From Lab Bench To Dinner Plate: Funding, Regulation, And The Future Of Cultivated Meat In Australia with Paul Bevan

Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Hello and welcome to The Strange Attractor, an
experimental podcast fromColabs, a transdisciplinary
innovation hub and biotechnologyco-working lab based in
Melbourne, Australia.
I'm your co-host, Sam Wines, andalongside my co-founder Andrew
Gray, we'll delve deep into theintersection of biology,
technology, and society throughthe lens of complexity and

(00:22):
systems thinking.
Join us on a journey ofdiscovery as we explore how
transdisciplinary innovation,informed by life's regenerative
patterns and processes, couldhelp us catalyze the transition
towards a thriving future forpeople and the planet.
Hello and welcome to anotherepisode of The Strange

(00:47):
Attractor.
For this podcast, we sat downwith Paul Bevan, the CEO of
Magic Valley, for a second timeround just to get a bit of an
update on how things have beenpanning out since our last
podcast.
I think it was about a year orso ago.
So we figured it would be niceto get him back on to give us

(01:09):
some updates on all thingscultivated meat.
So yeah, I hope you enjoy thisconversation with Paul.
It's always a pleasure having achat.
So yeah, enjoy this conversationwith Paul Bevan from Magic
Valley.
Welcome.
Yeah, this is our secondpodcast, second time we've sat
down for a chat.

(01:29):
So founder of Magic Valley,you've one of our longest
standing members now, I reckonit would probably almost have to
be longest standing member.
And by that I I mean that isthat is no mean feat to to
maintain your ability to standamidst the the chaos of the past
sort of year and a half witheverything going on.
So yeah, thanks so much forsitting down again and yeah, I

(01:51):
appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 (01:52):
Alright, Sam, thanks for having me.
It's been uh been a long timebetween chats, so yeah, good to
sit down.
Sweet.
All right.

SPEAKER_00 (01:59):
Um sick, let me get my little notebook out.
Um just in case you say anythingreally wise and wonderful for me
to No no danger of thathappening.

SPEAKER_01 (02:11):
For me to jot something down.
Really nervous.
I feel like it's some sort oflike job interview.

SPEAKER_00 (02:16):
It could be.
So so Mr.
Bevan, please tell me um why weshould look at hiring you for
Magic Valley.
What um what skills do you bringto the table?

SPEAKER_01 (02:25):
I have uh six years of experience in the exact role.
Really?
Yeah, don't ask me to tell youabout a time when I anything to
no, I can't.

SPEAKER_00 (02:37):
Job interviews are one of those weird things.
I've never really vibed withthem.
Like I kind of feel like youknow to meet someone like, okay,
cool, great.
Like I I get you, and then Idon't really need you to tell me
how good you are.
I'd rather see how good you are.
Yeah.
I don't know.

(02:57):
I mean, I have no idea wherewe're gonna start with this
either, but I mean, damn, thatthat's like a that's an
interesting thing from myperspective.
I'm curious, yeah, how did howdid you go about hiring or
bringing people onto the team?
Because ours is very intuitive,and then it's kind of like,
let's just throw you into thechaos and see what happens.

SPEAKER_01 (03:14):
Yeah, it's really funny how things have evolved
because I guess I came from um,you know, I went from a
corporate background where wewere like I was hiring people,
which was a very, you know,structured process, interview
process, multiple rounds of ofinterviews.
Um, you know, obviously awritten application first, and
then you got multiple rounds ofinterviews and questions and you

(03:36):
know, assigning people scoresand all that sort of thing.
So then going and and working ina gym, right?
Where there's none of that.
Like it's much more it's it'sit's like, you know, it's can
you submit me?
No, like you know, like it'smuch more um uh pragmatic and
tangible, and and then to tohere where I'm dealing with

(03:57):
completely different skill setsof people that I don't really
have any experience in.
So yeah, ours is very much likeyours now.
It's like, well, someone vouchesthat you're a good person,
great, like that's good enough.
Like, you know, take people attheir word and then like, oh,
here you go, let's see whathappens, type thing.

SPEAKER_00 (04:13):
Yeah, and that's that's why we stress it.
Like we've we've just started upa recent um like conversational
series interviewing interns orpeople who've still at uni but
have got work at startups.
Because yeah, it is reallyinteresting hearing how
different like the act like whenyou actually have to do work in
a startup uh compared to likenormal conventional work, it's

(04:34):
just such a different approachand like almost antithetical to
the way in which we're um alsotaught things at uni.
Like uni is very like, okay,cool, there's a there is a right
and a wrong answer for this testfor the most part, you know.
This is a big sweepinggeneralization.
But yeah, when you're throwninto you know startup land, it's
kind of like no idea, it mighteven work right now and actually

(04:54):
be bad in the long term.
Like, who knows with thesethings, you kind of just gotta
see how it goes.
It's very like nonlinear and allover the place and messy.
And yeah, just finding peoplewho have the capacity to
navigate that and potentiallysteward others through the the
messiness of it all.
Um, yeah, feels reallyimportant.

SPEAKER_01 (05:14):
Well, everything changes so dramatically.
Like you you could give someonea task where you want X outcome
and then they'll do that andthen you'll change your mind, or
something changes in thebusiness in terms of priorities,
and you're like, I want now weneed Y outcome.
And they'll be like, Well, youtold me you needed X.
Well, now okay, I did, but nowwe need Y, and you need to be
able to deal with that.

SPEAKER_00 (05:31):
It's like job descriptions.
I feel like um when we when webrought Jan on to the team, or
when he brought himself on, hewas kind of just like, I'm gonna
work for you guys until you hireme.
And we're like, Oh, okay.
Um, awesome.
Um, but yeah, like the jobdescription was like, Oh, well,
maybe it's this, you know, maybeit's like strategy and hops.
And then like three weeks later,it's like maybe it's slightly,

(05:55):
and then it just like constantlyshifts and changes, and it can
be really hard to pin pin downwhen you're such like a small
company where everyone kind ofhas to do a little bit of
everything.
But as we've started to grow,and I'm curious, you know, if
this is something that you'rehaving to go through as well.
It's like as you start to grow,it's like things start to get a
little bit more passed out intookay, cool, you're gonna do
this, you're gonna do that.

(06:15):
And that process is um, I don'tknow, it's we found it really,
really interesting with havingto scale up to multiple sites
and then exploring Sydney aswell.
It's kind of like, oh gosh, likehow do we how do we make this
work whilst keeping the heart oflike what makes this thing
special?
And I imagine, you know, nodifferent to like MV, you know,

(06:35):
it's like how do you bringpeople into the team and make
sure that as it as it grows, itstill keeps that sort of core
essence.

SPEAKER_01 (06:41):
Yeah, no, my experience is exactly the same.
And and and particularly likeJarn's approach, I think is the
best approach for someone toshow you like what they can
actually do and how they'regonna help the company and and
move you forward is much betterthan someone you know sending a
cold email going, Oh, I've gotthis qualification and that
qualification, particularly whenyou're in a startup.
Like it's so outcome-based.
Like you need to know and thatpeople can do what you need them

(07:03):
to do and show you that they canhelp you and how they're gonna,
you know, push you forward asopposed to theoretically, you
know, what they might be able toto do.

SPEAKER_00 (07:12):
A lot of four things I read in a book that I'd love
to test out with you.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Versus like, yeah, to thatpoint, like, okay, cool.
Like they might approach you andsay, how can I help with
something?
Or is there anything you mightneed a hand with?
Or actually coming to you with,hey, I've looked at what you're
doing.
I reckon you could try this,this, and this.
And it's like, yeah, it's a realdifference when people come at
you with like it's pre-preparedrather than just like spraying

(07:35):
out to try and find anyonewho'll try and give you a job or
something like that.
100%.

SPEAKER_01 (07:39):
Yeah, yeah.
It's because that's giving youmore work.
Like if you come to me and go,Oh, I've got this great
background in, I don't know,marketing, well, then I have to
go and figure out what you cando and how you can help us.
Whereas if you come to me andgo, oh, I've had a look at your
business and I can do this andthis will help you get to this,
it's completely different.
It's like chalk and cheese.

SPEAKER_00 (07:57):
How did you so is that like I'm curious, like uh,
because you've had a couple ofinterns come through now as
well.
Um, and how have you found thatwhole process of like bringing
people through?
Has there been those like thedifferences between folks who
are very much like, all right,I'm in it to win it, I'm gonna
figure out what needs to bedone, versus people who are
like, oh my God, this is notwhat I thought I'd be getting

(08:17):
into.

SPEAKER_01 (08:17):
Yeah, we've had a really good run with interns
probably over the last 12 to to18 months, I guess it's been.
Um, and different um roles,really.
So we've had interns in the lab,and just recently we've had no
interns on the on the commercialside as well.

SPEAKER_00 (08:32):
Cool.
Yeah, I haven't seen any.
I've been down in Notting Hillthe last like eight, twelve
months.

SPEAKER_01 (08:38):
I've missed kind of like I was gonna say I haven't
seen you in about a year, sothat that that checks out.
Um yeah, so we so we've hadwe've had a mix of of both.
And it you're right, there is aum there is a real difference.
And it's not just with interns,it's with everyone, but there is
a real difference uh in levelsof I guess proactivity uh and

(08:58):
also ownership, I guess.
Um and in obviously a startupenvironment, you know, the more
proactive someone is and and themore they take ownership of
things, the the better and theand the further they'll go.
Um whereas you know, as opposedto you know sitting back and
waiting to be told and you knowhaving theoretical answers,
people that just jump in and anddo things are you know worth

(09:19):
their weight in gold.

