December 1, 2025 • 46 mins
We explore how ADHD shows up on jobsites and in leadership, why admin feels harder than building, and how to design simple systems that create focus without brute force. We share tactics for working memory, notification overload, and consistent growth that fit ADHD brains.
• what ADHD looks like across life, not just school
• inattentive, hyperactive, and combined types clarified
• why phones hijack attention when tasks feel boring or confusing
• the working memory gap on forms, photos, and compliance
• construction admin friction versus hands-on work
• urgency filters and needle movers to reclaim focus
• using a gatekeeper for Slack and email noise
• visual workflows and weekly meetings for accountability
• sleep and exercise as force multipliers for symptoms
• shifting from self-criticism to system design
Listen to our podcast, the ADHD Skills Lab, or message us at unconventional organization on Instagram with the word “James” for the focus chatbot
PODCAST INFO:
the Site Visit Website: https://www.sitemaxsystems.com/podcast
the Site Visit on Buzzsprout: https://thesitevisit.buzzsprout.com/269424
the Site Visit on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/the-site-visit/id1456494446
the Site Visit on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/5cp4qJE5ExZmO3EwldN1HH
FOLLOW ALONG:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/thesitevisit
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thesitevisit
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
Sky Waters and hello.
How are you?
SPEAKER_04 (00:05):
Hi, good to be here.
SPEAKER_01 (00:07):
So all the way from New Zealand.
What time is it there right now?
SPEAKER_04 (00:13):
It is eight o'clock tomorrow morning.
SPEAKER_01 (00:15):
Oh, so yeah, not far off.
We're just like four hours off.
I'm just ahead but behind.
SPEAKER_03 (00:22):
Ahead yet behind.
Yeah, it's actually not too bad.
It's uh pretty good timing.
SPEAKER_01 (00:27):
So um we we've got to uh have this opportunity to
chat with each other based on uhsome of the things in terms of
there's there's some uh areas ofinterest where we we look at the
construction industry and thesort of epidemic of ADHD um and
(00:47):
how that affects people andtheir work.
It's not just entrepreneurs,it's also people on the job
site, too.
Having to focus on specificthings, very, very difficult to
do.
Um so yeah, we're gonna get intothat with you and your
organization called theUnconventional Organization,
which is very cool.
I did look a little bit aboutyour ADHD skills lab, which is
kind of interesting.
I didn't give to look deep intothat, but I kind of understand
(01:10):
where you're going with that.
Um, I'm very uh very interestedin this topic.
Uh I think it's um somethingthat uh you hear a lot of these
days.
So yeah, I I'm really excited tochat with you.
SPEAKER_04 (01:27):
Wonderful.
Oh, I'm happy to answer anyquestions.
SPEAKER_01 (01:30):
Yes, we like the exotic accent too.
It's very cool.
Usually this is just goingaround to Canada and the United
States.
So I've had a few people fromEngland, a few people from
Australia.
It's kind of cool.
So, all right, well, let's getstarted.
SPEAKER_00 (01:44):
Welcome to the site visit on leadership and
construction host in the middle.
SPEAKER_01 (02:46):
Okay, so let's uh let's just chat about ADHD for a
minute.
Can you can we just like get tothe baseline of how this is
diagnosed, whether or notsomebody's just distracted with
life in general, or whether ornot they actually have this uh
affliction?
SPEAKER_04 (03:03):
Yeah.
So so basically, if you haveADHD, it's struggles with
impulsivity, executivefunctioning.
Um, so you know, a lot of peoplewho get really distracted
struggle with uh time blindnessor working memory, things like
that, driven by a motor is athing you see when you're
getting diagnosed using the DSM.
(03:26):
And the real thing that we'relooking for is that it's
persistent and pervasive.
So it's not just on Fridayafternoons, it's happening all
across the week, all acrossdifferent areas of your life,
across time.
It might have, you know, it'sbeen happening since you were a
kid.
That's what people are generallylooking for.
And in terms of diagnosis, toget diagnosed, you have to go
(03:47):
and see a professional and youknow, fill out a form, and
they've got some other ways thatthey can do it.
It differs depending on thecountry.
Um, but I will say I work moreand more now with people who
aren't diagnosed, who justresonate with the symptoms.
And maybe going down that pathis not for them, but they just
know that this is a strugglethat they need help with.
SPEAKER_01 (04:08):
Like they just know something is off.
SPEAKER_04 (04:11):
Yeah, they you they listen to a podcast or they
learn about the symptoms andthey say, okay, well, I'm
distracted a lot of the time.
A lot of this resonates with me.
The systems, the neuro, youknow, normal systems haven't
been working for ages.
So I really want to usesomething that feels like it
might be more my speed.
(04:32):
And so, you know, I work with alot of people in trades, uh, in
Aussie, we call them tradies.
Yeah.
Um, and so, you know, people whoare in that, um, in that zone
and and don't necessarily havean official diagnosis.
SPEAKER_01 (04:43):
I see.
So what is the um distinctionbetween um a the old school ADD
and ADHD?
I know the ones is is hyper, Ithink.
Is that the hyper?
SPEAKER_04 (04:57):
Yeah.
So it's it's called type one andtype two now.
So you get primarilyinattentive, which is the ADD,
looking out the window, youknow, not paying attention to
class, that kind of thing.
And then you get the primarilyhyperactive, which is driven by
a motor, can't sit still, youknow, interrupting all the time,
that kind of thing.
Or you get the combined type.
(05:18):
I'm the combined type for anyonewho's interested.
SPEAKER_01 (05:22):
So that's it.
That is when I was reading yourstory, um, you discovered that
you feel this way.
You have this thing.
Um, how did you discover that?
That what was what manifestedthat for you that you thought,
geez, something's really I gotit.
SPEAKER_04 (05:36):
Yeah, so I've I've got an interesting journey.
I um have been a business ownernow for for many years, but
before that I was an academicand I went through, you know,
did my master's.
I was very classic, like justwork harder.
So everything I did, you know,working two jobs, um, you know,
finishing my masters, justpiling more and more on.
(05:57):
And it got to the point where Ijust could not handle it.
And I actually, you know,finished my master's.
I got told I had a scholarshipfor my PhD and I just quit.
I went and worked at a bakery asa cashier for a year and was
like, I don't know what I'mgonna do, but I can't do this
anymore.
And it was only when I went backto university um a year later
(06:18):
and said, okay, you know, so isthere something wrong?
And like went to their place andthey, you know, did a bunch of
tests on me that they said,okay, we think you have ADHD.
And that's when I realized,okay, it's I'm not just broken.
The systems that I'm using don'tfit my brain.
And I was able to go back intothe research and and look at
(06:39):
systems that were gonna workbetter for me.
SPEAKER_01 (06:41):
Okay.
Now, um, I think I've got somefriends that their kids, you
know, have this diagnosis andthey have medication for that.
I mean, is that a thing?
SPEAKER_04 (06:52):
Yeah, 100%.
Yeah, you can you can getmedication and it's different
for everyone.
Like the kinds of medication youcan get are different in
different countries.
Um, some people take medicationand they're like, they're good,
they're done, that's awesome.
Some people um it's more of ajourney.
Um, so it really does depend.
SPEAKER_01 (07:11):
Okay.
So has this um epidemic?
Let's just call it that, becauseyou hear about it all the time.
Is this a new thing?
Or is it just we've been able toidentify it uh in the past 20
years?
Because when I was a kid, it'sdefinitely you didn't hear much
(07:32):
about this.
So is it because of thediscovery that we're hearing it
now, or was it always there?
We just didn't know what it was.
SPEAKER_04 (07:40):
It's a good question.
It's definitely not a new thing.
Um, it's something that we'vehad around, although I will say
some, you know, you know, theidea of ADHD coaching, for
example, really only happenedaround the 90s.
So it's been there, you know, itwas called different things at
different times, uh, but it'salways been there, especially in
in boys.
It was more commonly identifiedbecause generally speaking, um,
(08:03):
they were more disruptive toclassrooms, which is where you
sort of noticed it.
There was for a while a sensethat this was something that you
grew out of and it didn't affectyou in adulthood.
And now there's moreacknowledgement that actually it
is affecting people in adulthoodas well.
And one of the reasons that itbecame so well known, I mean,
there's there's many reasons,but for a lot of people, going
(08:24):
through COVID was a real wake-upcall to realizing, you know, it
was sort of the the thing whereeverybody's routines changed
really dramatically.
And for the people who that isdifficult for, um, it became
more of a noticeable, like, oh,this is actually really hard.
Or occasionally for some people,they were like, oh, not having
(08:45):
to go into work is really good.
And and it just it was a timewhen everyone started realizing
that there were different waysof working and different ways of
doing things and and that kindof thing.
And there is some conversationthat social media has also
helped because it's become uh anavenue for people like in many
different um spheres of life,people have been able to share
(09:06):
and talk more about you know,more niche situations, such as
experiencing ADHD.
SPEAKER_01 (09:12):
Would you say that the mobile phone is an
accelerator of ADHD?
Providing this thing thatsomeone you can like hop onto
something else because it is theswitching of attention often
awesome uh often.
So and I uh sometimes I findthis okay, and so I'll just give
you an example of something thatI've noticed in my own behavior.
(09:35):
I have a task in front of me,I've gotta sit down and I've got
to do it.
I start to get into it, and whenit kind of gets cognitively
difficult, like I really have tohave some real thought going
into there.
I pick up my phone and I checksocial media.
SPEAKER_04 (09:48):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (09:49):
Like, what is that?
Is that ADHD?
SPEAKER_04 (09:53):
Well, if it was ADHD, I couldn't tell you
specifically for you.
But when I see people who haveADHD going through this
experience, what tends to happenis it's one of three things.
It's too boring.
This task is, you know, we havea bit more of a dopamine deficit
around tasks, and so it hitsthat like boring space for us.
Yeah.
Um, which is obviously a grossuh generalization of how the
(10:17):
brain works in neuroscience, butgo with me on that one.
And then, you know, it couldalso be a working memory
struggle.
So sometimes what happens isactually you sit down to do a
task, and because you didn'tbreak down the steps of the
tasks, and one of the things wecan struggle with with ADHD is
working memory and breakingthings down.
Your brain just goes, This istoo confusing.
(10:38):
I don't want to do this becauseI don't understand how to do it.
And so that can switch you intogoing on social media.
Um, or it can be somethingaround this is emotionally
vulnerable, which affectseverybody, but it can affect
people with ADHD uhsignificantly in terms of like,
I don't want to deal with theemotions of this.
Um, and so that can also switchyou over.
(10:58):
So there's three main thingsthat can do it.
And generally speaking, when Iwork with clients, we have a
step into focus routine.
