Embracing Emotions and Self-Responsibility: Rethinking Health, Business and Community with Jeffrey Shub

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In this episode we are joined by Jeffrey Shub, a doctor turned organizational change expert, turned  revolutionary in personal and community development through the framework of Possibility Management and more. 

Jeffrey shares his journey working Western medicine to questioning societal norms and embracing natural healing. He discusses with us the importance of self-responsibility to connect deeply with emotions like anger, fear, sadness, and joy, and how it impacts everything from one’s health to business operations to community design. 

Jeffrey goes into detail about what it’s like facilitating highly experiential workshops and leading men’s groups for connecting with and healing the emotional body. Tune in to uncover the power of emotions, the role of pain, and the path to unlocking the body’s innate intelligence.

To learn more:
▶︎ Follow Jeffrey on IG: @theurbanbarefoot

▶︎ Check out Jeffrey’s substack

▶︎ Check out Jeffrey’s work
bio.site/Theurbanbarefoot

Check us out at FacesoftheFuture.io and IG: @FOTF.io
This podcast is sponsored by the Foundation for Human Potential.

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Thank you for tuning in :)

Episode Transcript

Victoria Petrovsky (00:00):
Welcome back to the startup of human
potential.
We're your co hosts

Clifton Smith (00:04):
I'm Clifton

Victoria Petrovsky (00:05):
and I'm Victoria.

Clifton Smith (00:06):
and together we're Faces of the Future.
Faces of the Future is a startupstudio with a personal
development platform at theintersection of consciousness,
connection, innovation, and wellbeing.
We're excited to have you joinus on our show.

Victoria Petrovsky (00:22):
And today we're joined by our lovely,
incredible guest, Jeffrey Shub.
So Jeffrey is someone Cliftonand I met a couple of years ago,
and he introduced us to theincredible body of work known as
possibility management,connecting deeply with your
anger, your sadness, your joy,and your fear.

(00:44):
And we'll let Jeffrey dive intothat a bit more by just a little
bit of background about ourincredible guest today.
He comes from, Western medicine.
He completed medical school atone of the top 40 medical
university, university of Miami.
And he was in organizationalculture design, worked with big
companies like Zappos,Microsoft, and a lot of big

(01:06):
hospitals.
He then went on to start his ownmedical practice in podiatry and
foot and ankle medicine, and atsome point decided that he
didn't want to wear shoesanymore.
So he's just an all aroundrevolutionary, incredible being
questioning societal normseverywhere.
He goes in every industry thathe's worked in and, without

(01:27):
further ado, Jeffrey.
Hello.

Jeffrey Shub (01:30):
Hello, Victoria and Clifton.
I like to start off in podcastswith saying, thank you, saying
thank you to, to you who put somuch work and effort into making
these channels.
I get to be a guest, you know, Iget to show up and just speak

(01:51):
and answer questions and it isso tough to make these things.
And so thank you for doing thatand for inviting me here to play
with you for however long weplay for.

Victoria Petrovsky (02:05):
You're so welcome.
So excited to have thisconversation with you today.
You know, many times when we'vehung out in the past, we've
talked about how, oh, wow, weneed to be recording this
conversation.
People need to hear it and be afly on the wall.
That's literally everyconversation we've ever had.
So today our listeners get theprivilege of being that fly on
the wall and engaging in theconversation with us.

(02:28):
So, can you share a little bitabout your background?
You know, I touched on itbriefly with kind of the Western
medicine, traditional healthcarebackground, similar to me with
the nursing.
And then what made you head inthat other direction?
What made you start questioningthings about what you learned
with how you were brought up?

Jeffrey Shub (02:47):
Wow.
It's a big question.
And where it starts actually iswhen you were leading us through
this meditation before kickingoff, this practice of connecting
with my center to the center ofthe earth is, One that I've done
many times and every time is sodifferent.

(03:09):
And this time, which was similarto another recent time, I could
feel the cords of all the otherbeings, you know, all the other
humans.
And on earth, I feel itconnected to mine and it brings
a, there's so much, I feel somuch sadness in that connection.
because first of all, there areall these other beings that I'm

(03:32):
connected to, which in its ofitself is something that would
bring a lot of sadness to me andprobably to any other person who
allowed themselves to feel it.
But also there's so much pain,you know, there's really so much
pain happening in the world.
and I can feel it, I can feel itfor no reason.
I can just say, it's importantthat I allow myself to connect

(03:56):
to this.
And so your question is, youknow, what led me on a different
path?
And somehow I allowed myself tofeel a pain.
allowed myself to feel a painenough that it caused me to make
a turn in a different direction.

(04:16):
At the time I didn't know thisconsciously, I didn't have the
tools to do it and one thingthat I'm sort of tuning into
more and more is that all thestuff that we talk about all the
spiritual things and theconsciousness things, they're
not things that I didn't havebefore and now I have.
There are things that we allhave are always operating in us

(04:39):
and through us.
And it's just creating theconscious connection to these
things helps to turn the volumeup, turn the volume down, and
start to become sort ofmagicians in the definition that
I use, which is, the ability toshift.
the present through my consciouswill.
So, back then I did not havethis, these tools or this

(05:03):
awareness.
I just had this insanedissatisfaction.
I grew up with this strangeunderstanding that, our bodies
are capable of healingthemselves.
And so when I went into theWestern medicine world, it just

(05:23):
did not fit.
And I tried to reshape myself tomake it work.
But apparently too rebellious toreshape myself enough that I
would be That I would be, turnedoff enough, you know, that I
would be adaptive enough to fitinto a world that is as

(05:46):
enslaving as medicine is like asindoctrinating as it is.
So I just could not turn myself,off enough to fit in.
And so that eventually led to abreakdown and, you know, just
crumbling to make space for whatelse could I be if I'm not what

(06:12):
I thought I was going to be formy whole, young life

Victoria Petrovsky (06:16):
Wow beautiful.
Thank you

Clifton Smith (06:19):
Yes.

Victoria Petrovsky (06:19):
So much depth and presence in that
response.

Clifton Smith (06:24):
and some of the things that you said, I'd love
to dive in a bit.
the first thing you said is youjust knew that there was, that
the body was capable of healingitself.
How did you know that?
Or where did that come from?

Jeffrey Shub (06:39):
it is a funny story.
I've told this many times, butmy dad, my father is a doctor.
As I grew up in this house withthis being that could really
take care of anything that wasgoing on.
You know, he studied emergencymedicine.
And so emergency medicines isthis amazing, unique part of

(07:00):
medicine where it's likesomething happens and you just
take care of it, handle it.
And a lot of things need thisacute handling, like to know how
to create the, let's say theenvironment or the parameters
for the body to take care ofitself.

(07:20):
And it's okay.
So my dad's a, he's a doctor andall of our family, you know,
extended family and friends ofthe family.
I grew up in this very bigcommunity in Puerto Rico, Jewish
community.
You know, it's.
A thousand people really tightand everybody goes to my father.
He's the doctor of the communityand I want this antibiotic, or I

(07:42):
want this pill or my, you know,someone recommended this and he
would write a prescription toeverybody, whatever they wanted,
you know, he just didn't, hekind of didn't care to, have the
difficult conversations withthem, but when it came to us
getting sick or getting injured.
The answer was always just letit be, your body will take care

(08:04):
of it.

