February 5, 2026 • 15 mins
Stephanie breaks down the lion vs gazelle mentalities, the 4 pillars of building your desk and how to self-assess it regularly, and the 30-day challenge that can truly transform your game.
Listen
Watch
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to the Talent Trade.
(00:02):
I am your host, Stephanie Maas, partner here at Thinking Ahead.
And today we're gonna talk about tenacity slash courage.
Alright, I wanna set the stage a little bit.
Two main thoughts.
One was this analogy and the difference between a lion and a gazelle and their mission.
(00:24):
Every day when they wake up, the lion wakes up.
Most days perfectly fine, but every so often.
It's not every day, but every so often.
Once a week, twice a week, I don't know, once a month he wakes up hungry.
And then for his survival or her survival, they have to go find food to live.
(00:45):
The gazelle, on the other hand, wakes up.
Running for its life because the weakest gazelle becomes the food.
So it's two very real, very different mentalities.
One is running towards the other is running from, and when I started to think about that andthat analogy, it really hit me that for most recruiters most days we're off to the races.
(01:14):
We're off running.
Sometimes it's because we're so hungry.
We haven't had a search in 45 days and we desperately need something to stay alive.
Sometimes it's, Hey, I've gotta find candidates to put, because I toldthis client I would and spend three weeks and I don't have anybody, and now I'm running for my life to keep this search alive kind of thing.
(01:35):
There's nothing wrong with either one of them.
They're both right.
They both serve us incredibly well.
When the time is right.
In our profession and in life, but I'm gonna stay professional.
There tends to be a cycle that most of us go through atsome point or another, and most often it's on repeat.
(01:57):
The length of time, it's three different cycles.
The length of time for the cycle can totally depend.
But to be a successful long-term recruiter, you will experience all three of these.
The three step cycle is survive.
Strive and thrive.
Breaking that down to professional side of things.
(02:18):
Typically when you are billing less than 150,000, that's survival mode.
You are working to cover your draw.
You're learning the business.
It's skill development, it's volume.
You are creating a foundation for what will hopefullybe a very successful business, AKA desk down the road.
(02:40):
Most of us here we are now in the second or third stage.
Second stage being the striving stage.
Striving typically looks like you're probably billing between one 50 and 300.
You kind of got things figured out.
You're still doing some skill development.
(03:02):
You're learning a little as you go, but you know enough to also learn from others.
This is really what I call kind of the building.
You know, if step one is laying the foundation, this is raising thewalls, this is really building our desk, building a reputation, et cetera.
And then the third stage, and this is where we typically getto consistently billing over 300, 3 25 on a regular basis.
(03:31):
That's the Thrive stage.
I will tell you in my 25 year career, I have been at all three multiple times, and thepoint isn't the fact that you go up and down and all around, I mean, that's just life.
The point is recognizing where you're at and being intentional to get to where do you want to go?
(03:53):
So what I'm gonna do is break down what it really means to thrive in this business.
What does that mean in a tactical, practical way as it relates to our desk?
Not philosophical, although there's gonna be a little bit of that.
But what does that really mean if, if I'm going to engage, what does that really mean for my desk?
(04:17):
There are four main pillars to our desk.
Recruiting biz dev planning.
The head game.
So as we talk about the tactical and practical, those are the four kind of areas we wanna pull to.
So we're gonna start with tenacity, also.
Courage, tenacity slash courage.
(04:41):
When we think about tenacity, that's just certain number of calls, certain amount of call time.
Those are the metrics.
'cause that's super tactical and practical.
So when we're in a survive stage, it's just, Hey, canwe create muscle memory to make 35 to 60 calls a day?
Leave high quality voicemails, start having engaging conversations.
(05:01):
When you're in the strive zone, those conversations are leading to consistently winningsearch assignments, recruiting candidates, you start filling roles, those type of things.
What does a metric in the Thrive stage look like?
Consistently producing over three-ish, putting the work in when the work counts,even if it's uncomfortable, or even if we've already quote unquote, had a good day.
