April 7, 2026 β’ 25 mins
Law firm leadership development is one of the toughest constraints to overcome for growth. Here's the 360 review system we use at Sterling Lawyers.
Jeff Kerlin coaches our entire leadership team at Sterling, so we'll walk you through the exact coaching framework that built our 27-attorney team.
π² Subscribe Now: https://www.youtube.com/@jsterlinghughes
π Get your FREE Law Firm Growth Guide: https://jsterlinghughes.com/
Register Here β‘οΈ www.RocketClicks.com/unlock-sales-secrets
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π CHAPTERS
0:00 - Law Firm Leadership Development: The Growth Constraint
1:09 - Inquiry-Based Coaching: Questions Over Answers
3:58 - How We Start Every Coaching Relationship
4:52 - The 360 Review System That Actually Works
5:15 - Avoiding Toxic Defensiveness in 360 Reviews
6:00 - Superior, Peers, Direct Reports: Getting Honest Feedback
8:25 - Writing Development Plans Attorneys Actually Follow
11:42 - Key Leadership Competencies for Family Law Attorneys
18:35 - Stress Management and Resilience in Family Law
20:10 - What a Good Coach Costs ($1,500-$5,000/Month)
20:49 - Coach vs. Consultant: The Real Difference
22:04 - "They'll Leave After Training" - John Maxwell's Answer
22:50 - Success Story: Turning Weakness Into Superpower
24:36 - Your Team Needs You to Support Them
----------------------
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
we have to let our team fail sometimes.
(00:02):
Even if we could see the slow trainwreck coming they need to experience that.
Hopefully it's not somethinglike certainly major within the firm
and you could stop that.
But if it's something that is manageable,then allow them that experience
because that just makes them strongerto go through that.
Well, hello and welcome to the Sterlingfamily Law Show.
We have a special guest today.
Jeff Kerlin is joining usfrom Sterling Lawyers, our law firm,
(00:25):
and he's going to talk about developinglawyers.
You know, that is the number oneconstraint to growth in a family
law firm is developing others,lawyers, leaders around you to to grow.
That's the number one constraintmore than anything else within the firm.
So we're going to talk aboutdoing 360 reviews.
How do you do them.
What's the mechanics behind them.
What questions do you ask.
(00:45):
How do you start a coaching relationship.
How do you managethe coaching relationship.
And we're going to talk abouthow to go out and find a good coach.
Like what to look for.
What's that avatar look like,not only for you as the leader
of the law firm, but also for your team.
And it's a great episode on eliminating,or at least mitigating the number one
constraint and growing a family law firm.
(01:07):
So welcome, Jeff.
Oh, I love it.
Well,you guys have been a joy to work with.
Thanks for having me here today.
My methodology, it couldchange, maybe based on the individuals,
but I'm primarily an inquiry based coach.
I ask questions,I try to get the person I'm coaching
(01:28):
with just to be more thoughtful about,where they're at.
And do they really understandwhere they're at relative
to where they want to go?
And do they even understandwhere they want to go?
Do they have real Smart goalsrelated to their career goals?
And what have you? And.
It's funny, a lot of people don't.
They're just heads downworking super hard.
And these are, you know,it could be a senior, an attorney or
(01:52):
a, person that owns their own, companythat they're just working hard.
They're notthey're not really spending much time,
getting better, and thusthey're not really helping other people
get better either.
And they just all I know was tokeep my head down and just keep us in it.
And as a coach,I like to come alongside them and
just kind of get them to have a betterperspective and, provide them clarity.
(02:15):
So that's the main thing.
it. Hughes, you were a coach of Kerlinbefore you hired curling at the law firm.
Is that correct?
Yeah. So Jeffand I got to meet each other through,
our church basically is through the.
There was the major connection there.
And then we met for coffee lateron, he ended up joining
a men's Bible group I'm part of,and I got to know him there.
(02:37):
And then I asked Jeff to coach me.
And so, Jeff, you coached me, what, a yearor so ish before you ended up joining
our firm? Okay.
Yeah.
And I can I can go back and sharereflectively kind of what happened
as a coach, each of you, Jeff,I mean, it was all these questions,
you didn't give me you didn'tcome in there with a slate of answers,
ready to to drop them on me.
(02:58):
It was what do you think about that?
And why would you do that?
A lot of why questions. Tell me more.
That's one of your favorite lines.
Tell me more or what else?
That'sanother one of your most popular lines.
And so I've seen you do that with me.
And then now you've, you're doing thatwith our entire leadership
team at the firm.
And also,you're now coaching Tyler for interest
of full disclosure to our audience here.
(03:19):
So you have a lot to share with uson, on the practicality
of going about doing that.
So I, I have acouple questions relative to
whenever youstart a relationship
with one of our attorneys.
As you know,that's our biggest constraint to growth
is having leadership skillswithin our attorneys.
(03:42):
So we canwe can go out and find more leaders
that are not attorneys,but a an attorney, a family law attorney
who is also possessing leadership skillsas a rare individual, indeed.
So how do you do your first analysisof where they're at?
So you know where to jump in with them.
start with questions.
I ask them where they're atto start with,
(04:03):
and I will have already done homeworkif they're an attorney.
And, you know,I can look up their collections
and their net promoter score and,and all sorts of we have, you know,
metrics on just about everything.
But I will ask them, first and foremost,I want to know,
do they know where they're at?
Do they have good clarity on that?
And start from there.
(04:24):
Like, how are you doing today?
Where do you want to get better at?
Where do you think you have gaps?
And people are surprisingly really honest.
Most of us, especially if you sitin a comfortable coaching environment.
