January 22, 2025 • 44 mins
Sarah Slean, a 4-time JUNO and 2-time GEMINI-nominated performer, composer, poet, and modern renaissance woman, joins host Elizabeth Bowman in The Scene Room to share her inspiring artistic journey. From early piano lessons to arranging her own string compositions, Sarah's story is one of resilience, boundless creativity, and defying convention.
In this episode, Sarah opens up about resisting the commercialization of art, championing inclusivity, and advocating for music as a universal language accessible to everyone—regardless of social or financial barriers.
Listeners will hear Sarah’s personal insights on navigating the ever-changing music industry. From signing her first record deal at 20 to adapting to the digital age and the rise of streaming platforms, she reflects on the invaluable support of mentors and the challenges of sustaining a career amidst industry mergers and shifts.
Sarah also shares her passion for orchestral music, discussing creative inspirations, overcoming writer’s block, and the importance of fostering community through art. Her journey highlights the power of personal connections and grassroots efforts to build a lasting audience, underscoring the vital role of art in both personal and societal transformation.
All episodes are also available in video form on our YouTube Channel. All episodes are hosted by Elizabeth (Lizzie) Bowman.
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Don't hesitate to reach out to us with guest ideas, information you'd like covered, or any ideas you might have—the hope is for this to be a continuous resource and dialogue with our listeners.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Elizabeth Bowman (00:00):
Hi, I'm Elizabeth Bowman and welcome to
the Scene Room, where I amdiving deep into the business of
the performing arts, oneconversation at a time.
My inaugural guest is noneother than Sarah Slean, who is a
four-time Juno-nominated andtwo-time Gemini-nominated artist
(00:20):
.
She is a composer, a singer anda poet.
She does all the things.
Her influences span fromclassical to cabaret, to pop to
jazz.
She has a little bit ofeverything in her creative canon
.
I was so excited when sheagreed to have this conversation
(00:42):
with me, as I believe herinsights are really invaluable
to artists, fans alike.
So let's get started, Sarah.
Welcome to the scene room.
Sarah Slean (00:54):
Lizzie, thank you for having me.
Elizabeth Bowman (00:56):
This is really exciting.
We got to know each other alittle bit on the Black Flowers
tour.
Sarah Slean (01:01):
Oh my God, that was , it seems like so long ago,
2000 and something yeah, yeah,that must have been 2009.
Elizabeth Bowman (01:10):
10, yeah, something like that, something
like that.
And, for those listening, thatwas a project with the art of
time ensemble and AndrewBurashko, so that that was
really fun, and I knew youbeforehand from your music.
I had listened to your music,so this is really exciting.
I've always really admired you,especially for just like the
(01:33):
breadth of your creation, all ofthe influences in your music,
from classical to cabaret, popand you name it, whatever you
seem to see it comes out.
So that brings me to, I guess,my first question what was your
beginnings Like as a child, yourinteraction with music and
(01:55):
creation, or poetry?
What came first and where didyou come from?
Sarah Slean (02:00):
Who are you, you weird creature?
Yeah, I had a musical beginning, not unlike most musicians.
I feel like a lot of you knowpeople from my neck of the woods
.
You grew up and your parentstried to help you find something
that you enjoyed, and I hadearly music instruction.
That was the only thing I likedeverything.
(02:22):
No athletic gifts over here,zero.
I was just really interested.
It just fascinated me and Istudied piano all throughout
high school and elementaryschool, loved it.
It was solace, it was refuge,it was connected to something.
I think that's what a lot ofmusicians describe.
(02:43):
When music sort of capturesthem, it's like it reaches a
layer that kind of nothing elsereaches, gets in there, and I
loved that and I thought thatthere was some very significant
power in it, although you canarticulate those things at that
age.
But I went to university forpiano, oddly because I was, you
(03:06):
know, really, really into it atthe time, very dedicated.
But I was also writing songsand I didn't, you know, I had no
designs on becoming asongwriter or performer or
anything really, I just lovedplaying the piano.
So I studied with ChristinaPetroska for a year at York
University and that right aroundthat time I started playing in
(03:26):
clubs in the city, much to myparents horror, switched to U of
T to be closer to the venues,and then I got signed to
Atlantic and Warner and went ona 20 year journey of touring and
recording.
But yeah, I mean, as as a childbecoming interested in music,
my gateway was the music I wasstudying as a very small child.
(03:48):
You know that's when thelanguage of it, the sort of
parts, the DNA of music sort ofenter you and then as a teenager
you discover well, I discovereda lot of popular music.
But I mean at that beautifulage when you are still pure
enough to not be totally and Imean this is an age too before
(04:10):
iPhones, before the internet,right, there was enough
stillness of mind for me to bedrawn to purely what I was drawn
to.
So I would listen to the thirdsymphony, the symphony of
sorrowful songs, by or whoever.
I would listen to the Hilliardensemble, I would listen to Tori
(04:34):
Amos, I would listen toMozart's Requiem, I would listen
to all this stuff with no senseof allegiance to any of them,
no sense of like this means thisor none of the other baggage
that comes with what you listento.
And, oh, I prefer classicalmusic or I prefer etc.
Or I'm a punk kid or rock orwhatever.
There was no extra layer towhat I was drawn to musically
(04:58):
and I think that really, becauseI was fortunate enough to have
that very pure experience ofjust being drawn, it has sort of
kept me blind to genre andgiven me, I guess, a permission
to explore these other areaswhere some people are like I'm a
pop artist, I can't do that, Ican't work with orchestras, I
can't blah, blah, blah, you know, yeah, I love that, because a
(05:48):
lot of people are afraid to goto the opera, go to the symphony
, because they feel they have tosay a certain thing or react a
certain way and ultimately it'sjust about letting it wash over
you and taking the inspirationfrom what it is you're seeing.
And there's no right answer orwrong answer.
And we have to resist at allcosts the moneyed hijacking of
artistic expression, thecorporate hijacking of artistic
expression, like it does notbelong to a, a very, you know
the one percent.
It does not belong to them,even though they are the only
people that can buy and sellgreat works of art, etc.
Et cetera, like music is foreveryone, and I think we have to
resist those sort of culturalcues and the sort of you know
(06:14):
ivory tower messaging that weget about things like opera and
classical music, because if theyare going to remain relevant,
they need to speak to morepeople.
Elizabeth Bowman (06:25):
Definitely, and all the stories that are
told in most of the works areincredibly relatable and not
highbrow and not elitist asadvertised Exactly.
Sarah Slean (06:38):
I remember.
So I was so young, it was like2001 or 2002.
I forget I was, I was, I wasdoing my you know the requisite
backpack across Europe, kind ofthing.
You know.
I had broken up with aboyfriend and I was like soul
searching and I went all overEurope and I I saw I think it
was Salome in the opera house inVienna.
(07:01):
Way, way at the back, when youcan buy like the 10 euro ticket
and you stand for three hours.
Elizabeth Bowman (07:07):
But, I.
Sarah Slean (07:08):
that remains one of the most incredible, vibrant
artistic experiences I have everhad as a spectator, because
everyone was you know, reactingand everyone was unafraid to.
You know, it's not like we wereall decked out in furs and
diamonds, we were all back thereinto the story.
It was so exciting tocollectively feel with those
(07:31):
people, being so close, beingall standing, moving, breathing,
talking.
It was amazing.
Elizabeth Bowman (07:36):
Standing room tickets are the best.
Everyone they are really.
I mean you're in it together.
It's sort of an endurance sport.
Cycling back a little bit tothe development as an artist.
When we grew up, there was alot of this draw inside the
lines.
You are a specific kind ofartist.
You're a Baroque singer, you'rea pop artist, you're a jazz
(07:56):
artist.
You can't cross lines.
Thankfully, this philosophy ischanging and genuine creative
outlet is being respected, evenif it crosses genres.
So I'm curious about yourcareer as someone with such
diverse influences and howyou've navigated during those
(08:18):
times and to the present time.
Sarah Slean (08:21):
Yeah, I think a lot of it when I was young and I
was making my first recordingsand I I just knew what sounds I
wanted to hear.
I wanted to hear strings sobadly, I was so in love with
that sound and I would walkaround the foyer of U of T
looking for the right case andthen I would walk up to that
(08:43):
person and say, would you liketo be on a recording?
Like that is literally how Idid it and I think a lot of it
when I was young was just simplythe ignorance of youth.
Like I would write stringarrangements knowing absolutely
nothing about writing forstrings, learning as I went.
Yes, I was in school for music.
Yes, I was training, but I wasnever, I never received explicit
(09:05):
training on how to write astring arrangement, how to write
a string quartet, how to writean orchestral score.
Like that happened much, much,much later, after I had made so
many failed experiments right.
Like I listened to those earlyrecordings with, with string, my
string arrangements that Iwrote in my teens and early
twenties.
And you, I can literally hearover the progress of my body of
(09:27):
work, the language of it,changing and absorbing things
that work, rejecting things thatdon't work.
Starting to understand you knowwhat I mean Like, and I feel
like my seriously, I've.
I've got a master's in musicNow I have done so much formal
education in music and by farthe most instructive experience
(09:48):
has been to do it, To do it andget better.
By experience, you know, andI've been very fortunate enough
to hear the results of myexperiments.
