August 12, 2024 • 51 mins
Elaine Brammer, a seasoned business, marketing, and brand perception storyteller, has crafted inspirational stories for companies such as Microsoft and Schneider Electric (among others). She has also authored the book, “Unforgettable: New Rules for Business Storytelling” where she does a fantastic job of sharing her unique storytelling approach that helped her create award-winning content for Fortune 100 companies.
In this episode of The Starfish Storytellers, Elaine gives listeners an abundance of tips and tricks for developing their corporate storytelling muscles. She explains how to enhance case studies by using stories FIRST in sales calls. She guides us down the “So, what?” trail to unearth the best stories. And she tells us how to master the release form so content can be shared with the world. Don’t miss this episode!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to the Starfish Storytellers, the podcast that makes a difference one story at a time by bringing storytelling to life.
(00:20):
My father never talked much about the war except once.
I came home from high school with an assignment to write an essay on World War II and for some reason he just started talking.
I already knew he'd been a tail gunner and that he served in the South Pacific, but I knew little else.
I'd heard from aunts and uncles that he was shot down behind enemy lines and I had spied the medals he had hidden in an old dresser.
(00:46):
But the only comments coming from him were the sad funny kind, like when he talked about the K rations which he said everybody griped and complained about right up until they ran out.
Then he'd laugh.
And he wasn't too fond of parachutes which he said were so moldy from their time in the jungle that he didn't trust them.
(01:07):
So every time they were shot down, which apparently was quite a bit, the crew would vote on whether to jump out or ride it down.
Dad said there weren't enough men on the plane to throw him out, so they always rode it down.
But this time the conversation was different.
I learned that bombing runs were par for the course.
The planes would fly in underneath the radar, hoping to hit their military target and escape before being shot down.
(01:34):
He said that after basic training he was sent to gunnery school in Harlingen, Texas.
He talked about being put in a large tent, blindfolded, and taught to disassemble and reassemble a machine gun in under two minutes.
Sometimes the instructors would throw in something that simulated smoke to make their eyes and lungs burn.
(01:55):
I learned that the watches they were given were water resistant, allowing the crew to measure elapsed time after a crash landing in the water.
Supposedly the B-24 would float for at least two minutes before sinking, so they were instructed to exit calmly and swim away.
The reality for my dad was that the plane often sank in less than 30 seconds, so you had to pile out and swim real fast not to be sucked down with the plane.
(02:23):
One time he was shot down on an island which was near the front line.
This particular island kept passing back and forth between Japanese and American control, and unfortunately when he was shot down it was under Japanese control.
He was the only crash survivor and had to figure out how to stay alive while also not being caught.
(02:44):
Eventually the Americans retook the island, and he said one of the scariest parts of the war was walking into camp hoping the troops wouldn't shoot him before they figured out who he was.
He said he found something to tie onto a very long stick and he held it real, real high when he entered the camp.
Once the military verified his ID, they sent him back to his unit.
(03:06):
And when the war ended, he spent time on the ground helping to release Americans held in Japanese POW camps.
He spoke of men kept in holes in the ground with bars over the top and buckets of large ants dumped under their heads.
He said the POW camps were the worst thing he saw during the war.
So much of that story was foreign to me.
(03:28):
I'd never traveled south of Nebraska, and I had certainly never heard of Harlingen, Texas, yet the name was fixed in my mind.
Decades later I discovered a list of World War II gunnery schools.
Las Vegas, Tyndall, Florida, Kingman, Arizona, Laredo, Texas, Yuma, Arizona, and Harlingen, Texas.
(03:49):
I read about gunnery training, which included disassembling and reassembling a machine gun in the dark and under duress in under two minutes.
I learned that parachutes were unreliable on the Pacific front because the mold built up in the damp jungle environment and the parachutes often failed to open.
I read that military watches were water resistant, that bombing runs were low to avoid the radar, and that Japanese POW camps were infamous for their brutality.
(04:18):
I also learned that the life expectancy of a tail gunner was four to six weeks. He hadn't told me that part.
But what really stuck with me is how well I remembered what he said.
If I had read those locations of gunnery schools in a high school textbook, I'm pretty sure I would have struggled to remember that information for a quiz even two weeks later.
(04:39):
Yet after many, many years, I could recall the name of an obscure farm town in south Texas with a military base.
I don't even remember which year I took American history, or who the teacher was, or much of anything else about that class.
It's hard to get human brains to retain information.
It requires repetition, repetition, repetition, and then even sometimes it fails to stick.
(05:05):
But stories are different. Stories are engaging, memorable, and inspirational.
And in business, they drive brand impressions skyward. In a nutshell, there's good reason for corporations to tell stories.
It's simply great business.
(05:42):
Hello, my name is Liana Henry and welcome to the Starfish Storytellers.
I'm the CEO of the Black Dog Group, a MarCom and project management firm headquartered on the east coast of the US in quaint colonial Bedford, Massachusetts.
I'm your host and passionate about storytelling.
I'm actually on a mission to raise up the next generation of storytellers.
(06:03):
We've named ourselves Starfish Storytellers after the Starfish Story.
The moral of the Starfish Story is based on the power of one.
No matter how big the challenge, each action we take makes a difference and has an impact.
One step, one starfish, or one story at a time.
Every episode, we welcome a new storyteller who will share their story meant to inspire and connect with you.
(06:26):
Then we'll break it down and offer tips for any listeners who are ready to tell their own stories.
So thanks for tuning in. Now let's get started.
Today's episode is about crafting unforgettable business stories, practical storytelling advice for marketers.
And we've got a really special show for you.
With me today is Elaine Brammer, seasoned storyteller in the world of business, marketing, and brand perception,
(06:49):
who has crafted inspirational stories for companies such as Microsoft, Rolls Royce Aerospace, Schneider Electric, and United Health Group.
She is the author of the new book, Unforgettable New Rules for Business Storytelling,
where she does a fantastic job of sharing her unique storytelling approach that helped her create award-winning content for Fortune 100 companies.
(07:13):
We are thrilled to have you. Thank you so much for being here.
Absolutely. You're welcome. I am very happy to meet a fellow storyteller and very happy to be here.
Thank you. So we like to get started by having our guests introduce themselves.
So would you mind telling our listeners a little bit more about you?
Sure. I grew up writing stories. My mother was an English teacher.
(07:38):
And so we shared this love of storytelling. My education, though, is in electrical engineering. I have a BSEE.
So my career sort of evolved over time.
And eventually I was fortunate enough to kind of blend those two things that I love, which is technology and storytelling, into business storytelling.
(08:00):
My education helped me to be able to talk to any product manager or researcher and understand the solution at a technical level.
Then my love for storytelling helps me craft those stories that resonate at a human level.
And sometimes the marketing world kind of struggles with that.
(08:22):
Yes. And you would be surprised that marketers struggled with that because that's part of what we do is tell stories.
Thank you so much for your story about your dad and his military background and what he...
(08:43):
I mean, you just never know what they go through.
I think so much of that generation didn't really talk at length about their experiences.
That whole piece about the parachute not opening...
Wow. So I just thank you so much for just sharing all of that and just tying it back to this is why you were able to remember that piece of history,
(09:12):
because you heard the stories and stories make everything more memorable.
So while storytelling is hailed as an important business skill that everyone should work on and not just us marketers, there's still a lot of room for improvement.
And as I've said it on this podcast many times, storytelling connects people on an emotional level and can persuade audiences to take action.
(09:38):
Business storytelling is an inspiring way to build relationships with customers and the greater community while staying true to the brand.
Can you elaborate on that at all?
Sure. What you said is so true. There is still room for improvement in business storytelling.
In fact, most content that marketing continues to produce is very carefully curated information.
(10:06):
Because traditional content focuses on telling the value of their product or service from a corporate point of view.
This is tradition. In business, we're really good at crafting and repeating key messages.
We focus on features and benefits. We zero in on proof points.
Ideally, everybody's aligned on the talking points, but then it ends up a little disjointed and disconnected because it's really just a regurgitation of information.
(10:35):
And it's terribly difficult for the human brain to actually absorb and retain that information, let alone care about it.
But that same content wrapped into a story has a completely different effect.
I'll give you an example. I was asked by a health care company to create a video story for one of their products.
(10:57):
What they had was a cloud-based glucose monitoring service, and the traditional path would be to contact one of their clients.
