May 10, 2025 • 50 mins
🎙️ Welcome to The Social Hotelier Show with Sam-Erik Ruttmann – named one of the Top 20 Hotel Podcasts globally by FeedSpot!
🌟 In this exclusive conversation, Sam-Erik interviews Marc Dardenne, CEO of Modon Hospitality, on the evolving role of hospitality education, leadership transformation, and why rethinking hotel design, branding, and talent engagement is urgent in today’s changing world.
💡 Marc reflects on his return to Ecole Hôtelière de Lausanne as a guest lecturer — 43 years after graduating — and what he learned from engaging directly with the next generation of hospitality leaders.
🔍 What You’ll Discover:
✨ The future of hospitality leadership
✨ Why modern students need mentors more than manuals
✨ 24-hour check-ins, tech-driven guest journeys & facial recognition
✨ Why “Heart of House” design matters as much as the lobby
✨ The truth about SOPs, flexibility & employee expectations
✨ How to build hospitality brands from culture, not just checklists
🧠 About Marc Dardenne:
👔 CEO, Modon Hospitality – Abu Dhabi
🏨 Former COO at Accor Luxe Europe, Group COO Jumeirah, CEO Emaar Hospitality Group and Armani Hotels and Resorts
📚 Guest Lecturer at EHL (Lausanne)
💼 Connect: https://www.linkedin.com/in/marc-dardenne
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
Hi, everyone. Welcome back to the Social Hotelier
podcast with me, Sam Erik Ruttman.
Feedspot has selected as one of the top
20 hotel pot podcasts on the web, And
this recognition
reinforces the value of conscious dialogue in hospitality,
conversation that matter with people who care about
the impact.
Grateful to
(00:24):
the inspiring thought leaders who have joined me
over the years and to all of you
who have tuned in. So I have a
thought leader with me for this episode, and
that's Mark Nardin, who has been with me
several times. Mark is a chief executive officer
of Abu Dhabi based Modern Hospitality. So welcome,
Mark, and thanks for joining today. Thank you,
Sam. Great to be invited again on your
(00:45):
podcast. I think, you know, it's a great
activity, and I always love the interaction with
you. We go back so many, many years,
and, let's try to make it interesting.
Yeah.
Very good. So,
first of all, I think for our audience
to get some background,
what motivated you to return to
(01:05):
Ecole Hotelier hospitality business school as a guest
lecturer, and how does it and how does
it feel stepping back into the classroom from
a lens of a seasoned executive?
Actually, that was, really the most exciting
week of of the year for me. You
know? I was really looking forward to it.
I mean, I I I forgot actually when
I graduated, so I had to to dig
(01:27):
out my diploma
somewhere in my boxes. And then I found
out that,
you know, I I graduated forty three years
ago. You know? So you figure out my
age.
But,
it's absolutely delightful
to go back to a school where you
you went to so many years back. I
mean, I I went to visit a few
times, and I always enjoyed
(01:49):
speaking to the students and talking and but
this time was really,
a full week with,
33 MBA students.
And,
you know, two things I was,
number one, excited to be back at the
school. The second thing, I was actually quite
nervous. Right? I wanted to make sure that,
I was going to go do a good
job. And when you when you start something
(02:11):
totally new, and I always like to challenge
myself,
it's exciting, but, you you're a little bit
nervous also. You know? So
and for me, why go back?
You know, obviously, I had
many, many years of careers, and our careers
cross, over the years. Also, I remember when
we were in Bali together.
And, for me, it was really trying to
(02:32):
give back really to the young generation
and see if they would be interested
to to hear a little bit about,
about hospitality.
Yeah. And that's very good, I mean, that
you're doing that. And I I like the
idea that,
to even it I mean, we're both about
same age, that we're both challenging ourselves
(02:53):
to learn. And when you're a lecturer, you
actually are challenging yourself because you have to
kind of think,
how you can make the,
think about,
their spending.
I don't know how many hours they spent
with you. That that that time is this
never come back to them. So it has
to be make them worthwhile that they sat
for those lectures and the conversations. So and
(03:14):
that's how I always feel when I have
to do things in front of people that
that,
I I'm I'm
that's a time that I'm with them that
has to be worthwhile to them. And I'm
grateful if I get feedback that it worked
out, and I'm, of course,
have to learn from there if I have
to kind of learn something else. So I
I can I can appreciate that nervousness that
you go through because I would have exactly
(03:35):
the same?
But, you know, looking at your, your background,
you know, we we both have worked internationally
for years. How do you decide which real
world experience
to share with students to both inspire and
and to educate? Because you have a lot
of things you can,
dig into.
Sure. Sure. I mean,
we got so many stories, right, from
(03:56):
from, early starts to,
you know, living in countries like, you know,
in Africa, back to Europe, in Asia, etcetera,
etcetera. You know? So,
you know, I I I I was thinking,
when I was developing the course, you know,
what what is really the benefit that I
can bring to the table. Right? So because
in today's age, really,
(04:18):
with AI and,
you know, the Internet, etcetera,
I I I think the whole education process
is really changing, and we'll have to rethink.
And I'm sure even all the universities
and schools are rethinking,
this new age. Right? So I I I
was thinking, what what can I really bring
to the table? And I said, look here.
(04:39):
I can what I can bring to the
table is really my real time experiences
because it's not,
textbook. Right? It's it's really what I went
through and my experiences on the good, on
the bad, what I would have done differently,
etcetera, etcetera.
And the other part is that,
obviously, over the years, I've, grown my network
(05:01):
like you. You know, people that were, humble
beginnings are now in great positions.
And,
I was,
really very excited,
to hear that, they were very willing to
dial in. You know? So for I'll give
a couple examples. I had Simon Kassen.
He's currently the president of, Gorintia.
(05:21):
He was the president of Four Seasons. And
I called him up and I said, Simon,
I know you're a busy man.
Would you be willing to dial in and
be a judge for,
for,
the students because they had to develop a
project? And then I had another frown. He
said, yes. Absolutely.
You know, I'll do it. And that's three
hour three hours of his time, of his
valuable time.
(05:43):
Another example is, Stefan Lesser. He's currently CEO
in,
in Saudi. He was CEO of Langham. He
was CEO of Jumeirah, etcetera.
Again, you know, I think they're sharing the
same spirit that I have is that it
is our responsibility
as senior leaders
to give back to these young stew students
(06:04):
and also
excite them about the business. Right? So because,
I think the hospitality business,
for me, or even my wife asking me,
would you would you have done something different
if today,
you you you had a choice. Right? Now,
at that time, we didn't have that many
choices because you became a doctor, an engineer,
(06:26):
a hotelier, and then we did our career,
etcetera.
But today, there's much more choices. But I
told her that, no, I would have never
changed because
I think,
our business is incredibly exciting,
and it's it's it's,
it's so so so varied. Right? I think.
(06:47):
And that's also the spirit that I wanted
to share with, the students, you know, to
encourage them to really try hospitality.
Very good. So but the those students are
coming from a hospitality background because it's held
obviously at the that business school, or are
there are there some others who are coming
from a different background but want to step
into this, industry just to understand the kind
(07:09):
of profile
of of the students that you have. Yeah.
I I I think, you know, the hotel
school has changed really from my time,
you know, forty three years ago. The the
hotel school in Lausanne was a true hotel
school. You learned how to serve. You learned
how to cook. You looked how
to, you know, the good old style, and
eventually, you looked at management, etcetera, etcetera. But
(07:30):
now it's a real business school. Right? But
I think
it's a great school. And when you look
at it, unfortunately,
potentially, I think it's up at 30 or
35%
of the students only stay in hospitality.
Yeah. Most of them go in different branch,
which is fine. Right? But,
it shows that hospitality
teaches them,
(07:52):
to be well rounded,
individuals. Right? So you have a lot of
banks, wealth management. You have, obviously, consultancies,
and so on. We're looking,
for these students
because they they have a well rounded background.
I mean, I had 33 students,
all very polite,
well dressed,
very
(08:12):
versatile,
very eager to learn. I I was I
was very impressed by by the students, I
must say.
Very good. Yeah. I mean, this is,
I was I I one of the things
I was interested to learn that
consider the how you how when you were
a student yourself when you graduated forty three
years ago, how to today's
(08:33):
students differ from the from,
your your peers and so on.
But I think you answered the question now
because they're coming from a different background and
so on. Yeah. But it was nice also
to see the different nationalities. You know? I
had students from, obviously,
Europe,
quite a few Swiss, but French and,
(08:53):
German. I had, a few students from China,
India,
Middle East,
you know, Africa. It was it was great
to have this
this,
33
students, individuals,
different backgrounds
in one room
and,
pretty much the same age. You know? They
were all,
(09:14):
MBA students also. They had gone for four
years of BA.
But,
and I I always say you learn so
much, right,
from the students as much as you give
them.
You will also learn from them for sure.
Yeah. Yeah.
So in what way have the questions and
(09:34):
insights from the students challenged or reshaped your
own thinking as a leader? Because I think
you must have picked up some ideas from
this time from that intensive time you were
as a lecturer.
Yes. You know, because,
the the the course was also based on
on group work. Right? So, you know, one
thing that they had to learn is, you
(09:55):
know, work under pressure, work under deadline, deliverables,
work as a group,
which is, I think, an import important learning
over and above the subject. Right? So for
me, that was really part,
they were assigned,
early on on the on the first day
to form groups and then to present the
(10:16):
project and,
present that project to a shark tank. You
know, that's where Simon Kacen was and Stefan,
etcetera.
So, obviously,
what impressed me, what I learned is really,
how creative they could be and how quickly
they could really bring things to the table,
(10:38):
and as a group,
how well they work together. Right? So and
some groups work better, some maybe not as
well, etcetera.
But,
that was that was certainly
a big learning.
Mhmm. Fantastic.
Yeah. So, just thinking about
(10:59):
what what, how do you bridge the gap
between academic theories and the realities of high
level corporate decision making in your session? Or
is it or is it basically on, looking
at your experience rather than the academic theories?
Yeah. I think the the academic really you
know, obviously, I don't have a PhD.
I'm not, you know, I that's back to
(11:20):
what I thought at the beginning. You know?
How can I bring the best value for
the students? How can they learn the most?
Right? So
and,
it's it's through a process of developing, obviously,
a concept throughout,
the week, a luxury concept. And it could
be anything, really, from beginning from a to
zed.
