February 24, 2026 • 23 mins
Growing a law firm from solo to 7 offices across Indiana — Bob Nice shares 30 years of real lessons on what actually works.
Bob went from pharmacy school to running 13 attorneys across rural Indiana. No silver bullet, no overnight success. Just decades of figuring out what breaks a firm and what builds one.
In this episode, he walked us through:
- Two partnership disasters (one where the partner literally vanished with the bank account)
- Why most attorneys are terrible at delegation
- How his firm adopted AI tools and remote operations before it was trendy
- And why the 3-5 attorney mark is where everything changes.
If you're trying to scale past solo or push through that messy middle of growing a law firm, this one's worth your time.
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---
📄 CHAPTERS
0:00 - Growing a Law Firm: Why Most Attorneys Can't Make the Jump
1:20 - From Pharmacist to Lawyer: The Origin Story Behind 7 Offices
3:03 - Leaving Big Law: The $3K Bonus That Changed Everything
5:12 - Law Firm Partnership Problems: The Night His Office Was Emptied
7:41 - Law Firm Delegation Tips: Why "Perfect Is the Enemy of the Good"
9:31 - Virtual Bookkeeping and Scaling Your Back Office
10:41 - AI Tools for Law Firms: From Read AI to AI-Powered Client Intake
14:03 - Remote Law Firm Operations: One Day to Go Fully Virtual
16:59 - Rural Law Firm Growth: Big Firm Mentality in Small Markets
19:49 - Law Firm Cash Flow Planning: Why Debt Is a Killer
22:38 - Hiring Attorneys Small Firm: Building a Bench of Talent
----------------------
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
A lot of attorneys, you know, aren't able to make
that jump from solo tomulti-attorney firms.
And I believe it has a lot to dowith the attorney transitioning
from solopreneur to a leader,you know, being able to delegate
and create a management systemand create processes.
Welcome back to the SterlingFamily Law Show, the podcast
(00:22):
designed to help family lawowners build the firm of their
dreams.
I'm your host, Tyler Dolph.
I'm also the CEO of our lawfirm-only marketing consultancy
called RocketClicks that wasborn out of our own law firm,
Sterling Lawyers, that has grownto over 27 attorneys.
Today we continue our owneroperator series.
(00:45):
We interview Bob Nice of theNice Law Firm out of Indiana.
He has more than 30 years ofexperience running his firm.
He's grown into over sevenattorneys and has some amazing
insights.
I really hope you enjoy today'sepisode.
Robert, thank you so much foryour time and be joining us on
the podcast today.
(01:06):
Really excited to learn moreabout you.
You've been running your own lawfirm for a number of years.
You do a lot of differentthings.
Give us a little introductionand backstory on uh who you are
and uh what the nice law firm isall about.
SPEAKER_02 (01:20):
Uh well, my name is Bob Nice, and I am the
management partner, founder, andowner of the Nice Law Firm.
Based in Indianapolis, we haveseven offices throughout
Indiana.
Uh I come from rural Indiana, alittle one-horse town of uh
2,300 people, 12,000 in thecounty.
And I I knew I was going to be apharmacist from the time I was a
freshman in high school.
(01:41):
My parents' best friend was alocal druggist, and that's what
I was going to do.
But when um when I was thesummers in high school, I would
go up to the courthouse andwatch what was going on, and the
judge would say, Why are youhere?
And I'd say, you know what?
I want to understand how thisworks.
So uh off I went to pharmacyschool.
(02:01):
I got in and uh got through, andit's a fairly tough nut to crack
academically, so I did well inschool, but uh something
happened uh midway.
It was pretty cool.
It was the Ford Pinto trial washeld in my hometown, and there's
more about that on my website.
If you look at nicelawfirm.com,you can hear the full story.
(02:21):
But the judge back there invitedme to come home to watch opening
statements, and I thought, wow,wouldn't it be pretty cool to
stand up in front of strangersand try to persuade them to your
point of view?
So I went back, took the LSAT,the way we make great decisions
in our life.
My then girlfriend, future wife,and mother of my children asked
(02:43):
me what I was gonna do afterpharmacy school.
I said, I'm going to law school.
And she said, Where?
And I said, Well, being a Purdueguy, anywhere but Indiana
University.
And so she said, There's thisgreat school near me, which was
Philadelphia, Villanova.
And so I went to Villanova.
I came back and did what theytell you to do, which is going
to work for a big law firm.
(03:03):
And so I did that for six yearsand worked with very talented
lawyers.
But I did not like the hierarchythat I was constrained within.
And then uh six years passed,and I got to a point where I
worked on this case where theytold me that they picked me
because I'd I'd worked on theEast Coast or went to school on
(03:24):
the East Coast.
We were local counsel for a$5billion securities litigation
case.
And uh they sent me to Chicagoevery other week for six months,
and I took notes, went todepositions with 40 lawyers, uh,
which is really pretty boring,frankly.
And um, when we were done, thefirm got a$400,000 fee.
(03:47):
And I was so brash that I wentin in November and said, Hey,
you know what?
I did a really good job for you.
And at that time I was makingabout 40 grand, I think, as a
senior associate.
And this is 30 years ago, butuh, or 35, I guess.
But uh I said, I'd like a$10,000bonus at the end of the year.
(04:08):
And he literally said, Well, youlittle ungrateful son of a gun,
you'll take whatever you get andbe glad you get it.
And they gave me$3,000.
And so they gave me$3,000, anduh, I didn't leave that day, but
I that was the day I knew I wasleaving.