(05:27):
So we go, okay, I typically make five to 10 businesscalls a day, and they are typically this level person.
I've got three or four talent acquisition folks in there.
I've got three or four VPs, and then I might call one or twoboard members or CEOs or presidents or whatever you wanna call it.
So that's our striving.
Nope, my five to 10 is now gonna be six board members or CEOs or presidents or that level.
(05:54):
I still need to talk to a couple talent folks on aca, you know, on the regular, but not like I do here.
That's exactly what we're talking about.
This is the next level.
This is taking it up and being tenacious enough to beaware of it, plan for it, and then the courage comes in.
(06:16):
Even though it might feel, we may feel a little under confident, wedo it anyway, which is also, it brings us right back to tenacity.
Tenacity is just doing it.
Just doing it.
Yes.
It feels uncomfortable.
Yes.
I feel under confident.
I'm gonna do it anyway, bringing that planning kind of to the next levelis pick out the top 10 people want to talk to every day and call them first thing, and this is gonna sound crazy, but not leave a message.
(06:45):
And again, this relates to biz dev or recruiting, not money calls or processcalls, and then that four to five window call them back, and now this they again, they're more likely to answer anyway because of the time of day.
Then secondly, so now it's like, Hey, this guy's trying to get in touch with me.
That's a elevation, that's a thriving practice.
(07:07):
As it relates to planning, we talk to anybody that's a top producer.
They talk about planning.
Most of us do it most of the time.
To the point where I was actually talking with a new hire on the banking teamand one of her goals for the next 30 days, and I thought this was really great.
An incredible pickup on her behalf was she said, Hey,when I first started I just, this was my marketing time.
(07:31):
This was my recruiting time.
I just had the blocks of time.
And now for the next 30 to 45 days, she is actually gonnago into those blocks of time and make them super specific.
Like, this is an hour of marketing in this.
Territory looking for this type of role.
A search.
I can win with this type of role.
(07:52):
Then I'm gonna do a marketing block, you know, calling on thiskind of person, looking for this kind of role in this territory.
Then I'm gonna do recruiting for this search that I'm working on.
And part of her planning, taking it to the next level is before she closes out atnight, she's gonna already have the 10, 15 people in each block that she needs to call.
(08:15):
So that not only is she well planned and specifically planned, butthe people, the phone numbers, all of that is teed up and ready to go.
That's next level planning.
That's planning with incredible intention, and again, life happens.
Best life plans, whatever.
However, we are something I can level up.
(08:37):
We are something I can show better tenacity, better courage, whatever.
We all have multiple things that we have to accomplish in our day.
We have multiple roles that we play in our lives, but being incredibly intentional about whatwe're doing, when we're doing it and how we're doing it transitions us from strive to thrive.
Let's talk about the head game, 'cause that seems a little more abstract.
(09:01):
Tenacity slash courage.
When we start in the business is just do the work.
Just do the work, show up in an attitude of gratitude.
Just do the work.
Just do the work, and that's great.
In the beginning for survival mode, it's often just about showing up.
Then the next level is showing up with some intention.
And allowing us to feel good for things like, Hey, I won a search.
(09:24):
I mean, honestly, there was a period of time where even after 15 years in the business, Iwas still excited that I actually won a search because it was so inconsistent in my world.
Now the next level is just getting to that emotional maturitywhere you can coach yourself, you can talk to yourself.
Not that we don't still need outside influences, but.
(09:45):
Hey, this is just part of the process.
I know I'm doing what I need to be doing.
I need to trust the process.
Almost we get so good in the thriving where we're not devoid of emotion 'cause thatI hope that never happens, but the impact just doesn't affect us like it used to.
What I hear a lot of with the head game is I love the idea of you keep thesurvivor mentality, keep the hunger, but we want to operate in a elevated sense.
(10:15):
We're still hungry.
Uh, we don't wanna be the lion that we just get up and wehaven't had a placement in, you know, a month or two months.
We wanna get up every day knowing, hey, I probably need to find food today.
But the other side of that, that next level side is these are some things in practice.
Part of this is, it's just.
Professional self-awareness.