And then,
(11:41):
inviting some key speakers, you know, that they
they could really speak to to people that
are on the ground. Right? So I had,
for example,
somebody from venture capital, right, to say, okay.
If you have a concept,
you know, you'd like to have funding, you
need to sell your concept. How are you
gonna do it? What are the key points,
(12:01):
you know, that you have to think of?
As an example. Right? So then
I had some,
some of, my,
friends and contacts in the branding industry. You
know? How how important is branding,
for your concept, the right branding, the right
positioning,
etcetera.
Human capital. Right? How do you develop,
(12:22):
a wing winning organization?
A dear friend of mine who wrote a
book, who used to work with me,
also
agreed
to join, and it was a great session
about creating
a culture,
you know, a vision for the company
and also making sure that their vision comes
true.
And then we we also looked at leadership
(12:43):
styles. You know? So so I did a
comparison
between
between,
two two senior leaders, Jack Welsh, you know,
who's we all know his leadership style,
and then Hubert Jolly,
who really,
preaches that, you know, success comes through the
(13:03):
people. Right? The culture and the people, etcetera.
And they said, where is your leadership side?
You know? Where do you see yourselves? You
know? So so that's the learning bit versus
being textbook. And I use and I myself
use ChatGPT. I said, what what do you
want me to do to write something,
if I can get it? But I I
(13:24):
admit that I had it from ChatGPT. I
said, this is what it is. Now let's
discuss it and and so on. Right? So
so for me,
again, the biggest learning came,
and that's the students. That's the feedback I
got from them also. You know? They really
enjoyed the session,
just because it's it was so true to
life,
(13:44):
and,
I could really tell him true examples
of,
of of, my experiences. So then one session
was also about the
the 10 learnings that I had from my
life. Right? So
we we went through a bit of my
whole career,
and, you know, one is continuous learning. Like,
what you do, what I do, I was,
(14:07):
for that to challenge myself. You know? So,
you know, doing an executive MBA, doing online
courses,
starting to actually teach, etcetera. That's all part
of it. Right? So so
and I thought that that really resonated with
them
a lot. So it's it was really hands
on versus academic.
(14:29):
Then I backed it up, obviously, by theories,
etcetera. But
but,
that was really the concept,
of the whole, teaching.
Okay. So when you spoke about your professional
journey, was there any particular,
theme or topic that resonated most with the
students that actually created conversations and and so
(14:49):
on? If you can speak about that, just
to get the feel of,
what what were the,
the reaction from the students during that time.
Yeah. I mean, they were there was a
lot of,
I must really say,
they they they came quite a few students
came to me and asked for some advice
also.
And, obviously,
(15:09):
some had some ideas, concepts in mind. I
wanted to to get my feedback.
A lot of them were asking, you know,
what do I do
for my next step. Right? So
and that's back to,
what I mentioned earlier, you know, in my
time. I remember my time. I mean, I
loved hospitality. I wanted to travel. I like
(15:31):
people. I like the whole serving bit, and
that was my life. Right? That's the way
I saw it. I I really wanted to
travel the world. I wanted to meet people,
understand different cultures that that was just and
I I somehow
I I'm a a type of person that
likes to serve. You know? I'm the first
one to open a door. It's not because
(15:51):
that's what it is. Right? So you can
see an old lady. I try to help
her. It's a trace of I mean I
mean, not everybody does that.
They should do it. But, anyway,
this is just inherent in me. Right? So
so that's why hospitality spoke to me, and
then we go into you know, went into
a career, you know, after attend school, management
(16:13):
training, assistant F and B F and B.
You know, it was never a question
of doing something totally different. At one stage,
I thought of maybe doing set up something
myself, etcetera. But,
I left, the entrepreneurship to my wife, and
I I did the the career. Where I
want to get to is, today, they have
so many choices,
(16:34):
and they are really confused.
I'm not I'm not saying everybody,
but they really need help.
And very often,
sometimes
the the the institution,
obviously, they try to help them,
but they need mentors. They need help, right,
in in their career path. And, honestly,
(16:55):
it's very difficult to do a health care
school and get your first job. You remember
your I don't know what your first job
was, but that was a management trainee, and
I made $500.
Right? So
it was it was what it was. I
don't I don't know what your first job
was. Oh, well, I had,
it was one of the most important steps
(17:16):
in my in my senior year was to
get as many interviews as possible when the
recruitment guys came in. And,
there's someone who came into the campus like
we both know, Ron Hilbert. Oh, yes. Of
course. Of course. Ron Hilbert. So he he
interviewed me,
and,
and I landed a job with Hyatt thanks
thanks to him. So it was a question
(17:38):
of,
what I want to do. I mean, I
I was I was talking with Sheraton. I
was talking with all the all the different
companies, but I think,
what inspired me at that time
to accept the offer from Hyatt even though
the,
understanding you started as a management trainee was
that I had,
I had a job earlier
(17:59):
as a trainee in in in US, and
the,
director of food and beverage had worked with
Hyatt. So I I was so fascinated about
their,
their,
thinking about, and the creativity.
And
later on, when I joined Hyatt, my my
first place to work was in Dallas,
and there was a
(18:19):
a great director of food and beverage. And
it was David Kong, who who was a
great hotelier.
And he just retired from his recently
from his position,
as a I think he worked with either
Choice Hotels or something. He was in the,
the president of the company. And we run
into each other. Can you imagine?
In in Berlin,
(18:40):
at,
run into each other after all these years,
and
I asked him, do you remember me? Because
I remember you very well. Yes. I remember
you, Sam. So it was kind of a
fun thing that then
so Hyatt was always always choice for me,
and I I never regret it. And I'm
always considered to be the so one one
of the as as Ron called us, one
of Ron's boys. You know? Yes. Yes. Actually,
(19:01):
he interviewed me. He didn't take me. So
that's why I joined.
And I always blamed him. He the second
choice, he he took me, and then I
went to Bali Bali Hyder. That's where we
went. Right? So but the the,
back to these these students. Right? When you
look at, you know, the spending, let's say,
I don't know, 200,000
(19:21):
US or Swiss francs in education,
etcetera, and then we what do we offer
them? Imagine trainee. Right? So,
it's it's it's tough,
and that's why I think we're losing quite
a few people to other businesses. Right? So,
but, again, there's there's so many choices
for them,
so it makes it, very difficult for them
(19:43):
to find their calling.
And I I always say, look. Whatever you
do, you have to be passionate about it.
And I I always tell the story about
my son and,
him wanting to do what I do. But,
after I put him in a month in
a in a hotel,
he realized
maybe that's not what I wanna do. And
he's now very successful doing
(20:04):
crowdfunding and VC, etcetera. So,
wonderful. He he found his passion. Right? So
that's what it is in life. Right? You
have to find your passion.
Even sometimes people find it a little later.
I was, very fortunate. I I found found
a passion immediately. Right? So
but I think,
that's one which leads a little bit to
(20:25):
another subject is really,
how we as an industry
have to change.
Now I would say we are we are
dinosaurs
the way we operate,
and I include myself in the dinosaur category
even though I think I'm a little bit
more forward thinking than some of my colleagues.
But when you look,
(20:46):
how we operate hotels now and how they
were operated before, there's really not that many
changes that we're doing. Right?
And,
you know, peep people change. We I see
a lot of the blame, the new generation.
They don't wanna stay. They they they they
they ask too many questions. And, you know,
(21:06):
there's there's some negativity
on the the younger generation
comparing to us, and we were
at least staying two years in a job
and, you know, doing all this. Right? So
my personal opinion is
I don't think it's helping us very much
to blame the generation. I think we have
to change
as an industry.
(21:27):
And I give you just one example, Ritz
Carlton,
many years ago, maybe ten, fifteen when I
was there.
We were so prescriptive
in
how
you do things. You know? Number one, culture,
which is great. Ladies and gentlemen, serving ladies
and gentlemen is wonderful. Right? But then it
became
(21:48):
what you have to wear, what you can't
wear, what you
you know, so descriptive
to put them really into a box. And
the famous SOPs.
You will you remember the SOPs, the famous
SOPs.
You will do that, and you won't do
that, and you can't do that. And you
serve from the rights. You know? You place
(22:11):
the plate from the right. Even though you're
just two guests talking, you disturb the guest
and put the plate from the right. You
know?
So
you you you can't do that
nowadays to these young people. Right? So
my philosophy on which is, launching a new
brand
is really to break all these molds and
think completely out of the box. Right? So
(22:31):
we're looking at, for example, facial recognition.
What are the big pinpoints in a hotel?
Check-in, check out. Right? We all know.
What's the reception? It's a barrier
between the employee or the colleague
and the guest.
No more no more desks. Right? And I
preached that fifteen or twenty years ago.
(22:52):
Today, it's it's kind of a norm. Okay.
No more test. Nobody says, wow. You know,
this is, like, crazy. This guy is, like,
so ingenious. How did he figure that out?
Right?
Yeah. But, seriously, fifteen years ago, people were
questioning, what do you mean no more test?
Where do we put the computers, etcetera?
And I now my my preaching is facial
recognition.
Yesterday, I came back from a trip. I
(23:15):
landed in Dubai,
you know, showed my face, opened my eyes,
and I was through. So why can't
you step into a hotel?
You know, you you we have all the
preferences,
all the information, the credit card, etcetera.
And then the colleagues can really focus on
the guests
(23:35):
versus being being behind a a desk, looking
at the screen,
no eye contact, etcetera. So I'm not preaching
that we should
remove the employee from the but make it
meaningful for the customers.
Yes. So I think we're diverging a little
bit there, but there's no harm to diverge.
Right?
So so so back to how do we
(23:57):
do we have to really deal with our
employees, the young employees that for
for example, also, they're much more conscious
about the the values
of the the the company. If I preach
that we are a green company and we're
doing all these great things and so on,
and then they look at the back and
(24:17):
say, they don't really care. It's just greenwashing.
And then you wonder why the employee or
the colleague leaves after six months. Right? So
they say, you you told me that you
were,
environment friendly,
company. You're doing all these great social things,
but you're not doing anything.
You know?
Or you're preaching
(24:38):
that you'd deal with all your colleagues with
respect, etcetera. But then I see
you know, I I I my leader just
shouted at me. Right?
How is that? And then you wonder why
they leave. Right? Yes. Yes. So so
so the the and then flexible flexible timing.
