December 2, 2025 • 22 mins
In this game-changing episode, Tyler Wagner, Founder of Authors Unite, shares how to write, publish, and launch a bestselling book to skyrocket your credibility and revenue.
You will discover:
- How to turn your expertise into a book in under 90 days
- Why bestseller status is achievable today with the right strategy
- What referral partnerships scale your business without ads
This episode is ideal for for Founders, Owners, and CEOs in stage 2 of The Founder's Evolution. Not sure which stage you're in? Find out for free in less than 10 minutes at https://www.scalearchitects.com/founders/quiz
Tyler Wagner, the founder of Authors Unite, is a book marketing visionary renowned for transforming ambitious authors into bestsellers with nearly unprecedented success. Tyler has helped more than 700 authors achieve Wall Street Journal bestseller status and more than 1,000 authors achieve Amazon bestseller status. His expertise has not only propelled authors to the top of prestigious lists but also catapulted their careers to new heights. Tyler’s services have proven indispensable for authors aiming not just to publish but to succeed and influence profoundly.
Want to learn more about Tyler Wagner's work at Authors Unite? Check out his website at https://authorsunite.com/
For referral side, check out https://partnerprofits.io/
You can listen to his podcast The Tyler Wagner Show at https://tylerbwagner.com/audio/
Mentioned in this episode:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Scott Ritzheimer (00:00):
Hello, hello and welcome. Welcome once again
(00:02):
to the start, scale and succeedpodcast, the only podcast that
grows with you through all sevenstages of your journey as a
founder, and I'm your host,Scott Ritzheimer, and I want to
talk about something that'skeeping founders stuck in the
grind right now, especiallythose in professional services.
But there's so many folks outthere who are working 70 plus
hour weeks, and it's just notmoving forward anymore. You know
(00:24):
you do great work. You knowyou've got more to offer, but
you don't have the time orenergy to do it. You also have a
bit of a credibility issue.Those who are close to you know
that you're pretty awesome, buthow do you start to expand that
out? How do you boost yourcredibility and open these doors
automatically so that you cangrow your business in a fraction
of the time. Well, it's it'ssometimes easier said than done,
(00:47):
but our guest today has got areally clever way of doing it,
and has been doing it reallywell for a really long time, and
he's here with us today. It'sthe one and only Tyler Wagner,
who is a book publisher, marker,marketer, entrepreneur,
investor, mentor and podcasthost, recognized as a Wall
Street Journal best sellingauthor. He's also founder of
authors unite, a hybridpublishing company that has
(01:09):
helped over 4000 authors publishand market their books, many
achieving best seller statstatus on major platforms. Tyler
also founded partner profits.iowhere he helps businesses to
scale through referralrelationships, using the same
strategies that built that heused to build authors unite into
an eight figure company. Hehosts the Tyler Wagner show,
(01:30):
featuring conversations withimpactful leaders and
entrepreneurs. That's where Imet him. Go check it out.
Awesome Show, and you will notyou will not be disappointed,
but we're here today. Tyler,welcome to the show. You've
helped a lot of authors, andyou've helped a lot of authors
hit best selling status. It'sone of the things that has
really stood out the most to meas we've interacted, and you've
(01:54):
done it a pretty cool way. But Iwant to, I want to pull some of
that experience out, like, whatis it that actually makes a
business book work? Because, youknow, being in the podcast
world, I see a lot of books thatI'm certain not a lot of people
have read and and having, youknow, being in this process
myself, it's a lot of work liketo get a return on this. It's
(02:17):
got to be more than the Kevinwas it Costner, if you build it,
they will come. So walk usthrough, what is it that you
figured out that makes thesebusiness books work so well?