I'm here as your advocate.
I'm here to help you.
I'm not here to, you know,punish you or get on you about anything.
If you're desirousof of a better version of yourself,
(04:45):
I'd love to come alongsideyou and help that along.
And usually peoplerespond really well to that.
One of the tools I seen you use quitea bit is the 360 review.
And you did that with mewhen we first started,
and then you've done that with a lot ofour teammates, some you've coached from,
you haven't really coached with,and you're doing that now for yourself.
Actually, it's coincidentally on for you.
(05:07):
So how do you go about doing thatwithout turning that into a toxic,
defensive sort of, experience?
Yeah.
First of all, we needwe try to promote the fact that A36 review
is a positive thing.
It's not a punitive thing.
It's not something that if youif you know it's pass fail.
If you fail this, you're out of here.
You know, it's it's this person is eitherdesirous of, perspective like I'm myself
(05:33):
I'm trying to lead by example or,they're in leadership
and they've just never really gottenthat good feedback.
And what comes out of a 360 review is wewe presented as a very positive thing.
And it ultimately we get the feedbackfrom all the respondents.
We call them stakeholders.
It would be their superior, their peers,and then the direct reports,
(05:53):
and they get that in, in an honest way.
And then I work with the individual too.
They've read it, I've read it, I have themcome up with what are some themes
you'll have one off, thingsthat we kind of discard those,
but if you see three different peoplesaid the same thing, okay, that's a theme.
And then ultimately they get to decide,what do you want to work on,
(06:15):
you know, what do you think would is bestfor you to apply and work on?
And it's not just things that, you know,I wish they would stop doing this.
It's alsoI love it when Jeff Hughes does this
and you hear that three times, like,okay, that's a superpower here.
So you need to lean into that.
That's one of your strengths.
You need to use that.
People never want you to stop doing that.
In fact can you double down on that.
(06:36):
So it's positivereally positive things as well.
You're the actual questions do you.
There's five questionsthat you ask the folks giving feedback.
Right. Do you recall what those areI'm going to wing it.
I don't have it in front of me.
One is what is what is something like?
I'll use you, Jeff,that Jeff is really good at.
(06:58):
What is what is an environmentthat brings out the best in Jeff?
What is somethingthat Jeff should start doing?
So the implication is you'reyou're not currently doing it.
And what is something Jeffshould stop doing?
Was that five?
I, I think though that the last one iswhat should I keep doing.
Keep doing that. We start.
(07:21):
Why do you start doingstop doing and keep doing.
Correct.
And so the respondentsare answering these questions.
They're giving them tosomeone on the team to compile.
Maybe you or someone in our team.
Right. Okay.
And then you'll go through those,kind of organize them and give them to
the subject Yeah.
(07:42):
In an anonymous way.
Well you know if someone says heyI was working with Jeff on this
and I really loved it when he did this.
Well we'll maybe take words out towe don't want Jeff to know who said that.
Whether it's positive or negativewe try to keep it really, truly,
anonymous.
Do you feel like the respondentsthat are responding to that are
do they feel safe, likethey're not somehow going to be identified
(08:03):
as the one giving the negative feedback?
I've had that over the years.
How do you work around that?
assured them that.
And what I will do is when theywhen they give me a response,
I'll do my best to categoricallywrite it down as they spoke. It.
I will read it back to themso they'll know
exactly what the person is going through.
(08:25):
360 will see, and they have an opportunityto tweak words if they want
so that they're comfortable knowing, yeah,that it won't give away.
Who gave this response.
In creating that safety, andI think curling, you pointed out
your job is simply to uncover, right.
To help your leaders understandwhere their opportunities to grow,
but also see the forest for the treesamongst.
(08:48):
Jeff and I, when I started law school,they had a well, to me it was.
No, there was the Socratic method.
They didn't really tell you what to think.
They just ask you questions.
I thought it was the most ridiculous thingon the planet.
Now, obviously, years later, and I seeyou're doing the same thing to me
as my professor in crim Law did,which about annoyed me to death.
I couldn't believe it, but.
At the end of the day, I believemost of us
(09:08):
subconsciously have the answers.
We just need some time and spaceand maybe coaching to come up
with our own truths that we already knoware true about ourselves.
And what do we really want?
And what are we going to lean into?
You don't want towhen absolutely necessary.
Yeah.
Sometimes we have to come alongside itand tell somebody like,
this is what you need to be doing.
(09:30):
But in most cases they they know.
And if they come up with the answerthemselves and you just guide them
to make changes, if necessary to it,that's all the better, because it's just
their idea.
That's reallyhaving a champion in your corner that can,
encourageyou along the path of growth right?
Yeah.
Yep. Family law is unlike other practiceareas.
(09:51):
Your callers are not shoppingfor a service.
They're looking for someone who makes themfeel safe enough to share.
The worst thing happening in their life.
The firm that hears themfirst wins every time.
And that'swhat changed everything at Sterling.
We eventually built that system into fouractionable steps on this free training.
Mary Sankey, who leads our salesteam, is going to break down
(10:12):
the entire four step sales system.
She is sterling sales manager.
She's the one who runs itevery single day.
So go ahead and registerbelow for the sales secrets of an $18
million family law firm.
I'll see you there.
So just to get into the weedsa little bit, for our listeners,
what iswhat is the actual cadence look like?
(10:35):
How often you meeting with,you know, the, the people you coach
and what's involved there?
In case our listenerswant to try this out at their firms.
Yeah.
So within the firm, it itdepends on the role.
Like our managing partnersI meet with once, specifically
with each one once every other week.
(10:57):
But I meet with them a lot in between.