Like most of us we're.
(10:35):
We're pretty good at checking in with ourselves, seeing how we'redoing as a human, all the things that give us pitfalls and blinders.
Also, we can have pitfalls and blinders on our desk and having a regular every week, everytwo weeks, once a month, whatever works best for you, but self-assessment of your desk.
Hey, if I was, you know, if I didn't know me and I was comingin and looking at my desk right now, what does it look like?
(11:01):
Is what I have going on, align with my goals, and I'll give you an um, an exercise you can do.
It's stupid simple.
Pull out your par.
Let's look at everything in your pipeline.
Write down every little thing what the fee could be.
So right now in your pipeline, you've got what lookslike could close over the next 90 days, about 75,000.
(11:24):
Okay, well, your goal a quarter is a hundred thousand and we never bat a hundred.
So usually.
If you're really good at this job or if you're decent,you're gonna close about 50% of what's on your desk.
If you're great, you might close 70, but we also know theproverbial poo could hit the fan at any time, and you close 30%.
(11:46):
Figure out those numbers.
What is it at 30%, 50%, and 70%?
It's just reality.
And I know people don't always like to look at the numbers that, you know, I used to jinx.
I don't wanna, I don't wanna talk a deal about a deal before it closed.
This isn't that.
This is professional maturity.
This is being a grownup.
Every business does forecasting.
We need to do it too.
But this is what you do when you're in a thrive mode.
(12:08):
You don't do it when you're in survival.
It's too defeat.
So instead, you know, sit down with your leader or manager or yourself, andon a regular basis, do a gut check of your desk with real numbers, real facts.
And then you can go, okay, I know how to adjust my behaviors.
You know, again, it's super, it's, it can be such a great tool because then youcan go back and say, you know, I've been, I've been patting myself on the back for having all these marketing calls and connects, but I haven't won a search.
(12:39):
So the survival slash striver.
Can feel good about making a lot of marketing calls, but my activity hasn'tbeen effective in netting results, so no more pats on the back for that.
I now can pat myself on the back when I send out a search assignmentcontract, so instead of patting myself on the back, like, oh, yay, look at me.
(13:01):
I made this many Vista calls this week.
Instead, it's, Hey, I, I sent out three proposals this week.
That really is what moves a needle.
Let me take it one step further.
And I'm going to spotlight and highlight the word courage a little bit.
When you think about courage in our desk, what makes you feel courageous?
I'll share.
For me, this may come as a surprise, but I actually don't like confrontation.
(13:25):
So now look, I'll bow up for my people.
I will confront for the people I love.
But when it comes to myself, my own world, those type of things, I don't like confrontation.
So anytime I have to have a confrontation, or if I need to ask a hardquestion or a question that I don't think I'm gonna like the answer, you know, like, Hey, what, what would make you not take this job?
(13:48):
That's a difference between a striver and a thriver is the striver just dances around it.
A thriver says a point blank.
Hey, I know you're excited.
I appreciate all that.
Thank you for sharing it.
But I'm just curious, what would make you not take this Anytime I have to do the pushback.
Yeah, that's always a tough one for me.
(14:10):
But do an audit of your desk over the next 30 days.
And look for one area where you feel like you can up your tenacity for your courage.
Just one.
Just one.
And again, this isn't about reinventing the wheel.
We're not reinventing ourselves, we are just leveling up.
(14:32):
But is one thing that you can do.
To take your tenacity or courage to the next level in your desk.
And then of course the idea would be you put that into practice as soonas you know what it's, I truly believe if y'all go through this with me and just these little bitty changes you're gonna see at transformation.
And I truly believe it's possible.
Welcome to the Talent Trade.
(00:02):
I am your host, Stephanie Maas, partner here at Thinking Ahead.
And today we're gonna talk about tenacity slash courage.
Alright, I wanna set the stage a little bit.
Two main thoughts.
One was this analogy and the difference between a lion and a gazelle and their mission.
(00:24):
Every day when they wake up, the lion wakes up.
Most days perfectly fine, but every so often.