Tyler Wagner (02:26):
Well, thanks for having me on. Man, I would say
it's a few things, and I'llspeak to my own story first, and
I won't go through like thewhole entire thing, but I think
I'm kind of the best example ofthe first kind of example of
this is I was 19 when I wrote myfirst book, and that first book
became an Amazon bestseller. Alater book I wrote became a Wall
(02:47):
Street and I would say, likebeing 19 wanting to be a public
speaker at the time, once I wasan Amazon bestseller. And I will
say again, this was like 15years ago. But I think the same
principles apply is, once you'rea best selling author,
obviously, on one of the majorlists, Wall Street, USA Today,
or NYT, those are, like theelite, but best seller on any
(03:08):
list, it just from a brandingstandpoint. You kind of like,
trust is almost assumed, andthey like, look past all the
other things. And I And what Imean by that is, as a 19 year
old that just dropped out ofcollege 80 grand in debt. You
know, I had people that werepaying me 1000s of dollars at
that time to help them, and Iwas getting paid a few grand to
(03:30):
speak on I did about a dozenstages before I switched, like
full time over to authors unite.But it was, it was because I was
a best selling author. They lookpast everything else. Didn't ask
me, like, any questions, so Ididn't have to answer about the
debt, the age thing kind ofdisappeared, and it was all
because best selling author wasnext to my name. So to me, that
(03:52):
is the number one thing, justthe branding of it. And it's
hard to like measure directlythe impact of that, but I can
just speak for myself and a lotof my clients, like, once you
have that tag, if you will, orbrand, everything else in your
life becomes easier. So I wouldsay, that's the first thing. The
second thing is, I would say,and I kind of got this from Gary
(04:12):
Vaynerchuk, is instead ofbecause I see kind of both
strategies at play in themarket. Is one strategy is,
write your book, but don't giveaway all the secrets. Like, hold
back some of the secrets for theback end of your funnel,
consulting courses, etc. Butwhat Gary V says is he's like,
what you really want to do isjust give it all away for free,
(04:33):
or as like, as much as humanlypossible. A book is not
technically free, but very lowcost. So just give away as much
value as you can, and thenpeople will be blown away as
they read your book. And then99% of people, just like with
the people that watch yourpodcast, you know, a lot of them
don't have time to write a book,so a lot of them end up becoming
(04:54):
our ghost writing clients, orsomebody else in the industry,
so somebody interviews them andwrites the book. For them, but
for them to get to the place tofeel comfortable paying 50 grand
to 100 grand for ghost writing abook, they have to trust you. So
if you have a lot of content outthere and you're giving away all
the secrets, the reality ispoint oh, 1% will actually use
(05:17):
those secrets and apply them anddo it themselves. And for those
people, great, you help them, sothat's awesome. But the other
99% they're going to want tobecome your clients, and then
that, you know, turns into ahigher purchase, way higher than
a book purchase. So I thinkthat's one of the things that
just makes a lot of authorsstand out, is instead of holding
(05:38):
back and making your book bekind of like a minor version of
the top of your funnel. Use itas the top of your funnel. Give
away a few chapters for freehowever you want to do it, but
put everything you can into thebook. Don't hold back, because
it's just the reality. 99% ofpeople will not do they will not
take action on what you'resaying. So you don't have to
worry about like losing clientsby giving away all your secrets.
(06:01):
And I think that's the worrythat some people have, and
that's why they hold back. So Iwould say that, and there is a
lot of things, but I guess oneother thing I would say, just
as, like, a kind of trick ortip, if you will, if you can, in
like, the best way possible, isthis kind of a marketing tactic,
but, like, try to causecontroversy, but not cause
(06:22):
problems for people. What I meanby that is, like, one of our
most successful books, the titleof it's called weightlifting is
a waste of time, and I don'ttake credit for, like, the full
success. The author's name isJohn Chapuis. She already had a
fairly large audience, but wedid the Wall Street Journal and
USA Today bestseller campaignfor him, and since then, he's
(06:43):
sold over 200,000 copies. Andfrom what we've seen like after
we did the campaign, that therewas tons of talk online and like
forums, social medias, fitnesstrainers, personal trainers,
kind of like fighting with thepeople that believe in his
stuff. And the reason for thatwas his. I think it was his
really his title, weightliftingis a waste of time. It was kind
(07:03):
of taking a jab at the entirefitness industry, and they
fought back. So if you can getpeople, as long as you can
handle it, like mentally, somepeople, like, maybe emotionally,
wouldn't be able to but as longas you can, that tactic is very
tried and true, and it worksreally well. So controversy for
the right reasons, I guess wouldbe that answer.
Scott Ritzheimer (07:25):
I love that. I love it. So let's go after this.
If you build it, they will comething because, particularly for
like coaches and consultants orfolks who are very smart or very
product sensitive, there's thisidea that if you make something
amazing, it'll do amazing. Andthat's just not the game. So
(07:45):
tell us a little bit. What doesit look like? How much of a book
success happens before it'swritten and how much of its
success happens after it'swritten?
Tyler Wagner (07:53):
Um, so I would say it's a mix of both. I'll
definitely say, like, build itand they will come in today's
world with all the competition.That's definitely not going to
work. But, and I'll use, like tome, Alex or Moses, kind of the
best example of this, because Ijust his content. I think it's
kind of an understanding betweeneverybody that's gone through
his content. It's very goodcontent. So you definitely it's
(08:16):
not all marketing. Marketing,though, is a big part of it. You
can't get anywhere, I think,without marketing, and if you
did, it would take very long forword of mouth to actually
spread. So to me, it really iskind of 5050, in today's world,
meaning, give everything you gotto your product. Don't view your
book as just a business card. Itis a business card, but it's way
(08:37):
more than that. And I think ifthat's your view when you're
writing it, you could maybe,kind of, I won't curse, but
like, half a it if you know youwant to make sure, like, make it
so valuable, so that yourmarketing compounds. I guess is
the best way to verbalize this,so that all the marketing you
do, let's say your conversionsare super low for whatever
(08:59):
reason, as long as that contentis really good, even if your
conversions are super low withyour marketing efforts, the
people that did convert word ofmouth should eventually take
over in time. Whereas, if youonly focus on the marketing and
make the actual service orproduct that, in this case, a
book, not the best, then word ofmouth really has no chance.
