November 17, 2025 • 38 mins
In this episode of the School Can't Experience Podcast, host Leisa Reichelt speaks with Kate Broderick, a dual qualified speech therapist and occupational therapist, about the transition from behaviorism to a relationship-based approach in education.
Kate shares her personal journey as a parent of neurodivergent children and discusses the importance of building trust-based relationships to create safer and more inclusive learning environments.
They consider the challenges and strategies for advocating for educational transformation and the critical role of nervous system safety in child development. Kate also introduces her upcoming book as a resource for teachers and parents.
00:00 Welcome to the School Can't Experience Podcast
00:26 Meet Kate Broderick: A Dual Qualified Therapist and School Can't Mum
01:04 Understanding Neurodivergence and Parenting
06:54 Challenges and Strategies in School Environments
14:39 Behavioral vs. Relational Approaches in Education
18:22 Building Trust and Relationships in Schools
22:26 Advocacy and Resources for Parents
30:35 Kate's Upcoming Book and Final Thoughts
37:08 Conclusion and Resources
Recommended Resources
- Dr Ross Greene, Lives in the Balance: https://livesinthebalance.org/
- Dr Mona Delahooke: https://monadelahooke.com/
- Dr Vanessa LaPointe: https://drvanessalapointe.com/
- Maggie Dent: https://www.maggiedent.com/
- Gordon Neufeld, The Neufeld Institute: https://www.neufeldinstitute.org/
- Reframing Autism: https://reframingautism.org.au/
- Belongside Families: https://belongsidefamilies.org.au/
- School Can’t Australia Facebook Community - https://www.facebook.com/groups/schoolphobiaschoolrefusalaustralia
- Make a donation to School Can’t Australia - https://www.schoolcantaustralia.com.au/get-involved
If you are a parent of carer in Australia and experiencing distress, please call Lifeline on 13 11 14 or contact the Parent Help Line. - https://kidshelpline.com.au/parents/issues/how-parentline-can-help-you
You can contact us to volunteer to share your School Can't story or some feedback via email on schoolcantpodcast@gmail.com
Disclaimer
The content of this podcast is based on personal lived experiences and is shared for informational and storytelling purposes only. It should not be treated as medical, psychological, or professional advice under any circumstances. If you have concerns about your health or well-being, please seek guidance from a doctor, therapist, or other qualified professional.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Leisa Reichelt (00:05):
Hello and welcome to the School Can't
Experience Podcast.
I'm Leisa Reichelt, and thispodcast is brought to you by the
School Can't Australiacommunity.
Caring for a young person who'sstruggling to attend school can
be a stressful and isolatingexperience, but you are not
alone.
Thousands of parents acrossAustralia and many more around
the world face similarchallenges and experiences every
(00:25):
day.
Today we have the pleasure oftalking with Kate Broderick.
Kate is a School Can't mum andalso a dual qualified speech
therapist and occupationaltherapist.
Kate is going to talk to usabout the move to a relationship
based approach to teaching andaway from behaviorism.
Kate's gonna talk about why thistransformation is so important
(00:46):
and how she has worked with herdaughter's school to help them
transform towards a morerelationship based approach to
teaching.
I hope you enjoy ourconversation.
Alright.
Well, Kate Broderick, thank youso much for joining us for our
podcast today.
It's great to have you.
Kate Broderick (01:02):
Thank you so much for inviting me.
I was absolutely delighted.
Leisa Reichelt (01:04):
Tell us a little bit about yourself, Kate.
You and your family, and whatyou do professionally as well.
Kate Broderick (01:10):
Well, maybe if I start off with the professional
side, I'm a dual qualifiedtherapist, both an occupational
therapist and a speechpathologist.
And I think that.
Fact in and of itself speaksvery much to my own
neurodivergent, ADHDer identity.
And something that I've alwaysspoken about quite freely, but
early in my career, didn't havea formal diagnosis.
(01:31):
But yeah, very, very passionateclinician.
And have gone on to have fourchildren of my own, all of whom
I would say are neurodivergent.
But all different and differentlevels of sensitivity that
expresses itself in their lives,both in and out of school in
particular.
So I have definitely got alibrary of stories when it comes
(01:51):
to School Can't, and differentscenarios that can work out,
more positively or lesspositively.
I know that given theprofessional journey that I've
had, a lot of people would thinkthat perhaps I would be better
resourced than the averageperson.
There is some level at whichthat's true because my kids have
all accessed their identity veryearly and in turn they've all
been strong self-advocates andthat has been helpful.
(02:14):
But also, I think we all needprofessionals.
We all need our tribe around us.
And so I know I can show up formy clients and other people in a
way that, I also need people toshow up for me and sit alongside
me in those meetings.
It's not that having aparticular skill set means that
you can do it all, and I thinkthere's so much pressure on
(02:35):
parents, and as there are somany schools that are still
learning, I guess a more modernunderstanding of what's driving
School Can't, it really isn'tsomething that a parent can
often manage when they'renavigating these challenges at
home to also go in and feel likethey're the people who have to
train their educators as welland change the school and the
(02:57):
system.
I think I probably have beenthat parent stroke professional
for my eldest child, and that'swhy their school community is so
phenomenal now.
I'm happy to say that I havebeen part of that journey for
the entire school.
But sometimes I feel like, ohgoodness, I'm the parent and I
just wish someone could care forus and, you know, gather around
and help me and my child.
Leisa Reichelt (03:19):
I think that you said that you were aware of your
neurodivergence, although notpublic about it fairly early on
in your journey.
Did I understand that correctly?
Kate Broderick (03:33):
I definitely understood that the majority of
the kids that I was supportingwere ADHDers, and a lot of them
were referred to me primarilywith learning disabilities.
So I was very fortunate that myearly clinical mentors were
cutting edge in understandingthe role of executive
functioning and the benefits ofdiagnosis and medical management
for children who perhaps haddyslexia but weren't presenting
(03:55):
with behavioral difficulties.
Within a couple of years of myearly career, I was, yeah, very
aware of this idea that youcould be an ADHDer and not have
behavioral challenges.
But that there was a uniquethinking style that went along
with that.
I can picture myself in myclinic back in Charring Cross
where I had my degrees allhanging on the wall and I'd be
sitting there thinking, Ismashed out three degrees in six
(04:17):
years and here I am now runningmy own practice at age 25.
That is a different unique braintype that has led me here.
That's not the way it is foreverybody.
And I can see in my own kids theway their life can mirror what
my life felt like and then I cansee that they're still different
(04:37):
to me and that they havesignificant other sensitivities
that I can't necessarily relateto through my own lived
experience, but there'ssomething about that commonality
in our neurotype where I do getit.
I'm very attuned to it and Ithink quite good advocates for
them.
Leisa Reichelt (04:53):
This, this is a lot more basic than what you are
saying, but there is somethingjust in recognizing that not
everyone's brain works the sameway that your brain works.
Kate Broderick (05:03):
Yeah.
Leisa Reichelt (05:03):
is such a revelation.
I just wish more people in theworld realize that there are
different kinds of brains ofwork in different kinds of ways,
and that that's okay.
Rather than you are, you are notthinking the way that I think,
you're not acting the way that Iact.
Therefore, you must be doingsomething wrong.
Kate Broderick (05:19):
Yeah, completely.
I heard someone recently talkingabout the fact that they think
autistic parents are like justthe best parents.
And I agree with that and Ithink they did also clarify, and
this is the bit that I think isreally important, as long as
those autistic parentsunderstand, recognize and accept
their identity.
What I think can be difficult isif you have parents who
(05:40):
potentially like me, have movedthrough life without too many
bumps in the road, and thenmaybe have children who are
experiencing the worlddifferently, but who don't have
insight into that, don'trecognize that, and maybe almost
sort of feel like everybodymasks, don't they?
Everybody has to just suckthings up.
You know, life is hard work foreverybody, so what are you going
(06:00):
on about?
Just do it.
if you don't realize that youare walking the path
differently, uh, that's wherewe, I guess, lose
Leisa Reichelt (06:10):
that
Kate Broderick (06:10):
window for empathy and curiosity and being
able to support our kids.
Leisa Reichelt (06:15):
Yeah, I was exactly that.
I'm just like, of course it'shard.
It's, you know, it's hard forevery, was hard for me.
It, it'll be fine.
You'll manage, just keep going.
It'll be fine.
This is before I knew anythingabout my own neurodivergence,
and I'm just like, well, this isjust what it's like for
everyone, isn't it?
And then yeah, you realize lateron that that whole just keep
trying, suck it up, it'll getbetter, you'll manage is not
(06:36):
necessarily the best parentingstrategy and there are more
options that might work betterand be a little bit more
supportive.
And I wish I had moreunderstanding much earlier on
than I did, but yeah, sadly not.
Kate Broderick (06:49):
Yeah.
Well, I mean, I think that'sjust most of us, but the world
is definitely changing.
Leisa Reichelt (06:54):
Let's do some talking about school then, shall
we?