So I would.
And again, the ignorance ofyouth.
Well, why can't I do those?
I'll just do it, and maybe thefirst three years you're doing
it.
They're all not that great, butI would get to hear them
(10:09):
because I would be performingwith the NACO and I'd say, can
we do three or four of myorchestral scores?
And Alain Trudel would be like,of course, and we do it.
And and then I would go, oh,this doesn't work here, this
needs to be different, theseguys should be doing this.
And you know, and I would justabsorb.
But yeah, in terms of likecrossing genre and and feeling
(10:33):
um allowed to, I didn't questionit.
It was the young, it was theignorance of youth.
It's this blessed thing likenow I experience much more
hesitation when I feel like I'vegot enough of a body of work in
classical, that I get asked, Iget commissions, I get asked to
do things.
But you know, when it comes tojazz, like I don't know that
(10:54):
language and some of it seeps in.
But now I know I havecolleagues who can be like, oh,
and I can write someone and theywill explain something to me.
You know, and all of these, allof the rich cultural heritage
that is out there, all of thesemusical languages, like there's,
there's so much.
The only worlds I'm feel I'mlike able to step into at this
(11:18):
point are the ones that I knowsomething about.
Elizabeth Bowman (11:22):
How old were you when you signed your first
record label?
Sarah Slean (11:26):
19 19.
Elizabeth Bowman (11:27):
Yeah, and was the who?
Which which record label was it?
Sarah Slean (11:31):
It was so this is an interesting time.
I think I signed up maybe I was20.
Yeah, I was 20.
I signed when I was 20.
I had made my own independentrecording called Universe this
was in 1997.
That's how old I am and I gotsigned and then they allowed me.
This was a time when there werehuge budgets and record labels
(11:51):
were very.
It was the old days.
They said, oh, you don't needto make your debut just yet.
Take two years, we'll fund it.
Make another independent record, which is just.
It doesn't happen anymore.
But they gave me some money andin 1998, I made and released
Blue Parade, which was my firstindependent recording.
And I didn't make the debut forAtlantic till another two years
(12:14):
, like 2000 was when I recordedthat album.
And that was Nightbugs, whichwas my official debut on that
label.
But right around that time thatturn of the decade was Napster
and digital media and the birthof all that label.
But right around that time,that turn of the decade was
Napster and digital media andthe birth of all that stuff.
So there was so much tumult andupheaval.
I recorded my album in upstateNew York, bearsville, very, very
(12:38):
celebrated studio.
Like a $300,000 US budget, likea $300,000 US budget.
Just like absolute, completeand utter insanity.
It's insanity.
I'm grateful I got toexperience that.
I mean, Hawksley Workman and Iwere driving a U-Haul down the
interstate with timpanis in theback.
It just doesn't make any sense.
But made that album.
(13:00):
Incredible experience with aworld-class facility,
world-class engineer, incrediblemusicians.
And then, like a year later,everyone I worked with at
Atlantic got fired and and TimeWarner bought AOL or AOL bought
Time Warner, something like thathappened and the whole house of
cards started to crumble.
(13:21):
And this is.
I watched in real time the, theeffect of digital media and I
mean it's even.
It's even more I don't want tosay catastrophic, that's not the
word more disruptive now right,streaming, spotify, all these
things.
It's just has been escalatingand escalating.
But yeah, that experience I wasso young and I you know.
(13:41):
You think when you get signedto a co-venture between an
American and a Canadian label,you're like this is it, this is
the big time lookout world.
And then, literally two yearslater, or however many years
later, like my record that Imade for them was not even
released in the States.
300 grand on it.
(14:05):
But here you go Sorry, we'renot going to put it out and
thankfully Warner loved it inCanada and they released it.
And then I started my Canadiancareer.
Elizabeth Bowman (14:10):
It's just wild .
What's going on with the musicindustry, with all of the
digital media, and it's evertransforming.
It's continuing to transform.
What would you advise emergingartists about their careers in
the current climate, Lizzie?
Sarah Slean (14:26):
this question kills me.
So I presently teach at auniversity here.
I teach at York University.
Teaching and mentorship hasalways been a big part of my
life too, because I trulyperhaps naively believe that art
has incredible social power andit's as nourishing as clean
(14:46):
water and clean air.
Like we, we need it, we make itall the time in every culture
on earth.
It is part of being human.
So I have immense faith that itwill always be here and it will
always have that transformativepower.
But I say to my students how canI advise you with my experience
of a world that bearsabsolutely no resemblance to the
(15:09):
world that you live in and willlive in?
Yes, there are universals.
Yes, there are nuggets of sortof unchanging human wisdom that
we can try to impart.
As an older colleague that'show I like to think of myself,
as you know, like an ally and anolder colleague I'm not judge
and arbiter and like A plus or Dminus.
But at the same time I just sayto them you know, like any
(15:32):
wisdom that I've gleaned thatwould be universal is a back pan
on an ever-changing, constantlychanging planet in constantly
changing industries, andparticularly in this time where
we see such a I'm just going tosay it baldly malevolent force
(15:55):
pulling resources, pulling,pulling, sucking, sucking
resources to the top and leavingeveryone else out to dry.
I think we're in an incrediblemoment in history where people
as you see, when any disasterstrikes, like LA, et cetera when
people become a community againof people that have mirror
neurons and experience empathyand can connect with each other
(16:19):
and behave quite nobly andbeautifully and honorably, that
is going to need to coalesce anderupt and I feel like that's
kind of what's underway.
So I we tend to talk about thisin my classes because I think
guys like if you feel this waybecause I mean there's a lot of
kids that feel the opposite waythey throw up their hands.
(16:40):
They're like Trump and Muskrule the world and I'm never
going to buy a house and screwit.
That's how they feel some ofthem.
But to the ones that arepassionate and still have all
that youthful energy and hope, Isay pour this into your work.
You are not great If you canplay the violin and the piano
(17:01):
faster, more precisely, morebeautifully than anyone in the
world awesome, that's amazingand valid and to be admired.
But if you are an artist thatfeels and is present in the
world and these thoughts andfeelings and worries, anxieties
and passion, all of that isinside you.
(17:22):
Put this into your work somehow, create, create, because I
really do believe that artistsare like imaginal cells that
they are.
Everybody loves to go like whocares?
Art is this extraneous, trivialthing that isn't also, if you
have the, the money to do it orwhatever, in your spare time
(17:42):
kind of thing and I disagree.
I think it's the exact opposite.
We are the people, creators,who are putting into the
collective imagination new ideasabout the way to live, to be,
new ideas about how to be Like.
That's what we need right now.
Right, we need to hear from allof those voices that we have
(18:05):
not heard from, that haveresulted in a world where
there's so much such amalevolent force.
Elizabeth Bowman (18:11):
I absolutely agree.
I think that I always try andbring things down to the lowest
common denominator, like interms of whenever I'm thinking
of a big problem and communityis the word.
Like amen as artists, you needto connect with a community, you
need to build a community andyou need to build that audience.
(18:32):
Like we need to get back toalmost like really early days,
like long before these bigbudgets and and whatever, where
people really did create the oldschool vibe.
We just need to haveperson-to-person connection, the
touring in small venues, andyou need to show up and it's
(18:53):
sort of that incremental workeach day, a little bit each day,
and grow your community fromthat and using I mean, I'm a
digital media person, that's myspecialty, with, obviously, the
singing background, but thoseemail lists are invaluable and
speaking to people, like peopleand not like you're a big
(19:13):
corporation, because I feel likeartists, like the whole game
has been lost in this sort oftornado of big business.
Sarah Slean (19:23):
Absolutely.
I feel like the whole world hasbeen lost in the tornado of big
business.
Well said, right Like we,because when it comes down to it
, I feel like LA is a perfectexample.
When it comes down to it,however you feel about that,
it's tragic that people havelost their homes and or lives in
some cases, but when thosethings happen, who comes to the
(19:43):
rescue?
I mean, we're all up in armslike that government, hasn't?
People, your neighbors, thepeople that are that live in
your town.
Elizabeth Bowman (19:53):
So can I ask you a little bit about your
creative process, because you doperform with symphonies and
chamber ensembles and also withyourself and your band.
I'm performing myself.
You know.
I mean there's a lot ofdifferent Sarah Sleens out there
.
What's the difference?
Like, how do you feelcreatively when you're
(20:15):
performing in these differentenvironments?
Like, what would you pinpointas sort of the experience for
you?
Sarah Slean (20:34):
solo tours, which is, you know, a whole other
experience, and I haven't donethat in so long that I think if
I was asked to do it now Iprobably would be too afraid
Just putting that out there,which I may do in October of
this year.
I've performed with bands, butthat whole period where I was
touring very heavily from 2000to about 2018, like almost 20
years of constant touring,constant touring, international
(20:54):
touring I'd say my favorite isaround that time was the
ensemble we landed with for Landand Sea, the album.
That was two albums One was thepop that I had become known for
and then Sea was this trueexpression of that, my deep
interest in strings andorchestral writing.
That had really come to floweron that record.
(21:15):
Land and Sea.
That was the maybe like.
I look at that as kind of aturning point, that project
where I was like this is where Iwant to go See, like it was a
21 piece orchestra of total rockstar classical players in
Toronto, my sort of lyricalsongs, but set to string
orchestra.
