January 19, 2025 • 44 mins
The Art of Hospitality: Designing Spaces That Inspire and Connect
Have you ever walked into a space and felt instantly at ease—as if it were designed just for you? Or perhaps the opposite, where a space seemed to push you away, leaving you feeling out of place? The spaces we inhabit hold incredible power, shaping our emotions, connections, and even our sense of belonging. Today, we’re diving deep into this idea with Ryan Anderson, the Vice President of Global Research and Planning at MillerKnoll, in a cozy fireside chat that promises to challenge the way you think about hospitality and design.
Ryan brings over 30 years of expertise in creating environments that don’t just look good but feel right—spaces that foster connection and comfort while leaving a lasting impression. So, grab a coffee, settle in, and let’s explore the art and science of designing spaces that inspire and connect.
Hospitality Beyond Aesthetics
With over 30 years of experience in furniture and textiles, Ryan brought incredible insights to our conversation. He shared that hospitality isn’t just about beautiful spaces and creating meaningful experiences. “Every space has a purpose,” he said, pointing out how the design of a hotel lobby or a café can transform how guests and staff connect. “Hospitality is a place-based phenomenon,” he added, emphasizing that great design can elevate both personal experiences and business outcomes.
Introduction of the concept of loving strangers
Ryan introduced the concept of “philoxenia”—the ancient Greek term for loving strangers. “Hospitality starts with making others feel safe and cared for,” he said. For instance, he shared how a simple gesture, like personalizing room amenities for a guest’s preferences, can create moments of genuine connection.
Takeaways
The design of spaces significantly impacts our emotions and relationships.
Cultural experiences shape our understanding of hospitality.
Great hospitality is about sincere care for others.
Place attachment is formed through our experiences in spaces.
Design can either foster or hinder a sense of belonging.
Sensory experiences play a crucial role in comfort.
Sustainability in design promotes well-being for people and the planet.
Technology should enhance, not replace, human connections.
Inclusion is essential for creating positive first impressions.
Employees should be treated as valued customers in hospitality.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:05):
You know, I come back to some of
the ancient roots of hospitality about about, loving
strangers. Right? Philoxenia,
the opposite of xenophobia.
It's all about
really having somebody else's well-being
in mind, and that's expressed differently. You know,
it is culturally dependent, but it starts with
a deep desire to make sure that we
(00:26):
love somebody that maybe isn't somebody we already
know or isn't somebody who's already in our
life. That can happen in a wide variety
of ways.
It usually begins with making sure someone feels
safe and secure and that they're in a
protected environment.
That changes based on if you're in somebody's
home or if you're in a hospital or
if you're in a a hotel or restaurant,
(00:47):
but it's all about taking care of people.
And I think most of us have experienced
these
these moments of hospitality that are really sincere.
Hi, everyone. Welcome back to the Social Hotelier
podcast with me, Sam Erik Ruthman.
Have you ever wondered how spaces we inhabit,
whether it's a bustling hotel lobby, a serene
(01:08):
cafe, or a thoughtfully designed office,
shape not just our experiences, but our relationships,
emotions, and even our sense of belonging.
Today, we are diving into the art and
science of creating environments
that do not do more than look good.
They make us feel good,
connect us, and leaving a lasting impression.
(01:29):
This conversation about hospitality,
design, and human connection, where global experience must
meet cutting edge research and personal insights.
In today's episode, I'm very glad we have
a great guest today, Ryan Anderson.
He's the vice president of global research and
planning at Miller and All. So welcome, Ryan,
and thanks for joining us today. Thank you,
(01:49):
Sam Erik. It's a joy to be here.
Well, I think this is an episode I've
been really looking forward because it touches all
the nerves.
I I feel it's so important about we
tend to talk one-sided things about hospitality. Yes.
We talk about design, but there's much more
to that. So
men but more importantly, to get started, so
could you share a little bit about your
professional experience and and your activities and how
(02:11):
you end up doing what you do with
Millik Nul?
Sure. Well, I'd be happy to. So, yeah,
I've been in our industry, which is mostly
focused on providing furniture and textiles and other
furnishings for different sort of environments for 30
years.
I find the relationship between the spaces we
inhabit
and how it affects our lives to be
(02:33):
a fascinating one.
I'm 30 years in, and I'm still as
interested in this topic as I've ever been.
Miller Knoll is a collective of brands, so
you might know companies like HAY based in
in, Denmark or Herman Miller based here in
in the states.
And, we serve a lot of different sort
of environments. And so
the way I tend to think about this
(02:53):
is the concept of hospitality
is something that transcends almost every
every space that we help to create.
And hospitality,
it's a place based phenomena. Like you express
hospitality in a physical environment.
And so that allows us to begin thinking
about how very specific types of spaces or
in this case, the hospitality industry
(03:15):
can go deeper in thinking about how the
design of these environments
create great experiences,
both for the people who work there, maybe
the staff, but also the people who are
our customers and ultimately
improve improve the business.
Yeah. But your career has taken you across
the global globe and around the globe, and,
how have the your diverse experiences in different
(03:37):
cultures
shaped your understanding of hospitality?
Yeah.
Well, I know that you're saying that I'm
a global citizen, but I know a little
bit about your background. I'm not sure I
can hold a candle to some of what
you've done, but it's true. We have a
team all over the world,
and we spend a lot of time visiting
different markets and seeing different sorts of environments.
You know, I come back to some of
(03:57):
the ancient roots of hospitality
about
about, loving strangers. Right? Philoxenia,
the opposite of xenophobia.
It's all about
really
having somebody else's well-being
in mind,
and that's expressed differently. You know, it is
culturally dependent, but it starts with
a deep desire to make sure that we
(04:18):
love somebody that maybe isn't somebody we already
know or isn't somebody who's already in our
life. That can happen in a wide variety
of ways.
It usually begins with making sure someone feels
safe and secure and that they're in a
protected environment.
That changes based on if you're in somebody's
home or if you're in a hospital or
if you're in a a hotel or restaurant.
(04:38):
But it's all about taking care of people.
And I think most of us have experienced
these
these moments of hospitality that are really sincere,
you know, where where you know that you're
with someone who's really looking out for you
and others that feel a little manufactured,
where it's like a business model, but it's
not something that's really,
you know, driving those interactions between people. But,
(05:02):
great hospitality is something that can be experienced
almost anywhere as long as you've got someone
who's in that hosting role
that sincerely cares about
taking care of someone else.
And that tends to be also more almost
one of the most difficult things to accomplish.
I mean,
brands and who creates lots of brand standards
that talk about the golden moment, the memorable
(05:24):
experiences, and they talk about these things. And
and then we are hammering into the staff
that,
what's your your job? Oh, I'm housekeeping.
No. You are creating experiences. So they're getting
that
really, almost like a brainwash, but then then
the poor housekeeping
clerk just tries to figure out that what
does it what does it actually mean to
(05:46):
creating experience for other people. And I think
it can be very simple that you
smile or look people in the eye and
see that is there something they're missing in
their room that you actually make sure that
it's gonna be there? There's small things. And,
you know, that's how I I lived through
this
journey of hospitality for quite a while, and
(06:06):
it still fascinates me. I get really,
so tickled to death when I meet someone
that
shows sincerity, and they're even the simple thing,
they make you feel comfortable. And I think
more important that anyone who comes to the
space feel safe, and that's wonderful.
But you talked about place attachment as a
fascinating concept.
(06:26):
What do you think creates that strong emotional
connection to a space, and and how can
business business cultivate that?
This is one of my favorite topics. So
place attachment is a theory from the world
of environmental psychology, and
we've worked with,
with Cornell University,
in New York over the years. And so,
(06:46):
I don't know. It was a couple years
ago, I remember having a conversation with an
intern that we had in Cornell about why
people tend to sit at the same chair
at their dining room table, you know, each
time or why we might gravitate towards the
same place. In fact, I was visiting
Sydney,
in September, and the last time I was
there was in, oh, maybe 2018 or 2019.
(07:09):
And I went to this really specific cafe,
over on Manly Beach. And when I was
just there in September, I found myself getting
on a ferry, going over to the same
beach, walking around, and finding myself at the
same cafe. Like, I had the entire city
at my disposal. Why did I go back
to the same place? And the idea of
place attachment is that
(07:29):
we aren't just creatures of habit. We actually
form relationship
with places.
And those relationships are based on our experiences
there. They're often based on the experiences we've
had with other people there, but they create
a connection between us and the space. And
you can see it when people start using
possessive terms like my table or my restaurant
(07:51):
or my my favorite place at the bar.
And the design of the environment's really important.
But as you point out, you can't overly
program great hospitality. It's almost always a really
wonderful experience that you have either with somebody
who's the host there or with with members
of your, you know, friend group or family
within an environment.
(08:12):
And in the same way that we can
attach to an environment, we can also detach.
So if we have that bad experience,
it can put that relationship we have with
the space at risk. I think we see
this a lot right now with offices with
what's happened in the last, you know, 5
or 6 years.
People maybe didn't love working in these really
(08:33):
open offices. And when more remote work started,
people detached. And you've got all these folks
within the world of corporate real estate
asking how you know, not just to get
people to come back, but how to get
people to reattach. But this is true of,
health care facilities. We see,
hospitals investing in these birthing centers so that
if somebody goes and has a baby and
(08:54):
has a wonderful experience, they're gonna use that
health system
as opposed to the other one down the
street for the next 30 years.