With our CFO,I meet every day with our head of HR.
I meet every other day.
Or head of sales every other day.
So the cadence will tweak a little bithow we go about it.
But it's going over metricslike how are the metrics doing?
And then we keep notes,we use a shared Google document.
(11:18):
So we always have the previous meetingslisted below that we can reference
and bring things to the top,maybe that we never we never finalize.
We want to keep those, visibleand front and center.
And then I'll start offwith just how's it going?
And even if someone says things are goinggreat, this week was especially good.
(11:38):
Awesome. Tell me why.
Like Jeff said, unpack that for me.
And just I like to learn more about them,like, okay,
what makes a good week for that person?
And conversely,what makes a bad week for that person?
And inevitablymost of our issues come along, come around
how we relate to other people.
It could be a client like,I'm really struggling with this client
(12:01):
just I don't know, they're they'recomplaining all the time, what have you.
They don't feel like I've done anything.
Okay, well, what are you doing about it?
You know, what are theyjust and and what they're saying,
help them with behaviors that could maybechange that client's point of view.
It could be a coworker.
It could be, someone outside of this workthat has nothing to do with this
(12:23):
and just help them dealwith the behaviors that,
are appropriate for that.
And what are they?
And again, give them perspective,help them unpack it.
And I find themes with peoplethat maybe some things are avoiding,
some things that are afraid ofand what might happen
if we if you weren't afraid of that,what would you do differently?
(12:43):
That's always an interesting question.
To some degree, we're all maybeheld back by fears of trepidations
that we have about certain things.
Definitely.
So if I if I wanted to become a coach,it feels like
the actual coachingsession is is very much question answer.
Get to know where the opportunities are.
(13:04):
But it also feels like there'san element of preparation, before
and after to, tabulate the notes,understand the themes.
Yeah.
And and there's certainly accountability.
If if Jeff,if I was coaching Jeff in two weeks ago,
he said he was going to do something.
I'm going to if he hasn't told me yetthat he's done it, I'm going to follow up.
(13:26):
Hey, how have thatconversation ever had it?
How did that go about thatyou were going to have?
Did you have it?
Hopefully they're going to say,yeah, I had it
and I forgot to tell you about it,but it went really good or what have you.
So there's a lot of accountability.
Related.
You also do goal setting with peoplewith some of our attorneys.
Maybe they want to get their netpromoter score up.
(13:47):
Okay, okay.
What are you doing about that?
In a lot of times they have no clue.
And attorneyslike a lot of, a high caliber people,
they're little hesitantto raise their hand and ask for help.
They see maybe othersdoing really good at something,
but they're it just seems awkward to,I don't know, to be vulnerable and say,
hey, could you help me with that?
(14:07):
So they just need a little encouragement.
And sometimes it's like attorney thingsI don't know the answers to.
I can help with a lot of people issues,but like, maybe,
we have an attorneysomewhere else in the firm.
That would be.
They would just love to come alongsidesomeone who's trying to get better
at client experience.
And it would actually be a joy for them.
And to facilitateputting that introduction together
is sometimes just part of a process.
(14:30):
Jeff, how would it. Yeah.
Like a lot of our listeners are leadinglaw firms, family law firms.
How would they go aboutfinding a coach for themselves?
So walk us through what to look for. What?
What to avoid.
And maybe it's not just for them.
Like someone like me.
Who? I'm not a good coach.
I know I'm not a good coach,but yet I want my team to develop.
(14:51):
I need to go outside to find thatif I don't have a Jeff Kerlin in house.
So help our listeners understandhow to look for,
identify and select the right coach.
And this would be Jeff, like a businessowner, like know, like a law firm
owner for that, for that ownerfor herself, himself or whatever,
and then for the teambecause we want to develop our team to.
(15:14):
Yeah. WellI would look for someone who's done
coaching beforeand, and has probably,
been in leadership positions.
I'm a big fan ofbeing in leadership positions,
not just somebody who got out of school.
They they got certified in coachingand now they're coaching.
I think there's benefit to the person,but I think someone who's actually
(15:35):
been in leadership,and has can give you real life
examples on how they've handled the thingsthat you're inevitably dealing with.
So that rules our 22 year old lifecoaches.
Right. Yeah.
Yeah, that's kind of funny.
But exactly.
And there's a lot of them out there.
And would they add value? Certainly.
But someone with real life experience,real business experience,
(15:58):
real leadership experience,it comes down to how we relate to people.
Are we are we providing clarity?
We're providingmotivation, accountability, vision.
All those things that we all knowwe need to be doing.
Someone who's already done thatand they know that it's not as simple
as just telling people something once,you know,
we got to tell them over and over and overbefore they really hear
(16:18):
us, that sort of thing.
And I would I would articulate my goalsto a prospective coach, like,
this is what I want to accomplish.
Does a coachtruly have experience having done that?
Can they articulate that?
And then I would probably talk to one ofthe references, at least 1 or 2 of them.
The only thing I would add is, thatI've had the pleasure
(16:40):
of coaching with you both.
And what you both do thatI really appreciate
as a mentee isthat it's never prescriptive.
It's never like, you must do this.
It's always been based onwhen I encountered that situation.
Here's how I handled it.
Or here's how the outcome happened.
That's been very empowering for me to knowthat, okay, I, I can make this decision,
(17:04):
but I'm going to leverage the experiencethat you've had to make it more informed.
Decision. Yeah.
Tyler I think that underscoresa real important point
that we have to let our team failsometimes.
Even if we could see the slow trainwreck coming they need to experience that.
Hopefully it's not somethinglike certainly major within the firm
and you could stop that.
