August 19, 2025 • 48 mins
We close this season with the voice of Barbara Carr, great-granddaughter of Aaron Anderson “Rock” Van Winkle, an enslaved boy brought to Northwest Arkansas in the 1830s who became one of the region’s most skilled builders after Emancipation. His hands helped construct homes, courthouses, churches, and Old Main at the University of Arkansas, yet his name was nearly erased from public memory.
Barbara’s story is one of pain and perseverance, of uncovering the truth about her family’s role in shaping this place, and of reclaiming a legacy long left out of the historical record. Her voice carries the emotional weight of inheritance, the clarity of lived truth, and the call to remember, repair, and restore. As the final voice of the season, she brings the story of Northwest Arkansas full circle, from the erased graves of the enslaved to the living presence of their descendants.
About the underview:
The underview is an exploration of the development of our Communal Theology of Place viewed through the medium of bikes, land, and people to discover community wholeness.
Website: theunderview.com
Follow us on Instagram: @underviewthe
Host: @mikerusch
Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/theunderview/message
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Episode Transcript
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barbara carr. (00:02):
I'm still learning every day something
about Rock Van Winkle and thathow he was a part of my family.
I wanna know why he wasn't everdiscussed, why no one ever said
anything, negative or positive.
They never said, and all Iheard was from the past was
(00:23):
about, it wasn't a person, itwas people that brought the
wood from War Eagle , all theway to Fayetteville to build
Old Main And I was like, what?
I couldn't believe that.
mike. (01:22):
Well, you are listening to the underview, an exploration
in the shaping of our place.
My name is Mike Rusch,and today we arrive at the
Final Voice in this seasonlong search for a more full
story of Northwest Arkansas.
I think it's fitting that weend where in many ways we began.
At the start of this journey,we stood on a gravel road in
Western Benton County besidea cemetery, the burial grounds
(01:44):
for enslaved people on landthat was once owned by Hugh
Allen Anderson, one of thevery first white settlers
to northwest Arkansas.
Who brought approximately 32enslaved people with him to
land that's located close towhat is Northwest Arkansas
Regional Airport today.
One of those people brought tonorthwest Arkansas was Aaron
Anderson Rock Van Winkle.
The cemetery there most likelyholds members of Rock Van
(02:07):
Winkle's family, they were amongthe first men and women brought
to Northwest Arkansas, andtheir names are only partially
known and for too long theirstories have not been told.
Today, we close the seasonwith a voice from that lineage.
Barbara Carr is the fifthgeneration descendant of Aaron
Anderson Rock Van Winkle.
An enslaved boy brought tothis land in the 1830s, who
(02:27):
after emancipation became knownas one of our region's most
skilled and respected builders.
His hands shaped the homes, thechurches, the cities, and even
one of the most iconic buildingsin the state of Arkansas,
Old Main on the campus of theUniversity of Arkansas, and
yet his name remains largelyunrecognized in public memory.
Barbara's voice, brings usfull circle from the quiet
(02:49):
graves of the forgottento the living presence
of a woman who remembers.
Her reflections offersomething that no historian
or archive can fully provide.
The emotional weight of thatinheritance, the clarity of a
lived truth and the beauty ofreclaiming what was erased.
She helps us feel the acheof not knowing, the power of
remembering and the sacredresponsibility to pass on
(03:11):
the truth of our place.
Her voice matters notjust because of who she
descends from, but becauseof what she embodies, the
arc of this entire season.
In Barbara, we find theintersection of land and
labor, erasure and dignity.
And her story closes thisseason because it completes the
story, a season that began withthe removal and displacement
(03:32):
ends with a descendant whois reclaiming her family's
place in this land's memory.
And this is what itlooks like to repair.
This is what it means to belong.
This is the story of NorthwestArkansas told, not just
through policy or ideology,but through the people who
endured, who built and whoremember, this interview doesn't
just conclude our season.
(03:52):
It embodies it because embeddedin Barbara's voice is the arc of
everything we've been learning.
That land is not just propertylabor is not just economy,
and belonging is not justproximity, it's memory,
acknowledgement, and repair.
And that's why we talk aboutthis idea of a communal theology
of place because in this worldwhere people in communities
(04:13):
are increasingly fragmented,I believe that the road to
wholeness begins with reckoningwith the land, remembering
our shared stories, andrepairing what has been broken.
That is what Barbara is doing,not just for her family, but
she's doing it for all of us.
In a season that has exploredrace and land and labor, power
and belonging through thevoices of scholars and pastors,
(04:33):
politicians, organizers, CEOs,this is where we're gonna end
with someone whose ancestorshad no voice, who now speaks
through strength, throughhonesty, and with grace.
This is a story of northwestArkansas, and this is
how it should be told.
All right.
A lot to work through today.
Let's get started.
(04:57):
I have the incredibleprivilege today of sharing a
table with Mrs. Barbara Carr.
Mrs. Carr.
You are the descendant ofAaron Anderson Rock Van
Winkle who was one of thevery first people that was
brought to Northwest Arkansaswith Hugh Allen Anderson.
And I sit across thetable with you just a bit.
It's a little surreal, if I'mhonest, that we were able to
(05:19):
connect and find a storytellerand a descendant of that.
I'm incredibly honored thatyou'd uh, and be willing
to share your story.
Mrs. Carr, thank you for beinga part of this conversation.
And I would just say welcome.
barbara ca (05:31):
You're very welcome.
Appreciate you askingand having me here.
mike. (05:35):
Absolutely.
This is your story and so Iwould love to ask some questions
around what you want to tellabout your story and maybe
you could introduce yourselfa little bit, give a little
bit of your background andmaybe we can start there.
barbara carr. (05:47):
Okay.
My name is Barbara Carr.
I've lived here in Fayettevilleall 71 years of my life.
All my family is still here.
I. I started to getinto the ancestry of our
family a few years back.
My sister was wanting to starta family tree when we were
(06:09):
growing up, we never heard or aconversation of Rock Van Winkle.
And I was asked did Irecognize that name?
And I told the personthat I did not.
And that's when I learned aboutRock Van Winkle and the history
in behind him, what he did, whathis job was, where it was from
(06:35):
my mother, I didn't, we didn't,it wasn't a conversation.
It, it was never bought up.
And I have relativesin Nebraska.
And that's an anothersister off of my mother's
side of the family.
There's 10 of them, 10sisters, no boys, 10 sisters.
(06:56):
And out of those 10 sisters,this is the first that I'm
hearing about a Rock Van Winkle.
So I'm learning as I go alongof who and what he did and
who he was, the history andbehind where he came from.
And my cousin also, I keephim informed in what goes
(07:19):
on because his mother alsodidn't talk, discuss or
mention Rock Van Winkle.
It's all strange to usright now, to this day.
I'm just learninglike everybody else.
This is all new to me.
It's new to my cousin.
We went to the Shilohmuseum in Springdale
(07:41):
' cause we wanted to know.
And then when we go and wesee this, these newspaper
articles on Rock, and Isaid, that's who we're doing.
But he's all up on this wall.
Different pages, not just one.
(08:02):
There's a lot of 'em.
All the way around.
And then when Mr. Moore tookme to War Eagle, where it all
started from, I was amazed ofthat far back of remnants of
their past is still up there.
I didn't know this.
Nobody's ever told me this.
(08:23):
I, but Jerry Moore foundit out and knew all about
it and took me there andintroduced me and we walked.
And we talked and they haveplaques out there to tell
you things about what'sgoing on, what happened here,
what this creek is called,and the whole nine yard.
