the trailblazers with Victor Gurel (ep 2b, 43)

Episode Transcript
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victor gurel. (00:02):
We want to escape from town or from urbanism
from things being modernized.
And we want to live in orexperience, if we're talking
about us as bike riders, a moreslow pace of life where you can
take things in, where you canpay attention to the wildflowers
without getting ran over, orwhere you can quite literally

(00:22):
stop on the side of the roadas I do regularly and either
pick persimmon up, or pickblackberries, whatever it is.
It's a slow down pace of life.
I know that the people that I'msharing that space with really
want the exact same thing.
And I think that's becomingmore and more clear.
I think that when we firstdescended on, on the gravel

(00:42):
roads, I think that the initialreaction was that we're going
to take over the space thatit would influence more change
and I think that it's becomingmore clear that we actually
want the exact opposite.
We want those spaces tostay the way they are the
same the way that they do.

mike. (01:43):
Well, you're listening to the underview, an exploration
and the shaping of Our Place.
My name is Mike Rusch.
Today we're talking about thetrails that connect northwest
Arkansas together, not justas path of recreation, but
as routes towards belonging.
In the last two episodes,we have dug deep into what
happens when cyclists leavethe city and enter the
rhythms of rural Arkansas.

(02:03):
The unspoken trust ordistrust and the power of
a small but mighty wave ofthe hand, and the hope that
the shared gravel roadscan become a common ground.
And we have heard about theArkansas Rural Recreational
Roads Initiative, the R3initiative, a potential way for
how gravel roads can connectpeople who have long felt
disconnected, reminding usthat inclusion is built mile by

(02:24):
mile and neighbor by neighbor.
These stories remind usthat the roads and the
trails that we travelaren't just lines on a map.
They're pathways between people,each road an opportunity to
bridge the distance that historyor politics or misunderstandings
may have created.
Trails become the quietspaces where we can begin
to see each other again.
The farmer and the cyclist,the long-term resident and

(02:47):
the newcomer, the rural andthe urban, they teach us
something sacred about paceand patience and proximity.
When we share these spaceswith mutual respect, in mutual
responsibility, they can becomea kind of counterweight to the
forces trying to divide us.
They remind us that belongingcan't always be built through
agreement, but it can bebuilt on something stronger,

(03:09):
our presence and throughthe small, repeated acts
of choosing to share theroads and paths together.
Today, we continuethat conversation.
I would call it a journey.
And this time we sitwith Victor Gurel, who is
the CEO of Trailblazers.
Trailblazers is an organizationhelping to shape how this
region moves, connects,and imagines its future.
Trailblazer sits at theintersection of design,

(03:31):
development, and belonging,building, and designing the
trails and the tunnels andthe greenways that define
not only how we move throughnorthwest Arkansas, but how
we move toward one another.
How we use trails toprioritize access and
inclusion in our shared spaces.
Victor's story begins ona gravel road in rural
Arkansas and it windsits way to Bentonville.

(03:52):
Where he now leads anorganization reimagining
what it means to buildcommunity through access
and equity and connection.
Together, Victor and I are gonnatalk about the link between
rural and urban life, abouttrails as spaces of inclusion
and repair, and about whatit takes to create systems
of movement that reflect thewholeness of a community, not
just its privilege or its pace.

(04:13):
All right, we've got a wholelot to work through today.
Let's get into it.
Well, I have the privilegetoday of sharing a table
with Victor Gurel, who'sthe CEO of Trailblazers.
Victor, welcome tothis conversation.
I'm really excitedto have you here.

Thanks, man.
I'm glad to be here.

mike. (04:28):
When I think of you, Victor, I think number one
I, I, I owe you like a publicthank you for saving my life.
We were in a plane acouple years ago out
riding the Telluride Gravel

Yep.

mike. (04:38):
Event.
And the landing gearwouldn't go down.
And Victor, who's apilot, jumped up there and
solved the whole problems.
And well, it's more to it thanthat, but Victor, thanks for
saving my life and not lettingus be in a plane crash together.

You're welcome.
I remember looking backto you all, and I think
you were facing me whenI turned around and said,
Hey, the landing gear won'tcome down, but don't worry,
everything's gonna be fine.
And then looking at theexpression on everyone's
face as as I said that,and I meant it, but it's, I
realized it that it didn'tseem that way at the time.

mike. (05:08):
Yeah, when you say the landing gear won't go down to
me, that and you just turnedaround like it was no big
deal, and I'm like, well, thisis how it all ends for me.

Yeah.

mike. (05:15):
What I, what we came to learn later is that you
can't actually land a planewithout its landing gear.
But I didn't knowthat at the time.

Yeah.

mike. (05:21):
And you didn't tell us that until we
were on the ground either.
But anyway.
Okay.
So thanks for savingmy life, first of all.

You're welcome.

mike. (05:26):
But Victor it's great to sit with you.
You're at the helmof Trailblazers.
Maybe before we get intoall of that tell me a little
bit about your backgroundand where you're from.
And I know you are an avidcyclist, please feel free
to include that as well too.

Yeah.
I start, so I was bornin Clarksville, Arkansas.
Interestingly on the YarboroughPeach Experiment station, where
my dad was working at the time.
Born in the employeehousing there.
Then grew up invery rural Arkansas.
In between the best way todescribe it is if you drew
a triangle between PelsorArkansas, Witt springs Arkansas

(06:00):
and and Dover, Arkansaswould've been right in the
middle of that triangle,10 miles of gravel road to
get to the closest highway.
And then you were nowhereanother 10 miles to get
to er store or thereabout.
Very rural grew up ridinghorses, hunting, fishing, all
the things that, that a kid thatgrows up in rural Arkansas does.

(06:21):
And then I was about 17,moved to a Russellville.
And that's where my workingcareer that in involved
being a mechanic first anda maintenance supervisor,
then becoming a millwright.
And I guess my first bikewas a mountain, a gt mountain
bike that my mom purchased forme, was working all the time.

(06:42):
Not a very happy person.
In, not in a great relationship.
And my health was takinga downturn at that point.
And I was young.
I was, 21.
Started riding, lost someweight, really got into cycling.
Then ended up meeting mywife, got married, had
kids, and really justcareer took the place of
any extra time that I had.

(07:03):
We did ride a considerableamount, or I'm sorry,
rode a little as a family.
M ostly as my kids got oldenough to ride, we'd ride the
greenway a lot, but really mycycling started from getting was
trying to get life insurance.
We were in the throes ofgrowing our business at, custom
electronics and a lot of stress.

(07:23):
And took a blood test forlife insurance and they
gave me an, are you analcoholic questionnaire?
And at the time, I'd like,drinking anything ever was
a very rare occasion for me.
And it just turned out that I,one of the people that, that
being overweight gives you fattyliver disease, whether you're
drinking or not, doesn't matter.
And so decided I needed toget in shape and lose weight.

(07:46):
Bought a road bike at the bikeroute in Fayetteville and would
put my family to bed and ridethe greenway, from our house
by the botanical gardens ineast Fayetteville down to the
south end of it at the time.
And, be at night, nineto 11 o'clock at night.
And I would do that everynight and slowly got faster
and did my, started doingmy first few road races.

(08:08):
That was the only thing I wasriding at the time, and finished
dead last at most of them.
And just kept goingand, getting faster and
enjoying it more and more.
And, really from there, I hadcaught the bug at that point.
The more that I rode,the better I felt, the
better my health improved.
And it just became a, itwas a lifesaver for me.

(08:28):
It truly was both in termsof, when I rode a bike, I
would ride hard enough that Icouldn't think about anything
else other than riding the bike.
So it wasn't meditation,but it was the closest thing
that I knew to meditation.
And really, from that pointstarted mountain biking.
Loved that, startedgravel riding.
And I would say at thispoint, my racing days

(08:49):
are completely over.
I'll join in an event that isconsidered to be a race, but I
have no interest in competition.
I really am much more involvedat this point just for the
community that I have in.
In, and in all honesty, if Itook away the, from the list of
my friends that I have currentlyeveryone who rides a bike.

(09:09):
There wouldn't be anybody left.
It's it really, my entirefriend group, my closest
peer, friends are peoplethat I ride bikes with.
That's, they enjoythe same thing.
And it's definitely ahuge part of my life.

mike. (09:22):
Well, and growing up on gravel roads and now coming
here to Northwest Arkansasand I can't keep up with you
on a bike, but, so I don'tknow that your racing days are
technically over or maybe, maybeI've just gotta get up at nine
or I have to be up at nine.

