October 7, 2025 • 20 mins
Merging law practices might be your best move. Kathy closed her solo firm after 'wearing every hat.'
Here's the brutal truth about solo practice: you can't actually practice law when you're doing everything else. Kathy had a case involving the Smith and Gadow firm and evaluated their professionalism firsthand before joining. The collaborative law firm structure, mentorship benefits, and family law firm specialization convinced her to close her practice.
Now she's a named partner with certified specialist credentials and AAML fellowship. This episode breaks down the practice transition strategy, becoming a law firm partner timeline, and attorney partnership opportunities most solos never consider. You'll learn why scaling through merger beats staying stuck in admin hell.
📲 Subscribe Now: https://www.youtube.com/@TylerxDolph
📝 Schedule a FREE Family Law Firm Audit: rocketclicks.com/schedule-a-family-law-quick-audit
---
📄 CHAPTERS
0:00 - Merging Law Practices: Teacher to Law Firm Partner Story
3:47 - Why Solo Practitioners Burn Out Wearing Every Hat
7:40 - Joining Established Firm: Specialization Over Survival Mode
9:07 - Law Firm Partnership Track: What It Actually Takes
11:25 - Collaborative Law Firm Structure vs. Siloed Practices
17:05 - Multi-Attorney Consultations: Better Client Experience
19:27 - Solo Practitioner Merger Advice: Culture Fit Matters
----------------------
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
Kathy was a school teacher for over 13 years before
deciding to get into law.
She then built her own practiceand has recently moved and
merged into a larger practice inthe Arizona area.
And I really hope you enjoyedthis episode.
(00:20):
My name is Tyler Dolph.
I'm the CEO of our digitalmarketing agency called Rocket
Clicks that works exclusivelywith family law firms across the
country.
We also own and operate our ownfamily law firm called Sterling
Lawyers that has grown over 30attorneys in 25 offices across
two different states.
(00:41):
And we have this podcast whichwe love and adore you for
listening to.
Today we continue our law firmowner and partner interview
series.
Kathy has a really great storyto tell from being an educator
to being a solo practitioner tothen merging and joining another
firm and becoming a partnerthere.
Kathy, thank you so much foryour time today.
(01:03):
I'm so excited to hear yourstory.
Would you mind introducingyourself to uh to us and giving
us a little background on kindof how you came to be here?
SPEAKER_00 (01:13):
Okay.
So my name is Kathy Stillman,and I am a partner at Stillman
Smith Gatto, which isexclusively a boutique family
law practice in Phoenix,Arizona.
So I actually, my firstprofession was in elementary and
special education, and I was ateacher for over 13 years and
(01:39):
had some really greatexperiences being a teacher,
really enjoyed it.
Along the way, I decided that Idid not want to be a principal,
which is kind of the next level,right?
When you're as an as aneducator, you could be a
principal, and so I ended updeciding to go to law school.
I had a grandparent that hadpassed away, and my initial
thoughts were that I would maybego into estate planning.
(02:02):
You know, that kind of sparkedthat, and there are just many
ways, you know, the law providesfor a lot of different options
and opportunities.
And so I went to law school.
I thought it was wasfascinating, and I did start off
as uh working in the area ofestate planning.
Uh I was living out, say I wentto law school at the University
(02:25):
of Wyoming and practiced inWyoming in estate planning there
for a while, but then I movedback to Arizona where I had gone
to undergrad.
And that was almost 20 yearsago.
And I had children.
I kind of went back to teachingand did some teaching and that
sort of thing while my childrenwere young, which was a great
(02:48):
profession while I while my kidswere young.
And then I went through adivorce myself.
And through that process, Idecided I wanted to get back
into the legal field.
And so I sat for the bar inArizona and opened my own firm
actually at the time, uh, whichis never easy.
(03:10):
I wore every hat.
I was my paralegal, my intake,billing.
Uh and I actually had a casewith one of the partners at the
firm, and through that, just wasmet with exceptional service.
Every every person I engagedwith at the firm at the time, it
was from Smith and Gaddo.
(03:31):
And every every person Iinteracted with was
professional, every pleading,everything that came out of the
office was done right.
And as a sole practitioner, Iengaged with a lot of different
practitioners and did somefamily law.
But it was through that casethat I get got to know um Jenny
(03:52):
Gatto.
And I ended up doing somecontract work for the firm.