You mentioned before the workthat you did with your eldest
daughter, I think you said, andhow you did a lot of work with
the school and kind of helpcontributing to like
transforming their understandingand maybe their, their way of
working with these situations.
Tell us a little bit about thatstory.
(07:14):
Where did that all start and howdid that go?
Kate Broderick (07:17):
Well, my eldest had a pretty good start to
school.
She already knew that she was anADHDer and it was only a few
weeks in that she came home oneday and said to me, mum, I don't
think Mr.
So-and-So knows that I have ADHDbecause I got in big trouble
today.
But I was just trying my bestand it was just so hard to sit
still.
And, you know, he put my name onthe board and, that made me feel
(07:38):
really bad about myself.
And I also realized in tellingthis story that not all kids or,
the parents of all kids aregonna listen to this and think
that their child has the accessto that verbal speech and could
express all of that.
So that is a luxury, but it'scertainly one that she was able
to tap into because I had toldher what was going on, that she
had this different brain typeand was really aware of her
(07:58):
vulnerabilities and her supportneeds from age five.
And so I was able to straight tothe principal, not in a dibber
dobber way, um, but just in a,Hey, can we have a chat about
this immediately?
And I feel really confident thatthat didn't ever happen again.
I was met with real respect,which I think is something that
I feel is an important part ofinclusion is that not that we
(08:19):
all get it right all the time,because we can't for all people.
Um, but that you are heard andyou feel safe to say what you
need and what your experienceyour child's having.
And, yeah, public shaming ofchildren with names on the board
was not something the school wasdown with.
And so there was just intentionand training and communication
around that sort of thing.
(08:39):
And so, she continued to feelreally safe to explain to people
what brain type she had and whoshe was and that this is hard
for me and I need your support.
And sometimes would share thingswith me at home'cause it wasn't
always things that happened toher either.
She might observe the way ateacher spoke or handled
challenges of other children aswell, and then would be wary or
(09:01):
unsure.
So, being able to talk so openlykept her, I think very safe.
That being said, the sensorydemands of being at school, the
number of children, the pace ofthe day, physical and sensory
demands in most schoolenvironments are high.
So that does cumulatively wearon the nervous system.
And so, within a year we werealready talking about anxiety
(09:24):
and I was already using languagein the space of she's not
feeling safe here.
And that is quite a triggeringway of expressing things for a
lot of educators who arebeautiful, safe, and I'm using
my inverted commas um, fingershere, people, they're not doing
anything to actively harmchildren.
But nervous system safety isn'tsomething that happens at a
(09:44):
conscious level.
Our nervous system is either ina parasympathetic dominant kind
of rest, digest, and learnstate, or it's in a fight or
flight state.
And we know that so manyneurodivergent people's nervous
systems live almost exclusivelyin that sympathetic dominant
state.
That's the work of therapy, Ithink, is to kind of find all of
the little 1% changes that youcan make in your lifestyle to
(10:07):
get your baseline out of thatplace.
But school is somewhere thatadds a lot of extra demands and
eventually I think we do seekids with the odd maybe
resistant morning.
Maybe it gets viewed that way atthe start and eventually if we
don't change things in theenvironment, the physical
environment, but also in the waypeople are interacting with that
child, we can obviously see themin full blown burnout.
(10:31):
And then that puts a stop toeverything and we have to start
again.
So I had those conversationswith the school and definitely
there were teachers who feltstressed and defensive about
this idea of her nervous systemnot feeling safe.
But they listened and learnedand accessed more courses.
I will just say for peoplelistening, secure attachment
with trusted caregivers is thebiggest tool that we have when
(10:54):
it comes to nervous systemsafety for kids.And that t is,
again, something that we can'tjudge as the adult in that dyad.
Secure attachment is what achild experiences in their
relationship with us.
So as a therapist, I can be thesafest, most calm, regulated,
beautiful, warm, friendly personto any child who walks through
(11:17):
my door, that doesn't mean theywill experience secure
attachment with me.
And I can't feel sensitive aboutthat.
There's no ego in that.
It just is what it is, and it'sprobably related to their needs
and all their past experiences.
And for some sensitive kids, itwill take years to develop that
trust-based relationship intherapy.
(11:39):
And obviously, there's two waysyou could look at it with
teachers.
One is that they get a lot ofhours with kids, so that's
helpful.
The other is that it's in a verycomplex context with lots of
other kids around, which isn'tas helpful.
And then if you have those kidswho are gonna take years and
then they get a new teacherevery year, as is the case in
(12:00):
most schools, then that can alsobe quite destabilizing.
So hopefully anybody listeningto this as well, even just with
me explaining these things isstarting to think about.
Oh, who have been the continuouseducators in my child's life
within this school community?
Or has it really felt like we'reback at ground zero every single
year?
You know, are there thesethreads of connection and
(12:22):
relationships that move with mychild or are consistent and
stable year to year?
Or have we not had that?
And does that explain somethingwith regard to where we're at
now?
Leisa Reichelt (12:32):
It does feel as though there's a lot of staff
turnover in schools, isn'tthere?
Like when my youngest son wasgoing to high school, and so in
high school you've got lots ofdifferent teachers.
It just constantly felt asthough teachers were coming and
going.
We'd have one maths teacher andthen that maths teacher would be
away and all of your substituteteachers coming in and it just
(12:52):
feels a lot of the time, likerelentless change in staffing
that makes that secureattachment very difficult to
achieve, or you do achieve it,and then it's taken away from
you, which is almost worse thannot having it in the first
place.
Kate Broderick (13:07):
Yeah.
I've got two thoughts aboutthat.
The first one is I was having aconversation with a principal
from a Northern Territory basedschool earlier this week.
And they really seem to get inthat school the importance of
this relationship based andtrauma informed piece because
kids will come if they like you.
Basically that's what it is.
(13:27):
Like, they know they have toconnect with their students or
else they won't show up toclass.
And I think that that, isactually lovely for teachers to
be really mindful thatconnecting and being genuine,
really authentic with thestudents is the most important
thing, and the learning willflow from that.
But within those communities,they do struggle with higher
(13:47):
turnover more so than in othercommunities.
And so, whilst there's thisnatural cultural embrace of what
I would call this traumainformed relational approach,
the teachers are much moretransitory in those more
isolated, rural and remotecommunities, which is really
hard.
But then, the other thing thatwas in mind as you were saying
that, is just this idea ofteacher burnout.
That's where I talk a lot aboutthis passion for a relationship
(14:10):
based approach over behaviorismbecause relational approach
isn't just a nice value versusbehaviorism.
It really is that we knowbehaviorism doesn't work.
And teachers are, and therapistsare as well, really taught so
much to operate in that way.
Obviously usually it's aboutpositive reinforcement.
Let's give stickers, let's givereward charts, let's give
tokens.
It feels nice for everybody.
(14:31):
But actually that is setting theteachers up for stress.
Because it, it actually doesn'twork.
And we know that now.
Leisa Reichelt (14:39):
It would be great to just unpack these two
concepts, this behavioralapproach and this relational
approach.
Talk us through what each ofthem mean?
Like when you say a behavioralapproach to teaching or to
therapy, what does that looklike?
Where does that come from?
And then, you know what, what isthe contrast to that?
Kate Broderick (14:57):
I guess foundationally, there's this
idea that if we see you displaya certain behavior and then
respond to it in a particularway that's either positively
reinforcing, or negatively, thatthat will shape the behavior and
influence the likelihood of thatbehavior occurring again.
In my mind, what sits almostabove relationship based is what
(15:17):
I call a trauma informedapproach.
And trauma can be a triggeringword for people, but I'm really
just talking about nervoussystems.
So like whether or not a nervoussystem feels safe.
And the pillars that sit underthat are thinking about
different developmental domain,sensory processing, motor
planning, communication style,or language development,
emotional sensitivity andprofile.
(15:39):
Social, style and profile,cognitive strengths and
vulnerabilities and alsoexecutive functioning and all of
those things are dimensions ofdevelopment.
And a person can eithercontribute to them feeling safer
in environment if it plays totheir strengths.
Or more vulnerable, and morelikely to be sitting in that
fight or flight state.
(15:59):
But out of all of those, as Isaid before, the thing that is
the greatest powerhouse isconnection with other humans.
Our highest human need isconnection.
And so if we can buildrelationships, trust-based
relationships with other people,and that includes parents to
teachers, teachers to kids, kidsto parents, all of us.
(16:21):
If we can build strong, trustingrelationships, that is very,
very protective when it comes tomental health and protective of
our nervous system.
So being guided in a situation,for example, where there's a
behavior that might be eitherchallenging or concerning if
it's dangerous, by thinking howcan we quickly create nervous
system safety and what can we doto protect a relationship first
(16:44):
and foremost, knowing that oncewe've achieved that we can do
some problem solving together,hopefully to solve whatever it
was that caused that behavior.
than, as, I guess Ross Greenewould say, like being too late,
doing things after the fact.
So a lot of strategies that wesee in schools like setting up
(17:04):
calm corners, that sort ofthing, those are not always
strategies that are still traumainformed because they are
happening after the fact.
They're reactive.