(17:24):
But if it's something that you knowis manageable,
then allow them that experiencebecause that just makes them stronger to
go through that.
Jeff, you're not a lawyer yet.
You're coachinga lot of really high performing lawyers.
You're able to connect and get throughto them in a really kind of a special way.
How do you do thatwith non-lawyers and address the concern
(17:48):
that so many lawyers have, like,they need another lawyer to coach them?
there's still things that are common.
You know, lawyers still want to growprofessionally, growing their skills.
I can still,you know, prompt them and to get out
there, you know, grow professionally.
Are you going to seal things?
Are you going out? Are you networking?
(18:09):
Are you doing thingsthat are going to get you referrals?
You know, that'sall part of your professional growth?
Client experience, empathy,things like that.
This just comes downto how we treat people.
And a lot of that's not intuitive.
Unfortunately,it's it's not taught in schools.
But how you make people feelis everything
you know, they could careless what you say, how they deal
(18:31):
with stress management and resilience,especially in family law.
It's just it's just constant.
And how do they put that in a compartmentand go home and feel good
about what they've done and come backthe next day ready to do it again?
You know, it's just something of it'sjust having someone to talk to about that
and someone if it's your bossor your coach or whatever, to go.
(18:51):
Yeah, I can see that. That's really tough.
Yeah.
But you're making a difference.
And look at,look at and celebrate those differences
that they've made in people's lives.
Accountability and performance.
Most people want to get better.
And they, you know, we look back,those of us who have been blessed
with a coach in, in, in athletics or whathave you, one that pushes us,
one that sees what we're really good atand maybe what we're not good at
(19:16):
and helps us focus on the right thingsand being the best version of ourselves.
And you know that, coach,when you come off the field,
you want to see and hear them say,great job.
You know, like just lights you up.
Our our employees are no different.
Catch them doing something right,say great job.
And you just killed it yesterday.
That was awesome.
I like to still hear that.
(19:36):
So, usually I like to hear from my wife.
So. But, yeah, in, in teamcollaboration, alignment
with the firm's mission and values.
We, we have, you know,we want to empower family
law clients, but we also want towe want to change our family law as done.
That's our mission.
You know, our attorneys,you know, family law is difficult,
but they can resonate with that. Likewe want to we want to make a difference
(19:59):
in the world for all this is done.
That really binds a whole team together.
And that's something that you can doin a one on one coaching relationship.
Do you have a sense for whata what the cost is range.
What are the ranges for a good coachthat could support
some of these law firms.
(20:20):
What they're, they're going toProbably between
1500, on the low end a month.
That could even be a little bitless of it.
Maybe this is just for an attorney.
Coaching, to a full blownbusiness coach could run up to $5,000
a month.
A good coach is going to payfor themselves pretty quickly.
(20:42):
So, and again,they should have references
that have to have folksthat could articulate that.
I've, I've heard lawyers saythey want a consultant and not a coach.
Do you?
What's the distinction there in your mind?
What have you seen?
Yeah.
I don't know that I've heard that,but I guess I think I understand
(21:04):
maybe a consultantand something that, consultant
just seems a little more passive to me.
They're going to answer questions.
They're going to be around,maybe provide some real world examples,
but they're not really in it.
Or to me, a coach is more intimate.
A coach wants to really get to knowthe whole person.
When I coach, I'mnot just interested in coaching.
(21:25):
Just your professional aspect,you know, I'm just interested.
Like Tyler.
I want to make sureTyler's got a great marriage.
He's he's he's spendingplenty of time with his family.
What other goalshe may have fitness goals.
They're all tied together.
We only we have a minute amount of time.
So just coaching on just one thingdoesn't make sense to me.
I think the whole thingshould be considered.
(21:46):
And Tyler needs to knowI care about him from coaching him.
He needs.
No, I mean, his corner.
I'm a safe place. I'm his advocate.
I've got his back.
To me, that's a little more personaland intimate than a consultant.
Yeah I know a lot of our lawyersthat are listening are probably thinking
to some extent, boy,if I spend 1500 a month
(22:06):
to train this individualthey're just going to leave.
And I remember JohnMaxwell years ago said something
that has stuck with me to this day.
I remember this clear as a bell.
What's worse than and thatyou paying a bunch of money to train them
and they leaveis you don't train them and they stay.
So that's the first thing.
Second thingis usually when that person leaves
(22:29):
is because they've surpassed the leader.
So as leaders, it's incumbentupon us to be constantly growing
so we can pass that on to our team.
And in some sense,educationally growth wise,
staying ahead of our teamis important, at least in the key areas.
Good.
(22:50):
well, someservice, we kind of end up here.
I'd love to hear, you know,other than me, of course, a success story.
For your past.
Is there one, you know, individualthat you can can think
about that, that really,you know, was able to leverage,
your relationshipand catapult their career?
(23:10):
Yeah. There's been, there's been timeswhy I do it.
Honestly, it's just so much fun.
We, we have a managing partnerwho is white, is just beloved by everyone.
She's the avatar for every young attorneythat comes in here.
But she's struggledwith giving people the hard truth.
(23:31):
She was sometimes put it in a nice,you know, pretty package and deliver.
And it really was never really delivered.
And helping her get to a pointwhere she could really tell people,
honestly, some things that maybethey didn't want to hear or
she thought they didn't want to hear.
It's become a superpower of hers.
She's someone who, you know,the old adage that you can tell someone
(23:55):
to go to hockey sticksand they they look forward to the ride.
That's her.
Now. She's she's, she's just great at it.
And it's just added to her being alreadya really well-rounded, manager.
