May 22, 2025 • 32 mins
Barry Shiffman challenges the doom-and-gloom narrative surrounding classical music by spotlighting the remarkable growth of chamber music across North America. Drawing from his roles as Executive Director of the Banff International String Quartet Competition, and Associate Dean and Director of Chamber Music at the Glenn Gould School and Dean of the Taylor Performance Academy for Young Artists at Toronto’s Royal Conservatory of Music, and Artistic Director of Classical Music & Rockport Chamber Music Festival, Shiffman shares stories of thriving festivals, purpose-built venues, and passionate audiences redefining the art form’s future.
From Rockport Music’s evolution—from volunteer-run gallery concerts to a year-round presenter with its own performance center—to similar transformations in La Jolla and Parry Sound, this episode reveals how grassroots enthusiasm has sparked major investment in chamber music.
Shiffman ties this growth to the art form’s unique intimacy: the direct connection between performers and audience, the communal experience, and the personal resonance audiences are craving today. At Banff, this intimacy creates an immersive, high-stakes environment where audiences become advocates and every quartet leaves with meaningful career momentum.
For aspiring musicians, Shiffman emphasizes that exceptional listening—both musical and interpersonal—is key to unlocking the “flow state” that defines great ensemble work and, ultimately, quartet success.
Whether you’re a chamber music devotee or simply curious about where classical music is thriving, this episode reveals a flourishing art form that brings people together through shared experiences, deep artistry, and a powerful sense of belonging.
All episodes are also available in video form on our YouTube Channel. All episodes are hosted by Elizabeth (Lizzie) Bowman.
Don’t forget to subscribe, share the love, and leave us a review to show your support—it means a lot to us!
Don't hesitate to reach out to us with guest ideas, information you'd like covered, or any ideas you might have—the hope is for this to be a continuous resource and dialogue with our listeners.
Visit TheSceneRoom.com for more information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Elizabeth Bowman (00:00):
Hi, I'm Elizabeth Bowman and welcome to
the Scene Room.
Today I have Barry Shiffman inthe room.
It's tough to describe Barry'sprofessional history.
He's had so many roles acrossso many different avenues.
He is a violinist, a violist.
(00:20):
He has had a career performing,recording, teaching,
administrating.
Right now he is the executivedirector of the Banff
International String Quartetcompetition, the Royal
(00:46):
Conservatory of Music in Toronto, as both Associate Dean and
Director of Chamber Music at theGlenn Gould School and Dean of
the Philip and Ellie TaylorPerformance Academy for Young
Artists.
He is also Artistic Director ofthe Classical Music in Rockport
Chamber Music Festival.
He's also a sought-after juror.
He has served on the jury ofthe Tchaikovsky and Montreal
Violin competitions, as well asLondon's Wigmore Hall, geneva,
(01:09):
banff and Lyon String Quartetcompetitions.
In addition to his work atBanff Centre, rockport and the
Royal Conservatory, he hasserved as executive artistic
director of Vancouver's Music inthe Morning concert since 2009.
So Barry has his hands in a lotof this classical chamber music
(01:31):
business.
So what a delight to have himhere today.
If you're enjoying the podcast,please do like, share, review,
do any of those things.
It really helps keep theseconversations going.
Let's get to it, barry.
Welcome to the scene room.
Thanks so much for coming.
Barry Shiffman (01:47):
Great to be with you, Lizzie.
Elizabeth Bowman (01:48):
So great to have someone's perspective from
the chamber music and stringworld, because I've had a lot of
singers and also administratorsfor opera and that kind of
thing.
So it's really, really great toget your perspective on this
podcast.
Barry Shiffman (02:06):
Happy to be here .
Elizabeth Bowman (02:07):
So you've spent your life steeped in the
industry, as a performer, as aneducator, as a curator of
programs, artistic director andall the things.
How would you describe thecurrent state of the industry?
Barry Shiffman (02:23):
Oh yeah, well, that's a great question and
something a lot of people arecurious about.
So the industry is that's a bigword.
So I don't feel I can speak tothe entertainment industry or
the recording industry or themusic industry.
The classical music industry issomething I feel I know pretty
well and I think we've done apretty horrific job of
realistically describing thingsthat are happening.
(02:45):
We're very good at describingeverything that's wrong, so
you'll hear all sorts ofwonderful stories of declining
audiences, struggles even at theMetropolitan Opera, financial
struggles, orchestras that can'tget audiences all sorts of
challenges.
What we're not very good at isdescribing incredible growth in
(03:06):
the industry and opportunity andin the chamber music world.
That's what I'm seeing, and yetthat story isn't getting told.
It isn't even getting told atplaces like Chamber Music
America, which is, you know, anorganization that, by the nature
of their task, they do a lot offocusing on what are problems.
Let's focus on for a secondwhat's really good.
I have a lot of focusing onwhat are problems.
Let's focus on for a secondwhat's really good.
(03:26):
I have a career that youmentioned has a number of touch
points, so you know, educating.
I present a festival inRockport, massachusetts, for
Rockport music and I direct theInternational String Quartet
competition in Banff.
The exponential growth ofchamber music festivals in North
America is an enormous storythat isn't getting told.
If you look, just as an example, at Rockport Music in
(03:46):
Massachusetts, I used to go toRockport Music when the St
Lawrence Quartet was young, wehad just won Banff and we went
to this small little town,sleepy town in beautiful New
England and on Cape Ann We'dplay concerts for this little
series that had, I think at thattime, three or four weekends of
concerts, almost entirelyvolunteer run.
The board members would movethe chairs into the Art
Association building, they wouldmake little cookies and you'd
(04:07):
have them for dessert and it wasvery hands-on and endearing.
That wasn't that long ago andthat organization then
themselves raised money, pulledno debt and built the Shilinlu
Performance Center on theincredible water of Rockport.
And that little chamber musicfestival that was a few weekends
(04:28):
in the summer is a12-month-a-year multi-genre
presenting organization with anenormous chamber music festival
that I'm involved in classicalmusic during the year, a jazz
festival, a Celtic festival, aneducation department, a jazz
camp.
Recordings, podcasts, videos,and it's sensational.
But it's not the only examplelike that.
Look at La Jolla in California.
Look in Canada at Festival ofthe Sound in Parry Sound,
(04:51):
ontario.
Have you been to Parry Sound,ontario, lizzie?
Elizabeth Bowman (04:53):
I have.
Yeah, I've never been to thefestival, but I've heard it it's
lovely.
Barry Shiffman (04:58):
Parry Sound's lovely, you know, you can go
fishing and you can go swimmingand you can eat like lots of
fried food and it's, it's agreat place.
It's not where you'd expect ahotbed of classical chamber
music, but there you have it.
There was an incredible desirefor this.
In the summers, concerts usedto happen in the school
gymnasium and such was theexcitement that they got
together and they built thestocky center for music and they
(05:21):
have an incredible summerfestival and go through prince
edward county you could just.
When I was in the quartet, bythe time I left, we were busy
from Memorial Day weekend weplayed almost every single day
until Labor Day, differentfestivals popping up, new, one,
new, one, new one, new, one, newone.
So that, to me, is amazing andthat's a story we don't talk
about.
And for me, because I'minvolved in identifying the next
(05:42):
quartets that have a potentialfor a career through their work
at the band competition, I feelmorally okay that we're doing
this, that we're actuallyidentifying groups, because I
know that there is opportunityfor them.
Elizabeth Bowman (05:54):
I feel like chamber music in general has all
of the ingredients of whatfuture and current audiences
want, of what future and currentaudiences want.
So the idea of connecting on anintimate level with the
performers and the performances.
Chamber music has all of thatbecause, just inherently, you
(06:18):
have a small ensemble andoftentimes you'll have
performers talking to theaudience about what they're
doing and the programming isoften well curated and there's a
thematic thread to it, sopeople know what to expect.
The conversation afterwards isaccessible and relatable because
(06:43):
they make it so.
So I understand this growth andwhy it's happening and think
that you know, if peoplelistening to this podcast have
not been to a chamber festival,that they should definitely go
and experience it.
