November 10, 2025 • 41 mins
In this episode Melisa and her son Jamie to share their inspiring story with host, Leisa Reichelt. Jamie, who struggled with conventional schooling due to autism and other challenges, found an unconventional but successful educational pathway.
Despite difficulties including bullying, sensory challenges and a lack of support in school, Jamie flourished through home education, ultimately enrolling in university at a young age and recently earning a Rhodes Scholarship to Oxford.
We explore the challenges and successes of their journey, including the importance of education redesigned to suit the learning needs of the individual, and the strength required from parents and children in navigating 'School Can't' scenarios.
If you're a parent or carer facing similar challenges, this episode offers a beacon of hope and practical insights.
00:00 Introduction to the School Can't Experience Podcast
00:53 Meet Melisa and Jamie: A Unique Educational Journey
02:53 Early Struggles with Conventional Schooling
07:50 The Turning Point: Year Four and Beyond
16:16 Transition to Homeschooling
24:29 Discovering a Pathway to University
32:50 Achieving Academic Success and Beyond
38:04 Final Thoughts and Advice for Parents
Recommended Resources
- Theresa Kidd: https://www.kiddclinic.com.au/
- Open Universities Australia: https://www.open.edu.au/
- School Can’t Australia Facebook Community - https://www.facebook.com/groups/schoolphobiaschoolrefusalaustralia
- Make a donation to School Can’t Australia - https://www.schoolcantaustralia.com.au/get-involved
If you are a parent of carer in Australia and experiencing distress, please call Lifeline on 13 11 14 or contact the Parent Help Line. - https://kidshelpline.com.au/parents/issues/how-parentline-can-help-you
You can contact us to volunteer to share your School Can't story or some feedback via email on schoolcantpodcast@gmail.com
Disclaimer
The content of this podcast is based on personal lived experiences and is shared for informational and storytelling purposes only. It should not be treated as medical, psychological, or professional advice under any circumstances. If you have concerns about your health or well-being, please seek guidance from a doctor, therapist, or other qualified professional.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Leisa Reichelt (00:05):
Hello and welcome to the School Can't
Experience Podcast.
I am Leisa Reichelt, and thispodcast is brought to you by the
School Can't Australiacommunity.
Caring for a young person who'sstruggling to attend school can
be a stressful and isolatingexperience, but you are not
alone.
Thousands of parents acrossAustralia and many more around
the world face similarchallenges and experiences every
(00:25):
day.
Today we have another delightfulconversation with a parent and
their young person.
We are joined by mum, Melisa,and her son Jamie, who are
sharing their experience ofSchool Can't and how this has
led to our unconventional butsuccessful educational pathway
for Jamie.
A content warning.
We do touch on topics ofphysical assault at school, so
(00:46):
please take care when listeningand reach out for support if you
need it.
I hope you enjoy thisconversation with Melisa and
Jamie.
Well, Melisa and Jamie, thankyou so much for joining us for
our podcast today.
We're delighted to have you andexcited to hear your story.
Melisa (01:01):
Thanks, Leisa.
Jamie (01:02):
Thank you.
We're happy to be here.
Leisa Reichelt (01:05):
Let us start with a bit of general context
for you.
Can you tell us a little bitabout yourselves and what what
do we need to know about you?
Melisa (01:13):
Do you wanna go first, Jamie?
Jamie (01:16):
Sure.
At the moment I am a theoreticalphysics student.
Actually just had my last examlast week, so about to finish my
degree.
Leisa Reichelt (01:27):
Congratulations.
Jamie (01:29):
Thank you.
I'm very happy about not havingany more exams.
I entered University throughquite an unconventional pathway
because I actually didn't go tohigh school in the conventional
sense.
I homeschooled since I was 11,because of challenges with
(01:49):
conventional schooling that I'msure we will discuss very soon.
Leisa Reichelt (01:53):
How old are you now, Jamie?
Jamie (01:55):
18
Leisa Reichelt (01:57):
Lovely.
Tell us about yourself, Melisa
Melisa (02:00):
I'm Jamie's mum and I've been on the wild ride with him,
which has been not as easy as itsounds when Jamie explains it
like that.
But it's been wonderful andwe're at this really fantastic
end of it where things have cometogether so well for us, even
though we're a bit bruised andbattered from the journey.
Leisa Reichelt (02:20):
Tell us a bit about the the family.
Have you got siblings, Jamie?
Jamie (02:24):
Yes, I have a younger sister called Lily, who's in the
next door room now as we speak.
Leisa Reichelt (02:30):
And what about you, Melisa?
Are you are a working mum?
Yeah.
Melisa (02:33):
There was a lot of time where I didn't work.
I'm a nurse, a pediatric nurse,child health nurse and a
midwife.
And was working in education.
For a long time I was only ableto do little bits and pieces,
but in a academic setting, Icould just go in and do small
amounts of work over this periodof time where we struggled with
school.
Leisa Reichelt (02:54):
Alright, well, let's tell this story.
Where do you think it starts?
I might ask you, Melisa, wheredo you think the story starts?
Melisa (03:03):
Well, Jamie, right from the outset, was uncomfortable
about leaving me.
When I was pregnant with mydaughter and I tried this little
daycare around the corner, hewas just not interested, did not
want to separate.
And then starting school, it wasjust the same.
He took a lot of reassuranceevery day.
He was just not comfortable withit.
(03:25):
And people would tell me, he'lleventually just love it.
Give him some time.
We had some limited amounts ofsuccess along the way with a lot
of structure around it, but itnever really clicked.
We'd have moments of an amazingteacher or a friendship that was
supporting him.
But it was always really tricky.
(03:47):
It didn't really escalate untilhe was around year four, where,
it was very, very difficultgetting Jamie to school with so
much structure around.
And it just kept getting worsefrom there.
Leisa Reichelt (04:02):
When you say you know it was possible with
structure around it, what do youmean by structure?
Melisa (04:06):
mean, it would take us hours to get ready in the
morning.
There was lots of games andlightheartedness.
Even just with kindy, it wouldbe when you finish, we'll go and
see the car wash and those kindsof things.
And I was on, eggshells outsidethe whole time, hoping that he'd
had a good time and that then wecould see the car wash.
Leisa Reichelt (04:25):
The carwash was the treat.
Yeah.
Melisa (04:26):
the treat.
Leisa Reichelt (04:29):
That's so cute.
of those early days, Jamie?
Jamie (04:33):
Well, I completely concur with everything mum just said.
I would like to add actually forsome context that although we do
know now that I was autistic, wedid not know that at the time.
Because I didn't get mydiagnosis until I was 12.
Which I think is, is importantcontext for a lot of those early
(04:54):
struggles, you know?
I did find the world to be muchmore of an overwhelming place
than would be considered normal,I guess, for someone of that
age.
My earliest memories of going tokindy were just, I remember the
first time I went I didn'treally understand what was going
(05:15):
on and I was sort of like, okay,there's all of these people.
I'm not entirely sure who theyare, but, that's okay.
I can try and find out.
Then everything sort of wentdownhill very fast when mum left
and I realized that, mumwouldn't be there with me.
And, that didn't really geteasier with time.
Melisa (05:35):
So we had, psychologists involved right from when he was
three or four.
I think he must have been a verydifficult picture to diagnose
because although autism wasraised as a possibility from the
outset, we were just told no, hewouldn't meet criteria.
He and I were very close and Ithink that confused a diagnosis
(05:55):
for a long time.
I think it also perpetuated thiskind of understanding that I
might be part of the problem.
That it might have been mydifficulty with letting go of
Jamie.
So I think that we were sort ofmisdiagnosed.
Leisa Reichelt (06:08):
that, That was that it possibly your fault for
not letting go well enough, thatwas that what psychologists were
saying to you.
Melisa (06:17):
teachers, stories that you hear often, it's because
he's worried about you duringthe day and your mental state.
And, I just remember saying toso many people, I don't actually
think I'm anxious, but the wholeworld is telling me it's
probably my anxiety that'scausing Jamie's difficulties.
And so it was very hard for meto kind of understand what was
(06:37):
going on.
Jamie (06:39):
I'd like to add as well.
It's one of the things that doesupset me is it seems like I
often hear of parents orparticularly mothers being
blamed and I have very littlepatience with those people.
It's really, quite a horriblepart of human psychology to want
to do that.
Leisa Reichelt (06:58):
I don't think you'll have many people
listening, Jamie, who willdisagree with you on that.
Thanks for your support.
yeah, it must have been a prettytorrid time.
Melisa, was it, as you weretrying to work out what was
going on and how best to supportJamie?
Melisa (07:12):
I've heard people say before, Leisa, these big voices
from the school and psychology Iwas doing my best.
I've got a level of educationmyself around development.
I was doing my absolute best, tofit this model and make these
things fit and they just werenot fitting.
it took me a long time to getthe confidence to just say, no,
(07:33):
I'm not listening anymore.
That I think I know better.
Leisa Reichelt (07:38):
What was your experience like at school,
Melisa Did you thrive at school?
