thebeginning.
I want to know about yourjourney into arts administration
before we get into the book andall of that good stuff.
Aubrey Bergauer (01:25):
So many people end up going into arts
administration because theystarted as a performer often and
I guess that's true for me toobut, like in high school, is
when I realized this was acareer path.
And so for me it was age 16, Ithink, at my youth orchestra in
my hometown, and I was one ofthose orchestra kids, like you
know, dedicated and won theconcerto, competition and all
(01:48):
you know all that kind of stuff,and was sort of on that path.
And then one day the orchestrathe youth orchestra went through
an executive director changeand I remember them introducing
this new person to us beforerehearsal, saying like a
sentence about what that was,and for me that was the light
bulb moment when I realized, oh,there is a job managing this,
producing this.
And as much as I like myinstrument, it wasn't what I
playing, was not what I wantedto do for my job forever, and so
(02:09):
for me it was like this is whatI can do.
So the path has been that eversince I pursued degrees in
performance and business andknowing that that's what I
wanted.
And now here, 20 years later,is how long I've been in the
business now.
Elizabeth Bowman (02:20):
Amazing.
I remember when I was growingup and I was a singer a choral
singer when I was about 12.
And someone said to me that youcould make money as a choral
singer, like that could be a job.
And as you're growing up, youdon't realize that these sort of
extracurricular things can bejobs.
So I love that story becauseyou just think, oh well, it's
(02:41):
just too fun.
But then you don't realize,like who's organizing this?
Aubrey Bergauer (02:44):
How is this?
Elizabeth Bowman (02:45):
all coming together.
So tell me a bit about the book.
When did you decide to writethe book?
Why did you decide to write thebook?
Aubrey Bergauer (02:51):
I wrote the book because people were asking
for a playbook and it's funny,these things go hand in hand.
20 years in this business andover that time I've had a lot of
success working out thestrategies I talk about in the
book.
And some people think, like, oh, like, I'm known for my work in
California Symphony.
But the truth is, thestrategies I write about I
started putting into practicetruly my first and second jobs
(03:13):
in this business at majorcompanies where I cut my teeth.
So to give some examples ofthat and then how this
translated, I remember you knowI think I was 23, 24 years old.
I was the audience developmentmanager at the Seattle Opera and
there one of the parts of myjob was overseeing the Young
Patrons Group.
We grew that group to thelargest Young Patrons membership
group of its kind in thecountry through the strategies
(03:35):
I'm now known for.
That's where we started workingon patron retention.
That's where we started workingon segmentation and talking to
different segments differently.
And okay, that's how we grewthat group.
Okay, fast forward, the careerprogresses.
Later I'm head of marketing atthe Bumbershoot Music and Arts
Festival.
Through these same strategiespatron retention, user
experience, digital content wehad a 43% increase in revenue
(04:01):
and 20% increase in attendanceand I thought, oh my gosh, there
is something here.
Then I thought I'm never goingto see stats like that again in
my life.
I was like my career, I'm nevergoing to beat this.
And then in 2014, so now over 10years ago went to go lead the
California Symphony and Ithought, okay, I get to bring it
all together Same song,different verse started putting
into practice these sameversions of these strategies I
(04:23):
had been working out at theorganizations before, put it all
together from that chiefexecutive seat and we doubled
the audience, quadrupled thedonor base.
I mean, these are stats youjust don't hear in classical
music.
And so all of that at the time15 years of putting these
strategies into practice acrossmultiple organizations that
turned into the side hustle ofthe speaking and consulting.
(04:45):
And then, along the way,blogging, and then, along the
way, people saying like, okay,can we please have it in a book?
Can we just, can you just giveme the playbook?
And I thought, okay, let's tryto codify this in a prose type
form called a book.
Elizabeth Bowman (04:58):
I loved your book.
I think it's really fantasticand all arts administrators,
marketers, fundraisers, everyoneshould read this book.
Not to sell your book, but Ithink-.
Aubrey Bergauer (05:09):
No, I'm grateful when I hear that that's
the response.
It's like okay, that's theimpact, right, that's what we
want.
Elizabeth Bowman (05:15):
You emphasize the importance of
audience-centric strategies inthe book, which I love the
experience of the audience andreally putting the spotlight on
the audience, which makes totalsense.
The more I hear about this idea, the more I'm like why haven't
we thought of that before?
It seems that we have anaudience, we have performers, so
(05:38):
we have A and we have B.
Why not?
Which the script you know alittle bit.
Why has that not beenexperimented more on?
So tell me a bit about thatit's so funny.
Aubrey Bergauer (05:47):
I was mentioning to you before we hit
the record button.
I'm here in Indianapolis,speaking at Butler University,
and this exact question came upthis morning.
The question I've heard it somany times in my career and
probably many listeners have tothe question of do we serve the
art or do we serve the community?
Do we serve the art or do weserve the customer?
Versions of that question.
First off, not mutuallyexclusive.
We don't have to choose A or B,but, to your point, I think so
(06:11):
much of our artistic history wehave focused on the art, which
is why we are so excellent atthe art, so there's no shame.
I think we should be so proud.
This is a real theme in my book.
We have such a fantasticartistic product, abundant
supply of truly fantasticmusicians, right, all these
things.
And also, if we don't have anaudience, none of that other
(06:32):
stuff gets to exist.
We have to have people whosupport us and support us
meaning in the form of ticketsales and, as we hope, donations
.
So it's not mutually exclusive.
In fact, one begets the otherand we need each other.
Like I said, we focused on theart for so long and I'm not
saying don't focus on that.
I am saying we do need to focuson the audience piece, though,
because, as we know, growingthat success is focusing on the
(06:54):
audience.
What do they need?
What is their experience?
How do we help them come andenjoy the art that we love
producing and that we're so goodat producing?
So hopefully that helps, kindof like set the stage for not
(07:15):
exactly flipping the script butthinking like, no, we actually
really need an audience,otherwise we don't get to do
what we do.
Elizabeth Bowman (07:21):
It must boil down to the arts education
component here, because we havenow a full generation of people
who have had cut arts programsin their schooling, so they
didn't grow up with that type ofeducation.
So now we're confronted I meaninevitably with a totally
different audience than we hadbefore.
(07:43):
So that is likely obviously whywe need to change the marketing
strategy to this audiencecentric version, because we just
have a completely differentaudience.
Aubrey Bergauer (07:55):
Yeah, I think that's exactly right.
I think the lack of public arteducation, public music
education, is a huge piece ofthe reason why, just as you said
, why we have to change how wetalk to our audiences, how we
market to them.
You know, it used to be that wecould have a program listing on
a website that said overture,concerto, full symphonic work or
opera title, or you know, andpeople knew what that meant,
(08:17):
knew who those composers were,knew who those soloist names
were, knew who those conductornames were.
Those days are gone and I don'tmean to sound so dramatic about
it, but the truth is it's nottaught anymore.
So how can people know?
And once I started uncoveringthat with user experience,
research of smart, educatedpeople, but realizing, oh people
, my age, millennials I'm likevery old millennial, but
(08:39):
millennials like right, theyweren't taught this, they don't
have a music degree like I do,they don't know this quote,
unquote baseline information.
And then I realized, aubrey,it's not baseline if it was
never taught.
And so that really, for me,changed so much of how I think
about approaching the audienceand how do we bring them along.
We have a choice Now.
What we're saying right now is,if the knowledge gap exists.
(09:02):
Then I realized, as anexecutive director, I have a
choice.
