April 24, 2025 • 25 mins
The transformative potential of artificial intelligence in arts management takes center stage in this forward-thinking conversation with Ben Dietschi, Senior Consultant at the DeVos Institute of Arts and Nonprofit Management. Drawing from his extensive experience as the former Executive Director of SoundStreams and his current project developing AI training programs for arts administrators and organizations, Dietschi offers a compelling vision of how cultural organizations can adapt to an increasingly digital landscape.
The discussion opens with Dietschi's personal journey into arts administration, sparked by a profound moment during a high school band performance when he witnessed the emotional power of music to transform an audience. This formative experience shaped his career trajectory and his commitment to helping arts organizations maximize their impact through effective business structures.
At the heart of our conversation lies what Dietschi terms a potential "relevancy crisis" facing arts institutions. As digital entertainment options become increasingly sophisticated, accessible, and often free, cultural organizations must reconsider their value proposition. Dietschi challenges arts leaders to think boldly about creating experiences that will resonate with future generations while remaining authentic to their artistic missions.
The podcast explores several cutting-edge concepts including venture philanthropy, which creates a middle ground between traditional donations and profit-seeking investments. Most significantly, Dietschi shares insights from his current work leading an AI lab for arts organizations, where studies suggest potential productivity gains of around 40% across various administrative functions - a game-changing prospect for an industry that has historically struggled with efficiency constraints.
While acknowledging ethical concerns around AI, particularly regarding copyright and artistic integrity, Dietschi advocates for a pragmatic approach that integrates these powerful tools within organizations' missions rather than resisting technological change. His balanced perspective encourages thoughtful adoption while respecting organizational values and the creative community.
Whether you're an arts administrator, board member, or simply interested in the intersection of technology and culture, this episode offers valuable insights into how traditional institutions can embrace innovation while preserving their core artistic values. Subscribe to The Scene Room for more conversations that explore the evolving landscape of arts management and cultural leadership.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Elizabeth Bowman (00:00):
Hi, I'm Elizabeth Bowman and welcome to
the Scene Room.
Today I have Ben Dietschi here.
He is a senior consultant withthe DeVos Institute of Arts
Management, where he assistsarts and culture organizations
in reaching their full potential.
Prior to joining the Institute,ben served as executive
director of SoundStreams,canada's leading contemporary
(00:20):
music and opera producer.
I have followed Ben's careersince his SoundStream days and
he is really doing fascinatingthings.
We focused the conversationtoday on AI because he is
developing an AI trainingprogram for arts administrators.
If you're enjoying the SceneRoom podcast, please like it,
(00:42):
share it, review it, do any ofthose things.
It really helps keep theseconversations going.
Thanks for your support.
And now let's get to theconversation.
Ben, welcome to the scene room.
Ben Dietsche (00:53):
Good to be here.
Elizabeth Bowman (00:54):
I followed your career from your sound
stream days, so it's really niceto talk face to face on this
podcast.
Ben Dietsche (01:02):
Likewise, that's very kind.
You too Definitely seen youbouncing around everywhere and
making the arts better, sothanks for doing this, and I was
saying in our pre-chat thatit's just great that there's a
podcast about the arts.
It's missing, so it's great tobe here.
Elizabeth Bowman (01:15):
Tell me about your journey into arts
administration, because this isunique to everyone, obviously,
but upcoming emerging artsadministrators or people who are
thinking about jobs in the arts, who may be musicians or
dancers or artistic people ingeneral who are interested in
the business side.
How did you cross over or getinto it?
(01:36):
I assume you must have musiceducation.
Ben Dietsche (01:38):
Yeah, I think for a lot of us it starts with
getting sucked into the artsfirst and honestly, there's a
specific moment I remember thathappening.
I was in high school.
I was in band.
I play the saxophone I still doand we were in one of those
competitions.
You know where you go in toearn trophies and have sort of
Mr Holland's opus band director.
It was all very intense.
(01:59):
At a point in the piece we wereplaying I think it was a Percy
Grainger thing the audiencestarted to weep, like two thirds
of the room, for real, likethis.
This happened and it, just in amoment, made me understand how
powerful the arts are.
And that might sound overlypoetic here, but it really just.
There was a paradigm shift forme.
And since then that's just been.
The motivator is the power ofthe ability to change people in
(02:19):
a moment and then, you know, alittle bit, forever.
So that's where it started.
But then performing, I just wasalways the person thinking
about the context of theaudience and like how did they
get here and how do we createthat change?
And all the conditions aroundwhat's happening on stage were
just my natural place to bepulled to, which then
immediately get pulled into thebusiness structure, right, like
how to create a healthy businessto support all of this.
(02:40):
So it was very natural, justsort of tractor beam pull into
that side of things.
And I first was an independentproducer and then found
SoundStreams who you know wasthe one that took the coffee
with me and then was thereworking my way up the ranks
until I was the executivedirector and then now moving on
to consulting for arts leadersaround the world.
Elizabeth Bowman (02:57):
So tell me about the consulting who do you
work for and what exactly doesthat mean?
Ben Dietsche (03:04):
Yeah, which means it means nothing at first.
Right, I work for the DeVosInstitute of Arts Management.
We're a consultancy and I thinkit's pretty special because we
work with individuals, we workwith groups and we work with
whole communities, and by that Imean we have a fellowship for
executive directors in thesummer.
We do work with individualorganizations, like you'd expect
, with strategic planning andmarketing plans and fundraising
(03:24):
plans.
We also do lots of interim work, like I'm often with my
colleagues, doing turnarounds,like we go in and help
reinvigorate organizations,which is really rewarding and as
hard as it sounds.
And then we do these programswith whole cohorts of
organizations in cities andregions, and we did a huge
project right through thepandemic with a couple hundred
organizations across the state.
So doing all of that, as youcan imagine, it's quite an
(03:46):
adventure.
It keeps me busy, so I reallyappreciate just the element of
service and consulting honestlylike being able to amplify that
impact and hopefully make thingsa little better for all those
organizations.
Elizabeth Bowman (03:59):
It's been pretty rewarding organizations
and, in particular, with yourcurrent position, what trends
are you seeing for artsorganizations, institutions and
how they approach long-termstability like sustainability
and the change in this currentmarket?
Ben Dietsche (04:15):
Yeah, it's the million dollar question.
I mean, look, really, if weboil it down fundamentally, it's
a potential relevancy crisis.
If we're looking long-termright, it's just to say that
really, the nature of engagementwith entertainment and the arts
and culture is shifting foreverwith digital substitutes, and
this we all know.
But this we must face in newways.
