May 29, 2025 • 32 mins
What makes a great music institution? Is it world-class facilities, exceptional faculty, or something more intangible? Matthew Loden, Dean of the Shepherd School of Music at Rice University, brings perspective from both sides of the music world—as a former professional violinist and as a seasoned arts administrator who's led major organizations including the Philadelphia and Toronto Symphony Orchestras.
Loden's journey reveals what originally sparked his passion for arts leadership. "I found that I could enjoy the creative aspects of building something in the same kind of way I enjoy sitting in a big orchestra doing Mahler 3," he reflects. This revelation led him through increasingly complex challenges, from managing the Aspen Music Festival to helping navigate the Philadelphia Orchestra through Chapter 11 bankruptcy.
Now overseeing Rice's prestigious music program during its 50th anniversary, Loden emphasizes what makes the Shepherd School distinctive: its intentionally small size (just 275 students), extraordinary facilities including the new Brockman Hall for Opera, and its unique position within a top research university. Rather than chasing growth, the school focuses on excellence within a carefully defined framework.
Included in the Shepherd's School's outreach initiatives is the school's partnership with the Concert Truck, which brings classical performances directly to communities throughout Houston—including the annual Rodeo and Livestock Show. This immersive experience teaches students to communicate effectively while breaking down barriers between classical music and new audiences. As Loden describes watching cowboys in Fort Worth encountering chamber music, you can feel his excitement about classical music's potential to transcend cultural boundaries.
When discussing what today's musicians need, Loden offers wisdom that extends beyond music: disciplined curiosity, resilience in the face of failure, and intellectual humility. His thoughts on artificial intelligence in music are particularly nuanced, acknowledging both legitimate concerns and exciting possibilities while asserting that the human soul behind a performance remains irreplaceable.
Have you experienced a transformative musical moment, either as performer or listener? Share your story and join our exploration of how classical music continues to evolve and inspire in unexpected places.
*photo credit: Bedoya Fitlow
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Elizabeth Bowman (00:00):
Hi, I'm Elizabeth Bowman and welcome to
the Scene Room.
Today I have Matthew Loden, theDean of the Shepherd School of
Music at Rice University.
He was named to the position in2021 and came to Rice with an
abundance of experience as atalented musician and a strong
leader.
Matthew has had an illustriouscareer so far.
(00:20):
He was Vice President andGeneral Manager at the Aspen
Music Festival and School.
He served as interimco-president of the Philadelphia
Orchestra and as its executivevice president for institutional
advancement.
He was also the CEO of theToronto Symphony Orchestra
before he moved on to take thedeanship at the Shepard School
(00:44):
of Music.
If you're enjoying the podcast,please do like, share, review,
do any of those things.
It really helps keep theseconversations going.
I'm really looking forward tochatting with him today about
all that is happening at RiceUniversity.
So let's get to it.
Matthew.
Welcome to the scene room.
Thanks so much for coming.
Matthew Loden (01:04):
Oh, it's fabulous to be here.
Elizabeth Bowman (01:06):
Tell us where you're podcasting from today.
Matthew Loden (01:09):
Right now I'm on campus at Rice University, at
the Shepard School of Music.
In my office and I'm going toapologize in advance We've got a
building going up next door tome, so you might hear some
construction beeping here andthere.
Elizabeth Bowman (01:21):
And you've been at Rice since 2021.
Yes, that's an interestingtransition.
You know, obviously, the movinginto post-pandemic period, and
just can you tell me a littlebit about that?
Matthew Loden (01:34):
Yeah, 2021 was a homecoming for me.
My wife and I are actually bothnative Houstonians, and so we'd
been in Canada.
I was the CEO for the TorontoSymphony Orchestra and I want to
say we had about 18 months ofincredibly exciting activity in
Toronto, hiring Gustavo Gimenoto be the new music director
there and putting a lot ofimportant structures in place to
(01:54):
kind of help turn the placearound.
And then the pandemic hit, andso we had another 18 months
living through COVID-19.
Covid-19.
And one of the things that wasamazing about this opportunity
here at the Shepard School wasthat during the pandemic, the
Shepard School completed thefinal building project as part
of the long-term plan, which wasto put the Brockman Hall for
Opera in place, and so I knewthat, if I were lucky enough to
(02:16):
get this job as dean of theShepard School, an important
part of what I would be doing isopening up that building, and
that's exactly what we were ableto do in early 22.
Elizabeth Bowman (02:25):
Amazing.
Can I circle back to how yougot into arts administration in
the first place?
Because a lot of emerging orpeople thinking about careers in
the arts.
I love asking this question.
Matthew Loden (02:36):
Sure, I was incredibly lucky in that I was a
full-time professionalviolinist in New York and a lot
of other places, playing withdifferent orchestras and
Broadway shows, and had ateaching studio and was, like
you know, doing what you do whenyou're a violinist in New York
that way, and I had anopportunity to actually start an
orchestra.
So String Orchestra of New YorkCity is still alive Sonic and
(02:58):
the process of working withother colleagues to figure out
how to incorporate a board ofdirectors and how to do the
fundraising and the artisticplanning and the operational
work and how to put a New Yorkdebut performance together.
I loved that activity and Ifound that I could enjoy sort of
the creative aspects ofbuilding something like that in
(03:19):
the same kind of way I enjoysitting in a big orchestra doing
Mahler 3.
And it felt like that was anopportunity for me to have an
impact in a different kind ofway on the industry itself and
that essentially led to a seriesof wonderful opportunities.
I was the vice president andgeneral manager at the Aspen
Music Festival in school for sixor seven years and that's where
(03:40):
I got to really figure out sortof high-level, complex
operations five orchestras,three opera performances,
hundreds of performances forthousands of patrons over the
span of an eight or a nine-weekfestival in the summertime, and
that was just extraordinary,because the world of classical
music tends to land in Aspen atsome point in the summer one way
or another, and I was accruedaway from that bucolic,
(04:04):
wonderful life to go to grittyPhiladelphia when the
Philadelphia Orchestra was inChapter 11 bankruptcy
reorganization, and AlisonVolkermore hired me and Ryan
Fleur at the same time to bepart of an executive team to
figure out how to get theorchestra back on its feet, and
that was some seriouslychallenging work but incredibly
rewarding.
I'm so grateful for thatopportunity and also grateful
(04:26):
that Ryan is now heading up theenterprise in Philadelphia and
there's so much positive that'shappening there that it's nice
to be able to look back and feellike I had a little impact on
helping it be what it is now.
And then, from Philadelphia, Iwent to Toronto in 2018 and I
had an amazing time there.
Canada is such a phenomenalcountry and Toronto is one of my
favorite cities and made lotsof friends, and it's an
(04:48):
incredible orchestra.
But then you know, theopportunity to run a school of
music like the Shepherd School.
It comes once in a generationfor someone like me.
So I wasn't about to miss outon the opportunity to at least
try to get this gig.
Elizabeth Bowman (04:59):
That's a huge breadth of experience.
Now you've been at the ShepardSchool for a few years.
What are your priorities goingforward?
What's your vision?
Matthew Loden (05:08):
I joke with the faculty that the first part of
my vision is to not breakanything, because so much that
is here.
Unlike a lot of my pastexperience, where it was a lot
of crisis management kind offiguring out what to triage, how
to be managing in a situationwhere you're undercapitalized
and where it feels like everydecision that you make has some
(05:29):
kind of existential impact, hereat the Shepard School, we're
already building on someincredible strength.
First and foremost, the facultyis extraordinary, and so a big
part of what I have to do is tofigure out how to manage a
generational shift in thefaculty.
The folks that actually builtthis school and made it what it
is today.
