Loss 65/101: Loss of a friend: Hannah Rumsey

#137. Can losing a friend be overlooked in our culture? What happens when the friend who knew you best is gone? And why are there so few resources to help with this kind of grief?

This is The Silent Why, a podcast on a mission to explore grief, asking if hope can be found in 101 different types of permanent loss.

Loss #65 of 101: Loss of a friend

In this episode, we meet Hannah Rumsey from Chicago. She's the founder of Friends Missing Friends, a community she created for people navigating the loss of a friend. And Hannah’s work grew out of her own story, when in 2015 her best friend Lauren died suddenly.

Hannah shares about the deep bond she and Lauren had, Lauren’s incredible zest for life, and the devastating way she first learned of her death - while posting a birthday message on Facebook.

Together, we explored the unique challenges of grieving a friend, and why this grief can feel invisible or minimised, how few resources exist for friend-loss grief, despite how common it is, and the surprising ways healing, and hope, can unfold over time.

This is a heartfelt and open conversation about a form of grief that isn’t often acknowledged, yet touches so many lives.

And for listeners who enjoyed my behind-the-scenes episode on how to make a podcast - there's a little bonus in this episode - some unedited audio that shows just how in sync Chris and I are with our questioning. 👌

For more about Hannah, Friends Missing Friends, and her podcast:
https://www.friendsmissingfriends.com
https://www.instagram.com/friendsmissingfriends
https://www.facebook.com/friendsmissingfriends
http://friendsmissingfriends.com/griefgroup

Podcast: https://creators.spotify.com/pod/profile/friendsmissingfriends

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Episode Transcript

Hannah Rumsey (00:02):
Hi, my name is Hannah Rumsey and I'm here to
talk about grieving the loss ofmy best friend, Lauren.

Claire (00:12):
Welcome to The Silent Why.
A husband and wife on apodcasting mission to find 101
different types of loss and tohear from those who've
experienced them.
I'm Claire.

Chris (00:20):
And I'm Chris, and this is loss number 65.
We're in England.
Hannah's in Chicago, illinois.
She's the founder of FriendsMissing Friends, which is a
community she started a fewyears ago for people grieving
the loss of their friends.
That work has grown out of herown story.
When, in 2015, her best friendLauren suddenly died, hannah
told us about the bond they hadand Lauren's huge zest for life.

Hannah Rumsey (00:43):
I feel like a lot of people can relate to this
feeling and it does not happenevery day or every year where
you click immediately.
It is like she she's my sisterand she was so exuberant and so
full of life, lived life not at100%, but at 150%.

Claire (01:03):
In this episode, you'll also hear Hannah talking to us
about the devastating way shefound out that Lauren had died.

Hannah Rumsey (01:08):
I actually went to her Facebook page just to
post happy birthday and I postedhappy birthday and then I
scrolled down just to look atthe other birthday posts but I
just saw dozens of posts thatsaid rest in peace.

Chris (01:24):
And like so many before her, Hannah started to discover
just how few resources reallyexist to help and offer support
in this very common grief.

Hannah Rumsey (01:32):
I to this day cannot find friend loss grief
groups, and I hosted friend lossgrief groups a few months ago
and every single person whojoined said I was the first one
that they were able to find andsome of them had been searching
for years.
I'm like why would there not beresources for that specific

(01:54):
type of grief?
It doesn't compute for me, itdoesn't make sense.

Claire (01:58):
In our conversation we talked with Hannah about the
unique challenges of grieving afriend, why this loss can feel
so invisible or minimised, andthe surprising ways that healing
can show up with time.

Hannah Rumsey (02:08):
There are so many times where I've looked back
and thought like 10 years ago Iwould not have believed that I'm
living the life I am now andfeeling the way I am now.
I wouldn't have believed it,and I feel like that is a big
part of hope.
Is that, like you, don't haveto believe it for it to happen?

Chris (02:27):
This is a very open conversation about a grief that
isn't talked about enough andthe difficulties and
complications that can arisewhen you're grieving the loss of
someone from another family.

Claire (02:36):
And if you heard my last episode on how I make a podcast
, you might remember the editingthat I mentioned.
Well, in this episode I've leftin some bonus unedited audio
for you to show you just how insync Chris and I are with our
questioning.

Chris (02:48):
So let's get going with loss 65 of 101.
We begin our chat with Hannahintroducing herself.

Hannah Rumsey (02:55):
My name is Hannah Rumsey.
I live in Chicago and on anaverage week I've been working
on a book, so I've been doing alot of writing.
I'm working on a memoir aboutmy grief and I also work
remotely, so I do some bookediting work and I have a
podcast, so I do podcasting andI also have been going to the

(03:18):
gym more often.
So I'm trying to be healthy andstay active, to be healthy and
stay active.

Claire (03:22):
Thank you for coming to talk about your friend Lauren.
Tell us a bit about her, sotell us who she was and what
your friendship was like andwhen you first met and things
like that.

Hannah Rumsey (03:32):
Yeah, so I met Lauren on the very first day of
summer camp when I was 17.
And I could not have met hermore immediately Because I was
literally in the registrationline and we met in line, so
absolutely immediately.
And I just love saying how Imet her because it's just kind
of a unique story where, like,my mom was in line with me and

(03:52):
she knows I'm shy and I wasespecially shy when I was 17 and
going through loneliness, I wasstruggling socially in high
school and she I feel like shehad the goal.
She was like okay, before Ileave Hannah for the six weeks,
I need to find her a friend.
And so she literally justtapped on the shoulder of the
girl standing right in front ofus who ended up being Lauren,

(04:16):
and I was.
So I was like, oh my God, mom,stop.
I was so embarrassed.
But Lauren turned around andshe was with her mom and our
moms were like doing all thetalking, like this is my
daughter.
Yeah, this is my daughter,laura.
And then me and Lauren werebeing really quiet and shy.
So we joked for years that wewere forced, introduced to each

(04:39):
other by my mom, which is true,mom, which is true and just like
over the years would say overand over, like I'm so glad that
your mom force introduced us,because I feel like a lot of
people can relate to thisfeeling and it does not happen
every day or every year whereyou click immediately, almost
like whether or not you believein past lives, like it's as if

(05:02):
you knew each other in a pastlife, very much felt like a
sisterly, I like I hate that wehave to compare friendships to a
familial relationship for toexplain how close we were, but
it is like she, she's my sisterand she was actually two years
younger than me, which whenyou're a teenager, is kind of
significant.
So she was 15 and I was 17.