I take you through how to stayin the zone.
Um, but you're right, havingdistractions like social media.
It's not like we never haddistractions.
You know, one of the things Ioften recommend people buy is
those retro games.
You know, you throw a littleball into a hoop in your office
(11:21):
and things like that.
SPEAKER_01 (11:22):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (11:22):
We we always found ways to distract ourselves, but
it is more designed nowspecifically to take your
attention.
And that is a problem not justfor people who have ADHD, but
just for people in general.
Um, and you know, looking forways to remove that.
But also sometimes we'reunderstimulated.
(11:43):
This happens to people a lot,where people will say, Oh, I'm
overstimulated because I'm on myphone all the time.
But actually, when you thinkabout your five senses, like,
yes, you're looking at yourphone, you're scrolling through
your phone, but you know, you'realso in a super boring office,
you never go for a walk, younever do anything fun, you know,
like there's a lot of otherthings that we can do to
increase our stimulation inother ways.
SPEAKER_01 (12:05):
Hmm.
Very, very interesting.
Um so in terms of the let'slet's just sort of look at it
when it comes to like theconstruction site, for instance.
If somebody is a you know, ageneral labor site worker or
they're they're a tradee, as youyou tradey?
(12:27):
Is that what you said?
So let's say an electricalcontractor, they know exactly
the things they have to do.
Everything's laid out in frontof them.
You know, the they've got XYZpanel, they gotta go rewire.
I mean, it's pretty cut and dry.
There's no inventing going on,but it's just a matter of them
getting through their day andbeing able to focus and do one
task after another.
Is that typically where the ADHDcomes in where they can't focus
(12:51):
on that for a long period oftime?
Can they not get started?
What's the how does it manifestitself typically?
SPEAKER_04 (12:57):
Yeah, it's an interesting question.
So I work with a lot of umbusiness owners in trades.
And one of the things I oftenhear is they want to get off the
tools, but they don't want toget on the admin, if that makes
sense.
So they they're in a positionwhere they're sort of saying,
okay, I can I can go to work andI can work.
Like give me a job, give me athing to build, I can do that
(13:18):
piece.
What tends to be a problem iswhen we have to add in admin
tasks.
You know, you have to take aphoto of the job site by three
o'clock every day.
You have to make sure thatyou've, you know, cleaned up
bits of the site.
You have you have to fill outforms or do equipment.
And that only gets harder andharder when you actually start
(13:39):
running your own thing.
Because now you have to do thequotes, you have to do all of
that kind of stuff as well.
So generally, where we see theproblem, it's not people doing
the task on the job side, it'sit's the other admin pieces that
are the ones that are gettinglost.
SPEAKER_01 (13:55):
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Well, I mean, I don't know ifyou've you you noticed, but the
company that I founded, SiteMax, our our company is a
platform for the site.
So it's the mobile app for yourtime, for your photos.
I mean, you talked about andforms.
Yeah.
And uh so yeah, you'reabsolutely right.
There is that uh uptake there ofthe attention.
(14:16):
You know, I always say that youknow, the the men and women out
there on the on the uh on thejob site just want to build
Lego.
That's what they that's why theystarted.
They didn't do it because theywanted to fill out forms or move
equipment around or all thatkind of stuff.
So exactly.
Um and so does that does thatlend itself to the part that is
(14:37):
cognitively not satisfying slashboring to them?
SPEAKER_04 (14:42):
Yeah, yeah.
Cognitively not boring.
There's a couple of reasons thatpeople struggle with this if you
have ADHD.
One is you just forget.
Like genuinely, no matter what,even though it's like at 3:30,
you're supposed to fill out theforms, et cetera, et cetera.
People just forget.
Working memory can be difficult.
The other one is it's boring,you know, that I'll do it later,
I'll do it later.
(15:03):
Oh, I have to go home, you know,and now it's it's done.
And and the other one is justsometimes it's confusing.
Like people do not necessarily,especially, you know, on job
sites, people will give peoplejobs that aren't always, you
know, it's an interesting onebecause like I said, I work with
business owners who run jobsites as well, right?
So it's like, are you delegatingeffectively?
Does the person actually knowthis, or did you just hand them
(15:25):
an application in a phone andsay do thing?
And then they're like, okay,cool, but like which buttons do
I press?
Like a lot of people don't havethat experience, and so they're
sort of going, okay, if I Iclicked on this thing and it
said I had to do this, and thenthere was another button.
I don't know, and I don't wantto ask because I already got
told to do this job, and so I'mjust not gonna do it.
So sometimes that will happen aswell.
(15:46):
Is that the working memory piececomes in?
SPEAKER_01 (15:49):
Okay.
So would you say the workingmemory if you if you're to take
the brain like a computer,working memory is like the RAM?
Like there's not enough RAM liketo run a bunch of programs.
unknown (16:00):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (16:00):
So random access memory.
Yeah.
So like for instance, like thelong-term memory with ADHD.
Sorry.
Long-term, okay.
So I would look at like the harddrive as the long-term memory.
It's like stuff you gotta go andfind later that you saved
somewhere.
And you know, you can you canrecall that into the attention.
But the rant the random accessmemory is like the stuff that we
(16:22):
need to run our programs in ourbrain, like right now.
So, in other words, yes, likeI'm on the job site, I've just
finished the task, you know,rewiring an electrical box, but
now I've got to take the photoof it, I've got to fill out the
compliance form after.
That's the stuff that I'm stillthinking about the electrical
box.
So I can only have so manythings in my attention at one
(16:42):
time.
Was it five to seven things?
I think is the is the like youcan't have any more than that.
And some of the other piecesthat are in there could be um
like my mortgage renewal iscoming up, or you know, I've got
a someone's birthday thing Igotta go to, I gotta buy them a
gift, like all these other lifethings are going on in there.
So those other spots arecompeting for each other for
importance.
So does the ADHD um make itreally difficult for those other
(17:08):
spots to sort of find theirimportance and priority level?
SPEAKER_04 (17:12):
Yeah, kind of.
It's like this idea of you know,our long-term memory can be
good.
We can remember how to wireelectrical boxes, we've done it
a million times before, thatkind of thing.
But the the thing that Jamessaid on the site today, that's
already gone.
Like we forgot that the secondthat James walked out of the
room.
SPEAKER_01 (17:32):
But the short-term mm-hmm, you know, out of the
room.
Gotcha.
SPEAKER_04 (17:35):
Yeah, the short-term memory.
So that's usually what we'relosing.
And actually, you know, to yourpoint, and I do have a uh an AI
bot you can use for this.
Um, you so you could just do iton your phone.
But if you message me on um atunconventional organization, you
can just message me, James,actually, and I'll I'll give it
to you.
It takes you through how to dothis, how to like take these
(17:55):
tasks out of your brain and putthem somewhere and organize them
and sort them, because this issuch a fundamental struggle with
ADHD.
And it's something that weoften, yeah, you're right.
We have the mortgage in ourhead, we have the thing that,
you know, maybe someone's wifesaid to them as they were
walking out the door, don'tforget, blah, blah, blah.
And then you get on the job siteand they say, Don't forget, X,
Y, Z.
And we just people are justlosing that, especially when
(18:17):
they struggle with ADHD.
SPEAKER_01 (18:20):
So, you know, the advent of applications and
having the compliance side ofthings be, you know,
democratized, if you will, orlike taken away from one person
that was responsible forsomething.
Like in in the old days, youwould come in, you'd punch a
time card, or you would likesomebody would check you in and
then you would just go get to doyour Lego, and you didn't have
(18:41):
to touch a piece of paper orfill out a form or do anything
for a long time.
SPEAKER_04 (18:45):
Yep.
SPEAKER_01 (18:45):
Until you left.
But now it's as you said, here,here's the app, now you do it.
You do your stuff.
Now you're responsible for yourstuff.
Single point of truth, you'rethe one.
Okay, great.
Um that's obviously confusedpeople a lot in terms of like I
(19:07):
think when if you think of thestructure of like high school,
for instance, you know, a lot ofboys go in there and it's just
not designed for them.
It's not.
They're like totally somewhereelse.
They're in a completelydifferent cognitive growth phase
of their body.
They're just like somewhereelse.
So that you know, I think thatthat's the main reason why they
(19:29):
say, you know, like uh heavycannabis use before 21 is a big
problem because of thedevelopment of the brain is not
you know not there yet untilthat age with young men.
Um so do you think that perhapsthe the when an individual goes
into the trades, they feel likethey've kind of gotten rid of
(19:51):
this structured high schoolthing that it you know, they
don't didn't go to university,didn't go to college, they maybe
went to trade school orsomething, and they're like,
okay, well, at least I'm indoing the thing that I like
doing.
And then they get given theadmin part where they're like,
that's feels like that thingagain.
It feels like the homework, itfeels like the teacher feels
like that hierarchy that thatmade them upset and and and
(20:13):
triggered them to be able to notconcentrate.
Do you think that that's there'san element to that in terms of
even minus the ADHD part?
That just makes it worse.
SPEAKER_04 (20:24):
Yeah, 100%.
And and and it's it's actuallykind of plus the ADHD part
because one of the things weknow is that when you grow up
and you have a brain that doesthings differently, like with
ADHD, you get a lot morecriticism, even from nice
people.
They're like, hey, you're doingit wrong.
Hey, you're not doing it thisway, you should do it that way.
And that gets turned into, whenyou look at the research, it
(20:47):
gets turned into self-criticism.
So not only are you coming tothis job site expecting it to be
more, I'm just gonna get tobuild and that's what I'm doing.
But then when there's all theadmin stuff and you're failing
at it, then there's an extralayer of self-criticism that
people can, you know, work within all kinds of different ways,
especially if they don't realizelike, hey, my brain's just
(21:07):
different.
I just need systems that aregonna work for me.
The guy giving me theseinstructions doesn't have that
kind of brain and thereforedoesn't understand that.
SPEAKER_01 (21:18):
So um so when we when you were saying that this
isn't something new, which isfine, did we get clarity on
that?
Do you think it's the diagnosisthat is new?
And it's just always been there.
Or is it worse than that?
SPEAKER_04 (21:34):
I think it's the social media.
It's the social media that isnew.
It's the way we're we're gettinginformation about everything and
therefore getting informationabout ADHD.
It used to be that you know youwouldn't find out about it
unless it was in the news, orunless somebody's kid got it, or
you maybe you got told by aprofessional that you had it.
(21:56):
But because we have social medianow, all of these kinds of more
niche things are something thatpeople are just more aware of in
general.
SPEAKER_01 (22:05):
I do remember, like I was in high school in the 80s.
So I mean, I remember there wasone guy that had to take this
ADD medication.