Many of them are retiring, andso finding that next generation
(05:50):
of equally amazing faculty toattract incredible students is a
key task.
Aside from that, one of thethings that is just remarkably
exciting is that we do have thisnew Brockman Hall for Opera,
which is the second building atthe Shepard School, and I think
that we probably have moresquare footage per student than
probably any other school ofmusic in North America.
We only have 275 students in theentire program, and a big part
(06:14):
of our success has been that wehave limited our size very
intentionally and we haven't runafter the sort of the shiny
things in order to drive revenue, in order to bring in students
who are paying full tuition.
What we've done instead is triedreally hard to identify what we
do really well and to keepdoing that really well and make
sure that we are distinguishingourselves within a very
(06:35):
prescribed framework and goingforward.
Of course, the world changesand we want to be able to adapt
to that as nimbly as possible.
So we're looking at everythingfrom how can we engage
responsibly with AI and what isthat relationship with classical
music going to be like in thefuture?
What is it that we can do inorder to give our students
outside of the practice room theskills and the tools that they
(06:59):
need to actually engage withaudiences beyond the concert
hall?
And we want to make sure that,fundamentally, the craft and the
art of performing and writingand researching as musicologists
that that's fundamentallyintact and still at the highest
possible level.
Elizabeth Bowman (07:14):
I was going to ask you about entrepreneurship.
Obviously, today's artists haveto be entrepreneurs and they
have to be outward, facingpublic speakers, as well as
excellent at their craft.
So what kind ofentrepreneurship focus does your
school have?
Matthew Loden (07:31):
One of the ways that we are addressing that is
through a series ofconversations with our faculty
and with our students right nowto look at what are the kinds of
things that they feel like thestudents feel like they actually
want to engage with.
We do have some fantasticfaculty here who are really
quite adept at helping studentssometimes get out of their
comfort zone.
Right, if you're used tospending all of your time
playing the clarinet really wellin a practice room or in an
(07:53):
orchestra, you have to practice.
You have to practice gettingout in front of people and being
able to talk to them about yourart form.
So one of the things that we'vedone is we've engaged with the
Conc truck over the last coupleof seasons, which is a wonderful
third-party arts organizationthat has a box truck with a side
that drops down and turns intoa movable stage, and we've been
going all throughout the Houstoncommunity with our students and
(08:14):
treating that as a kind ofcreative laboratory, both for
the students to learn how toperform in spaces like parks or
museum parking lots or before abaseball game at Rice University
University and help themunderstand that part of their
responsibility in being amusician in this day and age is
to figure out how to communicateand how to share this art form
as much as possible and as muchas people are willing to listen.
(08:37):
I'm lucky enough myself to bethe professor of executive music
management, and so a big partof how I approach teaching
classes myself is not just thenuts and bolts of a spreadsheet
or the business enterprise of anopera company or a symphony
orchestra, but that individualsensibility that people have to
have as creative musicians toknow that you yourself are a
(08:58):
kind of enterprise, especiallyin your early years.
If you don't win that first biggig when you're 24, you might
be spending two or three yearsor more trying to figure out how
to be a musician, and we wantto equip the students with as
many of those tools as possible.
Elizabeth Bowman (09:12):
I love the concert truck idea.
My husband is one of theconcert masters of the
Metropolitan Opera and he wasactually originally discovered
by Richard Bradshaw, who was thegeneral director of the
Canadian Opera Company, when hewas busking outside of the St
Lawrence Market in Toronto.
He was just doing it with hisstring quartet, probably after a
(09:35):
heavy night of partying, andyou never know who's listening.
That's a lesson for thestudents listening who are
participating in this particularprogram, because really you
think, oh, it's just this truckgig, oh whatever, but you have
to treat every performance likeit's Carnegie Hall or anything,
(09:55):
because you just never knowwho's listening and what
opportunities are going to come.
Next thing he knew he wasassociate concertmaster at the
Canadian Opera Company rightaway.
I mean, of course he went toCurtis and he wasn't like yeah,
he had a background.
Matthew Loden (10:10):
One of the first places that we took the concert
truck was to the annual Rodeoand Livestock Show here, which
is, I think, the largest in theworld, and it attracts people of
all shapes and sizes andbackgrounds and interests.
And I have to say it was one ofthe coolest things to see our
students on the concert truck,sort of on the fairground at the
rodeo, surrounded by folks incowboy hats from Fort Worth and
(10:32):
other places who were thinking,oh, you know, maybe this will be
the Orange Blossom Special orsome kind of country music or
bluegrass vibe, and instead wewere doing straight ahead
classical music and they wereenthralled, they absolutely
loved the experience and theyloved the idea of seeing young
people who are so passionateabout this kind of art and this
work and this storytellingthrough music that is in so many
(10:55):
ways timeless.
And so we're very muchcommitted to making sure that we
find those opportunities forthe students and for the school
to kind of get out there and bea part of our community.
Elizabeth Bowman (11:04):
That raises also the fact that you're
focused on community outreach ina way that exposes people and
the word relevance comes intoplay a lot in this podcast and I
would say that you're bringingrelevance to what these kids are
studying and really the futureof classical music by going out
(11:24):
into the community and reachingout.
Matthew Loden (11:26):
You know, relevance is kind of a it's a
bit of a double-edged sword, Ofcourse like you want to matter
in the society in which you liveand you want to feel like other
people care about what you'retrying to express through any
kind of art form.
The double-edged sword of it,though, is that there is still
room, I believe, in this worldfor art, for art's sake and for
the pursuit of things that arejust achingly beautiful.
(11:48):
Right, and the pursuit of thatin and of itself sometimes
should be justification.
We don't always live in thatkind of world, especially in a
hyper-capitalistic society wherethe metrics are usually geared
around how much money are youmaking, how efficient are you
being, what's your productivitylike?
And I have found time and timeagain that when you get the
(12:09):
right kind of musical experiencelive musical experience, where
you have an audience and youhave musicians on stage
performing the transformationalkind of emotional moments that
people have are uplifting andcarry them beyond their thoughts
of gosh.
I don't know if my tax dollarsshould support this or not, and
instead it turns into how can Ibe a part of engaging with this
(12:34):
kind of enterprise?
Over and over and over again,because it is so valuable.
Once it hits, it hits and itsticks.
Elizabeth Bowman (12:40):
I used to help administrate a chamber music
festival in Greece and we wouldgo to small towns that had
basically zero exposure toclassical music, and the
musicians in this particularfestival were all first-rate
musicians who were enjoyingtheir holiday in Greece.
(13:01):
But we would go around and wewould fly her every day.
We'd go around and it was greatbeautiful weather, but a lot of
locals would come.
And also it was very funnybecause having a concert at nine
actually meant like it startsat 9.40, because you know, no
one would show up at nine, likethat wouldn't happen.
Anyway, sort of like adapt tothe way of the world there.
(13:25):
But yeah, they would come andthey they wouldn't know who
schubert was or what this mightsound like, and they were
enthralled and so, yeah, thereis that definitely that argument
as well, that when you'reperforming music or performing
any type of art, you'reexchanging energy between you
(13:46):
and that audience, and if that'sthe intention and the audience
is receiving it, then that's abeautiful, beautiful, oh yeah.
Matthew Loden (13:53):
Well, and so much of it is just about access and
exposure we actually share.
I didn't know that about yourGreek chamber music history.
I spent two summers in Turkey ina very similar kind of
situation where we would play inthe agora of a Roman ruin and
the Turkish farmers would showup to hear our Mendelssohn octet
and we played in like the Odeonat Troy.
(14:15):
And you know, having peoplewithout any kind of familiarity
for this art form show up andspend two hours listening to
something and then want to talkto you afterwards or figure out
how does your instrument makethat sound is incredibly
exciting.