They wanna be flexible. You know? You can't
put them in a box. Right? So maybe
(24:59):
we should change the way we approach things
to say
flexibility.
What is really the outcome,
that you want to achieve in terms of
customer satisfaction? Right? What what is the outcome?
I'm not gonna tell you how to do
it.
I'm going to, you know, give you all
the tools. But at the end of the
day, it's up to
you to to really make sure that the
(25:21):
customer is happy.
And that's that's what they're looking for. They
wanna be part of the organization,
etcetera, but
more
less being told, but actually doing it and
feeling parts of the the success story. Right?
So Yeah. There's many different ways that we
can look at and that we have to
think differently
(25:42):
to really attract this new generation to the
hospitality.
Yeah. I mean, it's rightly so. I mean,
I remember those days of SOPs because I
wrote few,
myself. And and I that was the,
thing to do. But now,
still is in the hotels, as you mentioned,
is that we are so focused almost like
(26:03):
a silos about,
the hardware,
in the hotel
and then
the
all that things. And,
and then we if we need to question
ourself, well, what is what are the things
that the guest will
take back from that stay?
Yeah. Are they gonna know are they gonna
(26:23):
know that, all the hardware that we are
so proud of, or is it something else?
And, usually, the answer is that it's experience
that they walk away with. Yeah. So how
can we now create that,
an experience that that is in line of
what, those
guests who are coming to the hotel
are expecting?
And so they're not gonna look at the
the,
the
(26:44):
the brand of of,
the hardware necessarily or something that's in the
back of the house. They're looking for entirely
different. I think the the
the way of thinking from from the start
would need the experience based. And I I
also like the what you're talking about is
that the the the facial recognition is that,
there's a famous thing I I was talking,
(27:05):
had one of one guest on my podcast,
Sylvia de Chu Chuzio, I think her
if I pronounce her name, she talks to
that, you have only seven seconds to make
an impact. You know, it's the
and and I think the history would be
that's those second seven seconds can make a
huge difference. And,
technology is here. I mean,
I don't know if that's the best answer
(27:26):
is to have Google, glasses and that you
see somebody walking in and you then suddenly
you,
you have the name on your on your
Google about the name of the guest you
said I walked in or something. But that
recognition
factor is so so crucial that you also
talk about. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I
I agree. You know, name recognition,
(27:46):
preferences,
etcetera. You know, everybody reacts to that. The
experiences, etcetera, for sure. Everybody talks about experiences
and so on. It's not even a trend
anymore. That's kind of already passe. What's the
next thing? You know? Next thing what's the
next thing in hospitality?
Of course,
when you look at the top hotels in
the world, right, they're not the standard brands
(28:08):
anymore. There's not four c's. They're still very
good hotels, the Ritz Carlton's, Four Seasons, etcetera.
They all,
you know,
special hotels
that create this incredible environment.
But there's there's one off, right, or maybe
two or they maybe have three hotels.
And they they that's what really people look
for, and they're really willing to pay substantial
(28:31):
amount of money,
for that. Right? So
the the the beautiful thing about starting a
new brand, I mean,
you could argue,
do we really need a new brand? Yes.
No. You know? I think,
yeah. Why not? Right?
Because you can start from from scratch. You
can find a white space.
(28:52):
You have no legacy.
You really can think out of the box,
you know, like, you know, the check-in, check
out.
The other pinpoint is is always,
the check-in check-in time and check out time.
Right? So and that's another thing of my
pet peeves is,
you know, twenty four hour check-in. Right? You
you you buy the room technically,
(29:13):
you should really buy a room for twenty
four hours. Right? Because,
if you sometimes you pay for a room,
and it's only for nine hours as an
example.
And then
you get told, oh, if you want to
extend by three hours, you have to pay
50% of the fee. Yeah. So it's a
pain point. Right?
So why can't we think
and when we introduce it, introduce it with
(29:36):
the address, and I don't know if they
still have it, everybody told me, but it's
a problem because our housekeeper come at they
come at eight
They say, okay.
Then come let them come at eight, nine,
ten, eleven, twelve, etcetera.
Yeah.
The the the other good one, sorry to
jump on that one because I love that
one, is when you can only have breakfast
(29:57):
until twelve.
That was my thing I was gonna talk
about.
I took really the other day. I really
love that you stay you check into a
hotel and said, well, the the thing they
hit you with is the breakfast start from
06:30
until,
until, 09:30.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. But I'm
I came from Europe, and I have a
(30:17):
jet lag. I like to have my breakfast
at noon. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Sure. We
have a room service menu. It's gonna cost
you another $50.50
euro. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. No. Yeah.
I completely agree. The the chef has the
eggs in the the fridge. Eggs in the
open the fridge, take the two eggs, you
know, do the omelette. Right? So it doesn't
matter.
These are these are things that are, again,
(30:39):
you know, really entrenched in in in what
we
what we do.
And, you know, the famous,
back of the house. Right? When you look
at you you were into and you are,
obviously, still very much into design on how
much
money, on interest, etcetera.
We spend 90% we spend on looking at,
(31:02):
you know, the adjacencies
and restaurants and spa and spend.
And then
suddenly, in the back of the room says,
what about the back of the house? Number
one, we shouldn't call it back of the
house. It's the heart of the house. That's
number one.
You know? And we are designing
a guest journey. We all know that. Right?
(31:23):
The guest journey. But we're designing a colleague
journey. What's the colleague journey? And you normally
have the engines just next to the garbage
room. Right? Yep. That's a nice start of
the day. Yeah. When you have that. Right?
And then you have really nice
white shiny tiles
in the back. Right? So to make sure
(31:43):
that it looks like a hospital. And then
Yeah.
Particularly, the lighting is great because that really
gives you a headache in the morning
when you say, they couldn't have found something
more horrible in that light. Right?
And then we go into
the employee dining room, which the GM doesn't
even know where it is because he never
(32:04):
dined there. I'm just saying, I'm I'm I'm
I'm Yeah. Yeah. And there's no view of
a very employee dining room. No. No. No.
Please. Please. No. No. No. No. No view.
All day. We have an area with a
view. No. No. No. We don't want a
view. We want a a really dark, dingy
area
where,
they certainly won't have a good time. Right?
Yeah. Yeah. So so
I'm I'm just laughing, and we're laughing about
(32:26):
it. But, unfortunately,
unfortunately, that's what it is. Yes. There's some
really good examples. I I give you one
from Hayat, and I think we discussed that
in one of the podcasts. It's really Hyatt
in Zurich. Actually, their Brie dining room is
open to the guests. So it's actually a
restaurant.
So,
there's an outside entrance, and I think that's
(32:47):
Berne Coronel, which was, you know, you could
argue about some of these things, but really
very visionary gentleman.
And that's that was a a a pure
restaurant.
Or when I was with,
the alcohol group Fairmont in Hamburg,
where the heart of the house
was had the same standards
(33:08):
of the front. So the arrival experience
had a beautiful couch, a carpet,
etcetera.
The the kitchen,
they they they did multiple, measurable,
events in the kitchen
with guests. Right? So guests love kitchens. Right?
So
and it's really a way to keep your
kitchen clean,
(33:30):
etcetera. So these are all the things that
you have the opportunity to do something like
this if you create a new brand.
Very good. I I I think, this is
how we have to change. I think we're
hitting all the things, and I I my
final things would be that how we promote
the hotels.
I I really love those, those online brochures
(33:51):
where you have a empty room. We only
show a bed. And maybe at the best,
they show a picture from the balcony, you
see a empty beach. Or then you have
a
event area, which is completely empty. So you're
really getting the impression that's gonna be a
lot of fun to stay in that place.
Yeah. Yeah. No. I agree. Or, you know,
I mean,
companies are moving a little bit away from
(34:12):
it, or you have a building. Right? So
you see the the the the building.
So Yeah. Does it really attract you to
go and stay there?
Obviously, a lot of what we call the
lifestyle brands have moved into,
that direction that it's all about these experiences
on Yes. Targeting maybe a a little bit
of a younger generation. But you know what?
(34:33):
I I like to stay in those hotels
myself. You know, I do like traditional hotels
also, but I like the blend of it.
Right? So
so,
so so so so
it's it's really some people,
I think, are embracing.
And, you know, I was at the conference
just recently, and we were talking about AI
(34:54):
and,
you know, the danger of AI. I said,
guys, if we don't embrace it,
you're gonna be lost. You're gonna be finished.
Right? I remember,
again, ten, fifteen, twenty years ago when the
OTAs came came online. Right? And
I was, at the time with Fritz Carlton,
and they say, oh, no. It OTAs. We
don't do that kind of business. Right? We
(35:15):
we have our business and so on. They
had to quickly catch up eventually.
But, again, we're a couple of years late.
You know? So why are we always
very late to embrace these new technologies?
I don't know.
But, I certainly intend to embrace them with
the new brands that we're creating. Yeah. But,
also, like,
(35:36):
the choice of restaurants where usually when people
stay in the hotel, they they walk around
the neighborhood to see what's available there. And
if they want to order from one of
those restaurants to eat in in the in
the hotel, they stay. That has been absolutely
impossibility. I think there are some hotels that
have been taking this on board that you
have Yeah. You have an option to to
order from one of your Yes. Your the
(35:56):
partners and so on. Usually, what reason was
that, no. You know, we cannot guarantee the
food is,
could be some,
that is not the quality quality is not
there, and we can guarantee in case you
can in case you get ill in the
hotel and so on, but that's kind of
nonsense in my opinion. Yeah. Yeah. No. Completely
agree. Yeah. I mean, the FNB is always
a a subject on its own, right, when
(36:18):
you think about it. Right? So Yeah.
Again,
when you look at,
we we're doing a project in Egypt where
we are going to develop a concept of,
European style hotels where
it's more or less a better than breakfast,
but the operator actually has a restaurant, but
the restaurant is only a hundred meters away
from the hotel.
(36:39):
So instead of putting the restaurant in the
hotel where people say, I don't wanna,
you know, eat in a hotel restaurant,
but,
you know, even letting them walk across the
street to a independently
supposedly independent restaurant,
makes a whole difference. Right? So so,
(37:00):
again, f and b is super interesting
what is happening nowadays in the But remember,
it's in Bali.
Bali Hai. Telaganaga.
Yeah. The Chinese restaurant. Right? You have to
walk there. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. And then that was, that was
a good example, and that worked really,
very nicely.