And she's, she's leaned into itquite a bit and is really good at it,
and to the pointwhere that people, people,
(24:15):
when she speaks, the room gets quietbecause people want to hear
what she has to say.
And she didn't used to have such a voice.
So You know, little encouragementalong the Yeah.
I didn't wave any magic wand.
I don't think I did much at allother than pointed out to her
and just advocate for her,and she did all the rest.
That's so cool.
And that's likethe power of everything
we've talked about today.
(24:38):
You know, if you're listening to thisand you think,
oh, I'm I'm not a good coachor I can't do that.
Your team needs you.
Your team needs you to support them.
They didn't know that they hadthat, you have their back, and,
it's going to be fun watching them grow.
Good stuff. Guys.
Really appreciate your time.
Excited for the next one.
εεεεεεεε
we have to let our team fail sometimes.
(00:02):
Even if we could see the slow trainwreck coming they need to experience that.
Hopefully it's not somethinglike certainly major within the firm
and you could stop that.
But if it's something that is manageable,then allow them that experience
because that just makes them strongerto go through that.
Well, hello and welcome to the Sterlingfamily Law Show.
We have a special guest today.
Jeff Kerlin is joining usfrom Sterling Lawyers, our law firm,
(00:25):
and he's going to talk about developinglawyers.
You know, that is the number oneconstraint to growth in a family
law firm is developing others,lawyers, leaders around you to to grow.
That's the number one constraintmore than anything else within the firm.
So we're going to talk aboutdoing 360 reviews.
How do you do them.
What's the mechanics behind them.
What questions do you ask.
(00:45):
How do you start a coaching relationship.
How do you managethe coaching relationship.
And we're going to talk abouthow to go out and find a good coach.
Like what to look for.
What's that avatar look like,not only for you as the leader
of the law firm, but also for your team.
And it's a great episode on eliminating,or at least mitigating the number one
constraint and growing a family law firm.
(01:07):
So welcome, Jeff.
Oh, I love it.
Well,you guys have been a joy to work with.
Thanks for having me here today.
My methodology, it couldchange, maybe based on the individuals,
but I'm primarily an inquiry based coach.
I ask questions,I try to get the person I'm coaching
(01:28):
with just to be more thoughtful about,where they're at.
And do they really understandwhere they're at relative
to where they want to go?
And do they even understandwhere they want to go?
Do they have real Smart goalsrelated to their career goals?
And what have you? And.
It's funny, a lot of people don't.
They're just heads downworking super hard.
And these are, you know,it could be a senior, an attorney or
(01:52):
a, person that owns their own, companythat they're just working hard.
They're notthey're not really spending much time,
getting better, and thusthey're not really helping other people
get better either.
And they just all I know was tokeep my head down and just keep us in it.
And as a coach,I like to come alongside them and
just kind of get them to have a betterperspective and, provide them clarity.
(02:15):
So that's the main thing.
it. Hughes, you were a coach of Kerlinbefore you hired curling at the law firm.
Is that correct?
Yeah. So Jeffand I got to meet each other through,
our church basically is through the.
There was the major connection there.
And then we met for coffee lateron, he ended up joining
a men's Bible group I'm part of,and I got to know him there.
(02:37):
And then I asked Jeff to coach me.
And so, Jeff, you coached me, what, a yearor so ish before you ended up joining
our firm? Okay.
Yeah.
And I can I can go back and sharereflectively kind of what happened
as a coach, each of you, Jeff,I mean, it was all these questions,
you didn't give me you didn'tcome in there with a slate of answers,
ready to to drop them on me.
(02:58):
It was what do you think about that?
And why would you do that?
A lot of why questions. Tell me more.
That's one of your favorite lines.
Tell me more or what else?
That'sanother one of your most popular lines.
And so I've seen you do that with me.
And then now you've, you're doing thatwith our entire leadership
team at the firm.
And also,you're now coaching Tyler for interest
of full disclosure to our audience here.
(03:19):
So you have a lot to share with uson, on the practicality
of going about doing that.
So I, I have acouple questions relative to
whenever youstart a relationship
with one of our attorneys.
As you know,that's our biggest constraint to growth
is having leadership skillswithin our attorneys.
(03:42):
So we canwe can go out and find more leaders
that are not attorneys,but a an attorney, a family law attorney
who is also possessing leadership skillsas a rare individual, indeed.
So how do you do your first analysisof where they're at?
So you know where to jump in with them.
start with questions.
I ask them where they're atto start with,
(04:03):
and I will have already done homeworkif they're an attorney.
And, you know,I can look up their collections
and their net promoter score and,and all sorts of we have, you know,
metrics on just about everything.
But I will ask them, first and foremost,I want to know,
do they know where they're at?
Do they have good clarity on that?
And start from there.
(04:24):
Like, how are you doing today?
Where do you want to get better at?
Where do you think you have gaps?
And people are surprisingly really honest.
Most of us, especially if you sitin a comfortable coaching environment.
I'm here as your advocate.
I'm here to help you.
I'm not here to, you know,punish you or get on you about anything.
If you're desirousof of a better version of yourself,
(04:45):
I'd love to come alongsideyou and help that along.
And usually peoplerespond really well to that.
One of the tools I seen you use quitea bit is the 360 review.
And you did that with mewhen we first started,
and then you've done that with a lot ofour teammates, some you've coached from,
you haven't really coached with,and you're doing that now for yourself.
Actually, it's coincidentally on for you.
(05:07):
So how do you go about doing thatwithout turning that into a toxic,
defensive sort of, experience?
Yeah.
First of all, we needwe try to promote the fact that A36 review
is a positive thing.
It's not a punitive thing.