I'm like, what do you have totake that for?
He's like, oh, I don't know,it's kind of like can't
concentrate, so I gotta takethis stuff.
I'm like, oh, okay.
But there wasn't it wasn't alot, and it was only a couple of
people um in the school that Ifrom what I can remember.
(22:29):
But now it seems like two infive are like on this stuff.
SPEAKER_04 (22:35):
Yeah.
Well, you think about stuff likedepression, right?
It's kind of a similar thing.
But like back in the day, youknow, how many kids did you know
in high school who'd be like, Istruggle with anxiety, I
struggle with depression.
And now people talk about it allthe time.
People talk about it on the jobsites more than they used to as
well.
SPEAKER_01 (22:51):
Yeah, they do.
I mean also I mean there's acultural element to that as
well.
I mean, like what is consideredum it used to be the life is
hard part.
No, I'm always interested inthat.
Like the where do we where do wedraw the line on the life is
hard part to we have now anaffliction?
So I mean, you know, everybodygoes through things, life is
(23:14):
about um, you know, I mean itused to be the we're totally
getting off base here, but it Ithink there's some disagreements
to what I'm gonna say here isthat you know there used to be a
time when you would go and ask,you know, someone on a date and
you would get rejected 20 timesand that's what made you who you
(23:38):
are.
But now you're like, oh, I gotrejected a couple of times, now
I'm depressed.
It's like, well, come on, gottaget over it.
So there's there are there aresome there are some cultural
things that I would agree Iwould agree on that side.
Um, but the the I have a feelingthat the uh and some of the
other podcasts that I havelistened to about ADHD is that
(24:01):
the phone has really hurt.
Um it has made this worse interms of attention.
Um and secondly, um do you haveanything, any comments on the
diet in terms of sugar, uhdopamine hits, all of that
stuff?
How does that dovetail it here?
SPEAKER_04 (24:21):
Yeah, it's a good question.
I mean, the first thing I'll sayis, you know, in terms of, you
know, with ADHD specifically,one of the great things about it
is if you think you strugglewith it, there's a lot of
strategies to help you out, andthen you're good.
You know what I mean?
You're not good, you're stillyou, and obviously there's
things to do, but there's a lotof ways to fix the problem that
you have, which is one of thereasons why it's it's kind of
(24:44):
probably taken off because itis, it has those systems and
strategies.
In terms of the diet, you know,I don't necessarily go into diet
outside of just eating healthy,you know, unprocessed, good food
is good for you, that kind ofstuff.
But when it comes to exercise,one of the things that we see,
you know, there's a paper thatcame out recently, which is like
(25:04):
a randomized control trialmineral.
It was like one of the best kindof papers you can do, like as
close to, you know, this is theanswer as we can do in academia.
And they found that exercise,you know, even just moderate
exercise regularly had a hugeeffect on ADHD symptoms,
emotional dysregulation,anxiety, things that can
(25:25):
sometimes go along with ADHD.
And that was really, reallyhelpful.
So for me personally, what Ioften ask people is like, how
often are you moving your body?
Obviously, if you're on the jobsite, that's easy.
But if you're driving and you'redoing a lot of admin, like you
might be doing less than youthink as well.
SPEAKER_01 (25:44):
So is the is the insulin spike um an issue?
SPEAKER_04 (25:54):
That's out of my purview.
You'd have to talk to there arethere are ADHD specific
nutritionists who could talk toall of that stuff, and that's
that's not something that I thatI cover.
SPEAKER_01 (26:02):
Yeah.
Um The reason I asked that isbecause you know, when when
you're involved in a job wherethere's limited food uh options,
you know, around a job.
So it could be a remote jobsite, it could be a new
development where you gotta godrive for 20 minutes to go get
(26:24):
anything to eat.
And even then it's gonna beempty-caloried, kind of high
insulin uh carbohydrate spikingkind of stuff that's like not
good for you mentally.
And if this is making like let'ssay there's the ADHD baseline,
(26:45):
and then there is you layer thison top, and it's basically like
a like fuel on the fire.
Um I don't know, it's definitelya factor.
SPEAKER_04 (26:57):
Well, anything that's bad for you is probably
gonna be bad for your ADHD.
Like it you are in your body.
So one of the things we know,for example, is that if you're
not getting enough sleep, thenyou can experience symptoms that
are similar to ADHD.
If you already have ADHD, that'sgonna make it way worse.
So, generally speaking, the samethings apply.
You know, healthy body, healthymind, getting exercise, eating
(27:19):
healthy, getting sleep.
These fundamental buildingblocks of just anybody are gonna
also be fundamental for ADHD.
You don't get to like get awaywith it because you have ADHD or
anything like that.
SPEAKER_01 (27:30):
Right.
No, that's fair enough.
Um let's chat a little bit aboutlike the spectrums of everything
has an a spectrum.
So what is somebody with isthere an acute ADHD?
Like something that's justalmost it's almost debilitating
versus like somebody's kind oflike, yeah, I just can't
concentrate.
SPEAKER_04 (27:51):
That's a good question.
Like there is there areconversations, you know, when
you talk about diagnoses, youcan get you know higher and
lower, you know, numberssometimes for you.
SPEAKER_01 (28:02):
Is there a grading system?
SPEAKER_04 (28:03):
Uh not really.
Like there is a conversation insome research articles you'll
see about subclinical ADHD.
So, you know, subclinicalsymptoms that don't quite meet
the threshold, but stillindicate that you know you might
be struggling.
But generally speaking, youknow, if someone says they have
ADHD, they won't then tell you anumber.
They'll be like, I have it or Idon't have it.
(28:23):
You know, even if maybe whenthey did it, they were like, oh,
I scored quite high on theseareas.
Like I really do struggle withinattention a lot.
Um, it doesn't come up in anyparticular way.
SPEAKER_01 (28:35):
Interesting.
Because I like I've had somepeople say to me that no XYZ
person has severe ADHD.
So I'm like, okay, is that likeso is this binary?
SPEAKER_04 (28:46):
You just have it or you don't, or is there like a
doesn't it would be hard to knowwhat they what they did.
I mean, I've I've heard peoplesay they have severe ADHD and
they never even got thediagnosis.
So it sometimes it's just aphrase that people use um rather
than any particular information.
SPEAKER_01 (29:04):
All right.
I'll let that one go then.
But I'm I think also becauseit's similar to like, you know,
with like autism.
There's mild autism and thenthere's like people who can't
function, you know?
Um but uh so what is what causewhat is the I know you said you
should uh you're not anutritionist.
Um do you have any kind ofinformation on what causes ADHD?
(29:28):
Like what is the thing?
SPEAKER_04 (29:29):
Is it that one interesting?
So yeah, I would say like, okay,first of all, I do not have
information on what causes ADHD.
If I did, I would be famous.
Does no one people are trying tofigure it out?
Um they know it's genetic.
That's the thing that peoplereally know.
So it's a genetic they know thatit is highly so if you have it,
(29:51):
if you a lot of times peoplewill find out they have it
because their kids got diagnosedwith it.
That's something that happensmore now as we go through it.
Um or if People might realize,oh, a woman can have it, it
looks slightly different.
And and so mums will getdiagnosed with it when their
kids are diagnosed.
So that happens a lot.
It's it's very genetic.
Um but in terms of what causesit, I mean there's a lot of
(30:14):
different theories, um, butthere's no there's no real solid
understanding.
SPEAKER_01 (30:22):
Okay.
Um so let's talk a little bitabout um your organization and
then how you're helping people.
Um so is give us let's say Icome to you, I've I've done this
test, and I now I say, okay, Ihave ADHD, I run SiteMax, um, I
(30:45):
got a lot on my plate.
And you say to me, Well, James,here's what we're gonna do.
We're gonna get your list andwe're gonna get this 80-20 rule.
We're gonna we're gonna give youthis strategy to be able to, is
it make sense so that you're notso overwhelmed, or what is it?
Like what what is it that thatthat you really help people
with?
SPEAKER_04 (31:06):
So what I do is I take my knowledge of of
neuroscience and how the brainworks and how ADHD works and
research, and I turn I've turnedthat over over a period of years
into systems and strategies thatallow business owners who have
ADHD symptoms to experiencefocus balanced growth.
And we do that by helping youget focused, helping you get
(31:30):
your time back, and helping youstay consistent with your
revenue because we all havethose good months and those bad
months, and we want to stayconsistent and really looking at
how to rebuild systems that youmight already be doing in ways
that work for your brain.
So, for example, your, you know,yes, I've done lists before, but
(31:51):
you've never really understood.
Well, have you done lists inways that support working memory
that help you when you're super,you know, bored and you don't
want to open things.
And so they're really easy todo.
Like, have you learned how tofocus?
So it's not a hundred tips, it'sabout six different systems that
I teach that then become kind ofingrained in your brain.
(32:12):
A lot of people say once theylearn them, they're like, you're
in my head, which I take as acompliment.
And um, and then we help youbuild that up and also help you
build that up when you are abusiness owner with a team,
because you are not just um youif you've got ADHD symptoms,
it's not just affecting youpersonally, it's also affecting
(32:32):
you in terms of how you lead andhow you be a boss.
And a lot of people don't knowthat.
SPEAKER_01 (32:39):
Yep, I can attest to that for sure.
Um so when you have so let's sayyou have the the list, for
instance, and you can jump in atany point here.
So let's say I have a list ofthe things I want to do, but I
also have these overarchingmassive things that are like
(33:03):
these are macro things, and thenI've got like the micro, like I
don't know, daily stuff I gottaget done.
Um what it sometimes feels likeis is you have the
accomplishment of having yourlist and you check those off,
but you still didn't get tothese big things.
SPEAKER_04 (33:19):
Yes, a hundred percent.
But that's really a lot,actually.
SPEAKER_01 (33:23):
That's really tough to deal with because you feel
kind of accomplished, but thenagain, you're like, ah, still
there's that thing.
SPEAKER_04 (33:31):
One of the things I say to business owners all the
time is that your job is not tofinish your task list.
You think your job is to finishyour task list because you see
other people complete their tasklist.
I'm here to tell you their tasklist is not as long as yours.
If you're ADHD, you're adiversion thinker, you've got a
whole bunch of things that youwant to do.
So, what we want to really focuson for you is, and this is
(33:55):
separate from habits, habitshave its own thing.
We're just talking about taskshere.
We want to get you to write downyour tasks so we don't forget
them, working memory.
We want you to have a look atthem and we want to say, okay,
what has to be done in the next24 hours, or there'll be a
significant negativeconsequence.
And if you need help with that,you could think about if your
day went sideways, you ended upin a waiting room and this was
(34:16):
your day.