And a few months later, Idecided to join the firm and
close my practice because Iwanted to be a part of that, um,
of that culture, just knowingthat people are looking to do
everything.
They, you know, they were a firmthat people referred to, you
(04:15):
know, both Jennifer Gaddo andSteve Smith, who are the my
other two partners, uh have anexception, exceptional
background history.
The firm had been in place forfor years, over 30 years, and
they were tremendous mentors tome.
They they were just very givingin wanting to share, help people
(04:37):
become better practitioners.
And everything that the firmdoes is is only family law.
We stay in that lane.
We that's that's what we do.
We want to help people throughthat process, and I wanted to
become a part of that.
And that was nine and a halfyears ago.
And through their mentorship, Ihave become a certified
(05:00):
specialist.
All three of us are certifiedspecialists through the State
Bar of Arizona in the area offamily law, and we are all all
three of us are also fellowswith the American Academy of
Matrimonial Lawyers, which is anational organization that
really provides a lot in thesame area and said a lot to me
(05:21):
with regard to Steve and Jennybecause they're it is about
mentorship, it's about buildinga community of practitioners
that work together to becomebetter, to you know, to have
that mentorship across the boardso that there's good
representation for people outthere.
And they've really strived to dothat.
(05:42):
And much of the practitionerthat I've become today is thanks
to their mentorship and the highstandards that they hold uh for
for their own work and and youknow in the courtroom and in the
community.
So it's been I've been veryspecial.
SPEAKER_01 (05:59):
Yeah, that's great.
We uh we love the AML community.
Um, we actually do a lot of workwith them as well.
Uh I think your your story isfascinating.
One that you spent so much timeas a teacher and then have been
able to navigate that prettydramatic career change and and
do so very successfully.
(06:19):
Uh the uh we talked to a lot ofattorneys who start their own
firm, you know, and realize thatyou can't really be an attorney
if you're a solo practitionerbecause you also have to be an
entrepreneur and you have to paythe bills and, like you said, do
intake and all the things.
Uh what was the experience like,you know, having to go through
that, learn all of those things,and then be able to come into an
(06:42):
environment at your current firmto really thrive?
Was it like uh you weight liftedoff your shoulders because you
could then go back to doing whatyou do best?
Or do you miss any of the adminstuff from your own firm?
SPEAKER_00 (06:57):
I wouldn't say I miss it.
And now that I'm a partner, Ibecame a partner uh almost a
year ago in July of 2024, and wedid change the firm name from
From Smith Gatto to StillmanSmith Gatto.
Um, the partner, Sandra From hadretired just before I actually
started working for the firm somany years ago.
(07:20):
It's hard to be a practitioner,and and when you're a sole
practitioner, you sometimes takeon more of a general base of
clientele, different types oflaw, and you don't get to be as
specialized in a particular areasometimes.
It takes it takes quite a bit oftime.
So definitely when I made thattransition, I enjoyed that I was
(07:41):
able to focus on building myskills, building my practice as
a family law practitioner,because you do spend an
exorbitant amount of time withthe admin side of things, and it
makes it hard for you to do doyour work work, the things that
you've been trained to do.
Um, as a partner, I've circledback into doing, you know,
having more administrative uhresponsibilities, but I do enjoy
(08:05):
it.
But but being just part of sucha great organization, it made
it, it really made it worthwhilebecause I knew that I was
working for and with just topquality people.
And like I said, really thementorship was such a big part
of building and growing mypractice and uh very
appreciative of that.
SPEAKER_01 (08:23):
Yeah, it could be pretty lonely, you know, being a
solo practitioner and not havinganyone to lean on, and now
having a team is is prettyawesome.
How would you you know help ummaybe the the people below you
as they're trying to becomepartners in their firm?
You know, was that always thekind of the promise when you
came over, or did you have tohit certain milestones?
(08:45):
Like what what allowed you tobecome successful and become a
partner in the firm?
SPEAKER_00 (08:49):
Well, I think some of it was just my personal you
know drive.
I'm very competitive.
I was an athlete in college, andyou know, I I want to be one of
the best.
I want people to think that andto um to have those skills.
And like I said, for me and partof being part of the AAML, part
of the family law community,it's really important to me to
(09:11):
try and be involved in differenttypes of programming that help
build those skills and open up,you know, to where someone can
call you, feel comfortable tocall you on the phone and say, I
have this problem or I have thisissue, and that's how you learn.