We are not looking at whathappened before the behavior and
trying to make changes in thatspace.
Leisa Reichelt (17:19):
It does feel as though that is the whole way
that school is geared though,isn't it?
Like that there has to be aproblem before you introduce a
solution that, you know, youhave to see that something's
going wrong in order to dosomething to help it not go
wrong anymore.
Like the, the preventativeactions don't seem to be there
anywhere near as much.
(17:40):
You have to prove that it'snecessary by something going
wrong.
Kate Broderick (17:45):
Yeah, I completely agree.
And I guess at a practicallevel, you won't know
something's going wrong untilyou see something for the first
time.
But if you are an attunedcaregiver, so somebody who has
that connected relationship witha child and you do notice or
start to become curious aboutwhether or not there might be
more sitting under the surface.
(18:06):
That's your sign to follow thatpath and not just switch into
reactive mode and, slapping onstrategies, hoping that it'll go
away.
Leisa Reichelt (18:15):
Makes me think.
Kate, you mentioned as wellabout the, the necessity for
that connected relationshipbetween the parent and the
teacher.
Do you have any thoughts on whatcan you do to try to
preemptively foster that securerelationship partnership between
teacher and parents.
It sounds like you weresuccessful in doing that in your
school, but you know, maybeother schools are not quite as
(18:36):
receptive as that one seems tohave been.
Kate Broderick (18:38):
Not every teacher has felt safe in their
relationship with me, but Ithink that holistically the
school knows Kate's authenticand what you see is what you
get.
And she's gonna always truly bejust advocating for everyone's
best interest.
And it's showing up thatconsistently that's communicated
that tagline that I use as aprofessional, and I have a slide
on this in just about everypresentation that I give
(18:58):
anywhere, is all perspectivesare valid.
That we need to, be grateful asparents if a teacher is brave
enough to share theirobservations, if they start to
become curious about our childhaving any challenges, and that
teachers need to know thatparents' perspectives are valid
and that a child's perspectiveas well, because sometimes even
(19:19):
both teachers and parents arelooking at a child thinking,
you're alright.
You are fine.
they're saying, I hate school.
No, it's terrible.
I think we need to engage themin that conversation.
Not be afraid.
Oh no, if I agree with them or,or open this or around unpack
it, it's gonna be like Pandora'sbox and then it's gonna get
worse and then they're gonna notbe able to go to school if I
(19:40):
have this conversation withthem.
We actually do need to have thatconversation with the child,
even if theirs is the only voiceshowing us that there might be
something that's harder forthem, that they are doing a
pretty good job of concealingmost of the time.
Leisa Reichelt (19:53):
The other thing I was thinking too is like when
you are running through thatwhole list of different facets
that inform nervous systemsafety, you know, just for one
individual, and then as ateacher you've got 20, 25, 30
individuals with all of thosefacets in front of you on a
day-to-day basis as well.
It must be very challenging to
Kate Broderick (20:16):
Yeah.
Leisa Reichelt (20:16):
develop and monitor that kind of relational
engagement with that many kidsat any one time
Kate Broderick (20:24):
Absolutely.
And I think we almost need tomake it a given that we can't
create a flawlessly inclusiveenvironment for every person
everywhere.
I have to even accept thoseconstraints at my practice where
I want everyone to feel safe,but I know that the lighting is
not perfect for all people.
Some would prefer a waiting areathat felt more snug and others
(20:46):
like the fact that it's largerand they can wander around.
And so, its very dynamic and itis about us just trusting.
children do well if they can,and so do teachers and so do
therapists, and so do parents.
And we're all trying our best.
And I think it's about thoserelationships because it's about
us feeling safe to communicate,asking for help from one
(21:07):
another, and trusting that ifsomebody's still struggling,
that we're not playing the blamegame that doesn't get anyone
anywhere.
We have to keep striving towardsgetting to a better place at
least.
To move in the right direction.
'Cause just as problems cansnowball, successes can as well.
And when we save a child'scapacity in one space and see
(21:29):
them feeling a little bit betterin music, or it's working well,
that they are going to a quieterclassroom for maths, we see that
their capacity on the playgroundsuddenly improves, and then the
support needs with theirrelationships is not as
significant.
So, there are so many wins thatcan happen when we are working
together and not judging anyonein the team.
Leisa Reichelt (21:51):
Kate, you talked about the fact that you have
really helped to influence theschool that your daughter goes
to to become less behavioralfocused and more relational
focused.
I'm sure there are many peoplewho are listening who would love
for their school to go on thatsort of transformation as well.
Bearing in mind that youprobably have a bit of an
(22:13):
advantage of coming in as thatsort of dual Speechy OT
professional background.
What are some things that youthink that parents are trying to
help influence their schools tomake that shift could be doing?
Kate Broderick (22:26):
I think for me, I've often not tried to do the
education myself, but justdropped links and helpful
suggestions around courses orconferences or, trainings that
would be useful for staff.
So, School Can't is amazing.
I love Reframing Autism,Belongside Families.
I've mentioned Ross Greene now acouple of times.
(22:47):
His not for profit Lives In TheBalance, which is moving more
into Australia.
All of these are operating,trying to help people.
There's so much out there.
I know that there are resourcesinvolved in sending a staff
member to a course, but, there'sa lot that is high, high
quality, really freelyavailable.
(23:07):
And so I think, just continuingto share and I guess asking for
permission to invite people into present at staff team lunches
or after school huddles andthings is really useful.
There's two tiers as well.
I think one approach is toobviously aim for the sky and go
to the leaders of the school,but also, if you're in a very
(23:31):
tight spot with your child, ifyou're having a really hard
time, the key person is theirclass teacher.
And maybe the whole school isn'tready for a big change, but you
can really form a bond with yourchild's closest caregiver in
that community.
And as long as you can make thathappen.
I think you'll see a lot ofpowerful change in your child's
(23:54):
life.
So it will be different foreverybody.
But I think just continuing toshare information, not
necessarily for me to bestanding up, and doing all that
delivery, has been reallyhelpful.
I've definitely got clients whohave started neurodiversity
committees within the P and F intheir school, I think I've had
(24:14):
families who've shown up to theP and F meetings and spoken
about the challenges that theirchild is having, which takes a
lot of bravery, but it is makingsure that its on the radar of
the wider school community thatnot everyone's having the same
experience and that there arekids in the school with
different needs.
That's advocacy, you know, inits purest form.
Otherwise there will be moneyspent elsewhere and different
(24:37):
initiatives and people justdon't know if you don't have a
voice.
I say all that, knowing how hardit is, like I am not the parent
who has the time to go to the Pand F meetings.
For me to get babysitters for mysensitive and neurodivergent
kids is really, reallydifficult.
So the parents that I knowwho've done that are really
doing a huge job.
(24:57):
It's a lot of passion, a lot ofcommitment, um, and a lot of
effort to even show up to a Pand F meeting to share a bit
about your story.
Leisa Reichelt (25:04):
My son was at a school once where they had a
WhatsApp group for any of theparents who could find the
WhatsApp group who had kids whowere struggling with school due
to neurodivergence or learningdifficulties or whatever the
case may be.
That was a bit of a gamechanger, just knowing that there
were other parents there.
But I think'cause we didn'treally know each other, everyone
was quite shy about just howmuch they would share.
(25:28):
And it took a long time beforepeople would go, look, my kid's
been to school for three hoursthis week and it was Friday.
And I was like, oh my God.
Yes, mine too.
That was good because I don'tthink that schools actively
network struggling familiestogether.
I dunno whether that'sstrategically isolating them or
not.
Kate Broderick (25:47):
That makes WhatsApp seem like a great, um,
you know, platform forconnection but as you say, when
people don't know each other andyou've gotta be so careful for
it not to feel like it's turninginto a group that's talking
about the school or criticizingthe school, it has to feel
supportive and focused on thatsort of shared lived experience
and supporting each otherthrough that.
Leisa Reichelt (26:07):
If we could connect more and then
cooperatively start sharingresources with the school, I
think,'cause I think that's thebig message that I'm hearing
from you is it's not necessarilyour job to get in there and do
the educating, but we can drop alot of resources from other
experts who are amazingresources and often relatively
(26:27):
inexpensive or free to access.
And just hope that schools willchoose to take that up.
Somebody will be attracted toit.
Kate Broderick (26:35):
If they do go, then I have had many emails over
the years.
Oh my goodness.
I went to that conference thatyou recommended and Oh, I feel
so lucky.
And it was just the greatestthing.
And, and then I see the changeshappening.
It's definitely not a hopelesssituation, but that relationship
based approach that I advocatefor with regard to children
applies equally to us as adults,whether or not we are parents
(26:57):
and teachers.
So, um, that's your greatesttool, again, in, in working with
your school is to try and buildup your relationship with them.
Leisa Reichelt (27:06):
I do wanna take a moment just to acknowledge the
fact that there are plenty ofpeople who are listening who
will be in hostile engagementswith their school, where a lot
of the hostility is coming fromthe school to them, and they're
like the last thing I'm feelingright now is safety in my
connection with the teachers andadministrators at the school.
