Tessa White : Oklahoma City Pride, Queer Life in Hostile Environments, & Veteran Visibility

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hi, everyone. Welcome back to the Trans
Narrative Podcast. I'm Caroline.
And today I'm here with the one and only only Diana Pepsi,
Jordan Braxton. Hello.
Good morning. Good morning, beautiful.
How are you doing? I'm so good.
It's so good to have you here. Thank you for being here.
Thank you for asking me back. I'm I, I love coming on this
podcast. Well.
We love having you here, so thank you.

(00:21):
And today joining us, our very special guest, it's Tessa White.
Hello Tessa, How are you? Well, good morning, gorgeous
ladies. How are you doing?
I'm fine. Fine.
Thank you. Thanks for having me on.
Yes, absolutely. Thank you for being here.
So before we get started, a little bit about Tessa Pessa
White is a Marine Corps veteran,a retired detective surgeon from

(00:45):
the Seacoast region of New Hampshire, and a bold, outspoken
advocate for the LG for LGBTQ plus rights.
After transitioning A decade ago.
Upon returning to her birthplaceof Oklahoma, Pessa has immersed
herself in queer activism, serving on multiple nonprofit
boards and becoming a visible force for human rights in a
deeply conservative state. Now in her fifth year as

(01:06):
President of Oklahoma City Pride, Hesa leads with fierce
compassion and community vision.She is also the owner and
contractor of Twin City HVAC, Inc.
A proud parent to two sets of twins, and someone whose life is
grounded in love, justice, and the power of living
authentically. Hesa is unafraid to speak truth

(01:27):
to power, especially in confronting the cruelty and far
right policies targeting the trans community.
And she's recently experienced the wide the wild ride of going
viral on TikTok. Tessa, it's good to have you
here. Thank you for being here.
Well. Thank you.
I appreciate you so much. Welcome back to the Trans

(02:01):
Narrative podcast. I'm your Co host today, Diet of
Pepsi and we are here with a fabulous and wonderful Tessa
White. Hey, Tessa.
Hey thanks for having me. Thank you.
We are so honored that you're here today.
And I'm just going to get started with just a simple
little question. Just tell us something about
yourself and where you grew up and and how your childhood was

(02:25):
like. Sure, while I was born in
Oklahoma City and when I was three moved to Philly with my
mother, mom and dad divorced andmy mom ended up getting married
to an outlaw biker. And I can't even say the name of
the the club he was he was in onhere.

(02:46):
But that was my new stepdad. And I grew up in Philly, in
Northwest Philadelphia, and grewup in some pretty rough
neighborhoods. We moved to a place called
Norristown, PA, right on the outskirts of Philly.
And, you know, that's where I had my first real lesson in

(03:08):
diversity. And, you know, I've always grown
up in neighborhoods that are just full people of color.
I was always one of the, in my early years, one of the true
minorities. There's very few of us white
kids there. And it was just, Philly was just
such a wonderful place to grow up.

(03:30):
It was rough. I learned a lot of hard lessons
in Philly, but it was just just a wonderful place to grow up.
So I guess that's where being insuch a diverse city isn't Philly
the the city of brotherly Love? Yeah, it is.

(03:51):
It is. And it's funny, you know, I'm a
Gen. Xer, so I'm up there in years.
But I remember in like 7475, walking in a park with my
mother. Now my mother and I don't talk
anymore. I haven't talked to her since I
transitioned. She totally just like bagged out
on me. But I remember walking through a

(04:11):
park and there there was a black, white couple, black man
with a white woman. And I'll never forget the people
just like partying like the Red Sea to let this couple through
the awful comments I heard. And the one good thing that my
mother did for me is she pulled us off to the side and she said,
you see that? You see that couple, There's

(04:33):
nothing wrong with that. And these people are nothing but
assholes giving them a hard time.
And it's like, that was my introduction to what real racism
was back then. And as much as you know, I miss
my mom and I don't talk to her anymore, that is the one
wonderful gift she gave me is the gift of true diversity and

(04:54):
just, you know, pure love for everyone.
Yes, that sounds like a great story, and that's probably what
led you to your experience and shaped your perspective early on
in your childhood. Yeah, I mean, it really did.
It really did. And you know, all, all of my,
like I said, all of my playmates, everyone that we
lived around, you know, we were one of the few white people that

(05:17):
were there. And it's just funny thinking
back, you know, the color of theskin meant nothing back then
because we we were playing with our matchbox cars and hide and
go seek and just having fun watching professional wrestling
back in the day. It was just, it was just, it was
a wonderful experience. I I would not take that back for

(05:39):
anything in the world. Right.
And let me ask you this, how didyour upbringing influence the
path you took in the military and and law enforcement?
Well, you know, I graduated in 1985.
And back then my mother, it's funny, let me go into this.

(05:59):
So her second husband was an outlaw biker.
Her third husband was the Superior Court judge in
Montgomery County, Pennsylvania.And Oh my gosh, it was such a
swing of, of just everything in my life when he entered the
picture. And and he was a good man.

(06:20):
But the military, you know, my mother told me when I'm 18 years
old, I got to get out. They, you know, I didn't have
money for college. They certainly weren't going to
pay for it. So I was like, we're, I'm like,
girl, what are you going to do? And I, and I just said, well,
I'm going to go into the Marine Corps.

(06:40):
I looked at the four services, 5services and I'm like, no,
that's where I'm going to go. That's my proving ground and I'm
going to do it. And that's what they did.
That's awesome for people like me and some of our listeners.
Explain what is an outlaw biker?I'm intrigued what that means.
Well, you know, there's several outlaw biker clubs.

(07:04):
One of the most prominent would be like the Hell's Angels.
So yeah, there you go. And and you know, I'll never
forget his name is Ivan. And one of my friends did steal
a matchbox car out of my house. And we were all gathered at this

(07:25):
fighting place after school one day.
I was the one that wanted to fight this kid, George.
And right before the fight began, I pulled one of these,
oh, I think my mom's calling me for dinner.
And I turned around and ran off and Ivan was standing right
there to screen door and I ran right into him, fell on the

(07:46):
ground and he picked me up. He said, I don't know what you
have going on over there, but you finish what you started.
And, you know, that was probablyone of the most defining moments
in my whole life because I I went back and, you know, I had
to physically fight this, this guy, this kid.
And it was just such a defining moment.

(08:09):
And then, you know, and I won the fight.
But then whenever I came back, Ivan stopped me at the door.
He said, I saw everything. He said, I'm never going to
forget that you, you know, you tried to wimp out on that.
And he said, I don't want to hear another word about this.
I don't want to hear you bragging about it.
You did what you had to do now let it go.
And, you know, and that was another real defining moment for

(08:31):
me, too. What that's a great story
because, you know, we've all hadthose same experiences, you
know, and it sounds like you going back and, and fighting,
it's LED you to kind of where you are today and how it helped
you become a fighter in this movement and our trans movement

(08:53):
that we have. So kind of explain how you kind
of got involved in our our, our movement.
Well, you know, now we have to go back to when did I know I was
gay? When did I know I was trans?
And the gay thing was real easy,I think for most of it.
So I had a real easy thing to torealize when you are when you

(09:17):
identify that. But the trans thing was a little
more difficult. And I just always knew I was
different, you know, even as in,in my career as a police
officer, I just know it was different.
I wasn't like those other guys. I, I love to be around them,
love to hear them laugh, love tobe in their presence.

(09:40):
And, but I always knew it was different and I couldn't put my
finger on it, you know, And of course, everyone wants to give
their defining moment with, withbeing transgender, like with
playing with makeup. But I did that for years.
You know, I didn't look at that as a clear sign of me being

(10:01):
trans. But it's when I started getting
to be about 2425 in the Police Department, I met so many
transgender people, so many gay people, so many lesbians, and I
realized that that is where I belonged.
It was instantaneous. I belong with them.