Do I stick my head in the sandand say, too darn bad, go figure
it out, go look it up.
I heard arts leaders say that,well, they should just go look
it up, okay.
Well then you've lost a salebecause a lot of people aren't
going to do that.
Or I realized, aubrey, thenit's on you and your
organization to fill in thatknowledge gap.
So I feel like that's thechoice before us gap.
Elizabeth Bowman (09:24):
So I feel like that's the choice before us.
I think that people aregenuinely interested and curious
, and so we have that going forus.
Absolutely, because there are alot of very educated people,
like we were just talking about,who didn't have this baseline
education and we wrongly assumedthey did.
But they're investing inlearning more about wine or
(09:45):
bourbon or you know not to sayit's all alcohol, but they might
go to a museum and have anexperience where they're
learning about a differentculture or that kind of thing.
So classical music is nodifferent than that.
They want to have thatexperience.
But I think we need to figureout ways that they understand
(10:09):
they're going to learn from itand not just sit there and feel
uncomfortable.
Aubrey Bergauer (10:12):
Yeah, I think that's absolutely right.
People want to learn and, asyou said, that's to our
advantage, that's in our corner,and so if we're making the
choice, ok, great, then how do I, as an arts organization, help
fill in that knowledge gap?
The fact that people alreadywant to learn, that is that's so
helpful to us.
So then it's like we kind ofhave to.
It takes a lot of empathy.
We have to go back to kind ofwhat was square one for us, what
made that piece of musicinteresting in the first place
(10:34):
when we first learned about it?
What was the fact about thatcomposer's life?
That when we Like all thosethings, it's like okay, yeah, go
in the way back machine forourselves and think through like
yeah, that's those moments thatwe did have.
Like, how do we help bring thatto others?
Elizabeth Bowman (10:50):
That's great advice, because there are so
many stories about the composers.
When you were a music studentreading about them, you talked
about them with your friends andthought it was hilarious or
tragic or a lot of tragedy inthere, but yeah, a lot of
tragedy.
(11:10):
Let's move to data, because thisis a problem in the arts, where
arts organizations aren'tnecessarily sure how to dissect
the data or use the data.
I feel like AI is going to bevery helpful soon in terms of
figuring out and reading thisfor arts marketers.
But tell me a little bit aboutdata.
I know you're big ondata-driven decisions.
Aubrey Bergauer (11:30):
I think the more I learn about data within
our field, whether it's at theorganizational level and the
organizations I've worked for orI read research at a more macro
level, or even more macro, likeworkplace trends or things like
that that affect all of usinside and outside the arts, no
matter what, I guess level ofgranularity is what I'm trying
(11:50):
to say.
I feel like I'm betting on awinning horse, right Like the
data is what helps inform thedecisions I make, and we're in
an industry where you know,we're having to try new things,
we're having to adapt.
The world around us is changingso much and I don't know about
you, but I don't want to guess.
I don't want to guess at what Ineed to do.
I really would like anindicator of what's going to
(12:10):
work, and so for me, that's itbig reason why I'm always,
always following the researchand the data, and then I think
the other piece of it is good.
Data starts with a questionoften too, and so I think for
organizations listening, youknow, there tends to be this I
don't know tendency where wethink we need like all the data
or all the things are like yougo to a board meeting, and it's
(12:32):
definitely been true for me inthe past.
You present a few data pointsand then there's thirst for more
and they want all the metricsand all the things.
And it's like, okay, okay, okay, I cannot spend my whole day
pulling reports like we got tofigure out, like what are the
key metrics we're going to lookat and what data do we
prioritize?
Right, so I think that's partof some of the confusion or
overwhelm that there is a lotout there.
So how do we parse it all out?
Elizabeth Bowman (12:52):
For me, that's where it starts with, at least.
It either starts with a goodquestion or starts with like,
trying to find an indicator oflike.
What's the winning strategyhere?
What are the key performancemetrics that arts organizations
often overlook or should reallybe tracking?
Aubrey Bergauer (13:06):
There are, I think, five that I recommend.
We could go more, but I wouldall say five for now.
I'll talk through just a few ofthem.
But the reason I say five islike, if you can count it, on
one hand, that is simple, andyou just heard me say, like
let's try to avoid the overwhelm.
Data begets a thirst for moredata, like all of that.
Like that's all fine, but okay,let's just keep it simple.
So let's see a couple metricswithin those five I really
(13:27):
recommend for arts organizations.
First is look at your website.
Google Analytics data newwebsite visitors versus
returning website visitors thisis like one of the basic
built-in reports for GoogleAnalytics.
So few organizations look atthis.
Talk about fundamental andbaseline.
So few organizations look atthis.
It's so baseline, and everytime I work with an organization
(13:48):
and they look this up, it'slike mind-blown emoji because
and this was true for me in myown experience too when I first
looked at the data on this, itis something like 72%.
75% of website visitors over thepast year are new.
Not like new first-time ticketbuyers, like new, never been to
yourorganizationorg before.
And it's like what?
(14:08):
75% or whatever the number is,it's like this vast majority.
So when I first realized thatand then started seeing that
replicated at otherorganizations, I was like, okay,
that says so much about like itmarries the previous
conversation we were just havingof like who is visiting our
websites and what are we puttingon those websites to meet those
people?
Where they are, they're brandnew, they're not subscribers,
they're not donors, they'remostly brand new people.
(14:30):
So that's a big one where I'mlike start there, just know what
the website traffic is newversus returning visitors.
And then one other.
Maybe I'll give you two more,just because now I can't help
myself.
But another is first time buyerretention rate.
This is one that for mostorganizations it's up to 90% of
first time attendees never comeback.
So we say as an industry oh, weneed new audiences, we need
(14:51):
younger audiences.
But the reality is and the datashow nationwide it actually,
and beyond the US as well, thatarts organizations, in
particular classical musicorganizations, are actually
quite good at getting newaudiences.
We sell hundreds of thousandsof tickets to new audiences
every year and when up to 90% ofthem are not returning, that's
not a new audience problem,that's a retention problem.
(15:12):
The reason I say first timersis because if we don't get a
first timer to come back, noneof the rest of the relationship
can develop.
We can't get subscribers ifthey don't return again.
We can't eventually get them todonate if they're only coming
once and never again.
So that's why that particularsegment and data point is so
important.
And then one more, just becausethis was another one, that for
me, was a real mind blowingmoment.
Everybody looks at theirsubscription renewal data.
(15:34):
What's your subscriber renewalpercentage?
The data point I want tosuggest is break out first year
subscribers from everybody else,because the first year
subscriber renewal rate is somuch lower than everybody else,
and once I realized that that,oh, you have to treat your first
year subscribers a little bitdifferently and how you try to
renew them Talk about money onthe other side of that Like that
(15:54):
really was like a game changerfor me.
So, anyways, there's a few Icould go on and on, but of just
like some metrics, some keyperformance indicators, those
are three good ones.
Elizabeth Bowman (16:02):
That's really helpful when I think of the new
users on websites and that alsoindicates that a lot of people
are going to that website andnot necessarily returning to
that website.
So the same thing with thewhole retention thing.
So you want to figure out waysto get that audience to
continuously check your website.
And it makes me think of theNew York Times genius Wordle,
(16:23):
the game you know you can spendwell I think you can do it free
but you play Wordle.
A lot of people play Wordle andthe various games on there and
you can pay $6 for a gamemembership and have access to
like three articles or something, but it keeps you going back to
the New York Times brand overand over again.
