January 29, 2025 • 25 mins
In this episode, Elizabeth Bowman sits down with Joel Ivany, the visionary Artistic Director of Edmonton Opera and Director of Opera at the Banff Centre for Arts and Creativity. Joel shares his passion for community outreach and engagement, focusing on how opera can continue to resonate with new audiences.
They explore the evolving landscape of audience retention, emphasizing how surveys and feedback can help transform casual attendees into lifelong opera enthusiasts. Could Augmented Reality play a role in making opera more accessible? Joel and Elizabeth imagine iconic opera scenes brought to life in unexpected places—picture experiencing a live aria in a remote village, all through AR.
The conversation also delves into the balance between opera’s rich, centuries-old traditions and the technological innovations that could shape its future. Moments of rest and reflection, Joel believes, can spark groundbreaking ideas that challenge the way we experience and connect with art.
Mentioned in this podcast: Opera Canada's The Opera Glasses Podcast can be listened to here https://operaglasses.buzzsprout.com/
The Augmented Reality Example talked about was made by Darabase https://www.linkedin.com/posts/darabase_ar-spatialweb-outofhome-activity-7276916102150991872-9yko
All episodes are also available in video form on our YouTube Channel. All episodes are hosted by Elizabeth (Lizzie) Bowman.
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Don't hesitate to reach out to us with guest ideas, information you'd like covered, or any ideas you might have—the hope is for this to be a continuous resource and dialogue with our listeners.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Elizabeth Bowman (00:00):
Hi, I'm Elizabeth Bowman and welcome to
the Scene Room.
Today I have Joel Ivany here.
He is the Artistic Director ofEdmonton Opera in Canada.
He's also the Artistic Directorof Opera at the Banff Centre
for Arts and Creativity.
He is the founder of Againstthe Grain Theatre in Toronto and
(00:23):
he always has reallyinteresting things to say.
I'm so pleased that he agreedto come and have this
conversation with me.
Joel, welcome to the scene room.
Thanks so much for coming.
Joel Ivany (00:36):
Lizzie, it's great to be in the scene room.
Thanks for the invite.
Looking forward to this.
Elizabeth Bowman (00:40):
We talked on my previous podcast, the Opera
Glasses podcast, which is stillgoing, hosted by the new editor,
Michael Jones, so you guys can,after you're done with this,
maybe go check that out.
Yes, but it's really great totalk to you again and I wanted
to really focus this episodesince you're now settled in
(01:01):
Edmonton.
For how long have you beenthere now?
Joel Ivany (01:03):
This is my fourth into the fourth year.
Elizabeth Bowman (01:07):
Right.
So the reason why I wanted toask you, as a settled artistic
director in Edmonton, is youhave a new audience base that is
different than the Toronto onethat you explored, and I wanted
to dive in there and see whatyou've been experiencing there
with your artistic vision,marketing, audience engagement
(01:30):
and all that good stuff.
Let's just dive right in.
What strategies have you foundmost effective in capturing new
audiences?
And I guess the audienceentirely was new to you, so tell
us a little bit about that.
Joel Ivany (01:43):
So some of it is very simple in terms of just
like.
What I found shocking in someways is that people in Edmonton
many still did not even knowthat Edmonton had an opera
company.
So meaning, like I met someoneyesterday who associated opera
with Paris, with London, likesort of the biggest of the most
(02:03):
European grandness of what operais for a lot of people and what
is still, but that theycouldn't necessarily fathom that
it could be something in thecity that they live in, which is
Edmonton.
And you know we're immersed ina community and colleagues and
friends that have, you know wethink opera, we think classical
music kind of all day.
(02:23):
So it's easy to kind of forgetthat not everyone thinks that
way.
So I think there's somethingvery simple in whether that is
billboards, whether that is inour print media, whether that is
in you know, we do radio adshere.
You have to drive around a lotin Edmonton, a little bit more
(02:44):
than the public transit inToronto.
So it's kind of what ispeople's reception on what they
hear when they hear the wordopera and so what are we
attaching to them?
So when you say strategies likedebunking a little bit of what
opera is in terms of saying itis not, elite saying it is.
So again, all those innovativebuzzwords, accessible for
(03:04):
everyone, relatable currentissues today, and it can also be
the paris stuff as well haveyou raised your community
engagement projects?
Elizabeth Bowman (03:16):
are you out in the community?
Do you find that that helps?
Joel Ivany (03:19):
yes, a big thing that in toronto I didn't
necessarily always see the operaon television as well, whereas
it seems like more in thesesmaller cities.
In Toronto it's a lot easier toget on television, to have
these television stations whichI don't know Again.
I think a certain demographicare still watching TV stations.
(03:39):
Obviously there's also acertain demographic that you're
also streaming.
So it's kind of those aredifferent platforms and
different ways that we access.
But getting out to thecommunity, having a touch point
to just say hey, we're here, notyou just have to come to us,
but we're also going to go outto you, is something that we, I
think, have to do.
Elizabeth Bowman (03:59):
And you obviously started doing a lot of
that community engagementthrough your against the Grain
work.
Have you brought any of thoseideas to Edmonton?
Have you repeated anything thathas been effective for you?
Joel Ivany (04:12):
One thing that we do , which has its own kind of
following and audience, is we doour opera.
So that's like one where once amonth we are singing
traditional opera and alsomusical theater, some art song
like it's not the same formulaevery month, but we go into
traditional opera and alsomusical theater, some art song
Like it's not the same formulaevery month, but we go into a
bar and we sing and it's packedevery single time.