We really need to be bold here.
(04:35):
We can expect in the yearsahead for there to be ever more
compelling and free and low costoptions that are delivered
right to your face, to yourphone, to your home.
I think we really need to takethat seriously and think about
what are the experiences, thenature of the experiences that
the next generation wants toexperience.
Using that word experience fourtimes tells you that the
experience economy is a realthing, you know.
(04:56):
I think about immersivity, Ithink about multi-sensory
experiences, I think aboutdigital mediums and I think
about all those things somehownot being just buzzwords for
organizations that are rooted inthe classical arts.
How do we bring these thingstogether in ways that are
authentic for those missions andjust really try to make sure
we're having a conversationthat's going to be relevant
longer term for the nextgeneration?
I think about that the most.
(05:16):
And then there's definitelyother trends.
I mean the great wealthtransfer.
We're like in the middle of itnow and you can feel it.
We're in those rooms seeingthose conversations change.
It's new faces, it's the nextgeneration and they want
different things.
A lot of people are talkingabout venture philanthropy, you
know, and impact bonds, and howcan we create a conversation
around impact that's going toreally resonate in a new way?
(05:36):
That's on my mind as well.
There's so many other things wecan talk about, but those are
two big ones, I think.
Elizabeth Bowman (05:41):
Can you talk about venture philanthropy for
people who might not understandit?
Ben Dietsche (05:45):
Right, yeah, I get wonky like right away you got
to pull me back.
Pretty exciting to remains tobe seen, I think, if it is an
idea that materializes on groundlevel.
But what we're basically sayingis there's these family offices
and you know they've got theirdonation part that they're going
to do of their wealth each year, and then maybe that foundation
has an investment arm typically, and maybe the investment arm's
not even talking to thephilanthropy arm, so they might
(06:06):
be in the same thing, donatingfor an environmental cause and
then investing in oil companies,like directly or overweighting
in that or something.
It's just trying to bring itinto more of a spectrum where
you have somewhere in the middle, the idea that we're giving
money.
That's actually capital, it'sseed capital.
We we want some part of it back,probably.
We maybe want it back at 0%interest or way below market
level interest.
(06:27):
But it allows, I think, thefamily offices or whoever is
planning this, if it's aninstitution as well, to think
about that capital being givenin a different way.
And so I think that's nice tothink about this spectrum
between pure profit investingright over to philanthropy and
what we could do in the middle.
I'm not one of the peopleworking on that issue, but there
are definitely things to watchin that space if you're in the
charitable arts sector.
Elizabeth Bowman (06:47):
That makes me think of instrument investments
because obviously, well, I'mmarried to a violinist, so the
topic of violins and violinsales in the market and those as
an investment.
These instruments are becomingtoo expensive even for the
musicians themselves to own, butthe return on investment for
these instruments is huge forinvestors.
(07:08):
So when you think of anorchestra today and the sound of
that orchestra and the impactof the sound of that orchestra
with these amazing instrumentsthat people can't afford, so how
is it going to change the soundof those orchestras if only
economical instruments can beplayed?
(07:28):
Right?
But then you think of thisventure investment strategy and
this is a wonderful opportunityI'm just going to shout it out
on the podcast to buy thesewonderful instruments and the
return on investment is massive.
Ben Dietsche (07:42):
So do some research no-transcript linearly,
(08:16):
and so when these productsfirst came out and they were
kind of janky and sort of like afancy autocorrect, nobody was
thinking about thetransformative power, definitely
not in the arts.
I took an interest to it anddid an introductory sort of
exploratory seminar in ourfellowship, and my president at
Brett Egan at the DeVosInstitute is also very
interested in this.
So short of it is yeah, we'redoing this lab where we're
bringing together 10organizations right now, just
(08:36):
from America.
The point here is there'sstudies coming out of like
Harvard and MIT that are takinga wild swing at what the
productivity gains could be fromthis, and it looks like the
number is around 40%.
So if you just marinate on 40%more human resource capacity in
whatever area and we can talkabout that too you know what
amazing transformation thatwould produce.
In an industry that has thisperennial productivity problem
(08:58):
where it's never going to bemore efficient to do a symphony,
we need to support that sameamount of labor now, 200 years
in the future.
It's not the same as makingcars right.
So what can we do tosupercharge the capacity of
organizations in other ways?
So I'm very geared up aboutthis and really excited to just
bring together some minds thatare in the field, that are
willing to work on this, thatare at different stages of
(09:20):
implementing this technology,work through the governance,
risks, the policy you know theethical framework, but also
right into practical things.
What are we doing inprogramming and marketing and
community outreach and boardengagement?
You know financial planning andmodeling.
We really want to dive in andsee what's possible.
Elizabeth Bowman (09:35):
Yeah, that's wonderful that you're doing that
work.
I've spoken on the podcast afew times about how AI might
transform the way we analyzedata or data.
Everyone data data, you know.
I keep calling it data.
Anyway, I think it willtransform the way that we
(09:56):
analyze data and we haven't hadthe budgets to have necessarily
data analysts working inorganizations like smaller
organizations, midsizeorganizations, obviously.
Maybe the bigger sizeorganizations might be investing
in that.
But what specific things haveyou found, like, have you found
some programs, or what exactlyare you finding?
Ben Dietsche (10:18):
I think, just to your point, one of the most
exciting things broadly is thebeing able to use unstructured
data in an intuitive way, andyou're absolutely right that
midsize organizations don't havesomeone that can help them
structure and assemble theirdata in a way that's useful.
They're accumulating it nowusually because that's pretty
easy to do, but to be able tojust, with natural language
queries, use databases in newways, move data around, clean
(10:39):
them up, it's really excitingwhat you can think about doing.
I was just I popped into thechief information officer
conference in the arts whichexists, by the way that was at
the Shaw Festival Theatre,hosted there last week, and
there's just a lot of talk inthe room about this sort of
thing.
I'm seeing really twoapproaches One is that we're
okay with just a certain set oftools and the other is really
trying to tackle how we're goingto be using the technology in
(11:01):
terms of policy in theorganizations.
I think that's the better way togo.
We can't go by the tool,because the tools are evolving
and changing on a daily orweekly basis.
So I'm excited to think withorganizations about the use
cases and the specific tools.
I think as if you're gettinginto this, you might start by
looking at what we would callthe frontier models.
That's the really excitingboundary pushing companies that
(11:21):
are always working on what thatnext bit of functionality is
going to be.
That's your open AI right.
Mainly is, I think, the leaderin that.
There's also, of course,google's product.
That's really great.
Gemini.