Melisa (07:42):
No, but I had a difficult family background.
So I didn't speak up, I just goton with things.
Leisa Reichelt (07:50):
Alright, so we managed as best we could until
year four.
You said things really escalatedin year four.
Tell me about that.
What happened then?
Jamie (08:01):
Well, my memory is up till year four, the things that
I struggled with were not niceto go through.
But on the whole, I still felt Iwas reasonably safe in that
environment, as in, I wasbullied in the sense that other
kids would say unkind things tome, but that's sort of where it
(08:24):
stopped.
Leisa Reichelt (08:25):
Hmm.
Jamie (08:26):
I think that really started to change around year
four.
I would actually say more yearfive.
That started to change as someof those other kids grew older.
Leisa Reichelt (08:37):
You wanna talk us through a little bit about
how that changed.
Jamie (08:41):
Um, I guess just, just more things started happening
that would go beyond just sayingunkind things, but actually turn
into, violent actions.
I remember during that timearound year four or five, I
would beg every morning to notgo to school because I don't
think there are many livingcreatures that would willingly
(09:04):
walk into an environment Yeah.
I would actually argue towardsthe end, I was physically
unsafe.
Leisa Reichelt (09:10):
How did the school respond to this?
I presume that you were talkingwith teachers about what was
going on.
Melisa (09:17):
Yeah, so socially there had been difficulties all the
way through primary school.
There'd be these flareups orthese difficulties with a
particular child and we'd pullthe parents in and I was led to
understand that these wereloving, lovely parents and that
maybe Jamie was provoking thesesituations or in the wrong place
(09:37):
at the wrong time.
We'd set up spaces in thelibrary where he could go and
were sort of constructing waysof Jamie finding safer spots.
But in the school that he wasin, going from year four into
year five, it's a middle schoolmodel.
So they're moving out of theirclassroom more and there's less
supervision.
And I think that's probably whysome of these things escalated
(10:00):
then.
Leisa Reichelt (10:01):
What you're what you're saying I think, is that
ultimately the school didn't doanything effectively
Melisa (10:05):
It was almost like Jamie was provoking these situations
and I was creating these, youknow, I was overactive to these
situations that Jamie wasreporting to me.
Jamie (10:16):
I would like to point out though that there, at least from
my memory, there were somepeople at the school who
genuinely did care and genuinelydid try to help.
The problem is that there were alot more people who I don't
think did.
Melisa (10:34):
Yeah.
It was quite dismissive.
The school, I guess they weredoing their best, but it was a
bigger problem than maybe theyrealized.
We had a change of head of thatmiddle school.
And he was new and didn'tunderstand.
He actually said to us thatthere was a culture of bullying
around Jamie that he was unableto change.
And so that plus a few otherthings intellectually Jamie was
(10:57):
asking to access different kindof content, and he was
restricted often because hewouldn't complete the reading or
he wasn't there on that day or,he wasn't allowed to get a pen
license because his writing wasmessy with a pencil.
And, those kinds of things thatjust made sensory things for
Jamie that just made everythingabout being at school much more
(11:19):
hard for him.
So it was those two thingscoming together that made me
brave enough to realize thatnothing was working in that
environment.
Leisa Reichelt (11:28):
Tell me more about the learning side of
things, Jamie.
In terms of school as a learningexperience for you in those
years, what was that like?
Jamie (11:35):
I did want to comment on that actually.
A lot of people these days sortof ask me, did you leave school
because it was too easy for you,because you just did everything
and went so far ahead?
But actually, no.
I think in a lot of people'seyes, I would've been a very
poor student.
A lot of them would even havelooked at me perhaps as like a,
(11:58):
as, as a dumb student, because Ihave dysgraphia as well.
So my writing at the time, Icould barely write.
And when I did write, it was notlegible to many people.
As a result, and, and also justwith there, because there are
programs designed to extendchildren who are interested in
(12:19):
learning more things.
But I wasn't really able to beinvolved in any of them because
they occurred in environmentswhere I wouldn't be able to cope
or, just that I wouldn't beallowed because of my
handwriting or things like that.
Leisa Reichelt (12:38):
When you say that the the extension
activities were held in placesthat you couldn't really access.
Can you talk a little bit aboutwhat were they like that made
them inaccessible to you?
Jamie (12:50):
There's quite a few, and one that I remember pretty
clearly is ICAS tests.
I think that's what they'recalled, that I was involved in
every year.
And my understanding is thoseare sort of like an optional
extension, is that right?
Those were very traditional penand paper exam settings, and,
back then of course I had prettymuch no supports, none of the
(13:13):
accommodations that have allowedme to do better in those sorts
of tests at university.
So yeah, I really, I couldn'tperform in that sort of
situation.
Leisa Reichelt (13:25):
Knowing what you know now, Jamie, what are the
kinds of accommodations that youwould've needed to have been
able to participate in that.
Jamie (13:33):
I think, to be honest, at the time with all the other
challenges, I just wasn't in theframe of mind anyway to be able
to do things like that.
But assuming that I wasn't, theaccommodations that helped me
are to have extra time to managemy slower writing speed and to
write things neater.
Having rest breaks, having aseparate venue and being able to
(13:55):
bring something like a tactileobject to fidget with are all
things that have helped me.
Melisa (14:01):
Can I share, also Leisa, Jamie has been able to do a lot
of his complex mathematicalexams at uni on a whiteboard,
which is a bigger pen, and it'sa very different hand action.
And the other thing Jamie'sexplained to me is if he makes a
mistake in an equation reallyearly on, he can correct it so
quickly.
Whereas on paper, he feels likehe has to rewrite.
(14:22):
And so the strength and theenergy goes into forming the
calculations and the writingrather than the thought behind
it.
Leisa Reichelt (14:30):
Wow, that's such a clever idea, isn't it?
Melisa (14:33):
But even, when Jamie was in year four, he wanted to learn
calculus.
There was a boy in his classaccessing high school maths at
the time.
Jamie really wanted to do that.
I was told by the teachers thatthere was some really basic
foundational things that hecouldn't do that would not allow
him then to progress.
And what we've discovered withJamie through homeschooling is
that it feeds his brain to havethose really complex things, and
(14:56):
he learns the basic foundationshimself.
And like he'll problem solve andgo, oh, in order to do that, I
need to be able to multiply twodigit numbers.
And so then he'll learn thatconcept himself.
It was just that model ofbuilding on top of a foundation
each year that was repeatingJamie had to repeat through
these really tedious, difficultthings for him to learn, and he
(15:19):
wasn't accessing the deeperthought that he was wanting.
Leisa Reichelt (15:24):
that's the motivation is such a powerful
force for learning, isn't it?
I was talking to someone theother day, they were telling me
about their son who's learningsome computer science, and it's
like if he has to go through theintroductory material before he
gets to the exercise, he justswitches off and can't do it,
but throw him straight in theexercise and then he'll go back
and reference the introductorystuff to solve the problem that
(15:45):
he's trying to solve.
And it's completely differentlearning design.
One way works very powerfullyfor him, and the other way just
makes him kind of cut off fromlearning altogether.
Melisa (15:57):
It makes me think.
I'm not sure if a schoolenvironment would ever actually
be able to cater for that typeof learning, but I do think they
need to appreciate that noteverybody learns in that
traditional way.
Leisa Reichelt (16:09):
So year five, the wheels kind of fell off.
Attending school becameextremely difficult.
Jamie (16:16):
Yes.
Leisa Reichelt (16:16):
Tell me a little bit about how that kind of came
to a head and how you moved intoa different way of learning.
Jamie (16:23):
Things sort of continued like that through year five and
six.
There was a brief period in yearfive where I went to part-time
schooling, which helped for thedays that I was not at school,
but for the days that I was atschool, it sort of exacerbated
the perceived difference that Ifeel like was the root cause of
(16:47):
the bullying.
Then in year six, went back tofull-time school.
Same things continued, and thenpartway through year six, we
moved to another school.
That one had more of aMontessori model.
So academically, I think thatsuited me better because I was
(17:07):
left to learn about what Iwanted to learn about.
The learning side was a bitbetter, but the problem is the
social side, very quickly thesame issues emerged.
And I guess that sort of taughtus that that would happen
anywhere we went.
And yeah, eventually severalvery bad things happened again.
Melisa (17:30):
Mm.
Jamie (17:31):
And that was when I just couldn't go anymore.
And mum and dad agreed to tryhomeschooling.
Melisa (17:38):
We had a very small window of tolerance with the
second school, so as soon as oneor two situations happened, we
were out of there.
Leisa Reichelt (17:45):
What were you thinking, Melisa, as you were
pulling out of one school,trying another one...
Melisa (17:50):
That was really hard you know, because in retrospect, I
just don't think any of us wereready to go back into a
different learning environmentso soon.
Jamie was quite traumatized.
I think we all were.
For me, the same thingsoccurring in a different school
just made me feel like it wasus.
It was me, it was us.
That was a really, verydepressing thought because I had
(18:12):
been thinking it was the schooland what was going on in the
school environment that was theproblem.