Victoria Petrovsky (08:05):
Just breathe

Jeffrey Shub (08:07):
Yeah.
You know, it's just, don'tworry, you don't have to do
anything about this.
it was this, it wasn't overtlydiscussed, but it was just woven
in the fabric of.
The communication and theapproach.
so this, it became embedded intomy being somehow that there's a

(08:29):
wisdom in the body.
It knows.
What to do, you just have tokind of get out of the way the

Victoria Petrovsky (08:37):
Yeah.
So something you shared earlierabout, wanting to feel things
more intensely.
I remember a few years ago whenwe first met you.
that's one of the reasons whyyou stopped wearing shoes.
And, what you just said aboutthe body has its intelligence to
kind of heal and calibrateitself.
could you speak to that please?
And you know, like the piecethat we were talking about

(08:59):
before we jumped on and hitrecord was about like the whole
ankle and foot.
Thing how something is more forthe person versus the approach
the industry takes is more for Iguess the pocket

Jeffrey Shub (09:12):
person versus the pocket.
I like that.
okay.
Where do I start?
so there's this, what we justtalked about that I already had
this in my being.
And so I tried to change myselfto become a, good medical doctor
and I just couldn't.
So I left.
And then later on, after acouple years, I was approached

(09:35):
by a podiatrist.
So he's a foot and ankle doctorspecialist, and to start a
podiatry group practice.
And at the time, I still didn'tknow why.
You know, I didn't really knowwhat I believed in.
I didn't, I, I didn't know whatI was to stand for.
So I, I was still trying to makeit, I was still trying to be

(09:58):
successful in the world.
And I said, okay, you know, Iwas working for this consulting
business and it was kind ofchaotic and I didn't know what
was going on and who wouldn'tjump at an opportunity to start
their own thing.
So I went for it and I had a lotof, I'd done a lot of research
in foot and ankle surgery andfoot and ankle medicine.

(10:20):
So I had that already in myrepertoire and you can even look
up and foot and ankleinternational and find my name
published in research papers.
For those who wants thereputation and and so anyway, I
got, I started this businesswith my partner and I'm working

(10:41):
on all of the business side, youknow, he's doing the clinical
work and I'm doing the HR andthe branding and marketing and
finances, and I'm teachingmyself everything along the way.
I'm getting an MBA.
On my own, you know, by justreading, okay, what do I need to
solve?

(11:02):
Here's a book, read the book,you know, read the, whatever I
need to do, start testing, callsomebody if I don't know.
And at the same time, I got verycurious about the clinical
practices, like why would we dowhat we did for the patients?
as I started to unfold it moreand ask some really dangerous

(11:24):
questions.
It started to unravel, like the,the whole fabric of the, like
the whole premise, all theassumptions, the foundation of
why we do what we do, it just,it all started to fall out from
the bottom, it had no mass, whenI measured it against my

(11:45):
understanding of what it meansto be a human or this like
biological evolutionary systembeing, and for example, when, a
person is having a problem withtheir feet, most times, a
podiatrist will recommendgetting a pair of orthotics or

(12:08):
like shoe inserts that willstabilize your foot.

Victoria Petrovsky (12:12):
I wore them as a nurse sometimes in my
nursing shoes because I was onmy feet all day

Jeffrey Shub (12:18):
Yes, and since we can have a really big
conversation about conventionalfootwear, a whole other topic.
The point is when your feet arehurting, they give you an
immobilization and externalstabilization device, which,
Acutely works in the short termit works.
You feel no more pain.
You also don't, you also feel nomore pain.

(12:41):
So you actually get no moreinputs from this part of your
body about what works and whatdoesn't work.
You're basically numbing yourfoot and you're externally
supporting it, which means thatyour foot is just going to get
worse over time anything in yourbody does.
When you support it Xextrinsically or externally,

(13:04):
it's just, you start to becomeweaker.
So I don't know if you ever readthe book anti fragile, but it
was an incredible, portrayal orlike, it's basically a new
context.

Victoria Petrovsky (13:18):
We have it on the bookshelf back there.
doing.
ha ha

Clifton Smith (13:21):
it's one of my favorite books, right?
It's so good.

Jeffrey Shub (13:25):
yes.
It creates a whole new context.
For humans to understandthemselves.
So when you understand that youactually are this thing that
gets stronger when you getpushed, then if you apply that
to any Western medicaltreatment, it just, does not fit

(13:48):
anymore.
So, so the conversation aboutyour health is actually a
context conversation, like howto approach your health.
It's a conversation aboutcontext, not about should I do
this or should I do that?
You know, is it better if I dothis or is it better to do that?
It's actually if you can upgradeyour context about what it means

(14:11):
to be you as a human then thedecision making process becomes
obvious.
So reading anti fragile is agreat way to upgrade your
context.

Victoria Petrovsky (14:23):
And by context, you mean kind of the
zoomed out lens?
Like the meta narrative that youwork with in your definitions?

Jeffrey Shub (14:32):
exactly.
Like the Thought-ware upgradelike what you're thinking with.

Victoria Petrovsky (14:37):
Mm hmm.

Jeffrey Shub (14:38):
So, so you have thoughts, you have all these
thoughts all the time and yourthoughts come from something
deeper, which is what you usedto think with.
So one example is, this is agreat one since we're doing a
being based business podcast.
One common, pitfall in businessis we have a problem.

(15:02):
Like there's this thing and wehave to solve it.
The, problem with it is thatthere's no we in responsibility,
you cannot apply responsibilityto a we.
Because as most people probablyhave experienced, when you say
we have to do this, who does it,nobody.

(15:23):
So, to assign problems to groupsof people just doesn't work.
So an upgrade in Thought-warewould be, called, problem
ownership, whose problem is it?
That's an example.
So if I move through the worldwith with this.

(15:43):
Deep understanding that, aproblem is either mine or yours,
or there is no problem, which isan incredibly challenging
category for people to fall intosomehow to consider that there
is no problem, then the worldlooks different all of a sudden.
And the thoughts that I'mcapable of having are now
different.

Clifton Smith (16:04):
What's an example of that, like if you have no
problem, how does that shiftsomeone's thought process when
an event occurs?

Jeffrey Shub (16:13):
What a great question.
Just before recording thisconversation.
I was in a space with, anotherman and we were working on
taking back expectations thatwe've been carrying with us and,
you know, he was helping mediscover my expectations.
And I discovered thisexpectation.

(16:33):
I didn't realize I had, whichis.
So I'm waiting for someone toapprove of me.
I'm waiting for someone.
So I moved through the world andI take actions.
Waiting for in the light of,will somebody approve of this or
I must do this so that somebodyapproves of me, which basically

(16:58):
is I'm living in this problembased environment.
Like I need approval in order tobe okay.
Meaning I'm not okay.
And I need this approval.
So everything is about trying tocatch up.
And that means that I cannotreally access this reality where

(17:20):
I'm just creating because I loveit, or I'm just creating because
I want to have fun.
I'm creating because.
My being is turned on about aproject.

Victoria Petrovsky (17:34):
hmm.
Yeah, as you were saying problemownership before, I couldn't
help but think solutionownership and solution kind of
comes from that place ofinspirations like, Oh, I'm
inspired to create something.
So then I take responsibilityfor going to do it, to make it
happen, to bring it to fruition.

Jeffrey Shub (17:51):
Yes.