And as many divorces as anyonehas seen, there's just always
(09:31):
something different about everysingle divorce or child custody
or you know, any type of thosesituations, they're so
difficult, and no two situationsare the same.
And having a large community oftrusted professionals that you
can reach out to and talk withabout things that are coming up,
brainstorming, how can we becreative in helping these people
(09:54):
get through one of probably oneof the most difficult times in
their lives?
It's it's hard, and sometimes weget into, you know, or what
experiences have we had withjudges and trying to help build
continue to build that communityso that people don't feel afraid
to pick up the phone and say,Oh, what do you think about
this?
What about that?
And that's you know, we have sixattorneys total in our office.
(10:15):
Um, besides for the three of usthat are partners, we have three
associates, and that is reallyimportant to us is we meet, we
meet regularly to talk aboutcases, to we have that open door
so that if there are questionsabout cases that people have,
again, that that's how we alllearn.
And someone else may have seenit, someone else may have
(10:38):
experienced it, and we get achance to to help build that.
SPEAKER_01 (10:42):
It's awesome to hear about the collaborative nature
of your firm and the opportunityto to leverage the other staff
members on cases.
You know, we've heard of a lotof firms that are very siloed
and and don't have that sameapproach.
Do you do you believe that thatis uh a curated approach that
(11:02):
the the founders instilled intothe culture of the company?
And is that something that youguys really kind of focus on as
an organization?
SPEAKER_00 (11:10):
Absolutely.
It's one of one of the keythings and one of the things we
really try and instill is makesure that you know we're all
just right down the hall fromeach other.
And as much as you know, COVIDand some things have maybe
broadened the whole virtualelement of the practice of law,
we still feel like it's veryimportant to see each other and
(11:33):
have that in-person interactionto where, you know, like just
this morning, I had, you know,one of the other associates came
in and said, What do you thinkabout this?
And we're all just trying, likeI said, it's really important of
having those people to mentor.
And as we have new, you know,staff, we have a lot of training
for not just our attorneys, butfor our staff in making sure
(11:56):
that we are working through theprocess and oversight to you
know to give suggestions andfeedback.
And I would like to think that Ithink they feel very comfortable
coming to us and not feelinglike it's a big deal, but but
more the norm for them forpeople to come in and say, what
do you think about this?
Or can you look over you knowwhat I have here?
(12:17):
Or that that feedback is and Iknow it was invaluable to me as
my practice is growing.
I continue, you know, we go toeach other all the time.
We have monthly meetings inaddition to just that open door
policy of let's let's talk aboutthis and see if we can come up
with something.
SPEAKER_01 (12:34):
Have you felt the benefit of that as you are
mentoring kind of the next uhyour associates or the next
round of partners?
unknown (12:43):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (12:44):
I mean, I've really gotten good feedback.
I think that my I also likedoing that because my background
is teaching.
So I really feel like myteaching background lends itself
to this practice, not only myinteraction with parents and
dealing with children, whichcomes up, you know, in quite a
lot of the cases.
So I feel like I have have thatadvantage, but just my nature is
(13:06):
that I want to teach, try andbreak things down and you know,
make things more, you know,simplified.
That was what part of my job.
Uh I was a special educationteacher for a large percentage
of that time that I wasteaching.
And part of that role waslearning how to simplify, how to
break things down, how toexplain it.
The um divorce seems like itshould be.
(13:31):
I use divorce, even though we doa lot of things.
We do premarital agreements andand appeals, and you know, our
practice is broader than that.
But your families that are goingthrough such a difficult time,
there's so much information onthe internet, and that can be
dangerous, right?
It's kind of like looking at anMD and diagnosing yourself.
And because of that, that's oneof the things that's important
(13:53):
to us is being being certifiedspecialists and working towards
that to make sure that we are ontop of all the case law, we're
doing all of those thingsbecause those nuances are the
sorts of things that set youaside and set you apart from
other areas because that's allwe do.
And I'm looking to help simplifythat process for clients to help
(14:16):
walk them through it because itisn't quite as straightforward
as we all feel, right?
Oh, you know, I've got 10friends that got divorced, or I
have, you know, whatever.
They everybody knows somebody,most likely, that's gone through
the process, and it just isn'tthe same for everybody.