(10:21):
And the whole trans thing just kind of, you know, it just
happens. And I look at it like this,
being trans, I didn't want to transition.
I am such a sensitive person to everything around me.
I didn't think I had, excuse me,I didn't think I had the balls

(10:42):
to do it. But I look at it like a freight
train going up the mountain. We're doing 2-3 miles an hour
our whole life up this huge mountain and it just gets to a
certain point in our age where you where you top the Crest of
that mountain. You realize about being trans,

(11:03):
you realize that there's these certain things about yourself
that you're never going to be able to change.
And now that freight train starts screaming down the other
side and I threw out every anchor I had.
I was like, no way, I'm not going to do this.
I can't transition. I was scared out of my mind.
But that train is just screamingdown that mountain anyway.

(11:24):
And there is no stopping in at that point.
And it was finally at one point I just said to myself, bitch,
this train is going where it's going.
And that's exactly what happened.
And you know, all of my life experiences just totally jumped
out front and center at that point, especially my police
career, especially seeing how awful trans women were were

(11:48):
treated by the police, seeing how our gay guys were ridiculed.
You know, all that came back. And you know, when you're a
square peg and you finally find that square peg hole to fit
into, it's just like everything in my life just lit right up.
And I no longer had to say to myself, you know, I am who I am

(12:12):
like I did 1000 times to make myself feel better.
I am who I am. I am who I am now.
It's just like I am with people that are just like me, you know?
And it's just my life lit up from there.
Right. I mean, I think that happens to
all of us, You know, when we have that moment where we just
say, you know, I'm a transition and forget what the rest of the

(12:33):
world says. Yep.
Because yes, our, our bodies andour minds take over and they're
like, look, you can come on withme girl.
It's time to time to transition.So, so I hear that you had, you
got a couple of sets of twins, ex-wife, you said you no longer

(12:54):
speak to your mom. How does your identity shape or
reshape your relationships you've had with your kids and
your ex-wife? Can you tell us a little bit
about that? Yeah, well, let's, let's start
with my kids. You know, I was miserable before

(13:14):
I was Moody. I hated who I was as a man.
And it was just, I just can't even tell you what a miserable
person I was. And my kids were starting to
feel that. And of course, the closer I got
to transition, the more Moody I became because I was, you know,

(13:34):
just really all these emotions going on.
And I actually have 5 kids. But my kids to this day are
like, you know, they call me dadand they're like, dad.
We didn't know how this was going to turn up.
But we love Tess, that we, we wish she would have shown up
years ago. So, you know, as far as, yeah,

(13:57):
as far as my kids go, they're sosupportive and it's been hard on
them. But I also remember when it
comes to the kids that I make itall about them and not make it
about me at that point. And of course, my ex-wife is my
very best friend. She is my #1 confidant.
I love her to pieces. I hated to lose her.

(14:20):
But you know, when you're gay, you're gay and and I'll never
forget this older trans woman said, you know, Tess, if you
don't get divorced, you're nevergoing to reach your full
potential. I was so mad at her for saying
that back in the day, but she was absolutely right.
If I would have stayed in that marriage, I would have never
reached my full potential. And but I have.

(14:43):
My ex-wife is my best friend. Love her to pieces.
And, you know, and I don't talk about this publicly anymore, but
my mom, I haven't talked to her in 10 years.
I have six brothers and sisters.There's only one of them that
I'm still in contact with. And most, most of my family in

(15:08):
Philadelphia, I hardly talk to him anymore.
My one brother and his wife havebeen really supportive and I
love them. But my new family and, and let's
just cut to the chase, my new family, the ones who love me,
the ones who care for me, the ones who pick me up when I fall
down, the ones who give me a shoulder to cry on are our LGBTQ

(15:31):
plus community. And you know, I may be left
behind 20 some odd family members, biological family
members. But like, seriously, how many
hundreds upon hundreds have I gained in the Oklahoma City gay
scene and throughout the whole country, really?
So, so where in in your timelinedid relocating back to Oklahoma

(15:56):
place? So you were so was your
experience the Marine Corps is out of 18.
Are you still in Philadelphia atthat time?
When when does that? So I get out of the Marine Corps
and then I was with Philly Police Department for one year.
And then I was a big snow skier at the time and I, I couldn't

(16:18):
stand where I was working. It's just, it was really hard to
work in a city like that. So I moved up to New Hampshire,
to the seacoast New Hampshire and got a job, got a cop job up
there. And you know, things kind of
came together at that point too.I within a year became the SWAT

(16:39):
police officer. Oh, yeah, I took a look at all
of my certificates the other day.
But you know, I was a sniper instructor, police sniper
instructor. I used to travel around the
country doing that. That is crazy.
Yeah, SWAT defensive tactics, advanced defensive tactics.
I'm a firearms instructor with just about every firearm known

(17:03):
in police services, including chemical munitions.
You know when you shoot tear gasinto a house?
I'm an instructor in that too. Remind me not to piss you off.
What a, what a, what a, what a, what a beautiful like that
really is. That's, that's really, that's a
lot of, I mean, you know, especially in the climate that
we're in today, like you really have a wealth of information

(17:26):
that that essentially like puts you as a step above for safety
because you're so aware and, and, and knowledgeable and so
many different things. How did that impact?
So how did at the time that you were in New Hampshire and on,
on, on all of those variety of things that you did, you
travelled the country where whatwas going on in the back of your
mind as far as you know, how youwere feeling was, was tested

(17:49):
there somewhere in the background as you were.
So tell me about that. Oh yeah, that bitch was lurking.
She was there and and I knew, I knew something was, was going on
with me. And I'm just like, I don't even
it's hard to put into words, butI knew, I just knew I was like,

(18:11):
there's something big on my horizon coming.
And again, it's my friendships that I made with trans people
along the way that I realized, you know, I'm looking in a
mirror right now, you know, as to who who I am.
And, you know, transitioning up in New Hampshire would have been

(18:34):
a hell of a lot easier than the move I made back to Oklahoma
City to transition. So I had already come out as
gay. And at the end of my police
career in 2009, you know, in NewHampshire, there wasn't a lot of
work anyway. So my ex-wife and I decided to

(18:55):
go ahead to move to Oklahoma. And because there's always work
here, you know, I grew up here in the summer times coming to
see my dad. So we showed up in Oklahoma and
it was a year after that, whenever I've really started to
go to the gay resort that we have in town, you know, used to

(19:19):
be on Craigslist every night. And then so I was real.
I was starting to like feel my way through and then in 2015, I,
I totally transitioned. And you know, when I came out
and saw the Oklahoma City gay scene, it was no time at all
before I fell head over heels inlove with our gay scene and

(19:42):
everyone that was in it. I remember coming to Oklahoma
City and performing at the Cabana House.
Yeah. Yes.
And Jacqueline Devereaux. I don't know if you know her.
I do. Yes.
She's my best friend. She's one of my best friends.
You've probably seen me performing in Oklahoma City.
That's probably why I look familiar to you.
That's where I know you from. You came with the T The T girl.

(20:04):
Weekends. Yes.
OK. Yeah, Hannah.
Yes. Yeah.
That's where I know you from, girl.
Oh. My God.
It's a small world, isn't it? Oh, it is such a small world,
and you know, it's funny. Speaking of Hannah, that's where
I kind of got my start. OK.
I got to know Hannah. I was on Fetlife, still on

(20:27):
Fetlife, but I got to know Hannah.
And the one thing I realized right away is that, you know,
whenever you were like back then, do you call it cross
dressing? I don't know.
But you get to a point where I just wanted to live as tests.
That's all I wanted to do. And it's like when you go to

(20:47):
the, the, the tea girl dinners of the tea girl weekends.
I just at first I felt really fake.
I felt super fake with it. And, and it was because it was
part time and I used to paint mynails, go to those weekends.
I would actually have tears in my eyes when I had to take it

(21:08):
off at the end of the weekend and I went to one of those
weekends and that was it, a transition right after that.
Yes, yeah. I can't do this shit part time.
Yes, I remember when, when I, when I did drag and you know, I
say I did drag, but I really never did drag.
I just got painted up like 3 times and it was each of those

(21:30):
times that were like a stepping stone a little bit further to,
to realizing because you know, Ifelt I felt so good presenting
as a female and a lot of my friends, I was at the bar and I
would say, hey, I was like, thisfeels really good.
It does. It does for all of us.

