March 25, 2026 • 27 mins
On this episode of the STL Bucket List Show, we sit down with Alex — a St. Louis real estate developer and investor — to talk about the transformation of Wash Ave and what it takes to build a thriving urban neighborhood.
Alex shares his journey from engineering into real estate and how nearly two decades of investing in St. Louis led him to focus on the opportunity along Wash Ave. The conversation explores the history of the district — from its roots as a booming garment hub to its evolution into a modern mixed-use neighborhood — and what makes it one of the most walkable areas in the city.
We dive into the strategy behind revitalizing a neighborhood, including the importance of residential density, local businesses, and creating a true live-work-play environment. Alex also discusses the challenges of working with historic buildings, the vision behind new developments like a food hall, and how thoughtful investment can bring long-term stability to downtown.
Along the way, he highlights the role of entrepreneurs, startups, and small business owners in shaping the culture of Wash Ave, and why a strong, vibrant downtown is critical to the future of St. Louis as a whole.
From walkability and community-building to development strategy and local impact, this episode offers an inside look at the people and ideas driving one of the city’s most exciting neighborhoods.
They discuss:
- Alex’s journey into real estate and development in St. Louis
- The history and evolution of Wash Ave
- What makes a neighborhood truly walkable and vibrant
- The importance of residential density and mixed-use development
- Supporting local businesses, startups, and entrepreneurs
- The vision behind new projects like a Wash Ave food hall
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📍 Recorded at Bucket List Podcast Studio, St. Louis, MO
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_02 (00:00):
You can you can live down there, you can wake up,
(00:01):
grab coffee, grab breakfast,walk to the office, walk to your
coffee meeting, walk to yournetworking event, go catch up
with friends after work, grab acocktail, grab a drink, go grab
a cigar, and then still walkright back home again.
SPEAKER_03 (00:16):
If you wanna hear about St.
Louis, tune into the BucketlessShow Weekly.
Hear what Marissa and Luke stay.
It drops every Wednesday.
Got a dope new guest everysingle week.
Buckle up for the ride.
Who's it gonna be?
Who's on the show today?
They rap St.
Louis.
What to do in the loo on a latenight?
(00:37):
A baby, what to do on a datenight.
Yeah.
Bucket list as you cover, theyknow what's going on.
What's going on?
They'll give you eight.
18 different things to do on 19.
If you need one more to choose,yeah.
This city, city, city is theplace we call home.
A place we call home.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (00:53):
St.
Louis, welcome back to the STLbucket list show, the show that
highlights the people, places,and events that make St.
Louis special.
We're here with episode 211.
We've been putting out episodeseach and every week with local
business owners, entrepreneurs,artists, musicians, and really
the movers and shakers of St.
Louis.
We got one of those in heretoday.
Um I've known Alex for a longtime, dating back to when you
(01:14):
were at Spark Coworking.
Um, you're you and your wifewere really starting out there,
and you've built this incrediblebusiness over the years
investing in St.
Louis, um, and specificallyWashington Avenue.
So, you know, I'm excited totalk about the Washab
neighborhood.
Everybody, you know, thatlistens to the show knows the
Washab neighborhood, but youknow it a little bit differently
than everyone.
You've been investing your time,yeah, energy, and all of that.
(01:36):
So take us back to thebeginning, Alex, and and you
know, tell us what drew you tothe neighborhood in the first
part and why the biggest part ofyour mission is revitalizing
that neighborhood.
SPEAKER_02 (01:46):
Yeah.
So uh, so as you mentioned,we've been investing in St.
Louis for like 18 years.
So background's an engineer, wegot into real estate, um,
multifamily, mixed use, youknow, commercial properties, and
learned a lot over the yearsthroughout St.
Louis City, um, that you know,when you can really create a
vibrant neighborhood, create aplace that people want to live,
right, add in the amenities thatmakes it so it's really a
(02:08):
vibrant, you know, dynamic area.
Uh, as we were looking to growour company, you know, in 2022,
2021 era, you know, we're reallytrying to evaluate where do we
think that our skill sets, ourexperience really match where
there was an opportunity for usto grow and make an impact.
We really saw an incredibleopportunity along Washington
Avenue.
So Washav is full of thesehistoric warehouse buildings
(02:30):
from turn of the century, whereyou know, St.
Louis had a thriving garmentdistrict, I think second to only
New York in all of America.
And so it was this huge,thriving area.
And then in the late 90s, early2000s, went through a renovation
uh period where it became a lotof lofts, uh ground floor
retail, a lot of activation.
But it kind of went through arough patch uh the last few
years.
(02:51):
So we saw an opportunity wherethere was a lot of out-of-town
ownership, um, disjointedownership, and no real cohesive
plan, even though the builtenvironment was great.
You know, the walkability, thedensity of retail spacing, the
density of housing, the densityof office, the proximity to
tourism and visitor, you know,uh draws really made this
incredible opportunity if wecould put all the pieces of the
(03:13):
puzzle together.
Um so we started focusing downthere in the fall of 2023.
So it's been about two and ahalf years that we've been
really focusing aggressively onyou know putting the piece of
the puzzle back together, uh,where it started kind of
breaking apart a little bit.
SPEAKER_01 (03:24):
A lot's happened in those two and a half years.
It's been a bit more it feelslike longer than that.
Um, I mean, you guys have one ofthe things I really love about
your guys' firm is is howbullish you are on this
neighborhood because I I wasjust talking to somebody on the
podcast last week.
It's like, if not us, then who?
If not now, then when?
And it's like really it's likeyou're pioneering the build of
this neighborhood, but you'reworking with all these other you
(03:44):
know, small business owners tomake that happen.
Yeah.
You know, a good neighborhoodhas good restaurants, it has
great walkability, it has goodjobs nearby, it has sports,
music, and you guys have all ofthat in Wash Ave.
You've mentioned it to me, andand I've started to look into it
a lot more as we've been, youknow, down there more is Washab
is the most walkableneighborhood in St.
Louis.
Yeah.
You've described it a littlebit, but what does that actually
(04:06):
mean for someone living thereday-to-day?
SPEAKER_02 (04:08):
Yeah, I think what really stands out is there's
only a handful of neighborhoods,I think, in the city that come
close to even having this levelof housing mixed with
restaurants, bars, shops,amenities in the neighborhood,
activities in the neighborhood,as well as jobs and business and
employment and opportunities tostart your own company.
Um, you know, startups and techfirms, as well as, you know,
(04:28):
brick and mortar, you know,retailers.
So, you know, people who livedown there, you know, you can
you can live down there, you canwake up, grab coffee, grab
breakfast, walk to the office,walk to your coffee meeting,
walk to your networking event,grab lunch, go to the salon, get
your hair done, um, go catch upwith friends after work, grab a
cocktail, grab a drink, go graba cigar, um, and then still walk
right back home again.
(04:49):
Like it is that you can reallydo everything in your day-to-day
life without a car.
Yeah, which, you know, St.
Louis is a pretty car-drivencity.
Like it's pretty rare to findthat level of walkability all
within one concentrated area ofreally just a handful of city
blocks.
SPEAKER_01 (05:03):
First Community Credit Union is the official
banking partner of STLBucketless.
They've been serving St.
Louis families for 90 plus yearswith 40 plus local branches and
over 400,000 members frompersonal credit loans to
mortgages to kids and teenaccounts.
They also have a partnershipwith the STL Blues.
You see, Louie here, if you'rewatching on YouTube.
Uh, we're proud to use FirstCommunity.
I use it for my own family andmy own business.
(05:25):
Um, we're excited for them to bethe official banking partner of
STL Bucket List.
And how has your business modelchanged as far as now that
you're just focusing on this onestreet, you're so hyper focused
on that?
Are you avoiding any otherdistractions?
And and how has that, how hasthat changed in your your
investment model?