I mean it was a dream come true.
I had written four of thecharts and John Goldsmith, my
(21:38):
longtime mentor and colleague,had written the other three and
he was producing and I was justlike this is, I couldn't believe
that it had actually happenedin the flesh number one but
because I was on a smallboutique label too, like how is
this happening?
But it really cemented for methat that was where my
(21:58):
intellectual and spiritualinterest lay and that was going
to be the next phase of mycareer, because it just was
challenging.
You know, like I'd I'd donelots of band stuff and I was
kind of I didn't feel like Icould expand any further in that
and say anything different, youknow, and the, the orchestra
just captured me.
(22:18):
I'd say my favorite now in this, that sort of second chapter
from, say, 2012 onward, is toperform with an orchestra.
I mean, there's really nothinglike it.
You know this.
It's just, you know you have 40to 80 Ferraris behind you doing
their thing that they've spent,you know, 30, 40, 50 years
(22:40):
doing, and you're playing someof the greatest music.
I mean, like I've done a lot ofthose Joni Mitchell with
orchestra shows, vince Mendoza'scharts, which are just
mind-boggling and outstandingand so lush and beautiful.
A lot of jazz language in themtoo, obviously.
So I just I love that becauseit's really an atmosphere of
(23:01):
excellence.
You feel the collectivecommitment on stage to like this
thing.
That is music that we all justlove so deeply in our own ways.
But it's, it's humbling, it'snot.
That's why I love an orchestra.
It's not about what everyone'swearing, it's not about who
their famous friends are.
It's not about are they, youknow?
Is this the sort of popaesthetic du jour in music?
(23:24):
Is it like the sort of weirdproduction tricks du jour uh,
you know, of this year thateveryone's doing and that's why
all the records sound the same,right, right, like it has
nothing to do with that stuff.
It has everything to do withthe few parameters that you can
adjust and perfect in musicnotes, rhythm, expression and
(23:46):
articulation and dynamics, andthat's about it, and it's very,
it's pure.
It's very pure and yeah, I meanstanding.
I use a microphone because I'mnot an opera singer, obviously,
but it's that music is some ofmy favorite music in the world.
I've performed my own stuffwith orchestra too, which is is
a different headspace, becauseI'm always like shouldn't have
(24:09):
used bassoon there, like this is, the inner monologue is always
on, but yeah, there's nothinglike playing with an orchestra.
Elizabeth Bowman (24:17):
I think it also then brings us back to that
idea of this community.
It's so key when you go to hearan orchestra, a symphony, an
opera or whatever.
I think that that X factor thatis happening is when everyone
is on the same page, workingtogether and then creating that
energy that goes out to you.
(24:38):
So that's really like 90% ofthe experience.
Sarah Slean (24:41):
It gives me goosebumps even when you're
talking about it, because it'snot about any particular
individual in the orchestra,it's not about the conductor,
it's not even about the soprano,it's not about the soloist,
it's not about the set designer,it's not about any of those
individuals.
It's about this higher aim,this higher expression that
everyone is deeply committed to.
(25:03):
It's this offering of all ofthat excellence put together,
which I just find is like,really kind of like makes me
verklempt.
Right, you know, this is iswhat, this is what humans can do
when they work together, youknow.
Elizabeth Bowman (25:15):
Can I um ask you, do you ever suffer from
writer's block?
Sarah Slean (25:19):
oh god, yes oh god, oh long periods like agonizing.
Agonizing, yes, I do.
What's the solution?
Everybody's like what's thesound bite?
Okay, well, I I went through areally bad one this year.
I find that it's never aboutlike.
Creativity is a thing thathappens when the way is clear,
(25:42):
if I can speak like you know,guru.
When the way is clear, it isalways happening and it's just
like you take one and you takeanother one and oh, thank you,
you just dip your hand in theriver, right.
But when the way is not clear,you will go mad sitting in front
of your instrument, in front ofyour computer, just trying to
go come on, is it in there?
(26:03):
It's not in there.
If the way is not clear, how doyou make the way clear?
You can't deliberately do it.
You've got to go out into theforest and put the birdseed in
your hand and wait For me.
I mean, I've had such anguishedperiods of writer's block where
I literally start going what amI going to do instead of music,
looking to apply to differentjobs or give up, and I think
(26:23):
what ends up happening is when Ilook at my own body of work.
I write best when something inme has been metabolized or
shifted spiritually by life, bybeing, by relationships, by
struggle, by challenge all thesethings right or experiences in
(26:47):
nature that move something in me, that push the furniture around
in a different way, and Ireally do think that the reason
all that stuff starts to comewhen the shift has happened is
that art is part of the processof metabolizing what happens to
us, of taking the raw materialsthat life gives us the wounds,
(27:08):
the stress, the pressure of life, the stress, the pressure of
life and art helps to digest itand turn it into something else.
That doesn't happen on a nine tofive schedule.
And I just got to the pointwhere I accepted that I don't
make a project of my own withthat version of creativity every
(27:29):
two years.
And the beginning, when I wasyoung and I was on the treadmill
and I was, you know, I was justoverflowing with ideas and
things and it just came outquickly but it got.
They got longer and longer andlonger between projects as I got
older, because I would acceptthings in between.
I wouldn't force myself to makeanother record.
I would just be like I'm goingto do some clarinet trios for
(27:51):
the Irish trio, I'm going to dothis brass commission, I'm going
to do some rearranging ClaraSchumann for the NACO, I'm going
to, I'm going to do these otherthings which would exercise
other parts of my brain and mycreativity and would also unlock
me from my need to have thisoutput speak of me, speak of my
(28:14):
transformation be linked to thatsort of shifting and
metabolizing that I'm talkingabout.
I would compartmentalizecommissions, as this is skill,
this is exercise.
Yes, I'm being expressive.
Yes, melodies are arriving intomy life and I'm working with
them, but this was really handsin the clay.
(28:35):
It wasn't like spiritualtransformation, and I try to
think of my albums as I only dothem when something like that
has happened and that's why Ilook forward to them and if it
takes longer, so what?
Elizabeth Bowman (28:48):
That makes total sense, you know.
Funnily enough, like during thepandemic, which was horrific,
let's not go back there, let'snot.
But you know, I never, ever.
I mean, I trained as an operasinger and did my entire
training was in classical,everything, classical piano,
(29:09):
classical singing.
You know nothing whatever butthe the trauma of that pandemic,
with all the stages closed andno live music and all the
musicians struggling.
I ended up writing a lot ofsongs during the pandemic and
you know, when it ended, I havenothing.
(29:30):
It's like this box opened andthen, because of this shift and
yeah, you know, but it was sucha shift that it was like, yep, I
couldn't listen to classicalmusic during that time because
it was just too traumatic,because, yeah, that was always
my source of joy and all thethings, and I'm back and I'm
(29:51):
okay, I can listen, I can listenagain, but I also don't write
anything anymore.
It's just, it's just funny.
It's like there was this weirdperiod and all the songs I wrote
were like weird, like a folky,I love weird, but it's just.
I mean, yeah, I guess it totallymakes sense that the creative
process would be magnified andintensified by changes in your
(30:15):
life.
The way wasn't clear.
Sarah Slean (30:17):
The way was not clear, right, yeah, once we got
back, once the world got backonline.
I watched a very interestingdocumentary the other day called
Hypernormalization, and it wasabout as the Soviet empire was
crumbling.
All of the political leaderswere like deeply invested in
making the public think, no,everything's cool, all all as
well, and it's like I feel likepost pandemic that is.
(30:41):
That is what's happening.
We, everyone's trying to oh, no, it's all good, everything's
cool, like we're back to normal,we're back.
It's like what?
Yeah, like no.
That, as, as you say, it washighly traumatic and I think
that you know we are we'rebeings, we're nature, we are
(31:02):
nature.
Jackson pollock, I love thatquote when someone asked him
like oh, does nature inspire you?
And he's like I am nature, um,but we are, we're natural beings
and you cannot have somethingof such massive psychological
and spiritual impact simply belike thank you, very much done.
No, it's going to deeply impactour systems.
(31:25):
The digital transformation isdeeply impacting our systems too
.
I mean, I remember my brainpre-internet.
I remember my brain pre-iPhone,and I don't necessarily think
that these changes or shifts areterrible and just like blanket
put a bad sticker on it, but Ido think that we cannot pretend
that we're not nature, we cannotpretend that we're not
(31:47):
biological beings, number one,that are deeply like, inexorably
tied and interrelated,connected to not only each other
but to our environment, to theliving, breathing world around
us.
I always felt like technologykind of had this sort of
(32:09):
nefarious hope underneath everytransformation.
It was like one day we won'tdie, yes, yes, we will.
You too, busk, you're going todie, right.
Like it's just like this weird,weird denial of mortality and I
, I, I think like what a crazypsychology, what a what a
(32:33):
twisted world it would be if noone died.
And I don't mean just strictlyon a practical level, I mean on
a practical level, I mean on apsychological, spiritual level.
If, if, if there was no senseof an end, so so much would be
philosophically different,radically different.
Like the day-to-day experienceof living, would and and
(32:55):
struggling or whatever would,would make no sense to our, our
current minds, it would have nocontext, it would have no
meaning.