(21:53):
It just feels natural. It does.
And, and So what I and so and I,I told my friends, I said, hey,
listen, like this feels really good.
They're like, oh, you're, you'reexperiencing gender euphoria.
And I was like, oh, no way. I was like, what does that mean?
They're like you're, you're like, you're in a line.
I was like, oh, well, that's, that's, that's now that's
interesting. I said, that's so because I
thought to myself, I said, oh, you know, very concerning.

(22:15):
Like for me because I'm like, oh, this.
And so I explored and I kept going on.
I kept meeting wonderful people and people that have been on
this very show. And I remember getting out of
drag. Oh, we lost you.
You must equipped yourself mute.I'm right here.
Can you hear me? We lost you.

(22:39):
We lost you. I'm right here.
Can we hear me? Yeah, we can, yeah.
OK so sorry. Oh God I this is.
I hope I remember to edit this part out sometimes I you.
Know you got excited in your story.
That's that's beautiful. Sometimes they did.
Little mess ups happen because we get excited and passionate

(22:59):
about the story that we're telling.
Yeah, and so, and actually a matter of fact, I have a kazoo
because I used ChatGPT and for some reason I was, I was playing
with it and it got really like attached to kazoos for some
reason. And I was actually at a bar at
one of the drag shows in my veryearly beginnings of of finding
Caroline. It said Della pulled my balls at
Drag Queen Bingo. And Della was our first guest

(23:20):
ever on the show. Jordan, you met you.
Met. Yes, I met Della.
So, so basically the reason why I bring that up is because when
I finally came to terms with whoI was, it was because of my
experiences drag. And I was like, well, I felt
really good when I was in drag and you know, I said, I feel
like shit now. And then I thought to myself,
and there I was standing on the beach, South Carolina.

(23:41):
I said, well, you know, my friends tell me that when I was
in drag, it was gender euphoria.And then I was like, well, I
feel like shit outside of drag. And I was like, well, wait,
maybe it's not like all these things.
Maybe it's not because I'm like,you know, because of what my
step daddy said about me. Maybe it's not all these things.
Maybe maybe if I'm in drag presenting as a woman, it's
gender euphoria. Then I said, well, then the only
logical thing would would be that if outside of drag, I would

(24:05):
be experiencing gender dysphoria.
And it's like I dissociated in lifetime.
And I, I was born as Caroline, you know, And it was very
interesting how that came to be.And I and I just, I resonated
when you, when you had said that, you know, feeling coming
out of that was so it made you cry because I too cried when I
came out because I was like, this something's not, this

(24:27):
shouldn't be. I shouldn't be getting out of
this like, you know, yeah. And, you know, I distinctly
remember the first time getting dressed the first time, and I
was at the furthest hotel room you could be from where the Copa
is or the old Lita Lounge. And holy shit, now you're

(24:48):
talking to somebody that has, you know, ran head first in the
bar room fights. I've had people shoot at me, you
know, like I have been through some shit.
And I dressed up that day makeup, I had my wig on.
And girl, let me tell you, my heart was pounding out of my
chest. And I'll never forget, you know,

(25:10):
if you've ever been to the to the District hotel or resort in
Oklahoma, see there's some long ass concrete hallways there that
could be back in the day. They look really scary, but I
was like, little did I know, 10 years later, you know, there's
an Oklahoma City Pride banner hanging there with a note from

(25:31):
me to the hotel owners. Thank you for supporting us.
You know, and the involvement I would later have in that
community just totally blows my mind, especially, especially
with how scared I was that firstday.
I think we're all scared. I think we're all, I think we're
all scared the very first time because in my episode, I talked
about how I had an emotional breakdown in the parking lot of

(25:54):
a shopping mall here in Saint Louis because I didn't want to.
I didn't want to wear men's clothes anymore.
Yeah. Yes.
So now we all know we're all on this because we're outspoken
trans women. So what does it, what does it
mean to you to be an outspoken trans woman in this in this

(26:15):
well? Well I will say this, this past
year I finally decided to take the gloves off and say what the
hell is on my mind. I have sugar coated a lot of my
feelings especially with trans issues over the years to try to
get along with everyone and thisyear I'm just like Nope, I don't

(26:37):
give a shit when anybody thinks anymore I'm going to say how I
feel. And you know like the activism
part of it really kicked in whenever I saw how horrible
trans people were being. But I do totally have this story
to share which I think you'll understand why I've kind of

(26:59):
migrated into being who I am. I was out for like 2 months and
I was at tramps bar and there was a gay guy in there.
Sucker punch me, sucker punch meright in the side of the head.
My glasses went flying and it was just so funny how you know
when that shit happens. I dropped my clutch and just

(27:22):
went after this guy and you know, he got his ass handed to
him in front of about 150 peoplethat night.
And that's whenever that night is when I decided that was never
going to let that shit happen tome again.
That I was going to make sure tobe warm and welcoming to
everyone, but also let everyone know what my boundaries are and

(27:46):
that if a fool ever comes at me like that again, that we're
going to have the same ending result.
I'm just not going to put up with it because at the
beginning, whenever you first came out, in my eyes, I loved
everyone. I was so excited to be there.
And I, and I haven't lost that, but I was so excited to be
there. I was so excited to come out.

(28:07):
It was the most wonderful experience of my whole life.
And that guy that night like really jolted me into a
realistic state of mind as far as what I might be facing in the
future. And I decided at that point to
mold how I wanted to be, where Iwanted to go, how I wanted to be

(28:30):
viewed by everyone, make sure that respect and integrity was
always front and center. And that was another real
defining moment that particular night.
And I just, I haven't stopped from there.
You know, I love the trans community, but we have our
issues. We have our issues and there's a

(28:51):
lot of people or there are some in the trans community that will
take you down a wrong path lickety split.
And you got to watch it and you're going to make up your own
mind as far as like where you'regoing to go with all this stuff.
The trans community always said,oh, the gay guys are assholes.
Don't hang on the clubs, they'renot going to be nice to you. 99%

(29:13):
of my friends that I see every day are all gay men, the most
supportive people I've ever known in my whole life.
So, you know, it was just a lot of things about the trans
community that I had to equalizeand decide to go down my own
path. And that's what I did.
And, and I've never looked back from there.
Never. I, I resonate, I resonate a lot

(29:35):
with that because I've, as I, asI transitioned, of course, I, I
didn't have a grasp of where I was because I didn't think I was
allowed to be trans because I didn't, because I hear everybody
say what I knew since I was a child.
And so I was like, Oh, well, I didn't know that.
I like, I just thought I had a girl's voice, like, but I didn't

(29:55):
know that I didn't have the word.
So I didn't think that, you know, in my late 20s, I was
allowed to just come out and be like, Hey, I'm trans because I
didn't think I suffered like trans people did until I
explained my story to somebody and they were like, wow, that's
really sucked up. And it sounds like you suffered
a lot. And I was like, oh, I was like,
huh, maybe I am. And so learning, I, I, I had to

(30:16):
deconstruct so much after I learned because they're like
this idea. Even last night I saw a video.
Somebody was like, well, if you don't want to be misgendered,
then maybe like, you know, put alittle effort in and don't look
like a man. I was like, wow, I was, I was
like, hold on. I was like, I, I felt freedom in
myself when I realized that I didn't have to try to be like a

(30:37):
CIS woman. So I could just be Caroline.
And I've even gotten to the point where I don't even feel
like like even the word trans woman for me, like I understand
it's a descriptor to, to align me with, with my rights and with
my community, but it still feelsat one point I was like a trans
non binary woman. Like because this, I don't like
these labels. Like I'm just Caroline, like

(30:59):
that's my gender, you know, but like, how do you explain that to
somebody? Like it's just, you know, like
even all these terms and you have to do this and you have to
do that. And then there's a fraction of
the community that has a lot of money and they're like, well,
you, I did it in two years and look at me, you know, and then
why can't you? And it's like, well, hi, I'm
poor. So like it's a little different.
And so the transitioning and allof these things, it's like, I, I

(31:22):
had to learn to just stop listening to other people.
Not just because like we're marginalized doesn't mean
everybody knows what they're talking about.
And a lot of it is just influenced by trauma.
Most of our responses are just because of our trauma.
Like because of our trauma and how we're reacting to it.
Caroline, you just be you. Fuck what everybody else says.
Yes, you've been to that. Be you.
They are. Let me tell you all this, that

(31:43):
I'm going to say this with all the Christian love I can muster.
Sometimes trans women are a bunch of bitches.
Yes, I mean, we are because lookand look at this podcast that we
have right here. I am a fool.
I consider myself, I don't consider myself a trans woman.
I consider myself a woman. I just consider myself.