In this case, that would be a physician and ask that physician to tout the benefits of the product.
And we would probably go interview them on camera. We might interview.
We would craft the questions to kind of align with our key talking points.
(11:19):
And then you call the very best sound bites.
Often there's a carousel of speakers, lay them all end to end and call it a story.
But it isn't a story and it doesn't drive a connection.
So instead, I found this wonderful physician who specializes in high risk pregnancies.
She loved the product. And we worked together to identify a patient with a memorable story.
(11:46):
We landed on this woman who had suffered through five fail IVF pregnancies, five.
She had type two diabetes. She was pregnant and this time with twins.
So the physician set her up with 24 seven glucose monitoring, which helped her to keep her sugar levels in range.
And she delivered two healthy babies. And it was a way better storyline.
(12:09):
It actually was a storyline because everyone relates to babies and not very many people really care about a list of features and benefits
or cloud based analytics unless they're in the market to buy exactly that.
And they're comparing manufacturers for a product they've already decided to buy.
And the benefit of a story is it just broadens the top of the sales funnel.
(12:32):
It improves brand impression. And then when a customer has a need, they think of your company first.
They think of it as best. So they call you.
Then they can get down to comparing your key benefits and differentiators in order to make that final decision.
But you've already got a head start because you told them a story.
Mm hmm. It reminds me of and I'll talk more about it probably later in the show.
(12:58):
But I it reminds me of a storytelling seminar that I did with some product managers.
And I was I had done sort of the whole section on the frameworks first.
And then I was using some of their recorded presentations to show who had storytelling in it and who didn't.
And the issue was they they are very good at giving examples but not as good as wrapping the story into that and really weaving that in.
(13:33):
And so I was able to kind of lay them out side by side and say, you know, here's somebody who's talked about, you know, they they were they were talking about product design.
And they were talking about the software tools for the product design.
And, you know, one person had told this whole story of like the person in the factory and they had this, you know, this issue.
(13:55):
And then they handed it off to the other manager and then the manager found another issue.
And, you know, they came back and they talked it through.
And how is that going to impact their customers that they were helping?
And, you know, they laid out this whole story.
So you felt like you were in the factory with them.
This other person basically just walked through and just gave the example and walked through sort of this does this.
(14:19):
You know, put the mouse here. This does this.
And, you know, I can tell the story because I remember the factory worker where I didn't, you know, there was no other story and I could, you know, I could lay that out.
And I think the more you can point out where the stories are, I think people start to make a connection.
I mean, have you found that with your clients? Like, once you can point out to them, because I think that's why you wrote this book.
(14:45):
I'm going to ask you that in a second anyway.
Was that people don't always know what a story is and what a story isn't.
They absolutely don't.
And it's kind of I think of marketing as kind of an apprenticeship model where newbie marketers come in and they learn from more senior marketers exactly the types of content that are created and how they would create them.
(15:13):
They learn about the messaging framework and they learn how to weave that into the content and it becomes kind of a factory model, apprentice factory model.
And an actual authentic story is so far outside that model that it's hard for them to understand what you're talking about.
(15:35):
And so they might say, oh, it's human. So they'll put in one sentence that references a human and think, I draw the story.
It's actually know that it still isn't a story, or they'll make the language more conversational, or they'll use more visuals, but the narrative is still flat and linear and informational.
(15:59):
Let's talk a little bit about case studies, because that's what we use as marketers.
So in your case studies chapter, you remind us where these pieces of content is it you just sort of said that it's their informational, they're not inspirational and we'll talk more about the inspirational side of it.
And, and you actually don't advise in merging case studies and stories.
(16:23):
Can you talk a little bit more about why.
Sure.
Well, anyone who's created a case study knows the format. It's rigid.
There's a situation, then a solution, then the awesome results. What they might not know is that case studies are actually a research tool.
It's borrowed from the social sciences. And because of that they're very, very rigid, and they're number centric.
(16:50):
So a case study, whether it's a research report or a marketing piece, follows the exact same format. There's a tiny introduction, then again, the very next case study does the same thing.
Here's the situation. Here's the solution here the results and this is the conclusion. The narrative flow is flat, linear, and it's sequential. It's rigid.
(17:11):
It's formulaic. It's full of facts and figures, features and benefits, lots of numbers. In a nutshell, it's built to be product centric.
But we just learned a story is actually human centric, and nothing will kill a story faster than facts and figures, features and benefits, key talking points, they're kind of anti-story.
(17:34):
That doesn't mean you have to choose story or case study, which I think has been one of the most difficult things for people to understand.
Because they're locked into these case studies, it's like, we can't quit doing case studies. They have all this value.
Yes, they do. Don't stop making them. Make another piece of content. Because stories and case studies actually live beautifully alongside each other.
(18:01):
And whenever I do an interview for a story, I also capture the product information and the benefits.
Part of that is to ensure there are no technical inaccuracies in the story. But also, I want to provide the background for an ancillary case study.
And I find the best approach is to use your video budget. Create this bang up, highly engaging, inspirational story.
(18:25):
That's how you connect with the broad audience and you make them want to hear more. And then you create a written case study that provides that granular detail to make the final evidence for a purchase decision.
But you don't try to make one tool serve both functions because it doesn't work that way.
(18:46):
So a case study is telling the value of a product or service from a corporate point of view. Stories tell it from a human point of view.
And you simply can't create a single piece of content from two wildly divergent points of view and hope to do them both justice.
So they just don't mix. So you're saying you're saying do the story first?
(19:13):
Always do the story first because the story will be better. And here's the reason. When you do that initial interview, you get past all the data, you get past all the info and you find the spark.
And you go down all the little trails and you find out why is that important? What happened? Who used it? What happened with them? What was the benefit? Why did why did they want this?
(19:40):
And finally you find at the bottom of the trail the story. And if you go and do all the information, you create the case study and come back.
Okay, now we want to know. I don't know. It's just kind of stale at that point. And you're overusing the customer. You could have done this all at once.
And usually when you interview them, they give you the information first anyway. So once you've developed that rapport, find the storyline and then create that video because that's the first piece of content you want to use anyway.
(20:15):
You want the world to know how great your brand is and what it's doing to help people.
And then when you get further on down, you get closer to the customer and they're actually ready to buy a product. And then you say, and oh, by the way, here are the specifics of why this works so well and why you should buy our product.
(20:38):
And so it's a more natural progression. And I think people just speak better if you get the story first.
Yeah, yeah. I always tell people when I'm training them, it's like, start your presentation with a story and your presentation with a story. You're going to get them, you'll get their attention and then you've got their listening ears on.
(21:00):
And then you round it out and wrap it up and they feel really good about it after. I think it's really interesting what you're saying. As you were talking, I was thinking about, you know, I had to do a research white paper.
It was a big analysis and, you know, it's all the problem solution, you know, all of that, you know, all of the analysis, everything.
(21:22):
And then there were all the references that went towards the middle end of it. And you're talking and I was like, you know, I don't think any of them were a story.
You know, I think they were all, you know, oh, we're this company. This is what we do. When we use this product, you know, we were able to, you know, boost business by this much percentage or something like that.
(21:48):
And that was it, you know.
So I think that's wonderful. And I think, you know, the next question I had too is about how the people that you're writing this book for.
You know, in the book you write that and I've seen you actually post this as well.
(22:12):
Adding executive summaries, pull quotes, photos, upgraded or creative fonts doesn't automatically turn a case study into a story.
Like you can slap a wrapper on it, but when you open it, it's still not, there's no story.
Can you talk to us a little bit about, so my question was, how are sales and marketing folks who've used case studies, what are they doing wrong?
(22:35):
And, you know, you'll hear sort of that customer, they talk about customer story, they try to weave customer story into it.
So it's two questions here. What makes a great customer story and should they be using that instead?
I think you sort of kind of answered that already because you said get the story first and then get your case study.
(22:56):
You know, I've dealt with case studies where people do try to sort of slap the story on top or in the middle somewhere,
but it sort of breaks up the layout and the sort of flow of the case study.
And as you're talking, I'm like, yeah, that so didn't work when we did that.
(23:20):
When I was working for this company, I was like, yeah, that didn't work. It just didn't flow.
Yeah, I would say understanding the difference between a case study and a story, that they're actually two completely different things.