We are meaning-based beingsbecause we are mortal.
Yeah Right, like, anyways I'mdigressing massively but like,
why not?
It's Tuesday morning.
Elizabeth Bowman (33:14):
I exactly, Although I think I'm going to
put this out on a Thursdaymorning.
Sarah Slean (33:26):
Do you want to know what I did for my last round of
writer's block, where I wasjust like, oh my god, I have
absolutely nothing.
Yeah, I, I just whipped outsome old books of music that I
learned when I was a student,like the great conservatory or
whatever, or Beethovensymphonies transcribed, and I
just kind of walked through themand I found that I got out of
my frontal lobe.
Do you know what I mean?
I got out of like analyze, think, think, think, think, think.
(33:48):
And I went to that beautifulflow state where I was just
playing and I was just, I wasn'tthinking about the music, I was
just experiencing the music andplaying it and getting that
muscle memory back in my fingers.
And I did that, for I had to dothat for a few days and I had
to be like I'm just going toclose the computer and stop
(34:08):
worrying about this.
Because you know, as you get,as deadlines approach and you
know your days go by and time isso limited when you're our age,
especially when you have achild, that you're just like you
start to get frantic like oh myGod, oh's just.
Oh my god, what, what, if youknow?
And then it's a spirals.
You know, if you still sit atthe computer where you're in
(34:28):
that state, it's justdiminishing returns.
You have to close the computer,put down your instrument or
whatever and try to get in aflow state some other way.
Sometimes for me that's justlike you lie on your back with
your headphones on and listen toglenn gould play the gulper
variations 81 version.
You know like yeah eitherlistening or playing and it
(34:48):
helps me.
It just kind of greases thewheel and, yeah, it gets that
brain out of this gear and backinto a flow state which is just
utterly it's like night and dayright.
Elizabeth Bowman (35:00):
When I get into a state of writer's block
in a different way, because I'mnot writing any music, I often
will phone someone who inspiresme.
So, whether or not that persondoes anything to do with what
I'm doing, I will phone them andjust have a conversation with
them and I find thatbrainstorming just or talking
(35:24):
about the industry for instance,is in in what I do for a living
.
It's like a lot of times I'vegot to think about you know ways
to connect with new audiences,or you know ideas for a client
or a project or something, andso I'll phone someone who's
maybe in the industry and I'llbe like, so what's going on with
(35:46):
your audience?
And yeah, and then suddenlyI'll think I usually have a
patent paper and these peoplehave no idea what they're doing
for me.
So surprise, that's wonderful.
Sarah Slean (36:01):
I love it so surprised.
Elizabeth Bowman (36:07):
that's wonderful, I love it.
And then I'll usually have alot of thoughts by the end of
that conversation where I'vewritten down, you know, various,
various things that I couldexperiment with or and it's not
necessarily anything to do withthem, it's like it just opens
something up in me, yeah, so Ihighly recommend that.
And that also brings it back tothis whole idea of
collaboration and community andthe idea of really connecting
(36:30):
with those around you and 100%have you ever read that book?
Sarah Slean (36:34):
The War of Art, Steven Pressfield.
Elizabeth Bowman (36:37):
I actually haven't.
I've heard of it and it's on mylist, so I should definitely
read it next.
Sarah Slean (36:41):
He's an author, but he describes in exquisite
detail the experience of feelingblocked.
He calls it resistance.
Right, and this could apply toany, any discipline really,
where you have to sort ofgenerate.
And people ask me aboutwriter's block all the time and
I always talk about that bookbecause he's just like put your
(37:03):
butt in the chair and go andlike just spew, and eventually
you know he's just like there'snothing, nothing replaces you
know sitting and doing.
You know you can.
And Margaret Atwood actuallyonce I love this quote, I forget
I will butcher it, but she saidI would rather like wash dishes
than than sit down and write.
Like you can.
(37:24):
Your brain will come up with 3million other things to do than
the thing that you want most todo.
We talk about discipline in myclasses but again, like, I've
gotten to that point where Iforced myself to sit into the
chair, in the chair and it'sjust like torture, like nothing
comes.
I really think that when youuncouple, specifically for
(37:44):
musicians, when you uncoupleyour instrument and the sheer
enjoyment of music from thislike need to produce, then you
can return to that flow statewhich is essential for making
anything of value.
I had a friend who is nowproducing records in the States.
She used to live here and sheused to tour with me as a backup
(38:05):
singer and a keyboardist KarenKozlowski, she's doing
extraordinarily well inNashville and she used to say to
me you don't want to quit music.
Because I've wanted to quitmusic at least a thousand times
and she would say you don't wantto quit music, you need to
change your relationship to it.
I still think that is abrilliant piece of advice,
(38:26):
because when I get stuck, whenthe way is not clear, is usually
when I have packed onto musicall this other shit identity,
like the you know economy, likeyour income and living, and it
has to like you know, dance,monkey dance.
You know it has to do all thisstuff for you.
Elizabeth Bowman (38:47):
And you.
Sarah Slean (38:47):
Really, whenever I guest lecture creators, I say
protect that inner kernel that'sgot the flame or the light
going and we all know what I'mtalking about.
Right, you got to protect it.
Yes, it's magical.
Yes, it can earn you money.
Yes, it can really deeplyinform your identity.
Yes, it can connect you withlike-minded people.
(39:10):
It could be the core of yourcommunities.
It could be your livelihood,your passion, all these things.
But don't let it get torn apartby all of those competing
interests.
Protect that inner core, right.
And I think what I'm doing whenI sit down and play a Haydn
sonata that I haven't played in25 years, is I'm returning to
(39:34):
that core.
I'm putting a shell around itand going you can exist just
like this.
I don't need to record you andput you on TikTok, I don't need
to monetize you.
I don't need to do this infront of other people.
This is just.
I'm going to protect thislittle flame.
Elizabeth Bowman (39:53):
I realize I've seen Steven Pressfield on the
Rich Roll podcast, which is oneof my favorite podcasts, so you
know.
Sarah Slean (40:00):
God bless Rich Roll .
I know why doesn't he have ayoung single brother?
Why?
Elizabeth Bowman (40:07):
Yeah, go listen to the Rich Roll podcast
once you're done this one.
Sarah Slean (40:12):
He's the best.
I love him.
I love him.
Elizabeth Bowman (40:15):
Yeah, he's definitely an inspiration.
We should probably wrap this upsoon, but I would love to know
about your mentors.
There are so many.
Sarah Slean (40:23):
There are so many.
Well, I mean, I also I've beenself-managed since 2009.
So I've experienced kind of thegamut of music industry
existence.
I've had managers I still haveagents and reps in other
capacities but I've beenself-managed for the bulk of my
career now, and I mean doing allthe administrative stuff,
(40:43):
learning all the business side.
I'm a director on the board ofSOCAN now.
I've been for four years.
Thank you for your votes.
I really participate in thatside of things.
I really run my business, asyou do right, and there have
been many mentors female, mostof them female.
Shauna de cartier, who runs sixshooter records, built an
(41:06):
absolutely extraordinarybusiness that includes festivals
.
She reps all these amazingartists and she's just been ever
since I met her like a millionyears ago in the late 90s.
She's just been a badass.
She's just like always full ofideas and a person of
possibility.
She's always like why not?
And she a can-do kind of person, very, very inspiring, thinks
(41:29):
big.
And her partner, helen Britton,who's been one of my dear
friends for many, many years aswell.
She's extraordinary Leaders,right Like unabashed leaders.
John Goldsmith, as a composer,has been a lifelong mentor and
friend.
We regularly, when SelectBistro was in its heyday.
We would go there for dinner ona monthly basis and just have a
(41:51):
great old gab.
We're just like-minded soulstoo, like we sort of culturally
love the same things.
John Herberman I have had someprivate orchestration
instruction with John Herberman,who also does a lot of the
Ravel sessions in Toronto, whichare for extraordinary
orchestrators like Aaron Davisand Amin Bhatia, who I've worked
with as well.
(42:12):
.
Also mentors in the screencomposing world yeah, like most
of my music mentors have beenguys.
Yeah, but in the business Musicmentors have been guys.
Yeah, but in the business it'sbeen all women, interestingly
enough, and you've been guesthosting on CBC.
Elizabeth Bowman (42:27):
So how's that going, and are you still doing
that?
Sarah Slean (42:34):
I haven't done that in a few years.
I think they sort of experimentwith guest hosts and sort of
cycle them.
But they actually had me doDrive for a while and then they
had me do Shift, which has nowbecome.
Shift was sort of pop andclassical and now it's About
Time, which is only classicaland I love, love doing it
(42:55):
because it really intersectswith all the things that I'm
doing.
And when you have to write aradio script and you've got to
write really, really fast, youhave to do a blazing amount of
research in a short period oftime.
But it really just informs myscholarly work, it informs my
creative work.
It tips me off to composers Idon't know about.
(43:17):
It introduces me to more peoplein the classical community in
Canada like performers,particularly where I'm like, oh
my god, who is this player?
And then I find out and I findtheir work and it's just, it's,
it's a big piece of theecosystem in Canada.
So I I really love doing it andI love the people that are
doing it.
(43:37):
Isaac Page is making thoseplaylists now.