(32:06):
The only reason I checked trans women on forms is to make sure
that our data is collected and we can be included in things for
medical reasons. You know, because if we don't,
then trans women will never get the programs and services that
we need. But I don't consider myself a
trans woman. I just consider myself a woman

(32:26):
because I've always felt like a woman.
I never. I've always felt feminine so I
didn't. I don't feel like I'm trying to
be feminine. Femininity radiates from me.
So that's why I can embrace my masculine side because it
doesn't take away because I radiate the femininity.
I just, I just feel that. It's our pheromones.
You know, I'm going to say something probably really,

(32:47):
really politically incorrect. You look, if you look like fish,
smell like fish, you are fish, OK?
You're not supposed to say the word fish anymore either, but we
use it here all the time, you know?
Yeah, and you know what? I hate those labels.
And all those terms, What does fish even mean?
Like I don't even I'm so I don'teven know all this.
You know, girl, I can. We don't have to have an episode

(33:09):
all about terminology. Oh, you're not kidding.
And how it's how it's changed because fish just means fish
means real woman. Well that's like oh cuz fish
like stink. OK, well.
Not that, but we've got to edit that part out or we're going to

(33:30):
get no, it just, it just means tuna, you know, fish, real tuna,
wheat. It's you know, but I never found
that offensive. And sometimes I tell, I tell
people this when I talk to younggirls about transitioning and
trying to. And you can't say passable
either. Lord, that's a bad word too.
You can't say passable. I say I feel like a woman and

(33:54):
try my best to be a woman because for me it's a matter of
safety. It comes from a place of safety.
Because when I was growing up, if you didn't look passable, you
couldn't hang out with all the other trans girls because they
didn't want to get clocked and have to fight every time in

(34:16):
public. So it's a thing of safety.
It doesn't. I'm not gender policing you.
It comes from a place of safety because now people are, because
this is Trump's America. People feel emboldened that they
can run up on you, suck a punch,you call you trash, burn your
shit down, talk to you any kind of way.

(34:38):
And I'm like, Tessa, you steppedme wrong.
You don't get a different kind of talking to.
I'm almost going to say the shitkicks out of your ass.
But you know what though? Like that was the biggest
problem I had whenever I first came out as trans is the the

(34:59):
whole passing, non passing thing.
And then you weren't supposed tosay passing.
You have to say blending man. And it took me about two years
and I'm like, you know what, fuck all this shit.
I don't have to pass. But I understand and I
appreciate those, especially some of the Gen.
Xers and some of the older transgirls like me.

(35:21):
The safety part of it, like you just mentioned, Jordan.
But I got to tell you what, likeI knew when I came out, there
was no passing. There was no passing.
I took voice lessons at the VAI,did all that bullshit, and I was
like, no, I'm going to be a recognizable, visible trans
female and I'm not holding back.But so many of the other trans

(35:44):
girls were like, oh, you can't do that.
You got to try harder, girl. You need to lose more weight.
You need to do this and you needto do that.
And whenever I finally was like,you know what, get your essence
away from me. I have my own Rd. that I'm going
down my path. This is Tessa's road and I never
look back. No, no, no, not to people.

(36:06):
They're so being being like likegenders on the spectrum.
So it's trans trans on the spectrum.
Yes, we go all the way from trans masculine all the way to
trans feminine. We got non binary trans.
We're just here. We're just trans people
existing, you know? Yeah, So that's what, you know,

(36:27):
We got to shut the fuck up and just let each other live 0.
My God, seriously, Because yes, because you know what, I hate to
say this, but I feel like this constant like, oh, you can't do
this and you can't do that not just in the trans community, but
in general in the last 10 years of oh, well, that's not
politically or this or that. It's like, you know, a part of
that is like where I feel like, like that's where some of like,

(36:49):
that's why how Trump got electedwas the fact that we've policed
people to the point where it's like, you know, they're like,
oh, well, we, we're going to go with this guy who just like
doesn't give a crap. Like we're just kind of taught
like, and you know, and it sucksbecause it's like this constant
policing and enforcement of, oh,you can't say this.
You can't say that. It's led to the culture now
where people are like, hey, fuckyou.
Like, I don't care. Like stop telling us what to do

(37:11):
and what not. And and it becomes difficult
because like, it's just it's, it's, it's.
Right. But I still say, I still say we
got to respect each other. Not to respect each other.
That's just, it's just this kindof like we all just need to take
a seat, everybody, everybody andjust like, just like hold on.
Like why can't we just like respect each other and just

(37:32):
chill and like people don't haveto do everything a certain way
just because you transition thisway or you get it that way?
Each each transition is different.
Everyone's journey is unique, and that's what.
We're all like little snowflakes, individual.
The one thing that irritates theliving shit out of me though,
and I and I know beautiful passing trans women who are some

(37:57):
of the best human beings I've ever met, but that's the
division is the pretty trans girls, the passing ones and the
non passing ones. And you know, what a lot of
people don't understand is the non passing is a majority of the
trans community. And you know, and I'm like, I
found out through the years thatthe passing trans girls, the

(38:19):
fish, if you will, or whatever they call themselves, you know,
they have their own little chat groups.
They go out together when they see a non passing person like me
at the clubs, like they kind of snub you put their hand up and
walk past. And it's like, and, and I got to
tell you what, I've even had a couple of those girls come up to
me and be like, how did you get to be president of Oklahoma City

(38:43):
Pride? What makes you so special to do
it? And I know they're riding me up
and down. And I'm like bitch, personality,
being warm and friendly and confidence is what is going to
carry you through, not your looks.
You know you. Yeah, your, your looks are going
to get your foot in the door. But as soon as you open your

(39:04):
mouth, there you go. You're back out that door.
You know, like you need to be warm, friendly, confident and
just like, love who you are and love the people around us.
And yeah, I get real frustrated.I've been frustrated with the
trans community for years. There's some girls here in
Oklahoma City. I can't wait to see them again

(39:25):
in person because, oh, we're going to have a lot to talk
about. But you know, it's like, but I
do no matter what happens, support the trans community are
lesbians are gays, support them 100%.
But you know, I'm so sick of this shit.
And just like you were saying, Jordan, you, you presented you
identify yourself as woman. I'm totally trans woman, totally

(39:48):
and that. I love that.
Just Caroline. You see, look, we got we got a
trans woman, a woman, and I'm just Caroline, but that, but
that right here, this representsthe whole beauty that it is the
trans community. That's why we can, we can all
disagree. We can all look different, but

(40:11):
it's the community there that webuild.
And the community that we, that we and we just got to stop this
infighting. It's bad enough that we fight
amongst each other and the transcommunity and then we have to
fight the gay man because, you know, and then we have to fight
the gay man and then we have to fight society.
So we have to fight each other. The other people in our, I

(40:32):
shouldn't say gay men, but rightnow they're really pissing me
off because they're not standingup with us when we need them to.
Yeah, yes, that's a whole. Book and we're about to
celebrate pride and we're about to celebrate pride and I
guarantee you that training people are not going to be
recognized for being like a pivotal role in in all and
helping this country recognize like pride guarantee.

(40:54):
And right now not in. Oklahoma City.
Right. But I know right now I think
trans people of the trans communities front and center
because we're getting shit on every single day.
I told my therapist this the other day.
I said, you know what? I just want to go one day
without hearing the word transgender.
That's my God, yes. And I said I'm not.