There's Cloud, which is anotherchatbot that's keeping up for
sure.
So you can think about testingout all of these things, and I
think it's more about buildingthe muscle of how to use it.
It's like using an instrumentright.
(11:42):
A lot of people are still stucka year or two years ago in a
mentality where we're thinkingabout prompts and we're really
just kind of putting our toe inthe water.
But the more you push into thisand the more you think about
interacting with these thingsthe way you would with a junior
staff person, you can reallyfind use cases in multiple
departments.
I'm happy to talk about thoseif you want to go that deep into
it, but I think it's reallyexciting to build up that sort
(12:03):
of skill and capacity inmanagers so that they can start
thinking more imaginativelyabout the uses.
Elizabeth Bowman (12:09):
When I think about some, I mean there are a
myriad of uses, obviously butwhen I think in terms of the
branding structure of anorganization, particularly,
maybe specifically to do withthe way that that organization
uses language and communicates amessage or tries to integrate
their mission and vision intoeverything that they're putting
(12:31):
across to their audience.
So in terms of the customerfirst communication line, I
imagine AI could be quite usefulin terms of putting a filter
onto what text a junior staffmight be using, for instance, to
communicate with a customer.
You know what I mean, Just aswe.
You know, I joked on the lastepisode about putting my email
in and making it more politeinto hat, GPT or whatever.
(12:53):
You could probably filter itinto sort of a branding model
and then suddenly yourorganization has a voice and
speaks a certain way.
Obviously you would have tohave the human element to
correct and manipulate that textto work in the exact way that
you want to communicate, becausewe don't want to replace humans
, but just in terms of gettingthat consistent messaging across
(13:15):
, it's quite interesting.
Ben Dietsche (13:16):
It's really exciting to think about the
brand voice and the specificitywith which we can now talk to
different segments, which wassomething typically reserved for
much larger marketingdepartments.
So I'm absolutely with youthere.
I think actually quite easy tostart that work and to have
multiple personas served reallywell by midsize organizations
now.
But you know, there is thislabor disruption point that you
talked about.
We could dig into that if youwant.
(13:38):
You said give, give this toolto the junior staffer to use.
I think there's a coupleinteresting things to think
about.
You know, I was just talking tosome software engineers a
couple of weeks ago at a partyand they said my job has changed
.
I no longer am a coder, Isupervise AI coders, essentially
right.
And they were being honest,there was nobody to impress in
the room.
So I think we can expect thesame thing, which sounds
(13:59):
exciting, actually, if you skipover the mundane work and you
get people more elevated in whatthey're doing.
But the gap that I see that'sthe most important to fill is
you know, you still need a wayfor people to learn basic skills
, and so what do we do if thejob starts at tier four and you
have the chatbots doing all ofthe remedial, writing or
whatever else you had to do, say, to learn in marketing or even
in fundraising the parts of itthat are back office?
(14:20):
So I think we're going to haveto be careful in both the
education sector post-secondarypreparing talent and then also
how we think about onboardingand training junior staff in a
very different way, and it hasto be intentional.
Otherwise I think we're goingto end up with big skill gaps.
Does that make sense?
Elizabeth Bowman (14:34):
Yeah, it totally makes sense.
I mean, even I have a daughterin fourth grade and a son in
first grade, but he's notwriting anything yet in terms of
essays and that kind of thing.
You know, she's growing up inan environment that there is
chat GPT and she's aware of itand it's very important that
these young kids don't use chatGPT to write a paragraph.
(14:56):
I mean, you need to just writea paragraph and how to write.
It's going to be a huge barrierfor these kids who are growing
up in this generation if theyuse these tools without learning
themselves how to write and howto make an argument and
exercise that part of your brain.
Ben Dietsche (15:16):
I mean more than anything.
I think we have to build peoplethat are critical thinkers and
have social skills.
Now, like, I think it justboils down to needing droves and
droves of that and recognizingthat we can't really expect to
be successful in the world ifwe're just leaning on more basic
competencies.
So I think some hugetransformation coming, you know,
not just in productivity but inhow we prepare people for their
(15:37):
working lives.
Elizabeth Bowman (15:38):
Yeah, ai is certainly a compliment and not a
replacement.
So, on that note, what do youthink the greatest risks are,
you know, in terms of ethics andall of these question marks we
have in terms of the copyrightand whose voice we're using, and
, like there are, there are noprecepts in place right now
(16:00):
around AI.
Ben Dietsche (16:01):
Yeah, I think arts organizations are forgive me
for saying a bit too risk averse.
Most nonprofits are.
It's really frustrating, in away, being on the back foot all
the time whenever there's aninnovation, and I would just
like for this to be oneopportunity where we get out in
front of this.
I'm going to then address, ofcourse, the ethical point.
I understand you know whyartists in particular it's a
(16:22):
real sore spot here because allof this information has been
stolen.
But I think the genie is out ofthe bottle.
I don't think the answer is tosort of try to resist this tidal
wave of change.
I think we have to understandthat these billion-dollar
companies are going to addresslegality over time.
It's frustrating that they arecutting first and asking
questions later, but we justhave to think about a world
(16:43):
where we're the lastorganization left that's
resisting, using tools that havepotentially a 40% productivity
gain.
So where I think we need tostart with this is just
recognize that the genie's outof the bottle and then ask what
is our mission asking us to do,what are our organizational
values asking us to do in termsof the way we approach that
mission, and then ask how AIfits into that.
And so we have a seminar in ourprogram that's going to address
(17:04):
all of that.
You know, I think just startingthat conversation on the
governance level and reallyworking through it so that you
start to have a framework to beable to experiment and innovate
within.
But I would posit that you knowwe can't go backwards.
And I'm still sort of hearingthis dialogue.
It's just sort of a resistanceto this.
I don't know that that's theright answer.
I want things to be easier forarts nonprofits.
I don't want them to have totry to solve all of the world's
(17:25):
problems, maybe just the oneswithin their mission, right?
So that's how I come to theconversation which some people
disagree with.
But I think we ought to think alittle bit practically that way
as well.
Elizabeth Bowman (17:33):
Still thinking about these tools in mind and
how they will help organizations, I want to ask you about talent
development and succession,because some organizations don't
really think in terms ofsuccession planning, and how
might these tools help?
Ben Dietsche (17:50):
Yeah, it's really interesting when you think about
this landscape still in Canada,where we have many founder led
organizations of a sort ofprecarious size, if I may say,
and we need to really thinkabout what that means, of course
, in America too, but I just Ithink of it in Canada because of
the timing right.