Yeah. So little bit back to the to
(37:22):
the school. I mean, just to
have a feel of,
what qualities do you look for in students
that suggest they have the potential to become
impactful leaders in in global hospitality?
Out of those MBA students,
there are some things that you're you're paying
attention to in your discussions with them? Yeah.
I think, you know, it's it's like always.
(37:43):
Right? You got 33 students. You got the
the,
you know, curiosity
is one. Right?
And,
emotional intelligence, right,
is the probably the other one.
It's also,
communications
skills.
Yeah. You know, that's where
(38:05):
some of the students stood out. Right? So
the curiosity to say,
you know, to be with it to be
in the room. Right? So I I told
the school asking me, do they have to
come or not come? I said, you know,
honestly,
if they don't wanna come,
be my guest, they don't have to come.
They have to come for the, you know,
the exams, etcetera. But if they have no
(38:27):
interest coming, I certainly
won't,
won't push for them. I mean, to come.
And then you see who sits in the
back, who sits in the front, etcetera.
I say, as long as you don't disturb
the class, I don't have a problem.
You know? If you're late, you just wait
until the break, and then you come in.
Right? So
so so I think the the curiosity,
I think, is is is one.
(38:49):
The engagement,
you know, you could see if somebody is
really engaged. Right?
And,
you know, it's a whole week of classes,
etcetera, and so on. So it's not that's
why I tried to break out the classes
pretty pretty
on on the slow bites, really.
But that curiosity and then the the the
engagement. Right? And then
(39:11):
finally, like I said, communication skills,
and that emotional intelligence
to be able to engage with somebody.
And
I'm not saying show the amount of respect,
but, you know,
work with your colleagues
and respect them, work with me on the
line, etcetera, and be able to align.
(39:34):
That that's where the great leaders are gonna
come from. Right? So Yeah. Especially
nowadays. And that's why it was interesting to
see that comparison between Jack Welch and Ubaid
Jolley.
And I I actually I never met Jack
Welch, but I had the great pleasure to
meet Tubel when he was with, Radisson.
And he always stroked me as a, you
(39:54):
know, as as an interesting character, as somebody
I can relate to. And then I read
his book, and I said, this is just
a great book. Right?
It's,
business from the heart. Right? So
how he repositioned Best Buy, really, and then
his own career and how the way the
way he changed
his leadership style from the beginning,
(40:16):
to to where he ended up with, Best
Buy and was super successful there. You know?
And I'm not saying that Jack Welsh was
not successful. This time, he was. But,
I'm certainly more Uber Jolly type. Right? So
so
so that's that's the
that's what I say. And then there were
a few students which I thought it's such
(40:37):
a shame
that they don't take this opportunity,
to really do something with it, you know,
Because, you know, I didn't see them engaged,
for whatever reasons. I don't know. Maybe they
had personal issues or they they were bored
or whatever it is.
But
you're in the you're in such a great
(40:57):
school.
You know? You have the opportunity
to network,
etcetera,
and you don't take the opportunity.
For me, it's a lost opportunity for them.
It's not for me, but for them. Right?
So Absolutely.
That's unfortunately what it is. Yeah. How about
then,
how do you mentor those students to prepare
them for the pressure and complexities
(41:19):
of executive roles? Because that's been quite,
lonely on the top, quite windy.
Yeah. No. No. True.
Quite, hot in The Middle
East. 50 degrees.
But, yeah, I mean, it's a journey. You
know? So so
I I showed them a little bit my
journey,
(41:39):
on on the learnings from the journey. You
know? So I took, you know, from the
from the humble beginnings to the the next
steps and
where, also, I made mistakes. So I said,
look. I've made mistakes. Right? Maybe I shouldn't
have done that, but I never looked back
because I said, okay. Look forward. Right?
One of the the points I told them,
you know, find mentors. Find one or two
(42:01):
good mentors that you you
obviously, we're talking about,
David. Is this David? The
the the gentleman you saw in Berlin? Or
David Kong. David Kong. I think I met
him also once. But, you know, in my
life, I had also a couple of, you
know, great mentors that helped me professionally,
but also,
personally. Right? So
(42:23):
and,
you
you you know, and don't
you know? So so I think I said
that that really helps if you have mentorship.
And actually quite interesting,
in my company now,
they have
engaged some coaches for us, right,
to coach us.
You you would think, you know, by now,
(42:45):
there's nothing else I can learn. Right? But
I honestly, I sat with him, and that
that was not my attitude. I said, wait.
This is, like, fantastic.
I think some of my colleagues said said
or were thinking or I was talking to
the coach.
They say, yeah. The reaction was a little
bit, I don't really need that. I know
what I'm doing. I'm not gonna change, etcetera.
I took a different little bit a different
(43:05):
approach. I said, look.
I'm eager to learn, and I'm eager to
change. And then we decided on three, four
things that we want to do different.
One is,
you know, one of the things I do
a little bit too much is work in
my world, my silo, and, you know,
we're doing our thing. Don't think of the
(43:26):
environment.
So to engage much more with my colleagues
in the different verticals. Right? So I say,
yeah. That's a good point. So I started
really actually meeting with them.
And they said, oh, that's interesting.
And then they they enjoyed it too. Right?
I learned from their business,
and then out of the meeting, things came
up. So so that was number one. Number
(43:47):
two,
I say sometimes I do too much from
the heart. Right? So this one is obviously
from the heart because we have a a
nice chat.
But when I do a presentation,
I need to prepare better, right, to be
ready
to prepare
and,
you know, on on
do put my put a point across. Right?
(44:09):
So Yeah.
Versus talking from the guts and the heart,
etcetera, and then you forget 20%.
And
maybe they figure, oh, he's very genuine in
in what he's saying, but, you know, what's
his point? Right? So Exactly. I I really
prepared really well for
I was on a on a panel, you
know, one of these panels,
(44:29):
in, and I I I thought, oh, okay.
That really helped me
to do a better job, really, because I
I was really well prepared. I had my
entry, my exit, my talking points, etcetera.
And I didn't write it down, etcetera,
but I felt I was really ready. Right?
So You you went through it mentally. Yes.
(44:50):
Yes. So there's a couple of things like
this that,
that's that's I really picked up nicely. So
so
the point is
you you really
you always have to, challenge yourself, always learn,
etcetera.
And you you should be afraid to have,
you know, against somebody tells
(45:11):
to tell you, you know, how how how
you can improve.
My my my point was,
you know, Tiger Woods. Right? I mean, Tiger
Woods had a coach.
He had coaches, you know, the the the
the health coach, etcetera, but
golf coaches, right, you would think that he
knows how to play golf. Right? Why does
(45:31):
he need a coach? Or, like, or or,
like, you have,
say, Roger Federer. Right? He knows how to
play tennis. Why does he need a coach?
Right? I mean, he was, top of his
game.
So even if you are on the top
of your game,
I still think you need a a a
strong coach. Right? Absolutely. Yeah.
So, Mark, this has been a great conversation,
(45:53):
and, we touched a number of things and,
but but your experience,
at,
at Lausanne.
And then of course,
it was interesting to have you exchange few
ideas on this, about what we, how, what
we have to learn because we're living, we're
coming from a generation, unlike the current generation
have different needs and how we have to
(46:14):
also
change. But my question mark to you is
that what legacy or long term impact do
you hope to leave through your engagement
with the next generation in Lausanne?
Yeah. I think,
it's it's not so much about leaving a
legacy. I think,
leaving a legacy is pretty,
egoistic.
You know? Do you think of yourself, you
(46:35):
know, or people are going to think that
I'm a great guy, etcetera. I mean,
I hope that people some people will come
when I die.
A few people will come to the church.
Right?
But it was his name again. Yeah.
It's okay. Flip, you know, flip through. He's
gone. Right? He was he was okay.
No. The the so it's it's not so
(46:57):
much the legacy part. Right?
It's it's it's really
one of the things I really wanna do
is is try to get as many people
into the business.
Yes. And because I think it's a great
business,
and sometimes people don't realize
the the incredible lives that you can have
(47:18):
in that business. Right? So so I think
that's
that's certainly
one.
The the the second part is also,
you know, it's it's kind of giving back.
I mean, it's a little bit cliche
that you you you kind of learned a
lot of things. Why not give back? I
mean, you can write the book, which I
thought about, but
just, it's a little work to write a
(47:39):
book, and then so, eventually, maybe I'll write
a book.
So so, hopefully, you can you can
buy me or no. I'll give it to
you for free on a signage. Right? So
but, Yeah. And I'll promote it. Yeah. Yeah.
You can promote it. Exactly. Exactly. Now a
book is a good one. Right? It's always
good. But, you know, what kind of book
are you gonna write? Right? So but, anyway,
(48:00):
so so that's the that's the the other
part. But,
the the the other one, it's really a
selfish reason is that I
thoroughly enjoyed
doing it. I I it was great. You
know, being back in school, I was in
a studio.
And I must tell you, Lausanne is like
a country club. Right? So went to the
gym every morning, went for a walk, you
(48:22):
know, at the the swimming pool, all this
great food.
I said, hey. This is, like, great. Right?
And so so I I
it was really a little bit of a
selfish thing that I I really enjoyed it,
and I enjoyed every day that,
you know, I I I I was doing
my courses, etcetera.
(48:43):
And then I I I certainly enjoyed
some of the two students coming back to
me and say, you know, thank you very
much.
They called me doctor. Then I said, no.
Don't don't call me doctor. I'm not a
doctor.
I said, I I certainly don't have a
PhD,
but, you know, it was really nice to
see how they appreciated it.
(49:04):
Not every not each one came to see
me. But, you know,
a lot of them, and they sent me
a nice, note on LinkedIn
or sent me a nice,
email.
You know, a gentleman wants to have a
follow-up call because he's dropping a result, agrees,
and he wanted to have my feedback, etcetera.
So
it's super rewarding
to to do that. Right? So,
(49:27):
I certainly will send you an invitation for
my calls next year. Hopefully, you can also,
you know, join.
That that that would be certainly great.
Yeah. That would be an honor. So thanks,
Mark. So well, I think we have had
a very good discussion. So thanks very much,
Mark, for
joining this very
important,
(49:48):
episode today about education
and and also for us
who are from the analog period that what
we how we have to change.
So,
with this,
episode, I just want to say thank you
very much for your fantastic insight.
Thank you. Thank you, Sam.