SPEAKER_00 (09:20):
Yeah.
I when I think of that, I thinkof um like Ella when she sort of
jumped into the to the mix withyou guys, like didn't even
necessarily have the marketingbackground, right?
It was Scicom, I believe, likeshe did like one unit on it.
And then it's like, all right,I'm this this is my life now.
I'm gonna I'm gonna steer thisship.
Um and it's been wonderful towatch that, you know, that whole

(09:41):
arc of that happening.
Um so yeah, but that's a reallygood case in point of kind of
what we're talking about.

SPEAKER_01 (09:47):
Perfect example of someone coming to us and saying,
Oh, I've had a look at yoursocial media, you know, I think
um, you know, you could get alot of improvement from doing
this, this, and this.
And oh, here you go.
I've already done it.
Here it is.
Yeah, yeah.
And so that just created a roleout of thin air because we
weren't looking for anyone, orthere was no role.
It was just someone coming to usand going, I can help you move
from A to B.
Away you go.

SPEAKER_00 (10:07):
I because I did think it was a really strange
like next thing.
Because like a lot of other, youknow, of our other members, they
all acknowledge the importanceof marketing and content
creation and narrativestorytelling.
But um, you know, like, oh, wecan't afford that, we can't
afford that.
And it was I always thought itwas quite an interesting take.
And I guess, you know, you guysare a consumer-facing product in

(10:28):
a way.
Like it's like a yeah, B2B.

SPEAKER_01 (10:30):
Well, eventually we will be.

SPEAKER_00 (10:31):
We don't have a product at this point.
I mean, I've eaten something.

SPEAKER_01 (10:36):
True.
That's true.
But sorry, no, go on.

SPEAKER_00 (10:38):
No, no, no.
I honestly lost the train ofthought.

SPEAKER_01 (10:42):
Um yeah, I can't remember.
We've got a I mean, we've got areally large education piece.
Like, obviously, every businessis different.
We've got a really largeeducation piece with the with
the innovation which you'veeaten um that you know that that
we're developing.
So, you know, you've got toeducate the the consumer.
Um, we don't have a productavailable for for sale as yet.
So we're different to a lot ofbusinesses in that regard.

(11:04):
But marketing is still reallyimportant for a number of
reasons, even if you're not, youknow, at the point of selling a
product.

SPEAKER_00 (11:10):
Signaling the process along the journey,
right?
It's like, hey, we've come fromhere to here and like look how
awesome this is.
And I really that's what I lovedabout how you guys had the
podcast up and running so soearly on.
You know, like, yeah, we need tobe talking about this and the
narrative and what's going on.
And um, yeah, just made forreally entertaining content as
well.

SPEAKER_01 (11:28):
Yeah, well, I mean, things have changed a lot over,
you know, the last five or sixyears.
Whereas, you know, we talk topeople or I would talk to people
about you know what we wouldhave called then clean meat, you
know, people call it cultswagger meat now, as we do.
Um, but I would have mentionedthat then and like nobody knew
had any idea what I was talkingabout.
Whereas now, you know, it'sprobably about half the people
that you know you interact withhave at least heard about it,

(11:48):
understand it, have got someknowledge of it.
But just going back to themarketing piece, it's really
important for investment aswell.
Because if people don't know whoyou are, haven't heard about
you, you know, how can theyinvest in you if they if if
you're not visible?
And so not only with thepodcasts, you know, we've done
you know as much TV as wepossibly can as well to bridge
that getting into mainstream.

SPEAKER_00 (12:09):
Probably like more than any of our members, I think
you've ticked the TV, the TVbucket.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (12:14):
Yeah.
But again, it's just, you know,we can be in, you know, industry
publications or industry mediaor whatever, which is which is
great.
Um, but to to broaden that umbase of you know people being
able to see you, you need to getinto get into mainstream.
And so we'll we'll take any ofthose opportunities as as they
come up.

SPEAKER_00 (12:35):
Speaking of mainstream, um, what's been your
favorite like one of those TVappearances?
Like, as I saw you.
None of them.
I hate it.
I feel like because you SharkTanked it or something like
that, right?
You had Gordon Ramsay.

SPEAKER_01 (12:48):
Shark Tank styles, Gordon Ramsay's um food stars
with uh both both Gordon Ramsayand and Janine Ellis, where yes,
we did have to go and pitchpitch the business or do do
multiple pitches throughout theI guess the casting for the
show, but yeah, the actual show,yeah, you you you're pitching
the the the business, which wasum yeah, very intimidating.
Yeah, super intimidating.
A bit like this, really, withall the cameras and lights.

SPEAKER_00 (13:11):
I know it's a bit like that.
And a star that I'm in front of.
Yeah.
Stop it.
Uh yeah, it's funny when youjust pick up by osmosis, like
when I was in that space.
I'm like, okay, cool, that'swhere you put a light, that's
how it works.
I guess it's kind of just likebasic geometry, not to try and
take it away like lighting is anart form, but um, yeah, it's
kind of just like geometry.

(13:31):
It's like, okay, cool, yeah,that makes sense.
Um the shark tank thing.
Do they invest?

SPEAKER_01 (13:39):
No, we didn't, we we we didn't get any direct
investment um from Gordon orJanine.
But you know, having said that,and this really proves that I
mean it's hard to quantify, butlike so many people um, you
know, that we speak to now willsay, Oh, I saw you on Gordon
Ramsay's Food SARS, oh, I seeGordon Ramsay's charge of
product.
And so I think that um you knowcredibility that that adds in

(14:02):
terms of not just Gordon Ramsay,but you know, mainstream TV, for
example, um, gives you that youknow added credibility of um you
know your business and and whatyou're doing and gives you some
validation.
And that that again, it's reallyhard to quantify, but similar
with the podcast as well, likepeople will say to us, you know,
um uh long after they'veinvested, they're like, oh, I've

(14:25):
listened to your entire podcastseries, you know, and and and
you just don't know how muchthat that actually um you know
adds to people making aninvestment decision or a
purchase decision or or whateverthe case may be.

SPEAKER_00 (14:35):
I I agree, man.
It's like every one of thoseindividual points out there
where if you don't talk aboutit, people don't know.
Yeah.
But and and the more informationthat's out there, the more easy
it is for people to relate toit.
And then the more they becomefamiliar with it, the more they
are more likely to invest in itor more likely to purchase that
product.
But even, you know, yeah, likewe call it marketing, but it's
it really is just like trying toshare a narrative and open up

(14:58):
the Overton window of what'spossible and being like, look,
this is a really viable way tofeed people.
Yes, like acknowledging thatthere is still like energy
things that we need to try andsort out and also getting things
to scale.
But hey, like here is apotential, you know, method of
the future of food, and it issomething worth exploring and
investing in and sort of seeinghow it goes.

(15:19):
Um, and I mean, yeah, so in thattime since since you've been
here as one of our firstmembers, we've had so many
cultivated meat companies comethrough as well.
So it really does feel like it'sit's starting to build a bit of
a movement.
We've even got the peak bodyhere as well, Salag Australia,
which I think we've just gone.
Did we?
How do we go with um I feel likewe've just gone in on something

(15:41):
recently with you guys?
Do you remember what it was?
Are we allowed to talk aboutthat yet?
I don't know what we're talkingabout, so I don't know if I can
help you there.
What are we talking?
What are we talking about?
Oh, I think so there was a we'redoing something with Salag
Australia, maybe looking attrying to get some grant funding
to help cultivated meatcompanies with access to
infrastructure.

SPEAKER_01 (15:58):
Ah, yeah.
I don't know if you've Yeah,there's plenty of those things
going on in the background interms of like joint applications
and submissions.
Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 (16:07):
It feels very alive right now with collaboration,
even you know, between differentorganizations.
Like I know you guys have beenchatting with Pythag about stuff
as well.
It just really feels like Idon't know, like we it's one
thing to again with marketingand content creation, it's one
thing to say a thing and belike, oh, this is amazing, or
like my product does this, andit's or you know, collaboration
is key.

(16:27):
It's another thing to likewitness it happen firsthand in
these spaces that we're tryingto make and then facilitate
that.
So yeah, having like havingPythag and you guys working with
them and then Celeg Australia aswell, it's like um, I don't
know, it really does feel likethat little ecosystem is
starting to to bubble away.

SPEAKER_01 (16:45):
Yeah, I mean it's and you know how much I love it
here and love you and um youknow, all the help that you
you've given us.
But even in building, as yousaid, building the ecosystem,
being able to, you know, engagewith people face to face on a
daily basis just makes thoserelationships um so much more uh
easy, I guess, to progress tolike collaborations and and that

(17:08):
sort of thing.
Um and it really is invaluableto you know to what we're
building because we've beenthrough you know a really quiet
period, I think, in terms of theindustry over probably 12 to 18
months, where it's been reallyhard for for everyone.
Um, you know, but even beingable to talk to other people
within the industry, you know,talk to another founder, um,
talk to people that are goingthrough you know similar

(17:28):
headwinds that you're goingthrough, and then come out the
other side of it, which I thinkwe, you know, we've been doing
over the past probably three,three or four months, um, work
on more collaborations, youknow, do more joint ventures.
Uh yeah, it's just super, supervaluable.

