May 5, 2025 • 35 mins
Building from our last episode on keeping up with new dancehall I invited listener and filmmaker Mikey T to join us in a continued conversation where he shares from his perspective on the transformation of dancehall as a genre.
We discuss:
- The "money pull-up" phenomenon has DJs prioritizing the preferences of big spenders rather than introducing audiences to fresh sounds
- How changing media consumption has affected lyrical complexity. In an era of shortening attention spans and algorithm-driven content, the intricate wordplay that once defined dancehall legends like Bounty Killer and Vybz Kartel feels increasingly rare.
- Modern tracks often lack the storytelling richness that connected deeply with listeners, replaced by repetitive themes that perform well on short-form platforms.
We're degrading the changes, but exploring how technology, economics, and cultural shifts have reshaped Caribbean music, while speculating on fascinating possibilities for the future. Could we see a return to gatekeeping as a positive force? Might artists start withholding music from streaming platforms entirely, making live performances the exclusive way to experience new material?
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Style and Vibes podcast.
With me, Makayla, I'll begiving you the inside scoop on
music, fashion, culture and morefrom Caribbean celebrities and
tastemakers across the globe,pushing our culture with
authenticity and, of course,style and vibes.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of
the Style and Vibes podcast withyours truly, Mikaela.
If you are new here, welcome tothe family.
If you are coming back, welcomefamily.
And I am joined by the extendedfamily, carrie Ann Reed-Brown.
You guys know her as theexecutive producer for Style and
Vibes and she was just on ourlast episode.
(00:43):
So this is kind of like acontinuation of that, because we
had so much to talk about withmusic discovery, especially
keeping up with the new music,and we were kind of discussing
it from our perspective andwanted to bring in our good,
good friend Mikey T Wagwan.
Mikey T.
So Mikey T has been on thepodcast before he joined us in
(01:06):
the commentary on the One Lovemovie.
He is a filmmaker himself.
We've had reviewed hisdocumentary A Jamaica Story on
Reels and Rhythms.
Quick plug for that podcast,that with me.
I'm Kerri-Ann Reed Brown.
If you have not alreadysubscribed, make sure you guys
go subscribe to that and checkout Jamaica's story.
(01:27):
But welcome Mikey T to theStylin' Vibes family.
Speaker 3 (01:32):
Thank you.
Thank you so much.
Thank you, ladies, for havingme Music.
I love it.
I love it.
It's interesting.
Yes, yes.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
So you had almost like a preview of that episode
that we recorded and I know thatyou and Kerry, you have to give
us the insight because we didnot talk in the community, but
we know you have a little moreinsight to the conversation.
So, kerry, kerry, all right, soquick back story.
Speaker 4 (02:00):
So I asked the community how they felt about
you know, like when they reach acertain age, like what aspects
of the culture that they areevolving, away from not totally
giving up.
And I did a poll and then whenI posted the results of the poll
(02:24):
, that most people were kind of,you know, moving away from
music, mikey T replied and saidwe have a whole world of comment
about people who have issuewith music and the music is
slack.
And I said you know what,you're not going to get the
argument from me there, becausethe argument that the music now
of today is too slack doesn't,it just doesn't live.
You know we can rebut thatargument in so many ways from
1980 to now.
So, but I said it was a littlebit more nuanced than that and
(02:47):
you know, I know Mikey T has alot to say about that.
So that's really the cliffnotes of that conversation.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
So in your perspective, Mikey, from the
commentary around the surveyitself to listening to our
podcast and the conversation,Tell me about your thoughts on
today's music coming out ofdance hall and kind of your
understanding in terms ofdiscovery and what do you think
(03:16):
as a consumer and a lover of theculture.
What is happening there?
Speaker 3 (03:21):
Okay, yeah, that's a tall order, but I have my notes
here, but I think dance hallmusic, for the most part, is
exactly where it needs to be,and I think a lot of people
forget the anthropologic part ofmusic, where a lot of people
are telling their stories andtelling their realities.
I think what tends to happen,though, is when the growth of
(03:48):
music going from okay, this iswhere I came from.
Now I'm going through thistransition what does that music
look like?
Staring away from the struggle,staring away from the one shirt
and the one shoes and mommyhungry and stuff like that.
How do we grow the music towhere we feel just as good,
(04:10):
listening to the positive sideof music, and I think that's
where Dancehall is missing whatreggae has captured.
Yes, we understand you have comefrom the struggle, but at some
point, brother, when I see youat 10 different parties with
$5,000 coins in your pocket, youcan't keep telling me, say
(04:32):
you're struggling and you can'tbe chopping that much money and
Mocha hasn't picked you up yetis a disconnect into where.
Telling a story of my realityto then glorifying a situation,
that is wrongdoing.
I get it.
(04:53):
You may have come from X, y, z,and we need to have that
conversation and that's why Isaid like, even when it comes to
scamming, songs which a lot ofpeople aren't OK with, I always
ask to take.
And when my friends send memusic, I'm like, are you
speaking of something that yougrew up seeing or are you trying
to glorify and trying to makesome quick sales?
(05:15):
Because one of the things thattend to happen and you guys
spoke about, like the discoveryof music, when you went to the
party and the DJ would play somenew music and test out the
crowd and you say, oh, what songis this?
And conversation starts tobubble about music.
But one of the things that tendto be happening I'm not sure if
it's here in the diaspora asmuch, but heavy in Jamaica DJs
(05:39):
are going to certain parties andthey don't care whether they
get paid or not, because theyare playing for the money
pull-up.
And the money pull-up isn'tgoing to come from the new
artist being played.
The money pull-up is going tocome from the chopper song.
Because when you play thechopper song, a chopper is going
to come and he's going to put afive thousand, he's going to
(06:00):
put a ten thousand dollar onyour council and then, when that
chopper put ten thousanddollars on your council and then
when that chap will put $10,000on your council, hear the DJ
why.
Man just come drop $10,000.
Next one has to reach, and youdon't know what money is
reaching there.
And then you hear it why UStouching the council $100 US for
money, pull up.
So now nobody is thinking tocome to the council unless they
(06:22):
have a hundred US or more.
And they're creating thisenvironment where they're trying
to just make their money.
They're not trying to spreadthe love of music, they're
trying to get paid in a way thatthey feel is substantial to
them.
So I think that's where life is.
We're running down the moneybecause we want to live the
(06:43):
lifestyle and we're forgettingthe part of it is the art and
the music.
Speaker 4 (06:47):
You said something there that I think Mikaela and I
we've talked about whatdancehall is missing and we
can't say hip hop is missing.
Some of that too.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
Right I was about to say it's not just dancehall, Our
genre right, it's across theboard.
I even watched a TikTok todaythat was asking about where is
the happy Afro beats music?
Yes, yes, yes.
So it's a trend across.
Black music that is popular.
And Mikey T, go ahead, Carrie.
(07:19):
I want to come back to thatpoint.
But, Carrie, go ahead.
Speaker 4 (07:23):
No, it's to that point right.
Remember, in hip hop you hadthe Fresh Prince and Jazzy Jeff
character In dancehall.
You had the Snaggapos, you hadthe Professor Nuts.