There was a period in which alot of these organizations were
born and they're now at thatpoint where everybody needs to
(18:12):
be retiring soon.
Some succession planning isreally about the organization
and its people really thinkingthrough this, and it doesn't
have anything to do with AI, inmy view.
I'm thinking on the spot aboutthis.
I haven't thought aboutsuccession planning in AI.
I think the one place where itwould probably be helpful is
participating in creatinginstitutional memory in
interesting ways.
Again, think about the way thatwe use unstructured data.
(18:34):
I think about the treasuretrove of notes and curatorial
planning documents and thingsthat, for example, artistic
directors accumulate, and howthat's not really useful for
anyone coming in who's busy, whoneeds to get working on next
year's season, but couldpotentially be really
interesting if there was abespoke bot that has learned
everything, hoovered up all theinformation about the
(18:55):
organization and its artisticplanning over the last 30 years
and can give pretty good answersto was this program before and
what else was on the program,find interesting relationships
between things.
I think it helps buildinfrastructure in that sense.
Elizabeth Bowman (19:09):
That's what I was thinking.
There might be some sort of bot.
Of course we don't want peoplenecessarily in our emails and
that kind of thing, but if youdid jump into a role as
executive director of anorganization and you didn't have
the setup that the RoyalConservatory just had which the
whole one year of overlap forAlex Brose and, you know, having
(19:33):
Peter Simon there for an entireyear that's an amazing
opportunity.
But if you don't have thatopportunity, it would be cool to
ask the specific chat botquestions Like who would my
predecessor have contacted aboutXYZ?
And then the bot says well,your predecessor had a five-year
(19:53):
relationship with thisorganization and this person
works for this and that and thisand they are connected to this
and that and that I mean, ofcourse.
Then you're getting into thisquestion of ethics, because they
can't really get thatinformation without connecting
with the work emails.
Ben Dietsche (20:08):
Yeah, I think there's a brilliant idea.
You should patent this and Ithink I think you should connect
to the emails.
I think that's reallyinteresting.
I mean, that's the ongoing sortof steady stream stream of
consciousness daily.
You know connections could bebuilt from all of that in a
really interesting way.
I think that's a great point.
There's a more official way youcan think about a repository
that's like a knowledge base,right, maybe that's even public
(20:30):
facing or something.
But then these internal waysyou can use unstructured data.
I think boundless what thatcould do.
It's really great.
Elizabeth Bowman (20:37):
Also with large organizations, like we'll
say, for example, theMetropolitan Opera.
It's a massive organization.
It would also be interesting toknow which departments are also
communicating with that otherorganization.
Like maybe Sheila indevelopment has a close contact
at this organization, but alsoMargaret in marketing is using
(20:59):
another contact at that sameorganization.
And how can you maximize thepotential for that relationship
between those businesses,whereas we wouldn't necessarily
know about them communicatingwith one another without a
formal outward facingannouncement?
Ben Dietsche (21:15):
Yeah, exactly.
Elizabeth Bowman (21:16):
Yeah, there's a lot of that going on, so yeah,
I guess that's a cool idea.
The organizational chat box.
Ben Dietsche (21:21):
Yeah, no, you can count on that.
Someone in Silicon Valley isworking on that already, so I'm
sure we'll see that.
It's a great idea.
Elizabeth Bowman (21:27):
That's why I love this podcast.
All right.
Well, in terms of artsmanagement programs, what do you
think should be taught rightnow, Like?
What do you think should be thefocus for these upcoming
administrators?
Ben Dietsche (21:43):
You know, we're really accelerating into this
place where the quote unquote 21C skills are everything.
So I just think about emotionalintelligence being something
that it's going to be verydifficult for AI to catch up to
for a very long time, to thepoint where most people can't
imagine it.
I can imagine it actually beinga point where we can't
distinguish that as well interms of human, non human, but
(22:03):
for a while I think that'sreally really important in
interpreting how our actions fitinto a context of values and a
community, and this is verynuanced.
Some of it is impossible toeven put into language.
So we know for sure that'sgoing to be really important.
And then just critical thinkingbeing able to absolutely assess
, synthesize vast amounts ofinformation really quickly and
(22:24):
do so as a human in the loop isthe term that we hear.
Right, we want to keepeverything human centered.
How do we have people coming outof arts administration schools
with those skill sets?
I think it's super important.
You know the business acumenhas to be there, but as someone
that learned that in the wild, Ithink there's multiple ways you
can get that and it certainlyisn't the wild.
I think there's multiple waysyou can get that and it
certainly isn't the answer.
(22:45):
I've worked with people thathave MBAs that just don't seem
to see the big picture that theyneed to see to be successful
and don't see the dynamics of anenvironment and how the people
fit into that as the way toachieve goals.
I think those soft skills andcritical thinking skills are
just absolutely important in theworld that we're now entering
(23:05):
into.
Elizabeth Bowman (23:05):
What are your thoughts on LinkedIn in terms of
communication tool for artsorganizations and arts
administrators?
Ben Dietsche (23:11):
Feels kind of like the last social media space
that isn't annoying.
It's the one I actually enjoy.
I think it's really interesting.
I started out I'm not a socialmedia guy per se, but I work in
marketing often and I think it'sfair to say I started out I'm
not a social media guy per se,but I work in marketing often
and I think it's fair to say itwas just sort of a boring, empty
, dusty wasteland for a longtime, but it has become a very
generative space.
I think there's a lot of reallyinteresting thought leadership.
(23:33):
I think that you can really seewhat's happening in other
industries and look forconnections and see what's
happening in the arts.
I think it's productive.
I haven't seen it as anaudience builder per se yet I
don't know that people are goingthere for that but as an
industry tool to share ideas.
Obviously that's its corepurpose.
It's really effective, reallyeffective, and has sort of
stayed on track that way,whereas other platforms seem to
(23:53):
have kind of devolved a littlebit in the last 10 years.
Elizabeth Bowman (23:56):
What's one mindset shift or practical step
you think arts leaders shouldtake today to prepare for the
future that we're walking into?
Ben Dietsche (24:05):
I think, if I was to impossibly answer your
question about one mindset shiftthat we should have as we head
into this future, it's thatleaders need to make time in
their day to reflect.
Leaders need interstitial timeto think deeply about the
decisions that they're making.
It's always been the trope thatthe CEO or executive director
(24:25):
has everything flying at themall the time, but now I fear
that the information landscapeis such that we really aren't
taking time to think.
So just schedule some time inyour day to step away from your
desk and look out the window andthink about the things you need
to think about that day.
I promise the decisions willhave a depth and a nuance that
will pay dividends of that timeback a hundred times.