(04:33):
We do it once a month, and sofor some people they are not
seasoned subscribers or regularattendees at the larger operas,
but they do not miss an operapub, but they do not miss an
opera pub, and so I can'tcomplain that that is giving
opera to our communities andalso sharing what Edmonton Opera
is doing out there.
And if we stop doing that,would they show up to the opera?
(04:56):
Probably not, but so what thenis opera to an individual?
Elizabeth Bowman (05:02):
Can I ask do you have any data that backs up
the people who have experiencedthe opera pubs, who then go to
the opera and who are thenrepeatedly going to the opera?
So audience retention.
Joel Ivany (05:17):
Do I have data?
No, does it exist?
I'm sure it does.
So if you're interested inwanting to kind of come and do
residency with Edmonton Opera,hey, we welcome that.
I think it's there andcapturable.
But that's exactly the type ofthings which a lot of times we
just don't have capacity but Ithink could be things that could
(05:38):
really unlock a new strategy.
We're so caught up in doingwhat was instead of trying what
can be.
Elizabeth Bowman (05:45):
I think there's some information online
that I've read that talks abouthow a lot of people go to operas
for the first time but thendon't repeat the experience.
Yeah, and you know, I find thatthat's sort of fascinating.
So audience retention isobviously a big issue in our
industry.
Fascinating.
So audience retention isobviously a big issue in our
(06:05):
industry and I feel like you'redoing such a great job engaging
with the community, which has toultimately help.
Even if you don't have thenumbers to back it up, I think
that if you did do a survey, youwould find that that makes a
huge difference.
Joel Ivany (06:20):
And that's actually a great survey.
And that could be one of theways we do these surveys through
our emails, which give backincredible feedback which we can
then implement change and somaybe, yeah, that's just
triggering a good somehow, yeah,we'll pull our next audience or
somehow include that in one ofour surveys.
You got to get them, you got toentice them to.
(06:42):
They're not the sexiest fillout or survey, but when you do,
you get good information.
Elizabeth Bowman (06:48):
It is what it is.
It's the sort of necessary evilwithin the marketing and
planning, artistic planningworld.
I want to tell the audience alittle bit of a story about.
I guess I took a break fromOpera Canada.
Well, I didn.
I took a break from OperaCanada.
Well, I didn't take a break.
I concluded my time with OperaCanada and then was taking a
(07:09):
break from all professionalthings, and I reached out to you
because I saw a LinkedIn postabout augmented reality
Halloween decorations.
Yes yes, and I thought, oh mygoodness, I need to go, I need
(07:38):
to call Joel and see what hethinks about yes, yes, I think
we came up with some really goodideas.
So I thought, even though wehaven't executed any of these
things, I thought it was worthsort of exploring this on this
podcast episode.
Joel Ivany (07:50):
Like we are using technology now right, Like to do
this.
So it's kind of it's an amazingway to share information.
So it's kind of, in some ways,we are so archaic in how we
implement art, which isbeautiful and nostalgic, but we
also have to move things alongand use the tools that are
available to let the art evolveat the same time.
Elizabeth Bowman (08:10):
I think that with augmented reality, everyone
who's listening, like they havethe technology now to basically
you could take your phone andpoint it at a building and there
could be a champagne party onthe roof and huge bottles of
champagne pouring everywhere.
It could be an advertisementfor Die Fledermaus , you know,
(08:32):
which is obviously an operabased around a ballroom and
scene.
We were talking aboutrecreating Cafe Momus from La
Boheme in multiple cities aroundthe world and doing a virtual
installation, and they have allthis technology where you can
(08:53):
actually engage with thecharacters in these
installations so you could talkto them, you could input AI
personalities into all of themand then learn about when the
opera was made, what thecharacter was thinking, the
setting, a whole lot of stuff orwhat am I trying to say?
Joel Ivany (09:13):
How many people in North America actually possess a
cell phone?
Like we are all carrying aroundthese super mini computers?
Elizabeth Bowman (09:32):
So that is already removing one of the
major barriers right there, andI know that Edmonton Opera is
big on getting out to remoteplaces.
I know you guys were just in.
Joel Ivany (09:39):
Whitehorse.
Yeah, exactly, exactly.
Elizabeth Bowman (09:42):
Yeah, I'm not sure what you were doing, but I
just saw it across my feed andthought, oh, that's so great.
But these sort of augmentedreality installations where, for
instance, you could have all ofAct Two of La Boheme, could be
in a remote place that doesn'tnecessarily have access to that
kind of talent or that kind ofproduction and people could
(10:06):
experience it there.
That's the thing.
Joel Ivany (10:09):
Like we had one conversation with a community
that has an opera company andthey're like oh, I don't know if
we can bring in that setbecause literally the the road
to our community is so dangerous, like we either build it here
or like you can fly it in andlike fold everything.
So it's kind of imagine if youcould say oh, like we can give
(10:31):
you a million dollar production,like we'll give you act two of
love om, with like an incredibleorchestra, a great cast of
singers, and all you need isyour phone.
Like who, who wouldn't do?
Do that?
Elizabeth Bowman (10:44):
There's definitely a level of
accessibility to this idea andobviously there's aspects of
this that you know would need tobe worked out legally, you know
, because the creative would betraveling around, everyone would
have to be compensated forhowever many times that
production went to whateverplace, and it would have to be
(11:05):
set up for that place.