It's not every day, but every so often.
Once a week, twice a week, I don't know, once a month he wakes up hungry.
And then for his survival or her survival, they have to go find food to live.
(00:45):
The gazelle, on the other hand, wakes up.
Running for its life because the weakest gazelle becomes the food.
So it's two very real, very different mentalities.
One is running towards the other is running from, and when I started to think about that andthat analogy, it really hit me that for most recruiters most days we're off to the races.
(01:14):
We're off running.
Sometimes it's because we're so hungry.
We haven't had a search in 45 days and we desperately need something to stay alive.
Sometimes it's, Hey, I've gotta find candidates to put, because I toldthis client I would and spend three weeks and I don't have anybody, and now I'm running for my life to keep this search alive kind of thing.
(01:35):
There's nothing wrong with either one of them.
They're both right.
They both serve us incredibly well.
When the time is right.
In our profession and in life, but I'm gonna stay professional.
There tends to be a cycle that most of us go through atsome point or another, and most often it's on repeat.
(01:57):
The length of time, it's three different cycles.
The length of time for the cycle can totally depend.
But to be a successful long-term recruiter, you will experience all three of these.
The three step cycle is survive.
Strive and thrive.
Breaking that down to professional side of things.
(02:18):
Typically when you are billing less than 150,000, that's survival mode.
You are working to cover your draw.
You're learning the business.
It's skill development, it's volume.
You are creating a foundation for what will hopefullybe a very successful business, AKA desk down the road.
(02:40):
Most of us here we are now in the second or third stage.
Second stage being the striving stage.
Striving typically looks like you're probably billing between one 50 and 300.
You kind of got things figured out.
You're still doing some skill development.
(03:02):
You're learning a little as you go, but you know enough to also learn from others.
This is really what I call kind of the building.
You know, if step one is laying the foundation, this is raising thewalls, this is really building our desk, building a reputation, et cetera.
And then the third stage, and this is where we typically getto consistently billing over 300, 3 25 on a regular basis.
(03:31):
That's the Thrive stage.
I will tell you in my 25 year career, I have been at all three multiple times, and thepoint isn't the fact that you go up and down and all around, I mean, that's just life.
The point is recognizing where you're at and being intentional to get to where do you want to go?
(03:53):
So what I'm gonna do is break down what it really means to thrive in this business.
What does that mean in a tactical, practical way as it relates to our desk?
Not philosophical, although there's gonna be a little bit of that.
But what does that really mean if, if I'm going to engage, what does that really mean for my desk?
(04:17):
There are four main pillars to our desk.
Recruiting biz dev planning.
The head game.
So as we talk about the tactical and practical, those are the four kind of areas we wanna pull to.
So we're gonna start with tenacity, also.
Courage, tenacity slash courage.
(04:41):
When we think about tenacity, that's just certain number of calls, certain amount of call time.
Those are the metrics.
'cause that's super tactical and practical.
So when we're in a survive stage, it's just, Hey, canwe create muscle memory to make 35 to 60 calls a day?
Leave high quality voicemails, start having engaging conversations.
(05:01):
When you're in the strive zone, those conversations are leading to consistently winningsearch assignments, recruiting candidates, you start filling roles, those type of things.
What does a metric in the Thrive stage look like?
Consistently producing over three-ish, putting the work in when the work counts,even if it's uncomfortable, or even if we've already quote unquote, had a good day.
(05:27):
So we go, okay, I typically make five to 10 businesscalls a day, and they are typically this level person.
I've got three or four talent acquisition folks in there.
I've got three or four VPs, and then I might call one or twoboard members or CEOs or presidents or whatever you wanna call it.
So that's our striving.
Nope, my five to 10 is now gonna be six board members or CEOs or presidents or that level.
(05:54):
I still need to talk to a couple talent folks on aca, you know, on the regular, but not like I do here.
That's exactly what we're talking about.
This is the next level.
This is taking it up and being tenacious enough to beaware of it, plan for it, and then the courage comes in.
(06:16):
Even though it might feel, we may feel a little under confident, wedo it anyway, which is also, it brings us right back to tenacity.
