May 3, 2025 • 53 mins
Future of Food Tourism: 4 Bold Scenarios
Welcome to The Social Hotelier Show with Sam-Erik Ruttmann! In this episode, we explore the ¨future of food tourism¨ with renowned futurist Dr. Ian Yeoman. From lab-grown delicacies to regenerative dining experiences and dystopian luxury, we dive into four bold scenarios that redefine how we eat, travel, and experience culture.
👨🍳 What does the future hold for chefs and hoteliers?
🌱 Can regenerative cuisine become the new luxury?
🚀 Are you ready to dine in Dr. Spock’s restaurant or sip wine from the last wine bottle on Earth?
🙏🏻Proud to share that The Social Hotelier, hosted by Sam-Erik Ruttmann, has been named one of the Top 20 Hotel Podcasts of 2025 — a recognition of our commitment to insightful conversations in global hospitality.
https://podcast.feedspot.com/hotel_podcasts/
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
You are listening to the Social Hotelier Show,
a podcast that inspires hoteliers to create meaningful
and memorable experiences
for their customers
in pursuit of their passion.
We share our views and experiences relating to
hospitality,
technological trends, and also relating to humanity.
Here is your host, Sam Eric Rutman.
(00:25):
Welcome to the Social Hotelier Show. I'm your
host, Sam Eric Rutman, coming to you from
Helsinki.
Today's episode takes us on a journey into
the future of food,
where innovation,
identity, and even survival intersects.
Let's face it. Our love for food runs
deep. It is not just about nourishment. It's
about flavor, memory, and connection.
(00:47):
People travel thousands of miles just to try
a noodle in Tokyo and an authentic kimchi
in Kwanju,
a taco in Mexico City, or a rustic
wine in Tuscany.
In fact, this has actually been
a huge motivation for me why I start
to work in the hospitality industry because I
love food.
We crave new tastes, unfamiliar ingredients,
(01:09):
and the stories that come with them.
Food inspires us to venture behind the familiar
in many ways. It defines how we experience
the world.
But what happens when climate change,
science, and shifting values
radically change
how and what we eat.
What does that mean for chefs, hoteliers, and
destinations
(01:30):
that throw on authenticity?
My guest today is doctor Ian Yeoman,
professor of disruption, innovation, and new phenomena in
hospitality and tourism
at the hotel management school, Louvre,
a renowned futurist
and author of the future of futurism.
In his news edition, Ian doesn't just describe
trends. He introduces
(01:51):
four bold even unsettling scenarios
that challenge our assumption about the food we
serve, the guest we welcome, and the culture
we preserve. So get ready for a rich
and provocative
conversation
that will make you rethink the role of
food in our future. Ian, welcome to the
show.
Good afternoon. Good afternoon. Good afternoon, Sam. I'm
(02:12):
so delighted that we after a time we
met in in Zagreb that we have you
here as my guest because I was so
fascinated
about your talk at that time, and I
realized that you have you have written several
books. And,
when you,
suggested to me certain topics, I I
I caught up with it. The food was
the first thing I I was thinking about
because it has to do with how I
(02:34):
started my time in in the hospitality industry
but it's really exciting that we're that you're
taking
very fresh and maybe
a radically different view on on things and
looking in in the future
so how
how how what will motivate you to revisit
your 02/2014
book and create these radically different futures for
(02:54):
the food for tourism?
Several things. I think, first of all, like
you, I'm interested in food
because, you know, as a professor in the
hospitality and tourism industry,
researching food, beer, and wine, why not? It's
an excellent subject. You get to consume it
and taste it. So
it it's part of life and part of
what I enjoy and where it's going.
(03:20):
And I've been doing future studies now for
over
thirty years, and
I delve into different topics, you know, from
hotels to work to technology.
But food's
very close to my heart of where it
is for for various reasons.
So I did a book back in 2014,
'20 '15 about the future of food,
(03:41):
and it's a collection of opinions about what
what people thought on the food
direction.
And when we were writing that book, people
said few very much the future they want.
That's the question they want, and it was
very much an extension
of where we are now and going forward.
So a lot of the collections and essays
(04:02):
were about
place.
You know, what does it mean to be
French and therefore how does it extend into
our cuisine?
You know, there was a presumption food wouldn't
change. You know, the pizza in Italy would
still be the same in fifty years. Malta
would still be about
would still be about rabbits and local dishes.
(04:25):
The Netherlands would still be about bitten balls
and cheese.
But over the and that was a very
linear approach. Nothing would change.
And as a futurist,
one of the fundamental rules of future studies
is
if you think it's not going to happen
(04:46):
or you think the idea is ridiculous,
it probably will come happen at at some
point in the future.
And, also,
when you're doing future studies and scenario planning
in particular,
you've gotta think you can't predict one future
because I don't know what the exact future
would be.
And you've gotta talk about alternative ideas and
(05:07):
different perspectives.
Some are very linear. The some things don't
change.
Some things are alternative opinion,
but other things are based on science fiction
and transformation.
But what got me meant
got me make got me thinking was,
basically, over the last three or four years,
(05:28):
sustainability and climate change has come to the
forefront of the debate.
And I was thinking
the whole debate is about we're not going
to be at 1.5 degrees. We're gonna be
at 2.5, three degrees in the future.
Therefore,
that has fundamental
that has fundamental implications
on
(05:49):
what the land would look like in the
terms of farming. Would we still be growing
these crops?
And if farming changes,
whether it's new crops or,
less crops or
new forms
of wine or beer, etcetera, it means what
we eat changes.
(06:12):
And that therefore changes the characteristics of place,
and what we are.
And what I wanted to do the second
edition of the book, I I really need
needed to think,
and I needed to take that idea forward.
Because if climate change is two and a
half to three degrees,
it's fundamentally different.
(06:32):
So I was looking at the IPPC
scenarios and saying, okay, if these scenarios occur,
what does it mean for farming and and
food systems and and production and distribution, etcetera,
etcetera, and food security?
Therefore,
create a set of scenarios
that would take you out of the box,
(06:52):
some scenarios in the box and some scenarios
out of the box.
So create scenarios that you think would
be challenging,
both utopian and dystopian, but get people to
think differently.
Because if we don't think differently
or understanding what is coming next,
(07:12):
we become very complacent
about what we've got,
and we need
to future proof the future.
And as a researcher,
that's what I do.
And as he said earlier, I have the
job title of
disruption,
innovation, and new phenomena.
Disruption is the the change that's going to
(07:33):
have
that's transformational and science fiction y
and is abrupt.
Innovation is how businesses adapt to that model
of the future.
And new phenomena are the new products and
experiences that emerge from all of this change.
So that was the challenge from my dean
here at the hotel school. Think differently.
(07:54):
Push the box out,
because you you're a professor, so you're a
global thought leader in what you do.
So
lead from the front
and create something differently. So that's what we
did. We created a set of scenarios,
and we went out to experts and asked
them to respond to those scenarios differently.
And,
(08:14):
you know, the book is 19 chapters,
and
12 of those chapters are about design challenges.
You know, if this is the future and
if this is the future,
what's the product or the experience
for this environment, this scenario? So that's the
story of the book. It's,
(08:35):
what could happen, what's possible.
And it's
a bit of fun as well Yeah.
And and creativity because
I need to get students, industry,
and researchers to
get to the future. And the scenarios created
that. So that's what the motivation was. That's
what the purpose of the book was, and
(08:55):
that's what we ended up in the terms
of the the final product. Okay. So,
with that great introduction and now understanding, perhaps
we can start with the
first,
first scenario that you
you started with. I think it's, doctor Spoke's
restaurant.
Yeah. Doctor Spoke's restaurant,
(09:16):
you can imagine where the idea came from.
You know? It's it if you talk about
science fiction in my generation, you've got to
think of doctors you've got to think of
Spock in Star Trek. Yeah. So imagine if
he had a restaurant,
and what that restaurant was would be like.
Because we live in a world where
(09:38):
there's actually a lot of science in food,
in food tourism, in cuisine. I just think
of Heston Blumenthal,
Nivelle Cuisine,
gastronome experiences, and they're all science.
And they're all the chef is actually the
scientist in the laboratory.
It's not cooking. It it's it's it's a
laboratory production.
(09:59):
So in doctor Spock's restaurant,
we went very hedonistic.
We went very sciency.
And it was all about the opening of
a new restaurant in Tokyo, which is a
very futuristic city.
And the question fundamentally is the the food
system has collapsed,
and,
(10:19):
it's a it's a it's a toxic environment.
But we're very innovative in what we do
in overcoming that. So basically, we ask the
question, imagine a world where more food is
grown in a laboratory
rather than in the field.
So it completely
changes
how we think about food.
(10:41):
But as you said, the chef is a
scientist,
and
it's it's taking
laboratory food in the
the the innovations we see in science
and innovations in agriculture
and just taking them a bit further
to to say that. So it brings challenges,
and it brings it brings opportunities
(11:01):
in the terms of of what it's all
about.
Yeah. I mean,
of course, now all the chefs that are
listening in here, they are getting a little
bit, start to think about what how is
their future. But
if the chef becomes a scientist
or how
how will the soul of cooking disappear altogether
if they are scientists and not
(11:23):
emotionally inspiring chefs? What is your thoughts on
this?
No. They don't.
Because, as we said, there's already a lot
of science in the kitchen. Yeah.
And production techniques have evolved and changed over
time.