(05:25):
But and I was reflecting onthis today actually I kind of
looked up to her as if she werean older sister and part of
that's my personality, like I'min real life, I am a younger
sister, I have an older sister.
So I like finding a role modeland following someone and she
was so exuberant and so full oflife and lived life not at 100%

(05:50):
but at 150%, just lived life tothe max, and that was something
I immediately admired in her andI still get frustrated at
myself if I feel like I'm notdoing that, like that's
something I want to.
I want to harness that.
But like she was so funny andlike an example would be, like
she would burst out dancing orsinging and wouldn't care if

(06:13):
people would judge her or stareand was just like definitely one
of the funniest people I've metto this day amazing.

Claire (06:19):
That's so sweet.
I love all those kind of theways people connect and the way
that opposites attract.
You have that kind of awe,almost, of the people who are
really out there.
I am not one of those people,but I love seeing people that
are, so I can understand theattraction.

Chris (06:33):
Particularly if you're shy as well.
There must be an element.
If you're shy, that's just likeslightly terrified, but excited
by that fear.

Claire (06:39):
That's like oh, my word, you live at 150.
How do you do it?

Hannah Rumsey (06:49):
yes, so how long were you friends for?
How old are you now and how oldwas lauren when she died?
So now I'm 33.
Uh, she died 10 years ago,almost exactly because her
anniversary was july 19th theanniversary of her death and she
died when she was 21, actuallyon her 21st birthday.
So, just to kind of preface,after camp we stayed really
close friends, but it was longdistance because she lived in

(07:11):
Pennsylvania and I lived inVirginia.
But we would have what wecalled Skype marathon sessions.
Remember Skype, yes, like backin the day, and just Skype for
like four or five hours at atime.
And so we were still reallyclose, albeit in a different way
.
And the summer of 2015,.
She was studying abroad inSpain and I knew she was

(07:31):
studying abroad and I the lastinteraction I had with her
actually was on her Facebookwall, which again is very dated,
like back when people wouldmessage back and forth on your
wall and I actually said likeI'm thinking about interlocking
and how I'm so glad my mom forceintroduced us.
I can't wait till you get backto the States and for us to
catch up.
And she said, yes, oh, my God.

(07:53):
She was also always like veryexuberant and text, like you
know, 25 exclamation points,like all caps.
You know which is exactly howshe is in person.
She was like, yes, I'll be backin the States mid-August.
We'll Skype as soon as I getback.
And then so July 19th she wasstill in Spain and the next day
I actually went to her Facebookpage just to post happy birthday

(08:16):
and I posted happy birthday andthen I scrolled down just to
look at the other birthday postsbut I just saw dozens of posts
that said rest in peace.

Claire (08:29):
What a way to find out.
And that was the first you knewthat anything had happened.

Hannah Rumsey (08:33):
That was the first I knew and, like, I think,
anyone who's experienced anykind of trauma or like getting
traumatic news, it takes a bitfor it to actually sink in.
So I was reading it and it waslike it didn't compute.
I was like that can't be true,there's no way that's true.
It wouldn't feel real until Isaw articles posted news

(08:58):
articles that said somethingalong the lines of Penn State
senior falls off balcony anddies while studying abroad in
Spain, and I read like seven oreight of those again not
computing like I was just numband it's like I describe it as
it was like a dial, a volumedial, going from silent to

(09:21):
screaming.
Because it was silent, I wasnumb and then it was like a
complete overwhelm and Iremember I fell to the ground
and just started screaming.

Claire (09:32):
Yeah, I guess that's the first thing that you think
about.
The difference with the deathof a friend is that you're not
necessarily in that loop ofpeople who get told straight
away so that you can get.
You can find out theinformation in more traumatic
ways.
That's a good point.

Hannah Rumsey (09:45):
Yeah, I honestly don't know how I would have
found out.
Like I might not have found outfor days or weeks, like I might
have just been, like she's notresponding to me, like what's
going on?

Chris (09:55):
yeah, and finding out through a way that's really
impersonal, like that isincredibly traumatic were you
quite quick to believe that thathappened, or did you go off
sort of trying to validate orverify the news?
What has happened?

Hannah Rumsey (10:10):
Yeah, it's.
It's tricky because I feel likethere's so many layers of
belief and after reading, likeyou know, several articles, the
first layer believed it, where Iwas like this is real.
But then I definitely messagedher mother and confirmed with
her.
But then there are the otherlayers and I feel like this

(10:31):
happens a lot with sudden ortraumatic death, where in many
ways you still don't fullybelieve it and like every night
I would have a dream that Ifound her alive and it was like
my brain was trying to make itso that she was actually alive,
like, oh, it's amisunderstanding, Like you know,
she'll show up or something.
And it took probably over ayear for those dreams to stop.

Claire (10:55):
Yeah, and you're not witnessing or seeing any of the
sort of other people that aregrieving.
I guess If you're in the coreof a family bereavement, you're
seeing other people around youprocessing it, you're seeing
other people upset, so there'sthat kind of level of starting
to understand and process it.
But when you're that bitremoved, especially
geographically if it's in adifferent country, you don't
really see any of thatnecessarily.
So that must make it evenharder because you're just

(11:15):
trying to do it on your own.

Hannah Rumsey (11:17):
Yes, and that has been such a huge part of the
grieving process a lack ofmirroring and I feel like that
is an essential part to heal,like I feel like it really helps
us to heal to like see ourgrief mirrored back and, and you
know, with other people whoalso love them, for instance,

(11:38):
but like yeah, you're totallyright like it's like this bomb
has gone off in your life andthen everyone else is acting
like nothing's happened.
It makes it harder for you toprocess it, um, and it it's very
isolating.

Claire (11:52):
It's very isolating yeah , that was one of the things I
was going to ask.
Actually, is it a lonelyexperience?

Hannah Rumsey (11:57):
it was a very, incredibly lonely experience I
not entirely alone, but verylonely like I did have access to
messaging her mother onFacebook.
She was the most responsive,like she.
It was helpful for her to talkto him too, but there were some
mutual friends who talking aboutit wasn't, they weren't ready

(12:19):
for it or they they couldn'tface it, which I totally
understand but, but I needed totalk about it.
So, having people kind of havethis wall come up or not respond
or not be available and themain person that's available is
her mom, which I'm so gratefulfor.
But I needed more than oneperson.
And what's wild is that I'vebeen in touch with her boyfriend

(12:42):
this whole time through texting.
Just a couple times a year.
We'll just check, like, how areyou?
You know, how are you feeling?
And this year it took 10 yearsfor me to reach out and say and
I like my heart was thumping.
I don't know why, but I was sonervous.
I was like, are you okaytalking on the phone, like just
so we can share memories andeverything?