Clifton Smith (17:53):
How does that sort of adjust, I know you had
your self taught MBA by greatauthors book by book.
But how does that framework sortof interface with the
traditional way that businesshas been taught, right?
Like they teach, have a team andthen delegate.
And, but really in this worldthat we're seeing right now,

(18:17):
especially with mental healthchallenges in the workplace, how
do you take what you justexplained and integrate that
into a business environment?

Jeffrey Shub (18:28):
Oh man.
So it would, we have to go onestep at a time.
We would have to go to getthere, but I would like, I would
just like to take a radical jumpinto if we started over, say we
started over and I love causeyou used the word delegate.
So I'm going to go into that,doorway walked through the

(18:50):
doorway.
I held this workshop in Miamirecently.
And it was for a group of peoplewho were wanting to explore how
to make a community happen, youknow, how to turn their chaotic
gatherings into something moremeaningful.
And everybody's like, what isit, what is it, what are we,

(19:17):
what are we going to do, andeverybody's kind of expecting or
waiting to be fed something.
And what is it?
An hour before the space starts,I'm sitting in front of this,
flip chart, you know, I loveflip charts.
I'm sitting in front of flipchart to create the welcome
slide, the welcome.
page.
and I have no clue what itactually is because how could I

(19:42):
know it would be so pretentiousof me to know what we're
actually doing here.
So I said, I called the space,what is it?
that was the title of the page.
And I'm just, so basically I'mgoing with what is.
I'm going with the impulses.
I'm working with what ishappening in the present.

(20:04):
You know, everybody's waitingfor me to tell them So there's
already something unfoldingthere.
That is, part of the largerculture that most of us inhabit,
which I use the term modernculture, which means You know,
this consumerists, hierarchicalif you live in a city, it's

(20:27):
basically the culture of anycity, big city, which is, you
know, someone has the answer.
And I'm going to get it fromthem.
And okay.
Anyway, we get in, we go intothe space and I open this space
and say, okay, what is it, whatis it that, that you need help
with?
What is it that.

(20:48):
Is blocking you from unfoldingthe potential of your being?
What is it that you need helpwith?
and the first impulse was.
I don't know how to delegate.
I need help delegating.
So I said, okay, I take, youknow, I'm standing in front of
the flip chart.
I take the markers and I handhim the markers and I go get up

(21:10):
there.
Let's figure this out because Irealized that this is exactly
what he needs to practice isbeing around a group of people
and figuring out how to awakentheir potential.
You know, he didn't know thatyet.
I already, I had already figuredthis out, but so he's standing

(21:31):
there and he first had to get infront of the group and become
vulnerable.
He had to say, I need help,which is already a huge step for
so many people, I need help.
And then what started to happen.
And by the way, these steps, wejust, we were uncovering the

(21:53):
steps as they were happening.
So the next step was, it waslike taking stock.
So kind of like.
From everyone in the groupdiscovering, what is their What
is their magic?
What are their skills?
And we started uncovering, youknow, everyone's skills together

(22:14):
and.
Taking stock.
And then we took all of thisskills and face them into the
challenge, which was how to helpthis man learn how to delegate.
And really quickly, it just,that it started to crumble.
Because we found out thatdelegation is like a slave and

(22:39):
slave master dynamic.
There's somebody who has thesethings to do and I need other
people to do it for me.
You know, my time is toovaluable and I need to, you
know, delegate and to push itoff to other people that
crumbled completely.
And then we're left with thequestion.
okay, what is it that we'rereally trying to do here?

(23:02):
What is it you really want?
and then we asked, him thequestion, okay, what do you
really want?
And we were trying to get to thebottom of it.
And finally we got to the newtitle, which was how to create
inspired collaboration.
And all of a sudden with thatnew title, the context
completely shifted because itwas no longer about, I know

(23:24):
better, I know what needs to getdone here and I will, I need you
to do it.
Then it became, I want to workwith an amazing group of people
and I want to know from them,you know, what they see.
And I want us all to cometogether and create an
incredible experience of.

(23:45):
In this, in his case, it waslike taking care of this
beautiful home that he hadbuilt, which is a very big,
fancy home that, that is, itsintention is to welcome in
community and be a, sort of aplace where the bright
principles of elegance.
And acceptance and community andclarity, you know, flow through.

(24:12):
So we just, we took it apart.
We took the whole fabric of hisfantasy world and all of our own
fantasy worlds, we took itcompletely apart and we started
over and it was, there was,there's another thing that I,
that started to become veryobvious, which was fascinating.
Which is the minute he went upthere and said, I need help.

(24:36):
There was a village happening.
Everybody was tuned in.
Everybody was, you know, we'reall working together in a
direction, supporting this manin his, With this challenge,
with this problem, process,whatever you want to call it.
And the community that they werewanting to have was happening.

(24:57):
It was so clear.
It was like, Holy moly, it'shappening.
I could see it, you know, thisis very meta thing.
So we were taking stock of ourown skills.
And one of my skills is havingthe meta perspective of Noticing
the more I don't know how to, Idon't know how to I'm a meta
noticer.
I'm not a describer,

Victoria Petrovsky (25:15):
Observe the big picture.

Jeffrey Shub (25:20):
and so anyway, later on, we went into a, we
rolled into a different spaceand another person in the group
was trying to get from the groupof people what they wanted from
a community.
It became this gremlin likeargument, you know, when I say
what that means is there waslike people choosing sides and

(25:43):
people saying, no, I want thisand other people were saying
like, but who's the leader ofthis community?
And so it became this likefinger pointing side, taking
thing and, it just was notworking.
And there was this huge, splitbetween what we were doing at
the beginning, which was reallyworking.
And it seemed kind ofcounterintuitive.

(26:05):
We were like one person broughttheir challenge and everyone
just got on board and wasworking on it together with
complete ease nobody had to beasked to consent or if they were
okay with it, it was just,naturally happening.
And then on this other side wasso clunky and crunchy and
nothing was working.

(26:26):
I have this, you know, I'm stillcarrying this with me about how
can we apply this?
To create a new model of, what'scommonly called business, how
could we apply this tocompletely transform the way
business happens and turn theminto true communities that are,

(26:49):
contexted in transformation andgrowth and sort of helping each
other evolve.

Victoria Petrovsky (26:57):
Yeah, what you're speaking to is something
that Clifton and I speak a lotabout too.
We talk a lot about the newparadigm of business.
And, Clifton comes from thetraditional MBA background.
So for him, it's been a lot ofunlearning.
And for me, I didn't have abusiness context and it's about
like, why do we do things thisway?
That doesn't even make anysense.

(27:18):
So in some ways it's even easierwhen you don't have the
background of business tounderstand, like, this actually
feels better.
If we do things this way, and toyour point about the inspired
collaboration versus delegation,that is a much more conducive
work and collaborativeenvironment.
Of course.

(27:38):
And, you know, we talk a lotabout Beingness Based
Businesses.
So what that means is it's abusiness that arises as a
natural by product of who youare when you're in alignment and
integrity to your core essence.
So if everyone is operating inthat role, and they're inspired
to opt in, however they bestwant to utilize and contribute

(28:00):
their skill sets, not steppingoutside of the bounds of who
they are, or, self selected rolethat they would like to opt

Jeffrey Shub (28:08):
into.
Yeah, I mean that is terrifying.
It's a terrifying proposal fora, you know, whoever would be
called the leader in quotations,a leader, because now there is
no leader anymore in a way.
There's no more hierarchybecause if everybody only does
what they want or what they'reinspired by, which first you

(28:31):
have to get to the point wherepeople can actually identify
what they're authenticallyinspired about, then it's kind
of chaos.
So imagine someone with, yeah,someone that's had experience
running a business team nowtrying to shift into this new
paradigm.
It, you know how many healingprocesses that are going to have

(28:53):
to go through?
A lot.
And I would love to see likethat.
In action, I would love to seelike be part of a process of
someone going from classicmanagement skills to being based
business.
Structure,

Victoria Petrovsky (29:13):
Yeah, and I'm curious a bit about your
background in organizationalchange and, you mentioned that
you've worked with companieslike Zappos before.
And from our background studyingteal organizations and
holacracy, they're one of thosecase studies for how it's done.
I'm curious what experiences youhad in that kind of workplace

(29:37):
that you can bring into thesekinds of conversations.