There's a lot more preciseness
in how we cook. And the classical example
over the last three or four years is
(11:46):
the evolution of the sous vide machine,
that that water bath, that slow cooking.
It produces a different taste and a different
texture.
And some people say it's a lot better
because it's slow cooking.
It's,
it's a different way to taste.
It's a lot more nutritional.
(12:08):
So it's a different concept of of what
we do.
And if you look at how the oven's
changed over the last thirty years, there's that
evolution
in the terms of technology and science of
of how we do.
And I think
what's happening in the kitchen,
the chef's role is is evolving and chain
and changing.
(12:28):
And one of the roles of a chef
is there's a role there as a chef,
as a as a scientist
in the terms of that construction.
Because
as a scientist, they're also a a curator.
They're an inventor.
They're they're doing novelty and stuff like that.
But also science is good in the terms
(12:49):
of if you understand the science and what
you're doing, there's the science
of of food in the production system and
the science of the food.
The chef is actually also a nutritionist.
They we're all concerned about diet and what
we eat and traceability,
but
the the chef is a scientist
(13:10):
wears that hat in the terms of nutrition.
They're able to say to the consumer,
you know, this is what's in the food.
This is the nutritional diet of where we
go
and what we do. So
and the chef is also,
it's a
they are
(13:32):
they are an experienced
creator. Yes. Yes.
They
are create right at the heart of innovation
societies is what food does, and the chef
wears that hat and wears that robe.
So to create that new novel experience
where food becomes a lot more immersive and
discussion,
(13:53):
it becomes very fashionable.
Mhmm.
And it's it's a piece of art as
well Yeah. Which you you see with your
eyes,
but you taste it's the art of the
taste as well. You know, I talk about
Heston Blumenthal. You know, if he puts a
if there's a carrot in front of you,
but it's actually a chocolate cake.
It's a carrot
(14:14):
that looks like a carrot. Yes. But when
you taste, it's actually a chocolate cake when
you taste it. So that's, you know, how
we confuse people,
and the consumers are looking for
difference, excitement,
and they're willing to taste and sample new
things.
So science brings you that preciseness.
So it's nothing to be scared scared about.
(14:36):
It's part of the evolution of be of
being the chef.
And also within that, we know we toss
in the things which were around us.
You know, we talk about consumers that are
the adventurous foodie
who tastes the insects,
or eats them. There's our famous restaurant in
Copenhagen or Denmark where you eat the raw
(14:57):
insects with with the food.
But we're also bringing the issues around the
role of science in the development of food
in the terms of you can talk about
cell based food or,
in vitro based food. We can talk about
the creation of
artificial meat. We can talk about the creation
(15:17):
of artificial fish as well in in terms
of fish farms.
So
everything we've got in there is is the
role of science.
And it's not to scare you, but it's
to bring the debate to the forefront
in the terms of what it is and
what it what it is. Because we live
in a society which is actually
(15:39):
a lot more educated. You know, nineteen sixties,
'4 percent of the population
in Europe went to university, whereas today, 40
to 45%
of school leavers go to university. So the
more educated they understand science, they're more aware,
they travel the world.
So they're more sophisticated,
(15:59):
in the terms of things. But,
you know, tourism, hospitality is part of the
experience economy,
and science drives
change and novelty.
And the ultimate experience to me is food
Yeah. Because it uses all senses
rather than just, like, tourism. Just
you see something and gazing,
(16:20):
where food is you consume it. Yep.
So
it's it's part of the advancement of food
and cuisine. Okay. Now
some people may say, well, could science based
cuisine democratize gourmet dining
or deepen culinary inequality?
Well, I think,
democratization,
(16:40):
that's a that's an interesting question.
There's several answers to that in different perspectives.
If you look at the advancement of luxury,
for example,
luxury has advanced in society because it's all
about the democratization.
We've got more middle classes in the world.
And as you get increased in middle classes,
(17:03):
we experience different things. And right at the
heart of the democratization
of luxury
has been food and cuisine
in the terms of accessibility.
We can afford to
eat or treat ourselves in a Michelin starred
restaurant. May not go there every day,
but we're on holiday.
(17:24):
It's a celebration.
So
all of that food becomes
a point of
democratization.
And you've also got to remember,
how we access a Michelin star restaurant,
we we do it at different points. So,
the lunch menu is different. The the price
(17:45):
for the lunch menu
is usually different from the price of the
dinner menu.
There's always a special on somewhere.
So restaurant prices and Michelin starred restaurants
price
at different times
in the terms of exclusivity.
But even if you look at the the
history and the evolution of Michelin starred restaurants,
(18:08):
it's now about good cuisine.
So a Michelin starred
restaurant can actually be a street vendor in
Singapore
to,
a three star Michelin restaurant in Oslo. That's
right. Yes. But they're just different.
What the script is for a Michelin star
(18:29):
restaurant is changing. Mhmm.
So there's a degree of democratization
on one hand.
But on the other hand, if you look
at,
even saw the Royal Mayfair scenario, which is
more
about exclusivity,
you you know, luxuries changed in the terms
of,
(18:52):
when you luxury is no longer luxury
if it's accessible to the to the to
the to the vast majority of us.
So we have to create
different types of experiences
within the experience economy,
that go beyond exclusivity.
And that's probably around the scenarios of
(19:15):
if you look at Le Natural
and if you look at,
Roots,
where craft and authenticity
become
the
story of
luxury. Yep. A a a a different aspect.
So, you know, some of the scenarios overlap
Yep. And inter intertwine with each other. So
(19:37):
So perhaps we can
move over to the second
scenario, La Naturale food trail
Mhmm. Where you've,
scenario shifts towards sustainability and wellness.
So may perhaps you can talk about this
and then because somehow
something I can relate to being living in
the Nordics.
Yeah. Well,
(19:58):
I I apologize. This is where we need
it. Did you say the root scenario oil
and natural? Natural.
Well, I think if you look at natural,
it was a provocative question.
As
as society and climate change, where food becomes
more scarce,
one of the things
that scenario responds to is the advancement of
(20:19):
science.
And in that scenario,
the advancement of science is about mass production,
and it's where a a lot of the
food tastes the same.
So in your everyday discourse of what you're
buying,
it's the corporation
that is controlling the food chain,
and everything seems the same. So it's a
(20:41):
world of McDonald's
and, you know, a McDonald's or a Burger
King is the same everywhere.
So food has become very,
homo homo homo homo homo homo homo homo
homo homo homo homo homo homo homo homo
homo homo homo homo homo homo homo homo
homo hom
(21:02):
how do you create something that's very different
in a different world? How do you create
something
that's about
a a paradise?
How do you create
something
that's your vision? I mean, it's like the
Spice Girls,
and they have a song called, what do
you really, really, really, really want?
(21:23):
And that's what that is about. Yeah. Because
the thing about this scenario is,
it's a scenario
where everybody can buy into it. Because the
thing about food from a political perspective
is
all of the stake stakeholders,
whether you're the farmer
(21:44):
to
the butcher
to
the restaurant
or the destination.
Food is very important because food is about
the place you are.
So here we have a scenario where we're
using food
to drive
(22:06):
regenerative tourism, a regenerative approach where we we're
focusing on
looking at food as as well-being and health,
to create
something that we want and we we dream
about. So it's about
a journey
to create something. Yeah. And it's about creating
(22:27):
a better world. So that's what that scenario
is all about. Le Natural Food Trail
in Tuscany
and slaw food movement,
a different society, what we dream about, and
what we want. Yeah. So could this regenerative
fooders have become the new status symbol in
luxury travel?
Yeah. It does. And it's already
(22:48):
very fluid concept
Yeah. In in the terms of what we
got. So it's a it's a concept of
Michelin starred restaurant and materialism
and high end.
But also to many people,
luxury is also about
time and isolation,
switching off from a fast busy life.
(23:08):
And also food is it's also about
creating something new,
education.
I I've learned something.
So
so, for example, if we look at those
in the Nordic countries,
luxury to people in the Nordic country
is about isolation and time.
Whereas if you if you're from China or
(23:29):
India, it's more materialistic.
So what the concept is and how you
escape to it is very important.
So for example, one of the examples we
talk about
in is,
one one is not is
is is the Faroe Islands.
Faroe Islands are tiny it's a tiny island
(23:52):
in the terms of collection.
It's not going to be mass tourism.
It's got a sense of uniqueness,
and it's about
taking a regenerative hospitality
perspective
and putting people into the home
of people from the Faroe Islands
and
getting them to understand what the cuisine is
(24:14):
and living the experience
that's rustic,
that's well-being,
and it's small scale and slow scale and
an immersive experience.
So that's luxury. It's a very basic experience,
but it's also expensive and high end because
of the degree of rarity Yes. And the
limited capacity.
(24:36):
So will the chef now have a wellness
responsibility
beyond taste and presentation?
Yeah. They do. They they do. And,
such that the chef has a multiple role
in society today. Yeah.
The chef is at the forefront
of what food is.
You've got the chef
who's passionate about what is food and where
(24:57):
it comes from. You've got the chef who's
an food activist.
They're the ones that are championing
in creating the conversation
about what food is
and where it goes.
You've got the chef as the innovator.
You've got the chef as the historian,
who is the one that's working with historical
(25:17):
ingredients from the destination
and creating new dishes.
You've got the chef, who's the ambassador
for cult
for the living culture,
the cultural identity of a place, and the
food that they create.