Yeah, what would you still do onyour phone?
What would you call someone tosay, I can't be prepped for
tomorrow, so I'm not gonna beable to come?
That's the urgent stuff.
Everything else, it doesn't haveto be done today.
And I've worked with so manybusiness owners who come in and
they swear they have 200 tasks,but when they do this exercise,
most people don't have more thanfive.
(34:37):
That creates space in your dayto then go, what are my needle
movers?
What is my 20% that's gonna giveme that 80% return?
SPEAKER_01 (34:47):
Okay.
And then how do you handle theupmanaging of people putting
tasks in your inbox?
SPEAKER_04 (34:56):
That is a great question.
Number one, it all goes in thefilter.
The amount of people uh inboxescan be a great dopamine booster.
People will just, you know, lookat it and you know, put it back
on on read and never reallyrespond.
So, what you want to do is youwant to say, okay, this is this
is my email for you know, and ifyou can get an assistant to do
(35:16):
your email, that's amazing.
Do that.
We talk about that, but let'shave a look at the tasks that
are actually coming from youremail.
Put it in the same filter.
Does it have to be done in thenext 24 hours or something
really bad will happen?
Like if it doesn't fit thatcriteria, it doesn't mean you
can't do it today, but you it'snot urgent.
Like we often we're pretendingthings are urgent.
(35:38):
We're saying, well, I'd like itto be urgent because if it was
urgent, then maybe I'd have themotivation to do it.
But your brain's not stupid, itknows.
SPEAKER_01 (35:45):
Okay.
So I would think otherconstruction owners are
obviously using multiple piecesof software, they're using
communication tools.
Um, everything has anotification on it, and you're
just getting inundated with hey,I need your attention right now,
regardless of whether or not youhave decided or determined
(36:07):
whether that that particularpiece, task, or motion is a
priority or not.
You are constantly getting thesethings.
It's like, oh I'll give you anexample.
So um, you know, we use Slack atSiteMax, and I have so many
Slack channels, and now I haveour accounting is now has their
(36:30):
own Slack channel.
I've got and I've got thirdparties now.
Oh, are you on Slack?
Oh now we can be on that.
I can't, I can't see it all.
Like I can't, I could sit therehonestly all day and just be on
Slack.
But that's not an existence.
I mean, I can't I can't do themacro stuff if that's what I'm
doing.
SPEAKER_04 (36:49):
Yeah, a hundred percent.
And I hear this a lot, and thisis kind of where it comes into
what we said about you peopledon't understand that they are
leading in a way that doesn'tfit their ADHD as well.
Because maybe some people canhandle that number of
notifications, but for us, no,we need it to be off.
So, number one thing I recommendpeople do is they either hire or
(37:11):
they pick one person who is thebarrier between you and all of
these different things.
So instead of having all ofthese people, all of these
different conversations, and Isay this as someone who, when I
first started, didn't do thisand it drove me insane.
Having one person who is your,you know, your EA or your admin
or whatever you want to callthem, whose job it is to get all
(37:33):
of that information, take it in,put it either respond to all the
messages as much as possible,because they'll learn and
they'll be able to respond to abunch of really easy stuff, and
then bring you, you know, at acertain time of the day, maybe
it's the morning, maybe it's theafternoon, maybe it's twice a
day, you know, if you're gettingstarted, the information and
say, okay, this is this is thelist.
(37:54):
And you can just go through andsay, yes, no, yes, no, yes, no.
That is how you can radicallyreduce the amount of inbox,
Slack, notifications, all ofthose kinds of things.
SPEAKER_01 (38:06):
Okay, so once you have um you've determined how
that they can deal with the listissues, um, what else?
What are the other strategiesthat you have that uh you work
with clients on?
SPEAKER_04 (38:19):
The biggest thing I see a lot, um, and this happens,
uh, is when someone says to me,you know, I go, okay, well,
that's cool.
Now we've got a bit of adelivery system going.
You know, you've got your team,they're doing their jobs.
How are we gonna grow?
And people say, ah, you know, Iget referrals.
And that's cool.
That's not how we grow abusiness.
So, you know, one of the firstthings that I want to do with
(38:40):
people is I want to map out howtheir business works in terms of
acquisition, you know, sales.
Are they doing Facebook ads?
Are they doing, you know,posting in different areas?
Like how are they actuallygetting people in?
And then how are they goingthrough and, you know, getting
those people to chat with them,quoting those people, getting
those quotes turned around asfast as possible?
That kind of stuff becomesreally important.
(39:02):
And who's responsible for all ofit?
Because sometimes what we findis that your business flow is
kind of a half-built mess ofideas and things that didn't
work and guys that you hired,but they don't really do this
anymore.
And you're not actually, you'renot actually got a funnel
business that is actuallyflowing consistently.
And if you do, your name is onevery one of those boxes.
(39:24):
So that's a problem as well.
SPEAKER_01 (39:26):
Interesting.
And so are those strategiesrelated to ADHD?
Or I mean these are are thesejust marketing organizational
strategies in general?
SPEAKER_04 (39:38):
They're business strategies built for ADHD
brains.
So for example, I'm not gonnatell you to go away and write an
SOP doc and put it in a big filebecause you'll never see it
again.
What I am gonna tell you to dois draw out a flow using
something like Miro that you cansee and then put it in, you
(39:58):
know, red, orange, green.
So it's very simple, you know,dopamine supporting stuff, and
then build that into your weeklymeeting.
And if you don't have a weeklymeeting, then we teach you how
to have that so that you havethat accountability, those
little dopamine fires thathappen more regularly to get you
to do stuff.
So it's about taking, yeah, thebest of the best when it comes
to AD, you know, businessknowledge and marketing
(40:19):
knowledge, but then combining itwith how your brain actually
works so that you don't just go,cool, I've learned a hundred
thousand dollars worth ofstrategies and I haven't
implemented a single one ofthem.
SPEAKER_01 (40:31):
I see.
Okay.
Um so can you when you meetsomebody can you figure out if
they have ADHD?
Like, do you notice things withpeople?
SPEAKER_04 (40:48):
I mean, I think you do pick up things when you meet
somebody.
I mean, one of the big things isthat we're on the same
wavelength.
And if you look at the research,that kind of backs it up.
You're like, oh, we we we thinkin a similar way, you know, that
because I have ADHD as well.
Um, do I diagnose people?
No.
Keep my mouth shut and and justlet them do what they do.
(41:10):
Um, but yeah, I think, I thinkyou start to pick things up.
SPEAKER_01 (41:13):
Hmm.
So what are what are some of thecommon common things that are
characteristic of somebody whohas that?
Like if you just meet someonefor the first time, is it can
you just tell that they're dothey move on conversationally?
Can they not stay focused on aon a point?
Or is it they move around orthey're constantly looking over
(41:34):
or they're they can't stayfocused?
SPEAKER_04 (41:37):
Depends on the kind of it depends on the kind of
ADHD they have.
I would say that one of thethings might be that they um
they tend to jump around interms of conversation.
So we could be talking aboutthis, and then we could be
talking about that, and youknow, you know, this sort of
ABCF kind of way of talking, um,which I do as well.
And so it's it's it's a greatway to have a conversation to
(41:57):
me.
SPEAKER_01 (41:57):
What is that?
SPEAKER_04 (41:58):
Just the idea of like, you know, if you think
about going down a path, youknow, this happened and then
this happened and then thishappened.
And so for some people, it'slike they're going down, they're
telling you the story.
If you're ADHD, you know, thisis a generalization, not
everyone will do this, but youcould be like, okay, well, I
went out and this happened.
And actually that reminds me ofthis other thing that happened,
(42:20):
which reminds me of this idea Ihad for a new business, and now
we're talking about differentthings.
unknown (42:25):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (42:26):
I've I've I've been privy to some of those
exchanges.
Yeah.
And you're like, what are youtalking about?
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (42:32):
Exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (42:33):
Yeah.
That's interesting.
Um, so when you I think youmight have said this earlier,
but when you said it depends onwhat type of ADHD, what are the
types?
Are are there ever like sopeople come with you and they
say I am XYZ AD ADHD?
Is there designations?
Like, what are the differenttypes?
SPEAKER_04 (42:50):
Yeah, so there's three different types.
You can have primarilyinattentive, primarily
hyperactive, or combined type.
SPEAKER_01 (42:57):
Inattentive.
Okay.
SPEAKER_04 (42:59):
Yep.
SPEAKER_01 (43:00):
How does that manifest itself?
SPEAKER_04 (43:03):
That's the ADD.
So you asked me that at thetime.
SPEAKER_01 (43:07):
Okay, so that's the A D D.
Gotcha, gotcha.
Okay.
And then you have the A D H D,which is the hyperactive.
Correct?
SPEAKER_04 (43:17):
Uh yes.
Yeah.
Well, yeah, primarilyhyperactive, and then you've got
combined.
SPEAKER_01 (43:22):
Active, okay.
And then the combined.
I say, okay.
Oh, gotcha.
Okay.
Um, so the combined is reallylike if we think about people on
the job side or people runningthe construction business, like
the combined it can be a bit ofa debilitating thing to have.
SPEAKER_04 (43:35):
Yeah.
Well, I have combined type.
So I I wouldn't say it'sdehabilitating, it just means
you're kind of a little bit ofeverything.
SPEAKER_01 (43:44):
Okay.
All right.
Um well, this is cool.
So what um what advice do youhave for people if they're
running their business orthey're on the job site and
they're like, ah god, I'm justkind of not I'm not connecting,
or I feel like I'm lettingpeople down, or um, I'm letting
my staff down, or whatever thatis.
(44:05):
Like what what are some of thewhat's some advice you have for
people?
SPEAKER_04 (44:10):
The number one thing I'd say is what you I what I
don't think you should do isjust beat yourself up and say,
you know, I'm a problem, youknow, I just need to try harder.
Uh, because you probably aretrying pretty hard, you know.
Most people are trying prettyhard at that point when they're
having those conversations.
It's usually about, okay, whatdo I need to change about how
(44:32):
these things are happening andhow these systems are running to
make it fit better for me?
And that's the big shift.
A lot of times people will justsay, I'm just gonna wake up and
I'm just gonna hit that wallharder.
But eventually, yeah, wall willbreak you.
SPEAKER_01 (44:49):
Yes, I hear you.
Well, this has been pretty cool.
You know, I've I've learned alot through this.
Um yeah, so how do people get intouch with you on LinkedIn or on
your website?
So you've got unconventionalorganization.com, is that right?
SPEAKER_04 (45:05):
Yeah, you can find me at unconventional
organization.com.
You can listen to our podcast,the ADHD Skills Lab, if you want
to listen to you know,entrepreneurs and and you know,
some of the ADHD research.