And that is definitely a thing,sadly.
(27:26):
And I, I dunno how you get pastthat.
I dunno if you've got any tipson that, Kate.
Kate Broderick (27:31):
I definitely wouldn't have on my dot point
slide the word advocate, if Ihadn't also experienced that,
and I probably do experience itmore in my high school students'
lives.
And I guess maybe because bythen the behaviors are bigger
and the the kids are bigger andwe are not just talking about
snapping a pencil, we might bethrowing a whole chair across
the room.
(27:52):
Or using language that's moreconfronting.
I know its very triggeringbecause that makes teachers feel
unsafe and it feels likebehavioral consequences are
warranted and like, you know,things that we can't afford not
to do because it feels like weare letting kids get away with
things if we don't respond.
But, again, suspensions,detentions, expulsions, they
(28:13):
don't actually help behavior.
They don't.
So again, just connecting backwith kids and thinking about
what is required to make thisstudent feel safe in this
community.
I've gone to meetings forteenagers where not one single
person in the entire meeting ofsometimes ten professionals
(28:34):
actually knows the child.
The Head of Diverse Learning hasnever met them and they have
looked at their photo on thefile.
And so, you know, in schoolswhere things are working well,
it's often that person that thestudent knows well and will feel
comfortable to knock on thatteacher's door and that their
office is like a calm room thatthey can access when they're
feeling overwhelmed.
(28:55):
But I've definitely had studentswhere there's no connection.
And something that I do now inmeetings, I will say, well, who
in this room loves this child.
And sometimes after a meeting, aparent will burst into tears and
say, you could hear a pin dropwhen you asked that question.
And so even when there arepeople who know a child, I
(29:19):
understand that there's kind oftrauma for everybody, but I
can't expect this child to begoing back into that environment
if there is not a single personwho could sort of say, yeah, I
care about this child.
I feel like I've got a genuineconnection with them and I'm
happy to be the one who meetsthem at the gate every day and
(29:40):
can co-regulate with them.
I've also had heartwarmingstories where we've had students
who maybe have had arelationship with the handyman
on campus or the gardener.
None of the educational staff.
And we've gone great.
Well, he's gonna come in andhe's gonna hang out with Greg
for two hours every morning.
And that's where we'll getstarted.
We know they've got anattachment instinct towards the
(30:01):
gardener or the handyman aroundthe campus.
And then if we can get thattransitioning over to other
members of staff who can justwiden the support network for
those students, then we're gonnasee that they feel safe at
school.
Can stay in school and thenultimately learn.
'Cause I know that teachers areunder a lot of pressure on that
front too, and that when we havemeetings, that's what they're
(30:22):
stressing about and worried thechild's not in class because
they're not going to learn.
But it's putting the horsebefore the cart when that's the
conversation we're having aboutkids whose nervous systems are
so unsafe that they can't evenwalk through the front gate.
Leisa Reichelt (30:35):
Kate, tell me about this book that you've been
working on.
It sounds delightful.
Kate Broderick (30:38):
It's not a story, but it is a beautiful
picture book.
But really it is just explainingthese principles in very simple
language.
And I hope that it's a tool thatwill help teachers and children
build that trust basedrelationship.
As you were saying, how can ateacher do that with 20 to 30
children at one time.
I have this vision of a morningritual where we read a storybook
(31:02):
like this book in our classroomthat provides the foundation for
that.
It was actually inspired by aconversation I had with my son,
who had said to me, I always getpunished and I always get in
trouble and I always, and I wasso shocked hearing him say that
because I was like, buddy, whatare you talking about?
That's not something thathappens in our family, and
(31:25):
that's not my parenting values.
Those aren't the rules of theway we parent in our family.
And he was like, what do youmean?
And I remembered going all theway back to my earlier days
doing courses in behavior.
Where they would say at thestart, you sit down with the
kids and you say to'em, theseare the rules, and I'm gonna
warn you once and I'm gonna warnyou twice.
I'm gonna warn you three times.
(31:45):
But in a sense, there'ssomething about that sitting
down and explaining the rulesthat maybe wasn't a bad idea.
So I explained to him, I knowthat you're all good kids.
I know that your behavior tellsme how your nervous system's
feeling, and if you're having ahard time.
When you guys have a fight, Ialways listen to both of you and
then I help both of you.
It's not even, and then I decidewho's wrong or right.
(32:06):
We don't do that.
We don't play judge and jury.
Kids aren't really reliable attelling you exactly what
happened so we just don't evendo that.
We just listen and validate andthen discuss and find a solution
that's a balance of meetingeveryone's needs.
After that I definitely saw himmore curious and watching me to
see whether or not I was livingup to the rules.
(32:26):
And if anything I said cameacross as a threat, which to be
honest, as much as I talk aboutthis, I can still do, especially
when you feel like there's atime pressure and you might be
rushing to get to school.
So it does take a lot ofscripting and a lot of thinking
and a lot of self-monitoring forus as adults to make this shift.
But, it's built trust between meand my son that he knows that
(32:47):
that's what I'm striving for.
And as I say, he can watch meand correct me and that's
totally fine'cause he feels safeto do that.
And so I really felt like doingsomething that could go into
schools was the priority forkids and for teachers as well.
Leisa Reichelt (33:02):
the book, Kate, is that very much about helping
teachers to articulate what theway of working in the classroom
is gonna be like, so that theyare reinforcing it for
themselves and they're lettingthe kids know that as well.
Kate Broderick (33:13):
Yeah, just really we know that everybody in
this classroom is different.
Everybody's valuable.
Also I know all kids are goodand I know that you're all
always trying your best.
I know that your behavior tellsme how you're feeling inside,
and my job is to guide and lookafter all of you.
And I might change thingssometimes to keep you all
feeling safe.
(33:34):
It's got a little bit of asection of what helps your body
feel safe or nervous system witha few suggestions.
But I think a really importantline for kids and adults as well
to understand is only the childcan say what's helpful to them.
Also even just having a page.
And if there's a day where I'mnot your teacher, I'll try to
make sure that the person who'shere instead knows about this
(33:56):
book.
And so just keeping this ideaof, you are not gonna get in
trouble here.
And if you are having a hardtime, I want you to come to
adults for help, not fordiscipline or consequences.
Because even behaviorism isingrained within our children.
My own kids will come and say'she hit me, you need to punish
(34:17):
her.
So she learns not to do that'.
And I'm like, oh my goodness,where is this coming from?
That doesn't work.
So kids need to learn, we go toadults not to punish other
children or our peers when wethink there's been an injustice.
We go to adults for support andthey help us and we solve
problems together.
(34:37):
And that's what it's all about.
I also do think it's importantthat children feel like they're
resting in the care of adults,as well for us to say we are
leading and guiding you.
And I think that that'simportant for teachers and
parents as well to know andremember as well, is that
children, that's their naturalinstinct to be guided by us.
And when that isn't happening weneed to just go back to the
(34:59):
relationship and that can feel alittle bit hard.
And again, trying not to put ourego into the picture.
If the child's not doing what weask of them either, it's way,
way, way outside their skillset.
And that's often the case.
But also, if you really think itis in their skillset and they're
not doing it, well, something'snot there with the relationship
piece between the two of you.
And that's not the child's jobto fix that.
(35:21):
It's ours as the adults everysingle time.
Leisa Reichelt (35:24):
That sounds like an amazing place for us to start
wrapping up, Kate.
If people wanted to learn moreabout this relational approach
to parenting, to teaching, doyou have any resources that
you'd recommend?
I know you mentioned Ross Greenemultiple times, and we'll
definitely pop a link to to him.
Kate Broderick (35:45):
Gordon Neufeld is amazing.
He has the Neufeld Institute.
Dr.
Deborah McNamara is part of histeam.
She came out to Australia acouple of years ago and I just
was blown away by every wordthat came out of her mouth.
There are people like MonaDelahooke, Vanessa LaPointe,
Maggie Dent.
You can follow me at SpotTherapy Hub.
(36:06):
I still post a lot of thiscontent and if you've got a
neurodivergent child, then Ithink you'll find that there's a
lot of relevant stuff there.
I have my social media accountat KateBroderick.Official and
I'll just be talking exclusivelyabout behaviorism versus
relationship based approach andhave that really strong focus on
supporting teachers and parents,especially for the sake of their
(36:30):
children, but for the sake oftheir own wellbeing and mental
health as well.
Leisa Reichelt (36:34):
Kate, just finally, if folks wanna get
their hands on the book, is itavailable for pre-order anywhere
yet?
Kate Broderick (36:39):
yeah, katebroderick.com au.
Leisa Reichelt (36:41):
Okay.
Excellent.
I'll pop a link in there andyeah, if people wanna get hold
the book to gift to theirchild's teacher maybe, or
Kate Broderick (36:50):
yeah, fingers crossed next year will be full
of happy little schoolcommunities making small changes
that will benefit everyone.
Leisa Reichelt (36:57):
That is a good New Year's wish for us all, I
think.
Thank you so much, Kate, forjoining us.