Yeah.

mike. (09:36):
And that late to keep up with you, but Yeah, I love that.
What does, growing up in maybethat part of Arkansas on those
gravel roads and where youare today and reconnecting
with this place, how do youfeel like that has shaped
your, maybe your sense ofbelonging to Northwest Arkansas?

I think that, there are times when when
I'm, in town as we wouldcall it, growing up in rural
Arkansas, when I'm in townit, there are definitely
times where I feel like Idon't necessarily even fit in.
I just it's still a challengeliving in a subdivision.
If you grow up in a ruralarea, you're, you like being
able to do what you want theway you want, not having the

(10:13):
rules of POAs or city code.
You get to to live avery different life.
And I would say that's partof what mountain biking and
gravel riding, which are the twothings that I do the most now.
I, that's what I feel likethey offer me when I'm on
a, a mountain bike ride, ittruly just feels like I'm
hiking on a bike, like I'mwalking out through the woods.

(10:33):
The same as if I was goinghunting or doing anything else.
I'm taking in nature.
There's there and we'refortunate enough that the way
our trail system, not only canyou leave right from town and
be on it, but you also feellike you're in the middle of
nowhere for the most part.
The way that the trails arewoven through Bella Vista and
through, hand cut hollow andeven Park Springs right in the

(10:55):
middle of Bentonville or Coler.
Those green spaces thatwe have are really unique.
So I feel like it, Iconnect there on gravel.
It's it, that's where Ireally feel at home because
it, it's, that's, that is thesetting that I grew up in.
It's a very much sloweddown pace of life.
It's no one's in a hurry.
It, it's, finding a, therandom loaded down pear

(11:19):
tree at the end of summer.
That and getting to eat a pieceof fruit off of a tree, like
out or picking blackberriesoff the south the road.
Those are the things thatto me, make me feel really
connected to, to where I live.

mike. (11:31):
Well, and you've been out there a lot.
You've spent a lot oftime, you're probably well
past your 10,000 hours.
Oh yeah.
Out on the bike out there.
It, I think, recently we'vebeen having conversations just
sometimes about the, oh, I hateto use the word conflict, the
maybe the clash of differentunderstandings of people between
cycling and more rural, if youwould call them, communities,

(11:52):
and I would assume you see thatout there from time to time.
I'd love your assessmentof maybe where are we from
a cultural standpoint isthe conflict something
that is, growing?
Is it something that.
Has been steady or maybe evenyour opinion growing up and
living in both environments.
Where does that come from?
How why does this keep comingbubbling to the surface?

I would say, thinking about myself and how
I grew up and how I viewedeveryone that didn't live on
Forest Road 1000 interestinglycalled Victor Road, and no,
it wasn't named after meand I wasn't named after it.
But when I think about growingup on that road and what
my own experience was like,everyone who we saw on our dirt

(12:38):
road that didn't live on thatroad, we saw as an outsider.
If it was someone wedidn't recognize, they
were someone from town.
Who was, out essentiallyinterrupting our space.
That's what it felt likeas a, even as a kid.
And I don't know that anyonenecessarily taught me that
or ever said that to me,but that's just how it felt.
There the swimming hole wasusually just hours only.

(13:00):
If it was Memorial Day weekend,there were a bunch of people
there that, this was ourswimming hole, not theirs.
And so I think that Iexperienced that side of it.
And if I think about me now asa cyclist out on these same dirt
roads that are someone else'sdirt roads, for the most part.
I think that thereis some conflict.
I would say I think it'sgetting better, not worse.

(13:21):
I would say it's gettingsignificantly better.
And I think that part of whatcauses or what's causing that
improvement or leading to thingsgetting better is that what we
as a, as gravel cyclists wantand what the folks that live
on those dirt roads want areessentially the same thing.
We want to escape fromtown or from urbanism from

(13:43):
things being modernized.
And we want to live in a orexperience if we're talking
about us as bike riders a moreslow pace of life where you can
take things in, where you canpay attention to the wildflowers
without getting ran over, orwhere you can quite literally
stop on the side of the roadas I do regularly and either

(14:04):
pick persimmon up, or pick,blackberries, whatever it is.
It's a slow down pace of life.
It's, I don't have toworry about someone
running over me in a car.
I know that the people that I'msharing that space with really
want the exact same thing.
They want their dog to beable to lay in the front
yard and not get run over.
They want their chickens to beable to be out in the, across

(14:25):
the street or to drive a tractordown the road without having
to worry about someone honkingat 'em or slowing things down.
They were essentiallyafter the same thing.
And I think that's becomingmore and more clear.
I think that when we firstdescended on, on the gravel
roads, in the, whateverpast few years, gravel
riding really wasn't muchof a thing before that.

(14:45):
Locally.
I think that the initialreaction was that we're, going
to take over the space or thatwe're going to, that there
would, it would influencemore change when the I and
I think that it's becomingmore clear that we actually
want the exact opposite.
We want those spaces tostay the way they are the
same the way that they do.

(15:05):
We want traffic to be slower.
We want the the roads tobe used or even be able to
be used for something elseother than just, moving cars
from point A to point B.

mike. (15:16):
Yeah.
Victor, thank you.
As I listen to thosewords, I'm like, yes.
Yeah.
I've done the same thingand I feel like that
is a really great yeah.
Perspective to carry withyou and I find myself Yeah.
Really understanding whereyou're coming from there.
That's what I wouldwant everyone to
find in those spaces.
I'd love to understand howyou take that perspective.
You're leadingtrailblazers today.
Let's dig into this becauseyou are a part of building and

(15:38):
creating and maintaining notonly the infrastructure side
of that, but how people getaccess to trails, what that
looks like from belonging.
So maybe give us a perspectiveof the journey that led you to
trailblazers and, and a littleinsight into the top line
view of what your goals are.
Where were you wanting totake trailblazers and kind
of the work that you'retrying to move forward.

I ended up there really retired in July of 23
from the company I started.
And took about 18 months ofjust quite literally riding my
bike almost every single day.
And then started lookingaround at the cycling community
and really just northwestArkansas in general and
saying, man, I love this placethat it from the most rural

(16:21):
areas, from Madison County,Benton County, Washington
County, to the cities and theopportunities we have here.
And I love being able to bein on a mountain bike trail,
but I also love having greatmedical care whenever I need it.
And the economy thatcomes along with growth.
It has certainly, it's whatallowed me to retire at 47.

(16:41):
It was a huge impact in my lifeand just wanted to find some way
to give back to the community.
So I started looking aroundfor, where can I plug in?
Is there a boardthat I can sit on?
Is there somewhereI can volunteer?
And that's what led meto Trailblazers join the
board there in January.
Not too long after that CEOErin Rushing who had, has,

(17:01):
truly in one way or another,has been responsible for most
of the Greenway and Mountainbike trail that we have in,
in, in some manner that justreally poured his life into,
to to all the great trails thatwe have in the trail network,
the everything that we've seen.
And then, so he resignedand decided to do something

(17:21):
different in January.
And there was an a. I wasintending to just fill
the position temporarily.
But after getting there andmeeting the team and getting
to do something, I'd neverbeen in a situation where I
was getting to do somethingthat I truly loved as a job.
Everything up to that point was,what can I do to make a living?
So then the real focus for mejoining Trailblazers was to

(17:43):
help Trailblazers following themerger with Bike NWA in 2020
had really become, the bestanalogy is a jack of all trades,
master of none, where things,the team was spread so thin with
so little focus on a specificarea that they weren't able to
achieve the results that theywanted in all of those areas.