SPEAKER_02 (05:41):
Yeah, so it's been really interesting.
It's part of what makes WelshAverly so interesting is, you
know, while we aregeographically narrowed our
focus, you know, the style ofprojects we are doing is
incredibly diverse.
So we have an office building,we have retail spaces, we have
parking lots, we have, you know,we're gonna be opening a food
hall.
Uh, we're getting involved inretail activation as well as
residential activation.
(06:02):
So you know, just like theneighborhood, yeah.
We're involved in residential,we're involved in retail, we're
involved in office, we'reinvolved in parking, we're
involved in placemaking andamenity making.
Yeah.
Um, so it all kind of tiestogether that we're doing all of
these things.
We're just doing them in a verygeographically dense location.
SPEAKER_01 (06:16):
And in getting those creative juices out because it's
not just, you know,multifamilies, it's not just
commercial.
Like you're able to be a part ofprojects.
The wash have food hall is onethat, you know, we've got to see
the back, you know, the behindthe scenes of.
And right now, obviously, youwalk into the space, you can't
tell, but if you've seen therenderings of like, you know,
bringing a food hall to thatneighborhood is going to, you
know, just increase so manydifferent things as far as a lot
(06:38):
of those goals that you have isshort-term activation,
entertainment, built around areal neighborhood.
So you mentioned, you know, theidea of two downtowns emerging
in St.
Louis.
You know, what does that mean toyou?
And how do how do those thingscome to fruition?
SPEAKER_02 (06:50):
Well, I think that's one thing we're really seeing
what is working well in ourstretch where we're having good
success and good momentum, isyou know, that long-term
stability that comes fromentrepreneurs that are opening
businesses in the retail spaces,residents that are putting down
routes, whether they're buyingcondos or renting apartments,
that provides kind of that 24-7activation versus some of the
(07:13):
you know entertainment driven.
It's great.
It gets us sales tax dollars, itgets a big crowd of people in,
but then they all leave.
Yeah.
And so what happens on the daysthey're not there?
How does the retailer survive?
How does the business survive?
How do people, you know, becomereally a comfortable, uh, you
know, full-time neighborhood?
It really takes those residents.
It really takes that residentialpiece, the businesses, the
office users, and the retail allplaying together, not just, you
(07:35):
know, an entertainment draw.
Entertainment draw, again, itit's nice and it gives us a
spike, uh, but it doesn't reallysustain momentum and sustain
growth and sustain stability ina neighborhood.
And I think that's what we'reseeing downtown is you know,
along Wash Ave, you've got thisresidential density plus the
office density.
And so that kind of stabilizesthings.
Versus if you just have office,you know, in some pockets, it's
not nearly as active.
(07:56):
Yeah.
Or you just have entertainment,on the days of entertainment,
it's packed, but on the daysthere's no entertainment, it's
pretty quiet.
SPEAKER_01 (08:01):
Yeah.
I mean, every greatneighborhood, when you think
about it, you know, residents inthe neighborhood create that
activity because, you know,Tuesday afternoons when
nothing's going on, it's likewhen you see people walking
around that area.
So what types of residents?
I mean, you're also, you know, amultifamily guy down there as
well, but like what are whattypes of residents are you
seeing move into theneighborhood today?
SPEAKER_02 (08:20):
What has been really interesting is by far I would
say the most diverse umneighborhood from a demographic
standpoint, from a backgroundstandpoint, from an age
standpoint.
Um, you know, we get a lot oftransplants.
So people that are new to ourregion, uh, I think by default,
kind of look in the city core.
You know, it's uh it's a vibrantarea, it's a walkable area.
A lot of people who aretransplants tend to be younger.
(08:40):
Yeah.
So haven't established familiesyet.
They're not looking to buy ahouse yet.
So they're looking for thatreally active community.
Right.
Um, so we get a lot of peoplethat are, you know, employed on
the Metro East side.
Or again, if they're not lookingto buy a house, they're looking
for something that's superwalkable.
Central West End and Clayton ispretty far away if you're
working over in the Metro East.
Um, but then we also get peoplethat work at, you know, the tech
hub that is also around Washab.
(09:01):
So they're working for the NGAor they're working for the
contractors who work for theNGA.
You know, there's a there's atech scene, an AI scene, scale
AI is down there, yeah, glowbuilding, post-building, T-Rex
prep building.
You know, a lot of these arereally based in the tech
industry, financial tech,geospatial tech world that I
don't understand, but I know myresidents work there and get
good jobs and get good salaries.
(09:22):
So it's a very diverseenvironment.
We have people that do startups,we've got a couple of arch grant
winners that actually live inour building.
So it's uh incredibly diverse,and that's kind of what makes it
such a vibrant neighborhood isit's mixing all these different
people from differentbackgrounds that their
commonality is they want awalkable, dense urban
environment.
SPEAKER_01 (09:38):
Exactly.
And you have other groupsdowntown like New and Found,
AHM, and and a lot of localgroups that are also investing
in downtown.
How important is that for OliverProperties and and all of your
other, you know, colleagues indifferent industries to to also
be investing in that?
SPEAKER_02 (09:53):
Yeah, I think it's I think it's great.
I think um having that localbackground and that local
knowledge, we also look beyondour four walls of our
investments.
Right.
You know, I think a lot of timesan out-of-town group, you know,
nothing against an out-of-ngroup, but a lot of times, you
know, you're just looking at theproperty itself, not what makes
the neighborhood, not whathappens around the neighborhood,
not what happens to, you know,to make it active and you know,
(10:13):
connecting everything together.
You know, we see this down onthe landing, they're doing
retail, they're doing, you know,some office, they're doing some
residential, you know, AHM uhhas obviously got quite a few
different projects going on indowntown west.
You know, all these groups arelooking at, you know, this sort
of connective tissue and tryingto not just make their projects
work well, but make theneighborhood grow along the way.
SPEAKER_01 (10:31):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (10:31):
Um and not just looked at the building on its
own.
SPEAKER_01 (10:33):
And that's and that's how I think of like when
I think of business and I thinkof projects like that is that's
how like real progress is madeand real legacy is built through
those connected projects.
Because you know, if somebodyelse in a different neighborhood
is also building in thoseconnect, it's when you go to
these other cities and and St.
Louis has gone through so manyevolutions through that.
And one of the things that thatI love most about Washab is is
(10:54):
the small business community ofwhat's what's been built there.
Obviously, everybody knows thecool lofts and all the cool
things that are down there, butthis business community, just
from walking through the streetand and seeing the entrepreneurs
starting with, you know, alittle shop and turning that
into a restaurant and a market.
I know we're gonna be talking toa few of them, but what what
makes it appealing, you know,besides being in the heart of
downtown and the walkability,like what makes it appealing for
(11:17):
small businesses to startdowntown?
SPEAKER_02 (11:19):
Yeah.
You know, I think what is, youknow, St.
Louis is sort of a gritty city.
Uh and I say that with in a goodgood way.
Uh it is a very entrepreneurialtown.
You know, there's a anopportunity that exists that
you're not boxed out becauseit's all full of national retail
chains, they're paying top rent,and there's no affordability for
someone who's starting up.
So there's, you know, reasonableprice points for someone who's
(11:40):
starting up and looking to reacha retail space.
If they're looking to open up atech firm and looking for some
office space, that's availableas well.
And a lot of these spaces,because they're in these
historic buildings, you know,you could never replicate this.
Your ability to have a smallstartup company, you know, with
these cool vaulted ceilings andloft spaces and big storefront
glass and big open floor plans,you know, in a in a different
(12:02):
neighborhood or in a differentenvironment or a different
country, or not country city,um, in the country, you know,
you'd be paying 3x, 4x, 5x thecost to get these amazing
spaces.
Yeah, and in a modern office,it's never going to feel the
same as it does in these, youknow, historic fabrics.