And it's certainly true when we get into
restaurants, hospitals,
event venues.
It's It's all about creating a great sincere
experience just like what we talked about before.
Yeah.
Yeah. My experience with going to dentists or
(09:17):
going to hospital, you have that waiting room
where you're waiting and you're looking at the
everybody's trying to just stare at the magazine
or or their iPhone
and don't I feel kind of a little
bit insecure. And but when it comes to
that,
hospitality,
when it comes to design,
how have you gone about this to resolve
the issue that people feel actually comfortable in
the hospital waiting room? What are has been
(09:39):
sort of the some techniques or thoughts that
you has gone through you in your mind?
Great question. It starts with,
addressing something that you just brought up, which
is do we know that there's common frustrations
or just experiences that people really don't like
that for some reason we all live with?
Waiting rooms are a really good example. I'm
(09:59):
gonna circle back to that in just a
second. But it's interesting that you mentioned health
care environments because,
a couple years ago, there was a general
in the US
military who put out a a request about
creating
better hospitality in the military hospitals because the
enlisted soldiers now had more choice over where
they could go. It used to be that
they could only use these hospitals.
(10:21):
And so our director of research, doctor Marcel
Osman,
did a a project, a study specifically on
health environments
looking at what hospitality might mean. It came
back to some of the principles we discussed.
It was about protection and safety, particularly in
that sort of environment. And when you're in
a waiting room, sometimes you feel really exposed
to other people. Sometimes it doesn't always feel
(10:43):
safe.
It's also about creating a degree of intellectual
or relational welcome where people can talk about
them themselves and their lives and tell their
stories, and you really you want that dynamic.
And then it is that kind of shared
table experience where we have key moments together.
I remember one very specific project because it
wasn't very long ago. We were approached by
(11:05):
a health system in the US called Jefferson
Health to help create
a better waiting room experience for their autism
center. And if you're familiar with neurodivergence
or autism,
sensory inputs are extremely
important. And so
we co designed a chair with patients who
have autism
that had kind of a textured armrest to
(11:27):
give them a little something to to kind
of stimulate their sensory experience. But the chair
had a,
kind of a screen around it, like a
panel around it, some privacy.
And,
there were some very specific facets that they
that they wanted. As an example,
pattern
pattern recognition is really important to those, with
(11:47):
autism, and so they really liked, a herringbone
type fabric. So we ended up custom creating
this chair
that provides a little bit more visual shelter,
a little bit more protection
in that environment.
And as soon as we got done, a
lot of people thought, I think I would
prefer a little more privacy, a little more
boundary in a in a health care waiting
(12:08):
facility because it's awkward. You know? You've got
you're filling out some forms about your health,
and you might be talking with your your
partner or your parent or your child about,
like, sensitive matters.
So we just have to keep coming back
to those experiences that we know are not
great, but that for some reason everybody just
lives with and begin to figure out how
(12:28):
to make them better. Yeah. Yeah. But can
you also share some examples where design element
has failed to make people, feel that they
they belong? That could be very interesting because
you mentioned now,
the the success part of it
in design.
Yeah. Well, I think we need to be
mindful that the physical design of an environment
sends a message to people. And and, sometimes
(12:50):
we'll use the term belonging cues. Like, what
what,
alerts you when you walk into an environment
that this space is for you or not?
So sometimes in an effort to really create
a premium aesthetic
experience,
we can cause some people to feel like
maybe the space isn't for them, like it's
too exclusive or that it's too masculine
(13:11):
or that it's for older people or people
of a certain ethnicity.
We have to be kind of mindful of
that.
And, I've seen it play out in lobbies
as an example of different sorts of environments
where
you walk in
and people appreciate a degree of refinement,
and there might be some nice soothing music
(13:32):
or somebody's used a scent cannon to introduce
a smell. But after you go to a
certain point, it can begin to feel like,
I'm not sure I belong here. Like, I'm
not sure. Like, I can afford to stay
at this hotel or I I came to
this this restaurant because it sounds like a
a place I would enjoy eating, or maybe
it's an office, or maybe it's a,
a school. But if it begins to feel
(13:53):
like it was designed with somebody else's taste,
somebody else's lifestyle,
somebody else's income in mind,
it can become too exclusive, basically, to the
point where we've interrupted the process of hospitality,
and we have to be really careful of
that.
We're seeing this,
interestingly in offices right now with private offices.
(14:15):
Like, private offices are still part of the
design of a lot of corporate work settings,
and they used to be very masculine and
all about expressing status and power. But as
organizations
say, actually, we'd like to see our people
collaborating more, interacting more. We want the managers
and the staff to get along better.
Having a a private office where somebody doesn't
(14:36):
feel like they can even walk through the
door safely is counterproductive.
So we're seeing even the design of, like,
a back of the
house private office
feel far more welcoming. Come in. Have a
seat. Talk to me. You know, that kind
of thing. Yeah. It's very good. My one
of my favorite examples is that I will
always remember
when I was 5 years old when I
(14:56):
had to go to the dentist with my
father.
How how it has been done with
thinking about that little little child that's going
maybe the scariest moment in their life where
they end up going to see this
dentist is gonna pull a tooth or something
like that. Anything you have any thoughts you
have about that making those kids feel comfortable?
(15:17):
Oh, yes. There's so many facets that can
help a child or the parent feel more
comfortable in a setting like that. So one
is the use of color.
You know, medical offices tend to look very
institutional.
Yeah. And they have those kind of unusual
smells because they're using disinfectants and cleaning. And
so having warmer colors, having a lot more,
(15:41):
natural elements, there's a a concept within the
world of interior design called biophilic design. It
actually extends beyond interior design, but it's basically
like, how do you bring the outdoors in?
So having more plants, having,
more natural light. You've probably seen aquariums
in health facilities before. There's been some interesting
(16:02):
research to indicate that
looking at fish in aquarium lowers heart rate.
I actually, in my own home private office
here, focus on not only plants, but I
have an aquarium just beyond
the view of my camera. So sometimes even
here, when I take meetings throughout the day,
my eyes might drift towards the fish, and
it's a positive relaxing experience. Yeah.
(16:24):
I also think that having,
you know, books and other things are are
quite common
because it's a way of mentally allowing someone
to take their focus off. I'm gonna get
a filling or a cleaning
and have a little fun reading
a children's book.
But there's also some other elements that people
might not always think about, like what we
(16:45):
talked about before. How do you allow a
parent and a child to have a little
bit of their own space
and feel like they can converse freely without
being overheard by, you know, 3 other parents
and their kids
or being too much in their space? And
that allows just, like, a certain degree of,
conversation and reassurance
that is sometimes awkward to have in environments
(17:07):
that are a little more tightly planned. You
don't really want people sitting on top of
each other in any of those sort of
spaces. So those are some of the things
that come to mind. It's great.
So you do you talked about, like, sensory
experiences.
Like, how does the, like, a touch, sound,
or even lighting
impact how people perceive comfort
and care in a space?
It's it's so important, and it's so poorly
(17:30):
understood. I I actually just was in a
conversation with an environmental psychologist, doctor Sally Augustine,
about this yesterday.
Because
the acoustics of a space, the lighting of
a space,
colors, etcetera,
all actually affect not only how we feel,
but how we interact and understand other people
in that space.
(17:51):
And so you have to just be really,
I think,
conscientious and considerate with some of these choices.
As an example,
music can be a wonderful addition to a
lot of different spaces, including,
a waiting room at a dentist as an
example.
But most of us have been in a
space where the music is a little bit
too prominent. I was at a restaurant,
(18:13):
with, some family just last week, and I
I just kept thinking it's it it was
my favorite restaurant, but they've turned up the
music a little bit too loud. Now it's
interfering with my ability to hear Yeah. Some
of the others. And I was with a
couple older relatives who I knew were really
struggling. Like, I could see those cues where
they were leaning in to try to to
to listen a little bit.
(18:34):
Lighting is critically important. It it affects our
sense of whether or not the space is
healthy,
or whether or not it's it's a place
that supports well-being.
There's even been some interesting research showing that
having just plants in a space
can cause someone to perceive that space as
far more healthier. It is because those plants
are eating up some of the carbon
(18:55):
dioxide and providing us an oxygenated
space. And if you see,
you know, a space that's really crowded and
used too much over time,
sometimes those air quality levels can get to
the point where it almost causes you a
little bit of a headache.
So fresh air,
lighting,
plants, they all communicate to someone,
(19:16):
this is a healthy place to be. Like,
whoever designed it, whoever manages it cares about
your well-being.
And as long as we're considerate with those
design choices, we can make sure that they
don't interfere with the things that people trying
to do there.
Yeah. Yeah. I think it's so important, for
instance, that, I paid a lot of attention
to to the background music or the the
background,
(19:36):
the
soundscape or whatever you like to call it.