It's not something that if youif you know it's pass fail.
If you fail this, you're out of here.
You know, it's it's this person is eitherdesirous of, perspective like I'm myself
(05:33):
I'm trying to lead by example or,they're in leadership
and they've just never really gottenthat good feedback.
And what comes out of a 360 review is wewe presented as a very positive thing.
And it ultimately we get the feedbackfrom all the respondents.
We call them stakeholders.
It would be their superior, their peers,and then the direct reports,
(05:53):
and they get that in, in an honest way.
And then I work with the individual too.
They've read it, I've read it, I have themcome up with what are some themes
you'll have one off, thingsthat we kind of discard those,
but if you see three different peoplesaid the same thing, okay, that's a theme.
And then ultimately they get to decide,what do you want to work on,
(06:15):
you know, what do you think would is bestfor you to apply and work on?
And it's not just things that, you know,I wish they would stop doing this.
It's alsoI love it when Jeff Hughes does this
and you hear that three times, like,okay, that's a superpower here.
So you need to lean into that.
That's one of your strengths.
You need to use that.
People never want you to stop doing that.
In fact can you double down on that.
(06:36):
So it's positivereally positive things as well.
You're the actual questions do you.
There's five questionsthat you ask the folks giving feedback.
Right. Do you recall what those areI'm going to wing it.
I don't have it in front of me.
One is what is what is something like?
I'll use you, Jeff,that Jeff is really good at.
(06:58):
What is what is an environmentthat brings out the best in Jeff?
What is somethingthat Jeff should start doing?
So the implication is you'reyou're not currently doing it.
And what is something Jeffshould stop doing?
Was that five?
I, I think though that the last one iswhat should I keep doing.
Keep doing that. We start.
(07:21):
Why do you start doingstop doing and keep doing.
Correct.
And so the respondentsare answering these questions.
They're giving them tosomeone on the team to compile.
Maybe you or someone in our team.
Right. Okay.
And then you'll go through those,kind of organize them and give them to
the subject Yeah.
(07:42):
In an anonymous way.
Well you know if someone says heyI was working with Jeff on this
and I really loved it when he did this.
Well we'll maybe take words out towe don't want Jeff to know who said that.
Whether it's positive or negativewe try to keep it really, truly,
anonymous.
Do you feel like the respondentsthat are responding to that are
do they feel safe, likethey're not somehow going to be identified
(08:03):
as the one giving the negative feedback?
I've had that over the years.
How do you work around that?
assured them that.
And what I will do is when theywhen they give me a response,
I'll do my best to categoricallywrite it down as they spoke. It.
I will read it back to themso they'll know
exactly what the person is going through.
(08:25):
360 will see, and they have an opportunityto tweak words if they want
so that they're comfortable knowing, yeah,that it won't give away.
Who gave this response.
In creating that safety, andI think curling, you pointed out
your job is simply to uncover, right.
To help your leaders understandwhere their opportunities to grow,
but also see the forest for the treesamongst.
(08:48):
Jeff and I, when I started law school,they had a well, to me it was.
No, there was the Socratic method.
They didn't really tell you what to think.
They just ask you questions.
I thought it was the most ridiculous thingon the planet.
Now, obviously, years later, and I seeyou're doing the same thing to me
as my professor in crim Law did,which about annoyed me to death.
I couldn't believe it, but.
At the end of the day, I believemost of us
(09:08):
subconsciously have the answers.
We just need some time and spaceand maybe coaching to come up
with our own truths that we already knoware true about ourselves.
And what do we really want?
And what are we going to lean into?
You don't want towhen absolutely necessary.
Yeah.
Sometimes we have to come alongside itand tell somebody like,
this is what you need to be doing.
(09:30):
But in most cases they they know.
And if they come up with the answerthemselves and you just guide them
to make changes, if necessary to it,that's all the better, because it's just
their idea.
That's reallyhaving a champion in your corner that can,
encourageyou along the path of growth right?
Yeah.
Yep. Family law is unlike other practiceareas.
(09:51):
Your callers are not shoppingfor a service.
They're looking for someone who makes themfeel safe enough to share.
The worst thing happening in their life.
The firm that hears themfirst wins every time.
And that'swhat changed everything at Sterling.
We eventually built that system into fouractionable steps on this free training.
Mary Sankey, who leads our salesteam, is going to break down
(10:12):
the entire four step sales system.
She is sterling sales manager.
She's the one who runs itevery single day.
So go ahead and registerbelow for the sales secrets of an $18
million family law firm.
I'll see you there.
So just to get into the weedsa little bit, for our listeners,
what iswhat is the actual cadence look like?
(10:35):
How often you meeting with,you know, the, the people you coach
and what's involved there?
In case our listenerswant to try this out at their firms.
Yeah.
So within the firm, it itdepends on the role.
Like our managing partnersI meet with once, specifically
with each one once every other week.
(10:57):
But I meet with them a lot in between.
With our CFO,I meet every day with our head of HR.
I meet every other day.
Or head of sales every other day.
So the cadence will tweak a little bithow we go about it.
But it's going over metricslike how are the metrics doing?
And then we keep notes,we use a shared Google document.
(11:18):
So we always have the previous meetingslisted below that we can reference
and bring things to the top,maybe that we never we never finalize.
We want to keep those, visibleand front and center.
And then I'll start offwith just how's it going?
And even if someone says things are goinggreat, this week was especially good.
(11:38):
Awesome. Tell me why.
Like Jeff said, unpack that for me.
And just I like to learn more about them,like, okay,
what makes a good week for that person?
And conversely,what makes a bad week for that person?
And inevitablymost of our issues come along, come around
how we relate to other people.