And uh I spent eight monthsplanning my departure, and when
(04:31):
I told gave my notice, my bosslooked me in the eye and said,
You will never make it on yourown.
SPEAKER_00 (04:38):
How about that for motivation?
SPEAKER_02 (04:40):
Today I could I could buy and sell him.
So uh my first point I want tomake to everybody is know your
why.
Why are you doing why why areyou gonna leave uh the steady
paycheck?
Why are you gonna go out on yourown?
Because there's nothing steadyabout being self-employed.
It's up and down.
You know, and the long-termtrend should be up, should do
(05:03):
well.
But in the interim, it is a lotof zigs and zags.
SPEAKER_00 (05:07):
Yeah, success is not a straight line, that is 100%
for sure.
SPEAKER_02 (05:12):
A lawyer, an old lawyer, told me when I was a
young lawyer, he said, avoidpartners.
The only reason to have apartner is if you really, really
need one.
And there may be times when youdo.
But the old joke is the onlyship that won't sail is a
partnership.
And I had a couple on the way,and it was never, never a good
decision.
I literally had one circumstancewhere I came in one morning and
(05:34):
one of the offices down the hallwas empty, the furniture was
gone even, and my bank accounthad been drawn down to damn near
zero, the partner account.
So that was an unpleasantexperience.
So George Washington said avoidentangling alliances.
That was true 250 years ago ininternational relations, it is
(05:56):
also true today in businessrelationships.
So uh I would say uh avoidpartners if you can at all.
SPEAKER_00 (06:05):
Is that uh it's an interesting uh sentiment.
And uh, you know, I'm on theopposite of that.
I I have a business partner whoI adore.
He gave me my first chance, andit's been a great partnership.
Um, so uh obviously there'sthere's certainly nuances to
that, but the the narrativearound it is to better control
(06:25):
your own destiny.
Would you agree with that?
SPEAKER_02 (06:27):
Yeah, and another horrible experience.
When I was first starting, veryfirst started, we had an
affiliation of three lawyers,and one day I get a phone call
from somebody who I peripherallyknew, and he said, Bob, what's
going on over there?
He said, I said, What do youmean?
He says, Well, we're about readyto lock you out.
Why?
Well, you haven't paid your rentin over three months.
(06:49):
I said, Well, that's interestingbecause there was one of the
three who was in control of thelease, and um I was paying him,
and I went over to see the thirdguy and said, Are you paying
your rent to Art?
And he said, Yeah.
So uh we had to have aheart-to-heart with Art and find
out what was going on, and hewas uh not doing well, and he
(07:11):
was using our rent money tocover his own expenses, and so
that's just another, maybe whyonce bit twice shy, and I've
been bit a couple times, that uhwe have we have 13 lawyers, 24
total team members, and uh I runthe show and I own the show, and
you know, I I I wake up in themorning resolute uh that I will
(07:31):
not fire myself today.
So I I at least have thatcomfort of knowing that uh I
will continue to be uh engagedwith a nice law firm.
SPEAKER_00 (07:41):
I'd love to double-click on that point a
little bit.
You know, you've been able toexpand your law firm.
A lot of attorneys, you know,aren't able to make that jump uh
from solo to to multi-attorneyfirms.
And I believe it has a lot to dowith the attorney transitioning
from solopreneur to a leader,you know, being able to delegate
(08:03):
and create a management systemand create processes.
Did you find that as you weregoing from a solo practitioner
on your own when you left thebig firm to then hiring a few
employees?
Tell me about that evolution.
SPEAKER_02 (08:14):
What were some of the you use the right word,
delegate.
So uh if you have what it takesto get through law school, you
cannot help but be incrediblyself-reliant.
And so the problem is then youget out of law school and you
think no one can do what I cando, and I'm not delegating
(08:35):
anything.
And I think it I think it wasJim Collins who said that
perfect is the enemy of thegood.
So you've got to learn.
My son, much wiser than me, wentto business school.
And what he learned in businessschool is that his job was to
create jobs and then hiresomebody to do every job he
creates.
And today he's in private equityand they own some some
(08:57):
incredible amount of companies.
So uh he just keeps buildingbusinesses and adding people to
it and finding great people.
So attorneys are not, by theirnature, good delegators, and so
that's why many, if not most,attorneys are fairly poor
business people, as opposed togreat practitioners, skilled in
(09:19):
in their art, but running abusiness uh requires a different
skill set.
SPEAKER_00 (09:27):
How did you how'd you attain it?
Like what what did you do to getover that hump?
SPEAKER_02 (09:32):
Well, the first step, I think the 12 steps, is
telling you that you've got torecognize the problem, right?
You've got to recognize that umwhat is my limitation?
Well, it's me.
You look in the mirror.
I'm the limitation.
I have to grow and evolve, or Ican't get this done.
So you start looking at thetasks that you do, the
repetitive, and say, Well, gosh,I don't want to do that.
Maybe I did more to myparalegal, okay.
(09:53):
Maybe I'm tired of thebookkeeping, even though I'm
really good at bookkeeping.
You know what?
I I know bookkeeping cold, but Ican't sit around and do those
transactions all day longanymore, especially today.
So it's evolved.
I had a couple employees,part-time employees.
I got pictures from the otherstaff taking a picture of my
part-time bookkeeper literallywith his head down asleep at his
(10:14):
desk.
That wasn't good.
Today I have a virtualbookkeeper with a company that
can scale as I continue to grow,it can get bigger and bigger.
They have bookkeeper,controller, CFO levels, so
whatever I need, they can do.