(09:21):
It'll die out eventually. Andthat's what I tell a lot of my
clients, is like the reality is,and this is the truth, I can
guarantee, almost, well, notalmost, literally any author,
short term success, but the onlyway for the long term success,
like that client I justmentioned, John jaquish, with
the fitness book, is if thecontents actually good, right?
(09:42):
So I can get those first, youknow, 20, 30,000 sales in a
week, hit the New York Times,whatever. But if the contents
good, it's just gonna, you know,fall off a cliff eventually,
right? So it has to be both, Ithink, is really the answer.
Scott Ritzheimer (09:57):
Yeah, yeah. I love that. And. Yeah, so I want
to touch on this, this kind ofidea of publishing and formal
publishing, hybrid publishing,self publishing. There's a lot
of noise and talk around that.Walk us through, like, Why have
you chosen to go a hybrid routeas an organization, as a
(10:18):
publishing company?
Tyler Wagner (10:21):
To me, it's just the best model, and I will
actually say too. So we doconsider ourselves a hybrid
publisher, but we offer both inthe sense of, we have some
authors that they just pay us,and then we publish it for them,
technically service publishingor self publishing, and then we
have some other authors, like wedid a book with the Dalai Lama.
That's just, it's kind of likean outlier example. And for that
(10:43):
one we did like a hybrid model,where it was a royalty, kind of
split. And I would say, I justthink it's the best model when I
compare it across, liketraditional hybrid self
publishing, the only time thatyou'd really want to go
traditional is for two reasons.One, if you're going for New
York Times, because that willdramatically, it's almost like
(11:07):
required. There are a fewexamples of self published
authors like David Goggins, hehit New York Times. So there are
some outliers. But ultimately,if you want New York Times, like
that's your main goal, you kindof need a traditional publisher.
And then secondly, if you wantyour book in physical stores,
you can do it on the hybridmodel. Definitely on the hybrid
(11:29):
self published is prettydifficult, but traditional,
it'll get typically widespreadin the physical stores. So those
are the two reasons. But you dogive up a lot of the royalties
control. I think normally partownership of the book, if not
full ownership. So there is alot that you give up. So in my
opinion, the hybrid model, it'skind of that perfect midway
(11:52):
point of there are hybrids outthere that have Simon and
Schuster distribution. So theyhave very similar to the
traditional distribution. Andthen it's like a 5050, royalty
split. So not as not as bad as atraditional, typically,
traditional is like 8020, or9010, in the favor of the
traditional publisher. So youknow, you're literally making
(12:14):
10% of your 300 page or howeverlong it is booked. To me, that
just doesn't feel play, right.So, yeah, to me, hybrids is kind
of perfect. You have a good teamwith your publisher, so it's
you're not all on your own, likeself publishing. And that 5050,
feels fair to me for what thepublisher is providing and what
you've provided, and it justseems fair, correct and exactly
(12:38):
as it should be, I suppose. AndI will say last thing, though,
is, and we might get into this,or we might not have, but
ultimately, and this will bemostly for your audience too, is
you're not making most of yourmoney from the book royalties.
So like when I say thetraditional the 8020, or 9010,
(12:58):
to me, it just doesn't feelfair. But the reality is, if, if
the if the ROI is the back end,I guess it ultimately doesn't
matter that much, right? Becauseyou're doing consulting, public
speaking courses, whatever, andthat's where you're actually
making your money. So gettingthat extra distribution in the
stores, maybe it ends up playingout that actually you make more
(13:22):
money on the back end due tothat extra distribution. So it's
just again for me, it just feelsfunny to give 90% of your book
away when you know you spentyears probably writing it or a
lot of money with a ghostwriter. Either way, you put a
lot of time and energy, maybefinancial energy, whatever, into
that project. Yeah, to give awaythat much is feels strange.
Scott Ritzheimer (13:45):
One of the one of the things I know from
previous conversations thatwe've had, even offline, is that
a lot of your success in gettingthese books across the
bestseller line, and achievingthat kind of success for your
clients came down to a ton ofhard work and some pretty clever
strategy around referralrelationships, and that's a big
part of what you're doing andyour more recent endeavor for
(14:07):
for that same person, I thinkthis really matters, because
referral relationships are oneof those ways that you can kind
of kick start that virtuouscycle to get out of the time
crunch that you're in and reallyscale to the next level. So, you
know, we could spend a wholeepisode on this, but just kind
of give us your like biggestpoint on how we as entrepreneurs
(14:30):
should be thinking differentlyabout referrals.