Barry Shiffman (06:58):
Yeah, I think you've touched on a number of
things that are some of thesecret ingredients, and one of
those is exactly that thatyou're close to the action and
so already you have a leg upover events in large halls,
where even a great performanceof opera or a great symphonic
experience you're still removedphysically.
So there's something veryexciting about being very close.
(07:19):
That's wonderful, and I thinkyou're right as well that there
is a growing, there's a desirefrom artists to reach out to the
audience and connect beyond themusic on the stage.
So you're seeing lots ofartists, like you mentioned,
speak from the stage, shareanecdotes, take questions and
answers, and I wondered whythere's so much interest in this
.
And I've come to understandthat in life today, for many
(07:40):
people we've lost community as acore value and when you go to
the concert hall you have thiscommunity experience and that's
as important as the music that'scoming off the stage.
You know, I teach at the GlennGould School, as you know, and
Glenn Gould was an amazingmusician, an amazing genius and
such a celebrated Canadian, andI think he got it wrong like
completely.
(08:01):
He played great, but you knowhe was convinced that the better
experience was making music inthe recording studio.
I don't understand how hemissed all the good that happens
in the concert hall.
I wish I could meet him now andinvite him to one of the
festivals and show him how greatthat is.
You know, it's funny becausewhen he made many of his
television shows for CBC theywere often almost like a living
room setting.
(08:21):
So he desired that sort ofinformality and community but
yet couldn't find that in theconcert stage.
And I think today we have lotsof opportunity for that in the
festivals.
Elizabeth Bowman (08:31):
Yeah, I grew up in Ottawa and Ottawa is known
for its chamber music.
Obviously they have the OttawaChamber Festival and also now
Music and Beyond.
And I remember as a teenagerwhen Chamber Fest would start,
people would line up with theirlawn chairs.
Like that's how the lineups toget into the hall.
(08:52):
They would bring lawn chairsbecause you know they wanted
great seats.
It was general seating and sothey would go hours before they
even opened the doors and thatkind of vibe.
It was an impressionableexperience for me because I was
luckily aware of all these greatchamber works at a very young
(09:14):
age and, yeah, I think I wouldsay it was life changing for
someone.
Barry Shiffman (09:20):
Yeah, and for you and I would say for me as
well, and for so many musiciansthat were invited to Ottawa.
I had heard about the festivalbut we hadn't been invited.
And finally we were invited togo to this festival in Ottawa.
And we head out to Ottawa andwe walked from our hotel to I
think it was Dominion ChalmersChurch or wherever it was that
we were playing, and we saw thatscene you just described.
There were hundreds of peoplelined up and it was such an ego
(09:41):
boost.
We thought, wow, this isawesome.
They must have heard that we'rereally good.
And it was just.
I'd never seen people line upfor a concert.
So we're just, we're so excited.
And then jeff in the quartet,he's like, hey, look down the
street, there's another churchand there's a concert there and
there's another lineup, likewhat is going on here.
There was such an appetite formusic and for community and I
think the lining up, thebringing the lawn chair, the
(10:01):
suffering through the heat ofthe church, all of that
experience was as important asthen taking in the amazing music
that was being curated andpeople came and studied Ottawa
as an example of success,because it was such an anomaly
just in terms of the numbers.
At one point I read that theyattracted more people to the
Chamber Music Festival than tothe National Arts Center's
summer programs.
Elizabeth Bowman (10:22):
Yeah, I can see that.
But part of that is the geniusof the curation and we can all
learn from that.
All the institutions certainlycan still learn from that
audience connection andexperience.
And, like you say, it's allpart of that experience the
community connection, thesitting down on those lawn
chairs and there would be hotdog stands nearby and things
(10:44):
like that, like you'reincorporating the whole
community, and that's what weneed to do as an industry in the
classical arts and in any ofthe art.
Barry Shiffman (10:52):
Yeah, yeah, so agree.
Elizabeth Bowman (10:53):
So tell me what's going on.
It's a competition year atBanff.
Barry Shiffman (10:58):
Yeah, it's a competition year.
This is a really particularlyfun time in my year.
So we've just finished theGlenn Gould School season and
the Taylor Academy, which is thepre-college prep program that I
run, and now I focus myattention on two things.
One, the Rockport Chamber MusicFestival starts in the middle
of June.
We open with Angela Hewitt andwe have an incredible number of
concerts and they're sellinggreat and we're excited about
that.
We have Josh Bell and StephenIsserlis and Jeremy Denk coming
(11:21):
for a weekend, so very excitingstuff.
And we have previous winners ofthe Banff competition the Dover
Quartet, isidore Quartet, bothon our series and, as you
mentioned, it is a BanffInternational String Quartet
competition year.
Every three years we run thecompetition.
You know I mentioned before theimportance of community.
Our audience is legendary.
We have a pretty much 100%return rate.
(11:43):
Those that have come want tocome again and the audience
comes and spends.
Most of them come for theentire week.
Some come for just the finalfour days and they have a hotel
room on campus and they have alltheir meals together and they
go to the concerts and themasterclasses and they drink in
the bar at night and listen topeople reading chamber music
informally.
We sold out those residentialpackages in one day.
There are 120 people on thewait list.
Now I'm not patting myself onthe shoulder.
(12:04):
You know, if you can't sellthat incredible experience of
the competition in the mostbeautiful place in the world, on
this magical campus, then youknow you're in the wrong
business.
So I'm very lucky to have theopportunity to create in Banff.
We have 10 remarkable quartetsthat are coming.
We have a fantastic jury.
We have a prize package that isunmatched in the industry in
(12:25):
terms of chamber music.
So if you win this competition,you get three years of
professional management, workingwith John Zion and his team at
Mel i Kaplan in the States andwith our office in Banff and
with Andrea Hompel in Europe.
So you've got multiple concerttours recording a residency, a
visiting resident at SouthernMethodist University.
It's so joyous to be able toshare that with whoever wins.
(12:46):
The first prize pack is valuedat close to half a million
dollars now in terms of the cashand the benefits of the
concerts and all the rest.
And what I think maybe is reallytouching is we don't eliminate
anybody from the competitionuntil the night before the final
round.
So every quartet that comesperforms multiple times before
the sold-out audience.
And then three groups areinvited Saturday night to come
(13:07):
back on Sunday and play thefinals.
That means seven groups don'tmake the finals and those seven
groups all receive a careerdevelopment grant from the
Anderson Family Foundation andit's a cash award of $5,000 to
each group.
So that idea of everybody's awinner we back that with these
awards and we cover the traveland the hotel of all the
quartets.
So I feel that every quartetthat comes to Banff, regardless
(13:30):
of whether you've made thefinals or win a prize, gets
something really significant outof it.
And what's really fun issometimes the audience says you
know, barry, you got it wrong.
You know Lizzie's quartet wasthe one that was the best.
How did they not make the final?
I'm like that's fantastic,don't tell me.
Go tell Lizzie, go tell her howmuch you loved her quartet and
then go back home and tell yourchamber music presenting
organization and wherever you'refrom to hire that quartet.
And that happens.
(13:50):
So the audience takes ownershipover their own choices, which
is really fun to see.
Elizabeth Bowman (13:55):
Well, it's all live streamed as well, and I
watch it every year on streamand engage like this.
I get really into it.
You know there's also well, itused to be on Twitter, but you
know now Twitter's not a placeto be.
But yeah, I used to say likewhen the jury was, you know,
(14:15):
debating, I'd be like, oh, it'sdefinitely.
This is first, this is second,this is third.
You know, and as a publicist, Iwould say, use all of that
information, everyone that'stagging you and saying like, you
know, we're rooting for you inthis way or that way and connect
with those people.
Experience for them becauseit's a major global stage using
(14:40):
digital assets.
And then it's like they shouldhave someone because they got to
focus on the competition, butthey should have someone hired.
You know, it's not that muchmoney to have the quartet.
Barry Shiffman (14:51):
you mean the individual quartet.
Yeah, it's really interesting.
We definitely see a huge rangeof experience in handling social
media.
Some of them have no experienceat all and occasionally a group
is really savvy.
But you're right, they're sofocused on the preparation for
the competition that they're notable to really take advantage
of telling the story.
And that's an interesting ideathat they could come to the
(15:12):
competition with their ownpublicist helping promote them.