And that's a great delegationfor me to be able to have them
do that.
Um it's it's an evolution.
(10:37):
The other thing that goes handin hand with that is
efficiencies.
So I unbelievably, I hate to saythis, but I'm 66 years old.
Can't believe it.
I've been at this for 40 yearsthis month, sworn in in October
of 85.
So there were no computers whenI got out of school.
The old partners were justexcited that copiers had just
(10:59):
showed up and they didn't haveto hire secretaries to strike
through, they could call themstrikers, not secretaries,
because they had to poundthrough seven pieces of carbon
paper to make their copies.
So, since then, of course,technology's arrived, and I've
embraced it.
When I got out of school, I wasthe first, this 40 lawyer firm,
(11:19):
they had just gotten a Lexusterminal, and I was the only one
who knew how to use it becauseat the end of law school, this
little red thing with akeyboard, uh, and some of the
partners thought, we don't want,if Bob can do four hours of
research in 15 minutes, we don'twant him doing that because we
want him to build four hours.
And that is that is a short-termview to a long-term issue.
(11:40):
Technology is a great equalizer.
And so same is true for AItoday, right?
Well, I'm old enough to rememberpre-internet.
There was a time when there wasno internet.
There was no microwave when Igrew up.
So uh life has evolved and youhave to evolve with it.
And so I made a commitment.
Most of my peer group continuethrough their careers to be
(12:03):
technophobes, somebody else doit.
They still want to write downtheir time entries and give them
to a secretary and have thempunched into a Word document.
Well, um, the world's moved pastthat.
So AI today is bigger and betterthan the internet was when it
showed up.
It's moving faster.
So we have a committee in ourfirm on AI.
(12:25):
And a year ago, nine months ago,I guess, really, really first in
January, this is 10, um, we metand talked about how can we use
AI in the firm.
And the only thing we were doingwas uh I learned how to make
some really cool PowerPointpresentation images with AI.
Uh you can have, I want to be onthe stage giving a talk with uh
(12:49):
six leprechauns uh out in theaudience, and poof, there it is.
It's just so cool.
But since then, now I use umread AI to summarize all of my
virtual meetings, and it I havea weekly marketing meeting with
my marketing coordinator, and 30minutes before that meeting, it
remembers to send me the outlinefrom last week so I know exactly
(13:12):
what our bullet points were andmy expectations, and I can hold
him accountable for what he'ssupposed to get done.
And now we're using it tosummarize documents,
depositions, things like that.
I'm limited in what I use forgenerative AI, but boy, is it
out there and use it forgenerating standard operating
procedures in the business.
Fantastic.
(13:33):
And just this week we're lookingat using AI for client intake.
And it's literally AI will nowhave a conversation with you,
and it sounds like a 30-year-oldpretty woman who's so interested
and empathetic in your problems,it's nothing short of amazing.
So, in technology, you have toembrace it, don't fear it.
(13:58):
And that leads me to anotherpoint, uh, which is remote
working.
So in March of 2020, Eli Lilly,based here in Indianapolis, sent
their people home.
And I thought, wow, Eli Lillyknows more about healthcare than
I do.
So I gathered everybody andsays, you know what, we got to
work from home.
But we had made good decisionsalong the way technologically,
(14:21):
so that it took us one day tomove our computers and our two
screens and webcams and uheverything, dedicated phones,
home.
And after that, we were rightback in business.
And a bunch of firms, um, somefailed, many were crushed by the
pandemic, and it really had aminimal impact on us because we
(14:46):
were ready.
And I guess within that, yousave a lot of time if you don't
have.
I'm I'm sitting in my home rightnow.
I have an office in my homehere, I have one in my home in
Arizona, and I have the realoffice, great big building.
It's got the sign on the thankGod it's got the sign on the
building for advertising becauseI only go there about three,
four times a month forappointments.
(15:08):
That's all of our seven offices,only two have people in them
every day.
SPEAKER_00 (15:15):
Yeah, we're very much the same.
Um, at Sterling, we have over 25offices, and we use five of them
as hubs and then leverage theothers uh for appointments and
marketing.
Go there when you need to.
That's right.
SPEAKER_02 (15:27):
Go there when you need to.
That's absolutely uh right.
So there's a lot of benefitsfrom that, and most employees
appreciate it, enjoy it.
We had one lawyer leave becausehe missed the society of being
down the hall from somebody, butmaybe he just wanted to drink
too much coffee and tellstories.
I don't I don't know which waythat went.
(15:49):
Uh, because I'm I'm stillavailable, whether I'm here or
out of state.
Uh I'm able to run the businessand most uh courtroom work, if
it's non-evidentiary, most of itis done remotely.
Instead of having to drive 45minutes each way, go through
security and say, Hi, Judge, howare you?
Uh good to see you today.
(16:09):
How are the kids?
Fine, thank you, Bob.
10 minutes on getting dates forthe litigation.
Then, okay, see you next time.
Thanks, Bob, for you.
Thank you, Judge.
Boom.
SPEAKER_01 (16:21):
So it's just evolved dramatically over those 40 years
that I've been in practice, andwe've we've embraced that.
Hey, family law firm leaders.
My partner, Tony Carls, justreleased his book where he lays
bare our precise blueprint forgrowing sterling lawyers from
zero to 17 million.
This is the blueprint that westill use daily.
(16:43):
And Tony explains it in verysimple terms.
The truth is, this is not simpleto do.
Success requires and demandshard work, but if you have the
patience and the work ethic todo it, your family law firm will
succeed.