Jeffrey Shub (29:42):
I wouldn't be the one to speak authoritatively
about, holacracy or, thesethings that you're talking
about.
There is one thing that, was thethesis around which the
consulting firm that I wasworking with was based.
that is that essentially peopleare driven to make decisions

(30:05):
based on emotions, not on logic.
It's It's funny enough.
I then followed that rabbit holeall the way down to find out
what is the emotional bodyreally about and how do you, how
does it work and all of this.
But if you first, Have tounderstand that yourself, like
you have to, in order for thisto make any sense or for you to

(30:28):
be able to play with thisthesis, you'd have to go into
your own emotional world firstand learn how to navigate your
own emotional worlds.
Because the, consulting firm,they had this thesis, but he
didn't have the tools or theexperience to know how to, how

(30:49):
does the emotional body actuallywork?
And how do we play with it?
what the consulting firm did wasa lot of mimetic engineering.
Oh boy.
Big word.
Oh yeah, I know it's a big, bigword.
So, memetics is the study of.
Culture essentially.
So a meme is a unit of aculture, just like a gene is a

(31:12):
unit of your genetic makeup.
So you can equate genetics tomimetics and gene to meme.

Victoria Petrovsky (31:20):
Yeah.
And spiral dynamics, thedifferent means of each color.
Okay.
Got it.
I didn't know that's where thatcame from.
Thank you for going into it.

Jeffrey Shub (31:28):
yeah.
So it's, I think it is RichardDawkins that worked on, this
concept of mimetics But thememetic engineering is how you
play with the memes of aculture.
In order to change anything, youhave to shift the memetics.
You know, we talked aboutThought-ware if you change the

(31:49):
Thought-ware only then can youchange your thoughts.
It's through your Thought-ware.
So the Thought-ware is acollection of memes.
So problems can exist in a setof memes that make up the
possibility of thoughts and, youknow, having problem ownership
as a whole, it's a collection ofdifferent memes that you have to

(32:09):
sort of program into your,software.

Clifton Smith (32:13):
So would it be safe to say it's similar to
limiting beliefs or beliefs thatyou have programmed in your
subconscious or identityconstructs of who you are and
how things operate in the

Victoria Petrovsky (32:23):
world like on a systemic level

Jeffrey Shub (32:27):
Usually beliefs are a collection of memes.
So there's a, it's a little morecomplex than just one meme.
It's already built out of a fewof them.
mmhmm kind

Victoria Petrovsky (32:41):
of entangled beliefs and more like on a
societal level?

Jeffrey Shub (32:47):
So,

Victoria Petrovsky (32:47):
what you're saying.

Jeffrey Shub (32:48):
so they exist personally, interpersonally, and
also culturally.
So the way you interact with oneperson is completely different
than the way you interact withanother person.
Like I was, I just found thisout.
It was an amazing discovery thatI made I love sharing about
what's going on with my life.
I love unpacking and opening uphow I'm feeling, what I'm

(33:10):
discovering.
And then the other day, mymother sends me a text.
Hey, how are you?
I haven't heard from you in solong.
And.
When I tried to respond to themessage, I just went completely
blank.
Like it's as if nothing wasgoing on with my life.
all I could say was.
Everything's good.
I'm okay.
And as I started to dig indeeper, I realized that growing

(33:33):
up, I was so afraid of herjudgments of her not being okay
with the things that I wasthinking about or doing, you
know, that were taboo things.
And so I sort of installed thisprogram in myself that whenever
she asked me how I'm doing orwhat am I up to, I just say,
yeah, I'm good.
Nothing.
I'm good.

Victoria Petrovsky (33:54):
So that's that that, interpersonal Meme is
what you're saying.

Jeffrey Shub (33:57):
Yeah, there's probably a few in there.
One would be something like, Ineed to be careful what I say to
her.

Victoria Petrovsky (34:04):
Yeah.
Clifton and I speak to thatprinciple as well.
We look at it from the contextof the morphic field, like an
individual has their morphicfield.
Then Clifton and I have amorphic field.
And then when Clifton, Jeffrey,and I sit down in a
conversation, that's anothermorphic field.
And any person that you engagewith, anything that you relate

(34:26):
to or have a relationship withis a morphic field and there's
interpersonal or interrelationaldynamics.

Clifton Smith (34:32):
And we use the term, terminology code, code the
container, code our identity,and that gets to that Memetic
functionality.
And then we've embodied a seriesof those codes or memes into, a
component of people's identitiesif they wish to embrace it or
not, which is the coding, theterm quantumpreneur, right?

(34:55):
Are you a quantumpreneur?
You know, your whole identityisn't just a quantumpreneur, but
it's a packet of these codesthat, revealed themselves
emergently through the process.
and I love what you were sharingabout having a workshop and not
knowing where to begin, becausethat's exactly how our program
started.
We had our very first clientcome over and, you know, an hour

(35:18):
before, what are we going to do?
We don't know.
And then all of a sudden, aroundlike 25 minutes, it all just
started coming and we're liketyping furiously as he's
entering the door.
oh, okay, this is what we'regoing to do.
And that's been the processevery single time.
pretty interesting for us.
And it's almost a new way ofoperating that requires, at

(35:41):
least for me, a significantamount of trust, presence, And,
appreciation for the messinessof creativity and also the magic
that transcends logic or reason,or the desire to really have
things structured.

Victoria Petrovsky (35:57):
It was very unsettling for me, especially in
the beginning for someone whoappreciates certainty.
I was like, what are we going todo?
And then it happens enough timesand it's worked out favorably
where just being in that presentmoment and creating through.
What we call emergentrealizations where you're just
like, what is it?

(36:17):
And then what is it is like,what's alive in this moment?
And it always works out.
So I've learned so much abouttrust and surrendering into that
process.

Jeffrey Shub (36:27):
that fear that you're talking about that fear
of like, what are we going todo?
What are you going to, it's soimportant because it is the
energy of being present.
If I'm not with that fear, thenI just, I'm just gonna, you
know, I just sit back and I justlike, okay, whatever.
And then I just get

Victoria Petrovsky (36:43):
lazy You don't care., Yeah,

Jeffrey Shub (36:45):
and instead.
You know, I noticed that it'snot like Oh, well, I don't know
what this workshop is going tobe about.
And I'm sure we'll figure it outwhen we get there.
No, the fear that I'm feelingabout.
of not knowing keeps me really,it's like sharp.
It keeps me sharp in each momentthat as I'm leading up to the

(37:06):
workshop, I'm like noticing theconnection points.
I'm I'm seeing the unseen andconnections are happening and
everything's kind of leading up.
So it's this, I think one of youmight've been the one that told
me about this, but this.
This theory that the futureactually creates the present.