He's an extraordinary musicalmind.
So that that's just been a nicepiece in the overall bouquet of
things.
That all kind of overlap for me.
Elizabeth Bowman (43:49):
Have you ever done?
An episode of This Is my Music.
Sarah Slean (43:52):
Yes, I have.
In fact I think I've done two.
Amazing Malcolm, God bless him.
Yeah, and I love listening tothose of other people.
Love so fascinating.
You always find some new gem.
Yeah, that's a great show.
Elizabeth Bowman (44:06):
I'll leave a link to those shows wherever I'm
, where the links are.
Thank you for having thisconversation with me.
Thanks for coming to the sceneroom and very excited to have
you as actually my first guest.
Hi, I'm Elizabeth Bowman and welcome to
the Scene Room, where I amdiving deep into the business of
the performing arts, oneconversation at a time.
My inaugural guest is noneother than Sarah Slean, who is a
four-time Juno-nominated andtwo-time Gemini-nominated artist
(00:20):
.
She is a composer, a singer anda poet.
She does all the things.
Her influences span fromclassical to cabaret, to pop to
jazz.
She has a little bit ofeverything in her creative canon
.
I was so excited when sheagreed to have this conversation
(00:42):
with me, as I believe herinsights are really invaluable
to artists, fans alike.
So let's get started, Sarah.
Welcome to the scene room.
Sarah Slean (00:54):
Lizzie, thank you for having me.
Elizabeth Bowman (00:56):
This is really exciting.
We got to know each other alittle bit on the Black Flowers
tour.
Sarah Slean (01:01):
Oh my God, that was , it seems like so long ago,
2000 and something yeah, yeah,that must have been 2009.
Elizabeth Bowman (01:10):
10, yeah, something like that, something
like that.
And, for those listening, thatwas a project with the art of
time ensemble and AndrewBurashko, so that that was
really fun, and I knew youbeforehand from your music.
I had listened to your music,so this is really exciting.
I've always really admired you,especially for just like the
(01:33):
breadth of your creation, all ofthe influences in your music,
from classical to cabaret, popand you name it, whatever you
seem to see it comes out.
So that brings me to, I guess,my first question what was your
beginnings Like as a child, yourinteraction with music and
(01:55):
creation, or poetry?
What came first and where didyou come from?
Sarah Slean (02:00):
Who are you, you weird creature?
Yeah, I had a musical beginning, not unlike most musicians.
I feel like a lot of you knowpeople from my neck of the woods
.
You grew up and your parentstried to help you find something
that you enjoyed, and I hadearly music instruction.
That was the only thing I likedeverything.
(02:22):
No athletic gifts over here,zero.
I was just really interested.
It just fascinated me and Istudied piano all throughout
high school and elementaryschool, loved it.
It was solace, it was refuge,it was connected to something.
I think that's what a lot ofmusicians describe.
(02:43):
When music sort of capturesthem, it's like it reaches a
layer that kind of nothing elsereaches, gets in there, and I
loved that and I thought thatthere was some very significant
power in it, although you canarticulate those things at that
age.
But I went to university forpiano, oddly because I was, you
(03:06):
know, really, really into it atthe time, very dedicated.
But I was also writing songsand I didn't, you know, I had no
designs on becoming asongwriter or performer or
anything really, I just lovedplaying the piano.
So I studied with ChristinaPetroska for a year at York
University and that right aroundthat time I started playing in
(03:26):
clubs in the city, much to myparents horror, switched to U of
T to be closer to the venues,and then I got signed to
Atlantic and Warner and went ona 20 year journey of touring and
recording.
But yeah, I mean, as as a childbecoming interested in music,
my gateway was the music I wasstudying as a very small child.
(03:48):
You know that's when thelanguage of it, the sort of
parts, the DNA of music sort ofenter you and then as a teenager
you discover well, I discovereda lot of popular music.
But I mean at that beautifulage when you are still pure
enough to not be totally and Imean this is an age too before
(04:10):
iPhones, before the internet,right, there was enough
stillness of mind for me to bedrawn to purely what I was drawn
to.
So I would listen to the thirdsymphony, the symphony of
sorrowful songs, by or whoever.
I would listen to the Hilliardensemble, I would listen to Tori
(04:34):
Amos, I would listen toMozart's Requiem, I would listen
to all this stuff with no senseof allegiance to any of them,
no sense of like this means thisor none of the other baggage
that comes with what you listento.
And, oh, I prefer classicalmusic or I prefer etc.
Or I'm a punk kid or rock orwhatever.
There was no extra layer towhat I was drawn to musically
(04:58):
and I think that really, becauseI was fortunate enough to have
that very pure experience ofjust being drawn, it has sort of
kept me blind to genre andgiven me, I guess, a permission
to explore these other areaswhere some people are like I'm a
pop artist, I can't do that, Ican't work with orchestras, I
can't blah, blah, blah, you know, yeah, I love that, because a
(05:48):
lot of people are afraid to goto the opera, go to the symphony
, because they feel they have tosay a certain thing or react a
certain way and ultimately it'sjust about letting it wash over
you and taking the inspirationfrom what it is you're seeing.
And there's no right answer orwrong answer.
And we have to resist at allcosts the moneyed hijacking of
artistic expression, thecorporate hijacking of artistic
expression, like it does notbelong to a, a very, you know
the one percent.
It does not belong to them,even though they are the only
people that can buy and sellgreat works of art, etc.
Et cetera, like music is foreveryone, and I think we have to
resist those sort of culturalcues and the sort of you know
(06:14):
ivory tower messaging that weget about things like opera and
classical music, because if theyare going to remain relevant,
they need to speak to morepeople.
Elizabeth Bowman (06:25):
Definitely, and all the stories that are
told in most of the works areincredibly relatable and not
highbrow and not elitist asadvertised Exactly.
Sarah Slean (06:38):
I remember.
So I was so young, it was like2001 or 2002.
I forget I was, I was, I wasdoing my you know the requisite
backpack across Europe, kind ofthing.
You know.
I had broken up with aboyfriend and I was like soul
searching and I went all overEurope and I I saw I think it
was Salome in the opera house inVienna.
(07:01):
Way, way at the back, when youcan buy like the 10 euro ticket
and you stand for three hours.
Elizabeth Bowman (07:07):
But, I.
Sarah Slean (07:08):
that remains one of the most incredible, vibrant
artistic experiences I have everhad as a spectator, because
everyone was you know, reactingand everyone was unafraid to.
You know, it's not like we wereall decked out in furs and
diamonds, we were all back thereinto the story.
It was so exciting tocollectively feel with those
(07:31):
people, being so close, beingall standing, moving, breathing,
talking.
It was amazing.
Elizabeth Bowman (07:36):
Standing room tickets are the best.
Everyone they are really.
I mean you're in it together.
It's sort of an endurance sport.
Cycling back a little bit tothe development as an artist.
When we grew up, there was alot of this draw inside the
lines.
You are a specific kind ofartist.
You're a Baroque singer, you'rea pop artist, you're a jazz
(07:56):
artist.
You can't cross lines.
Thankfully, this philosophy ischanging and genuine creative
outlet is being respected, evenif it crosses genres.
So I'm curious about yourcareer as someone with such
diverse influences and howyou've navigated during those
(08:18):
times and to the present time.
Sarah Slean (08:21):
Yeah, I think a lot of it when I was young and I
was making my first recordingsand I I just knew what sounds I
wanted to hear.
I wanted to hear strings sobadly, I was so in love with
that sound and I would walkaround the foyer of U of T
looking for the right case andthen I would walk up to that
(08:43):
person and say, would you liketo be on a recording?
Like that is literally how Idid it and I think a lot of it
when I was young was just simplythe ignorance of youth.
Like I would write stringarrangements knowing absolutely
nothing about writing forstrings, learning as I went.
Yes, I was in school for music.
Yes, I was training, but I wasnever, I never received explicit
(09:05):
training on how to write astring arrangement, how to write
a string quartet, how to writean orchestral score.
Like that happened much, much,much later, after I had made so
many failed experiments right.
Like I listened to those earlyrecordings with, with string, my
string arrangements that Iwrote in my teens and early
twenties.
And you, I can literally hearover the progress of my body of
(09:27):
work, the language of it,changing and absorbing things
that work, rejecting things thatdon't work.
Starting to understand you knowwhat I mean Like, and I feel
like my seriously, I've.
I've got a master's in musicNow I have done so much formal
education in music and by farthe most instructive experience
(09:48):
has been to do it, To do it andget better.
By experience, you know, andI've been very fortunate enough
to hear the results of myexperiments.
So I would.
And again, the ignorance ofyouth.
Well, why can't I do those?
I'll just do it, and maybe thefirst three years you're doing
it.
They're all not that great, butI would get to hear them
(10:09):
because I would be performingwith the NACO and I'd say, can
we do three or four of myorchestral scores?
And Alain Trudel would be like,of course, and we do it.
And and then I would go, oh,this doesn't work here, this
needs to be different, theseguys should be doing this.
And you know, and I would justabsorb.
But yeah, in terms of likecrossing genre and and feeling
(10:33):
um allowed to, I didn't questionit.
It was the young, it was theignorance of youth.