SPEAKER_00 (16:59):
Bob, I'd like to shift quickly to the
architecture of your firm.
Um, obviously you've grown, youhave over seven attorneys, you
have multiple practice areas.
Was that always the plan?
Or did you start in one and thenas you got referrals and leads,
you you built out others?
Tell us about why you decided togo multi-practice.
SPEAKER_02 (17:20):
So, first of all, when I was a young lawyer, I
joined everything.
I was out there in the worldgoing to church, to Kowano,
Turtoma, um, volunteering forthe Cancer Society, going to the
kids' little league baseball,whatever it was, you know,
shaking hands and handing outcards.
And people have differentproblems.
It's not all one area awful.
(17:41):
And so I learned to do a lot ofdifferent things and I found it
fascinating.
And sometimes you got to beworking hard to stay just ahead
of the knowledge curve of whatyour client knows because the
client will do everything tobecome an expert, especially
with the internet now.
They will want to become anexpert on that area quickly.
And so you'd better know, youbetter do what it takes to get
(18:01):
up to speed.
But but yes, I I wanted tofollow a big firm mentality but
serve smaller markets.
So I have gone into smallercommunities where we are well
known individually, and it'sit's really a great thing when
people are calling you attorneynice, just like a doctor.
Uh you're wearing a suit, you'reone of the you recognize you're
(18:24):
the top 2% education-wise in thecommunity, and uh people respect
you for what you are and whatyou do for them.
And um the cost of living isprobably 30-40% less out in more
rural Indiana.
If you like outdoors,especially.
And if there's anybody less thanwho wants a job uh as a lawyer
in a rural part of Indiana, youjust call me because I'm ready
(18:46):
to set you up.
But they're hard to find.
Uh, but there's a lot to be saidfor the kinder, gentler
lifestyle that you get out inmore rural communities.
SPEAKER_00 (18:56):
Love it.
And so it was more about uhcreating the lifestyle in the
locations you wanted and thenservicing that community in as
many ways as you could based onmultiple practice areas.
SPEAKER_02 (19:09):
Right.
We're instantly the biggest lawfirm in a small community when
we go in.
And so if someone comes to thedoor and says, I need an action,
a quiet title, and the attorneyat that location can barely
spell quiet, it's okay becausewe have other people who can and
we can assist.
Uh it's very it's very hard tobe a solo.
(19:30):
I think you have to really tryto get three to five.
Uh, and that's kind of where ifyou can get to five, it starts
to take off then.
Up and up until three to five,just everybody's kind of on the
gerbil trail, you know, runningrunning the race.
Uh after that, you can startgetting some leverage.
SPEAKER_00 (19:49):
Yeah, love it.
Awesome.
Bob, as we kind of finish uphere, I want to take us back to
you know, our purpose, which ishelping the next generation of
attorneys, whether they'releaving their own practice or
they are trying to grow theirown practice.
Could you leave us with a fewjust pieces of advice uh beyond
(20:09):
what you've already given us,which has been tremendous?
SPEAKER_02 (20:12):
Sure.
So um avoid debt.
Debt is a killer, it is acrusher.
And I have I just talked to anattorney.
Um they went back and borrowedtwo million dollars in
government money shortly afterthe EIDL program shortly after
(20:32):
the pandemic, and they haveburned through a million two.
And their their debt uh level, Ithink it's 150 grand in interest
you're paying a year.
And so it's it's just atrociouswhat that does.
You can never get ahead of that.
So you've got to scrim and save,it's all front-loaded.
(20:52):
Uh, but the best thing you cando is to be your own line of
credit.
It's good to have a line ofcredit because there is a
seasonality in the practice.
You know, in family law ingeneral, nobody's calling you in
late July to mid-August whenthey're on vacation together.
That's okay.
They'll come back in Septemberand be pissed at each other, and
now they want to talk to you.
(21:14):
And then nobody's gonna call youin December because they're all
getting warmed up for Christmas.
But by golly, after the holidaysdo not go well, they're gonna be
calling you in January.
But you got a plan becauseChristmas is when you like to
spend money and probably whenyou're not gonna make any money,
and you've got to balance thatout.
So you've got to have what uhDave Ramsey calls a hill and
(21:34):
dale fund uh to back you up.
And when you've got some moneyand savings, uh you sleep better
at night.
SPEAKER_00 (21:41):
So that's so true.
Uh I've found, you know, in ourfirm the the most fun we've had
is when we were winning, when wewere feeling secure, when we had
enough cash in the bank.
And as debt accumulates, youknow, the first thing you have
to do is fill that hole.
So even if you have greatmonths, you you're still not
winning because you're In thehole.
SPEAKER_02 (22:01):
If you come across an opportunity, which could be a
big personal injury case, it'sgoing to take$50 or$75,000 to
fund until it settles, or youwant to buy a bunch of AI
technology, and it takes cash todo that.
So save a few dollars back, andyou'll be happy you did because
(22:21):
then you can jump ahead, you canleapfrog some of your
competition.
SPEAKER_00 (22:25):
100%.
Love it.
Robert, I so appreciate yourtime.
Uh I appreciate your insights.
Obviously, huge congratulationson the growth that you've
achieved.
And uh leave us with what's thefuture of the Nice Law Firm look
like.
SPEAKER_02 (22:39):
Well, I'm I'm invious of you.
30 Lawyers is uh kind of whereI'd like to be, and I'm working
toward that.
Uh and I I watched one of yourother podcasts uh before um the
show today, and one of thethings I said that the barrier
to growth at this level is it'snot business, it's attorneys.