And that you can create both. So it isn't, oh, how should I change this to make it into a story?
(23:43):
Case studies are working as case studies. They're built for a business decision maker to make a final choice.
Now, that doesn't mean that conversational language isn't appreciated.
You know, dole style language, just nobody likes to read that. Doesn't mean we don't like pull quotes.
(24:04):
Can you make this a little more visually interesting? Maybe some photos. Yeah, sure. That's great.
So now you've made the case study more approachable, but it's still a case study.
So I think the single biggest turning point is understanding that they're actually two different types of content and you create both kinds.
(24:26):
Don't try to make one turn into the other because you don't do either one justice at that point.
Right. And I think going back to I think what you said, this came out of a whole different industry.
You know, this was a research tool and I don't remember a lot of stories in research tools.
(24:47):
So that makes perfect sense as to why they're two separate things.
Yeah, you just have to figure out what is my purpose for this piece of content.
If my purpose is to expand the audience and elevate brand impression, I'm going to tell a story.
If my purpose is to provide granular data to help close a deal, I'm going to create a case study.
(25:10):
Yeah, two completely different purposes. Yeah. Yeah.
I did a seminar for a sales team and we were talking customer stories, you know,
and that's sort of how they share customer stories really does show the company's credibility
because they understand their customers' pain points and they can show how they were able to make a difference
(25:37):
and they were able to solve problems, which is what sales does is to solve problems.
Yeah. And I love how marketing decided that changing the label would change the content.
So a lot of places say, don't call them case studies, call them customer stories.
Well, okay. They're still not a story. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. They're more of a testimonial.
(26:01):
But yeah, changing the label doesn't change the content.
I find that corporate sales, I've seen sort of varying.
I don't want to use the word expertise, but I find that some corporate sales folks use the case study as a case study as it was intended.
But I've also had corporate sales folks who will take the case study and try to pitch it as a story.
(26:28):
And it's lacking. It is.
I found one of the most effective things you can do is hand the sales team an amazing customer video that tells an actual story
and then hand them that ancillary written case study.
Then they go into a presentation and nothing's more dull than here.
(26:53):
Let me feed you a bunch of information, all these specs about why our product is great.
So you open with this amazing story. You have their intention.
You have their attention. And now they're like, oh, that's really cool.
Then you just slide that written case study across the table and go. And this is how we while we do that.
(27:15):
Right. Yep. Yeah. That seems like the proper order to be able to close the deal.
But storytelling should be a part of that 100 percent. 100 percent.
So in this book, we have a lot of usable charts and lists throughout.
I found that the informational versus inspirational content one was very interesting.
(27:40):
I'm going to put you on the spot. I saw in the first list podcasting was there. I didn't see it in the chart.
I know that podcasting is sort of the means, but it is audio storytelling.
So where would you put it? Well, I would say it depends on the podcast.
(28:01):
So a podcast is similar to how I indicated a blog or social media and that it might be inspirational, but it's likely more informational.
For example, a corporate blog might be used to help launch a product with all those features and benefits.
You could even have a podcast and talk with somebody about all those features and benefits.
Or maybe it's super high elevation piece. You could talk about vision and roadmaps, which might get kind of technical pretty quickly.
(28:30):
Podcasts have an advantage over blogs or even social because they're so conversational.
So it allows you to get into a story if you want to. They're two way.
Yet a lot of podcasts I hear don't take advantage of that and they stick with the information and they're pretty scripted.
(28:52):
Rarely do I hear an inspirational podcast, but that doesn't mean they couldn't be.
And you've actually done a really good job of incorporating a story with an interview. And that's a great approach. I think that works.
Well, thank you. In the list, I noticed that there were a lot more informational check marks than they were inspirational types of content.
(29:17):
And sometimes marketers may not know how to categorize their content. So you went in and shared some key indicators for both.
Can you talk a little bit about the differences and where storytelling is kind of filling in the gaps?
Sure. And I do think that one of the biggest challenges and most important is to be able to categorize your content to start, because that's how you identify where you have a gap.
(29:48):
Because if you have a content strategy, you probably know all the content that you have and where it lives.
You can then categorize that and decide, oh, where are the gaps? And those key indicators really help.
So you can ask yourself, does this piece of content answer the questions that a potential buyer might ask? Is it heavy with numbers? Is it product centric?
(30:14):
Could I come out of that and maybe create a key learnings list from that content? Maybe even an infographic. Is it told from a corporate perspective?
If the answer to most of those questions is yes, that is informational content. On the other hand, you can ask yourself, would most people care about this topic?
(30:37):
Would it stir an emotional response? Would they be likely to remember it? How memorable is it? Is it told from a human perspective?
And if you can say yes to those questions, then you have a piece of inspirational content.
Do you find that... I'm going to pick on product marketers, managers some more.
(31:02):
Do you feel like you've been able to run those questions by, say, a product manager or even a product marketer?
Can they say yes to the inspirational side?
I have seen fairly significant marketing organizations that I would say do not have a single piece of inspirational content until they get to the Uber brand level.
(31:35):
And they just... that's where they tell their stories. And they don't understand that there's incredible opportunity to tell those stories at a product level. They just don't do it.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was thinking about a company that there was a lot of stories sort of on the HR level.
(32:00):
There was way less stories on the product level.
Yeah. And I think part of that is it's kind of you don't know what you don't know. So there aren't a lot of good examples of actual customer stories, not case studies that are called customer stories.
There aren't a lot of really good examples of stories at the product level. And so once you fight your way through and create one or two or three, and they go, oh, that's different.
(32:37):
You have to show them a different way to do something sometimes before you can even have the conversation.
Yeah. Yeah. And then of course it becomes a template at that point.
Right. Yeah. Yeah. Which is actually about the worst thing you can do to a story is turn it into a template.
Right. But that's why we need books like this because it breaks through that. There's plenty of examples in here.
(33:11):
And I think what I found when I was reading the book was it just made me think about ways that I had not been organizing things to be able to tell stories.
So I think those things were super helpful.
(33:33):
So I talked about my storytelling seminar, and it was for product managers going to a trade show. They were going to present in front of their customers. They wanted to hone their presentations.
And so we talked a lot about the hero of the story. And the hero of the story was not the product, not their company, but it was their customer or their customer's customer when they're talking to the customer.
(34:01):
You shared ways that corporate teams and storytellers can figure out how to take data and make it memorable with storytelling.
So in cases like this, what path do you recommend taking when trying to unearth a good story? How would a marketer ensure the needle climbed in the inspirometer?
(34:22):
Is that how you say it?
That's how I say it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's basically just measuring the inspiration level, which is what you're looking for in a story. And that's a really good question.
For me, I think the trick is to follow what I call the so what trail until you find a story worth telling.
(34:44):
So the story about the diabetic woman with five failed IVF pregnancies, we could have focused on how those data entries of glucose levels landed in the patient file so that the physician could see them.
But frankly, by the time the physician reviewed the data, it might be too late to affect the outcome.
(35:06):
And we know that high blood sugars can happen late at night with serious consequences. So that's not a great trail to follow.
Or we could have zeroed in on the 24 seven cloud based information gathering.
But so what? Why is that a value?
Well, there are trained people who are able to monitor that data real time. Any critical alerts that can take immediate action, medication adjustments, even send the patient to an ER. But again, that's the question.
(35:37):
So what? Well, high blood sugar kills unborn babies. So the continual monitoring and quick action actually saves lives.
Now you've gotten down to the answer to the so what question. So that's the story that should be told.
Yep, it's taking it all the way down to the human level.
(35:58):
All the way down.
All the way down. Yeah.
In the Tools of the Trade chapter, you break all of that down into the quadrant, the intensity and the interest quadrant.
So can you sort of walk people through that? You talked about the so what. But it's like in the quadrant, there's people who really care about something, people who only care a little bit about it, people who they're not having any reaction to it.
(36:31):
Can you talk about sort of, you know, walk us through the method, this whole quadrant idea, then how you had laid it all out. But then, you know, this is how we choose stories. What qualities should they also be including as they're rounding all of this out?
Sure, the impact quadrants you can just think of as a big square that then is cut into four pieces. So you have four squares within a square. And so you have these four quadrants. And there's one quadrant that's ideal for storytelling.
(37:06):
So imagine on the horizontal axis, you're measuring interest, how many people care about this topic. And on the vertical axis, you're measuring intensity, like how much do they care about it. And it comes to light pretty quickly.