It also reminds me of a bit ofan apocryphal story that when
Nixon asked the PhiladelphiaOrchestra and Eugene Ormandy to
be a part of opening up Chinaand as a part of ping pong
(14:38):
diplomacy he asked the orchestrato go over and tour China,
madame Mao was so enthralled andenamored with the idea of the
orchestra that she insisted thatevery single state radio
station live broadcast thePhiladelphia Orchestra all over
the country.
And Tan Dun still remembersbeing out in the fields and
listening for the first time toa Western symphony orchestra and
(15:02):
that was something that stuckand it gave us that kind of
artist in the world, justbecause he happened to be there
at the moment to experience thatmusic, and so I think that's an
important part of what ourroles and responsibilities
should be as we lead these kindsof institutions.
Elizabeth Bowman (15:17):
What do you believe young musicians need on
this topic sort of what do youthink that they need most to
sustain long and fulfillingcareers now, in this current
climate?
Matthew Loden (15:28):
I'll be very general, right.
I mean, my normal responsewould be well, it just.
It depends on the musician,right.
It depends on the young artist,where they are, how they're
wired, what their skillset is.
But very generally, I think andthe discipline is not so much
about spending five hours a dayin the practice room, I think of
it as a discipline aroundconstantly asking the right
questions.
It's difficult to get answers toa lot of questions.
(15:50):
It could be a technical thingthat you're trying to solve, it
can be a musical expressionyou're trying to make, it might
be figuring out how to navigatesome aspect of the professional
field, but it's the questioningand the curiosity about the art
itself that, I think, is a bitof a superpower and will keep
you engaged, because resilienceis the other thing that you have
(16:10):
to have in this business.
So if you're asking enoughquestions, you're seeking the
right answers, if you'reresilient and you give yourself
permission to fail time and timeagain and keep getting back up
and getting better and learningfrom your mistakes, that is
going to be, I think, a nicerecipe for success.
And finally, I think, artisticand intellectual humility.
We sometimes spend an awful lotof time as musicians digging
(16:35):
very, very deeply into a scoreor into the sensibility of a
particular work, and we have tohave a kind of almost
egotistical confidence in orderto put it out in the world right
.
You have to know what you'redoing.
There's no safety net whenyou're by yourself on stage.
But we also have to understandthat we don't really always have
the answers, and sometimes wedon't come close to having as
(16:58):
many of the answers as we thinkwe do.
And so when you can approachthings where you're always
seeking and you're notconstantly assuming that you've
got it figured out, I think thatcan lead to an incredibly
rewarding and rich life, notjust a profession, but that's
just a good way to move throughthe world.
Elizabeth Bowman (17:13):
I totally agree.
I mean, especially when you'relistening to new works or you're
looking at new creations of artin general, like there's only
one way to come at it and that'swith a completely open mind as
to how you're going toexperience it, because otherwise
you'll just be like, oh, thisis just noise or this.
(17:34):
You know, because the firsttime you hear something, it's
difficult.
People don't like change.
Like if you look at howobviously music has transformed
through time and how long ittook us to get to dissonance,
that must have sounded wrong atfirst.
And now there's somesatisfaction in having those
dissonances and then resolve.
Matthew Loden (17:55):
I tell my students and myself quite
frankly that anytime I'mengaging a new work of art, that
my job is to assume that it isactually a masterpiece.
And if you start from thestandpoint of assuming that
anything new has that kind ofarchitecture and craft and
thought behind it, then you canbe completely critical and you
can decide.
This is absolutely not thething for me.
(18:16):
But if you position yourselfexpecting that it's going to
matter, that it's worth yourtime, it tends to open up your
ears and your brain a little bitmore successfully.
Elizabeth Bowman (18:26):
And to assume that, if you walk into a
situation and only assume thatyour perspective is what matters
, that's also dangerous in termsof art and in terms of having a
healthy conversation about whatit is that you're seeing and
experiencing.
Matthew Loden (18:42):
Well, I mean, art is ultimately about translation
between people, right, and weall acknowledge one way or
another, we have the same humancondition.
We have the same humancondition.
We have the same foibles, thesame hopes and dreams.
We want to be safe and warm andloved and a part of a tribe,
and finding different mechanismsto express those feelings is
(19:02):
the motivation for every greatwork of art.
And so why wouldn't we payattention to how open we need to
be with all of those kinds ofexperiences?
Elizabeth Bowman (19:10):
Earlier you mentioned that you're looking
into AI the relationship betweenmusicians and AI.
What do you mean by that?
Matthew Loden (19:23):
We're very nascently beginning to explore
things.
Right now there's anopportunity for a bit of a final
sort of capital project here atthe Shepard School to build out
one of our black box theatersinto a real technology media hub
that I'm excited about puttingin place and through the early
exploration of how we might wantto populate that space, we're
thinking about how do we want toshape our curriculum in a way
where maybe we think aboutasking students for a degree
(19:45):
recital instead of just doingwhat would be considered the
normal recital, where you do aconcert, know a concerto, a
sonata, or you know somethingthat is traditional and familiar
.
Maybe there's a media componentthat we need to pay attention
to, a video component, animagery, or maybe there's a way
that students can intersect withAI and find new ways of
(20:06):
expressing themselves.
I don't know the answers, Ijust know that, again, kind of
back to the idea of that, weknow those are the questions to
ask and I think that there'slike with any new technology
people are unsure or frightenedor worried about the impact.
You know, singer-song writersare now going to be out of
business because AI can writebetter songs than humans.
(20:27):
In the classical music world.
It's relatively easy tounderstand from a machine
learning standpoint what theVivaldi Four Seasons sounds like
and just keep generatingVivaldi sounding Baroque stuff
through AI.
The thing that I'm excitedabout actually with AI is that
we don't even really know whatcan be done, and we don't know
(20:49):
what new ways of creating sound,new ways of engaging with
traditional orchestral oroperatic experiences I think
that we're really at thebeginning of that frontier and I
think we have to be careful.
And I do think that there is alegitimate concern about
copyright infringement and theway in which musicians need to
continue to find the bestpossible ways for their creation
(21:12):
to be monetized whenappropriate, and so there's a
lot to be figured out, but I'mhopeful that a lot of the
universities and the greatconservatories and schools of
music will be leading the way insome of those conversations.
Elizabeth Bowman (21:22):
Yeah, and as you should.
You're a university, you'remeant to be thought leaders, and
in being a thought leader, youneed to explore even the dark
side of things, like you can'tjust make precepts without
knowing why.
So, and part of learning therules for how to play is
learning how to break them aswell.
Right, and learning that that'snot OK, and that's just part of
(21:46):
studying and thought leadership.
Matthew Loden (21:47):
One of the interesting.
I don't know if it's anadvantage or not, but the
reality is you can't actuallyfake it as a performer in this
industry, right?
So AI might help a contemporarycomposer shape a phrase in a
different way, and we might.
We'd never know about it.
But if your job is as atranslator of musical art, as an
(22:09):
instrumentalist or as a singeror whatever, you're not going to
be able to fake it, right?
And so I find that refreshing,and I also find it's a bit of an
opportunity for us to continueto put forward what it means to
be a live musician in real timein front of a live audience,
where all you're doing issetting up everything you've
learned how to do on stage andthen people get to enjoy it, and
(22:32):
that sort of anachronistic wayof sharing music in this day and
age.
I think people respect that.