(18:05):
And so when I started theinitial goal both for myself
and from the board washow do we narrow our focus
to get back to what Erinstarted with years ago that
trailblazers, was phenomenal at?
And that was the designdevelopment and then, and the
maintenance of the trail systemas well as playing truly the key

(18:28):
role in active infrastructuredevelopment, the greenways,
the, shared bike lanes, allthe other things that, that
we need to move people onsomething other than just
being in a car around the city.
And we need it, especiallyin a scenario where the
city's infrastructurecompared to its growth is,

(18:49):
I would say behind, I wouldprobably say woefully behind.
But it just is.
So the more of those people wecan move around on foot or on
bikes, the better off it is notjust for the cyclists from a
health and enjoyment perspectiveor the pedestrians who, want
to have a place to, that theycan walk to get what they need.
But even more importantly, forthe automobiles, if the fewer

(19:11):
cars there are on the road,the better it is for the cars
that are still on the road.
And that's part of what a activeinfrastructure provides for us.
And so that, that isstill our continued focus.
It's really, we are still veryactively involved in developing
more new trail that, and we'reshifting our focus a little
bit now to more specific typesof trail like we're working

(19:32):
on, true beginner trail.
Like some of what around theGreenway in Coler or what in
Slaughter Pen where someonewho doesn't know anything
about mountain biking and wouldjust like to try to see what
it's like to ride on dirt.
How did they get started?
Because you can't just go toback 40 or to blowing springs
and on a mountain bike ifyou've never done it before and

(19:53):
feel comfortable, you won't.
And so we're focusingspecifically on where can we
get more of the snowbird trailsor the Tweety bird trails where
anyone on a bike, no matterwhat their skill level is,
can make it around it and havefun and go, oh yeah, maybe I
do want to do more of this.
And then also some focuson using the greenways, not

(20:14):
just, we have a fairly goodnetwork now we can move
down some major streets.
But we're now really focusingon trying to, and this is
not, it's our focus becauseit's our funders focus,
is to how can we startconnecting the, more outlying
communities and subdivisionsand then specifically those
subdivisions to their schools.

(20:35):
How do we help kids have someother way to get to school
safely without just riding abus or their parents sitting
in a pickup drop off line?

mike. (20:44):
Okay.
There's a whole lot there.
I wanna dig into that.
And by the way, snowbirdand Tweety bird, those are
the names of the trails.

Yeah.

mike. (20:49):
We're gonna find out who gets to name those
trails at some point.
Yeah.
But alright, talk tome about let's get into
this because I feel likethis is really important.
These are mountain bike trails,single truck trails that are
obviously northwest Arkansas isbuilding and has been building
a tremendous infrastructure.
But you're also in this urbanspace too, of connecting.

That's right.

mike. (21:07):
So like how do you balance or how do, what's,
is there a common strategyamongst all of those trail
development in what you'retrying to accomplish as far
as moving people or givingaccess to those trails?
Help me connect the dots,because to me, I think
traditionally, most peoplewould think of those two
things as very separate kindof infrastructure projects

(21:30):
and not connected yet.
As I listen to you,you're involved actively
in the development ofboth of those spaces.
How do they work together?
Or are they still separate?

Yeah, they're definitely separate in a
way, but also very connected.
They're very connected inthe fact that, to me, I want
everyone to ride a bike.
Not necessarily all the time.
I'm, I, have cars andeveryone's, I think that
we still live in a countrywhere cars are a necessity.
We're not there yet.
I think that would be greatif we were, I think it'd be
great if there was betterpublic transportation and

(21:59):
we could get by with lessvehicle traffic, but.
I would say the reasonthat I want everyone to be
on a bike has a couple ofdifferent key components to it.
One is that if someone ridesa bike, if their kid rides
a bike, I don't care whetherit's on the Greenway or
they're an avid mountain bikeor they ride gravel, they
look a little bit closer whenthey're, making a right turn

(22:21):
out of a parking lot across agreenway , or they're a little
bit more courteous to a cyclist.
I think that the more peoplethat ride bikes, no matter what
the discipline is it makes itsafer for everyone involved,
including the motorists.
Motorists do notwanna be involved in
a pedestrian accident.
It's the, of all theaccidents we can have.

(22:41):
It's the worst thingthat, that, that can
happen to us as a driver.
So it, to me, it'sbetter for everyone.
Now, the other place that I feellike it's that there's a lot
of crossover or there's a lotof similarity, or, a general
or common strategy is that.
If you look at someone whorides a bike for the first
time, it's probably gonna be a,what we would call a city bike.

(23:02):
Something that's a veryrelaxed, comfortable fit, maybe
has a few gears, maybe not.
And it's really just intended toride on mostly level ground and
get you from point A to point B.
Someone who starts outriding that's generally not
going to be the only bikethat they end up owning.
They're gonna start riding that,then they're probably going to
get a mountain bike later toget involved in something else.

(23:26):
It's, it's truly unique inthe fact that once you get
started in one area, you justseem to trend into the others.
Some people don't.
Some people will be comfortableriding the greenway forever.
They also are very common inhow they are intended to be.
I guess a, an escape fromthe hustle and bustle, or
an escape from the norm asjust a way of recreating.

(23:49):
If you ride the greenway, yes,you're gonna run into a lot
of commuters, some people veryintent on getting to where
they're going, but you're alsogonna pass, scores of families
out there with mom, dad,grandma, grandpa, the kids,
everybody or, just see a parentand their child out riding.
Whether it's on mountainbike trails or whether it's
on the greenway, they'rereally providing both groups,

(24:12):
or collectively the entiregroup with a way to, to enjoy
something that's active thatthey can all do together.
It's not if your kid's involvedin soccer, that's not a bad
thing, but you sit on thebench while your kid's playing
soccer or whatever othersport, cycling's different.
You get to go, the wholefamily gets to do it together.
Everybody gets thesame benefit from it.

(24:33):
So it's prettyunique in that way.

mike. (24:34):
Yeah, I love that.
I think that's superhelpful in thinking through
like the that we do needa comprehensive strategy
in what trail developmentand access looks like.
I'm curious, there's beenso much development probably
over the past 10 yearsespecially, and yet there's
still a whole lot left to do.
Yeah.
So I'm curious on like yourperspective on the progress
that's been made and thenmaybe what the opportunities

(24:56):
ahead are looking like.

Let's talk about the active infrastructure
first because I feel likeit's the place where the
greatest need still is.
We, we arguably don't needmore mountain bike trail.
Do we want it?
Of course.
We want, and we and that's,we probably do need more
beginner trail or we needsome unique experience trail
to, to try to blend it.
But where I think the biggestneed is in the, on the active

(25:20):
infrastructure side andthat looks a lot like really
connecting those communities.
Like how do we get someonefrom the southwest corner of
town, which is where a lot ofour focus is now, how do we
move, all those neighborhoodsthat kind of spread out
towards the airport andover towards, uh, Centeron.
How do we start making themfeel like they can get on

(25:42):
their bike and ride to downtownBentonville if they want?
Whether that's for leisure,for dinner, for work,
whatever it is, how dowe open up that space?
And again, I mentioned itbefore, but how do we help kids
be able to have some way toget to school safely without
having to ride on the road?
And as much as we cannot even have to cross a
road, that would be ideal.

(26:03):
We're focusing a lot on tunnels.
We just finishedone on 14th Street.
We're starting the other onejust south of the campus.
To be able to allow someoneto go up the greenway and
never have to cross 14thStreet, which is big.
That's a big deal.
Yeah, it's a four.
It's a four lanesplus a turn lane.
You've, you it's a, it'snot a great place to cross.

(26:23):
And we're, we've got a lotof other tunnel projects
that we're, really trying topush into now to see where
else can we put tunnels thatwill both do two things.
If you think about a commuter,if they can go under that
road and never stop, ratherthan sitting, at a five or six
minute light, they might cuttheir commute time in half.
So we're looking at ways tokeep people from having to

(26:46):
cross on street connectionsand being able to slide their
way underneath the road on a,in a tunnel and go with it.

mike. (26:53):
Can I make a request for a tunnel?
Yeah.
The one northeast a street,which I feel like we need
a tunnel through northeasta street because there's
no in or out of Bentonvillewithout climbing a hill.
Yeah.
And so I'm getting a littletoo old or I will be too old.
Yeah.
No, I, in all seriousness,the, those kinds of
infrastructure projectsreally do make a difference.
And I find myself today,even moving around in our own

(27:15):
city, it's easier, it's moreefficient, it's quicker to do so
on a bike than it is in a car.
And I think it's because ofsome of these infrastructure
projects that really allow that.

It's massive.
I can make I live on northeasta right where it turns to
gravel and then and then ouroffice is on the south end
of the Bentonville airport.
I can make it there within twominutes of the same time on
my bike versus being in a car.
But I can do it consistentlyevery single time on my

(27:45):
bike, where if I'm in a car.
It could swing easily 10 minutesone way or the other, depending
on what traffic is like.

mike. (27:52):
Yeah, I think Victor, these infrastructure projects
are really important.
Just because I think for solong our cities have been
built around this idea ofthe necessity of a car.
And I think we're frankly,in northwest Arkansas,
we're probably payingthe price for that today.
Yeah.
And so I know there's alot of projects that can
be done, but stick with me.
I'd love to hear more about whatyou see maybe the opportunities

(28:13):
for our region is around whythis kind of investment is
really something that shouldbe I would argue at the really
high on our priority list aroundinfrastructure development.