(41:15):
It's not that I'm ashamed of being trans.
I've heard it everywhere I turn around, I hear how bad trans is.
I just want them to leave me alone for a day. 24 hours.
We've been hearing this shit since what, August of last year?
Every single day. Every day.
Every day it's a lot. You no trans in the military,

(41:38):
you can't be trans. This you can't do that.
You can't get Medicaid, you can't get your pharmacare, you
can't get surgeries. So just leave, just for one day,
leave me alone. That's all I want.
I know, and you and you, but I wanted to touch on something you
said too, like the the trans girls that I've known.
We had a girl here in Oklahoma City that she actually ran for

(42:02):
Congress, absolutely drop dead gorgeous, came out as trans.
Like, I don't know, five years before she actually
detransitioned. She ends up going to church,
makes this big video about how being transgender is a farce and
it's it's totally decision. She has her breast implants cut

(42:23):
out and has him in a Ziploc bag on Facebook announcing her
detransition. And you know, all of my gay
friends sit around and they're like, well-being trans isn't a
choice. Then how is she deciding to
detransition? How how is this happening?
And we've had several girls in Oklahoma City detransition.

(42:46):
And I'm like, sometimes The trans community certainly adds
fuel to that fire when things like this happen, you know?
But there are also a lot of gay guys who supposedly have degayed
themselves or however you want to say it.
Right. You know, but I'm just saying
it's like, I don't know, I my experience with the gay guys

(43:09):
after I told you about the one that sucker punched me.
But I've had my battles with those assholes, but they're very
far and few between and and I dosee where a lot of gay guys do
support. But you know, you're right in
one aspect. They don't really get out there
and hit the streets for us. Yes, they're going to support us
at the bar. They're going to support us
online. At a distance, yeah, but I.

(43:32):
Don't. I don't see them hitting the
streets. And yeah.
Yeah, because this is what I sayto them.
When you needed me during the AIDS crisis, I was here.
When you needed me doing Don't ask, don't tell, I was here.
When you needed me during marriage equality, I was here.
Now that I need you, you are radio silent.
Oh, so yeah. That's what you know, and then

(43:55):
you were talking about being president of Oklahoma City
Pride. I'm on the board here of Pride
Saint Louis. Yes, I'm also on the board of
United United States Associationof Prides.
I'm the director of I run the diversity and inclusion
committee. So I I love the connection of,

(44:18):
of prides and what pride stand for.
So how did you become the president of Oklahoma City Pride
and what does that role mean to you?
Oh girl, everything of mine has a freaking story to it.
So OKC Pride kind of reorganizedback in 2020 and they were doing

(44:39):
that. We were having a community
meeting and voting was taking place to get voted into
positions there. And a good friend of mine said,
hey, you're going to be there, right?
You're going to be there. I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll
be there. But I didn't want to be there.
I knew how much work it was going to be.
I knew how my life is going to be turned upside down with with

(45:03):
all the the trials and tribulations of belonging to a
private organization. So I went and hit one of the
bars that night. And then I get a text and
they're like, well, you weren't here, but we voted you in as
vice president anyway. So I was like, damn it.
Heck, are you fucking kidding me?

(45:25):
So it just, so has has it just so have it that the president at
the time, he only lasted for a couple months.
He was a great guy, but he only lasted for a couple months.
And then I took over the president's job right after that
and got voted in as president two months after I got voted in

(45:45):
his vice. And then I've been president
ever since then. So this is my fifth year, and I
swore every single year. This is my last year.
And every single year I still find my nasty ass.
Still. Still.
We all say the same thing girl. I've said you know what, fuck
that. Bored.
I'm not doing it. I'm tired because I also do PR

(46:07):
and, you know, I'm on the news talking about stuff all the
time. And then, you know, like we said
before, we have people in our own community that hate pride
organizations, you know, So, yeah, so I, I, they've doxed me.
They put my name and e-mail and phone number and address all out
in the public. So fucked up.
I know. And I'm like, why do y'all do

(46:29):
that when I first of all, I'm a trans woman who with a target on
my back already. Yeah, so now y'all just told
people where I am. But first of all, I always tell
people this. I wish they would.
I wish somebody would step to me.
Bring it I. Always bring it.
Just bring it, you know, So it'sjust, to me, it's just it's, I

(46:52):
forgot where I was going with this.
Damn it. This happens when you get old,
you know you start on a point. But I want to go with what you
were saying, like the enemies that I have made and you're
looking at somebody who really loves everyone and the enemies I
have made, the gay guys bitch pissing, the moaning every now
and then saying that I speak forthe community.

(47:15):
Well, you know what, there is noapplication for community
leader. It just, it just happens
whenever you're ready. And you know, with the prior
organization, we volunteer that time.
Like, that is a big sacrifice toall of us.
And I don't even know, like, howI've made such enemies.
But if you don't include this person in a drag show, now they

(47:38):
hate you. If you didn't vote somebody onto
the board, now they hate you. Like that kind of stuff.
To the thing they hate you if you don't March down the right
street, they hate you, yes. But I know my point was I say
that every year about I'm not going to be on this board, girl,
25 years later, I'm still on theboard. 25 years, holy shit.

(48:03):
I've been involved with Price and Lewis since I was Miss Gay
Missouri, which was in 1991. Wow, that's incredible.
Well, congratulations to you. Well, thank you.
I just, it's something about pride that just gets in your
blood and you can't get it out. Oh, you're like, can I get a
transfusion please? And, you know, and I want to be

(48:26):
done now, but then we have 39 years our, our gay district
district is called 39th St. gay district.
Next year is 39 years of our pride on 39th St.
So it's like, girl, there's not going anywhere.
But yeah. But absolutely, I, so I, I, I
want to ask, you know, because we did touch on a few things

(48:47):
here that I feel were there was there, there's a lot of
infighting and I and I and I andI want to be careful on how we
approach that because, you know,I don't want to be alienating.
I don't, I don't want, I don't want to create.
It means, you know, and it's, and it's like a tiger.
It's like walking in tightrope, you know, how to balance,
especially being in the public light and, you know, being on,
on the board of prides and, and,and podcasting and, and so, you

(49:11):
know, how do we actually combat,you know, this, this infighting
with our community? How do we, how do we actually
address these in, in productive ways that move us forward and
don't just keep us in this space?
How do we actually address, you know, because, because it's one
thing to talk about, you know, the things of the passing and,
and the things that we've talkedabout, but how do we actually

(49:32):
make a difference and, and improve upon that?
Well, and you know what, in my opinion, we're not always going
to be able to, you know, not allof us are going to agree all the
time. And I agree, you know, having a
podcast, being with a pride organization for 25 years, holy
shit. And you know, with what I do,

(49:53):
you know, trans people become big symbols just by being trans.
But I always remember big symbol, big target.
If you're a big symbol in this world, there's always a target
on your back. And, you know, like there is
common ground that all trans people, I think can find.
But quite frankly, there's some trans people that in, in my

(50:14):
opinion, you know, like I've listened to their opinions.
They've tried to sway me as to how I'm supposed to live my
life. I reject that.
And I just, you know, I don't even know how to say this.
I am to the point where some people just need to fade out in
my life and let me do my thing and they can go push their

(50:35):
opinions on whoever they want. But you know, 10 years into
this, I know who I am. Right.
You know there's good. And what I try to do, and I
think what you try to do, Carolyn, and what you try to do,
Jordan, is we just try to be positive for the community.
Don't instill fear. Show people, don't tell them how

(50:57):
to live their lives. Show them how you live your life
and how successful it's been foryou.
Exactly. That's exactly because we're
going to kind of pivot into our advocacy work.
This is what I tell people I like.
Caroline, you say, how do we bridge those those gaps?

(51:17):
Well, first you try. You really try.
And then you have to realize, well, this person's opinion is
never going to change. So that's wasted energy to me.
To me, that's wasted energy. If I've listened to you and
you've listened to me and you still want to come at me, then
it's OK because you know what? You are going to be

(51:39):
insignificant to my success because I'm going to keep going
no matter what. You know, I do.
And we all do a lot of advocacy work.
And I do advocacy work for people who don't think they have
a voice because a lot of people,it takes a lot, it takes a lot
of balls to get up and stand in front of legislator because

(52:02):
Oklahoma's red state, Missouri'sa red state.
Caroline, you're in Florida. I forgot where you, where are
you? Indiana?
Oh, you're, we're all in red states.
OK. We're all in red states.
So it's hard to get in front of senators and congressmen who
think you're a piece of shit. It it takes a lot of that.