I mean, there were days I mean, I
have to tell you quickly,
I love music. So I used to go
to watch, rock band, pop bands, and I
thought it was the greatest idea,
when I was working in in
in Lake Geneva, Wisconsin. And not far away,
there was a
event concert event place, and we had one
(19:57):
of the bands I that I had really
admired. I had a chance to see the
band
and well, called Fleetwood Mac. Now Fleetwood
Mac came for dinner, and they stayed at
the hotel. So I thought I was doing
them a favor
playing their, their album
to the,
level of sound that I like to listen
to. But they looked they were very annoyed
(20:18):
because they came for a quiet meal before,
it
was sort of a a kind of a
fundamental
mistake by me because I thought that was
doing him a favor, but I didn't understand
the contact the the the concept of what
does it actually mean to provide a very
common
sound environment. So, I mean, if anyone thinks
(20:38):
that they should put the their favorite band's
music as a background music while they are
serving the guests, I think that's
not recommended.
Yeah. And, you know, I think there's parallel
there with all of these environments where there's
televisions that are turned on. Yeah. If it's
a if it's a sports bar and I
get a chance to see all my favorite,
you know, football matches or hockey games or
(20:59):
whatever, that's great. But if I'm going into,
an office building or a school or somewhere
else
and someone's got a news program that's just
showing one image after another of everything that's
going wrong in the world,
that's
very challenging to our our psychological or cognitive
health.
And in general, we spend so much time
(21:21):
on screens right now that we've seen an
increase in this sense of loneliness,
a decrease in the sense of belonging. All
these interactions we have on screens
don't necessarily lead to a deeper type of
connection. And so
we've seen
this hunger
for all of these spaces that are very
quiet technologically.
(21:42):
Even in in offices, we're seeing more and
more,
like, large round tables, no screens in the
place just for people to go have a
conversation.
We see some similar dynamics, places where somebody
might study in a place of higher education.
It's really important to know when the technology
is helping and when it's interfering with some
(22:02):
some experience people are seeking.
Yeah. I mean, this is so important, particularly
when you have,
restaurants that have to really think
carefully that, they provide that environment that actually
people there,
don't necessarily come for watching the news. They
want to have actually quiet drink or they
want to have a quiet conversation or they
just want to,
(22:24):
be in in sort of a in every
in almost in silence and and enjoy something
that they came for. So, you know, how
important That's exactly right. Like, at a at
a hotel bar as an example,
having some TVs because there might be a
big sporting match or something is really great,
but throwing on
anything related to the news
causes people to feel,
(22:45):
that loss of safety
within an environment.
We we talk a lot about the concept
of psychological safety, which is more, like, do
you feel comfortable being yourself and expressing yourself?
But there's also this dimension that
if there's things
around you reminding you of a lack of
safety in the world, it's just very disquieting.
(23:06):
And so that can quickly become, you know,
turning a great experience into a lousy one.
Sure. Sure.
You mentioned about new neuroaesthetics.
I'm interested to
how explores how aesthetics influence our emotions
and decisions. How do you see this concept
intersecting with hospitality
design and creating memorable guest experiences?
(23:28):
Yeah. We're into a a deep cut here
because even within the world of architecture and
interior design, neuroaesthetics
is a very new and interesting relatively new
and
very interesting concept.
Basically, what we're talking about is the brain
science of how the things around us make
us feel
and how by impacting how we make us
(23:50):
feel, how it changes our behaviors and decisions.
And we have,
a a company within the Miller Knoll Collective
called Muuto, based in Copenhagen, who
years ago I think this was 2018 at
Salone, big design event,
partnered up with Johns Hopkins University here in
the States and Google
to try a really interesting neuroaesthetics
(24:13):
experiment.
They created these different spaces that had a
very different feel, a very different vibe.
And Google put these little wristbands on people,
which measured some of their biometric,
feedback.
And they didn't save the data because this
was not a study and people weren't giving
their data over, but they visualized it. And
people can actually see
(24:34):
how their bodies changed when they walked into
different sorts of spaces.
This, to me,
represents a really interesting
new frontier because if we can get a
little bit better at understanding how the design
of a space impacts
feelings
and our and our minds and our bodies
in a measurable way,
we can begin to promote even better design
(24:57):
practices.
So we've continued
our work, at Miller Knoll with what's called
the International Arts and Minds Lab at Johns
Hopkins University as well as some leading
design practitioners,
to continue to explore this. But I'll tell
you, I think it's still pretty early. Like,
we as far as sciences go, we need
a lot more data. We need a lot
(25:18):
more experimentation.
I think we know in some cases, like,
you could probably walk into
some of the world's best hotels and suggest
to me, this is the sort of ways
that these spaces make people feel because you've
been in the industry. You know it.
Someone like me, I would only speculate. But
the more that we can actually turn it
(25:38):
from an art into a little bit more
of a of a database
practice,
the more we can promote, you know, really
amazing experiences within all sorts of different environments
using architecture,
art,
sensory inputs like you just described, that sort
of thing.
Oh, that's actually fascinating. And you may as
you say, it's actually very early
on. When I visit new hotels that are
(26:00):
being opened, I mean, they could really use
some of that technology, and and and so
we're not repeating the same
situations. And and because
I'm I'm quite sensitive to when I walk
into a hotel. I mean, I I got
my antennas out, and I I start to
how does this feel? That's how I start
my my thinking, not looking at the people,
(26:21):
but just how do I feel when I
walk in. Is it does it feel welcoming?
What is it what's going on in my
mind? And and, maybe I should start to
write some mental notes every time I go
into a new place, and then maybe I
use that as a small study in one
of these days.
I think that's a great idea. Actually, even
just listing off adjectives of this these are
(26:42):
the adjectives that come to mind in this
space.
I think one of the challenges, and this
relates to many of the things we've talked
about around place attachment and belonging and neuroaesthetics,
is that
we need to design with, not just for
the people we serve. So a more participative
or a more inclusive design practice is really,
(27:03):
really important.
There's too many instances
where whoever is funding the project or whoever
is doing the design
assumes that the way they're gonna feel or
the way they're gonna experience a space is
how others are gonna experience the space. And
so
we like to try to think about
a cocreative
process where we can get people just like
(27:25):
we did with that waiting room with the
autism center. We had the patients with autism
involved in the design process.
You can do that for hotels, restaurants, offices,
schools.
It's not
a matter of asking people to make design
choices because they're not designers.
It's about trying to help understand how are
they gonna experience this. Even showing them
(27:46):
renderings or visuals or taking them to a
few other places and saying, can you tell
me how this space makes you feel? Every
once in a while, we'll do a research
project that includes what we call digital ethnography.
But, basically, what it means is
giving research participants the chance to go
capture information digitally that we see. So we
might say to someone,
(28:07):
please go take
6 pictures of the places where you feel
most comfortable or that most inspire you or
that you feel most connected to the people
you love. And what's amazing about that is
when you get those pictures,
you're seeing it directly through how they framed
that image. You're not walking in,
staring at them, seeing the space from another
(28:28):
angle, and you begin to see elements
in that design
in a new way. And so if it
were me going like let's just say I
had the chance to go open a really
nice hotel.
I would want to know how other people
experience,
the hotel when they step into that room
or when they step into the bar or
the lobby
(28:48):
in a way that
isn't isn't biased by my own experiences or
the way that I relate to other people
or I see the world. And those kind
of cocreative processes are very rare,
unfortunately,
but they yield very, very good results. We've
seen many instances
where the design choices change
(29:10):
and the customer experiences
are, you know, so much better
simply because,
you know, it's a it's a broader diversity
of perspectives.
Exactly. Yeah.
One of my favorite topics also that I
want to to touch on is sustainability
and design.
They often come together in modern hospitality and
particularly with the studio Puesta architects that I
(29:31):
work with. That is a very important aspect
of creating the sort of a sustainable human
experience as it's called, for lack of better
words. But how can spaces,
balance ecological responsibility
with the need for comfort and luxury in
your opinion?
That's a great that's a great question. And
I know leading design practitioners
are thinking about this a lot as are
(29:52):
we.
Well,
I think at the core, it gets back
to what we discussed earlier, which is this
is about well-being in the broadest sense. What
kind of choices
are being made with the design
that promotes
a really great environment and a really great
planet,
long term for the inhabitants of both? I
think the challenge is that a lot of
(30:13):
times,
really responsible design choices, like choosing products that
have
lower volatile organic compounds, you know,
basically making sure that the the products aren't
contributing to bad indoor air quality
or that they're not cheap and disposable or
gonna end up in a landfill.
Those choices might be made, but the people
who use the space might not actually know
(30:35):
that. They might not actually see it. And
so it requires a little bit of storytelling
in the same way that saying, we don't
have to wash your towels every night. There's
a more responsible option if this is what
you'd prefer.
Being able to say to someone,
you know, we've designed a space that has
more natural light because we think it's better
for you. We chose products that have a
(30:55):
high degree of recycled content because we believe
that's a more responsible choice.
In particular, I think indoor air quality, which
is which is what I just mentioned,
is,
one where people, even if they don't know
it consciously, can begin to tell that the
the elements that were chosen for a space
are healthier or not because those that have
(31:17):
more toxic compounds begin to release things into
the air that humans over time do begin
to recognize as being unhealthy or having kind
of that weird that unhealthy or having kind
of that weird
that weird smell. Sometimes when you're in a
space that has brand new paint and carpeting,
you're like, oh, I recognize this smell, but
I'm not really sure it's it's good for
me. So I think,
(31:37):
it's a matter of looking at the design
of the space, choosing the elements that go
into it,
and
being as responsible as possible. We can help
with that. And then telling the people you
serve, this is what we've chosen to do,
and it's for your well-being and ours.