But at least, it gave me thestrength to know that we had no
other option.
We had to try and makehomeschool work and we focused
really on repairing andrebuilding with Jamie.
I actually really loved it.
Those early days ofhomeschooling where I just felt
(18:33):
like he was three again, and,his learning came alive again.
We rebuilt that relationship andhad fun together.
That was lovely, but scary.
Very scary.
Leisa Reichelt (18:44):
You didn't set out, intending to home educate.
What was your process of gettingyour head around the fact that
you were gonna do it and thenhow you were gonna approach it?
Melisa (18:54):
The decision easy to make because we had no other
alternative.
And, you know, being a healthprofessional, I could see that
Jamie's mental health and myown, our whole family was
crumbling.
We were a family in crisis.
So we had no other alternative.
I thought we would nurture andrepair and build our
relationships again.
(19:14):
I knew Jamie loved learning, andI knew he had capacity to learn,
and I just thought, we'll dothat.
And, so luckily we had amoderator that really suited or
really supported that.
She sort of helped us find a waythat we could deschool or follow
Jamie's interests.
And I just pitched lots ofdifferent ideas to him.
(19:35):
The schooling was second tore-forming the relationships and
things initially.
With maths, I was conscious thathe might have had to follow the
same content that he might coverin school in case he ever did go
back.
But I knew that the way he'dbeen learning before, in school
hadn't suited him.
So I sought out tutors that weregonna meet Jamie.
(19:57):
Rebuild those relationships andshare something that they loved.
So we found a tutor that wasreally interested in physics and
Jamie loved physics and wasn'tso keen on maths.
And so we asked her to show himthe maths in the physics.
And that just opened up thatworld for Jamie.
And then I found another tutorwho had homeschooled for a while
(20:17):
herself.
She was hilarious.
She'd sit there with Jamie witha textbook and just flip to a
page and say, try that.
He'd do one, she'd flip to thenext chapter, try that.
And they jumped through thiswhole curriculum in weeks.
So Jamie really progressed veryquickly and started to really
enjoy it.
So, we got tutors for those mainsubjects and explored the world
(20:39):
went to museums and learnedabout life and buying things
from the shop and ironing shirtsand things like that, in the
meantime.
Leisa Reichelt (20:48):
Did it take much time from when you finished at
school to be able to engage withlearning or was it a pretty
quick process?
Melisa (20:58):
It took a while.
Jamie (20:59):
It took a long time.
Yeah.
Melisa (21:00):
I think those tutors, that was what I insisted on as a
bit of a background framework.
So there we had a English, mathsand a science tutor.
so that was three hours a weekand that pretty much was the
structure of our week.
Jamie (21:15):
I do want to explain as well though that that wasn't
just how I learned.
One of the reasons thathomeschooling works very well
for me is that I love reading.
So I would say most of mylearning was done through just
reading books, and that'ssomething I've always genuinely
enjoyed.
I was able to do that prettymuch immediately, but, only
(21:39):
things that I actually wasinterested in learning about and
nothing out of the house.
At first we did try a fewactivities that were, say, going
to, to different groups or goingto outdoor activities.
But, it was all too much likeschool at that time.
So I couldn't do that.
Melisa (21:55):
Jamie would just say to me, anything that's like school
I'm not doing, it's tooschoolish.
He'd say, and we are not doingit.
Leisa Reichelt (22:03):
I know we've got so much positive stuff to talk
about, but before we really getinto that, I want people to
understand that you really havebeen on the full journey.
And it wasn't just a matter of,oh, school didn't work.
So we switched and then amazingthings happened.
You mentioned before, Melisa,you said you're a family in
crisis.
Can you tell us a little bitabout what life was like then?
Melisa (22:25):
I think, everybody's fear and anxiety is quite high
around this, and we could see, Imight get emotional, Leisa.
We could see the pain Jamie wasin.
It's a really unknown pathway.
The people around us didn'tunderstand what we were doing
either.
Even my husband took a while toget on board really.
(22:48):
There was conflict there.
My daughter was still having togo to school and other things
for her were emerging and shehad to take a back seat.
So I think, that's what I meanby us being in crisis.
All of our relationships werefrayed.
I think I was putting a lot ofpressure on Jamie.
I remember when he first wentpart-time, I'd sort of say,
(23:10):
we'll do this, but you have togo to school on those other
days.
You have to be there for thethere for the whole day.
You have to not complain.
And the pressure on him to havehad to do that.
I feel terrible about that now
Leisa Reichelt (23:25):
How were you feeling during that time, Jamie?
Jamie (23:28):
Terrible Just to give an idea of some of the things that
were happening.
I got punched a few times,shoved over quite a lot.
Someone threatened to stab me.
And those are just a bunch ofother things that I don't even
feel comfortable saying out loudas well.
The thing is I kept having to goback and so for a long time I
(23:50):
felt almost resentment towardsmy family for continuing to send
me back.
After all that was happening,I'd still have to go back.
By the end, I hated pretty muchevery second of life.
And of course one of my biggestregrets, of my entire childhood
is I didn't recognize that thesame stuff was happening with my
sister.
(24:11):
I almost resented her too, for,from what I saw, not going
through those issues whenactually she was.
Leisa Reichelt (24:17):
Okay.
Let's, let's move on to happierthings then.
So we, transitioned to homeeducation, had some recovery
time, fell back in love withlearning again.
What was your home educationexperience like?
How is it that you are this andalready have a degree almost?
Jamie (24:37):
Like I said, I found homeschool suited us really
well.
Just by reading there was a lotI was able to learn and then
supplemented by having tutors toactually have discussions about
those things that fascinated me.
At first I didn't know, wedidn't know whether there was
any pathway to go to universitywithout going through high
(24:58):
school at all.
Eventually it turned out therewas, and it involved taking
online university units throughopen universities.
So I started that when I was 13and then when I was 14, I
remember very clearly because itwas actually on my birthday that
(25:18):
mum said she had been put intocontact with these three
professors at Curtin who I mightbe able to meet.
And it was them who suggestedthat I formally start my degree
full-time.
Leisa Reichelt (25:35):
What possessed you at the age of 13 to start
taking on university level work?
Jamie (25:41):
I wanted to when I was 12, but they had an age limit of
13 years.
It's one of the great curses ofbeing young is age limits.
It's such pain.
Leisa Reichelt (25:50):
at the other end as well, sadly.
So enjoy this middle time.
Jamie (25:53):
mm-hmm.
I shall.
Yeah.
I guess I just at that pointfelt ready to move forward.
I mean, I was very lucky to knowexactly what I wanted to do very
early, and I got to the stagewhere I wanted to move forward
beyond just learning thesethings from books.
Leisa Reichelt (26:16):
I guess there's not a lot of theoretical physics
in the high school curriculum.
Is there?
Jamie (26:22):
No.
I certainly have very strongviews about the physics and
maths curriculums.
The physics that most kids learnin high school, and sadly is the
only physics that many peopleever learn, is physics that's
hundreds of years old.
All of the things that reallymake me want to do physics, like
(26:43):
the questions about how theuniverse begun and the equations
that describe its evolution andquantum mechanics.
Most people never learn that.
That's not really in thecurriculum.
Leisa Reichelt (26:54):
Oh, we're too busy memorizing Newton's laws,
aren't we?
Jamie (26:57):
Yes, exactly.
And, for maths, I would say thesituation is even worse.
A lot of the maths that's taughtin school, the only maths I was
taught in school is arithmetic.
And maths is so much more thanarithmetic.
There's, different types ofinfinities, fractals, all of
those fascinating things that,again, most people will never
(27:18):
know.
Leisa Reichelt (27:20):
So Melisa, how did you come into contact with
these amazing people at CurtinUniversity?
Melisa (27:24):
I was lucky to go to a few talks by Theresa Kidd, and
we were seeing Theresa Kidd.
And she had been involved insetting up the Autism Academy at
Curtin.
She knew that mentoring had beenpositive for somebody else that
she worked with.
And she put us in contact withthis young person as a potential
mentor who'd been at Curtin.
And then she actually wrote toTele Tan, who is the Curtin
(27:48):
representative from the AutismAcademy.
And he was the one thatorganized this meeting with two
professors, one fromengineering, one from physics.
When we were all in the room,Jamie just had eyes for physics
professor.
They straight away startedtalking.
It was really clear that Jamiewasn't interested in coding or
(28:09):
engineering.
It was just all physics.
Jamie (28:12):
I had been reading Stephen Hawking's books a lot,
and to learn that this physicsprofessor had actually met
Stephen Hawking, in person was,yes my 14-year-old mind was
blown.
Leisa Reichelt (28:25):
That's so sweet.
So tell me about this universitylearning experience.
How has it been?
Obviously it's hard work.
Has it been easier for you thanschooling?
Tell me a little bit about prosand cons, how it's different.
Jamie (28:40):
I've loved it.
It's been absolutely incredible.
I've had supports to help me inexam situations with challenges
because of my autism anddysgraphia.
Of course they can only help somuch.
Exams were still horrible forme, so I'm not sad at all about
being done with them.