It's this blessed thing likenow I experience much more
hesitation when I feel like I'vegot enough of a body of work in
classical, that I get asked, Iget commissions, I get asked to
do things.
But you know, when it comes tojazz, like I don't know that
(10:54):
language and some of it seeps in.
But now I know I havecolleagues who can be like, oh,
and I can write someone and theywill explain something to me.
You know, and all of these, allof the rich cultural heritage
that is out there, all of thesemusical languages, like there's,
there's so much.
The only worlds I'm feel I'mlike able to step into at this
(11:18):
point are the ones that I knowsomething about.
Elizabeth Bowman (11:22):
How old were you when you signed your first
record label?
Sarah Slean (11:26):
19 19.
Elizabeth Bowman (11:27):
Yeah, and was the who?
Which which record label was it?
Sarah Slean (11:31):
It was so this is an interesting time.
I think I signed up maybe I was20.
Yeah, I was 20.
I signed when I was 20.
I had made my own independentrecording called Universe this
was in 1997.
That's how old I am and I gotsigned and then they allowed me.
This was a time when there werehuge budgets and record labels
(11:51):
were very.
It was the old days.
They said, oh, you don't needto make your debut just yet.
Take two years, we'll fund it.
Make another independent record, which is just.
It doesn't happen anymore.
But they gave me some money andin 1998, I made and released
Blue Parade, which was my firstindependent recording.
And I didn't make the debut forAtlantic till another two years
(12:14):
, like 2000 was when I recordedthat album.
And that was Nightbugs, whichwas my official debut on that
label.
But right around that time thatturn of the decade was Napster
and digital media and the birthof all that label.
But right around that time,that turn of the decade was
Napster and digital media andthe birth of all that stuff.
So there was so much tumult andupheaval.
I recorded my album in upstateNew York, bearsville, very, very
(12:38):
celebrated studio.
Like a $300,000 US budget, likea $300,000 US budget.
Just like absolute, completeand utter insanity.
It's insanity.
I'm grateful I got toexperience that.
I mean, Hawksley Workman and Iwere driving a U-Haul down the
interstate with timpanis in theback.
It just doesn't make any sense.
But made that album.
(13:00):
Incredible experience with aworld-class facility,
world-class engineer, incrediblemusicians.
And then, like a year later,everyone I worked with at
Atlantic got fired and and TimeWarner bought AOL or AOL bought
Time Warner, something like thathappened and the whole house of
cards started to crumble.
(13:21):
And this is.
I watched in real time the, theeffect of digital media and I
mean it's even.
It's even more I don't want tosay catastrophic, that's not the
word more disruptive now right,streaming, spotify, all these
things.
It's just has been escalatingand escalating.
But yeah, that experience I wasso young and I you know.
(13:41):
You think when you get signedto a co-venture between an
American and a Canadian label,you're like this is it, this is
the big time lookout world.
And then, literally two yearslater, or however many years
later, like my record that Imade for them was not even
released in the States.
300 grand on it.
(14:05):
But here you go Sorry, we'renot going to put it out and
thankfully Warner loved it inCanada and they released it.
And then I started my Canadiancareer.
Elizabeth Bowman (14:10):
It's just wild .
What's going on with the musicindustry, with all of the
digital media, and it's evertransforming.
It's continuing to transform.
What would you advise emergingartists about their careers in
the current climate, Lizzie?
Sarah Slean (14:26):
this question kills me.
So I presently teach at auniversity here.
I teach at York University.
Teaching and mentorship hasalways been a big part of my
life too, because I trulyperhaps naively believe that art
has incredible social power andit's as nourishing as clean
(14:46):
water and clean air.
Like we, we need it, we make itall the time in every culture
on earth.
It is part of being human.
So I have immense faith that itwill always be here and it will
always have that transformativepower.
But I say to my students how canI advise you with my experience
of a world that bearsabsolutely no resemblance to the
(15:09):
world that you live in and willlive in?
Yes, there are universals.
Yes, there are nuggets of sortof unchanging human wisdom that
we can try to impart.
As an older colleague that'show I like to think of myself,
as you know, like an ally and anolder colleague I'm not judge
and arbiter and like A plus or Dminus.
But at the same time I just sayto them you know, like any
(15:32):
wisdom that I've gleaned thatwould be universal is a back pan
on an ever-changing, constantlychanging planet in constantly
changing industries, andparticularly in this time where
we see such a I'm just going tosay it baldly malevolent force
(15:55):
pulling resources, pulling,pulling, sucking, sucking
resources to the top and leavingeveryone else out to dry.
I think we're in an incrediblemoment in history where people
as you see, when any disasterstrikes, like LA, et cetera when
people become a community againof people that have mirror
neurons and experience empathyand can connect with each other
(16:19):
and behave quite nobly andbeautifully and honorably, that
is going to need to coalesce anderupt and I feel like that's
kind of what's underway.
So I we tend to talk about thisin my classes because I think
guys like if you feel this waybecause I mean there's a lot of
kids that feel the opposite waythey throw up their hands.
(16:40):
They're like Trump and Muskrule the world and I'm never
going to buy a house and screwit.
That's how they feel some ofthem.
But to the ones that arepassionate and still have all
that youthful energy and hope, Isay pour this into your work.
You are not great If you canplay the violin and the piano
(17:01):
faster, more precisely, morebeautifully than anyone in the
world awesome, that's amazingand valid and to be admired.
But if you are an artist thatfeels and is present in the
world and these thoughts andfeelings and worries, anxieties
and passion, all of that isinside you.
(17:22):
Put this into your work somehow, create, create, because I
really do believe that artistsare like imaginal cells that
they are.
Everybody loves to go like whocares?
Art is this extraneous, trivialthing that isn't also, if you
have the, the money to do it orwhatever, in your spare time
(17:42):
kind of thing and I disagree.
I think it's the exact opposite.
We are the people, creators,who are putting into the
collective imagination new ideasabout the way to live, to be,
new ideas about how to be Like.
That's what we need right now.
Right, we need to hear from allof those voices that we have
(18:05):
not heard from, that haveresulted in a world where
there's so much such amalevolent force.
Elizabeth Bowman (18:11):
I absolutely agree.
I think that I always try andbring things down to the lowest
common denominator, like interms of whenever I'm thinking
of a big problem and communityis the word.
Like amen as artists, you needto connect with a community, you
need to build a community andyou need to build that audience.
(18:32):
Like we need to get back toalmost like really early days,
like long before these bigbudgets and and whatever, where
people really did create the oldschool vibe.
We just need to haveperson-to-person connection, the
touring in small venues, andyou need to show up and it's
(18:53):
sort of that incremental workeach day, a little bit each day,
and grow your community fromthat and using I mean, I'm a
digital media person, that's myspecialty, with, obviously, the
singing background, but thoseemail lists are invaluable and
speaking to people, like peopleand not like you're a big
(19:13):
corporation, because I feel likeartists, like the whole game
has been lost in this sort oftornado of big business.
Sarah Slean (19:23):
Absolutely.
I feel like the whole world hasbeen lost in the tornado of big
business.
Well said, right Like we,because when it comes down to it
, I feel like LA is a perfectexample.
When it comes down to it,however you feel about that,
it's tragic that people havelost their homes and or lives in
some cases, but when thosethings happen, who comes to the
(19:43):
rescue?
I mean, we're all up in armslike that government, hasn't?
People, your neighbors, thepeople that are that live in
your town.
Elizabeth Bowman (19:53):
So can I ask you a little bit about your
creative process, because you doperform with symphonies and
chamber ensembles and also withyourself and your band.
I'm performing myself.
You know.
I mean there's a lot ofdifferent Sarah Sleens out there
.
What's the difference?
Like, how do you feelcreatively when you're
(20:15):
performing in these differentenvironments?
Like, what would you pinpointas sort of the experience for
you?
Sarah Slean (20:34):
solo tours, which is, you know, a whole other
experience, and I haven't donethat in so long that I think if
I was asked to do it now Iprobably would be too afraid
Just putting that out there,which I may do in October of
this year.
I've performed with bands, butthat whole period where I was
touring very heavily from 2000to about 2018, like almost 20
years of constant touring,constant touring, international
(20:54):
touring I'd say my favorite isaround that time was the
ensemble we landed with for Landand Sea, the album.
That was two albums One was thepop that I had become known for
and then Sea was this trueexpression of that, my deep
interest in strings andorchestral writing.
That had really come to floweron that record.
(21:15):
Land and Sea.
That was the maybe like.
I look at that as kind of aturning point, that project
where I was like this is where Iwant to go See, like it was a
21 piece orchestra of total rockstar classical players in
Toronto, my sort of lyricalsongs, but set to string
orchestra.
I mean it was a dream come true.
I had written four of thecharts and John Goldsmith, my
(21:38):
longtime mentor and colleague,had written the other three and
he was producing and I was justlike this is, I couldn't believe
that it had actually happenedin the flesh number one but
because I was on a smallboutique label too, like how is
this happening?
But it really cemented for methat that was where my
(21:58):
intellectual and spiritualinterest lay and that was going
to be the next phase of mycareer, because it just was
challenging.
You know, like I'd I'd donelots of band stuff and I was
kind of I didn't feel like Icould expand any further in that
and say anything different, youknow, and the, the orchestra
just captured me.