Tyler Wagner (14:35):
All right, I love this, so I would say my
experience with talking with alot of business owners, because
I think we probably have similaraudience. Most of my clients are
seven to nine figureentrepreneurs. So what I hear a
lot of the time is we have a fewreferral partners. Like when I
talk to business owners thatlike, pretty much, that's almost
100% of the time we have a fewreferral partners. They refer,
(14:58):
they refer some clients. Each.Year, and it's, you know, it's a
good deal both ways,essentially, but really, what
happened for me, and then I'llcome back to that, is I realized
earlier on that a majority of myrevenue was coming from a few
referral partners. It was a fewdifferent book publishers that
were referring to me just forthe marketing side of their
authors, because they didn'toffer that themselves. And once
(15:21):
I realized that, I was like,Okay, well, what have I had,
instead of, like, five of these?What have I had 100 of them? Or
what have I had 10s of 1000s ofthem? And that's the path, you
know, we took. So I think kindof just the eye opener, or just
to become aware of if you dohave a few referral partners,
and most businesses do just andyou're listening to this, take
(15:44):
the time to think like, whatwould it look like if you 100x
that, or whatever, it soundscrazy, but, you know, 1,000x did
or something, it's totallypossible to do that. There's so
many people that could bereferring to you. And really,
the reality is it would, youknow, double, triple, whatever
the multiple is, it woulddramatically grow your business.
And it's really in a super nonrisky way. There's nothing like
(16:07):
risk about it. There's no likemoney you have to pay like
Facebook ads or anything. So tome, it's just for any for no
matter where you're at inbusiness, 678, or whatever.
Figures. To me, it just worksperfectly if you're kind of
bootstrapping. Amazing. Thisdoes not have risk, it does not
cost money. Perfect. And then,if you are already eight
(16:28):
figures, or whatever, perfect,this could maybe help you get to
nine, right? Just build an armyof people to help you get more
referral partners. So I guessultimately, the answer that is
just become aware of it. I thinkmost people overlook it, because
there's just so much talk in theindustry about funnels, Facebook
ads and all that stuff isimportant, and it does work, but
(16:50):
I just think the tried and true,like classic, I don't know, back
in the day, method of just likereferral partners, has been so
overlooked in today's world. AndI'm just glad that I kind of
just by looking at the numbers,became aware of it and
multiplied it, and now we helpother companies with it.
Scott Ritzheimer (17:08):
So good, so good. Tyler, there's one more
question I've got for you, andthen we'll make sure folks know
how they can get in touch withyou and and learn more about the
businesses you represent. Butbefore we get there, here's the
question, what would you say isthe biggest secret you wish
wasn't a secret at all. What'sthat one thing you wish
everybody watching or listeningtoday knew?
Tyler Wagner (17:27):
Oh, man, that's a good question. And this goes
along with the GaryVee thing.Give away all your secrets. So I
will say what I just said wouldkind of maybe be it, but I won't
repeat myself. So I would justsay the second thing would be
that the all, pretty much allthe best seller lists, because I
(17:48):
feel like this is a good secretfor everybody to know. All the
best seller lists areobtainable, as long as whether
it's you putting in the sweatequity or you paying a company
like ours, they are out therefor you to get so just know that
it's possible. And I think thatis kind of a big secret, because
(18:09):
I think most people out there,first of all, they don't even
think they can write a book.They want to, but they don't
feel like they have the ability.I can tell you, with a good
editor, you definitely have theability. You just definitely
need a good editor, or at leastthat was my case. And then
secondly, for the best sellerlists, for most people, that
just seems like a dream, so faraway from reality. And the truth
(18:31):
is, in today's world, you know,some are easier than others, the
different lists, but becoming abest selling author today is
very possible, yeah. So that'swhat I would share.
Scott Ritzheimer (18:41):
Fantastic, fantastic. Tyler, there's some
folks listening that would lovehelp writing or publishing a
book, or are interested in theresources you have around
referrals and building upreferral partners, where can
they find more out about you andthe work that you do.
Tyler Wagner (18:56):
For sure. So for the book side, authorsunite.com
is the website, and then for thereferral partner side, it's
partnerprofits.io and yeah, ifyou have any questions on the
authors unite site, there's likea chat bot in the bottom, a real
person responds. But I guessit's a chat bot or intercom
whatever, if you send a questionthere, we'll reply to it. So
(19:18):
happy to answer any questions.