Look forward to next one.
Thank you for tuning in to The Social
(50:09):
Hotelier. If you enjoyed this episode that I
had the discussion with conversation with Mark, please
take a moment to leave us a review
on, Apple Podcasts,
and give it a thumbs up or even
don't forget to hit the subscribe button to
stay updated. Now, if you leave the review
on on the podcast, you have to use
your mobile device when you go to Apple
podcast and just write what you thought about
it and what you liked about it are
(50:31):
are the things that you you have wanted
to hear more because that gives me an
inspiration to create another episode
with Mark. So we have an incredible lineup
of guests coming your way in the future.
So stay tuned for more thought provoking conversations.
Until next time, take care and keep exploring.
Hi, everyone. Welcome back to the Social Hotelier
podcast with me, Sam Erik Ruttman.
Feedspot has selected as one of the top
20 hotel pot podcasts on the web, And
this recognition
reinforces the value of conscious dialogue in hospitality,
conversation that matter with people who care about
the impact.
Grateful to
(00:24):
the inspiring thought leaders who have joined me
over the years and to all of you
who have tuned in. So I have a
thought leader with me for this episode, and
that's Mark Nardin, who has been with me
several times. Mark is a chief executive officer
of Abu Dhabi based Modern Hospitality. So welcome,
Mark, and thanks for joining today. Thank you,
Sam. Great to be invited again on your
(00:45):
podcast. I think, you know, it's a great
activity, and I always love the interaction with
you. We go back so many, many years,
and, let's try to make it interesting.
Yeah.
Very good. So,
first of all, I think for our audience
to get some background,
what motivated you to return to
(01:05):
Ecole Hotelier hospitality business school as a guest
lecturer, and how does it and how does
it feel stepping back into the classroom from
a lens of a seasoned executive?
Actually, that was, really the most exciting
week of of the year for me. You
know? I was really looking forward to it.
I mean, I I I forgot actually when
I graduated, so I had to to dig
(01:27):
out my diploma
somewhere in my boxes. And then I found
out that,
you know, I I graduated forty three years
ago. You know? So you figure out my
age.
But,
it's absolutely delightful
to go back to a school where you
you went to so many years back. I
mean, I I went to visit a few
times, and I always enjoyed
(01:49):
speaking to the students and talking and but
this time was really,
a full week with,
33 MBA students.
And,
you know, two things I was,
number one, excited to be back at the
school. The second thing, I was actually quite
nervous. Right? I wanted to make sure that,
I was going to go do a good
job. And when you when you start something
(02:11):
totally new, and I always like to challenge
myself,
it's exciting, but, you you're a little bit
nervous also. You know? So
and for me, why go back?
You know, obviously, I had
many, many years of careers, and our careers
cross, over the years. Also, I remember when
we were in Bali together.
And, for me, it was really trying to
(02:32):
give back really to the young generation
and see if they would be interested
to to hear a little bit about,
about hospitality.
Yeah. And that's very good, I mean, that
you're doing that. And I I like the
idea that,
to even it I mean, we're both about
same age, that we're both challenging ourselves
(02:53):
to learn. And when you're a lecturer, you
actually are challenging yourself because you have to
kind of think,
how you can make the,
think about,
their spending.
I don't know how many hours they spent
with you. That that that time is this
never come back to them. So it has
to be make them worthwhile that they sat
for those lectures and the conversations. So and
(03:14):
that's how I always feel when I have
to do things in front of people that
that,
I I'm I'm
that's a time that I'm with them that
has to be worthwhile to them. And I'm
grateful if I get feedback that it worked
out, and I'm, of course,
have to learn from there if I have
to kind of learn something else. So I
I can I can appreciate that nervousness that
you go through because I would have exactly
(03:35):
the same?
But, you know, looking at your, your background,
you know, we we both have worked internationally
for years. How do you decide which real
world experience
to share with students to both inspire and
and to educate? Because you have a lot
of things you can,
dig into.
Sure. Sure. I mean,
we got so many stories, right, from
(03:56):
from, early starts to,
you know, living in countries like, you know,
in Africa, back to Europe, in Asia, etcetera,
etcetera. You know? So,
you know, I I I I was thinking,
when I was developing the course, you know,
what what is really the benefit that I
can bring to the table. Right? So because
in today's age, really,
(04:18):
with AI and,
you know, the Internet, etcetera,
I I I think the whole education process
is really changing, and we'll have to rethink.
And I'm sure even all the universities
and schools are rethinking,
this new age. Right? So I I I
was thinking, what what can I really bring
to the table? And I said, look here.
(04:39):
I can what I can bring to the
table is really my real time experiences
because it's not,
textbook. Right? It's it's really what I went
through and my experiences on the good, on
the bad, what I would have done differently,
etcetera, etcetera.
And the other part is that,
obviously, over the years, I've, grown my network
(05:01):
like you. You know, people that were, humble
beginnings are now in great positions.
And,
I was,
really very excited,
to hear that, they were very willing to
dial in. You know? So for I'll give
a couple examples. I had Simon Kassen.
He's currently the president of, Gorintia.
(05:21):
He was the president of Four Seasons. And
I called him up and I said, Simon,
I know you're a busy man.
Would you be willing to dial in and
be a judge for,
for,
the students because they had to develop a
project? And then I had another frown. He
said, yes. Absolutely.
You know, I'll do it. And that's three
hour three hours of his time, of his
valuable time.
(05:43):
Another example is, Stefan Lesser. He's currently CEO
in,
in Saudi. He was CEO of Langham. He
was CEO of Jumeirah, etcetera.
Again, you know, I think they're sharing the
same spirit that I have is that it
is our responsibility
as senior leaders
to give back to these young stew students
(06:04):
and also
excite them about the business. Right? So because,
I think the hospitality business,
for me, or even my wife asking me,
would you would you have done something different
if today,
you you you had a choice. Right? Now,
at that time, we didn't have that many
choices because you became a doctor, an engineer,
(06:26):
a hotelier, and then we did our career,
etcetera.
But today, there's much more choices. But I
told her that, no, I would have never
changed because
I think,
our business is incredibly exciting,
and it's it's it's,
it's so so so varied. Right? I think.
(06:47):
And that's also the spirit that I wanted
to share with, the students, you know, to
encourage them to really try hospitality.
Very good. So but the those students are
coming from a hospitality background because it's held
obviously at the that business school, or are
there are there some others who are coming
from a different background but want to step
into this, industry just to understand the kind
(07:09):
of profile
of of the students that you have. Yeah.
I I I think, you know, the hotel
school has changed really from my time,
you know, forty three years ago. The the
hotel school in Lausanne was a true hotel
school. You learned how to serve. You learned
how to cook. You looked how
to, you know, the good old style, and
eventually, you looked at management, etcetera, etcetera. But
(07:30):
now it's a real business school. Right? But
I think
it's a great school. And when you look
at it, unfortunately,
potentially, I think it's up at 30 or
35%
of the students only stay in hospitality.
Yeah. Most of them go in different branch,
which is fine. Right? But,
it shows that hospitality
teaches them,
(07:52):
to be well rounded,
individuals. Right? So you have a lot of
banks, wealth management. You have, obviously, consultancies,
and so on. We're looking,
for these students
because they they have a well rounded background.
I mean, I had 33 students,
all very polite,
well dressed,
very
(08:12):
versatile,
very eager to learn. I I was I
was very impressed by by the students, I
must say.
Very good. Yeah. I mean, this is,
I was I I one of the things
I was interested to learn that
consider the how you how when you were
a student yourself when you graduated forty three
years ago, how to today's
(08:33):
students differ from the from,
your your peers and so on.
But I think you answered the question now
because they're coming from a different background and
so on. Yeah. But it was nice also
to see the different nationalities. You know? I
had students from, obviously,
Europe,
quite a few Swiss, but French and,
(08:53):
German. I had, a few students from China,
India,
Middle East,
you know, Africa. It was it was great
to have this
this,
33
students, individuals,
different backgrounds
in one room
and,
pretty much the same age. You know? They
were all,
(09:14):
MBA students also. They had gone for four
years of BA.
But,
and I I always say you learn so
much, right,
from the students as much as you give
them.
You will also learn from them for sure.
Yeah. Yeah.
So in what way have the questions and
(09:34):
insights from the students challenged or reshaped your
own thinking as a leader? Because I think
you must have picked up some ideas from
this time from that intensive time you were
as a lecturer.
Yes. You know, because,
the the the course was also based on
on group work. Right? So, you know, one
thing that they had to learn is, you
(09:55):
know, work under pressure, work under deadline, deliverables,
work as a group,
which is, I think, an import important learning
over and above the subject. Right? So for
me, that was really part,
they were assigned,
early on on the on the first day
to form groups and then to present the
(10:16):
project and,
present that project to a shark tank. You
know, that's where Simon Kacen was and Stefan,
etcetera.
So, obviously,
what impressed me, what I learned is really,
how creative they could be and how quickly
they could really bring things to the table,
(10:38):
and as a group,
how well they work together. Right? So and
some groups work better, some maybe not as
well, etcetera.
But,
that was that was certainly
a big learning.
Mhmm. Fantastic.
Yeah. So, just thinking about
(10:59):
what what, how do you bridge the gap
between academic theories and the realities of high
level corporate decision making in your session? Or
is it or is it basically on, looking
at your experience rather than the academic theories?
Yeah. I think the the academic really you
know, obviously, I don't have a PhD.
I'm not, you know, I that's back to
(11:20):
what I thought at the beginning. You know?
How can I bring the best value for
the students? How can they learn the most?
Right? So
and,
it's it's through a process of developing, obviously,
a concept throughout,
the week, a luxury concept. And it could
be anything, really, from beginning from a to
zed.
And then,
(11:41):
inviting some key speakers, you know, that they
they could really speak to to people that
are on the ground. Right? So I had,
for example,
somebody from venture capital, right, to say, okay.
If you have a concept,
you know, you'd like to have funding, you
need to sell your concept. How are you
gonna do it? What are the key points,
(12:01):
you know, that you have to think of?
As an example. Right? So then
I had some,
some of, my,
friends and contacts in the branding industry. You
know? How how important is branding,
for your concept, the right branding, the right
positioning,
etcetera.
Human capital. Right? How do you develop,
(12:22):
a wing winning organization?