And that's, I'm I, like Isay, I'm still learning.
(08:46):
I'm learning every day somethingabout Rock Van Winkle and that
how he was a part of my family.
I wanna know why he wasn'tever discussed, why no one ever
said anything, you know abouthim, negative or positive.
(09:06):
They never said, and all I heardwas from the past was about, it
wasn't a person, it was peoplethat brought the wood from War,
Eagle, Bentonville, all theway to Fayetteville to build
(09:27):
Old Main And I was like, what?
I couldn't believe that.
mike. (09:31):
I'm curious what are the stories that you told about
how your family 'cause you'velived in Southeast Fayetteville
basically your whole life.
Is that correct?
What are the stories maybefrom your family about . Why
they chose SoutheastFayetteville or Yeah.
How did that becomehome when it did?
barbara carr. (09:46):
That's a real good question for me because
I asked that same question.
Where did we start out from?
Because in my memory, asfar back as a child as
I can remember, I thinkI can go back as far as
four and five years old.
I can remember.
And I've always been in thatsame home in that same spot.
And everybody in theneighborhood were there.
(10:08):
The candy store,miss miss Naomi.
She was the ice cream woman.
She sold candy.
You look through the window andyou tell her what she wants and
she gives you them little babybrown sacks and you tell her You
want two of this right and threeof this right here, you know?
And the Barkers the LogansAunt Joe, the Lackeys,
(10:31):
the Taylors, the Perry's,everybody lived on that street.
Nobody lives onthat street anymore.
Everything's gone.
The Barkers are still there.
I don't know how we got there.
I don't know where wecame from, which, I have
four older brothers.
I got one brother leftout of four of them, and
there's only one left.
(10:51):
I don't knowanything beyond that.
I don't know.
I've just always been thereand know that the people that
I grew up with were there also.
Nobody moved in.
They were already there.
So I just, being a child thoughtthat's where everybody just,
(11:12):
you know, that's where we were.
I don't know how, and where,how they came from Bentonville
how they met their husbands.
I don't know any of that.
I don't know.
mike. (11:25):
When you think about the values that your family
asked you to live up to, or thevalues that they held as close,
what do you remember from that?
What were some of the familyvalues that stick with you
at this point in your life?
barbara carr. (11:38):
We had cousins that we used to hang out
with, and we were told oldby mom, daddy wasn't much.
He was there but not there.
And that was relatives off ofhis side of the family that
we grew up and hung out with.
(12:01):
But really nothing.
No introduction to anythingof where they came from
before Fayetteville orgrowing up together.
It wasn't anything.
That's what I say.
We say what is thesecret of this family?
(12:23):
Why won't anybody talk to usabout our side of the family?
We wanna know.
And what I'm learning now is themost in my whole life that I've
ever learned about any side,but we haven't even tackled
my dad's side of the family.
This is just off ofmom's side of the family.
I don't know what about overhere, but where they lived.
(12:47):
If I know some of the girlsdidn't live together, the pretty
girls were placed with peopleof, I wanna say better to do
than us and the dark ones wherethe girls were the ones that
cleaned the houses and did thewashing and kept the people's
(13:09):
children and stuff like that.
It was a divided thing.
And it was all about acolor of how light you
were, of how dark you was.
Now my mother was light.
I'm the darkest, there'sonly two of us in our family
that was considered dark andI was darky, blacky, little
black thing little black dot.
(13:29):
And that's what Iheard growing up.
And I had always been ashamedof how dark I was compared
to my sisters and my brother.
My oldest brother he hadred hair and freckle.
My brother Bobby, he was dark.
Me and him were theonly two dark people.
So I grew up with knowingthat my colored mattered.
(13:54):
Why?
And I still don'tunderstand today and I'm 71.
I still don't understandwhy my color has anything
to do with anything.
My sister, the youngestone, she's as light as you.
And growing up she had, hereyes were hazel to light brown.
They would change and she wasthe favorite because she was a
(14:18):
light colored girl, baby child,and she got more attention and
affection than the rest me.
I was next to her in age,you know, and, but I just
had to just let that go.
mike. (14:33):
Let me ask you, I'm curious, growing up with
these stories when youlearned about this connection
back to Rock Van Winkle,what does that mean to you?
What place does that holdwithin the rest of your family
memories and stories now thatyou've come to know this?
barbara carr. (14:47):
When I found out about Rock, I was
proud because I've dealtwith prejudice, not from
everybody, not from all people.
But the people, and believe itor not, even when I worked at
the store, the grocery store atWalmart, I worked at Deli and
I hadn't experienced prejudicedlike I did at in that store.
(15:14):
Now I'm in my fifties now whenI'm working at the store and
how so many people came in andjudged me because of my color,
and I was called outta my name.
When I wear a name badgeevery day, it says Barbara,
biggest day across it.
(15:35):
It's visible, thewhole nine yard.
But I was called everyblack this and black that,
that you can imagine.
And I'm like I don't see color.
I see people, and I still,today, I don't, I can't
understand people thatare like that, that judge
(15:57):
you because of my color.
mike. (16:01):
You mentioned that you were proud of this aspect.
barbara carr. (16:05):
Proud.
Proud.
mike. (16:05):
Yeah.
Growing up in this environmentthat you're describing, how does
that change how you look backmaybe at your family's story?
What brings that pride, or howwould you describe that pride?
barbara carr. (16:16):
Because that white man didn't
see a difference betweenhim and a black man.
He saw that black man as beinga businessman that made money,
that is a worker that can profitfrom him, that taught him and
showed him that if you give methis land over here and tell me
(16:37):
to work it as I want, it worked.
Period.
And I did what he asked andhe saw what I did and saw
improvement development.
Our customers the wholenine yard, and they all
had to be referred to Rock.
(16:58):
Rock.
You need to see Rock,you need to talk to Rock.
They didn't judge him.
They, I just thought itwas after I found that out
that there's still landover here in what is this
little town over here?
Johnson.
I gave him 40 acres and a mule.
And I said, so some of ourproperty is still over there.
(17:20):
Has anybody checked onthat to see where it was
and what's being done.
But Johnson is so much more now.
But I wondered that and youknow, it's not anything that
I could do about it, but I'dlike, it'd be nice to know,
you know, where's the 40 acres?
What was done?
What's built on the 40 acres?
(17:42):
Was it something that Rock didor you know, but I was just
proud that it was a black man.
And you still don'tget that today.
And see these people came witha plan, Rock had a plan that
this is what I'm going to do andI'm gonna see how far it goes.
And if it goes as far asI think that it will, then
this is what we going to do.
(18:02):
And that's what he did.
And I was proud of him.
I'd like to known him'cause he stood up.
mike. (18:08):
You say with this pride around your family
story, what place do youfeel like this story holds
or should hold within thestory of how Northwest
Arkansas has come to be?
barbara carr. (18:18):
The importance of this is for me is to
inform anybody that isinterested in the history of
the past high, how it was,where it was, who it was.
And that's what I try todo when I show up, is to
(18:44):
represent, to teach, to inform.
That's what I do.
That's what that, that'smy purpose is to do that.
I don't know why theynever talked about that.
Why were, why am I justnow hearing about rock?
You could have told me aboutrock when I was driving
at 15, 16 to Bentonvilleto drop you off at these
(19:05):
people places up here.
And what is withthese people up here?
Where do they fit in?
My fit in mine?