Scott Ritzheimer (19:20):
Fantastic, fantastic. We'll get both those
in the show notes. Tyler, thanksfor being here. Fun turning
these around again. Check outTyler's podcast. Tyler, give us
the name of the show again, theTyler Wagner show. That's it.
Yeah, that's it. How could Iforget? And you'll find some
great episodes over there. I hada chance to listen to a few as I
was getting ready for ours, andreally enjoyed it and highly
(19:41):
recommend it. So Tyler, thanksfor being here, really a
privilege and honor. Having youhere, good to see you again, and
for those of you watchinglistening, you know your time
and attention mean the world tous. I hope you got as much out
of this episode as I know I did,and I cannot wait to see you
next time. Take care.
Hello, hello and welcome. Welcome once again
(00:02):
to the start, scale and succeedpodcast, the only podcast that
grows with you through all sevenstages of your journey as a
founder, and I'm your host,Scott Ritzheimer, and I want to
talk about something that'skeeping founders stuck in the
grind right now, especiallythose in professional services.
But there's so many folks outthere who are working 70 plus
hour weeks, and it's just notmoving forward anymore. You know
(00:24):
you do great work. You knowyou've got more to offer, but
you don't have the time orenergy to do it. You also have a
bit of a credibility issue.Those who are close to you know
that you're pretty awesome, buthow do you start to expand that
out? How do you boost yourcredibility and open these doors
automatically so that you cangrow your business in a fraction
of the time. Well, it's it'ssometimes easier said than done,
(00:47):
but our guest today has got areally clever way of doing it,
and has been doing it reallywell for a really long time, and
he's here with us today. It'sthe one and only Tyler Wagner,
who is a book publisher, marker,marketer, entrepreneur,
investor, mentor and podcasthost, recognized as a Wall
Street Journal best sellingauthor. He's also founder of
authors unite, a hybridpublishing company that has
(01:09):
helped over 4000 authors publishand market their books, many
achieving best seller statstatus on major platforms. Tyler
also founded partner profits.iowhere he helps businesses to
scale through referralrelationships, using the same
strategies that built that heused to build authors unite into
an eight figure company. Hehosts the Tyler Wagner show,
(01:30):
featuring conversations withimpactful leaders and
entrepreneurs. That's where Imet him. Go check it out.
Awesome Show, and you will notyou will not be disappointed,
but we're here today. Tyler,welcome to the show. You've
helped a lot of authors, andyou've helped a lot of authors
hit best selling status. It'sone of the things that has
really stood out the most to meas we've interacted, and you've
(01:54):
done it a pretty cool way. But Iwant to, I want to pull some of
that experience out, like, whatis it that actually makes a
business book work? Because, youknow, being in the podcast
world, I see a lot of books thatI'm certain not a lot of people
have read and and having, youknow, being in this process
myself, it's a lot of work liketo get a return on this. It's
(02:17):
got to be more than the Kevinwas it Costner, if you build it,
they will come. So walk usthrough, what is it that you
figured out that makes thesebusiness books work so well?
Tyler Wagner (02:26):
Well, thanks for having me on. Man, I would say
it's a few things, and I'llspeak to my own story first, and
I won't go through like thewhole entire thing, but I think
I'm kind of the best example ofthe first kind of example of
this is I was 19 when I wrote myfirst book, and that first book
became an Amazon bestseller. Alater book I wrote became a Wall
(02:47):
Street and I would say, likebeing 19 wanting to be a public
speaker at the time, once I wasan Amazon bestseller. And I will
say again, this was like 15years ago. But I think the same
principles apply is, once you'rea best selling author,
obviously, on one of the majorlists, Wall Street, USA Today,
or NYT, those are, like theelite, but best seller on any
(03:08):
list, it just from a brandingstandpoint. You kind of like,
trust is almost assumed, andthey like, look past all the
other things. And I And what Imean by that is, as a 19 year
old that just dropped out ofcollege 80 grand in debt. You
know, I had people that werepaying me 1000s of dollars at
that time to help them, and Iwas getting paid a few grand to
(03:30):
speak on I did about a dozenstages before I switched, like
full time over to authors unite.But it was, it was because I was
a best selling author. They lookpast everything else. Didn't ask
me, like, any questions, so Ididn't have to answer about the
debt, the age thing kind ofdisappeared, and it was all
because best selling author wasnext to my name. So to me, that
(03:52):
is the number one thing, justthe branding of it. And it's
hard to like measure directlythe impact of that, but I can
just speak for myself and a lotof my clients, like, once you
have that tag, if you will, orbrand, everything else in your
life becomes easier. So I wouldsay, that's the first thing. The
second thing is, I would say,and I kind of got this from Gary
(04:12):
Vaynerchuk, is instead ofbecause I see kind of both