It's like, well, bottom right quadrant, a lot of people care a little tiny bit about whether people should jaywalk or not. Well, you're not going to use that for any kind of story.
(37:37):
Bottom left, not very many people care and the ones that do, they don't even care very much. Well, that's a complete dud. But when you get into the top two quadrants, that's where you can find the best content.
The top left means that maybe not that many people care about it, but they care a lot. These tend to make your good case studies because it's people that are really nerdy into your data, your product, your whatever.
(38:08):
They have a need for it. There aren't that many of them. We're not comparing this to the whole world, but they care a lot about it.
Those make great informational pieces. When you get to the top right quadrant, that's where the great stories live because everybody cares about them and they care about them a lot.
So these topics are like poverty, health, access to education, transportation or environmental issues, things like this, things that are more universal and people tend to get riled up about them.
(38:41):
That's where the great stories are. So you can just kind of measure, oh, I have this idea, ask yourself two questions. How many people care about this? Rank it zero to 10.
And how much do they care? Rank it zero to 10. You can tell really fast what quadrant they're in. And then you can decide if it makes a great story or not.
(39:03):
When I was looking at it, I was thinking about, I think one of the things as marketers that we face, as we are putting together any sort of content, is to think about who's the audience, where is it going and what's the purpose.
(39:25):
And when you do any sort of competitive analysis or market analysis to get a good sense of who your audience is so that you can shape your piece of content.
I love that you said keep it universal. When you can talk about those more universal themes, you're going to be able to cast this wider net. And once you have their attention, like you said, then you can hand them all the content and all the data, all the facts and figures.
(40:01):
And I kind of think of it this way. You've got a topic in your head that you want to talk about. If you told that to your elderly aunt or the bartender that you run into or anyone else just on the street, are they going to just be staring at you like how long are you going to keep talking or are they going to care?
(40:27):
And if they don't care, it's not a story.
Well, I mean, you're talking about the person on the street, right?
So you're even for corporate storytelling for business storytelling, you're saying you need to take it all the way down to that level of universal.
Yeah.
It's at the human level, it's humanity.
(40:49):
Humanity.
Yes.
Okay.
It's topics that everyone cares about. And it's surprising how many times you can actually find that. And people will think, oh no, it doesn't exist. But you think about it, think about it, think about it.
And it's like, oh, people do actually care about that because of how it affects people's lives.
(41:13):
Yeah, big thing that we talk about in the storytelling classes is when you tell a story, the parts of the brain that are processing, it's kind of like I'm aging myself here.
It's kind of like the Rolodex of stories. It's like, how does this relate to something that I've already been through or something that I know about?
(41:36):
And that's where the connection is made. And so in reading some of your examples, you talked about the IVF story in the book, and you take it down to the pain that this person went through.
And now she has an opportunity to actually finally have her babies. And anybody who, like you said, anybody that loves babies is going to be able to relate to that.
(42:08):
Or cares about women or women's health or infant health or babies or family.
And you can be a giant corporation, and your products and services are going to be making a difference at that level.
(42:32):
Absolutely. Yeah.
So I am a content creator. I'm a writer. I come from a writing background, and I do a lot of writing. And I got a kick out of the section in the chapter that talked about the thesaurus.
I hang out in thesaurus.com, and any one I mentor, I tell them, here's a website you should plan to use, like Grammarly, like thesaurus.com. You should use these websites.
(43:07):
You warned us that thesaurus is meant to remind us of options, but you're not supposed to just plug in any substitute word because context matters.
So I just remembered this story that I was the publisher of a magazine, and I had a handful of writers that worked for me, and everybody wrote news articles, and they wrote AP Style.
(43:29):
And so they would get frustrated because they were running out of synonyms for the word said every time that they had to quote someone.
And I had a writer who was a sports writer send me an article one time, and he's literally talking to some high school coach about some sport. I don't even know what it was.
And he uses the word elucidated. And I just cracked up when I saw it because I thought, yeah, and I read the article, and I was like, yeah, this coach is not elucidating right now.
(44:01):
What instances have you found, and have you dealt with this? Obviously you came from an English, you know, you know, and writing background, where excellence was not considered or evident when the messaging was crafted.
That's too funny. Yeah, I do see that sometimes kind of when the writers trying too hard, and you kind of keep coming at it from the same direction, and they could have just said, according to Frank, comma, quote, blah, blah, blah, but they're trying to replace said so they're in the thesaurus, you know, and the thesaurus is a great place to be.
(44:38):
But as writers, we can all find ourselves using this really awkward language if we're not too careful or if we try too hard, we might even use it wrong.
So I think the first rule for word choice is this if it doesn't sound natural. Don't use it.
And the second rule is if it doesn't paint the right picture. Don't use it. I can't remember the last time I used elucidating conversation probably never doesn't mean I don't know what it means.
(45:08):
But that's why I read what I write out loud, because when something shows up that's just really awkward or off base that helps me figure it out.
And, and sometimes when you see those words in a written piece like a draft of editing or something. It's, it's like the speed bump.
(45:29):
You're like,
that doesn't belong there.
Why is it yes it's very abrupt, and then you're processing the abruptness of that word, and you've lost. Yes, like the whole line. What was I reading, what was I reading.
Yeah.
So, so to wrap up I think I just wanted to ask, because you do in the last part of the book, you do talk to each person and each role, sort of, as they're trying to get those stories across the corporate finish line.
(46:05):
So the folks in the roles that you talked about communicator salespersons project managers content writers. Have they come to you about the struggles that they're facing in the corporate maze.
And what sort of it practical advice do you think is most important for them, either in general or by role.
(46:27):
I think the hurdles come to mind when I hear about the most are the review cycles and the release forms, and everybody in this big long approval cycle has a different purpose for this, you know the marketers want to make sure the latest
messaging in is in there. Customers want to make sure their messaging is in their product teams are looking, you know, it's just like, okay, you can't possibly do all these things so the trick to avoid that approval tug of war is to just get everybody on the
(47:00):
same page before you create the piece. So I always write a goal. This is what this story is about. I communicate it broadly, and then every time it's circulated, I repeat it.
So if I'm looking for input or approval. I asked them to measure against that goal, not against what they want for their own particular purposes. And then that second hurdle is that release form.
(47:28):
First I'd say never use the form legal release with a customer. Soon as somebody hears the word legal it's alarm bells. And so the first thing you do is you have a conversation with them, and they wait until they really really want to participate, because you're
going to showcase them, you're going to show them as being, you know, these wonderful hero of the story, they're going to get to use the content, they didn't even have to pay for it. And then the release form is for their benefit because you're telling them.
(48:02):
I actually cannot make this public until you give me final approval. And so I need your signature here that shows how we're going to go through that process. And then if you do your job well, your customer will shine and so will you.
Yeah, getting releases is so important.
(48:23):
I find that, like I've worked for other clients, and they didn't have release forms, but we work creating certain types of content with their customers and
getting that sort of approval takes time and it just stops the whole release of the of the content because you have to wait for it to go through all of their layers of approval.
(48:54):
Yeah, and it's frustrating I think sometimes because you know you put all the time and to create in the content and you want to be able to for them to be able to use it, you know, so.
Yes, and I usually follow a specific process so I get the customer the client and user whatever on board like yes let's do this.
(49:17):
Then I get the release form signed, where I've guaranteed to them, nothing is going public until I have your final written approval. And then, if I do my job well, they are glowing in this story, and I also when I send it for approval.
I never say, hey take a look and see if you find anything else you want to change, because if you ask a human being what else they should change they will find something to change.
(49:48):
So, I send it out and I just say we are very pleased with the results and hope you are too.
So I say, I don't even ask them for an approval, and I've never failed to get an approval. They'll come back and they'll say, this is great. Thanks so much done.
That's great.
Well, that is all the time we have for today, I just want to be thoughtful of time here and just thank you so much Elaine for for just sharing your expertise I loved your book, I strongly recommend it to marketers out there who really want to develop that
(50:29):
storytelling muscle and, and it's just, you know, it's great tools for getting organized in here and questions that you should be asking questions you probably even think you knew you knew you knew you needed to ask so, you know, thank you so much for just being
with us today.
Thank you for inviting me, I love getting questions from a storyteller because you know the right questions to ask, but we can have a conversation. So, thank you.