I think we'll see that.
You know, sometimes we see thatif a quartet comes from a
school is associated with, youknow, the Royal Academy or
Colburn or Curtis or the GlennGould, then you have the
benefits sometimes of thoseassets.
But it's different storytellingthan if the publicist is
focused on the actual quartet.
Elizabeth Bowman (15:31):
Well, the clients I work for you know it's
.
You know they need to focus ontheir performance.
Very distracting otherwise,their performance it's very
distracting otherwise.
And if you have this bigopportunity where you're getting
live streamed continuously, youshould take advantage of that
with all.
Put everything towards it, Iwould say, Because, it's like
(15:52):
you say, it's not necessarilyabout the winner and the winner
is going to get this amazingpackage Great, but it's about
engaging with audiences.
You've got to invest and ifthat's what you want to do for
your career, this is a goldmedal moment for you.
Barry Shiffman (16:06):
So, yeah, no, I think you're right.
It's really good advice.
You know one of the things youspeak about digital assets.
So we do live stream the wholecompetition and we share that on
our channel Of course, we onthe violin channel as well,
because they have so manyeyeballs, and then we also, you
know, the capture of thoseconcerts is live, so you can
only get cameras so close.
I think we do a really good job.
But we also work with BrittleFilms from Toronto.
(16:27):
We bring them out and theyshoot what we call the Rolston
Sessions, and so they basicallymake an incredibly beautiful
video performance five or sixminutes of a movement, of a
particular work, where thecameras can get really up close,
and each quartet, each of the10 quartets leaves with this
video asset, which costsincredible money to produce, and
most of the quartets that I'veseen, the professional quartets
don't have such beautiful assetsof their own.
Elizabeth Bowman (16:49):
Impossible to afford, yeah.
Barry Shiffman (16:51):
So again, we're trying to make sure that
everybody that comes to Banffleaves with something tangible.
Elizabeth Bowman (16:56):
Yeah, they can't leave with the mountains.
Barry Shiffman (16:59):
Exactly.
I know I so wish we could.
For me it's really beautiful togo back because I, you know, I
went to Banff as a really youngkid the first time I think I was
11, going to Gifted Youth, andI went back again and again and
studied there and the StLawrence Quartet formed there
and then I had the amazingopportunity to live there and
run the programs and my seconddaughter was born there.
And so when I go to Banff,second daughter was born there.
(17:20):
And so when I go to Banff, it's, it's, you know, it's pretty
emotional to like drive fromCalgary and you see those
mountains, and it's a flood ofincredible, really positive
memories.
Elizabeth Bowman (17:26):
It's the best place on the planet.
Barry Shiffman (17:28):
It is the best place.
Elizabeth Bowman (17:29):
Yeah, I love Banff so much, and I've said it
multiple times on this podcasttoo.
I've been there a couplesummers.
Barry Shiffman (17:36):
You were there with the opera right With Joel's
thing, yeah with his program.
Elizabeth Bowman (17:41):
And it's just there was no wasting time with
anything.
I was up you know five o'clockin the morning running and just
getting right into it, going oncrazy hikes all the time and
then obviously teaching soobviously I love it.
Barry Shiffman (18:02):
I love it when people get to banff and do that
and take, you know, truly fulladvantage of the place because,
yeah, and it's, it's magicalevery every hour, right, you
wake up early.
Elizabeth Bowman (18:06):
It's magical at night although I did go to
bed like a grandma there becauseit you know I would be up so
early and I'd just teach allduring the day I was I was
definitely not one of the peopledrinking at the bar right.
Barry Shiffman (18:18):
Well, it's funny , you know I I don't too much
about this, but you know themountain that used to be
referred to as Tunnel Mountainbut is now referred to as
Sleeping Buffalo yes, which isthe name that the Indigenous
gave the mountain.
And I understand that theIndigenous would come to
Sleeping Buffalo Mountain tosleep, because dreams and sleep
were an elevated experience inBanff, at Sleeping Buffalo
(18:41):
Mountain, and a number ofartists that have come talking
about the wild dreams they'vehad.
Now, you know, I don't know whythat is, but for many, many,
many years people have beencoming to Banff specifically to
sleep.
So good on you.
Elizabeth Bowman (18:51):
Taking advantage of sleeping.
And I was also last summer,when I was there, I was in a
career transition.
You know, I had stopped workingat Opera Canada, I had just
finished working there and Iwasn't really sure about my next
step.
So I would say, you know, theanswer is in the mountains, and
I would just try to figure outwhat I was going to do next.
Barry Shiffman (19:12):
And here I am, there you go, good work.
Elizabeth Bowman (19:15):
Yeah, so let's circle back to the beginning of
your musical life.
I just am curious about how youknow you performed with the St
Lawrence Quartet, like you said,for many years, and then what
made you transition away fromthat?
Barry Shiffman (19:32):
So I was really lucky.
I had a beautiful experiencewith the St Lawrence Quartet and
I was in it for 17 and a halfyears and it was a great ride.
You know, within the quarteteverybody finds their own area
of specialization.
I guess you'd say right,somebody's organizing touring
and somebody's doing the concertprogram choices.
And Jeff was brilliant atengaging from the stage and my
(19:54):
role off of the music making wasreally around project creation
and dealing with management.
And so I started to put some ofthese projects together with
the quartet or for the quartet,things like a touring project
with Palabolas Dance Company orcommissioning different music,
or working with the museum, theCantor Museum at Stanford,
curating a program that lookedat music composed during the
(20:15):
Holocaust and curating that withphotos of Roman Vishniac, who
documented Jewish ghetto life.
Before the whole, and in theputting these projects together,
I realized how much fun I washaving doing that.
And the thing about being inthe quartet is you put a project
together, you might do it onceand then you're touring and
you're off doing it and I said,well wait, if I wasn't in the
quartet I could do lots of theseprojects or help people do
(20:37):
these projects, and I wasn't soenamored with 240 days a year on
the road anymore.
My wife, robin and I wereexpecting our first child and we
naively decided to leaveStanford.
Yeah, that was.
You know, robin had anincredible job at the time.
She was acting executivedirector of performing arts at
Stanford and in retrospect, as ayou know, as a more mature
person, I'm like what in theheck are we doing?
(20:58):
Who walks out of that?
But we moved to Banff andovernight our lives changed.
We had a house, we had a livingin the mountains, we had a baby
, I had a job, I was workingcrazy amount of hours because,
unlike the quartet, which iscontained, banff Center is not
contained and it took me acouple of years to realize you
can't ever get all the work donebecause that's just not
possible with that much going on.
(21:18):
But it was an amazing time andwe did, I think, really great
work in Banff.
It was a great team and Ireally loved it.
Yeah, I think in the end I madethe right decision, leaving the
quartet and the quartetflourished and we got to work
together One of the firstprojects I did in Stanford
(21:39):
University with the St LawrenceQuartet and listens to them play
Beethoven and goes home andwrites a string quartet for them
, I'm like, oh, that's killingme.
But we invited the quartet tocome to Banff and they recorded
on the non-such label John'sString Quartet.
We brought John Adams out toBanff and brought young
composers that worked with him,and so that was very gratifying.
I was able to spin myrelationship with the St
Lawrence Quartet and my work inBanff and bring those things all
(22:02):
together and build out so thatyoung composers also had access
to John, which was really,really special.
Elizabeth Bowman (22:08):
What do you think are two or three key
components to having asuccessful string quartet?
Barry Shiffman (22:14):
Oh yeah, wow, you know, probably the first
thing is just as it is in theactual music making.
The most important element ofmaking music in a string quartet
is the skill of listening.
Everything comes from that.
If you're really brilliant atlistening, you can react, you
can mold your sound to accompany, to converse.
It's all about listening.
But I would say that outside ofthe music making, the listening
(22:37):
is the big skill that needs tobe developed.
It's a very difficult thing tobe in a group of four people
that are striving for somethingthat's greater than any of the
individuals, and things getheated.
You're looking for the best,you're not always expressing
that in the best way possiblyand emotions get frayed, and so
developing that listening skilloutside of music making is key.
Elizabeth Bowman (22:59):
In terms of, I guess, the entrepreneurship
side of it, I would imagine thatit would be key to have someone
with organizational skills.