You know you had those who werecomedians but were, you know,
creating music, and you don'thave that anymore.
You had like, okay if youwanted to hear a song.
(07:43):
You don't have that anymore.
You had like, okay if youwanted to hear a song, right,
you know you had your snaggleposter, if you want.
You know you have your pie pie,you have your gun tune, you
have your girl tune, you haveall these other things.
And you know that diversity youknow we feel like is no longer
there and that diversity cametogether through what Rhythms?
Right, so on one rhythm you gohave a tati and then you go have
(08:08):
, you know Gwango, beria did,and you know Agodon, and we kind
of miss those criticalingredients and that's kind of
one of the reasons why peopleare nostalgic and they're like
music no good.
And I'm not saying good music,non-gopliya either.
We've already established that.
But you're right, like thedifferent types of music, the
(08:29):
happy, the fun aspects of music.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
And even the differentiation between the
artists on one rhythm.
Right, because if you have 10schema artists on one rhythm,
they all sound the same.
10 schema artists on one rhythm, they all sound the same the
(08:54):
contents, the lyrical flow, thecontent of what they're saying,
and just the melodic.
So there is no need for arhythm if they all sound the
same.
There's nothing distinct abouteach artist on a rhythm where
they all sound the same, wherethey all sound the same.
And I think that's why whenRussian resurged his rhythm and
there was a variety of people,almost like a competition,
trying to be on the rhythm, itwas because, one, it was
(09:15):
nostalgic.
Two, every artist was giving acompletely different energy.
So to your point, carrie, Ithink the idea of rhythms from a
popularity standpoint can stillexist, but as a producer, you
need to voice variety.
But, mikey T, you brought up areally good point about money
(09:37):
pull-up.
I mean, it's not like moneypull, but there was also, there
was still variety in thatpull-up.
And the other idea behind moneypull-up is because it's not
necessarily that that song isgood, it's just what the person
with the most money wants tohear mm-hmm Right, that is the
(10:02):
essence of it and that is theessence of it Right, and
sometimes it's good andsometimes it's not so you know,
majority of the time the personwith the most money.
Speaker 3 (10:11):
Especially when you go into the local parties and
the local scene, the person withthe most money tends to be the
person who is who is the chopper.
Was the chopper?
Yeah, and what you?
What you said in the um otherepisode, that was very
interesting and I never paidattention to, but I do
understand.
It is the vast amounts of musicthat is coming out.
(10:34):
The little equipment like thislaptop that I have on my desk
and I can buy a 200 plug-in anda 200 microphone and I can
record music, I can put outmusic.
Chronic law puts out a songalmost every day, you know, and
and not only a song, but he'sconstantly putting out songs and
(10:55):
he's constantly putting outmusic videos because there isn't
that gatekeeping.
So even if a producer holds andcherishes his rhythm like they
used to, the dancer, always belike yo bro, let me just go find
YouTube and download one tuneand when you know if it busts,
it busts, and that's whathappens to a lot of them.
And then, when you guys wereeven talking about the clean
(11:17):
music and Vibes Cartel beingthat kind of last era where
people used to do the radioedits.
I think, like you guys said,because there's so much new
music coming out and becausepeople want to constantly hear
new music, am I going to spendtime actually writing and
redoing my song to make a cleanversion to go on the radio that
(11:37):
nobody listens to?
Or am I just going to editwhatever so that the kids can
look it up on YouTube and playthat version of the song?
As long as it's not saying thebad words, the parents are fine
and that's what they end updoing.
And I guess we're running intothis era where there's too much
access, where you kind of sortof do need a little bit of a
(11:59):
gatekeeper.
Because I just seen I don'teven know the young kid's name,
but there's this young kid thatwas all over social media, came
out with some song, didsomething, and I saw him post
another new song and I'm justlike I have no idea what this
child is talking about.
You can tell he's trying toregurgitate the music that he's
heard and you know it's sad.
(12:23):
It's sad when there isn't aworld for everybody to be able
to write a song.
If Granny wake up one day,granny should be able to get on
a dance hall beat and be able tosing whatever she wants to sing
, because there should be thatessence of storytelling and joy
and fun that comes from ourmusic.
And when I say dance hall andstuff like that, I apologize.
(12:45):
I don't mean only dance hall isdoing this, but it is the genre
that I delve in the mostBecause, like you guys said, all
Black or African diaspora andAfrican music coming from us
tend to drift into this worldwhere it's like yo, if you ain't
talking about the ghetto, ifyou're not talking about
(13:05):
struggles, or you're not talkingabout this, you're not talking
about real music.
And it's like I want to be happytoo sometimes, like I have
people that go to carnival allover.
People don't want to go to theKingston carnival as much
because it's like they don'twant to hear a dance hall song
talking about poverty, talkingabout scamming and talking about
(13:26):
guns.
They go to carnival to dance,have a good time and listen to
songs about just straightpartying and we're kind of
losing that fun aspect.
Speaker 4 (13:38):
I just wanted to sing Monday, tuesday, wednesday.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
I mean, like you know energy, know energy vibe, like
that's what I want here and I Ithink that that's that's also a
key theme is variety, because Iliken a lot of the skama chapel
music to the gunman tune that wegrew up with.
You know, know what I mean.
And the slackness.
(14:03):
The slackness has always beenthere, right, it's just in your
face.
It's very raw.
So I totally understand.
But where the opportunity ismissed is the variety because,
like Governor is an artist thathas tried to bring storytelling,
idonia is another one,conscience is another one.
(14:24):
Like they constantly do avariety of galchun, funchun,
patachun, chun for the Monday,like they do the variety, but it
doesn't get the same responseas like a skeng or a chronic law
.
And like, for me, chronic law,like I think he's lyrically
talented but it's just too darkfor where I am in my life at
(14:48):
this point and I think a lot ofthe music is just, not only is
the rhythm, the rhythms are verydark and very heavy, but then
you couple that with the, thelyrical content and the delivery
, because if you think of ofmavado, early mavado, you know
what I'm saying.
I'm on the rock, like he'sliterally singing because he's
(15:11):
in this suffering situation, buthe so melodically comes out of
a space and the rhythm is hard,like it's not a soft.
If you think about angry ormanagement, like we get excited
when we hear that rhythm, youknow what I mean.
And it's not just the rhythm,it's the lyrical, verbal war
(15:32):
that is happening, that it isalso coupled with the variety
Full clip till me sleep, likethat's my era of variety.
Go ahead, terry.
Speaker 4 (15:42):
But the variety has always been there.
You had Gonchun Beanie.
Yes, you had gun-chun beanie.
Yes, you have gyal-chun beanie,really, yes, wait, bounty
bulletproof forehead and headand everything but but yes, yeah
, you had.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
A little bit more clear, clear you understand as
long as you're standing there.
Speaker 4 (16:03):
Exactly right, you had that bounty as well, you
know, and it's like there'salways been variety.
Like Spragas says, search outthem ends and seek.
That's a love song.
You understand what I'm saying,but I get the love song.
Like he said, if you ever see agirl in shorts or slippers
looking like that, you knowsettersters, you can you
(16:26):
visualize, yes, me know, thegirl with the setters.