So, you know, it does take a mixof some of the new and the old
mixed together, but I thinkthat's what draws the
entrepreneur down there is thereare opportunities.
(12:24):
There are openings, there'savailability to say, oh, I can
fill a need, I can fill a gap, Ican slide in here and make this
work.
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And obviously that starts withone project at a time.
You know, and you guys areworking on, you know, one
project, like right now, the youknow, those two, those two core
blocks that you're working onnow, but as that expands, um, so
what are some of uh you knowsome of the unique challenges
(13:12):
that developers face?
Because obviously you mentionedhistoric, you mentioned, you
know, unique constructionprojects, special groups.
I mean, what are some of thosethings that you guys are you
know working on now to preservesome of that history as well?
SPEAKER_02 (13:23):
You know, there's a there's a lot of challenges.
Um there's a multitude ofchallenges, let's be honest.
You know, that's why we starteddown there as a uh value add
group, is we saw an opportunitywhere there was a challenge.
Some of it is the spacesthemselves.
You know, these are historicloft buildings that were not
designed for residential, thatwere not really designed for the
retail like it's being usedtoday.
Right.
(13:43):
These were giant warehouses.
I mean, they were making shirtsand hats and gloves.
And so a lot of them are like120-foot deep buildings.
They run street to street,they're a full city block.
Well, to put a normal retailerin there, it's like walking into
a bowling alley.
You know, it's 120 feet deep and30 feet wide.
So configuring spaces that areusable.
Um, what we've tried to getcreative with in our mixed-use
buildings, we've been able to dothis pretty well.
(14:04):
We've got apartments up above,residents up above.
We take some of these odd retailspaces offline and actually make
them a resident community space.
So there's social space for theresidents, there's, you know, a
game lounge, there's a fitnesscenter, uh, more social space
for the residents to gather.
That's another theme we'reseeing with our residents who do
choose Wash Av, is that theywant connectivity.
You know, they want to knowtheir neighbor, they want to
build a community.
(14:24):
And so we help them build thatcommunity in the building.
And it's a win-win because we'retaking off some of this, you
know, weird retail space that ishard to fit a business in
anyway, um, and making itfunctional for the residents.
So that's been one way we'vetried to get creative.
Um, the other thing is, youknow, kind of connecting between
buildings.
You know, we're looking at thatwith our food hall.
So it's gonna be kind of like anL-shaped space when it's all
said and done.
Yeah.
Um, so we'll have like theregular food hall area, some
(14:46):
rear area, and then sort of asocial game area.
Um, and so it's just alwaysbeing creative and like, all
right, how do you make, youknow, you're working within
these existing brick walls, youcan't move them.
Right.
So how do you make something fitnow knowing those constraints?
SPEAKER_01 (14:58):
Yeah.
And, you know, as we kick offthis video series highlighting
these individual operators andand these individual owners, you
know, what are you hoping thatpeople can see during that is
these types of business ownersthat get to get to build their
lives here?
SPEAKER_02 (15:10):
Yeah, I think that's what's really exciting to pivot
from, you know, in the past,I've talked a lot about, you
know, our projects and and wherewe're focusing and just raising
even just the general awarenessof you know projects that are
going on down here.
Now being able to expand thatstory with other partners and
other businesses that areinvolved downtown, showing that
in the Wash Ave neighborhood,you know, there are all these
local businesses, local owners,um, whether they be, you know,
(15:31):
have a small shop, have a retailspace, have a restaurant, have a
bar, uh, tech startups in insome of the tech offices and
those businesses that are downthere.
There's all this vibrancy and alot of kind of an
entrepreneurial energy that isall connected together, again,
not just on the street, but inthe surrounding buildings as
well.
Um, and so that's what I'mreally hoping to highlight is
(15:51):
there there's others involved.
There is current activity, thereis all of these things already
happening.
Obviously, tons of room for usto grow, and that's why we're
telling the story is yeah, we'renot only here now, but we're
growing.
The neighborhood is growing, theneighborhood's becoming more and
more dynamic, more and morevibrant.
It's already got the good bonestoday of that walkability, but
where can we add moreneighborhood retail?
Where can we add more shoppingexperiences?
(16:13):
Where can we add more, you know,that vintage clothing store?
Uh that it's like, oh yeah,there's all this connected
tissue.
You know, we've got a lot of thefood and beverage today, we've
got a lot of those restaurantstoday.
It's filling in some of thoseother pieces that we're hoping
people can see.
Wow, there really is, you know,all this existing neighborhood
amenities.
Let's add in a few more, let'smove down there, let's check
this place out.
SPEAKER_01 (16:31):
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And it's had so many differentevolutions over the years.
And one thing that people cannotice now when they walk down
Washington Avenue is the patios,the restaurants buzzing, you
know, what goes into actuallycreating street energy.
But the neighborhood has changedso much over the years.
Um, for those people that maybehaven't visited Wash Aven a
while.
Like my my parents, they grew upused to go, they used to go to
(17:13):
the landing.
They used to say the landing wastheir favorite spot.
And now then it was, you know,midtown.
It was all these different areasthat used to have buzzing areas
at different times in the 80s,90s, early 2000s, 2010s.
And now this neighborhood is somuch more than, you know, than
just the dome, and so much morethan where the Rams used to play
at and where, you know, theirfavorite restaurant bar used to
(17:34):
be at, you know, and stuff likethat.
So how has the neighborhoodchanged?
And and for somebody that's downthere every day, it's sometimes
hard to like look back and seehow much the neighborhood's
changed.
SPEAKER_02 (17:42):
Well, I think one thing that's interesting is you
know, when these buildings gothrough these gut renovations
from the outside, they lookexactly the same.
Of course.
You know, a lot of thesebuildings, you know, from 1880
or 1930, from the outside, itlooks like the same building.
That's sort of the cool part.
Uh, but also it's hard to tellwhat else has been changed
inside.
You know, so I think over theyears we've seen this whole
neighborhood go through a realtransition of, you know, textile
(18:02):
manufacturing.
It was an industrial area.
Um, to then it really declinedand you know, a lot of that
industrial left, and so it kindof became empty.
And I think it revived a littlebit as more of like an
entertainment district.
Oh, go down there for the bars,but there's really nothing else
to do.
You just go down there at night.
Right.
Um, and now over the last, youknow, decade here, it's really
transitioned to a residentialneighborhood.
You know, almost all of thosespaces up above the ground floor
(18:23):
are residents.
Apartments, condos, you know,it's people that are living down
here.
There's some office spaces on,you know, not on the main washav
stretch, but just on theperiphery of the neighborhood.
So there's this diverse use.
You know, we're we're seeingwhat really happens when a
neighborhood, an urbanneighborhood, you know, these
are 10, 12 story buildings, uhgoes through a transition, goes
from industrial and office tooffice and residential, and
(18:46):
office and residential andretail.
And that retail activation isdifferent when you've got a
bunch of residents and officeusers.
I think it's really interestingto see this transition.
It's very unique in downtownalong Wash Ave.
You know, a lot of theneighborhoods on the north side
or on the south side have beenresidential since they were
first developed.
Right.
You know, they were built in the20s as duplexes and foreplexes,
and they're still duplexes andforeplexes.
(19:08):
This is really seeing an entireneighborhood transition from,
you know, 30 years ago, next tozero residence and all
industrial to now almost allresidential and you know, hardly
any industrial.
So it's a really cool evolutionto see it really become a
neighborhood.
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SPEAKER_01 (19:59):
And I think it's important for people to
understand that because, likeyou mentioned, like if you lived
in South City, like I used tolive on Kings Highway in
Southampton, and it's like it'sjust a neighborhood with history
of grandmother owned the house,and then they passed it down to
the kid, and everybody knowsthat as a neighborhood.