And also, when you talked aboutcommissioning and that kind of
thing, I guess it's important tohave your artistic stamp made
clear as well.
So, in that respect, what wouldyou say?
Barry Shiffman (23:20):
So again goes back to the thing, doesn't it?
In a certain way?
I remember I won't say who thequartet was, but there was a
quartet that was meeting with meand they were talking about
different things they were doingand they put out doing a
program on Mozart and Beethovenissue and they were talking
about.
It was interesting.
They were kind of engaged asthey were telling me about it,
and then they started to talkabout all these things that they
were doing with livingcomposers and they became a
different group.
(23:41):
They were animated, they wereexcited, they were passionate.
My advice would be just listento yourselves, follow that road,
because that's the road that isspeaking to you and you need to
listen to yourself.
Look what Kronos did.
You know Kronos listened tothemselves.
They were a passionate bunch ofscrappy kids that wanted to
play Black Angels of Crumb andweren't going to take no for an
answer and wanted to work withcomposers and had no money and
(24:04):
ended up playing in bars, butwhere they were true to
themselves, they just keptlistening to that inner voice
and didn't sell out and theresult is they created a brand
around that.
So I think you're absolutelyright, lizzie.
It's about what's your artisticstamp and you can't manufacture
something that is not true, butyou can listen to that truth
and then develop that.
Elizabeth Bowman (24:25):
I guess they have a unique challenge in that
you have in a strong quartet,obviously you have four very
dynamic players, because youhave to have four dynamic
players in order to have theenergy needed to have a great
quartet.
But with dynamic players comedynamic egos, which is fine.
(24:45):
I mean that's part ofperformance, it's not
necessarily a bad word.
But yeah, this unified identity.
That's the challenge, I think,of the string quartet is to have
that resonant unified identitythat everyone believes in
equally, and that's where Iactually think that really
(25:07):
successful performances happen,how you generate that X factor.
It's like everyone is on thatsame mental plane and it's like
you've all just gotten rightinto the the pathway and it goes
right out like full saturatedcolor to that audience so it's
not always that that happens,but when it does happen it's a
(25:30):
magic zone, isn't it?
Barry Shiffman (25:31):
some people refer to it as flow state I've
heard it called but wheretechnique is no longer an issue.
It's not, you're not, it's just, things are just happening.
Athletes have described that aswell.
I wish the Toronto Maple Leafshad a bit of that last night,
but whatever I digress.
Elizabeth Bowman (25:45):
Not to go totally off topic, but I'm
listening to another podcastright now called the Telepathy
Tapes.
Have you heard of it?
Barry Shiffman (25:52):
No.
Elizabeth Bowman (25:52):
Oh, it's fantastic.
It talks about well, the wholeit.
No, oh it's fantastic, it talksabout, well, the whole.
Purpose of the podcast is totalk about nonverbal autistic
people who are actually capableof communicating far beyond what
we imagine.
They describe people who havebeen taught, you know, for 21
years, these are their primarycolors and these kinds of things
(26:14):
, and then they gave them adifferent way to communicate
through spelling, they call itwhere they're able to point at
letters and that kind of thing,and they learn that these people
are educated with world issuesand they're like, actually like
fully developed humans that wehaven't understood.
So it's pretty amazing, thepodcast.
But one thing that obviously isin this conversation is the
(26:38):
telepathy element to it, thefact that they are able to
communicate on a different plane.
Barry Shiffman (26:44):
We just haven't figured out how to measure that,
but it's happening.
Elizabeth Bowman (26:47):
It's happening .
Yeah, you know an octet orgenerally chamber music and this
idea of getting into that flowstate.
I immediately started Googlingmusicians and telepathy.
Barry Shiffman (27:02):
Oh, interesting Okay.
Elizabeth Bowman (27:04):
Because I thought that maybe these
musicians, when they'redeveloping this flow, state and
now my podcast is going to gointo the hippie zone.
But yeah, maybe it is an actualstate of connection?
Barry Shiffman (27:20):
No, it is Absolutely.
Elizabeth Bowman (27:22):
Yeah.
Barry Shiffman (27:23):
Once you've felt it, you know we're just very
early stages at being able tounderstand that or capture
what's really going on.
Elizabeth Bowman (27:30):
Anyway, go listen to the telepathy, yeah.
Barry Shiffman (27:32):
I'm going to write that down.
So what's it called Telepathy?
Elizabeth Bowman (27:34):
The telepathy tapes.
So back on topic and back tothe Banff competition, because
that's coming up.
Do you have workshops outsideof the asset building that we
just talked about?
Do you talk aboutentrepreneurship and career?
Barry Shiffman (27:50):
So we're just looking at that.
But yes, for the quartets thatwe'll work with, that are the
laureates, we will be working ona whole range of things grant
writing, program building,liaising with management, how to
work with the public, how to doan interview that can basically
break down what an interview isabout and to give the artists a
sense of agency or control inthe best way that they can feel.
(28:12):
They walked in and, throughdeveloping their skills, they
achieved what they wanted to ingetting a certain message
forward.
And also that makes the life ofthe interviewer so much easier,
because I think sometimes,especially with the young
quartets, they'll go to aninterview and I'll look
afterwards at the.
I'm like what are you?
You just spoke for an hour, youdidn't touch on anything of
real relevance and you went offin these crazy tangents that you
(28:34):
gave nothing for the writer toactually work with.
Yeah, those are skills that youneed to develop, for sure.
Elizabeth Bowman (28:40):
The biggest challenge, I think, in early
interview.
Well, young artists doinginterviews, I would say first
they talk too fast and two, theydon't write down a primary
point that they want to getacross before they start the
interview and then two secondarypoints if they have time.
A lot of times you only have 30seconds, so it's one point and
(29:04):
even if they ask you a questionthat even isn't related to that
point, they have to figure outhow to pivot from what the
question that was asked to thepoint that they're trying to
make.
So to practice pivoting, that'sa good thing.
Barry Shiffman (29:17):
And to practice I mean it's so interesting that
you said that because themusicians practice, they
practice their own part.
They spent years practicing thequartet and then there's no
practice, there's no realconsideration of any of the
ancillary activities.
They just kind of do it andsome are skillful at it and some
are really not.
Elizabeth Bowman (29:34):
I think it's also important for these
emerging artists to know thatthe interviewer is trying to ask
a broad enough question to openthe door for them to talk.
So it's not about waiting forthe next question to be asked.
It's like just run with it,take what they give you.
(29:55):
They're giving you the batonand that's your opportunity to
speak.
And if you have those threepoints and you have time to say
them, great, you got through itone thing that happens this year
in the competition that I thinkis really fun.
Barry Shiffman (30:06):
We we haven't even announced it or the details
of it yet, but the andersonfamily, who provide the the
generous career developmentgrants for the seven groups that
don't advance to the finals.
They spend a lot of their timein the Grenadines and St Vincent
in the Caribbean, and so we'vecreated an opportunity now for
one of the 10 quartets to go tothat beautiful part of the world
for 10 days, give threeconcerts and give a whole bunch
(30:27):
of performances in the communityfor children and for audiences
who haven't had interaction withstring quartet before.
And so we'll be looking tochoose a group from the 10 that
apply, based not just on howthey perform in the competition
that's no one element, but anyof the 10 quartets are good
enough to play concerts but onhow they write to us about their
interest in the project, whythey're interested in it, why
(30:48):
outreach is important to ourcommunity connections.
So I'm excited to see wherethat goes and excited to spend
10 days with them in theGrenadines.
Elizabeth Bowman (30:56):
Take me with you.
Barry Shiffman (30:57):
Right, I know this competition just gets
better and better.
Elizabeth Bowman (31:01):
That's amazing .
I know what an opportunity forthem.
I also love that you have theCanadian composition element to
the competition and you get tolisten to that piece over and
over again.
Barry Shiffman (31:12):
You know.
So, lizzie, you know you thinkabout the audience in Banff.
They're not a new musicaudience.
They're not a new musicaudience.
They're not like new musicaficionados that go check out
all that.