Well, so to, when I think about it, I've thought,
was thinking about it this weekeven in terms of I've on the way
to airship pump house, there'sa still a few signs out that are
somewhat political messaging,to the mayor, to, "Hey mayor,
let's build sidewalks."Oh, I've seen those.
Yeah.
And so when you think aboutwhat active infrastructure can

(28:46):
do, look our city's got a lot.
They're doing a lot, andthey're, in my opinion, I think
they're doing a great job indoing the best they can to get
caught up with of aging citiesor aging city infrastructure
that needs to be rebuilt.
They've gotta rebuild, waterfacilities, they've gotta
rebuild sewer facilities.

(29:06):
There's, roads that need tobe built and improved and
they're doing as much as theycan, as fast as they can.
And we all wantthe improvements.
We also wanna keep our taxesat a reasonable level as well.
So it's like we, we want ourcake and we want to eat it too.
But I think the reason thatthose are become so important
is if you think about a greenwayconnecting a neighborhood,

(29:27):
or you think about some ofthe things that Bentonville
moves has focused on, likeslow streets or safe streets,

mike. (29:34):
those are great initiatives.

Yeah.
And what those really do is theyare a, a stop gap, I guess is
the way that I would say it.
If we tried to go into everyneighborhood in Bentonville
that doesn't have a sidewalk,or it still has that two
foot wide sidewalk and tryto make that something that
a wheelchair could even godown, it'd be near impossible.
And the amount of time thatit will take to accomplish

(29:56):
that, if we started doing ittoday it would be too late,
it would be too little, toolate the way that most road
infrastructure projects end up.
So where I feel like that thatthat really becomes helpful.
Is it allows you if I, maybe Ican't build the sidewalk, but
maybe I can install a littlebit of infrastructure to slow
down cars, lower the speedlimit, make things safer for

(30:18):
people to, if they are walkingin the street, that cars
are slowed down enough thatthey're not gonna get run over.
That, that and that we have,it's easier to build one 12 foot
path Greenway that can connectsome different neighborhoods.
So maybe they have to walkin the street to get to the
greenway, but then they have thegreenway to get from, close to
their neighborhood to downtown.

(30:39):
It.
I, that's where they reallyhave the biggest value to
me is connecting those inways where they couldn't
otherwise be connected.

mike. (30:47):
You, you had talked a little bit earlier about
how you're trying to connectkind of some of these main
hubs, for lack of betterword, or some of the probably
bigger cities with some ofthe outlying cities, which,
yeah, when you look at what'shappening in Western Benton
County the sprawl there, yeah.
Has been a lot.
And so I think that's probablyexacerbated a lot of the
infrastructure problems.
I'm curious, as you look atthis, maybe, oh, I don't know,

(31:09):
this transition from a moreurban environment into those
rural, or I hate to say formerlyrural communities, how do you
look at that, those transitionzones or maybe the priority
of what moving people lookslike to bridge and frankly
to maybe help solve in myopinion, some of those issues

(31:31):
around sprawl or density.
How does that come across yourradar as a concern and the
problems you're trying to solve?

Yeah, it does.
And I would say that ifI was gonna list kind.
Order of priority when itcomes to active infrastructure
projects it's probably firstconnecting communities like
connecting Bentonville toBella Vista or Bentonville to
Rogers, or Rogers to Springdaleand Fayetteville and so on.
Bentonville to, Centertonand it, so I would say that's

(32:02):
probably priority numberone, because that gets you,
if you can make it to theGreenway and Bella Vista
then at least you can getfrom there to Bentonville.
If you can make it from the,from, the Southwest side
of Bentonville, back to themain Greenway system or the
Razorback Greenway, now youcan, commute quite well or,
make it from point A to point B.
And then after that, the nextorder of priority to me is

(32:24):
really how do we connect.
I'm gonna, call 'em communities.
Still smaller communities,subdivisions or even very
large subdivisions or groups ofsubdivisions where you've got a
lot of density and population.
They may even have sidewalks,in fact they probably do
have sidewalks, but theystill can't really get from
their group of subdivisionsin a densely populated

(32:45):
area over to the greenway.
So then it's connectingsome of those.
And I would say along with that,as we're planning those routes
in, there's a large focus on howdo we help get them to school?
Like how do we connect thisneighborhood to school?
How do we con along the way?
So as we're bringing theseoutlying communities in what
was a formerly a rural area, andconnecting them to the greenway,

(33:08):
how do we also have that greenstop by the schools or go to
the community center or endup going by a grocery store.
Something that, that canallow it to be used for
more than just recreation,truly for transportation.

mike. (33:21):
Yeah.
And I think some of the workthat's been done, I believe
Beville Moves has beenleading this around the work
around bike to school weeks.
Yeah.
And some of the bike trainsthat are going in, some
really, those have been lookslike incredibly successful.
So maybe the demand andthe need is there and their
people, it peers are reallyleaning into those types of
opportunities is different ways.

Yeah.
I think they do.
I think that really whatBentonville moves to me, the
not having any significantinvolvement in oth other than
being, a, involved citizenthat lives in Bentonville.
What they really do isjoin together all the
little small groups.
A group that wants to be ableto walk their kids to school.

(34:02):
A someone that wants to be ableto commute it from home to work.
They really take all thosesmall groups and help bring
together a unified voice.
Look the city leaders, ifthey're, doing their job or
listening to the constituentsand trying to apply what's
important to them, that'swhat they're hired to do.

(34:23):
That's what they do for themost part, but if there isn't
a unified voice saying, Hey, wewould, this is something that's
actually important to us, howdoes the city leader ever know
that's something that you know,that they should focus on?
And really, to me, that'swhat Bentonville moves does.
It brings together all the true.
Small grassroots groupsand then helps bring that

(34:44):
together as one unified voiceso that the city leaders
know, oh, this is somethingthat's important to, to our
residents or it's not, and italso bentenville moves also.
And I think that this part'simportant, especially in
the political landscape.
While they don't, thereis no real political
work that they do.
It, as we all know, it'sgenerally the one loud negative

(35:07):
voice for or against anytopic, it just doesn't matter.
But it's the one loudvoice that tends to drown
out the rest of the morereasonable like-minded groups.
It the consensus usuallydoesn't do much speaking.
It's usually the oneloud person that does the
speaking, and they're notrepresentative of the con,
the, of the public at large.
So when, what they do to me isbring together that voice so

(35:31):
that if there's an initiativeto, to build a greenway or
to install a tunnel or, tolower a speed limit, something
that there's someone that,that there's a voice to
offset whatever that one loudnegative voice is that, that
either doesn't want change,things to change, whether
for the better or worse, justdon't want things to change.

mike. (35:51):
Yeah, tremendous work.
No doubt.
I wanna ask too, as you thinkabout this kind of trail
development, one thing thatreally caught my eye because
I've seen this working.
There was a film atBentonville Film Festival
this past year called Beyondthe Ashes, which was really
around trail development foradaptive mountain biking.
And the term was useduniversal design.
I would love to understandyour perspective of this idea

(36:13):
of building trails inclusion.
You talked about buildingtrails that are more for entry
level that everybody can use.
But thi this film was reallyfocused on how are you
creating trails that trulynot just you know, regular
cyclists, but people who needa different trail design.
Yeah.
I unpack this for me 'causeI think it's fascinating.

Specific to that just to because
I think that it was.
I don't know if it washim specifically that was
the catalyst for, but ourformer trail crew manager,
Uriah Nazario he was veryactive in, in helping
make a lot of that happen.
And, was really the one thatanything I know about it was,

(36:56):
he was the one that taught me.
And it really is just a it'snot even a, it's like most
things in life you can't build.
Everything for everyone.
That's not reality.
But there are oftentimes whenwe can with very small shifts
in how we do things, buildthings for more of everyone.

(37:17):
And that's really whatthe adaptive trails do is
take a trail that, a lotof what's at the castle in
Bentonville, that's moreof the jump trail style.
And then even a lot of the,well, I guess in, in truth,
everything that's at the skillspark, maybe minus the large
drops, is in, is intended tobe adaptive trail as well.