(50:59):
Thank you.
And to our listeners, whether you hear us locally from the BTV studios in Bedford, Massachusetts, or across the globe on such podcast channels as Spotify, Apple podcasts or Amazon Prime.
Thanks for listening. We hope you enjoyed this episode, and we'll see you next time.
Happy storytelling.
Welcome to the Starfish Storytellers, the podcast that makes a difference one story at a time by bringing storytelling to life.
(00:20):
My father never talked much about the war except once.
I came home from high school with an assignment to write an essay on World War II and for some reason he just started talking.
I already knew he'd been a tail gunner and that he served in the South Pacific, but I knew little else.
I'd heard from aunts and uncles that he was shot down behind enemy lines and I had spied the medals he had hidden in an old dresser.
(00:46):
But the only comments coming from him were the sad funny kind, like when he talked about the K rations which he said everybody griped and complained about right up until they ran out.
Then he'd laugh.
And he wasn't too fond of parachutes which he said were so moldy from their time in the jungle that he didn't trust them.
(01:07):
So every time they were shot down, which apparently was quite a bit, the crew would vote on whether to jump out or ride it down.
Dad said there weren't enough men on the plane to throw him out, so they always rode it down.
But this time the conversation was different.
I learned that bombing runs were par for the course.
The planes would fly in underneath the radar, hoping to hit their military target and escape before being shot down.
(01:34):
He said that after basic training he was sent to gunnery school in Harlingen, Texas.
He talked about being put in a large tent, blindfolded, and taught to disassemble and reassemble a machine gun in under two minutes.
Sometimes the instructors would throw in something that simulated smoke to make their eyes and lungs burn.
(01:55):
I learned that the watches they were given were water resistant, allowing the crew to measure elapsed time after a crash landing in the water.
Supposedly the B-24 would float for at least two minutes before sinking, so they were instructed to exit calmly and swim away.
The reality for my dad was that the plane often sank in less than 30 seconds, so you had to pile out and swim real fast not to be sucked down with the plane.
(02:23):
One time he was shot down on an island which was near the front line.
This particular island kept passing back and forth between Japanese and American control, and unfortunately when he was shot down it was under Japanese control.
He was the only crash survivor and had to figure out how to stay alive while also not being caught.
(02:44):
Eventually the Americans retook the island, and he said one of the scariest parts of the war was walking into camp hoping the troops wouldn't shoot him before they figured out who he was.
He said he found something to tie onto a very long stick and he held it real, real high when he entered the camp.
Once the military verified his ID, they sent him back to his unit.
(03:06):
And when the war ended, he spent time on the ground helping to release Americans held in Japanese POW camps.
He spoke of men kept in holes in the ground with bars over the top and buckets of large ants dumped under their heads.
He said the POW camps were the worst thing he saw during the war.
So much of that story was foreign to me.
(03:28):
I'd never traveled south of Nebraska, and I had certainly never heard of Harlingen, Texas, yet the name was fixed in my mind.
Decades later I discovered a list of World War II gunnery schools.
Las Vegas, Tyndall, Florida, Kingman, Arizona, Laredo, Texas, Yuma, Arizona, and Harlingen, Texas.
(03:49):
I read about gunnery training, which included disassembling and reassembling a machine gun in the dark and under duress in under two minutes.
I learned that parachutes were unreliable on the Pacific front because the mold built up in the damp jungle environment and the parachutes often failed to open.
I read that military watches were water resistant, that bombing runs were low to avoid the radar, and that Japanese POW camps were infamous for their brutality.
(04:18):
I also learned that the life expectancy of a tail gunner was four to six weeks. He hadn't told me that part.
But what really stuck with me is how well I remembered what he said.
If I had read those locations of gunnery schools in a high school textbook, I'm pretty sure I would have struggled to remember that information for a quiz even two weeks later.
(04:39):
Yet after many, many years, I could recall the name of an obscure farm town in south Texas with a military base.
I don't even remember which year I took American history, or who the teacher was, or much of anything else about that class.
It's hard to get human brains to retain information.
It requires repetition, repetition, repetition, and then even sometimes it fails to stick.
(05:05):
But stories are different. Stories are engaging, memorable, and inspirational.
And in business, they drive brand impressions skyward. In a nutshell, there's good reason for corporations to tell stories.
It's simply great business.
(05:42):
Hello, my name is Liana Henry and welcome to the Starfish Storytellers.
I'm the CEO of the Black Dog Group, a MarCom and project management firm headquartered on the east coast of the US in quaint colonial Bedford, Massachusetts.
I'm your host and passionate about storytelling.
I'm actually on a mission to raise up the next generation of storytellers.
(06:03):
We've named ourselves Starfish Storytellers after the Starfish Story.
The moral of the Starfish Story is based on the power of one.
No matter how big the challenge, each action we take makes a difference and has an impact.
One step, one starfish, or one story at a time.
Every episode, we welcome a new storyteller who will share their story meant to inspire and connect with you.
(06:26):
Then we'll break it down and offer tips for any listeners who are ready to tell their own stories.
So thanks for tuning in. Now let's get started.
Today's episode is about crafting unforgettable business stories, practical storytelling advice for marketers.
And we've got a really special show for you.
With me today is Elaine Brammer, seasoned storyteller in the world of business, marketing, and brand perception,
(06:49):
who has crafted inspirational stories for companies such as Microsoft, Rolls Royce Aerospace, Schneider Electric, and United Health Group.
She is the author of the new book, Unforgettable New Rules for Business Storytelling,
where she does a fantastic job of sharing her unique storytelling approach that helped her create award-winning content for Fortune 100 companies.
(07:13):
We are thrilled to have you. Thank you so much for being here.
Absolutely. You're welcome. I am very happy to meet a fellow storyteller and very happy to be here.
Thank you. So we like to get started by having our guests introduce themselves.
So would you mind telling our listeners a little bit more about you?
Sure. I grew up writing stories. My mother was an English teacher.
(07:38):
And so we shared this love of storytelling. My education, though, is in electrical engineering. I have a BSEE.
So my career sort of evolved over time.
And eventually I was fortunate enough to kind of blend those two things that I love, which is technology and storytelling, into business storytelling.
(08:00):
My education helped me to be able to talk to any product manager or researcher and understand the solution at a technical level.
Then my love for storytelling helps me craft those stories that resonate at a human level.
And sometimes the marketing world kind of struggles with that.
(08:22):
Yes. And you would be surprised that marketers struggled with that because that's part of what we do is tell stories.
Thank you so much for your story about your dad and his military background and what he...
(08:43):
I mean, you just never know what they go through.
I think so much of that generation didn't really talk at length about their experiences.
That whole piece about the parachute not opening...
Wow. So I just thank you so much for just sharing all of that and just tying it back to this is why you were able to remember that piece of history,
(09:12):
because you heard the stories and stories make everything more memorable.
So while storytelling is hailed as an important business skill that everyone should work on and not just us marketers, there's still a lot of room for improvement.
And as I've said it on this podcast many times, storytelling connects people on an emotional level and can persuade audiences to take action.
(09:38):
Business storytelling is an inspiring way to build relationships with customers and the greater community while staying true to the brand.
Can you elaborate on that at all?
Sure. What you said is so true. There is still room for improvement in business storytelling.
In fact, most content that marketing continues to produce is very carefully curated information.
(10:06):
Because traditional content focuses on telling the value of their product or service from a corporate point of view.
This is tradition. In business, we're really good at crafting and repeating key messages.
We focus on features and benefits. We zero in on proof points.
Ideally, everybody's aligned on the talking points, but then it ends up a little disjointed and disconnected because it's really just a regurgitation of information.
(10:35):
And it's terribly difficult for the human brain to actually absorb and retain that information, let alone care about it.
But that same content wrapped into a story has a completely different effect.
I'll give you an example. I was asked by a health care company to create a video story for one of their products.
(10:57):
What they had was a cloud-based glucose monitoring service, and the traditional path would be to contact one of their clients.
In this case, that would be a physician and ask that physician to tout the benefits of the product.
And we would probably go interview them on camera. We might interview.
We would craft the questions to kind of align with our key talking points.
(11:19):
And then you call the very best sound bites.
Often there's a carousel of speakers, lay them all end to end and call it a story.
But it isn't a story and it doesn't drive a connection.