I think there's a wholegeneration of kids that I have a
23-year-old daughter, and themusic that she's been exposed to
, the variety of genres of worldmusic we've never had that
before in the world and so shedoesn't have nearly the kind of
(22:55):
societal baggage that peoplefrom my generation would have
grown up with around differenttypes of music or what classical
music was or wasn't, and theelitism of all of that, and so I
think there's a generationcoming up that really gets
excited about seeing their peersdo this stuff.
Live.
Elizabeth Bowman (23:13):
When it comes to AI and creativity and
performance and that kind ofthing, well, we all talk about
the X factor that makes a greatperformance great.
Even if you have a technicallyexcellent delivery, it doesn't
necessarily mean that youraudience is going to be moved
right.
And that's the same thing withcomputer generated creations.
(23:36):
I believe I'm not going to sayI mean, that is my belief that
you need to have the soul behindit and then the soul travels
through that voice or instrumentto that audience in order for
them to have those goosebumps orthe things that they feel,
because I am not sure why, butthat's just like we're sharing
(23:58):
some sort of consciousness whenwe perform and that can't be
replaced by a computer.
It just can't.
Matthew Loden (24:04):
I couldn't agree more.
It's interesting, though,because you also have to take
into account what the audienceis expecting right?
If you also have to take intoaccount what the audience is
expecting, right.
If you come from within theindustry, like we do, then you
are constantly seeking out deepmusical moments and points of
connection, and that's kind ofyour barometer, right.
But if you are at a wedding andyou just want to dance or have
(24:25):
background music, thenAI-generated tunes that sound
like you know, michael Jacksonor Chicago, like that, might
actually be okay, and so I thinkthat we have to be equally
careful about not only ourjudgment around how the music is
being generated, but also likewhat's it for, where is it going
(24:45):
and who's going to be listening, and sometimes you can get a
different answer.
Elizabeth Bowman (24:48):
Yeah, that is thought-provoking.
Speaking of digital, are youalso exploring maybe virtual
reality and stuff like that?
Matthew Loden (24:56):
We will eventually get to the point
where we have the bandwidth andthe resources to further explore
virtual reality.
I know that there's a lot ofwonderful work that's being done
at other schools and otheruniversities.
I think that there's probably acommercial aspect of that that
can be very appealing.
Again, it kind of comes back tothe early.
Tenants of the Shepard Schoolwere very much when we were
(25:18):
created in 1975.
We're celebrating our 50thanniversary right now.
We were designed to be a verysmall, bespoke kind of musical
school and when we begin to lookat things that broaden that
horizon too much or beyond ourcapacity as a school of music to
do really, really well, then wewant to be careful and make
(25:40):
sure that we don't overextend orreplicate something that other
places might be doing better.
Right, I would much rather getout of the way or support a peer
school in their pursuit of someof the digital items like what
you might be talking about.
Elizabeth Bowman (25:54):
I find it interesting because, in terms of
the marketing role of VR Italked on the podcast about this
at some point I mean there's somany possibilities.
So I find you know, auniversity might have an actual
budget to do some of these likecrazy.
Obviously this has nothing todo with your educating your
(26:15):
music students, so, but in termsof the sponsors you may have
for the university, I mean itcould be fun.
Matthew Loden (26:23):
Well, just a couple of years ago established
a human performance center hereon campus through the school of
Natural Sciences, and it'sbasically set up in partnership
with the Texas Medical Center,which is just across the street
from Rice, and a lot of what thework is is measuring our
student athletes and using datafrom the way that they throw a
pitch or hit a tennis ball orkick a soccer ball, and they're
(26:46):
creating physical baselines fortrying to establish how they can
learn, how it can be a learningtool to throw the baseball
better, faster.
More of a curve, we have thesame opportunity to look at the
way a violist pulls the bowacross the string, and so, as a
teaching tool, I see things likethat sort of digital experience
(27:06):
in virtual reality as being anincredible, powerful new way of
looking at pedagogy and musicdefinitely.
Elizabeth Bowman (27:13):
Yeah, I mean with with how they're doing
these, these things in the videogames, even when they're
teaching.
I mean, I don't know anythingabout video games, so I
shouldn't even like venture intothis conversation.
I don't even allow them in myhouse, so, but I understand that
people are throwing balls andthings in other homes.
Matthew Loden (27:35):
Yeah, and if you're recovering from a stroke,
it's probably a lot more fun tothrow a ball in virtual reality
to get your muscle mass backthan it is to have, you know,
some physical therapistscreaming at you.
And there's a lot of wonderfulapplications, I'm sure.
But I don't have any videogames at home either.
Elizabeth Bowman (27:58):
In terms of your student body.
Do you have any partnershipswith other institutions around
North America or even around theworld?
Matthew Loden (28:01):
We do.
We have a number of both formaland informal partnerships.
In particular, I'm incrediblyproud of and grateful for the
artistic ecosystem that is herein Houston, texas.
Growing up here, what I thoughtwas just everyone's normal
experience to be exposed toastounding visual arts at the
(28:22):
Museum of Fine Arts or the MenilCollection or the Rothko Chapel
or elsewhere and the performingarts with the Houston Grand
Opera and the Houston Symphonyand the Hobby Center, I felt
like as a kid that was normaland what everyone had easy
access to.
And instead what I have foundas I've lived other places is
that not only is it incrediblyrare to have the variety and the
(28:45):
extraordinary level of artisticexpression in Houston, but we
have a culture built aroundengaging with that, and people
have an expectation thatsometimes they just want to be
entertained, but they alsoreally want to be moved and they
want to be proud of going tosomething in their own backyard
that could be seen anywhere inthe world and be important from
(29:07):
an artistic standpoint.
And so we have partnershipswith Houston Grand Opera and the
Houston Symphony.
I want to say something like 40%of the Houston Symphony is
populated with Shepherd Schoolgraduates.
Our Shepherd School graduatesare frequently on stage at
Houston Grand Opera.
We actually just had LaurenSnowford doing Breaking the
Waves and I remember when I wasthe director of admissions at
(29:27):
the Shepherd School for doingBreaking the Waves and I
remember when I was the directorof admissions at the Shepard
School we admitted her into theundergraduate program here and
so that kind of ease ofcollaboration and camaraderie
where the Shepard School can actas an early bridge to the
professional world.
But beyond that we can also actas a real opportunity for the
professional world to look atdifferently.
(29:48):
We did a world premiere withMatthew O'Coin Music for New
Bodies last year and hebasically came down and we had
an entire orchestra of studentswork with him on the podium
while the ink wasn't even dry todo a world premiere performance
and we could do that.
He was able to do that becausewe weren't the Cleveland
Orchestra charging him for twoweeks worth of rehearsals, right
(30:10):
, and you get a comparable levelof musical excellence and a lot
of these experiences and it'sfantastic for the students.
So we're very well positionedon the third coast that way and
we're very grateful for all ofthe artistic partners that we
have in town.
Elizabeth Bowman (30:25):
Tell me what's unique about the Shepard School
of Music we have in town.
Matthew Loden (30:29):
Tell me what's unique about the Shepard School
of Music?
First of all, I think the thingthat's special about us is that
we're a school of music that isvery much a part of Rice
University and Rice is a tierone research university and
renowned for its engineering,natural sciences, humanities and
beyond and Rice decided a longtime ago that they wanted to
have a world-class music school,and so the fact that we're able
to be on a campus like this andcross-pollinate with the
(30:53):
extraordinary faculty andprofessors and students that are
not naturally affiliated with aschool of music like ours, it
allows us to find new avenues todo creative research, new ways
to perform, and it helps usthink about how we approach our
music from the standpoint oflike how other disciplines
approach their own research, andso I think it's something that
(31:15):
also we're looking for a veryspecial type of unique student,
particularly at theundergraduate level, where, for
us, not only do you have tosuccessfully pass an audition to
get into the Shepard School,but you also have to
successfully be admitted to RiceUniversity, which has a pretty
high bar for academic excellence.