I walk, you know, but like,everything is just this one um,
this one tone, and it's like yo,yeah, as an artist, you have
dimension, you have, you havefun, don't you?
You fall in love, don't it you?
You know you, you have hardtimes and you know, like, show
(16:47):
that variety and what?
What we're not seeing is thatvariety, but that's always been
part of the music.
Michaela knows this.
Like I go back to Bount not,not Bountakila, not even being a
man, the bees them.
Buju Bantan, voice of Jamaica.
Like you're going to go througha wave of emotions in there.
You know Ima sing one PSA songabout.
(17:07):
You know safe sex.
Ima sing one song abouteverything, something wicked.
Ima sing about the poor teaGirl.
You made my day.
He's in love, and that's likewe need that variety and that's
kind of why some artists, theyhave that longevity, because
they have a variety of music,that even when you're at a
particular stage in life andyou're happy, I could pull a
(17:31):
tune from a particular artist torepresent how I feel or where I
am in a stage in my life, andthat is essentially what's
missing.
You can't sing both your othersong then, but if you're happy,
sing a happy song, you know asong then.
Speaker 3 (17:47):
But if you're happy, sing a happy song.
You know, crazy um, because Iknow you guys spoke about gage
last time and all the backlashit reached for dominia.
You know, and a lot of peopledon't remember that period of
gage when he stopped bleachingand he sung pure, conscious
music and then he got back thebleach because it's not popular
again Because he doesn't get nobookings.
He is a man who needs he hadthis song, Weed, money, girls,
(18:10):
honey, house and care and landfor me friends and me family.
If you know one of them, thenLike he had this stretch where
he was just talking pureconscious music and he wasn't
getting booked anywhere.
And when the gays start, youknow people are talking about
(18:35):
him.
So it is funny and you know,with the running funny.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
I think if you think about there is a simplistic like
.
There's this lack ofunderstanding, complex thoughts,
expressing complex thoughtsthrough song, complex passages,
(19:01):
reading like comprehension, wiseright For younger adults,
because video and audio playsuch a big part in the role of
learning that not only is theeducation kind of coming down in
terms of the delivery, but thatalso, in turn, waters down the
(19:25):
lyrical, creative content of thesongs.
And I think it's something thatwe didn't really discuss and we
have to take that intoconsideration because consumers
are now looking for simple, easysomething that is very similar.
That's how algorithms reallywork.
But it's not just TikTok, it'smedia, it's reading.
(19:48):
It's like people don't readbooks like they used to.
People don't read articles theway that they used to.
Like I was talking to Carriethe other day.
I'm like this article isn'teven 250 words, there's so many
grammatical errors and this ison like a big publication of a
website, like I think that thosethings cannot be pushed aside.
So the music is also reflectingwhere society is from a
(20:12):
consumption standpoint.
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 4 (20:15):
The music, except for Bounty Killer Vocabulary and.
Ti TI.
Ti, ti TI.
Ti and Bounty always have somebig word Me.
I said where did that come from?
It's fine, it's fine.
Me, I don't know what that wordis.
Me, I don't look it up.
No, I mean we're laughing, butagain, you're right.
(20:39):
No, it's true, Like they'reusing big words and me can't
guarantee if you always hear abig word and you have to
question what the word they mean.
Is that a real word?
Ti, I'm about to kill her.
Ever go say something.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
we are gonna be like dictionary app come like make up
words, you have to know wherethe origin comes from, like and
the context of that.
So that's why I said, likevibes cartel is kind of the last
of an era to kind of lyricallyplay on words and flows.
Speaker 4 (21:10):
But then you have Vibes, cartel, cxc.
You get these song texts thatare English.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
But that's what rhyming is, that's what songs
are, they're poems, they'repoetic, and people forget that
these are art forms that, shouldyou know, reflect some sort of
intelligence, like, if you'regonna tell a story, if you're
gonna tell a bad man story, tellthe story.
No man, give me the visuals.
(21:38):
But again, I'm asking for thatas a person who comes from an
era that that was the norm.
The next generation, that's notnecessarily the norm, because
they're more visually driven bythe, the images that they see on
their phone screens or tabletsor computers.
There are some creative videos.
Speaker 3 (22:01):
I'm not gonna lie, I've seen some really good ones,
but if they all look and feeland sound the same like to me, I
just can't I can't, I can't getwith it, but I understand it
and I let the people who like itrock, but that doesn't mean I
think it's good but you gottathink about it, even when it
comes to vibes cartel, because,like we said, there comes a
(22:22):
point where money has to comeinto play.
I pay attention to everythingvibes cartel does, and you know
what one thing Vibes Cartel isgoing to do that a lot of people
don't pay attention to?
He's going to try everything,even if it don't work.
When Tommy Lee came out and hewas Uncle Demon, don't nobody
remember Father Devil?
Uncle Demon worked and thenVibes Cartel tried to do the
(22:44):
song Father Devil.
Yes.
And people heard it and was likeno, and you never heard that
song ever again.
And he's doing it now because Iseen it, he was previewing some
song.
I think he did with one of hissongs, since he'd been out of
jail and Bob's Cartel talkingabout.
He called somebody on hisiPhone and he never get no dial
(23:05):
tone and I was like sir, pleasestop, you are 49 years old.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
The man's phone is um top.
Well, tell me.
Speaker 4 (23:13):
Oh, I'm not talking about Tommy, no, but remember um
, what's his name from born um,born to Americans.
Talked about how you know, whenin link up with the Moby DJ and
he start DJj in a more nasallytype way, like that's the
influence, than it work.
You know, like you know he, hehad some hits from that and it
(23:33):
worked for him.
So you're right, you know he'swilling to take uh, uh, he's
going to experience, yeah, anexperiment, yeah, yeah I mean a
perfect example.
It's one of his biggest hits andhe took something that every
little pitney jamaica know.
When they say speak gypsy, um,I wasn't one of those kids who
know.
(23:53):
My grandmother looked at me andsaid stop it.
But stop it, yes, right, but hetook something that was
inherently part of a culturewhere, even if you don't know
how to speak it, you know whatit is and you put it in one song
and it's his biggest chart.
What is highest charting songin his in his career?
(24:17):
You know like he was playing.
You know Fever like all overthe place.
So you are right about hiswillingness to experiment.
Speaker 3 (24:26):
Yeah, no, because you got to think about it.
Like would a lot of VibesCartel songs make it in today's
day and age?
Because where would you danceto it?
Tell me why.
Mr Big Yard Ling, like wherewould that work in TikTok?
I forgot which one it was, no,but I tried.
When I remember I saw a videoof that and I sent it to
(24:49):
everybody I do with my age groupand I'm like yo, where were you
?
Where was your greatest memoryof hearing this Vibes Cartel
song?
Everybody wrote me back.
It was like, oh, those were mydays back when I was clubbing
and you're in the club and youhear that vibe, tell them no
butter.
Tribe, call them no butter,hear that.
(25:12):
But there ain't nobody that try, goddamn nobody.
That.
I, we, everybody, everybody.