So instead, I found this wonderful physician who specializes in high risk pregnancies.
She loved the product. And we worked together to identify a patient with a memorable story.
(11:46):
We landed on this woman who had suffered through five fail IVF pregnancies, five.
She had type two diabetes. She was pregnant and this time with twins.
So the physician set her up with 24 seven glucose monitoring, which helped her to keep her sugar levels in range.
And she delivered two healthy babies. And it was a way better storyline.
(12:09):
It actually was a storyline because everyone relates to babies and not very many people really care about a list of features and benefits
or cloud based analytics unless they're in the market to buy exactly that.
And they're comparing manufacturers for a product they've already decided to buy.
And the benefit of a story is it just broadens the top of the sales funnel.
(12:32):
It improves brand impression. And then when a customer has a need, they think of your company first.
They think of it as best. So they call you.
Then they can get down to comparing your key benefits and differentiators in order to make that final decision.
But you've already got a head start because you told them a story.
Mm hmm. It reminds me of and I'll talk more about it probably later in the show.
(12:58):
But I it reminds me of a storytelling seminar that I did with some product managers.
And I was I had done sort of the whole section on the frameworks first.
And then I was using some of their recorded presentations to show who had storytelling in it and who didn't.
And the issue was they they are very good at giving examples but not as good as wrapping the story into that and really weaving that in.
(13:33):
And so I was able to kind of lay them out side by side and say, you know, here's somebody who's talked about, you know, they they were they were talking about product design.
And they were talking about the software tools for the product design.
And, you know, one person had told this whole story of like the person in the factory and they had this, you know, this issue.
(13:55):
And then they handed it off to the other manager and then the manager found another issue.
And, you know, they came back and they talked it through.
And how is that going to impact their customers that they were helping?
And, you know, they laid out this whole story.
So you felt like you were in the factory with them.
This other person basically just walked through and just gave the example and walked through sort of this does this.
(14:19):
You know, put the mouse here. This does this.
And, you know, I can tell the story because I remember the factory worker where I didn't, you know, there was no other story and I could, you know, I could lay that out.
And I think the more you can point out where the stories are, I think people start to make a connection.
I mean, have you found that with your clients? Like, once you can point out to them, because I think that's why you wrote this book.
(14:45):
I'm going to ask you that in a second anyway.
Was that people don't always know what a story is and what a story isn't.
They absolutely don't.
And it's kind of I think of marketing as kind of an apprenticeship model where newbie marketers come in and they learn from more senior marketers exactly the types of content that are created and how they would create them.
(15:13):
They learn about the messaging framework and they learn how to weave that into the content and it becomes kind of a factory model, apprentice factory model.
And an actual authentic story is so far outside that model that it's hard for them to understand what you're talking about.
(15:35):
And so they might say, oh, it's human. So they'll put in one sentence that references a human and think, I draw the story.
It's actually know that it still isn't a story, or they'll make the language more conversational, or they'll use more visuals, but the narrative is still flat and linear and informational.
(15:59):
Let's talk a little bit about case studies, because that's what we use as marketers.
So in your case studies chapter, you remind us where these pieces of content is it you just sort of said that it's their informational, they're not inspirational and we'll talk more about the inspirational side of it.
And, and you actually don't advise in merging case studies and stories.
(16:23):
Can you talk a little bit more about why.
Sure.
Well, anyone who's created a case study knows the format. It's rigid.
There's a situation, then a solution, then the awesome results. What they might not know is that case studies are actually a research tool.
It's borrowed from the social sciences. And because of that they're very, very rigid, and they're number centric.
(16:50):
So a case study, whether it's a research report or a marketing piece, follows the exact same format. There's a tiny introduction, then again, the very next case study does the same thing.
Here's the situation. Here's the solution here the results and this is the conclusion. The narrative flow is flat, linear, and it's sequential. It's rigid.
(17:11):
It's formulaic. It's full of facts and figures, features and benefits, lots of numbers. In a nutshell, it's built to be product centric.
But we just learned a story is actually human centric, and nothing will kill a story faster than facts and figures, features and benefits, key talking points, they're kind of anti-story.
(17:34):
That doesn't mean you have to choose story or case study, which I think has been one of the most difficult things for people to understand.
Because they're locked into these case studies, it's like, we can't quit doing case studies. They have all this value.
Yes, they do. Don't stop making them. Make another piece of content. Because stories and case studies actually live beautifully alongside each other.
(18:01):
And whenever I do an interview for a story, I also capture the product information and the benefits.
Part of that is to ensure there are no technical inaccuracies in the story. But also, I want to provide the background for an ancillary case study.
And I find the best approach is to use your video budget. Create this bang up, highly engaging, inspirational story.
(18:25):
That's how you connect with the broad audience and you make them want to hear more. And then you create a written case study that provides that granular detail to make the final evidence for a purchase decision.
But you don't try to make one tool serve both functions because it doesn't work that way.
(18:46):
So a case study is telling the value of a product or service from a corporate point of view. Stories tell it from a human point of view.
And you simply can't create a single piece of content from two wildly divergent points of view and hope to do them both justice.
So they just don't mix. So you're saying you're saying do the story first?
(19:13):
Always do the story first because the story will be better. And here's the reason. When you do that initial interview, you get past all the data, you get past all the info and you find the spark.
And you go down all the little trails and you find out why is that important? What happened? Who used it? What happened with them? What was the benefit? Why did why did they want this?
(19:40):
And finally you find at the bottom of the trail the story. And if you go and do all the information, you create the case study and come back.
Okay, now we want to know. I don't know. It's just kind of stale at that point. And you're overusing the customer. You could have done this all at once.
And usually when you interview them, they give you the information first anyway. So once you've developed that rapport, find the storyline and then create that video because that's the first piece of content you want to use anyway.
(20:15):
You want the world to know how great your brand is and what it's doing to help people.
And then when you get further on down, you get closer to the customer and they're actually ready to buy a product. And then you say, and oh, by the way, here are the specifics of why this works so well and why you should buy our product.
(20:38):
And so it's a more natural progression. And I think people just speak better if you get the story first.
Yeah, yeah. I always tell people when I'm training them, it's like, start your presentation with a story and your presentation with a story. You're going to get them, you'll get their attention and then you've got their listening ears on.
(21:00):
And then you round it out and wrap it up and they feel really good about it after. I think it's really interesting what you're saying. As you were talking, I was thinking about, you know, I had to do a research white paper.
It was a big analysis and, you know, it's all the problem solution, you know, all of that, you know, all of the analysis, everything.
(21:22):
And then there were all the references that went towards the middle end of it. And you're talking and I was like, you know, I don't think any of them were a story.
You know, I think they were all, you know, oh, we're this company. This is what we do. When we use this product, you know, we were able to, you know, boost business by this much percentage or something like that.
(21:48):
And that was it, you know.
So I think that's wonderful. And I think, you know, the next question I had too is about how the people that you're writing this book for.
You know, in the book you write that and I've seen you actually post this as well.
(22:12):
Adding executive summaries, pull quotes, photos, upgraded or creative fonts doesn't automatically turn a case study into a story.
Like you can slap a wrapper on it, but when you open it, it's still not, there's no story.
Can you talk to us a little bit about, so my question was, how are sales and marketing folks who've used case studies, what are they doing wrong?
(22:35):
And, you know, you'll hear sort of that customer, they talk about customer story, they try to weave customer story into it.
So it's two questions here. What makes a great customer story and should they be using that instead?
I think you sort of kind of answered that already because you said get the story first and then get your case study.
(22:56):
You know, I've dealt with case studies where people do try to sort of slap the story on top or in the middle somewhere,
but it sort of breaks up the layout and the sort of flow of the case study.
And as you're talking, I'm like, yeah, that so didn't work when we did that.
(23:20):
When I was working for this company, I was like, yeah, that didn't work. It just didn't flow.
Yeah, I would say understanding the difference between a case study and a story, that they're actually two completely different things.
And that you can create both. So it isn't, oh, how should I change this to make it into a story?
(23:43):
Case studies are working as case studies. They're built for a business decision maker to make a final choice.
Now, that doesn't mean that conversational language isn't appreciated.
You know, dole style language, just nobody likes to read that. Doesn't mean we don't like pull quotes.
(24:04):
Can you make this a little more visually interesting? Maybe some photos. Yeah, sure. That's great.