Yeah.
Yeah. Let's talk a little bit about technology.
(31:58):
And, that really
hotel hospitality and hotels has been very
slow. They've been behind the curve for many
years, but suddenly,
we got COVID. And then you started to
see
keyless check ins to virtual concierge services, and
it was a bot that actually came to
have a discussion with you. And you don't
really know always know, is it a a
(32:19):
AI, or is it a a real person?
How do you think technology
enhances
or detracts from creating meaningful human connections in
these spaces these days?
Well, for me and and I should tell
you, I've probably spent,
almost half my career specifically focused on the
intersection of technology in different sort of spaces.
So I I could go on about this
(32:40):
one for a while. But technology,
when it's leveraged well, can provide both better
convenience and better experience for the person you're
serving while
saving time and money for your organization. I
think keyless entry is a really good example
where you still have an option to go
get a physical key card. Maybe you wanna
talk to the person at the front desk
(33:01):
and understand the pool hours and that sort
of thing. Or there's other times where it's
like, my plane landed at 11. I'm beat.
I just need to go to the room.
So providing choice is really excellent.
But in particular, I think we need to
be careful using any sort of technology
that's more for efficiency than it is for
experience.
(33:21):
And we can sometimes justify
technologies that save time and money with the
belief that they're improving people's experiences, but it
gets back to what we talked to before.
In a world where we
do so much through screens,
sitting in front of someone
and being able to have a little conversation
is sometimes really meaningful. Travel in particular,
(33:43):
it's a it's a lonely experience. And so
that person at the front desk,
if they're empathetic and they take that extra
couple of seconds to just ask about your
day,
there's a lot of value there. And we
need to be careful to not, you know,
scrub that value
out of the experience.
So I just think it takes a higher
degree of scrutiny. This is also another example
(34:05):
we're asking people,
hey. If we tried this technology, is this,
improving your overall experience or not? I I'll
use one other example. You know, QR codes
saw a resurgence during COVID. It's like if
there was any winners in those crazy couple
years, it was QR codes. And sometimes QR
codes can be great.
(34:27):
I could point my phone at it, get
immediately to a link, etcetera.
But I think we've all had that experience
where you go to into a restaurant and
you have questions about the menu,
and you're curious if something can be customized
to not have that sauce included, and you're
just desperate to talk with somebody who's
not only knowledgeable about the menu but interested
(34:47):
in your experience. And all you've got is
this,
you know, basically plastic covered QR code on
a table. So there's an example where
often it's outlived its usefulness.
Yeah. And it's interfering with a truly hospitable
experience, and we need to be we need
to be careful to not allow that to
happen in too many instances or else we
(35:08):
simply commoditize what we're doing. Even though the
chef might be amazing and the food might
be better, the overall experience still feels like
something you'd you'd have at a in an
airport. You know? Sure. Sure.
Besides the QR code, your, you know, your
career has also
has been involved advising on case journey experiences.
And,
what you believe is the most overlooked aspects
(35:28):
of creating a positive first
impression for for guests.
Well, it's probably inclusion.
And what I mean by that is if
I go back to those that ancient root
of hospitality
as loving the stranger
and how it's the opposite in terms of
the original Greek of of being xenophobic,
(35:48):
there's just a a need for people to
prioritize
welcoming others that are different than themselves. And
so I think
if you if you look back on the
people that you truly think are most hospitable,
that have that have had the biggest impact
on customer experiences or employee experiences,
they're usually people that really
(36:10):
sincerely are interested in
loving other people,
that are different than themselves. And so trying
to foster a sense of belonging
and trying to make sure that
the the brand strategy to, you know, the
the brand segmentation that says this is our
target market doesn't go too far. We can
have a target market or a target audience
(36:31):
for a hospitality
environment,
but we also need to try to make
sure that we're somehow not exclusionary.
I'll give you an example back in the
world of of health care. If you look
at patient rooms
and just
how challenging it is to design a great
patient room,
it's very,
(36:52):
good to think about the patient and their
experience and what they need to do if
they need help or if they're gonna eat
in the hospital bed. But they've got people
with them a lot of the time. Like,
they've got a child who's coming for a
procedure
with them, or they've got an elderly parent
or a spouse or whatever.
And so even asking the question,
what's their experience like, and how can we
(37:14):
make sure that if, you know, a 22
year old child is bringing in a parent
for some sort of procedure,
that we're attending to that person's needs. So
I just think there's a balance there. It's,
you know, brand strategy and market segmentation and
all of those tools we use to go
create brands that live,
they they still need to somehow
(37:35):
prioritize
inclusion and allowing anyone to feel like this
organization
cares about me and what I do. And
that's where those kind of participative design processes
become so critical.
Yeah. I understand that you're also the a
podcaster.
Am I right? I am. I
am. We have a a podcast called About
(37:56):
Place,
which is just that. It's about the places
we inhabit.
We have focused a lot on different types
of workplaces
and employee experiences, and some of that I
think would would be very true for back
of the house sort of environments and hotels
as an example.
But we introduce a lot of broader concepts.
So we talk about neuroaesthetics. We talk about
place attachment.
(38:17):
We just had a an episode where we
unpacked the concept of psychological safety with, really,
the world's expert on it, Amy Edmondson from
Harvard,
and just talked about how
being in person together in different sorts of
environments
allow people
to feel a greater sense of psychological safety,
which allows them to take smarter risks. So
(38:38):
tying those in person experiences to innovative outcomes
was, you know, really interesting conversation.
So, yeah, that's the kind of things we
dive into.
And like you, I really
I just love the experience of being a
host because it gives us a chance to
allow other people to share what they're thinking
about, which benefits all of us. Yeah. It's
(38:59):
a great learning experience.
Absolutely.
Any surprising insights that you have learned about
hospitality
from someone outside the industry
while you have,
interview them on on on your podcast?
Oh, on the podcast.
Well,
a few things come to mind. One is,
(39:19):
we actually dedicated an episode.
I usually have guests from outside of our
organization all over the world, but I had
our head of research who's on our team,
who I mentioned before, doctor Michelle Osman, come
and talk a little bit about that research
around hospitality
in health care environments. And I think about
it a lot because Michelle,
(39:39):
in doing that work, really took a pretty
comprehensive and
and historical approach to understanding hospitality.
And she she made it pretty clear right
off the bat, if we're thinking
food, drink, accommodations,
we should not start there. We need to
think about,
the relationship between a host
(40:00):
and a guest in the broadest sense of
the word. Even somebody who's working in, like,
let's just say,
a university,
if they're going to use a building in
another part, becomes like a guest. And whoever
is resident in that other facility becomes like
a host. And so the more that Michelle
unpacked that in that episode, I was already
(40:22):
familiar with the research, but she had such
depth of understanding that I kept having these
moments where I was like, yes.
That is definitely something,
broader. But the other person who comes to
mind is that we have this wonderful relationship
with
a lot of different researchers and designers and
thinkers. And one of them, her name is
Debbie Levich, she leads
(40:44):
talent research and consulting for the consulting firm
Boston Consulting Group. In fact, I'm gonna be
with her next week,
working on a few things.
One of the things that she and her
team have been promoting
is that we should look at employees in
an organization
as a type of customer.
And we should take the same customer experience
(41:06):
lens and begin to ask,
what does this mean for our employees? And
some of this is around
retention and engagement and what is known as
discretionary effort, like the degree to which somebody
really invests in their role. But it reminded
me a little bit of Danny Meyer's book,
Setting the Table, and this idea of enlightened
hospitality, where
the hospitality, where
the better experiences you can create for employees,
(41:30):
the better experiences they can create for others.
And Debbie has gotten into this way beyond,
one type of space. I mean, she's looking
into
all sorts of different work environments
and how treating employees as customers can actually
yield better
experiences for the people that we traditionally think
of as customers.
(41:51):
Wonderful. Well, I think, this should be a
very good
opportunity now for all the viewers and listeners
to listen in to your podcast. You have
some terrific guests, and I'm certainly gonna subscribe
after this. So this is gonna be great.
But, Ryan, I think, really, this has been
a great discussion,
and I think I could go on for
another few hours because there we could evolve
(42:12):
into
in deeper and dive into several topics here.
But I want to just say that,
I really appreciate that you had to take
the time today. And if people want to
reach out to you, how can they, find
you, and where they should they go?
Sure. There's a few different ways. We publish
a lot of our insights, including most of
what we've talked about today on millerknoll.com
(42:34):
under the insights tab.
I'm very active on LinkedIn. So Ryan Anderson,
Miller Knoll on LinkedIn. You'll see me sharing
different, you know, insights pretty much daily. And
then I also write a, a monthly column
for Forbes online, which if you go, and
just Google Forbes Ryan Anderson, you can see
some of what, some of what we're writing
(42:55):
there. And in particular, those articles are meant
to be easily shared with
with people who maybe don't think as much
about the design of environments. You know, a
a chief financial officer or a head of
HR or whatever who might,
you know, gain a greater appreciation for just
how impactful these spaces can be when framed
more in business language. So that's what I
(43:17):
do there.