Um, or you can find me atunconventional organization on
Instagram, and you can justmessage me, James, if you want
the focus chatbot to help youget started.
SPEAKER_01 (45:24):
That is pretty cool.
Well, Sky, that has beenawesome.
Um thank you very much.
I appreciate it.
It's been really nice meetingyou and uh good luck with
everything that you're doing.
Uh yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (45:34):
No worries.
That was awesome.
Thanks for having me.
Okay, cool.
SPEAKER_01 (45:43):
Well, that does it for another episode of this
late.
Thank you for listening.
Sky Waters and hello.
How are you?
SPEAKER_04 (00:05):
Hi, good to be here.
SPEAKER_01 (00:07):
So all the way from New Zealand.
What time is it there right now?
SPEAKER_04 (00:13):
It is eight o'clock tomorrow morning.
SPEAKER_01 (00:15):
Oh, so yeah, not far off.
We're just like four hours off.
I'm just ahead but behind.
SPEAKER_03 (00:22):
Ahead yet behind.
Yeah, it's actually not too bad.
It's uh pretty good timing.
SPEAKER_01 (00:27):
So um we we've got to uh have this opportunity to
chat with each other based on uhsome of the things in terms of
there's there's some uh areas ofinterest where we we look at the
construction industry and thesort of epidemic of ADHD um and
(00:47):
how that affects people andtheir work.
It's not just entrepreneurs,it's also people on the job
site, too.
Having to focus on specificthings, very, very difficult to
do.
Um so yeah, we're gonna get intothat with you and your
organization called theUnconventional Organization,
which is very cool.
I did look a little bit aboutyour ADHD skills lab, which is
kind of interesting.
I didn't give to look deep intothat, but I kind of understand
(01:10):
where you're going with that.
Um, I'm very uh very interestedin this topic.
Uh I think it's um somethingthat uh you hear a lot of these
days.
So yeah, I I'm really excited tochat with you.
SPEAKER_04 (01:27):
Wonderful.
Oh, I'm happy to answer anyquestions.
SPEAKER_01 (01:30):
Yes, we like the exotic accent too.
It's very cool.
Usually this is just goingaround to Canada and the United
States.
So I've had a few people fromEngland, a few people from
Australia.
It's kind of cool.
So, all right, well, let's getstarted.
SPEAKER_00 (01:44):
Welcome to the site visit on leadership and
construction host in the middle.
SPEAKER_01 (02:46):
Okay, so let's uh let's just chat about ADHD for a
minute.
Can you can we just like get tothe baseline of how this is
diagnosed, whether or notsomebody's just distracted with
life in general, or whether ornot they actually have this uh
affliction?
SPEAKER_04 (03:03):
Yeah.
So so basically, if you haveADHD, it's struggles with
impulsivity, executivefunctioning.
Um, so you know, a lot of peoplewho get really distracted
struggle with uh time blindnessor working memory, things like
that, driven by a motor is athing you see when you're
getting diagnosed using the DSM.
(03:26):
And the real thing that we'relooking for is that it's
persistent and pervasive.
So it's not just on Fridayafternoons, it's happening all
across the week, all acrossdifferent areas of your life,
across time.
It might have, you know, it'sbeen happening since you were a
kid.
That's what people are generallylooking for.
And in terms of diagnosis, toget diagnosed, you have to go
(03:47):
and see a professional and youknow, fill out a form, and
they've got some other ways thatthey can do it.
It differs depending on thecountry.
Um, but I will say I work moreand more now with people who
aren't diagnosed, who justresonate with the symptoms.
And maybe going down that pathis not for them, but they just
know that this is a strugglethat they need help with.
SPEAKER_01 (04:08):
Like they just know something is off.
SPEAKER_04 (04:11):
Yeah, they you they listen to a podcast or they
learn about the symptoms andthey say, okay, well, I'm
distracted a lot of the time.
A lot of this resonates with me.
The systems, the neuro, youknow, normal systems haven't
been working for ages.
So I really want to usesomething that feels like it
might be more my speed.
(04:32):
And so, you know, I work with alot of people in trades, uh, in
Aussie, we call them tradies.
Yeah.
Um, and so, you know, people whoare in that, um, in that zone
and and don't necessarily havean official diagnosis.
SPEAKER_01 (04:43):
I see.
So what is the um distinctionbetween um a the old school ADD
and ADHD?
I know the ones is is hyper, Ithink.
Is that the hyper?
SPEAKER_04 (04:57):
Yeah.
So it's it's called type one andtype two now.
So you get primarilyinattentive, which is the ADD,
looking out the window, youknow, not paying attention to
class, that kind of thing.
And then you get the primarilyhyperactive, which is driven by
a motor, can't sit still, youknow, interrupting all the time,
that kind of thing.
Or you get the combined type.
(05:18):
I'm the combined type for anyonewho's interested.
SPEAKER_01 (05:22):
So that's it.
That is when I was reading yourstory, um, you discovered that
you feel this way.
You have this thing.
Um, how did you discover that?
That what was what manifestedthat for you that you thought,
geez, something's really I gotit.
SPEAKER_04 (05:36):
Yeah, so I've I've got an interesting journey.
I um have been a business ownernow for for many years, but
before that I was an academicand I went through, you know,
did my master's.
I was very classic, like justwork harder.
So everything I did, you know,working two jobs, um, you know,
finishing my masters, justpiling more and more on.
(05:57):
And it got to the point where Ijust could not handle it.
And I actually, you know,finished my master's.
I got told I had a scholarshipfor my PhD and I just quit.
I went and worked at a bakery asa cashier for a year and was
like, I don't know what I'mgonna do, but I can't do this
anymore.
And it was only when I went backto university um a year later
(06:18):
and said, okay, you know, so isthere something wrong?
And like went to their place andthey, you know, did a bunch of
tests on me that they said,okay, we think you have ADHD.
And that's when I realized,okay, it's I'm not just broken.
The systems that I'm using don'tfit my brain.
And I was able to go back intothe research and and look at
(06:39):
systems that were gonna workbetter for me.
SPEAKER_01 (06:41):
Okay.
Now, um, I think I've got somefriends that their kids, you
know, have this diagnosis andthey have medication for that.
I mean, is that a thing?
SPEAKER_04 (06:52):
Yeah, 100%.
Yeah, you can you can getmedication and it's different
for everyone.
Like the kinds of medication youcan get are different in
different countries.
Um, some people take medicationand they're like, they're good,
they're done, that's awesome.
Some people um it's more of ajourney.
Um, so it really does depend.
SPEAKER_01 (07:11):
Okay.
So has this um epidemic?
Let's just call it that, becauseyou hear about it all the time.
Is this a new thing?
Or is it just we've been able toidentify it uh in the past 20
years?
Because when I was a kid, it'sdefinitely you didn't hear much
(07:32):
about this.
So is it because of thediscovery that we're hearing it
now, or was it always there?
We just didn't know what it was.
SPEAKER_04 (07:40):
It's a good question.
It's definitely not a new thing.
Um, it's something that we'vehad around, although I will say
some, you know, you know, theidea of ADHD coaching, for
example, really only happenedaround the 90s.
So it's been there, you know, itwas called different things at
different times, uh, but it'salways been there, especially in
in boys.
It was more commonly identifiedbecause generally speaking, um,
(08:03):
they were more disruptive toclassrooms, which is where you
sort of noticed it.
There was for a while a sensethat this was something that you
grew out of and it didn't affectyou in adulthood.
And now there's moreacknowledgement that actually it
is affecting people in adulthoodas well.
And one of the reasons that itbecame so well known, I mean,
there's there's many reasons,but for a lot of people, going
(08:24):
through COVID was a real wake-upcall to realizing, you know, it
was sort of the the thing whereeverybody's routines changed
really dramatically.
And for the people who that isdifficult for, um, it became
more of a noticeable, like, oh,this is actually really hard.
Or occasionally for some people,they were like, oh, not having
(08:45):
to go into work is really good.
And and it just it was a timewhen everyone started realizing
that there were different waysof working and different ways of
doing things and and that kindof thing.
And there is some conversationthat social media has also
helped because it's become uh anavenue for people like in many
different um spheres of life,people have been able to share
(09:06):
and talk more about you know,more niche situations, such as
experiencing ADHD.
SPEAKER_01 (09:12):
Would you say that the mobile phone is an
accelerator of ADHD?
Providing this thing thatsomeone you can like hop onto
something else because it is theswitching of attention often
awesome uh often.
So and I uh sometimes I findthis okay, and so I'll just give
you an example of something thatI've noticed in my own behavior.
(09:35):
I have a task in front of me,I've gotta sit down and I've got
to do it.
I start to get into it, and whenit kind of gets cognitively
difficult, like I really have tohave some real thought going
into there.
I pick up my phone and I checksocial media.
SPEAKER_04 (09:48):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (09:49):
Like, what is that?
Is that ADHD?
SPEAKER_04 (09:53):
Well, if it was ADHD, I couldn't tell you
specifically for you.
But when I see people who haveADHD going through this
experience, what tends to happenis it's one of three things.
It's too boring.
This task is, you know, we havea bit more of a dopamine deficit
around tasks, and so it hitsthat like boring space for us.
Yeah.
Um, which is obviously a grossuh generalization of how the
(10:17):
brain works in neuroscience, butgo with me on that one.
And then, you know, it couldalso be a working memory
struggle.
So sometimes what happens isactually you sit down to do a
task, and because you didn'tbreak down the steps of the
tasks, and one of the things wecan struggle with with ADHD is
working memory and breakingthings down.
Your brain just goes, This istoo confusing.
(10:38):
I don't want to do this becauseI don't understand how to do it.
And so that can switch you intogoing on social media.
Um, or it can be somethingaround this is emotionally
vulnerable, which affectseverybody, but it can affect
people with ADHD uhsignificantly in terms of like,
I don't want to deal with theemotions of this.
Um, and so that can also switchyou over.
(10:58):
So there's three main thingsthat can do it.
And generally speaking, when Iwork with clients, we have a
step into focus routine.
I take you through how to stayin the zone.
Um, but you're right, havingdistractions like social media.
It's not like we never haddistractions.
You know, one of the things Ioften recommend people buy is
those retro games.
You know, you throw a littleball into a hoop in your office
(11:21):
and things like that.
SPEAKER_01 (11:22):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (11:22):
We we always found ways to distract ourselves, but
it is more designed nowspecifically to take your
attention.
And that is a problem not justfor people who have ADHD, but
just for people in general.
Um, and you know, looking forways to remove that.
But also sometimes we'reunderstimulated.