And you know that's what Imeant by part of it, where music
is also nostalgia, because Iseen dale elliott talking about
it, where when he was going toue, when alkaline came out and
he had a song After All, afterall, after all, dog, just a
weird pun, a car, ford, ford onthe wall, like he remembers that
(25:32):
song because at Yui, when thatsong played, the DJ cut off the
music and everybody sung it.
You guys might not know thatsong Me.
I've been listening to Alkalinesince he was in high school,
still before he graduated.
Speaker 4 (25:46):
When he had the black eyes, when he had the black
eyes before he had the black eyelong before he he was.
Speaker 3 (25:52):
and then I remember when he did the black eye thing
and and Alkaline always used tosing in his songs, when he put
the black eyes in 2016 and itwas 2014 and everybody's like yo
, what's going on, what's aboutto happen?
And you know, I remember beingwith my friends 2015, new year's
eve and when, 2060, they'relike Mike, you can finally sing
(26:14):
this part of the song nowbecause it makes sense, like you
know, and there's always thatmagic and that nostalgia of
music and people forget.
There's going to be a lot ofsongs that come and go and
there's a lot of songs from backin the days that people don't
know.
I know a few songs like FabFive and you know, like those
(26:35):
songs, and it's like I'm surethere was a lot of musicians
that came out that people werelike, oh, everybody was
listening to it, but did itcarry over?
but did it carry over, yeah, andwhen you match, when you try to
match nostalgia with everythingthat's coming out, especially,
like you said, in a generationwhere more music is coming out
(26:56):
in a month than came out in ayear, it's rough because a lot
of BS is going to slip throughit.
Speaker 2 (27:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (27:07):
And I was telling Carrie because I was watching a
podcast and I guess Lloyd Lang Iguess he's on IG as Reggaeology
yeah.
And I was listening to hispodcast.
I was like yo, like he spokeabout, like the diaspora bubble
and like the music industry andalgorithms and how you have to
(27:27):
play more to algorithms than youplay to people, which is, I
guess, good in a way becausethere aren't as many gatekeepers
, but it's bad in a way becauseit kind of crushes creativity
because everybody's rushing toget money.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
So there's definitely going to be a resurgence of
going back to live music inorder to combat a lot, because
now I talked a bit in a previousepisode about like AI and how
good it's getting at creating,but I think that the actual
(28:08):
experience of creating music notjust beat making, but actually
playing instruments and beingable to transition, like
incorporate digital elementsinto a live show and I would not
even be surprised if we get sofar as to there are going to be
(28:30):
artists who do not release their, like Prince don't release
their music on any streamingplatform and you have to go and
see them live in order to seethat.
Speaker 3 (28:40):
That'd be really dope .
Speaker 2 (28:41):
As as like a marketing, like you can't access
any of my music, you have tocome to my show.
Like I feel, like that's aBeyonce, like that's Beyonce's
next move.
I'm not releasing any morealbums, I have enough.
You need to come and see me inperson and you're gonna get all
this.
New clips might go around, butthey're not.
(29:02):
They're gonna be taken rightdown and you can't have it.
And it's in this exclusivepackage that only the artists
can distribute.
I think that's where we'regoing, because AI is getting way
too good, the algorithms.
People are just tired of thesame old, same old, and so the
only way to get somethingdifferent is to seek out
(29:26):
something different, and I thinkthat the next generation is
going to be seekingdifferentiation heavily, and
gatekeeping is all the waycoming back.
Speaker 3 (29:37):
No, I think you need it, it has to come back.
It has to because it's too much.
Speaker 4 (29:41):
Listen, listen, it's too much.
This is the biggest lesson Iwent fly the gate gone wrong.
Speaker 3 (29:48):
People need that because sometimes I get some
music and some yo dog listen tome new tune and you're like you
needed a producer to tell you no.
You needed somebody other thanyour dogs.
That was flunking high with youand that is the problem, that
they were there and that's theghost to show you how nostalgia
works, because somebody will sayyo listen to my present tune
(30:11):
and, brother, you're just happyabout this because y'all had a
good time making this.
This is garbage.
Speaker 4 (30:15):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (30:17):
And I'm happy for you that you had a good time making
it.
Speaker 4 (30:22):
But nobody.
No, like I voice the tune andit's only certain people hear
the tune.
Michaela knows the tune.
All right, it's my birthdaysong and nobody will ever hear
that song.
Speaker 3 (30:37):
Listen, I did some raps with my cousin.
When my cousin came up here hehad his computer and things that
we did and I'm like, oh yeah,never will I, ever, Never will
this see the light of day.
But it is fun.
But there needs to be a littlegatekeeping.
And I always find it funnybecause I tell people, over the
last two years I have seen thetrajectory and the moves that
(31:00):
seem to be happening withdancehall artists.
So what tends to happen is youget a one song, you get a buzz.
Then, when you start to get abuzz, then you start getting
bookings at local parties inyour parish.
After you get the parties inyour local parish, then you're
going to get a call because theycome from a lot of different
places.
But then you'll get a call froma couple places in Kingston.
(31:22):
Then you'll get a call fromMobe Negril Ochi and you start
to get that buzz now within thetourism.
And then all of a sudden Belize, one of the smaller Caribbean
islands, calls you and you seethem.
They're putting out music andthey're going to the shows and
(31:45):
they're constantly.
You get tired of them after awhile and then what happens?
Boom, US visa comes in.
Once the US visa comes in,they're going to hit the DC, the
New York, the Florida, theConnecticut.
They're going to hit thesestates where we are, as a
diaspora, heavy.
And then that's when, you see,their price goes up.
(32:05):
And once their price goes upfrom the states, you probably
won't hear them in that manyparties in Jamaica because their
price has outreached the ROIfor a Jamaican party.
So you'll see them at the bigSunFest, You'll see them at the
big Negril and Ochi and MontegoBay parties.
Then Canada Visa comes through.
Speaker 2 (32:27):
But that's the problem, right?
You can't just work one marketthe same way and essentially
people forget.
You have to do that over andover and over and over and over
again.
And I think that there's a lackof consistency there because
they think that, oh well, I'vegot this price here, I'm not
going to come back and do thislittle thing over here.
(32:48):
And that's really not the case.
You know like the work ethichas to trans, transcend.
You know the price, the priceright, because you'll eventually
get to the price.
And, trust me, all you reallyneed in a catalog is 10 songs In
order to say you're a catalogartist.
(33:09):
That's not even a full album.
10 songs can carry you toperform until you can no longer
perform anymore 10 my man homieis still going with one, with
one, is it motivation?
Speaker 3 (33:25):
yes, yes, exactly but no, that's that.
That's where music is, ed,you've've seen it.
Enhance is going through itright now.
Valiant went through it, skangwent through it Skilly's gone
through it, but Skilly's doing alittle bit better than most.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
Well, he's getting a lot of good features.
Speaker 3 (33:45):
He's getting his little oh mainstream.
Yeah, oh mainstream.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
He's getting really good features and I think that
that's good for him, but he alsokind of needs to drop his own
hit again.
Speaker 3 (33:58):
He needs that next one.
I need to leave my girl Shenskyalone and let her experiment.
Speaker 2 (34:02):
I tell everybody that I think she's doing good.
I think she's on a goodtrajectory.
Speaker 3 (34:07):
I think we're just getting jealous because she's
leaving us.