(16:44):
And then, because my husbandworks at the Met, so I think
about the Met Opera a lot.
I think you know they have theMet Opera quiz that they've had
forever, like for forever, and Iwas thinking like their app
should have a daily quiz on it,maybe even like five questions
that are multiple choice, andthen people might go back and
(17:08):
then have the option to share it, just like Wordle, and maybe
people will catch on and go back.
And also it's like an educationthing, because if they have
that multiple choice, it's fun.
They're educating theiraudience and then they're
getting people to go back to theapp over and over and over
again.
I want to see more artsorganizations playing around
with strategies that areobviously working.
(17:30):
For these bigger organizationsthat have the money behind them,
like the New York Times, yeah.
Aubrey Bergauer (17:35):
I love this.
I think for me with New YorkTimes, it's cooking, right, and
it's like I'm always looking atthe recipes and I'm following
their recipes on Instagram andit's like but it's the New York
Times and the reason I mentionedthis and the portal is an
excellent example too it's likefor a long time I was like why
are they doing this?
Why is the New York Timesinvesting in a game?
Why is the New York Timesinvesting in a?
And then I realized it's thisexact concept.
(17:56):
They're keeping people engaged.
That's why they, as a mediacompany, they are faring better
than many of the others rightnow.
And just to put a finer pointon it, like what you're saying
about the Met, could they do thequiz?
It's like, yes, and then thatmarries the previous point of
helping fill in that knowledgegap.
But then I go even fartherbeyond like not just an opera
quiz.
Okay, here's what I justlearned.
I got to show this.
You know those candlelightconcerts.
(18:17):
People like roll their eyes.
The candlelight concerts, right, but okay, this is not an
endorsement for them.
But what I just learned is thatcompany also runs the accounts
like Secret New York, secret SanFrancisco.
If you know these accountswhere it's like all about like
restaurants and whatever else isgoing on in the city and I was
like no-transcript.
(18:45):
And there are those otherplatforms like come to the
candlelight concerts, right, butit's also like they're a
curator of all kinds of othercall it entertainment, cultural
and the broadest sense of theword experiences.
That's what I think an artsorganization should do.
I know somebody's listening andbeing like Aubrey who has the
time for that, but I, but justas a concept I think so
interesting of like not justabout the New York Times, it's
(19:05):
not just about the art on stage,it's like this whole ecosystem
to be a part of.
Elizabeth Bowman (19:09):
Yeah, in your book you talk about building
vertically in terms of businesssystems.
It really made a lot of sense,the vertical building, and maybe
you could just touch on thatbecause it sort of relates to
this topic.
Aubrey Bergauer (19:23):
Yeah, totally does relate.
So great job connecting thosethings.
So vertical integration is whena company brings in-house
facets of the business that usedto not be in-house, so kind of.
The classic example of this isAndrew Carnegie.
Carnegie originally made hisfortune with the railroads, but
(19:44):
then he eventually owned themines where they mined the ore
to produce the steel, and theneventually he developed a
training program for the peopleworking on the railroads that
eventually became CarnegieMellon All these different
things.
He's bringing under one roofmore facets of the business.
A modern day example is Amazon.
They are the masters of thistoday.
(20:05):
Amazon used to have deliverythrough UPS or whoever they
brought that under.
That's called Prime.
They used to have delivery, youknow, through UPS or whoever
they brought that under.
That's called prime.
They used to have their websitehosted somewhere else.
They brought that under theirroof.
We call that Amazon WebServices.
Now they used to only sellother people's products.
Now they sell their own.
That's called Amazon basics.
Right, and there's I forget,there's more and more things and
(20:25):
it's like, okay, that's whatthey keep doing is it's bringing
things under their roof, andwhy is?
Because revenue.
So this idea of verticalintegration.
For an arts organization, thequestion becomes what is not
under our roof now that is partof this broader ecosystem, we're
a part of that.
We could bring under our roofand monetize.
Education is a huge, hugeopportunity for that.
(20:45):
So many arts organizations haveeducation for children and
that's fine.
It's fine as long as it'sfunded, is kind of my quick take
on that.
Sometimes, if you're losingmoney on it, I'm like, okay,
that's a different problem tosolve.
But there's grant fundings ordonors or whatever.
But what about adult education?
We just had a wholeconversation about adults want
to learn, adults want helpcurating their experience,
adults want all these things andit's like you can charge for
(21:06):
that.
And then there are examples inthe book of organizations who
have and so now that's a newrevenue stream.
Adult education, smart adultswho either want music
appreciation or adults who wantto learn how to play an
instrument.
So often in our industry theway we think about it is if you
want to learn an instrument, youhave to do it growing up, and
then if you want to get good atit, you have to go to
conservatory or similar typehigher ed program.
(21:29):
There's not a lot ofopportunity to really dedicate
yourself to pursuing, tolearning an instrument outside
of that.
And so there are I talked aboutin the book several musicians,
including musicians at theMetropolitan Opera, musicians at
the LA Phil.
So we're talking major, major,world class musicians who have
figured this out and have onlineprograms that scale.
We're not talking privatelessons, we're talking online
(21:54):
programs that scale and servetons of people.
I think about that.
It's just one example of, yeah,this idea of adult education,
whether, like I said, whetherit's like an appreciation class
or history class or that kind ofthing, or this learning to play
an instrument, and you can goon and on with all the different
ways we can serve adults, butjust education alone, I think,
is such an opportunity for uswith this vertical integration
piece.
Elizabeth Bowman (22:11):
Well, it also educates the audience, which
makes the actual going to theconcerts more enjoyable, and the
likelihood of them being donorsis much higher if they're
involved in that way.
So not only are you having theminvest in a course, then next
thing you know they're investingin you.
So it's absolutely perfect.
(22:33):
I'm sure that's why it's inyour book.
It's a perfect circle, it'slike compound interest.
Aubrey Bergauer (22:37):
This is my new thing.
I'm like it's like compoundinterest because, yes, it's the
revenue stream, as you just said.
And as you just said, yeah,people want more than, and that
then matches the data andresearch I share in another
chapter on the membershipeconomy.
And what you just said is theywant different types of content.
They wanted the adult educationclass and they want to see
what's on stage and thatparadigm.
Right there.
(22:58):
There are two different typesof content.
One consumes Like.
This is the model now Netflixwears by.
If you watch a romantic comedyand a documentary two different
types of content you are way,way more likely to stick with
your Netflix subscription.
So, anyways, I'm getting allexcited and hyper over here
because I'm like, yes, yes,elizabeth, you get it, you
totally get it.
Elizabeth Bowman (23:14):
So this is why you're on the podcast, because
it's fun to chat about thesethings.
So, speaking of scaling, onlineteaching and that kind of thing
, I wanted to ask you aboutdigital in terms of what arts
organizations can offer.
Today, now that we're back inlive performances and not in the
(23:35):
pandemic live stream circuit, alot of arts organizations have
stopped with the importance ofthe live stream.
Tell me about your thoughts onthat.
Aubrey Bergauer (23:43):
I think the pandemic forced us to make this.
What now is a wrongsubstitution.
Like streaming is a productsubstitute and that's like it
had to be.
For a period of time we had todo that.
That's not true now.
It's not a product substituteand so those things are not in
competition with each other.
So that's thought one.
Thought two is all of ourcontent, digital content,
whether it's streaming or socialmedia content or any other
(24:06):
content like a podcast or blogor anything else.