(37:40):
And really what we mean whenwe say that is that someone
who's in a three wheel bikesomething, either without the
use of their their legs or it's,looks like a modified recumbent
bike to anyone who knows whata recumbent bike looks like.
But it's a fairly easy liftto be able to make a trail, be

(38:01):
able to be used by people thatcouldn't have trails otherwise.
And it, the same thing istrue all of the beginner
trails that, what we wouldcall a beginner trail is also
trail that caters very wellto that, that same group.
And it's important if we,if I think about all the
things that I've said abouthow cycling changed my life.
The same thing is true forsomeone even if they've been

(38:21):
paralyzed from the, theirwaist down or whatever the
it is that, that has causedthem to not be able to ride
a traditional mountain bike.
They still have stress too.
They still need a way tounplug and connect with nature.
The same thing is true.
That's what a, somethinglike those trails or the
greenway through Coler does.
Someone can be in a wheelchairor in a motorized wheelchair

(38:42):
and make their way throughthere and feel like that
they're in a state park.
It's, it having those spaceswhere they can be purposefully
built and designed to, again, wecan't make every trail that way.
That's not practical,but we can do our part to
make make sure that thereis some space for that.
And I think Bentonvilleand Bella Vista have

(39:02):
done a great job of that.

mike. (39:03):
Well, I'm a huge fan and I think and shame on me,
that film really opened myeyes in a way that I feel like
I'm trying to pay attention,but it really revealed to me
like the importance of thisand the fact that trailblazers
is thinking, has been thinkingthrough that for a long time.
And there are trails thatalready exist to accommodate
people to be included and tofeel like they belong within

(39:25):
that cycling community.
Gosh, I just, I lovehearing that, and so
thank you for that work.
Yeah.
I please keep doing it.

I, honestly, prior to that film, I had no
idea that film was the whenI started at Trailblazers.
I had never heard of theidea or, had no idea.
And it was really just Uriahexplaining the video to me.
And then once you explainedthe video, of course, that
led to me understanding moreof oh yeah, it makes sense.
I can see why that wouldbe important, see why
it would be important.

(39:51):
And I could see why.
That's still.
I think that speaks to theNorth Star or the very essence
of what makes cycling to methe great, whether it's sport,
leisure, activity healthadvancement, whatever you
want to, whatever it is foryou, what makes it unique?
If we think about NICA,think about NICA and it

(40:13):
as a high school sport.
What other highschool sport is there?
No such thing as a bench.
There is no benchin high school.
Mountain biking.
I never thoughtabout it that way.
That's right.
There's no bench.
Every parent that takes theirkid to a game, if their kid's
involved in NICA, watches theirkid play, it that, that's huge.
Ev there is, there are noparticipation trophies.

(40:35):
But it, but at the same time,it doesn't matter whether
you come in dead last, ifyou complete that race, your
team gets a point for youbeing there and competing.
You count, you matter.
You're included in the,there isn't a, you made team
or you didn't make team.
Everybody makes the team.
They do have programs thatcan be where someone can

(40:55):
be involved in just ride.
But every kid that races,whether it's their first
race and they're the slowestperson, or whether they're the
fastest, they're contributingto their team success.
And it's in a big way.
That to me is at theheart of what cycling is.
It is something thateveryone can do.
Gnargo bikes.
I dunno if you've seen theirtrishaw that they made where

(41:18):
they made a modified rickshaw.
So instead of the basketbeing in the back, the
basket's in the front.
Looks cool, has a bench init, but it's specifically
designed so that you can rolla wheelchair in it without,
if you want to take an elderlyperson on a bike ride you
don't have to worry about eventransferring them from their
wheelchair, which, may be morethan you want to, be involved

(41:38):
in lifting someone that's,your same body weight and
getting hurt or hurting them.
But you can literally foldthe seat up, roll a wheelchair
in it, strap it on, and takesomeone, from their home or
from a nursing facility or aretirement community out on
the greenway to go on a ride.
Like it, it truly is somethingthat everyone can be a
part of if they want to.
And to me that's whatcreates the belonging or

(42:01):
the community around it.

mike. (42:02):
Well, and I just hearing you remind me of
the Gnargo bikes and thework Springers are doing.
I've seen Bentonville movesat a great video Yeah.
That, that reallyshowcases this.
And I had tears in myeyes watching this.
I'll make sure to link Yeah.
That video into the episodenotes because I think it is a
incredible example of exactlywhat you're talking about.
And so I love that.

I'm very passionate.
O once Jessica introducedme to it through that video
with Bentonville moves IDaphne and I have decided
that we're gonna start fundingone hopefully one a year.
And getting, my commitment tomy wife is, I'll make sure that
I have volunteers lined up touse them so that they don't
just, we don't just buy themand they go to a retirement

(42:41):
community and not get used, but

mike. (42:43):
sign me up as a volunteer.

Yeah.
What a great way to, to me it'salso one of the ways that when
I think about how do we connect.
All of us together withsomething like cycling, I'm
imagining, that I don't know.
I'm a farmer.
I'm a rancher.
I'm something, I'm someonewho could, the last thing
on my mind is cycling.
Don't care anything about it.
I'm imagining going to seemy mom or dad at a nursing

(43:06):
facility and finding outthat somebody showed up
this week and took 'em.
They're wheelchair bound.
They can't get out of theirwheelchair and took them on
a ride down the greenway on aspring day when the Dogwoods
are blooming or the red buds areout, or the flowers are booming.
Like the the amount of impactthat has to connect us all
is just, it's incredible.

mike. (43:27):
I love that vision of cycling and I think one
of the things that, it, itreminds me, I think in some
ways that I feel like we havethis history and this is not
a northwest Arkansas thing.
I think this is true.
Around the country that manytimes our trails, I would
say they, they can mirror theinequities of our communities.

Yeah.

mike. (43:45):
And so when we think about this idea of inclusion
or belonging or the culturebuilding of that I think
this also brings to mindwhat that does for those
that may not be those.
And you talked about this alittle bit, that may not be
those traditional cyclists,that maybe the cycling is a
part of their commute to get toa job, and that's the only way
that they have access to it.

(44:06):
Or it gives them theopportunity to get into more
affordable housing situationsor access to healthcare,
or access to education.
I'd love your perspective on howyou think about that dynamic as
well, and how trail developmentcan enable or is enabling people
who maybe we wouldn't thinkof as traditional cyclists.

We talked about this I talked about
this a little bit withJoe Wilson, but I think
that there's a. I believeit's a a misunderstanding
of, I frequently hearcycling described as
a rich person's sport.
And yeah, truly, if you want toown the best mountain bike or
the best gravel bike that moneycan buy, they're expensive.

(44:46):
They're more expensive,the motorcycles, it's
ridiculous how expensivethey are, to be honest.
But if what you want is a biketo get to and from work on,
they're not expensive at all.
Comparatively, I'm, I'll use asmartphone as an example because
I think if I compared it to,to anything else, but Walmart
has a phenomenal mountainbike to get ride up and down

(45:07):
the greenway on and even dosome of the beginner trails.
In fact, it would be arguablytwice the quality of the
first, mountain bike thatI owned, that I bought from
a bike shop just because ofhow technology's advanced.
But that's $400.
That's the price or half theprice of an iPhone or and the
price of most Android phones.
That's something thatpeople can afford.

(45:28):
And another thing thatBentonville Moves has done is
started or restarted the bikefriendly businesses workshops,
explaining to businesses whatis it, what does it mean to help
make your business somethingthat people can commute to.
Or if it's your, if it's arestaurant or a, a retail
location, what does itmean to, to make it your
business friendly to someonethat wants to bike there,

(45:51):
to do their shopping?
And it matters.
In front of Trailblazer'soffice, we've got a bike rack.
I don't think any of usactually even park our bikes.
I don't remember.
We keep most of ourbikes inside, but.
It's, I've noticed sinceI've worked there, it started
in the spring, well, I keptnoticing a bite being chained
up outside and I couldn'tfigure out whose it was.
And it would be gone, itwould be there when I knew

(46:11):
no other staff was there.
It would be gone at timeswhen I knew, there was
no one had come and gone.
And then realized that it'sactually someone that works
at a neighboring businessthat, rides their bike to
work almost every single day.
And, it's, that'simportant for 'em.
It does make, that is howthey get to and from work.
It's either walkingor riding a bike.
The other things that Ithink help make it more

(46:33):
inclusive are like, if youlook at the front of Ozark,
regional Transits buses, theyall have bike racks on 'em.
Just like you would find in abig city where if you've biked
as far as you can and now, orto where you needed to get on
a bus, then you can, or maybeyou biked from your subdivision
to a bus stop and now you'regoing to Springdale or Fable it.
It is very much something that,that is inclusive for everyone.

mike. (46:57):
Victor I love hearing that because I do believe
strongly in, in the abilityfor trails to really level the
playing fields economicallyand socially, physically in
many ways for people to haveaccess to, to the things that
everybody should have access to.
And so I love hearing howyou talk through and describe

(47:17):
the philosophy behind that.
One of the things that we'vetalked about in a lot of
previous episodes is thisconnection to the land.
And I, I feel strongly aswell, I feel strongly about a
lot of things, obviously, but

me too.

mike. (47:29):
Yeah.
One of these ways of this ideaof belonging in trail systems
that it, what I have found, andI've heard you describe this
too, is that, on a bike we'removing at a different speed.
We're seeing the land,we're seeing people
in a different way.
No, no surprise to anyone.
Northwest Arkansashas some really deep
layers around history.