And we really pride ourselves ontelling people what they need to
hear, maybe not what they wantto hear.
(14:38):
And that can be difficult, butwe want to help people through
the process, get them, you know,get them to the other side, to
where the new normal is and helpthem through some of that
difficult stuff.
SPEAKER_01 (14:51):
That's uh part of the deal, you know, being uh we
always say like divorce, uhworking divorce cases is is
working with amazing people onkind of their worst day or the
the worst time period of theirlife.
And so you have to have a lot ofcompassion and be able to listen
and and understand what'shappening.
SPEAKER_00 (15:08):
And we want to see them bloom, right?
You know, to blossom.
It's like you said, when theycome in, often it's at their
lowest, and it's not an easyprocess, and it's not a short,
fast process either.
And that can take a toll, and wetry and help, you know, provide
them with a good team, give themyou know information, and
(15:28):
sometimes the scariest part isthe unknown.
And to the extent that we canhelp relieve that, this is
what's going to happen, this ishow it's you know likely to
happen.
Here is your best and worstcase.
Um, it's not a win-losesituation.
It's you know, when families arebreaking up, it's never easy.
And it really is about justfinding the best way to
(15:49):
navigate, help them understandwhat's going to happen so that
it's not as scary, it's stillgoing to be scary, there are
still going to be difficulttimes, but we're looking to
advocate and get them throughthat.
SPEAKER_01 (16:00):
That's so great.
When I was thinking about the,you know, the fact you had your
own firm and you came intoanother firm.
Um were there like different uhways that you needed to change
how you had your divorce processor the the conversations you
were having with clients?
Like, did your current firmprovide that foundation and
(16:23):
process of how they do theirdivorce cases?
And you know, we're gonna dothis, then we're gonna do that,
or and and maybe that wasdifferent than how you did in
the past.
How was that kind of transition?
SPEAKER_00 (16:34):
Well, I think everything starts with the
initial consultation withclients when they come when they
come in, right?
It's probably one of thescariest days.
They never thought they'd bethere.
They've probably been told, likeI said, they've been barred
bombarded by numerous peopletelling them what they should
do.
They don't know what to think.
And part of our process here, weusually have more than one
attorney in consultations.
(16:55):
We don't have an intake personthat's that they'll never see
again.
They come in, they meet with us,and through those consultations,
that was a large part of mylearning process was the format
and kind of the way that bothJenny and Steve, you know,
gather information.
Like I said, they they'rethey're that staple there, and
they both have very differentstyles.
(17:16):
They're both amazing attorneys,but I learned from both of them,
and I'd say my style probablyreflects a little bit of each of
them because as you sit in thoseconsultations, it's just not an
hour, we're gonna shove you outthe door.
We sit there and take the timethat it takes to answer
questions and to take themthrough the process, to gather
information about their specificcase, because all of those
(17:39):
details are very important.
And our advice to anyone is onlyas good as the information we
get.
So if we don't take the time toget that information and walk
them through those those steps,then we likely aren't giving
them necessarily great advicebecause we haven't put in the
time to really we have to dig alittle bit sometimes.
(17:59):
You know, people tell you whatthey perceive to be the most
important thing, and you mayrealize it's actually something
else that's there, but you haveto take the time.
And that was definitelysomething, you know, their style
and their consultation style, Ithink, uh, was I've I've learned
a lot over the years, and but westill do that.
It still is usually two to threeattorneys, and you know, their
(18:22):
meeting, we all have differentperspectives, and we all talk
about different parts of thedivorce process, and you know,
sometimes we have differentideas of well, we we actually
think it might be this, and andthe the potential clients get to
know us, and I think that thatis really important in in
finding a good fit.
It's important for clients tofind someone that they feel
(18:44):
comfortable with because they'regoing to be exposing themselves
and some of their most personalinformation to someone that's a
complete stranger that they'repaying money to.
That that's not easy, and wedon't expect that, but we want
them to get to know us so thatthey know that we're right for
them.
SPEAKER_01 (19:04):
I love it.
Kathy, as we kind of finish uphere, if there's someone
listening to this who's a solopractitioner who's thinking
about joining a larger firm,what advice can you give them as
they're kind of making thatconsideration?
SPEAKER_00 (19:18):
I think it's to get to know them, right?