(13:02):
And and he was open to it andit was incredibly emotional
because, you know, when we weretalking I realized that was the
first time I'd ever heard hisvoice and that it blew my mind
because I saw him at the funeral.
But you know, he didn't talk.
He was so distraught, um, hedidn't speak and I was like, oh
my god, like I can't believe.
It took me 10 years to like toreach out to him like what?

(13:24):
just tell us how far apart youwere from Lauren she was in
Pennsylvania and I was inVirginia, so maybe like a five
to seven hour drive, I was ableto go to the funeral, which I'm
glad of.
I think that helps a lot withthe grieving process.
But, like I, I'm actually veryfrustrated with how funerals and
this is just funerals ingeneral that I've I've been to

(13:46):
or seen even on TV like they'revery quiet and, like your, your
sadness has to be extremelycontained.
Um, it's almost like thisunsaid rule.
I don't know if I, I don't knowwhere that came from, but like
I felt like I had to just havelike polite tears, but I felt
like I was holding in ahurricane and I remember every

(14:09):
muscle in my body was likeclenched and I was like shaking
from being clenched.

Claire (14:14):
So I just wish there was an experience where you get to
like keem and scream likebecause that's really what I
wanted to do yeah, you canpicture some of the like sort of
middle eastern type funeralswhere they do actually have like
wailing and you think, yeah,that would be a probably a
healthier thing to be around tojust be able to let it out.
But yeah, you're right, theydon't often tend to.
I think a lot of people thinkthey have to have funerals done

(14:35):
a certain way, whethertraditional or culturally, so
they don't often represent theperson.
So if you've got someone likeLauren, who you know did life
150%, if you've got a very quietfuneral, then that can be
really difficult as well becauseyou think, well, this doesn't
feel very representative of her.
So yeah, it can really vary onhow people want to do it and
obviously, again, as a friend,you probably don't have any

(14:55):
input in that because it wouldbe the family that would
organize things and so thatprobably is quite hard for some
people as well.

Hannah Rumsey (15:02):
Yeah, yeah, that's so well put and it's
really hard, I feel it's.
It's like it's also the feelingof like no funeral could have
come close to and, andespecially in the early, early
grief, everything or at leastthis was the case for me,
everything made me so angry andthere couldn't have been a
funeral that didn't make meangry, because I was like she

(15:24):
she deserved more than this,like I don't know, and again,
nothing against the people whoput on the funeral.
No matter what happened, Iwould have been angry because I
had to.
I just had to channel my angersomewhere.

Chris (15:36):
Yeah, just to add further complexity to it as well.
From listening to your podcastand we'll put links in the show
notes to your podcast to hearmore about this, it wasn't
straightforward in terms of theway she died, was it, and that
probably led into proceedingswith police and the body being
repatriated to the States wouldhave taken longer because of
autopsies and investigations andhaving that almost looking for

(16:00):
a perpetrator, which I know fromwhat you've spoken about in
your podcast in recent months.
There's been a conclusion, butso many years on, so it's been a
very complicated death as well.

Hannah Rumsey (16:14):
Yes, and that's one of the many layers I've been
untangling in my memoir is just, yeah, like you said, the
complexities of not knowing whathappened exactly and maybe
never knowing exactly whathappened, because the man who
gave the testimony isuntrustworthy and has been known

(16:36):
to harm many women.
So that has been incrediblydifficult and incredibly scary,
honestly, and one of the waysI've slowly healed that is the
fact that it's now becoming moreout in the open and more public
, and for years it was verysecretive and quiet.

(16:58):
And Lauren's mother, who passedaway a few years after one, she
was desperate to get itinvestigated and was trying so
many things and she wanted thisto be talked about.
So I feel comfortablementioning her.
Obviously, I won't give anydetails that she wouldn't want
me to share, but she reallywanted to take this man to court

(17:21):
and have it investigated.
But she was also really nervousabout being found out or, like
I don't know, maybe the manfinding out she was looking into
it and I couldn't tell how muchof that was her grief, like
causing this anxiety, or howmuch of it was warranted, and so
I got really freaked out andscared and because she it was

(17:43):
sort of secreted at the time Ifelt like I didn't really have
anyone to talk to about it andagain, like I feel like any kind
of traumatic death that youfeel like you have to keep
secret or that has a lot ofquestions and is unknown and is
sinister in that like someonewas very likely responsible,
that adds so much complexity tothe grief, because I truly don't

(18:07):
think we're meant to hold thesethings secret.
I think that that hurts ourbody and our soul and it hurt me
like it was like poison foryears you know you've got all
this going on.

Claire (18:19):
Like you said, you've got a lot you got to keep inside
and it's quite painful, and alot of what you talk about on
your podcast, as well as whatwe've covered before, is that
this is this would come underthe banner of being a
disenfranchised grief, which Ithink adds a lot to that about
having to maybe keep it insometimes or feeling like you
can't fully express what you'regoing through.
So just explain a little bitfor people who haven't come
across that before, why thiswould kind of fall under that

(18:40):
banner.

Hannah Rumsey (18:41):
Yeah.
So disenfranchised grief, foranyone who might not know, is a
type of grief that isn'trepresented as much in society
and also does not have as manyresources.
So it wasn't until probablyabout a year ago.
So, again, it took years.
It was like nine years ofgrieving when I learned this
term and realized, oh my gosh,friend loss grief is

(19:05):
disenfranchised, and itexplained so much Like sometimes
a label can just is socomforting, like you're like, oh
my God, I'm not crazy, it's areal thing.
Some examples like like I tothis day cannot find friend loss
grief groups and I hostedfriend loss grief groups a few

(19:28):
months ago and every singleperson who joined said I was the
first one that they were ableto find and some of them had
been searching for years.
And and that is wild to me, I'mlike like the number of people
who lose friends is staggeringbecause there are so many times
where I'll bring up you knowwhat I do and then they'll say,

(19:49):
oh my gosh, I also lost a friend.
Like that happens all the time.
So, just like the fact thatit's so common, I'm like why
would there not be resources forthat specific type of grief?
It doesn't compute for me, itdoesn't make sense, but, like
the conclusion I've come to, onegrief in general is not treated

(20:12):
very well in society, so that'sa big part of it.
Two friendships are not treatedthe same as familial or romantic
love, and once that clicked forme, I started seeing it
everywhere and it blew my mind,because it's like this hierarchy
that the world set up, whereit's like you know, family and

(20:34):
romance are at the top and then,like below it is, is friends.
And I also want to be clearthis is not in any way to
discount family or romance.
I I just don't want that tocome across that way, but for so
many people friendships areequally important to them and
that's just not represented verymuch yeah, it's shocking, isn't

(20:55):
it?