(24:47):
Whether you meditate or don't.
It's really just about makingsure that we aren't just
answering everything with a halfsentence in our mind and we're
really thinking a little moredeeply about the dynamics of the
decisions that we're making.
Elizabeth Bowman (24:59):
Yeah, I think that's good advice Long walks
they help.
Ben Dietsche (25:02):
Is that your way to do it?
Elizabeth Bowman (25:03):
Yeah, sort of I guess long walks runs,
whatever, but getting outsidefresh air, I think, definitely
is something that gets the braingoing in a productive and clear
way.
Ben Dietsche (25:15):
Love it.
Yeah, long hikes for me too,when things get really
complicated.
It's, that's the way, I'm sureof it.
Elizabeth Bowman (25:20):
Yeah, I always joke that the answer is in the
mountain.
All right, thanks so much forbeing here today.
It's been really great to chatwith you.
Ben Dietsche (25:26):
Really fun.
Thanks so much, Liz.
Hi, I'm Elizabeth Bowman and welcome to
the Scene Room.
Today I have Ben Dietschi here.
He is a senior consultant withthe DeVos Institute of Arts
Management, where he assistsarts and culture organizations
in reaching their full potential.
Prior to joining the Institute,ben served as executive
director of SoundStreams,canada's leading contemporary
(00:20):
music and opera producer.
I have followed Ben's careersince his SoundStream days and
he is really doing fascinatingthings.
We focused the conversationtoday on AI because he is
developing an AI trainingprogram for arts administrators.
If you're enjoying the SceneRoom podcast, please like it,
(00:42):
share it, review it, do any ofthose things.
It really helps keep theseconversations going.
Thanks for your support.
And now let's get to theconversation.
Ben, welcome to the scene room.
Ben Dietsche (00:53):
Good to be here.
Elizabeth Bowman (00:54):
I followed your career from your sound
stream days, so it's really niceto talk face to face on this
podcast.
Ben Dietsche (01:02):
Likewise, that's very kind.
You too Definitely seen youbouncing around everywhere and
making the arts better, sothanks for doing this, and I was
saying in our pre-chat thatit's just great that there's a
podcast about the arts.
It's missing, so it's great tobe here.
Elizabeth Bowman (01:15):
Tell me about your journey into arts
administration, because this isunique to everyone, obviously,
but upcoming emerging artsadministrators or people who are
thinking about jobs in the arts, who may be musicians or
dancers or artistic people ingeneral who are interested in
the business side.
How did you cross over or getinto it?
(01:36):
I assume you must have musiceducation.
Ben Dietsche (01:38):
Yeah, I think for a lot of us it starts with
getting sucked into the artsfirst and honestly, there's a
specific moment I remember thathappening.
I was in high school.
I was in band.
I play the saxophone I still doand we were in one of those
competitions.
You know where you go in toearn trophies and have sort of
Mr Holland's opus band director.
It was all very intense.
(01:59):
At a point in the piece we wereplaying I think it was a Percy
Grainger thing the audiencestarted to weep, like two thirds
of the room, for real, likethis.
This happened and it, just in amoment, made me understand how
powerful the arts are.
And that might sound overlypoetic here, but it really just.
There was a paradigm shift forme.
And since then that's just been.
The motivator is the power ofthe ability to change people in
(02:19):
a moment and then, you know, alittle bit, forever.
So that's where it started.
But then performing, I just wasalways the person thinking
about the context of theaudience and like how did they
get here and how do we createthat change?
And all the conditions aroundwhat's happening on stage were
just my natural place to bepulled to, which then
immediately get pulled into thebusiness structure, right, like
how to create a healthy businessto support all of this.
(02:40):
So it was very natural, justsort of tractor beam pull into
that side of things.
And I first was an independentproducer and then found
SoundStreams who you know wasthe one that took the coffee
with me and then was thereworking my way up the ranks
until I was the executivedirector and then now moving on
to consulting for arts leadersaround the world.
Elizabeth Bowman (02:57):
So tell me about the consulting who do you
work for and what exactly doesthat mean?
Ben Dietsche (03:04):
Yeah, which means it means nothing at first.
Right, I work for the DeVosInstitute of Arts Management.
We're a consultancy and I thinkit's pretty special because we
work with individuals, we workwith groups and we work with
whole communities, and by that Imean we have a fellowship for
executive directors in thesummer.
We do work with individualorganizations, like you'd expect
, with strategic planning andmarketing plans and fundraising
(03:24):
plans.
We also do lots of interim work, like I'm often with my
colleagues, doing turnarounds,like we go in and help
reinvigorate organizations,which is really rewarding and as
hard as it sounds.
And then we do these programswith whole cohorts of
organizations in cities andregions, and we did a huge
project right through thepandemic with a couple hundred
organizations across the state.
So doing all of that, as youcan imagine, it's quite an
(03:46):
adventure.
It keeps me busy, so I reallyappreciate just the element of
service and consulting honestlylike being able to amplify that
impact and hopefully make thingsa little better for all those
organizations.
Elizabeth Bowman (03:59):
It's been pretty rewarding organizations
and, in particular, with yourcurrent position, what trends
are you seeing for artsorganizations, institutions and
how they approach long-termstability like sustainability
and the change in this currentmarket?
Ben Dietsche (04:15):
Yeah, it's the million dollar question.
I mean, look, really, if weboil it down fundamentally, it's
a potential relevancy crisis.
If we're looking long-termright, it's just to say that
really, the nature of engagementwith entertainment and the arts
and culture is shifting foreverwith digital substitutes, and
this we all know.
But this we must face in newways.
We really need to be bold here.
(04:35):
We can expect in the yearsahead for there to be ever more
compelling and free and low costoptions that are delivered
right to your face, to yourphone, to your home.
I think we really need to takethat seriously and think about
what are the experiences, thenature of the experiences that
the next generation wants toexperience.
Using that word experience fourtimes tells you that the
experience economy is a realthing, you know.
(04:56):
I think about immersivity, Ithink about multi-sensory
experiences, I think aboutdigital mediums and I think
about all those things somehownot being just buzzwords for
organizations that are rooted inthe classical arts.
How do we bring these thingstogether in ways that are
authentic for those missions andjust really try to make sure
we're having a conversationthat's going to be relevant
longer term for the nextgeneration?
I think about that the most.
(05:16):
And then there's definitelyother trends.
I mean the great wealthtransfer.
We're like in the middle of itnow and you can feel it.
We're in those rooms seeingthose conversations change.
It's new faces, it's the nextgeneration and they want
different things.