To find out again if they're agood fit for the model of the
firm and and what they what theyhave to offer, what they can
offer to the firm, you know,what what benefits they're going
to bring to the firm, what thefirm can do for them, and how
they can use those thingstogether.
Um, there's certainly exposure.
(19:39):
There are lots of opportunitiesthrough the local bar
associations, you know, to getum, I think it's important to
have connections.
Whether you're still staying asa solo practitioner, but have
connections just with otherpractitioners that that are out
there and experienced.
I think that that can play a bigrole in success and trajectory.
SPEAKER_01 (20:00):
I love it.
I totally agree.
Like I mentioned, I'm reallyappreciative of your time.
Uh, I appreciate your story andyour insights.
We will look forward to continuefollowing your journey.
And uh again, really, reallyappreciate it.
Kathy was a school teacher for over 13 years before
deciding to get into law.
She then built her own practiceand has recently moved and
merged into a larger practice inthe Arizona area.
And I really hope you enjoyedthis episode.
(00:20):
My name is Tyler Dolph.
I'm the CEO of our digitalmarketing agency called Rocket
Clicks that works exclusivelywith family law firms across the
country.
We also own and operate our ownfamily law firm called Sterling
Lawyers that has grown over 30attorneys in 25 offices across
two different states.
(00:41):
And we have this podcast whichwe love and adore you for
listening to.
Today we continue our law firmowner and partner interview
series.
Kathy has a really great storyto tell from being an educator
to being a solo practitioner tothen merging and joining another
firm and becoming a partnerthere.
Kathy, thank you so much foryour time today.
(01:03):
I'm so excited to hear yourstory.
Would you mind introducingyourself to uh to us and giving
us a little background on kindof how you came to be here?
SPEAKER_00 (01:13):
Okay.
So my name is Kathy Stillman,and I am a partner at Stillman
Smith Gatto, which isexclusively a boutique family
law practice in Phoenix,Arizona.
So I actually, my firstprofession was in elementary and
special education, and I was ateacher for over 13 years and
(01:39):
had some really greatexperiences being a teacher,
really enjoyed it.
Along the way, I decided that Idid not want to be a principal,
which is kind of the next level,right?
When you're as an as aneducator, you could be a
principal, and so I ended updeciding to go to law school.
I had a grandparent that hadpassed away, and my initial
thoughts were that I would maybego into estate planning.
(02:02):
You know, that kind of sparkedthat, and there are just many
ways, you know, the law providesfor a lot of different options
and opportunities.
And so I went to law school.
I thought it was wasfascinating, and I did start off
as uh working in the area ofestate planning.
Uh I was living out, say I wentto law school at the University
(02:25):
of Wyoming and practiced inWyoming in estate planning there
for a while, but then I movedback to Arizona where I had gone
to undergrad.
And that was almost 20 yearsago.
And I had children.
I kind of went back to teachingand did some teaching and that
sort of thing while my childrenwere young, which was a great
(02:48):
profession while I while my kidswere young.
And then I went through adivorce myself.
And through that process, Idecided I wanted to get back
into the legal field.
And so I sat for the bar inArizona and opened my own firm
actually at the time, uh, whichis never easy.
(03:10):
I wore every hat.
I was my paralegal, my intake,billing.
Uh and I actually had a casewith one of the partners at the
firm, and through that, just wasmet with exceptional service.
Every every person I engagedwith at the firm at the time, it
was from Smith and Gaddo.
(03:31):
And every every person Iinteracted with was
professional, every pleading,everything that came out of the
office was done right.
And as a sole practitioner, Iengaged with a lot of different
practitioners and did somefamily law.
But it was through that casethat I get got to know um Jenny
(03:52):
Gatto.
And I ended up doing somecontract work for the firm.
And a few months later, Idecided to join the firm and
close my practice because Iwanted to be a part of that, um,
of that culture, just knowingthat people are looking to do
everything.
They, you know, they were a firmthat people referred to, you
(04:15):
know, both Jennifer Gaddo andSteve Smith, who are the my
other two partners, uh have anexception, exceptional
background history.
The firm had been in place forfor years, over 30 years, and
they were tremendous mentors tome.
They they were just very givingin wanting to share, help people
(04:37):
become better practitioners.
And everything that the firmdoes is is only family law.
We stay in that lane.
We that's that's what we do.
We want to help people throughthat process, and I wanted to
become a part of that.
And that was nine and a halfyears ago.