Information here aboutrelatives, but all I know is
that, that there are cousinsoff of my mother's side and I
don't know where they came from.
I don't know what the mixtureis, but their elders were very
(19:28):
light skinned people also, andI remember them from five and
six years old when we were kids.
mike. (19:36):
Have you had the opportunity to visit Rock Van
Winkles grave in Bentonville?
barbara carr. (19:40):
Have not just his home, his
homestead, where it was.
Now if he's in the same cemeterywhere everybody else is, like
my grandmother, those cousinsin Bentonville that I'm telling
you about he, if he's in there,I didn't know who he was at the
time, but now I know who he is.
(20:04):
I'm pretty sure we can goand find where his grave
site is, in which it is therebecause Jerry Moore called
me and wanted to know if Ihad anybody in the family
that needed or wanted plots.
They got two plots up there,and we just have to prove
(20:25):
to our family that we'rerelative to get those two
plots to be buried in.
mike. (20:31):
There's one known picture of Rock van Winkle.
Have you seen that?
Just in these pictures,and I can't even really see
him because he's so black.
This is, that's the photo.
If you can see it,we will post this.
barbara carr. (20:43):
Wow.
That's the clearestI've seen that.
mike. (20:45):
He's back in the shadows, Uhhuh.
How do you, what is itlike to look at that photo?
barbara carr. (20:49):
That they included him,
that he was included?
Anybody else?
He's out in the open.
He can be seen.
Not the best, you know,but back in that time
this was a good picture.
And what, just the, what I'mseeing now, he the reflection
that I'm seeing, I got a cousinoff Aunt Louise, it's St.
(21:10):
Louis and Larry that resemblesthat man's head and face.
He reminds me ofLarry in that picture.
Yeah.
mike. (21:18):
In the report that Jerry Moore produced, it says that
that Rock Van Winkle is creditedwith building hundreds of
homes and businesses, countlessstructures, including Arkansas's
Old Maine that he was in all ofthe towns of northwest Arkansas,
Fayetteville, Bentonville,Springdale, Rogers, Huntsville,
and smaller villages like ElmSprings that grew at the time.
(21:40):
And then by the 1880s, theywere producing timber to
support new railroad totowns like Eureka Springs.
This is not an insignificantrole in the building of
a region, in the buildingof wealth in a region.
When I read that to you,I'm curious, how do you
feel about that role of yourfamily and building a part
(22:02):
and a foundation of what isNorthwest Arkansas today?
barbara carr. (22:05):
Point to, I would say, I would brag about
because of him being who hewas when it was, and how he
got to where he was, you know?
And it's if a black mancan come out of that.
You know, at that time in era,in life, just imagine of what
(22:27):
it could be like today if, , hewas still here or shared his
profession down the line, likecarpentry or stuff like that.
, You had to have wagonsto haul that stuff.
Back then they didn't havebig flatbed trucks like today.
And I just, I wouldthink that it would be
something to brag about.
mike. (22:47):
Given this story, what place should your family's
history hold within this place?
barbara carr. (22:53):
I would say in any public place, like
in which they already haveit at the museum up there,
but in, I don't know.
I wanna say , it just should beout there available information
for anybody who is interestedin the past and the history
(23:18):
of our surrounding community.
Why did I why I know thatsomething, at least, you
know, something in school.
I don't know anything about anykind of black history until.
It was knocked in your headwhen Martin Luther King, but it
was happening long before allof that came about and I wasn't
(23:39):
taught any of that in school.
Never mentioned it andI had history classes.
That's not, thatwasn't in history.
I told you, I just learnedin my fifties about this.
And I probably wouldn't haveknown then if I hadn't have
met Jerry Moore because likeI say, our family, they didn't
talk about it and that's thereason why we call it a secret.
(24:01):
What is the secret thatthey're trying to hide
or don't want us to know?
What happened, what thisis about, who you are.
I didn't know this and I'mlearning every day something
different about Rock VanWinkle that was relative
to me that had somethingto do with our history.
(24:24):
And nobody is recognizing himas being part of our history.
And that kind of upsetsme because like I said,
I should've long knownbefore I was 50 something
about at least his name.
I hadn't heard his name to JerryMorris said, do you, have you
ever heard of Rock Van Winkle?
And I'm like.
(24:44):
No,
mike. (24:45):
before he became Rock Van Winkle, when he
came here, his originalname was Aaron Anderson.
And I had a chance to sitdown with the Anderson family
and some of the descendantsof the Anderson family
that live here in northwestArkansas still today.
And they spoke aboutRock , they call.
You have not had a chanceto listen to that, have you?
Would you be okay if Iplayed you a couple clips
of what they had to say?
barbara carr. (25:05):
Mm-hmm.
mike. (25:05):
And I do want to tell you these aren't, I think
they intend good things.
I'm not sure if I'm 71.
I done heard everything.
Yes, ma'am.
I will.
I will keep my mouth shut, man.
I done heard everythingthat can be said.
I wanna play this.
And then I've got threeclips and I'll play each one.
If I did my math correctly,you're the fifth generation
(25:26):
descendant from Rock Van Winkle.
These would also be fifthgeneration descendants as well
too, from Hugh Allen Anderson,who brought Rock here as one
of the very first settlerwhite settlers that came to
northwest Arkansas in the 1830s.
And they lived in a piece ofland out by the airport today.
There is a cemetery out by theairport today, which likely
(25:50):
holds ancestors of yours.
That if you've not been thereyour story goes a little bit
farther beyond the Van Winklesand Mr. Moore talks about
some of that, but not a lot ofresearch has been done on the
Anderson family themselves.
And so I was able to trackthem down and but the Anderson
family at that time, theirfamily relationships with
(26:12):
the powerful white familiesof Northwest Arkansas, David
Walker, Congressman SamuelWest Peele, some of these men
they were a part of that earlypower structure that controlled
what life looked like here.
And so you're gonna hearprobably two voices on here.
One's name is Steve Anderson.
He's the eldest.
Okay.
And then his brother, RustyAnderson, is younger than
(26:33):
him, but they're both fifthgeneration descendants.
You're gonna hear meask the question and if
the context doesn't makesense, please let me know.
I'm happy to do that.
I am curious, the connectionback, you said that it's
part of the record thatthere were enslaved people
that came with Hugh AllenAnderson when he first came,
and, and while that's atragic part of our history,
(26:53):
I'm, I'm kind of curious,how do you process that?
How does that partof the family story?
steve anderson. (27:00):
To me personally, it's abhor to
the, we are that anybody'sever been enslaved.
It's just, it's just, butit was the way business
was conducted back then.
There's nothing I can do about.
rusty anderson. (27:12):
History.
There's been slaves all overthe world, all through history.
steve anderson (27:16):
There are today.
rusty anderson (27:17):
There are today.
Yeah.
It's just an unfortunateway they did business.
steve anderson. (27:22):
Even today with these, all these
immigrant kids that aremissing 300,000 of them,
they're, they're so certainportion of 'em are sex slaves.
mike. (27:34):
What do you hear in response to that?
At,
barbara carr. (27:36):
to me it sounds like ashamed.
That ashamed of the past andthe way the people was treated.
And he has no reason he shouldbe able now, and he sounds a
lot older than me, to be ableto speak his mind the truth.
And that's what holds a lotof everything back, is people
(27:59):
holding back the truth.
Just say it, tell it like itis, whether it hurts or not.
It is not gonna hurtme if I'm just saying
they said the N word.
I've heard it all before.
I've heard it from differentpeople, different races.