Claire (20:55):
because you think everyone who dies has got
friends.
So that's a whole load ofgrievers with every death and
for a lot of us, you know,there's been moments when you're
more close to your friends thanyou are your family that's the.

Chris (21:05):
That's the reality.
I think the minority of peoplehave family relationships that
are stronger and preferable tofriendships, because friendships
, you know, obviously you canchoose your friends, you can't
choose your family.
There's almost like phrasesabout that, isn't it?
You can't choose your familyand so friends you can.

Claire (21:24):
But yeah, it does feel like in the majority of cases,
people have friendships that arestronger and more powerful than
family relationships, siblingrelationships, so it's strange
that that is the case and, yeah,it is so hard to grieve a
friend because, well, evenyourself, even if you know that
you were closer to them, maybe,than some of their family
members, you'd still be tellingyourself but I'm not family.

(21:47):
So, you know, it's not right forme to get really sad at the
funeral, because if I'm moreupset than the person's mother
or child or sister or brother orpartner or whatever, then that
doesn't look right because I'mjust a friend.
So, yeah, it's a reallydifficult one.

Chris (22:02):
How have you gone about setting up your friend loss
groups?
What does it look like to meetothers in similar positions to
yourself?
Is it an online thing or anin-person thing?

Hannah Rumsey (22:12):
So the one I hosted where I hosted two groups
they online and that was greatand that I connected to actually
a few people in England, um,and in Canada, just like all
around.
I also want to expand in personand get a like a community
going in Chicago, but I I lovethat modern day so cool, you can
talk to anyone in the worldthat's the one thing COVID did

(22:34):
help us all with.

Claire (22:35):
We kind of got rid of those boundaries a bit more and
we were able to do things a lotfurther because we were all so
much more comfortable with videochat.
Like you said.
It kind of blows my mind insome ways that there wouldn't be
support groups for that sort ofloss when we have so many for
other things, and I could reallysee there being a huge need for
that.
So I think, yeah, that's agreat idea.
Do people come with the samesort of things they're

(22:56):
struggling with in this type ofgrief, or have you come across a
whole range of different thingsthat people find difficult?

Hannah Rumsey (23:02):
So it's interesting because it's both in
that, like everyone'sexperience is so incredibly
unique and individual and I havefound patterns and I've
actually had people say thingsand I'm like I literally said
that to myself and it's like youread my diary, you know like I
literally said that to myselfand it's like you read my diary,
you know like how, did you knowhow I felt?

(23:23):
That's crazy and I want tothink of an example.
So so one example is a woman isgrieving her college friend and
she said she never felt likeshe fully owned the grief of her
friend as much as she owns thegrief of her dad.
And that's a sign ofdisenfranchisement is if you

(23:44):
feel like you don't have fullownership of it.
And for her there was also afear of stepping on the toes of
the family.
That's also something I'veheard many times and that's
tricky because, yes, obviouslyconsider the family, consider
people's feelings and everything.
So it's a balance where youdon't want to be so worried
about it that you feel like youcan't grieve at all or that

(24:05):
you're closed off completely.
So there's a lot of nuance andcomplexity.
Those fears and those doubtslike also like you start to
question your friendship andthink, gosh, were we actually as
close as I thought?
Or am I romanticizing it orglorifying it?

(24:26):
Because you know they're deadand like I think about them
every day.
Now and then I've blown it upinto being something more.
And if you had kind of a termthat is accepted by everyone in
the world, like sister, father,brother, partner, I feel like in
that way it's different.
Where you're like you know, yes, I own this label, but here the

(24:49):
label of friend is verynebulous and you're like and it
can be anywhere from like acoworker you say hi to, to like
like someone who's like a sisteror a brother, and so then
you're like, gosh, where on thespectrum am I Like?
Maybe I'm exaggerating?
And then you just start todoubt, doubt, doubt, doubt,
doubt, and that's something I'vealso seen as being pretty
common.

Chris (25:09):
Those feelings of you know or questioning yourself,
were they amplified in any wayby other people, genuinely other
people saying things thatweren't helpful, making you feel
like you know?
Why are you grieving the lossof this friend so much?
Were there occasions whereother people did do a bit of
damage in that way?

Hannah Rumsey (25:27):
Yes, I think so, and it's interesting because,
like so many people arewonderful, but you remember the
ones that were terrible.
I'm sure more people said greatthings, but the few that I
really stuck out to me were saidincredibly hurtful things that
I think did kind of help churnthe soil of this doubt.

(25:48):
Um, where, like uh actually,and it every time I say this I
mean I can't believe she saidthis to me.
But uh, I had a friend at thetime who came into my bedroom.
She was coming to hang out orsomething.
I'm pretty sure Lauren had diedlike two or three weeks earlier
.
Like it was so, so, so, so, so,so recent, and I had photos of

(26:10):
Lauren on my wall and kind oflike making a shrine.
And I hadn't purposely made ashrine and in that I wasn't like
I will make a shrine, here's myshrine, I was just putting up
photos.
And then it looked like ashrine, not that it matters, but
my friend looked at itjudgmentally and looked at me
and said why do you have ashrine?
And I remember the first thingthat came up for me was I didn't

(26:33):
mean to make a shrine, it's anaccidental shrine, you know, as
if like a shrine is bad, likewhat?
Like it just, and it justimmediately made me feel so much
shame, and so I feel likeanything that someone says when
you're grieving that makes youfeel shame is one of the most
harmful things you can say.

Claire (26:51):
I was just thinking this is a really good episode to
talk about this on, becausethere's a lot of things that
people could just put down aboutyour friendship with Lauren,
the fact that you wouldn't partby several hours.
People say, well, maybe youdidn't see her that often or
that you were young.
People would very easily think,well, you know you're young and
it wasn't like a friendship of40 years, so you know, there's
so many things people couldreally diminish in this, which

(27:12):
makes you feel worse and reallydoes judge your grief.
So it's a really important oneto look at, to show that you
know all of those things, theydon't really matter.
Grief is grief.
You know, you could have knownsomeone three weeks and still
grieve heavily for them.
So it's a really good one totalk about, so people can hear.
You know what you've had to gothrough, what you felt, and then
what you're doing afterwards.
And it's really amazing becauselots of obviously will lose

(27:34):
friends eventually, but you'vedone this quite young in your
life and then you've committedto help other people, help them
get through losing their friends.
So what is it in you do youthink that made you think I'm
not just going to sit and grievethis.
I actually want to go out andhelp other people get through it
.