And through their mentorship, Ihave become a certified
(05:00):
specialist.
All three of us are certifiedspecialists through the State
Bar of Arizona in the area offamily law, and we are all all
three of us are also fellowswith the American Academy of
Matrimonial Lawyers, which is anational organization that
really provides a lot in thesame area and said a lot to me
(05:21):
with regard to Steve and Jennybecause they're it is about
mentorship, it's about buildinga community of practitioners
that work together to becomebetter, to you know, to have
that mentorship across the boardso that there's good
representation for people outthere.
And they've really strived to dothat.
(05:42):
And much of the practitionerthat I've become today is thanks
to their mentorship and the highstandards that they hold uh for
for their own work and and youknow in the courtroom and in the
community.
So it's been I've been veryspecial.
SPEAKER_01 (05:59):
Yeah, that's great.
We uh we love the AML community.
Um, we actually do a lot of workwith them as well.
Uh I think your your story isfascinating.
One that you spent so much timeas a teacher and then have been
able to navigate that prettydramatic career change and and
do so very successfully.
(06:19):
Uh the uh we talked to a lot ofattorneys who start their own
firm, you know, and realize thatyou can't really be an attorney
if you're a solo practitionerbecause you also have to be an
entrepreneur and you have to paythe bills and, like you said, do
intake and all the things.
Uh what was the experience like,you know, having to go through
that, learn all of those things,and then be able to come into an
(06:42):
environment at your current firmto really thrive?
Was it like uh you weight liftedoff your shoulders because you
could then go back to doing whatyou do best?
Or do you miss any of the adminstuff from your own firm?
SPEAKER_00 (06:57):
I wouldn't say I miss it.
And now that I'm a partner, Ibecame a partner uh almost a
year ago in July of 2024, and wedid change the firm name from
From Smith Gatto to StillmanSmith Gatto.
Um, the partner, Sandra From hadretired just before I actually
started working for the firm somany years ago.
(07:20):
It's hard to be a practitioner,and and when you're a sole
practitioner, you sometimes takeon more of a general base of
clientele, different types oflaw, and you don't get to be as
specialized in a particular areasometimes.
It takes it takes quite a bit oftime.
So definitely when I made thattransition, I enjoyed that I was
(07:41):
able to focus on building myskills, building my practice as
a family law practitioner,because you do spend an
exorbitant amount of time withthe admin side of things, and it
makes it hard for you to do doyour work work, the things that
you've been trained to do.
Um, as a partner, I've circledback into doing, you know,
having more administrative uhresponsibilities, but I do enjoy
(08:05):
it.
But but being just part of sucha great organization, it made
it, it really made it worthwhilebecause I knew that I was
working for and with just topquality people.
And like I said, really thementorship was such a big part
of building and growing mypractice and uh very
appreciative of that.
SPEAKER_01 (08:23):
Yeah, it could be pretty lonely, you know, being a
solo practitioner and not havinganyone to lean on, and now
having a team is is prettyawesome.
How would you you know help ummaybe the the people below you
as they're trying to becomepartners in their firm?
You know, was that always thekind of the promise when you
came over, or did you have tohit certain milestones?
(08:45):
Like what what allowed you tobecome successful and become a
partner in the firm?
SPEAKER_00 (08:49):
Well, I think some of it was just my personal you
know drive.
I'm very competitive.
I was an athlete in college, andyou know, I I want to be one of
the best.
I want people to think that andto um to have those skills.
And like I said, for me and partof being part of the AAML, part
of the family law community,it's really important to me to
(09:11):
try and be involved in differenttypes of programming that help
build those skills and open up,you know, to where someone can
call you, feel comfortable tocall you on the phone and say, I
have this problem or I have thisissue, and that's how you learn.
And as many divorces as anyonehas seen, there's just always
(09:31):
something different about everysingle divorce or child custody
or you know, any type of thosesituations, they're so
difficult, and no two situationsare the same.
And having a large community oftrusted professionals that you
can reach out to and talk withabout things that are coming up,
brainstorming, how can we becreative in helping these people
(09:54):
get through one of probably oneof the most difficult times in
their lives?
It's it's hard, and sometimes weget into, you know, or what
experiences have we had withjudges and trying to help build
continue to build that communityso that people don't feel afraid
to pick up the phone and say,Oh, what do you think about
this?
What about that?