So it's not like it would be afree thing, but it's certainly
an option.
If you have a set problem, youcould have the live singers
there and basically it would belike a green screen for them.
Joel Ivany (11:18):
That's the thing with technology, Like it's so
you can do so much and so manydifferent possibilities.
And in my experience with anykind of work with AR, with VR,
like 95% of the work is thoseheroes behind a computer who are
turning through renderings andlike all the boring stuff to get
to the point where then hey,look at this, right, yeah, it'd
(11:42):
be awesome.
Elizabeth Bowman (11:42):
It would be awesome and I also think that
because of the storylines inopera being so, so wild, and I
mean there's there's so muchimagery and color to a lot of
these productions that there's alot of opportunity for
corporate sponsorships topartner, because they're all
(12:03):
looking for sort of memorable,vibrant, almost cartoon-esque
scenes which basicallyepitomizes what opera is like
visually, you know.
Joel Ivany (12:19):
It's like and Wagner was someone who he called it
the Gesamtkulturer like this big, massive idea and I I almost a
hundred percent would say thatif, if that technology was
available back then he totallywould have incorporated it in
terms of he was doing crazytechnological stuff on stage
(12:40):
because that's what they had.
He wanted to make thefantastical a reality and to to
do that like you're seeing it inHollywood with cg, like all
these movies have a formula.
They know what works and theycan.
They can try to find itsomewhere in Arizona or Orillia
or wherever it's the cheapestplace, or you can kind of get it
(13:04):
perfect in a computer, which isscary but it's also amazing.
Elizabeth Bowman (13:11):
It is scary, but it doesn't omit a lot of the
creative elements.
You still need to have that setconcept.
You still need to have even thelighting concept, because it
will also be altered by wherethat production is standing.
Joel Ivany (13:29):
Yeah, exactly.
Elizabeth Bowman (13:31):
You still need the creative elements.
So I do think it's sort ofdefinitely worth exploring,
especially in terms ofaccessibility and in terms of
possibility in terms ofpartnerships.
Joel Ivany (13:47):
And Knowing that you got that idea from taking a
break, like a pause in terms ofI'm just going to relax for a
bit and see where this is andlike ideas start coming.
So there's something as wellabout where we are today in
terms of those who work in thearts, like we're working
incredibly hard and under verychallenging circumstances and
(14:09):
under very challengingcircumstances and it's okay at
times I'm saying this for myselftoo to take a break, because
that is also work in terms ofletting new ideas and new
thoughts kind of emerge.
Elizabeth Bowman (14:21):
Yeah, you definitely need space even
though it's hard to do, aspeople in the arts tend to be
natural over workers, includingmyself, so that I mean that did
take some, some effort to reallyjust to cool down and not not
(14:42):
do anything.
And really this is sort of whatthis podcast is all about is of
having these conversationsabout things I'm really
interested in and what's goingon in the industry, and that's
how this podcast came to life,because it was a natural
progression.
I was, oh, I missed that aboutOpera Canada and I was like,
well, why not just?
(15:04):
keep talking about these things.
Circling back, though, with theidea of modern technology and
honoring tradition.
You have explored this in someof your creative work already.
How do you strike that balanceof honoring that tradition and
acknowledging modern?
Joel Ivany (15:23):
One you can't be afraid, and that's a big thing,
because in opera it can be a bigfinancial risk at times to play
with production.
It can be a big financial riskat times to play with production
, which is this whole sort ofagain this inherited notion that
it's in these massive spaceswith our subscriber base and we
can't shake it too much.
(15:44):
But again, you can't be afraidto trust on where your
experience has brought you andthen also to venture into the
unknown, and that's kind ofscary because you don't know
where it will go.
But you will also discover new.
And so, being in Edmonton, whichhas a more conservative base in
(16:07):
terms of what a GainesvilleGreen Theatre had, we had
massive success with ourreimagined Orphea, which had a
digital chorus, it had anelectric guitar instead of the
traditional string instrumentsin the orchestra and like
hardcore heavy use ofprojections, and a lot of our
(16:28):
traditional audience loved that,like they loved the piece,
because it was the story, it wasthe opera, but it had a way of
incorporating elements that theyhad never seen or heard at the
opera before.
Does that mean that formulawill work every time?
No, but you can't be afraid totry and your audience will, like
, they'll let you know.
They'll let you know what theylike.
(16:48):
They'll let you know if whereyou're going is successful and
want to see more and that's whatI love a lot about where you
ensure that Edmonton Opera'sprogramming reflects the
(17:15):
identity and culture of Edmonton.
How one determines one'sidentity is an interesting thing
as well.
It was again driving yesterday,which you do a lot of driving
in Edmonton, and I put on theradio, so embracing my inner
Albertan, and it was all aboutidentity Do you identify as a
(17:36):
Canadian, do you identify as anAlbertan, do you identify as an
Edmontonian?
And the wide variety of answersfrom these people who were
texting and emailing and callingin was vast.
And so there's no way that theopera can please everybody, and
(17:56):
I would say that is true toanywhere.
You just can't do it.
So it's more who do you choose?
How do you choose?
And I love embracing acollaborative effort with our
team, and that also includes ouraudience.
Again, it can be difficult, butasking surveys, having focus
groups, a collaborative effortwith that, with our team, and
that also includes our audience.
By again, it can be difficult,but asking surveys, having focus
groups, asking questions onsocial media and saying this is
(18:20):
your company.