Very good. Well, Ryan, again, thank you so
much. I appreciate that you joined today and
and today's episode. Thanks for all your fantastic
insights.
It was a pleasure. I'm I'm very grateful
for you and the fact that you had
me today. Thanks.
Thank you for tuning in to the Social
Hotelier. If you enjoy this episode, please take
a moment to leave us a review on
(43:38):
Apple Podcast, which you can do with your
mobile device. If you watch this episode on
YouTube, well, I don't mind if you give
it a thumbs up. And in fact, if
you subscribe to it, because you can see
that I have a lot of good get
great guests here.
So please subscribe so you can get keep
updated.
So this will help me to get more
guests for this show in the future. So
we have an incredible lineup of guests coming
(44:00):
your way. So stay tuned for more thought
provoking conversations like we had today. So until
next time, take care and keep exploring.
You know, I come back to some of
the ancient roots of hospitality about about, loving
strangers. Right? Philoxenia,
the opposite of xenophobia.
It's all about
really having somebody else's well-being
in mind, and that's expressed differently. You know,
it is culturally dependent, but it starts with
a deep desire to make sure that we
(00:26):
love somebody that maybe isn't somebody we already
know or isn't somebody who's already in our
life. That can happen in a wide variety
of ways.
It usually begins with making sure someone feels
safe and secure and that they're in a
protected environment.
That changes based on if you're in somebody's
home or if you're in a hospital or
if you're in a a hotel or restaurant,
(00:47):
but it's all about taking care of people.
And I think most of us have experienced
these
these moments of hospitality that are really sincere.
Hi, everyone. Welcome back to the Social Hotelier
podcast with me, Sam Erik Ruthman.
Have you ever wondered how spaces we inhabit,
whether it's a bustling hotel lobby, a serene
(01:08):
cafe, or a thoughtfully designed office,
shape not just our experiences, but our relationships,
emotions, and even our sense of belonging.
Today, we are diving into the art and
science of creating environments
that do not do more than look good.
They make us feel good,
connect us, and leaving a lasting impression.
(01:29):
This conversation about hospitality,
design, and human connection, where global experience must
meet cutting edge research and personal insights.
In today's episode, I'm very glad we have
a great guest today, Ryan Anderson.
He's the vice president of global research and
planning at Miller and All. So welcome, Ryan,
and thanks for joining us today. Thank you,
(01:49):
Sam Erik. It's a joy to be here.
Well, I think this is an episode I've
been really looking forward because it touches all
the nerves.
I I feel it's so important about we
tend to talk one-sided things about hospitality. Yes.
We talk about design, but there's much more
to that. So
men but more importantly, to get started, so
could you share a little bit about your
professional experience and and your activities and how
(02:11):
you end up doing what you do with
Millik Nul?
Sure. Well, I'd be happy to. So, yeah,
I've been in our industry, which is mostly
focused on providing furniture and textiles and other
furnishings for different sort of environments for 30
years.
I find the relationship between the spaces we
inhabit
and how it affects our lives to be
(02:33):
a fascinating one.
I'm 30 years in, and I'm still as
interested in this topic as I've ever been.
Miller Knoll is a collective of brands, so
you might know companies like HAY based in
in, Denmark or Herman Miller based here in
in the states.
And, we serve a lot of different sort
of environments. And so
the way I tend to think about this
(02:53):
is the concept of hospitality
is something that transcends almost every
every space that we help to create.
And hospitality,
it's a place based phenomena. Like you express
hospitality in a physical environment.
And so that allows us to begin thinking
about how very specific types of spaces or
in this case, the hospitality industry
(03:15):
can go deeper in thinking about how the
design of these environments
create great experiences,
both for the people who work there, maybe
the staff, but also the people who are
our customers and ultimately
improve improve the business.
Yeah. But your career has taken you across
the global globe and around the globe, and,
how have the your diverse experiences in different
(03:37):
cultures
shaped your understanding of hospitality?
Yeah.
Well, I know that you're saying that I'm
a global citizen, but I know a little
bit about your background. I'm not sure I
can hold a candle to some of what
you've done, but it's true. We have a
team all over the world,
and we spend a lot of time visiting
different markets and seeing different sorts of environments.
You know, I come back to some of
(03:57):
the ancient roots of hospitality
about
about, loving strangers. Right? Philoxenia,
the opposite of xenophobia.
It's all about
really
having somebody else's well-being
in mind,
and that's expressed differently. You know, it is
culturally dependent, but it starts with
a deep desire to make sure that we
(04:18):
love somebody that maybe isn't somebody we already
know or isn't somebody who's already in our
life. That can happen in a wide variety
of ways.
It usually begins with making sure someone feels
safe and secure and that they're in a
protected environment.
That changes based on if you're in somebody's
home or if you're in a hospital or
if you're in a a hotel or restaurant.
(04:38):
But it's all about taking care of people.
And I think most of us have experienced
these
these moments of hospitality that are really sincere,
you know, where where you know that you're
with someone who's really looking out for you
and others that feel a little manufactured,
where it's like a business model, but it's
not something that's really,
you know, driving those interactions between people. But,
(05:02):
great hospitality is something that can be experienced
almost anywhere as long as you've got someone
who's in that hosting role
that sincerely cares about
taking care of someone else.
And that tends to be also more almost
one of the most difficult things to accomplish.
I mean,
brands and who creates lots of brand standards
that talk about the golden moment, the memorable
(05:24):
experiences, and they talk about these things. And
and then we are hammering into the staff
that,
what's your your job? Oh, I'm housekeeping.
No. You are creating experiences. So they're getting
that
really, almost like a brainwash, but then then
the poor housekeeping
clerk just tries to figure out that what
does it what does it actually mean to
(05:46):
creating experience for other people. And I think
it can be very simple that you
smile or look people in the eye and
see that is there something they're missing in
their room that you actually make sure that
it's gonna be there? There's small things. And,
you know, that's how I I lived through
this
journey of hospitality for quite a while, and
(06:06):
it still fascinates me. I get really,
so tickled to death when I meet someone
that
shows sincerity, and they're even the simple thing,
they make you feel comfortable. And I think
more important that anyone who comes to the
space feel safe, and that's wonderful.
But you talked about place attachment as a
fascinating concept.
(06:26):
What do you think creates that strong emotional
connection to a space, and and how can
business business cultivate that?
This is one of my favorite topics. So
place attachment is a theory from the world
of environmental psychology, and
we've worked with,
with Cornell University,
in New York over the years. And so,
(06:46):
I don't know. It was a couple years
ago, I remember having a conversation with an
intern that we had in Cornell about why
people tend to sit at the same chair
at their dining room table, you know, each
time or why we might gravitate towards the
same place. In fact, I was visiting
Sydney,
in September, and the last time I was
there was in, oh, maybe 2018 or 2019.
(07:09):
And I went to this really specific cafe,
over on Manly Beach. And when I was
just there in September, I found myself getting
on a ferry, going over to the same
beach, walking around, and finding myself at the
same cafe. Like, I had the entire city
at my disposal. Why did I go back
to the same place? And the idea of
place attachment is that
(07:29):
we aren't just creatures of habit. We actually
form relationship
with places.
And those relationships are based on our experiences
there. They're often based on the experiences we've
had with other people there, but they create
a connection between us and the space. And
you can see it when people start using
possessive terms like my table or my restaurant
(07:51):
or my my favorite place at the bar.
And the design of the environment's really important.
But as you point out, you can't overly
program great hospitality. It's almost always a really
wonderful experience that you have either with somebody
who's the host there or with with members
of your, you know, friend group or family
within an environment.
(08:12):
And in the same way that we can
attach to an environment, we can also detach.
So if we have that bad experience,
it can put that relationship we have with
the space at risk. I think we see
this a lot right now with offices with
what's happened in the last, you know, 5
or 6 years.
People maybe didn't love working in these really
(08:33):
open offices. And when more remote work started,
people detached. And you've got all these folks
within the world of corporate real estate
asking how you know, not just to get
people to come back, but how to get
people to reattach. But this is true of,
health care facilities. We see,
hospitals investing in these birthing centers so that
if somebody goes and has a baby and
(08:54):
has a wonderful experience, they're gonna use that
health system
as opposed to the other one down the
street for the next 30 years.
And it's certainly true when we get into
restaurants, hospitals,
event venues.
It's It's all about creating a great sincere
experience just like what we talked about before.
Yeah.
Yeah. My experience with going to dentists or
(09:17):
going to hospital, you have that waiting room
where you're waiting and you're looking at the
everybody's trying to just stare at the magazine
or or their iPhone
and don't I feel kind of a little
bit insecure. And but when it comes to
that,
hospitality,
when it comes to design,
how have you gone about this to resolve
the issue that people feel actually comfortable in
the hospital waiting room? What are has been
(09:39):
sort of the some techniques or thoughts that
you has gone through you in your mind?
Great question. It starts with,
addressing something that you just brought up, which
is do we know that there's common frustrations
or just experiences that people really don't like
that for some reason we all live with?