SPEAKER_00 (17:42):
Yeah, man.
It's been, it really has beenhectic.
Like the last 12 months, uh, Ithink across the board for for
innovation, we we really noticedlike an like a dip in people
expressing interest or peopleexpressing interest, but then
being like, oh, but like, youknow, our investors are just,
you know, not uh not putting themoney down, or there's a there

(18:03):
was a lot of, I don't knowwhether it's the stuff happening
in the US with the tariffs, Idon't know whether it's other
geopolitical tensions that arehappening through APAC or I
don't know, whether the wind'sjust blowing the wrong way, but
it really has felt like likeeverywhere, say aside from the
classics like MedTech, HealthTech, which seem to kind of
weather all storms.

(18:23):
Like, and I guess as well, AI,the real hype bubble of AI was
sort of like last year as well,with um GPT 4 and stuff coming
out.
Um, yeah, so you're feeling likeit's it's coming back on track.
So that's exciting.
I mean, I feel like you won whatdid you win?
Like most perseverant founder ofthe year award.
Was that what what was that?

SPEAKER_01 (18:43):
I mean, that sounds pretty good.
Um, yeah, yeah, somethingsomething something like that.
Um what was the actual tit titleof it?
No, I don't don't ask, I don'tknow.
I'm not gonna remember now.

SPEAKER_00 (18:53):
I feel like it was something like that.
I remember seeing it and I'mlike, I have to actually agree
with that award.
Like, I feel like you aresomeone who just like really
you've committed to this andyou're just like pushing as hard
as you can, even though it'spushing you beyond breaking
point multiple times, you know.
Um, and you just no matter what,you're still just like, I know

(19:17):
that this can be done and thatthis is a worthwhile mission,
and I'm gonna try and make ithappen sort of no matter what
the cost.
And yeah, like I don't know, alot of the time we might not
hear the sacrifice or the thestories about how bloody hard it
is, um, you know, because it allhappens behind closed doors,
like you're saying when we talkto other people in the space.
But um no, yeah, just very muchlike a public hat tip to you for

(19:41):
like just grinding away becauseI know how painful it can be to
try and make something happen,even though other people are
like, Yeah, yeah, sure, that'sgreat, but maybe not actively
supporting if that makes sense.
Yeah.
Like plenty of people cheeringon from the sidelines.
Yeah.
Or like getting mauled by alion.

SPEAKER_01 (19:57):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Watching you get mauled.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, no, I appreciate that.
Yeah, look, it's uh it'sdefinitely been uh, you know, a
tough, tough few years to beperfectly honest.
And you know, as I mentionedbefore, you know, we're super
grateful for for your support,collab support.
And without it, we wouldn't havewe wouldn't have got through it.
But I think, you know, throughthose times, you know, the the

(20:21):
the trust that you have, Iguess, in your team and the and
the people around you to be ableto get through it um and see it
through is is is reallyimportant.
And you know, you go throughsome of those hard times, but it
also, you know, you've got tohave some uncomfortable
conversations a lot of the timeand you and you're facing things
that you you know you neverexpected and you never thought

(20:43):
would would come up.
But I've found that you know,through that, those
relationships have actuallystrengthened through those
through those really difficulttimes.
You know, relationships that youdidn't think were, you know,
that deep turn out to be waydeeper than than than you
expect.
And it just really fortifies youlike for for moving forward.
I mean, as you said, like I'mpretty committed.

(21:06):
I it might be, you know, I Idon't know if this is a
personality trait or apersonality fault, but I'm like
pretty stubborn and determinedto make sure that that this is
successful.
Um and so I just keep keep onpersevering, as as you said, and
you come up with solutions thatyou know you you just find a
way.

(21:26):
You just have to find a way.
And so being through many ofthose those periods over the
past, you know, particularly thelast 12 months, when you know,
particularly companies in in ourspace, you know, would have
faced uh you know, it's not justus, it's the entire industry in
terms of like fundraisingchallenges, and which is really
difficult when you know you're apre-revenue company and you
you're relying on investors oror grants uh to be able to just

(21:50):
run the business on a day-to-daybasis, you know, let alone hit
milestones and make progress andpush the business forward.
You know, we've also had a youknow a lot of great uh
investors, particularlymission-aligned uh investors,
that um, you know, helps youknow on a day-to-day basis, you
know, it's not that you need areminder of why you're doing it,

(22:11):
but um, you know, as you know,I'm completely mission-driven in
in terms of what we're doing.
And, you know, those people thatare invested in you, you know,
you've got to think that, youknow, that you might not hear
from them all the time, butthey've supported you, you know,
they've got skin in the game,you know, as it were.
Um, and there's just so manydrivers, you know, for for what
we're doing.
Obviously for me, it's you know,around animal welfare, but um,

(22:33):
you know, there's so manyreasons for us to be doing what
we're doing, and it really doesneed to happen.
And so um, yeah, I'm pretty uhpretty bloody-minded when it
when it comes to that.
And but you know, having saidthat, you know, and you've seen
them, um, there's been a lot ofdowntimes, you know, as well.
That's been, you know, you justyou don't know what to do.
You're like, you're hit withthis hurdle and it's like, I I

(22:54):
you just don't know what to do.
Um, you know, and it's peoplelike yourself, other founders,
you know, that you rely on um tobe able to not necessarily come
up with a solution, but justsomeone that you can relate to
and have that conversation with.
It's been seen and heardsometimes is is all that it
matters.
Yeah, or whatever the saying is,you know, a problem shared is a

(23:14):
problem halved, or you know,what whatever it is.
And it it it it's so truebecause you you are isolated a
lot of the time.
And you know, as a solo founder,um you feel that uh you know a
lot.
And depending on yourpersonality type, some people
will withdraw, some people youknow will need to talk through
things a lot more.
Um but it is really it is super,super, super challenging.

(23:36):
And then, you know, sometimesyou know you might be
embarrassed to to share things,you know, if things are going
badly or you don't know how tosolve a problem, you know,
there's that um you know,reticence to to talk about it
and bring it into the open.
You know, what are the peoplegoing to judge me?
You know, what are they gonnasay, you know, all sorts of
things.
And it's really difficult as abusiness owner because, you

(23:56):
know, as you said, you know,they've got people cheering you
on from the from the sidelines,but um and people will give you
like m well-meaning advice as aswell.
But it you know, that will oftencome from um you know, people
that haven't had the sameexperience.
And it's it's you know, the theheart is in the right place, but
that what they're telling you iscompletely either useless or

(24:19):
detriment detrimental or youknow, and but you know, you've
got to take that on board.
Like people are, you know,people are are trying to help,
but quite oftentimes, you know,that is you know not so helpful.
Yeah.
So, you know, there are otherways you can support, you know,
if you've got a you know, afriend or a partner or you know,
whatever that's that you knowhas a business and you know

(24:39):
you're not experienced in thatarea, you know, there's other
ways you can support thatperson.
And quite often it's just it'sjust listening to them and
letting them know that you knowthey're they're not alone and
you're there for them and youdon't have to offer you know
actual you know practicalsolutions to you know the the
problems that are going on.
You just need to be there.
And yeah, I think that's reallyoverlooked and quite important.

SPEAKER_00 (24:58):
Yeah, I mean, I think since we've since you guys
have been here, we've alwaysbeen like, oh, we need to try
and you know create like thatfounder club or a space for
people to just get together andchat.
But it's so hard becauseeveryone is it's like hurting
cats, like and then hurting thecats' cats.
It's it's the just so hard to beable to bring people together.
But every time you know we dohave things like that or people
do catch each other, it's alwaysso it seems like such a

(25:21):
beneficial thing for people tobe able to just like share space
with one another.
And and to your yeah, I thinkthat was such a really good
point about um uh like a like aproblem shared is like then
split split in half, so tospeak.
It it really does feel like somuch of the time it yeah, it's
not about being in so much ofwhat we do is being in solution
mode at all times.
So it can be nice, yeah, forthat to be turned off and just

(25:44):
the I got I got no idea, man.
I'm not looking for an answer,but it's just like I'm pretty
burnt out.
And then a lot of the time, youknow, from that place of just
being heard, like the solution,you know, the problem is away.
A lot of the time, you know,something might just pop up and
you're like, oh great, likethere, there it is.
Like that when you have thatmoment of just like fuck.

SPEAKER_01 (26:11):
Yeah, I mean, like those those founder interactions
are are just invaluable.
And particularly, you know, whatI've seen over the past 18
months, everyone you know is sofocused on solving those
problems that you know you justbecome very insular.
And you know, people that youwould have you know spoken to
previously or collaborated withpreviously, everyone has just
been focused on their ownbusiness and you know, keeping

(26:34):
going and you know, whether it'ssurviving or sorting out
problems or you know, making youknow really difficult decisions
to I don't know, pivot or endyour business or whatever.
But everyone you know is justfocused on that and you lose
that or you can lose that um youknow interaction with with other
people and other founders andand and other companies through
that.
But that's when you need it themost to be able to, you know,

(26:56):
share those stories, providesupport, you know, receive
support, etc.