So the chef has a
the chef or head chef has a very
(25:38):
broad
understanding of cuisine and they wear multiple hats
going forward
in the terms of what they do. So
it's more than the kitchen. Yes. It's the
story. It's the ambassador role. It's the historical
role. It's the there's a whole range of
different things there. Yeah. I remember
being in, in Alsace,
(25:59):
in, in France where,
we stayed in a very nice hotel
and,
the chef was when they presented the menu,
they're clearly made us understand
that
everything which is on the menu with all
the, the, the produce and ingredients
is within the three kilometer radius. So, yeah,
so
(26:20):
if it and they're relying on the season
seasonality. So you don't expect to see,
fresh squeezed orange juice there in the morning,
but you have some berries.
Yep. Something like that. And I I was
fascinated about this idea, and
I love orange juice. So I thought, well,
if I have to go for orange juice,
then I better go to Sicily or or
(26:40):
or Spain or Italy. But I was really
impressed about their commitment to to that,
responsibility about this idea, that they only
buy from or get from the local the
local community. So that's really a regenerative
way of handling this. So I was really
impressed about it.
Yeah. And and that's the thing about food
(27:01):
to me. One of the things about food,
it's something we've all got an opinion about,
and it represents who we are in our
identity.
And
we need to go beyond
our traditional perceptions
of what the cuisine industry is.
And you think about a career in
in the restaurant industry, it's more than the
(27:24):
restaurant. Yes.
And it's it's
in the pivotal role of the chef and
the pivotal role of the chef of the
future.
Yeah.
So let's move over then to
the Royal Mayfair. The little bit darker vision,
I feel, and I would Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yes and no.
Royal Mayfair is a to some, it's a
(27:46):
dystopian scenario. Yeah. But luxury is about exclusivity.
Yeah.
And
it's about
can you afford to go there in the
terms of the so this is a world
to me
and this star story was actually,
motivation by a film called Soil and Green
(28:07):
Yes. With with Charlton Heston. Soil and Green
are people.
Yeah. Soil and Green are people, and that
type of thing. But if you were rich
in society, you could afford real food. Yeah.
And you lived in a gated commodities,
whereas the masses
just had Soylent Green, which was a a
food tablet. Yeah. So we just extended that
(28:28):
and looked at that story and recreated it,
looking at a dystopian
world where there's the haves and the have
nots,
exclusive restaurants in the Royal May Fourth Square
Mile of London.
You know, the British government is running out
of money. The royal family is in poverty,
so they have to, you know, you
(28:51):
you can dine with the with the king
and queen of England.
Buckingham Palace is,
sponsored by Disneyland,
and, you know, the they've got a McDonald's
at at at at Hollywood Palace.
So so it's all about revenue and generosity
and stuff like that. It's not narcissism,
(29:14):
hedonistic.
You know, I've got money, so I'm going
I've got money, so I'm going to enjoy
it. Whereas you, the common
people, you're my servants.
You can,
you can,
serve me. I may give you a few
(29:34):
crumbs once in a while and experience that
in the terms of that. But it's also
a lot about innovation Yeah. And about driving
that. Because one of the things I've learned
is
exclusivity is the three star Michelin starred restaurant.
The Michelin I'll go back to the Michelin.
But it's also about what the the opposite
side of that, what Michelin starred restaurants do
(29:56):
for a destination.
Exclusive restaurants are the pioneers,
the the early adopters of trends.
They set the scene for
the mass of the restaurant industry, and they
follow.
They like the fashion show of Paris and
Milan.
And these are what Michelin star restaurants do.
(30:16):
We look to them for the latest trends.
So Royal Mailford is about exclusivity
and economic high value
into that market,
but it's it's
and there's dystopian parts to it, but there's
also parts to it that we want and
will drive change
of where the experience economy is going.
(30:38):
Because also the restaurant industry is all about
innovation.
It's also about failure and high turnover.
But
if you create more economic well-being and economic
value
from this this process,
it does have a spin down effect
in the terms of what of what you've
got.
(30:59):
So
exclusivity in in Michelin starred restaurants
create value at the top that filter down
to other communities,
in the terms of do doing things. Yeah.
Interesting. Now
I'm just think catching on this this fine
dining,
is exclusive, to the elite in this world
(31:20):
may fare. So is food tour food tourism
still cultural, or is it the power display
in in this I think there's a bit
of both. Yeah.
The definite in this in the Royal Mayfair
restaurant, there is a power display Yeah. Of
where power where power is.
And we and we we we show that
off.
(31:40):
So there's definitely that end, but that's the
reality
of
that's the reality of
tourism and hospitality.
It's stores that can afford it and those
that can't afford it and those that are
in the middle somewhere.
So there's something about
power
and how
power creates
experiences, and we can't and that's how you
(32:02):
deal with it and how you manage it.
Yeah.
So then your final scenario, roots, is perhaps
most the most
grounded, focusing on authenticity, heritage, and culinary identity.
So this is where food Yeah. I apologize.
You you finished the question. Yeah. It resonates
with today's traveler seeking local, honest food. So
please tell me how how you approached to
(32:23):
to the the to roots and, what that
talks about more in detail. Well, roots was
it's it's about the place in the history.
Yeah.
There's also a degree about when we did
the book, we we we did talk to
climate change scientists and farmers and those that
are involved in food production.
And one of the things they did say
was,
(32:45):
we're very adaptable.
Food changes. You know, we invented the fertilizer.
Food, we grow crops, for example.
There's new forms of wheat there that adapt
to climate change.
We have new forms of rice, new forms
of noodles
that are
all being researched
(33:06):
and will come through.
So
to a certain extent, there's a degree of
scaremongering
in some of the scenarios you've written.
But on the other hand,
food is adaptable.
So we can create something
which
is,
still about place, and we don't lose that
(33:28):
place.
So that's about
that heterogeneous identity
and about preserving history.
Because, again, it goes back to the role
of the chef. He's a cultural ambassador.
That chef is still a person that's interested
in history.
You know, I was listening so this is
a scenario about,
(33:51):
Koi Samui Koi Samui in Thailand, One of
the islands,
and about
how what Thailand is doing in terms
of the food of Thailand because Thailand as
a destination has realized it's not just about
the beach and sun and parties.
There's a strong emphasis on food now to
attract the tourist.
And if you're living in this world where
(34:12):
food is mass production,
you need something
that's
what's local and how do you preserve it.
Because from a climate change perspective, there's going
to be winners and losers.
Those that are in the middle of the
Equator,
where heat is in really intense,
they have
(34:33):
prop they have problems. That's that's the the
critical uncertainties.
But there are other places where climate changes
of benefits or the impact of climate change
is not as great. There's still gonna be
changes to water and food and what we
do.
So
you get clusters of goodness.
And this is about Kuisimoi,
focusing on place,
(34:53):
focusing on history, and preserving that. Very good.
And keeping it as heterogeneous identity,
but where history's at the forefront.
So food's about being a cultural ambassador.
And it's also very community orientated,
where everybody's involved and everybody has a responsibility
(35:14):
for food and that type of thing. Yeah.
I I lived a part of my career
in Thailand, so I'm very familiar with this
approach. And one of the,
very popular
programs that we created was,
culinary classes where we invited the Mhmm. One
of the depending on the restaurant or the
Thai chef to give a cooking class, how
(35:35):
to make sum tam or,
and all the authenticity.
But they all I always made
feel at one time, and actually, when I
look back. So I was wondering, is the
pursuit of authentic cuisine a celebration or a
curated illusion for tourists?
It's both. Yeah. It's it's both in the
terms of that
because one answer to the question is authenticity
(35:57):
adapts and changes.
You know, for example, Walt Disney in Disneyland
is
an authentic experience.
It has a history.
Las Vegas has a history.
So it's been curated and evolved, but when
you but people think it is an authentic
experience, and they wouldn't want it to be
anything else.
And that's the one thing about food.
(36:19):
It does not stay stuck in the past.
Food is a is a is about fusion.
It blends. It changes,
of where we go and how we adapt
it.
It adapts to marketplaces. So,
you know you know, food's about mobility,
and, you know, many of the restaurants of
(36:41):
the world
are are managed or owned
or SMEs, small
medium operators, independent entrepreneurs.
So where you take migrants, say, for example,
coming from India,
they're the ones that open the Indian restaurants,
and that's what we do, eat in The
UK. They're not food of The UK. It's
a curry. Yeah. It it's a food of
(37:01):
fusion of development.
And if you look at places like the
West Midlands or the city to Bir
Birmingham, that city's cuisine is identified as the
Balti.
It's the the immigrants that have come from
India,
settled in the West Midlands, and create adapted
to a food dish
(37:21):
of that of of that region.
So food
adapts and changes,
but it still has that authenticity.
I was watching a BBC TV. There's a
there's a series at the moment
on the BBC
called,
glow it's about global food.
(37:42):
And we were looking at the food of
Poland
and the humble dumpling.
And one of the roles of the chef
has
been twofold.
What are the historical ingredients
and fillings you associate with the Polish dumpling?
And presenting
that food
to the consumer,
(38:03):
but also taking the humble dumpling
and being innovative with new flavors and new
concepts and presenting it different ways.
So it's still right the dumpling in Poland
is still at the heart of cuisine
of what it is,
and it's authentic,
but it's also adapted.
So it's staged, but it's also it's also
(38:25):
rustic.
But that's the great thing about food. It
has diversity.