Also, the other thing is,students are treated like
(29:04):
adults.
No one's forcing them to bethere.
They can leave if they want.
For the most part in physics,everyone genuinely wants to
learn and loves the subject.
And of course also if someonepunches you there, they go to
prison.
So, that part was safer as well.
Leisa Reichelt (29:22):
Wow.
That's, kind of mind blowing,isn't it?
Why are some things okay atschool that would never be okay
in the rest of the world, ever?
Melisa (29:29):
Jamie, at a very young age was asking me if children
could take out a restrainingorder.
And he couldn't understand whyas a 8-year-old child, he
couldn't do that.
and I understand now, that hewas really feeling like he
needed that kind of protection.
Leisa Reichelt (29:46):
I can't get what you just said out of my head.
If someone punches me atuniversity, they'll go to
prison, know, uh, you'd gonethrough all of that at school
for such a long time.
Melisa (29:54):
From an academic perspective, what I could see in
Jamie was the semi-structurearound a university unit where
there's a predictable patternwith assessments, but you are
able to learn that content atyour own pace.
That really appealed to Jamieand it just surprised me so much
with that first unit that hecould pace himself through these
assessments.
(30:14):
Jamie had a PDA profile and itjust fitted him that he could be
self-determined and work his waythrough those assessments.
And it's really scary that Icouldn't help him if he needed
help, but he actually managedthrough that himself.
Speaking to those professors, Icould reassure them that he can
learn independently and he wascoping with the pressure of
(30:37):
exams.
So Jamie was able to come ontocampus with me.
So he felt very safe on theuniversity campus, safer than a
shopping center or anywhere elsein the world.
And as he said, a school.
So he felt really comfortablewith the environment and they
invited him into lectures to seewhat he felt about learning in
that space.
And he loved it.
(30:58):
But even through OpenUniversities, we met the
curriculum support coordinator,and I'll never forget Jamie, she
just invited you into this roomand said, what can we do so that
you can do your best?
And it's just such a differentattitude and she just said
whatever you need.
And way back when Jamie was only13, that meant having his mum
(31:21):
outside the exam venue and allthese things, and she just
absolutely went with it,whatever he needed to do his
best, which, was very differentto what we'd experienced in
school.
Leisa Reichelt (31:33):
What about the social side of things?
I imagine that there's lots ofpeople going, well, you
struggled socially all throughschool and then you home
educated.
However is Jamie going todevelop social competencies and
social connections in the world?
How has that experience been foryou over the last few years,
Jamie?
Jamie (31:48):
Well, something that I found during my homeschool days
is that I tended to get alongwith people who were older than
me anyway, perhaps because theywere a little more mature.
So that part made things easierduring university.
But also just the fact thateveryone there loved physics as
much as I did, made it almostimpossible not to get along very
(32:11):
well with them.
I guess some of it was justluck.
I happened to come across someincredibly supportive people,
both other students andlecturers.
It was hard during my first yearbecause people could see that I
was younger, so I did feel verydifferent and very shy.
(32:31):
It was really more in secondyear that I started actually
speaking to the other students,but we became friends very
quickly.
Leisa Reichelt (32:39):
That was so great.
So you powered your way throughuniversity and then recently,
more excitement.
Can you tell us a little bitabout your recent news?
Jamie (32:54):
Well, yeah, a few weeks ago I found out that I got the
Rhodes Scholarship, so next yearI'll, wow I can't believe this.
Still I get moments like thiswhere it, it seems crazy to say
out loud, but I will be going toOxford for my PhD.
Leisa Reichelt (33:13):
Wow.
Not bad for a bit of a dumbstudent in year five.
Hey?
Jamie (33:20):
Yes.
I guess so.
Melisa (33:22):
Leadership is a really interesting thing to look at.
'Cause you know, school willtell you that you develop
leadership through resilienceand through sportsmanship and
through being a prefect and allthese things.
And Jamie didn't have any ofthose opportunities and it was a
big concern applying forsomething like a Rhode
scholarship.
(33:42):
And yet Jamie's leadership wasso strong in a very, very
different way.
Leisa Reichelt (33:50):
How does Jamie's leadership come through?
Melisa (33:53):
Do you wanna, Jamie.
Jamie (33:56):
I guess a lot of it is more of a quiet leadership.
By entering university throughthe pathway I did, it's
essentially forged a new pathwayand, since then several other
students who we know directlyand many more that I've heard
(34:16):
about indirectly who've alsoentered higher education through
that pathway.
Of course, being younger atuniversity was intimidating but
there have been times recentlywhere I've sought out
opportunities to share myjourney and advocate for some of
those supports that helpneurodivergent students in
(34:37):
university.
So I guess in that sense, I sortof, lead by going against my
nature.
Because it's definitely not inmy nature to put myself out
there like that.
I'm still a very introvertedperson.
Leisa Reichelt (34:54):
Why do you do it?
Jamie (34:56):
Well, I guess it's very important to me that others can
one day have an easier timegoing through that process than
I did.
Because I was told by a lot ofpeople, including members of my
own family, like, I don't wantto make my dad feel bad, but,
cough, cough, So I feel likeit's important to provide a
(35:17):
counter example to all of thosearguments that there's only one
right way to do things, and ifyou can't do this, it's
impossible to do science orphysics.
And, that's very important to mebecause I did make it through,
so I feel like I need to makepeople aware that if people say
(35:37):
that it's impossible, they'reeither lying or have no idea
what they're talking about.
Leisa Reichelt (35:44):
Jamie, just for people who don't know, what is a
Rhodes scholarship?
Jamie (35:47):
It's a scholarship that will fully fund postgraduate
study at Oxford.
My understanding is it's one ofthe oldest, if not the oldest,
postgraduate scholarship programin the world.
I was incredibly astonished andvery honored to get one.
(36:08):
The criteria that it's awardedbased on academic excellence,
Also, things like communityservice, leadership, sports, art
and culture.
Something that can demonstratethat you have, I think their
wording is energy to use yourtalents to the full.
(36:28):
And also, a commitment tohumanity as a whole, to making
the world a better place.
Leisa Reichelt (36:35):
And what will your PhD be on?
Jamie (36:38):
I'm not sure the exact topic yet, because it will
likely be on some aspect ofquantum gravity, which is a
different area of research towhat I've done in my
undergraduate degree.
There's some incredible workbeing done at Oxford on various
aspects of quantum gravity.
There are some professors who Iwas lucky enough to meet in
(37:01):
person this year so I'll bespeaking to them about that.
Leisa Reichelt (37:07):
And I assume mum's not coming with you.
Jamie (37:12):
Probably to visit.
Melisa (37:13):
Yes, definitely to visit.
But we did a trial run in Junein the lead up.
Jamie organized himself a summerresearch position and, had a
scholarship to pay for that.
So self-funded andself-supported.
So we did go as spectators andthen left him there, and he was
(37:34):
absolutely fine.
Leisa Reichelt (37:36):
Wow,
Melisa (37:37):
Able to live independently and managed to get
himself back from Cambridge allthe way to Perth and then to
Japan to present at aconference.
So I have no doubt that Jamie iscompletely capable and ready for
this new challenge.
Leisa Reichelt (37:53):
Amazing.
must be so proud, Melisa.
Melisa (37:55):
Proud.
So proud.
Leisa Reichelt (37:58):
So, so pleased that you took that big risk of
going on the different pathway.
Okay, well we are pretty muchoutta time.
Before I let you go, if youcould say anything to parents
who are in that dark time, thatfamily in crisis time, that
(38:19):
feeling, you know, forced tomake a decision that they never
thought that they were gonnahave to make time.
What do you want people to know?
Melisa (38:27):
I think that the most thing is your relationship with
your child and building thatconnection and, and, looking
after both of your needs inthat, because I think, that's
the thing that gets sacrificedwhen you are trying to meet
everyone else's expectations.
And I really wanted to hear thatit was gonna be okay.
(38:47):
And, so I listened to anystories I could hear through
that School Can't community, ofpeople getting there, but I
desperately wanted some evidenceor some numbers.
I think I just had to believe inJamie.
Leisa Reichelt (38:59):
And Jamie, what about you?
What would you say to parentswho have got kids who are going
through really really toughtimes at school at the moment.
What would you like them toknow?
Jamie (39:08):
Well, I guess what I'd say is it's important to know
that there's not just one rightpathway.
Make no mistake.
There are some incredible peoplewho work in the school system,
and for some children it worksreally well and they thrive.
There are some who don't havesafe environments at home, and
it provides a safe haven forthem.
(39:29):
But everyone's different.
And for some kids, especiallyneurodivergent kids, they do
struggle in that environment.
And, there are other ways too,and I feel like it's important
to have a system where everyonecan follow the pathway that
suits them best.
Leisa Reichelt (39:47):
Bravo.
Indeed.
Okay.
Well thank you both so much forsharing your story with us
today.
I really appreciate it.
And I just wish you all theabsolute best, Jamie, for your
time next year.
Well done, you two.