All of that digital content ismeant to really stimulate
interest in the product, whichfeeds the funnel.
Okay, that's a lot of kind oflike marketing jargon, but like
it goes back to that educationpiece.
People want to learn.
Our digital content helps us dothat and then people want more
and it's on us as marketers atthe organization to provide the
(24:28):
steps for them to do that.
Basically driving people totransaction.
In the book I talk aboutdigital content, driving the
analog purchase.
That's the playbook on thatthat we want to employ.
So how does streaming fit intothis?
So, like I said, not a productsubstitute.
I also think that organizationsalso pandemic kind of forced
this too.
We wrongfully think we got tostream it all or give it all
(24:49):
away.
We do not need to stream a livestream a three hour opera.
The Met charges for this andthe Met is one of the few brands
that is truly a global brand ofan arts organization the Met in
Berlin.
Phil, they can charge everybodyelse.
I think it's harder to chargebecause the brand isn't global.
But that also doesn't mean youhave to give the whole farm away
for free either.
I'm a big proponent of that.
Like I'm here to make money sowe can fund our art.
(25:10):
So where does that leave us?
So I think organizations shouldstream, a little like let's
give people the appetizer, sothey want the entree, kind of a
thing.
Can we stream 10 minutes?
Can we stream the overture?
Can we stream?
You know, I don't know.
Pick something.
If people want more, great, wehave a vehicle for that.
It's called buy a ticket.
So that's really how I feelabout that.
And then I just want to mentionthe piece, because I get this
(25:33):
all the time is how do we payfor a piece?
This is something I just thinkas an industry we have to sort
out, because it is veryexpensive to stream.
I know this.
Anybody who's worked in artsmanagement knows this, I think
in the early days when thesecontracts were made, the idea
was that it could be anotherrevenue stream, so that makes
sense.
Let's pay the musicians more ifwe're making more money from
(25:54):
this.
Like I said, I think there'sonly a couple brands globally
that actually can successfullymonetize their digital products
that way.
So for almost everybody else,then I really think there needs
to be a collective understandingthat no, we're not going to
give it all away for free, andif the job of this digital
content is to move people to theanalog purchase, not charge for
(26:15):
it, then that just changes theequation of how do we pay, and
so what I want is for artists toget paid, but it's more of a
question of when, like, if weuse the digital content, be the
analog machine, grow theaudiences, grow the whole
pipeline, then everybody getspaid more, and I am here for
that any day of the week.
Elizabeth Bowman (26:34):
During the pandemic.
I really enjoyed the shorterconcerts that were done in when
I was working in Stuttgart, thestate orchestra.
There we had these noon houronce a week concerts that were
done by the orchestra members onrotation, once a week concerts
that were done by the orchestramembers on rotation.
It was very straightforward andI feel like conservatories
(26:55):
could easily rotate studentsthrough.
They could have 20 minuteconcerts even throughout the
year where you get to know thestudents that are in those
programs.
They can talk a little bit,they can perform a little bit
and then it's over and thatstudent then has marketing
material.
They have a recording, it's allpackaged and it's a complement
(27:19):
to the conservatory's marketingmaterial.
So everyone wins.
Aubrey Bergauer (27:22):
I think it's a complement to their musical
training too.
I mean, that's a whole othertangent of like.
How do we teach our musicianstoday, like the ones coming up
through these programs in theseschools, that in 2025, you got
to do more than play yourinstrument really well, like
it's just more that's requiredof you to be a successful and
the broadest definition of thatword musician today?
Elizabeth Bowman (27:40):
Speaking of community engagement, I love
this question because it seemslike the most important thing is
figuring out how to engage withthe specific community that
you're in when you go into artsorganizations and talk to them
about this.
What are your main suggestions?
Aubrey Bergauer (27:58):
One of the first suggestions is well, who's
on the staff?
You want to serve yourcommunity better?
What does that look like onyour team?
And board, too, is a piece ofthat, and the artist for sure as
well.
It's just slower to change,harder to change.
We're talking about anorchestra.
The chairs do not open, thepositions do not open at the
same rate as they would on staff, for example, or when
recruiting for a board wherethere's no cap.
(28:18):
So I start looking at who'smaking decisions and what does
that body of people look like?
The community?
That's a different answer thanyeah, but we programmed for
Black History Month.
That's a really differentanswer.
And yes, we should berepresentative in our
programming as well.
And in some ways that's aneasier place to start, because
any of us in programmingdecision-making roles can
(28:39):
absolutely make those kind ofrepresentative choices.
But for me, if somebody trulywants to represent their
community, truly wants to engagetheir community, then you
cannot have all homogenouspeople making decisions about
your organization's work.
The equation doesn't work thatway.
So the more I have personallyworked on like how do I source
the best talent from the fullspectrum of talent available on
(29:00):
stage, off stage, in theboardroom, the more I've like
worked on that, dug up theresearch on that, applied it in
my own work, the more I've justbeen so I don't know I was gonna
say pleasantly surprised, maybefulfilled, just blown away that
like, oh my gosh.
Yes, this is what it looks likewhen people aren't just like me
.
Better decisions, better ideas,more diversity of thought all
(29:23):
the things that the researchshows really lead to better
results in our ranks.
Elizabeth Bowman (29:27):
Definitely that makes total sense and I
like that because it's verymalleable and it can heighten
the skills of anyone on the teamand it gives people voices who
are there who might not thinkthat their obsession with yoga
is of any importance to someone,or they're really good at
curling, yeah.
Yeah, who knows I love it?
(29:50):
Are there?
Yeah, okay, I'll stop.
Um, anyway, aubrey, do you haveanything else you want to say
about your, your book or whatyou're doing next?
What's next?
Aubrey Bergauer (30:01):
is a question I'm asking myself a lot these
days, so I can't.
I don't have an answer for that.
I'm really thinking, yeah, whatis what is next serving the
field more, better, differentways?
I'll just say on the book.
I'm really thinking, yeah, whatis next Serving the field more,
better, different ways?
I'll just say on the book.
I'm really grateful for theresponse we started talking
about.
You know, there was an ask forthis like what's the playbook?
And then, as I'm hearing frommore and more people and
organizations who are like, yes,this makes sense and I can see
(30:24):
myself doing it.
And I'm like, yes, what good isit if nobody sees themselves
doing it?
So doing it.
And I'm like, yes, what good isit if nobody sees themselves
doing it?
So that part, I think, just tosee these strategies
proliferating throughout ourindustry, I'm like, okay, you
guys, I talk about changing thenarrative.
That's my whole brand.
I'm like, I think it'shappening like not to be so,
(30:45):
pollyanna, but I believe it canand I definitely see in bits
that it is happening and that'samazing.
Elizabeth Bowman (30:47):
Well, thank you so much for all the work
you're doing for the artscommunity in the States and
globally, because I'm sure artsleaders all over the world will
read your book and be influencedby it.
Thanks for being in the sceneroom today.
Thank you so much for having me.
Hi, I'm Elizabeth Bowman and welcome to
the Scene Room.
Today I have Aubrey Bergauer, avisionary leader known for
revolutionizing the classicalmusic landscape through
innovative, results-drivenstrategies.
Her tenure as chief executiveof the California Symphony was
marked by a doubling of audiencesize and a near quadrupling of
(00:21):
the donor base.
I just finished reading herbook Run it Like a Business,
published in 2024.
And I think it is a must readfor all arts administrators.
Whether you're a marketer, afundraiser or anyone involved in
the running of arts.
This is an excellent book toread.