So now you've made the case study more approachable, but it's still a case study.
So I think the single biggest turning point is understanding that they're actually two different types of content and you create both kinds.
(24:26):
Don't try to make one turn into the other because you don't do either one justice at that point.
Right. And I think going back to I think what you said, this came out of a whole different industry.
You know, this was a research tool and I don't remember a lot of stories in research tools.
(24:47):
So that makes perfect sense as to why they're two separate things.
Yeah, you just have to figure out what is my purpose for this piece of content.
If my purpose is to expand the audience and elevate brand impression, I'm going to tell a story.
If my purpose is to provide granular data to help close a deal, I'm going to create a case study.
(25:10):
Yeah, two completely different purposes. Yeah. Yeah.
I did a seminar for a sales team and we were talking customer stories, you know,
and that's sort of how they share customer stories really does show the company's credibility
because they understand their customers' pain points and they can show how they were able to make a difference
(25:37):
and they were able to solve problems, which is what sales does is to solve problems.
Yeah. And I love how marketing decided that changing the label would change the content.
So a lot of places say, don't call them case studies, call them customer stories.
Well, okay. They're still not a story. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. They're more of a testimonial.
(26:01):
But yeah, changing the label doesn't change the content.
I find that corporate sales, I've seen sort of varying.
I don't want to use the word expertise, but I find that some corporate sales folks use the case study as a case study as it was intended.
But I've also had corporate sales folks who will take the case study and try to pitch it as a story.
(26:28):
And it's lacking. It is.
I found one of the most effective things you can do is hand the sales team an amazing customer video that tells an actual story
and then hand them that ancillary written case study.
Then they go into a presentation and nothing's more dull than here.
(26:53):
Let me feed you a bunch of information, all these specs about why our product is great.
So you open with this amazing story. You have their intention.
You have their attention. And now they're like, oh, that's really cool.
Then you just slide that written case study across the table and go. And this is how we while we do that.
(27:15):
Right. Yep. Yeah. That seems like the proper order to be able to close the deal.
But storytelling should be a part of that 100 percent. 100 percent.
So in this book, we have a lot of usable charts and lists throughout.
I found that the informational versus inspirational content one was very interesting.
(27:40):
I'm going to put you on the spot. I saw in the first list podcasting was there. I didn't see it in the chart.
I know that podcasting is sort of the means, but it is audio storytelling.
So where would you put it? Well, I would say it depends on the podcast.
(28:01):
So a podcast is similar to how I indicated a blog or social media and that it might be inspirational, but it's likely more informational.
For example, a corporate blog might be used to help launch a product with all those features and benefits.
You could even have a podcast and talk with somebody about all those features and benefits.
Or maybe it's super high elevation piece. You could talk about vision and roadmaps, which might get kind of technical pretty quickly.
(28:30):
Podcasts have an advantage over blogs or even social because they're so conversational.
So it allows you to get into a story if you want to. They're two way.
Yet a lot of podcasts I hear don't take advantage of that and they stick with the information and they're pretty scripted.
(28:52):
Rarely do I hear an inspirational podcast, but that doesn't mean they couldn't be.
And you've actually done a really good job of incorporating a story with an interview. And that's a great approach. I think that works.
Well, thank you. In the list, I noticed that there were a lot more informational check marks than they were inspirational types of content.
(29:17):
And sometimes marketers may not know how to categorize their content. So you went in and shared some key indicators for both.
Can you talk a little bit about the differences and where storytelling is kind of filling in the gaps?
Sure. And I do think that one of the biggest challenges and most important is to be able to categorize your content to start, because that's how you identify where you have a gap.
(29:48):
Because if you have a content strategy, you probably know all the content that you have and where it lives.
You can then categorize that and decide, oh, where are the gaps? And those key indicators really help.
So you can ask yourself, does this piece of content answer the questions that a potential buyer might ask? Is it heavy with numbers? Is it product centric?
(30:14):
Could I come out of that and maybe create a key learnings list from that content? Maybe even an infographic. Is it told from a corporate perspective?
If the answer to most of those questions is yes, that is informational content. On the other hand, you can ask yourself, would most people care about this topic?
(30:37):
Would it stir an emotional response? Would they be likely to remember it? How memorable is it? Is it told from a human perspective?
And if you can say yes to those questions, then you have a piece of inspirational content.
Do you find that... I'm going to pick on product marketers, managers some more.
(31:02):
Do you feel like you've been able to run those questions by, say, a product manager or even a product marketer?
Can they say yes to the inspirational side?
I have seen fairly significant marketing organizations that I would say do not have a single piece of inspirational content until they get to the Uber brand level.
(31:35):
And they just... that's where they tell their stories. And they don't understand that there's incredible opportunity to tell those stories at a product level. They just don't do it.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was thinking about a company that there was a lot of stories sort of on the HR level.
(32:00):
There was way less stories on the product level.
Yeah. And I think part of that is it's kind of you don't know what you don't know. So there aren't a lot of good examples of actual customer stories, not case studies that are called customer stories.
There aren't a lot of really good examples of stories at the product level. And so once you fight your way through and create one or two or three, and they go, oh, that's different.
(32:37):
You have to show them a different way to do something sometimes before you can even have the conversation.
Yeah. Yeah. And then of course it becomes a template at that point.
Right. Yeah. Yeah. Which is actually about the worst thing you can do to a story is turn it into a template.
Right. But that's why we need books like this because it breaks through that. There's plenty of examples in here.
(33:11):
And I think what I found when I was reading the book was it just made me think about ways that I had not been organizing things to be able to tell stories.
So I think those things were super helpful.
(33:33):
So I talked about my storytelling seminar, and it was for product managers going to a trade show. They were going to present in front of their customers. They wanted to hone their presentations.
And so we talked a lot about the hero of the story. And the hero of the story was not the product, not their company, but it was their customer or their customer's customer when they're talking to the customer.
(34:01):
You shared ways that corporate teams and storytellers can figure out how to take data and make it memorable with storytelling.
So in cases like this, what path do you recommend taking when trying to unearth a good story? How would a marketer ensure the needle climbed in the inspirometer?
(34:22):
Is that how you say it?
That's how I say it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's basically just measuring the inspiration level, which is what you're looking for in a story. And that's a really good question.
For me, I think the trick is to follow what I call the so what trail until you find a story worth telling.
(34:44):
So the story about the diabetic woman with five failed IVF pregnancies, we could have focused on how those data entries of glucose levels landed in the patient file so that the physician could see them.
But frankly, by the time the physician reviewed the data, it might be too late to affect the outcome.
(35:06):
And we know that high blood sugars can happen late at night with serious consequences. So that's not a great trail to follow.
Or we could have zeroed in on the 24 seven cloud based information gathering.
But so what? Why is that a value?
Well, there are trained people who are able to monitor that data real time. Any critical alerts that can take immediate action, medication adjustments, even send the patient to an ER. But again, that's the question.
(35:37):
So what? Well, high blood sugar kills unborn babies. So the continual monitoring and quick action actually saves lives.
Now you've gotten down to the answer to the so what question. So that's the story that should be told.
Yep, it's taking it all the way down to the human level.
(35:58):
All the way down.
All the way down. Yeah.
In the Tools of the Trade chapter, you break all of that down into the quadrant, the intensity and the interest quadrant.
So can you sort of walk people through that? You talked about the so what. But it's like in the quadrant, there's people who really care about something, people who only care a little bit about it, people who they're not having any reaction to it.
(36:31):
Can you talk about sort of, you know, walk us through the method, this whole quadrant idea, then how you had laid it all out. But then, you know, this is how we choose stories. What qualities should they also be including as they're rounding all of this out?
Sure, the impact quadrants you can just think of as a big square that then is cut into four pieces. So you have four squares within a square. And so you have these four quadrants. And there's one quadrant that's ideal for storytelling.
(37:06):
So imagine on the horizontal axis, you're measuring interest, how many people care about this topic. And on the vertical axis, you're measuring intensity, like how much do they care about it. And it comes to light pretty quickly.
It's like, well, bottom right quadrant, a lot of people care a little tiny bit about whether people should jaywalk or not. Well, you're not going to use that for any kind of story.
(37:37):
Bottom left, not very many people care and the ones that do, they don't even care very much. Well, that's a complete dud. But when you get into the top two quadrants, that's where you can find the best content.