Melisa (40:02):
Thank you, Leisa.
Thanks School Can't community aswell, and the podcast.
Thank you.
Jamie (40:08):
Thank you.
Leisa Reichelt (40:08):
Well, how delightful to meet Melisa and
Jamie and to hear their story.
I am so happy that they havemanaged to emerge from their
difficult times into a muchhappier place.
If you have found this podcasthelpful, I would be so grateful
if you could take a moment tosubscribe or give us a rating or
a review.
This really does help us get ourpodcast in front of more people
who have School Can't kids, butwho have not yet found our
(40:31):
community and all theinformation we share.
If you have some feedback for usor maybe a suggestion for a
future topic or guest, orperhaps you've been inspired to
share your own lived experiencestory, please drop us an email
to schoolcantpodcast@gmail.com,and I would love to hear from
you.
If you are a parent or carer inAustralia and your feeling
distressed remember, you canalways call the parent helpline
(40:54):
in your state or call Lifelineon 13 11 14.
Thanks again for listening.
We will talk again soon.
Take care.
Hello and welcome to the School Can't
Experience Podcast.
I am Leisa Reichelt, and thispodcast is brought to you by the
School Can't Australiacommunity.
Caring for a young person who'sstruggling to attend school can
be a stressful and isolatingexperience, but you are not
alone.
Thousands of parents acrossAustralia and many more around
the world face similarchallenges and experiences every
(00:25):
day.
Today we have another delightfulconversation with a parent and
their young person.
We are joined by mum, Melisa,and her son Jamie, who are
sharing their experience ofSchool Can't and how this has
led to our unconventional butsuccessful educational pathway
for Jamie.
A content warning.
We do touch on topics ofphysical assault at school, so
(00:46):
please take care when listeningand reach out for support if you
need it.
I hope you enjoy thisconversation with Melisa and
Jamie.
Well, Melisa and Jamie, thankyou so much for joining us for
our podcast today.
We're delighted to have you andexcited to hear your story.
Melisa (01:01):
Thanks, Leisa.
Jamie (01:02):
Thank you.
We're happy to be here.
Leisa Reichelt (01:05):
Let us start with a bit of general context
for you.
Can you tell us a little bitabout yourselves and what what
do we need to know about you?
Melisa (01:13):
Do you wanna go first, Jamie?
Jamie (01:16):
Sure.
At the moment I am a theoreticalphysics student.
Actually just had my last examlast week, so about to finish my
degree.
Leisa Reichelt (01:27):
Congratulations.
Jamie (01:29):
Thank you.
I'm very happy about not havingany more exams.
I entered University throughquite an unconventional pathway
because I actually didn't go tohigh school in the conventional
sense.
I homeschooled since I was 11,because of challenges with
(01:49):
conventional schooling that I'msure we will discuss very soon.
Leisa Reichelt (01:53):
How old are you now, Jamie?
Jamie (01:55):
18
Leisa Reichelt (01:57):
Lovely.
Tell us about yourself, Melisa
Melisa (02:00):
I'm Jamie's mum and I've been on the wild ride with him,
which has been not as easy as itsounds when Jamie explains it
like that.
But it's been wonderful andwe're at this really fantastic
end of it where things have cometogether so well for us, even
though we're a bit bruised andbattered from the journey.
Leisa Reichelt (02:20):
Tell us a bit about the the family.
Have you got siblings, Jamie?
Jamie (02:24):
Yes, I have a younger sister called Lily, who's in the
next door room now as we speak.
Leisa Reichelt (02:30):
And what about you, Melisa?
Are you are a working mum?
Yeah.
Melisa (02:33):
There was a lot of time where I didn't work.
I'm a nurse, a pediatric nurse,child health nurse and a
midwife.
And was working in education.
For a long time I was only ableto do little bits and pieces,
but in a academic setting, Icould just go in and do small
amounts of work over this periodof time where we struggled with
school.
Leisa Reichelt (02:54):
Alright, well, let's tell this story.
Where do you think it starts?
I might ask you, Melisa, wheredo you think the story starts?
Melisa (03:03):
Well, Jamie, right from the outset, was uncomfortable
about leaving me.
When I was pregnant with mydaughter and I tried this little
daycare around the corner, hewas just not interested, did not
want to separate.
And then starting school, it wasjust the same.
He took a lot of reassuranceevery day.
He was just not comfortable withit.
(03:25):
And people would tell me, he'lleventually just love it.
Give him some time.
We had some limited amounts ofsuccess along the way with a lot
of structure around it, but itnever really clicked.
We'd have moments of an amazingteacher or a friendship that was
supporting him.
But it was always really tricky.
(03:47):
It didn't really escalate untilhe was around year four, where,
it was very, very difficultgetting Jamie to school with so
much structure around.
And it just kept getting worsefrom there.
Leisa Reichelt (04:02):
When you say you know it was possible with
structure around it, what do youmean by structure?
Melisa (04:06):
mean, it would take us hours to get ready in the
morning.
There was lots of games andlightheartedness.
Even just with kindy, it wouldbe when you finish, we'll go and
see the car wash and those kindsof things.
And I was on, eggshells outsidethe whole time, hoping that he'd
had a good time and that then wecould see the car wash.
Leisa Reichelt (04:25):
The carwash was the treat.
Yeah.
Melisa (04:26):
the treat.
Leisa Reichelt (04:29):
That's so cute.
of those early days, Jamie?
Jamie (04:33):
Well, I completely concur with everything mum just said.
I would like to add actually forsome context that although we do
know now that I was autistic, wedid not know that at the time.
Because I didn't get mydiagnosis until I was 12.
Which I think is, is importantcontext for a lot of those early
(04:54):
struggles, you know?
I did find the world to be muchmore of an overwhelming place
than would be considered normal,I guess, for someone of that
age.
My earliest memories of going tokindy were just, I remember the
first time I went I didn'treally understand what was going
(05:15):
on and I was sort of like, okay,there's all of these people.
I'm not entirely sure who theyare, but, that's okay.
I can try and find out.
Then everything sort of wentdownhill very fast when mum left
and I realized that, mumwouldn't be there with me.
And, that didn't really geteasier with time.
Melisa (05:35):
So we had, psychologists involved right from when he was
three or four.
I think he must have been a verydifficult picture to diagnose
because although autism wasraised as a possibility from the
outset, we were just told no, hewouldn't meet criteria.
He and I were very close and Ithink that confused a diagnosis
(05:55):
for a long time.
I think it also perpetuated thiskind of understanding that I
might be part of the problem.
That it might have been mydifficulty with letting go of
Jamie.
So I think that we were sort ofmisdiagnosed.
Leisa Reichelt (06:08):
that, That was that it possibly your fault for
not letting go well enough, thatwas that what psychologists were
saying to you.
Melisa (06:17):
teachers, stories that you hear often, it's because
he's worried about you duringthe day and your mental state.
And, I just remember saying toso many people, I don't actually
think I'm anxious, but the wholeworld is telling me it's
probably my anxiety that'scausing Jamie's difficulties.
And so it was very hard for meto kind of understand what was
(06:37):
going on.
Jamie (06:39):
I'd like to add as well.
It's one of the things that doesupset me is it seems like I
often hear of parents orparticularly mothers being
blamed and I have very littlepatience with those people.
It's really, quite a horriblepart of human psychology to want
to do that.
Leisa Reichelt (06:58):
I don't think you'll have many people
listening, Jamie, who willdisagree with you on that.
Thanks for your support.
yeah, it must have been a prettytorrid time.
Melisa, was it, as you weretrying to work out what was
going on and how best to supportJamie?
Melisa (07:12):
I've heard people say before, Leisa, these big voices
from the school and psychology Iwas doing my best.
I've got a level of educationmyself around development.
I was doing my absolute best, tofit this model and make these
things fit and they just werenot fitting.
it took me a long time to getthe confidence to just say, no,
(07:33):
I'm not listening anymore.
That I think I know better.
Leisa Reichelt (07:38):
What was your experience like at school,
Melisa Did you thrive at school?
Melisa (07:42):
No, but I had a difficult family background.
So I didn't speak up, I just goton with things.
Leisa Reichelt (07:50):
Alright, so we managed as best we could until
year four.
You said things really escalatedin year four.
Tell me about that.
What happened then?
Jamie (08:01):
Well, my memory is up till year four, the things that
I struggled with were not niceto go through.
But on the whole, I still felt Iwas reasonably safe in that
environment, as in, I wasbullied in the sense that other
kids would say unkind things tome, but that's sort of where it
(08:24):
stopped.
Leisa Reichelt (08:25):
Hmm.
Jamie (08:26):
I think that really started to change around year
four.
I would actually say more yearfive.
That started to change as someof those other kids grew older.
Leisa Reichelt (08:37):
You wanna talk us through a little bit about
how that changed.
Jamie (08:41):
Um, I guess just, just more things started happening
that would go beyond just sayingunkind things, but actually turn
into, violent actions.
I remember during that timearound year four or five, I
would beg every morning to notgo to school because I don't
think there are many livingcreatures that would willingly
(09:04):
walk into an environment Yeah.