(00:41):
So I'm really excited to talkto Aubrey today.
Aubrey is offering a freeaudience growth masterclass on
April 10th.
She'll show you how to reverseaudience decline with smarter
audience developments.
She will tell you how to stoplosing thousands of dollars on
every concert and use adata-driven approach to get the
(01:02):
buy-in you need.
Sounds good.
You can find out more aboutthat on her website,
aubreyberagowercom.
Anyway, let's talk to Aubrey.
Aubrey, welcome to the sceneroom.
Thanks for coming.
Oh, thanks for having me.
Elizabeth, let's start at thebeginning.
I want to know about yourjourney into arts administration
before we get into the book andall of that good stuff.
Aubrey Bergauer (01:25):
So many people end up going into arts
administration because theystarted as a performer often and
I guess that's true for me toobut, like in high school, is
when I realized this was acareer path.
And so for me it was age 16, Ithink, at my youth orchestra in
my hometown, and I was one ofthose orchestra kids, like you
know, dedicated and won theconcerto, competition and all
(01:48):
you know all that kind of stuff,and was sort of on that path.
And then one day the orchestrathe youth orchestra went through
an executive director changeand I remember them introducing
this new person to us beforerehearsal, saying like a
sentence about what that was,and for me that was the light
bulb moment when I realized, oh,there is a job managing this,
producing this.
And as much as I like myinstrument, it wasn't what I
playing, was not what I wantedto do for my job forever, and so
(02:09):
for me it was like this is whatI can do.
So the path has been that eversince I pursued degrees in
performance and business andknowing that that's what I
wanted.
And now here, 20 years later,is how long I've been in the
business now.
Elizabeth Bowman (02:20):
Amazing.
I remember when I was growingup and I was a singer a choral
singer when I was about 12.
And someone said to me that youcould make money as a choral
singer, like that could be a job.
And as you're growing up, youdon't realize that these sort of
extracurricular things can bejobs.
So I love that story becauseyou just think, oh well, it's
(02:41):
just too fun.
But then you don't realize,like who's organizing this?
Aubrey Bergauer (02:44):
How is this?
Elizabeth Bowman (02:45):
all coming together.
So tell me a bit about the book.
When did you decide to writethe book?
Why did you decide to write thebook?
Aubrey Bergauer (02:51):
I wrote the book because people were asking
for a playbook and it's funny,these things go hand in hand.
20 years in this business andover that time I've had a lot of
success working out thestrategies I talk about in the
book.
And some people think, like, oh, like, I'm known for my work in
California Symphony.
But the truth is, thestrategies I write about I
started putting into practicetruly my first and second jobs
(03:13):
in this business at majorcompanies where I cut my teeth.
So to give some examples ofthat and then how this
translated, I remember you knowI think I was 23, 24 years old.
I was the audience developmentmanager at the Seattle Opera and
there one of the parts of myjob was overseeing the Young
Patrons Group.
We grew that group to thelargest Young Patrons membership
group of its kind in thecountry through the strategies
(03:35):
I'm now known for.
That's where we started workingon patron retention.
That's where we started workingon segmentation and talking to
different segments differently.
And okay, that's how we grewthat group.
Okay, fast forward, the careerprogresses.
Later I'm head of marketing atthe Bumbershoot Music and Arts
Festival.
Through these same strategiespatron retention, user
experience, digital content wehad a 43% increase in revenue
(04:01):
and 20% increase in attendanceand I thought, oh my gosh, there
is something here.
Then I thought I'm never goingto see stats like that again in
my life.
I was like my career, I'm nevergoing to beat this.
And then in 2014, so now over 10years ago went to go lead the
California Symphony and Ithought, okay, I get to bring it
all together Same song,different verse started putting
into practice these sameversions of these strategies I
(04:23):
had been working out at theorganizations before, put it all
together from that chiefexecutive seat and we doubled
the audience, quadrupled thedonor base.
I mean, these are stats youjust don't hear in classical
music.
And so all of that at the time15 years of putting these
strategies into practice acrossmultiple organizations that
turned into the side hustle ofthe speaking and consulting.
(04:45):
And then, along the way,blogging, and then, along the
way, people saying like, okay,can we please have it in a book?
Can we just, can you just giveme the playbook?
And I thought, okay, let's tryto codify this in a prose type
form called a book.
Elizabeth Bowman (04:58):
I loved your book.
I think it's really fantasticand all arts administrators,
marketers, fundraisers, everyoneshould read this book.
Not to sell your book, but Ithink-.
Aubrey Bergauer (05:09):
No, I'm grateful when I hear that that's
the response.
It's like okay, that's theimpact, right, that's what we
want.
Elizabeth Bowman (05:15):
You emphasize the importance of
audience-centric strategies inthe book, which I love the
experience of the audience andreally putting the spotlight on
the audience, which makes totalsense.
The more I hear about this idea, the more I'm like why haven't
we thought of that before?
It seems that we have anaudience, we have performers, so
(05:38):
we have A and we have B.
Why not?
Which the script you know alittle bit.
Why has that not beenexperimented more on?
So tell me a bit about thatit's so funny.
Aubrey Bergauer (05:47):
I was mentioning to you before we hit
the record button.
I'm here in Indianapolis,speaking at Butler University,
and this exact question came upthis morning.
The question I've heard it somany times in my career and
probably many listeners have tothe question of do we serve the
art or do we serve the community?
Do we serve the art or do weserve the customer?
Versions of that question.
First off, not mutuallyexclusive.
We don't have to choose A or B,but, to your point, I think so
(06:11):
much of our artistic history wehave focused on the art, which
is why we are so excellent atthe art, so there's no shame.
I think we should be so proud.
This is a real theme in my book.
We have such a fantasticartistic product, abundant
supply of truly fantasticmusicians, right, all these
things.
And also, if we don't have anaudience, none of that other
(06:32):
stuff gets to exist.
We have to have people whosupport us and support us
meaning in the form of ticketsales and, as we hope, donations
.
So it's not mutually exclusive.
In fact, one begets the otherand we need each other.
Like I said, we focused on theart for so long and I'm not
saying don't focus on that.
I am saying we do need to focuson the audience piece, though,
because, as we know, growingthat success is focusing on the
(06:54):
audience.
What do they need?
What is their experience?
How do we help them come andenjoy the art that we love
producing and that we're so goodat producing?
So hopefully that helps, kindof like set the stage for not
(07:15):
exactly flipping the script butthinking like, no, we actually
really need an audience,otherwise we don't get to do
what we do.
Elizabeth Bowman (07:21):
It must boil down to the arts education
component here, because we havenow a full generation of people
who have had cut arts programsin their schooling, so they
didn't grow up with that type ofeducation.
So now we're confronted I meaninevitably with a totally
different audience than we hadbefore.
(07:43):
So that is likely obviously whywe need to change the marketing
strategy to this audiencecentric version, because we just
have a completely differentaudience.
Aubrey Bergauer (07:55):
Yeah, I think that's exactly right.
I think the lack of public arteducation, public music
education, is a huge piece ofthe reason why, just as you said
, why we have to change how wetalk to our audiences, how we
market to them.
You know, it used to be that wecould have a program listing on
a website that said overture,concerto, full symphonic work or
opera title, or you know, andpeople knew what that meant,
(08:17):
knew who those composers were,knew who those soloist names
were, knew who those conductornames were.
Those days are gone and I don'tmean to sound so dramatic about
it, but the truth is it's nottaught anymore.
So how can people know?