Hannah Rumsey (27:49):
Yeah, I think that it started kind of
organically because the firstthing I wrote was a one woman
play.
I took a storytelling classwhere we write stories about our
life and then we turn it into aone hour show and it was all
about Lauren and my grief andreally it was.
I did it out of just purenecessity.

(28:10):
Like it was like this All thegrief, all the emotions were
like bubbling and I just had toget it out.
I got an email from someonewho's now a friend but at the
time was a stranger, and she wasjust like thank you so much.
Like you put into words what Ifelt.
For years I also lost a friend.
Like you helped me understandmy grief better and it like

(28:32):
confirmed to me the power ofsharing our stories.
Like, yes, everyone's uniqueand there's so much universality
and friend loss, grief is nottalked about enough, and so,
like, if sharing my story andsharing my feelings resonates
with people and helps them tofeel less alone, like I'm going
to do that as much as I possiblycan.

Chris (28:52):
To dig into that a bit further, because you've written
online about the power in notjust sharing that story with
other people, but with your ownfamily, with your own friends.
That the the feeling of theburden having lifted when you
shared all sort of with all ofyour loved ones, like in the
same room.
Why, why was that sosignificant?

Hannah Rumsey (29:13):
one of the many things I've learned about grief
is that one of the biggestthings you need is to be
witnessed, to be fully witnessed.
And in everyday life, beingfully witnessed is really hard
to come by.
And like in my everyday life,okay, cool, my therapist is
fully witnessing me.
That's not enough and like, atthe time I didn't have the, you

(29:38):
know, I guess, courage or, Idon't know, the ability to sit
my family down, you know, in theliving room and be like I just
need to talk about this.
It was really hard for me toinitiate that, and so, like
writing something on my own andthen performing it and having

(29:58):
them watch it I joke that it'slike a really efficient way to
unload on all your friends andfamily all at once because they
have to go to your show.
So that was like I was like whoa.
I was like art is a conduit forit was just like everything was
like clicking for me.
I was like this is why peopledo art.

Chris (30:20):
Oh my gosh why people do art.
Oh my gosh, and what impact doyou?
Do you know now, on reflection,that it had on those that were
able to, I guess, just hear andsee what you were thinking and
feeling?

Hannah Rumsey (30:32):
yeah, I think I mean my, my friends and family.
I feel like they finallyunderstood the breadth and the
depth of my feelings.
I think they knew that it wasreally hard for me, but they
didn't know specifics or thequestions I was grappling with
and, honestly, just them, meknowing that they now know

(30:53):
almost that was enough and forthem to acknowledge it and be
like I see you, like I'm sosorry.

Claire (31:00):
You know, they didn't really have to say much after
for it to like just do so muchhealing in one hour, honestly
one of the things we often askour guests is around the
question why was that somethingthat you ever struggled with, or
was that something that you sawothers struggle with, with this
sort of death?
Were people asking why?
Or were you asking why did thishappen?

(31:21):
Or why did this happen to me?

Hannah Rumsey (31:22):
yeah, and I never really thought why did this
happen to me?
I thought, why did this happento Lauren?
And it was it made somethingthat I knew intellectually into
something much more real, whichis that something bad can happen
to anyone at any time.
Like the best people canundergo the worst circumstances.

(31:43):
And like, if you told me thatwhen I was young would have been
like yeah, like obviously Iknow that.
But like when you experience itand you see like the best person
, like just such an incredibleperson, go through this horrific
tragedy and you're like theydefinitely did not in any way
deserve it, or like why, like,why, what, how was that allowed

(32:04):
to happen?
Like, and you I definitely likestarted to question like a bit
of my beliefs, like I it didn'tchange the fact that I do
believe in God, but like it mademe realize that there is a lot
of random events.
And I think and this is how Iinterpret it everyone has a
different belief, but I thinkthat random bad events can
happen and then we can make goodfrom it.

(32:26):
But it's not that that badthing happened so that the good
can come from it, because that'sthe everything happens for a
reason thing, which I have a lotof trouble where did that come
from?

Chris (32:36):
who first said?

Claire (32:37):
no, everything happens for a reason were they joking?
Is it an encourage?
I don't know.
Did it come out in anencouraging way to begin with,
or was it not?

Chris (32:44):
like a hallmark card and then, for some reason, it seems
to be one of the phrases thatmost people want to uh ban I'll
just throw around like it justmake things instantly better.
You know, all things happen fora reason.
It's like yeah that's yeah.
I guess some people say oh,thank you, that helps, others
like no, not so much how do youfeel now when you, when you
think about lauren as a friend?

Claire (33:04):
how do you feel now, 10 years on, and has that changed
quite a lot over the years?

Hannah Rumsey (33:08):
yeah, something I've been I don't know if
struggling with is the rightword, but grappling with working
on is continuing to cultivatemy friendship with her and
instead of being like well, the,the friendship's gone, like
connecting with her in whateverway I can with her on the other

(33:28):
side because that's also part ofmy belief system is that her
spirit's still there, whateverthe other side is.
I don't know and that has beenreally illuminating in a lot of
ways, because there are timeswhen I feel really distant from
her, where she feels more likean idea and I'm like, oh my god,
and I get panicky, like I'mlosing grips on her, kind of.

(33:49):
And then there are other timeswhere I'll get such a concrete
sign that like I personally likecannot deny was her and I feel
so incredibly close to her, andso it's like just, it's kind of
like a really really, really,really really long distance

(34:09):
relationship where we'respeaking two different languages
and every once in a while likewe can connect, but like most of
the time it's like hard toconnect.
If that makes sense, yeah, oh.

Claire (34:21):
I had had a question.
It's just gone.
Oh, that's right.
Yeah, no, hang on.
No you go.
Oh rats I have to think.

Chris (34:34):
I think some of the good to have come out of it.

Claire (34:36):
to refer that was it.

Chris (34:38):
Oh, you put it in your words.

Claire (34:42):
No, you go.
I was just going to say youtalked about good coming out of
it.
You know I was going to askwhat the good was.

Chris (34:47):
Well, no, you, because my questions are much more waffly
than yours.

Claire (34:52):
I don't know.
That's true, yeah, because youspoke about good coming out of a
bad thing.
So, yeah, what good have youseen or found that has come from
losing Lauren?