So they're they're hard to comeby, and especially in the areas
(23:00):
where I'd like them to begeographically.
So um that's the challenge we'reworking on to overcome.
We have a recruitment committeeand and they're I'm keeping them
busy.
Good.
SPEAKER_00 (23:10):
I love it.
One one note there that we'vehad to implement is partnering
with the local law schools andhiring law students and
graduates as law clerks andbuilding a bench of talent that
you can grow within your systemover time because it's just too
hard to find that unicorn.
You know, everybody that we talkto is looking for a great
attorney.
(23:30):
Yeah, you and the rest of us,you know, brother.
And there's just not enough ofthem out there.
I would appreciate you.
Have a wonderful rest of yourday, and really, really grateful
for the time you spent with us.
SPEAKER_02 (23:39):
Really good being with you as well.
Thank you so much.
A lot of attorneys, you know, aren't able to make
that jump from solo tomulti-attorney firms.
And I believe it has a lot to dowith the attorney transitioning
from solopreneur to a leader,you know, being able to delegate
and create a management systemand create processes.
Welcome back to the SterlingFamily Law Show, the podcast
(00:22):
designed to help family lawowners build the firm of their
dreams.
I'm your host, Tyler Dolph.
I'm also the CEO of our lawfirm-only marketing consultancy
called RocketClicks that wasborn out of our own law firm,
Sterling Lawyers, that has grownto over 27 attorneys.
Today we continue our owneroperator series.
(00:45):
We interview Bob Nice of theNice Law Firm out of Indiana.
He has more than 30 years ofexperience running his firm.
He's grown into over sevenattorneys and has some amazing
insights.
I really hope you enjoy today'sepisode.
Robert, thank you so much foryour time and be joining us on
the podcast today.
(01:06):
Really excited to learn moreabout you.
You've been running your own lawfirm for a number of years.
You do a lot of differentthings.
Give us a little introductionand backstory on uh who you are
and uh what the nice law firm isall about.
SPEAKER_02 (01:20):
Uh well, my name is Bob Nice, and I am the
management partner, founder, andowner of the Nice Law Firm.
Based in Indianapolis, we haveseven offices throughout
Indiana.
Uh I come from rural Indiana, alittle one-horse town of uh
2,300 people, 12,000 in thecounty.
And I I knew I was going to be apharmacist from the time I was a
freshman in high school.
(01:41):
My parents' best friend was alocal druggist, and that's what
I was going to do.
But when um when I was thesummers in high school, I would
go up to the courthouse andwatch what was going on, and the
judge would say, Why are youhere?
And I'd say, you know what?
I want to understand how thisworks.
So uh off I went to pharmacyschool.
(02:01):
I got in and uh got through, andit's a fairly tough nut to crack
academically, so I did well inschool, but uh something
happened uh midway.
It was pretty cool.
It was the Ford Pinto trial washeld in my hometown, and there's
more about that on my website.
If you look at nicelawfirm.com,you can hear the full story.
(02:21):
But the judge back there invitedme to come home to watch opening
statements, and I thought, wow,wouldn't it be pretty cool to
stand up in front of strangersand try to persuade them to your
point of view?
So I went back, took the LSAT,the way we make great decisions
in our life.
My then girlfriend, future wife,and mother of my children asked
(02:43):
me what I was gonna do afterpharmacy school.
I said, I'm going to law school.
And she said, Where?
And I said, Well, being a Purdueguy, anywhere but Indiana
University.
And so she said, There's thisgreat school near me, which was
Philadelphia, Villanova.
And so I went to Villanova.
I came back and did what theytell you to do, which is going
to work for a big law firm.
(03:03):
And so I did that for six yearsand worked with very talented
lawyers.
But I did not like the hierarchythat I was constrained within.
And then uh six years passed,and I got to a point where I
worked on this case where theytold me that they picked me
because I'd I'd worked on theEast Coast or went to school on
(03:24):
the East Coast.
We were local counsel for a$5billion securities litigation
case.
And uh they sent me to Chicagoevery other week for six months,
and I took notes, went todepositions with 40 lawyers, uh,
which is really pretty boring,frankly.
And um, when we were done, thefirm got a$400,000 fee.
(03:47):
And I was so brash that I wentin in November and said, Hey,
you know what?
I did a really good job for you.
And at that time I was makingabout 40 grand, I think, as a
senior associate.
And this is 30 years ago, butuh, or 35, I guess.
But uh I said, I'd like a$10,000bonus at the end of the year.
(04:08):
And he literally said, Well, youlittle ungrateful son of a gun,
you'll take whatever you get andbe glad you get it.
And they gave me$3,000.
And so they gave me$3,000, anduh, I didn't leave that day, but
I that was the day I knew I wasleaving.
And uh I spent eight monthsplanning my departure, and when
(04:31):
I told gave my notice, my bosslooked me in the eye and said,
You will never make it on yourown.
SPEAKER_00 (04:38):
How about that for motivation?
SPEAKER_02 (04:40):
Today I could I could buy and sell him.
So uh my first point I want tomake to everybody is know your
why.
Why are you doing why why areyou gonna leave uh the steady
paycheck?
Why are you gonna go out on yourown?
Because there's nothing steadyabout being self-employed.
It's up and down.
You know, and the long-termtrend should be up, should do
(05:03):
well.
But in the interim, it is a lotof zigs and zags.
SPEAKER_00 (05:07):
Yeah, success is not a straight line, that is 100%
for sure.
SPEAKER_02 (05:12):
A lawyer, an old lawyer, told me when I was a
young lawyer, he said, avoidpartners.