(52:24):
So I think we, I think I'm goingto do this because I want my
trans siblings to know there's someone in their corners who
knows someone's fighting to themto let them know, even though
you don't have a voice. I'm going to use my privilege.
And we all have to know that we have different levels of
privilege. I'm going to use my privilege to

(52:44):
ensure you get what you want anddeserve and make sure I protect
your rights. Yeah, absolutely.
Because that's very important. Because I want my rights to be
your rights. I don't know.
I don't do this so that Jordan Braxton can do this.
I do this so everybody can do this.
I completely agree. And so see about that.

(53:07):
Let's talk about Kerry advocacy work for a moment.
What drew you into advocacy work?
Well, and again, it's like whenever I broke onto the scene,
what do they say? A career?
A person No, you don't pick a career a.
Career pick to you. Right.
And I think that's what happenedto me.

(53:29):
And, you know, as far as nonprofits go, I know I
immediately joined PFLAG, eventually became vice president
of Oklahoma City PFLAG. There was three or four other
nonprofits that I joined, like Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence.
Yes, the Oklahoma City Business Association.
You know, there was a few of them and it just kind of

(53:53):
progressed. It was just like that was PFLAG
was one step, another nonprofit was another step.
Then all of a sudden, like getting up and publicly speaking
at rallies and being invited to speaking events.
And, you know, and then OklahomaCity Pride, and I'll tell you
what, once I hit the Oklahoma City Pride plateau, it was just

(54:13):
a straight trajectory right to the moon from there.
You know, it just hasn't stopped.
And, you know, one thing that wefound out in Oklahoma is that
having Republican, not MAGA, butRepublican friends at the state
Capitol, the ones who do help usout, especially, you know, with

(54:36):
it, with legislation that's justbeen introduced, they help to
get a lot of bills killed. We have always made sure to
distinguish between the Magas and these Republicans.
I speak up because I don't want to inaliate them, but those
people have helped us out a lot.Going to the capital and

(54:58):
Speaking of those legislators intheir office and, and getting
face to face with them, sharing life experience, you know,
bitch, just see that I'm just trying to live my life and I'm
no different than you. You know, back before I
transitioned, you would have heralded me the hero being in
the Marines or a police officer.But now that I've transitioned

(55:20):
on this mental, mentally ill piece of shit that doesn't
deserve any of your attention. Well, we're going to change
that, right? So it's just really LED into so
many different avenues. And, you know, by far my
favorite is rallies. I love going to rallies.
I love to get up there and speak.

(55:41):
I love to yell and scream and make my my war sign, I call it.
But, you know, I realized those rallies, as important as they
were for us to see each other, weren't getting us anywhere with
them. What's getting us somewhere is
going in and speaking to these legislators, in my humble
opinion anyway. But the rallies are important to

(56:02):
me because you know what it doesand rallies people together.
It it, it also lets people know who's in the community, who your
supporters are. And it also lets people feel
like they're doing. Something.
Yeah, it. Does rallies make people feel
like doing so? I I, when I speak at rallies, I
see all you people around here. It's beautiful to see you at

(56:25):
rallies. But you know where I need to see
you? At the voting booth.
Yeah, that's. How about that shit?
We need to see you at the votingbooth.
We need to turn our voices into votes.
We do. Yes, we need to turn our voices
into votes, you know. And you know, I have one
observation 2 at a rally that I went to last year, 10 years ago,

(56:47):
you know, all of us trans bitches, we knew each other and
the trans guys, non binary people, we knew each other.
And 10 years ago I knew every single person at those rallies.
And I went to another one last year and I like had to look for
somebody that I knew because there was so many 19202122 year

(57:07):
olds that were there, the younger kids that were there.
So especially in that particularcase, I'm so glad that I went
because I got to see how the trans community is really
transforming right now, right? There's a big difference between
what it used to look like and what it looks like now.
Yes, cuz we cuz you know, we older trans women, you know, cuz

(57:29):
I'm 64. Wow.
Yes, I know. I think I look good for 64.
You look smoking hot. So I think because I know a lot
of older trans women who had surgeries and everything and
they're just content on being like they say to me, girl, when
are you going to sit down? I'm like, I'm never going to sit

(57:50):
down. I am out here fighting because I
think it's important and I, I don't shit on them.
I don't berate them. I'm like, OK, girl, you, you can
sit down. You can drink the lemonade while
I'm out here fighting. And I love you for it.
And I think that's the thing, I like going to rallies because
again, it brings community together and makes people think
they're part of the process, youknow?

(58:14):
And I I just always and it helpsbuild relationships.
Oh, so does. It helps build relationships and
I invite our elected officials to our rallies because I think
when you invite elected officials, it show you who your
supporters are and who your non supporters are.

(58:35):
Yeah. So, you know, and then it's
that's we've kind of kind of gotan off topic here, but.
This. I love it.
This is beautiful. This is this, which we said the
whole podcast is about, is aboutconversations.
But I want to hear more about Tessa.
And, like, what do you want our listeners to understand about

(58:56):
the political climate in Oklahoma and the attacks on
trans people there? Well look, we can wallow in
misery if we choose, and I just cannot.
I won't do it. I won't.
I have done it, but I refuse to do it anymore.
I refuse to be scared or to go on the defensive with this shit.

(59:21):
I think the best defense is an even stronger offense.
But the problem is trans community, We've made a lot of
missteps in the past years, and we need to be smarter about the
way we go forward. And I think one of those ways is
to, to do exactly like I said, to get in there, meet with those

(59:44):
legislators, let them get to know you, watch what you say on
social media so you don't alienate the wrong people.
And the other thing is, you know, we, we have got to
remember the good outweighs the bad by far that these asshole

(01:00:04):
politicians out there, these MAGA people are not the majority
with these people with, with thepoliticians that are out there.
So just like in Oklahoma, we have 5 or 6 of them that are
always bringing the anti trans, anti-gay legislation forward
always. And just remember, concentrate

(01:00:28):
on the good ones out there. Now, the political climate with
the present administration, the presidential administration, if
that's even what you want to call it.
You know what? Like seriously, I wouldn't give
a pint of piss for any of them, none of them.
And I am never going to forget this is this is what I'm keeping

(01:00:48):
inside for me. I'm never going to forget the
hate that they've thrown in our direction.
I'm never going to forget the trans people who have been
murdered because of their hate, because of this false narrative
that we have. I am never going to forget being
scared to come back into the country after I went on vacation

(01:01:11):
not knowing what was going to happen.
And this ship will right itself one day.
But I'll tell you what, these asshole politicians that are out
there poking and prodding at us all the time, their days come in
and Clara is 1 hell of a bitch to deal with.
And I'm going to be right there standing on my mountaintop

(01:01:31):
looking down on those bitches and being like, I am never going
to forget how you treated me andyou're going to get it back,
honey. Yes, I I I hear your sister
because I feel the same way. Yeah, but I'm not going to
forget because one day you're going to need my vote for
something. Oh yeah, yeah, you're.
Going to need my vote for something and and you're not

(01:01:52):
going to get it so I just got a couple more questions for you.
Some of these you've already answered, so I.
Say so I actually, so I actually, I, I, I wanted to say
that, you know, I, I think that even in the midst of this
hostile political takeover, government takeover, I, I still

(01:02:15):
think that, that there are privileges that, that we have.
And, and I recognize how far we have come.
And, and it may not seem like it, but, but, you know, I think
back to, to our sisters and brothers and, and siblings
before in, in the life that theyhave to live, you know, in the,

(01:02:36):
in the late 1900s, sorry, and, and, and the struggles and, and
I think back to, to, to what it took to get here today.
And, and I think about, you know, the, the community and,
and the strength that we all have and I and I and I, and
that's something to that I did take pride in because I think

(01:02:58):
that, you know, we as humans, well, we're always fighting for
our rights. And, and I think just to be a
part of that lineage of, of, of,of sibling hood, of, of all
those that come before is this is a beautiful thing to be a
part of. And, and, and so now here we are
Pride Month. And because this is when the

(01:03:18):
recording is in Pride month, so we're here.
And so what's going on this year?
What are we, what is what, what's going on in Oklahoma City
Pride? How, how are you handling the
hostile political government that we're experiencing now?
How does that combat with pride?Are you still going forward?
Well, it's funny, they just put a basically another anti drag

(01:03:43):
law in there claiming that drag shows were obscene material.
And I did a few news interviews on this.
I'm like, you know what, we're going to still have our drag
shows and if you need to come and arrest somebody, you come
and arrest me. Bring it because we are not
going to stop this. This law that they passed has

(01:04:04):
absolutely no teeth at all. But what we're doing and you
know, whenever we have huge political problems, especially
anti-gay, anti trans legislation, pride events end up
exploding with participation, right?
So we have 18 bands and DJs thatare playing throughout our, our

(01:04:26):
three day event. We're going to have a foam
party. We're going to have male dancers
that are going to be appropriately addressed in
certain parts of the, the festival after 10:00 PM at
night. And basically, you know, we're
just not paying any attention toit.
I am. So it's just like bad comments

(01:04:47):
on on, on TikTok, those shitty comments, I forced myself to
read those comments until I'm numb to them.
It's with this political agenda I've listened to so much, we all
have of their bullshit that I amnow numb to it.
And you know what? I really believe this.
Some of this stuff's only going to be settled by court order.