It could be a client like,I'm really struggling with this client
(12:01):
just I don't know, they're they'recomplaining all the time, what have you.
They don't feel like I've done anything.
Okay, well, what are you doing about it?
You know, what are theyjust and and what they're saying,
help them with behaviors that could maybechange that client's point of view.
It could be a coworker.
It could be, someone outside of this workthat has nothing to do with this
(12:23):
and just help them dealwith the behaviors that,
are appropriate for that.
And what are they?
And again, give them perspective,help them unpack it.
And I find themes with peoplethat maybe some things are avoiding,
some things that are afraid ofand what might happen
if we if you weren't afraid of that,what would you do differently?
(12:43):
That's always an interesting question.
To some degree, we're all maybeheld back by fears of trepidations
that we have about certain things.
Definitely.
So if I if I wanted to become a coach,it feels like
the actual coachingsession is is very much question answer.
Get to know where the opportunities are.
(13:04):
But it also feels like there'san element of preparation, before
and after to, tabulate the notes,understand the themes.
Yeah.
And and there's certainly accountability.
If if Jeff,if I was coaching Jeff in two weeks ago,
he said he was going to do something.
I'm going to if he hasn't told me yetthat he's done it, I'm going to follow up.
(13:26):
Hey, how have thatconversation ever had it?
How did that go about thatyou were going to have?
Did you have it?
Hopefully they're going to say,yeah, I had it
and I forgot to tell you about it,but it went really good or what have you.
So there's a lot of accountability.
Related.
You also do goal setting with peoplewith some of our attorneys.
Maybe they want to get their netpromoter score up.
(13:47):
Okay, okay.
What are you doing about that?
In a lot of times they have no clue.
And attorneyslike a lot of, a high caliber people,
they're little hesitantto raise their hand and ask for help.
They see maybe othersdoing really good at something,
but they're it just seems awkward to,I don't know, to be vulnerable and say,
hey, could you help me with that?
(14:07):
So they just need a little encouragement.
And sometimes it's like attorney thingsI don't know the answers to.
I can help with a lot of people issues,but like, maybe,
we have an attorneysomewhere else in the firm.
That would be.
They would just love to come alongsidesomeone who's trying to get better
at client experience.
And it would actually be a joy for them.
And to facilitateputting that introduction together
is sometimes just part of a process.
(14:30):
Jeff, how would it. Yeah.
Like a lot of our listeners are leadinglaw firms, family law firms.
How would they go aboutfinding a coach for themselves?
So walk us through what to look for. What?
What to avoid.
And maybe it's not just for them.
Like someone like me.
Who? I'm not a good coach.
I know I'm not a good coach,but yet I want my team to develop.
(14:51):
I need to go outside to find thatif I don't have a Jeff Kerlin in house.
So help our listeners understandhow to look for,
identify and select the right coach.
And this would be Jeff, like a businessowner, like know, like a law firm
owner for that, for that ownerfor herself, himself or whatever,
and then for the teambecause we want to develop our team to.
(15:14):
Yeah. WellI would look for someone who's done
coaching beforeand, and has probably,
been in leadership positions.
I'm a big fan ofbeing in leadership positions,
not just somebody who got out of school.
They they got certified in coachingand now they're coaching.
I think there's benefit to the person,but I think someone who's actually
(15:35):
been in leadership,and has can give you real life
examples on how they've handled the thingsthat you're inevitably dealing with.
So that rules our 22 year old lifecoaches.
Right. Yeah.
Yeah, that's kind of funny.
But exactly.
And there's a lot of them out there.
And would they add value? Certainly.
But someone with real life experience,real business experience,
(15:58):
real leadership experience,it comes down to how we relate to people.
Are we are we providing clarity?
We're providingmotivation, accountability, vision.
All those things that we all knowwe need to be doing.
Someone who's already done thatand they know that it's not as simple
as just telling people something once,you know,
we got to tell them over and over and overbefore they really hear
(16:18):
us, that sort of thing.
And I would I would articulate my goalsto a prospective coach, like,
this is what I want to accomplish.
Does a coachtruly have experience having done that?
Can they articulate that?
And then I would probably talk to one ofthe references, at least 1 or 2 of them.
The only thing I would add is, thatI've had the pleasure
(16:40):
of coaching with you both.
And what you both do thatI really appreciate
as a mentee isthat it's never prescriptive.
It's never like, you must do this.
It's always been based onwhen I encountered that situation.
Here's how I handled it.
Or here's how the outcome happened.
That's been very empowering for me to knowthat, okay, I, I can make this decision,
(17:04):
but I'm going to leverage the experiencethat you've had to make it more informed.
Decision. Yeah.
Tyler I think that underscoresa real important point
that we have to let our team failsometimes.
Even if we could see the slow trainwreck coming they need to experience that.
Hopefully it's not somethinglike certainly major within the firm
and you could stop that.
(17:24):
But if it's something that you knowis manageable,
then allow them that experiencebecause that just makes them stronger to
go through that.
Jeff, you're not a lawyer yet.
You're coachinga lot of really high performing lawyers.
You're able to connect and get throughto them in a really kind of a special way.
How do you do thatwith non-lawyers and address the concern
(17:48):
that so many lawyers have, like,they need another lawyer to coach them?
there's still things that are common.
You know, lawyers still want to growprofessionally, growing their skills.
I can still,you know, prompt them and to get out
there, you know, grow professionally.
Are you going to seal things?
Are you going out? Are you networking?
(18:09):
Are you doing thingsthat are going to get you referrals?
You know, that'sall part of your professional growth?
Client experience, empathy,things like that.