And that's you know, we have sixattorneys total in our office.
(10:15):
Um, besides for the three of usthat are partners, we have three
associates, and that is reallyimportant to us is we meet, we
meet regularly to talk aboutcases, to we have that open door
so that if there are questionsabout cases that people have,
again, that that's how we alllearn.
And someone else may have seenit, someone else may have
(10:38):
experienced it, and we get achance to to help build that.
SPEAKER_01 (10:42):
It's awesome to hear about the collaborative nature
of your firm and the opportunityto to leverage the other staff
members on cases.
You know, we've heard of a lotof firms that are very siloed
and and don't have that sameapproach.
Do you do you believe that thatis uh a curated approach that
(11:02):
the the founders instilled intothe culture of the company?
And is that something that youguys really kind of focus on as
an organization?
SPEAKER_00 (11:10):
Absolutely.
It's one of one of the keythings and one of the things we
really try and instill is makesure that you know we're all
just right down the hall fromeach other.
And as much as you know, COVIDand some things have maybe
broadened the whole virtualelement of the practice of law,
we still feel like it's veryimportant to see each other and
(11:33):
have that in-person interactionto where, you know, like just
this morning, I had, you know,one of the other associates came
in and said, What do you thinkabout this?
And we're all just trying, likeI said, it's really important of
having those people to mentor.
And as we have new, you know,staff, we have a lot of training
for not just our attorneys, butfor our staff in making sure
(11:56):
that we are working through theprocess and oversight to you
know to give suggestions andfeedback.
And I would like to think that Ithink they feel very comfortable
coming to us and not feelinglike it's a big deal, but but
more the norm for them forpeople to come in and say, what
do you think about this?
Or can you look over you knowwhat I have here?
(12:17):
Or that that feedback is and Iknow it was invaluable to me as
my practice is growing.
I continue, you know, we go toeach other all the time.
We have monthly meetings inaddition to just that open door
policy of let's let's talk aboutthis and see if we can come up
with something.
SPEAKER_01 (12:34):
Have you felt the benefit of that as you are
mentoring kind of the next uhyour associates or the next
round of partners?
unknown (12:43):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (12:44):
I mean, I've really gotten good feedback.
I think that my I also likedoing that because my background
is teaching.
So I really feel like myteaching background lends itself
to this practice, not only myinteraction with parents and
dealing with children, whichcomes up, you know, in quite a
lot of the cases.
So I feel like I have have thatadvantage, but just my nature is
(13:06):
that I want to teach, try andbreak things down and you know,
make things more, you know,simplified.
That was what part of my job.
Uh I was a special educationteacher for a large percentage
of that time that I wasteaching.
And part of that role waslearning how to simplify, how to
break things down, how toexplain it.
The um divorce seems like itshould be.
(13:31):
I use divorce, even though we doa lot of things.
We do premarital agreements andand appeals, and you know, our
practice is broader than that.
But your families that are goingthrough such a difficult time,
there's so much information onthe internet, and that can be
dangerous, right?
It's kind of like looking at anMD and diagnosing yourself.
And because of that, that's oneof the things that's important
(13:53):
to us is being being certifiedspecialists and working towards
that to make sure that we are ontop of all the case law, we're
doing all of those thingsbecause those nuances are the
sorts of things that set youaside and set you apart from
other areas because that's allwe do.
And I'm looking to help simplifythat process for clients to help
(14:16):
walk them through it because itisn't quite as straightforward
as we all feel, right?
Oh, you know, I've got 10friends that got divorced, or I
have, you know, whatever.
They everybody knows somebody,most likely, that's gone through
the process, and it just isn'tthe same for everybody.
And we really pride ourselves ontelling people what they need to
hear, maybe not what they wantto hear.
(14:38):
And that can be difficult, butwe want to help people through
the process, get them, you know,get them to the other side, to
where the new normal is and helpthem through some of that
difficult stuff.
SPEAKER_01 (14:51):
That's uh part of the deal, you know, being uh we
always say like divorce, uhworking divorce cases is is
working with amazing people onkind of their worst day or the
the worst time period of theirlife.
And so you have to have a lot ofcompassion and be able to listen
and and understand what'shappening.
SPEAKER_00 (15:08):
And we want to see them bloom, right?
You know, to blossom.
It's like you said, when theycome in, often it's at their
lowest, and it's not an easyprocess, and it's not a short,
fast process either.