Yeah. But
what it's all about is good food
cooked the right way, presented the right way
in a very professional manner. And that's what
cuisine and food tourism is all about. Yeah.
Fascinating all these different,
(38:47):
scenarios. So if we were more into the
design challenges,
each scenario raises
design
design challenges,
what new experience could emerge and so on.
Maybe you can, think of speak about,
how how this might change, how we build
hotels, and,
(39:07):
and what are the destinations for these possible
futures?
Well, I've I've talked about many of the
design challenges and experiences
you you've got there. And each scenario presented
each scenario shaped by
fifteen, sixteen trends
that create that story of of that environment.
And the design challenges were about
(39:28):
taking those some of the trends that were
in there
and
redesigning redesigning
things. So,
in one of the scenarios,
I can there's a number of scenarios we
can talk about. But one of the scenarios
was about,
the last wine club.
(39:49):
We're living in a world where
climate change has been very significant.
You're talking about climate change at four to
five to five degrees,
whereas, for example,
destroyed
the wine industry in California.
So and and you haven't been able to
(40:09):
to do that. But science has responded
by creating synthetic wines.
And those synthetic wines are really good,
but they lack something.
But as you go further into the future,
our supplies of vintage wines
become rarer.
And this is the story
(40:30):
of the last bottle of wine
and the experience
of consuming that last bottle of wine and
what it's all about.
And that's about rarity,
exclusivity,
and high value,
and that drives
the experience economy. It drives,
(40:53):
top end restaurants
in in in in in wine wine bars.
And to a certain extent, we there's also
that debate about
visiting the last resort or the seeing the
glazes before they melt. So this is just
that classical example.
And how much would you pay
for that last,
that last experience in the terms of what
(41:14):
you do?
Because it's it's quite chilly
of what it's all about, exclusivity
top end in the terms of prices.
But luxury is about exclusivity in doing that.
So that's one example
of
of do doing that. So
it's way to we talk about Royal Mayfair
(41:34):
and the chapter by,
Susan Harkinson from
AUT University in New Zealand.
And she talks she talks about
the royal family selling itself out.
They've they've
sold their soul
in the terms of McDonald's
(41:56):
and,
Burger King and Starbucks and creating that to
create revenue.
They talk about Royal Mayfair
in the terms of we need to create
revenue because we're in a time of of
economic recession and how industries
and how industries respond
with fine dining experiences,
(42:17):
exclusive experiences,
and and looking and looking at novelty.
Yeah. In the terms
of what they are.
We also talk about some of the design
challenges about authenticity.
So if you talk about
if we talk
about if we so editing again. So if
(42:39):
we talk about
I've lost
it.
So if we talk about,
you know, chapter nine in roots,
it's a case study of some of the
issues around
(43:00):
the noodles of Japan
and the the traditional noodle and because of
the price of wheat.
The price of wheat is getting very expensive.
We're also
in Japan. It's also about Japan
(43:22):
and aging population,
so nobody wants to train as a noodle
chef.
So those traditions
about
how do you hand down experiences,
you know, how you make something
how you make something
is tacit knowledge. You've got to learn to
be a noodle chef on the job to
(43:43):
make the most the best noodles in the
world. And how how do you create that
and what do you do
in the terms of that? So the the
loss of the noodle in Japan as a
consequence in the terms of that high in
the terms of that high end authentic experiences
in the terms of doing that. Yeah.
We've talked about,
(44:04):
we've talked about
home hospitality and the Faroe Islands and some
of the design challenges that we've got there
and how the islands can put
use cultural identity
and what the food is
to create a very immersive
local
experience that everybody can buy into.
(44:26):
In the terms of because regenerative hospitality
and regenerative food is about everybody
being involved
in the terms of in the terms of
doing things.
And and that's that's that becomes
extreme that becomes extremely
important.
Yep. So But on the other hand,
it is,
(44:48):
we talk about,
new restaurants. If you look at Doctor. Spock's
restaurant, we look at the present debate
about
cell based food,
because at the moment,
in vitro food
is only available to buy in Singapore.
(45:08):
You know, you can go there's one licensed
butcher.
There's one licensed restaurant
where you can go to get this
to get this type of food.
And there's also a fear of science
and change because we've had all of the
debates
about GM food,
and
we want something natural and that type of
(45:30):
thing. But we're we're creating the debate. It's
all about price and accessibility.
Where do you trade off price,
and overcoming your fear of science to to
eat to to eat that in the terms
of doing things?
So there's lots going on in the terms
of doing things. And we talk about here
(45:51):
in Lowooden.
We talked about the advancements of science in
in the Vadensea
area.
Because the food here in Loire and the
northern provinces of The Netherlands
is very earthy and very salty.
So how do you take the science of
salt
and taste
(46:12):
to create new types of species in the
terms of new types of fish, new types
of seaweed?
How do you use the water in the
sea
to change flavors?
Because flavors is right at the heart of
science in what we do. So the purpose
of the design challenges
was to drive innovation
because
(46:34):
the restaurant industry, the wine the restaurant industry
is all about innovation.
It's a very
entrepreneurial,
adaptive,
fast paced industries
where you have diversity,
and it's also about
it's also about opportunity.
(46:55):
The restaurant industry, the food industry
never stands still. Yeah.
How should the hoteliers or chefs start to
future proofing today? Because I'm sure that the
chefs who are listening in here, some of
them are we're gonna wondering
where is the future now? So any tips
you can just give them to to calm
them down? Yeah. Well, I think let's look
(47:17):
at the role of the chef. There's actually
less there's a real big issue about chefs
at the moment. There's less of them. Yeah.
So I think
as a chef, the chef is not the
chef anymore.
Yeah. The chef is now an ambassador
and a food activist.
So the role of the chef changes is
you've got to be at the forefront
(47:38):
of representing the changing values in society.
You you are the new ambassadors.
You are the new climate change activists
in the terms of where you go. And
if you're doing that,
you become the center of the community.
You become the spokesperson
of change around climate change.
(48:00):
But the thing about food is not just
about the environment.
You embrace innovation,
new ideas,
new foods.
Your consumer and your you the person that
eats what you produce
wants novelty,
wants
wants that new experience,
(48:21):
So you embrace
innovation.
You
adapt
to new ideas of food service. You know,
we talked one of their
scenarios
talks about
talks about the
actually, the chef is replaced by a robot.
(48:43):
And we're at that stage where,
you know, does that mean the end of
the chef?
And a robot produces produces
the food, but that's just an extension
of
technology and science in the kitchen at the
moment.
But to write the program
or to write the algorithm
(49:05):
that drives the robot to do to cook
it, he's gonna it's it's gotta be the
human that creates the input or the lang
or the large language model
to to to drive all of that change.
And if you've got a chef shortage of
chefs in the future,
let the robotics develop that. Let the robotics
(49:27):
create economies of scale
in the finements
to to do that in the terms of
doing things.
So you're embracing AI. You're embracing embracing technology.
But
so you
you you become passionate about food.
You become the storyteller,
(49:49):
the ambassador,
the historian
for the place.
So you're wearing all of these multiple hats
in the terms of going forward.
So it enhances
the role
of the hotelier.
It enhances the role of the restaurateur.
It enhances the role of the chef going
forward because
you become
(50:11):
the icon
of change Yeah. And embrace. And so you've
got everything from history, authenticity
to the experience economy,
and you're passionate about that. Very good. I
think you have calmed down most of the
chefs now
listening.
So
out of those four scenarios
that we talked about,
which scenario do you person feel is more
(50:32):
likely or most worth working toward, or is
there one?
I think there's a degree of every all
when you do scenarios, there's a degree of
truth in all of them. Yeah. There's not
just one pathway
of what we do. We as a consumer
are interested in
breadth and novelty and experiences.
We want to test something new in the
(50:54):
terms of sampling, but we also want safety
and authenticity.
So there's such
you you need to ask the question, look
at all four scenarios
and what conclusions do you draw of what
you want. But also with the four scenarios,
it gives destinations or restaurants
or businesses the opportunity to say, this is
the pathway I want to follow,
(51:16):
and this is what I want to do.
Because the the restaurant industry is not just
about doing everything. It's about doing something.
So,
look at the four scenarios,
and you pick up what you feel comfortable
with in the terms of going forward
because they're all shared each scenario shared by
15 to 16
(51:37):
different trends
in the terms of what you go.
But the the key things I'm trying to
say is
innovation and sustainability
go together.
Yeah. But climate change climate change is going
to happen,
but we
to to deal with it,
we drive sustainability
in parallel with innovation, and they come together
(51:59):
to create something,
to preserve the past, or to create something
new.
Very good. Okay. There's a a clearly a
call to action to all the chefs and
hoteliers who are listening in. So,
which is the pathway you like you would
like to follow? So please write in the
comment, and I will summarize all the comments,
and I I'll pass them back to doctor
(52:20):
Ian Yeoman for as a appreciation of, that
he has been here today. So my final
question then is,
what is sort of,
how do people find find you? How can
they reach out if they want to connect
with you? And how can they find a
book that's coming out Okay. And so on?
(52:41):
Well, the book's available on Channelview's
website, which I'll send you the link channelview.com.
Okay.
And I'll also give you the discount code
for the book.
But if you just Google Ian Yorman,
I'm on LinkedIn, and I've got a strong
website presence on
on our university website at NHL Stenden.
(53:01):
So just Google the name.
I'm there.
And also I'll give you my email address
as well, and you can put that on
the
in into the video and all of the
contact details.