Really, really appreciate yourtime and your experience and
expertise.
Kate Broderick (37:05):
Oh, absolute pleasure.
Thanks so much, Leisa.
Bye everybody.
Leisa Reichelt (37:09):
Well, I hope you've got some inspiration and
some ideas from all the storiesand insight that Kate has shared
with us today.
I've put links to the many greatresources Kate suggested in the
episode notes, as well as a linkto School Can't Australia, where
you'll find our amazingcommunity and many more helpful
resources.
If you have found our podcasthelpful, I would be so grateful
if you could take a moment tosubscribe or give us a rating or
(37:32):
review.
This really does help us get thepodcast in front of more people
who have School Can't kids, andwho haven't yet found the School
Can't community and all theinformation and support we
share.
And if you have some feedbackfor us or maybe a suggestion for
a future topic or a guest, orperhaps you've been inspired to
share your own lived experiencestory, please drop me an email
(37:52):
to schoolcantpodcast@gmail.com Iwould love to hear from you.
If you are a parent or carer inAustralia and you're feeling
distressed, please remember youcan always call the Parent
Helpline in your state or callLifeline on 13 11 Thanks again
for listening, and we will talkagain soon.
Take care.
Hello and welcome to the School Can't
Experience Podcast.
I'm Leisa Reichelt, and thispodcast is brought to you by the
School Can't Australiacommunity.
Caring for a young person who'sstruggling to attend school can
be a stressful and isolatingexperience, but you are not
alone.
Thousands of parents acrossAustralia and many more around
the world face similarchallenges and experiences every
(00:25):
day.
Today we have the pleasure oftalking with Kate Broderick.
Kate is a School Can't mum andalso a dual qualified speech
therapist and occupationaltherapist.
Kate is going to talk to usabout the move to a relationship
based approach to teaching andaway from behaviorism.
Kate's gonna talk about why thistransformation is so important
(00:46):
and how she has worked with herdaughter's school to help them
transform towards a morerelationship based approach to
teaching.
I hope you enjoy ourconversation.
Alright.
Well, Kate Broderick, thank youso much for joining us for our
podcast today.
It's great to have you.
Kate Broderick (01:02):
Thank you so much for inviting me.
I was absolutely delighted.
Leisa Reichelt (01:04):
Tell us a little bit about yourself, Kate.
You and your family, and whatyou do professionally as well.
Kate Broderick (01:10):
Well, maybe if I start off with the professional
side, I'm a dual qualifiedtherapist, both an occupational
therapist and a speechpathologist.
And I think that.
Fact in and of itself speaksvery much to my own
neurodivergent, ADHDer identity.
And something that I've alwaysspoken about quite freely, but
early in my career, didn't havea formal diagnosis.
(01:31):
But yeah, very, very passionateclinician.
And have gone on to have fourchildren of my own, all of whom
I would say are neurodivergent.
But all different and differentlevels of sensitivity that
expresses itself in their lives,both in and out of school in
particular.
So I have definitely got alibrary of stories when it comes
(01:51):
to School Can't, and differentscenarios that can work out,
more positively or lesspositively.
I know that given theprofessional journey that I've
had, a lot of people would thinkthat perhaps I would be better
resourced than the averageperson.
There is some level at whichthat's true because my kids have
all accessed their identity veryearly and in turn they've all
been strong self-advocates andthat has been helpful.
(02:14):
But also, I think we all needprofessionals.
We all need our tribe around us.
And so I know I can show up formy clients and other people in a
way that, I also need people toshow up for me and sit alongside
me in those meetings.
It's not that having aparticular skill set means that
you can do it all, and I thinkthere's so much pressure on
(02:35):
parents, and as there are somany schools that are still
learning, I guess a more modernunderstanding of what's driving
School Can't, it really isn'tsomething that a parent can
often manage when they'renavigating these challenges at
home to also go in and feel likethey're the people who have to
train their educators as welland change the school and the
(02:57):
system.
I think I probably have beenthat parent stroke professional
for my eldest child, and that'swhy their school community is so
phenomenal now.
I'm happy to say that I havebeen part of that journey for
the entire school.
But sometimes I feel like, ohgoodness, I'm the parent and I
just wish someone could care forus and, you know, gather around
and help me and my child.
Leisa Reichelt (03:19):
I think that you said that you were aware of your
neurodivergence, although notpublic about it fairly early on
in your journey.
Did I understand that correctly?
Kate Broderick (03:33):
I definitely understood that the majority of
the kids that I was supportingwere ADHDers, and a lot of them
were referred to me primarilywith learning disabilities.
So I was very fortunate that myearly clinical mentors were
cutting edge in understandingthe role of executive
functioning and the benefits ofdiagnosis and medical management
for children who perhaps haddyslexia but weren't presenting
(03:55):
with behavioral difficulties.
Within a couple of years of myearly career, I was, yeah, very
aware of this idea that youcould be an ADHDer and not have
behavioral challenges.
But that there was a uniquethinking style that went along
with that.
I can picture myself in myclinic back in Charring Cross
where I had my degrees allhanging on the wall and I'd be
sitting there thinking, Ismashed out three degrees in six
(04:17):
years and here I am now runningmy own practice at age 25.
That is a different unique braintype that has led me here.
That's not the way it is foreverybody.
And I can see in my own kids theway their life can mirror what
my life felt like and then I cansee that they're still different
(04:37):
to me and that they havesignificant other sensitivities
that I can't necessarily relateto through my own lived
experience, but there'ssomething about that commonality
in our neurotype where I do getit.
I'm very attuned to it and Ithink quite good advocates for
them.
Leisa Reichelt (04:53):
This, this is a lot more basic than what you are
saying, but there is somethingjust in recognizing that not
everyone's brain works the sameway that your brain works.
Kate Broderick (05:03):
Yeah.
Leisa Reichelt (05:03):
is such a revelation.
I just wish more people in theworld realize that there are
different kinds of brains ofwork in different kinds of ways,
and that that's okay.
Rather than you are, you are notthinking the way that I think,
you're not acting the way that Iact.
Therefore, you must be doingsomething wrong.
Kate Broderick (05:19):
Yeah, completely.
I heard someone recently talkingabout the fact that they think
autistic parents are like justthe best parents.
And I agree with that and Ithink they did also clarify, and
this is the bit that I think isreally important, as long as
those autistic parentsunderstand, recognize and accept
their identity.
What I think can be difficult isif you have parents who
(05:40):
potentially like me, have movedthrough life without too many
bumps in the road, and thenmaybe have children who are
experiencing the worlddifferently, but who don't have
insight into that, don'trecognize that, and maybe almost
sort of feel like everybodymasks, don't they?
Everybody has to just suckthings up.
You know, life is hard work foreverybody, so what are you going
(06:00):
on about?
Just do it.
if you don't realize that youare walking the path
differently, uh, that's wherewe, I guess, lose
Leisa Reichelt (06:10):
that
Kate Broderick (06:10):
window for empathy and curiosity and being
able to support our kids.
Leisa Reichelt (06:15):
Yeah, I was exactly that.
I'm just like, of course it'shard.
It's, you know, it's hard forevery, was hard for me.
It, it'll be fine.
You'll manage, just keep going.
It'll be fine.
This is before I knew anythingabout my own neurodivergence,
and I'm just like, well, this isjust what it's like for
everyone, isn't it?
And then yeah, you realize lateron that that whole just keep
trying, suck it up, it'll getbetter, you'll manage is not
(06:36):
necessarily the best parentingstrategy and there are more
options that might work betterand be a little bit more
supportive.
And I wish I had moreunderstanding much earlier on
than I did, but yeah, sadly not.
Kate Broderick (06:49):
Yeah.
Well, I mean, I think that'sjust most of us, but the world
is definitely changing.
Leisa Reichelt (06:54):
Let's do some talking about school then, shall
we?
You mentioned before the workthat you did with your eldest
daughter, I think you said, andhow you did a lot of work with
the school and kind of helpcontributing to like
transforming their understandingand maybe their, their way of
working with these situations.
Tell us a little bit about thatstory.
(07:14):
Where did that all start and howdid that go?
Kate Broderick (07:17):
Well, my eldest had a pretty good start to
school.
She already knew that she was anADHDer and it was only a few
weeks in that she came home oneday and said to me, mum, I don't
think Mr.
So-and-So knows that I have ADHDbecause I got in big trouble
today.
But I was just trying my bestand it was just so hard to sit
still.
And, you know, he put my name onthe board and, that made me feel
(07:38):
really bad about myself.
And I also realized in tellingthis story that not all kids or,
the parents of all kids aregonna listen to this and think
that their child has the accessto that verbal speech and could
express all of that.
So that is a luxury, but it'scertainly one that she was able
to tap into because I had toldher what was going on, that she
had this different brain typeand was really aware of her
(07:58):
vulnerabilities and her supportneeds from age five.
And so I was able to straight tothe principal, not in a dibber
dobber way, um, but just in a,Hey, can we have a chat about
this immediately?
And I feel really confident thatthat didn't ever happen again.