So what do you, what do youwant to see, what do you want to
hear, and how can we helpchange that?
Elizabeth Bowman (18:25):
Do you have partnerships with Edmonton based
organizations, strengtheningyour relationship with the
community and the city?
Joel Ivany (18:33):
We're working on that for sure.
Other arts organizations are abig one, I think, the last five
years.
People are still trying tofigure out how it all works,
because there's a lot of newpeople in places and so that
newness, there's an opportunityfor working together with groups
and people that didn't existbefore.
So, yes, and just saying, hey,how can we pool our strengths
(18:57):
and resources together to createsomething new?
And for me, I'm pretty surethat will always happen in my
career, wherever I'm at in termsof just let's not do things the
same old way if it wasn'tsuccessful, because how will it
change?
So let's work on things thesame old way if it wasn't
successful, because how will itchange?
So let's work on making thingsbetter.
Elizabeth Bowman (19:16):
Do you think that the way forward for overall
Canada Canadian artsorganizations, since you're
based in Canada, do you thinkthat collaboration is really the
name of the game?
I imagine you collaborate withthe Edmonton Symphony.
I don't know if you collaboratewith any other arts
organizations there, but howimportant is that?
Joel Ivany (19:36):
For me hugely and I would think it's the same if you
can like.
We talked about space, if youcan carve out space to listen to
art organizations.
We have a great collaborationwith the Citadel Theater, which
they don't do opera.
We have a great collaborationwith the Citadel Theatre, which
they don't do opera, but theyhave a space downtown and we're
(19:57):
doing the same thing.
So we have this greatcollaboration with them, which
has taken again this is myfourth year, so four years of
kind of regularly meeting,conversing and talking, and same
with the symphony and theEdmonton Arts Council.
So, yes, the university.
There's this incredibleconnection between universities
(20:20):
in our cities which areproducing opera singers, and why
don't we have a greaterconnection between our
universities and our operacompanies in the city as well,
beyond, just we just both doopera.
So I do think it is.
I think that takes more work insome ways because we each want
(20:44):
to do things our own ways, somaybe not 100% all the time, but
collaboration is just likedividing those percentages,
right.
Elizabeth Bowman (20:49):
That makes a lot of sense in terms of the
universities havingrelationships with the
presenting arts organizations.
I know when I grew up and Iwent to the University of Ottawa
and Opera Lyra was the companyin Ottawa that has since folded,
unfortunately, but they hadsort of a relationship with the
(21:11):
University of Ottawa for theiryoung artists program.
So I was grateful to them forthat because I did both studying
opera at the University ofOttawa and then also their young
artists program, which theythey understood the schedule and
made it possible for me to doboth.
Joel Ivany (21:29):
Yeah, I know, I know there's a course in Victoria
made it possible for me to doboth.
Yeah, I know, I know there's acourse in Victoria where, if
you're at the university ofVictoria, the course is like you
get you sing in the Pacificopera Victoria professional
company.
So it's happening at someplaces.
And I think Canada is so huge,it's just hard to really get
together to know what's going onelsewhere, to not just say we
(21:51):
want to replicate it, but justlearn from it, talk and just
kind of say what's working andwhat, what isn't necessarily can
I ask you how important emailmarketing is to your company?
you can and this is a greatquestion, because we've all
gotten those emails right.
Right, in terms of, like, howoften you get spam by emails,
(22:14):
how often you get targetedemails.
I think emails can beincredibly effective in terms of
how we deliver messages tothese right.
I even think we're trying toinvestigate even texting, like
when you sign up to buy acertain pair of shoes, they want
your email and your cell phonenumber to be able to send
marketing to your phones.
(22:34):
So the way that we can targetwho gets certain emails, who you
can leave off, who you caninclude, is incredibly powerful
because and again that justshows you right it's technology,
it's our email.
Where do we access our emails?
On our computers or our phonesor on our wrists?
So, kind of, how do we justremind people that we're there
(22:59):
and that, if you like something,that you can get more of it?
Elizabeth Bowman (23:04):
I don't know why not more arts organizations
don't use the texting.
I mean, once you buy a ticket,you should automatically be
subscribed to text updates.
But they should be creative.
Joel Ivany (23:15):
Yes.
Elizabeth Bowman (23:16):
Not like the show's next week.
Joel Ivany (23:18):
Yeah, Like will me make it Throw up next week to
find out.
Elizabeth Bowman (23:24):
I honestly think that would be funny.
It would raise some sort ofintrigue if you had creative
text written.
Joel Ivany (23:32):
So I, Because we're not a shoe company right sort of
intrigue if you had creativetext written.
So I, because we're not a shoecompany, right?
We're not, we're not, we're not, we're not.
Lego, which is even morecreative, like we are an arts
organization which deals withcreativity and stories and
imaginations.
Yeah, we need to inject thatinto everything we do.
Elizabeth Bowman (23:49):
The last time I talked to Kate Pizzaroni,
lenny's Studio.
She's a great communicator foranyone listening.
We had a conversation about howopera companies should be
texting and should incorporatemore interesting content in that
realm.
They could send a quick link toan interview.
Joel Ivany (24:10):
Yes.
Elizabeth Bowman (24:11):
And it could be.
Will Mimi make it?
And then it could be Mimi inthe final scene.
I don't you know what I mean.
Joel Ivany (24:17):
Doing the rehearsal and the rehearsal garb.