But when you go to WashingtonAvenue, it's like you associate
that with, you know, a partythat you went to maybe or the
game after the game you went to.
But it's like when you look atthe market of that neighborhood,
(20:21):
because you guys, like youmentioned, you're an analytical
guy.
It's like, you know, what isthat?
What is the residential numbersthere that could actually be
down there?
And what can what can thatneighborhood support?
SPEAKER_02 (20:31):
What is interesting about Washav is if it was, if it
was folded back on itselfinstead of being, you know, a
mile and a half long, it wouldbe about the densest
neighborhood in the city.
Um, it just has that amount ofdensity.
It's just stretch skinny.
Yeah.
Um, you know, so you go threeblocks north and it's much lower
density.
You go a couple blocks south,it's mostly kind of office.
Um, that does create thisdiversity of you've got, you
know, office just a coupleblocks away, then the walkable
(20:53):
retail right along the street,and a lot of the residential
right along the street.
Um, but there is an incrediblelevel of density there.
You know, there is somedevelopment opportunities, and
there's still projects that arefairly new.
You know, Jefferson Arms isgonna come online fairly soon.
Black Line's got a mid-sizedbuilding office conversion to
residential that's coming onlinefairly soon, down closer to the
east end, um, near the archgrounds, mansion house is gonna
(21:13):
be getting completely redone.
So you're still seeing thisresidential growth.
Right.
Um, you know, so I think wecould easily see, you know,
several thousand more residentscontinuing to move into the
neighborhood over the next, youknow, 36 months, you know, maybe
five years, that you'll continueto see this density grow.
Um, and that continues tocreate, you know, it's sort of a
I guess a virtuous cycle up asthere's more retail, it's a more
(21:34):
attractive place for people tolive.
Yeah, as more people live there,there's more demand for retail.
Now there's more opportunitiesfor more retailers to grow.
And it becomes this, oh, now theneighborhood has the amenities,
so I want to live there.
Well, why do I want to livethere?
Right.
Because it has the amenities.
And I think we've really seencompanies want to move there.
Yeah, yeah.
I think we've seen this tippingpoint, you know, over the last
you know, five to ten years of adensity of residential critical
(21:54):
mass has gotten there.
Yep.
And now it's making sure thatwe've got the right retail
activation that matches that.
Exactly.
You know, it's not Just a retailactivation that serves the
out-of-towner or serves thetourist or serves the, you know,
the late night party scene.
SPEAKER_01 (22:06):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (22:06):
It's does this retail serve a neighborhood
where people want to live?
SPEAKER_01 (22:09):
Mm-hmm.
And when you guys are doinglike, you know, your market
research, is there aneighborhood in the country that
really compares to this?
Or is this really I mean, youmentioned the word unique a lot.
Yeah.
But I'm trying to like think ofother cities I've traveled a
lot, but like there's not a lotthat compares to it.
But I'm sure there's othermarkets you look at of like
they've done something likethis.
SPEAKER_02 (22:25):
Yeah, I think what what is unique that I have seen
in St.
Louis.
So, you know, we've we've talkeda lot to Cincinnati.
So Cincinnati has gone throughan urban downtown
revitalization.
That entire focus has been 20city blocks.
You know, again, we talk aboutour downtown being two square
miles.
You know, Wash Ave, you considerit's kind of three blocks north
and south from Fourth Street toJefferson.
(22:46):
Like even just Wash Av as aneighborhood is probably, you
know, 40 city blocks.
So it's two X the size.
So that size, but also becauseit's such a long, skinny
neighborhood, yeah, really doesmake it stand out, I think, as a
pretty unique place.
Um, and its fact that it's youknow so close to high levels of
office density, yet also soclose to you know major league
uh event spaces.
(23:06):
You know, you've got BushStadium, you've got Enterprise
Center, you got the soccerstadium, you got Union Station,
you've got the conventioncenter, you got the arch
grounds.
All of that is literally blocksfrom this neighborhood.
Right.
So I think that combinationreally is unique for St.
Louis, but also unique for youknow Wash Ave.
Because when you compare it tolike other neighborhoods in the
city, like South Grant, greatwalkable neighborhood, right?
(23:27):
Not very dense, mostly justtwo-story buildings.
You got more density, you know,along Euclid of a super dense
area, but you don't have, youknow, the giant tourism draws
that downtown has of you knowthese major sports venues and
things like that.
So the combination of all ofthem in one, you know, compact
neighborhood is really, I thinkwhy I keep saying unique, is
really, really unique.
SPEAKER_01 (23:47):
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three St.
Louis area locations inCottleville Break Shop in St.
Charles and their new hi-filocation in Clayton.
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Let's get back to the show.
And it's and it's important forthe rest of the city because I
think that a lot of people knowthis, but some some St.
Louis residents that might notunderstand is like the
importance of that downtown hubor every other aspect of St.
Louis.
When people come here, they theythere's some great spots over in
South City and all that, butit's not where people are
staying when they're indowntown.
(24:29):
So it's like it's important tohave these, you know, these
amenities where people are at.
Um, because St.
Louis has all these uniquethings, but it's so spread out.
Like I lived in St.
Lou I live in St.
Louis City, but it was SouthCity.
I was 15 minutes from Washat,but I was still in St.
Louis City.
Yeah.
But it was like I was in acompletely different
neighborhood than being indowntown.
But I think that peopleunderstanding is like if when
downtown is successful, theentire metro area is accessible
(24:51):
from Illinois all the way out toSt.
Charles, all the way up to NorthCounty down to South County.
SPEAKER_02 (24:55):
Well, we've seen it firsthand, and I think I've
heard it anecdotally from youknow demographers and other
people that are doing a lot ofan analysis, is that downtown is
that first experience for themajority of transplants to our
city.
You know, a lot of transplants,again, they're moving when
they're younger, not havingfamilies, not having kids yet,
because they're more mobile andon their feet.
So their first experience is,yeah, moving to a city, they
sort of expect to move to anurban core.
(25:17):
Um, and so if we're not meetingthat first impression very well,
you know, that that reflects onthe whole region.
That reflects on our all of ourneighborhoods.
So, like, boy, I don't want tolive in St.
Louis, it's not a great place tolive.
Right.
Versus, no, I want to live inSt.
Louis.
It's a great neighborhood.
It's great, full of greatneighborhoods.
And it's got, you know, thiscommunity and this
entrepreneurial vibe that peopleconnect together.
I think that's the other thingthat's I I I like about uh
(25:38):
Washab as a neighborhood is itis a connected neighborhood.
You know, there are these smallbusinesses, there are startups,
there are the residents who havenow lived there 20, 20-ish
years, uh, but you're still allthis like new move in, you know,
kind of this young vibrancy,young energy that you sometimes
don't have in some of the olderneighborhoods where, well,
that's been this way for youknow 30 years, 50 years, 70
years, 80 years.
This is a very dynamicneighborhood.
(25:59):
You know, it is undergoingchange.
There are new projects gettingdone, there are new businesses
opening, there is new, you know,tech firms happening.
You know, it's that dynamic andthat energy is also really fun
to see.
SPEAKER_01 (26:09):
And part of the reason why we're doing this
12-part series is really justhighlighting those businesses
that have both been there in theneighborhood, but also the ones
making up those.
So, you know, as you start yourday at Rooster or go to lunch at
Sin, who's been in theneighborhood for over 20 years,
or grab a cigar at Stanley's, ordrink amazing cocktails at
Monica, or some of the bestcocktails that you can get in
the city.
And and some of theseentrepreneurs, you know, on the
(26:31):
street that have opened multiplebusinesses because it gives you
that potential to start and whatbetter place to start in the
heart of downtown and have awalking billboard for these
small business owners.