So we like to think that we'reable to attract extraordinarily
(31:36):
bright young minds who areincredibly talented and to help
steer them into a career inmusic where the kind of
influence that they ultimatelymight have in an ensemble or an
organization it might move farbeyond just what they do as
musicians.
They might be extraordinaryambassadors.
They might have incrediblechops around being community
(31:58):
ambassadors and working witheducational aspects of an
orchestra or an opera company,and so I think it's something
that is pretty unique and we'rehoping to continue to be unique,
stay small, stay bespoke and tokeep moving forward for the
next 50 years.
Elizabeth Bowman (32:13):
Matthew, thank you so much for doing this
podcast.
It's great to chat with youtoday.
Matthew Loden (32:17):
You too, Lizzie.
I appreciate the opportunity totalk about the Shepherd School
and look forward to hopefullyseeing you down here in Houston
sometime.
Maybe come to the rodeo.
Hi, I'm Elizabeth Bowman and welcome to
the Scene Room.
Today I have Matthew Loden, theDean of the Shepherd School of
Music at Rice University.
He was named to the position in2021 and came to Rice with an
abundance of experience as atalented musician and a strong
leader.
Matthew has had an illustriouscareer so far.
(00:20):
He was Vice President andGeneral Manager at the Aspen
Music Festival and School.
He served as interimco-president of the Philadelphia
Orchestra and as its executivevice president for institutional
advancement.
He was also the CEO of theToronto Symphony Orchestra
before he moved on to take thedeanship at the Shepard School
(00:44):
of Music.
If you're enjoying the podcast,please do like, share, review,
do any of those things.
It really helps keep theseconversations going.
I'm really looking forward tochatting with him today about
all that is happening at RiceUniversity.
So let's get to it.
Matthew.
Welcome to the scene room.
Thanks so much for coming.
Matthew Loden (01:04):
Oh, it's fabulous to be here.
Elizabeth Bowman (01:06):
Tell us where you're podcasting from today.
Matthew Loden (01:09):
Right now I'm on campus at Rice University, at
the Shepard School of Music.
In my office and I'm going toapologize in advance We've got a
building going up next door tome, so you might hear some
construction beeping here andthere.
Elizabeth Bowman (01:21):
And you've been at Rice since 2021.
Yes, that's an interestingtransition.
You know, obviously, the movinginto post-pandemic period, and
just can you tell me a littlebit about that?
Matthew Loden (01:34):
Yeah, 2021 was a homecoming for me.
My wife and I are actually bothnative Houstonians, and so we'd
been in Canada.
I was the CEO for the TorontoSymphony Orchestra and I want to
say we had about 18 months ofincredibly exciting activity in
Toronto, hiring Gustavo Gimenoto be the new music director
there and putting a lot ofimportant structures in place to
(01:54):
kind of help turn the placearound.
And then the pandemic hit, andso we had another 18 months
living through COVID-19.
Covid-19.
And one of the things that wasamazing about this opportunity
here at the Shepard School wasthat during the pandemic, the
Shepard School completed thefinal building project as part
of the long-term plan, which wasto put the Brockman Hall for
Opera in place, and so I knewthat, if I were lucky enough to
(02:16):
get this job as dean of theShepard School, an important
part of what I would be doing isopening up that building, and
that's exactly what we were ableto do in early 22.
Elizabeth Bowman (02:25):
Amazing.
Can I circle back to how yougot into arts administration in
the first place?
Because a lot of emerging orpeople thinking about careers in
the arts.
I love asking this question.
Matthew Loden (02:36):
Sure, I was incredibly lucky in that I was a
full-time professionalviolinist in New York and a lot
of other places, playing withdifferent orchestras and
Broadway shows, and had ateaching studio and was, like
you know, doing what you do whenyou're a violinist in New York
that way, and I had anopportunity to actually start an
orchestra.
So String Orchestra of New YorkCity is still alive Sonic and
(02:58):
the process of working withother colleagues to figure out
how to incorporate a board ofdirectors and how to do the
fundraising and the artisticplanning and the operational
work and how to put a New Yorkdebut performance together.
I loved that activity and Ifound that I could enjoy sort of
the creative aspects ofbuilding something like that in
(03:19):
the same kind of way I enjoysitting in a big orchestra doing
Mahler 3.
And it felt like that was anopportunity for me to have an
impact in a different kind ofway on the industry itself and
that essentially led to a seriesof wonderful opportunities.
I was the vice president andgeneral manager at the Aspen
Music Festival in school for sixor seven years and that's where
(03:40):
I got to really figure out sortof high-level, complex
operations five orchestras,three opera performances,
hundreds of performances forthousands of patrons over the
span of an eight or a nine-weekfestival in the summertime, and
that was just extraordinary,because the world of classical
music tends to land in Aspen atsome point in the summer one way
or another, and I was accruedaway from that bucolic,
(04:04):
wonderful life to go to grittyPhiladelphia when the
Philadelphia Orchestra was inChapter 11 bankruptcy
reorganization, and AlisonVolkermore hired me and Ryan
Fleur at the same time to bepart of an executive team to
figure out how to get theorchestra back on its feet, and
that was some seriouslychallenging work but incredibly
rewarding.
I'm so grateful for thatopportunity and also grateful
(04:26):
that Ryan is now heading up theenterprise in Philadelphia and
there's so much positive that'shappening there that it's nice
to be able to look back and feellike I had a little impact on
helping it be what it is now.
And then, from Philadelphia, Iwent to Toronto in 2018 and I
had an amazing time there.
Canada is such a phenomenalcountry and Toronto is one of my
favorite cities and made lotsof friends, and it's an
(04:48):
incredible orchestra.
But then you know, theopportunity to run a school of
music like the Shepherd School.
It comes once in a generationfor someone like me.
So I wasn't about to miss outon the opportunity to at least
try to get this gig.
Elizabeth Bowman (04:59):
That's a huge breadth of experience.
Now you've been at the ShepardSchool for a few years.
What are your priorities goingforward?
What's your vision?
Matthew Loden (05:08):
I joke with the faculty that the first part of
my vision is to not breakanything, because so much that
is here.
Unlike a lot of my pastexperience, where it was a lot
of crisis management kind offiguring out what to triage, how
to be managing in a situationwhere you're undercapitalized
and where it feels like everydecision that you make has some
(05:29):
kind of existential impact, hereat the Shepard School, we're
already building on someincredible strength.
First and foremost, the facultyis extraordinary, and so a big
part of what I have to do is tofigure out how to manage a
generational shift in thefaculty.
The folks that actually builtthis school and made it what it
is today.
Many of them are retiring, andso finding that next generation
(05:50):
of equally amazing faculty toattract incredible students is a
key task.
Aside from that, one of thethings that is just remarkably
exciting is that we do have thisnew Brockman Hall for Opera,
which is the second building atthe Shepard School, and I think
that we probably have moresquare footage per student than
probably any other school ofmusic in North America.
We only have 275 students in theentire program, and a big part
(06:14):
of our success has been that wehave limited our size very
intentionally and we haven't runafter the sort of the shiny
things in order to drive revenue, in order to bring in students
who are paying full tuition.
What we've done instead is triedreally hard to identify what we
do really well and to keepdoing that really well and make
sure that we are distinguishingourselves within a very
(06:35):
prescribed framework and goingforward.
Of course, the world changesand we want to be able to adapt
to that as nimbly as possible.
So we're looking at everythingfrom how can we engage
responsibly with AI and what isthat relationship with classical
music going to be like in thefuture?