Speaker 2 (34:11):
No, I don't think so.
I think she kind of left alittle bit, but then she rallied
her own back on this album andI think she'll continue to do
that.
But thank you guys so much forall of the conversation.
I feel like we need a partthree because we had so much to
talk about.
Speaker 3 (34:30):
But thank you, thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
Absolutely.
Mikey T, carrie Ann.
Thank you guys so much forjoining me on this episode and,
like I always say, live tummypeeps.
Welcome to the Style and Vibes podcast.
With me, Makayla, I'll begiving you the inside scoop on
music, fashion, culture and morefrom Caribbean celebrities and
tastemakers across the globe,pushing our culture with
authenticity and, of course,style and vibes.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of
the Style and Vibes podcast withyours truly, Mikaela.
If you are new here, welcome tothe family.
If you are coming back, welcomefamily.
And I am joined by the extendedfamily, carrie Ann Reed-Brown.
You guys know her as theexecutive producer for Style and
Vibes and she was just on ourlast episode.
(00:43):
So this is kind of like acontinuation of that, because we
had so much to talk about withmusic discovery, especially
keeping up with the new music,and we were kind of discussing
it from our perspective andwanted to bring in our good,
good friend Mikey T Wagwan.
Mikey T.
So Mikey T has been on thepodcast before he joined us in
(01:06):
the commentary on the One Lovemovie.
He is a filmmaker himself.
We've had reviewed hisdocumentary A Jamaica Story on
Reels and Rhythms.
Quick plug for that podcast,that with me.
I'm Kerri-Ann Reed Brown.
If you have not alreadysubscribed, make sure you guys
go subscribe to that and checkout Jamaica's story.
(01:27):
But welcome Mikey T to theStylin' Vibes family.
Speaker 3 (01:32):
Thank you.
Thank you so much.
Thank you, ladies, for havingme Music.
I love it.
I love it.
It's interesting.
Yes, yes.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
So you had almost like a preview of that episode
that we recorded and I know thatyou and Kerry, you have to give
us the insight because we didnot talk in the community, but
we know you have a little moreinsight to the conversation.
So, kerry, kerry, all right, soquick back story.
Speaker 4 (02:00):
So I asked the community how they felt about
you know, like when they reach acertain age, like what aspects
of the culture that they areevolving, away from not totally
giving up.
And I did a poll and then whenI posted the results of the poll
(02:24):
, that most people were kind of,you know, moving away from
music, mikey T replied and saidwe have a whole world of comment
about people who have issuewith music and the music is
slack.
And I said you know what,you're not going to get the
argument from me there, becausethe argument that the music now
of today is too slack doesn't,it just doesn't live.
You know we can rebut thatargument in so many ways from
1980 to now.
So, but I said it was a littlebit more nuanced than that and
(02:47):
you know, I know Mikey T has alot to say about that.
So that's really the cliffnotes of that conversation.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
So in your perspective, Mikey, from the
commentary around the surveyitself to listening to our
podcast and the conversation,Tell me about your thoughts on
today's music coming out ofdance hall and kind of your
understanding in terms ofdiscovery and what do you think
(03:16):
as a consumer and a lover of theculture.
What is happening there?
Speaker 3 (03:21):
Okay, yeah, that's a tall order, but I have my notes
here, but I think dance hallmusic, for the most part, is
exactly where it needs to be,and I think a lot of people
forget the anthropologic part ofmusic, where a lot of people
are telling their stories andtelling their realities.
I think what tends to happen,though, is when the growth of
(03:48):
music going from okay, this iswhere I came from.
Now I'm going through thistransition what does that music
look like?
Staring away from the struggle,staring away from the one shirt
and the one shoes and mommyhungry and stuff like that.
How do we grow the music towhere we feel just as good,
(04:10):
listening to the positive sideof music, and I think that's
where Dancehall is missing whatreggae has captured.
Yes, we understand you have comefrom the struggle, but at some
point, brother, when I see youat 10 different parties with
$5,000 coins in your pocket, youcan't keep telling me, say
(04:32):
you're struggling and you can'tbe chopping that much money and
Mocha hasn't picked you up yetis a disconnect into where.
Telling a story of my realityto then glorifying a situation,
that is wrongdoing.
I get it.
(04:53):
You may have come from X, y, z,and we need to have that
conversation and that's why Isaid like, even when it comes to
scamming, songs which a lot ofpeople aren't OK with, I always
ask to take.
And when my friends send memusic, I'm like, are you
speaking of something that yougrew up seeing or are you trying
to glorify and trying to makesome quick sales?
(05:15):
Because one of the things thattend to happen and you guys
spoke about, like the discoveryof music, when you went to the
party and the DJ would play somenew music and test out the
crowd and you say, oh, what songis this?
And conversation starts tobubble about music.
But one of the things that tendto be happening I'm not sure if
it's here in the diaspora asmuch, but heavy in Jamaica DJs
(05:39):
are going to certain parties andthey don't care whether they
get paid or not, because theyare playing for the money
pull-up.
And the money pull-up isn'tgoing to come from the new
artist being played.
The money pull-up is going tocome from the chopper song.
Because when you play thechopper song, a chopper is going
to come and he's going to put afive thousand, he's going to
(06:00):
put a ten thousand dollar onyour council and then, when that
chopper put ten thousanddollars on your council and then
when that chap will put $10,000on your council, hear the DJ
why.
Man just come drop $10,000.
Next one has to reach, and youdon't know what money is
reaching there.
And then you hear it why UStouching the council $100 US for
money, pull up.
So now nobody is thinking tocome to the council unless they
(06:22):
have a hundred US or more.
And they're creating thisenvironment where they're trying
to just make their money.
They're not trying to spreadthe love of music, they're
trying to get paid in a way thatthey feel is substantial to
them.
So I think that's where life is.
We're running down the moneybecause we want to live the
(06:43):
lifestyle and we're forgettingthe part of it is the art and
the music.
Speaker 4 (06:47):
You said something there that I think Mikaela and I
we've talked about whatdancehall is missing and we
can't say hip hop is missing.
Some of that too.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
Right I was about to say it's not just dancehall, Our
genre right, it's across theboard.
I even watched a TikTok todaythat was asking about where is
the happy Afro beats music?
Yes, yes, yes.
So it's a trend across.
Black music that is popular.
And Mikey T, go ahead, Carrie.
(07:19):
I want to come back to thatpoint.
But, Carrie, go ahead.
Speaker 4 (07:23):
No, it's to that point right.
Remember, in hip hop you hadthe Fresh Prince and Jazzy Jeff
character In dancehall.
You had the Snaggapos, you hadthe Professor Nuts.
You know you had those who werecomedians but were, you know,
creating music, and you don'thave that anymore.
You had like, okay if youwanted to hear a song.
(07:43):
You don't have that anymore.
You had like, okay if youwanted to hear a song, right,
you know you had your snaggleposter, if you want.
You know you have your pie pie,you have your gun tune, you
have your girl tune, you haveall these other things.
And you know that diversity youknow we feel like is no longer
there and that diversity cametogether through what Rhythms?