Yeah, exactly 30 seconds of themost beautiful music to say I
can't wait to go hear this live.
Yeah, I know.
Elizabeth Bowman (24:26):
Anything.
Joel Ivany (24:27):
Anything.
Elizabeth Bowman (24:29):
Let's get more creative.
Anyway, let's get more creative.
Anyway.
I I love having you on anypodcast.
So thanks so much for coming onto this podcast and I look
forward to many moreconversations with you about
opera, performing arts,augmented reality, halloween
decorations I know I love that.
Joel Ivany (24:49):
Thank you for the invite, lizzie, because our
chats are always provocative.
They're always burning morethoughts, and that's what this,
that's what I love about thisbusiness, so that's why we need
more of it.
So thank you for that and bestof luck with the podcast.
Hi, I'm Elizabeth Bowman and welcome to
the Scene Room.
Today I have Joel Ivany here.
He is the Artistic Director ofEdmonton Opera in Canada.
He's also the Artistic Directorof Opera at the Banff Centre
for Arts and Creativity.
He is the founder of Againstthe Grain Theatre in Toronto and
(00:23):
he always has reallyinteresting things to say.
I'm so pleased that he agreedto come and have this
conversation with me.
Joel, welcome to the scene room.
Thanks so much for coming.
Joel Ivany (00:36):
Lizzie, it's great to be in the scene room.
Thanks for the invite.
Looking forward to this.
Elizabeth Bowman (00:40):
We talked on my previous podcast, the Opera
Glasses podcast, which is stillgoing, hosted by the new editor,
Michael Jones, so you guys can,after you're done with this,
maybe go check that out.
Yes, but it's really great totalk to you again and I wanted
to really focus this episodesince you're now settled in
(01:01):
Edmonton.
For how long have you beenthere now?
Joel Ivany (01:03):
This is my fourth into the fourth year.
Elizabeth Bowman (01:07):
Right.
So the reason why I wanted toask you, as a settled artistic
director in Edmonton, is youhave a new audience base that is
different than the Toronto onethat you explored, and I wanted
to dive in there and see whatyou've been experiencing there
with your artistic vision,marketing, audience engagement
(01:30):
and all that good stuff.
Let's just dive right in.
What strategies have you foundmost effective in capturing new
audiences?
And I guess the audienceentirely was new to you, so tell
us a little bit about that.
Joel Ivany (01:43):
So some of it is very simple in terms of just
like.
What I found shocking in someways is that people in Edmonton
many still did not even knowthat Edmonton had an opera
company.
So meaning, like I met someoneyesterday who associated opera
with Paris, with London, likesort of the biggest of the most
(02:03):
European grandness of what operais for a lot of people and what
is still, but that theycouldn't necessarily fathom that
it could be something in thecity that they live in, which is
Edmonton.
And you know we're immersed ina community and colleagues and
friends that have, you know wethink opera, we think classical
music kind of all day.
(02:23):
So it's easy to kind of forgetthat not everyone thinks that
way.
So I think there's somethingvery simple in whether that is
billboards, whether that is inour print media, whether that is
in you know, we do radio adshere.
You have to drive around a lotin Edmonton, a little bit more
(02:44):
than the public transit inToronto.
So it's kind of what ispeople's reception on what they
hear when they hear the wordopera and so what are we
attaching to them?
So when you say strategies likedebunking a little bit of what
opera is in terms of saying itis not, elite saying it is.
So again, all those innovativebuzzwords, accessible for
(03:04):
everyone, relatable currentissues today, and it can also be
the paris stuff as well haveyou raised your community
engagement projects?
Elizabeth Bowman (03:16):
are you out in the community?
Do you find that that helps?
Joel Ivany (03:19):
yes, a big thing that in toronto I didn't
necessarily always see the operaon television as well, whereas
it seems like more in thesesmaller cities.
In Toronto it's a lot easier toget on television, to have
these television stations whichI don't know Again.
I think a certain demographicare still watching TV stations.
(03:39):
Obviously there's also acertain demographic that you're
also streaming.
So it's kind of those aredifferent platforms and
different ways that we access.
But getting out to thecommunity, having a touch point
to just say hey, we're here, notyou just have to come to us,
but we're also going to go outto you, is something that we, I
think, have to do.
Elizabeth Bowman (03:59):
And you obviously started doing a lot of
that community engagementthrough your against the Grain
work.
Have you brought any of thoseideas to Edmonton?
Have you repeated anything thathas been effective for you?
Joel Ivany (04:12):
One thing that we do , which has its own kind of
following and audience, is we doour opera.
So that's like one where once amonth we are singing
traditional opera and alsomusical theater, some art song
like it's not the same formulaevery month, but we go into
traditional opera and alsomusical theater, some art song
Like it's not the same formulaevery month, but we go into a
bar and we sing and it's packedevery single time.
(04:33):
We do it once a month, and sofor some people they are not
seasoned subscribers or regularattendees at the larger operas,
but they do not miss an operapub, but they do not miss an
opera pub, and so I can'tcomplain that that is giving
opera to our communities andalso sharing what Edmonton Opera
is doing out there.
And if we stop doing that,would they show up to the opera?
(04:56):
Probably not, but so what thenis opera to an individual?
Elizabeth Bowman (05:02):
Can I ask do you have any data that backs up
the people who have experiencedthe opera pubs, who then go to
the opera and who are thenrepeatedly going to the opera?
So audience retention.
Joel Ivany (05:17):
Do I have data?