Tenacity is just doing it.
Just doing it.
Yes.
It feels uncomfortable.
Yes.
I feel under confident.
I'm gonna do it anyway, bringing that planning kind of to the next levelis pick out the top 10 people want to talk to every day and call them first thing, and this is gonna sound crazy, but not leave a message.
(06:45):
And again, this relates to biz dev or recruiting, not money calls or processcalls, and then that four to five window call them back, and now this they again, they're more likely to answer anyway because of the time of day.
Then secondly, so now it's like, Hey, this guy's trying to get in touch with me.
That's a elevation, that's a thriving practice.
(07:07):
As it relates to planning, we talk to anybody that's a top producer.
They talk about planning.
Most of us do it most of the time.
To the point where I was actually talking with a new hire on the banking teamand one of her goals for the next 30 days, and I thought this was really great.
An incredible pickup on her behalf was she said, Hey,when I first started I just, this was my marketing time.
(07:31):
This was my recruiting time.
I just had the blocks of time.
And now for the next 30 to 45 days, she is actually gonnago into those blocks of time and make them super specific.
Like, this is an hour of marketing in this.
Territory looking for this type of role.
A search.
I can win with this type of role.
(07:52):
Then I'm gonna do a marketing block, you know, calling on thiskind of person, looking for this kind of role in this territory.
Then I'm gonna do recruiting for this search that I'm working on.
And part of her planning, taking it to the next level is before she closes out atnight, she's gonna already have the 10, 15 people in each block that she needs to call.
(08:15):
So that not only is she well planned and specifically planned, butthe people, the phone numbers, all of that is teed up and ready to go.
That's next level planning.
That's planning with incredible intention, and again, life happens.
Best life plans, whatever.
However, we are something I can level up.
(08:37):
We are something I can show better tenacity, better courage, whatever.
We all have multiple things that we have to accomplish in our day.
We have multiple roles that we play in our lives, but being incredibly intentional about whatwe're doing, when we're doing it and how we're doing it transitions us from strive to thrive.
Let's talk about the head game, 'cause that seems a little more abstract.
(09:01):
Tenacity slash courage.
When we start in the business is just do the work.
Just do the work, show up in an attitude of gratitude.
Just do the work.
Just do the work, and that's great.
In the beginning for survival mode, it's often just about showing up.
Then the next level is showing up with some intention.
And allowing us to feel good for things like, Hey, I won a search.
(09:24):
I mean, honestly, there was a period of time where even after 15 years in the business, Iwas still excited that I actually won a search because it was so inconsistent in my world.
Now the next level is just getting to that emotional maturitywhere you can coach yourself, you can talk to yourself.
Not that we don't still need outside influences, but.
(09:45):
Hey, this is just part of the process.
I know I'm doing what I need to be doing.
I need to trust the process.
Almost we get so good in the thriving where we're not devoid of emotion 'cause thatI hope that never happens, but the impact just doesn't affect us like it used to.
What I hear a lot of with the head game is I love the idea of you keep thesurvivor mentality, keep the hunger, but we want to operate in a elevated sense.
(10:15):
We're still hungry.
Uh, we don't wanna be the lion that we just get up and wehaven't had a placement in, you know, a month or two months.
We wanna get up every day knowing, hey, I probably need to find food today.
But the other side of that, that next level side is these are some things in practice.
Part of this is, it's just.
Professional self-awareness.
Like most of us we're.
(10:35):
We're pretty good at checking in with ourselves, seeing how we'redoing as a human, all the things that give us pitfalls and blinders.
Also, we can have pitfalls and blinders on our desk and having a regular every week, everytwo weeks, once a month, whatever works best for you, but self-assessment of your desk.
Hey, if I was, you know, if I didn't know me and I was comingin and looking at my desk right now, what does it look like?
(11:01):
Is what I have going on, align with my goals, and I'll give you an um, an exercise you can do.
It's stupid simple.
Pull out your par.
Let's look at everything in your pipeline.
Write down every little thing what the fee could be.