And so I always am a littleworried about this round where
you have a new piece of music,and this this year by the
wonderful Canadian composer,katia Ghosh, who's a professor
at New England Conservatory, andyou would think it'd be a tough
sell, because you know what areyou doing today.
Elizabeth Bowman (31:39):
Well, I'm going to quartets play the same
piece one after another and it'sthe most popular round we have.
Barry Shiffman (31:41):
It is so cool because it really does
demonstrate the artisticinterpretation and how, how it
can just like vastly changeyou're like what mind blown
again, and I think any, anyperson, whether you're an expert
quartet player or composer orjust a music lover or whatever
you hear those differences, yousee those differences.
I always think it's a littlebit like a kaleidoscope you turn
(32:03):
it and suddenly you seedifferent shapes.
Yeah, I'm really lookingforward to that and I think
Kati's written a wonderful piece.
Elizabeth Bowman (32:08):
Well, thank you so much for being here today
, and I'm so glad to connectwith you again.
Barry Shiffman (32:14):
Same Lizzie, Great to see you.
Hi, I'm Elizabeth Bowman and welcome to
the Scene Room.
Today I have Barry Shiffman inthe room.
It's tough to describe Barry'sprofessional history.
He's had so many roles acrossso many different avenues.
He is a violinist, a violist.
(00:20):
He has had a career performing,recording, teaching,
administrating.
Right now he is the executivedirector of the Banff
International String Quartetcompetition, the Royal
(00:46):
Conservatory of Music in Toronto, as both Associate Dean and
Director of Chamber Music at theGlenn Gould School and Dean of
the Philip and Ellie TaylorPerformance Academy for Young
Artists.
He is also Artistic Director ofthe Classical Music in Rockport
Chamber Music Festival.
He's also a sought-after juror.
He has served on the jury ofthe Tchaikovsky and Montreal
Violin competitions, as well asLondon's Wigmore Hall, geneva,
(01:09):
banff and Lyon String Quartetcompetitions.
In addition to his work atBanff Centre, rockport and the
Royal Conservatory, he hasserved as executive artistic
director of Vancouver's Music inthe Morning concert since 2009.
So Barry has his hands in a lotof this classical chamber music
(01:31):
business.
So what a delight to have himhere today.
If you're enjoying the podcast,please do like, share, review,
do any of those things.
It really helps keep theseconversations going.
Let's get to it, barry.
Welcome to the scene room.
Thanks so much for coming.
Barry Shiffman (01:47):
Great to be with you, Lizzie.
Elizabeth Bowman (01:48):
So great to have someone's perspective from
the chamber music and stringworld, because I've had a lot of
singers and also administratorsfor opera and that kind of
thing.
So it's really, really great toget your perspective on this
podcast.
Barry Shiffman (02:06):
Happy to be here .
Elizabeth Bowman (02:07):
So you've spent your life steeped in the
industry, as a performer, as aneducator, as a curator of
programs, artistic director andall the things.
How would you describe thecurrent state of the industry?
Barry Shiffman (02:23):
Oh yeah, well, that's a great question and
something a lot of people arecurious about.
So the industry is that's a bigword.
So I don't feel I can speak tothe entertainment industry or
the recording industry or themusic industry.
The classical music industry issomething I feel I know pretty
well and I think we've done apretty horrific job of
realistically describing thingsthat are happening.
(02:45):
We're very good at describingeverything that's wrong, so
you'll hear all sorts ofwonderful stories of declining
audiences, struggles even at theMetropolitan Opera, financial
struggles, orchestras that can'tget audiences all sorts of
challenges.
What we're not very good at isdescribing incredible growth in
(03:06):
the industry and opportunity andin the chamber music world.
That's what I'm seeing, and yetthat story isn't getting told.
It isn't even getting told atplaces like Chamber Music
America, which is, you know, anorganization that, by the nature
of their task, they do a lot offocusing on what are problems.
Let's focus on for a secondwhat's really good.
I have a lot of focusing onwhat are problems.
Let's focus on for a secondwhat's really good.
(03:26):
I have a career that youmentioned has a number of touch
points, so you know, educating.
I present a festival inRockport, massachusetts, for
Rockport music and I direct theInternational String Quartet
competition in Banff.
The exponential growth ofchamber music festivals in North
America is an enormous storythat isn't getting told.
If you look, just as an example, at Rockport Music in
(03:46):
Massachusetts, I used to go toRockport Music when the St
Lawrence Quartet was young, wehad just won Banff and we went
to this small little town,sleepy town in beautiful New
England and on Cape Ann We'dplay concerts for this little
series that had, I think at thattime, three or four weekends of
concerts, almost entirelyvolunteer run.
The board members would movethe chairs into the Art
Association building, they wouldmake little cookies and you'd
(04:07):
have them for dessert and it wasvery hands-on and endearing.
That wasn't that long ago andthat organization then
themselves raised money, pulledno debt and built the Shilinlu
Performance Center on theincredible water of Rockport.
And that little chamber musicfestival that was a few weekends
(04:28):
in the summer is a12-month-a-year multi-genre
presenting organization with anenormous chamber music festival
that I'm involved in classicalmusic during the year, a jazz
festival, a Celtic festival, aneducation department, a jazz
camp.
Recordings, podcasts, videos,and it's sensational.
But it's not the only examplelike that.
Look at La Jolla in California.
Look in Canada at Festival ofthe Sound in Parry Sound,
(04:51):
ontario.
Have you been to Parry Sound,ontario, lizzie?
Elizabeth Bowman (04:53):
I have.
Yeah, I've never been to thefestival, but I've heard it it's
lovely.
Barry Shiffman (04:58):
Parry Sound's lovely, you know, you can go
fishing and you can go swimmingand you can eat like lots of
fried food and it's, it's agreat place.
It's not where you'd expect ahotbed of classical chamber
music, but there you have it.
There was an incredible desirefor this.
In the summers, concerts usedto happen in the school
gymnasium and such was theexcitement that they got
together and they built thestocky center for music and they
(05:21):
have an incredible summerfestival and go through prince
edward county you could just.
When I was in the quartet, bythe time I left, we were busy
from Memorial Day weekend weplayed almost every single day
until Labor Day, differentfestivals popping up, new, one,
new, one, new one, new, one, newone.
So that, to me, is amazing andthat's a story we don't talk
about.
And for me, because I'minvolved in identifying the next
(05:42):
quartets that have a potentialfor a career through their work
at the band competition, I feelmorally okay that we're doing
this, that we're actuallyidentifying groups, because I
know that there is opportunityfor them.
Elizabeth Bowman (05:54):
I feel like chamber music in general has all
of the ingredients of whatfuture and current audiences
want, of what future and currentaudiences want.
So the idea of connecting on anintimate level with the
performers and the performances.
Chamber music has all of thatbecause, just inherently, you
(06:18):
have a small ensemble andoftentimes you'll have
performers talking to theaudience about what they're
doing and the programming isoften well curated and there's a
thematic thread to it, sopeople know what to expect.
The conversation afterwards isaccessible and relatable because
(06:43):
they make it so.
So I understand this growth andwhy it's happening and think
that you know, if peoplelistening to this podcast have
not been to a chamber festival,that they should definitely go
and experience it.
Barry Shiffman (06:58):
Yeah, I think you've touched on a number of
things that are some of thesecret ingredients, and one of
those is exactly that thatyou're close to the action and
so already you have a leg upover events in large halls,
where even a great performanceof opera or a great symphonic
experience you're still removedphysically.
So there's something veryexciting about being very close.
(07:19):
That's wonderful, and I thinkyou're right as well that there
is a growing, there's a desirefrom artists to reach out to the
audience and connect beyond themusic on the stage.
So you're seeing lots ofartists, like you mentioned,
speak from the stage, shareanecdotes, take questions and
answers, and I wondered whythere's so much interest in this
.
And I've come to understandthat in life today, for many
(07:40):
people we've lost community as acore value and when you go to
the concert hall you have thiscommunity experience and that's
as important as the music that'scoming off the stage.
You know, I teach at the GlennGould School, as you know, and
Glenn Gould was an amazingmusician, an amazing genius and
such a celebrated Canadian, andI think he got it wrong like
completely.
(08:01):
He played great, but you knowhe was convinced that the better
experience was making music inthe recording studio.