(22:18):
I'd say my favorite now in this, that sort of second chapter
from, say, 2012 onward, is toperform with an orchestra.
I mean, there's really nothinglike it.
You know this.
It's just, you know you have 40to 80 Ferraris behind you doing
their thing that they've spent,you know, 30, 40, 50 years
(22:40):
doing, and you're playing someof the greatest music.
I mean, like I've done a lot ofthose Joni Mitchell with
orchestra shows, vince Mendoza'scharts, which are just
mind-boggling and outstandingand so lush and beautiful.
A lot of jazz language in themtoo, obviously.
So I just I love that becauseit's really an atmosphere of
(23:01):
excellence.
You feel the collectivecommitment on stage to like this
thing.
That is music that we all justlove so deeply in our own ways.
But it's, it's humbling, it'snot.
That's why I love an orchestra.
It's not about what everyone'swearing, it's not about who
their famous friends are.
It's not about are they, youknow?
Is this the sort of popaesthetic du jour in music?
(23:24):
Is it like the sort of weirdproduction tricks du jour uh,
you know, of this year thateveryone's doing and that's why
all the records sound the same,right, right, like it has
nothing to do with that stuff.
It has everything to do withthe few parameters that you can
adjust and perfect in musicnotes, rhythm, expression and
(23:46):
articulation and dynamics, andthat's about it, and it's very,
it's pure.
It's very pure and yeah, I meanstanding.
I use a microphone because I'mnot an opera singer, obviously,
but it's that music is some ofmy favorite music in the world.
I've performed my own stuffwith orchestra too, which is is
a different headspace, becauseI'm always like shouldn't have
(24:09):
used bassoon there, like this is, the inner monologue is always
on, but yeah, there's nothinglike playing with an orchestra.
Elizabeth Bowman (24:17):
I think it also then brings us back to that
idea of this community.
It's so key when you go to hearan orchestra, a symphony, an
opera or whatever.
I think that that X factor thatis happening is when everyone
is on the same page, workingtogether and then creating that
energy that goes out to you.
(24:38):
So that's really like 90% ofthe experience.
Sarah Slean (24:41):
It gives me goosebumps even when you're
talking about it, because it'snot about any particular
individual in the orchestra,it's not about the conductor,
it's not even about the soprano,it's not about the soloist,
it's not about the set designer,it's not about any of those
individuals.
It's about this higher aim,this higher expression that
everyone is deeply committed to.
(25:03):
It's this offering of all ofthat excellence put together,
which I just find is like,really kind of like makes me
verklempt.
Right, you know, this is iswhat, this is what humans can do
when they work together, youknow.
Elizabeth Bowman (25:15):
Can I um ask you, do you ever suffer from
writer's block?
Sarah Slean (25:19):
oh god, yes oh god, oh long periods like agonizing.
Agonizing, yes, I do.
What's the solution?
Everybody's like what's thesound bite?
Okay, well, I I went through areally bad one this year.
I find that it's never aboutlike.
Creativity is a thing thathappens when the way is clear,
(25:42):
if I can speak like you know,guru.
When the way is clear, it isalways happening and it's just
like you take one and you takeanother one and oh, thank you,
you just dip your hand in theriver, right.
But when the way is not clear,you will go mad sitting in front
of your instrument, in front ofyour computer, just trying to
go come on, is it in there?
(26:03):
It's not in there.
If the way is not clear, how doyou make the way clear?
You can't deliberately do it.
You've got to go out into theforest and put the birdseed in
your hand and wait For me.
I mean, I've had such anguishedperiods of writer's block where
I literally start going what amI going to do instead of music,
looking to apply to differentjobs or give up, and I think
(26:23):
what ends up happening is when Ilook at my own body of work.
I write best when something inme has been metabolized or
shifted spiritually by life, bybeing, by relationships, by
struggle, by challenge all thesethings right or experiences in
(26:47):
nature that move something in me, that push the furniture around
in a different way, and Ireally do think that the reason
all that stuff starts to comewhen the shift has happened is
that art is part of the processof metabolizing what happens to
us, of taking the raw materialsthat life gives us the wounds,
(27:08):
the stress, the pressure of life, the stress, the pressure of
life and art helps to digest itand turn it into something else.
That doesn't happen on a nine tofive schedule.
And I just got to the pointwhere I accepted that I don't
make a project of my own withthat version of creativity every
(27:29):
two years.
And the beginning, when I wasyoung and I was on the treadmill
and I was, you know, I was justoverflowing with ideas and
things and it just came outquickly but it got.
They got longer and longer andlonger between projects as I got
older, because I would acceptthings in between.
I wouldn't force myself to makeanother record.
I would just be like I'm goingto do some clarinet trios for
(27:51):
the Irish trio, I'm going to dothis brass commission, I'm going
to do some rearranging ClaraSchumann for the NACO, I'm going
to, I'm going to do these otherthings which would exercise
other parts of my brain and mycreativity and would also unlock
me from my need to have thisoutput speak of me, speak of my
(28:14):
transformation be linked to thatsort of shifting and
metabolizing that I'm talkingabout.
I would compartmentalizecommissions, as this is skill,
this is exercise.
Yes, I'm being expressive.
Yes, melodies are arriving intomy life and I'm working with
them, but this was really handsin the clay.
(28:35):
It wasn't like spiritualtransformation, and I try to
think of my albums as I only dothem when something like that
has happened and that's why Ilook forward to them and if it
takes longer, so what?
Elizabeth Bowman (28:48):
That makes total sense, you know.
Funnily enough, like during thepandemic, which was horrific,
let's not go back there, let'snot.
But you know, I never, ever.
I mean, I trained as an operasinger and did my entire
training was in classical,everything, classical piano,
(29:09):
classical singing.
You know nothing whatever butthe the trauma of that pandemic,
with all the stages closed andno live music and all the
musicians struggling.
I ended up writing a lot ofsongs during the pandemic and
you know, when it ended, I havenothing.
(29:30):
It's like this box opened andthen, because of this shift and
yeah, you know, but it was sucha shift that it was like, yep, I
couldn't listen to classicalmusic during that time because
it was just too traumatic,because, yeah, that was always
my source of joy and all thethings, and I'm back and I'm
(29:51):
okay, I can listen, I can listenagain, but I also don't write
anything anymore.
It's just, it's just funny.
It's like there was this weirdperiod and all the songs I wrote
were like weird, like a folky,I love weird, but it's just.
I mean, yeah, I guess it totallymakes sense that the creative
process would be magnified andintensified by changes in your
(30:15):
life.
The way wasn't clear.
Sarah Slean (30:17):
The way was not clear, right, yeah, once we got
back, once the world got backonline.
I watched a very interestingdocumentary the other day called
Hypernormalization, and it wasabout as the Soviet empire was
crumbling.
All of the political leaderswere like deeply invested in
making the public think, no,everything's cool, all all as
well, and it's like I feel likepost pandemic that is.
(30:41):
That is what's happening.
We, everyone's trying to oh, no, it's all good, everything's
cool, like we're back to normal,we're back.
It's like what?
Yeah, like no.
That, as, as you say, it washighly traumatic and I think
that you know we are we'rebeings, we're nature, we are
(31:02):
nature.
Jackson pollock, I love thatquote when someone asked him
like oh, does nature inspire you?
And he's like I am nature, um,but we are, we're natural beings
and you cannot have somethingof such massive psychological
and spiritual impact simply belike thank you, very much done.
No, it's going to deeply impactour systems.
(31:25):
The digital transformation isdeeply impacting our systems too
.
I mean, I remember my brainpre-internet.
I remember my brain pre-iPhone,and I don't necessarily think
that these changes or shifts areterrible and just like blanket
put a bad sticker on it, but Ido think that we cannot pretend
that we're not nature, we cannotpretend that we're not
(31:47):
biological beings, number one,that are deeply like, inexorably
tied and interrelated,connected to not only each other
but to our environment, to theliving, breathing world around
us.
I always felt like technologykind of had this sort of
(32:09):
nefarious hope underneath everytransformation.
It was like one day we won'tdie, yes, yes, we will.
You too, busk, you're going todie, right.
Like it's just like this weird,weird denial of mortality and I
, I, I think like what a crazypsychology, what a what a
(32:33):
twisted world it would be if noone died.
And I don't mean just strictlyon a practical level, I mean on
a practical level, I mean on apsychological, spiritual level.
If, if, if there was no senseof an end, so so much would be
philosophically different,radically different.
Like the day-to-day experienceof living, would and and
(32:55):
struggling or whatever would,would make no sense to our, our
current minds, it would have nocontext, it would have no
meaning.
We are meaning-based beingsbecause we are mortal.
Yeah Right, like, anyways I'mdigressing massively but like,
why not?
It's Tuesday morning.
Elizabeth Bowman (33:14):
I exactly, Although I think I'm going to
put this out on a Thursdaymorning.
Sarah Slean (33:26):
Do you want to know what I did for my last round of
writer's block, where I wasjust like, oh my god, I have
absolutely nothing.
Yeah, I, I just whipped outsome old books of music that I
learned when I was a student,like the great conservatory or
whatever, or Beethovensymphonies transcribed, and I
just kind of walked through themand I found that I got out of
my frontal lobe.
Do you know what I mean?