So I'm proud of what you guyshave done and and proud from the
outside, but now, you know,getting a chance to know you
guys and and really committingto this neighborhood, not just
as Oliver properties, but reallyas Wash Av neighborhood, not the
street, the neighborhood itself,and making that an you know an
(26:54):
identity in itself.
SPEAKER_02 (26:55):
Yeah, and and pulling in us and other partners
and other businesses andeveryone, you know, it this is a
neighborhood effort.
You know, there's a lot oforganizations involved in
downtown, but you know, eachkind of has their own focused
area.
This is really, you know,defining a neighborhood.
Like let's really talk about whythis neighborhood is so great
and all the things that arealready here.
You know, there's tons of roomfor it to grow, tons of room for
it to improve, but it's alreadyhere.
It's already a greatneighborhood.
(27:16):
Let's talk about it and letpeople see it and then hopefully
come down and explore it andexperience it them themselves.
SPEAKER_01 (27:20):
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, Alex, I appreciate you forcoming on today and and uh St.
Louis, thank you guys for tuningin and we'll see you guys next
week.
You can you can live down there, you can wake up,
(00:01):
grab coffee, grab breakfast,walk to the office, walk to your
coffee meeting, walk to yournetworking event, go catch up
with friends after work, grab acocktail, grab a drink, go grab
a cigar, and then still walkright back home again.
SPEAKER_03 (00:16):
If you wanna hear about St.
Louis, tune into the BucketlessShow Weekly.
Hear what Marissa and Luke stay.
It drops every Wednesday.
Got a dope new guest everysingle week.
Buckle up for the ride.
Who's it gonna be?
Who's on the show today?
They rap St.
Louis.
What to do in the loo on a latenight?
(00:37):
A baby, what to do on a datenight.
Yeah.
Bucket list as you cover, theyknow what's going on.
What's going on?
They'll give you eight.
18 different things to do on 19.
If you need one more to choose,yeah.
This city, city, city is theplace we call home.
A place we call home.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (00:53):
St.
Louis, welcome back to the STLbucket list show, the show that
highlights the people, places,and events that make St.
Louis special.
We're here with episode 211.
We've been putting out episodeseach and every week with local
business owners, entrepreneurs,artists, musicians, and really
the movers and shakers of St.
Louis.
We got one of those in heretoday.
Um I've known Alex for a longtime, dating back to when you
(01:14):
were at Spark Coworking.
Um, you're you and your wifewere really starting out there,
and you've built this incrediblebusiness over the years
investing in St.
Louis, um, and specificallyWashington Avenue.
So, you know, I'm excited totalk about the Washab
neighborhood.
Everybody, you know, thatlistens to the show knows the
Washab neighborhood, but youknow it a little bit differently
than everyone.
You've been investing your time,yeah, energy, and all of that.
(01:36):
So take us back to thebeginning, Alex, and and you
know, tell us what drew you tothe neighborhood in the first
part and why the biggest part ofyour mission is revitalizing
that neighborhood.
SPEAKER_02 (01:46):
Yeah.
So uh, so as you mentioned,we've been investing in St.
Louis for like 18 years.
So background's an engineer, wegot into real estate, um,
multifamily, mixed use, youknow, commercial properties, and
learned a lot over the yearsthroughout St.
Louis City, um, that you know,when you can really create a
vibrant neighborhood, create aplace that people want to live,
right, add in the amenities thatmakes it so it's really a
(02:08):
vibrant, you know, dynamic area.
Uh, as we were looking to growour company, you know, in 2022,
2021 era, you know, we're reallytrying to evaluate where do we
think that our skill sets, ourexperience really match where
there was an opportunity for usto grow and make an impact.
We really saw an incredibleopportunity along Washington
Avenue.
So Washav is full of thesehistoric warehouse buildings
(02:30):
from turn of the century, whereyou know, St.
Louis had a thriving garmentdistrict, I think second to only
New York in all of America.
And so it was this huge,thriving area.
And then in the late 90s, early2000s, went through a renovation
uh period where it became a lotof lofts, uh ground floor
retail, a lot of activation.
But it kind of went through arough patch uh the last few
years.
(02:51):
So we saw an opportunity wherethere was a lot of out-of-town
ownership, um, disjointedownership, and no real cohesive
plan, even though the builtenvironment was great.
You know, the walkability, thedensity of retail spacing, the
density of housing, the densityof office, the proximity to
tourism and visitor, you know,uh draws really made this
incredible opportunity if wecould put all the pieces of the
(03:13):
puzzle together.
Um so we started focusing downthere in the fall of 2023.
So it's been about two and ahalf years that we've been
really focusing aggressively onyou know putting the piece of
the puzzle back together, uh,where it started kind of
breaking apart a little bit.
SPEAKER_01 (03:24):
A lot's happened in those two and a half years.
It's been a bit more it feelslike longer than that.
Um, I mean, you guys have one ofthe things I really love about
your guys' firm is is howbullish you are on this
neighborhood because I I wasjust talking to somebody on the
podcast last week.
It's like, if not us, then who?
If not now, then when?
And it's like really it's likeyou're pioneering the build of
this neighborhood, but you'reworking with all these other you
(03:44):
know, small business owners tomake that happen.
Yeah.
You know, a good neighborhoodhas good restaurants, it has
great walkability, it has goodjobs nearby, it has sports,
music, and you guys have all ofthat in Wash Ave.
You've mentioned it to me, andand I've started to look into it
a lot more as we've been, youknow, down there more is Washab
is the most walkableneighborhood in St.
Louis.
Yeah.
You've described it a littlebit, but what does that actually
(04:06):
mean for someone living thereday-to-day?
SPEAKER_02 (04:08):
Yeah, I think what really stands out is there's
only a handful of neighborhoods,I think, in the city that come
close to even having this levelof housing mixed with
restaurants, bars, shops,amenities in the neighborhood,
activities in the neighborhood,as well as jobs and business and
employment and opportunities tostart your own company.
Um, you know, startups and techfirms, as well as, you know,
(04:28):
brick and mortar, you know,retailers.
So, you know, people who livedown there, you know, you can
you can live down there, you canwake up, grab coffee, grab
breakfast, walk to the office,walk to your coffee meeting,
walk to your networking event,grab lunch, go to the salon, get
your hair done, um, go catch upwith friends after work, grab a
cocktail, grab a drink, go graba cigar, um, and then still walk
right back home again.
(04:49):
Like it is that you can reallydo everything in your day-to-day
life without a car.
Yeah, which, you know, St.
Louis is a pretty car-drivencity.
Like it's pretty rare to findthat level of walkability all
within one concentrated area ofreally just a handful of city
blocks.
SPEAKER_01 (05:03):
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banking partner of STLBucketless.
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Louis families for 90 plus yearswith 40 plus local branches and
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(05:25):
Um, we're excited for them to bethe official banking partner of
STL Bucket List.
And how has your business modelchanged as far as now that
you're just focusing on this onestreet, you're so hyper focused
on that?
Are you avoiding any otherdistractions?
And and how has that, how hasthat changed in your your
investment model?
SPEAKER_02 (05:41):
Yeah, so it's been really interesting.
It's part of what makes WelshAverly so interesting is, you
know, while we aregeographically narrowed our
focus, you know, the style ofprojects we are doing is
incredibly diverse.
So we have an office building,we have retail spaces, we have
parking lots, we have, you know,we're gonna be opening a food
hall.
Uh, we're getting involved inretail activation as well as
residential activation.
(06:02):
So you know, just like theneighborhood, yeah.
We're involved in residential,we're involved in retail, we're
involved in office, we'reinvolved in parking, we're
involved in placemaking andamenity making.
Yeah.
Um, so it all kind of tiestogether that we're doing all of
these things.
We're just doing them in a verygeographically dense location.
SPEAKER_01 (06:16):
And in getting those creative juices out because it's
not just, you know,multifamilies, it's not just
commercial.
Like you're able to be a part ofprojects.