What is it that we can do inorder to give our students
outside of the practice room theskills and the tools that they
(06:59):
need to actually engage withaudiences beyond the concert
hall?
And we want to make sure that,fundamentally, the craft and the
art of performing and writingand researching as musicologists
that that's fundamentallyintact and still at the highest
possible level.
Elizabeth Bowman (07:14):
I was going to ask you about entrepreneurship.
Obviously, today's artists haveto be entrepreneurs and they
have to be outward, facingpublic speakers, as well as
excellent at their craft.
So what kind ofentrepreneurship focus does your
school have?
Matthew Loden (07:31):
One of the ways that we are addressing that is
through a series ofconversations with our faculty
and with our students right nowto look at what are the kinds of
things that they feel like thestudents feel like they actually
want to engage with.
We do have some fantasticfaculty here who are really
quite adept at helping studentssometimes get out of their
comfort zone.
Right, if you're used tospending all of your time
playing the clarinet really wellin a practice room or in an
(07:53):
orchestra, you have to practice.
You have to practice gettingout in front of people and being
able to talk to them about yourart form.
So one of the things that we'vedone is we've engaged with the
Conc truck over the last coupleof seasons, which is a wonderful
third-party arts organizationthat has a box truck with a side
that drops down and turns intoa movable stage, and we've been
going all throughout the Houstoncommunity with our students and
(08:14):
treating that as a kind ofcreative laboratory, both for
the students to learn how toperform in spaces like parks or
museum parking lots or before abaseball game at Rice University
University and help themunderstand that part of their
responsibility in being amusician in this day and age is
to figure out how to communicateand how to share this art form
as much as possible and as muchas people are willing to listen.
(08:37):
I'm lucky enough myself to bethe professor of executive music
management, and so a big partof how I approach teaching
classes myself is not just thenuts and bolts of a spreadsheet
or the business enterprise of anopera company or a symphony
orchestra, but that individualsensibility that people have to
have as creative musicians toknow that you yourself are a
(08:58):
kind of enterprise, especiallyin your early years.
If you don't win that first biggig when you're 24, you might
be spending two or three yearsor more trying to figure out how
to be a musician, and we wantto equip the students with as
many of those tools as possible.
Elizabeth Bowman (09:12):
I love the concert truck idea.
My husband is one of theconcert masters of the
Metropolitan Opera and he wasactually originally discovered
by Richard Bradshaw, who was thegeneral director of the
Canadian Opera Company, when hewas busking outside of the St
Lawrence Market in Toronto.
He was just doing it with hisstring quartet, probably after a
(09:35):
heavy night of partying, andyou never know who's listening.
That's a lesson for thestudents listening who are
participating in this particularprogram, because really you
think, oh, it's just this truckgig, oh whatever, but you have
to treat every performance likeit's Carnegie Hall or anything,
(09:55):
because you just never knowwho's listening and what
opportunities are going to come.
Next thing he knew he wasassociate concertmaster at the
Canadian Opera Company rightaway.
I mean, of course he went toCurtis and he wasn't like yeah,
he had a background.
Matthew Loden (10:10):
One of the first places that we took the concert
truck was to the annual Rodeoand Livestock Show here, which
is, I think, the largest in theworld, and it attracts people of
all shapes and sizes andbackgrounds and interests.
And I have to say it was one ofthe coolest things to see our
students on the concert truck,sort of on the fairground at the
rodeo, surrounded by folks incowboy hats from Fort Worth and
(10:32):
other places who were thinking,oh, you know, maybe this will be
the Orange Blossom Special orsome kind of country music or
bluegrass vibe, and instead wewere doing straight ahead
classical music and they wereenthralled, they absolutely
loved the experience and theyloved the idea of seeing young
people who are so passionateabout this kind of art and this
work and this storytellingthrough music that is in so many
(10:55):
ways timeless.
And so we're very muchcommitted to making sure that we
find those opportunities forthe students and for the school
to kind of get out there and bea part of our community.
Elizabeth Bowman (11:04):
That raises also the fact that you're
focused on community outreach ina way that exposes people and
the word relevance comes intoplay a lot in this podcast and I
would say that you're bringingrelevance to what these kids are
studying and really the futureof classical music by going out
(11:24):
into the community and reachingout.
Matthew Loden (11:26):
You know, relevance is kind of a it's a
bit of a double-edged sword, Ofcourse like you want to matter
in the society in which you liveand you want to feel like other
people care about what you'retrying to express through any
kind of art form.
The double-edged sword of it,though, is that there is still
room, I believe, in this worldfor art, for art's sake and for
the pursuit of things that arejust achingly beautiful.
(11:48):
Right, and the pursuit of thatin and of itself sometimes
should be justification.
We don't always live in thatkind of world, especially in a
hyper-capitalistic society wherethe metrics are usually geared
around how much money are youmaking, how efficient are you
being, what's your productivitylike?
And I have found time and timeagain that when you get the
(12:09):
right kind of musical experiencelive musical experience, where
you have an audience and youhave musicians on stage
performing the transformationalkind of emotional moments that
people have are uplifting andcarry them beyond their thoughts
of gosh.
I don't know if my tax dollarsshould support this or not, and
instead it turns into how can Ibe a part of engaging with this
(12:34):
kind of enterprise?
Over and over and over again,because it is so valuable.
Once it hits, it hits and itsticks.
Elizabeth Bowman (12:40):
I used to help administrate a chamber music
festival in Greece and we wouldgo to small towns that had
basically zero exposure toclassical music, and the
musicians in this particularfestival were all first-rate
musicians who were enjoyingtheir holiday in Greece.
(13:01):
But we would go around and wewould fly her every day.
We'd go around and it was greatbeautiful weather, but a lot of
locals would come.
And also it was very funnybecause having a concert at nine
actually meant like it startsat 9.40, because you know, no
one would show up at nine, likethat wouldn't happen.
Anyway, sort of like adapt tothe way of the world there.
(13:25):
But yeah, they would come andthey they wouldn't know who
schubert was or what this mightsound like, and they were
enthralled and so, yeah, thereis that definitely that argument
as well, that when you'reperforming music or performing
any type of art, you'reexchanging energy between you
(13:46):
and that audience, and if that'sthe intention and the audience
is receiving it, then that's abeautiful, beautiful, oh yeah.
Matthew Loden (13:53):
Well, and so much of it is just about access and
exposure we actually share.
I didn't know that about yourGreek chamber music history.
I spent two summers in Turkey ina very similar kind of
situation where we would play inthe agora of a Roman ruin and
the Turkish farmers would showup to hear our Mendelssohn octet
and we played in like the Odeonat Troy.
(14:15):
And you know, having peoplewithout any kind of familiarity
for this art form show up andspend two hours listening to
something and then want to talkto you afterwards or figure out
how does your instrument makethat sound is incredibly
exciting.
It also reminds me of a bit ofan apocryphal story that when
Nixon asked the PhiladelphiaOrchestra and Eugene Ormandy to
be a part of opening up Chinaand as a part of ping pong
(14:38):
diplomacy he asked the orchestrato go over and tour China,
madame Mao was so enthralled andenamored with the idea of the
orchestra that she insisted thatevery single state radio
station live broadcast thePhiladelphia Orchestra all over
the country.
And Tan Dun still remembersbeing out in the fields and
listening for the first time toa Western symphony orchestra and
(15:02):
that was something that stuckand it gave us that kind of
artist in the world, justbecause he happened to be there
at the moment to experience thatmusic, and so I think that's an
important part of what ourroles and responsibilities
should be as we lead these kindsof institutions.
Elizabeth Bowman (15:17):
What do you believe young musicians need on
this topic sort of what do youthink that they need most to
sustain long and fulfillingcareers now, in this current
climate?