This just comes downto how we treat people.
And a lot of that's not intuitive.
Unfortunately,it's it's not taught in schools.
But how you make people feelis everything
you know, they could careless what you say, how they deal
(18:31):
with stress management and resilience,especially in family law.
It's just it's just constant.
And how do they put that in a compartmentand go home and feel good
about what they've done and come backthe next day ready to do it again?
You know, it's just something of it'sjust having someone to talk to about that
and someone if it's your bossor your coach or whatever, to go.
(18:51):
Yeah, I can see that. That's really tough.
Yeah.
But you're making a difference.
And look at,look at and celebrate those differences
that they've made in people's lives.
Accountability and performance.
Most people want to get better.
And they, you know, we look back,those of us who have been blessed
with a coach in, in, in athletics or whathave you, one that pushes us,
one that sees what we're really good atand maybe what we're not good at
(19:16):
and helps us focus on the right thingsand being the best version of ourselves.
And you know that, coach,when you come off the field,
you want to see and hear them say,great job.
You know, like just lights you up.
Our our employees are no different.
Catch them doing something right,say great job.
And you just killed it yesterday.
That was awesome.
I like to still hear that.
(19:36):
So, usually I like to hear from my wife.
So. But, yeah, in, in teamcollaboration, alignment
with the firm's mission and values.
We, we have, you know,we want to empower family
law clients, but we also want towe want to change our family law as done.
That's our mission.
You know, our attorneys,you know, family law is difficult,
but they can resonate with that. Likewe want to we want to make a difference
(19:59):
in the world for all this is done.
That really binds a whole team together.
And that's something that you can doin a one on one coaching relationship.
Do you have a sense for whata what the cost is range.
What are the ranges for a good coachthat could support
some of these law firms.
(20:20):
What they're, they're going toProbably between
1500, on the low end a month.
That could even be a little bitless of it.
Maybe this is just for an attorney.
Coaching, to a full blownbusiness coach could run up to $5,000
a month.
A good coach is going to payfor themselves pretty quickly.
(20:42):
So, and again,they should have references
that have to have folksthat could articulate that.
I've, I've heard lawyers saythey want a consultant and not a coach.
Do you?
What's the distinction there in your mind?
What have you seen?
Yeah.
I don't know that I've heard that,but I guess I think I understand
(21:04):
maybe a consultantand something that, consultant
just seems a little more passive to me.
They're going to answer questions.
They're going to be around,maybe provide some real world examples,
but they're not really in it.
Or to me, a coach is more intimate.
A coach wants to really get to knowthe whole person.
When I coach, I'mnot just interested in coaching.
(21:25):
Just your professional aspect,you know, I'm just interested.
Like Tyler.
I want to make sureTyler's got a great marriage.
He's he's he's spendingplenty of time with his family.
What other goalshe may have fitness goals.
They're all tied together.
We only we have a minute amount of time.
So just coaching on just one thingdoesn't make sense to me.
I think the whole thingshould be considered.
(21:46):
And Tyler needs to knowI care about him from coaching him.
He needs.
No, I mean, his corner.
I'm a safe place. I'm his advocate.
I've got his back.
To me, that's a little more personaland intimate than a consultant.
Yeah I know a lot of our lawyersthat are listening are probably thinking
to some extent, boy,if I spend 1500 a month
(22:06):
to train this individualthey're just going to leave.
And I remember JohnMaxwell years ago said something
that has stuck with me to this day.
I remember this clear as a bell.
What's worse than and thatyou paying a bunch of money to train them
and they leaveis you don't train them and they stay.
So that's the first thing.
Second thingis usually when that person leaves
(22:29):
is because they've surpassed the leader.
So as leaders, it's incumbentupon us to be constantly growing
so we can pass that on to our team.
And in some sense,educationally growth wise,
staying ahead of our teamis important, at least in the key areas.
Good.
(22:50):
well, someservice, we kind of end up here.
I'd love to hear, you know,other than me, of course, a success story.
For your past.
Is there one, you know, individualthat you can can think
about that, that really,you know, was able to leverage,
your relationshipand catapult their career?
(23:10):
Yeah. There's been, there's been timeswhy I do it.
Honestly, it's just so much fun.
We, we have a managing partnerwho is white, is just beloved by everyone.
She's the avatar for every young attorneythat comes in here.
But she's struggledwith giving people the hard truth.
(23:31):
She was sometimes put it in a nice,you know, pretty package and deliver.
And it really was never really delivered.
And helping her get to a pointwhere she could really tell people,
honestly, some things that maybethey didn't want to hear or
she thought they didn't want to hear.
It's become a superpower of hers.
She's someone who, you know,the old adage that you can tell someone
(23:55):
to go to hockey sticksand they they look forward to the ride.
That's her.
Now. She's she's, she's just great at it.
And it's just added to her being alreadya really well-rounded, manager.
And she's, she's leaned into itquite a bit and is really good at it,
and to the pointwhere that people, people,
(24:15):
when she speaks, the room gets quietbecause people want to hear
what she has to say.
And she didn't used to have such a voice.
So You know, little encouragementalong the Yeah.
I didn't wave any magic wand.
I don't think I did much at allother than pointed out to her
and just advocate for her,and she did all the rest.
That's so cool.
And that's likethe power of everything
we've talked about today.
(24:38):
You know, if you're listening to thisand you think,
oh, I'm I'm not a good coachor I can't do that.
Your team needs you.
Your team needs you to support them.
They didn't know that they hadthat, you have their back, and,
it's going to be fun watching them grow.
Good stuff. Guys.
Really appreciate your time.
Excited for the next one.
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