The wash have food hall is onethat, you know, we've got to see
the back, you know, the behindthe scenes of.
And right now, obviously, youwalk into the space, you can't
tell, but if you've seen therenderings of like, you know,
bringing a food hall to thatneighborhood is going to, you
know, just increase so manydifferent things as far as a lot
(06:38):
of those goals that you have isshort-term activation,
entertainment, built around areal neighborhood.
So you mentioned, you know, theidea of two downtowns emerging
in St.
Louis.
You know, what does that mean toyou?
And how do how do those thingscome to fruition?
SPEAKER_02 (06:50):
Well, I think that's one thing we're really seeing
what is working well in ourstretch where we're having good
success and good momentum, isyou know, that long-term
stability that comes fromentrepreneurs that are opening
businesses in the retail spaces,residents that are putting down
routes, whether they're buyingcondos or renting apartments,
that provides kind of that 24-7activation versus some of the
(07:13):
you know entertainment driven.
It's great.
It gets us sales tax dollars, itgets a big crowd of people in,
but then they all leave.
Yeah.
And so what happens on the daysthey're not there?
How does the retailer survive?
How does the business survive?
How do people, you know, becomereally a comfortable, uh, you
know, full-time neighborhood?
It really takes those residents.
It really takes that residentialpiece, the businesses, the
office users, and the retail allplaying together, not just, you
(07:35):
know, an entertainment draw.
Entertainment draw, again, itit's nice and it gives us a
spike, uh, but it doesn't reallysustain momentum and sustain
growth and sustain stability ina neighborhood.
And I think that's what we'reseeing downtown is you know,
along Wash Ave, you've got thisresidential density plus the
office density.
And so that kind of stabilizesthings.
Versus if you just have office,you know, in some pockets, it's
not nearly as active.
(07:56):
Yeah.
Or you just have entertainment,on the days of entertainment,
it's packed, but on the daysthere's no entertainment, it's
pretty quiet.
SPEAKER_01 (08:01):
Yeah.
I mean, every greatneighborhood, when you think
about it, you know, residents inthe neighborhood create that
activity because, you know,Tuesday afternoons when
nothing's going on, it's likewhen you see people walking
around that area.
So what types of residents?
I mean, you're also, you know, amultifamily guy down there as
well, but like what are whattypes of residents are you
seeing move into theneighborhood today?
SPEAKER_02 (08:20):
What has been really interesting is by far I would
say the most diverse umneighborhood from a demographic
standpoint, from a backgroundstandpoint, from an age
standpoint.
Um, you know, we get a lot oftransplants.
So people that are new to ourregion, uh, I think by default,
kind of look in the city core.
You know, it's uh it's a vibrantarea, it's a walkable area.
A lot of people who aretransplants tend to be younger.
(08:40):
Yeah.
So haven't established familiesyet.
They're not looking to buy ahouse yet.
So they're looking for thatreally active community.
Right.
Um, so we get a lot of peoplethat are, you know, employed on
the Metro East side.
Or again, if they're not lookingto buy a house, they're looking
for something that's superwalkable.
Central West End and Clayton ispretty far away if you're
working over in the Metro East.
Um, but then we also get peoplethat work at, you know, the tech
hub that is also around Washab.
(09:01):
So they're working for the NGAor they're working for the
contractors who work for theNGA.
You know, there's a there's atech scene, an AI scene, scale
AI is down there, yeah, glowbuilding, post-building, T-Rex
prep building.
You know, a lot of these arereally based in the tech
industry, financial tech,geospatial tech world that I
don't understand, but I know myresidents work there and get
good jobs and get good salaries.
(09:22):
So it's a very diverseenvironment.
We have people that do startups,we've got a couple of arch grant
winners that actually live inour building.
So it's uh incredibly diverse,and that's kind of what makes it
such a vibrant neighborhood isit's mixing all these different
people from differentbackgrounds that their
commonality is they want awalkable, dense urban
environment.
SPEAKER_01 (09:38):
Exactly.
And you have other groupsdowntown like New and Found,
AHM, and and a lot of localgroups that are also investing
in downtown.
How important is that for OliverProperties and and all of your
other, you know, colleagues indifferent industries to to also
be investing in that?
SPEAKER_02 (09:53):
Yeah, I think it's I think it's great.
I think um having that localbackground and that local
knowledge, we also look beyondour four walls of our
investments.
Right.
You know, I think a lot of timesan out-of-town group, you know,
nothing against an out-of-ngroup, but a lot of times, you
know, you're just looking at theproperty itself, not what makes
the neighborhood, not whathappens around the neighborhood,
not what happens to, you know,to make it active and you know,
(10:13):
connecting everything together.
You know, we see this down onthe landing, they're doing
retail, they're doing, you know,some office, they're doing some
residential, you know, AHM uhhas obviously got quite a few
different projects going on indowntown west.
You know, all these groups arelooking at, you know, this sort
of connective tissue and tryingto not just make their projects
work well, but make theneighborhood grow along the way.
SPEAKER_01 (10:31):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (10:31):
Um and not just looked at the building on its
own.
SPEAKER_01 (10:33):
And that's and that's how I think of like when
I think of business and I thinkof projects like that is that's
how like real progress is madeand real legacy is built through
those connected projects.
Because you know, if somebodyelse in a different neighborhood
is also building in thoseconnect, it's when you go to
these other cities and and St.
Louis has gone through so manyevolutions through that.
And one of the things that thatI love most about Washab is is
(10:54):
the small business community ofwhat's what's been built there.
Obviously, everybody knows thecool lofts and all the cool
things that are down there, butthis business community, just
from walking through the streetand and seeing the entrepreneurs
starting with, you know, alittle shop and turning that
into a restaurant and a market.
I know we're gonna be talking toa few of them, but what what
makes it appealing, you know,besides being in the heart of
downtown and the walkability,like what makes it appealing for
(11:17):
small businesses to startdowntown?
SPEAKER_02 (11:19):
Yeah.
You know, I think what is, youknow, St.
Louis is sort of a gritty city.
Uh and I say that with in a goodgood way.
Uh it is a very entrepreneurialtown.
You know, there's a anopportunity that exists that
you're not boxed out becauseit's all full of national retail
chains, they're paying top rent,and there's no affordability for
someone who's starting up.
So there's, you know, reasonableprice points for someone who's
(11:40):
starting up and looking to reacha retail space.
If they're looking to open up atech firm and looking for some
office space, that's availableas well.
And a lot of these spaces,because they're in these
historic buildings, you know,you could never replicate this.
Your ability to have a smallstartup company, you know, with
these cool vaulted ceilings andloft spaces and big storefront
glass and big open floor plans,you know, in a in a different
(12:02):
neighborhood or in a differentenvironment or a different
country, or not country city,um, in the country, you know,
you'd be paying 3x, 4x, 5x thecost to get these amazing
spaces.
Yeah, and in a modern office,it's never going to feel the
same as it does in these, youknow, historic fabrics.
So, you know, it does take a mixof some of the new and the old
mixed together, but I thinkthat's what draws the
entrepreneur down there is thereare opportunities.
(12:24):
There are openings, there'savailability to say, oh, I can
fill a need, I can fill a gap, Ican slide in here and make this
work.
SPEAKER_01 (12:30):
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(12:52):
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And obviously that starts withone project at a time.
You know, and you guys areworking on, you know, one
project, like right now, the youknow, those two, those two core
blocks that you're working onnow, but as that expands, um, so
what are some of uh you knowsome of the unique challenges
(13:12):
that developers face?
Because obviously you mentionedhistoric, you mentioned, you
know, unique constructionprojects, special groups.
I mean, what are some of thosethings that you guys are you
know working on now to preservesome of that history as well?
SPEAKER_02 (13:23):
You know, there's a there's a lot of challenges.