strategies at play in themarket. Is one strategy is,
write your book, but don't giveaway all the secrets. Like, hold
back some of the secrets for theback end of your funnel,
consulting courses, etc. Butwhat Gary V says is he's like,
what you really want to do isjust give it all away for free,
(04:33):
or as like, as much as humanlypossible. A book is not
technically free, but very lowcost. So just give away as much
value as you can, and thenpeople will be blown away as
they read your book. And then99% of people, just like with
the people that watch yourpodcast, you know, a lot of them
don't have time to write a book,so a lot of them end up becoming
(04:54):
our ghost writing clients, orsomebody else in the industry,
so somebody interviews them andwrites the book. For them, but
for them to get to the place tofeel comfortable paying 50 grand
to 100 grand for ghost writing abook, they have to trust you. So
if you have a lot of content outthere and you're giving away all
the secrets, the reality ispoint oh, 1% will actually use
(05:17):
those secrets and apply them anddo it themselves. And for those
people, great, you help them, sothat's awesome. But the other
99% they're going to want tobecome your clients, and then
that, you know, turns into ahigher purchase, way higher than
a book purchase. So I thinkthat's one of the things that
just makes a lot of authorsstand out, is instead of holding
(05:38):
back and making your book bekind of like a minor version of
the top of your funnel. Use itas the top of your funnel. Give
away a few chapters for freehowever you want to do it, but
put everything you can into thebook. Don't hold back, because
it's just the reality. 99% ofpeople will not do they will not
take action on what you'resaying. So you don't have to
worry about like losing clientsby giving away all your secrets.
(06:01):
And I think that's the worrythat some people have, and
that's why they hold back. So Iwould say that, and there is a
lot of things, but I guess oneother thing I would say, just
as, like, a kind of trick ortip, if you will, if you can, in
like, the best way possible, isthis kind of a marketing tactic,
but, like, try to causecontroversy, but not cause
(06:22):
problems for people. What I meanby that is, like, one of our
most successful books, the titleof it's called weightlifting is
a waste of time, and I don'ttake credit for, like, the full
success. The author's name isJohn Chapuis. She already had a
fairly large audience, but wedid the Wall Street Journal and
USA Today bestseller campaignfor him, and since then, he's
(06:43):
sold over 200,000 copies. Andfrom what we've seen like after
we did the campaign, that therewas tons of talk online and like
forums, social medias, fitnesstrainers, personal trainers,
kind of like fighting with thepeople that believe in his
stuff. And the reason for thatwas his. I think it was his
really his title, weightliftingis a waste of time. It was kind
(07:03):
of taking a jab at the entirefitness industry, and they
fought back. So if you can getpeople, as long as you can
handle it, like mentally, somepeople, like, maybe emotionally,
wouldn't be able to but as longas you can, that tactic is very
tried and true, and it worksreally well. So controversy for
the right reasons, I guess wouldbe that answer.
Scott Ritzheimer (07:25):
I love that. I love it. So let's go after this.
If you build it, they will comething because, particularly for
like coaches and consultants orfolks who are very smart or very
product sensitive, there's thisidea that if you make something
amazing, it'll do amazing. Andthat's just not the game. So
(07:45):
tell us a little bit. What doesit look like? How much of a book
success happens before it'swritten and how much of its
success happens after it'swritten?
Tyler Wagner (07:53):
Um, so I would say it's a mix of both. I'll
definitely say, like, build itand they will come in today's
world with all the competition.That's definitely not going to
work. But, and I'll use, like tome, Alex or Moses, kind of the
best example of this, because Ijust his content. I think it's
kind of an understanding betweeneverybody that's gone through
his content. It's very goodcontent. So you definitely it's
(08:16):
not all marketing. Marketing,though, is a big part of it. You
can't get anywhere, I think,without marketing, and if you
did, it would take very long forword of mouth to actually
spread. So to me, it really iskind of 5050, in today's world,
meaning, give everything you gotto your product. Don't view your
book as just a business card. Itis a business card, but it's way
(08:37):
more than that. And I think ifthat's your view when you're
writing it, you could maybe,kind of, I won't curse, but
like, half a it if you know youwant to make sure, like, make it
so valuable, so that yourmarketing compounds. I guess is
the best way to verbalize this,so that all the marketing you
do, let's say your conversionsare super low for whatever
(08:59):
reason, as long as that contentis really good, even if your
conversions are super low withyour marketing efforts, the
people that did convert word ofmouth should eventually take
over in time. Whereas, if youonly focus on the marketing and
make the actual service orproduct that, in this case, a
book, not the best, then word ofmouth really has no chance.