Hannah Rumsey (35:03):
So definitely a sense of community, and that has
been something that it took meyears of isolation and
loneliness for me to realize.
Oh wait, I got to start it.
I got like, I got to dosomething to make it happen,
like it's not just like a like,just like boop join a community
I I wish it was.

(35:24):
And so that's been a bigjourney where I mean, I've made
so many deep friendships throughthis work.

Chris (35:33):
I feel like I've connected with people on a
deeper level than I I would havewithout knowing this kind of
grief, and I feel like I have anempathy and understanding that

(35:57):
you can only get from experience, and I think that empathy and
understanding can be such a giftto other people, to your
friendship with Lauren.
You had friendship in personand then you had the long
distance friendship bit, andthen, when it comes to community
, there's obviously in personand then there's online, and you
know just as humans can becomplicated.
Communities can be complicatedonline and in person.
So have you found there can be,I guess, strengths and

(36:20):
weaknesses in online community,in the same way there can be
strengths and weaknesses inin-person community.

Hannah Rumsey (36:27):
Oh, yeah, that's such a good question.
So, with online community,what's missing and I know this
is going to sound so obvious,but what's missing is that
in-person connection which Ifeel like there's so much that
can be said from the energy thatyou have.
Like, I believe, we can feeleach other's energies of being

(36:49):
able to, you know, touch them,you know, with consent, you know
, hug them.
There was a friend who wasgoing through a really hard time
and I ended up rubbing her back, you know, as she was sobbing,
and later she was like thank youso much for rubbing my back,
like that meant the world andlike those little things, like
obviously I know I'm sayingobvious, but like we can't do

(37:11):
them online, and like there's somuch I think that is lost in
that communication.
Like I have made onlinefriendships that I really,
really treasure and you knowwe'll text, but yeah, I do think
there's a lot missing there.
That would be really nice toget, but you know we haven't
invented the technology for thatyet Teleporting Coming soon.

Claire (37:34):
Or just a hand through the screen, oh no that awful
website.

Chris (37:38):
Awful.
You don't want that artificialarm intelligence.

Claire (37:43):
Yeah, maybe not yet no, there is.

Chris (37:47):
I mean, there's an element and I know, even as I
think these thoughts, it doestap into an area of me about
being judgmental.
But when you see people onfacebook, in groups for example,
you can see responses andreactions that are very instant,
can be very you know, they'renot, they're not considered.
Uh, sometimes in groups likecertainly claire's got lots of

(38:10):
experience in groups aboutmenopause and surgical menopause
and there can be, on the onehand, you've got somebody who's
really well, it feels like,really beautifully and
eloquently sharing their storyin a very believable way, and
then you can get somebody thatyou know utters a one or two
line statement.
It just feels like, really, isthat?
Yeah, that seems a bit farfetched, or?

(38:30):
And it's very hard to acceptthat, beyond any online response
and every online response,there is a human there that's
going through.
You know, maybe it is a grief,maybe it's just a different way
of processing and they can'tcommunicate it because not
everyone's got the same, I guess, level of communication skills.
But then you find that inperson as well, don't you?
Not even being in together?
you still have individuals thatyou'll click with and others

(38:52):
that you'll be like.
I'm a bit dubious.
I don't want to be, but youknow it's we have to.

Claire (38:56):
We have to work on that online in the same way we do in
person that's such a good point,yeah, amen no more to say what
is something that peoplewouldn't really kind of expect
or know or think about, aboutthis type of grief for people
who are just sort of thinkingabout friends losing friends.
Is there something key about itthat you think more people
should know about?

Hannah Rumsey (39:16):
yeah, a couple things come to mind and for
anyone out there who, well, Ithink everyone could know this,
but maybe especially people whoare grieving friends or a friend
is to understand howdisenfranchised grief can affect
you.
It was so helpful when I wasable to understand that that was

(39:40):
the disenfranchisementinternalized and I was like
that's not me talking, that's mehaving absorbed the messaging
I'm getting explicitly andsubliminally every single day,
and then you're able to kind ofprocess through it much easier.

(40:00):
And so I feel like knowing thatcan be really helpful and
having that label and thatexplanation.
And as far as what other peoplecould know, is to kind of do a
thought experiment.
And when you're supportingsomeone who's grieving a friend

(40:21):
because it is disenfranchisedand we often treat it
differently think how would Isupport them if they had a
family member die?
And I think that just kind ofthat thought experiment can
remind them like, oh, whoops, Iwouldn't have done that, maybe I
should send a card or, you know, reach out.
And so, yeah, I feel likeeveryone kind of realizing that

(40:41):
it's disenfranchised can help usto heal and also support others
better.
And I think a lot of peoplehave the fear that bringing up
your grief or bringing up theperson will make you sad, but
the truth is that we're alreadysad.
It actually it can feel reallygood to have that acknowledged,

(41:03):
and so that that's another wayyou can support someone who's
grieving is like tell me aboutthem, how did you meet, or I'd
love to hear more about them.
I haven't yet had a situationwhere people didn't like being
asked about that.

Claire (41:16):
Yeah, that's a lovely idea because people do tend to
think of the family andcontacting the family.
But how lovely is it if you'reon the outskirts a little bit as
a friend, to receive something,that somebody sees you and sees
that you're also going throughthat grief, and that's really
hard.
I think that'd be really lovelyIf someone's going through it
now, if they're fresh in losinga friend and they're struggling
with it.
Is there sort of one particularthing that you'd advise was a

(41:38):
good starting point or thatreally helped you?

Hannah Rumsey (41:40):
Yeah, that's a great question.
So I took a grief certificationcourse from David Kessler
recently and he's a grief expertand someone asked him like how
do we support people?
Do I send them lasagna?
What do I do?
And he was, like keep in mindthe relationship that you have
with them.
So use that as context as towhat to do.

(42:03):
Like are you their neighbor andyou talk to them once a year,
that might look, the supportmight look a little different
than if you're their closestfriend or you know anything like
that.
Like if you are a really,really really close friend or
family member or close in anyway, it might make sense to show

(42:23):
up unannounced.
Again, depending on yourrelationship, you kind of have
to use context clues.
But if you're a neighbor, maybedon't show up unannounced if
they're not responding to you.
So that helped me a lot whereit's like, ok, there's not like
set rules, where it's like doone, two, three, four, five, but
it's like think about yourrelationship.

(42:43):
And yeah, also, something I'veheard many times is like saying
let me know if I can do anythingis very overwhelming for the
person grieving because then wegot to think of something and we
can't think straight Lasagna,lasagna.