Um there's a multitude ofchallenges, let's be honest.
You know, that's why we starteddown there as a uh value add
group, is we saw an opportunitywhere there was a challenge.
Some of it is the spacesthemselves.
You know, these are historicloft buildings that were not
designed for residential, thatwere not really designed for the
retail like it's being usedtoday.
Right.
(13:43):
These were giant warehouses.
I mean, they were making shirtsand hats and gloves.
And so a lot of them are like120-foot deep buildings.
They run street to street,they're a full city block.
Well, to put a normal retailerin there, it's like walking into
a bowling alley.
You know, it's 120 feet deep and30 feet wide.
So configuring spaces that areusable.
Um, what we've tried to getcreative with in our mixed-use
buildings, we've been able to dothis pretty well.
(14:04):
We've got apartments up above,residents up above.
We take some of these odd retailspaces offline and actually make
them a resident community space.
So there's social space for theresidents, there's, you know, a
game lounge, there's a fitnesscenter, uh, more social space
for the residents to gather.
That's another theme we'reseeing with our residents who do
choose Wash Av, is that theywant connectivity.
You know, they want to knowtheir neighbor, they want to
build a community.
(14:24):
And so we help them build thatcommunity in the building.
And it's a win-win because we'retaking off some of this, you
know, weird retail space that ishard to fit a business in
anyway, um, and making itfunctional for the residents.
So that's been one way we'vetried to get creative.
Um, the other thing is, youknow, kind of connecting between
buildings.
You know, we're looking at thatwith our food hall.
So it's gonna be kind of like anL-shaped space when it's all
said and done.
Yeah.
Um, so we'll have like theregular food hall area, some
(14:46):
rear area, and then sort of asocial game area.
Um, and so it's just alwaysbeing creative and like, all
right, how do you make, youknow, you're working within
these existing brick walls, youcan't move them.
Right.
So how do you make something fitnow knowing those constraints?
SPEAKER_01 (14:58):
Yeah.
And, you know, as we kick offthis video series highlighting
these individual operators andand these individual owners, you
know, what are you hoping thatpeople can see during that is
these types of business ownersthat get to get to build their
lives here?
SPEAKER_02 (15:10):
Yeah, I think that's what's really exciting to pivot
from, you know, in the past,I've talked a lot about, you
know, our projects and and wherewe're focusing and just raising
even just the general awarenessof you know projects that are
going on down here.
Now being able to expand thatstory with other partners and
other businesses that areinvolved downtown, showing that
in the Wash Ave neighborhood,you know, there are all these
local businesses, local owners,um, whether they be, you know,
(15:31):
have a small shop, have a retailspace, have a restaurant, have a
bar, uh, tech startups in insome of the tech offices and
those businesses that are downthere.
There's all this vibrancy and alot of kind of an
entrepreneurial energy that isall connected together, again,
not just on the street, but inthe surrounding buildings as
well.
Um, and so that's what I'mreally hoping to highlight is
(15:51):
there there's others involved.
There is current activity, thereis all of these things already
happening.
Obviously, tons of room for usto grow, and that's why we're
telling the story is yeah, we'renot only here now, but we're
growing.
The neighborhood is growing, theneighborhood's becoming more and
more dynamic, more and morevibrant.
It's already got the good bonestoday of that walkability, but
where can we add moreneighborhood retail?
Where can we add more shoppingexperiences?
(16:13):
Where can we add more, you know,that vintage clothing store?
Uh that it's like, oh yeah,there's all this connected
tissue.
You know, we've got a lot of thefood and beverage today, we've
got a lot of those restaurantstoday.
It's filling in some of thoseother pieces that we're hoping
people can see.
Wow, there really is, you know,all this existing neighborhood
amenities.
Let's add in a few more, let'smove down there, let's check
this place out.
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And it's had so many differentevolutions over the years.
And one thing that people cannotice now when they walk down
Washington Avenue is the patios,the restaurants buzzing, you
know, what goes into actuallycreating street energy.
But the neighborhood has changedso much over the years.
Um, for those people that maybehaven't visited Wash Aven a
while.
Like my my parents, they grew upused to go, they used to go to
(17:13):
the landing.
They used to say the landing wastheir favorite spot.
And now then it was, you know,midtown.
It was all these different areasthat used to have buzzing areas
at different times in the 80s,90s, early 2000s, 2010s.
And now this neighborhood is somuch more than, you know, than
just the dome, and so much morethan where the Rams used to play
at and where, you know, theirfavorite restaurant bar used to
(17:34):
be at, you know, and stuff likethat.
So how has the neighborhoodchanged?
And and for somebody that's downthere every day, it's sometimes
hard to like look back and seehow much the neighborhood's
changed.
SPEAKER_02 (17:42):
Well, I think one thing that's interesting is you
know, when these buildings gothrough these gut renovations
from the outside, they lookexactly the same.
Of course.
You know, a lot of thesebuildings, you know, from 1880
or 1930, from the outside, itlooks like the same building.
That's sort of the cool part.
Uh, but also it's hard to tellwhat else has been changed
inside.
You know, so I think over theyears we've seen this whole
neighborhood go through a realtransition of, you know, textile
(18:02):
manufacturing.
It was an industrial area.
Um, to then it really declinedand you know, a lot of that
industrial left, and so it kindof became empty.
And I think it revived a littlebit as more of like an
entertainment district.
Oh, go down there for the bars,but there's really nothing else
to do.
You just go down there at night.
Right.
Um, and now over the last, youknow, decade here, it's really
transitioned to a residentialneighborhood.
You know, almost all of thosespaces up above the ground floor
(18:23):
are residents.
Apartments, condos, you know,it's people that are living down
here.
There's some office spaces on,you know, not on the main washav
stretch, but just on theperiphery of the neighborhood.
So there's this diverse use.
You know, we're we're seeingwhat really happens when a
neighborhood, an urbanneighborhood, you know, these
are 10, 12 story buildings, uhgoes through a transition, goes
from industrial and office tooffice and residential, and
(18:46):
office and residential andretail.
And that retail activation isdifferent when you've got a
bunch of residents and officeusers.
I think it's really interestingto see this transition.
It's very unique in downtownalong Wash Ave.
You know, a lot of theneighborhoods on the north side
or on the south side have beenresidential since they were
first developed.
Right.
You know, they were built in the20s as duplexes and foreplexes,
and they're still duplexes andforeplexes.
(19:08):
This is really seeing an entireneighborhood transition from,
you know, 30 years ago, next tozero residence and all
industrial to now almost allresidential and you know, hardly
any industrial.
So it's a really cool evolutionto see it really become a
neighborhood.
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SPEAKER_01 (19:59):
And I think it's important for people to
understand that because, likeyou mentioned, like if you lived
in South City, like I used tolive on Kings Highway in
Southampton, and it's like it'sjust a neighborhood with history
of grandmother owned the house,and then they passed it down to
the kid, and everybody knowsthat as a neighborhood.
But when you go to WashingtonAvenue, it's like you associate
that with, you know, a partythat you went to maybe or the
game after the game you went to.
But it's like when you look atthe market of that neighborhood,
(20:21):
because you guys, like youmentioned, you're an analytical
guy.
It's like, you know, what isthat?
What is the residential numbersthere that could actually be
down there?
And what can what can thatneighborhood support?
SPEAKER_02 (20:31):
What is interesting about Washav is if it was, if it
was folded back on itselfinstead of being, you know, a
mile and a half long, it wouldbe about the densest
neighborhood in the city.
Um, it just has that amount ofdensity.
It's just stretch skinny.
Yeah.
Um, you know, so you go threeblocks north and it's much lower
density.
You go a couple blocks south,it's mostly kind of office.
Um, that does create thisdiversity of you've got, you
know, office just a coupleblocks away, then the walkable
(20:53):
retail right along the street,and a lot of the residential
right along the street.