And once I started uncoveringthat with user experience,
research of smart, educatedpeople, but realizing, oh people
, my age, millennials I'm likevery old millennial, but
(08:39):
millennials like right, theyweren't taught this, they don't
have a music degree like I do,they don't know this quote,
unquote baseline information.
And then I realized, aubrey,it's not baseline if it was
never taught.
And so that really, for me,changed so much of how I think
about approaching the audienceand how do we bring them along.
We have a choice Now.
What we're saying right now is,if the knowledge gap exists.
(09:02):
Then I realized, as anexecutive director, I have a
choice.
Do I stick my head in the sandand say, too darn bad, go figure
it out, go look it up.
I heard arts leaders say that,well, they should just go look
it up, okay.
Well then you've lost a salebecause a lot of people aren't
going to do that.
Or I realized, aubrey, thenit's on you and your
organization to fill in thatknowledge gap.
So I feel like that's thechoice before us gap.
Elizabeth Bowman (09:24):
So I feel like that's the choice before us.
I think that people aregenuinely interested and curious
, and so we have that going forus.
Absolutely, because there are alot of very educated people,
like we were just talking about,who didn't have this baseline
education and we wrongly assumedthey did.
But they're investing inlearning more about wine or
(09:45):
bourbon or you know not to sayit's all alcohol, but they might
go to a museum and have anexperience where they're
learning about a differentculture or that kind of thing.
So classical music is nodifferent than that.
They want to have thatexperience.
But I think we need to figureout ways that they understand
(10:09):
they're going to learn from itand not just sit there and feel
uncomfortable.
Aubrey Bergauer (10:12):
Yeah, I think that's absolutely right.
People want to learn and, asyou said, that's to our
advantage, that's in our corner,and so if we're making the
choice, ok, great, then how do I, as an arts organization, help
fill in that knowledge gap?
The fact that people alreadywant to learn, that is that's so
helpful to us.
So then it's like we kind ofhave to.
It takes a lot of empathy.
We have to go back to kind ofwhat was square one for us, what
made that piece of musicinteresting in the first place
(10:34):
when we first learned about it?
What was the fact about thatcomposer's life?
That when we Like all thosethings, it's like okay, yeah, go
in the way back machine forourselves and think through like
yeah, that's those moments thatwe did have.
Like, how do we help bring thatto others?
Elizabeth Bowman (10:50):
That's great advice, because there are so
many stories about the composers.
When you were a music studentreading about them, you talked
about them with your friends andthought it was hilarious or
tragic or a lot of tragedy inthere, but yeah, a lot of
tragedy.
(11:10):
Let's move to data, because thisis a problem in the arts, where
arts organizations aren'tnecessarily sure how to dissect
the data or use the data.
I feel like AI is going to bevery helpful soon in terms of
figuring out and reading thisfor arts marketers.
But tell me a little bit aboutdata.
I know you're big ondata-driven decisions.
Aubrey Bergauer (11:30):
I think the more I learn about data within
our field, whether it's at theorganizational level and the
organizations I've worked for orI read research at a more macro
level, or even more macro, likeworkplace trends or things like
that that affect all of usinside and outside the arts, no
matter what, I guess level ofgranularity is what I'm trying
(11:50):
to say.
I feel like I'm betting on awinning horse, right Like the
data is what helps inform thedecisions I make, and we're in
an industry where you know,we're having to try new things,
we're having to adapt.
The world around us is changingso much and I don't know about
you, but I don't want to guess.
I don't want to guess at what Ineed to do.
I really would like anindicator of what's going to
(12:10):
work, and so for me, that's itbig reason why I'm always,
always following the researchand the data, and then I think
the other piece of it is good.
Data starts with a questionoften too, and so I think for
organizations listening, youknow, there tends to be this I
don't know tendency where wethink we need like all the data
or all the things are like yougo to a board meeting, and it's
(12:32):
definitely been true for me inthe past.
You present a few data pointsand then there's thirst for more
and they want all the metricsand all the things.
And it's like, okay, okay, okay, I cannot spend my whole day
pulling reports like we got tofigure out, like what are the
key metrics we're going to lookat and what data do we
prioritize?
Right, so I think that's partof some of the confusion or
overwhelm that there is a lotout there.
So how do we parse it all out?
Elizabeth Bowman (12:52):
For me, that's where it starts with, at least.
It either starts with a goodquestion or starts with like,
trying to find an indicator oflike.
What's the winning strategyhere?
What are the key performancemetrics that arts organizations
often overlook or should reallybe tracking?
Aubrey Bergauer (13:06):
There are, I think, five that I recommend.
We could go more, but I wouldall say five for now.
I'll talk through just a few ofthem.
But the reason I say five islike, if you can count it, on
one hand, that is simple, andyou just heard me say, like
let's try to avoid the overwhelm.
Data begets a thirst for moredata, like all of that.
Like that's all fine, but okay,let's just keep it simple.
So let's see a couple metricswithin those five I really
(13:27):
recommend for arts organizations.
First is look at your website.
Google Analytics data newwebsite visitors versus
returning website visitors thisis like one of the basic
built-in reports for GoogleAnalytics.
So few organizations look atthis.
Talk about fundamental andbaseline.
So few organizations look atthis.
It's so baseline, and everytime I work with an organization
(13:48):
and they look this up, it'slike mind-blown emoji because
and this was true for me in myown experience too when I first
looked at the data on this, itis something like 72%.
75% of website visitors over thepast year are new.
Not like new first-time ticketbuyers, like new, never been to
yourorganizationorg before.
And it's like what?
(14:08):
75% or whatever the number is,it's like this vast majority.
So when I first realized thatand then started seeing that
replicated at otherorganizations, I was like, okay,
that says so much about like itmarries the previous
conversation we were just havingof like who is visiting our
websites and what are we puttingon those websites to meet those
people?
Where they are, they're brandnew, they're not subscribers,
they're not donors, they'remostly brand new people.
(14:30):
So that's a big one where I'mlike start there, just know what
the website traffic is newversus returning visitors.
And then one other.
Maybe I'll give you two more,just because now I can't help
myself.
But another is first time buyerretention rate.
This is one that for mostorganizations it's up to 90% of
first time attendees never comeback.
So we say as an industry oh, weneed new audiences, we need
(14:51):
younger audiences.
But the reality is and the datashow nationwide it actually,
and beyond the US as well, thatarts organizations, in
particular classical musicorganizations, are actually
quite good at getting newaudiences.
We sell hundreds of thousandsof tickets to new audiences
every year and when up to 90% ofthem are not returning, that's
not a new audience problem,that's a retention problem.
(15:12):
The reason I say first timersis because if we don't get a
first timer to come back, noneof the rest of the relationship
can develop.
We can't get subscribers ifthey don't return again.
We can't eventually get them todonate if they're only coming
once and never again.
So that's why that particularsegment and data point is so
important.
And then one more, just becausethis was another one, that for
me, was a real mind blowingmoment.
Everybody looks at theirsubscription renewal data.
(15:34):
What's your subscriber renewalpercentage?
The data point I want tosuggest is break out first year
subscribers from everybody else,because the first year
subscriber renewal rate is somuch lower than everybody else,
and once I realized that that,oh, you have to treat your first
year subscribers a little bitdifferently and how you try to
renew them Talk about money onthe other side of that Like that
(15:54):
really was like a game changerfor me.
So, anyways, there's a few Icould go on and on, but of just
like some metrics, some keyperformance indicators, those
are three good ones.