Waiting rooms are a really good example. I'm
(09:59):
gonna circle back to that in just a
second. But it's interesting that you mentioned health
care environments because,
a couple years ago, there was a general
in the US
military who put out a a request about
creating
better hospitality in the military hospitals because the
enlisted soldiers now had more choice over where
they could go. It used to be that
they could only use these hospitals.
(10:21):
And so our director of research, doctor Marcel
Osman,
did a a project, a study specifically on
health environments
looking at what hospitality might mean. It came
back to some of the principles we discussed.
It was about protection and safety, particularly in
that sort of environment. And when you're in
a waiting room, sometimes you feel really exposed
to other people. Sometimes it doesn't always feel
(10:43):
safe.
It's also about creating a degree of intellectual
or relational welcome where people can talk about
them themselves and their lives and tell their
stories, and you really you want that dynamic.
And then it is that kind of shared
table experience where we have key moments together.
I remember one very specific project because it
wasn't very long ago. We were approached by
(11:05):
a health system in the US called Jefferson
Health to help create
a better waiting room experience for their autism
center. And if you're familiar with neurodivergence
or autism,
sensory inputs are extremely
important. And so
we co designed a chair with patients who
have autism
that had kind of a textured armrest to
(11:27):
give them a little something to to kind
of stimulate their sensory experience. But the chair
had a,
kind of a screen around it, like a
panel around it, some privacy.
And,
there were some very specific facets that they
that they wanted. As an example,
pattern
pattern recognition is really important to those, with
(11:47):
autism, and so they really liked, a herringbone
type fabric. So we ended up custom creating
this chair
that provides a little bit more visual shelter,
a little bit more protection
in that environment.
And as soon as we got done, a
lot of people thought, I think I would
prefer a little more privacy, a little more
boundary in a in a health care waiting
(12:08):
facility because it's awkward. You know? You've got
you're filling out some forms about your health,
and you might be talking with your your
partner or your parent or your child about,
like, sensitive matters.
So we just have to keep coming back
to those experiences that we know are not
great, but that for some reason everybody just
lives with and begin to figure out how
(12:28):
to make them better. Yeah. Yeah. But can
you also share some examples where design element
has failed to make people, feel that they
they belong? That could be very interesting because
you mentioned now,
the the success part of it
in design.
Yeah. Well, I think we need to be
mindful that the physical design of an environment
sends a message to people. And and, sometimes
(12:50):
we'll use the term belonging cues. Like, what
what,
alerts you when you walk into an environment
that this space is for you or not?
So sometimes in an effort to really create
a premium aesthetic
experience,
we can cause some people to feel like
maybe the space isn't for them, like it's
too exclusive or that it's too masculine
(13:11):
or that it's for older people or people
of a certain ethnicity.
We have to be kind of mindful of
that.
And, I've seen it play out in lobbies
as an example of different sorts of environments
where
you walk in
and people appreciate a degree of refinement,
and there might be some nice soothing music
(13:32):
or somebody's used a scent cannon to introduce
a smell. But after you go to a
certain point, it can begin to feel like,
I'm not sure I belong here. Like, I'm
not sure. Like, I can afford to stay
at this hotel or I I came to
this this restaurant because it sounds like a
a place I would enjoy eating, or maybe
it's an office, or maybe it's a,
a school. But if it begins to feel
(13:53):
like it was designed with somebody else's taste,
somebody else's lifestyle,
somebody else's income in mind,
it can become too exclusive, basically, to the
point where we've interrupted the process of hospitality,
and we have to be really careful of
that.
We're seeing this,
interestingly in offices right now with private offices.
(14:15):
Like, private offices are still part of the
design of a lot of corporate work settings,
and they used to be very masculine and
all about expressing status and power. But as
organizations
say, actually, we'd like to see our people
collaborating more, interacting more. We want the managers
and the staff to get along better.
Having a a private office where somebody doesn't
(14:36):
feel like they can even walk through the
door safely is counterproductive.
So we're seeing even the design of, like,
a back of the
house private office
feel far more welcoming. Come in. Have a
seat. Talk to me. You know, that kind
of thing. Yeah. It's very good. My one
of my favorite examples is that I will
always remember
when I was 5 years old when I
(14:56):
had to go to the dentist with my
father.
How how it has been done with
thinking about that little little child that's going
maybe the scariest moment in their life where
they end up going to see this
dentist is gonna pull a tooth or something
like that. Anything you have any thoughts you
have about that making those kids feel comfortable?
(15:17):
Oh, yes. There's so many facets that can
help a child or the parent feel more
comfortable in a setting like that. So one
is the use of color.
You know, medical offices tend to look very
institutional.
Yeah. And they have those kind of unusual
smells because they're using disinfectants and cleaning. And
so having warmer colors, having a lot more,
(15:41):
natural elements, there's a a concept within the
world of interior design called biophilic design. It
actually extends beyond interior design, but it's basically
like, how do you bring the outdoors in?
So having more plants, having,
more natural light. You've probably seen aquariums
in health facilities before. There's been some interesting
(16:02):
research to indicate that
looking at fish in aquarium lowers heart rate.
I actually, in my own home private office
here, focus on not only plants, but I
have an aquarium just beyond
the view of my camera. So sometimes even
here, when I take meetings throughout the day,
my eyes might drift towards the fish, and
it's a positive relaxing experience. Yeah.
(16:24):
I also think that having,
you know, books and other things are are
quite common
because it's a way of mentally allowing someone
to take their focus off. I'm gonna get
a filling or a cleaning
and have a little fun reading
a children's book.
But there's also some other elements that people
might not always think about, like what we
(16:45):
talked about before. How do you allow a
parent and a child to have a little
bit of their own space
and feel like they can converse freely without
being overheard by, you know, 3 other parents
and their kids
or being too much in their space? And
that allows just, like, a certain degree of,
conversation and reassurance
that is sometimes awkward to have in environments
(17:07):
that are a little more tightly planned. You
don't really want people sitting on top of
each other in any of those sort of
spaces. So those are some of the things
that come to mind. It's great.
So you do you talked about, like, sensory
experiences.
Like, how does the, like, a touch, sound,
or even lighting
impact how people perceive comfort
and care in a space?
It's it's so important, and it's so poorly
(17:30):
understood. I I actually just was in a
conversation with an environmental psychologist, doctor Sally Augustine,
about this yesterday.
Because
the acoustics of a space, the lighting of
a space,
colors, etcetera,
all actually affect not only how we feel,
but how we interact and understand other people
in that space.
(17:51):
And so you have to just be really,
I think,
conscientious and considerate with some of these choices.
As an example,
music can be a wonderful addition to a
lot of different spaces, including,
a waiting room at a dentist as an
example.
But most of us have been in a
space where the music is a little bit
too prominent. I was at a restaurant,
(18:13):
with, some family just last week, and I
I just kept thinking it's it it was
my favorite restaurant, but they've turned up the
music a little bit too loud. Now it's
interfering with my ability to hear Yeah. Some
of the others. And I was with a
couple older relatives who I knew were really
struggling. Like, I could see those cues where
they were leaning in to try to to
to listen a little bit.
(18:34):
Lighting is critically important. It it affects our
sense of whether or not the space is
healthy,
or whether or not it's it's a place
that supports well-being.
There's even been some interesting research showing that
having just plants in a space
can cause someone to perceive that space as
far more healthier. It is because those plants
are eating up some of the carbon
(18:55):
dioxide and providing us an oxygenated
space. And if you see,
you know, a space that's really crowded and
used too much over time,
sometimes those air quality levels can get to
the point where it almost causes you a
little bit of a headache.
So fresh air,
lighting,
plants, they all communicate to someone,
(19:16):
this is a healthy place to be. Like,
whoever designed it, whoever manages it cares about
your well-being.
And as long as we're considerate with those
design choices, we can make sure that they
don't interfere with the things that people trying
to do there.
Yeah. Yeah. I think it's so important, for
instance, that, I paid a lot of attention
to to the background music or the the
background,
(19:36):
the
soundscape or whatever you like to call it.
I mean, there were days I mean, I
have to tell you quickly,
I love music. So I used to go
to watch, rock band, pop bands, and I
thought it was the greatest idea,
when I was working in in
in Lake Geneva, Wisconsin. And not far away,
there was a
event concert event place, and we had one
(19:57):
of the bands I that I had really
admired. I had a chance to see the
band
and well, called Fleetwood Mac. Now Fleetwood
Mac came for dinner, and they stayed at
the hotel. So I thought I was doing
them a favor
playing their, their album
to the,
level of sound that I like to listen
to. But they looked they were very annoyed
(20:18):
because they came for a quiet meal before,
it
was sort of a a kind of a
fundamental
mistake by me because I thought that was
doing him a favor, but I didn't understand
the contact the the the concept of what
does it actually mean to provide a very
common
sound environment. So, I mean, if anyone thinks
(20:38):
that they should put the their favorite band's
music as a background music while they are
serving the guests, I think that's
not recommended.
Yeah. And, you know, I think there's parallel
there with all of these environments where there's
televisions that are turned on. Yeah. If it's
a if it's a sports bar and I
get a chance to see all my favorite,
you know, football matches or hockey games or
(20:59):
whatever, that's great. But if I'm going into,
an office building or a school or somewhere
else
and someone's got a news program that's just
showing one image after another of everything that's
going wrong in the world,
that's
very challenging to our our psychological or cognitive
health.