Very good. So in conclusion, Ian, I appreciate
you joining today today's episode, and thank you
very much for all your fantastic insight.
It's been a pleasure.
(53:22):
Thank you for tuning into the social hotelier.
If you enjoy this episode, please take a
moment to leave us a review. Give it
a thumbs up and don't forget to hit
that subscribe button to stay updated. We have
an incredible lineup of guests coming your way,
so stay tuned for more thought provoking conversations.
Until next time. Take care and keep exploring.
You are listening to the Social Hotelier Show,
a podcast that inspires hoteliers to create meaningful
and memorable experiences
for their customers
in pursuit of their passion.
We share our views and experiences relating to
hospitality,
technological trends, and also relating to humanity.
Here is your host, Sam Eric Rutman.
(00:25):
Welcome to the Social Hotelier Show. I'm your
host, Sam Eric Rutman, coming to you from
Helsinki.
Today's episode takes us on a journey into
the future of food,
where innovation,
identity, and even survival intersects.
Let's face it. Our love for food runs
deep. It is not just about nourishment. It's
about flavor, memory, and connection.
(00:47):
People travel thousands of miles just to try
a noodle in Tokyo and an authentic kimchi
in Kwanju,
a taco in Mexico City, or a rustic
wine in Tuscany.
In fact, this has actually been
a huge motivation for me why I start
to work in the hospitality industry because I
love food.
We crave new tastes, unfamiliar ingredients,
(01:09):
and the stories that come with them.
Food inspires us to venture behind the familiar
in many ways. It defines how we experience
the world.
But what happens when climate change,
science, and shifting values
radically change
how and what we eat.
What does that mean for chefs, hoteliers, and
destinations
(01:30):
that throw on authenticity?
My guest today is doctor Ian Yeoman,
professor of disruption, innovation, and new phenomena in
hospitality and tourism
at the hotel management school, Louvre,
a renowned futurist
and author of the future of futurism.
In his news edition, Ian doesn't just describe
trends. He introduces
(01:51):
four bold even unsettling scenarios
that challenge our assumption about the food we
serve, the guest we welcome, and the culture
we preserve. So get ready for a rich
and provocative
conversation
that will make you rethink the role of
food in our future. Ian, welcome to the
show.
Good afternoon. Good afternoon. Good afternoon, Sam. I'm
(02:12):
so delighted that we after a time we
met in in Zagreb that we have you
here as my guest because I was so
fascinated
about your talk at that time, and I
realized that you have you have written several
books. And,
when you,
suggested to me certain topics, I I
I caught up with it. The food was
the first thing I I was thinking about
because it has to do with how I
(02:34):
started my time in in the hospitality industry
but it's really exciting that we're that you're
taking
very fresh and maybe
a radically different view on on things and
looking in in the future
so how
how how what will motivate you to revisit
your 02/2014
book and create these radically different futures for
(02:54):
the food for tourism?
Several things. I think, first of all, like
you, I'm interested in food
because, you know, as a professor in the
hospitality and tourism industry,
researching food, beer, and wine, why not? It's
an excellent subject. You get to consume it
and taste it. So
it it's part of life and part of
what I enjoy and where it's going.
(03:20):
And I've been doing future studies now for
over
thirty years, and
I delve into different topics, you know, from
hotels to work to technology.
But food's
very close to my heart of where it
is for for various reasons.
So I did a book back in 2014,
'20 '15 about the future of food,
(03:41):
and it's a collection of opinions about what
what people thought on the food
direction.
And when we were writing that book, people
said few very much the future they want.
That's the question they want, and it was
very much an extension
of where we are now and going forward.
So a lot of the collections and essays
(04:02):
were about
place.
You know, what does it mean to be
French and therefore how does it extend into
our cuisine?
You know, there was a presumption food wouldn't
change. You know, the pizza in Italy would
still be the same in fifty years. Malta
would still be about
would still be about rabbits and local dishes.
(04:25):
The Netherlands would still be about bitten balls
and cheese.
But over the and that was a very
linear approach. Nothing would change.
And as a futurist,
one of the fundamental rules of future studies
is
if you think it's not going to happen
(04:46):
or you think the idea is ridiculous,
it probably will come happen at at some
point in the future.
And, also,
when you're doing future studies and scenario planning
in particular,
you've gotta think you can't predict one future
because I don't know what the exact future
would be.
And you've gotta talk about alternative ideas and
(05:07):
different perspectives.
Some are very linear. The some things don't
change.
Some things are alternative opinion,
but other things are based on science fiction
and transformation.
But what got me meant
got me make got me thinking was,
basically, over the last three or four years,
(05:28):
sustainability and climate change has come to the
forefront of the debate.
And I was thinking
the whole debate is about we're not going
to be at 1.5 degrees. We're gonna be
at 2.5, three degrees in the future.
Therefore,
that has fundamental
that has fundamental implications
on
(05:49):
what the land would look like in the
terms of farming. Would we still be growing
these crops?
And if farming changes,
whether it's new crops or,
less crops or
new forms
of wine or beer, etcetera, it means what
we eat changes.
(06:12):
And that therefore changes the characteristics of place,
and what we are.
And what I wanted to do the second
edition of the book, I I really need
needed to think,
and I needed to take that idea forward.
Because if climate change is two and a
half to three degrees,
it's fundamentally different.
(06:32):
So I was looking at the IPPC
scenarios and saying, okay, if these scenarios occur,
what does it mean for farming and and
food systems and and production and distribution, etcetera,
etcetera, and food security?
Therefore,
create a set of scenarios
that would take you out of the box,
(06:52):
some scenarios in the box and some scenarios
out of the box.
So create scenarios that you think would
be challenging,
both utopian and dystopian, but get people to
think differently.
Because if we don't think differently
or understanding what is coming next,
(07:12):
we become very complacent
about what we've got,
and we need
to future proof the future.
And as a researcher,
that's what I do.
And as he said earlier, I have the
job title of
disruption,
innovation, and new phenomena.
Disruption is the the change that's going to
(07:33):
have
that's transformational and science fiction y
and is abrupt.
Innovation is how businesses adapt to that model
of the future.
And new phenomena are the new products and
experiences that emerge from all of this change.
So that was the challenge from my dean
here at the hotel school. Think differently.
(07:54):
Push the box out,
because you you're a professor, so you're a
global thought leader in what you do.
So
lead from the front
and create something differently. So that's what we
did. We created a set of scenarios,
and we went out to experts and asked
them to respond to those scenarios differently.
And,
(08:14):
you know, the book is 19 chapters,
and
12 of those chapters are about design challenges.
You know, if this is the future and
if this is the future,
what's the product or the experience
for this environment, this scenario? So that's the
story of the book. It's,
(08:35):
what could happen, what's possible.
And it's
a bit of fun as well Yeah.
And and creativity because
I need to get students, industry,
and researchers to
get to the future. And the scenarios created
that. So that's what the motivation was. That's
what the purpose of the book was, and
(08:55):
that's what we ended up in the terms
of the the final product. Okay. So,
with that great introduction and now understanding, perhaps
we can start with the
first,
first scenario that you
you started with. I think it's, doctor Spoke's
restaurant.
Yeah. Doctor Spoke's restaurant,
(09:16):
you can imagine where the idea came from.
You know? It's it if you talk about
science fiction in my generation, you've got to
think of doctors you've got to think of
Spock in Star Trek. Yeah. So imagine if
he had a restaurant,
and what that restaurant was would be like.
Because we live in a world where
(09:38):
there's actually a lot of science in food,
in food tourism, in cuisine. I just think
of Heston Blumenthal,
Nivelle Cuisine,
gastronome experiences, and they're all science.
And they're all the chef is actually the
scientist in the laboratory.
It's not cooking. It it's it's it's a
laboratory production.
(09:59):
So in doctor Spock's restaurant,
we went very hedonistic.
We went very sciency.
And it was all about the opening of
a new restaurant in Tokyo, which is a
very futuristic city.
And the question fundamentally is the the food
system has collapsed,
and,
(10:19):
it's a it's a it's a toxic environment.
But we're very innovative in what we do
in overcoming that. So basically, we ask the
question, imagine a world where more food is
grown in a laboratory
rather than in the field.
So it completely
changes
how we think about food.
(10:41):
But as you said, the chef is a
scientist,
and
it's it's taking
laboratory food in the
the the innovations we see in science
and innovations in agriculture
and just taking them a bit further
to to say that. So it brings challenges,
and it brings it brings opportunities
(11:01):
in the terms of of what it's all
about.
Yeah. I mean,
of course, now all the chefs that are
listening in here, they are getting a little
bit, start to think about what how is
their future. But
if the chef becomes a scientist
or how
how will the soul of cooking disappear altogether
if they are scientists and not
(11:23):
emotionally inspiring chefs? What is your thoughts on
this?
No. They don't.
Because, as we said, there's already a lot
of science in the kitchen. Yeah.
And production techniques have evolved and changed over
time.
There's a lot more preciseness
in how we cook. And the classical example
over the last three or four years is
(11:46):
the evolution of the sous vide machine,
that that water bath, that slow cooking.
It produces a different taste and a different
texture.
And some people say it's a lot better
because it's slow cooking.
It's,
it's a different way to taste.
It's a lot more nutritional.
(12:08):
So it's a different concept of of what
we do.
And if you look at how the oven's
changed over the last thirty years, there's that
evolution
in the terms of technology and science of
of how we do.