I would actually argue towardsthe end, I was physically
unsafe.
Leisa Reichelt (09:10):
How did the school respond to this?
I presume that you were talkingwith teachers about what was
going on.
Melisa (09:17):
Yeah, so socially there had been difficulties all the
way through primary school.
There'd be these flareups orthese difficulties with a
particular child and we'd pullthe parents in and I was led to
understand that these wereloving, lovely parents and that
maybe Jamie was provoking thesesituations or in the wrong place
(09:37):
at the wrong time.
We'd set up spaces in thelibrary where he could go and
were sort of constructing waysof Jamie finding safer spots.
But in the school that he wasin, going from year four into
year five, it's a middle schoolmodel.
So they're moving out of theirclassroom more and there's less
supervision.
And I think that's probably whysome of these things escalated
(10:00):
then.
Leisa Reichelt (10:01):
What you're what you're saying I think, is that
ultimately the school didn't doanything effectively
Melisa (10:05):
It was almost like Jamie was provoking these situations
and I was creating these, youknow, I was overactive to these
situations that Jamie wasreporting to me.
Jamie (10:16):
I would like to point out though that there, at least from
my memory, there were somepeople at the school who
genuinely did care and genuinelydid try to help.
The problem is that there were alot more people who I don't
think did.
Melisa (10:34):
Yeah.
It was quite dismissive.
The school, I guess they weredoing their best, but it was a
bigger problem than maybe theyrealized.
We had a change of head of thatmiddle school.
And he was new and didn'tunderstand.
He actually said to us thatthere was a culture of bullying
around Jamie that he was unableto change.
And so that plus a few otherthings intellectually Jamie was
(10:57):
asking to access different kindof content, and he was
restricted often because hewouldn't complete the reading or
he wasn't there on that day or,he wasn't allowed to get a pen
license because his writing wasmessy with a pencil.
And, those kinds of things thatjust made sensory things for
Jamie that just made everythingabout being at school much more
(11:19):
hard for him.
So it was those two thingscoming together that made me
brave enough to realize thatnothing was working in that
environment.
Leisa Reichelt (11:28):
Tell me more about the learning side of
things, Jamie.
In terms of school as a learningexperience for you in those
years, what was that like?
Jamie (11:35):
I did want to comment on that actually.
A lot of people these days sortof ask me, did you leave school
because it was too easy for you,because you just did everything
and went so far ahead?
But actually, no.
I think in a lot of people'seyes, I would've been a very
poor student.
A lot of them would even havelooked at me perhaps as like a,
(11:58):
as, as a dumb student, because Ihave dysgraphia as well.
So my writing at the time, Icould barely write.
And when I did write, it was notlegible to many people.
As a result, and, and also justwith there, because there are
programs designed to extendchildren who are interested in
(12:19):
learning more things.
But I wasn't really able to beinvolved in any of them because
they occurred in environmentswhere I wouldn't be able to cope
or, just that I wouldn't beallowed because of my
handwriting or things like that.
Leisa Reichelt (12:38):
When you say that the the extension
activities were held in placesthat you couldn't really access.
Can you talk a little bit aboutwhat were they like that made
them inaccessible to you?
Jamie (12:50):
There's quite a few, and one that I remember pretty
clearly is ICAS tests.
I think that's what they'recalled, that I was involved in
every year.
And my understanding is thoseare sort of like an optional
extension, is that right?
Those were very traditional penand paper exam settings, and,
back then of course I had prettymuch no supports, none of the
(13:13):
accommodations that have allowedme to do better in those sorts
of tests at university.
So yeah, I really, I couldn'tperform in that sort of
situation.
Leisa Reichelt (13:25):
Knowing what you know now, Jamie, what are the
kinds of accommodations that youwould've needed to have been
able to participate in that.
Jamie (13:33):
I think, to be honest, at the time with all the other
challenges, I just wasn't in theframe of mind anyway to be able
to do things like that.
But assuming that I wasn't, theaccommodations that helped me
are to have extra time to managemy slower writing speed and to
write things neater.
Having rest breaks, having aseparate venue and being able to
(13:55):
bring something like a tactileobject to fidget with are all
things that have helped me.
Melisa (14:01):
Can I share, also Leisa, Jamie has been able to do a lot
of his complex mathematicalexams at uni on a whiteboard,
which is a bigger pen, and it'sa very different hand action.
And the other thing Jamie'sexplained to me is if he makes a
mistake in an equation reallyearly on, he can correct it so
quickly.
Whereas on paper, he feels likehe has to rewrite.
(14:22):
And so the strength and theenergy goes into forming the
calculations and the writingrather than the thought behind
it.
Leisa Reichelt (14:30):
Wow, that's such a clever idea, isn't it?
Melisa (14:33):
But even, when Jamie was in year four, he wanted to learn
calculus.
There was a boy in his classaccessing high school maths at
the time.
Jamie really wanted to do that.
I was told by the teachers thatthere was some really basic
foundational things that hecouldn't do that would not allow
him then to progress.
And what we've discovered withJamie through homeschooling is
that it feeds his brain to havethose really complex things, and
(14:56):
he learns the basic foundationshimself.
And like he'll problem solve andgo, oh, in order to do that, I
need to be able to multiply twodigit numbers.
And so then he'll learn thatconcept himself.
It was just that model ofbuilding on top of a foundation
each year that was repeatingJamie had to repeat through
these really tedious, difficultthings for him to learn, and he
(15:19):
wasn't accessing the deeperthought that he was wanting.
Leisa Reichelt (15:24):
that's the motivation is such a powerful
force for learning, isn't it?
I was talking to someone theother day, they were telling me
about their son who's learningsome computer science, and it's
like if he has to go through theintroductory material before he
gets to the exercise, he justswitches off and can't do it,
but throw him straight in theexercise and then he'll go back
and reference the introductorystuff to solve the problem that
(15:45):
he's trying to solve.
And it's completely differentlearning design.
One way works very powerfullyfor him, and the other way just
makes him kind of cut off fromlearning altogether.
Melisa (15:57):
It makes me think.
I'm not sure if a schoolenvironment would ever actually
be able to cater for that typeof learning, but I do think they
need to appreciate that noteverybody learns in that
traditional way.
Leisa Reichelt (16:09):
So year five, the wheels kind of fell off.
Attending school becameextremely difficult.
Jamie (16:16):
Yes.
Leisa Reichelt (16:16):
Tell me a little bit about how that kind of came
to a head and how you moved intoa different way of learning.
Jamie (16:23):
Things sort of continued like that through year five and
six.
There was a brief period in yearfive where I went to part-time
schooling, which helped for thedays that I was not at school,
but for the days that I was atschool, it sort of exacerbated
the perceived difference that Ifeel like was the root cause of
(16:47):
the bullying.
Then in year six, went back tofull-time school.
Same things continued, and thenpartway through year six, we
moved to another school.
That one had more of aMontessori model.
So academically, I think thatsuited me better because I was
(17:07):
left to learn about what Iwanted to learn about.
The learning side was a bitbetter, but the problem is the
social side, very quickly thesame issues emerged.
And I guess that sort of taughtus that that would happen
anywhere we went.
And yeah, eventually severalvery bad things happened again.
Melisa (17:30):
Mm.
Jamie (17:31):
And that was when I just couldn't go anymore.
And mum and dad agreed to tryhomeschooling.
Melisa (17:38):
We had a very small window of tolerance with the
second school, so as soon as oneor two situations happened, we
were out of there.
Leisa Reichelt (17:45):
What were you thinking, Melisa, as you were
pulling out of one school,trying another one...
Melisa (17:50):
That was really hard you know, because in retrospect, I
just don't think any of us wereready to go back into a
different learning environmentso soon.
Jamie was quite traumatized.
I think we all were.
For me, the same thingsoccurring in a different school
just made me feel like it wasus.
It was me, it was us.
That was a really, verydepressing thought because I had
(18:12):
been thinking it was the schooland what was going on in the
school environment that was theproblem.
But at least, it gave me thestrength to know that we had no
other option.
We had to try and makehomeschool work and we focused
really on repairing andrebuilding with Jamie.
I actually really loved it.
Those early days ofhomeschooling where I just felt
(18:33):
like he was three again, and,his learning came alive again.
We rebuilt that relationship andhad fun together.
That was lovely, but scary.
Very scary.
Leisa Reichelt (18:44):
You didn't set out, intending to home educate.
What was your process of gettingyour head around the fact that
you were gonna do it and thenhow you were gonna approach it?
Melisa (18:54):
The decision easy to make because we had no other
alternative.
And, you know, being a healthprofessional, I could see that
Jamie's mental health and myown, our whole family was
crumbling.
We were a family in crisis.
So we had no other alternative.
I thought we would nurture andrepair and build our
relationships again.
(19:14):
I knew Jamie loved learning, andI knew he had capacity to learn,
and I just thought, we'll dothat.
And, so luckily we had amoderator that really suited or
really supported that.
She sort of helped us find a waythat we could deschool or follow
Jamie's interests.