Yeah.

mike. (47:48):
That are some pretty hard stories.
And as we think about traildevelopment or the gravel roads
that we've all ridden how doyou think about this idea of
trail development and reallyhonoring the land and the place
and the names of these places.
The history aspect of whathappens that allows us to
really connect in a, maybe adifferent dimension than most

(48:10):
people are thinking about.

I I'll speak to the mountain
biking part of it first.
I think that this is somethingthat's often overlooked
by people that grew upthe way that I did that,
that's, still hunt and fishand enjoy outside period,
regardless of what it's like.
One of the big benefitswe get from, the way that
we build mountain biketrails is we're, very much

(48:36):
preserving that space asbeing green space for forever.
The time is coming, whetherany of us like it or not, and
I think most of us don't likeit that, that we're living in
a metroplex style situation.
And I think about, thefunders that are helping
us build the mountain biketrails that we're building.
There's really two thingsthat are happening.

(48:57):
Is there an economicdevelopment piece to it?
Yes.
Is it, creating an ecosystemof outside is for everyone
and it's a good thing?
Yeah.
But it's also preservingall of these green spaces.
Look if they were notpreserved for some other
reason, they would just endup being the next subdivision
and the next subdivision andthe next subdivision until

(49:18):
we don't have trees left.
We're living in a concretejungle at that point.
And if you take somethinglike Hand Cut Hollow, which
was purchased and donated toTrailblazers, it won't be long
before it, it is, it's nothingbut subdivisions around it.
But it will forever be thispreserved piece of property
that is there as greenspace for anyone to use?

(49:38):
I mean, I've heard itsaid, the outside is free.
And that's, for the mostpart that's true because
all those, all of ourtrails, every trail that we
have is a multi-use trail.
We don't have any bike onlytrails or hike only trails and
you'll find them, yesterdaymountain biking ran into
a lady walking on the back40 and the people out trail

(49:58):
running or walking their dogor, it truly is for everyone.
But where really to me, theconnection to the land is that
it is preserving that space.
And when we design mountainbike trail, if there's the
opportunity, we are verymindful of what are the
components in that spacethat we can bring out?
Is there a really coolbluff line that we can

(50:20):
take It, take you by?
Is there, can we stay besidethe, sugar Creek for you?
Think about sugar Bridge Trail?
It is, it's wonderfulwhether you're walking,
riding, anything, it'sjust a cool place to be.
If we think about some ofthe other trails around that
are connecting you to, to.
Parts of nature that youwouldn't see otherwise.
But more importantly thanconnecting you, to me, it's

(50:42):
preserving them so that they'llbe there for, generations
and generations to come.
That's really what that offers.
And then I would say onthe gravel road side of
things, it, it really isto get, to go through the.
We ride around Pea Ridgemilitary park all the time.
It's one of the favoriteroutes if you're going,

mike. (50:59):
oh, it's great out there.

Yeah.
Or then, think about the routeswe do out to Western Benton
County to like Sulfur Springs.

mike. (51:05):
Beautiful.

Yeah.
People would not know.
You could live inBentonville and have never
been to Sulfur Springs.
You would have no reasonto go there that I know of,
unless you're on your wayto Watts or whatever the
closest town is in Oklahoma.
But when you ride your gravelbike out there and get to see,
the old stone buildings andthe old schools and one of my
favorite places out in EasternMadison County, is it, it's

(51:30):
in between I guess, patrickand White Rock is a very
old, Hume Quarried limestoneschool up on top of the hill,
getting to ride your gravelbike down a road and see.
You're looking back in, intoour history, in some cases
hundreds of years at theseplaces that, otherwise you would

(51:51):
just miss, you wouldn't havethat connection to those places.

mike. (51:54):
As we think about not only trail development but also
the kind of the cycling forlack of better words, education,
like what's your perspective onour responsibility as cyclists
moving into those spaces?

Yeah.
I think that there's a hugeimportance to us to remember
that the people that are thereare, that live there, that
have chose to drive 45 minutesdown a, either a dirt road
to get to a highway to get towork that have chose to live
that far out for the peace andtranquility that it o offers.

(52:27):
And to the, for the anonymityof, doing their own thing
the way that they see fit.
It's important to rememberthat's their perspective.
It doesn't mean that they'renot friendly, because I
would argue the opposite.
I would say that, when I meetmost people on a gravel road,
if they're, if it's someone thatlives there, they're as inviting
as as anyone else becauseI'm not dusting their house.

(52:49):
I'm, and I thinkthe responsibilities
are things like.
Be ultra careful aboutnever, of leaving no trace
of not when we're, whetherit's we're racing, riding,
whatever, not leaving aspeck of trash out there.
It, it beingcourteous to drivers.
It, if we can tell thatsomeone's trying to get from
point A to point B and they'rein a hurry to try to get out

(53:09):
of their way as much as wepossibly can in the exact
same way that I would do if Iwas on a tractor or I was in
my own car sight seeing it.
It's just to becourteous, to be friendly.
I've made a habit.
Anyone that's ridden withme, especially on gravel
I do it all the time,but especially on gravel.
I can remember hearing mygrandpa greet everyone with hey

(53:31):
friend or good morning friend.
And I can remember askinghim like, are those
people your friend?
And he said, often, people,when they meet you, they're
trying to size you upto decide who you are.
And when you greet someonewith friend and wave at 'em,
you're telling them rightoff the bat who you are.
And so I think that's the otherresponsibility that we have,

(53:52):
is just to remember that eachof us, when we're on a bike,
our representative of theentire cycling community and
it's our responsibility to bekind and courteous these people
to to wave to the way that,that, that someone greeting
their neighbor who lived on acounty road would greet them.
They're not goingto ignore them.
They're going to wave, they'regonna be courteous because,

(54:14):
they are a them, they're someonewho fits into that group.
And to me, that's theresponsibility to to make
sure that we are conductingourselves in exactly the same
way that when we're gonna goto a five star restaurant,
we're gonna dress the part.
Do we always dress that way?
Absolutely not.
Don't want to.
It's uncomfortable but it'sknowing the audience that

(54:35):
we're in or the group thatwe're in and trying to be
courteous and respectful andkind, don't, we don't need to
lose our own identity in orderto, to relate to someone else.
We can just find ways to relateto someone else and be very
much ourselves at the same time.

mike. (54:48):
I love that.
I think, obviously ourmutual friend, Andy Chasteen,
you know, really stuckwith waving to everyone.
And I think I'm gonna adoptexactly what you said, this
aspect of, Hey, friend, becauseas you say that I could, you're
a hundred percent right that theassumptions sometimes, and maybe
this is our national dialogue or

Yeah.

mike. (55:06):
What people want us to see is division, that is kind
of our assumed starting point.

Yeah.

mike. (55:10):
And I think the reframing of that could
be really powerful.
Alright.
I'm gonna commit that it's,

you should do it.
It makes a difference.

mike. (55:16):
High friend.

Yeah.
It makes a difference.
It really does.

mike. (55:19):
Yeah.
Well, all right.
And I think we should challengeeverybody to do that Yeah.
As well too.
All right, let's I want tomaybe as we start to think
about this conversation,I don't want to gloss over
maybe some of the challengeswe still have ahead of us.
So from your perspective,top of mind, what are some
of the biggest challengesand maybe obstacles we still
have in front of us as aregion or as communities
around this that, that wereally need to be focused on?

I think in the, at least in the mountain
biking side of things thereal challenge I think
ahead of us is maintenance.
Our funders have builtan incredible network of
trail and Greenway is,significantly different.
It's concrete.
Once it's there, it requiresvery little maintenance.
It's a onetime lift.
It's a lot more expensive,but it's a onetime lift.