Victoria Petrovsky (37:24):
hmm.

Jeffrey Shub (37:25):
So I created this workshop that's going to happen
over there in the future.
And so my present is nowchanging because it's preparing
me.
The future is preparing me tomeet it over there in this thing
that I declared is going tohappen.

Victoria Petrovsky (37:41):
Yes.

Clifton Smith (37:43):
Yeah, we do that.
One of the exercises is apainted picture exercise where
you actually pull from the fieldof your creative intuition or
freehand draw, some timestamped,vision of the future.
And it at some point occurs andwhen we've done it, you know,

(38:04):
there's just moments whereyou're not expecting it and it's
not exactly like in threemonths.
Exactly.
This is where I'll be.
But it may be like a month ortwo.
You're like, Oh, this is thatvision that I drew.
And we use a lot of thatprinciples in this.

Victoria Petrovsky (38:20):
Yeah.
A lot of that is present.
Also, when you commit to acertain transformative process,
like whether that's a coachingprogram, a plant medicine
ceremony, anything that, you'rekind of feel sensing into what
that transformation will feellike.
You start receiving parts of it.
Like when you sign the contractor send the payment before you
even taken any of the medicine,done any of the coaching

(38:43):
sessions,, it's already, it'swith you.

Jeffrey Shub (38:45):
It is a real skill to develop, to be able Kind of
shrink the now, and the here'sso much that, you can see the,
you know, what is it that theperson really needs because so
often people come in with Oh, Iwant to work on this, or I want
to work on that.
And they have this whole,there's already this whole
preconceived idea of what thetransformation is going to look

(39:08):
like and who I'll be when thisis over.
And anyone who's donetransformation that's listening
to this, you know, I think canattest that.
99.
9 percent of the time the futureor the future state looks
nothing like what you thought itwas going to look like.
You know, the shift that wasneeded was usually it was like

(39:28):
so simple and so obvious lookingback, but I could not see it.
I could not see it.
And so for me, a skilled spaceholder can just catch the now
moment and feed it back.
To say, look, this is whatyou're doing right now.
Do you notice that you just didthis, did you notice this?

(39:49):
And it's like the system startsrecalibrating itself by getting
this feedback., I love thisprocess because all I have to do
is.
Prepare myself for presence

Victoria Petrovsky (40:03):
So just getting into that state where
you can be present.

Jeffrey Shub (40:06):
And then also have the skills to, like say what I
need to say, because one thingis to notice something.
The other skill is to like, sayhold on a second.
You know, say stop, right?
That's comes from my consciousanger.
Stop.
Did you notice that you just didthis?
And have the confidence to sayit, right?
They're like, these are callthem parallel skills

Victoria Petrovsky (40:27):
hmm.

Jeffrey Shub (40:27):
that I need to have strongly developed to be a
great space holder,

Clifton Smith (40:31):
that's beautiful and from a quantum perspective,
how we've explained it is, it'sthe observer effect.
It's, there's something that'soccurring that's a wave in
someone's reality that they'reunaware of, but they need an
observer to identify it.
And once they identify it, theycollapse it from a wave to a
particle.

(40:52):
And now that you have aparticle, you can start to
adjust that in the 3D.

Victoria Petrovsky (40:57):
Mm hmm.
Yeah.
You touched on something a fewtimes throughout this recording,
Jeffrey, you mentioned consciousanger.
And before that you mentionedfear as being part of the
creation process.
Can you talk about these toolshow you use these feelings or
emotions, discerning whatfeeling versus emotion is and
how you can consciously use themto create the reality you want

(41:21):
to create for yourself, right?
So we often look at a lot ofthese, feeling states as
negative anger, fear, sad, like,Oh, no one wants to feel sad.
Right?
So how has that been transmutedin the body of work that you do?

Jeffrey Shub (41:36):
Oh God, there's, I had this experience of a lot of
fear.
When you said that, so you justswung this door open.
That's has so much, it's likeopening that closet, you know,
in the house that has all thethings in it.
It's okay, we've got to piecethrough it little by little.
Place of this conversation aboutthe emotional body.
I'll say it's about theemotional body where it starts

(41:56):
is you like it or not, youremotional body is always doing
things.
It's always in action.
I work with a map of this map ofwe'll start with four bodies
just to keep it simple.
It's not a true map.
It's just, a useful map.

(42:17):
And, you know, you have thephysical body.
That's all this.
You have the mental body thatthinks and that learns and
processes information, emotionalbody that feels and expresses
feelings.
And then there's this energeticbody that senses like, is this

(42:37):
cup too close or too far?
You know, how's the space feel?
It's also connected to sacredsacredness and, you know,
sacred, places and objects likesensing.
And I don't say feeling becausefeeling is for the, you know,
there's specific words that Iuse to describe the connection

(42:59):
to these different bodies.
So if I say feeling, then it's,about my emotional body.
If I say sensing, then it's moreof my energetic body.
Okay.
So I think everybody who'slistening to this podcast
already understands that theworld's actually happening on
the energetic level, the world'sactually happening.
Like what, Clifton, you saidabout Waves and particle, you

(43:22):
know, it's it's the energy andthe energy, the energetic realm
is really hard to tap into,know, just some people can do
it.
It's a really, it's a reallytough skill.
However, there's an interfacebetween the physical.
Realm and the energetic realm.
And that's the emotional realm.

(43:44):
The emotional realm sits inbetween them.
And it's kind of like how theenergetic realm speaks to the
physical realm in a humanexperience.
So you feel things and thefeelings are actually, it's like
the residue something shakes inthe energetic field, you feel
something emotionally.

(44:04):
And that's then expressed yourphysical body.
That's how it works.
We'll leave the mental body outfor now.
it's not important in this,

Victoria Petrovsky (44:13):
My mental body was just questioning where
the mental body works in thisframework.

Jeffrey Shub (44:18):
I, I could sense that.
So I, that's why I said it.
So that's a great example rightthere.
Like I felt fear that, that themental body was being left out.
So I spoke.
And I spoke into it of why I'mnot mentioning it to create
resonance and leveling the fieldhere.
That's the example.

(44:39):
That's one example.
okay.
Energetic speaks through theemotional.
It's like the, I call it likethe remote control.
Like you're playing a videogame.
Energetic is you.
That's the one, the player.
Then there's this control thatthen affects the, the, the
screen, the things that happenon screen.

(45:00):
So at every moment, everything'shappening on all the levels at
the same time.
what does that mean?
So the emotional body has thesefour primary colors, like these
four sort of territories ofexpression that can mix together
and they can combine indifferent ways to form other,

(45:22):
more complex feelings oremotions.
and those are like, you know,anger, fear, sadness, and joy.
This is, this map of fourfeelings was created by a woman,
in the 1970s named ValerieLankford, who was a
transactional analysispractitioner.

(45:44):
And the story is that she wascommitted to a psychiatric
hospital and nobody could figureout how to help her after trying
and trying.
One wise, therapist told her totry to map it out herself, try
to figure out what's going on.
And so she came up with this.
And if you do your own internal,navigation, you probably find

(46:06):
the same thing that there arethese four core feelings.
Ah, take a breath.
So these feelings are distinctfrom emotions.
they are two different things,feelings.
And emotions in, my language,you know, no truth about this.
There's just how we calibrateour language to be able to do

(46:27):
things, to play.
the feelings are the impulsesthat are these, you know, what
we talked about, the energeticfield is moving, your emotional
body starts to make feelings andthen it goes into your physical
body.
These are like the right nowthings like.
Wait, the cake's in the oven andI think it's ready.