(11:43):
This happens to people a lot,where people will say, Oh, I'm
overstimulated because I'm on myphone all the time.
But actually, when you thinkabout your five senses, like,
yes, you're looking at yourphone, you're scrolling through
your phone, but you know, you'realso in a super boring office,
you never go for a walk, younever do anything fun, you know,
like there's a lot of otherthings that we can do to
increase our stimulation inother ways.
SPEAKER_01 (12:05):
Hmm.
Very, very interesting.
Um so in terms of the let'slet's just sort of look at it
when it comes to like theconstruction site, for instance.
If somebody is a you know, ageneral labor site worker or
they're they're a tradee, as youyou tradey?
(12:27):
Is that what you said?
So let's say an electricalcontractor, they know exactly
the things they have to do.
Everything's laid out in frontof them.
You know, the they've got XYZpanel, they gotta go rewire.
I mean, it's pretty cut and dry.
There's no inventing going on,but it's just a matter of them
getting through their day andbeing able to focus and do one
task after another.
Is that typically where the ADHDcomes in where they can't focus
(12:51):
on that for a long period oftime?
Can they not get started?
What's the how does it manifestitself typically?
SPEAKER_04 (12:57):
Yeah, it's an interesting question.
So I work with a lot of umbusiness owners in trades.
And one of the things I oftenhear is they want to get off the
tools, but they don't want toget on the admin, if that makes
sense.
So they they're in a positionwhere they're sort of saying,
okay, I can I can go to work andI can work.
Like give me a job, give me athing to build, I can do that
(13:18):
piece.
What tends to be a problem iswhen we have to add in admin
tasks.
You know, you have to take aphoto of the job site by three
o'clock every day.
You have to make sure thatyou've, you know, cleaned up
bits of the site.
You have you have to fill outforms or do equipment.
And that only gets harder andharder when you actually start
(13:39):
running your own thing.
Because now you have to do thequotes, you have to do all of
that kind of stuff as well.
So generally, where we see theproblem, it's not people doing
the task on the job side, it'sit's the other admin pieces that
are the ones that are gettinglost.
SPEAKER_01 (13:55):
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Well, I mean, I don't know ifyou've you you noticed, but the
company that I founded, SiteMax, our our company is a
platform for the site.
So it's the mobile app for yourtime, for your photos.
I mean, you talked about andforms.
Yeah.
And uh so yeah, you'reabsolutely right.
There is that uh uptake there ofthe attention.
(14:16):
You know, I always say that youknow, the the men and women out
there on the on the uh on thejob site just want to build
Lego.
That's what they that's why theystarted.
They didn't do it because theywanted to fill out forms or move
equipment around or all thatkind of stuff.
So exactly.
Um and so does that does thatlend itself to the part that is
(14:37):
cognitively not satisfying slashboring to them?
SPEAKER_04 (14:42):
Yeah, yeah.
Cognitively not boring.
There's a couple of reasons thatpeople struggle with this if you
have ADHD.
One is you just forget.
Like genuinely, no matter what,even though it's like at 3:30,
you're supposed to fill out theforms, et cetera, et cetera.
People just forget.
Working memory can be difficult.
The other one is it's boring,you know, that I'll do it later,
I'll do it later.
(15:03):
Oh, I have to go home, you know,and now it's it's done.
And and the other one is justsometimes it's confusing.
Like people do not necessarily,especially, you know, on job
sites, people will give peoplejobs that aren't always, you
know, it's an interesting onebecause like I said, I work with
business owners who run jobsites as well, right?
So it's like, are you delegatingeffectively?
Does the person actually knowthis, or did you just hand them
(15:25):
an application in a phone andsay do thing?
And then they're like, okay,cool, but like which buttons do
I press?
Like a lot of people don't havethat experience, and so they're
sort of going, okay, if I Iclicked on this thing and it
said I had to do this, and thenthere was another button.
I don't know, and I don't wantto ask because I already got
told to do this job, and so I'mjust not gonna do it.
So sometimes that will happen aswell.
(15:46):
Is that the working memory piececomes in?
SPEAKER_01 (15:49):
Okay.
So would you say the workingmemory if you if you're to take
the brain like a computer,working memory is like the RAM?
Like there's not enough RAM liketo run a bunch of programs.
unknown (16:00):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (16:00):
So random access memory.
Yeah.
So like for instance, like thelong-term memory with ADHD.
Sorry.
Long-term, okay.
So I would look at like the harddrive as the long-term memory.
It's like stuff you gotta go andfind later that you saved
somewhere.
And you know, you can you canrecall that into the attention.
But the rant the random accessmemory is like the stuff that we
(16:22):
need to run our programs in ourbrain, like right now.
So, in other words, yes, likeI'm on the job site, I've just
finished the task, you know,rewiring an electrical box, but
now I've got to take the photoof it, I've got to fill out the
compliance form after.
That's the stuff that I'm stillthinking about the electrical
box.
So I can only have so manythings in my attention at one
(16:42):
time.
Was it five to seven things?
I think is the is the like youcan't have any more than that.
And some of the other piecesthat are in there could be um
like my mortgage renewal iscoming up, or you know, I've got
a someone's birthday thing Igotta go to, I gotta buy them a
gift, like all these other lifethings are going on in there.
So those other spots arecompeting for each other for
importance.
So does the ADHD um make itreally difficult for those other
(17:08):
spots to sort of find theirimportance and priority level?
SPEAKER_04 (17:12):
Yeah, kind of.
It's like this idea of you know,our long-term memory can be
good.
We can remember how to wireelectrical boxes, we've done it
a million times before, thatkind of thing.
But the the thing that Jamessaid on the site today, that's
already gone.
Like we forgot that the secondthat James walked out of the
room.
SPEAKER_01 (17:32):
But the short-term mm-hmm, you know, out of the
room.
Gotcha.
SPEAKER_04 (17:35):
Yeah, the short-term memory.
So that's usually what we'relosing.
And actually, you know, to yourpoint, and I do have a uh an AI
bot you can use for this.
Um, you so you could just do iton your phone.
But if you message me on um atunconventional organization, you
can just message me, James,actually, and I'll I'll give it
to you.
It takes you through how to dothis, how to like take these
(17:55):
tasks out of your brain and putthem somewhere and organize them
and sort them, because this issuch a fundamental struggle with
ADHD.
And it's something that weoften, yeah, you're right.
We have the mortgage in ourhead, we have the thing that,
you know, maybe someone's wifesaid to them as they were
walking out the door, don'tforget, blah, blah, blah.
And then you get on the job siteand they say, Don't forget, X,
Y, Z.
And we just people are justlosing that, especially when
(18:17):
they struggle with ADHD.
SPEAKER_01 (18:20):
So, you know, the advent of applications and
having the compliance side ofthings be, you know,
democratized, if you will, orlike taken away from one person
that was responsible forsomething.
Like in in the old days, youwould come in, you'd punch a
time card, or you would likesomebody would check you in and
then you would just go get to doyour Lego, and you didn't have
(18:41):
to touch a piece of paper orfill out a form or do anything
for a long time.
SPEAKER_04 (18:45):
Yep.
SPEAKER_01 (18:45):
Until you left.
But now it's as you said, here,here's the app, now you do it.
You do your stuff.
Now you're responsible for yourstuff.
Single point of truth, you'rethe one.
Okay, great.
Um that's obviously confusedpeople a lot in terms of like I
(19:07):
think when if you think of thestructure of like high school,
for instance, you know, a lot ofboys go in there and it's just
not designed for them.
It's not.
They're like totally somewhereelse.
They're in a completelydifferent cognitive growth phase
of their body.
They're just like somewhereelse.
So that you know, I think thatthat's the main reason why they
(19:29):
say, you know, like uh heavycannabis use before 21 is a big
problem because of thedevelopment of the brain is not
you know not there yet untilthat age with young men.
Um so do you think that perhapsthe the when an individual goes
into the trades, they feel likethey've kind of gotten rid of
(19:51):
this structured high schoolthing that it you know, they
don't didn't go to university,didn't go to college, they maybe
went to trade school orsomething, and they're like,
okay, well, at least I'm indoing the thing that I like
doing.
And then they get given theadmin part where they're like,
that's feels like that thingagain.
It feels like the homework, itfeels like the teacher feels
like that hierarchy that thatmade them upset and and and
(20:13):
triggered them to be able to notconcentrate.
Do you think that that's there'san element to that in terms of
even minus the ADHD part?
That just makes it worse.
SPEAKER_04 (20:24):
Yeah, 100%.
And and and it's it's actuallykind of plus the ADHD part
because one of the things weknow is that when you grow up
and you have a brain that doesthings differently, like with
ADHD, you get a lot morecriticism, even from nice
people.
They're like, hey, you're doingit wrong.
Hey, you're not doing it thisway, you should do it that way.
And that gets turned into, whenyou look at the research, it
(20:47):
gets turned into self-criticism.
So not only are you coming tothis job site expecting it to be
more, I'm just gonna get tobuild and that's what I'm doing.
But then when there's all theadmin stuff and you're failing
at it, then there's an extralayer of self-criticism that
people can, you know, work within all kinds of different ways,
especially if they don't realizelike, hey, my brain's just
(21:07):
different.
I just need systems that aregonna work for me.
The guy giving me theseinstructions doesn't have that
kind of brain and thereforedoesn't understand that.
SPEAKER_01 (21:18):
So um so when we when you were saying that this
isn't something new, which isfine, did we get clarity on
that?
Do you think it's the diagnosisthat is new?
And it's just always been there.
Or is it worse than that?
SPEAKER_04 (21:34):
I think it's the social media.
It's the social media that isnew.
It's the way we're we're gettinginformation about everything and
therefore getting informationabout ADHD.
It used to be that you know youwouldn't find out about it
unless it was in the news, orunless somebody's kid got it, or
you maybe you got told by aprofessional that you had it.
(21:56):
But because we have social medianow, all of these kinds of more
niche things are something thatpeople are just more aware of in
general.
SPEAKER_01 (22:05):
I do remember, like I was in high school in the 80s.
So I mean, I remember there wasone guy that had to take this
ADD medication.
I'm like, what do you have totake that for?
He's like, oh, I don't know,it's kind of like can't
concentrate, so I gotta takethis stuff.
I'm like, oh, okay.
But there wasn't it wasn't alot, and it was only a couple of
people um in the school that Ifrom what I can remember.
(22:29):
But now it seems like two infive are like on this stuff.
SPEAKER_04 (22:35):
Yeah.
Well, you think about stuff likedepression, right?
It's kind of a similar thing.
But like back in the day, youknow, how many kids did you know
in high school who'd be like, Istruggle with anxiety, I
struggle with depression.