I was met with real respect,which I think is something that
I feel is an important part ofinclusion is that not that we
(08:19):
all get it right all the time,because we can't for all people.
Um, but that you are heard andyou feel safe to say what you
need and what your experienceyour child's having.
And, yeah, public shaming ofchildren with names on the board
was not something the school wasdown with.
And so there was just intentionand training and communication
around that sort of thing.
(08:39):
And so, she continued to feelreally safe to explain to people
what brain type she had and whoshe was and that this is hard
for me and I need your support.
And sometimes would share thingswith me at home'cause it wasn't
always things that happened toher either.
She might observe the way ateacher spoke or handled
challenges of other children aswell, and then would be wary or
(09:01):
unsure.
So, being able to talk so openlykept her, I think very safe.
That being said, the sensorydemands of being at school, the
number of children, the pace ofthe day, physical and sensory
demands in most schoolenvironments are high.
So that does cumulatively wearon the nervous system.
And so, within a year we werealready talking about anxiety
(09:24):
and I was already using languagein the space of she's not
feeling safe here.
And that is quite a triggeringway of expressing things for a
lot of educators who arebeautiful, safe, and I'm using
my inverted commas um, fingershere, people, they're not doing
anything to actively harmchildren.
But nervous system safety isn'tsomething that happens at a
(09:44):
conscious level.
Our nervous system is either ina parasympathetic dominant kind
of rest, digest, and learnstate, or it's in a fight or
flight state.
And we know that so manyneurodivergent people's nervous
systems live almost exclusivelyin that sympathetic dominant
state.
That's the work of therapy, Ithink, is to kind of find all of
the little 1% changes that youcan make in your lifestyle to
(10:07):
get your baseline out of thatplace.
But school is somewhere thatadds a lot of extra demands and
eventually I think we do seekids with the odd maybe
resistant morning.
Maybe it gets viewed that way atthe start and eventually if we
don't change things in theenvironment, the physical
environment, but also in the waypeople are interacting with that
child, we can obviously see themin full blown burnout.
(10:31):
And then that puts a stop toeverything and we have to start
again.
So I had those conversationswith the school and definitely
there were teachers who feltstressed and defensive about
this idea of her nervous systemnot feeling safe.
But they listened and learnedand accessed more courses.
I will just say for peoplelistening, secure attachment
with trusted caregivers is thebiggest tool that we have when
(10:54):
it comes to nervous systemsafety for kids.And that t is,
again, something that we can'tjudge as the adult in that dyad.
Secure attachment is what achild experiences in their
relationship with us.
So as a therapist, I can be thesafest, most calm, regulated,
beautiful, warm, friendly personto any child who walks through
(11:17):
my door, that doesn't mean theywill experience secure
attachment with me.
And I can't feel sensitive aboutthat.
There's no ego in that.
It just is what it is, and it'sprobably related to their needs
and all their past experiences.
And for some sensitive kids, itwill take years to develop that
trust-based relationship intherapy.
(11:39):
And obviously, there's two waysyou could look at it with
teachers.
One is that they get a lot ofhours with kids, so that's
helpful.
The other is that it's in a verycomplex context with lots of
other kids around, which isn'tas helpful.
And then if you have those kidswho are gonna take years and
then they get a new teacherevery year, as is the case in
(12:00):
most schools, then that can alsobe quite destabilizing.
So hopefully anybody listeningto this as well, even just with
me explaining these things isstarting to think about.
Oh, who have been the continuouseducators in my child's life
within this school community?
Or has it really felt like we'reback at ground zero every single
year?
You know, are there thesethreads of connection and
(12:22):
relationships that move with mychild or are consistent and
stable year to year?
Or have we not had that?
And does that explain somethingwith regard to where we're at
now?
Leisa Reichelt (12:32):
It does feel as though there's a lot of staff
turnover in schools, isn'tthere?
Like when my youngest son wasgoing to high school, and so in
high school you've got lots ofdifferent teachers.
It just constantly felt asthough teachers were coming and
going.
We'd have one maths teacher andthen that maths teacher would be
away and all of your substituteteachers coming in and it just
(12:52):
feels a lot of the time, likerelentless change in staffing
that makes that secureattachment very difficult to
achieve, or you do achieve it,and then it's taken away from
you, which is almost worse thannot having it in the first
place.
Kate Broderick (13:07):
Yeah.
I've got two thoughts aboutthat.
The first one is I was having aconversation with a principal
from a Northern Territory basedschool earlier this week.
And they really seem to get inthat school the importance of
this relationship based andtrauma informed piece because
kids will come if they like you.
Basically that's what it is.
(13:27):
Like, they know they have toconnect with their students or
else they won't show up toclass.
And I think that that, isactually lovely for teachers to
be really mindful thatconnecting and being genuine,
really authentic with thestudents is the most important
thing, and the learning willflow from that.
But within those communities,they do struggle with higher
(13:47):
turnover more so than in othercommunities.
And so, whilst there's thisnatural cultural embrace of what
I would call this traumainformed relational approach,
the teachers are much moretransitory in those more
isolated, rural and remotecommunities, which is really
hard.
But then, the other thing thatwas in mind as you were saying
that, is just this idea ofteacher burnout.
That's where I talk a lot aboutthis passion for a relationship
(14:10):
based approach over behaviorismbecause relational approach
isn't just a nice value versusbehaviorism.
It really is that we knowbehaviorism doesn't work.
And teachers are, and therapistsare as well, really taught so
much to operate in that way.
Obviously usually it's aboutpositive reinforcement.
Let's give stickers, let's givereward charts, let's give
tokens.
It feels nice for everybody.
(14:31):
But actually that is setting theteachers up for stress.
Because it, it actually doesn'twork.
And we know that now.
Leisa Reichelt (14:39):
It would be great to just unpack these two
concepts, this behavioralapproach and this relational
approach.
Talk us through what each ofthem mean?
Like when you say a behavioralapproach to teaching or to
therapy, what does that looklike?
Where does that come from?
And then, you know what, what isthe contrast to that?
Kate Broderick (14:57):
I guess foundationally, there's this
idea that if we see you displaya certain behavior and then
respond to it in a particularway that's either positively
reinforcing, or negatively, thatthat will shape the behavior and
influence the likelihood of thatbehavior occurring again.
In my mind, what sits almostabove relationship based is what
(15:17):
I call a trauma informedapproach.
And trauma can be a triggeringword for people, but I'm really
just talking about nervoussystems.
So like whether or not a nervoussystem feels safe.
And the pillars that sit underthat are thinking about
different developmental domain,sensory processing, motor
planning, communication style,or language development,
emotional sensitivity andprofile.
(15:39):
Social, style and profile,cognitive strengths and
vulnerabilities and alsoexecutive functioning and all of
those things are dimensions ofdevelopment.
And a person can eithercontribute to them feeling safer
in environment if it plays totheir strengths.
Or more vulnerable, and morelikely to be sitting in that
fight or flight state.
(15:59):
But out of all of those, as Isaid before, the thing that is
the greatest powerhouse isconnection with other humans.
Our highest human need isconnection.
And so if we can buildrelationships, trust-based
relationships with other people,and that includes parents to
teachers, teachers to kids, kidsto parents, all of us.
(16:21):
If we can build strong, trustingrelationships, that is very,
very protective when it comes tomental health and protective of
our nervous system.
So being guided in a situation,for example, where there's a
behavior that might be eitherchallenging or concerning if
it's dangerous, by thinking howcan we quickly create nervous
system safety and what can we doto protect a relationship first
(16:44):
and foremost, knowing that oncewe've achieved that we can do
some problem solving together,hopefully to solve whatever it
was that caused that behavior.
than, as, I guess Ross Greenewould say, like being too late,
doing things after the fact.
So a lot of strategies that wesee in schools like setting up
(17:04):
calm corners, that sort ofthing, those are not always
strategies that are still traumainformed because they are
happening after the fact.
They're reactive.
We are not looking at whathappened before the behavior and
trying to make changes in thatspace.
Leisa Reichelt (17:19):
It does feel as though that is the whole way
that school is geared though,isn't it?
Like that there has to be aproblem before you introduce a
solution that, you know, youhave to see that something's
going wrong in order to dosomething to help it not go
wrong anymore.
Like the, the preventativeactions don't seem to be there
anywhere near as much.
(17:40):
You have to prove that it'snecessary by something going
wrong.
Kate Broderick (17:45):
Yeah, I completely agree.
And I guess at a practicallevel, you won't know
something's going wrong untilyou see something for the first
time.
But if you are an attunedcaregiver, so somebody who has
that connected relationship witha child and you do notice or
start to become curious aboutwhether or not there might be
more sitting under the surface.
(18:06):
That's your sign to follow thatpath and not just switch into
reactive mode and, slapping onstrategies, hoping that it'll go
away.
Leisa Reichelt (18:15):
Makes me think.
Kate, you mentioned as wellabout the, the necessity for
that connected relationshipbetween the parent and the
teacher.
Do you have any thoughts on whatcan you do to try to
preemptively foster that securerelationship partnership between
teacher and parents.