A lot of people are talkingabout venture philanthropy, you
know, and impact bonds, and howcan we create a conversation
around impact that's going toreally resonate in a new way?
(05:36):
That's on my mind as well.
There's so many other things wecan talk about, but those are
two big ones, I think.
Elizabeth Bowman (05:41):
Can you talk about venture philanthropy for
people who might not understandit?
Ben Dietsche (05:45):
Right, yeah, I get wonky like right away you got
to pull me back.
Pretty exciting to remains tobe seen, I think, if it is an
idea that materializes on groundlevel.
But what we're basically sayingis there's these family offices
and you know they've got theirdonation part that they're going
to do of their wealth each year, and then maybe that foundation
has an investment arm typically, and maybe the investment arm's
not even talking to thephilanthropy arm, so they might
(06:06):
be in the same thing, donatingfor an environmental cause and
then investing in oil companies,like directly or overweighting
in that or something.
It's just trying to bring itinto more of a spectrum where
you have somewhere in the middle, the idea that we're giving
money.
That's actually capital, it'sseed capital.
We we want some part of it back,probably.
We maybe want it back at 0%interest or way below market
level interest.
(06:27):
But it allows, I think, thefamily offices or whoever is
planning this, if it's aninstitution as well, to think
about that capital being givenin a different way.
And so I think that's nice tothink about this spectrum
between pure profit investingright over to philanthropy and
what we could do in the middle.
I'm not one of the peopleworking on that issue, but there
are definitely things to watchin that space if you're in the
charitable arts sector.
Elizabeth Bowman (06:47):
That makes me think of instrument investments
because obviously, well, I'mmarried to a violinist, so the
topic of violins and violinsales in the market and those as
an investment.
These instruments are becomingtoo expensive even for the
musicians themselves to own, butthe return on investment for
these instruments is huge forinvestors.
(07:08):
So when you think of anorchestra today and the sound of
that orchestra and the impactof the sound of that orchestra
with these amazing instrumentsthat people can't afford, so how
is it going to change the soundof those orchestras if only
economical instruments can beplayed?
(07:28):
Right?
But then you think of thisventure investment strategy and
this is a wonderful opportunityI'm just going to shout it out
on the podcast to buy thesewonderful instruments and the
return on investment is massive.
Ben Dietsche (07:42):
So do some research no-transcript linearly,
(08:16):
and so when these productsfirst came out and they were
kind of janky and sort of like afancy autocorrect, nobody was
thinking about thetransformative power, definitely
not in the arts.
I took an interest to it anddid an introductory sort of
exploratory seminar in ourfellowship, and my president at
Brett Egan at the DeVosInstitute is also very
interested in this.
So short of it is yeah, we'redoing this lab where we're
bringing together 10organizations right now, just
(08:36):
from America.
The point here is there'sstudies coming out of like
Harvard and MIT that are takinga wild swing at what the
productivity gains could be fromthis, and it looks like the
number is around 40%.
So if you just marinate on 40%more human resource capacity in
whatever area and we can talkabout that too you know what
amazing transformation thatwould produce.
In an industry that has thisperennial productivity problem
(08:58):
where it's never going to bemore efficient to do a symphony,
we need to support that sameamount of labor now, 200 years
in the future.
It's not the same as makingcars right.
So what can we do tosupercharge the capacity of
organizations in other ways?
So I'm very geared up aboutthis and really excited to just
bring together some minds thatare in the field, that are
willing to work on this, thatare at different stages of
(09:20):
implementing this technology,work through the governance,
risks, the policy you know theethical framework, but also
right into practical things.
What are we doing inprogramming and marketing and
community outreach and boardengagement?
You know financial planning andmodeling.
We really want to dive in andsee what's possible.
Elizabeth Bowman (09:35):
Yeah, that's wonderful that you're doing that
work.
I've spoken on the podcast afew times about how AI might
transform the way we analyzedata or data.
Everyone data data, you know.
I keep calling it data.
Anyway, I think it willtransform the way that we
(09:56):
analyze data and we haven't hadthe budgets to have necessarily
data analysts working inorganizations like smaller
organizations, midsizeorganizations, obviously.
Maybe the bigger sizeorganizations might be investing
in that.
But what specific things haveyou found, like, have you found
some programs, or what exactlyare you finding?
Ben Dietsche (10:18):
I think, just to your point, one of the most
exciting things broadly is thebeing able to use unstructured
data in an intuitive way, andyou're absolutely right that
midsize organizations don't havesomeone that can help them
structure and assemble theirdata in a way that's useful.
They're accumulating it nowusually because that's pretty
easy to do, but to be able tojust, with natural language
queries, use databases in newways, move data around, clean
(10:39):
them up, it's really excitingwhat you can think about doing.
I was just I popped into thechief information officer
conference in the arts whichexists, by the way that was at
the Shaw Festival Theatre,hosted there last week, and
there's just a lot of talk inthe room about this sort of
thing.
I'm seeing really twoapproaches One is that we're
okay with just a certain set oftools and the other is really
trying to tackle how we're goingto be using the technology in
(11:01):
terms of policy in theorganizations.
I think that's the better way togo.
We can't go by the tool,because the tools are evolving
and changing on a daily orweekly basis.
So I'm excited to think withorganizations about the use
cases and the specific tools.
I think as if you're gettinginto this, you might start by
looking at what we would callthe frontier models.
That's the really excitingboundary pushing companies that
(11:21):
are always working on what thatnext bit of functionality is
going to be.
That's your open AI right.
Mainly is, I think, the leaderin that.
There's also, of course,google's product.
That's really great.
Gemini.
There's Cloud, which is anotherchatbot that's keeping up for
sure.
So you can think about testingout all of these things, and I
think it's more about buildingthe muscle of how to use it.
It's like using an instrumentright.
(11:42):
A lot of people are still stucka year or two years ago in a
mentality where we're thinkingabout prompts and we're really
just kind of putting our toe inthe water.
But the more you push into thisand the more you think about
interacting with these thingsthe way you would with a junior
staff person, you can reallyfind use cases in multiple
departments.
I'm happy to talk about thoseif you want to go that deep into
it, but I think it's reallyexciting to build up that sort
(12:03):
of skill and capacity inmanagers so that they can start
thinking more imaginativelyabout the uses.
Elizabeth Bowman (12:09):
When I think about some, I mean there are a
myriad of uses, obviously butwhen I think in terms of the
branding structure of anorganization, particularly,
maybe specifically to do withthe way that that organization
uses language and communicates amessage or tries to integrate
their mission and vision intoeverything that they're putting
(12:31):
across to their audience.