I never taught thatword in my house.
(28:21):
It was consideredgrowing up for my son.
It's cuss word.
It's a cuss word, andwe don't use cuss words
in the house, period.
And all I can sayis speak your mind.
Speak the truth.
It needs to be heard.
How you feel about it,what you thought about
it when you heard it.
(28:42):
I'm just not, never have beenthat kind of person because of
the experiences that I've hadin my life from other people.
Some are good, some arebad, but I can't help how
somebody else feels aboutwhatever and whether Rock was
black or white and he becameof a he is and who he was.
(29:07):
That's Rock.
Because he did the bestthat could be done at those
times back in the day.
But I was on thepicture, he was included.
It wasn't a shameful, Ididn't see shameful from
the people that surroundedhim or he surrounded.
(29:27):
I didn't see thatin that picture.
And that was back in the day.
mike. (29:32):
Lemme pay the, lemme play the next clip for you.
barbara carr. (29:34):
Okay.
Okay.
mike. (29:35):
And I think some of the conversations that I'm
always interested in is howdo we reconcile or reckon
with that history, right?
And as a people, not just,not as a single family
necessarily, or a singleindividual, but like how do
we reconcile as a communitysometimes with those stories?
steve anderson. (29:51):
My, my personal opinion is that my
responsibility is to teach mykids that it's a horrible Yeah.
It's a horrible thing andteach my kids that that
should not be tolerated.
My kids grew upon an army basis.
There was, there wasevery, you look out on
(30:13):
the jungle gym on any dayand it was a multicultural
situation and my kids grewup with without any inkling
of prejudice that I couldhave ever been able to tell.
rusty anderson. (30:26):
Yeah.
My thought on the history isthe fact that, okay, if Jesse
James or Clyde Burrow or someonelike that was in your family,
what's it have to do with you?
Yeah.
Other than history.
Yeah.
Do you need to go
mike. (30:40):
give the bank the money back?
No.
Yeah.
And that's not, sorry,that's unique to, to, to
the Anderson family inany way, shape or form.
So I'm just, I'm always curious.
I appreciate that.
I'm not trying to, yeah.
I'm just.
I'm always, 'cause I, I feellike sometimes, and I, growing
up in the south, I guessnot compared to your family,
but feels, I think sometimesthere's a, I don't know that
(31:01):
communities today even knowhow to reconcile through that.
And so I think in some ways youprobably have lessons to teach
people about the importanceof history and how do we
move past that as if we can.
barbara carr. (31:12):
True and glad with the different cultures,
you know, all in one, onespot and you not teaching
your children negativity.
I never, ever taught mykids either one of them
to judge view anybody anydifferent than you are.
(31:34):
And that's the way it is.
I don't have a problem withAlex with his girlfriend.
She is white.
I've only known white andshe, people just like you
would be, people come tomy house and really it just
runs in the family like that.
Them boys, they reallylike those white girls.
(31:54):
I don't, no.
So you might agreewith Mr. Anderson.
I mean that we don't.
See that we don't see color,we don't see negativity, we
don't judge, and you gonnabe who you are, you know,
and I try, I really do.
I can be a difficult person attime, but now I'm too slow and
(32:17):
too old for anything like that.
So I only speak the truth now.
That's what I do.
I see people, I don't see color.
I never have growing up insay like junior high school,
I didn't have any friendsin, in, in high school.
I'm past that.
I'm college bound and beyond,you know, and I have experience
(32:39):
and I have knowledge.
People ask me when Ispeak I hate to talk.
I really do.
I really do because Iget Where are you from?
Were you born here?
Okay.
I went to the eye doctor andthe little nurse, he asked
me, where are you from?
And I said, I am born andraised in a little town
(33:02):
called Fayetteville, Arkansas.
Have you ever heardof that before?
And I was like,yeah they whispered.
Me all that quick that I didn'tget a response, but I knew he
was gonna say something aboutthe way that I spoke because
I get that everywhere I go.
All right.
All this is one more quote.
Okay.
We'll get your response to this.
(33:22):
Okay.
Uhoh,, steve anderson. (33:22):
When I Winkle, how successful he was,
I'm hoping our family had,would contributed to that?
Sure.
Because he came as a slave fromAlabama as a very, as a little
boy with the Anderson family?
Yeah.
rusty anders (33:39):
Or you mean Aaron?
Okay.
Yeah.
mike. (33:41):
You don't, I assume there's no connection
back to any, does anybodyknow what happened to
any of those descendants?
I assume not Probably.
I met with the statearcheologist a while back ago,
and I know there was probablywhat, 25 years ago There was
survey done of a cemeteryout there in that plow and
here, but you participated.
That sounds like you were veryhelp helpful in trying to get
(34:03):
those stories told straight.
That's a really goodhistory of of our family.
He worked together.
Thank you forsharing that with me.
I just, I'm curious 'causeI think I'm always trying to
understand where there areexamples of people who can help.
Uh, guide us through andteach us as a culture of
what that looks like tocontinue to move forward.
barbara carr. (34:24):
So is there anybody else beside me,
our side, and the few thatare left in Bentonville?
mike. (34:31):
That's why I'm here to ask you those.
Not that I'm aware of.
barbara carr. (34:33):
Oh, I don't know children.
mike. (34:35):
Yeah.
I think that's been part ofthe problem is, you know, I'm
curious how, like, uh, that'sSteve Anderson speaking.
He says that he hopes that hisfamily had something to do with
the success that Aaron saw.
How do you.
How does that, how do youhear that when he says that
barbara carr. (34:50):
somebody's got to carry it on or it's just
gonna be dead silent likeit has been for the past 50
years and everything that Iam learning, I am trying to
teach somebody else that just'cause our last name is Carr
and they ain't about nothing.
(35:13):
We gotta be about somethingbecause our ancestors made
something of their self.
So I'm pretty sure you knowthat there's room for somebody
else, but it just has to betold with all the secret junk.
I'm tired of secrets.
I want to hear,what about his wife?
(35:34):
Where's his children?
What did they do?
How did they turn out?
Is anybody still livingoff of their side?
Now we got over here on ourside of the family of Rock.
Like I say, he's in hisnineties now, if not to be 90.
I don't know how old he is.
I know he's close to it.
So where is everybody?
(35:56):
Nobody left over.
mike. (35:58):
Would you ever want to have a conversation
with the Anderson family?
barbara carr. (36:01):
That'd be nice.
Let him just meet.
He met Rock.
Way back when Meetme, I don't bite.
I might use a cane . Butno, that sounds like
a really good idea.
And like I say, I've beeninvited to the home and I'm
not a get around person now.
I don't the strength andthe energy and just getting
(36:24):
older is what it is.
So I'm really moreconfined to the house and
these invitations here.
That's an outingfor me, you know.
And
mike. (36:33):
when you listen to the Andersons what would
your response to them be?
Do you hold them accountable for
barbara carr. (36:39):
It's the past.
What happened in the past isthe past and we're trying to
get future wise, and like I say,we're learning together here.
He's learning about me.
I wanna learn about them.
I really would like to see thehouse that was once Rock I know
it's not the same as it was, butI can en envision from way back
(37:00):
when, you know, how it used tobe and how the house used to be.
And like I say, theywent through renovation
and everything, butthey kept the house.
It's still there.
That's over a hundred years old.
Yeah, that's, that soundslike a real good idea.
mike. (37:16):
The way you answered your question around I would
be interested in meeting them.
And that was the history.