And that can take a toll, and wetry and help, you know, provide
them with a good team, give themyou know information, and
(15:28):
sometimes the scariest part isthe unknown.
And to the extent that we canhelp relieve that, this is
what's going to happen, this ishow it's you know likely to
happen.
Here is your best and worstcase.
Um, it's not a win-losesituation.
It's you know, when families arebreaking up, it's never easy.
And it really is about justfinding the best way to
(15:49):
navigate, help them understandwhat's going to happen so that
it's not as scary, it's stillgoing to be scary, there are
still going to be difficulttimes, but we're looking to
advocate and get them throughthat.
SPEAKER_01 (16:00):
That's so great.
When I was thinking about the,you know, the fact you had your
own firm and you came intoanother firm.
Um were there like different uhways that you needed to change
how you had your divorce processor the the conversations you
were having with clients?
Like, did your current firmprovide that foundation and
(16:23):
process of how they do theirdivorce cases?
And you know, we're gonna dothis, then we're gonna do that,
or and and maybe that wasdifferent than how you did in
the past.
How was that kind of transition?
SPEAKER_00 (16:34):
Well, I think everything starts with the
initial consultation withclients when they come when they
come in, right?
It's probably one of thescariest days.
They never thought they'd bethere.
They've probably been told, likeI said, they've been barred
bombarded by numerous peopletelling them what they should
do.
They don't know what to think.
And part of our process here, weusually have more than one
attorney in consultations.
(16:55):
We don't have an intake personthat's that they'll never see
again.
They come in, they meet with us,and through those consultations,
that was a large part of mylearning process was the format
and kind of the way that bothJenny and Steve, you know,
gather information.
Like I said, they they'rethey're that staple there, and
they both have very differentstyles.
(17:16):
They're both amazing attorneys,but I learned from both of them,
and I'd say my style probablyreflects a little bit of each of
them because as you sit in thoseconsultations, it's just not an
hour, we're gonna shove you outthe door.
We sit there and take the timethat it takes to answer
questions and to take themthrough the process, to gather
information about their specificcase, because all of those
(17:39):
details are very important.
And our advice to anyone is onlyas good as the information we
get.
So if we don't take the time toget that information and walk
them through those those steps,then we likely aren't giving
them necessarily great advicebecause we haven't put in the
time to really we have to dig alittle bit sometimes.
(17:59):
You know, people tell you whatthey perceive to be the most
important thing, and you mayrealize it's actually something
else that's there, but you haveto take the time.
And that was definitelysomething, you know, their style
and their consultation style, Ithink, uh, was I've I've learned
a lot over the years, and but westill do that.
It still is usually two to threeattorneys, and you know, their
(18:22):
meeting, we all have differentperspectives, and we all talk
about different parts of thedivorce process, and you know,
sometimes we have differentideas of well, we we actually
think it might be this, and andthe the potential clients get to
know us, and I think that thatis really important in in
finding a good fit.
It's important for clients tofind someone that they feel
(18:44):
comfortable with because they'regoing to be exposing themselves
and some of their most personalinformation to someone that's a
complete stranger that they'repaying money to.
That that's not easy, and wedon't expect that, but we want
them to get to know us so thatthey know that we're right for
them.
SPEAKER_01 (19:04):
I love it.
Kathy, as we kind of finish uphere, if there's someone
listening to this who's a solopractitioner who's thinking
about joining a larger firm,what advice can you give them as
they're kind of making thatconsideration?
SPEAKER_00 (19:18):
I think it's to get to know them, right?
To find out again if they're agood fit for the model of the
firm and and what they what theyhave to offer, what they can
offer to the firm, you know,what what benefits they're going
to bring to the firm, what thefirm can do for them, and how
they can use those thingstogether.
Um, there's certainly exposure.
(19:39):
There are lots of opportunitiesthrough the local bar
associations, you know, to getum, I think it's important to
have connections.
Whether you're still staying asa solo practitioner, but have
connections just with otherpractitioners that that are out
there and experienced.
I think that that can play a bigrole in success and trajectory.
SPEAKER_01 (20:00):
I love it.
I totally agree.
Like I mentioned, I'm reallyappreciative of your time.
Uh, I appreciate your story andyour insights.
We will look forward to continuefollowing your journey.
And uh again, really, reallyappreciate it.
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