So right now in your pipeline, you've got what lookslike could close over the next 90 days, about 75,000.
(11:24):
Okay, well, your goal a quarter is a hundred thousand and we never bat a hundred.
So usually.
If you're really good at this job or if you're decent,you're gonna close about 50% of what's on your desk.
If you're great, you might close 70, but we also know theproverbial poo could hit the fan at any time, and you close 30%.
(11:46):
Figure out those numbers.
What is it at 30%, 50%, and 70%?
It's just reality.
And I know people don't always like to look at the numbers that, you know, I used to jinx.
I don't wanna, I don't wanna talk a deal about a deal before it closed.
This isn't that.
This is professional maturity.
This is being a grownup.
Every business does forecasting.
We need to do it too.
But this is what you do when you're in a thrive mode.
(12:08):
You don't do it when you're in survival.
It's too defeat.
So instead, you know, sit down with your leader or manager or yourself, andon a regular basis, do a gut check of your desk with real numbers, real facts.
And then you can go, okay, I know how to adjust my behaviors.
You know, again, it's super, it's, it can be such a great tool because then youcan go back and say, you know, I've been, I've been patting myself on the back for having all these marketing calls and connects, but I haven't won a search.
(12:39):
So the survival slash striver.
Can feel good about making a lot of marketing calls, but my activity hasn'tbeen effective in netting results, so no more pats on the back for that.
I now can pat myself on the back when I send out a search assignmentcontract, so instead of patting myself on the back, like, oh, yay, look at me.
(13:01):
I made this many Vista calls this week.
Instead, it's, Hey, I, I sent out three proposals this week.
That really is what moves a needle.
Let me take it one step further.
And I'm going to spotlight and highlight the word courage a little bit.
When you think about courage in our desk, what makes you feel courageous?
I'll share.
For me, this may come as a surprise, but I actually don't like confrontation.
(13:25):
So now look, I'll bow up for my people.
I will confront for the people I love.
But when it comes to myself, my own world, those type of things, I don't like confrontation.
So anytime I have to have a confrontation, or if I need to ask a hardquestion or a question that I don't think I'm gonna like the answer, you know, like, Hey, what, what would make you not take this job?
(13:48):
That's a difference between a striver and a thriver is the striver just dances around it.
A thriver says a point blank.
Hey, I know you're excited.
I appreciate all that.
Thank you for sharing it.
But I'm just curious, what would make you not take this Anytime I have to do the pushback.
Yeah, that's always a tough one for me.
(14:10):
But do an audit of your desk over the next 30 days.
And look for one area where you feel like you can up your tenacity for your courage.
Just one.
Just one.
And again, this isn't about reinventing the wheel.
We're not reinventing ourselves, we are just leveling up.
(14:32):
But is one thing that you can do.
To take your tenacity or courage to the next level in your desk.
And then of course the idea would be you put that into practice as soonas you know what it's, I truly believe if y'all go through this with me and just these little bitty changes you're gonna see at transformation.
And I truly believe it's possible.
Popular Podcasts
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
Bleep! with Ana Navarro
Fear thrives in silence and confusion. Ana Navarro rejects both. Her voice is an antidote to today’s chaos. Her new podcast, Bleep! with Ana Navarro, takes on today’s most pressing issues with the voices most connected to it: decision-makers, political leaders, cultural shapers, and people on the frontlines of the story. The conversations acknowledge the emotions we all feel—despair, sadness, fear— but emerge with knowledge, perspective, and hope. The belief is simple: fearless dialogue can transform fear into courage, and courage into change. When fear dominates the headlines, this show digs deeper. Because information, debate, and conversation don’t just ease fear, they give us power to shape the future.
Hey Jonas!
Hey Jonas! The official Jonas Brothers podcast. Hosted by Kevin, Joe, and Nick Jonas. It’s the Jonas Brothers you know... musicians, actors, and well, yes, brothers. Now, they’re sharing another side of themselves in the playful, intimate, and irreverent way only they can. Spend time with the Jonas Brothers here and stay a little bit longer for deep conversations like never before.