And I just pitched lots ofdifferent ideas to him.
(19:35):
The schooling was second tore-forming the relationships and
things initially.
With maths, I was conscious thathe might have had to follow the
same content that he might coverin school in case he ever did go
back.
But I knew that the way he'dbeen learning before, in school
hadn't suited him.
So I sought out tutors that weregonna meet Jamie.
(19:57):
Rebuild those relationships andshare something that they loved.
So we found a tutor that wasreally interested in physics and
Jamie loved physics and wasn'tso keen on maths.
And so we asked her to show himthe maths in the physics.
And that just opened up thatworld for Jamie.
And then I found another tutorwho had homeschooled for a while
(20:17):
herself.
She was hilarious.
She'd sit there with Jamie witha textbook and just flip to a
page and say, try that.
He'd do one, she'd flip to thenext chapter, try that.
And they jumped through thiswhole curriculum in weeks.
So Jamie really progressed veryquickly and started to really
enjoy it.
So, we got tutors for those mainsubjects and explored the world
(20:39):
went to museums and learnedabout life and buying things
from the shop and ironing shirtsand things like that, in the
meantime.
Leisa Reichelt (20:48):
Did it take much time from when you finished at
school to be able to engage withlearning or was it a pretty
quick process?
Melisa (20:58):
It took a while.
Jamie (20:59):
It took a long time.
Yeah.
Melisa (21:00):
I think those tutors, that was what I insisted on as a
bit of a background framework.
So there we had a English, mathsand a science tutor.
so that was three hours a weekand that pretty much was the
structure of our week.
Jamie (21:15):
I do want to explain as well though that that wasn't
just how I learned.
One of the reasons thathomeschooling works very well
for me is that I love reading.
So I would say most of mylearning was done through just
reading books, and that'ssomething I've always genuinely
enjoyed.
I was able to do that prettymuch immediately, but, only
(21:39):
things that I actually wasinterested in learning about and
nothing out of the house.
At first we did try a fewactivities that were, say, going
to, to different groups or goingto outdoor activities.
But, it was all too much likeschool at that time.
So I couldn't do that.
Melisa (21:55):
Jamie would just say to me, anything that's like school
I'm not doing, it's tooschoolish.
He'd say, and we are not doingit.
Leisa Reichelt (22:03):
I know we've got so much positive stuff to talk
about, but before we really getinto that, I want people to
understand that you really havebeen on the full journey.
And it wasn't just a matter of,oh, school didn't work.
So we switched and then amazingthings happened.
You mentioned before, Melisa,you said you're a family in
crisis.
Can you tell us a little bitabout what life was like then?
Melisa (22:25):
I think, everybody's fear and anxiety is quite high
around this, and we could see, Imight get emotional, Leisa.
We could see the pain Jamie wasin.
It's a really unknown pathway.
The people around us didn'tunderstand what we were doing
either.
Even my husband took a while toget on board really.
(22:48):
There was conflict there.
My daughter was still having togo to school and other things
for her were emerging and shehad to take a back seat.
So I think, that's what I meanby us being in crisis.
All of our relationships werefrayed.
I think I was putting a lot ofpressure on Jamie.
I remember when he first wentpart-time, I'd sort of say,
(23:10):
we'll do this, but you have togo to school on those other
days.
You have to be there for thethere for the whole day.
You have to not complain.
And the pressure on him to havehad to do that.
I feel terrible about that now
Leisa Reichelt (23:25):
How were you feeling during that time, Jamie?
Jamie (23:28):
Terrible Just to give an idea of some of the things that
were happening.
I got punched a few times,shoved over quite a lot.
Someone threatened to stab me.
And those are just a bunch ofother things that I don't even
feel comfortable saying out loudas well.
The thing is I kept having to goback and so for a long time I
(23:50):
felt almost resentment towardsmy family for continuing to send
me back.
After all that was happening,I'd still have to go back.
By the end, I hated pretty muchevery second of life.
And of course one of my biggestregrets, of my entire childhood
is I didn't recognize that thesame stuff was happening with my
sister.
(24:11):
I almost resented her too, for,from what I saw, not going
through those issues whenactually she was.
Leisa Reichelt (24:17):
Okay.
Let's, let's move on to happierthings then.
So we, transitioned to homeeducation, had some recovery
time, fell back in love withlearning again.
What was your home educationexperience like?
How is it that you are this andalready have a degree almost?
Jamie (24:37):
Like I said, I found homeschool suited us really
well.
Just by reading there was a lotI was able to learn and then
supplemented by having tutors toactually have discussions about
those things that fascinated me.
At first I didn't know, wedidn't know whether there was
any pathway to go to universitywithout going through high
(24:58):
school at all.
Eventually it turned out therewas, and it involved taking
online university units throughopen universities.
So I started that when I was 13and then when I was 14, I
remember very clearly because itwas actually on my birthday that
(25:18):
mum said she had been put intocontact with these three
professors at Curtin who I mightbe able to meet.
And it was them who suggestedthat I formally start my degree
full-time.
Leisa Reichelt (25:35):
What possessed you at the age of 13 to start
taking on university level work?
Jamie (25:41):
I wanted to when I was 12, but they had an age limit of
13 years.
It's one of the great curses ofbeing young is age limits.
It's such pain.
Leisa Reichelt (25:50):
at the other end as well, sadly.
So enjoy this middle time.
Jamie (25:53):
mm-hmm.
I shall.
Yeah.
I guess I just at that pointfelt ready to move forward.
I mean, I was very lucky to knowexactly what I wanted to do very
early, and I got to the stagewhere I wanted to move forward
beyond just learning thesethings from books.
Leisa Reichelt (26:16):
I guess there's not a lot of theoretical physics
in the high school curriculum.
Is there?
Jamie (26:22):
No.
I certainly have very strongviews about the physics and
maths curriculums.
The physics that most kids learnin high school, and sadly is the
only physics that many peopleever learn, is physics that's
hundreds of years old.
All of the things that reallymake me want to do physics, like
(26:43):
the questions about how theuniverse begun and the equations
that describe its evolution andquantum mechanics.
Most people never learn that.
That's not really in thecurriculum.
Leisa Reichelt (26:54):
Oh, we're too busy memorizing Newton's laws,
aren't we?
Jamie (26:57):
Yes, exactly.
And, for maths, I would say thesituation is even worse.
A lot of the maths that's taughtin school, the only maths I was
taught in school is arithmetic.
And maths is so much more thanarithmetic.
There's, different types ofinfinities, fractals, all of
those fascinating things that,again, most people will never
(27:18):
know.
Leisa Reichelt (27:20):
So Melisa, how did you come into contact with
these amazing people at CurtinUniversity?
Melisa (27:24):
I was lucky to go to a few talks by Theresa Kidd, and
we were seeing Theresa Kidd.
And she had been involved insetting up the Autism Academy at
Curtin.
She knew that mentoring had beenpositive for somebody else that
she worked with.
And she put us in contact withthis young person as a potential
mentor who'd been at Curtin.
And then she actually wrote toTele Tan, who is the Curtin
(27:48):
representative from the AutismAcademy.
And he was the one thatorganized this meeting with two
professors, one fromengineering, one from physics.
When we were all in the room,Jamie just had eyes for physics
professor.
They straight away startedtalking.
It was really clear that Jamiewasn't interested in coding or
(28:09):
engineering.
It was just all physics.
Jamie (28:12):
I had been reading Stephen Hawking's books a lot,
and to learn that this physicsprofessor had actually met
Stephen Hawking, in person was,yes my 14-year-old mind was
blown.
Leisa Reichelt (28:25):
That's so sweet.
So tell me about this universitylearning experience.
How has it been?
Obviously it's hard work.
Has it been easier for you thanschooling?
Tell me a little bit about prosand cons, how it's different.
Jamie (28:40):
I've loved it.
It's been absolutely incredible.
I've had supports to help me inexam situations with challenges
because of my autism anddysgraphia.
Of course they can only help somuch.
Exams were still horrible forme, so I'm not sad at all about
being done with them.
Also, the other thing is,students are treated like
(29:04):
adults.
No one's forcing them to bethere.
They can leave if they want.
For the most part in physics,everyone genuinely wants to
learn and loves the subject.
And of course also if someonepunches you there, they go to
prison.
So, that part was safer as well.
Leisa Reichelt (29:22):
Wow.
That's, kind of mind blowing,isn't it?
Why are some things okay atschool that would never be okay
in the rest of the world, ever?
Melisa (29:29):
Jamie, at a very young age was asking me if children
could take out a restrainingorder.
And he couldn't understand whyas a 8-year-old child, he
couldn't do that.
and I understand now, that hewas really feeling like he
needed that kind of protection.
Leisa Reichelt (29:46):
I can't get what you just said out of my head.
If someone punches me atuniversity, they'll go to
prison, know, uh, you'd gonethrough all of that at school
for such a long time.
Melisa (29:54):
From an academic perspective, what I could see in
Jamie was the semi-structurearound a university unit where
there's a predictable patternwith assessments, but you are
able to learn that content atyour own pace.