Matthew Loden (15:28):
I'll be very general, right.
I mean, my normal responsewould be well, it just.
It depends on the musician,right.
It depends on the young artist,where they are, how they're
wired, what their skillset is.
But very generally, I think andthe discipline is not so much
about spending five hours a dayin the practice room, I think of
it as a discipline aroundconstantly asking the right
questions.
It's difficult to get answers toa lot of questions.
(15:50):
It could be a technical thingthat you're trying to solve, it
can be a musical expressionyou're trying to make, it might
be figuring out how to navigatesome aspect of the professional
field, but it's the questioningand the curiosity about the art
itself that, I think, is a bitof a superpower and will keep
you engaged, because resilienceis the other thing that you have
(16:10):
to have in this business.
So if you're asking enoughquestions, you're seeking the
right answers, if you'reresilient and you give yourself
permission to fail time and timeagain and keep getting back up
and getting better and learningfrom your mistakes, that is
going to be, I think, a nicerecipe for success.
And finally, I think, artisticand intellectual humility.
We sometimes spend an awful lotof time as musicians digging
(16:35):
very, very deeply into a scoreor into the sensibility of a
particular work, and we have tohave a kind of almost
egotistical confidence in orderto put it out in the world right
.
You have to know what you'redoing.
There's no safety net whenyou're by yourself on stage.
But we also have to understandthat we don't really always have
the answers, and sometimes wedon't come close to having as
(16:58):
many of the answers as we thinkwe do.
And so when you can approachthings where you're always
seeking and you're notconstantly assuming that you've
got it figured out, I think thatcan lead to an incredibly
rewarding and rich life, notjust a profession, but that's
just a good way to move throughthe world.
Elizabeth Bowman (17:13):
I totally agree.
I mean, especially when you'relistening to new works or you're
looking at new creations of artin general, like there's only
one way to come at it and that'swith a completely open mind as
to how you're going toexperience it, because otherwise
you'll just be like, oh, thisis just noise or this.
(17:34):
You know, because the firsttime you hear something, it's
difficult.
People don't like change.
Like if you look at howobviously music has transformed
through time and how long ittook us to get to dissonance,
that must have sounded wrong atfirst.
And now there's somesatisfaction in having those
dissonances and then resolve.
Matthew Loden (17:55):
I tell my students and myself quite
frankly that anytime I'mengaging a new work of art, that
my job is to assume that it isactually a masterpiece.
And if you start from thestandpoint of assuming that
anything new has that kind ofarchitecture and craft and
thought behind it, then you canbe completely critical and you
can decide.
This is absolutely not thething for me.
(18:16):
But if you position yourselfexpecting that it's going to
matter, that it's worth yourtime, it tends to open up your
ears and your brain a little bitmore successfully.
Elizabeth Bowman (18:26):
And to assume that, if you walk into a
situation and only assume thatyour perspective is what matters
, that's also dangerous in termsof art and in terms of having a
healthy conversation about whatit is that you're seeing and
experiencing.
Matthew Loden (18:42):
Well, I mean, art is ultimately about translation
between people, right, and weall acknowledge one way or
another, we have the same humancondition.
We have the same humancondition.
We have the same foibles, thesame hopes and dreams.
We want to be safe and warm andloved and a part of a tribe,
and finding different mechanismsto express those feelings is
(19:02):
the motivation for every greatwork of art.
And so why wouldn't we payattention to how open we need to
be with all of those kinds ofexperiences?
Elizabeth Bowman (19:10):
Earlier you mentioned that you're looking
into AI the relationship betweenmusicians and AI.
What do you mean by that?
Matthew Loden (19:23):
We're very nascently beginning to explore
things.
Right now there's anopportunity for a bit of a final
sort of capital project here atthe Shepard School to build out
one of our black box theatersinto a real technology media hub
that I'm excited about puttingin place and through the early
exploration of how we might wantto populate that space, we're
thinking about how do we want toshape our curriculum in a way
where maybe we think aboutasking students for a degree
(19:45):
recital instead of just doingwhat would be considered the
normal recital, where you do aconcert, know a concerto, a
sonata, or you know somethingthat is traditional and familiar
.
Maybe there's a media componentthat we need to pay attention
to, a video component, animagery, or maybe there's a way
that students can intersect withAI and find new ways of
(20:06):
expressing themselves.
I don't know the answers, Ijust know that, again, kind of
back to the idea of that, weknow those are the questions to
ask and I think that there'slike with any new technology
people are unsure or frightenedor worried about the impact.
You know, singer-song writersare now going to be out of
business because AI can writebetter songs than humans.
(20:27):
In the classical music world.
It's relatively easy tounderstand from a machine
learning standpoint what theVivaldi Four Seasons sounds like
and just keep generatingVivaldi sounding Baroque stuff
through AI.
The thing that I'm excitedabout actually with AI is that
we don't even really know whatcan be done, and we don't know
(20:49):
what new ways of creating sound,new ways of engaging with
traditional orchestral oroperatic experiences I think
that we're really at thebeginning of that frontier and I
think we have to be careful.
And I do think that there is alegitimate concern about
copyright infringement and theway in which musicians need to
continue to find the bestpossible ways for their creation
(21:12):
to be monetized whenappropriate, and so there's a
lot to be figured out, but I'mhopeful that a lot of the
universities and the greatconservatories and schools of
music will be leading the way insome of those conversations.
Elizabeth Bowman (21:22):
Yeah, and as you should.
You're a university, you'remeant to be thought leaders, and
in being a thought leader, youneed to explore even the dark
side of things, like you can'tjust make precepts without
knowing why.
So, and part of learning therules for how to play is
learning how to break them aswell.
Right, and learning that that'snot OK, and that's just part of
(21:46):
studying and thought leadership.
Matthew Loden (21:47):
One of the interesting.
I don't know if it's anadvantage or not, but the
reality is you can't actuallyfake it as a performer in this
industry, right?
So AI might help a contemporarycomposer shape a phrase in a
different way, and we might.
We'd never know about it.
But if your job is as atranslator of musical art, as an
(22:09):
instrumentalist or as a singeror whatever, you're not going to
be able to fake it, right?
And so I find that refreshing,and I also find it's a bit of an
opportunity for us to continueto put forward what it means to
be a live musician in real timein front of a live audience,
where all you're doing issetting up everything you've
learned how to do on stage andthen people get to enjoy it, and
(22:32):
that sort of anachronistic wayof sharing music in this day and
age.
I think people respect that.
I think there's a wholegeneration of kids that I have a
23-year-old daughter, and themusic that she's been exposed to
, the variety of genres of worldmusic we've never had that
before in the world and so shedoesn't have nearly the kind of
(22:55):
societal baggage that peoplefrom my generation would have
grown up with around differenttypes of music or what classical
music was or wasn't, and theelitism of all of that, and so I
think there's a generationcoming up that really gets
excited about seeing their peersdo this stuff.
Live.
Elizabeth Bowman (23:13):
When it comes to AI and creativity and
performance and that kind ofthing, well, we all talk about
the X factor that makes a greatperformance great.
Even if you have a technicallyexcellent delivery, it doesn't
necessarily mean that youraudience is going to be moved
right.
And that's the same thing withcomputer generated creations.
(23:36):
I believe I'm not going to sayI mean, that is my belief that
you need to have the soul behindit and then the soul travels
through that voice or instrumentto that audience in order for
them to have those goosebumps orthe things that they feel,
because I am not sure why, butthat's just like we're sharing
(23:58):
some sort of consciousness whenwe perform and that can't be
replaced by a computer.
It just can't.
Matthew Loden (24:04):
I couldn't agree more.