(56:03):
And when I think aboutthe mountain bike trails
again, the biggestchallenge is maintenance.
And what I mean by thatis that, it's on, it costs
on average, and this isdefinitely an average.
There are some sections of trailthat cost nothing to maintain a
year or very little to nothing.
But on average, the best numberthat I've been able to come with
up with so far in digging intoit, it's about $2,500 per mile

(56:28):
per year to maintain a trailwith the flow trail, the jumpy
berm, wide trail, the adaptivetrail is the most expensive.
And then the hand cut trailis being far less expensive.
It just, it's not as muchsurface area and true
to the way nature works.
The less you disturb it the,the less it requires of you,

(56:48):
the more you disturb it, themore you've gotta continue
keeping it the same way.
We're fortunate enough tohave an incredible group of
volunteers with more peoplemoving into the area every day.
And really when we ask thequestion or when I ask the
question, who's responsiblefor maintaining the trails?
Well, the truth is,it's the same as a

(57:09):
street or anything else.
Who's responsible is all of us.
Every citizen is every ci,every user, every citizen
is responsible for it.
We don't think about it thatway, in the same way that I
don't think of being responsiblefor the roads I am I help be
responsible for it with mytax dollars, but there aren't
tax dollars, that fund allof the trail maintenance.

(57:30):
And there, it's a complexreason why there's not.
So if you take the city ofBentonville has inside the
city limits or what we wouldcall Bentonville, maybe just
outside the city limits,like some of Hand Cut Hollow
has about 150 miles of trailin that 150 miles of trail.
Inside the Bentonvillecity limits on Bentonville
City property is about30 miles of that trail.

(57:51):
So if I looked and at andsaid, okay, what is the city
of Bentonville technicallyresponsible for as it
stands to just the trailthat's on their property.
It's a fifth of that trail.
What are, what'sall the other trail?
It's on an easement throughyour neighbor's backyard.
It's on some of the propertythat Trailblazers owns.
It's on, it's all onother scattered pieces

(58:12):
of private property.
Some of that, a good portionof it is within Coler.
But when we thinkabout, okay, well.
Who's now is responsible formaintaining the trail that
goes through my backyardand my neighbor's backyard.
If it isn't the city,it's on my property.
There may be a public easementsaying that people can pass
through it, but there'sno public commitment to
how it's gonna be kept up.

(58:32):
Well, who so so then it,if it's who's responsible
and it's all of us, well,how do all of us do that?
And I think that's where thebiggest challenge comes in.
It really, it happens most withus as citizens and trail users,
whether it's we're walking,running on it, walking our
dog, mountain, biking on it,whatever the case is, it's doing

(58:53):
as much volunteer work as wecan because we're Americans.
We would much rather givewhat we want to give than have
someone else take something fromus and then redistribute it.
That's part of whowe are as a culture.
And we've, again, we've beenfortunate enough to have a good
group of volunteers and justas more people move into the
area, if you move here fromKansas City or Springfield and

(59:16):
you didn't have this extensiveof a trail network to enjoy
most people show up here readyto find some way they feel
overwhelmed with gratitude forwhat they have, and they're
looking for a way to plug in.
So again, biggest challengeI would say is maintenance.
And then it's the fundingof that maintenance.
We've we're, we've talkedabout a lot of different
opportunities for that,whether it's fundraisers

(59:38):
that trailblazers can do.
It, whether it's support fromthe city of Bella Vista has been
phenomenal at appropriate andbudget to care for their trails.
We fill the gap for them,but very little like the
POA and the city have workedtogether to do a great job.
Bentonville isworking hard as well.
They're a little, again, theyhave much bigger problems right

(01:00:00):
now than just maintaining trail.
I know it's important to me.
It's the thing I can amconcerned the most about until
I hear that the water systemneeds to be repaired and then
I shift my focus a little bit.

mike. (01:00:10):
Yeah, it matters to caring a little
bit more about water.

victor gurel. (01:00:12):
But it's, then it's really funding for that.
How do we fund it?
We can do fundraisers.
People can give privatedonations, whether
it's to trailblazersor Fast or anyone else.
It's partnering with allthe other small groups and
making sure that we're allworking together whether it's
to maintain a small sectionof trail and, we want to.
To do as little as possiblein, in both municipalities.

(01:00:35):
We don't want to commercializeour trail system.
We don't want there to be itfor everything to be a pay to
play, because if it is, thenwe get back away from that
outside as free or outsideas inclusive for everyone.
And so we're trying to finda way to say, Hey, those of
us who can give some of ourtime or some of our resources

(01:00:56):
to help support the trailmaintenance, we need to do that.
All of us want thebest maintained trail
that we can get.
There's no, that'swithout question.
And the, again I feel like.
Is the progress where Iwould like for it to be in
terms of funding from thedifferent municipalities?
No, but I if you said,do you feel like they're
doing everything theycan as quick as they can?
My honest answer would be yes.
Do I feel like it's asfast as I'd like it to be?

(01:01:18):
No, of course not.
I would like to be able towave a magic wand and solve
the problem, but that's nothow real problems get solved.
Or if they are, it becomessomething that isn't
sustainable and that'snot what we don't want.
And so I would say that'sthe biggest, that's certainly
the biggest challenge for me.
I feel like the other challengejust at Trailblazers is
helping people understand whatdoes trailblazers really do?

(01:01:40):
And I think that I am stillshocked by how little the
public knows about howinvolved trailblazers has been.
I, I was serious about itwhen I said it earlier.
If you ride mountain bikesin, in northwest Arkansas and
you meet Erin Rushing, youshould shake his hand because
you wouldn't be doing itwithout the work that he did.
And the, of course,collectively the rest of the

(01:02:01):
team at Trailblazers as well.
But it, from.
It starts with uswith a concept.
We decide, okay, we need tobuild a trail here, or we
want to build a trail here.
Or maybe a funder saysthey would like to
build a trail here.
Well then there's all thedesign part of it, of talking
to the property owners that wemight need to go across their
property getting easements.
So you have to geteverything queued up.

(01:02:22):
This isn't imminent domain.
We can't take anythingfrom, we don't want to
take anything from anyone.
We want to to do itin a way where it's
benefiting all parties.
Once that part of it's done,then there's, okay, now can we
actually build the trail there?
How much will it cost tobuild the trail there?
And then there's the gettingthe trail built and making
sure that it's permitted welland follows all the codes and

(01:02:44):
that, and the requirementsthat there are for things like
bridges or crosswalks or whereit's gonna cross a highway.
Those things.

mike. (01:02:51):
Victor, tell me about the community classes as well too,
because this is something thatstill trailblazers is doing.

It's the only, what I would call, program that
Trailblazers does anymore is ourTrailblazer Community classes.
And it's something that we,honestly, it was, I tried to
find a new home for it whenI started at Trailblazers.
And the more I tried and themore I explained it to people
that I was trying to, forlack of a better word, pawn
it off on, because we didn'twant to have any programs.

(01:03:20):
The more I told the story,the more I felt connected
to it until eventually, Ijust said, Hey, we've gotta
find a way to keep this.
And so what the communityclasses do are a couple things.
One it, the adult first ridetakes anyone who doesn't know
how to ride a bike, or maybethey learned as a kid, but
they haven't ridden a bike asan adult, and it truly just
teaches them how to get backon a bike and how to ride.

(01:03:40):
And then there's aconfident commuting class
where they, here's whatyou really need to know.
You have a bike now.
Great.
How do you plan to get to work?
And how do you figureout what that route is
and what do you like?
What do I need to bring with me?
Do I, what shoes do I buy?
It's teaching you how to commuteto work if you wanted to.
And then we also doan introduction to
bike maintenance.

(01:04:01):
So if you know how to change,need to know how to lube your
chain or change a flat ifyou have one, because it's,
that's a real problem if you'regonna ride a bike, even if
it's just on the greenway.
At some point you're gonnahave a flat and knowing
how to not be stuck andfeel stranded is important.
Those are the things thatwe're involved most in.
And then of course thedesign and the development.
We don't build any of thegreenway, we're really just

(01:04:22):
involved in those first steps.
The concept phase, the designphase, and then it ends
up getting handed off to acontractor to handle from there.

mike. (01:04:29):
I love hearing about the community classes,
especially Ronnie, I believehas just joined your team.

She is

mike. (01:04:34):
to come do that amazing human being, well qualified.