(46:48):
So fear, I should go check itor, God, I haven't drank water
all day.
I'm thirsty.
So grab the water I'm sayingthese because they seem silly,
but that's how simple feelingsare.
It's really simple stuff abouthow to take care of yourself,
how to take care of yourimmediate environment, and also

(47:12):
they get much bigger, which ishow to care for Gaia, how to
care for earth, what am I meantto work on?
these are much things.

Victoria Petrovsky (47:21):
as you're bringing it more macro.
Usually I feel the impact ofdifferent astrological events
like eclipses a few days beforeit happens.
So from what you're saying inyour framework, I'm sensing the
energetics of it.
I'm feeling it in my body.
Well, feeling it first and thenin my body, I'm like, oh wow,

Jeffrey Shub (47:41):
Yeah.

Victoria Petrovsky (47:42):
And then the actual event happens and it's
much less, intense than.
a few days before for me.
So talking back into whatClifton mentioned earlier about
how you feel into the futurepossibility ahead of time.
So feeling into thetransformation that an eclipse
or an astrological event cancreate.

Jeffrey Shub (48:03):
So you probably have seen this and I'm just
speaking out loud to get yoursort of.
Your sense of it is, it's muchmore, sort of useful for people
to describe how they want tofeel in the future state.
Than what's the materialexpression of this future state?

(48:25):
Is that true?

Victoria Petrovsky (48:27):
Yes.

Jeffrey Shub (48:28):
Yeah.
Cause you're getting closer tothe energetic field when you're
talking about feelings.
Then when you're, Oh, I'm goingto have 1 million in my bank
account and it, I'm going tohave a blue house with a red
door so getting more and moreinto the subtle layers of
reality tends to have much moreconsequence on reality.

Victoria Petrovsky (48:49):
Yeah, for sure.
So what is the conscious versionof those four primary color
emotions that you mentionedearlier?

Jeffrey Shub (48:58):
So first, what is consciousness?
Consciousness is that I amconnected to the bigger purpose
of all this.
So I like to define this becausefor me, it's very important to
define what consciousness means.
Consciousness means I am aservant of the archetypal forces

(49:21):
that flow through me.
Meaning the difference betweenconscious and unconscious is not
I'm aware or unaware.
The difference between consciousand unconscious is I serve the
principles of light.
Conscious means that I serve thelight.
I serve the unified field.

(49:42):
I'm serving something That haslike a real purpose versus
unconscious means I'm servingmanipulation.
I'm serving, you know, like sortof selfish or selfishness or
competition or superiority.
Like unconscious means myactions are serving shadow

(50:02):
principles, dark stuff versus myactions are serving love,
connection, transformation,healing, these different things.
So conscious anger means Idirect the energy of my anger
towards the light towards love,connection, clarity,

(50:26):
transformation, healing, etc.
So each of the four feelings hasa set of what, I don't even know
how to, put all these words intoone category.
It's like it has its own flavorof magic.
Each of the four feelings hasits own flavor of what it can do
to serve conscious purpose.

(50:48):
So anger serves consciouspurpose in its own unique way.
And when I use my angerconsciously, I access things
like Taking action.
I access things like speakingup, taking a stand for
something, saying no to hate.

(51:10):
Things like this.
Setting, yeah, boundaries, yes,boundaries, and I want to say
about boundaries that, you know,you're not going to treat me
this way.
That's not a bound, that's not aconscious, use of anger.
However, saying, I'm not goingto let you cut this tree down.
know, I'm going to stand hereand I will not move until you

(51:31):
agree that you will not cut thistree down.
That's a different thing.
That's taking a stand for Gaia,for the earth, for nature.
It's different from you can'ttreat me this way.
so I just, I don't know if therewas this anger in me about this
word boundaries, that getsthrown around a lot.

(51:52):
And so that's anger.

Victoria Petrovsky (51:55):
So what's, the distinction in that?
I'm curious.
In that you can't treat me thisway versus you can't treat the
tree this way.
And I'm going to take a standfor not cutting it down.

Jeffrey Shub (52:05):
Well, just listen to the way you said it.
Did you notice that thedifference of tone of body
language of, you know, it'samazing because even you saying
you're sitting in front of thismicrophone, you know, we're just
having this conversation andjust saying those two things was
expressed so differently.

(52:25):
They came from different partsof you,

Victoria Petrovsky (52:27):
felt that.

Jeffrey Shub (52:28):
How old is the part of you, anybody listening
that says you can't treat methis way, you know, how old do I
sound?
I'm probably 12 or 13 yearsold.,, it's a really child level
offer of intimacy.

Victoria Petrovsky (52:45):
Is it different if you're like, I
would like to be treated thisway.

Jeffrey Shub (52:48):
I don't know.
It's situational.
You got to try it.
You know, you got to try it withand see if I see it.
It's all about the results,right?
Everything that we're talkingabout is only As good as the
results that come from it.
So let me know how it goes.
Just to give a little hint aboutboundaries It usually doesn't

(53:10):
work very well to try to putboundaries around what somebody
else is allowed or not allowedto do hmm.
They usually don't work verywell.
I'm just talking results wise.

Victoria Petrovsky (53:22):
Yeah.
So saying what you stand for,like how you wish to be treated
and they can opt in or out.

Jeffrey Shub (53:28):
I like to think about it like A train.
a train has, it's a certain,Game World, a train and the
thing about a train is the doorsto the train are always open.
Like you're always welcome toget on the train.
You just have to buy the ticket.
can ride the train as long asyou buy the ticket.

(53:48):
that's it.
So if you think about yourselfthat way, it's a really kind of
a cool map for makingboundaries.
Like the price of entry torelating with me is this, if you
meet that, then I will relatewith you.
If not, I will not, you know,you're the door is open.
You're welcome here, fullywelcome.

(54:11):
And these are my ground rules.
I respect myself enough that ifyou do not meet these ground
rules.
these guidelines, I will notrelate with you.

Victoria Petrovsky (54:21):
Mm hmm.

Jeffrey Shub (54:21):
So it's action more about putting boundaries
around

Clifton Smith (54:24):
And then to follow that up with A lot of
times in the boundary worldpeople set boundaries that are
just false Threats and theyaren't actual real boundaries
there from my experience.
They're meant to try to adjust aperson's behavior And if that
person doesn't abide by thatdesire for adjustment, or I'll

(54:44):
call it manipulation, then it'son the other person who set that
boundary to now take the actionto enforce and demonstrate to
the universe that it actually isa boundary, not just, a self
defense reaction to what's goingon, but a true embodied
boundary.
So in the train, metaphor, youknow, the, if you've ever ridden

(55:08):
in a train, you know that youactually can get on the train
without a ticket.
And there are people on thetrain who enforce the rule that
you need a ticket.
So a lot of times.
If the train company has not,hired the proper, checkers, then
people can get away with it.

(55:28):
So there's, The metaphor, Idon't want to go too deep into
it, but you need to have theself respect to keep your
boundaries.
You know, it's one thing issetting a boundary, which is
actually quite an easy thing todo.
I want to be treated this way,or I want this, or I, but to
actually hold your boundary,that takes real, like self

(55:52):
respect.
And honor and integrity and allof these come from your anger.
All of these principles comefrom your conscious anger.
if you think about it.
We talked about each layer,having a connection to another
layer.
So in your physical body,, canyou guess what tissue, like

(56:13):
which tissues of your bodyresonate with anger, what
tissues in your body have thesame sort of principles and
resonance of anger.