I don't understand how hemissed all the good that happens
in the concert hall.
I wish I could meet him now andinvite him to one of the
festivals and show him how greatthat is.
You know, it's funny becausewhen he made many of his
television shows for CBC theywere often almost like a living
room setting.
(08:21):
So he desired that sort ofinformality and community but
yet couldn't find that in theconcert stage.
And I think today we have lotsof opportunity for that in the
festivals.
Elizabeth Bowman (08:31):
Yeah, I grew up in Ottawa and Ottawa is known
for its chamber music.
Obviously they have the OttawaChamber Festival and also now
Music and Beyond.
And I remember as a teenagerwhen Chamber Fest would start,
people would line up with theirlawn chairs.
Like that's how the lineups toget into the hall.
(08:52):
They would bring lawn chairsbecause you know they wanted
great seats.
It was general seating and sothey would go hours before they
even opened the doors and thatkind of vibe.
It was an impressionableexperience for me because I was
luckily aware of all these greatchamber works at a very young
(09:14):
age and, yeah, I think I wouldsay it was life changing for
someone.
Barry Shiffman (09:20):
Yeah, and for you and I would say for me as
well, and for so many musiciansthat were invited to Ottawa.
I had heard about the festivalbut we hadn't been invited.
And finally we were invited togo to this festival in Ottawa.
And we head out to Ottawa andwe walked from our hotel to I
think it was Dominion ChalmersChurch or wherever it was that
we were playing, and we saw thatscene you just described.
There were hundreds of peoplelined up and it was such an ego
(09:41):
boost.
We thought, wow, this isawesome.
They must have heard that we'rereally good.
And it was just.
I'd never seen people line upfor a concert.
So we're just, we're so excited.
And then jeff in the quartet,he's like, hey, look down the
street, there's another churchand there's a concert there and
there's another lineup, likewhat is going on here.
There was such an appetite formusic and for community and I
think the lining up, thebringing the lawn chair, the
(10:01):
suffering through the heat ofthe church, all of that
experience was as important asthen taking in the amazing music
that was being curated andpeople came and studied Ottawa
as an example of success,because it was such an anomaly
just in terms of the numbers.
At one point I read that theyattracted more people to the
Chamber Music Festival than tothe National Arts Center's
summer programs.
Elizabeth Bowman (10:22):
Yeah, I can see that.
But part of that is the geniusof the curation and we can all
learn from that.
All the institutions certainlycan still learn from that
audience connection andexperience.
And, like you say, it's allpart of that experience the
community connection, thesitting down on those lawn
chairs and there would be hotdog stands nearby and things
(10:44):
like that, like you'reincorporating the whole
community, and that's what weneed to do as an industry in the
classical arts and in any ofthe art.
Barry Shiffman (10:52):
Yeah, yeah, so agree.
Elizabeth Bowman (10:53):
So tell me what's going on.
It's a competition year atBanff.
Barry Shiffman (10:58):
Yeah, it's a competition year.
This is a really particularlyfun time in my year.
So we've just finished theGlenn Gould School season and
the Taylor Academy, which is thepre-college prep program that I
run, and now I focus myattention on two things.
One, the Rockport Chamber MusicFestival starts in the middle
of June.
We open with Angela Hewitt andwe have an incredible number of
concerts and they're sellinggreat and we're excited about
that.
We have Josh Bell and StephenIsserlis and Jeremy Denk coming
(11:21):
for a weekend, so very excitingstuff.
And we have previous winners ofthe Banff competition the Dover
Quartet, isidore Quartet, bothon our series and, as you
mentioned, it is a BanffInternational String Quartet
competition year.
Every three years we run thecompetition.
You know I mentioned before theimportance of community.
Our audience is legendary.
We have a pretty much 100%return rate.
(11:43):
Those that have come want tocome again and the audience
comes and spends.
Most of them come for theentire week.
Some come for just the finalfour days and they have a hotel
room on campus and they have alltheir meals together and they
go to the concerts and themasterclasses and they drink in
the bar at night and listen topeople reading chamber music
informally.
We sold out those residentialpackages in one day.
There are 120 people on thewait list.
Now I'm not patting myself onthe shoulder.
(12:04):
You know, if you can't sellthat incredible experience of
the competition in the mostbeautiful place in the world, on
this magical campus, then youknow you're in the wrong
business.
So I'm very lucky to have theopportunity to create in Banff.
We have 10 remarkable quartetsthat are coming.
We have a fantastic jury.
We have a prize package that isunmatched in the industry in
(12:25):
terms of chamber music.
So if you win this competition,you get three years of
professional management, workingwith John Zion and his team at
Mel i Kaplan in the States andwith our office in Banff and
with Andrea Hompel in Europe.
So you've got multiple concerttours recording a residency, a
visiting resident at SouthernMethodist University.
It's so joyous to be able toshare that with whoever wins.
(12:46):
The first prize pack is valuedat close to half a million
dollars now in terms of the cashand the benefits of the
concerts and all the rest.
And what I think maybe is reallytouching is we don't eliminate
anybody from the competitionuntil the night before the final
round.
So every quartet that comesperforms multiple times before
the sold-out audience.
And then three groups areinvited Saturday night to come
(13:07):
back on Sunday and play thefinals.
That means seven groups don'tmake the finals and those seven
groups all receive a careerdevelopment grant from the
Anderson Family Foundation andit's a cash award of $5,000 to
each group.
So that idea of everybody's awinner we back that with these
awards and we cover the traveland the hotel of all the
quartets.
So I feel that every quartetthat comes to Banff, regardless
(13:30):
of whether you've made thefinals or win a prize, gets
something really significant outof it.
And what's really fun issometimes the audience says you
know, barry, you got it wrong.
You know Lizzie's quartet wasthe one that was the best.
How did they not make the final?
I'm like that's fantastic,don't tell me.
Go tell Lizzie, go tell her howmuch you loved her quartet and
then go back home and tell yourchamber music presenting
organization and wherever you'refrom to hire that quartet.
And that happens.
(13:50):
So the audience takes ownershipover their own choices, which
is really fun to see.
Elizabeth Bowman (13:55):
Well, it's all live streamed as well, and I
watch it every year on streamand engage like this.
I get really into it.
You know there's also well, itused to be on Twitter, but you
know now Twitter's not a placeto be.
But yeah, I used to say likewhen the jury was, you know,
(14:15):
debating, I'd be like, oh, it'sdefinitely.
This is first, this is second,this is third.
You know, and as a publicist, Iwould say, use all of that
information, everyone that'stagging you and saying like, you
know, we're rooting for you inthis way or that way and connect
with those people.
Experience for them becauseit's a major global stage using
(14:40):
digital assets.
And then it's like they shouldhave someone because they got to
focus on the competition, butthey should have someone hired.
You know, it's not that muchmoney to have the quartet.
Barry Shiffman (14:51):
you mean the individual quartet.
Yeah, it's really interesting.
We definitely see a huge rangeof experience in handling social
media.
Some of them have no experienceat all and occasionally a group
is really savvy.
But you're right, they're sofocused on the preparation for
the competition that they're notable to really take advantage
of telling the story.
And that's an interesting ideathat they could come to the
(15:12):
competition with their ownpublicist helping promote them.
I think we'll see that.
You know, sometimes we see thatif a quartet comes from a
school is associated with, youknow, the Royal Academy or
Colburn or Curtis or the GlennGould, then you have the
benefits sometimes of thoseassets.
But it's different storytellingthan if the publicist is
focused on the actual quartet.
Elizabeth Bowman (15:31):
Well, the clients I work for you know it's
.
You know they need to focus ontheir performance.
Very distracting otherwise,their performance it's very
distracting otherwise.
And if you have this bigopportunity where you're getting
live streamed continuously, youshould take advantage of that
with all.
Put everything towards it, Iwould say, Because, it's like
(15:52):
you say, it's not necessarilyabout the winner and the winner
is going to get this amazingpackage Great, but it's about
engaging with audiences.
You've got to invest and ifthat's what you want to do for
your career, this is a goldmedal moment for you.
Barry Shiffman (16:06):
So, yeah, no, I think you're right.
It's really good advice.
You know one of the things youspeak about digital assets.