The top left means that maybe not that many people care about it, but they care a lot. These tend to make your good case studies because it's people that are really nerdy into your data, your product, your whatever.
(38:08):
They have a need for it. There aren't that many of them. We're not comparing this to the whole world, but they care a lot about it.
Those make great informational pieces. When you get to the top right quadrant, that's where the great stories live because everybody cares about them and they care about them a lot.
So these topics are like poverty, health, access to education, transportation or environmental issues, things like this, things that are more universal and people tend to get riled up about them.
(38:41):
That's where the great stories are. So you can just kind of measure, oh, I have this idea, ask yourself two questions. How many people care about this? Rank it zero to 10.
And how much do they care? Rank it zero to 10. You can tell really fast what quadrant they're in. And then you can decide if it makes a great story or not.
(39:03):
When I was looking at it, I was thinking about, I think one of the things as marketers that we face, as we are putting together any sort of content, is to think about who's the audience, where is it going and what's the purpose.
(39:25):
And when you do any sort of competitive analysis or market analysis to get a good sense of who your audience is so that you can shape your piece of content.
I love that you said keep it universal. When you can talk about those more universal themes, you're going to be able to cast this wider net. And once you have their attention, like you said, then you can hand them all the content and all the data, all the facts and figures.
(40:01):
And I kind of think of it this way. You've got a topic in your head that you want to talk about. If you told that to your elderly aunt or the bartender that you run into or anyone else just on the street, are they going to just be staring at you like how long are you going to keep talking or are they going to care?
(40:27):
And if they don't care, it's not a story.
Well, I mean, you're talking about the person on the street, right?
So you're even for corporate storytelling for business storytelling, you're saying you need to take it all the way down to that level of universal.
Yeah.
It's at the human level, it's humanity.
(40:49):
Humanity.
Yes.
Okay.
It's topics that everyone cares about. And it's surprising how many times you can actually find that. And people will think, oh no, it doesn't exist. But you think about it, think about it, think about it.
And it's like, oh, people do actually care about that because of how it affects people's lives.
(41:13):
Yeah, big thing that we talk about in the storytelling classes is when you tell a story, the parts of the brain that are processing, it's kind of like I'm aging myself here.
It's kind of like the Rolodex of stories. It's like, how does this relate to something that I've already been through or something that I know about?
(41:36):
And that's where the connection is made. And so in reading some of your examples, you talked about the IVF story in the book, and you take it down to the pain that this person went through.
And now she has an opportunity to actually finally have her babies. And anybody who, like you said, anybody that loves babies is going to be able to relate to that.
(42:08):
Or cares about women or women's health or infant health or babies or family.
And you can be a giant corporation, and your products and services are going to be making a difference at that level.
(42:32):
Absolutely. Yeah.
So I am a content creator. I'm a writer. I come from a writing background, and I do a lot of writing. And I got a kick out of the section in the chapter that talked about the thesaurus.
I hang out in thesaurus.com, and any one I mentor, I tell them, here's a website you should plan to use, like Grammarly, like thesaurus.com. You should use these websites.
(43:07):
You warned us that thesaurus is meant to remind us of options, but you're not supposed to just plug in any substitute word because context matters.
So I just remembered this story that I was the publisher of a magazine, and I had a handful of writers that worked for me, and everybody wrote news articles, and they wrote AP Style.
(43:29):
And so they would get frustrated because they were running out of synonyms for the word said every time that they had to quote someone.
And I had a writer who was a sports writer send me an article one time, and he's literally talking to some high school coach about some sport. I don't even know what it was.
And he uses the word elucidated. And I just cracked up when I saw it because I thought, yeah, and I read the article, and I was like, yeah, this coach is not elucidating right now.
(44:01):
What instances have you found, and have you dealt with this? Obviously you came from an English, you know, you know, and writing background, where excellence was not considered or evident when the messaging was crafted.
That's too funny. Yeah, I do see that sometimes kind of when the writers trying too hard, and you kind of keep coming at it from the same direction, and they could have just said, according to Frank, comma, quote, blah, blah, blah, but they're trying to replace said so they're in the thesaurus, you know, and the thesaurus is a great place to be.
(44:38):
But as writers, we can all find ourselves using this really awkward language if we're not too careful or if we try too hard, we might even use it wrong.
So I think the first rule for word choice is this if it doesn't sound natural. Don't use it.
And the second rule is if it doesn't paint the right picture. Don't use it. I can't remember the last time I used elucidating conversation probably never doesn't mean I don't know what it means.
(45:08):
But that's why I read what I write out loud, because when something shows up that's just really awkward or off base that helps me figure it out.
And, and sometimes when you see those words in a written piece like a draft of editing or something. It's, it's like the speed bump.
(45:29):
You're like,
that doesn't belong there.
Why is it yes it's very abrupt, and then you're processing the abruptness of that word, and you've lost. Yes, like the whole line. What was I reading, what was I reading.
Yeah.
So, so to wrap up I think I just wanted to ask, because you do in the last part of the book, you do talk to each person and each role, sort of, as they're trying to get those stories across the corporate finish line.
(46:05):
So the folks in the roles that you talked about communicator salespersons project managers content writers. Have they come to you about the struggles that they're facing in the corporate maze.
And what sort of it practical advice do you think is most important for them, either in general or by role.
(46:27):
I think the hurdles come to mind when I hear about the most are the review cycles and the release forms, and everybody in this big long approval cycle has a different purpose for this, you know the marketers want to make sure the latest
messaging in is in there. Customers want to make sure their messaging is in their product teams are looking, you know, it's just like, okay, you can't possibly do all these things so the trick to avoid that approval tug of war is to just get everybody on the
(47:00):
same page before you create the piece. So I always write a goal. This is what this story is about. I communicate it broadly, and then every time it's circulated, I repeat it.
So if I'm looking for input or approval. I asked them to measure against that goal, not against what they want for their own particular purposes. And then that second hurdle is that release form.
(47:28):
First I'd say never use the form legal release with a customer. Soon as somebody hears the word legal it's alarm bells. And so the first thing you do is you have a conversation with them, and they wait until they really really want to participate, because you're
going to showcase them, you're going to show them as being, you know, these wonderful hero of the story, they're going to get to use the content, they didn't even have to pay for it. And then the release form is for their benefit because you're telling them.
(48:02):
I actually cannot make this public until you give me final approval. And so I need your signature here that shows how we're going to go through that process. And then if you do your job well, your customer will shine and so will you.
Yeah, getting releases is so important.
(48:23):
I find that, like I've worked for other clients, and they didn't have release forms, but we work creating certain types of content with their customers and
getting that sort of approval takes time and it just stops the whole release of the of the content because you have to wait for it to go through all of their layers of approval.
(48:54):
Yeah, and it's frustrating I think sometimes because you know you put all the time and to create in the content and you want to be able to for them to be able to use it, you know, so.
Yes, and I usually follow a specific process so I get the customer the client and user whatever on board like yes let's do this.
(49:17):
Then I get the release form signed, where I've guaranteed to them, nothing is going public until I have your final written approval. And then, if I do my job well, they are glowing in this story, and I also when I send it for approval.
I never say, hey take a look and see if you find anything else you want to change, because if you ask a human being what else they should change they will find something to change.
(49:48):
So, I send it out and I just say we are very pleased with the results and hope you are too.
So I say, I don't even ask them for an approval, and I've never failed to get an approval. They'll come back and they'll say, this is great. Thanks so much done.
That's great.
Well, that is all the time we have for today, I just want to be thoughtful of time here and just thank you so much Elaine for for just sharing your expertise I loved your book, I strongly recommend it to marketers out there who really want to develop that
(50:29):
storytelling muscle and, and it's just, you know, it's great tools for getting organized in here and questions that you should be asking questions you probably even think you knew you knew you knew you needed to ask so, you know, thank you so much for just being
with us today.
Thank you for inviting me, I love getting questions from a storyteller because you know the right questions to ask, but we can have a conversation. So, thank you.
(50:59):
Thank you.
And to our listeners, whether you hear us locally from the BTV studios in Bedford, Massachusetts, or across the globe on such podcast channels as Spotify, Apple podcasts or Amazon Prime.
Thanks for listening. We hope you enjoyed this episode, and we'll see you next time.
Happy storytelling.
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