A dear friend of mine who wrote a
book, who used to work with me,
also
agreed
to join, and it was a great session
about creating
a culture,
you know, a vision for the company
and also making sure that their vision comes
true.
And then we we also looked at leadership
(12:43):
styles. You know? So so I did a
comparison
between
between,
two two senior leaders, Jack Welsh, you know,
who's we all know his leadership style,
and then Hubert Jolly,
who really,
preaches that, you know, success comes through the
(13:03):
people. Right? The culture and the people, etcetera.
And they said, where is your leadership side?
You know? Where do you see yourselves? You
know? So so that's the learning bit versus
being textbook. And I use and I myself
use ChatGPT. I said, what what do you
want me to do to write something,
if I can get it? But I I
(13:24):
admit that I had it from ChatGPT. I
said, this is what it is. Now let's
discuss it and and so on. Right? So
so for me,
again, the biggest learning came,
and that's the students. That's the feedback I
got from them also. You know? They really
enjoyed the session,
just because it's it was so true to
life,
(13:44):
and,
I could really tell him true examples
of,
of of, my experiences. So then one session
was also about the
the 10 learnings that I had from my
life. Right? So
we we went through a bit of my
whole career,
and, you know, one is continuous learning. Like,
what you do, what I do, I was,
(14:07):
for that to challenge myself. You know? So,
you know, doing an executive MBA, doing online
courses,
starting to actually teach, etcetera. That's all part
of it. Right? So so
and I thought that that really resonated with
them
a lot. So it's it was really hands
on versus academic.
(14:29):
Then I backed it up, obviously, by theories,
etcetera. But
but,
that was really the concept,
of the whole, teaching.
Okay. So when you spoke about your professional
journey, was there any particular,
theme or topic that resonated most with the
students that actually created conversations and and so
(14:49):
on? If you can speak about that, just
to get the feel of,
what what were the,
the reaction from the students during that time.
Yeah. I mean, they were there was a
lot of,
I must really say,
they they they came quite a few students
came to me and asked for some advice
also.
And, obviously,
(15:09):
some had some ideas, concepts in mind. I
wanted to to get my feedback.
A lot of them were asking, you know,
what do I do
for my next step. Right? So
and that's back to,
what I mentioned earlier, you know, in my
time. I remember my time. I mean, I
loved hospitality. I wanted to travel. I like
(15:31):
people. I like the whole serving bit, and
that was my life. Right? That's the way
I saw it. I I really wanted to
travel the world. I wanted to meet people,
understand different cultures that that was just and
I I somehow
I I'm a a type of person that
likes to serve. You know? I'm the first
one to open a door. It's not because
(15:51):
that's what it is. Right? So you can
see an old lady. I try to help
her. It's a trace of I mean I
mean, not everybody does that.
They should do it. But, anyway,
this is just inherent in me. Right? So
so that's why hospitality spoke to me, and
then we go into you know, went into
a career, you know, after attend school, management
(16:13):
training, assistant F and B F and B.
You know, it was never a question
of doing something totally different. At one stage,
I thought of maybe doing set up something
myself, etcetera. But,
I left, the entrepreneurship to my wife, and
I I did the the career. Where I
want to get to is, today, they have
so many choices,
(16:34):
and they are really confused.
I'm not I'm not saying everybody,
but they really need help.
And very often,
sometimes
the the the institution,
obviously, they try to help them,
but they need mentors. They need help, right,
in in their career path. And, honestly,
(16:55):
it's very difficult to do a health care
school and get your first job. You remember
your I don't know what your first job
was, but that was a management trainee, and
I made $500.
Right? So
it was it was what it was. I
don't I don't know what your first job
was. Oh, well, I had,
it was one of the most important steps
(17:16):
in my in my senior year was to
get as many interviews as possible when the
recruitment guys came in. And,
there's someone who came into the campus like
we both know, Ron Hilbert. Oh, yes. Of
course. Of course. Ron Hilbert. So he he
interviewed me,
and,
and I landed a job with Hyatt thanks
thanks to him. So it was a question
(17:38):
of,
what I want to do. I mean, I
I was I was talking with Sheraton. I
was talking with all the all the different
companies, but I think,
what inspired me at that time
to accept the offer from Hyatt even though
the,
understanding you started as a management trainee was
that I had,
I had a job earlier
(17:59):
as a trainee in in in US, and
the,
director of food and beverage had worked with
Hyatt. So I I was so fascinated about
their,
their,
thinking about, and the creativity.
And
later on, when I joined Hyatt, my my
first place to work was in Dallas,
and there was a
(18:19):
a great director of food and beverage. And
it was David Kong, who who was a
great hotelier.
And he just retired from his recently
from his position,
as a I think he worked with either
Choice Hotels or something. He was in the,
the president of the company. And we run
into each other. Can you imagine?
In in Berlin,
(18:40):
at,
run into each other after all these years,
and
I asked him, do you remember me? Because
I remember you very well. Yes. I remember
you, Sam. So it was kind of a
fun thing that then
so Hyatt was always always choice for me,
and I I never regret it. And I'm
always considered to be the so one one
of the as as Ron called us, one
of Ron's boys. You know? Yes. Yes. Actually,
(19:01):
he interviewed me. He didn't take me. So
that's why I joined.
And I always blamed him. He the second
choice, he he took me, and then I
went to Bali Bali Hyder. That's where we
went. Right? So but the the,
back to these these students. Right? When you
look at, you know, the spending, let's say,
I don't know, 200,000
(19:21):
US or Swiss francs in education,
etcetera, and then we what do we offer
them? Imagine trainee. Right? So,
it's it's it's tough,
and that's why I think we're losing quite
a few people to other businesses. Right? So,
but, again, there's there's so many choices
for them,
so it makes it, very difficult for them
(19:43):
to find their calling.
And I I always say, look. Whatever you
do, you have to be passionate about it.
And I I always tell the story about
my son and,
him wanting to do what I do. But,
after I put him in a month in
a in a hotel,
he realized
maybe that's not what I wanna do. And
he's now very successful doing
(20:04):
crowdfunding and VC, etcetera. So,
wonderful. He he found his passion. Right? So
that's what it is in life. Right? You
have to find your passion.
Even sometimes people find it a little later.
I was, very fortunate. I I found found
a passion immediately. Right? So
but I think,
that's one which leads a little bit to
(20:25):
another subject is really,
how we as an industry
have to change.
Now I would say we are we are
dinosaurs
the way we operate,
and I include myself in the dinosaur category
even though I think I'm a little bit
more forward thinking than some of my colleagues.
But when you look,
(20:46):
how we operate hotels now and how they
were operated before, there's really not that many
changes that we're doing. Right?
And,
you know, peep people change. We I see
a lot of the blame, the new generation.
They don't wanna stay. They they they they
they ask too many questions. And, you know,
(21:06):
there's there's some negativity
on the the younger generation
comparing to us, and we were
at least staying two years in a job
and, you know, doing all this. Right? So
my personal opinion is
I don't think it's helping us very much
to blame the generation. I think we have
to change
as an industry.
(21:27):
And I give you just one example, Ritz
Carlton,
many years ago, maybe ten, fifteen when I
was there.
We were so prescriptive
in
how
you do things. You know? Number one, culture,
which is great. Ladies and gentlemen, serving ladies
and gentlemen is wonderful. Right? But then it
became
(21:48):
what you have to wear, what you can't
wear, what you
you know, so descriptive
to put them really into a box. And
the famous SOPs.
You will you remember the SOPs, the famous
SOPs.
You will do that, and you won't do
that, and you can't do that. And you
serve from the rights. You know? You place
(22:11):
the plate from the right. Even though you're
just two guests talking, you disturb the guest
and put the plate from the right. You
know?
So
you you you can't do that
nowadays to these young people. Right? So
my philosophy on which is, launching a new
brand
is really to break all these molds and
think completely out of the box. Right? So
(22:31):
we're looking at, for example, facial recognition.
What are the big pinpoints in a hotel?
Check-in, check out. Right? We all know.
What's the reception? It's a barrier
between the employee or the colleague
and the guest.
No more no more desks. Right? And I
preached that fifteen or twenty years ago.
(22:52):
Today, it's it's kind of a norm. Okay.
No more test. Nobody says, wow. You know,
this is, like, crazy. This guy is, like,
so ingenious. How did he figure that out?
Right?
Yeah. But, seriously, fifteen years ago, people were
questioning, what do you mean no more test?
Where do we put the computers, etcetera?
And I now my my preaching is facial
recognition.
Yesterday, I came back from a trip. I
(23:15):
landed in Dubai,
you know, showed my face, opened my eyes,
and I was through. So why can't
you step into a hotel?
You know, you you we have all the
preferences,
all the information, the credit card, etcetera.
And then the colleagues can really focus on
the guests
(23:35):
versus being being behind a a desk, looking
at the screen,
no eye contact, etcetera. So I'm not preaching
that we should
remove the employee from the but make it
meaningful for the customers.
Yes. So I think we're diverging a little
bit there, but there's no harm to diverge.
Right?
So so so back to how do we
(23:57):
do we have to really deal with our
employees, the young employees that for
for example, also, they're much more conscious
about the the values
of the the the company. If I preach
that we are a green company and we're
doing all these great things and so on,
and then they look at the back and
(24:17):
say, they don't really care. It's just greenwashing.
And then you wonder why the employee or
the colleague leaves after six months. Right? So
they say, you you told me that you
were,
environment friendly,
company. You're doing all these great social things,
but you're not doing anything.
You know?
Or you're preaching
(24:38):
that you'd deal with all your colleagues with
respect, etcetera. But then I see
you know, I I I my leader just
shouted at me. Right?
How is that? And then you wonder why
they leave. Right? Yes. Yes. So so
so the the and then flexible flexible timing.
They wanna be flexible. You know? You can't
put them in a box. Right? So maybe
(24:59):
we should change the way we approach things
to say
flexibility.
What is really the outcome,
that you want to achieve in terms of
customer satisfaction? Right? What what is the outcome?
I'm not gonna tell you how to do
it.
I'm going to, you know, give you all
the tools. But at the end of the
day, it's up to
you to to really make sure that the
(25:21):
customer is happy.
And that's that's what they're looking for. They
wanna be part of the organization,
etcetera, but
more
less being told, but actually doing it and
feeling parts of the the success story. Right?
So Yeah. There's many different ways that we
can look at and that we have to
think differently
(25:42):
to really attract this new generation to the
hospitality.