And now people talk about it allthe time.
People talk about it on the jobsites more than they used to as
well.
SPEAKER_01 (22:51):
Yeah, they do.
I mean also I mean there's acultural element to that as
well.
I mean, like what is consideredum it used to be the life is
hard part.
No, I'm always interested inthat.
Like the where do we where do wedraw the line on the life is
hard part to we have now anaffliction?
So I mean, you know, everybodygoes through things, life is
(23:14):
about um, you know, I mean itused to be the we're totally
getting off base here, but it Ithink there's some disagreements
to what I'm gonna say here isthat you know there used to be a
time when you would go and ask,you know, someone on a date and
you would get rejected 20 timesand that's what made you who you
(23:38):
are.
But now you're like, oh, I gotrejected a couple of times, now
I'm depressed.
It's like, well, come on, gottaget over it.
So there's there are there aresome there are some cultural
things that I would agree Iwould agree on that side.
Um, but the the I have a feelingthat the uh and some of the
other podcasts that I havelistened to about ADHD is that
(24:01):
the phone has really hurt.
Um it has made this worse interms of attention.
Um and secondly, um do you haveanything, any comments on the
diet in terms of sugar, uhdopamine hits, all of that
stuff?
How does that dovetail it here?
SPEAKER_04 (24:21):
Yeah, it's a good question.
I mean, the first thing I'll sayis, you know, in terms of, you
know, with ADHD specifically,one of the great things about it
is if you think you strugglewith it, there's a lot of
strategies to help you out, andthen you're good.
You know what I mean?
You're not good, you're stillyou, and obviously there's
things to do, but there's a lotof ways to fix the problem that
you have, which is one of thereasons why it's it's kind of
(24:44):
probably taken off because itis, it has those systems and
strategies.
In terms of the diet, you know,I don't necessarily go into diet
outside of just eating healthy,you know, unprocessed, good food
is good for you, that kind ofstuff.
But when it comes to exercise,one of the things that we see,
you know, there's a paper thatcame out recently, which is like
(25:04):
a randomized control trialmineral.
It was like one of the best kindof papers you can do, like as
close to, you know, this is theanswer as we can do in academia.
And they found that exercise,you know, even just moderate
exercise regularly had a hugeeffect on ADHD symptoms,
emotional dysregulation,anxiety, things that can
(25:25):
sometimes go along with ADHD.
And that was really, reallyhelpful.
So for me personally, what Ioften ask people is like, how
often are you moving your body?
Obviously, if you're on the jobsite, that's easy.
But if you're driving and you'redoing a lot of admin, like you
might be doing less than youthink as well.
SPEAKER_01 (25:44):
So is the is the insulin spike um an issue?
SPEAKER_04 (25:54):
That's out of my purview.
You'd have to talk to there arethere are ADHD specific
nutritionists who could talk toall of that stuff, and that's
that's not something that I thatI cover.
SPEAKER_01 (26:02):
Yeah.
Um The reason I asked that isbecause you know, when when
you're involved in a job wherethere's limited food uh options,
you know, around a job.
So it could be a remote jobsite, it could be a new
development where you gotta godrive for 20 minutes to go get
(26:24):
anything to eat.
And even then it's gonna beempty-caloried, kind of high
insulin uh carbohydrate spikingkind of stuff that's like not
good for you mentally.
And if this is making like let'ssay there's the ADHD baseline,
(26:45):
and then there is you layer thison top, and it's basically like
a like fuel on the fire.
Um I don't know, it's definitelya factor.
SPEAKER_04 (26:57):
Well, anything that's bad for you is probably
gonna be bad for your ADHD.
Like it you are in your body.
So one of the things we know,for example, is that if you're
not getting enough sleep, thenyou can experience symptoms that
are similar to ADHD.
If you already have ADHD, that'sgonna make it way worse.
So, generally speaking, the samethings apply.
You know, healthy body, healthymind, getting exercise, eating
(27:19):
healthy, getting sleep.
These fundamental buildingblocks of just anybody are gonna
also be fundamental for ADHD.
You don't get to like get awaywith it because you have ADHD or
anything like that.
SPEAKER_01 (27:30):
Right.
No, that's fair enough.
Um let's chat a little bit aboutlike the spectrums of everything
has an a spectrum.
So what is somebody with isthere an acute ADHD?
Like something that's justalmost it's almost debilitating
versus like somebody's kind oflike, yeah, I just can't
concentrate.
SPEAKER_04 (27:51):
That's a good question.
Like there is there areconversations, you know, when
you talk about diagnoses, youcan get you know higher and
lower, you know, numberssometimes for you.
SPEAKER_01 (28:02):
Is there a grading system?
SPEAKER_04 (28:03):
Uh not really.
Like there is a conversation insome research articles you'll
see about subclinical ADHD.
So, you know, subclinicalsymptoms that don't quite meet
the threshold, but stillindicate that you know you might
be struggling.
But generally speaking, youknow, if someone says they have
ADHD, they won't then tell you anumber.
They'll be like, I have it or Idon't have it.
(28:23):
You know, even if maybe whenthey did it, they were like, oh,
I scored quite high on theseareas.
Like I really do struggle withinattention a lot.
Um, it doesn't come up in anyparticular way.
SPEAKER_01 (28:35):
Interesting.
Because I like I've had somepeople say to me that no XYZ
person has severe ADHD.
So I'm like, okay, is that likeso is this binary?
SPEAKER_04 (28:46):
You just have it or you don't, or is there like a
doesn't it would be hard to knowwhat they what they did.
I mean, I've I've heard peoplesay they have severe ADHD and
they never even got thediagnosis.
So it sometimes it's just aphrase that people use um rather
than any particular information.
SPEAKER_01 (29:04):
All right.
I'll let that one go then.
But I'm I think also becauseit's similar to like, you know,
with like autism.
There's mild autism and thenthere's like people who can't
function, you know?
Um but uh so what is what causewhat is the I know you said you
should uh you're not anutritionist.
Um do you have any kind ofinformation on what causes ADHD?
(29:28):
Like what is the thing?
SPEAKER_04 (29:29):
Is it that one interesting?
So yeah, I would say like, okay,first of all, I do not have
information on what causes ADHD.
If I did, I would be famous.
Does no one people are trying tofigure it out?
Um they know it's genetic.
That's the thing that peoplereally know.
So it's a genetic they know thatit is highly so if you have it,
(29:51):
if you a lot of times peoplewill find out they have it
because their kids got diagnosedwith it.
That's something that happensmore now as we go through it.
Um or if People might realize,oh, a woman can have it, it
looks slightly different.
And and so mums will getdiagnosed with it when their
kids are diagnosed.
So that happens a lot.
It's it's very genetic.
Um but in terms of what causesit, I mean there's a lot of
(30:14):
different theories, um, butthere's no there's no real solid
understanding.
SPEAKER_01 (30:22):
Okay.
Um so let's talk a little bitabout um your organization and
then how you're helping people.
Um so is give us let's say Icome to you, I've I've done this
test, and I now I say, okay, Ihave ADHD, I run SiteMax, um, I
(30:45):
got a lot on my plate.
And you say to me, Well, James,here's what we're gonna do.
We're gonna get your list andwe're gonna get this 80-20 rule.
We're gonna we're gonna give youthis strategy to be able to, is
it make sense so that you're notso overwhelmed, or what is it?
Like what what is it that thatthat you really help people
with?
SPEAKER_04 (31:06):
So what I do is I take my knowledge of of
neuroscience and how the brainworks and how ADHD works and
research, and I turn I've turnedthat over over a period of years
into systems and strategies thatallow business owners who have
ADHD symptoms to experiencefocus balanced growth.
And we do that by helping youget focused, helping you get
(31:30):
your time back, and helping youstay consistent with your
revenue because we all havethose good months and those bad
months, and we want to stayconsistent and really looking at
how to rebuild systems that youmight already be doing in ways
that work for your brain.
So, for example, your, you know,yes, I've done lists before, but
(31:51):
you've never really understood.
Well, have you done lists inways that support working memory
that help you when you're super,you know, bored and you don't
want to open things.
And so they're really easy todo.
Like, have you learned how tofocus?
So it's not a hundred tips, it'sabout six different systems that
I teach that then become kind ofingrained in your brain.
(32:12):
A lot of people say once theylearn them, they're like, you're
in my head, which I take as acompliment.
And um, and then we help youbuild that up and also help you
build that up when you are abusiness owner with a team,
because you are not just um youif you've got ADHD symptoms,
it's not just affecting youpersonally, it's also affecting
(32:32):
you in terms of how you lead andhow you be a boss.
And a lot of people don't knowthat.
SPEAKER_01 (32:39):
Yep, I can attest to that for sure.
Um so when you have so let's sayyou have the the list, for
instance, and you can jump in atany point here.
So let's say I have a list ofthe things I want to do, but I
also have these overarchingmassive things that are like
(33:03):
these are macro things, and thenI've got like the micro, like I
don't know, daily stuff I gottaget done.
Um what it sometimes feels likeis is you have the
accomplishment of having yourlist and you check those off,
but you still didn't get tothese big things.
SPEAKER_04 (33:19):
Yes, a hundred percent.
But that's really a lot,actually.
SPEAKER_01 (33:23):
That's really tough to deal with because you feel
kind of accomplished, but thenagain, you're like, ah, still
there's that thing.
SPEAKER_04 (33:31):
One of the things I say to business owners all the
time is that your job is not tofinish your task list.
You think your job is to finishyour task list because you see
other people complete their tasklist.
I'm here to tell you their tasklist is not as long as yours.
If you're ADHD, you're adiversion thinker, you've got a
whole bunch of things that youwant to do.
So, what we want to really focuson for you is, and this is
(33:55):
separate from habits, habitshave its own thing.
We're just talking about taskshere.
We want to get you to write downyour tasks so we don't forget
them, working memory.
We want you to have a look atthem and we want to say, okay,
what has to be done in the next24 hours, or there'll be a
significant negativeconsequence.
And if you need help with that,you could think about if your
day went sideways, you ended upin a waiting room and this was
(34:16):
your day.
Yeah, what would you still do onyour phone?
What would you call someone tosay, I can't be prepped for
tomorrow, so I'm not gonna beable to come?
That's the urgent stuff.
Everything else, it doesn't haveto be done today.
And I've worked with so manybusiness owners who come in and
they swear they have 200 tasks,but when they do this exercise,
most people don't have more thanfive.
(34:37):
That creates space in your dayto then go, what are my needle
movers?
What is my 20% that's gonna giveme that 80% return?
SPEAKER_01 (34:47):
Okay.
And then how do you handle theupmanaging of people putting
tasks in your inbox?