No, does it exist?
I'm sure it does.
So if you're interested inwanting to kind of come and do
residency with Edmonton Opera,hey, we welcome that.
I think it's there andcapturable.
But that's exactly the type ofthings which a lot of times we
just don't have capacity but Ithink could be things that could
(05:38):
really unlock a new strategy.
We're so caught up in doingwhat was instead of trying what
can be.
Elizabeth Bowman (05:45):
I think there's some information online
that I've read that talks abouthow a lot of people go to operas
for the first time but thendon't repeat the experience.
Yeah, and you know, I find thatthat's sort of fascinating.
So audience retention isobviously a big issue in our
industry.
Fascinating.
So audience retention isobviously a big issue in our
(06:05):
industry and I feel like you'redoing such a great job engaging
with the community, which has toultimately help.
Even if you don't have thenumbers to back it up, I think
that if you did do a survey, youwould find that that makes a
huge difference.
Joel Ivany (06:20):
And that's actually a great survey.
And that could be one of theways we do these surveys through
our emails, which give backincredible feedback which we can
then implement change and somaybe, yeah, that's just
triggering a good somehow, yeah,we'll pull our next audience or
somehow include that in one ofour surveys.
You got to get them, you got toentice them to.
(06:42):
They're not the sexiest fillout or survey, but when you do,
you get good information.
Elizabeth Bowman (06:48):
It is what it is.
It's the sort of necessary evilwithin the marketing and
planning, artistic planningworld.
I want to tell the audience alittle bit of a story about.
I guess I took a break fromOpera Canada.
Well, I didn.
I took a break from OperaCanada.
Well, I didn't take a break.
I concluded my time with OperaCanada and then was taking a
(07:09):
break from all professionalthings, and I reached out to you
because I saw a LinkedIn postabout augmented reality
Halloween decorations.
Yes yes, and I thought, oh mygoodness, I need to go, I need
(07:38):
to call Joel and see what hethinks about yes, yes, I think
we came up with some really goodideas.
So I thought, even though wehaven't executed any of these
things, I thought it was worthsort of exploring this on this
podcast episode.
Joel Ivany (07:50):
Like we are using technology now right, Like to do
this.
So it's kind of it's an amazingway to share information.
So it's kind of, in some ways,we are so archaic in how we
implement art, which isbeautiful and nostalgic, but we
also have to move things alongand use the tools that are
available to let the art evolveat the same time.
Elizabeth Bowman (08:10):
I think that with augmented reality, everyone
who's listening, like they havethe technology now to basically
you could take your phone andpoint it at a building and there
could be a champagne party onthe roof and huge bottles of
champagne pouring everywhere.
It could be an advertisementfor Die Fledermaus , you know,
(08:32):
which is obviously an operabased around a ballroom and
scene.
We were talking aboutrecreating Cafe Momus from La
Boheme in multiple cities aroundthe world and doing a virtual
installation, and they have allthis technology where you can
(08:53):
actually engage with thecharacters in these
installations so you could talkto them, you could input AI
personalities into all of themand then learn about when the
opera was made, what thecharacter was thinking, the
setting, a whole lot of stuff orwhat am I trying to say?
Joel Ivany (09:13):
How many people in North America actually possess a
cell phone?
Like we are all carrying aroundthese super mini computers?
Elizabeth Bowman (09:32):
So that is already removing one of the
major barriers right there, andI know that Edmonton Opera is
big on getting out to remoteplaces.
I know you guys were just in.
Joel Ivany (09:39):
Whitehorse.
Yeah, exactly, exactly.
Elizabeth Bowman (09:42):
Yeah, I'm not sure what you were doing, but I
just saw it across my feed andthought, oh, that's so great.
But these sort of augmentedreality installations where, for
instance, you could have all ofAct Two of La Boheme, could be
in a remote place that doesn'tnecessarily have access to that
kind of talent or that kind ofproduction and people could
(10:06):
experience it there.
That's the thing.
Joel Ivany (10:09):
Like we had one conversation with a community
that has an opera company andthey're like oh, I don't know if
we can bring in that setbecause literally the the road
to our community is so dangerous, like we either build it here
or like you can fly it in andlike fold everything.
So it's kind of imagine if youcould say oh, like we can give
(10:31):
you a million dollar production,like we'll give you act two of
love om, with like an incredibleorchestra, a great cast of
singers, and all you need isyour phone.
Like who, who wouldn't do?
Do that?
Elizabeth Bowman (10:44):
There's definitely a level of
accessibility to this idea andobviously there's aspects of
this that you know would need tobe worked out legally, you know
, because the creative would betraveling around, everyone would
have to be compensated forhowever many times that
production went to whateverplace, and it would have to be
(11:05):
set up for that place.
So it's not like it would be afree thing, but it's certainly
an option.
If you have a set problem, youcould have the live singers
there and basically it would belike a green screen for them.
Joel Ivany (11:18):
That's the thing with technology, Like it's so
you can do so much and so manydifferent possibilities.
And in my experience with anykind of work with AR, with VR,
like 95% of the work is thoseheroes behind a computer who are
turning through renderings andlike all the boring stuff to get
to the point where then hey,look at this, right, yeah, it'd
(11:42):
be awesome.
Elizabeth Bowman (11:42):
It would be awesome and I also think that
because of the storylines inopera being so, so wild, and I
mean there's there's so muchimagery and color to a lot of
these productions that there's alot of opportunity for
corporate sponsorships topartner, because they're all
(12:03):
looking for sort of memorable,vibrant, almost cartoon-esque
scenes which basicallyepitomizes what opera is like
visually, you know.