Right, so on one rhythm you gohave a tati and then you go have
(08:08):
, you know Gwango, beria did,and you know Agodon, and we kind
of miss those criticalingredients and that's kind of
one of the reasons why peopleare nostalgic and they're like
music no good.
And I'm not saying good music,non-gopliya either.
We've already established that.
But you're right, like thedifferent types of music, the
(08:29):
happy, the fun aspects of music.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
And even the differentiation between the
artists on one rhythm.
Right, because if you have 10schema artists on one rhythm,
they all sound the same.
10 schema artists on one rhythm, they all sound the same the
(08:54):
contents, the lyrical flow, thecontent of what they're saying,
and just the melodic.
So there is no need for arhythm if they all sound the
same.
There's nothing distinct abouteach artist on a rhythm where
they all sound the same, wherethey all sound the same.
And I think that's why whenRussian resurged his rhythm and
there was a variety of people,almost like a competition,
trying to be on the rhythm, itwas because, one, it was
(09:15):
nostalgic.
Two, every artist was giving acompletely different energy.
So to your point, carrie, Ithink the idea of rhythms from a
popularity standpoint can stillexist, but as a producer, you
need to voice variety.
But, mikey T, you brought up areally good point about money
(09:37):
pull-up.
I mean, it's not like moneypull, but there was also, there
was still variety in thatpull-up.
And the other idea behind moneypull-up is because it's not
necessarily that that song isgood, it's just what the person
with the most money wants tohear mm-hmm Right, that is the
(10:02):
essence of it and that is theessence of it Right, and
sometimes it's good andsometimes it's not so you know,
majority of the time the personwith the most money.
Speaker 3 (10:11):
Especially when you go into the local parties and
the local scene, the person withthe most money tends to be the
person who is who is the chopper.
Was the chopper?
Yeah, and what you?
What you said in the um otherepisode, that was very
interesting and I never paidattention to, but I do
understand.
It is the vast amounts of musicthat is coming out.
(10:34):
The little equipment like thislaptop that I have on my desk
and I can buy a 200 plug-in anda 200 microphone and I can
record music, I can put outmusic.
Chronic law puts out a songalmost every day, you know, and
and not only a song, but he'sconstantly putting out songs and
(10:55):
he's constantly putting outmusic videos because there isn't
that gatekeeping.
So even if a producer holds andcherishes his rhythm like they
used to, the dancer, always belike yo bro, let me just go find
YouTube and download one tuneand when you know if it busts,
it busts, and that's whathappens to a lot of them.
And then, when you guys wereeven talking about the clean
(11:17):
music and Vibes Cartel beingthat kind of last era where
people used to do the radioedits.
I think, like you guys said,because there's so much new
music coming out and becausepeople want to constantly hear
new music, am I going to spendtime actually writing and
redoing my song to make a cleanversion to go on the radio that
(11:37):
nobody listens to?
Or am I just going to editwhatever so that the kids can
look it up on YouTube and playthat version of the song?
As long as it's not saying thebad words, the parents are fine
and that's what they end updoing.
And I guess we're running intothis era where there's too much
access, where you kind of sortof do need a little bit of a
(11:59):
gatekeeper.
Because I just seen I don'teven know the young kid's name,
but there's this young kid thatwas all over social media, came
out with some song, didsomething, and I saw him post
another new song and I'm justlike I have no idea what this
child is talking about.
You can tell he's trying toregurgitate the music that he's
heard and you know it's sad.
(12:23):
It's sad when there isn't aworld for everybody to be able
to write a song.
If Granny wake up one day,granny should be able to get on
a dance hall beat and be able tosing whatever she wants to sing
, because there should be thatessence of storytelling and joy
and fun that comes from ourmusic.
And when I say dance hall andstuff like that, I apologize.
(12:45):
I don't mean only dance hall isdoing this, but it is the genre
that I delve in the mostBecause, like you guys said, all
Black or African diaspora andAfrican music coming from us
tend to drift into this worldwhere it's like yo, if you ain't
talking about the ghetto, ifyou're not talking about
(13:05):
struggles, or you're not talkingabout this, you're not talking
about real music.
And it's like I want to be happytoo sometimes, like I have
people that go to carnival allover.
People don't want to go to theKingston carnival as much
because it's like they don'twant to hear a dance hall song
talking about poverty, talkingabout scamming and talking about
(13:26):
guns.
They go to carnival to dance,have a good time and listen to
songs about just straightpartying and we're kind of
losing that fun aspect.
Speaker 4 (13:38):
I just wanted to sing Monday, tuesday, wednesday.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
I mean, like you know energy, know energy vibe, like
that's what I want here and I Ithink that that's that's also a
key theme is variety, because Iliken a lot of the skama chapel
music to the gunman tune that wegrew up with.
You know, know what I mean.
And the slackness.
(14:03):
The slackness has always beenthere, right, it's just in your
face.
It's very raw.
So I totally understand.
But where the opportunity ismissed is the variety because,
like Governor is an artist thathas tried to bring storytelling,
idonia is another one,conscience is another one.
(14:24):
Like they constantly do avariety of galchun, funchun,
patachun, chun for the Monday,like they do the variety, but it
doesn't get the same responseas like a skeng or a chronic law
.
And like, for me, chronic law,like I think he's lyrically
talented but it's just too darkfor where I am in my life at
(14:48):
this point and I think a lot ofthe music is just, not only is
the rhythm, the rhythms are verydark and very heavy, but then
you couple that with the, thelyrical content and the delivery
, because if you think of ofmavado, early mavado, you know
what I'm saying.
I'm on the rock, like he'sliterally singing because he's
(15:11):
in this suffering situation, buthe so melodically comes out of
a space and the rhythm is hard,like it's not a soft.
If you think about angry ormanagement, like we get excited
when we hear that rhythm, youknow what I mean.
And it's not just the rhythm,it's the lyrical, verbal war
(15:32):
that is happening, that it isalso coupled with the variety
Full clip till me sleep, likethat's my era of variety.
Go ahead, terry.
Speaker 4 (15:42):
But the variety has always been there.
You had Gonchun Beanie.
Yes, you had gun-chun beanie.
Yes, you have gyal-chun beanie,really, yes, wait, bounty
bulletproof forehead and headand everything but but yes, yeah
, you had.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
A little bit more clear, clear you understand as
long as you're standing there.
Speaker 4 (16:03):
Exactly right, you had that bounty as well, you
know, and it's like there'salways been variety.
Like Spragas says, search outthem ends and seek.
That's a love song.
You understand what I'm saying,but I get the love song.
Like he said, if you ever see agirl in shorts or slippers
looking like that, you knowsettersters, you can you
(16:26):
visualize, yes, me know, thegirl with the setters.
I walk, you know, but like,everything is just this one um,
this one tone, and it's like yo,yeah, as an artist, you have
dimension, you have, you havefun, don't you?
You fall in love, don't it you?
You know you, you have hardtimes and you know, like, show
(16:47):
that variety and what?
What we're not seeing is thatvariety, but that's always been
part of the music.
Michaela knows this.
Like I go back to Bount not,not Bountakila, not even being a
man, the bees them.
Buju Bantan, voice of Jamaica.
Like you're going to go througha wave of emotions in there.