So in terms of the customerfirst communication line, I
imagine AI could be quite usefulin terms of putting a filter
onto what text a junior staffmight be using, for instance, to
communicate with a customer.
You know what I mean, Just aswe.
You know, I joked on the lastepisode about putting my email
in and making it more politeinto hat, GPT or whatever.
(12:53):
You could probably filter itinto sort of a branding model
and then suddenly yourorganization has a voice and
speaks a certain way.
Obviously you would have tohave the human element to
correct and manipulate that textto work in the exact way that
you want to communicate, becausewe don't want to replace humans
, but just in terms of gettingthat consistent messaging across
(13:15):
, it's quite interesting.
Ben Dietsche (13:16):
It's really exciting to think about the
brand voice and the specificitywith which we can now talk to
different segments, which wassomething typically reserved for
much larger marketingdepartments.
So I'm absolutely with youthere.
I think actually quite easy tostart that work and to have
multiple personas served reallywell by midsize organizations
now.
But you know, there is thislabor disruption point that you
talked about.
We could dig into that if youwant.
(13:38):
You said give, give this toolto the junior staffer to use.
I think there's a coupleinteresting things to think
about.
You know, I was just talking tosome software engineers a
couple of weeks ago at a partyand they said my job has changed
.
I no longer am a coder, Isupervise AI coders, essentially
right.
And they were being honest,there was nobody to impress in
the room.
So I think we can expect thesame thing, which sounds
(13:59):
exciting, actually, if you skipover the mundane work and you
get people more elevated in whatthey're doing.
But the gap that I see that'sthe most important to fill is
you know, you still need a wayfor people to learn basic skills
, and so what do we do if thejob starts at tier four and you
have the chatbots doing all ofthe remedial, writing or
whatever else you had to do, say, to learn in marketing or even
in fundraising the parts of itthat are back office?
(14:20):
So I think we're going to haveto be careful in both the
education sector post-secondarypreparing talent and then also
how we think about onboardingand training junior staff in a
very different way, and it hasto be intentional.
Otherwise I think we're goingto end up with big skill gaps.
Does that make sense?
Elizabeth Bowman (14:34):
Yeah, it totally makes sense.
I mean, even I have a daughterin fourth grade and a son in
first grade, but he's notwriting anything yet in terms of
essays and that kind of thing.
You know, she's growing up inan environment that there is
chat GPT and she's aware of itand it's very important that
these young kids don't use chatGPT to write a paragraph.
(14:56):
I mean, you need to just writea paragraph and how to write.
It's going to be a huge barrierfor these kids who are growing
up in this generation if theyuse these tools without learning
themselves how to write and howto make an argument and
exercise that part of your brain.
Ben Dietsche (15:16):
I mean more than anything.
I think we have to build peoplethat are critical thinkers and
have social skills.
Now, like, I think it justboils down to needing droves and
droves of that and recognizingthat we can't really expect to
be successful in the world ifwe're just leaning on more basic
competencies.
So I think some hugetransformation coming, you know,
not just in productivity but inhow we prepare people for their
(15:37):
working lives.
Elizabeth Bowman (15:38):
Yeah, ai is certainly a compliment and not a
replacement.
So, on that note, what do youthink the greatest risks are,
you know, in terms of ethics andall of these question marks we
have in terms of the copyrightand whose voice we're using, and
, like there are, there are noprecepts in place right now
(16:00):
around AI.
Ben Dietsche (16:01):
Yeah, I think arts organizations are forgive me
for saying a bit too risk averse.
Most nonprofits are.
It's really frustrating, in away, being on the back foot all
the time whenever there's aninnovation, and I would just
like for this to be oneopportunity where we get out in
front of this.
I'm going to then address, ofcourse, the ethical point.
I understand you know whyartists in particular it's a
(16:22):
real sore spot here because allof this information has been
stolen.
But I think the genie is out ofthe bottle.
I don't think the answer is tosort of try to resist this tidal
wave of change.
I think we have to understandthat these billion-dollar
companies are going to addresslegality over time.
It's frustrating that they arecutting first and asking
questions later, but we justhave to think about a world
(16:43):
where we're the lastorganization left that's
resisting, using tools that havepotentially a 40% productivity
gain.
So where I think we need tostart with this is just
recognize that the genie's outof the bottle and then ask what
is our mission asking us to do,what are our organizational
values asking us to do in termsof the way we approach that
mission, and then ask how AIfits into that.
And so we have a seminar in ourprogram that's going to address
(17:04):
all of that.
You know, I think just startingthat conversation on the
governance level and reallyworking through it so that you
start to have a framework to beable to experiment and innovate
within.
But I would posit that you knowwe can't go backwards.
And I'm still sort of hearingthis dialogue.
It's just sort of a resistanceto this.
I don't know that that's theright answer.
I want things to be easier forarts nonprofits.
I don't want them to have totry to solve all of the world's
(17:25):
problems, maybe just the oneswithin their mission, right?
So that's how I come to theconversation which some people
disagree with.
But I think we ought to think alittle bit practically that way
as well.
Elizabeth Bowman (17:33):
Still thinking about these tools in mind and
how they will help organizations, I want to ask you about talent
development and succession,because some organizations don't
really think in terms ofsuccession planning, and how
might these tools help?
Ben Dietsche (17:50):
Yeah, it's really interesting when you think about
this landscape still in Canada,where we have many founder led
organizations of a sort ofprecarious size, if I may say,
and we need to really thinkabout what that means, of course
, in America too, but I just Ithink of it in Canada because of
the timing right.
There was a period in which alot of these organizations were
born and they're now at thatpoint where everybody needs to
(18:12):
be retiring soon.
Some succession planning isreally about the organization
and its people really thinkingthrough this, and it doesn't
have anything to do with AI, inmy view.
I'm thinking on the spot aboutthis.
I haven't thought aboutsuccession planning in AI.
I think the one place where itwould probably be helpful is
participating in creatinginstitutional memory in
interesting ways.
Again, think about the way thatwe use unstructured data.
(18:34):
I think about the treasuretrove of notes and curatorial
planning documents and thingsthat, for example, artistic
directors accumulate, and howthat's not really useful for
anyone coming in who's busy, whoneeds to get working on next
year's season, but couldpotentially be really
interesting if there was abespoke bot that has learned
everything, hoovered up all theinformation about the
(18:55):
organization and its artisticplanning over the last 30 years
and can give pretty good answersto was this program before and
what else was on the program,find interesting relationships
between things.
I think it helps buildinfrastructure in that sense.