It sounds like you weresuccessful in doing that in your
school, but you know, maybeother schools are not quite as
(18:36):
receptive as that one seems tohave been.
Kate Broderick (18:38):
Not every teacher has felt safe in their
relationship with me, but Ithink that holistically the
school knows Kate's authenticand what you see is what you
get.
And she's gonna always truly bejust advocating for everyone's
best interest.
And it's showing up thatconsistently that's communicated
that tagline that I use as aprofessional, and I have a slide
on this in just about everypresentation that I give
(18:58):
anywhere, is all perspectivesare valid.
That we need to, be grateful asparents if a teacher is brave
enough to share theirobservations, if they start to
become curious about our childhaving any challenges, and that
teachers need to know thatparents' perspectives are valid
and that a child's perspectiveas well, because sometimes even
(19:19):
both teachers and parents arelooking at a child thinking,
you're alright.
You are fine.
they're saying, I hate school.
No, it's terrible.
I think we need to engage themin that conversation.
Not be afraid.
Oh no, if I agree with them or,or open this or around unpack
it, it's gonna be like Pandora'sbox and then it's gonna get
worse and then they're gonna notbe able to go to school if I
(19:40):
have this conversation withthem.
We actually do need to have thatconversation with the child,
even if theirs is the only voiceshowing us that there might be
something that's harder forthem, that they are doing a
pretty good job of concealingmost of the time.
Leisa Reichelt (19:53):
The other thing I was thinking too is like when
you are running through thatwhole list of different facets
that inform nervous systemsafety, you know, just for one
individual, and then as ateacher you've got 20, 25, 30
individuals with all of thosefacets in front of you on a
day-to-day basis as well.
It must be very challenging to
Kate Broderick (20:16):
Yeah.
Leisa Reichelt (20:16):
develop and monitor that kind of relational
engagement with that many kidsat any one time
Kate Broderick (20:24):
Absolutely.
And I think we almost need tomake it a given that we can't
create a flawlessly inclusiveenvironment for every person
everywhere.
I have to even accept thoseconstraints at my practice where
I want everyone to feel safe,but I know that the lighting is
not perfect for all people.
Some would prefer a waiting areathat felt more snug and others
(20:46):
like the fact that it's largerand they can wander around.
And so, its very dynamic and itis about us just trusting.
children do well if they can,and so do teachers and so do
therapists, and so do parents.
And we're all trying our best.
And I think it's about thoserelationships because it's about
us feeling safe to communicate,asking for help from one
(21:07):
another, and trusting that ifsomebody's still struggling,
that we're not playing the blamegame that doesn't get anyone
anywhere.
We have to keep striving towardsgetting to a better place at
least.
To move in the right direction.
'Cause just as problems cansnowball, successes can as well.
And when we save a child'scapacity in one space and see
(21:29):
them feeling a little bit betterin music, or it's working well,
that they are going to a quieterclassroom for maths, we see that
their capacity on the playgroundsuddenly improves, and then the
support needs with theirrelationships is not as
significant.
So, there are so many wins thatcan happen when we are working
together and not judging anyonein the team.
Leisa Reichelt (21:51):
Kate, you talked about the fact that you have
really helped to influence theschool that your daughter goes
to to become less behavioralfocused and more relational
focused.
I'm sure there are many peoplewho are listening who would love
for their school to go on thatsort of transformation as well.
Bearing in mind that youprobably have a bit of an
(22:13):
advantage of coming in as thatsort of dual Speechy OT
professional background.
What are some things that youthink that parents are trying to
help influence their schools tomake that shift could be doing?
Kate Broderick (22:26):
I think for me, I've often not tried to do the
education myself, but justdropped links and helpful
suggestions around courses orconferences or, trainings that
would be useful for staff.
So, School Can't is amazing.
I love Reframing Autism,Belongside Families.
I've mentioned Ross Greene now acouple of times.
(22:47):
His not for profit Lives In TheBalance, which is moving more
into Australia.
All of these are operating,trying to help people.
There's so much out there.
I know that there are resourcesinvolved in sending a staff
member to a course, but, there'sa lot that is high, high
quality, really freelyavailable.
(23:07):
And so I think, just continuingto share and I guess asking for
permission to invite people into present at staff team lunches
or after school huddles andthings is really useful.
There's two tiers as well.
I think one approach is toobviously aim for the sky and go
to the leaders of the school,but also, if you're in a very
(23:31):
tight spot with your child, ifyou're having a really hard
time, the key person is theirclass teacher.
And maybe the whole school isn'tready for a big change, but you
can really form a bond with yourchild's closest caregiver in
that community.
And as long as you can make thathappen.
I think you'll see a lot ofpowerful change in your child's
(23:54):
life.
So it will be different foreverybody.
But I think just continuing toshare information, not
necessarily for me to bestanding up, and doing all that
delivery, has been reallyhelpful.
I've definitely got clients whohave started neurodiversity
committees within the P and F intheir school, I think I've had
(24:14):
families who've shown up to theP and F meetings and spoken
about the challenges that theirchild is having, which takes a
lot of bravery, but it is makingsure that its on the radar of
the wider school community thatnot everyone's having the same
experience and that there arekids in the school with
different needs.
That's advocacy, you know, inits purest form.
Otherwise there will be moneyspent elsewhere and different
(24:37):
initiatives and people justdon't know if you don't have a
voice.
I say all that, knowing how hardit is, like I am not the parent
who has the time to go to the Pand F meetings.
For me to get babysitters for mysensitive and neurodivergent
kids is really, reallydifficult.
So the parents that I knowwho've done that are really
doing a huge job.
(24:57):
It's a lot of passion, a lot ofcommitment, um, and a lot of
effort to even show up to a Pand F meeting to share a bit
about your story.
Leisa Reichelt (25:04):
My son was at a school once where they had a
WhatsApp group for any of theparents who could find the
WhatsApp group who had kids whowere struggling with school due
to neurodivergence or learningdifficulties or whatever the
case may be.
That was a bit of a gamechanger, just knowing that there
were other parents there.
But I think'cause we didn'treally know each other, everyone
was quite shy about just howmuch they would share.
(25:28):
And it took a long time beforepeople would go, look, my kid's
been to school for three hoursthis week and it was Friday.
And I was like, oh my God.
Yes, mine too.
That was good because I don'tthink that schools actively
network struggling familiestogether.
I dunno whether that'sstrategically isolating them or
not.
Kate Broderick (25:47):
That makes WhatsApp seem like a great, um,
you know, platform forconnection but as you say, when
people don't know each other andyou've gotta be so careful for
it not to feel like it's turninginto a group that's talking
about the school or criticizingthe school, it has to feel
supportive and focused on thatsort of shared lived experience
and supporting each otherthrough that.
Leisa Reichelt (26:07):
If we could connect more and then
cooperatively start sharingresources with the school, I
think,'cause I think that's thebig message that I'm hearing
from you is it's not necessarilyour job to get in there and do
the educating, but we can drop alot of resources from other
experts who are amazingresources and often relatively
(26:27):
inexpensive or free to access.
And just hope that schools willchoose to take that up.
Somebody will be attracted toit.
Kate Broderick (26:35):
If they do go, then I have had many emails over
the years.
Oh my goodness.
I went to that conference thatyou recommended and Oh, I feel
so lucky.
And it was just the greatestthing.
And, and then I see the changeshappening.
It's definitely not a hopelesssituation, but that relationship
based approach that I advocatefor with regard to children
applies equally to us as adults,whether or not we are parents
(26:57):
and teachers.
So, um, that's your greatesttool, again, in, in working with
your school is to try and buildup your relationship with them.
Leisa Reichelt (27:06):
I do wanna take a moment just to acknowledge the
fact that there are plenty ofpeople who are listening who
will be in hostile engagementswith their school, where a lot
of the hostility is coming fromthe school to them, and they're
like the last thing I'm feelingright now is safety in my
connection with the teachers andadministrators at the school.
And that is definitely a thing,sadly.
(27:26):
And I, I dunno how you get pastthat.
I dunno if you've got any tipson that, Kate.
Kate Broderick (27:31):
I definitely wouldn't have on my dot point
slide the word advocate, if Ihadn't also experienced that,
and I probably do experience itmore in my high school students'
lives.
And I guess maybe because bythen the behaviors are bigger
and the the kids are bigger andwe are not just talking about
snapping a pencil, we might bethrowing a whole chair across
the room.
(27:52):
Or using language that's moreconfronting.
I know its very triggeringbecause that makes teachers feel
unsafe and it feels likebehavioral consequences are
warranted and like, you know,things that we can't afford not
to do because it feels like weare letting kids get away with
things if we don't respond.
But, again, suspensions,detentions, expulsions, they
(28:13):
don't actually help behavior.
They don't.
So again, just connecting backwith kids and thinking about
what is required to make thisstudent feel safe in this
community.
I've gone to meetings forteenagers where not one single
person in the entire meeting ofsometimes ten professionals
(28:34):
actually knows the child.
The Head of Diverse Learning hasnever met them and they have
looked at their photo on thefile.