That really appealed to Jamieand it just surprised me so much
with that first unit that hecould pace himself through these
assessments.
(30:14):
Jamie had a PDA profile and itjust fitted him that he could be
self-determined and work his waythrough those assessments.
And it's really scary that Icouldn't help him if he needed
help, but he actually managedthrough that himself.
Speaking to those professors, Icould reassure them that he can
learn independently and he wascoping with the pressure of
(30:37):
exams.
So Jamie was able to come ontocampus with me.
So he felt very safe on theuniversity campus, safer than a
shopping center or anywhere elsein the world.
And as he said, a school.
So he felt really comfortablewith the environment and they
invited him into lectures to seewhat he felt about learning in
that space.
And he loved it.
(30:58):
But even through OpenUniversities, we met the
curriculum support coordinator,and I'll never forget Jamie, she
just invited you into this roomand said, what can we do so that
you can do your best?
And it's just such a differentattitude and she just said
whatever you need.
And way back when Jamie was only13, that meant having his mum
(31:21):
outside the exam venue and allthese things, and she just
absolutely went with it,whatever he needed to do his
best, which, was very differentto what we'd experienced in
school.
Leisa Reichelt (31:33):
What about the social side of things?
I imagine that there's lots ofpeople going, well, you
struggled socially all throughschool and then you home
educated.
However is Jamie going todevelop social competencies and
social connections in the world?
How has that experience been foryou over the last few years,
Jamie?
Jamie (31:48):
Well, something that I found during my homeschool days
is that I tended to get alongwith people who were older than
me anyway, perhaps because theywere a little more mature.
So that part made things easierduring university.
But also just the fact thateveryone there loved physics as
much as I did, made it almostimpossible not to get along very
(32:11):
well with them.
I guess some of it was justluck.
I happened to come across someincredibly supportive people,
both other students andlecturers.
It was hard during my first yearbecause people could see that I
was younger, so I did feel verydifferent and very shy.
(32:31):
It was really more in secondyear that I started actually
speaking to the other students,but we became friends very
quickly.
Leisa Reichelt (32:39):
That was so great.
So you powered your way throughuniversity and then recently,
more excitement.
Can you tell us a little bitabout your recent news?
Jamie (32:54):
Well, yeah, a few weeks ago I found out that I got the
Rhodes Scholarship, so next yearI'll, wow I can't believe this.
Still I get moments like thiswhere it, it seems crazy to say
out loud, but I will be going toOxford for my PhD.
Leisa Reichelt (33:13):
Wow.
Not bad for a bit of a dumbstudent in year five.
Hey?
Jamie (33:20):
Yes.
I guess so.
Melisa (33:22):
Leadership is a really interesting thing to look at.
'Cause you know, school willtell you that you develop
leadership through resilienceand through sportsmanship and
through being a prefect and allthese things.
And Jamie didn't have any ofthose opportunities and it was a
big concern applying forsomething like a Rhode
scholarship.
(33:42):
And yet Jamie's leadership wasso strong in a very, very
different way.
Leisa Reichelt (33:50):
How does Jamie's leadership come through?
Melisa (33:53):
Do you wanna, Jamie.
Jamie (33:56):
I guess a lot of it is more of a quiet leadership.
By entering university throughthe pathway I did, it's
essentially forged a new pathwayand, since then several other
students who we know directlyand many more that I've heard
(34:16):
about indirectly who've alsoentered higher education through
that pathway.
Of course, being younger atuniversity was intimidating but
there have been times recentlywhere I've sought out
opportunities to share myjourney and advocate for some of
those supports that helpneurodivergent students in
(34:37):
university.
So I guess in that sense, I sortof, lead by going against my
nature.
Because it's definitely not inmy nature to put myself out
there like that.
I'm still a very introvertedperson.
Leisa Reichelt (34:54):
Why do you do it?
Jamie (34:56):
Well, I guess it's very important to me that others can
one day have an easier timegoing through that process than
I did.
Because I was told by a lot ofpeople, including members of my
own family, like, I don't wantto make my dad feel bad, but,
cough, cough, So I feel likeit's important to provide a
(35:17):
counter example to all of thosearguments that there's only one
right way to do things, and ifyou can't do this, it's
impossible to do science orphysics.
And, that's very important to mebecause I did make it through,
so I feel like I need to makepeople aware that if people say
(35:37):
that it's impossible, they'reeither lying or have no idea
what they're talking about.
Leisa Reichelt (35:44):
Jamie, just for people who don't know, what is a
Rhodes scholarship?
Jamie (35:47):
It's a scholarship that will fully fund postgraduate
study at Oxford.
My understanding is it's one ofthe oldest, if not the oldest,
postgraduate scholarship programin the world.
I was incredibly astonished andvery honored to get one.
(36:08):
The criteria that it's awardedbased on academic excellence,
Also, things like communityservice, leadership, sports, art
and culture.
Something that can demonstratethat you have, I think their
wording is energy to use yourtalents to the full.
(36:28):
And also, a commitment tohumanity as a whole, to making
the world a better place.
Leisa Reichelt (36:35):
And what will your PhD be on?
Jamie (36:38):
I'm not sure the exact topic yet, because it will
likely be on some aspect ofquantum gravity, which is a
different area of research towhat I've done in my
undergraduate degree.
There's some incredible workbeing done at Oxford on various
aspects of quantum gravity.
There are some professors who Iwas lucky enough to meet in
(37:01):
person this year so I'll bespeaking to them about that.
Leisa Reichelt (37:07):
And I assume mum's not coming with you.
Jamie (37:12):
Probably to visit.
Melisa (37:13):
Yes, definitely to visit.
But we did a trial run in Junein the lead up.
Jamie organized himself a summerresearch position and, had a
scholarship to pay for that.
So self-funded andself-supported.
So we did go as spectators andthen left him there, and he was
(37:34):
absolutely fine.
Leisa Reichelt (37:36):
Wow,
Melisa (37:37):
Able to live independently and managed to get
himself back from Cambridge allthe way to Perth and then to
Japan to present at aconference.
So I have no doubt that Jamie iscompletely capable and ready for
this new challenge.
Leisa Reichelt (37:53):
Amazing.
must be so proud, Melisa.
Melisa (37:55):
Proud.
So proud.
Leisa Reichelt (37:58):
So, so pleased that you took that big risk of
going on the different pathway.
Okay, well we are pretty muchoutta time.
Before I let you go, if youcould say anything to parents
who are in that dark time, thatfamily in crisis time, that
(38:19):
feeling, you know, forced tomake a decision that they never
thought that they were gonnahave to make time.
What do you want people to know?
Melisa (38:27):
I think that the most thing is your relationship with
your child and building thatconnection and, and, looking
after both of your needs inthat, because I think, that's
the thing that gets sacrificedwhen you are trying to meet
everyone else's expectations.
And I really wanted to hear thatit was gonna be okay.
(38:47):
And, so I listened to anystories I could hear through
that School Can't community, ofpeople getting there, but I
desperately wanted some evidenceor some numbers.
I think I just had to believe inJamie.
Leisa Reichelt (38:59):
And Jamie, what about you?
What would you say to parentswho have got kids who are going
through really really toughtimes at school at the moment.
What would you like them toknow?
Jamie (39:08):
Well, I guess what I'd say is it's important to know
that there's not just one rightpathway.
Make no mistake.
There are some incredible peoplewho work in the school system,
and for some children it worksreally well and they thrive.
There are some who don't havesafe environments at home, and
it provides a safe haven forthem.
(39:29):
But everyone's different.
And for some kids, especiallyneurodivergent kids, they do
struggle in that environment.
And, there are other ways too,and I feel like it's important
to have a system where everyonecan follow the pathway that
suits them best.
Leisa Reichelt (39:47):
Bravo.
Indeed.
Okay.
Well thank you both so much forsharing your story with us
today.
I really appreciate it.
And I just wish you all theabsolute best, Jamie, for your
time next year.
Well done, you two.
Melisa (40:02):
Thank you, Leisa.
Thanks School Can't community aswell, and the podcast.
Thank you.
Jamie (40:08):
Thank you.
Leisa Reichelt (40:08):
Well, how delightful to meet Melisa and
Jamie and to hear their story.
I am so happy that they havemanaged to emerge from their
difficult times into a muchhappier place.
If you have found this podcasthelpful, I would be so grateful
if you could take a moment tosubscribe or give us a rating or
a review.
This really does help us get ourpodcast in front of more people
who have School Can't kids, butwho have not yet found our
(40:31):
community and all theinformation we share.
If you have some feedback for usor maybe a suggestion for a
future topic or guest, orperhaps you've been inspired to
share your own lived experiencestory, please drop us an email
to schoolcantpodcast@gmail.com,and I would love to hear from
you.
If you are a parent or carer inAustralia and your feeling
distressed remember, you canalways call the parent helpline
(40:54):
in your state or call Lifelineon 13 11 14.
Thanks again for listening.
We will talk again soon.
Take care.
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Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.