Joel Ivany (12:19):
It's like and Wagner was someone who he called it
the Gesamtkulturer like this big, massive idea and I I almost a
hundred percent would say thatif, if that technology was
available back then he totallywould have incorporated it in
terms of he was doing crazytechnological stuff on stage
(12:40):
because that's what they had.
He wanted to make thefantastical a reality and to to
do that like you're seeing it inHollywood with cg, like all
these movies have a formula.
They know what works and theycan.
They can try to find itsomewhere in Arizona or Orillia
or wherever it's the cheapestplace, or you can kind of get it
(13:04):
perfect in a computer, which isscary but it's also amazing.
Elizabeth Bowman (13:11):
It is scary, but it doesn't omit a lot of the
creative elements.
You still need to have that setconcept.
You still need to have even thelighting concept, because it
will also be altered by wherethat production is standing.
Joel Ivany (13:29):
Yeah, exactly.
Elizabeth Bowman (13:31):
You still need the creative elements.
So I do think it's sort ofdefinitely worth exploring,
especially in terms ofaccessibility and in terms of
possibility in terms ofpartnerships.
Joel Ivany (13:47):
And Knowing that you got that idea from taking a
break, like a pause in terms ofI'm just going to relax for a
bit and see where this is andlike ideas start coming.
So there's something as wellabout where we are today in
terms of those who work in thearts, like we're working
incredibly hard and under verychallenging circumstances and
(14:09):
under very challengingcircumstances and it's okay at
times I'm saying this for myselftoo to take a break, because
that is also work in terms ofletting new ideas and new
thoughts kind of emerge.
Elizabeth Bowman (14:21):
Yeah, you definitely need space even
though it's hard to do, aspeople in the arts tend to be
natural over workers, includingmyself, so that I mean that did
take some, some effort to reallyjust to cool down and not not
(14:42):
do anything.
And really this is sort of whatthis podcast is all about is of
having these conversationsabout things I'm really
interested in and what's goingon in the industry, and that's
how this podcast came to life,because it was a natural
progression.
I was, oh, I missed that aboutOpera Canada and I was like,
well, why not just?
(15:04):
keep talking about these things.
Circling back, though, with theidea of modern technology and
honoring tradition.
You have explored this in someof your creative work already.
How do you strike that balanceof honoring that tradition and
acknowledging modern?
Joel Ivany (15:23):
One you can't be afraid, and that's a big thing,
because in opera it can be a bigfinancial risk at times to play
with production.
It can be a big financial riskat times to play with production
, which is this whole sort ofagain this inherited notion that
it's in these massive spaceswith our subscriber base and we
can't shake it too much.
(15:44):
But again, you can't be afraidto trust on where your
experience has brought you andthen also to venture into the
unknown, and that's kind ofscary because you don't know
where it will go.
But you will also discover new.
And so, being in Edmonton, whichhas a more conservative base in
(16:07):
terms of what a GainesvilleGreen Theatre had, we had
massive success with ourreimagined Orphea, which had a
digital chorus, it had anelectric guitar instead of the
traditional string instrumentsin the orchestra and like
hardcore heavy use ofprojections, and a lot of our
(16:28):
traditional audience loved that,like they loved the piece,
because it was the story, it wasthe opera, but it had a way of
incorporating elements that theyhad never seen or heard at the
opera before.
Does that mean that formulawill work every time?
No, but you can't be afraid totry and your audience will, like
, they'll let you know.
They'll let you know what theylike.
(16:48):
They'll let you know if whereyou're going is successful and
want to see more and that's whatI love a lot about where you
ensure that Edmonton Opera'sprogramming reflects the
(17:15):
identity and culture of Edmonton.
How one determines one'sidentity is an interesting thing
as well.
It was again driving yesterday,which you do a lot of driving
in Edmonton, and I put on theradio, so embracing my inner
Albertan, and it was all aboutidentity Do you identify as a
(17:36):
Canadian, do you identify as anAlbertan, do you identify as an
Edmontonian?
And the wide variety of answersfrom these people who were
texting and emailing and callingin was vast.
And so there's no way that theopera can please everybody, and
(17:56):
I would say that is true toanywhere.
You just can't do it.
So it's more who do you choose?
How do you choose?
And I love embracing acollaborative effort with our
team, and that also includes ouraudience.
Again, it can be difficult, butasking surveys, having focus
groups, a collaborative effortwith that, with our team, and
that also includes our audience.
By again, it can be difficult,but asking surveys, having focus
groups, asking questions onsocial media and saying this is
(18:20):
your company.
So what do you, what do youwant to see, what do you want to
hear, and how can we helpchange that?
Elizabeth Bowman (18:25):
Do you have partnerships with Edmonton based
organizations, strengtheningyour relationship with the
community and the city?
Joel Ivany (18:33):
We're working on that for sure.
Other arts organizations are abig one, I think, the last five
years.
People are still trying tofigure out how it all works,
because there's a lot of newpeople in places and so that
newness, there's an opportunityfor working together with groups
and people that didn't existbefore.
So, yes, and just saying, hey,how can we pool our strengths
(18:57):
and resources together to createsomething new?
And for me, I'm pretty surethat will always happen in my
career, wherever I'm at in termsof just let's not do things the
same old way if it wasn'tsuccessful, because how will it
change?