Victoria Petrovsky (56:25):
Like the myofascial or the skeletals.

Jeffrey Shub (56:28):
the skeletal system, right?
The skeletal system is aboutintegrity.
It's about structure.
It's about having, creating theleverage for the next move, you
know, and it's about having adefined shape and a defined,
this is where I stand.
that's the skeletal system andit's amazing.

(56:51):
It's really amazing to have thisbecause your anger actually
resides in your bones.
When we do anger practices, alot of people will go, ah, you
know, and start to squeeze theirmuscles.
Trying to, get access to anger,but they get really tired.
They burn themselves out, youknow, instead you can access the

(57:15):
anger from your bones and it'sendless.
So it's endless resource whenyou get it, when you source it
from the, from its.
Native tissue.

Victoria Petrovsky (57:25):
Hmm.

Jeffrey Shub (57:27):
So

Victoria Petrovsky (57:28):
I'm curious what that looks like.

Clifton Smith (57:29):
Yeah, how do you access

Jeffrey Shub (57:31):
we have a limit on the microphones here, so you
could try it.
You know, you get into acentered position in your seat,
and it starts just with theintention.
You just set the intention thatyou want to connect with your
bones and what might happen foryou is in your energetic eye,,
some people call your mind'seye, I call your energetic eye,

(57:53):
in your energetic eye, you startto see your skeletal system
lighting up and the energystarts to flow through it.
So I discovered recently thatyour bones are actually, they're
kind of like, fiber opticcables.
They actually have.
They run light through them, soyou actually feel it starts to
light up and all of a sudden yousit up straighter, you, it's

(58:18):
like this, dignity, it comesfrom your anger, and you can
start to feel, yeah, just likethat, like the, breath starts to
get strong and come from yournose, And you're already
starting to build this sort ofintensity of I'm here.
I'm with me.
Anger helps you draw your energyinto yourself.

(58:38):
Keep your authority in yourself.
Just like that.
That's already your anger.
And you did not use any musclesto do that.

Clifton Smith (58:48):
Interesting.
Where did you learn this?
Or how did you discover this?

Jeffrey Shub (58:53):
It's in the world of possibility management, which
is this global organicdecentralized.
game world, people are justresearching, people are
researching.
And there's this whole group of,practitioners called feelings
practitioners.
And for the past 15 years or so,they've been researching the

(59:14):
connection between the emotionalbody and the physical body.
And trying to find opportunitiesfor healing the physical body
through this study so we go totrainings and we experientially
discover this stuff, you know,it's not like they just, okay,
that's that.
And that's how this how it goes.

(59:34):
No, you actually experience ityourself.
So let's we can try the nextone.
This may be a little bit morechallenging.
This is, the next body layer.
So actually I'll go to the thirdbody layer because somehow the
gap's a little smaller, but whatis the tissue that resonates
with your fear?
You know, if you think aboutfear and it's magic and what it

(59:57):
offers.
What tissues in your bodyconnect to the fear.

Victoria Petrovsky (01:00:03):
That one, I would say like your nervous
system

Jeffrey Shub (01:00:05):
Your nervous system.
So why the nervous system?
What is it that your nervoussystem does?

Victoria Petrovsky (01:00:11):
fight or flight, parasympathetic
sympathetic response in the bodyeither get geared up for
survival or rest and digest.

Jeffrey Shub (01:00:19):
What else does the nervous system do?
Talking about autonomics,

Victoria Petrovsky (01:00:24):
Yeah, you're also tap into like Kundalini
energy, like energy that flowsinto your body.
It kind of taxes the nervoussystem and you have to like
calibrate to retain that, tohold that energy in your body.

Jeffrey Shub (01:00:38):
Calibration, and connection to the energetics, to
the subtle.
It's also about sensing.
Just purely, you know, like onthe basic level, your nervous
system senses, senses theenvironment, it senses the
different, inputs, it's theinterface of sensing everything.
Your nervous system is aboutsensing.

(01:01:01):
And it connects it's the bigconduit with the energetic body.
you know, you have all thesesensors all around your body,
inside and out, and you'reinterfacing with the world
around you through this nervoussystem.
And it works on alertness.
It works on presence, it workson noticing.

(01:01:22):
This is what your nervous systemand your fear is for.

Victoria Petrovsky (01:01:26):
Perceiving any threats, but also any,
upgraded awareness, spideysensing what's happening around
you.
Yeah,

Jeffrey Shub (01:01:38):
Anger is the energy it's a warrior energy,
this dignity, honor integrity,sharpness and the fear is, about
the spidey senses and it's aboutthe magic.
It's about the subtle, theunseen.
it's really about working inthese, realms.

(01:01:58):
And in a big way, it's aboutsacred space.
So I think it's important totalk about because just as much
as it works in romantic relatingor relating, it's also works in
any sort of, relating.
So any, when it comes to workingwith teams or working with,

(01:02:19):
clients, sacred space, Issomething you can work with
meaning a sacred space is afragile space or any space is a
fragile space with the fear youcan detect its fragility and you
can then move with so much carethat you honor the fragility of

(01:02:42):
the space.
So we were just talking aboutthis.
I'm working with a group of menand we're doing a fear club,
we're running a fear club formen.
And we were talking about howit's so important to develop the
skill of.
starting over in a space.
We get together in groups onlineand we do these practices.

(01:03:04):
Then we go up into breakoutrooms to practice certain things
in small groups.
And then we come back to the biggroup.
So there's this tendency,especially for men who are not
so tapped into their fear.
You go into the breakouts.
Okay guys, let's go, let's dothis.
Instead of going in andrealizing, holy shit, this is a

(01:03:26):
totally new space.
And so I stopped for a second.
I feel my spinal cord, right?
And I feel the electricity in mybody, that fear.
And I go, whoa, this is anopportunity here.
How do I want to use this space?
Really taking that extra secondto slow down and consider the

(01:03:49):
possibilities.
But that's fears for what elseis possible.
Cause it's like this, Oh my God,we can do anything here.
You know, the podcast is aboutto start.
Oh my God, we could talk aboutanything.

Victoria Petrovsky (01:04:05):
I was gonna say, it's kind of like also when
you get a chill, when someoneshares something really profound
or when the hair on your bodystands up.
'cause it's so oh, that's juicy.
there's something big herethat's huge.

Clifton Smith (01:04:18):
So to tie this all together, maybe we'll leave
a cliffhanger on the other twoof the primary emotions where
they reside.
But, where you, do we, what ispain then?
Right?
Cause you started talking aboutfeet shutting off the ability to
receive.
that pain, which is usually amotivator to adjust something.

(01:04:41):
So you're numbing yourself whenyou do that approach, what, how
do you consciously use pain orhow do you interpret pain?

Jeffrey Shub (01:04:49):
Wow.
What a great way to, tie thiswhole thing together going back
to the physical, emotional,energetic, when you experience
physical pain in the body,there's a connection to the
emotional body.
There's a feeling anger.
There are four types of pain,anger, fear, sadness, joy.

(01:05:13):
they're all pain.
They're all a form of pain,meaning, a sensation that is.
signaling a need for somethingto happen

Victoria Petrovsky (01:05:24):
Mm-Hmm.