Claire (43:00):
Poor lasagna.
It's the official grief food,isn't it?
It's really made its way inthere.
No way.
I've noticed that too.
I know it's not even from ourcountry.
It's like an Italian thing.
Why has it come over here?

Chris (43:11):
It's because it's quite simple and it can do even many
meals?
I guess yeah, and it freezeswell.

Claire (43:17):
I also saw and I think I don't know if it's on your
website or if it's on yoursocial media somewhere I saw it
and I thought, ah, that's a goodpoint.
Was this a statement, sort ofthe funeral then?
Like, go to the funeral.
Was that coming from the ideaof like, don't feel, like you
can't?

Hannah Rumsey (43:32):
go because you're just a friend in inverted
commas, yeah, and I I believeRebecca Feingloss uh said that
and yeah, I think it can mean alot of things where, like, maybe
you're a co-worker or or, yeah,like a friend, and you think I
don't know if I'm allowed or Idon't know if I should, but I
know that showing up to thefuneral can mean so much to the
other people there that like,yeah, if you're having doubts,

(43:56):
it's good to go.

Claire (43:58):
Yeah, I was, I do, verging at the local church.
So I go and open up and sorteverything out with the funerals
and then lock up again, and soI attend a lot of funerals there
.
And I was at one little whileback and there was only about 10
people that turned up from thefamily and there was a friend
there that had just turned upand she sat at the back and when
she came in I was chatting toher because she arrived early
and she said I just happened tobump into the son of the lady
that had died and he said therewasn't many people coming so I

(44:21):
wasn't sure whether I shouldcome.
So I came, but it was a bigdeal that she came because it
was such a small turnout.
I just thought that would havemeant a lot that there was just
that one extra person sat there,that it meant something to her
to attend that.
So I think it's always importantto go if you're not sure.
Like you said, it's always alovely thing for for the, the
family to know and the othersthere.

(44:41):
If there's sort of somebodyfeeling quite alone in this
because, like you said, therearen't many support groups, um,
where's a good place to go.
Where's a good place to startto help them with their grief or
just to feel like they're notalone?

Hannah Rumsey (44:54):
that's a great question, because and so I feel
a little shy because I don'tknow of many others other than
you can plug your stuff okay,because I feel weird being like
come to me, um, but honestlythough, I haven't found a single
other yet friend, grief relatedsocial media account or website

(45:16):
.
So that is the reason why I'msaying feel free to come to me,
um, it's not like I don't know,it feels I don't want to feel
salesy, but also just like emailme, like I've had people email
me, just you know, giving metheir story, and like I'll
respond and I'll listen, and so,yeah, even if you just like
want somebody to talk, to feelfree to reach out to me.

(45:39):
Um, you can go to my website orsend me an email, or or my
instagram we'll put all that inthe show notes.

Chris (45:45):
Thank you and and what are your hopes for Friends,
missing Friends?
Do you have dreams of itbecoming something more than it
currently is, or are you justhappy with the community, the
online, the in-person Chicago,and you know, or conquer the
world?

Hannah Rumsey (46:12):
and that I want the community to grow and I want
enough people to know about itthat I can be like a community
that they can just kind of fallinto, which was something I
couldn't find Like.
I had to work hard to createthat feeling of community and,
especially when you're grieving,you don't have the energy or
the you know to do that.
So I just want to be somethingthey could easily, you know,
fall into, and I, yeah, I wouldlove to be something they could
easily, you know, fall into, andI, yeah, I would love to expand
in-person events, um, and havelike a healthy community in

(46:37):
Chicago, so that really my goalis that anyone who's missing or
grieving a friend can feelinstantly connected and maybe
even find like another friend.
Um, like I, it's like I'm fullof ideas but it's like doing
them.
Yeah, it's hard, but I'm like,oh, I could match people and
like, so there's like so many Ihave.
Yeah, we'll see what it growsinto, but I definitely want to

(47:00):
keep growing it.

Chris (47:00):
That's the, that's the goal there's going to be that
thing.
There's going to be somethingin you.
You tell the truth.
There's going to be people thatwill say to you you know, know,
I've lost my brother.
I'm feeling really sad.
Can I join?
It's like no, it's a brother.

Hannah Rumsey (47:13):
It's not a friend Get out.

Chris (47:15):
There might be some cases where it's like, no, you don't
qualify, this is for friends,missing friends.
But then I guess you know youcan be great friends with a
sibling, can't you?

Hannah Rumsey (47:35):
as well as somebody else, a family member.
It's not friend versus family,yeah, yeah, and that's something
that I think has been trickyfor all kinds of grief groups
that focus on a niche is thatsometimes you have to turn
someone away Honestly just tosay like this probably wouldn't
be the best support for you.
And here's some other greatoptions, because someone who's
grieving a sibling wouldprobably get more from a sibling
group, and I would.
I would try to find some, someoptions for them, so I'm not
just like pushing them out thedoor because I don't want it to

(47:57):
feel like that you need somekind of connection between all
the grief groups really, so youcan sort of pass people around
as they go through new things.

Claire (48:06):
I think, like even with childless stuff that we've been
involved in, as soon as someonegets pregnant in a childless
group, it's like okay, well,they don't really belong here,
anymore, but then they might endup in another group.
You know, let's say they wentthrough baby loss, they might
end up in a baby loss group.
Then they lost a friend.
You know there's so manydifferent griefs we go through
you almost need a directory ofall the different ones so you
can go and like slot yourself in, depending on what you're going

(48:27):
through in life.
But, um, yeah, it's difficulttrying to, you know, categorize
stuff, but, like you said it's alovely way of putting it it's
probably not the best supportfor you.
There's other things thatprobably support better.
So, yeah, that makes sense, andwe talk a lot about hope on the
on the podcast, and I think alot of these groups bring people
a lot of hope because it showsthem there's life on the other
side of loss.

(48:47):
What kind of what does hopelook like for you?
What kind of role has thatplayed in in your grief and just
in life in general?

Hannah Rumsey (48:54):
yeah, I, I love that that you focus on hope in
this podcast and it's it'ssomething that, like you know,
in the first couple years Iwould have I would have wanted
to slap somebody if they don'tget better one day.
I'd be like you don'tunderstand.
And so, like I totally get that, like sometimes it's too early

(49:15):
to be told like there's life onthe other side, because you're
just not ready to hear it yet,and I totally, totally get that.
And there's times when, likeyou're like please, somebody,
show me that, that we can get, Ican get through this, that it's
possible, and it's just, it'samazing how much healing can
happen.
Like I think we underestimatethe amount that we can heal.