Absolutely.

mike. (01:04:38):
So congratulations on having her as a part
of the team as well too.
I'm excited to see wherethat goes for sure.
Yeah.
Well, Victor, I thinktremendous conversation.
I love hearing the workof Trailblazers, and maybe
as we start to think aboutthis work in the future,
please keep us informed.
Absolutely.
Love to understand how we asa cycling community and we
as just as a society can helpsupport this trail development.

(01:05:00):
Because I think as I listenedto you one of the things
that we, we want trailsystems that providing
inclusion and belonging andare accessible to people.
And so I do think that comeswith a requirement from the
community to be a part of thatmaintenance to your point,
that if we believe stronglyin these ideas of outdoors
being free and movement beingsomething that equalizes our

(01:05:20):
community, then we also haveresponsibility to invest in that
with our time and resources.
And so I think that connectionfor me really comes home
in listening to you.
All right.
I finish every episodewith a couple questions.
I'm curious yourresponse to these.
One question I askis around your fears.
For this space.
'Cause I, my hope would be thatit equalizes the things we're
all thinking about or concerned.

(01:05:41):
And so when I say that,Victor, what are your fears in
this space for our communityaround the work you're doing

as it relates to cycling or
active infrastructure?

mike. (01:05:50):
Yeah.
Take, you can take allof that if you want.

Yeah.
Yeah.
I would say, what are myfears as it relates to it.
I would say, if I think aboutmy fears around cycling I
guess this is, i, I guess Iwould say my biggest fear is
that we don't do enough, quickenough, to avoid, in, in my

(01:06:13):
mind the, active infrastructurepiece is the thing that,
that frightens me the most.
I've been.
In the last eight months,I've been hit by two cars
on Greenway where I was.
And then one day gettingfrom work to home
had four near misses.
So four almost collisions withcars in every one of those
situations, I, it was, wasn'teven angry with the driver.

(01:06:38):
I wasn't, because when I thoughtabout what happened, I saw it
as an infrastructure problem.
It wasn't Did thedriver make a mistake?
Yes, in every case the driverwas making a mistake, but
they were all in situationswhere I could look at myself
as the driver and go, gosh Icould have done that, and I'm
a cyclist and I'm looking outfor cyclists all the time.

(01:06:59):
And I could have done thatbecause there are just
infrastructure problems andmy fear is that we don't
do enough soon enough.
Like every time there's atraffic accident with where
someone gets hurt on a bike orin this, look it's, of course,
no one gets on their bike andrides down the greenway and
thinks that there's even achance that they could die.
But the reality is, we've hadpeople in northwest Arkansas

(01:07:21):
that, that died in fatal bikevehicle, accidents and it
just shouldn't be that way.
It doesn't need to be that way.
There's, there are plenty ofmore things that we could do.
There's plenty ofmore work to be done.
And my, I guess my fear isthat we don't do enough,
quick enough because it'ssenseless for someone to die.
If it means, the differencebetween driving 25 miles

(01:07:43):
an hour down a neighborhoodstreet or 15 miles an hour in
terms of how many minutes ittakes you to move two blocks
is completely insignificant.
So why aren't we doing more?
Or when I think about whenI pull up to an intersection
where a greenway's gonna crossat a traffic light why don't I
have some kind of flashing signor a speed table or a bump?
Just something so that if I'mdriving, it reminds me, Hey,

(01:08:06):
don't just look left to, toavoid getting broadsided by a
car, I have to look right aswell because there might be a
cyclist that's about to come by.
So I would say that'smy biggest fear.

mike. (01:08:17):
Yeah.
And those are legitimate.
And I think you're in a spacewhere you see it through the
lens of this infrastructureof ways that we could be
doing things to avoid that.
And yeah.
I'm really thankfulto hear you say that.
The other question is kinda theflip side of that coin, which
is this idea of wholeness.
And I think the one threadthrough all of these
conversations that we'retrying to tie together is this
idea of community wholeness.

(01:08:37):
And I would argue and I'mbiased in this, that the
bike has a real critical,yeah, role in that.
And so when I when you hearme say that term, wholeness,
when does wholeness looklike to you in this space?

Wow, that's hard.
I guess to, I'm gonna contrastwholeness with brokenness
and then say, what doesit look like for us to not
be broken in that space?
Just a different way of Ithink ask, asking the same
question, just a littleeasier for me to think about.
And I guess I would say I feellike we will be more whole when,

(01:09:10):
as a community when the peoplewho love bikes and love riding
bikes, whether it's for, purelyfor recreation or whether it's
because it's what they needto get from point A to point
B, or whether it's how theyspend time with their family,
fitness, whatever the caseis, that they feel like they
both belong to that community.

(01:09:32):
But as importantly that thenon cyclists see the cyclists
as very much still them.
They see, they're not lookingat them like it's an, another
group because that's where,to me, things get dangerous.
We get, when we feel like weare, and us and someone else
some other group is a them.

(01:09:53):
When we feel like that there'sa separation between us.
The unfortunate part about usas humans is then it allows us
to treat those other, the them.
It allows us to treat the othersin a way that's not how we
should be treating other humans.
We just, it just isn't.
And so I think we're morewhole or we embody wholeness
more when we see ourselvesas all part of the col

(01:10:16):
same collective community.
That, that and we try as muchas possible to not see the
division and try to see thefact that, that person in that
car is, it doesn't hate me.
They're just got up lateand they're trying to
get to work on time.
And that they don't see meas an obstacle in their way.
They just see me as someonetrying to stay healthy.

mike. (01:10:34):
Well, I would subscribe to that definition
of wholeness also, Victor.
So thank you forthat perspective.
'cause I think in thistime in the world we're
at that we can't yeah.
We can't move past thatpoint too quickly and we
can't talk about it enough.
Yeah.
And so I'm really thankful.
Victor, thanks forsitting with me.
Yeah.
I really appreciate, lovehearing about Trailblazers.
Keep us involved.
Keep us informed.
But yeah, thanks for thework that you're doing in

(01:10:55):
this community for all of us.
I know I, I get to benefitfrom it as a cyclist, but
appreciate all you're doingand all the work that the
team is doing at Trailblazers.
So thanks for

man, you're welcome.
Thanks for having me on.
I enjoy it.
I love what I do.
I love talking about it.

mike. (01:11:10):
All right, keep go.
Do more of it then.

Deal.

mike. (01:11:12):
Thanks, victor.

You're welcome.

mike rusch. (01:11:17):
Well, a big thank you to Victor for sitting
with me and reminding us allthat trails and gravel roads
are about something profound.
Movement and meaning.
Every mile built is an actof imagination of who we
believe belongs and how wedesign our common life, and of
whether we will build bridgesor borders in the process.
Trailblazer's work invites usto see that infrastructure.

(01:11:37):
It's never neutral.
Every choice about where atrail begins, where it ends,
and who can safely reach it.
Well, it tells a story aboutour priorities as a region.
The question is whetherthat story is one of
connection or exclusion.
Victor challenged us to thinkabout accessibility, not as
an afterthought, but as afoundation, that if the trails
that we build don't serve thepeople who live closest to them,

(01:11:59):
then they're only half finished.
He asked us to consider howwe design trails that invite
everyone into the story ofthis place, the people who
work the land, the onespriced out of it, and the
ones who ride through it.
And maybe that's the deeperinvitation for all of us to
think less about how far wecan go and more about who we
travel with, to use these sharedroads and greenways, not just

(01:12:22):
to escape or for recreation,but to encounter, to learn the
patience, humility and proximitythat relationship, membership
and belonging requires.
Because when we sharethese spaces with respect
and responsibility, trailsbecome something much,
much more than recreation.
They become repair, slow,steady, and built mile by
mile, neighbor by neighbor.

(01:12:44):
I love the story that Victortold us about his grandfather
and how he used to greeteveryone with that simple
phrase, "hello friend."It's a small gesture, but
it's a powerful reminderof how belonging begins
with recognition, withwelcome, and the courage
to wave or to speak first.
So maybe that's where westart with a wave as Andy
Chasteen has encouragedus, or a nod and a simple

(01:13:07):
beginning of, "hello friend."And so for everyone, keep
waving, keep showing up, keepchoosing to see one another.
Thank you to Victor and toeveryone at Trailblazers,
and to everyone else who'slistening, I wanna say thank
you for following along.
Thank you for being themost important part of what
our community is becoming.
This is the underview,an exploration in the
shaping of our place.

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