The only reason to have apartner is if you really, really
need one.
And there may be times when youdo.
But the old joke is the onlyship that won't sail is a
partnership.
And I had a couple on the way,and it was never, never a good
decision.
I literally had one circumstancewhere I came in one morning and
(05:34):
one of the offices down the hallwas empty, the furniture was
gone even, and my bank accounthad been drawn down to damn near
zero, the partner account.
So that was an unpleasantexperience.
So George Washington said avoidentangling alliances.
That was true 250 years ago ininternational relations, it is
(05:56):
also true today in businessrelationships.
So uh I would say uh avoidpartners if you can at all.
SPEAKER_00 (06:05):
Is that uh it's an interesting uh sentiment.
And uh, you know, I'm on theopposite of that.
I I have a business partner whoI adore.
He gave me my first chance, andit's been a great partnership.
Um, so uh obviously there'sthere's certainly nuances to
that, but the the narrativearound it is to better control
(06:25):
your own destiny.
Would you agree with that?
SPEAKER_02 (06:27):
Yeah, and another horrible experience.
When I was first starting, veryfirst started, we had an
affiliation of three lawyers,and one day I get a phone call
from somebody who I peripherallyknew, and he said, Bob, what's
going on over there?
He said, I said, What do youmean?
He says, Well, we're about readyto lock you out.
Why?
Well, you haven't paid your rentin over three months.
(06:49):
I said, Well, that's interestingbecause there was one of the
three who was in control of thelease, and um I was paying him,
and I went over to see the thirdguy and said, Are you paying
your rent to Art?
And he said, Yeah.
So uh we had to have aheart-to-heart with Art and find
out what was going on, and hewas uh not doing well, and he
(07:11):
was using our rent money tocover his own expenses, and so
that's just another, maybe whyonce bit twice shy, and I've
been bit a couple times, that uhwe have we have 13 lawyers, 24
total team members, and uh I runthe show and I own the show, and
you know, I I I wake up in themorning resolute uh that I will
(07:31):
not fire myself today.
So I I at least have thatcomfort of knowing that uh I
will continue to be uh engagedwith a nice law firm.
SPEAKER_00 (07:41):
I'd love to double-click on that point a
little bit.
You know, you've been able toexpand your law firm.
A lot of attorneys, you know,aren't able to make that jump uh
from solo to to multi-attorneyfirms.
And I believe it has a lot to dowith the attorney transitioning
from solopreneur to a leader,you know, being able to delegate
(08:03):
and create a management systemand create processes.
Did you find that as you weregoing from a solo practitioner
on your own when you left thebig firm to then hiring a few
employees?
Tell me about that evolution.
SPEAKER_02 (08:14):
What were some of the you use the right word,
delegate.
So uh if you have what it takesto get through law school, you
cannot help but be incrediblyself-reliant.
And so the problem is then youget out of law school and you
think no one can do what I cando, and I'm not delegating
(08:35):
anything.
And I think it I think it wasJim Collins who said that
perfect is the enemy of thegood.
So you've got to learn.
My son, much wiser than me, wentto business school.
And what he learned in businessschool is that his job was to
create jobs and then hiresomebody to do every job he
creates.
And today he's in private equityand they own some some
(08:57):
incredible amount of companies.
So uh he just keeps buildingbusinesses and adding people to
it and finding great people.
So attorneys are not, by theirnature, good delegators, and so
that's why many, if not most,attorneys are fairly poor
business people, as opposed togreat practitioners, skilled in
(09:19):
in their art, but running abusiness uh requires a different
skill set.
SPEAKER_00 (09:27):
How did you how'd you attain it?
Like what what did you do to getover that hump?
SPEAKER_02 (09:32):
Well, the first step, I think the 12 steps, is
telling you that you've got torecognize the problem, right?
You've got to recognize that umwhat is my limitation?
Well, it's me.
You look in the mirror.
I'm the limitation.
I have to grow and evolve, or Ican't get this done.
So you start looking at thetasks that you do, the
repetitive, and say, Well, gosh,I don't want to do that.
Maybe I did more to myparalegal, okay.
(09:53):
Maybe I'm tired of thebookkeeping, even though I'm
really good at bookkeeping.
You know what?
I I know bookkeeping cold, but Ican't sit around and do those
transactions all day longanymore, especially today.
So it's evolved.
I had a couple employees,part-time employees.
I got pictures from the otherstaff taking a picture of my
part-time bookkeeper literallywith his head down asleep at his
(10:14):
desk.
That wasn't good.
Today I have a virtualbookkeeper with a company that
can scale as I continue to grow,it can get bigger and bigger.
They have bookkeeper,controller, CFO levels, so
whatever I need, they can do.
And that's a great delegationfor me to be able to have them
do that.
Um it's it's an evolution.
(10:37):
The other thing that goes handin hand with that is
efficiencies.
So I unbelievably, I hate to saythis, but I'm 66 years old.
Can't believe it.
I've been at this for 40 yearsthis month, sworn in in October
of 85.
So there were no computers whenI got out of school.
The old partners were justexcited that copiers had just
(10:59):
showed up and they didn't haveto hire secretaries to strike
through, they could call themstrikers, not secretaries,
because they had to poundthrough seven pieces of carbon
paper to make their copies.
So, since then, of course,technology's arrived, and I've
embraced it.
When I got out of school, I wasthe first, this 40 lawyer firm,
(11:19):
they had just gotten a Lexusterminal, and I was the only one
who knew how to use it becauseat the end of law school, this
little red thing with akeyboard, uh, and some of the
partners thought, we don't want,if Bob can do four hours of
research in 15 minutes, we don'twant him doing that because we
want him to build four hours.