Yeah. I mean, it's rightly so. I mean,
I remember those days of SOPs because I
wrote few,
myself. And and I that was the,
thing to do. But now,
still is in the hotels, as you mentioned,
is that we are so focused almost like
(26:03):
a silos about,
the hardware,
in the hotel
and then
the
all that things. And,
and then we if we need to question
ourself, well, what is what are the things
that the guest will
take back from that stay?
Yeah. Are they gonna know are they gonna
(26:23):
know that, all the hardware that we are
so proud of, or is it something else?
And, usually, the answer is that it's experience
that they walk away with. Yeah. So how
can we now create that,
an experience that that is in line of
what, those
guests who are coming to the hotel
are expecting?
And so they're not gonna look at the
the,
the
(26:44):
the brand of of,
the hardware necessarily or something that's in the
back of the house. They're looking for entirely
different. I think the the
the way of thinking from from the start
would need the experience based. And I I
also like the what you're talking about is
that the the the facial recognition is that,
there's a famous thing I I was talking,
(27:05):
had one of one guest on my podcast,
Sylvia de Chu Chuzio, I think her
if I pronounce her name, she talks to
that, you have only seven seconds to make
an impact. You know, it's the
and and I think the history would be
that's those second seven seconds can make a
huge difference. And,
technology is here. I mean,
I don't know if that's the best answer
(27:26):
is to have Google, glasses and that you
see somebody walking in and you then suddenly
you,
you have the name on your on your
Google about the name of the guest you
said I walked in or something. But that
recognition
factor is so so crucial that you also
talk about. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I
I agree. You know, name recognition,
(27:46):
preferences,
etcetera. You know, everybody reacts to that. The
experiences, etcetera, for sure. Everybody talks about experiences
and so on. It's not even a trend
anymore. That's kind of already passe. What's the
next thing? You know? Next thing what's the
next thing in hospitality?
Of course,
when you look at the top hotels in
the world, right, they're not the standard brands
(28:08):
anymore. There's not four c's. They're still very
good hotels, the Ritz Carlton's, Four Seasons, etcetera.
They all,
you know,
special hotels
that create this incredible environment.
But there's there's one off, right, or maybe
two or they maybe have three hotels.
And they they that's what really people look
for, and they're really willing to pay substantial
(28:31):
amount of money,
for that. Right? So
the the the beautiful thing about starting a
new brand, I mean,
you could argue,
do we really need a new brand? Yes.
No. You know? I think,
yeah. Why not? Right?
Because you can start from from scratch. You
can find a white space.
(28:52):
You have no legacy.
You really can think out of the box,
you know, like, you know, the check-in, check
out.
The other pinpoint is is always,
the check-in check-in time and check out time.
Right? So and that's another thing of my
pet peeves is,
you know, twenty four hour check-in. Right? You
you you buy the room technically,
(29:13):
you should really buy a room for twenty
four hours. Right? Because,
if you sometimes you pay for a room,
and it's only for nine hours as an
example.
And then
you get told, oh, if you want to
extend by three hours, you have to pay
50% of the fee. Yeah. So it's a
pain point. Right?
So why can't we think
and when we introduce it, introduce it with
(29:36):
the address, and I don't know if they
still have it, everybody told me, but it's
a problem because our housekeeper come at they
come at eight
They say, okay.
Then come let them come at eight, nine,
ten, eleven, twelve, etcetera.
Yeah.
The the the other good one, sorry to
jump on that one because I love that
one, is when you can only have breakfast
(29:57):
until twelve.
That was my thing I was gonna talk
about.
I took really the other day. I really
love that you stay you check into a
hotel and said, well, the the thing they
hit you with is the breakfast start from
06:30
until,
until, 09:30.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. But I'm
I came from Europe, and I have a
(30:17):
jet lag. I like to have my breakfast
at noon. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Sure. We
have a room service menu. It's gonna cost
you another $50.50
euro. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. No. Yeah.
I completely agree. The the chef has the
eggs in the the fridge. Eggs in the
open the fridge, take the two eggs, you
know, do the omelette. Right? So it doesn't
matter.
These are these are things that are, again,
(30:39):
you know, really entrenched in in in what
we
what we do.
And, you know, the famous,
back of the house. Right? When you look
at you you were into and you are,
obviously, still very much into design on how
much
money, on interest, etcetera.
We spend 90% we spend on looking at,
(31:02):
you know, the adjacencies
and restaurants and spa and spend.
And then
suddenly, in the back of the room says,
what about the back of the house? Number
one, we shouldn't call it back of the
house. It's the heart of the house. That's
number one.
You know? And we are designing
a guest journey. We all know that. Right?
(31:23):
The guest journey. But we're designing a colleague
journey. What's the colleague journey? And you normally
have the engines just next to the garbage
room. Right? Yep. That's a nice start of
the day. Yeah. When you have that. Right?
And then you have really nice
white shiny tiles
in the back. Right? So to make sure
(31:43):
that it looks like a hospital. And then
Yeah.
Particularly, the lighting is great because that really
gives you a headache in the morning
when you say, they couldn't have found something
more horrible in that light. Right?
And then we go into
the employee dining room, which the GM doesn't
even know where it is because he never
(32:04):
dined there. I'm just saying, I'm I'm I'm
I'm Yeah. Yeah. And there's no view of
a very employee dining room. No. No. No.
Please. Please. No. No. No. No. No view.
All day. We have an area with a
view. No. No. No. We don't want a
view. We want a a really dark, dingy
area
where,
they certainly won't have a good time. Right?
Yeah. Yeah. So so
I'm I'm just laughing, and we're laughing about
(32:26):
it. But, unfortunately,
unfortunately, that's what it is. Yes. There's some
really good examples. I I give you one
from Hayat, and I think we discussed that
in one of the podcasts. It's really Hyatt
in Zurich. Actually, their Brie dining room is
open to the guests. So it's actually a
restaurant.
So,
there's an outside entrance, and I think that's
(32:47):
Berne Coronel, which was, you know, you could
argue about some of these things, but really
very visionary gentleman.
And that's that was a a a pure
restaurant.
Or when I was with,
the alcohol group Fairmont in Hamburg,
where the heart of the house
was had the same standards
(33:08):
of the front. So the arrival experience
had a beautiful couch, a carpet,
etcetera.
The the kitchen,
they they they did multiple, measurable,
events in the kitchen
with guests. Right? So guests love kitchens. Right?
So
and it's really a way to keep your
kitchen clean,
(33:30):
etcetera. So these are all the things that
you have the opportunity to do something like
this if you create a new brand.
Very good. I I I think, this is
how we have to change. I think we're
hitting all the things, and I I my
final things would be that how we promote
the hotels.
I I really love those, those online brochures
(33:51):
where you have a empty room. We only
show a bed. And maybe at the best,
they show a picture from the balcony, you
see a empty beach. Or then you have
a
event area, which is completely empty. So you're
really getting the impression that's gonna be a
lot of fun to stay in that place.
Yeah. Yeah. No. I agree. Or, you know,
I mean,
companies are moving a little bit away from
(34:12):
it, or you have a building. Right? So
you see the the the the building.
So Yeah. Does it really attract you to
go and stay there?
Obviously, a lot of what we call the
lifestyle brands have moved into,
that direction that it's all about these experiences
on Yes. Targeting maybe a a little bit
of a younger generation. But you know what?
(34:33):
I I like to stay in those hotels
myself. You know, I do like traditional hotels
also, but I like the blend of it.
Right? So
so,
so so so so
it's it's really some people,
I think, are embracing.
And, you know, I was at the conference
just recently, and we were talking about AI
(34:54):
and,
you know, the danger of AI. I said,
guys, if we don't embrace it,
you're gonna be lost. You're gonna be finished.
Right? I remember,
again, ten, fifteen, twenty years ago when the
OTAs came came online. Right? And
I was, at the time with Fritz Carlton,
and they say, oh, no. It OTAs. We
don't do that kind of business. Right? We
(35:15):
we have our business and so on. They
had to quickly catch up eventually.
But, again, we're a couple of years late.
You know? So why are we always
very late to embrace these new technologies?
I don't know.
But, I certainly intend to embrace them with
the new brands that we're creating. Yeah. But,
also, like,
(35:36):
the choice of restaurants where usually when people
stay in the hotel, they they walk around
the neighborhood to see what's available there. And
if they want to order from one of
those restaurants to eat in in the in
the hotel, they stay. That has been absolutely
impossibility. I think there are some hotels that
have been taking this on board that you
have Yeah. You have an option to to
order from one of your Yes. Your the
(35:56):
partners and so on. Usually, what reason was
that, no. You know, we cannot guarantee the
food is,
could be some,
that is not the quality quality is not
there, and we can guarantee in case you
can in case you get ill in the
hotel and so on, but that's kind of
nonsense in my opinion. Yeah. Yeah. No. Completely
agree. Yeah. I mean, the FNB is always
a a subject on its own, right, when
(36:18):
you think about it. Right? So Yeah.
Again,
when you look at,
we we're doing a project in Egypt where
we are going to develop a concept of,
European style hotels where
it's more or less a better than breakfast,
but the operator actually has a restaurant, but
the restaurant is only a hundred meters away
from the hotel.
(36:39):
So instead of putting the restaurant in the
hotel where people say, I don't wanna,
you know, eat in a hotel restaurant,
but,
you know, even letting them walk across the
street to a independently
supposedly independent restaurant,
makes a whole difference. Right? So so,
(37:00):
again, f and b is super interesting
what is happening nowadays in the But remember,
it's in Bali.
Bali Hai. Telaganaga.
Yeah. The Chinese restaurant. Right? You have to
walk there. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. And then that was, that was
a good example, and that worked really,
very nicely.
Yeah. So little bit back to the to
(37:22):
the school. I mean, just to
have a feel of,
what qualities do you look for in students
that suggest they have the potential to become
impactful leaders in in global hospitality?
Out of those MBA students,
there are some things that you're you're paying
attention to in your discussions with them? Yeah.
I think, you know, it's it's like always.
(37:43):
Right? You got 33 students. You got the
the,
you know, curiosity
is one. Right?
And,
emotional intelligence, right,
is the probably the other one.
It's also,
communications
skills.
Yeah. You know, that's where
(38:05):
some of the students stood out. Right? So
the curiosity to say,
you know, to be with it to be
in the room. Right? So I I told
the school asking me, do they have to
come or not come? I said, you know,
honestly,
if they don't wanna come,
be my guest, they don't have to come.