Elizabeth Bowman (19:09):
That's what I was thinking.
There might be some sort of bot.
Of course we don't want peoplenecessarily in our emails and
that kind of thing, but if youdid jump into a role as
executive director of anorganization and you didn't have
the setup that the RoyalConservatory just had which the
whole one year of overlap forAlex Brose and, you know, having
(19:33):
Peter Simon there for an entireyear that's an amazing
opportunity.
But if you don't have thatopportunity, it would be cool to
ask the specific chat botquestions Like who would my
predecessor have contacted aboutXYZ?
And then the bot says well,your predecessor had a five-year
(19:53):
relationship with thisorganization and this person
works for this and that and thisand they are connected to this
and that and that I mean, ofcourse.
Then you're getting into thisquestion of ethics, because they
can't really get thatinformation without connecting
with the work emails.
Ben Dietsche (20:08):
Yeah, I think there's a brilliant idea.
You should patent this and Ithink I think you should connect
to the emails.
I think that's reallyinteresting.
I mean, that's the ongoing sortof steady stream stream of
consciousness daily.
You know connections could bebuilt from all of that in a
really interesting way.
I think that's a great point.
There's a more official way youcan think about a repository
that's like a knowledge base,right, maybe that's even public
(20:30):
facing or something.
But then these internal waysyou can use unstructured data.
I think boundless what thatcould do.
It's really great.
Elizabeth Bowman (20:37):
Also with large organizations, like we'll
say, for example, theMetropolitan Opera.
It's a massive organization.
It would also be interesting toknow which departments are also
communicating with that otherorganization.
Like maybe Sheila indevelopment has a close contact
at this organization, but alsoMargaret in marketing is using
(20:59):
another contact at that sameorganization.
And how can you maximize thepotential for that relationship
between those businesses,whereas we wouldn't necessarily
know about them communicatingwith one another without a
formal outward facingannouncement?
Ben Dietsche (21:15):
Yeah, exactly.
Elizabeth Bowman (21:16):
Yeah, there's a lot of that going on, so yeah,
I guess that's a cool idea.
The organizational chat box.
Ben Dietsche (21:21):
Yeah, no, you can count on that.
Someone in Silicon Valley isworking on that already, so I'm
sure we'll see that.
It's a great idea.
Elizabeth Bowman (21:27):
That's why I love this podcast.
All right.
Well, in terms of artsmanagement programs, what do you
think should be taught rightnow, Like?
What do you think should be thefocus for these upcoming
administrators?
Ben Dietsche (21:43):
You know, we're really accelerating into this
place where the quote unquote 21C skills are everything.
So I just think about emotionalintelligence being something
that it's going to be verydifficult for AI to catch up to
for a very long time, to thepoint where most people can't
imagine it.
I can imagine it actually beinga point where we can't
distinguish that as well interms of human, non human, but
(22:03):
for a while I think that'sreally really important in
interpreting how our actions fitinto a context of values and a
community, and this is verynuanced.
Some of it is impossible toeven put into language.
So we know for sure that'sgoing to be really important.
And then just critical thinkingbeing able to absolutely assess
, synthesize vast amounts ofinformation really quickly and
(22:24):
do so as a human in the loop isthe term that we hear.
Right, we want to keepeverything human centered.
How do we have people coming outof arts administration schools
with those skill sets?
I think it's super important.
You know the business acumenhas to be there, but as someone
that learned that in the wild, Ithink there's multiple ways you
can get that and it certainlyisn't the wild.
I think there's multiple waysyou can get that and it
certainly isn't the answer.
(22:45):
I've worked with people thathave MBAs that just don't seem
to see the big picture that theyneed to see to be successful
and don't see the dynamics of anenvironment and how the people
fit into that as the way toachieve goals.
I think those soft skills andcritical thinking skills are
just absolutely important in theworld that we're now entering
(23:05):
into.
Elizabeth Bowman (23:05):
What are your thoughts on LinkedIn in terms of
communication tool for artsorganizations and arts
administrators?
Ben Dietsche (23:11):
Feels kind of like the last social media space
that isn't annoying.
It's the one I actually enjoy.
I think it's really interesting.
I started out I'm not a socialmedia guy per se, but I work in
marketing often and I think it'sfair to say I started out I'm
not a social media guy per se,but I work in marketing often
and I think it's fair to say itwas just sort of a boring, empty
, dusty wasteland for a longtime, but it has become a very
generative space.
I think there's a lot of reallyinteresting thought leadership.
(23:33):
I think that you can really seewhat's happening in other
industries and look forconnections and see what's
happening in the arts.
I think it's productive.
I haven't seen it as anaudience builder per se yet I
don't know that people are goingthere for that but as an
industry tool to share ideas.
Obviously that's its corepurpose.
It's really effective, reallyeffective, and has sort of
stayed on track that way,whereas other platforms seem to
(23:53):
have kind of devolved a littlebit in the last 10 years.
Elizabeth Bowman (23:56):
What's one mindset shift or practical step
you think arts leaders shouldtake today to prepare for the
future that we're walking into?
Ben Dietsche (24:05):
I think, if I was to impossibly answer your
question about one mindset shiftthat we should have as we head
into this future, it's thatleaders need to make time in
their day to reflect.
Leaders need interstitial timeto think deeply about the
decisions that they're making.
It's always been the trope thatthe CEO or executive director
(24:25):
has everything flying at themall the time, but now I fear
that the information landscapeis such that we really aren't
taking time to think.
So just schedule some time inyour day to step away from your
desk and look out the window andthink about the things you need
to think about that day.
I promise the decisions willhave a depth and a nuance that
will pay dividends of that timeback a hundred times.
(24:47):
Whether you meditate or don't.
It's really just about makingsure that we aren't just
answering everything with a halfsentence in our mind and we're
really thinking a little moredeeply about the dynamics of the
decisions that we're making.
Elizabeth Bowman (24:59):
Yeah, I think that's good advice Long walks
they help.
Ben Dietsche (25:02):
Is that your way to do it?
Elizabeth Bowman (25:03):
Yeah, sort of I guess long walks runs,
whatever, but getting outsidefresh air, I think, definitely
is something that gets the braingoing in a productive and clear
way.
Ben Dietsche (25:15):
Love it.
Yeah, long hikes for me too,when things get really
complicated.
It's, that's the way, I'm sureof it.
Elizabeth Bowman (25:20):
Yeah, I always joke that the answer is in the
mountain.
All right, thanks so much forbeing here today.
It's been really great to chatwith you.
Ben Dietsche (25:26):
Really fun.
Thanks so much, Liz.
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