SPEAKER_00 (27:01):
Yeah, actually on that note, man, there's been
quite a few high profilestartups um going to admission,
voluntary admission lately.
Like we've had great rap and Iknow natural fiber welding and
other materials company based inthe US.
Um, it has felt like it's been abit of a hectic time for folks.
I like, why are you still here?

(27:24):
Have you no, no, no, seriously,because it it feels like so
many, and I I I think I knowwhere this is gonna go, but I'm
trying not to steer it there andjust see if it comes out in
conversation.
But I'm really curious as to howyou've managed to like maintain,
sustain, keep things going.
Like I've just yeah, becausethere's a lot of folks who've

(27:46):
come in and they like almostlike a supernova, they're like,
Yeah, we're gonna like thousandX, and then they're just like
you know.
What is it that you think hasallowed you guys to persevere?

SPEAKER_01 (27:59):
Yeah, it's a great question.
I mean, obviously, um, yeah, aswe mentioned, I'm pretty
stubborn, so that probablyhelps.
No, it doesn't.
No, you're right.
Look, I I just have a I justhave this um like overwhelming,
all-encompassing belief and thatthis is the way forward and it

(28:20):
it it will be successful.
Um, and it is you know the bestway to you know help animals.
And you know, personally, likeI'm all in and have been all in,
you know, on the business fromfrom from when it started
because I do like genuinelybelieve that this is the the way
to have the biggest impact forfor animals.

(28:41):
Obviously, there's a whole lotof other benefits um in terms of
cultivated meat um when it comesto um you know the environment.
Um we can we can go on and onaround you know human health and
you know all those sorts ofthings, food security, um, food
safety, you know, there's somany, so many benefits um to it.
And so, you know, I I'm all inum on that.

(29:04):
Uh if I was just doing this umfor you know a financial return,
um, it would have madeabsolutely no sense to to keep
going.
Um, you know, I would havethrown it in months, if not
years ago.

SPEAKER_00 (29:19):
Not a fame and fortune endeavor, that's for
sure.

SPEAKER_01 (29:21):
No, and if you know, if as you know, I I was I wasn't
aware of those companies, whathad happened to those companies
you've mentioned.
Um and even within our ourindustry, you know, there's been
companies go go by the wayside.
Um and you know, maybe theirtechnology didn't work or you
know, it it could be for a youknow a myriad of reasons.
Uh obviously not being able toraise funding is a a a massive

(29:42):
one, which is quite often not areflection of you know your idea
or or or innovation um or orbusiness.
Um, but it's just a you know aresult of you know the climate
at the time.
But um, you know, for us, youknow, I just have that.
overwhelming belief in in whatwe're doing, which drives me

(30:05):
forward.
But again, it's you knowreflecting on the people you
know that have supported us aswell, because we've got uh we've
got quite a lot of in investorsnow, but uh, you know, the
majority of those are you knowsmaller investors, angel
investors, um, they're very muchmission aligned.
They believe in in what we'redoing.
And I view that responsibilityof them investing, um, like I

(30:27):
take that very, very, veryseriously in terms of the trust
that they've put in in us and inme in terms of building this
solution, which is going toprovide um, you know, a lot of
uh benefits to um as I'vementioned about a hundred times
now, you know, animals, butalso, you know, for um you know

(30:48):
generations going forward aswell.
And I just take that like very,very, very, very seriously in
that people have, you know,supported us, you know, they've
got skin in the game and theybelieve in in in what we're
doing.
And not just us as Magic Valley,but as you know, cultivated meat

(31:09):
as a solution.
And so I take thatresponsibility seriously, but I
also take the responsibility ofgetting a result for animals
very seriously as well.
And there's a number of peoplewithin particularly the vegan
community that have alsosupported us as well.
And I see what we're doing as apart of that and being part of

(31:31):
that community.
And so I have thisresponsibility to them as well.
And so that pushes me forward asas well.
And so you know as I'vementioned I really do believe in
this solution.
We've got you know we've had alot of headwinds you know
whether it comes to tofundraising or you know the
technology or whatever the casemay be.

(31:54):
Obviously we have you knowregulations and consumer
acceptance and and all thosesorts of things.
But it just keeps me going likethinking about you know who has
um supported us what is the endgoal that that we're working
towards and just this umunwavering belief um I can't
remember who it was that saidthis but they described it as

(32:15):
delusional optimism and and andyou have to be like on the
psionic calling you know one ofthose as well.
Exactly you know you're workingon this innovation that you know
people might not know that theyum need but you're convinced
that you know it's it's it'snecessary and and it's required
and you just have thisdelusional optimism that it that
it's going to be successful.

(32:36):
And I guess um that's what justyou know keeps keeps me going.

SPEAKER_00 (32:40):
I mean there is that right but you've got to be like
financially pragmatic andstrategically I don't know what
the right way of putting thatwould be like you just have to
be able to think well andclearly and like yes you're
delusionally optimistic butyou're not letting that cloud
your capacity for seeing how youcan then make it through this

(33:02):
and then what your runway is.

SPEAKER_02 (33:03):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (33:04):
Like every time we talk about runway or anything
like that, I feel like you knowyou're like this is how much
I've got this is how much I'mgonna need for this little bit
here.
Like it just feels like you'vegot that side of things very
down pat um which seems to be Iguess an area that a lot of
other founders might kind of bea bit more splashing of cash or
or this, that and the otherwhich you tend to see a lot of

(33:26):
the high profile companies umhaving issues it tends to be
around like maybe not managingfunds incredibly well or or to
your point it could just be likea lot of time it is wrong time,
wrong place.
Yeah.
Like now especially for you knowfor biomaterials.
I feel like last year after themassive raises that happened in
the food for the food tech spaceit was like a bit of a doldrums
as you said moment for you guys.

(33:48):
But still having those peoplecome in and investing in what
you're doing and investing inyou guys and believing in it.
But yeah I don't know is likethere anything from that sort of
financial side of things thatyou think like because that's
kind of your your bread andbutter, right?

SPEAKER_01 (34:02):
Yeah.
Yeah I mean it's a a reallyinteresting point and you know
we've seen particularly in ourindustry a lot of money wasted
um you know money going on umyou know the the into the wrong
hands into the you know into thewrong technologies you know
development of the wrongtechnologies um and just a lot
of a lot of waste and I'm surethat happens across industries

(34:24):
right um and particularly whenit comes to you know venture
capital funding.
And obviously I think a lot ofit you know depends on your
background.
I think a lot of it comes fromyour childhood as well like how
you grew up you know you knowwhat what was your relationship
with money you know whatfinancial background do you come
from you know were you was yourfamily wealthy were you were

(34:48):
your parents wealthy wealthy didyou do it hard did you have to
work um and your earlyrelationship with with money but
then you know after that I thinka lot of it comes down to you
know experience and you know asyou mentioned you know my
background you know primarily umyou know I worked in finance I

(35:08):
worked in risk management um Idid that for a number of years
and then I had other businessesprior to to Magic Valley um you
know so I founded two businessesfrom scratch so you're starting
with with nothing which veryquickly um gives you a crash
course um in resourcefulnessyeah yeah in resourcefulness you
know um managing um uh you knowyour your cash flow and and

(35:33):
limited resources but also inyou know learning about sales
and marketing very quickly as aswell um you know because I came
out of which I'm sure a lot ofpeople do you know you come out
of a a fairly um you know senioruh position within in within the
corporate space and you know youthink oh you know I've managed
these teams and you know I'vegot this you know budget and
numbers and yeah you know you'vegot this money that's just given

(35:55):
to you that you know it's yourjob to to spend um and and you
you know you you you do that butthen you know you go into a
business and you're like hey Iknow how to run a business and
yeah I know how to manage thisand do that and then all of a
sudden like you've never donesales and marketing in your life
and it's like well where do youthink the money is going to come
from right it's coming fromacquiring customers and doing
marketing and and doing sales.

(36:18):
So I literally started twobusinesses from scratch.
So you know zero revenue you putyour own money in you've got to
start a business and and findcustomers and so um you know I'd
done that with two businessespreviously um you know so very
aware of you know where you knowmoney should be spent um you
know it's interesting that youmentioned you know the marketing
role before you know my approachto that is probably very

(36:41):
different to as you've mentionedto to other founders where it's
the lifeblood of your of yourbusiness because if you know you
can't be found then you knowyou're not getting customers,
you're not getting investment,like none of that's happening.
So it is very important.
But being able to to managethrough that, you know,
obviously a lot depends on yourrisk tolerance as well.
I'd say mine is higher than theaverage person.

(37:03):
Which is ironic working in risk.
Yep very very much so um but youknow you've got to be able to as
you said you know allocate thoseresources um you've got to be
able to budget um you can't justyou know fritter money away and
we've primarily you know spentour money you know that we've
raised on the technology youknow on the science you know

(37:24):
excluding the the the marketingstuff that we do but other than
that you know I run everythingon the commercial side like
there's just me and there andthere has been for the entire
time.
Man that's so impressive.
All of our money has has goneinto into the tech and the the
technology development uh youknow anything to do with you
know creating the the the actualproduct and that's a conscious

(37:46):
decision um in terms of you knowmilestones we need to hit you
know how do we how do weprogress forward, you know,
raise more capital, etc.
And so I think it really does,you know, it comes down to you
know your your your personalexperience.
You know if you if you'restepping out of um you know like
a corporate role and you knowyou raise all this money and
you've got this pile of moneysitting there and then your

(38:07):
experience is well well we justspent it and we do this and you
don't really have to beaccountable for it.
And that flows over into youknow your startup you're gonna
you're gonna be in a world ofhurt very, very quickly.
And so I think it just dependson your experience.
Yeah but that's that's I guesshow I feel.