Like that's notwhat I would expect.
I don't think a lot of peoplewould expect people to say that.
And I think your posturein that is one of hope.
And it's one of kind of beingwilling to step back into
spaces to repair relationships,to repair community.
And it's a, it's areally beautiful model.
It's a really beautiful, thisis your, the wisdom of being
(37:39):
an elder in these spacesis that you're calling our
community to a different way.
To a different pathway.
That's what I hear from you.
And so I don't, I'm just, Isay that because I don't know,
I don't know how to judgeif that's a good question
or not, or if we shouldleave that off the table.
barbara carr. (37:55):
I think any question about the past that's
pertaining to this, it, Ialways just put it on the table.
Just let's just do this.
mike. (38:05):
Okay.
Would you ask for reparationsfrom the Van Winkle or, you
know, the Anderson familyfor what has happened?
barbara carr. (38:14):
All I can say, like I say, is that's the past.
This is the future.
Let's do what's gonna bethe best for the future.
The teaching, theknowledge, information.
How about somebody elseshould know something else.
I'm pretty sure there are someolder people than me and my
(38:34):
sister that, that go back.
Further than what I knowto voice knowledge about,
if any on, on, on our Rockand it's needs to be heard.
I think they should know.
The biggest gathering, I wouldsay would be of a community
(38:56):
meeting, depending on how manypeople you know represent.
I. And just doknowledge training.
We wasn't allowed at theparks or the swimming pools
and all of that's skate rink.
I always wanted tolearn how to skate.
Still don't know how to skate.
I always wanted to learn how toswim, love, water, can't swim.
Those accesses wasn'tavailable for us growing up.
(39:21):
And I was determined thatboth my kids to, teach
them, they're gonna learnhow to skate and they're
going to learn how to swim.
And they do, they, theyknow how to swim and skate.
mike. (39:35):
I ask two questions to every guest that I talk with.
And I'm happy togive some context.
The first question I askis what your fears are.
And so when I say that,I'm curious what are your
fears for this place today?
barbara carr. (39:45):
I don't have any fears.
mike. (39:46):
Why not?
barbara carr. (39:47):
I. I've lived through fear, and like
I say, at my age, I feellike I've experienced any
and everything that can beexperienced through fear.
I never have, I don't have fear.
That's the reason why I justdo what I do like working in
Rogers for the first time,my mother feared for me
(40:10):
working a job that far away.
In a town like Rogers,I didn't have fear.
All I saw was a betterpaying job, more money.
I just never, I've never hadfear or being afraid of future
or what happened in the past.
(40:30):
I don't live like that onebecause fear is stress to me,
and I can't live with stress.
I can't sleep with stress on me.
I can't eat with stress.
I just don't.
I never have.
And it's okay, to get ridof that fear, then get up
(40:50):
and do something about it.
So that's the mindsetthat I have to get.
And I could, I call it anxiety,is what I call it, not fear.
It's anxiety to me.
And to get rid of thatanxiety, either I'm going
to confront it or you can'trun no matter where you go.
(41:11):
That's what I tell people.
I used to tell 'em at thestore, something be going
on and they're afraid.
That's what theysay, I'm afraid.
And it's if you are afraidin your life, you're gonna
be afraid all of your life.
You can't just keep runningbecause it's gonna follow
you wherever you go.
(41:32):
And I've lived likethat all my life.
I do.
I don't depend orcount on anybody.
I am a independent woman, miss.
Independent.
But that's who I am.
I had to be, I don'thave nobody got my back.
You know?
I gotta take care of me.
Yeah.
mike. (41:51):
You know, miss Carr I actually believe you sitting
across the table from you.
The other half of that, andyou've talked about this a
little bit, is I've triedto ask this question of
what is community wholeness?
What does wholenesslook like in this space?
And it's a question thatI've asked all of our guests
'cause I, I would hope thatas a people, as a community,
we are moving towards what itlooks like to find out what
(42:13):
does it look like to be wholein this world, where things
are, as they should havebeen in the very beginning.
And so I'm curious, whenI say that to you, what
does wholeness look like?
I'm curious how youwould respond to that.
barbara carr. (42:25):
I may not be able to answer that.
I really don't have ananswer for that because
everybody's different.
Everybody's got their ownopinion, their mindset, people,
some choose to live in the past.
I don't choose to livein a past, but I don't
like change either.
But if that's the flow that Ihave to go with, then that's
(42:47):
what I'm gonna go with.
That's, I don't havean answer for that.
I really don't, because likeI say, I don't judge others
in the way they live, thethings they do, places they go.
I just, I'm one, I tendto mind my own business.
I don't, once you tell mesomething you've confided
(43:10):
in me and I'm one that seeit all the way to 100%.
I'm just that person.
If I say I'm gonna do something,whether I want it and I don't
feel it, I'm going to do itanyway because I already said
that's what I'm going to do andI'm gonna do what I'm gonna do.
If everybody elsecould be like that.
Do what you say.
(43:31):
Say it, do it.
Handle your business.
Handle the situation.
Handle the problem.
But I can't speakfor everybody else.
I only can speak for me.
mike. (43:44):
What does wholeness look like to you?
barbara carr. (43:46):
There is no such thing as wholeness.
I experienced a lot inlife and there's always
a slice missing, like apie, like a piece of cake.
You take that one piece outof there and everything else
around it at a fall apart.
Every time, every singletime I've experienced
that, I did at one time,maybe more, try to fix it.
(44:09):
It wasn't fixable, didn'twanna be fixable, and I
just, you just, sometimes youjust have to just walk away
and let it be and pray thateverything just works out.
I don't know.
I don't have goodanswers to those serious
questions like that.
'cause that's speakingfor everybody else.
And I just speak for me, whatmight be right for me might not
(44:33):
be the same and Right for you.
Yeah, I don't know.
And my advice I choose just tokeep it to myself, you know?
I don't know.
I'll be honest.
I don't, I really don'thave an answer for that one.
mike. (44:47):
Mrs. Carr I'm incredibly grateful for the opportunity
to sit at this table withyou and to hear your story.
Thank you for yourcourage to share it.
Thank you for your graceand the humility that you
extend into our world.
And I'm just really honoredto be able to hear your story.
So thank you for sharing.
barbara carr. (45:02):
I thank you for asking me.
I appreciate that.
I really do.
Maybe by my birthday in nextmonth that I'll have knowledge
that I did have something tolive for or make something
better in somebody else's life.
And that's all that concerns me.
I'm positive.
I try to be positive.
Whether I'm feelinggood or bad, I'm
mike. (45:22):
i'm thankful that you're willing to share those, so
barbara carr. (45:25):
I appreciate y'all.
I really do.
mike. (45:27):
Thank you.
I would say there's akind of stillness after
a story like this.
Not the quiet of avoidance,but the silence that follows
truth, the kind that asks usto sit with what we've heard.
Barbara didn't just sharefamily history today.
She offered us a mapback to what was lost.
(45:47):
Through her voice, we remembera man, Aaron Anderson, rock
Van Winkle, a formerly enslavedbuilder who helped shape
the physical and culturallandscape of northwest Arkansas.
A man whose name like so manyothers was nearly erased,
and yet here in this finalepisode, his name is spoken.
It is honored, not asa footnote, but as a
part of the foundationof our very community.
(46:10):
In a season that has taken usacross time and terrain through
the histories of indigenousnations, settler expansion, war,
labor, faith, and migration,we end with a story that has
been most excluded, the voicethat was least likely to be
heard, and in hearing it, wereclaim something together as a
community, because if the goalof this season was to speak an
(46:30):
honest history, then Barbara'sstory isn't an addition.