And so, you know, in schoolswhere things are working well,
it's often that person that thestudent knows well and will feel
comfortable to knock on thatteacher's door and that their
office is like a calm room thatthey can access when they're
feeling overwhelmed.
(28:55):
But I've definitely had studentswhere there's no connection.
And something that I do now inmeetings, I will say, well, who
in this room loves this child.
And sometimes after a meeting, aparent will burst into tears and
say, you could hear a pin dropwhen you asked that question.
And so even when there arepeople who know a child, I
(29:19):
understand that there's kind oftrauma for everybody, but I
can't expect this child to begoing back into that environment
if there is not a single personwho could sort of say, yeah, I
care about this child.
I feel like I've got a genuineconnection with them and I'm
happy to be the one who meetsthem at the gate every day and
(29:40):
can co-regulate with them.
I've also had heartwarmingstories where we've had students
who maybe have had arelationship with the handyman
on campus or the gardener.
None of the educational staff.
And we've gone great.
Well, he's gonna come in andhe's gonna hang out with Greg
for two hours every morning.
And that's where we'll getstarted.
We know they've got anattachment instinct towards the
(30:01):
gardener or the handyman aroundthe campus.
And then if we can get thattransitioning over to other
members of staff who can justwiden the support network for
those students, then we're gonnasee that they feel safe at
school.
Can stay in school and thenultimately learn.
'Cause I know that teachers areunder a lot of pressure on that
front too, and that when we havemeetings, that's what they're
(30:22):
stressing about and worried thechild's not in class because
they're not going to learn.
But it's putting the horsebefore the cart when that's the
conversation we're having aboutkids whose nervous systems are
so unsafe that they can't evenwalk through the front gate.
Leisa Reichelt (30:35):
Kate, tell me about this book that you've been
working on.
It sounds delightful.
Kate Broderick (30:38):
It's not a story, but it is a beautiful
picture book.
But really it is just explainingthese principles in very simple
language.
And I hope that it's a tool thatwill help teachers and children
build that trust basedrelationship.
As you were saying, how can ateacher do that with 20 to 30
children at one time.
I have this vision of a morningritual where we read a storybook
(31:02):
like this book in our classroomthat provides the foundation for
that.
It was actually inspired by aconversation I had with my son,
who had said to me, I always getpunished and I always get in
trouble and I always, and I wasso shocked hearing him say that
because I was like, buddy, whatare you talking about?
That's not something thathappens in our family, and
(31:25):
that's not my parenting values.
Those aren't the rules of theway we parent in our family.
And he was like, what do youmean?
And I remembered going all theway back to my earlier days
doing courses in behavior.
Where they would say at thestart, you sit down with the
kids and you say to'em, theseare the rules, and I'm gonna
warn you once and I'm gonna warnyou twice.
I'm gonna warn you three times.
(31:45):
But in a sense, there'ssomething about that sitting
down and explaining the rulesthat maybe wasn't a bad idea.
So I explained to him, I knowthat you're all good kids.
I know that your behavior tellsme how your nervous system's
feeling, and if you're having ahard time.
When you guys have a fight, Ialways listen to both of you and
then I help both of you.
It's not even, and then I decidewho's wrong or right.
(32:06):
We don't do that.
We don't play judge and jury.
Kids aren't really reliable attelling you exactly what
happened so we just don't evendo that.
We just listen and validate andthen discuss and find a solution
that's a balance of meetingeveryone's needs.
After that I definitely saw himmore curious and watching me to
see whether or not I was livingup to the rules.
(32:26):
And if anything I said cameacross as a threat, which to be
honest, as much as I talk aboutthis, I can still do, especially
when you feel like there's atime pressure and you might be
rushing to get to school.
So it does take a lot ofscripting and a lot of thinking
and a lot of self-monitoring forus as adults to make this shift.
But, it's built trust between meand my son that he knows that
(32:47):
that's what I'm striving for.
And as I say, he can watch meand correct me and that's
totally fine'cause he feels safeto do that.
And so I really felt like doingsomething that could go into
schools was the priority forkids and for teachers as well.
Leisa Reichelt (33:02):
the book, Kate, is that very much about helping
teachers to articulate what theway of working in the classroom
is gonna be like, so that theyare reinforcing it for
themselves and they're lettingthe kids know that as well.
Kate Broderick (33:13):
Yeah, just really we know that everybody in
this classroom is different.
Everybody's valuable.
Also I know all kids are goodand I know that you're all
always trying your best.
I know that your behavior tellsme how you're feeling inside,
and my job is to guide and lookafter all of you.
And I might change thingssometimes to keep you all
feeling safe.
(33:34):
It's got a little bit of asection of what helps your body
feel safe or nervous system witha few suggestions.
But I think a really importantline for kids and adults as well
to understand is only the childcan say what's helpful to them.
Also even just having a page.
And if there's a day where I'mnot your teacher, I'll try to
make sure that the person who'shere instead knows about this
(33:56):
book.
And so just keeping this ideaof, you are not gonna get in
trouble here.
And if you are having a hardtime, I want you to come to
adults for help, not fordiscipline or consequences.
Because even behaviorism isingrained within our children.
My own kids will come and say'she hit me, you need to punish
(34:17):
her.
So she learns not to do that'.
And I'm like, oh my goodness,where is this coming from?
That doesn't work.
So kids need to learn, we go toadults not to punish other
children or our peers when wethink there's been an injustice.
We go to adults for support andthey help us and we solve
problems together.
(34:37):
And that's what it's all about.
I also do think it's importantthat children feel like they're
resting in the care of adults,as well for us to say we are
leading and guiding you.
And I think that that'simportant for teachers and
parents as well to know andremember as well, is that
children, that's their naturalinstinct to be guided by us.
And when that isn't happening weneed to just go back to the
(34:59):
relationship and that can feel alittle bit hard.
And again, trying not to put ourego into the picture.
If the child's not doing what weask of them either, it's way,
way, way outside their skillset.
And that's often the case.
But also, if you really think itis in their skillset and they're
not doing it, well, something'snot there with the relationship
piece between the two of you.
And that's not the child's jobto fix that.
(35:21):
It's ours as the adults everysingle time.
Leisa Reichelt (35:24):
That sounds like an amazing place for us to start
wrapping up, Kate.
If people wanted to learn moreabout this relational approach
to parenting, to teaching, doyou have any resources that
you'd recommend?
I know you mentioned Ross Greenemultiple times, and we'll
definitely pop a link to to him.
Kate Broderick (35:45):
Gordon Neufeld is amazing.
He has the Neufeld Institute.
Dr.
Deborah McNamara is part of histeam.
She came out to Australia acouple of years ago and I just
was blown away by every wordthat came out of her mouth.
There are people like MonaDelahooke, Vanessa LaPointe,
Maggie Dent.
You can follow me at SpotTherapy Hub.
(36:06):
I still post a lot of thiscontent and if you've got a
neurodivergent child, then Ithink you'll find that there's a
lot of relevant stuff there.
I have my social media accountat KateBroderick.Official and
I'll just be talking exclusivelyabout behaviorism versus
relationship based approach andhave that really strong focus on
supporting teachers and parents,especially for the sake of their
(36:30):
children, but for the sake oftheir own wellbeing and mental
health as well.
Leisa Reichelt (36:34):
Kate, just finally, if folks wanna get
their hands on the book, is itavailable for pre-order anywhere
yet?
Kate Broderick (36:39):
yeah, katebroderick.com au.
Leisa Reichelt (36:41):
Okay.
Excellent.
I'll pop a link in there andyeah, if people wanna get hold
the book to gift to theirchild's teacher maybe, or
Kate Broderick (36:50):
yeah, fingers crossed next year will be full
of happy little schoolcommunities making small changes
that will benefit everyone.
Leisa Reichelt (36:57):
That is a good New Year's wish for us all, I
think.
Thank you so much, Kate, forjoining us.
Really, really appreciate yourtime and your experience and
expertise.
Kate Broderick (37:05):
Oh, absolute pleasure.
Thanks so much, Leisa.
Bye everybody.
Leisa Reichelt (37:09):
Well, I hope you've got some inspiration and
some ideas from all the storiesand insight that Kate has shared
with us today.
I've put links to the many greatresources Kate suggested in the
episode notes, as well as a linkto School Can't Australia, where
you'll find our amazingcommunity and many more helpful
resources.
If you have found our podcasthelpful, I would be so grateful
if you could take a moment tosubscribe or give us a rating or
(37:32):
review.
This really does help us get thepodcast in front of more people
who have School Can't kids, andwho haven't yet found the School
Can't community and all theinformation and support we
share.
And if you have some feedbackfor us or maybe a suggestion for
a future topic or a guest, orperhaps you've been inspired to
share your own lived experiencestory, please drop me an email
(37:52):
to schoolcantpodcast@gmail.com Iwould love to hear from you.
If you are a parent or carer inAustralia and you're feeling
distressed, please remember youcan always call the Parent
Helpline in your state or callLifeline on 13 11 Thanks again
for listening, and we will talkagain soon.
Take care.
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