(09:21):
It'll die out eventually. Andthat's what I tell a lot of my
clients, is like the reality is,and this is the truth, I can
guarantee, almost, well, notalmost, literally any author,
short term success, but the onlyway for the long term success,
like that client I justmentioned, John jaquish, with
the fitness book, is if thecontents actually good, right?
(09:42):
So I can get those first, youknow, 20, 30,000 sales in a
week, hit the New York Times,whatever. But if the contents
good, it's just gonna, you know,fall off a cliff eventually,
right? So it has to be both, Ithink, is really the answer.
Scott Ritzheimer (09:57):
Yeah, yeah. I love that. And. Yeah, so I want
to touch on this, this kind ofidea of publishing and formal
publishing, hybrid publishing,self publishing. There's a lot
of noise and talk around that.Walk us through, like, Why have
you chosen to go a hybrid routeas an organization, as a
(10:18):
publishing company?
Tyler Wagner (10:21):
To me, it's just the best model, and I will
actually say too. So we doconsider ourselves a hybrid
publisher, but we offer both inthe sense of, we have some
authors that they just pay us,and then we publish it for them,
technically service publishingor self publishing, and then we
have some other authors, like wedid a book with the Dalai Lama.
That's just, it's kind of likean outlier example. And for that
(10:43):
one we did like a hybrid model,where it was a royalty, kind of
split. And I would say, I justthink it's the best model when I
compare it across, liketraditional hybrid self
publishing, the only time thatyou'd really want to go
traditional is for two reasons.One, if you're going for New
York Times, because that willdramatically, it's almost like
(11:07):
required. There are a fewexamples of self published
authors like David Goggins, hehit New York Times. So there are
some outliers. But ultimately,if you want New York Times, like
that's your main goal, you kindof need a traditional publisher.
And then secondly, if you wantyour book in physical stores,
you can do it on the hybridmodel. Definitely on the hybrid
(11:29):
self published is prettydifficult, but traditional,
it'll get typically widespreadin the physical stores. So those
are the two reasons. But you dogive up a lot of the royalties
control. I think normally partownership of the book, if not
full ownership. So there is alot that you give up. So in my
opinion, the hybrid model, it'skind of that perfect midway
(11:52):
point of there are hybrids outthere that have Simon and
Schuster distribution. So theyhave very similar to the
traditional distribution. Andthen it's like a 5050, royalty
split. So not as not as bad as atraditional, typically,
traditional is like 8020, or9010, in the favor of the
traditional publisher. So youknow, you're literally making
(12:14):
10% of your 300 page or howeverlong it is booked. To me, that
just doesn't feel play, right.So, yeah, to me, hybrids is kind
of perfect. You have a good teamwith your publisher, so it's
you're not all on your own, likeself publishing. And that 5050,
feels fair to me for what thepublisher is providing and what
you've provided, and it justseems fair, correct and exactly
(12:38):
as it should be, I suppose. AndI will say last thing, though,
is, and we might get into this,or we might not have, but
ultimately, and this will bemostly for your audience too, is
you're not making most of yourmoney from the book royalties.
So like when I say thetraditional the 8020, or 9010,
(12:58):
to me, it just doesn't feelfair. But the reality is, if, if
the if the ROI is the back end,I guess it ultimately doesn't
matter that much, right? Becauseyou're doing consulting, public
speaking courses, whatever, andthat's where you're actually
making your money. So gettingthat extra distribution in the
stores, maybe it ends up playingout that actually you make more
(13:22):
money on the back end due tothat extra distribution. So it's
just again for me, it just feelsfunny to give 90% of your book
away when you know you spentyears probably writing it or a
lot of money with a ghostwriter. Either way, you put a
lot of time and energy, maybefinancial energy, whatever, into
that project. Yeah, to give awaythat much is feels strange.
Scott Ritzheimer (13:45):
One of the one of the things I know from
previous conversations thatwe've had, even offline, is that
a lot of your success in gettingthese books across the
bestseller line, and achievingthat kind of success for your
clients came down to a ton ofhard work and some pretty clever
strategy around referralrelationships, and that's a big
part of what you're doing andyour more recent endeavor for
(14:07):
for that same person, I thinkthis really matters, because
referral relationships are oneof those ways that you can kind
of kick start that virtuouscycle to get out of the time
crunch that you're in and reallyscale to the next level. So, you
know, we could spend a wholeepisode on this, but just kind
of give us your like biggestpoint on how we as entrepreneurs
(14:30):
should be thinking differentlyabout referrals.