So we do live stream the wholecompetition and we share that on
our channel Of course, we onthe violin channel as well,
because they have so manyeyeballs, and then we also, you
know, the capture of thoseconcerts is live, so you can
only get cameras so close.
I think we do a really good job.
But we also work with BrittleFilms from Toronto.
(16:27):
We bring them out and theyshoot what we call the Rolston
Sessions, and so they basicallymake an incredibly beautiful
video performance five or sixminutes of a movement, of a
particular work, where thecameras can get really up close,
and each quartet, each of the10 quartets leaves with this
video asset, which costsincredible money to produce, and
most of the quartets that I'veseen, the professional quartets
don't have such beautiful assetsof their own.
Elizabeth Bowman (16:49):
Impossible to afford, yeah.
Barry Shiffman (16:51):
So again, we're trying to make sure that
everybody that comes to Banffleaves with something tangible.
Elizabeth Bowman (16:56):
Yeah, they can't leave with the mountains.
Barry Shiffman (16:59):
Exactly.
I know I so wish we could.
For me it's really beautiful togo back because I, you know, I
went to Banff as a really youngkid the first time I think I was
11, going to Gifted Youth, andI went back again and again and
studied there and the StLawrence Quartet formed there
and then I had the amazingopportunity to live there and
run the programs and my seconddaughter was born there.
And so when I go to Banff,second daughter was born there.
(17:20):
And so when I go to Banff, it's, it's, you know, it's pretty
emotional to like drive fromCalgary and you see those
mountains, and it's a flood ofincredible, really positive
memories.
Elizabeth Bowman (17:26):
It's the best place on the planet.
Barry Shiffman (17:28):
It is the best place.
Elizabeth Bowman (17:29):
Yeah, I love Banff so much, and I've said it
multiple times on this podcasttoo.
I've been there a couplesummers.
Barry Shiffman (17:36):
You were there with the opera right With Joel's
thing, yeah with his program.
Elizabeth Bowman (17:41):
And it's just there was no wasting time with
anything.
I was up you know five o'clockin the morning running and just
getting right into it, going oncrazy hikes all the time and
then obviously teaching soobviously I love it.
Barry Shiffman (18:02):
I love it when people get to banff and do that
and take, you know, truly fulladvantage of the place because,
yeah, and it's, it's magicalevery every hour, right, you
wake up early.
Elizabeth Bowman (18:06):
It's magical at night although I did go to
bed like a grandma there becauseit you know I would be up so
early and I'd just teach allduring the day I was I was
definitely not one of the peopledrinking at the bar right.
Barry Shiffman (18:18):
Well, it's funny , you know I I don't too much
about this, but you know themountain that used to be
referred to as Tunnel Mountainbut is now referred to as
Sleeping Buffalo yes, which isthe name that the Indigenous
gave the mountain.
And I understand that theIndigenous would come to
Sleeping Buffalo Mountain tosleep, because dreams and sleep
were an elevated experience inBanff, at Sleeping Buffalo
(18:41):
Mountain, and a number ofartists that have come talking
about the wild dreams they'vehad.
Now, you know, I don't know whythat is, but for many, many,
many years people have beencoming to Banff specifically to
sleep.
So good on you.
Elizabeth Bowman (18:51):
Taking advantage of sleeping.
And I was also last summer,when I was there, I was in a
career transition.
You know, I had stopped workingat Opera Canada, I had just
finished working there and Iwasn't really sure about my next
step.
So I would say, you know, theanswer is in the mountains, and
I would just try to figure outwhat I was going to do next.
Barry Shiffman (19:12):
And here I am, there you go, good work.
Elizabeth Bowman (19:15):
Yeah, so let's circle back to the beginning of
your musical life.
I just am curious about how youknow you performed with the St
Lawrence Quartet, like you said,for many years, and then what
made you transition away fromthat?
Barry Shiffman (19:32):
So I was really lucky.
I had a beautiful experiencewith the St Lawrence Quartet and
I was in it for 17 and a halfyears and it was a great ride.
You know, within the quarteteverybody finds their own area
of specialization.
I guess you'd say right,somebody's organizing touring
and somebody's doing the concertprogram choices.
And Jeff was brilliant atengaging from the stage and my
(19:54):
role off of the music making wasreally around project creation
and dealing with management.
And so I started to put some ofthese projects together with
the quartet or for the quartet,things like a touring project
with Palabolas Dance Company orcommissioning different music,
or working with the museum, theCantor Museum at Stanford,
curating a program that lookedat music composed during the
(20:15):
Holocaust and curating that withphotos of Roman Vishniac, who
documented Jewish ghetto life.
Before the whole, and in theputting these projects together,
I realized how much fun I washaving doing that.
And the thing about being inthe quartet is you put a project
together, you might do it onceand then you're touring and
you're off doing it and I said,well wait, if I wasn't in the
quartet I could do lots of theseprojects or help people do
(20:37):
these projects, and I wasn't soenamored with 240 days a year on
the road anymore.
My wife, robin and I wereexpecting our first child and we
naively decided to leaveStanford.
Yeah, that was.
You know, robin had anincredible job at the time.
She was acting executivedirector of performing arts at
Stanford and in retrospect, as ayou know, as a more mature
person, I'm like what in theheck are we doing?
(20:58):
Who walks out of that?
But we moved to Banff andovernight our lives changed.
We had a house, we had a livingin the mountains, we had a baby
, I had a job, I was workingcrazy amount of hours because,
unlike the quartet, which iscontained, banff Center is not
contained and it took me acouple of years to realize you
can't ever get all the work donebecause that's just not
possible with that much going on.
(21:18):
But it was an amazing time andwe did, I think, really great
work in Banff.
It was a great team and Ireally loved it.
Yeah, I think in the end I madethe right decision, leaving the
quartet and the quartetflourished and we got to work
together One of the firstprojects I did in Stanford
(21:39):
University with the St LawrenceQuartet and listens to them play
Beethoven and goes home andwrites a string quartet for them
, I'm like, oh, that's killingme.
But we invited the quartet tocome to Banff and they recorded
on the non-such label John'sString Quartet.
We brought John Adams out toBanff and brought young
composers that worked with him,and so that was very gratifying.
I was able to spin myrelationship with the St
Lawrence Quartet and my work inBanff and bring those things all
(22:02):
together and build out so thatyoung composers also had access
to John, which was really,really special.
Elizabeth Bowman (22:08):
What do you think are two or three key
components to having asuccessful string quartet?
Barry Shiffman (22:14):
Oh yeah, wow, you know, probably the first
thing is just as it is in theactual music making.
The most important element ofmaking music in a string quartet
is the skill of listening.
Everything comes from that.
If you're really brilliant atlistening, you can react, you
can mold your sound to accompany, to converse.
It's all about listening.
But I would say that outside ofthe music making, the listening
(22:37):
is the big skill that needs tobe developed.
It's a very difficult thing tobe in a group of four people
that are striving for somethingthat's greater than any of the
individuals, and things getheated.
You're looking for the best,you're not always expressing
that in the best way possiblyand emotions get frayed, and so
developing that listening skilloutside of music making is key.
Elizabeth Bowman (22:59):
In terms of, I guess, the entrepreneurship
side of it, I would imagine thatit would be key to have someone
with organizational skills.
And also, when you talked aboutcommissioning and that kind of
thing, I guess it's important tohave your artistic stamp made
clear as well.
So, in that respect, what wouldyou say?
Barry Shiffman (23:20):
So again goes back to the thing, doesn't it?
In a certain way?
I remember I won't say who thequartet was, but there was a
quartet that was meeting with meand they were talking about
different things they were doingand they put out doing a
program on Mozart and Beethovenissue and they were talking
about.
It was interesting.
They were kind of engaged asthey were telling me about it,
and then they started to talkabout all these things that they
were doing with livingcomposers and they became a
different group.
(23:41):
They were animated, they wereexcited, they were passionate.
My advice would be just listento yourselves, follow that road,
because that's the road that isspeaking to you and you need to
listen to yourself.
Look what Kronos did.
You know Kronos listened tothemselves.