I got out of like analyze, think, think, think, think, think.
(33:48):
And I went to that beautifulflow state where I was just
playing and I was just, I wasn'tthinking about the music, I was
just experiencing the music andplaying it and getting that
muscle memory back in my fingers.
And I did that, for I had to dothat for a few days and I had
to be like I'm just going toclose the computer and stop
(34:08):
worrying about this.
Because you know, as you get,as deadlines approach and you
know your days go by and time isso limited when you're our age,
especially when you have achild, that you're just like you
start to get frantic like oh myGod, oh's just.
Oh my god, what, what, if youknow?
And then it's a spirals.
You know, if you still sit atthe computer where you're in
(34:28):
that state, it's justdiminishing returns.
You have to close the computer,put down your instrument or
whatever and try to get in aflow state some other way.
Sometimes for me that's justlike you lie on your back with
your headphones on and listen toglenn gould play the gulper
variations 81 version.
You know like yeah eitherlistening or playing and it
(34:48):
helps me.
It just kind of greases thewheel and, yeah, it gets that
brain out of this gear and backinto a flow state which is just
utterly it's like night and dayright.
Elizabeth Bowman (35:00):
When I get into a state of writer's block
in a different way, because I'mnot writing any music, I often
will phone someone who inspiresme.
So, whether or not that persondoes anything to do with what
I'm doing, I will phone them andjust have a conversation with
them and I find thatbrainstorming just or talking
(35:24):
about the industry for instance,is in in what I do for a living
.
It's like a lot of times I'vegot to think about you know ways
to connect with new audiences,or you know ideas for a client
or a project or something, andso I'll phone someone who's
maybe in the industry and I'llbe like, so what's going on with
(35:46):
your audience?
And yeah, and then suddenlyI'll think I usually have a
patent paper and these peoplehave no idea what they're doing
for me.
So surprise, that's wonderful.
Sarah Slean (36:01):
I love it so surprised.
Elizabeth Bowman (36:07):
that's wonderful, I love it.
And then I'll usually have alot of thoughts by the end of
that conversation where I'vewritten down, you know, various,
various things that I couldexperiment with or and it's not
necessarily anything to do withthem, it's like it just opens
something up in me, yeah, so Ihighly recommend that.
And that also brings it back tothis whole idea of
collaboration and community andthe idea of really connecting
(36:30):
with those around you and 100%have you ever read that book?
Sarah Slean (36:34):
The War of Art, Steven Pressfield.
Elizabeth Bowman (36:37):
I actually haven't.
I've heard of it and it's on mylist, so I should definitely
read it next.
Sarah Slean (36:41):
He's an author, but he describes in exquisite
detail the experience of feelingblocked.
He calls it resistance.
Right, and this could apply toany, any discipline really,
where you have to sort ofgenerate.
And people ask me aboutwriter's block all the time and
I always talk about that bookbecause he's just like put your
(37:03):
butt in the chair and go andlike just spew, and eventually
you know he's just like there'snothing, nothing replaces you
know sitting and doing.
You know you can.
And Margaret Atwood actuallyonce I love this quote, I forget
I will butcher it, but she saidI would rather like wash dishes
than than sit down and write.
Like you can.
(37:24):
Your brain will come up with 3million other things to do than
the thing that you want most todo.
We talk about discipline in myclasses but again, like, I've
gotten to that point where Iforced myself to sit into the
chair, in the chair and it'sjust like torture, like nothing
comes.
I really think that when youuncouple, specifically for
(37:44):
musicians, when you uncoupleyour instrument and the sheer
enjoyment of music from thislike need to produce, then you
can return to that flow statewhich is essential for making
anything of value.
I had a friend who is nowproducing records in the States.
She used to live here and sheused to tour with me as a backup
(38:05):
singer and a keyboardist KarenKozlowski, she's doing
extraordinarily well inNashville and she used to say to
me you don't want to quit music.
Because I've wanted to quitmusic at least a thousand times
and she would say you don't wantto quit music, you need to
change your relationship to it.
I still think that is abrilliant piece of advice,
(38:26):
because when I get stuck, whenthe way is not clear, is usually
when I have packed onto musicall this other shit identity,
like the you know economy, likeyour income and living, and it
has to like you know, dance,monkey dance.
You know it has to do all thisstuff for you.
Elizabeth Bowman (38:47):
And you.
Sarah Slean (38:47):
Really, whenever I guest lecture creators, I say
protect that inner kernel that'sgot the flame or the light
going and we all know what I'mtalking about.
Right, you got to protect it.
Yes, it's magical.
Yes, it can earn you money.
Yes, it can really deeplyinform your identity.
Yes, it can connect you withlike-minded people.
(39:10):
It could be the core of yourcommunities.
It could be your livelihood,your passion, all these things.
But don't let it get torn apartby all of those competing
interests.
Protect that inner core, right.
And I think what I'm doing whenI sit down and play a Haydn
sonata that I haven't played in25 years, is I'm returning to
(39:34):
that core.
I'm putting a shell around itand going you can exist just
like this.
I don't need to record you andput you on TikTok, I don't need
to monetize you.
I don't need to do this infront of other people.
This is just.
I'm going to protect thislittle flame.
Elizabeth Bowman (39:53):
I realize I've seen Steven Pressfield on the
Rich Roll podcast, which is oneof my favorite podcasts, so you
know.
Sarah Slean (40:00):
God bless Rich Roll .
I know why doesn't he have ayoung single brother?
Why?
Elizabeth Bowman (40:07):
Yeah, go listen to the Rich Roll podcast
once you're done this one.
Sarah Slean (40:12):
He's the best.
I love him.
I love him.
Elizabeth Bowman (40:15):
Yeah, he's definitely an inspiration.
We should probably wrap this upsoon, but I would love to know
about your mentors.
There are so many.
Sarah Slean (40:23):
There are so many.
Well, I mean, I also I've beenself-managed since 2009.
So I've experienced kind of thegamut of music industry
existence.
I've had managers I still haveagents and reps in other
capacities but I've beenself-managed for the bulk of my
career now, and I mean doing allthe administrative stuff,
(40:43):
learning all the business side.
I'm a director on the board ofSOCAN now.
I've been for four years.
Thank you for your votes.
I really participate in thatside of things.
I really run my business, asyou do right, and there have
been many mentors female, mostof them female.
Shauna de cartier, who runs sixshooter records, built an
(41:06):
absolutely extraordinarybusiness that includes festivals
.
She reps all these amazingartists and she's just been ever
since I met her like a millionyears ago in the late 90s.
She's just been a badass.
She's just like always full ofideas and a person of
possibility.
She's always like why not?
And she a can-do kind of person, very, very inspiring, thinks
(41:29):
big.
And her partner, helen Britton,who's been one of my dear
friends for many, many years aswell.
She's extraordinary Leaders,right Like unabashed leaders.
John Goldsmith, as a composer,has been a lifelong mentor and
friend.
We regularly, when SelectBistro was in its heyday.
We would go there for dinner ona monthly basis and just have a
(41:51):
great old gab.
We're just like-minded soulstoo, like we sort of culturally
love the same things.
John Herberman I have had someprivate orchestration
instruction with John Herberman,who also does a lot of the
Ravel sessions in Toronto, whichare for extraordinary
orchestrators like Aaron Davisand Amin Bhatia, who I've worked
with as well.
(42:12):
.
Also mentors in the screencomposing world yeah, like most
of my music mentors have beenguys.
Yeah, but in the business Musicmentors have been guys.
Yeah, but in the business it'sbeen all women, interestingly
enough, and you've been guesthosting on CBC.
Elizabeth Bowman (42:27):
So how's that going, and are you still doing
that?
Sarah Slean (42:34):
I haven't done that in a few years.
I think they sort of experimentwith guest hosts and sort of
cycle them.
But they actually had me doDrive for a while and then they
had me do Shift, which has nowbecome.
Shift was sort of pop andclassical and now it's About
Time, which is only classicaland I love, love doing it
(42:55):
because it really intersectswith all the things that I'm
doing.
And when you have to write aradio script and you've got to
write really, really fast, youhave to do a blazing amount of
research in a short period oftime.
But it really just informs myscholarly work, it informs my
creative work.
It tips me off to composers Idon't know about.
(43:17):
It introduces me to more peoplein the classical community in
Canada like performers,particularly where I'm like, oh
my god, who is this player?
And then I find out and I findtheir work and it's just, it's,
it's a big piece of theecosystem in Canada.
So I I really love doing it andI love the people that are
doing it.
(43:37):
Isaac Page is making thoseplaylists now.
He's an extraordinary musicalmind.
So that that's just been a nicepiece in the overall bouquet of
things.
That all kind of overlap for me.
Elizabeth Bowman (43:49):
Have you ever done?
An episode of This Is my Music.
Sarah Slean (43:52):
Yes, I have.
In fact I think I've done two.
Amazing Malcolm, God bless him.
Yeah, and I love listening tothose of other people.
Love so fascinating.
You always find some new gem.
Yeah, that's a great show.
Elizabeth Bowman (44:06):
I'll leave a link to those shows wherever I'm
, where the links are.
Thank you for having thisconversation with me.
Thanks for coming to the sceneroom and very excited to have
you as actually my first guest.
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