Tyler Wagner (14:35):
All right, I love this, so I would say my
experience with talking with alot of business owners, because
I think we probably have similaraudience. Most of my clients are
seven to nine figureentrepreneurs. So what I hear a
lot of the time is we have a fewreferral partners. Like when I
talk to business owners thatlike, pretty much, that's almost
100% of the time we have a fewreferral partners. They refer,
(14:58):
they refer some clients. Each.Year, and it's, you know, it's a
good deal both ways,essentially, but really, what
happened for me, and then I'llcome back to that, is I realized
earlier on that a majority of myrevenue was coming from a few
referral partners. It was a fewdifferent book publishers that
were referring to me just forthe marketing side of their
authors, because they didn'toffer that themselves. And once
(15:21):
I realized that, I was like,Okay, well, what have I had,
instead of, like, five of these?What have I had 100 of them? Or
what have I had 10s of 1000s ofthem? And that's the path, you
know, we took. So I think kindof just the eye opener, or just
to become aware of if you dohave a few referral partners,
and most businesses do just andyou're listening to this, take
(15:44):
the time to think like, whatwould it look like if you 100x
that, or whatever, it soundscrazy, but, you know, 1,000x did
or something, it's totallypossible to do that. There's so
many people that could bereferring to you. And really,
the reality is it would, youknow, double, triple, whatever
the multiple is, it woulddramatically grow your business.
And it's really in a super nonrisky way. There's nothing like
(16:07):
risk about it. There's no likemoney you have to pay like
Facebook ads or anything. So tome, it's just for any for no
matter where you're at inbusiness, 678, or whatever.
Figures. To me, it just worksperfectly if you're kind of
bootstrapping. Amazing. Thisdoes not have risk, it does not
cost money. Perfect. And then,if you are already eight
(16:28):
figures, or whatever, perfect,this could maybe help you get to
nine, right? Just build an armyof people to help you get more
referral partners. So I guessultimately, the answer that is
just become aware of it. I thinkmost people overlook it, because
there's just so much talk in theindustry about funnels, Facebook
ads and all that stuff isimportant, and it does work, but
(16:50):
I just think the tried and true,like classic, I don't know, back
in the day, method of just likereferral partners, has been so
overlooked in today's world. AndI'm just glad that I kind of
just by looking at the numbers,became aware of it and
multiplied it, and now we helpother companies with it.
Scott Ritzheimer (17:08):
So good, so good. Tyler, there's one more
question I've got for you, andthen we'll make sure folks know
how they can get in touch withyou and and learn more about the
businesses you represent. Butbefore we get there, here's the
question, what would you say isthe biggest secret you wish
wasn't a secret at all. What'sthat one thing you wish
everybody watching or listeningtoday knew?
Tyler Wagner (17:27):
Oh, man, that's a good question. And this goes
along with the GaryVee thing.Give away all your secrets. So I
will say what I just said wouldkind of maybe be it, but I won't
repeat myself. So I would justsay the second thing would be
that the all, pretty much allthe best seller lists, because I
(17:48):
feel like this is a good secretfor everybody to know. All the
best seller lists areobtainable, as long as whether
it's you putting in the sweatequity or you paying a company
like ours, they are out therefor you to get so just know that
it's possible. And I think thatis kind of a big secret, because
(18:09):
I think most people out there,first of all, they don't even
think they can write a book.They want to, but they don't
feel like they have the ability.I can tell you, with a good
editor, you definitely have theability. You just definitely
need a good editor, or at leastthat was my case. And then
secondly, for the best sellerlists, for most people, that
just seems like a dream, so faraway from reality. And the truth
(18:31):
is, in today's world, you know,some are easier than others, the
different lists, but becoming abest selling author today is
very possible, yeah. So that'swhat I would share.
Scott Ritzheimer (18:41):
Fantastic, fantastic. Tyler, there's some
folks listening that would lovehelp writing or publishing a
book, or are interested in theresources you have around
referrals and building upreferral partners, where can
they find more out about you andthe work that you do.
Tyler Wagner (18:56):
For sure. So for the book side, authorsunite.com
is the website, and then for thereferral partner side, it's
partnerprofits.io and yeah, ifyou have any questions on the
authors unite site, there's likea chat bot in the bottom, a real
person responds. But I guessit's a chat bot or intercom
whatever, if you send a questionthere, we'll reply to it. So
(19:18):
happy to answer any questions.
Scott Ritzheimer (19:20):
Fantastic, fantastic. We'll get both those
in the show notes. Tyler, thanksfor being here. Fun turning
these around again. Check outTyler's podcast. Tyler, give us
the name of the show again, theTyler Wagner show. That's it.
Yeah, that's it. How could Iforget? And you'll find some
great episodes over there. I hada chance to listen to a few as I
was getting ready for ours, andreally enjoyed it and highly
(19:41):
recommend it. So Tyler, thanksfor being here, really a
privilege and honor. Having youhere, good to see you again, and
for those of you watchinglistening, you know your time
and attention mean the world tous. I hope you got as much out
of this episode as I know I did,and I cannot wait to see you
next time. Take care.
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