They have to come for the, you know,
the exams, etcetera. But if they have no
(38:27):
interest coming, I certainly
won't,
won't push for them. I mean, to come.
And then you see who sits in the
back, who sits in the front, etcetera.
I say, as long as you don't disturb
the class, I don't have a problem.
You know? If you're late, you just wait
until the break, and then you come in.
Right? So
so so I think the the curiosity,
I think, is is is one.
(38:49):
The engagement,
you know, you could see if somebody is
really engaged. Right?
And,
you know, it's a whole week of classes,
etcetera, and so on. So it's not that's
why I tried to break out the classes
pretty pretty
on on the slow bites, really.
But that curiosity and then the the the
engagement. Right? And then
(39:11):
finally, like I said, communication skills,
and that emotional intelligence
to be able to engage with somebody.
And
I'm not saying show the amount of respect,
but, you know,
work with your colleagues
and respect them, work with me on the
line, etcetera, and be able to align.
(39:34):
That that's where the great leaders are gonna
come from. Right? So Yeah. Especially
nowadays. And that's why it was interesting to
see that comparison between Jack Welch and Ubaid
Jolley.
And I I actually I never met Jack
Welch, but I had the great pleasure to
meet Tubel when he was with, Radisson.
And he always stroked me as a, you
(39:54):
know, as as an interesting character, as somebody
I can relate to. And then I read
his book, and I said, this is just
a great book. Right?
It's,
business from the heart. Right? So
how he repositioned Best Buy, really, and then
his own career and how the way the
way he changed
his leadership style from the beginning,
(40:16):
to to where he ended up with, Best
Buy and was super successful there. You know?
And I'm not saying that Jack Welsh was
not successful. This time, he was. But,
I'm certainly more Uber Jolly type. Right? So
so
so that's that's the
that's what I say. And then there were
a few students which I thought it's such
(40:37):
a shame
that they don't take this opportunity,
to really do something with it, you know,
Because, you know, I didn't see them engaged,
for whatever reasons. I don't know. Maybe they
had personal issues or they they were bored
or whatever it is.
But
you're in the you're in such a great
(40:57):
school.
You know? You have the opportunity
to network,
etcetera,
and you don't take the opportunity.
For me, it's a lost opportunity for them.
It's not for me, but for them. Right?
So Absolutely.
That's unfortunately what it is. Yeah. How about
then,
how do you mentor those students to prepare
them for the pressure and complexities
(41:19):
of executive roles? Because that's been quite,
lonely on the top, quite windy.
Yeah. No. No. True.
Quite, hot in The Middle
East. 50 degrees.
But, yeah, I mean, it's a journey. You
know? So so
I I showed them a little bit my
journey,
(41:39):
on on the learnings from the journey. You
know? So I took, you know, from the
from the humble beginnings to the the next
steps and
where, also, I made mistakes. So I said,
look. I've made mistakes. Right? Maybe I shouldn't
have done that, but I never looked back
because I said, okay. Look forward. Right?
One of the the points I told them,
you know, find mentors. Find one or two
(42:01):
good mentors that you you
obviously, we're talking about,
David. Is this David? The
the the gentleman you saw in Berlin? Or
David Kong. David Kong. I think I met
him also once. But, you know, in my
life, I had also a couple of, you
know, great mentors that helped me professionally,
but also,
personally. Right? So
(42:23):
and,
you
you you know, and don't
you know? So so I think I said
that that really helps if you have mentorship.
And actually quite interesting,
in my company now,
they have
engaged some coaches for us, right,
to coach us.
You you would think, you know, by now,
(42:45):
there's nothing else I can learn. Right? But
I honestly, I sat with him, and that
that was not my attitude. I said, wait.
This is, like, fantastic.
I think some of my colleagues said said
or were thinking or I was talking to
the coach.
They say, yeah. The reaction was a little
bit, I don't really need that. I know
what I'm doing. I'm not gonna change, etcetera.
I took a different little bit a different
(43:05):
approach. I said, look.
I'm eager to learn, and I'm eager to
change. And then we decided on three, four
things that we want to do different.
One is,
you know, one of the things I do
a little bit too much is work in
my world, my silo, and, you know,
we're doing our thing. Don't think of the
(43:26):
environment.
So to engage much more with my colleagues
in the different verticals. Right? So I say,
yeah. That's a good point. So I started
really actually meeting with them.
And they said, oh, that's interesting.
And then they they enjoyed it too. Right?
I learned from their business,
and then out of the meeting, things came
up. So so that was number one. Number
(43:47):
two,
I say sometimes I do too much from
the heart. Right? So this one is obviously
from the heart because we have a a
nice chat.
But when I do a presentation,
I need to prepare better, right, to be
ready
to prepare
and,
you know, on on
do put my put a point across. Right?
(44:09):
So Yeah.
Versus talking from the guts and the heart,
etcetera, and then you forget 20%.
And
maybe they figure, oh, he's very genuine in
in what he's saying, but, you know, what's
his point? Right? So Exactly. I I really
prepared really well for
I was on a on a panel, you
know, one of these panels,
(44:29):
in, and I I I thought, oh, okay.
That really helped me
to do a better job, really, because I
I was really well prepared. I had my
entry, my exit, my talking points, etcetera.
And I didn't write it down, etcetera,
but I felt I was really ready. Right?
So You you went through it mentally. Yes.
(44:50):
Yes. So there's a couple of things like
this that,
that's that's I really picked up nicely. So
so
the point is
you you really
you always have to, challenge yourself, always learn,
etcetera.
And you you should be afraid to have,
you know, against somebody tells
(45:11):
to tell you, you know, how how how
you can improve.
My my my point was,
you know, Tiger Woods. Right? I mean, Tiger
Woods had a coach.
He had coaches, you know, the the the
the health coach, etcetera, but
golf coaches, right, you would think that he
knows how to play golf. Right? Why does
(45:31):
he need a coach? Or, like, or or,
like, you have,
say, Roger Federer. Right? He knows how to
play tennis. Why does he need a coach?
Right? I mean, he was, top of his
game.
So even if you are on the top
of your game,
I still think you need a a a
strong coach. Right? Absolutely. Yeah.
So, Mark, this has been a great conversation,
(45:53):
and, we touched a number of things and,
but but your experience,
at,
at Lausanne.
And then of course,
it was interesting to have you exchange few
ideas on this, about what we, how, what
we have to learn because we're living, we're
coming from a generation, unlike the current generation
have different needs and how we have to
(46:14):
also
change. But my question mark to you is
that what legacy or long term impact do
you hope to leave through your engagement
with the next generation in Lausanne?
Yeah. I think,
it's it's not so much about leaving a
legacy. I think,
leaving a legacy is pretty,
egoistic.
You know? Do you think of yourself, you
(46:35):
know, or people are going to think that
I'm a great guy, etcetera. I mean,
I hope that people some people will come
when I die.
A few people will come to the church.
Right?
But it was his name again. Yeah.
It's okay. Flip, you know, flip through. He's
gone. Right? He was he was okay.
No. The the so it's it's not so
(46:57):
much the legacy part. Right?
It's it's it's really
one of the things I really wanna do
is is try to get as many people
into the business.
Yes. And because I think it's a great
business,
and sometimes people don't realize
the the incredible lives that you can have
(47:18):
in that business. Right? So so I think
that's
that's certainly
one.
The the the second part is also,
you know, it's it's kind of giving back.
I mean, it's a little bit cliche
that you you you kind of learned a
lot of things. Why not give back? I
mean, you can write the book, which I
thought about, but
just, it's a little work to write a
(47:39):
book, and then so, eventually, maybe I'll write
a book.
So so, hopefully, you can you can
buy me or no. I'll give it to
you for free on a signage. Right? So
but, Yeah. And I'll promote it. Yeah. Yeah.
You can promote it. Exactly. Exactly. Now a
book is a good one. Right? It's always
good. But, you know, what kind of book
are you gonna write? Right? So but, anyway,
(48:00):
so so that's the that's the the other
part. But,
the the the other one, it's really a
selfish reason is that I
thoroughly enjoyed
doing it. I I it was great. You
know, being back in school, I was in
a studio.
And I must tell you, Lausanne is like
a country club. Right? So went to the
gym every morning, went for a walk, you
(48:22):
know, at the the swimming pool, all this
great food.
I said, hey. This is, like, great. Right?
And so so I I
it was really a little bit of a
selfish thing that I I really enjoyed it,
and I enjoyed every day that,
you know, I I I I was doing
my courses, etcetera.
(48:43):
And then I I I certainly enjoyed
some of the two students coming back to
me and say, you know, thank you very
much.
They called me doctor. Then I said, no.
Don't don't call me doctor. I'm not a
doctor.
I said, I I certainly don't have a
PhD,
but, you know, it was really nice to
see how they appreciated it.
(49:04):
Not every not each one came to see
me. But, you know,
a lot of them, and they sent me
a nice, note on LinkedIn
or sent me a nice,
email.
You know, a gentleman wants to have a
follow-up call because he's dropping a result, agrees,
and he wanted to have my feedback, etcetera.
So
it's super rewarding
to to do that. Right? So,
(49:27):
I certainly will send you an invitation for
my calls next year. Hopefully, you can also,
you know, join.
That that that would be certainly great.
Yeah. That would be an honor. So thanks,
Mark. So well, I think we have had
a very good discussion. So thanks very much,
Mark, for
joining this very
important,
(49:48):
episode today about education
and and also for us
who are from the analog period that what
we how we have to change.
So,
with this,
episode, I just want to say thank you
very much for your fantastic insight.
Thank you. Thank you, Sam.
Look forward to next one.
Thank you for tuning in to The Social
(50:09):
Hotelier. If you enjoyed this episode that I
had the discussion with conversation with Mark, please
take a moment to leave us a review
on, Apple Podcasts,
and give it a thumbs up or even
don't forget to hit the subscribe button to
stay updated. Now, if you leave the review
on on the podcast, you have to use
your mobile device when you go to Apple
podcast and just write what you thought about
it and what you liked about it are
(50:31):
are the things that you you have wanted
to hear more because that gives me an
inspiration to create another episode
with Mark. So we have an incredible lineup
of guests coming your way in the future.
So stay tuned for more thought provoking conversations.
Until next time, take care and keep exploring.
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