SPEAKER_00 (38:22):
Did you were you one of those ones who started
raising money in the littlepiggy bank early what was your
what was your fight like how washow was your upbringing around
money because I know mine wasn'tgreat and this is something that
I'm constantly having to learnhow to like handle this and it's
not their fault.
It was just you know that wasthe time that they grew up and
from their socioeconomicbackground and so I've had to

(38:43):
learn a lot of this myself andI'm not very good at all at it.
But yeah, was it something thatyou picked up on an early age or
something that you learned as aresponse to things in earlier
life where you're like I'm notnot I'm gonna make sure that
does not happen.

SPEAKER_01 (39:00):
Yeah I think I think it's a lot of that to be
perfectly honest where you knowyou grow up through um you know
challenging circumstances at attimes and um you know you
probably um you know see friendsaround you or you know people at
school or that sort of thinghave a very different experience
than than you have.
If you go through some toughtimes, I think a lot of that

(39:21):
fortifies you to be like I'mnever going to be in this
situation again.
And and I guess it develops fromthere.
And then you know you educateyourself and um you know learn
um you know about you knowfinances and money and um you
know wealth management and riskmanagement um you know uh all of
those sorts of things.

(39:43):
And it just you know some peopleare into it and some people
aren't and so some people itwill come naturally to you know
others it won't but um I thinkthere's always the opportunity
to to learn about that.
And look any experience that youhave you know not necessarily
around saving money but um youknow if you had a lemonade stand
or you know what whatever oryou've got to you know work for
your pocket money and and thosesorts of things I think that

(40:05):
teaches you um a lot of lessonsas as well and even then you
know when you begin to you knowstart working and um you know
you you you get paid I don'tknow X amount per fortnight or
per month um you know regardlessof how hard you work and then
you start thinking to yourselfI'm doing all this work I'm
doing all this extra I'm gettingpaid the exact same amount you

(40:28):
know old mate over here does nowork does nothing he's getting
paid the same as me and thatstarts I guess your
entrepreneurial brain thinkingI'm like well hang on if I
worked for myself I could youknow my earning capacity is
unlimited.
Why am I doing all this work forthis employer and I'm just
getting paid the the same amountof money and you know other
people are are benefiting fromit.

SPEAKER_00 (40:47):
Yeah I've had very similar I mean that I've I've
never really aside from like youknow poor lifeguarding or like
working in retail when you'regoing through uni like I've
always ended up working formyself for a for a similar
reason just been like just dothis myself.
Yeah like doesn't make much moresense than that.
But that's just you know apersonality type there's so many
other people that I know who arelike absolutely hell no I would

(41:10):
rather just turn it off you knownine to five that's it and if I
can do what you said before likeget by on seemingly doing enough
and then only and getting paidyou know for the bare minimum
but it looks good enough.
Like they're happy with that.
But yeah, each are their ownright 100%.

SPEAKER_01 (41:26):
Yeah it's definitely a personality thing and not
everyone should start a businessabsolutely I do not recommend
it.

SPEAKER_00 (41:32):
I like I recommend against it unless it's
absolutely necessary right ifit's a if it's a mission calling
or if it's something that thereis a clear challenge that we
need to face and to address youknow whether it's like hey we've
got like 10 years of topsoilsleft in Australia or like food
security is going to be a reallybig problem or like water you
know all of these sort of thingsthat are real genuine challenges
that we're gonna face over thenext 10 to 15, 20 years with the

(41:56):
changing climate and politicalstuff like yeah that yeah if
you're called to that by allmeans like commit to it because
we are going to have to addressthose things.
But if it's something thatyou're kind of like to your
point before like oh this wouldbe pretty cool to do because
like everyone really likes thisspace like maybe I'll do an AI
startup because that's trendy.
Yeah you know or if it's a powergrab, you know, it's probably

(42:18):
people I think people can seethrough it to be perfectly
honest.
And I think that authenticity issuper important.

SPEAKER_01 (42:24):
Yeah and look at I think at the other thing as well
I mean if you're doing somethingjust for the money you're not
gonna stick it out when timesget tough.
I mean I think that's you knowblatantly obvious.
And the other caveat I would sayis you know you might have a
great idea and you might want todo something that's going to
have a huge impact but it mightnot be a great business.
You know the the it thecommercial reality might be that
this isn't a great business.

(42:44):
This invention's great and thisis a great idea.

SPEAKER_00 (42:46):
Oh man we say it all the time so many people come to
us and it's like yeah this issick but is it you know it's the
whole desirable viable feasiblekind of thing it's like yeah
great that's nice but does itdoes it even if we don't like
capitalism you know with all itsflaws it's like does it operate
within that system and if notlike good good luck.
You know exactly um it's anunfortunate reality of having to

(43:09):
work in this space it's like Iwould much rather it was like
co-ops and you know we weredoing local regional economies
and you know all the moneyflowed back into place but you
know that's not where we areright now and and we have to
work with what we've got to tryand bring about those sort of
changes.
Have you actually have youexperimented with any novel
financing facilities or or waysto be to get money into Magic

(43:33):
Valley?
Define novels Sam I don't meanlike a drug cartel or something
like that.
But like um I don't know likehave you looked into Dow's
crypto have you explored um youknow things like Birchal have
you got like like like I'd bevery curious to know yeah or is
it all just kind of like findingthose values line people yeah no

(43:54):
I'd say all of them.
So except the drug cartel justto clarify.

SPEAKER_01 (44:00):
Yeah no not not the drug cartel um nothing illegal.
So yeah look we've explored allof those avenues and it it's
it's really interesting becauseI know a lot of companies you
know have done you know whetherit's crowdfunding um you know
early on uh we looked at um youknow initial coin offerings and
and those sorts of things aswell um you know when it comes

(44:22):
to to the blockchain we alsolooked at you know crowdfunding
really um uh in in intently anduh you know there's a lot of
things that you know look goodfrom you know the outside that
might not be good for yourparticular business you know
there's a lot of um uh you knowcosts involved there's a lot of
marketing obviously againbecause if no one knows about

(44:44):
your offer they can't invest inin in the offer um and when it
comes to crowdfunding you knowwhat we sort of have uh
uncovered is that you knowyou've got to have that crowd
you know you've got to have thecrowd with fund yeah and
typically you know food it foodbusinesses go really well in
that space um but you know forsomeone like us who doesn't have
a product you know we don't havethat crowd you know so we don't

(45:07):
have that group of users thatyou know already use our product
love our product uh and wouldyou know love to in invest in it
and so for us it's always beenoh we just don't know if this is
the right fit for us.
So yeah so we've had a look atthat um we've most of our as I
mentioned most of our investorsare you know mission aligned

(45:28):
they're they're angel investorswe've um got a couple of smaller
VCs on it on our cap table aswell um obviously there's you
know larger VC which you know alot of companies um go down we
received our first governmentgrant earlier this year as well
yeah through the through theindustry growth program um which

(45:48):
has been great um not just uh interms of the funding but you
know the additional programsthat they offer as well has been
like super super beneficial umand it's really the first um
government grant that we'vereally been eligible for isn't
that oh man we we try and tellthem this all the time it's like

(46:09):
yo like we need to address thegrants because they're either
clearly made with a specificcompany or type of person in
mind which don't get me wronglike that tends to be the case a
lot of the time like we've gotgrants that have been made for
us like that has happenedmultiple times.

SPEAKER_00 (46:25):
So I totally understand that.
But yeah it is so strange how wetalk about wanting to support
startups but like it's like ohyeah if you've got five million
revenue already or if you want aone-to-one match this like three
million dollar grant in or like20 FTE and you're like yeah like
none of these things fit thecriteria and almost everyone we
know when applying for grantsare having to apply as an

(46:46):
exemption you know yeah so it isand and this is something that
we again why we've been chattingwith Cellag Australia why we're
talking to the government andlooking at potentially getting
some um additional funding is totry and get enough money for
people to be able to do work atColabs for six to 12 months hire
people like because it's such asmall amount of money compared

(47:06):
to what they might allocate outfor a grant to be able to let
someone validate something oversix months.
And we could be doing that andbe a very entrepreneurial state
but um yeah it's like a lot ofthe time the the largest person
in the room or the loudestperson in the room can sort of
get funding and it might tend togo towards conventional

(47:27):
approaches or or things thatalready have received money or
have are in favor.
So it is a bit of a a black boxtrying to navigate government
funding.

SPEAKER_01 (47:35):
So congrats on making it happen man that's well
I mean it was it's also matchfunding as as well.

SPEAKER_00 (47:40):
There you go the one to one can't escape.

SPEAKER_01 (47:43):
Exactly but um I your point around um you know
not being eligible as a as astartup is 100% spot on because
the definition of startup isn'twhat an actual startup is in
terms of the eligibilitycriteria for all these grants
it's it's scale up.
You know they talk as you saidyou know oh you've got to have
20 FTE or you've got to havethis amount of revenue.
That's not a startup like that'sjust not a startup.