It's the lens, the final threadin a long tapestry that was
never complete without it.
In the time I've spentwith Barbara and in the
deep reflection of herstory, I can say that this
episode has been part ofmy wholeness in this place.
Whether that's totally possibleor not, we can debate, but
for now, this, this story,this arc, this season,
(46:54):
this has been part of mine.
And maybe that's the task infront of us now, to ask the
stories that must be told forour community to be whole,
whose names must be remembered,whose lives must be honored,
and how we move forward, notjust with pride in our past,
but with clarity about whatstill needs to be repaired.
I wanna say thank you to Barbarafor your courage and for sharing
(47:15):
your story with us and for beingthis season's last guest, the
last voice to speak into thestory of Northwest Arkansas.
Next week we'll finish ourseason with a summary of all
that we've walked through,what we've learned, and what
going forward can look like.
Until then, I wanna saythank you for listening
and thank you for being themost important part of what
our community is becoming.
(47:36):
This is the underview,an exploration in the
shaping of our place.
I'm still learning every day something
about Rock Van Winkle and thathow he was a part of my family.
I wanna know why he wasn't everdiscussed, why no one ever said
anything, negative or positive.
They never said, and all Iheard was from the past was
(00:23):
about, it wasn't a person, itwas people that brought the
wood from War Eagle , all theway to Fayetteville to build
Old Main And I was like, what?
I couldn't believe that.
mike. (01:22):
Well, you are listening to the underview, an exploration
in the shaping of our place.
My name is Mike Rusch,and today we arrive at the
Final Voice in this seasonlong search for a more full
story of Northwest Arkansas.
I think it's fitting that weend where in many ways we began.
At the start of this journey,we stood on a gravel road in
Western Benton County besidea cemetery, the burial grounds
(01:44):
for enslaved people on landthat was once owned by Hugh
Allen Anderson, one of thevery first white settlers
to northwest Arkansas.
Who brought approximately 32enslaved people with him to
land that's located close towhat is Northwest Arkansas
Regional Airport today.
One of those people brought tonorthwest Arkansas was Aaron
Anderson Rock Van Winkle.
The cemetery there most likelyholds members of Rock Van
(02:07):
Winkle's family, they were amongthe first men and women brought
to Northwest Arkansas, andtheir names are only partially
known and for too long theirstories have not been told.
Today, we close the seasonwith a voice from that lineage.
Barbara Carr is the fifthgeneration descendant of Aaron
Anderson Rock Van Winkle.
An enslaved boy brought tothis land in the 1830s, who
(02:27):
after emancipation became knownas one of our region's most
skilled and respected builders.
His hands shaped the homes, thechurches, the cities, and even
one of the most iconic buildingsin the state of Arkansas,
Old Main on the campus of theUniversity of Arkansas, and
yet his name remains largelyunrecognized in public memory.
Barbara's voice, brings usfull circle from the quiet
(02:49):
graves of the forgottento the living presence
of a woman who remembers.
Her reflections offersomething that no historian
or archive can fully provide.
The emotional weight of thatinheritance, the clarity of a
lived truth and the beauty ofreclaiming what was erased.
She helps us feel the acheof not knowing, the power of
remembering and the sacredresponsibility to pass on
(03:11):
the truth of our place.
Her voice matters notjust because of who she
descends from, but becauseof what she embodies, the
arc of this entire season.
In Barbara, we find theintersection of land and
labor, erasure and dignity.
And her story closes thisseason because it completes the
story, a season that began withthe removal and displacement
(03:32):
ends with a descendant whois reclaiming her family's
place in this land's memory.
And this is what itlooks like to repair.
This is what it means to belong.
This is the story of NorthwestArkansas told, not just
through policy or ideology,but through the people who
endured, who built and whoremember, this interview doesn't
just conclude our season.
(03:52):
It embodies it because embeddedin Barbara's voice is the arc of
everything we've been learning.
That land is not just propertylabor is not just economy,
and belonging is not justproximity, it's memory,
acknowledgement, and repair.
And that's why we talk aboutthis idea of a communal theology
of place because in this worldwhere people in communities
(04:13):
are increasingly fragmented,I believe that the road to
wholeness begins with reckoningwith the land, remembering
our shared stories, andrepairing what has been broken.
That is what Barbara is doing,not just for her family, but
she's doing it for all of us.
In a season that has exploredrace and land and labor, power
and belonging through thevoices of scholars and pastors,
(04:33):
politicians, organizers, CEOs,this is where we're gonna end
with someone whose ancestorshad no voice, who now speaks
through strength, throughhonesty, and with grace.
This is a story of northwestArkansas, and this is
how it should be told.
All right.
A lot to work through today.
Let's get started.
(04:57):
I have the incredibleprivilege today of sharing a
table with Mrs. Barbara Carr.
Mrs. Carr.
You are the descendant ofAaron Anderson Rock Van
Winkle who was one of thevery first people that was
brought to Northwest Arkansaswith Hugh Allen Anderson.
And I sit across thetable with you just a bit.
It's a little surreal, if I'mhonest, that we were able to
(05:19):
connect and find a storytellerand a descendant of that.
I'm incredibly honored thatyou'd uh, and be willing
to share your story.
Mrs. Carr, thank you for beinga part of this conversation.
And I would just say welcome.
barbara ca (05:31):
You're very welcome.
Appreciate you askingand having me here.
mike. (05:35):
Absolutely.
This is your story and so Iwould love to ask some questions
around what you want to tellabout your story and maybe
you could introduce yourselfa little bit, give a little
bit of your background andmaybe we can start there.
barbara carr. (05:47):
Okay.
My name is Barbara Carr.
I've lived here in Fayettevilleall 71 years of my life.
All my family is still here.
I. I started to getinto the ancestry of our
family a few years back.
My sister was wanting to starta family tree when we were
(06:09):
growing up, we never heard or aconversation of Rock Van Winkle.
And I was asked did Irecognize that name?
And I told the personthat I did not.
And that's when I learned aboutRock Van Winkle and the history
in behind him, what he did, whathis job was, where it was from
(06:35):
my mother, I didn't, we didn't,it wasn't a conversation.
It, it was never bought up.
And I have relativesin Nebraska.
And that's an anothersister off of my mother's
side of the family.
There's 10 of them, 10sisters, no boys, 10 sisters.
(06:56):
And out of those 10 sisters,this is the first that I'm
hearing about a Rock Van Winkle.
So I'm learning as I go alongof who and what he did and
who he was, the history andbehind where he came from.
And my cousin also, I keephim informed in what goes
(07:19):
on because his mother alsodidn't talk, discuss or
mention Rock Van Winkle.
It's all strange to usright now, to this day.
I'm just learninglike everybody else.
This is all new to me.
It's new to my cousin.
We went to the Shilohmuseum in Springdale
(07:41):
' cause we wanted to know.
And then when we go and wesee this, these newspaper
articles on Rock, and Isaid, that's who we're doing.
But he's all up on this wall.
Different pages, not just one.
(08:02):
There's a lot of 'em.
All the way around.
And then when Mr. Moore tookme to War Eagle, where it all
started from, I was amazed ofthat far back of remnants of
their past is still up there.
I didn't know this.
Nobody's ever told me this.
(08:23):
I, but Jerry Moore foundit out and knew all about
it and took me there andintroduced me and we walked.