(01:05:09):
And if it takes somebody gettingarrested, I lead this
organization and you arrest my ass and let's go.
Because otherwise I'm just, I'm done dealing with their shit,
done with it. I troll.
I troll comments on Facebook. That's my entertainment.
Yeah, I love that. That's my entertainment.
You. I read the comments and some of

(01:05:30):
them, they're fucking horrible. But I picked the one MAGA that
I'm like, oh, this person let mejust put a comment on here.
And sometimes you had to say simple things like trans rights
to human rights. Then they get going.
Then I'm like, yes, but you knowwhat?
Always MAGA, if you hit them with facts, they, their head
will explode because they don't know what to do with facts.

(01:05:51):
No, yes, they don't know what todo with facts and then they
reject facts. Yes, they reject facts.
And then this is how I know I'vewon when they go, I was arguing
with a woman just the other day.She goes, well, I looked at your
Facebook page and I can tell you're a man because I can see
your, I can see your Adam's apple.
First of all, I've never had an Adam's apple my entire life.

(01:06:12):
And that's when you know you've got not a backed up.
When they run out of shit to say, when they start, like,
well, you're a man. Oh, OK, so now you know I got
you because you run. You run out of things to say.
So yeah, I'm like you. I love reading the comments I
do. What's your experience been
like, you know, with with your, with your TikTok?

(01:06:32):
Obviously that's where you and Imet.
We met each other on TikTok. So yeah, we did.
How has that experience been? I have no idea what it's like to
split on TikTok because nobody follows us on TikTok.
Sorry. That was, you know, I had one
video that hit whenever we took a trip down to Galveston and
that one went super viral. And I just like, I could go on

(01:06:55):
and on about this, but the one thing I am going to point out
about TikTok is holy shit that we have some wonderful people
there. And, and we definitely have like
such a cool trans community. And, and The thing is there's
like so many different directions these people could go
in so many different TikTok profiles they can visit.

(01:07:15):
I seem to realize that you have a lot of people that you jive
with that kind of become your friends on TikTok.
And absolutely, it has been so rewarding.
I have made so many friends there already.
And you know it. It does change your perspective,
like seeing yourself on camera almost every day.

(01:07:38):
You know, the first thing was Caroline was dealing with the
potential haters that are on there.
And I was like, OK, I like to have control of my life.
I didn't think I wanted to deal with the haters, but that's what
I do. It's like listening to a sad
song that makes you sad. I will put those bitches on my

(01:07:59):
playlist and I will. Play a lot of sad songs.
Iris, sorry, yeah, but I'll keepplaying those sad songs until I
reform them as my own. And and when it comes to those
comments on TikTok, it has really shown me how ignorant,
how hateful and how spiteful thehaters are.

(01:08:25):
And all I can say is with most of them that get in there and
make nasty comments that it is obvious they don't like their
own life either. So but.
They're jealous, I said. You know, they're just jealous
because they can't. They're jealous as hell because
they can't like us. Well, a lot of times I feel
like, you know, not to get like,you know, psychological, but I

(01:08:46):
feel like it's kind of this, this thought that like people
think of politics as they think of the of sports.
You know, they watch MMA, they watch, they watch football.
They're like like Democrats, Republicans, like, oh, we're
going to beat you, you know, andthen they see trains people and
they're like, oh, there you go. Try.
You're just trying to piss us off.
You're just trying to beat. You're just trying to push it.
Like that's how I feel a lot of people see it is they just see,

(01:09:10):
they see it as an antagonistic. And it's like, you know, and
that's why that's why I've crew,you know, that's why I love this
platform in this show, because we just sit here and we listen
to each other and we just talk and, and, and, and, and that's
just out there in the world and people, they just get to hear
our stories. They just get to hear our lives
and and, and, and I hope that itbegins to break down, you know,

(01:09:33):
this this, I'm hopeful that it breaks down these barriers and
this. Is why I love being on this
podcast with you, Carolina, and thank you doing it because This
is why I tell a lot of activist people is that you can give them
all kind of stats. You can have all kind of doctors
and therapists go and talk to the senators.
That doesn't mean to heal the beans because like Tessa said,

(01:09:55):
they don't give a fuck a flying fuck about stats.
The only way we're going to change this is by human
narrative. We.
Got we got to start bringing people to these legislators to
these advocacy day and let them tell their story.
See you face to face. How dare you.

(01:10:15):
I'm going to sit in front of you, Senator XXX, and I want you
to tell my to my face what a piece of shit you think I am.
Yeah, you know, and see if you have that same venom as you have
when you're in your office beinga keyboard warrior.
Yeah, exactly. Yes.
So I think that's to to move ourmovement forward and to get, I

(01:10:37):
hate to worry more acceptance, but to get the laws overturned
or stopped, we're going to have to start being present with our
life experiences and our narratives.
And I think that is so important.
And here here's why. When it comes to us showing the

(01:10:59):
world how we live our lives, hey, face it, we're in we're in
the age of social media, right? But legitimately don't be
something you're not on social media.
You, you be who you are and justdocument who you are.
And you know, when the rest of the world starts to see that
their bullshit laws are not going to keep me off the streets

(01:11:20):
or you or Caroline, and to show that confidence and to have
those friends out there and those connections and let the
world see us living our lives, want to bash by any of their
bullshit, I think gives us more mileage than anything else.

(01:11:40):
I really do. That's why I tell people there's
no amount of shit that you can talk on me legislating.
You write about me that will ever take away my trans joy.
Yeah. Absolutely nothing.
Nothing. There's nothing you can do.
And especially now that I had surgery, please, you can't tell
me nothing. Absolutely.

(01:12:00):
You know, I Speaking of joy, this this whole conversation has
been a joy and I really enjoyed this, you know, this this
morning with you being here withyou, Tessa, with with you,
Jordan. And as we begin to wrap up, I'd
like to just thank our audience for being here, here every week,
week after week. We've been here since we've

(01:12:22):
we've been here every week almost this year.
And we're going to be here and it's, and it's just a, it's a
pleasure to to have you tune in every week.
So audience, thank you for giving us your time, giving us
your attention and being here and listening and, and helping
us shift the trans narrative and.
And share the podcast. Absolutely, that's right.
Please, please share and like and, and, and, and, and help us

(01:12:46):
get get these stories out there because these stories make a
difference. And if you'd like to Share your
story, please e-mail us at transnarrativepodcast@gmail.com.
That's transnarrativepodcast@gmail.com.
And get you on the show just like we did here with Tessa.
And maybe you'll see me on TikTok.
I'll leave you a comment or you will have already done that.

(01:13:07):
I have, you know, I have TikTok.I've been on TikTok for a year,
have never made one tick. Tock video.
I went, I went four years without a tick tock and bank
without. I went four years not making a
tick tock and then it got bannedback in January.
I cried a little bit and I made a TikTok before a day and and
then it came back up and I was like, oh crap.
I promised to make videos if I if it came back and it did.