(48:05):
Just to be clear yeah yeah andso you know we just didn't fit
into any of those categoriesmost of the time.
But then also you know in termsof what we're doing which is
really food tech we're justexcluded from so many other
categories you know you don'tfit into a box don't fit into a
box exactly you know you'reexcluded from ag tech you're
excluded from med tech um and sowe just didn't fit anywhere.
And so I look this program hasbeen great.

(48:26):
I know another a number of otherfounders that are you know part
of the program as as well.
And it is super helpful.

SPEAKER_00 (48:33):
But again, you know yes one-to-one matched funding
um and look I understand thatyou know um you know investing
or providing grants to tostartups is risky but you know
you high risk high reward rightwhere else are we going to get
response from like where's theinnovation gonna gonna come from
if if you're not funding umespecially when you're those
startups how much money getsblown up in like pointless

(48:54):
infrastructure projects or justlike other random things where
you're like wow like if we justallocated out like 1% of revenue
to be able to support new andamazing ideas, it would be
amazing to see what couldhappen.
And you know from a systemicinvesting perspective that's
something that we're reallyadvocating for and trying to
push for and we are reallycurious about exploring like can
Coleb set up a venture studio?

(49:16):
Can we try and find ways to fundand support startups early on so
they don't need to take uhriskier forms of capital and
which might no offense like youknow the venture capital pathway
is is is a really valid one butsome companies don't want a
thousand X.
Some companies don't need athousand X.
Some companies just would liketo be 10x or 5X or or just be a

(49:37):
viable business that doesn'teven need that sort of money.
But we kind of you know we'rewe're fed that you know this is
the path to success you know ithas to be like that.
It's the same with like if yougo to uni, well you've got to do
the PhD.
It's like or you could you knowget a job in the industry or do
something else.
But it's like everything hastheir own narrative and their
own self-interests.
And that's there's nothing wrongwith that.

(49:57):
That's fine.
That's that's just what theworld is like but it's
acknowledging that and realizingwell you don't have to just
raise capital the traditionalway or you don't have to just do
this.
And the reality is in this worldwe're gonna have to try and find
different ways to fund andsupport um new ventures.
And yeah I think we're reallywell positioned just selfishly

(50:18):
from this perspective of collabsI think once we build up this
distributed network ofinnovation infrastructure across
Australia, then with very littlefunding we can start pooling
together really talented peopleand start trying to address some
of these challenges in each oftheir sort of bioregional
contexts and and I just thinkthat's a really exciting
prospect.
And you know I I wish we alreadyhad something like this up and

(50:38):
running so that we could be youknow working closely with you on
it.
Because like we absolutely lovewhat you're doing as you know
and would like back it until thecows come home.
For good.

SPEAKER_01 (50:48):
Yeah, yeah that's it.
No you're 100% right though.

SPEAKER_00 (50:52):
I mean the venture capital model doesn't work for
most businesses and mostindustries and it's made for
technical it's not made for deeptech where it's a scientific
breakthroughs and things mighttake 15 years.
Yeah I feel like a lot of thosehigh profile failures come from
folks trying to force somethingbeing what it is not yet.

(51:13):
And I understand why I empathizewhy they're having to do that
because they've got$25 millionfrom people who are like every
day like so like is it done yet?
Yeah where where's my money?
Where's my money?
Like you told me it was going tobe done.
It's like yeah I wrote yourbusiness plan but like it's kind
of like the way that I think itwas kind of like um astrology.

(51:34):
You know it's like you writethis five year business plan.
I mean it's it's not a scienceyou know it's like it's it's an
idea of what it might be likeand you're selling that vision
and the reality is that 95% ofthat's probably pointless.
Like a lot of what we do is verymuch like emergent strategy or
things will just pop up or youhave to kind of address it in
the moment.
And yeah it's good to have thisidea of where you're heading

(51:56):
towards but the reality is likein these sort of spaces you
don't know what the path is.
That's right.
Two years down the track youmight go whole crap you know
what someone's just created abecause I know like one of the
major roadblocks for um and wecan definitely we can go there
because I'd love to talk to youabout what's happening in the
space but one of the majorroadblocks was um medium right
so that's like a big thing likeit's really expensive to get um

(52:20):
media a culture culture mediabecause initially it was all
made for scientists doingresearch and not like bulk bulk
bulk.
And it was also using like fetalbovine serum.
It's not great.
You know now we've got placeslike um the Katie Bishante's
startup I think are doing a analternative I think I'm not sure
if you know yeah yeah um butlike you know and something like

(52:40):
that to be able to bring thecost of that right down we might
make you know this product priceparity with with others.
So there's so many things likethat that just happen and um and
I guess I'd love to know likewhat are some things that have
recently been happening in thespace or adjacent spaces which
are going to have a either alike a like a positive impact
you think on cultivated meat asa sector?

SPEAKER_01 (53:02):
Yeah it's a it's a great question.
I want to circle back to thegrant funding in a minute as do
it as well.

SPEAKER_00 (53:07):
But we can we can we can loop back there.

SPEAKER_01 (53:10):
Yeah yeah look I there's there is a lot going on
in in the space.
Unfortunately we've seen a fewcompanies you know go by the
wayside but as I said you knowperhaps that technology was you
know not right for the the theapplication that it was was
intended.
But yeah I mean cell culturemedia you know is a huge one
it's the it's the largest inputcost in terms of you know us

(53:30):
developing um a product umbringing the cost down um for
the components in the in thecell culture media um is a real
driver and there's a number ofcompanies working on on that um
as you mentioned one of thereally interesting things though
that's happened is that you knowa lot of um you know you know a
lot of stuff we purchasedparticularly in in the early

(53:50):
stages um was farma frompharmaceutical companies and so
developed for you knowtherapeutics and and that sort
of thing um from these reallylarge companies um that you know
were not selling a lot of themand were charging you know
really high prices.
You know, whereas you know whatwe're doing, you know, typically
we need um you know a lot more.
So you know we need largerquantities of of media, we need

(54:13):
larger quantities of thecomponents within the media,
larger quantities of bioreactorsfor example, consumables for
example and so which is kind ofthe opposite in terms of the the
the model we need you know umhigher volume and at a lower
cost.
And so for us you know andparticularly for a lot of those
companies in our industry thatraised a lot of money you know

(54:35):
early on and really didn't haveany other choice but to purchase
you know for example bioreactorsor medium of their own yeah that
exactly that's that's thealternative.
But you know we're f forced topay these really high um prices
for you know equipment so theircapital expenditure is huge.
And you know spent all of thatmoney on on these facilities

(54:56):
that you know potentially arenot um currently operational but
that you know they really didn'thave a have a choice.
So that money's been spent wellwhat's happened you know there's
been smaller um providers or ordirect manufacturers that have
seen the opportunity you know inthe cultivated meat space um you
know where they produce ormanufacture let's say just use
bioreactors as an example youknow they manufacture the

(55:19):
bioreactors that go to thepharma companies that you know
stick a label on them and theysold at high prices.
Well these because the pharmacompanies didn't want to you
know did not didn't want to dealwith this but couldn't get their
head around you know what whatwe were doing and opportunity.
Yeah it exactly it's you knowit's a different model.
They've got different salestargets and you know um you know

(55:39):
ability to you know negotiate onprice and you know the pricing
model and all that sort ofthing.
Well you know a lot of thesemanufacturers have well they've
seen the opportunity they'relike oh hang on they've all
these people want to you knowbuy this media or or buy these
bioreactors but you know itdoesn't need to be at you know
pharmaceutical grade they'relooking for food grade um and
they can produce them you knowen masse at a tenth of the price

(56:03):
if not lower than than whateveryone was paying previously
um and so they're they're allnow selling direct to the direct
to the customer being us youknow in terms of media in terms
of bioreactors in terms ofconsumables and so you know this
this perception that still youknow pervades today of you know
oh you know it's you've got thismassive capital expenditure and

(56:25):
it's really expensive and ourmedia is really it just it's
just not true.

SPEAKER_00 (56:29):
It's just not true at all.
Just repeating what they heardyou know three to four to five
years ago exactly like anyoneknows in tech and what's
fascinating about biotech inparticular is like when you look
at Moore's law like that was forsemiconductors when you look at
it for biology it's actuallylike even more like is it
superlinear or superlinear?
I can't remember the word you'rethe math guy.

(56:50):
I'm just gonna say pronouncedit's even more pronounced for
100%.
So I I'm curious like and wedon't have to use actual numbers
maybe we can just use ratios orsomething like that.
But I'd be curious to know whatthe initial cost of doing things
were versus like where you're atnow and whether or not that's
like a 5, 10 X difference orwhether it's even more like I'm

(57:12):
really curious like becausethat's something that yeah I you
don't we don't hear aboutbecause usually it's like oh
it's you hear about the negativethings but I'd be curious to see
yeah is it where are you at withthat yeah well I mean the two
biggest costs I mean if you talkabout capital expenditure it's
it's bioreactors so what thewhat the cells go in.

SPEAKER_01 (57:29):
Um you know uh a a reactor that uh would have cost
and still does cost from apharmaceutical company you know
two and a half million dollarswe can buy for$200,000.
So it it's it it's not evenclose.

SPEAKER_00 (57:42):
And then I just don't understand I don't
understand that.
I don't understand that.
I don't know how it can be sucha discrepancy.

SPEAKER_01 (57:49):
Because that that price is not the price of what
it costs to to make that's justthe price it could be sold at
right price maximization.