They were a passionate bunch ofscrappy kids that wanted to
play Black Angels of Crumb andweren't going to take no for an
answer and wanted to work withcomposers and had no money and
(24:04):
ended up playing in bars, butwhere they were true to
themselves, they just keptlistening to that inner voice
and didn't sell out and theresult is they created a brand
around that.
So I think you're absolutelyright, lizzie.
It's about what's your artisticstamp and you can't manufacture
something that is not true, butyou can listen to that truth
and then develop that.
Elizabeth Bowman (24:25):
I guess they have a unique challenge in that
you have in a strong quartet,obviously you have four very
dynamic players, because youhave to have four dynamic
players in order to have theenergy needed to have a great
quartet.
But with dynamic players comedynamic egos, which is fine.
(24:45):
I mean that's part ofperformance, it's not
necessarily a bad word.
But yeah, this unified identity.
That's the challenge, I think,of the string quartet is to have
that resonant unified identitythat everyone believes in
equally, and that's where Iactually think that really
(25:07):
successful performances happen,how you generate that X factor.
It's like everyone is on thatsame mental plane and it's like
you've all just gotten rightinto the the pathway and it goes
right out like full saturatedcolor to that audience so it's
not always that that happens,but when it does happen it's a
(25:30):
magic zone, isn't it?
Barry Shiffman (25:31):
some people refer to it as flow state I've
heard it called but wheretechnique is no longer an issue.
It's not, you're not, it's just, things are just happening.
Athletes have described that aswell.
I wish the Toronto Maple Leafshad a bit of that last night,
but whatever I digress.
Elizabeth Bowman (25:45):
Not to go totally off topic, but I'm
listening to another podcastright now called the Telepathy
Tapes.
Have you heard of it?
Barry Shiffman (25:52):
No.
Elizabeth Bowman (25:52):
Oh, it's fantastic.
It talks about well, the wholeit.
No, oh it's fantastic, it talksabout, well, the whole.
Purpose of the podcast is totalk about nonverbal autistic
people who are actually capableof communicating far beyond what
we imagine.
They describe people who havebeen taught, you know, for 21
years, these are their primarycolors and these kinds of things
(26:14):
, and then they gave them adifferent way to communicate
through spelling, they call itwhere they're able to point at
letters and that kind of thing,and they learn that these people
are educated with world issuesand they're like, actually like
fully developed humans that wehaven't understood.
So it's pretty amazing, thepodcast.
But one thing that obviously isin this conversation is the
(26:38):
telepathy element to it, thefact that they are able to
communicate on a different plane.
Barry Shiffman (26:44):
We just haven't figured out how to measure that,
but it's happening.
Elizabeth Bowman (26:47):
It's happening .
Yeah, you know an octet orgenerally chamber music and this
idea of getting into that flowstate.
I immediately started Googlingmusicians and telepathy.
Barry Shiffman (27:02):
Oh, interesting Okay.
Elizabeth Bowman (27:04):
Because I thought that maybe these
musicians, when they'redeveloping this flow, state and
now my podcast is going to gointo the hippie zone.
But yeah, maybe it is an actualstate of connection?
Barry Shiffman (27:20):
No, it is Absolutely.
Elizabeth Bowman (27:22):
Yeah.
Barry Shiffman (27:23):
Once you've felt it, you know we're just very
early stages at being able tounderstand that or capture
what's really going on.
Elizabeth Bowman (27:30):
Anyway, go listen to the telepathy, yeah.
Barry Shiffman (27:32):
I'm going to write that down.
So what's it called Telepathy?
Elizabeth Bowman (27:34):
The telepathy tapes.
So back on topic and back tothe Banff competition, because
that's coming up.
Do you have workshops outsideof the asset building that we
just talked about?
Do you talk aboutentrepreneurship and career?
Barry Shiffman (27:50):
So we're just looking at that.
But yes, for the quartets thatwe'll work with, that are the
laureates, we will be working ona whole range of things grant
writing, program building,liaising with management, how to
work with the public, how to doan interview that can basically
break down what an interview isabout and to give the artists a
sense of agency or control inthe best way that they can feel.
(28:12):
They walked in and, throughdeveloping their skills, they
achieved what they wanted to ingetting a certain message
forward.
And also that makes the life ofthe interviewer so much easier,
because I think sometimes,especially with the young
quartets, they'll go to aninterview and I'll look
afterwards at the.
I'm like what are you?
You just spoke for an hour, youdidn't touch on anything of
real relevance and you went offin these crazy tangents that you
(28:34):
gave nothing for the writer toactually work with.
Yeah, those are skills that youneed to develop, for sure.
Elizabeth Bowman (28:40):
The biggest challenge, I think, in early
interview.
Well, young artists doinginterviews, I would say first
they talk too fast and two, theydon't write down a primary
point that they want to getacross before they start the
interview and then two secondarypoints if they have time.
A lot of times you only have 30seconds, so it's one point and
(29:04):
even if they ask you a questionthat even isn't related to that
point, they have to figure outhow to pivot from what the
question that was asked to thepoint that they're trying to
make.
So to practice pivoting, that'sa good thing.
Barry Shiffman (29:17):
And to practice I mean it's so interesting that
you said that because themusicians practice, they
practice their own part.
They spent years practicing thequartet and then there's no
practice, there's no realconsideration of any of the
ancillary activities.
They just kind of do it andsome are skillful at it and some
are really not.
Elizabeth Bowman (29:34):
I think it's also important for these
emerging artists to know thatthe interviewer is trying to ask
a broad enough question to openthe door for them to talk.
So it's not about waiting forthe next question to be asked.
It's like just run with it,take what they give you.
(29:55):
They're giving you the batonand that's your opportunity to
speak.
And if you have those threepoints and you have time to say
them, great, you got through itone thing that happens this year
in the competition that I thinkis really fun.
Barry Shiffman (30:06):
We we haven't even announced it or the details
of it yet, but the andersonfamily, who provide the the
generous career developmentgrants for the seven groups that
don't advance to the finals.
They spend a lot of their timein the Grenadines and St Vincent
in the Caribbean, and so we'vecreated an opportunity now for
one of the 10 quartets to go tothat beautiful part of the world
for 10 days, give threeconcerts and give a whole bunch
(30:27):
of performances in the communityfor children and for audiences
who haven't had interaction withstring quartet before.
And so we'll be looking tochoose a group from the 10 that
apply, based not just on howthey perform in the competition
that's no one element, but anyof the 10 quartets are good
enough to play concerts but onhow they write to us about their
interest in the project, whythey're interested in it, why
(30:48):
outreach is important to ourcommunity connections.
So I'm excited to see wherethat goes and excited to spend
10 days with them in theGrenadines.
Elizabeth Bowman (30:56):
Take me with you.
Barry Shiffman (30:57):
Right, I know this competition just gets
better and better.
Elizabeth Bowman (31:01):
That's amazing .
I know what an opportunity forthem.
I also love that you have theCanadian composition element to
the competition and you get tolisten to that piece over and
over again.
Barry Shiffman (31:12):
You know.
So, lizzie, you know you thinkabout the audience in Banff.
They're not a new musicaudience.
They're not a new musicaudience.
They're not like new musicaficionados that go check out
all that.
And so I always am a littleworried about this round where
you have a new piece of music,and this this year by the
wonderful Canadian composer,katia Ghosh, who's a professor
at New England Conservatory, andyou would think it'd be a tough
sell, because you know what areyou doing today.
Elizabeth Bowman (31:39):
Well, I'm going to quartets play the same
piece one after another and it'sthe most popular round we have.
Barry Shiffman (31:41):
It is so cool because it really does
demonstrate the artisticinterpretation and how, how it
can just like vastly changeyou're like what mind blown
again, and I think any, anyperson, whether you're an expert
quartet player or composer orjust a music lover or whatever
you hear those differences, yousee those differences.
I always think it's a littlebit like a kaleidoscope you turn
(32:03):
it and suddenly you seedifferent shapes.
Yeah, I'm really lookingforward to that and I think
Kati's written a wonderful piece.
Elizabeth Bowman (32:08):
Well, thank you so much for being here today
, and I'm so glad to connectwith you again.
Barry Shiffman (32:14):
Same Lizzie, Great to see you.
Popular Podcasts
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.