You know Ima sing one PSA songabout.
(17:07):
You know safe sex.
Ima sing one song abouteverything, something wicked.
Ima sing about the poor teaGirl.
You made my day.
He's in love, and that's likewe need that variety and that's
kind of why some artists, theyhave that longevity, because
they have a variety of music,that even when you're at a
particular stage in life andyou're happy, I could pull a
(17:31):
tune from a particular artist torepresent how I feel or where I
am in a stage in my life, andthat is essentially what's
missing.
You can't sing both your othersong then, but if you're happy,
sing a happy song, you know asong then.
Speaker 3 (17:47):
But if you're happy, sing a happy song.
You know, crazy um, because Iknow you guys spoke about gage
last time and all the backlashit reached for dominia.
You know, and a lot of peopledon't remember that period of
gage when he stopped bleachingand he sung pure, conscious
music and then he got back thebleach because it's not popular
again Because he doesn't get nobookings.
He is a man who needs he hadthis song, Weed, money, girls,
(18:10):
honey, house and care and landfor me friends and me family.
If you know one of them, thenLike he had this stretch where
he was just talking pureconscious music and he wasn't
getting booked anywhere.
And when the gays start, youknow people are talking about
(18:35):
him.
So it is funny and you know,with the running funny.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
I think if you think about there is a simplistic like
.
There's this lack ofunderstanding, complex thoughts,
expressing complex thoughtsthrough song, complex passages,
(19:01):
reading like comprehension, wiseright For younger adults,
because video and audio playsuch a big part in the role of
learning that not only is theeducation kind of coming down in
terms of the delivery, but thatalso, in turn, waters down the
(19:25):
lyrical, creative content of thesongs.
And I think it's something thatwe didn't really discuss and we
have to take that intoconsideration because consumers
are now looking for simple, easysomething that is very similar.
That's how algorithms reallywork.
But it's not just TikTok, it'smedia, it's reading.
(19:48):
It's like people don't readbooks like they used to.
People don't read articles theway that they used to.
Like I was talking to Carriethe other day.
I'm like this article isn'teven 250 words, there's so many
grammatical errors and this ison like a big publication of a
website, like I think that thosethings cannot be pushed aside.
So the music is also reflectingwhere society is from a
(20:12):
consumption standpoint.
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 4 (20:15):
The music, except for Bounty Killer Vocabulary and.
Ti TI.
Ti, ti TI.
Ti and Bounty always have somebig word Me.
I said where did that come from?
It's fine, it's fine.
Me, I don't know what that wordis.
Me, I don't look it up.
No, I mean we're laughing, butagain, you're right.
(20:39):
No, it's true, Like they'reusing big words and me can't
guarantee if you always hear abig word and you have to
question what the word they mean.
Is that a real word?
Ti, I'm about to kill her.
Ever go say something.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
we are gonna be like dictionary app come like make up
words, you have to know wherethe origin comes from, like and
the context of that.
So that's why I said, likevibes cartel is kind of the last
of an era to kind of lyricallyplay on words and flows.
Speaker 4 (21:10):
But then you have Vibes, cartel, cxc.
You get these song texts thatare English.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
But that's what rhyming is, that's what songs
are, they're poems, they'repoetic, and people forget that
these are art forms that, shouldyou know, reflect some sort of
intelligence, like, if you'regonna tell a story, if you're
gonna tell a bad man story, tellthe story.
No man, give me the visuals.
(21:38):
But again, I'm asking for thatas a person who comes from an
era that that was the norm.
The next generation, that's notnecessarily the norm, because
they're more visually driven bythe, the images that they see on
their phone screens or tabletsor computers.
There are some creative videos.
Speaker 3 (22:01):
I'm not gonna lie, I've seen some really good ones,
but if they all look and feeland sound the same like to me, I
just can't I can't, I can't getwith it, but I understand it
and I let the people who like itrock, but that doesn't mean I
think it's good but you gottathink about it, even when it
comes to vibes cartel, because,like we said, there comes a
(22:22):
point where money has to comeinto play.
I pay attention to everythingvibes cartel does, and you know
what one thing Vibes Cartel isgoing to do that a lot of people
don't pay attention to?
He's going to try everything,even if it don't work.
When Tommy Lee came out and hewas Uncle Demon, don't nobody
remember Father Devil?
Uncle Demon worked and thenVibes Cartel tried to do the
(22:44):
song Father Devil.
Yes.
And people heard it and was likeno, and you never heard that
song ever again.
And he's doing it now because Iseen it, he was previewing some
song.
I think he did with one of hissongs, since he'd been out of
jail and Bob's Cartel talkingabout.
He called somebody on hisiPhone and he never get no dial
(23:05):
tone and I was like sir, pleasestop, you are 49 years old.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
The man's phone is um top.
Well, tell me.
Speaker 4 (23:13):
Oh, I'm not talking about Tommy, no, but remember um
, what's his name from born um,born to Americans.
Talked about how you know, whenin link up with the Moby DJ and
he start DJj in a more nasallytype way, like that's the
influence, than it work.
You know, like you know he, hehad some hits from that and it
(23:33):
worked for him.
So you're right, you know he'swilling to take uh, uh, he's
going to experience, yeah, anexperiment, yeah, yeah I mean a
perfect example.
It's one of his biggest hits andhe took something that every
little pitney jamaica know.
When they say speak gypsy, um,I wasn't one of those kids who
know.
(23:53):
My grandmother looked at me andsaid stop it.
But stop it, yes, right, but hetook something that was
inherently part of a culturewhere, even if you don't know
how to speak it, you know whatit is and you put it in one song
and it's his biggest chart.
What is highest charting songin his in his career?
(24:17):
You know like he was playing.
You know Fever like all overthe place.
So you are right about hiswillingness to experiment.
Speaker 3 (24:26):
Yeah, no, because you got to think about it.
Like would a lot of VibesCartel songs make it in today's
day and age?
Because where would you danceto it?
Tell me why.
Mr Big Yard Ling, like wherewould that work in TikTok?
I forgot which one it was, no,but I tried.
When I remember I saw a videoof that and I sent it to
(24:49):
everybody I do with my age groupand I'm like yo, where were you
?
Where was your greatest memoryof hearing this Vibes Cartel
song?
Everybody wrote me back.
It was like, oh, those were mydays back when I was clubbing
and you're in the club and youhear that vibe, tell them no
butter.
Tribe, call them no butter,hear that.
(25:12):
But there ain't nobody that try, goddamn nobody.
That.
I, we, everybody, everybody.
And you know that's what Imeant by part of it, where music
is also nostalgia, because Iseen dale elliott talking about
it, where when he was going toue, when alkaline came out and
he had a song After All, afterall, after all, dog, just a
weird pun, a car, ford, ford onthe wall, like he remembers that
(25:32):
song because at Yui, when thatsong played, the DJ cut off the
music and everybody sung it.
You guys might not know thatsong Me.
I've been listening to Alkalinesince he was in high school,
still before he graduated.
Speaker 4 (25:46):
When he had the black eyes, when he had the black
eyes before he had the black eyelong before he he was.