SPEAKER_00 (57:57):
Yeah but this is the issue as well and and this again
like bringing it back to I guessthe the need for a systemic
approach and systems innovationand the that there are perverse
incentives it's like so many ofthose people are either selling
to pharma who are makingbajillions of dollars like
that's a literal um that's areal quantity um or academia who
if they don't spend their moneythen you know oh well it's not

(58:20):
great and for them a lot of timeit's like the more money you
spend the better it sounds webought this 2.5 million dollar
bioreactor how amazing is thatyou know um whereas yeah in the
in in industry facing side ofthings it's like how like how am
I supposed to do that?
I can't do that.
Like that's suicide buying thatsort of bioreactor.
Yeah.
Have you seen any just before Iknow you I know you want to loop
back to the grant funding.

(58:41):
Yeah.
Yeah but before we loop backthere I just wanted to know like
have you seen any innovations inlike so we're talking about
purchasing items has anyonestarted doing product as a
service system models forbioreactors?
Like kind of like how Colabs ishey come and you know get a
membership and use the space isthere anyone who's doing hey
come and get a membership anduse our bioreactors or is it

(59:02):
still like I mean I know we'retalking to people trying to push
to make something like thathappen so that we can have a
space for people to experimentwith bioreactors.

SPEAKER_01 (59:11):
And I I think we're doing all right with a couple of
folks I won't name anything butum yeah is seeing anything like
that similar but but not exactlyso obviously um you know when it
comes back to the conversationaround managing money you know
we've had a lot of trialbioreactors you know where a
company will give you uh areactor to to trial you know see

(59:32):
how you see how you go with itobviously they want to
eventually you know sell it toyou and you'll you know use it
on ongoing um so we've had thatexperience with a with a number
of companies um which is whichis great which it's the way it
should be like you need to beable to use something before you
decide to to buy it particularlywhen it's you know a large um
value um purchase um there arein terms of bioreactors you know

(59:59):
there are Uh uh a couple uh atleast now companies that are
looking at subscription typemodels.
Interesting.
Yeah.
So, you know, again, you know,Is that media as well uh or just
the reactors so far that I'vecome across in terms of, you
know, here's this um reactor youpay, you know, I'll just make up

(01:00:22):
this number, um, you know,$1,000a month, you know, subscription
fee to use the reactor.
Um, you know, and there might belike the uh you know the
opportunity to you know purchaseat the end of the term or
something.

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:34):
Like a Chatel mortgage.

SPEAKER_01 (01:00:35):
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, as a as opposed to, youknow, oh it's gonna cost you
know$200,000 up front.
You can and you know, it's it'slike a l exactly like a lease
agreement type thing.
Um so we've seen that startingto, but that's not coming from
the pharma companies.
That's coming from you knowsmaller startups who are like,
oh, this would be a better modelfor you know what what you need.

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:54):
Yeah, it is really interesting how like, yeah, uh,
I can't remember who said it.
It's like um, but sometimes, atleast in in in science, it's
like worldviews shift like onedeath at a time.
And it also feels like a a lotof times like if a company only
knows one way and that's howthey've been successful their
whole life, you almost can'treally blame them for being that
way.
And it's kind of like you don'texpect them to be that way, it's

(01:01:16):
just like in a bucky fuller way,it's like just wait for someone
who's gonna design a new systemthat makes that one obsolete, or
who has designed it to fit yourecological niche rather than
trying to panda to folks who arekind of like you know, not even
like just over the head, butlike out of the stratosphere
over the head.
Um so okay, that's cool.
I'm glad that that's starting tois there anything else before we

(01:01:38):
loop back to grant funding?
Because I know you want to gothere.
Is there anything else likethings happening in the space
that you think are prettyexciting?
I mean, obviously for Zans, um,you know, we had the approval
with Vow's products.
Yeah.
Um, have you heard anything fromyour end?

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:53):
Uh no, not particularly.
We had uh for sans out here afew weeks ago and uh they did a
taste you weren't around becauseyou don't come in here anymore.
But um don't don't bring thatup.
We did a tasting for them, whichwent went really well.
Um uh no no no feedback I cangive on on in terms of Magic

(01:02:14):
Valley, but in terms of forsans, um, you know, they're
adding resources uh to adedicated uh cellular
agriculture pathway within thenovel food framework, which is
bringing um the timeline down uhand the cost down, both by about
half to what it was previously.
So that's that's great for theentire industry to fast-track

(01:02:35):
those applications and for it tobe cheaper as well.
I mean, free would be great, butcheaper is better than um what
it was before.
Um so like they're super open.
And I guess there's a there'sthis misconception, particularly
in Australia, around, you know,how difficult uh and political
it is in terms of getting acultivated meat product
regulated.

(01:02:56):
I mean, the regulator's rolereally is to assess the safety
of the of the product, you know,toxicology, microbiology, is
this safe to consume?
You know, what are theallergens?
What are the risks, etc.?
It's not for sans's role is notto be um, you know, political or
or you know uh to to push downone industry.
It's to assess the safety of ofthe product for for human

(01:03:18):
consumption.
And so for sans have been greatto deal with the the entire time
that um uh I've been working onon Magic Valley.
And um that that continues to bethe case.
They're very consultative, youknow, they want to see more
novel food applications, morecellular agriculture products
get approved.
And basically, you know, theymake a recommendation that goes

(01:03:39):
to the food minister, and thenyou know, the food minister
makes a decision on um you knowthe recommendation from Fasan.
So that's actually how it works.
And so um, yeah, they've they'vebeen they've been great to deal
with.
So there's as you said, there'ssome movement in that space uh
at the moment, um, which isyeah, really positive.

SPEAKER_00 (01:03:55):
Nice.
Now, do you want to loop back tothe grant funding?

SPEAKER_01 (01:03:58):
I will the other thing I'll mention before we
loop back to that was around ummedia media costs, which you
know, as you mentioned before,you know, we would have paid um,
you know, maybe you paid, youknow, a few years ago, you pay
off the shelf, you know, sixhundred dollars a litre for cell
culture media.

SPEAKER_00 (01:04:13):
I remember back in the day, you were like, that's
probably like a ten thousanddollar dumpling.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:04:19):
Exactly exactly, you know.
Um, you know, but for us, um,you know, today, you know, you'd
be looking at six or sevendollars a litre with, you know,
still plans to bring that downto a dollar a litre, you know,
at scale.
And so And that was your number.

SPEAKER_00 (01:04:33):
So just like just I don't think it's if you can say
it so casually, but that's asix, how many thousand percent
reduction?
What?
You said it was six or sevenhundred dollars for a liter down
to six dollars, and thenhopefully down to one.
Yeah.
Like that's if they manage to dothat, that's like a six thousand
percent reduction in four orfive years.

(01:04:54):
Yeah, and we're not even likeworking hard on it.

SPEAKER_01 (01:04:56):
No, it's just it's just you know what you had to
pay early on, you know, you dosome you do some um media
optimization.
But then there's other, as Isaid, there's other companies
that are producing the um thecomponents of the media at just
far cheaper prices.
And so um that's literally withus hardly doing any any work on

(01:05:16):
on the media side of things.
And so, you know, again, whenpeople go, oh, media is really
expensive and bioactors arereally they're not.
Like they're just not.
Anyway, um back to the the grantfunding side of thing, I wanted
to mention as well, we um uh youmight have heard of an
organization by the name ofVoiceless, and they make um you
know basically charitable youknow donations to organizations,

(01:05:38):
but we actually received um thefirst uh investment grant from
from Voiceless as well.
Who are in the animal protectionspace.
Yeah, so we're really um youknow rapt to to receive that and
receive their support.
But then going um the otherthing I really wanted to
mention, you know, around youknow alternative funding options
um is we we utilize the uhresearch and development tax

(01:06:02):
incentive really heavily aswell.
And you know, a lot of peoplecomplain about you know
government funding and that sortof thing.
But in Australia, like that's ahuge benefit to us and most
other companies.

SPEAKER_00 (01:06:12):
Do you hear about, I don't know, uh apparently at
bio, Andrew is at bio,apparently there was talk about
people being like, oh, we're alittle bit over budget with the
RD tax incentive.
Oh, not sure if we're gonna.
I mean, if they if they scrapthat, like there's entire so
many companies that's likeessential.
You rely on it 100%.
Especially when there's not thatmuch else out there.

(01:06:33):
Um and it just feels like thethe number one amazing thing
that was really thoughtful, youknow, and I can't believe, I
mean, just I don't reckon theywould but like, damn, like let's
fingers and toes crossed.
Um I reckon it'll I reckon it'llstay in.
Um it's such a useful I I Ibelieve so.

SPEAKER_01 (01:06:53):
I mean, I was involved in a workshop around it
um many months ago now, and andthe the people that um some of
the complaints around it werefrom much larger companies.
So, you know, like thesemultinational companies that
have got you know millions, ifnot billions, in revenue and
they don't like how the programworks for this tiny bit of like
RD that they actually do.

(01:07:14):
Whereas to companies like us whoare basically all RD at this
stage, um, it's crucial forbeing able to operate.
And if we talk about even morealternative sources of of
funding, you know, I most peopleprobably don't know about this
that you know aren't in thespace, but there are companies
that will um provide finance toyou based on your future RD

(01:07:36):
return.
And so again, that's another wayof um uh you know leveraging
your your future return for youknow cash flow purposes as well.
You can get that money in todaythat you were gonna get in your
return, you know, August orwhenever you file your tax
return, you know, you can getthat today.
Let's say it's whatever it isnow, October still.