And that is that is a short-termview to a long-term issue.
(11:40):
Technology is a great equalizer.
And so same is true for AItoday, right?
Well, I'm old enough to rememberpre-internet.
There was a time when there wasno internet.
There was no microwave when Igrew up.
So uh life has evolved and youhave to evolve with it.
And so I made a commitment.
Most of my peer group continuethrough their careers to be
(12:03):
technophobes, somebody else doit.
They still want to write downtheir time entries and give them
to a secretary and have thempunched into a Word document.
Well, um, the world's moved pastthat.
So AI today is bigger and betterthan the internet was when it
showed up.
It's moving faster.
So we have a committee in ourfirm on AI.
(12:25):
And a year ago, nine months ago,I guess, really, really first in
January, this is 10, um, we metand talked about how can we use
AI in the firm.
And the only thing we were doingwas uh I learned how to make
some really cool PowerPointpresentation images with AI.
Uh you can have, I want to be onthe stage giving a talk with uh
(12:49):
six leprechauns uh out in theaudience, and poof, there it is.
It's just so cool.
But since then, now I use umread AI to summarize all of my
virtual meetings, and it I havea weekly marketing meeting with
my marketing coordinator, and 30minutes before that meeting, it
remembers to send me the outlinefrom last week so I know exactly
(13:12):
what our bullet points were andmy expectations, and I can hold
him accountable for what he'ssupposed to get done.
And now we're using it tosummarize documents,
depositions, things like that.
I'm limited in what I use forgenerative AI, but boy, is it
out there and use it forgenerating standard operating
procedures in the business.
Fantastic.
(13:33):
And just this week we're lookingat using AI for client intake.
And it's literally AI will nowhave a conversation with you,
and it sounds like a 30-year-oldpretty woman who's so interested
and empathetic in your problems,it's nothing short of amazing.
So, in technology, you have toembrace it, don't fear it.
(13:58):
And that leads me to anotherpoint, uh, which is remote
working.
So in March of 2020, Eli Lilly,based here in Indianapolis, sent
their people home.
And I thought, wow, Eli Lillyknows more about healthcare than
I do.
So I gathered everybody andsays, you know what, we got to
work from home.
But we had made good decisionsalong the way technologically,
(14:21):
so that it took us one day tomove our computers and our two
screens and webcams and uheverything, dedicated phones,
home.
And after that, we were rightback in business.
And a bunch of firms, um, somefailed, many were crushed by the
pandemic, and it really had aminimal impact on us because we
(14:46):
were ready.
And I guess within that, yousave a lot of time if you don't
have.
I'm I'm sitting in my home rightnow.
I have an office in my homehere, I have one in my home in
Arizona, and I have the realoffice, great big building.
It's got the sign on the thankGod it's got the sign on the
building for advertising becauseI only go there about three,
four times a month forappointments.
(15:08):
That's all of our seven offices,only two have people in them
every day.
SPEAKER_00 (15:15):
Yeah, we're very much the same.
Um, at Sterling, we have over 25offices, and we use five of them
as hubs and then leverage theothers uh for appointments and
marketing.
Go there when you need to.
That's right.
SPEAKER_02 (15:27):
Go there when you need to.
That's absolutely uh right.
So there's a lot of benefitsfrom that, and most employees
appreciate it, enjoy it.
We had one lawyer leave becausehe missed the society of being
down the hall from somebody, butmaybe he just wanted to drink
too much coffee and tellstories.
I don't I don't know which waythat went.
(15:49):
Uh, because I'm I'm stillavailable, whether I'm here or
out of state.
Uh I'm able to run the businessand most uh courtroom work, if
it's non-evidentiary, most of itis done remotely.
Instead of having to drive 45minutes each way, go through
security and say, Hi, Judge, howare you?
Uh good to see you today.
(16:09):
How are the kids?
Fine, thank you, Bob.
10 minutes on getting dates forthe litigation.
Then, okay, see you next time.
Thanks, Bob, for you.
Thank you, Judge.
Boom.
SPEAKER_01 (16:21):
So it's just evolved dramatically over those 40 years
that I've been in practice, andwe've we've embraced that.
Hey, family law firm leaders.
My partner, Tony Carls, justreleased his book where he lays
bare our precise blueprint forgrowing sterling lawyers from
zero to 17 million.
This is the blueprint that westill use daily.
(16:43):
And Tony explains it in verysimple terms.
The truth is, this is not simpleto do.
Success requires and demandshard work, but if you have the
patience and the work ethic todo it, your family law firm will
succeed.
SPEAKER_00 (16:59):
Bob, I'd like to shift quickly to the
architecture of your firm.
Um, obviously you've grown, youhave over seven attorneys, you
have multiple practice areas.
Was that always the plan?
Or did you start in one and thenas you got referrals and leads,
you you built out others?
Tell us about why you decided togo multi-practice.
SPEAKER_02 (17:20):
So, first of all, when I was a young lawyer, I
joined everything.
I was out there in the worldgoing to church, to Kowano,
Turtoma, um, volunteering forthe Cancer Society, going to the
kids' little league baseball,whatever it was, you know,
shaking hands and handing outcards.
And people have differentproblems.
It's not all one area awful.
(17:41):
And so I learned to do a lot ofdifferent things and I found it
fascinating.
And sometimes you got to beworking hard to stay just ahead
of the knowledge curve of whatyour client knows because the
client will do everything tobecome an expert, especially
with the internet now.