So let's work on things thesame old way if it wasn't
successful, because how will itchange?
So let's work on making thingsbetter.
Elizabeth Bowman (19:16):
Do you think that the way forward for overall
Canada Canadian artsorganizations, since you're
based in Canada, do you thinkthat collaboration is really the
name of the game?
I imagine you collaborate withthe Edmonton Symphony.
I don't know if you collaboratewith any other arts
organizations there, but howimportant is that?
Joel Ivany (19:36):
For me hugely and I would think it's the same if you
can like.
We talked about space, if youcan carve out space to listen to
art organizations.
We have a great collaborationwith the Citadel Theater, which
they don't do opera.
We have a great collaborationwith the Citadel Theatre, which
they don't do opera, but theyhave a space downtown and we're
(19:57):
doing the same thing.
So we have this greatcollaboration with them, which
has taken again this is myfourth year, so four years of
kind of regularly meeting,conversing and talking, and same
with the symphony and theEdmonton Arts Council.
So, yes, the university.
There's this incredibleconnection between universities
(20:20):
in our cities which areproducing opera singers, and why
don't we have a greaterconnection between our
universities and our operacompanies in the city as well,
beyond, just we just both doopera.
So I do think it is.
I think that takes more work insome ways because we each want
(20:44):
to do things our own ways, somaybe not 100% all the time, but
collaboration is just likedividing those percentages,
right.
Elizabeth Bowman (20:49):
That makes a lot of sense in terms of the
universities havingrelationships with the
presenting arts organizations.
I know when I grew up and Iwent to the University of Ottawa
and Opera Lyra was the companyin Ottawa that has since folded,
unfortunately, but they hadsort of a relationship with the
(21:11):
University of Ottawa for theiryoung artists program.
So I was grateful to them forthat because I did both studying
opera at the University ofOttawa and then also their young
artists program, which theythey understood the schedule and
made it possible for me to doboth.
Joel Ivany (21:29):
Yeah, I know, I know there's a course in Victoria
made it possible for me to doboth.
Yeah, I know, I know there's acourse in Victoria where, if
you're at the university ofVictoria, the course is like you
get you sing in the Pacificopera Victoria professional
company.
So it's happening at someplaces.
And I think Canada is so huge,it's just hard to really get
together to know what's going onelsewhere, to not just say we
(21:51):
want to replicate it, but justlearn from it, talk and just
kind of say what's working andwhat, what isn't necessarily can
I ask you how important emailmarketing is to your company?
you can and this is a greatquestion, because we've all
gotten those emails right.
Right, in terms of, like, howoften you get spam by emails,
(22:14):
how often you get targetedemails.
I think emails can beincredibly effective in terms of
how we deliver messages tothese right.
I even think we're trying toinvestigate even texting, like
when you sign up to buy acertain pair of shoes, they want
your email and your cell phonenumber to be able to send
marketing to your phones.
(22:34):
So the way that we can targetwho gets certain emails, who you
can leave off, who you caninclude, is incredibly powerful
because and again that justshows you right it's technology,
it's our email.
Where do we access our emails?
On our computers or our phonesor on our wrists?
So, kind of, how do we justremind people that we're there
(22:59):
and that, if you like something,that you can get more of it?
Elizabeth Bowman (23:04):
I don't know why not more arts organizations
don't use the texting.
I mean, once you buy a ticket,you should automatically be
subscribed to text updates.
But they should be creative.
Joel Ivany (23:15):
Yes.
Elizabeth Bowman (23:16):
Not like the show's next week.
Joel Ivany (23:18):
Yeah, Like will me make it Throw up next week to
find out.
Elizabeth Bowman (23:24):
I honestly think that would be funny.
It would raise some sort ofintrigue if you had creative
text written.
Joel Ivany (23:32):
So I, Because we're not a shoe company right sort of
intrigue if you had creativetext written.
So I, because we're not a shoecompany, right?
We're not, we're not, we're not, we're not.
Lego, which is even morecreative, like we are an arts
organization which deals withcreativity and stories and
imaginations.
Yeah, we need to inject thatinto everything we do.
Elizabeth Bowman (23:49):
The last time I talked to Kate Pizzaroni,
lenny's Studio.
She's a great communicator foranyone listening.
We had a conversation about howopera companies should be
texting and should incorporatemore interesting content in that
realm.
They could send a quick link toan interview.
Joel Ivany (24:10):
Yes.
Elizabeth Bowman (24:11):
And it could be.
Will Mimi make it?
And then it could be Mimi inthe final scene.
I don't you know what I mean.
Joel Ivany (24:17):
Doing the rehearsal and the rehearsal garb.
Yeah, exactly 30 seconds of themost beautiful music to say I
can't wait to go hear this live.
Yeah, I know.
Elizabeth Bowman (24:26):
Anything.
Joel Ivany (24:27):
Anything.
Elizabeth Bowman (24:29):
Let's get more creative.
Anyway, let's get more creative.
Anyway.
I I love having you on anypodcast.
So thanks so much for coming onto this podcast and I look
forward to many moreconversations with you about
opera, performing arts,augmented reality, halloween
decorations I know I love that.
Joel Ivany (24:49):
Thank you for the invite, lizzie, because our
chats are always provocative.
They're always burning morethoughts, and that's what this,
that's what I love about thisbusiness, so that's why we need
more of it.
So thank you for that and bestof luck with the podcast.
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