SPEAKER_00 (01:07:56):
Yeah, October.
Five percent interest or I don'tknow what the interest.

SPEAKER_01 (01:07:59):
I mean the interest is not great.
Like, don't get me wrong.
Like you don't like you don'twant to be paying that interest,
but that brings that forward.
So you've got that cash today,liquidity.
You'll spend more on your RD, soyou'll get an even bigger return
when it comes to the to therebate.
I didn't think of the doubleloop.
That's exactly how it works.
And so, you know, we've donethat a couple of times as as

(01:08:20):
well.
But um, yeah, the the there'sthese things that you know
outside um you wouldn't thinkabout.
Like it is an alternative, youknow, funding source and and and
way to bring to bring your cashflow uh to the present day.

SPEAKER_00 (01:08:32):
Man, I'm yeah, I'm just so impressed with like your
ability to navigate that spaceand figure out ways to make it
work.
I think um I it's it really isadmira admirable.
It's kind of like the only waythat I can think of putting it
because you've really like Iknow for a fact that you have
you you've searched the entirelandscape, you know, you're
you're foraging for finances andfiguring out ways in which you

(01:08:54):
can make it work.
And yeah, I feel like I don'tknow if any startups or people
are curious about it all.
I feel like you're such a goodperson to be able to tap on the
shoulder and talk through thatentire process.

SPEAKER_01 (01:09:06):
Yeah, I think I've uh yeah, I think I've explored
almost all of the options.
I'm sure there's some out therethat I you know we can still uh
utilize.
But yeah, I mean, but I I mean Ialso come from a finance
background as well.
So, you know, I think I've got abit of an unfair advantage
there.

SPEAKER_00 (01:09:20):
Yeah, fair enough.
No, makes sense.
But as I said, like I think itit is an unfair advantage, and I
do I feel like, yeah, sure, likethe mission is really important,
but I do feel like that's such abig, big area that's meant that
you've been able to like kind ofaikido your way through what's
been like a really hectic sortof year and a half innovation.

(01:09:41):
Um yeah, man, what else?
Is there anything anything elseworth having to yarn about while
we've well managed to pin youdown?

SPEAKER_01 (01:09:49):
Um we can talk about how great Colabs is and all the
things that are going on here.

SPEAKER_00 (01:09:53):
This is not a marketing pitch for collabs, but
is there anything that you'vefound really interesting or any
cool like any new members thatyou're like, hey, that's pretty
cool, or anything.

SPEAKER_01 (01:10:03):
Um yeah, well, I mean, as you mentioned, you
know, obviously, you know,particularly for us, you know,
we've got Salag Australia here,which is is really great to have
them, you know, close by.
Um, Pythag Tech is as well, whowe're got a collaboration with
in terms of you know machinelearning and AI and um you know
all the stuff that we're doing.
Um I think a few of us have umuh you know shared some some

(01:10:26):
resources as as well uh betweenall of us.
But you know, we even you knowwe're very close to to Cortical
as well, and we're not doinganything remotely similar, but
using similar cell types, andthere's a lot of knowledge
sharing and and stuff that goeson too.
I mean, there's heaps of othercompanies that um we do talk to
as well.
Um but just as you said, thislike this ecosystem and having

(01:10:48):
the environment to talk topeople, whether it's over lunch,
you know, whether it's in the inthe kitchen or you know, you're
out getting coffee or you know,without having this here, you're
just siloed and there's just noopportunity for that um to
occur.
Um, not to mention all the helpthat that you give us as as well
in terms of providing thefacility to begin with, but just
um, you know, in terms of um thethe the moral support as well.

(01:11:13):
Um yeah, I'm I'm forevergrateful for.
Um but then also watching likeyour journey as well at Colabs
in terms of like the multiplesites and like I know how hard
that is from you know previousvisits I've had.
It's a nightmare, it's anabsolute nightmare.
So um that's been superimpressive and uh and inspiring

(01:11:33):
to to watch as well in terms ofum you know the growth of um you
know collabs, you know, yourselfand and Andrew, um, and and also
what's on the the horizon as aswell.

SPEAKER_00 (01:11:45):
Yeah, I mean that was the first time I realized
that um quantum physics does notapply to the level of reality
which we exist, um, despite whatother people might tell you.
You definitely can't be in twoplaces at one time.
Yeah.
I've tried.
Um yeah, so it is it has beenreally hectic and it's it's been
very financially taxing havingtwo sites up and running.

(01:12:06):
I mean, just for like scalessake, like this site is I don't
know, like 850 square acrossthree warehouses in Brunswick,
whereas down there that's likeclose to like 3,200 square of
space.
So it's like you know, order ofmagnitude larger.
Um, and obviously that comeswith an order of magnitude
larger outcomings per month.

(01:12:27):
So it's been really painful, butwe've been, you know, people are
coming through now more and moreand more.
There's only like a hundredsquare of space left in the um
upstairs area and plenty of roomin the in the co-working lab,
but it's just nice to feel itcome to life and it feels more
like Brunswick.
When I was down there the otherday, I'm like, oh wow, it really
feels like I was in Brunswick,and everyone in the team knows
that means that you never reallyget anything you thought you

(01:12:49):
were gonna get done in the daybecause you're getting dragged
out helping other people withall these other things.
I feel like we're we'reconstantly in a loop of like,
oh, can you help with this?
And like, oh, this uh deliveryof this packages has come, but
you know, amidst that chaos isthe the magic or the jazz of
being a part of innovation as ithappens, and it yeah, it's a
it's a really nice thing.
Um, but it yeah, it does it didfeel like for the first six

(01:13:11):
months, I was kind of downthere.
I'm like, oh, this is great.
I'm isolated, I can just likefocus on work, you know.
Um, whereas it feels like nowit's really stepping up.
Um yeah.
Sweet.
Is there anything else?
I'm trying to think if there'sanything else that we that's
worth having a chat about.

SPEAKER_01 (01:13:27):
I mean, we're still just working on a number of uh
different products at themoment.
We've got some um uh some reallystrong collaborations that that
that we're working on.
And yeah, just just pushingforward.
We um we have a lot of uhfriends in the alternative
protein space that are beenworking on some some really
great things as as well.

(01:13:47):
So, you know, hopefully, youknow, across the the entire
sector, you know, we can seesome um positive.
I mean, I can't believe it'sOctober or I really don't know
where this year's gone.
So I was about to say, hopefullywe can see some things this
year.
It's not gonna be this year,it's gonna be next year now.

SPEAKER_00 (01:14:01):
Things are gonna wrap up over the next little
bit, but it's it's nice thatthings are wrapping up and
you're still here, stillpersevering, still making stuff
happen, still serving updelicious dumplings.
Hey, you've um there's multiplecell lines you're working on now
as well.
Because I feel like it was justpork, but now there's also beef.
No?
No.
What was it?

SPEAKER_01 (01:14:20):
I don't know.
No, we've got lamb.
Lamb.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:14:23):
We've got lamb.
Yes.
I need so there is two celllines.

SPEAKER_01 (01:14:26):
Yeah, yeah, we've definitely got two uh up and
going.
Uh, but we are working on somesome others.
Um yeah, we're hopefully likethis time next year we'll we'll
have we'll have multiple otherspecies slash products that
we've developed.
So yeah, always in the same,always in the same technology
platform.
But um, yeah, beef could be oneof them.

(01:14:51):
You like Nostradamus over there.

SPEAKER_00 (01:14:53):
Yeah, what a what a what a what a public reveal.
Um sweet man.
Well, thanks so much for lettingme bail you up for a chat again.
It's always a pleasure, and it'sum yeah, it's been so lovely
watching you do everything thatyou do and building out the team
and being a part of thecommunity.
So for that, thank you.
Um and yeah, let's let's hopethat the next Christmas party we

(01:15:14):
can have some MV stuff out andabout.
Fingers crossed.
Yeah, it's good to see you.
About time you uh come down toBrunswick.
I know, I'm sorry.
I'm sorry.
All right.
Well, um, sick.
I think that should do us.
Cool.
Thanks.
Maybe thanks so much for tuningin again to another episode of
The Strange Attractor.
Uh, we hope you enjoyed thisconversation.

(01:15:36):
Um and yeah, if there's anythingyou would like us to cover,
anyone who'd like us to get on,drop us a line, let us know.
Uh for 2026, my god, I can'tbelieve I'm saying that out
loud, we will be expanding ourhorizons for the podcast and
looking to integrate some folksfrom around the world, uh, maybe
a couple of virtual podcasts andthat sort of stuff, to tap into

(01:15:59):
the wider network of folks whoare interested in uh bio-led
futures, uh regenerativedevelopment and design, uh new
forms of governance andinnovation to support
bioregional development, uh moreholistic forms of education, all
these sorts of fun things to tryand yeah, I guess bring a bit of

(01:16:22):
awareness to it and see how thatcan be applied into an
Australian context.
Uh, so if that's somethingyou're interested in, stay
tuned.
Thanks so much, guys, and hopeyou have a lovely rest of the
day, night, morning, whatever itis, wherever you are around the
world.
Thank you.

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