It's interesting, though,because you also have to take
into account what the audienceis expecting right?
If you also have to take intoaccount what the audience is
expecting, right.
If you come from within theindustry, like we do, then you
are constantly seeking out deepmusical moments and points of
connection, and that's kind ofyour barometer, right.
But if you are at a wedding andyou just want to dance or have
(24:25):
background music, thenAI-generated tunes that sound
like you know, michael Jacksonor Chicago, like that, might
actually be okay, and so I thinkthat we have to be equally
careful about not only ourjudgment around how the music is
being generated, but also likewhat's it for, where is it going
(24:45):
and who's going to be listening, and sometimes you can get a
different answer.
Elizabeth Bowman (24:48):
Yeah, that is thought-provoking.
Speaking of digital, are youalso exploring maybe virtual
reality and stuff like that?
Matthew Loden (24:56):
We will eventually get to the point
where we have the bandwidth andthe resources to further explore
virtual reality.
I know that there's a lot ofwonderful work that's being done
at other schools and otheruniversities.
I think that there's probably acommercial aspect of that that
can be very appealing.
Again, it kind of comes back tothe early.
Tenants of the Shepard Schoolwere very much when we were
(25:18):
created in 1975.
We're celebrating our 50thanniversary right now.
We were designed to be a verysmall, bespoke kind of musical
school and when we begin to lookat things that broaden that
horizon too much or beyond ourcapacity as a school of music to
do really, really well, then wewant to be careful and make
(25:40):
sure that we don't overextend orreplicate something that other
places might be doing better.
Right, I would much rather getout of the way or support a peer
school in their pursuit of someof the digital items like what
you might be talking about.
Elizabeth Bowman (25:54):
I find it interesting because, in terms of
the marketing role of VR Italked on the podcast about this
at some point I mean there's somany possibilities.
So I find you know, auniversity might have an actual
budget to do some of these likecrazy.
Obviously this has nothing todo with your educating your
(26:15):
music students, so, but in termsof the sponsors you may have
for the university, I mean itcould be fun.
Matthew Loden (26:23):
Well, just a couple of years ago established
a human performance center hereon campus through the school of
Natural Sciences, and it'sbasically set up in partnership
with the Texas Medical Center,which is just across the street
from Rice, and a lot of what thework is is measuring our
student athletes and using datafrom the way that they throw a
pitch or hit a tennis ball orkick a soccer ball, and they're
(26:46):
creating physical baselines fortrying to establish how they can
learn, how it can be a learningtool to throw the baseball
better, faster.
More of a curve, we have thesame opportunity to look at the
way a violist pulls the bowacross the string, and so, as a
teaching tool, I see things likethat sort of digital experience
(27:06):
in virtual reality as being anincredible, powerful new way of
looking at pedagogy and musicdefinitely.
Elizabeth Bowman (27:13):
Yeah, I mean with with how they're doing
these, these things in the videogames, even when they're
teaching.
I mean, I don't know anythingabout video games, so I
shouldn't even like venture intothis conversation.
I don't even allow them in myhouse, so, but I understand that
people are throwing balls andthings in other homes.
Matthew Loden (27:35):
Yeah, and if you're recovering from a stroke,
it's probably a lot more fun tothrow a ball in virtual reality
to get your muscle mass backthan it is to have, you know,
some physical therapistscreaming at you.
And there's a lot of wonderfulapplications, I'm sure.
But I don't have any videogames at home either.
Elizabeth Bowman (27:58):
In terms of your student body.
Do you have any partnershipswith other institutions around
North America or even around theworld?
Matthew Loden (28:01):
We do.
We have a number of both formaland informal partnerships.
In particular, I'm incrediblyproud of and grateful for the
artistic ecosystem that is herein Houston, texas.
Growing up here, what I thoughtwas just everyone's normal
experience to be exposed toastounding visual arts at the
(28:22):
Museum of Fine Arts or the MenilCollection or the Rothko Chapel
or elsewhere and the performingarts with the Houston Grand
Opera and the Houston Symphonyand the Hobby Center, I felt
like as a kid that was normaland what everyone had easy
access to.
And instead what I have foundas I've lived other places is
that not only is it incrediblyrare to have the variety and the
(28:45):
extraordinary level of artisticexpression in Houston, but we
have a culture built aroundengaging with that, and people
have an expectation thatsometimes they just want to be
entertained, but they alsoreally want to be moved and they
want to be proud of going tosomething in their own backyard
that could be seen anywhere inthe world and be important from
(29:07):
an artistic standpoint.
And so we have partnershipswith Houston Grand Opera and the
Houston Symphony.
I want to say something like 40%of the Houston Symphony is
populated with Shepherd Schoolgraduates.
Our Shepherd School graduatesare frequently on stage at
Houston Grand Opera.
We actually just had LaurenSnowford doing Breaking the
Waves and I remember when I wasthe director of admissions at
(29:27):
the Shepherd School for doingBreaking the Waves and I
remember when I was the directorof admissions at the Shepard
School we admitted her into theundergraduate program here and
so that kind of ease ofcollaboration and camaraderie
where the Shepard School can actas an early bridge to the
professional world.
But beyond that we can also actas a real opportunity for the
professional world to look atdifferently.
(29:48):
We did a world premiere withMatthew O'Coin Music for New
Bodies last year and hebasically came down and we had
an entire orchestra of studentswork with him on the podium
while the ink wasn't even dry todo a world premiere performance
and we could do that.
He was able to do that becausewe weren't the Cleveland
Orchestra charging him for twoweeks worth of rehearsals, right
(30:10):
, and you get a comparable levelof musical excellence and a lot
of these experiences and it'sfantastic for the students.
So we're very well positionedon the third coast that way and
we're very grateful for all ofthe artistic partners that we
have in town.
Elizabeth Bowman (30:25):
Tell me what's unique about the Shepard School
of Music we have in town.
Matthew Loden (30:29):
Tell me what's unique about the Shepard School
of Music?
First of all, I think the thingthat's special about us is that
we're a school of music that isvery much a part of Rice
University and Rice is a tierone research university and
renowned for its engineering,natural sciences, humanities and
beyond and Rice decided a longtime ago that they wanted to
have a world-class music school,and so the fact that we're able
to be on a campus like this andcross-pollinate with the
(30:53):
extraordinary faculty andprofessors and students that are
not naturally affiliated with aschool of music like ours, it
allows us to find new avenues todo creative research, new ways
to perform, and it helps usthink about how we approach our
music from the standpoint oflike how other disciplines
approach their own research, andso I think it's something that
(31:15):
also we're looking for a veryspecial type of unique student,
particularly at theundergraduate level, where, for
us, not only do you have tosuccessfully pass an audition to
get into the Shepard School,but you also have to
successfully be admitted to RiceUniversity, which has a pretty
high bar for academic excellence.
So we like to think that we'reable to attract extraordinarily
(31:36):
bright young minds who areincredibly talented and to help
steer them into a career inmusic where the kind of
influence that they ultimatelymight have in an ensemble or an
organization it might move farbeyond just what they do as
musicians.
They might be extraordinaryambassadors.
They might have incrediblechops around being community
(31:58):
ambassadors and working witheducational aspects of an
orchestra or an opera company,and so I think it's something
that is pretty unique and we'rehoping to continue to be unique,
stay small, stay bespoke and tokeep moving forward for the
next 50 years.
Elizabeth Bowman (32:13):
Matthew, thank you so much for doing this
podcast.
It's great to chat with youtoday.
Matthew Loden (32:17):
You too, Lizzie.
I appreciate the opportunity totalk about the Shepherd School
and look forward to hopefullyseeing you down here in Houston
sometime.
Maybe come to the rodeo.
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