And in general, we spend so much time
(21:21):
on screens right now that we've seen an
increase in this sense of loneliness,
a decrease in the sense of belonging. All
these interactions we have on screens
don't necessarily lead to a deeper type of
connection. And so
we've seen
this hunger
for all of these spaces that are very
quiet technologically.
(21:42):
Even in in offices, we're seeing more and
more,
like, large round tables, no screens in the
place just for people to go have a
conversation.
We see some similar dynamics, places where somebody
might study in a place of higher education.
It's really important to know when the technology
is helping and when it's interfering with some
(22:02):
some experience people are seeking.
Yeah. I mean, this is so important, particularly
when you have,
restaurants that have to really think
carefully that, they provide that environment that actually
people there,
don't necessarily come for watching the news. They
want to have actually quiet drink or they
want to have a quiet conversation or they
just want to,
(22:24):
be in in sort of a in every
in almost in silence and and enjoy something
that they came for. So, you know, how
important That's exactly right. Like, at a at
a hotel bar as an example,
having some TVs because there might be a
big sporting match or something is really great,
but throwing on
anything related to the news
causes people to feel,
(22:45):
that loss of safety
within an environment.
We we talk a lot about the concept
of psychological safety, which is more, like, do
you feel comfortable being yourself and expressing yourself?
But there's also this dimension that
if there's things
around you reminding you of a lack of
safety in the world, it's just very disquieting.
(23:06):
And so that can quickly become, you know,
turning a great experience into a lousy one.
Sure. Sure.
You mentioned about new neuroaesthetics.
I'm interested to
how explores how aesthetics influence our emotions
and decisions. How do you see this concept
intersecting with hospitality
design and creating memorable guest experiences?
(23:28):
Yeah. We're into a a deep cut here
because even within the world of architecture and
interior design, neuroaesthetics
is a very new and interesting relatively new
and
very interesting concept.
Basically, what we're talking about is the brain
science of how the things around us make
us feel
and how by impacting how we make us
(23:50):
feel, how it changes our behaviors and decisions.
And we have,
a a company within the Miller Knoll Collective
called Muuto, based in Copenhagen, who
years ago I think this was 2018 at
Salone, big design event,
partnered up with Johns Hopkins University here in
the States and Google
to try a really interesting neuroaesthetics
(24:13):
experiment.
They created these different spaces that had a
very different feel, a very different vibe.
And Google put these little wristbands on people,
which measured some of their biometric,
feedback.
And they didn't save the data because this
was not a study and people weren't giving
their data over, but they visualized it. And
people can actually see
(24:34):
how their bodies changed when they walked into
different sorts of spaces.
This, to me,
represents a really interesting
new frontier because if we can get a
little bit better at understanding how the design
of a space impacts
feelings
and our and our minds and our bodies
in a measurable way,
we can begin to promote even better design
(24:57):
practices.
So we've continued
our work, at Miller Knoll with what's called
the International Arts and Minds Lab at Johns
Hopkins University as well as some leading
design practitioners,
to continue to explore this. But I'll tell
you, I think it's still pretty early. Like,
we as far as sciences go, we need
a lot more data. We need a lot
(25:18):
more experimentation.
I think we know in some cases, like,
you could probably walk into
some of the world's best hotels and suggest
to me, this is the sort of ways
that these spaces make people feel because you've
been in the industry. You know it.
Someone like me, I would only speculate. But
the more that we can actually turn it
(25:38):
from an art into a little bit more
of a of a database
practice,
the more we can promote, you know, really
amazing experiences within all sorts of different environments
using architecture,
art,
sensory inputs like you just described, that sort
of thing.
Oh, that's actually fascinating. And you may as
you say, it's actually very early
on. When I visit new hotels that are
(26:00):
being opened, I mean, they could really use
some of that technology, and and and so
we're not repeating the same
situations. And and because
I'm I'm quite sensitive to when I walk
into a hotel. I mean, I I got
my antennas out, and I I start to
how does this feel? That's how I start
my my thinking, not looking at the people,
(26:21):
but just how do I feel when I
walk in. Is it does it feel welcoming?
What is it what's going on in my
mind? And and, maybe I should start to
write some mental notes every time I go
into a new place, and then maybe I
use that as a small study in one
of these days.
I think that's a great idea. Actually, even
just listing off adjectives of this these are
(26:42):
the adjectives that come to mind in this
space.
I think one of the challenges, and this
relates to many of the things we've talked
about around place attachment and belonging and neuroaesthetics,
is that
we need to design with, not just for
the people we serve. So a more participative
or a more inclusive design practice is really,
(27:03):
really important.
There's too many instances
where whoever is funding the project or whoever
is doing the design
assumes that the way they're gonna feel or
the way they're gonna experience a space is
how others are gonna experience the space. And
so
we like to try to think about
a cocreative
process where we can get people just like
(27:25):
we did with that waiting room with the
autism center. We had the patients with autism
involved in the design process.
You can do that for hotels, restaurants, offices,
schools.
It's not
a matter of asking people to make design
choices because they're not designers.
It's about trying to help understand how are
they gonna experience this. Even showing them
(27:46):
renderings or visuals or taking them to a
few other places and saying, can you tell
me how this space makes you feel? Every
once in a while, we'll do a research
project that includes what we call digital ethnography.
But, basically, what it means is
giving research participants the chance to go
capture information digitally that we see. So we
might say to someone,
(28:07):
please go take
6 pictures of the places where you feel
most comfortable or that most inspire you or
that you feel most connected to the people
you love. And what's amazing about that is
when you get those pictures,
you're seeing it directly through how they framed
that image. You're not walking in,
staring at them, seeing the space from another
(28:28):
angle, and you begin to see elements
in that design
in a new way. And so if it
were me going like let's just say I
had the chance to go open a really
nice hotel.
I would want to know how other people
experience,
the hotel when they step into that room
or when they step into the bar or
the lobby
(28:48):
in a way that
isn't isn't biased by my own experiences or
the way that I relate to other people
or I see the world. And those kind
of cocreative processes are very rare,
unfortunately,
but they yield very, very good results. We've
seen many instances
where the design choices change
(29:10):
and the customer experiences
are, you know, so much better
simply because,
you know, it's a it's a broader diversity
of perspectives.
Exactly. Yeah.
One of my favorite topics also that I
want to to touch on is sustainability
and design.
They often come together in modern hospitality and
particularly with the studio Puesta architects that I
(29:31):
work with. That is a very important aspect
of creating the sort of a sustainable human
experience as it's called, for lack of better
words. But how can spaces,
balance ecological responsibility
with the need for comfort and luxury in
your opinion?
That's a great that's a great question. And
I know leading design practitioners
are thinking about this a lot as are
(29:52):
we.
Well,
I think at the core, it gets back
to what we discussed earlier, which is this
is about well-being in the broadest sense. What
kind of choices
are being made with the design
that promotes
a really great environment and a really great
planet,
long term for the inhabitants of both? I
think the challenge is that a lot of
(30:13):
times,
really responsible design choices, like choosing products that
have
lower volatile organic compounds, you know,
basically making sure that the the products aren't
contributing to bad indoor air quality
or that they're not cheap and disposable or
gonna end up in a landfill.
Those choices might be made, but the people
who use the space might not actually know
(30:35):
that. They might not actually see it. And
so it requires a little bit of storytelling
in the same way that saying, we don't
have to wash your towels every night. There's
a more responsible option if this is what
you'd prefer.
Being able to say to someone,
you know, we've designed a space that has
more natural light because we think it's better
for you. We chose products that have a
(30:55):
high degree of recycled content because we believe
that's a more responsible choice.
In particular, I think indoor air quality, which
is which is what I just mentioned,
is,
one where people, even if they don't know
it consciously, can begin to tell that the
the elements that were chosen for a space
are healthier or not because those that have
(31:17):
more toxic compounds begin to release things into
the air that humans over time do begin
to recognize as being unhealthy or having kind
of that weird that unhealthy or having kind
of that weird
that weird smell. Sometimes when you're in a
space that has brand new paint and carpeting,
you're like, oh, I recognize this smell, but
I'm not really sure it's it's good for
me. So I think,
(31:37):
it's a matter of looking at the design
of the space, choosing the elements that go
into it,
and
being as responsible as possible. We can help
with that. And then telling the people you
serve, this is what we've chosen to do,
and it's for your well-being and ours.
Yeah.
Yeah. Let's talk a little bit about technology.
(31:58):
And, that really
hotel hospitality and hotels has been very
slow. They've been behind the curve for many
years, but suddenly,
we got COVID. And then you started to
see
keyless check ins to virtual concierge services, and
it was a bot that actually came to
have a discussion with you. And you don't
really know always know, is it a a
(32:19):
AI, or is it a a real person?
How do you think technology
enhances
or detracts from creating meaningful human connections in
these spaces these days?
Well, for me and and I should tell
you, I've probably spent,
almost half my career specifically focused on the
intersection of technology in different sort of spaces.