Um, but there is an incrediblelevel of density there.
You know, there is somedevelopment opportunities, and
there's still projects that arefairly new.
You know, Jefferson Arms isgonna come online fairly soon.
Black Line's got a mid-sizedbuilding office conversion to
residential that's coming onlinefairly soon, down closer to the
east end, um, near the archgrounds, mansion house is gonna
(21:13):
be getting completely redone.
So you're still seeing thisresidential growth.
Right.
Um, you know, so I think wecould easily see, you know,
several thousand more residentscontinuing to move into the
neighborhood over the next, youknow, 36 months, you know, maybe
five years, that you'll continueto see this density grow.
Um, and that continues tocreate, you know, it's sort of a
I guess a virtuous cycle up asthere's more retail, it's a more
(21:34):
attractive place for people tolive.
Yeah, as more people live there,there's more demand for retail.
Now there's more opportunitiesfor more retailers to grow.
And it becomes this, oh, now theneighborhood has the amenities,
so I want to live there.
Well, why do I want to livethere?
Right.
Because it has the amenities.
And I think we've really seencompanies want to move there.
Yeah, yeah.
I think we've seen this tippingpoint, you know, over the last
you know, five to ten years of adensity of residential critical
(21:54):
mass has gotten there.
Yep.
And now it's making sure thatwe've got the right retail
activation that matches that.
Exactly.
You know, it's not Just a retailactivation that serves the
out-of-towner or serves thetourist or serves the, you know,
the late night party scene.
SPEAKER_01 (22:06):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (22:06):
It's does this retail serve a neighborhood
where people want to live?
SPEAKER_01 (22:09):
Mm-hmm.
And when you guys are doinglike, you know, your market
research, is there aneighborhood in the country that
really compares to this?
Or is this really I mean, youmentioned the word unique a lot.
Yeah.
But I'm trying to like think ofother cities I've traveled a
lot, but like there's not a lotthat compares to it.
But I'm sure there's othermarkets you look at of like
they've done something likethis.
SPEAKER_02 (22:25):
Yeah, I think what what is unique that I have seen
in St.
Louis.
So, you know, we've we've talkeda lot to Cincinnati.
So Cincinnati has gone throughan urban downtown
revitalization.
That entire focus has been 20city blocks.
You know, again, we talk aboutour downtown being two square
miles.
You know, Wash Ave, you considerit's kind of three blocks north
and south from Fourth Street toJefferson.
(22:46):
Like even just Wash Av as aneighborhood is probably, you
know, 40 city blocks.
So it's two X the size.
So that size, but also becauseit's such a long, skinny
neighborhood, yeah, really doesmake it stand out, I think, as a
pretty unique place.
Um, and its fact that it's youknow so close to high levels of
office density, yet also soclose to you know major league
uh event spaces.
(23:06):
You know, you've got BushStadium, you've got Enterprise
Center, you got the soccerstadium, you got Union Station,
you've got the conventioncenter, you got the arch
grounds.
All of that is literally blocksfrom this neighborhood.
Right.
So I think that combinationreally is unique for St.
Louis, but also unique for youknow Wash Ave.
Because when you compare it tolike other neighborhoods in the
city, like South Grant, greatwalkable neighborhood, right?
(23:27):
Not very dense, mostly justtwo-story buildings.
You got more density, you know,along Euclid of a super dense
area, but you don't have, youknow, the giant tourism draws
that downtown has of you knowthese major sports venues and
things like that.
So the combination of all ofthem in one, you know, compact
neighborhood is really, I thinkwhy I keep saying unique, is
really, really unique.
SPEAKER_01 (23:47):
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three St.
Louis area locations inCottleville Break Shop in St.
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Let's get back to the show.
And it's and it's important forthe rest of the city because I
think that a lot of people knowthis, but some some St.
Louis residents that might notunderstand is like the
importance of that downtown hubor every other aspect of St.
Louis.
When people come here, they theythere's some great spots over in
South City and all that, butit's not where people are
staying when they're indowntown.
(24:29):
So it's like it's important tohave these, you know, these
amenities where people are at.
Um, because St.
Louis has all these uniquethings, but it's so spread out.
Like I lived in St.
Lou I live in St.
Louis City, but it was SouthCity.
I was 15 minutes from Washat,but I was still in St.
Louis City.
Yeah.
But it was like I was in acompletely different
neighborhood than being indowntown.
But I think that peopleunderstanding is like if when
downtown is successful, theentire metro area is accessible
(24:51):
from Illinois all the way out toSt.
Charles, all the way up to NorthCounty down to South County.
SPEAKER_02 (24:55):
Well, we've seen it firsthand, and I think I've
heard it anecdotally from youknow demographers and other
people that are doing a lot ofan analysis, is that downtown is
that first experience for themajority of transplants to our
city.
You know, a lot of transplants,again, they're moving when
they're younger, not havingfamilies, not having kids yet,
because they're more mobile andon their feet.
So their first experience is,yeah, moving to a city, they
sort of expect to move to anurban core.
(25:17):
Um, and so if we're not meetingthat first impression very well,
you know, that that reflects onthe whole region.
That reflects on our all of ourneighborhoods.
So, like, boy, I don't want tolive in St.
Louis, it's not a great place tolive.
Right.
Versus, no, I want to live inSt.
Louis.
It's a great neighborhood.
It's great, full of greatneighborhoods.
And it's got, you know, thiscommunity and this
entrepreneurial vibe that peopleconnect together.
I think that's the other thingthat's I I I like about uh
(25:38):
Washab as a neighborhood is itis a connected neighborhood.
You know, there are these smallbusinesses, there are startups,
there are the residents who havenow lived there 20, 20-ish
years, uh, but you're still allthis like new move in, you know,
kind of this young vibrancy,young energy that you sometimes
don't have in some of the olderneighborhoods where, well,
that's been this way for youknow 30 years, 50 years, 70
years, 80 years.
This is a very dynamicneighborhood.
(25:59):
You know, it is undergoingchange.
There are new projects gettingdone, there are new businesses
opening, there is new, you know,tech firms happening.
You know, it's that dynamic andthat energy is also really fun
to see.
SPEAKER_01 (26:09):
And part of the reason why we're doing this
12-part series is really justhighlighting those businesses
that have both been there in theneighborhood, but also the ones
making up those.
So, you know, as you start yourday at Rooster or go to lunch at
Sin, who's been in theneighborhood for over 20 years,
or grab a cigar at Stanley's, ordrink amazing cocktails at
Monica, or some of the bestcocktails that you can get in
the city.
And and some of theseentrepreneurs, you know, on the
(26:31):
street that have opened multiplebusinesses because it gives you
that potential to start and whatbetter place to start in the
heart of downtown and have awalking billboard for these
small business owners.
So I'm proud of what you guyshave done and and proud from the
outside, but now, you know,getting a chance to know you
guys and and really committingto this neighborhood, not just
as Oliver properties, but reallyas Wash Av neighborhood, not the
street, the neighborhood itself,and making that an you know an
(26:54):
identity in itself.
SPEAKER_02 (26:55):
Yeah, and and pulling in us and other partners
and other businesses andeveryone, you know, it this is a
neighborhood effort.
You know, there's a lot oforganizations involved in
downtown, but you know, eachkind of has their own focused
area.
This is really, you know,defining a neighborhood.
Like let's really talk about whythis neighborhood is so great
and all the things that arealready here.
You know, there's tons of roomfor it to grow, tons of room for
it to improve, but it's alreadyhere.
It's already a greatneighborhood.
(27:16):
Let's talk about it and letpeople see it and then hopefully
come down and explore it andexperience it them themselves.
SPEAKER_01 (27:20):
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, Alex, I appreciate you forcoming on today and and uh St.
Louis, thank you guys for tuningin and we'll see you guys next
week.
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