SPEAKER_04 (34:56):
That is a great question.
Number one, it all goes in thefilter.
The amount of people uh inboxescan be a great dopamine booster.
People will just, you know, lookat it and you know, put it back
on on read and never reallyrespond.
So, what you want to do is youwant to say, okay, this is this
is my email for you know, and ifyou can get an assistant to do
(35:16):
your email, that's amazing.
Do that.
We talk about that, but let'shave a look at the tasks that
are actually coming from youremail.
Put it in the same filter.
Does it have to be done in thenext 24 hours or something
really bad will happen?
Like if it doesn't fit thatcriteria, it doesn't mean you
can't do it today, but you it'snot urgent.
Like we often we're pretendingthings are urgent.
(35:38):
We're saying, well, I'd like itto be urgent because if it was
urgent, then maybe I'd have themotivation to do it.
But your brain's not stupid, itknows.
SPEAKER_01 (35:45):
Okay.
So I would think otherconstruction owners are
obviously using multiple piecesof software, they're using
communication tools.
Um, everything has anotification on it, and you're
just getting inundated with hey,I need your attention right now,
regardless of whether or not youhave decided or determined
(36:07):
whether that that particularpiece, task, or motion is a
priority or not.
You are constantly getting thesethings.
It's like, oh I'll give you anexample.
So um, you know, we use Slack atSiteMax, and I have so many
Slack channels, and now I haveour accounting is now has their
(36:30):
own Slack channel.
I've got and I've got thirdparties now.
Oh, are you on Slack?
Oh now we can be on that.
I can't, I can't see it all.
Like I can't, I could sit therehonestly all day and just be on
Slack.
But that's not an existence.
I mean, I can't I can't do themacro stuff if that's what I'm
doing.
SPEAKER_04 (36:49):
Yeah, a hundred percent.
And I hear this a lot, and thisis kind of where it comes into
what we said about you peopledon't understand that they are
leading in a way that doesn'tfit their ADHD as well.
Because maybe some people canhandle that number of
notifications, but for us, no,we need it to be off.
So, number one thing I recommendpeople do is they either hire or
(37:11):
they pick one person who is thebarrier between you and all of
these different things.
So instead of having all ofthese people, all of these
different conversations, and Isay this as someone who, when I
first started, didn't do thisand it drove me insane.
Having one person who is your,you know, your EA or your admin
or whatever you want to callthem, whose job it is to get all
(37:33):
of that information, take it in,put it either respond to all the
messages as much as possible,because they'll learn and
they'll be able to respond to abunch of really easy stuff, and
then bring you, you know, at acertain time of the day, maybe
it's the morning, maybe it's theafternoon, maybe it's twice a
day, you know, if you're gettingstarted, the information and
say, okay, this is this is thelist.
(37:54):
And you can just go through andsay, yes, no, yes, no, yes, no.
That is how you can radicallyreduce the amount of inbox,
Slack, notifications, all ofthose kinds of things.
SPEAKER_01 (38:06):
Okay, so once you have um you've determined how
that they can deal with the listissues, um, what else?
What are the other strategiesthat you have that uh you work
with clients on?
SPEAKER_04 (38:19):
The biggest thing I see a lot, um, and this happens,
uh, is when someone says to me,you know, I go, okay, well,
that's cool.
Now we've got a bit of adelivery system going.
You know, you've got your team,they're doing their jobs.
How are we gonna grow?
And people say, ah, you know, Iget referrals.
And that's cool.
That's not how we grow abusiness.
So, you know, one of the firstthings that I want to do with
(38:40):
people is I want to map out howtheir business works in terms of
acquisition, you know, sales.
Are they doing Facebook ads?
Are they doing, you know,posting in different areas?
Like how are they actuallygetting people in?
And then how are they goingthrough and, you know, getting
those people to chat with them,quoting those people, getting
those quotes turned around asfast as possible?
That kind of stuff becomesreally important.
(39:02):
And who's responsible for all ofit?
Because sometimes what we findis that your business flow is
kind of a half-built mess ofideas and things that didn't
work and guys that you hired,but they don't really do this
anymore.
And you're not actually, you'renot actually got a funnel
business that is actuallyflowing consistently.
And if you do, your name is onevery one of those boxes.
(39:24):
So that's a problem as well.
SPEAKER_01 (39:26):
Interesting.
And so are those strategiesrelated to ADHD?
Or I mean these are are thesejust marketing organizational
strategies in general?
SPEAKER_04 (39:38):
They're business strategies built for ADHD
brains.
So for example, I'm not gonnatell you to go away and write an
SOP doc and put it in a big filebecause you'll never see it
again.
What I am gonna tell you to dois draw out a flow using
something like Miro that you cansee and then put it in, you
(39:58):
know, red, orange, green.
So it's very simple, you know,dopamine supporting stuff, and
then build that into your weeklymeeting.
And if you don't have a weeklymeeting, then we teach you how
to have that so that you havethat accountability, those
little dopamine fires thathappen more regularly to get you
to do stuff.
So it's about taking, yeah, thebest of the best when it comes
to AD, you know, businessknowledge and marketing
(40:19):
knowledge, but then combining itwith how your brain actually
works so that you don't just go,cool, I've learned a hundred
thousand dollars worth ofstrategies and I haven't
implemented a single one ofthem.
SPEAKER_01 (40:31):
I see.
Okay.
Um so can you when you meetsomebody can you figure out if
they have ADHD?
Like, do you notice things withpeople?
SPEAKER_04 (40:48):
I mean, I think you do pick up things when you meet
somebody.
I mean, one of the big things isthat we're on the same
wavelength.
And if you look at the research,that kind of backs it up.
You're like, oh, we we we thinkin a similar way, you know, that
because I have ADHD as well.
Um, do I diagnose people?
No.
Keep my mouth shut and and justlet them do what they do.
(41:10):
Um, but yeah, I think, I thinkyou start to pick things up.
SPEAKER_01 (41:13):
Hmm.
So what are what are some of thecommon common things that are
characteristic of somebody whohas that?
Like if you just meet someonefor the first time, is it can
you just tell that they're dothey move on conversationally?
Can they not stay focused on aon a point?
Or is it they move around orthey're constantly looking over
(41:34):
or they're they can't stayfocused?
SPEAKER_04 (41:37):
Depends on the kind of it depends on the kind of
ADHD they have.
I would say that one of thethings might be that they um
they tend to jump around interms of conversation.
So we could be talking aboutthis, and then we could be
talking about that, and youknow, you know, this sort of
ABCF kind of way of talking, um,which I do as well.
And so it's it's it's a greatway to have a conversation to
(41:57):
me.
SPEAKER_01 (41:57):
What is that?
SPEAKER_04 (41:58):
Just the idea of like, you know, if you think
about going down a path, youknow, this happened and then
this happened and then thishappened.
And so for some people, it'slike they're going down, they're
telling you the story.
If you're ADHD, you know, thisis a generalization, not
everyone will do this, but youcould be like, okay, well, I
went out and this happened.
And actually that reminds me ofthis other thing that happened,
(42:20):
which reminds me of this idea Ihad for a new business, and now
we're talking about differentthings.
unknown (42:25):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (42:26):
I've I've I've been privy to some of those
exchanges.
Yeah.
And you're like, what are youtalking about?
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (42:32):
Exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (42:33):
Yeah.
That's interesting.
Um, so when you I think youmight have said this earlier,
but when you said it depends onwhat type of ADHD, what are the
types?
Are are there ever like sopeople come with you and they
say I am XYZ AD ADHD?
Is there designations?
Like, what are the differenttypes?
SPEAKER_04 (42:50):
Yeah, so there's three different types.
You can have primarilyinattentive, primarily
hyperactive, or combined type.
SPEAKER_01 (42:57):
Inattentive.
Okay.
SPEAKER_04 (42:59):
Yep.
SPEAKER_01 (43:00):
How does that manifest itself?
SPEAKER_04 (43:03):
That's the ADD.
So you asked me that at thetime.
SPEAKER_01 (43:07):
Okay, so that's the A D D.
Gotcha, gotcha.
Okay.
And then you have the A D H D,which is the hyperactive.
Correct?
SPEAKER_04 (43:17):
Uh yes.
Yeah.
Well, yeah, primarilyhyperactive, and then you've got
combined.
SPEAKER_01 (43:22):
Active, okay.
And then the combined.
I say, okay.
Oh, gotcha.
Okay.
Um, so the combined is reallylike if we think about people on
the job side or people runningthe construction business, like
the combined it can be a bit ofa debilitating thing to have.
SPEAKER_04 (43:35):
Yeah.
Well, I have combined type.
So I I wouldn't say it'sdehabilitating, it just means
you're kind of a little bit ofeverything.
SPEAKER_01 (43:44):
Okay.
All right.
Um well, this is cool.
So what um what advice do youhave for people if they're
running their business orthey're on the job site and
they're like, ah god, I'm justkind of not I'm not connecting,
or I feel like I'm lettingpeople down, or um, I'm letting
my staff down, or whatever thatis.
(44:05):
Like what what are some of thewhat's some advice you have for
people?
SPEAKER_04 (44:10):
The number one thing I'd say is what you I what I
don't think you should do isjust beat yourself up and say,
you know, I'm a problem, youknow, I just need to try harder.
Uh, because you probably aretrying pretty hard, you know.
Most people are trying prettyhard at that point when they're
having those conversations.
It's usually about, okay, whatdo I need to change about how
(44:32):
these things are happening andhow these systems are running to
make it fit better for me?
And that's the big shift.
A lot of times people will justsay, I'm just gonna wake up and
I'm just gonna hit that wallharder.
But eventually, yeah, wall willbreak you.
SPEAKER_01 (44:49):
Yes, I hear you.
Well, this has been pretty cool.
You know, I've I've learned alot through this.
Um yeah, so how do people get intouch with you on LinkedIn or on
your website?
So you've got unconventionalorganization.com, is that right?
SPEAKER_04 (45:05):
Yeah, you can find me at unconventional
organization.com.
You can listen to our podcast,the ADHD Skills Lab, if you want
to listen to you know,entrepreneurs and and you know,
some of the ADHD research.
Um, or you can find me atunconventional organization on
Instagram, and you can justmessage me, James, if you want
the focus chatbot to help youget started.
SPEAKER_01 (45:24):
That is pretty cool.
Well, Sky, that has beenawesome.
Um thank you very much.
I appreciate it.
It's been really nice meetingyou and uh good luck with
everything that you're doing.
Uh yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (45:34):
No worries.
That was awesome.
Thanks for having me.
Okay, cool.
SPEAKER_01 (45:43):
Well, that does it for another episode of this
late.
Thank you for listening.
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