So I I could go on about this
(32:40):
one for a while. But technology,
when it's leveraged well, can provide both better
convenience and better experience for the person you're
serving while
saving time and money for your organization. I
think keyless entry is a really good example
where you still have an option to go
get a physical key card. Maybe you wanna
talk to the person at the front desk
(33:01):
and understand the pool hours and that sort
of thing. Or there's other times where it's
like, my plane landed at 11. I'm beat.
I just need to go to the room.
So providing choice is really excellent.
But in particular, I think we need to
be careful using any sort of technology
that's more for efficiency than it is for
experience.
(33:21):
And we can sometimes justify
technologies that save time and money with the
belief that they're improving people's experiences, but it
gets back to what we talked to before.
In a world where we
do so much through screens,
sitting in front of someone
and being able to have a little conversation
is sometimes really meaningful. Travel in particular,
(33:43):
it's a it's a lonely experience. And so
that person at the front desk,
if they're empathetic and they take that extra
couple of seconds to just ask about your
day,
there's a lot of value there. And we
need to be careful to not, you know,
scrub that value
out of the experience.
So I just think it takes a higher
degree of scrutiny. This is also another example
(34:05):
we're asking people,
hey. If we tried this technology, is this,
improving your overall experience or not? I I'll
use one other example. You know, QR codes
saw a resurgence during COVID. It's like if
there was any winners in those crazy couple
years, it was QR codes. And sometimes QR
codes can be great.
(34:27):
I could point my phone at it, get
immediately to a link, etcetera.
But I think we've all had that experience
where you go to into a restaurant and
you have questions about the menu,
and you're curious if something can be customized
to not have that sauce included, and you're
just desperate to talk with somebody who's
not only knowledgeable about the menu but interested
(34:47):
in your experience. And all you've got is
this,
you know, basically plastic covered QR code on
a table. So there's an example where
often it's outlived its usefulness.
Yeah. And it's interfering with a truly hospitable
experience, and we need to be we need
to be careful to not allow that to
happen in too many instances or else we
(35:08):
simply commoditize what we're doing. Even though the
chef might be amazing and the food might
be better, the overall experience still feels like
something you'd you'd have at a in an
airport. You know? Sure. Sure.
Besides the QR code, your, you know, your
career has also
has been involved advising on case journey experiences.
And,
what you believe is the most overlooked aspects
(35:28):
of creating a positive first
impression for for guests.
Well, it's probably inclusion.
And what I mean by that is if
I go back to those that ancient root
of hospitality
as loving the stranger
and how it's the opposite in terms of
the original Greek of of being xenophobic,
(35:48):
there's just a a need for people to
prioritize
welcoming others that are different than themselves. And
so I think
if you if you look back on the
people that you truly think are most hospitable,
that have that have had the biggest impact
on customer experiences or employee experiences,
they're usually people that really
(36:10):
sincerely are interested in
loving other people,
that are different than themselves. And so trying
to foster a sense of belonging
and trying to make sure that
the the brand strategy to, you know, the
the brand segmentation that says this is our
target market doesn't go too far. We can
have a target market or a target audience
(36:31):
for a hospitality
environment,
but we also need to try to make
sure that we're somehow not exclusionary.
I'll give you an example back in the
world of of health care. If you look
at patient rooms
and just
how challenging it is to design a great
patient room,
it's very,
(36:52):
good to think about the patient and their
experience and what they need to do if
they need help or if they're gonna eat
in the hospital bed. But they've got people
with them a lot of the time. Like,
they've got a child who's coming for a
procedure
with them, or they've got an elderly parent
or a spouse or whatever.
And so even asking the question,
what's their experience like, and how can we
(37:14):
make sure that if, you know, a 22
year old child is bringing in a parent
for some sort of procedure,
that we're attending to that person's needs. So
I just think there's a balance there. It's,
you know, brand strategy and market segmentation and
all of those tools we use to go
create brands that live,
they they still need to somehow
(37:35):
prioritize
inclusion and allowing anyone to feel like this
organization
cares about me and what I do. And
that's where those kind of participative design processes
become so critical.
Yeah. I understand that you're also the a
podcaster.
Am I right? I am. I
am. We have a a podcast called About
(37:56):
Place,
which is just that. It's about the places
we inhabit.
We have focused a lot on different types
of workplaces
and employee experiences, and some of that I
think would would be very true for back
of the house sort of environments and hotels
as an example.
But we introduce a lot of broader concepts.
So we talk about neuroaesthetics. We talk about
place attachment.
(38:17):
We just had a an episode where we
unpacked the concept of psychological safety with, really,
the world's expert on it, Amy Edmondson from
Harvard,
and just talked about how
being in person together in different sorts of
environments
allow people
to feel a greater sense of psychological safety,
which allows them to take smarter risks. So
(38:38):
tying those in person experiences to innovative outcomes
was, you know, really interesting conversation.
So, yeah, that's the kind of things we
dive into.
And like you, I really
I just love the experience of being a
host because it gives us a chance to
allow other people to share what they're thinking
about, which benefits all of us. Yeah. It's
(38:59):
a great learning experience.
Absolutely.
Any surprising insights that you have learned about
hospitality
from someone outside the industry
while you have,
interview them on on on your podcast?
Oh, on the podcast.
Well,
a few things come to mind. One is,
(39:19):
we actually dedicated an episode.
I usually have guests from outside of our
organization all over the world, but I had
our head of research who's on our team,
who I mentioned before, doctor Michelle Osman, come
and talk a little bit about that research
around hospitality
in health care environments. And I think about
it a lot because Michelle,
(39:39):
in doing that work, really took a pretty
comprehensive and
and historical approach to understanding hospitality.
And she she made it pretty clear right
off the bat, if we're thinking
food, drink, accommodations,
we should not start there. We need to
think about,
the relationship between a host
(40:00):
and a guest in the broadest sense of
the word. Even somebody who's working in, like,
let's just say,
a university,
if they're going to use a building in
another part, becomes like a guest. And whoever
is resident in that other facility becomes like
a host. And so the more that Michelle
unpacked that in that episode, I was already
(40:22):
familiar with the research, but she had such
depth of understanding that I kept having these
moments where I was like, yes.
That is definitely something,
broader. But the other person who comes to
mind is that we have this wonderful relationship
with
a lot of different researchers and designers and
thinkers. And one of them, her name is
Debbie Levich, she leads
(40:44):
talent research and consulting for the consulting firm
Boston Consulting Group. In fact, I'm gonna be
with her next week,
working on a few things.
One of the things that she and her
team have been promoting
is that we should look at employees in
an organization
as a type of customer.
And we should take the same customer experience
(41:06):
lens and begin to ask,
what does this mean for our employees? And
some of this is around
retention and engagement and what is known as
discretionary effort, like the degree to which somebody
really invests in their role. But it reminded
me a little bit of Danny Meyer's book,
Setting the Table, and this idea of enlightened
hospitality, where
the hospitality, where
the better experiences you can create for employees,
(41:30):
the better experiences they can create for others.
And Debbie has gotten into this way beyond,
one type of space. I mean, she's looking
into
all sorts of different work environments
and how treating employees as customers can actually
yield better
experiences for the people that we traditionally think
of as customers.
(41:51):
Wonderful. Well, I think, this should be a
very good
opportunity now for all the viewers and listeners
to listen in to your podcast. You have
some terrific guests, and I'm certainly gonna subscribe
after this. So this is gonna be great.
But, Ryan, I think, really, this has been
a great discussion,
and I think I could go on for
another few hours because there we could evolve
(42:12):
into
in deeper and dive into several topics here.
But I want to just say that,
I really appreciate that you had to take
the time today. And if people want to
reach out to you, how can they, find
you, and where they should they go?
Sure. There's a few different ways. We publish
a lot of our insights, including most of
what we've talked about today on millerknoll.com
(42:34):
under the insights tab.
I'm very active on LinkedIn. So Ryan Anderson,
Miller Knoll on LinkedIn. You'll see me sharing
different, you know, insights pretty much daily. And
then I also write a, a monthly column
for Forbes online, which if you go, and
just Google Forbes Ryan Anderson, you can see
some of what, some of what we're writing
(42:55):
there. And in particular, those articles are meant
to be easily shared with
with people who maybe don't think as much
about the design of environments. You know, a
a chief financial officer or a head of
HR or whatever who might,
you know, gain a greater appreciation for just
how impactful these spaces can be when framed
more in business language. So that's what I
(43:17):
do there.
Very good. Well, Ryan, again, thank you so
much. I appreciate that you joined today and
and today's episode. Thanks for all your fantastic
insights.
It was a pleasure. I'm I'm very grateful
for you and the fact that you had
me today. Thanks.
Thank you for tuning in to the Social
Hotelier. If you enjoy this episode, please take
a moment to leave us a review on
(43:38):
Apple Podcast, which you can do with your
mobile device. If you watch this episode on
YouTube, well, I don't mind if you give
it a thumbs up. And in fact, if
you subscribe to it, because you can see
that I have a lot of good get
great guests here.
So please subscribe so you can get keep
updated.
So this will help me to get more
guests for this show in the future. So
we have an incredible lineup of guests coming
(44:00):
your way. So stay tuned for more thought
provoking conversations like we had today. So until
next time, take care and keep exploring.
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