And we talked and they haveplaques out there to tell
you things about what'sgoing on, what happened here,
what this creek is called,and the whole nine yard.
And that's, I'm I, like Isay, I'm still learning.
(08:46):
I'm learning every day somethingabout Rock Van Winkle and that
how he was a part of my family.
I wanna know why he wasn'tever discussed, why no one ever
said anything, you know abouthim, negative or positive.
(09:06):
They never said, and all I heardwas from the past was about, it
wasn't a person, it was peoplethat brought the wood from War,
Eagle, Bentonville, all theway to Fayetteville to build
(09:27):
Old Main And I was like, what?
I couldn't believe that.
mike. (09:31):
I'm curious what are the stories that you told about
how your family 'cause you'velived in Southeast Fayetteville
basically your whole life.
Is that correct?
What are the stories maybefrom your family about . Why
they chose SoutheastFayetteville or Yeah.
How did that becomehome when it did?
barbara carr. (09:46):
That's a real good question for me because
I asked that same question.
Where did we start out from?
Because in my memory, asfar back as a child as
I can remember, I thinkI can go back as far as
four and five years old.
I can remember.
And I've always been in thatsame home in that same spot.
And everybody in theneighborhood were there.
(10:08):
The candy store,miss miss Naomi.
She was the ice cream woman.
She sold candy.
You look through the window andyou tell her what she wants and
she gives you them little babybrown sacks and you tell her You
want two of this right and threeof this right here, you know?
And the Barkers the LogansAunt Joe, the Lackeys,
(10:31):
the Taylors, the Perry's,everybody lived on that street.
Nobody lives onthat street anymore.
Everything's gone.
The Barkers are still there.
I don't know how we got there.
I don't know where wecame from, which, I have
four older brothers.
I got one brother leftout of four of them, and
there's only one left.
(10:51):
I don't knowanything beyond that.
I don't know.
I've just always been thereand know that the people that
I grew up with were there also.
Nobody moved in.
They were already there.
So I just, being a child thoughtthat's where everybody just,
(11:12):
you know, that's where we were.
I don't know how, and where,how they came from Bentonville
how they met their husbands.
I don't know any of that.
I don't know.
mike. (11:25):
When you think about the values that your family
asked you to live up to, or thevalues that they held as close,
what do you remember from that?
What were some of the familyvalues that stick with you
at this point in your life?
barbara carr. (11:38):
We had cousins that we used to hang out
with, and we were told oldby mom, daddy wasn't much.
He was there but not there.
And that was relatives off ofhis side of the family that
we grew up and hung out with.
(12:01):
But really nothing.
No introduction to anythingof where they came from
before Fayetteville orgrowing up together.
It wasn't anything.
That's what I say.
We say what is thesecret of this family?
(12:23):
Why won't anybody talk to usabout our side of the family?
We wanna know.
And what I'm learning now is themost in my whole life that I've
ever learned about any side,but we haven't even tackled
my dad's side of the family.
This is just off ofmom's side of the family.
I don't know what about overhere, but where they lived.
(12:47):
If I know some of the girlsdidn't live together, the pretty
girls were placed with peopleof, I wanna say better to do
than us and the dark ones wherethe girls were the ones that
cleaned the houses and did thewashing and kept the people's
(13:09):
children and stuff like that.
It was a divided thing.
And it was all about acolor of how light you
were, of how dark you was.
Now my mother was light.
I'm the darkest, there'sonly two of us in our family
that was considered dark andI was darky, blacky, little
black thing little black dot.
(13:29):
And that's what Iheard growing up.
And I had always been ashamedof how dark I was compared
to my sisters and my brother.
My oldest brother he hadred hair and freckle.
My brother Bobby, he was dark.
Me and him were theonly two dark people.
So I grew up with knowingthat my colored mattered.
(13:54):
Why?
And I still don'tunderstand today and I'm 71.
I still don't understandwhy my color has anything
to do with anything.
My sister, the youngestone, she's as light as you.
And growing up she had, hereyes were hazel to light brown.
They would change and she wasthe favorite because she was a
(14:18):
light colored girl, baby child,and she got more attention and
affection than the rest me.
I was next to her in age,you know, and, but I just
had to just let that go.
mike. (14:33):
Let me ask you, I'm curious, growing up with
these stories when youlearned about this connection
back to Rock Van Winkle,what does that mean to you?
What place does that holdwithin the rest of your family
memories and stories now thatyou've come to know this?
barbara carr. (14:47):
When I found out about Rock, I was
proud because I've dealtwith prejudice, not from
everybody, not from all people.
But the people, and believe itor not, even when I worked at
the store, the grocery store atWalmart, I worked at Deli and
I hadn't experienced prejudicedlike I did at in that store.
(15:14):
Now I'm in my fifties now whenI'm working at the store and
how so many people came in andjudged me because of my color,
and I was called outta my name.
When I wear a name badgeevery day, it says Barbara,
biggest day across it.
(15:35):
It's visible, thewhole nine yard.
But I was called everyblack this and black that,
that you can imagine.
And I'm like I don't see color.
I see people, and I still,today, I don't, I can't
understand people thatare like that, that judge
(15:57):
you because of my color.
mike. (16:01):
You mentioned that you were proud of this aspect.
barbara carr. (16:05):
Proud.
Proud.
mike. (16:05):
Yeah.
Growing up in this environmentthat you're describing, how does
that change how you look backmaybe at your family's story?
What brings that pride, or howwould you describe that pride?
barbara carr. (16:16):
Because that white man didn't
see a difference betweenhim and a black man.
He saw that black man as beinga businessman that made money,
that is a worker that can profitfrom him, that taught him and
showed him that if you give methis land over here and tell me
(16:37):
to work it as I want, it worked.
Period.
And I did what he asked andhe saw what I did and saw
improvement development.
Our customers the wholenine yard, and they all
had to be referred to Rock.
(16:58):
Rock.
You need to see Rock,you need to talk to Rock.
They didn't judge him.
They, I just thought itwas after I found that out
that there's still landover here in what is this
little town over here?
Johnson.
I gave him 40 acres and a mule.
And I said, so some of ourproperty is still over there.
(17:20):
Has anybody checked onthat to see where it was
and what's being done.
But Johnson is so much more now.
But I wondered that and youknow, it's not anything that
I could do about it, but I'dlike, it'd be nice to know,
you know, where's the 40 acres?
What was done?
What's built on the 40 acres?
(17:42):
Was it something that Rock didor you know, but I was just
proud that it was a black man.
And you still don'tget that today.
And see these people came witha plan, Rock had a plan that
this is what I'm going to do andI'm gonna see how far it goes.
And if it goes as far asI think that it will, then
this is what we going to do.
(18:02):
And that's what he did.
And I was proud of him.
I'd like to known him'cause he stood up.
mike. (18:08):
You say with this pride around your family
story, what place do youfeel like this story holds
or should hold within thestory of how Northwest
Arkansas has come to be?
barbara carr. (18:18):
The importance of this is for me is to
inform anybody that isinterested in the history of
the past high, how it was,where it was, who it was.
And that's what I try todo when I show up, is to
(18:44):
represent, to teach, to inform.
That's what I do.
That's what that, that'smy purpose is to do that.
I don't know why theynever talked about that.
Why were, why am I justnow hearing about rock?
You could have told me aboutrock when I was driving
at 15, 16 to Bentonvilleto drop you off at these
(19:05):
people places up here.
And what is withthese people up here?
Where do they fit in?