And I think
what's happening in the kitchen,
the chef's role is is evolving and chain
and changing.
(12:28):
And one of the roles of a chef
is there's a role there as a chef,
as a as a scientist
in the terms of that construction.
Because
as a scientist, they're also a a curator.
They're an inventor.
They're they're doing novelty and stuff like that.
But also science is good in the terms
(12:49):
of if you understand the science and what
you're doing, there's the science
of of food in the production system and
the science of the food.
The chef is actually also a nutritionist.
They we're all concerned about diet and what
we eat and traceability,
but
the the chef is a scientist
(13:10):
wears that hat in the terms of nutrition.
They're able to say to the consumer,
you know, this is what's in the food.
This is the nutritional diet of where we
go
and what we do. So
and the chef is also,
it's a
they are
(13:32):
they are an experienced
creator. Yes. Yes.
They
are create right at the heart of innovation
societies is what food does, and the chef
wears that hat and wears that robe.
So to create that new novel experience
where food becomes a lot more immersive and
discussion,
(13:53):
it becomes very fashionable.
Mhmm.
And it's it's a piece of art as
well Yeah. Which you you see with your
eyes,
but you taste it's the art of the
taste as well. You know, I talk about
Heston Blumenthal. You know, if he puts a
if there's a carrot in front of you,
but it's actually a chocolate cake.
It's a carrot
(14:14):
that looks like a carrot. Yes. But when
you taste, it's actually a chocolate cake when
you taste it. So that's, you know, how
we confuse people,
and the consumers are looking for
difference, excitement,
and they're willing to taste and sample new
things.
So science brings you that preciseness.
So it's nothing to be scared scared about.
(14:36):
It's part of the evolution of be of
being the chef.
And also within that, we know we toss
in the things which were around us.
You know, we talk about consumers that are
the adventurous foodie
who tastes the insects,
or eats them. There's our famous restaurant in
Copenhagen or Denmark where you eat the raw
(14:57):
insects with with the food.
But we're also bringing the issues around the
role of science in the development of food
in the terms of you can talk about
cell based food or,
in vitro based food. We can talk about
the creation of
artificial meat. We can talk about the creation
(15:17):
of artificial fish as well in in terms
of fish farms.
So
everything we've got in there is is the
role of science.
And it's not to scare you, but it's
to bring the debate to the forefront
in the terms of what it is and
what it what it is. Because we live
in a society which is actually
(15:39):
a lot more educated. You know, nineteen sixties,
'4 percent of the population
in Europe went to university, whereas today, 40
to 45%
of school leavers go to university. So the
more educated they understand science, they're more aware,
they travel the world.
So they're more sophisticated,
(15:59):
in the terms of things. But,
you know, tourism, hospitality is part of the
experience economy,
and science drives
change and novelty.
And the ultimate experience to me is food
Yeah. Because it uses all senses
rather than just, like, tourism. Just
you see something and gazing,
(16:20):
where food is you consume it. Yep.
So
it's it's part of the advancement of food
and cuisine. Okay. Now
some people may say, well, could science based
cuisine democratize gourmet dining
or deepen culinary inequality?
Well, I think,
democratization,
(16:40):
that's a that's an interesting question.
There's several answers to that in different perspectives.
If you look at the advancement of luxury,
for example,
luxury has advanced in society because it's all
about the democratization.
We've got more middle classes in the world.
And as you get increased in middle classes,
(17:03):
we experience different things. And right at the
heart of the democratization
of luxury
has been food and cuisine
in the terms of accessibility.
We can afford to
eat or treat ourselves in a Michelin starred
restaurant. May not go there every day,
but we're on holiday.
(17:24):
It's a celebration.
So
all of that food becomes
a point of
democratization.
And you've also got to remember,
how we access a Michelin star restaurant,
we we do it at different points. So,
the lunch menu is different. The the price
(17:45):
for the lunch menu
is usually different from the price of the
dinner menu.
There's always a special on somewhere.
So restaurant prices and Michelin starred restaurants
price
at different times
in the terms of exclusivity.
But even if you look at the the
history and the evolution of Michelin starred restaurants,
(18:08):
it's now about good cuisine.
So a Michelin starred
restaurant can actually be a street vendor in
Singapore
to,
a three star Michelin restaurant in Oslo. That's
right. Yes. But they're just different.
What the script is for a Michelin star
(18:29):
restaurant is changing. Mhmm.
So there's a degree of democratization
on one hand.
But on the other hand, if you look
at,
even saw the Royal Mayfair scenario, which is
more
about exclusivity,
you you know, luxuries changed in the terms
of,
(18:52):
when you luxury is no longer luxury
if it's accessible to the to the to
the to the vast majority of us.
So we have to create
different types of experiences
within the experience economy,
that go beyond exclusivity.
And that's probably around the scenarios of
(19:15):
if you look at Le Natural
and if you look at,
Roots,
where craft and authenticity
become
the
story of
luxury. Yep. A a a a different aspect.
So, you know, some of the scenarios overlap
Yep. And inter intertwine with each other. So
(19:37):
So perhaps we can
move over to the second
scenario, La Naturale food trail
Mhmm. Where you've,
scenario shifts towards sustainability and wellness.
So may perhaps you can talk about this
and then because somehow
something I can relate to being living in
the Nordics.
Yeah. Well,
(19:58):
I I apologize. This is where we need
it. Did you say the root scenario oil
and natural? Natural.
Well, I think if you look at natural,
it was a provocative question.
As
as society and climate change, where food becomes
more scarce,
one of the things
that scenario responds to is the advancement of
(20:19):
science.
And in that scenario,
the advancement of science is about mass production,
and it's where a a lot of the
food tastes the same.
So in your everyday discourse of what you're
buying,
it's the corporation
that is controlling the food chain,
and everything seems the same. So it's a
(20:41):
world of McDonald's
and, you know, a McDonald's or a Burger
King is the same everywhere.
So food has become very,
homo homo homo homo homo homo homo homo
homo homo homo homo homo homo homo homo
homo homo homo homo homo homo homo homo
homo hom
(21:02):
how do you create something that's very different
in a different world? How do you create
something
that's about
a a paradise?
How do you create
something
that's your vision? I mean, it's like the
Spice Girls,
and they have a song called, what do
you really, really, really, really want?
(21:23):
And that's what that is about. Yeah. Because
the thing about this scenario is,
it's a scenario
where everybody can buy into it. Because the
thing about food from a political perspective
is
all of the stake stakeholders,
whether you're the farmer
(21:44):
to
the butcher
to
the restaurant
or the destination.
Food is very important because food is about
the place you are.
So here we have a scenario where we're
using food
to drive
(22:06):
regenerative tourism, a regenerative approach where we we're
focusing on
looking at food as as well-being and health,
to create
something that we want and we we dream
about. So it's about
a journey
to create something. Yeah. And it's about creating
(22:27):
a better world. So that's what that scenario
is all about. Le Natural Food Trail
in Tuscany
and slaw food movement,
a different society, what we dream about, and
what we want. Yeah. So could this regenerative
fooders have become the new status symbol in
luxury travel?
Yeah. It does. And it's already
(22:48):
very fluid concept
Yeah. In in the terms of what we
got. So it's a it's a concept of
Michelin starred restaurant and materialism
and high end.
But also to many people,
luxury is also about
time and isolation,
switching off from a fast busy life.
(23:08):
And also food is it's also about
creating something new,
education.
I I've learned something.
So
so, for example, if we look at those
in the Nordic countries,
luxury to people in the Nordic country
is about isolation and time.
Whereas if you if you're from China or
(23:29):
India, it's more materialistic.
So what the concept is and how you
escape to it is very important.
So for example, one of the examples we
talk about
in is,
one one is not is
is is the Faroe Islands.
Faroe Islands are tiny it's a tiny island
(23:52):
in the terms of collection.
It's not going to be mass tourism.
It's got a sense of uniqueness,
and it's about
taking a regenerative hospitality
perspective
and putting people into the home
of people from the Faroe Islands
and
getting them to understand what the cuisine is
(24:14):
and living the experience
that's rustic,
that's well-being,
and it's small scale and slow scale and
an immersive experience.
So that's luxury. It's a very basic experience,
but it's also expensive and high end because
of the degree of rarity Yes. And the
limited capacity.
(24:36):
So will the chef now have a wellness
responsibility
beyond taste and presentation?
Yeah. They do. They they do. And,
such that the chef has a multiple role
in society today. Yeah.
The chef is at the forefront
of what food is.
You've got the chef
who's passionate about what is food and where
(24:57):
it comes from. You've got the chef who's
an food activist.
They're the ones that are championing
in creating the conversation
about what food is
and where it goes.
You've got the chef as the innovator.
You've got the chef as the historian,
who is the one that's working with historical
(25:17):
ingredients from the destination
and creating new dishes.
You've got the chef, who's the ambassador
for cult
for the living culture,
the cultural identity of a place, and the
food that they create.
So the chef has a
the chef or head chef has a very
(25:38):
broad
understanding of cuisine and they wear multiple hats
going forward
in the terms of what they do. So
it's more than the kitchen. Yes. It's the
story. It's the ambassador role. It's the historical
role. It's the there's a whole range of
different things there. Yeah. I remember
being in, in Alsace,
(25:59):
in, in France where,
we stayed in a very nice hotel
and,
the chef was when they presented the menu,
they're clearly made us understand
that
everything which is on the menu with all
the, the, the produce and ingredients
is within the three kilometer radius. So, yeah,
so
(26:20):
if it and they're relying on the season
seasonality. So you don't expect to see,
fresh squeezed orange juice there in the morning,
but you have some berries.