Speaker 3 (25:52):
and then I remember when he did the black eye thing
and and Alkaline always used tosing in his songs, when he put
the black eyes in 2016 and itwas 2014 and everybody's like yo
, what's going on, what's aboutto happen?
And you know, I remember beingwith my friends 2015, new year's
eve and when, 2060, they'relike Mike, you can finally sing
(26:14):
this part of the song nowbecause it makes sense, like you
know, and there's always thatmagic and that nostalgia of
music and people forget.
There's going to be a lot ofsongs that come and go and
there's a lot of songs from backin the days that people don't
know.
I know a few songs like FabFive and you know, like those
(26:35):
songs, and it's like I'm surethere was a lot of musicians
that came out that people werelike, oh, everybody was
listening to it, but did itcarry over?
but did it carry over, yeah, andwhen you match, when you try to
match nostalgia with everythingthat's coming out, especially,
like you said, in a generationwhere more music is coming out
(26:56):
in a month than came out in ayear, it's rough because a lot
of BS is going to slip throughit.
Speaker 2 (27:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (27:07):
And I was telling Carrie because I was watching a
podcast and I guess Lloyd Lang Iguess he's on IG as Reggaeology
yeah.
And I was listening to hispodcast.
I was like yo, like he spokeabout, like the diaspora bubble
and like the music industry andalgorithms and how you have to
(27:27):
play more to algorithms than youplay to people, which is, I
guess, good in a way becausethere aren't as many gatekeepers
, but it's bad in a way becauseit kind of crushes creativity
because everybody's rushing toget money.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
So there's definitely going to be a resurgence of
going back to live music inorder to combat a lot, because
now I talked a bit in a previousepisode about like AI and how
good it's getting at creating,but I think that the actual
(28:08):
experience of creating music notjust beat making, but actually
playing instruments and beingable to transition, like
incorporate digital elementsinto a live show and I would not
even be surprised if we get sofar as to there are going to be
(28:30):
artists who do not release their, like Prince don't release
their music on any streamingplatform and you have to go and
see them live in order to seethat.
Speaker 3 (28:40):
That'd be really dope .
Speaker 2 (28:41):
As as like a marketing, like you can't access
any of my music, you have tocome to my show.
Like I feel, like that's aBeyonce, like that's Beyonce's
next move.
I'm not releasing any morealbums, I have enough.
You need to come and see me inperson and you're gonna get all
this.
New clips might go around, butthey're not.
(29:02):
They're gonna be taken rightdown and you can't have it.
And it's in this exclusivepackage that only the artists
can distribute.
I think that's where we'regoing, because AI is getting way
too good, the algorithms.
People are just tired of thesame old, same old, and so the
only way to get somethingdifferent is to seek out
(29:26):
something different, and I thinkthat the next generation is
going to be seekingdifferentiation heavily, and
gatekeeping is all the waycoming back.
Speaker 3 (29:37):
No, I think you need it, it has to come back.
It has to because it's too much.
Speaker 4 (29:41):
Listen, listen, it's too much.
This is the biggest lesson Iwent fly the gate gone wrong.
Speaker 3 (29:48):
People need that because sometimes I get some
music and some yo dog listen tome new tune and you're like you
needed a producer to tell you no.
You needed somebody other thanyour dogs.
That was flunking high with youand that is the problem, that
they were there and that's theghost to show you how nostalgia
works, because somebody will sayyo listen to my present tune
(30:11):
and, brother, you're just happyabout this because y'all had a
good time making this.
This is garbage.
Speaker 4 (30:15):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (30:17):
And I'm happy for you that you had a good time making
it.
Speaker 4 (30:22):
But nobody.
No, like I voice the tune andit's only certain people hear
the tune.
Michaela knows the tune.
All right, it's my birthdaysong and nobody will ever hear
that song.
Speaker 3 (30:37):
Listen, I did some raps with my cousin.
When my cousin came up here hehad his computer and things that
we did and I'm like, oh yeah,never will I, ever, Never will
this see the light of day.
But it is fun.
But there needs to be a littlegatekeeping.
And I always find it funnybecause I tell people, over the
last two years I have seen thetrajectory and the moves that
(31:00):
seem to be happening withdancehall artists.
So what tends to happen is youget a one song, you get a buzz.
Then, when you start to get abuzz, then you start getting
bookings at local parties inyour parish.
After you get the parties inyour local parish, then you're
going to get a call because theycome from a lot of different
places.
But then you'll get a call froma couple places in Kingston.
(31:22):
Then you'll get a call fromMobe Negril Ochi and you start
to get that buzz now within thetourism.
And then all of a sudden Belize, one of the smaller Caribbean
islands, calls you and you seethem.
They're putting out music andthey're going to the shows and
(31:45):
they're constantly.
You get tired of them after awhile and then what happens?
Boom, US visa comes in.
Once the US visa comes in,they're going to hit the DC, the
New York, the Florida, theConnecticut.
They're going to hit thesestates where we are, as a
diaspora, heavy.
And then that's when, you see,their price goes up.
(32:05):
And once their price goes upfrom the states, you probably
won't hear them in that manyparties in Jamaica because their
price has outreached the ROIfor a Jamaican party.
So you'll see them at the bigSunFest, You'll see them at the
big Negril and Ochi and MontegoBay parties.
Then Canada Visa comes through.
Speaker 2 (32:27):
But that's the problem, right?
You can't just work one marketthe same way and essentially
people forget.
You have to do that over andover and over and over and over
again.
And I think that there's a lackof consistency there because
they think that, oh well, I'vegot this price here, I'm not
going to come back and do thislittle thing over here.
(32:48):
And that's really not the case.
You know like the work ethichas to trans, transcend.
You know the price, the priceright, because you'll eventually
get to the price.
And, trust me, all you reallyneed in a catalog is 10 songs In
order to say you're a catalogartist.
(33:09):
That's not even a full album.
10 songs can carry you toperform until you can no longer
perform anymore 10 my man homieis still going with one, with
one, is it motivation?
Speaker 3 (33:25):
yes, yes, exactly but no, that's that.
That's where music is, ed,you've've seen it.
Enhance is going through itright now.
Valiant went through it, skangwent through it Skilly's gone
through it, but Skilly's doing alittle bit better than most.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
Well, he's getting a lot of good features.
Speaker 3 (33:45):
He's getting his little oh mainstream.
Yeah, oh mainstream.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
He's getting really good features and I think that
that's good for him, but he alsokind of needs to drop his own
hit again.
Speaker 3 (33:58):
He needs that next one.
I need to leave my girl Shenskyalone and let her experiment.
Speaker 2 (34:02):
I tell everybody that I think she's doing good.
I think she's on a goodtrajectory.
Speaker 3 (34:07):
I think we're just getting jealous because she's
leaving us.
Speaker 2 (34:11):
No, I don't think so.
I think she kind of left alittle bit, but then she rallied
her own back on this album andI think she'll continue to do
that.
But thank you guys so much forall of the conversation.
I feel like we need a partthree because we had so much to
talk about.
Speaker 3 (34:30):
But thank you, thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
Absolutely.
Mikey T, carrie Ann.
Thank you guys so much forjoining me on this episode and,
like I always say, live tummypeeps.
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