Elizabeth Bowman (16:02):
That's really helpful when I think of the new
users on websites and that alsoindicates that a lot of people
are going to that website andnot necessarily returning to
that website.
So the same thing with thewhole retention thing.
So you want to figure out waysto get that audience to
continuously check your website.
And it makes me think of theNew York Times genius Wordle,
(16:23):
the game you know you can spendwell I think you can do it free
but you play Wordle.
A lot of people play Wordle andthe various games on there and
you can pay $6 for a gamemembership and have access to
like three articles or something, but it keeps you going back to
the New York Times brand overand over again.
(16:44):
And then, because my husbandworks at the Met, so I think
about the Met Opera a lot.
I think you know they have theMet Opera quiz that they've had
forever, like for forever, and Iwas thinking like their app
should have a daily quiz on it,maybe even like five questions
that are multiple choice, andthen people might go back and
(17:08):
then have the option to share it, just like Wordle, and maybe
people will catch on and go back.
And also it's like an educationthing, because if they have
that multiple choice, it's fun.
They're educating theiraudience and then they're
getting people to go back to theapp over and over and over
again.
I want to see more artsorganizations playing around
with strategies that areobviously working.
(17:30):
For these bigger organizationsthat have the money behind them,
like the New York Times, yeah.
Aubrey Bergauer (17:35):
I love this.
I think for me with New YorkTimes, it's cooking, right, and
it's like I'm always looking atthe recipes and I'm following
their recipes on Instagram andit's like but it's the New York
Times and the reason I mentionedthis and the portal is an
excellent example too it's likefor a long time I was like why
are they doing this?
Why is the New York Timesinvesting in a game?
Why is the New York Timesinvesting in a?
And then I realized it's thisexact concept.
(17:56):
They're keeping people engaged.
That's why they, as a mediacompany, they are faring better
than many of the others rightnow.
And just to put a finer pointon it, like what you're saying
about the Met, could they do thequiz?
It's like, yes, and then thatmarries the previous point of
helping fill in that knowledgegap.
But then I go even fartherbeyond like not just an opera
quiz.
Okay, here's what I justlearned.
I got to show this.
You know those candlelightconcerts.
(18:17):
People like roll their eyes.
The candlelight concerts, right, but okay, this is not an
endorsement for them.
But what I just learned is thatcompany also runs the accounts
like Secret New York, secret SanFrancisco.
If you know these accountswhere it's like all about like
restaurants and whatever else isgoing on in the city and I was
like no-transcript.
(18:45):
And there are those otherplatforms like come to the
candlelight concerts, right, butit's also like they're a
curator of all kinds of othercall it entertainment, cultural
and the broadest sense of theword experiences.
That's what I think an artsorganization should do.
I know somebody's listening andbeing like Aubrey who has the
time for that, but I, but justas a concept I think so
interesting of like not justabout the New York Times, it's
(19:05):
not just about the art on stage,it's like this whole ecosystem
to be a part of.
Elizabeth Bowman (19:09):
Yeah, in your book you talk about building
vertically in terms of businesssystems.
It really made a lot of sense,the vertical building, and maybe
you could just touch on thatbecause it sort of relates to
this topic.
Aubrey Bergauer (19:23):
Yeah, totally does relate.
So great job connecting thosethings.
So vertical integration is whena company brings in-house
facets of the business that usedto not be in-house, so kind of.
The classic example of this isAndrew Carnegie.
Carnegie originally made hisfortune with the railroads, but
(19:44):
then he eventually owned themines where they mined the ore
to produce the steel, and theneventually he developed a
training program for the peopleworking on the railroads that
eventually became CarnegieMellon All these different
things.
He's bringing under one roofmore facets of the business.
A modern day example is Amazon.
They are the masters of thistoday.
(20:05):
Amazon used to have deliverythrough UPS or whoever they
brought that under.
That's called Prime.
They used to have delivery, youknow, through UPS or whoever
they brought that under.
That's called prime.
They used to have their websitehosted somewhere else.
They brought that under theirroof.
We call that Amazon WebServices.
Now they used to only sellother people's products.
Now they sell their own.
That's called Amazon basics.
Right, and there's I forget,there's more and more things and
(20:25):
it's like, okay, that's whatthey keep doing is it's bringing
things under their roof, andwhy is?
Because revenue.
So this idea of verticalintegration.
For an arts organization, thequestion becomes what is not
under our roof now that is partof this broader ecosystem, we're
a part of that.
We could bring under our roofand monetize.
Education is a huge, hugeopportunity for that.
(20:45):
So many arts organizations haveeducation for children and
that's fine.
It's fine as long as it'sfunded, is kind of my quick take
on that.
Sometimes, if you're losingmoney on it, I'm like, okay,
that's a different problem tosolve.
But there's grant fundings ordonors or whatever.
But what about adult education?
We just had a wholeconversation about adults want
to learn, adults want helpcurating their experience,
adults want all these things andit's like you can charge for
(21:06):
that.
And then there are examples inthe book of organizations who
have and so now that's a newrevenue stream.
Adult education, smart adultswho either want music
appreciation or adults who wantto learn how to play an
instrument.
So often in our industry theway we think about it is if you
want to learn an instrument, youhave to do it growing up, and
then if you want to get good atit, you have to go to
conservatory or similar typehigher ed program.
(21:29):
There's not a lot ofopportunity to really dedicate
yourself to pursuing, tolearning an instrument outside
of that.
And so there are I talked aboutin the book several musicians,
including musicians at theMetropolitan Opera, musicians at
the LA Phil.
So we're talking major, major,world class musicians who have
figured this out and have onlineprograms that scale.
We're not talking privatelessons, we're talking online
(21:54):
programs that scale and servetons of people.
I think about that.
It's just one example of, yeah,this idea of adult education,
whether, like I said, whetherit's like an appreciation class
or history class or that kind ofthing, or this learning to play
an instrument, and you can goon and on with all the different
ways we can serve adults, butjust education alone, I think,
is such an opportunity for uswith this vertical integration
piece.
Elizabeth Bowman (22:11):
Well, it also educates the audience, which
makes the actual going to theconcerts more enjoyable, and the
likelihood of them being donorsis much higher if they're
involved in that way.
So not only are you having theminvest in a course, then next
thing you know they're investingin you.
So it's absolutely perfect.
(22:33):
I'm sure that's why it's inyour book.
It's a perfect circle, it'slike compound interest.
Aubrey Bergauer (22:37):
This is my new thing.
I'm like it's like compoundinterest because, yes, it's the
revenue stream, as you just said.
And as you just said, yeah,people want more than, and that
then matches the data andresearch I share in another
chapter on the membershipeconomy.
And what you just said is theywant different types of content.
They wanted the adult educationclass and they want to see
what's on stage and thatparadigm.
Right there.
(22:58):
There are two different typesof content.
One consumes Like.
This is the model now Netflixwears by.
If you watch a romantic comedyand a documentary two different
types of content you are way,way more likely to stick with
your Netflix subscription.
So, anyways, I'm getting allexcited and hyper over here
because I'm like, yes, yes,elizabeth, you get it, you
totally get it.
Elizabeth Bowman (23:14):
So this is why you're on the podcast, because
it's fun to chat about thesethings.
So, speaking of scaling, onlineteaching and that kind of thing
, I wanted to ask you aboutdigital in terms of what arts
organizations can offer.
Today, now that we're back inlive performances and not in the
(23:35):
pandemic live stream circuit, alot of arts organizations have
stopped with the importance ofthe live stream.