Jeffrey Shub (01:05:25):
And on the energetic, it's something's
happening.
Something is happening.
So in the modern culture,mimetic structure pain is bad.
You don't want it.
You want to get rid of it.
The modern medical world isbuilt on just that meme, you
know, painkillers, It's allabout getting you out of pain so

(01:05:48):
you can be okay.
What does it mean to be okay?
It means being numb, being freeof feelings, free of pain, free
of feelings.
that's, that, so pain is justthat.
It's just pain.
And it is working on thedifferent body layers to give

(01:06:08):
you information about what to donext.
And, you said it really well,Victoria, that you didn't come
from the business background.
So you had a lot more range ofsort of possibilities when it
came to how you did things.
Cause you had no previousconditioning.

(01:06:30):
It wasn't better.
It's just, you didn't havesomething solid to hook you into
an identity.
We all have a hook into theidentity of modern culture
because we were raised in modernculture.
So we all have a hook into painis bad and into, you know, the

(01:06:50):
value of being numb,essentially.
So to step out of that, it's ajourney.
It's a healing journey towelcome your feelings back in to
welcome the pain of yourphysical body when pain is
happening.
Be with it.
Be with yourself.
Listen, ask questions.
Be curious.

(01:07:10):
Instead of running You know, tothe holy man in the white coat,
who's going to save you soundfamiliar, you go to the church,
the guys dressed in the samekind of outfit, and he's
promising to do it for you, ifyou just pay him enough money,

(01:07:32):
you do enough, confessions anddonate enough money, then you
get, to the light.
Anyway, I could go on aboutthis, but you don't need a
doctor really.
If you change this Thought-wareyou really shifted the
Though-ware then all you need iscommunity and all you need are

(01:07:55):
people around you to ask youinteresting questions and to
help you go into your pain soyou can discover what is your
body asking you to do.
Your body's asking you to dosomething.
it's inviting you to take a newaction, shift some belief, some

(01:08:16):
where you did not honor yourselfin the past and rejigger that
block, let's say.

Clifton Smith (01:08:26):
It's beautiful.
And our listeners, as they'vegone through this journey with
us, you know, if they'verealized that perhaps they're
numb or they've numbedthemselves and they feel
inspired to be a little moreconnected to that feeling, to
that pain, to the sensations, tolife.

(01:08:48):
What are a few recommendationsthat they can do?
You mentioned, you know, join acommunity.
Is there a, a specific groupthat you recommend?
Do you offer support?
what's that next inspirationalaction you've hooked us or, you
know, you've inspired us.
to take that step to be a littleless numb to that pain, to maybe

(01:09:09):
not go to the, go as far as walkbarefoot, around, but inspire to
start to feel and open up more.
What would be those next stepsthat you recommend to someone?

Jeffrey Shub (01:09:21):
Yeah.
Well, there are so many steps totake, you know, there's so many
first steps and.
First, it's to honor thateverybody's journey is.
is theirs is completely uniquelytheirs and their first step will
be that maybe that someonestarts walking barefoot.
I mean that changed my wholelife.
Maybe that's your first step.

(01:09:41):
Maybe your first step is starttalking to people about this.
start talking to your friends oryour family about numbness,
maybe it's, go find a book thatis about feelings.
So I still haven't found abetter book than, the book
Conscious Feelings by ClintonCallahan, who's, a mentor and a

(01:10:04):
friend of mine, and this manClinton Callahan sort of
pioneered this community calledpossibility management, and I
really highly recommend peopletap into this community because
there are thousands of peoplearound the world who are really
a new culture of village.

(01:10:26):
And there are online groupsthat, that work on everything
from anger to fear tocommitment.
And so to get tapped into thisworld and just start to play and
design your path with otherpeople who are designing their
path is.
Such a new Thought-ware, likesuch a new, mimetic construct on

(01:10:48):
its own.
And on another level, it's wow,this guy on this conversation
was super interesting.
I want to connect with him.
And so reach out and we can dosome one on one work that's
possible.
And every month or a couple ofmonths, I offer a different.

(01:11:08):
workspace.
Usually these days, I'm doing alot more for just men because, a
lot of my research is in men'sgroups.
So the spaces I offer are mostlyfor men, but if you follow me on
Instagram, that's where I domost of my sharing.

Victoria Petrovsky (01:11:26):
The, urban barefoot.

Jeffrey Shub (01:11:28):
the, urban barefoot, and my substack page
is, I write articles and I havea monthly newsletter and there I
share things that I'mresearching and also spaces that
I'm creating, so it's a greatspace to stay in touch what
would be most interesting isthat people just start having
more conversations about thisstuff.

(01:11:51):
About, deconstructing the waythings are to create new options
for themselves.

Victoria Petrovsky (01:11:57):
And I'll add for our listeners that Jeffrey
holds a really big space.
And although he doesn't workwith many women right now, I did
have the pleasure to work withhim as has Clifton.
And we did do a rage club andwe're screaming in the garage at
7 or 8 AM throwing stuff, worked

Clifton Smith (01:12:15):
on our relationship consciously through
it.
So there's some very powerfulthings and codes and space that
he holds for that.
And it's been an incredibleconversation, a journey with
you, Jeffrey.
I think I'd love to end on myside with one question and that
is what does human potentialmean to you?

Jeffrey Shub (01:12:39):
oof, wow, okay.
oftentimes, when I'm in atraining space, Somebody is
tired, and they're like,,physical body is collapsing and,
you know, because our trainingspaces are quite intense and you
talk about this, wave andparticle.

(01:12:59):
I love that analogy.
we could just let that person goon, you know, with their
tiredness.
But when somebody decides, hey,what's going on with you?
What's going on?
Oh, I'm tired.
No, no, no.
What's really going on?
And when you start to dig deeperand deeper, usually we find a
block, some sort of emotionalreactivity or some block that

(01:13:24):
the person's Underworld isgrabbing to suck them out of the
space and just say, and I can'tdo this anymore.
And when we worked through that,all of a sudden the person's
energy is just back fully back

Victoria Petrovsky (01:13:39):
Hmm.

Jeffrey Shub (01:13:41):
though human potential is what's, what most
people struggle with is theblocks that they've put between
them and their full potential.
And then, the way it goes nowwith most people is they block
their potential so long thatthey wouldn't even know what to
do with the energy once they gotit back.

(01:14:03):
So in the coaching world, likewhen it comes to the work I do,
I realized that first I helppeople get their energy back,
you know, get the access totheir energy back.
And then it's working with theirconscious feelings to figure
out, okay, what do I actuallywant?
What am I actually supposed todo with this, all this energy?
What am I taking a stand for inthis world?

(01:14:24):
What boundaries do I need tomake?
What, magic am I creating?
You know, do I have access to,what connections do I need to
foster more?
where can I be more authentic,more vulnerable?
So that's my answer about humanpotential.

Victoria Petrovsky (01:14:44):
Beautiful.
Well said it's like, some peopledon't even know what to do with
their potential is basicallywhat I'm hearing once you access
that energy.
So then it's about consciouslywielding each tool that we have
at our disposal, which are ourfeelings.
I love that.
Well, it's been such a pleasureand an honor having you on our

(01:15:04):
show today, Jeffrey.
I love that we get to just beourselves and have our usual
types of conversation, but withothers to witness and observe
and collapse it further into aparticle as Clifton said, thank
you all so much for joining intoday.
And, we'll talk to you guys nexttime