Yep. Something like that. And I I was
fascinated about this idea, and
I love orange juice. So I thought, well,
if I have to go for orange juice,
then I better go to Sicily or or
(26:40):
or Spain or Italy. But I was really
impressed about their commitment to to that,
responsibility about this idea, that they only
buy from or get from the local the
local community. So that's really a regenerative
way of handling this. So I was really
impressed about it.
Yeah. And and that's the thing about food
(27:01):
to me. One of the things about food,
it's something we've all got an opinion about,
and it represents who we are in our
identity.
And
we need to go beyond
our traditional perceptions
of what the cuisine industry is.
And you think about a career in
in the restaurant industry, it's more than the
(27:24):
restaurant. Yes.
And it's it's
in the pivotal role of the chef and
the pivotal role of the chef of the
future.
Yeah.
So let's move over then to
the Royal Mayfair. The little bit darker vision,
I feel, and I would Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yes and no.
Royal Mayfair is a to some, it's a
(27:46):
dystopian scenario. Yeah. But luxury is about exclusivity.
Yeah.
And
it's about
can you afford to go there in the
terms of the so this is a world
to me
and this star story was actually,
motivation by a film called Soil and Green
(28:07):
Yes. With with Charlton Heston. Soil and Green
are people.
Yeah. Soil and Green are people, and that
type of thing. But if you were rich
in society, you could afford real food. Yeah.
And you lived in a gated commodities,
whereas the masses
just had Soylent Green, which was a a
food tablet. Yeah. So we just extended that
(28:28):
and looked at that story and recreated it,
looking at a dystopian
world where there's the haves and the have
nots,
exclusive restaurants in the Royal May Fourth Square
Mile of London.
You know, the British government is running out
of money. The royal family is in poverty,
so they have to, you know, you
(28:51):
you can dine with the with the king
and queen of England.
Buckingham Palace is,
sponsored by Disneyland,
and, you know, the they've got a McDonald's
at at at at Hollywood Palace.
So so it's all about revenue and generosity
and stuff like that. It's not narcissism,
(29:14):
hedonistic.
You know, I've got money, so I'm going
I've got money, so I'm going to enjoy
it. Whereas you, the common
people, you're my servants.
You can,
you can,
serve me. I may give you a few
(29:34):
crumbs once in a while and experience that
in the terms of that. But it's also
a lot about innovation Yeah. And about driving
that. Because one of the things I've learned
is
exclusivity is the three star Michelin starred restaurant.
The Michelin I'll go back to the Michelin.
But it's also about what the the opposite
side of that, what Michelin starred restaurants do
(29:56):
for a destination.
Exclusive restaurants are the pioneers,
the the early adopters of trends.
They set the scene for
the mass of the restaurant industry, and they
follow.
They like the fashion show of Paris and
Milan.
And these are what Michelin star restaurants do.
(30:16):
We look to them for the latest trends.
So Royal Mailford is about exclusivity
and economic high value
into that market,
but it's it's
and there's dystopian parts to it, but there's
also parts to it that we want and
will drive change
of where the experience economy is going.
(30:38):
Because also the restaurant industry is all about
innovation.
It's also about failure and high turnover.
But
if you create more economic well-being and economic
value
from this this process,
it does have a spin down effect
in the terms of what of what you've
got.
(30:59):
So
exclusivity in in Michelin starred restaurants
create value at the top that filter down
to other communities,
in the terms of do doing things. Yeah.
Interesting. Now
I'm just think catching on this this fine
dining,
is exclusive, to the elite in this world
(31:20):
may fare. So is food tour food tourism
still cultural, or is it the power display
in in this I think there's a bit
of both. Yeah.
The definite in this in the Royal Mayfair
restaurant, there is a power display Yeah. Of
where power where power is.
And we and we we we show that
off.
(31:40):
So there's definitely that end, but that's the
reality
of
that's the reality of
tourism and hospitality.
It's stores that can afford it and those
that can't afford it and those that are
in the middle somewhere.
So there's something about
power
and how
power creates
experiences, and we can't and that's how you
(32:02):
deal with it and how you manage it.
Yeah.
So then your final scenario, roots, is perhaps
most the most
grounded, focusing on authenticity, heritage, and culinary identity.
So this is where food Yeah. I apologize.
You you finished the question. Yeah. It resonates
with today's traveler seeking local, honest food. So
please tell me how how you approached to
(32:23):
to the the to roots and, what that
talks about more in detail. Well, roots was
it's it's about the place in the history.
Yeah.
There's also a degree about when we did
the book, we we we did talk to
climate change scientists and farmers and those that
are involved in food production.
And one of the things they did say
was,
(32:45):
we're very adaptable.
Food changes. You know, we invented the fertilizer.
Food, we grow crops, for example.
There's new forms of wheat there that adapt
to climate change.
We have new forms of rice, new forms
of noodles
that are
all being researched
(33:06):
and will come through.
So
to a certain extent, there's a degree of
scaremongering
in some of the scenarios you've written.
But on the other hand,
food is adaptable.
So we can create something
which
is,
still about place, and we don't lose that
(33:28):
place.
So that's about
that heterogeneous identity
and about preserving history.
Because, again, it goes back to the role
of the chef. He's a cultural ambassador.
That chef is still a person that's interested
in history.
You know, I was listening so this is
a scenario about,
(33:51):
Koi Samui Koi Samui in Thailand, One of
the islands,
and about
how what Thailand is doing in terms
of the food of Thailand because Thailand as
a destination has realized it's not just about
the beach and sun and parties.
There's a strong emphasis on food now to
attract the tourist.
And if you're living in this world where
(34:12):
food is mass production,
you need something
that's
what's local and how do you preserve it.
Because from a climate change perspective, there's going
to be winners and losers.
Those that are in the middle of the
Equator,
where heat is in really intense,
they have
(34:33):
prop they have problems. That's that's the the
critical uncertainties.
But there are other places where climate changes
of benefits or the impact of climate change
is not as great. There's still gonna be
changes to water and food and what we
do.
So
you get clusters of goodness.
And this is about Kuisimoi,
focusing on place,
(34:53):
focusing on history, and preserving that. Very good.
And keeping it as heterogeneous identity,
but where history's at the forefront.
So food's about being a cultural ambassador.
And it's also very community orientated,
where everybody's involved and everybody has a responsibility
(35:14):
for food and that type of thing. Yeah.
I I lived a part of my career
in Thailand, so I'm very familiar with this
approach. And one of the,
very popular
programs that we created was,
culinary classes where we invited the Mhmm. One
of the depending on the restaurant or the
Thai chef to give a cooking class, how
(35:35):
to make sum tam or,
and all the authenticity.
But they all I always made
feel at one time, and actually, when I
look back. So I was wondering, is the
pursuit of authentic cuisine a celebration or a
curated illusion for tourists?
It's both. Yeah. It's it's both in the
terms of that
because one answer to the question is authenticity
(35:57):
adapts and changes.
You know, for example, Walt Disney in Disneyland
is
an authentic experience.
It has a history.
Las Vegas has a history.
So it's been curated and evolved, but when
you but people think it is an authentic
experience, and they wouldn't want it to be
anything else.
And that's the one thing about food.
(36:19):
It does not stay stuck in the past.
Food is a is a is about fusion.
It blends. It changes,
of where we go and how we adapt
it.
It adapts to marketplaces. So,
you know you know, food's about mobility,
and, you know, many of the restaurants of
(36:41):
the world
are are managed or owned
or SMEs, small
medium operators, independent entrepreneurs.
So where you take migrants, say, for example,
coming from India,
they're the ones that open the Indian restaurants,
and that's what we do, eat in The
UK. They're not food of The UK. It's
a curry. Yeah. It it's a food of
(37:01):
fusion of development.
And if you look at places like the
West Midlands or the city to Bir
Birmingham, that city's cuisine is identified as the
Balti.
It's the the immigrants that have come from
India,
settled in the West Midlands, and create adapted
to a food dish
(37:21):
of that of of that region.
So food
adapts and changes,
but it still has that authenticity.
I was watching a BBC TV. There's a
there's a series at the moment
on the BBC
called,
glow it's about global food.
(37:42):
And we were looking at the food of
Poland
and the humble dumpling.
And one of the roles of the chef
has
been twofold.
What are the historical ingredients
and fillings you associate with the Polish dumpling?
And presenting
that food
to the consumer,
(38:03):
but also taking the humble dumpling
and being innovative with new flavors and new
concepts and presenting it different ways.
So it's still right the dumpling in Poland
is still at the heart of cuisine
of what it is,
and it's authentic,
but it's also adapted.
So it's staged, but it's also it's also
(38:25):
rustic.
But that's the great thing about food. It
has diversity.
Yeah. But
what it's all about is good food
cooked the right way, presented the right way
in a very professional manner. And that's what
cuisine and food tourism is all about. Yeah.
Fascinating all these different,
(38:47):
scenarios. So if we were more into the
design challenges,
each scenario raises
design
design challenges,
what new experience could emerge and so on.
Maybe you can, think of speak about,
how how this might change, how we build
hotels, and,
(39:07):
and what are the destinations for these possible
futures?
Well, I've I've talked about many of the
design challenges and experiences
you you've got there. And each scenario presented
each scenario shaped by
fifteen, sixteen trends
that create that story of of that environment.