Tell me about your thoughts onthat.
Aubrey Bergauer (23:43):
I think the pandemic forced us to make this.
What now is a wrongsubstitution.
Like streaming is a productsubstitute and that's like it
had to be.
For a period of time we had todo that.
That's not true now.
It's not a product substituteand so those things are not in
competition with each other.
So that's thought one.
Thought two is all of ourcontent, digital content,
whether it's streaming or socialmedia content or any other
(24:06):
content like a podcast or blogor anything else.
All of that digital content ismeant to really stimulate
interest in the product, whichfeeds the funnel.
Okay, that's a lot of kind oflike marketing jargon, but like
it goes back to that educationpiece.
People want to learn.
Our digital content helps us dothat and then people want more
and it's on us as marketers atthe organization to provide the
(24:28):
steps for them to do that.
Basically driving people totransaction.
In the book I talk aboutdigital content, driving the
analog purchase.
That's the playbook on thatthat we want to employ.
So how does streaming fit intothis?
So, like I said, not a productsubstitute.
I also think that organizationsalso pandemic kind of forced
this too.
We wrongfully think we got tostream it all or give it all
(24:49):
away.
We do not need to stream a livestream a three hour opera.
The Met charges for this andthe Met is one of the few brands
that is truly a global brand ofan arts organization the Met in
Berlin.
Phil, they can charge everybodyelse.
I think it's harder to chargebecause the brand isn't global.
But that also doesn't mean youhave to give the whole farm away
for free either.
I'm a big proponent of that.
Like I'm here to make money sowe can fund our art.
(25:10):
So where does that leave us?
So I think organizations shouldstream, a little like let's
give people the appetizer, sothey want the entree, kind of a
thing.
Can we stream 10 minutes?
Can we stream the overture?
Can we stream?
You know, I don't know.
Pick something.
If people want more, great, wehave a vehicle for that.
It's called buy a ticket.
So that's really how I feelabout that.
And then I just want to mentionthe piece, because I get this
(25:33):
all the time is how do we payfor a piece?
This is something I just thinkas an industry we have to sort
out, because it is veryexpensive to stream.
I know this.
Anybody who's worked in artsmanagement knows this, I think
in the early days when thesecontracts were made, the idea
was that it could be anotherrevenue stream, so that makes
sense.
Let's pay the musicians more ifwe're making more money from
(25:54):
this.
Like I said, I think there'sonly a couple brands globally
that actually can successfullymonetize their digital products
that way.
So for almost everybody else,then I really think there needs
to be a collective understandingthat no, we're not going to
give it all away for free, andif the job of this digital
content is to move people to theanalog purchase, not charge for
(26:15):
it, then that just changes theequation of how do we pay, and
so what I want is for artists toget paid, but it's more of a
question of when, like, if weuse the digital content, be the
analog machine, grow theaudiences, grow the whole
pipeline, then everybody getspaid more, and I am here for
that any day of the week.
Elizabeth Bowman (26:34):
During the pandemic.
I really enjoyed the shorterconcerts that were done in when
I was working in Stuttgart, thestate orchestra.
There we had these noon houronce a week concerts that were
done by the orchestra members onrotation, once a week concerts
that were done by the orchestramembers on rotation.
It was very straightforward andI feel like conservatories
(26:55):
could easily rotate studentsthrough.
They could have 20 minuteconcerts even throughout the
year where you get to know thestudents that are in those
programs.
They can talk a little bit,they can perform a little bit
and then it's over and thatstudent then has marketing
material.
They have a recording, it's allpackaged and it's a complement
(27:19):
to the conservatory's marketingmaterial.
So everyone wins.
Aubrey Bergauer (27:22):
I think it's a complement to their musical
training too.
I mean, that's a whole othertangent of like.
How do we teach our musicianstoday, like the ones coming up
through these programs in theseschools, that in 2025, you got
to do more than play yourinstrument really well, like
it's just more that's requiredof you to be a successful and
the broadest definition of thatword musician today?
Elizabeth Bowman (27:40):
Speaking of community engagement, I love
this question because it seemslike the most important thing is
figuring out how to engage withthe specific community that
you're in when you go into artsorganizations and talk to them
about this.
What are your main suggestions?
Aubrey Bergauer (27:58):
One of the first suggestions is well, who's
on the staff?
You want to serve yourcommunity better?
What does that look like onyour team?
And board, too, is a piece ofthat, and the artist for sure as
well.
It's just slower to change,harder to change.
We're talking about anorchestra.
The chairs do not open, thepositions do not open at the
same rate as they would on staff, for example, or when
recruiting for a board wherethere's no cap.
(28:18):
So I start looking at who'smaking decisions and what does
that body of people look like?
The community?
That's a different answer thanyeah, but we programmed for
Black History Month.
That's a really differentanswer.
And yes, we should berepresentative in our
programming as well.
And in some ways that's aneasier place to start, because
any of us in programmingdecision-making roles can
(28:39):
absolutely make those kind ofrepresentative choices.
But for me, if somebody trulywants to represent their
community, truly wants to engagetheir community, then you
cannot have all homogenouspeople making decisions about
your organization's work.
The equation doesn't work thatway.
So the more I have personallyworked on like how do I source
the best talent from the fullspectrum of talent available on
(29:00):
stage, off stage, in theboardroom, the more I've like
worked on that, dug up theresearch on that, applied it in
my own work, the more I've justbeen so I don't know I was gonna
say pleasantly surprised, maybefulfilled, just blown away that
like, oh my gosh.
Yes, this is what it looks likewhen people aren't just like me
.
Better decisions, better ideas,more diversity of thought all
(29:23):
the things that the researchshows really lead to better
results in our ranks.
Elizabeth Bowman (29:27):
Definitely that makes total sense and I
like that because it's verymalleable and it can heighten
the skills of anyone on the teamand it gives people voices who
are there who might not thinkthat their obsession with yoga
is of any importance to someone,or they're really good at
curling, yeah.
Yeah, who knows I love it?
(29:50):
Are there?
Yeah, okay, I'll stop.
Um, anyway, aubrey, do you haveanything else you want to say
about your, your book or whatyou're doing next?
What's next?
Aubrey Bergauer (30:01):
is a question I'm asking myself a lot these
days, so I can't.
I don't have an answer for that.
I'm really thinking, yeah, whatis what is next serving the
field more, better, differentways?
I'll just say on the book.
I'm really thinking, yeah, whatis next Serving the field more,
better, different ways?
I'll just say on the book.
I'm really grateful for theresponse we started talking
about.
You know, there was an ask forthis like what's the playbook?
And then, as I'm hearing frommore and more people and
organizations who are like, yes,this makes sense and I can see
(30:24):
myself doing it.
And I'm like, yes, what good isit if nobody sees themselves
doing it?
So doing it.
And I'm like, yes, what good isit if nobody sees themselves
doing it?
So that part, I think, just tosee these strategies
proliferating throughout ourindustry, I'm like, okay, you
guys, I talk about changing thenarrative.
That's my whole brand.
I'm like, I think it'shappening like not to be so,
(30:45):
pollyanna, but I believe it canand I definitely see in bits
that it is happening and that'samazing.
Elizabeth Bowman (30:47):
Well, thank you so much for all the work
you're doing for the artscommunity in the States and
globally, because I'm sure artsleaders all over the world will
read your book and be influencedby it.
Thanks for being in the sceneroom today.
Thank you so much for having me.
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