(49:37):
I don't know why this poppedinto my head, but like this, uh,
like I think over the oh Imight have the years wrong, but
I think over the course of sevenyears, all the cells in our
body are different and so Ithink that, like, for some
reason for me, that that's kindof healing where it's like you
can regenerate, like your bodyis constantly regenerating, so

(49:58):
your soul can constantlyregenerate too.
And there are so many timeswhere I've looked back and
thought, like 10 years ago Iwould not have believed that I'm
living the life I am now andfeeling the way I am now.
I wouldn't have believed it andI feel like that is a big part
of hope.
Is that, like you don't have tobelieve it for it to happen?

Claire (50:20):
I think that's partly why we're so keen on people or
trying to say that you know,listen to stories of loss before
you go through loss, becausethen when you hit that point
yourself, I'm not saying it'slike, oh, I feel great because
I've heard stories of loss andnow I'm grieving, it's all good,
but I do think in the back ofyour mind somewhere and I've had
it myself I've seen people gothrough a loss, they've survived
it, they've done really wellwith it, and then I've been

(50:40):
through something similar myselfand I've just and it's reminded
me of them and I've thought youknow what I can get through
this, even if it's a tinythought way off in the distance,
and even if you don't want tohear it.
I feel like the more you learnabout loss, the more when you
hit it, there is that sort oftiny bit of hope somewhere that
says you know, this is reallyhard, but one day one day might
be years I think I might be ableto get through this.

(51:01):
And but I understand why peoplealso don't want to look at
stories of loss when they're ina good place, because you know
it's it's depressing for somepeople, but I do think it can be
really helpful.
It's going to happen.
You know, we're not all goingto avoid it.
So I think it's yeah, it'simportant to look at.

Chris (51:14):
So you know, thank you so much for your time and for
chatting and sharing yourexperience, certainly over the
last decade, and you know we'rebig fans of what you're doing
with friends, missing friends,and look forward to there being
a support group setting up ingloucester, maybe, where we are,
we could go along in person andhelp.
I would love to finish thingsby asking the question that we

(51:36):
ask all our guests, and this isabout you know, identifying one
thing that you think over theyears you've grown, you've cared
for, you've nurtured, and youcan almost hand it on as like a
bit of wisdom, a bit of uhguidance, a bit of advice for
somebody else to help.
I got it from the Amishfriendship cake.
There's more on the website interms of where this question
comes from.
But the question is what's your, Herman?

Hannah Rumsey (51:58):
My Herman.
I'm a little worried.
This might sound cliche, but myHerman is love, and one of the
many lessons I've learnedthrough grieving is that love
continues to expand and it'sabsolutely infinite.
And you had a guest that saidsomething similar and I was like

(52:20):
, oh my gosh, I also feel thatway where you can love someone
with your whole heart and youcan love someone else with your
whole heart and you can lovesomeone else with your whole
heart and we're just going tokeep meeting people over and
over and over for the rest ofour life and we can love all of
them with our whole heart.
And I think there were someyears where I felt like I had to
close off to keep my love forLauren close, and I actually

(52:44):
learned that the best way tohonor my love for her was to
open my heart and continue tomake friends and love them with
my whole heart and continue toreach out to others grieving
friends and connect with themwith my whole heart.
So that's been a huge part ofmy grieving journey has been
learning that.

Claire (53:12):
The guest Hannah mentioned earlier was from my
recent let's Chat interview withDavid Kelly, where we asked the
big question where does thelove go when someone dies?
If you love one person deeplyand they die, how is it possible
to love another person just asmuch?
It's a fascinating area toexplore and we loved that
Hannah's Herman is love.
I'm not sure we've had thatbefore.

Chris (53:32):
To find out more about Hannah, you can visit her
website, www.
friendsmissingfriends.
com or find her on Instagram andFacebook.
Just search for Friends MissingFriends, as well as her podcast
.
What's that called?
Oh yeah, Friends MissingFriends.

Claire (53:44):
Gotta love a consistent brand, and we were talking
briefly in our conversationabout where everything happened
for a reason comes from.
Well, I went and looked it upand my brief research suggests
it goes back to Aristotle.

Chris (53:55):
Oh, he's to blame.
Many think it's biblical, don'tthey?
Clearly not?

Claire (53:58):
Well, in fairness, aristotle didn't mean it in the
modern, slightly dismissivesense of well.
This terrible thing must havehappened for a reason.
What he actually meant was thatevery event in life offers us
the opportunity to grow or tolearn, similar to the what
doesn't kill us makes usstronger idea.
Of course, that doesn't mean wewill always grow and learn or
come out stronger, only that wecan if we choose to.
But there are also phrases inthe Bible that are a little

(54:21):
similar, like Proverbs 16.4,where it says God made
everything with a place and apurpose.
But that's more about Godhaving a purpose for everything
he does a slightly differentangle that we can't really
comprehend as humans and goesway too deep, even for our
podcast.
I also found this wise quoteeverything happens for a reason,
but sometimes that reason isthat you're stupid and make bad
decisions.

Chris (54:41):
Okay, for more about us and our quotes, visit www.
thesilentwhy.
com or follow @thesilentwhypodon social media.

Claire (54:49):
I think losing friends is a particular kind of grief
that, as Hannah was saying, isseriously under talked about.
Maybe you've lost a friend, ormaybe you know someone else that
has.
Why not share this episode withthem so they feel seen and
their grief can be validated insome way?
Now we're rapidly heading forour long break away, so this was
actually our last loss episodefor this year.
There's only one episode leftbefore we go away, and that'll

(55:15):
be Chris and I talking aboutwhat we're planning, what the
podcast might look like duringthat time and a general catch-up
.
So keep an eye out for that one.

Chris (55:19):
But this episode we're finishing with a poem about love
by Dick Van Dyke, inscribed ona.
Must be a member of the samefamily.

Claire (55:27):
Henry.

Chris (55:28):
Henry Van Dyke, inscribed on a sundial by the author in
the early 1900s.

Claire (55:34):
"Time is too slow for those who wait, too swift, for
those who fear.
Too long for those who grieve.
Too short for those who rejoice, but for those who love, time
is not.
"

Chris (55:50):
Time is not what.

Claire (55:53):
Well, that last line is actually different in different
versions.
In some versions it says timeis eternity, but either way, he
means love outlasts time.
Time doesn't exist for thosewho love.
It isn't too short or too long,isn't bound by clocks or
calendars.
Love has a power of its own andin the end it's stronger than
time itself.

Chris (56:13):
Ooh, thank you, Dick Van Dyke.