And the design challenges were about
(39:28):
taking those some of the trends that were
in there
and
redesigning redesigning
things. So,
in one of the scenarios,
I can there's a number of scenarios we
can talk about. But one of the scenarios
was about,
the last wine club.
(39:49):
We're living in a world where
climate change has been very significant.
You're talking about climate change at four to
five to five degrees,
whereas, for example,
destroyed
the wine industry in California.
So and and you haven't been able to
(40:09):
to do that. But science has responded
by creating synthetic wines.
And those synthetic wines are really good,
but they lack something.
But as you go further into the future,
our supplies of vintage wines
become rarer.
And this is the story
(40:30):
of the last bottle of wine
and the experience
of consuming that last bottle of wine and
what it's all about.
And that's about rarity,
exclusivity,
and high value,
and that drives
the experience economy. It drives,
(40:53):
top end restaurants
in in in in in wine wine bars.
And to a certain extent, we there's also
that debate about
visiting the last resort or the seeing the
glazes before they melt. So this is just
that classical example.
And how much would you pay
for that last,
that last experience in the terms of what
(41:14):
you do?
Because it's it's quite chilly
of what it's all about, exclusivity
top end in the terms of prices.
But luxury is about exclusivity in doing that.
So that's one example
of
of do doing that. So
it's way to we talk about Royal Mayfair
(41:34):
and the chapter by,
Susan Harkinson from
AUT University in New Zealand.
And she talks she talks about
the royal family selling itself out.
They've they've
sold their soul
in the terms of McDonald's
(41:56):
and,
Burger King and Starbucks and creating that to
create revenue.
They talk about Royal Mayfair
in the terms of we need to create
revenue because we're in a time of of
economic recession and how industries
and how industries respond
with fine dining experiences,
(42:17):
exclusive experiences,
and and looking and looking at novelty.
Yeah. In the terms
of what they are.
We also talk about some of the design
challenges about authenticity.
So if you talk about
if we talk
about if we so editing again. So if
(42:39):
we talk about
I've lost
it.
So if we talk about,
you know, chapter nine in roots,
it's a case study of some of the
issues around
(43:00):
the noodles of Japan
and the the traditional noodle and because of
the price of wheat.
The price of wheat is getting very expensive.
We're also
in Japan. It's also about Japan
(43:22):
and aging population,
so nobody wants to train as a noodle
chef.
So those traditions
about
how do you hand down experiences,
you know, how you make something
how you make something
is tacit knowledge. You've got to learn to
be a noodle chef on the job to
(43:43):
make the most the best noodles in the
world. And how how do you create that
and what do you do
in the terms of that? So the the
loss of the noodle in Japan as a
consequence in the terms of that high in
the terms of that high end authentic experiences
in the terms of doing that. Yeah.
We've talked about,
(44:04):
we've talked about
home hospitality and the Faroe Islands and some
of the design challenges that we've got there
and how the islands can put
use cultural identity
and what the food is
to create a very immersive
local
experience that everybody can buy into.
(44:26):
In the terms of because regenerative hospitality
and regenerative food is about everybody
being involved
in the terms of in the terms of
doing things.
And and that's that's that becomes
extreme that becomes extremely
important.
Yep. So But on the other hand,
it is,
(44:48):
we talk about,
new restaurants. If you look at Doctor. Spock's
restaurant, we look at the present debate
about
cell based food,
because at the moment,
in vitro food
is only available to buy in Singapore.
(45:08):
You know, you can go there's one licensed
butcher.
There's one licensed restaurant
where you can go to get this
to get this type of food.
And there's also a fear of science
and change because we've had all of the
debates
about GM food,
and
we want something natural and that type of
(45:30):
thing. But we're we're creating the debate. It's
all about price and accessibility.
Where do you trade off price,
and overcoming your fear of science to to
eat to to eat that in the terms
of doing things?
So there's lots going on in the terms
of doing things. And we talk about here
(45:51):
in Lowooden.
We talked about the advancements of science in
in the Vadensea
area.
Because the food here in Loire and the
northern provinces of The Netherlands
is very earthy and very salty.
So how do you take the science of
salt
and taste
(46:12):
to create new types of species in the
terms of new types of fish, new types
of seaweed?
How do you use the water in the
sea
to change flavors?
Because flavors is right at the heart of
science in what we do. So the purpose
of the design challenges
was to drive innovation
because
(46:34):
the restaurant industry, the wine the restaurant industry
is all about innovation.
It's a very
entrepreneurial,
adaptive,
fast paced industries
where you have diversity,
and it's also about
it's also about opportunity.
(46:55):
The restaurant industry, the food industry
never stands still. Yeah.
How should the hoteliers or chefs start to
future proofing today? Because I'm sure that the
chefs who are listening in here, some of
them are we're gonna wondering
where is the future now? So any tips
you can just give them to to calm
them down? Yeah. Well, I think let's look
(47:17):
at the role of the chef. There's actually
less there's a real big issue about chefs
at the moment. There's less of them. Yeah.
So I think
as a chef, the chef is not the
chef anymore.
Yeah. The chef is now an ambassador
and a food activist.
So the role of the chef changes is
you've got to be at the forefront
(47:38):
of representing the changing values in society.
You you are the new ambassadors.
You are the new climate change activists
in the terms of where you go. And
if you're doing that,
you become the center of the community.
You become the spokesperson
of change around climate change.
(48:00):
But the thing about food is not just
about the environment.
You embrace innovation,
new ideas,
new foods.
Your consumer and your you the person that
eats what you produce
wants novelty,
wants
wants that new experience,
(48:21):
So you embrace
innovation.
You
adapt
to new ideas of food service. You know,
we talked one of their
scenarios
talks about
talks about the
actually, the chef is replaced by a robot.
(48:43):
And we're at that stage where,
you know, does that mean the end of
the chef?
And a robot produces produces
the food, but that's just an extension
of
technology and science in the kitchen at the
moment.
But to write the program
or to write the algorithm
(49:05):
that drives the robot to do to cook
it, he's gonna it's it's gotta be the
human that creates the input or the lang
or the large language model
to to to drive all of that change.
And if you've got a chef shortage of
chefs in the future,
let the robotics develop that. Let the robotics
(49:27):
create economies of scale
in the finements
to to do that in the terms of
doing things.
So you're embracing AI. You're embracing embracing technology.
But
so you
you you become passionate about food.
You become the storyteller,
(49:49):
the ambassador,
the historian
for the place.
So you're wearing all of these multiple hats
in the terms of going forward.
So it enhances
the role
of the hotelier.
It enhances the role of the restaurateur.
It enhances the role of the chef going
forward because
you become
(50:11):
the icon
of change Yeah. And embrace. And so you've
got everything from history, authenticity
to the experience economy,
and you're passionate about that. Very good. I
think you have calmed down most of the
chefs now
listening.
So
out of those four scenarios
that we talked about,
which scenario do you person feel is more
(50:32):
likely or most worth working toward, or is
there one?
I think there's a degree of every all
when you do scenarios, there's a degree of
truth in all of them. Yeah. There's not
just one pathway
of what we do. We as a consumer
are interested in
breadth and novelty and experiences.
We want to test something new in the
(50:54):
terms of sampling, but we also want safety
and authenticity.
So there's such
you you need to ask the question, look
at all four scenarios
and what conclusions do you draw of what
you want. But also with the four scenarios,
it gives destinations or restaurants
or businesses the opportunity to say, this is
the pathway I want to follow,
(51:16):
and this is what I want to do.
Because the the restaurant industry is not just
about doing everything. It's about doing something.
So,
look at the four scenarios,
and you pick up what you feel comfortable
with in the terms of going forward
because they're all shared each scenario shared by
15 to 16
(51:37):
different trends
in the terms of what you go.
But the the key things I'm trying to
say is
innovation and sustainability
go together.
Yeah. But climate change climate change is going
to happen,
but we
to to deal with it,
we drive sustainability
in parallel with innovation, and they come together
(51:59):
to create something,
to preserve the past, or to create something
new.
Very good. Okay. There's a a clearly a
call to action to all the chefs and
hoteliers who are listening in. So,
which is the pathway you like you would
like to follow? So please write in the
comment, and I will summarize all the comments,
and I I'll pass them back to doctor
(52:20):
Ian Yeoman for as a appreciation of, that
he has been here today. So my final
question then is,
what is sort of,
how do people find find you? How can
they reach out if they want to connect
with you? And how can they find a
book that's coming out Okay. And so on?
(52:41):
Well, the book's available on Channelview's
website, which I'll send you the link channelview.com.
Okay.
And I'll also give you the discount code
for the book.
But if you just Google Ian Yorman,
I'm on LinkedIn, and I've got a strong
website presence on
on our university website at NHL Stenden.
(53:01):
So just Google the name.
I'm there.
And also I'll give you my email address
as well, and you can put that on
the
in into the video and all of the
contact details.
Very good. So in conclusion, Ian, I appreciate
you joining today today's episode, and thank you
very much for all your fantastic insight.
It's been a pleasure.
(53:22):
Thank you for tuning into the social hotelier.
If you enjoy this episode, please take a
moment to leave us a review. Give it
a thumbs up and don't forget to hit
that subscribe button to stay updated. We have
an incredible lineup of guests coming your way,
so stay tuned for more thought provoking conversations.
Until next time. Take care and keep exploring.
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