(01:13:30):
So as we begin to wrap up, I, I,I want to ask Tessa, where can
our audience find your work? Is there a website?
What, what's your link? What's your handles?
I can leave those in the commentin our description here for our
listen to the work. Can we we find more about you?
So my Facebook I'm real active on Facebook, but I'm just about

(01:13:52):
full. I I refuse to let it go public
because I post a lot about my kids on there.
But TikTok is at Tessa OK C as my handle on TikTok Instagram.
I really don't get on insta thatmuch.
Gen. X are here.
I really don't get on Insta thatmuch and you know, and also our

(01:14:17):
pride website pride on 39th dot com is another place you can
find me, but I've been spending.I spent I like to write, so I'm
on Facebook a lot, but I've beenspending a lot of time on
TikTok. It's my new found love.
And if you want to find me, that's where I'll be.
OK I got a you inspired me. I'm going to try to make a

(01:14:38):
TikTok one day. Oh my God, let's be better.
Take that together here and we'll just a little bit after
and we'll do that. But so, so how can, how can our
listeners and how can people in general show up for, for pride
events? How can they support their local
communities and, and how can they be?
How can we all be better allies to each other and our community,
especially in these red? States, Well, I'll tell you

(01:15:00):
what, helping our, our pride event, helping any pride that's
out there. And it's the old saying, you
know, every little penny counts.Even if you can donate 5 or $10,
you have no idea. We've lost a lot of corporate
money this year. So whatever you can donate, even
if it's a dollar, send that in. It really helps.

(01:15:20):
And, you know, just like as far as our allies go, our LGBTQ plus
people, you know, there's a lot of people that aren't alive
right now because all this hate that's going on and we are still
here on this earth and we can make a huge difference and just
love each other. Love each other.

(01:15:41):
Put your egos aside and just remember what it was like the
first day you came out and if you could just go back to that
point in time. Be appreciative for who you are
now and be appreciative for all those wonderful people around us
because we really are a big family, including our allies.
And that's just how I see it. Yes, and I I want to know how

(01:16:04):
can allies better show up in these red states?
I already asked that question. Oh did you?
Oh, what does liberation mean toyou at this stage of your life?
Well, I, I hate to say it, I've already found my liberation
because I, I don't give a flyingfuck what anybody thinks
anymore, but true liberation is going to see this political mess

(01:16:29):
that we're in straighten itself out a little bit.
Liberation is going to mean our people within our community are
finally going to start loving each other and stop the
squabbling all the time. And liberation, to me, means
that we no longer have to worry about living as trans people do

(01:16:50):
right now. We don't have to worry anymore.
And until that day happens that I hope I see it in my lifetime.
But until that day happens, I will never totally feel
liberated until that happens. Yes, we're all.
Free until we're all free, Marsha P Johnson says Marsha.
P Johnson, we're not there untilwe're all free.

(01:17:11):
That's that is so true. Yeah, that's so true.
And you thought that, like you, I'm totally liberated.
And, and yes, but let's remembertoo, and we really didn't touch
on because I'm a human rights activist too, our black
community, our Hispanic community and Latino community,
they're getting beat the fuck upright now by this

(01:17:32):
administration, you know, and you know, as far as inspiration
goes, the Black community has been the biggest inspiration to
me, especially black women. I've learned so much on how to
to charge forward and take control of my life.
And I, I know a lot of the blackfolks don't dig our community

(01:17:55):
that much, but those that do arethe most fierce people I've ever
met, right? Try try being a black trans
woman in Trump's America. Yeah.
Yeah, exactly. It's it's being trans is hard
enough, but being a black trans woman when we are the the shit
on the bottom of your shoe, according to some people, yeah,

(01:18:16):
it it's hard. And if I keep going, I keep
going. And Tessa, you got to be my new
best friend because I'm a human rights person too.
I'm I'm always fighting for human rights for everybody
because everyone this is what I tell folks.
We are still protected under theConstitution of the United
States. Yeah, forget that right.

(01:18:37):
Just because I'm trans or black fat old, I am still protected by
the Constitution of the United States, and there's nothing you
can do about that. That's right.
Nope, nothing. Nothing.
And I love that. But I also, but I also like I

(01:19:01):
see what's going on, especially with the Hispanic and Latino
population and families being separated and this shit is
breaking me up. And you know, I have a wonderful
Mexican family that live right next to me.
I love them with all my heart. They have a key to my house and
they have 5 beautiful children. And I'm like, I've always

(01:19:24):
wondered what am I going to do when I see, you know, that are
Trump regime come and try to take them away.
You know what I mean? So trans people think sometimes
we have it really hard. There are people that have it a
lot harder than we do right now.Right, Yeah, Especially, yeah, I
mean, I was just thinking about that actually as we were sitting
here. I thought, oh, how awful is it

(01:19:45):
for us? You know, I, I think about other
places in the world and how theydon't even have food to eat
anyway. So, you know, Jordan, thank you
so much for taking your time today and being here with us.
I really appreciate you being here with us today.
Well, thank you. I appreciate you all the times
you asked me to be here and you know, anytime I, I'm able, I

(01:20:07):
will be here. I enjoy this podcast.
It's so important to hear trendsand narratives and I'm I'm
honored to be a part. Well, thank you.
I really love, I really love having you.
I love your voice. And Tess, Tessa White, thank you
so much for giving us your time and being here with us.
It's it's been an absolute pleasure.
And before we go, Jordan, do youhave any, do you have a final

(01:20:31):
thought, common concern questionyou'd like to ask Tess before we
go? Tessa, I just want you can.
Ask whatever you want, Jordan. I can ask whatever I want.
What keeps you motivated? No, let me take the back.
My final question is, at the endof the day, when we when you are
done fighting and you come home,what's the first thing that you

(01:20:53):
do? I sit out on the back deck with
my German Shepherd and try to forget.
But you know, before that you said what keeps me vote
motivated, though. The fight keeps me motivated.
The fight does. And yeah, so.
But that's what I do, you know, I get home and I just chill out.

(01:21:16):
You know? I also run a heating air
business, right? My life right now is so fucking
stressful. I can't even say enough how how
it is, but I got to tell you girl, and I could tell with
Jordan out of Caroline, we're ofthe same claw.
This fight. This fight is why we're all here
and we're and we're being proactive.

(01:21:38):
And I have to tell you the 2 of you, I'm a big one on chemistry
and how people get along. I've had such a wonderful time
here today, and I can tell rightaway that I just love you 2 to
death. And Jordan, I remember speaking
to you in Oklahoma City. Girl, I remember.
I remember it too, yes. What a small world we have.

(01:22:01):
It is a small world and and, andit goes to show you the universe
will bring people together when when the time is right.
Yeah, I wouldn't. Even know this, this is so
crazy. Like I just always, I love
inviting people together becauseI always think they'll lie well.
And it's just, it's so wonderful.
Caroline I blow her mind every time I'm on a podcast because by
the time the podcast is over, meand the other guests realize

(01:22:23):
what we've met before. I know literally it's not so
funny. So literally, again, this has
been, this has been such a treat.
So Tess, as we, as we, as we endoff here and and carry on into
our week, what message would youlike to leave our listeners?
What, what, what would you like to say to to carry on with?

(01:22:43):
That we are winning this war. Allies, gays, trans people and
lesbians. We are winning this World War.
Most of the people in this country are getting sick and
tired of hearing the Magas goingon and whining and complaining.
We're winning this war. Don't listen to the naysayers.

(01:23:07):
Stay positive, stay optimistic. You create your own future and
you March your own path and you just get out there.
No matter what you look like, nomatter what you sound like, you
get out there. You keep your chin up, you keep
those tits out, and you just March forward with pride and

(01:23:28):
with confidence and the everything will fall into place
for you. It will and I promise and you
will be surrounded by people wholove you.
Yes, test with the same person. I say put your chin up, keep
your test chest, keep your tits out, smile and move forward all
the time. Hell yeah.
You just said exactly what I say, girl.
You're my new best friend now. Same.

(01:23:50):
Yes, well, and I, I just can't, I just can't thank you all
enough. This is, I've been on a lot of
podcasts before. I've been on a lot of podcasts
and this is the most fun by far that I've had.
And this is really meaningful, wonderful discussion.
And I just, I love you too, withall my heart.

(01:25:00):
Music.

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