They will want to become anexpert on that area quickly.
And so you'd better know, youbetter do what it takes to get
(18:01):
up to speed.
But but yes, I I wanted tofollow a big firm mentality but
serve smaller markets.
So I have gone into smallercommunities where we are well
known individually, and it'sit's really a great thing when
people are calling you attorneynice, just like a doctor.
Uh you're wearing a suit, you'reone of the you recognize you're
(18:24):
the top 2% education-wise in thecommunity, and uh people respect
you for what you are and whatyou do for them.
And um the cost of living isprobably 30-40% less out in more
rural Indiana.
If you like outdoors,especially.
And if there's anybody less thanwho wants a job uh as a lawyer
in a rural part of Indiana, youjust call me because I'm ready
(18:46):
to set you up.
But they're hard to find.
Uh, but there's a lot to be saidfor the kinder, gentler
lifestyle that you get out inmore rural communities.
SPEAKER_00 (18:56):
Love it.
And so it was more about uhcreating the lifestyle in the
locations you wanted and thenservicing that community in as
many ways as you could based onmultiple practice areas.
SPEAKER_02 (19:09):
Right.
We're instantly the biggest lawfirm in a small community when
we go in.
And so if someone comes to thedoor and says, I need an action,
a quiet title, and the attorneyat that location can barely
spell quiet, it's okay becausewe have other people who can and
we can assist.
Uh it's very it's very hard tobe a solo.
(19:30):
I think you have to really tryto get three to five.
Uh, and that's kind of where ifyou can get to five, it starts
to take off then.
Up and up until three to five,just everybody's kind of on the
gerbil trail, you know, runningrunning the race.
Uh after that, you can startgetting some leverage.
SPEAKER_00 (19:49):
Yeah, love it.
Awesome.
Bob, as we kind of finish uphere, I want to take us back to
you know, our purpose, which ishelping the next generation of
attorneys, whether they'releaving their own practice or
they are trying to grow theirown practice.
Could you leave us with a fewjust pieces of advice uh beyond
(20:09):
what you've already given us,which has been tremendous?
SPEAKER_02 (20:12):
Sure.
So um avoid debt.
Debt is a killer, it is acrusher.
And I have I just talked to anattorney.
Um they went back and borrowedtwo million dollars in
government money shortly afterthe EIDL program shortly after
(20:32):
the pandemic, and they haveburned through a million two.
And their their debt uh level, Ithink it's 150 grand in interest
you're paying a year.
And so it's it's just atrociouswhat that does.
You can never get ahead of that.
So you've got to scrim and save,it's all front-loaded.
(20:52):
Uh, but the best thing you cando is to be your own line of
credit.
It's good to have a line ofcredit because there is a
seasonality in the practice.
You know, in family law ingeneral, nobody's calling you in
late July to mid-August whenthey're on vacation together.
That's okay.
They'll come back in Septemberand be pissed at each other, and
now they want to talk to you.
(21:14):
And then nobody's gonna call youin December because they're all
getting warmed up for Christmas.
But by golly, after the holidaysdo not go well, they're gonna be
calling you in January.
But you got a plan becauseChristmas is when you like to
spend money and probably whenyou're not gonna make any money,
and you've got to balance thatout.
So you've got to have what uhDave Ramsey calls a hill and
(21:34):
dale fund uh to back you up.
And when you've got some moneyand savings, uh you sleep better
at night.
SPEAKER_00 (21:41):
So that's so true.
Uh I've found, you know, in ourfirm the the most fun we've had
is when we were winning, when wewere feeling secure, when we had
enough cash in the bank.
And as debt accumulates, youknow, the first thing you have
to do is fill that hole.
So even if you have greatmonths, you you're still not
winning because you're In thehole.
SPEAKER_02 (22:01):
If you come across an opportunity, which could be a
big personal injury case, it'sgoing to take$50 or$75,000 to
fund until it settles, or youwant to buy a bunch of AI
technology, and it takes cash todo that.
So save a few dollars back, andyou'll be happy you did because
(22:21):
then you can jump ahead, you canleapfrog some of your
competition.
SPEAKER_00 (22:25):
100%.
Love it.
Robert, I so appreciate yourtime.
Uh I appreciate your insights.
Obviously, huge congratulationson the growth that you've
achieved.
And uh leave us with what's thefuture of the Nice Law Firm look
like.
SPEAKER_02 (22:39):
Well, I'm I'm invious of you.
30 Lawyers is uh kind of whereI'd like to be, and I'm working
toward that.
Uh and I I watched one of yourother podcasts uh before um the
show today, and one of thethings I said that the barrier
to growth at this level is it'snot business, it's attorneys.
So they're they're hard to comeby, and especially in the areas
(23:00):
where I'd like them to begeographically.
So um that's the challenge we'reworking on to overcome.
We have a recruitment committeeand and they're I'm keeping them
busy.
Good.
SPEAKER_00 (23:10):
I love it.
One one note there that we'vehad to implement is partnering
with the local law schools andhiring law students and
graduates as law clerks andbuilding a bench of talent that
you can grow within your systemover time because it's just too
hard to find that unicorn.
You know, everybody that we talkto is looking for a great
attorney.
(23:30):
Yeah, you and the rest of us,you know, brother.
And there's just not enough ofthem out there.
I would appreciate you.
Have a wonderful rest of yourday, and really, really grateful
for the time you spent with us.
SPEAKER_02 (23:39):
Really good being with you as well.
Thank you so much.
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