My fit in mine?
Information here aboutrelatives, but all I know is
that, that there are cousinsoff of my mother's side and I
don't know where they came from.
I don't know what the mixtureis, but their elders were very
(19:28):
light skinned people also, andI remember them from five and
six years old when we were kids.
mike. (19:36):
Have you had the opportunity to visit Rock Van
Winkles grave in Bentonville?
barbara carr. (19:40):
Have not just his home, his
homestead, where it was.
Now if he's in the same cemeterywhere everybody else is, like
my grandmother, those cousinsin Bentonville that I'm telling
you about he, if he's in there,I didn't know who he was at the
time, but now I know who he is.
(20:04):
I'm pretty sure we can goand find where his grave
site is, in which it is therebecause Jerry Moore called
me and wanted to know if Ihad anybody in the family
that needed or wanted plots.
They got two plots up there,and we just have to prove
(20:25):
to our family that we'rerelative to get those two
plots to be buried in.
mike. (20:31):
There's one known picture of Rock van Winkle.
Have you seen that?
Just in these pictures,and I can't even really see
him because he's so black.
This is, that's the photo.
If you can see it,we will post this.
barbara carr. (20:43):
Wow.
That's the clearestI've seen that.
mike. (20:45):
He's back in the shadows, Uhhuh.
How do you, what is itlike to look at that photo?
barbara carr. (20:49):
That they included him,
that he was included?
Anybody else?
He's out in the open.
He can be seen.
Not the best, you know,but back in that time
this was a good picture.
And what, just the, what I'mseeing now, he the reflection
that I'm seeing, I got a cousinoff Aunt Louise, it's St.
(21:10):
Louis and Larry that resemblesthat man's head and face.
He reminds me ofLarry in that picture.
Yeah.
mike. (21:18):
In the report that Jerry Moore produced, it says that
that Rock Van Winkle is creditedwith building hundreds of
homes and businesses, countlessstructures, including Arkansas's
Old Maine that he was in all ofthe towns of northwest Arkansas,
Fayetteville, Bentonville,Springdale, Rogers, Huntsville,
and smaller villages like ElmSprings that grew at the time.
(21:40):
And then by the 1880s, theywere producing timber to
support new railroad totowns like Eureka Springs.
This is not an insignificantrole in the building of
a region, in the buildingof wealth in a region.
When I read that to you,I'm curious, how do you
feel about that role of yourfamily and building a part
(22:02):
and a foundation of what isNorthwest Arkansas today?
barbara carr. (22:05):
Point to, I would say, I would brag about
because of him being who hewas when it was, and how he
got to where he was, you know?
And it's if a black mancan come out of that.
You know, at that time in era,in life, just imagine of what
(22:27):
it could be like today if, , hewas still here or shared his
profession down the line, likecarpentry or stuff like that.
, You had to have wagonsto haul that stuff.
Back then they didn't havebig flatbed trucks like today.
And I just, I wouldthink that it would be
something to brag about.
mike. (22:47):
Given this story, what place should your family's
history hold within this place?
barbara carr. (22:53):
I would say in any public place, like
in which they already haveit at the museum up there,
but in, I don't know.
I wanna say , it just should beout there available information
for anybody who is interestedin the past and the history
(23:18):
of our surrounding community.
Why did I why I know thatsomething, at least, you
know, something in school.
I don't know anything about anykind of black history until.
It was knocked in your headwhen Martin Luther King, but it
was happening long before allof that came about and I wasn't
(23:39):
taught any of that in school.
Never mentioned it andI had history classes.
That's not, thatwasn't in history.
I told you, I just learnedin my fifties about this.
And I probably wouldn't haveknown then if I hadn't have
met Jerry Moore because likeI say, our family, they didn't
talk about it and that's thereason why we call it a secret.
(24:01):
What is the secret thatthey're trying to hide
or don't want us to know?
What happened, what thisis about, who you are.
I didn't know this and I'mlearning every day something
different about Rock VanWinkle that was relative
to me that had somethingto do with our history.
(24:24):
And nobody is recognizing himas being part of our history.
And that kind of upsetsme because like I said,
I should've long knownbefore I was 50 something
about at least his name.
I hadn't heard his name to JerryMorris said, do you, have you
ever heard of Rock Van Winkle?
And I'm like.
(24:44):
No,
mike. (24:45):
before he became Rock Van Winkle, when he
came here, his originalname was Aaron Anderson.
And I had a chance to sitdown with the Anderson family
and some of the descendantsof the Anderson family
that live here in northwestArkansas still today.
And they spoke aboutRock , they call.
You have not had a chanceto listen to that, have you?
Would you be okay if Iplayed you a couple clips
of what they had to say?
barbara carr. (25:05):
Mm-hmm.
mike. (25:05):
And I do want to tell you these aren't, I think
they intend good things.
I'm not sure if I'm 71.
I done heard everything.
Yes, ma'am.
I will.
I will keep my mouth shut, man.
I done heard everythingthat can be said.
I wanna play this.
And then I've got threeclips and I'll play each one.
If I did my math correctly,you're the fifth generation
(25:26):
descendant from Rock Van Winkle.
These would also be fifthgeneration descendants as well
too, from Hugh Allen Anderson,who brought Rock here as one
of the very first settlerwhite settlers that came to
northwest Arkansas in the 1830s.
And they lived in a piece ofland out by the airport today.
There is a cemetery out by theairport today, which likely
(25:50):
holds ancestors of yours.
That if you've not been thereyour story goes a little bit
farther beyond the Van Winklesand Mr. Moore talks about
some of that, but not a lot ofresearch has been done on the
Anderson family themselves.
And so I was able to trackthem down and but the Anderson
family at that time, theirfamily relationships with
(26:12):
the powerful white familiesof Northwest Arkansas, David
Walker, Congressman SamuelWest Peele, some of these men
they were a part of that earlypower structure that controlled
what life looked like here.
And so you're gonna hearprobably two voices on here.
One's name is Steve Anderson.
He's the eldest.
Okay.
And then his brother, RustyAnderson, is younger than
(26:33):
him, but they're both fifthgeneration descendants.
You're gonna hear meask the question and if
the context doesn't makesense, please let me know.
I'm happy to do that.
I am curious, the connectionback, you said that it's
part of the record thatthere were enslaved people
that came with Hugh AllenAnderson when he first came,
and, and while that's atragic part of our history,
(26:53):
I'm, I'm kind of curious,how do you process that?
How does that partof the family story?
steve anderson. (27:00):
To me personally, it's abhor to
the, we are that anybody'sever been enslaved.
It's just, it's just, butit was the way business
was conducted back then.
There's nothing I can do about.
rusty anderson. (27:12):
History.
There's been slaves all overthe world, all through history.
steve anderson (27:16):
There are today.
rusty anderson (27:17):
There are today.
Yeah.
It's just an unfortunateway they did business.
steve anderson. (27:22):
Even today with these, all these
immigrant kids that aremissing 300,000 of them,
they're, they're so certainportion of 'em are sex slaves.
mike. (27:34):
What do you hear in response to that?
At,
barbara carr. (27:36):
to me it sounds like ashamed.
That ashamed of the past andthe way the people was treated.
And he has no reason he shouldbe able now, and he sounds a
lot older than me, to be ableto speak his mind the truth.
And that's what holds a lotof everything back, is people
(27:59):
holding back the truth.
Just say it, tell it like itis, whether it hurts or not.
It is not gonna hurtme if I'm just saying
they said the N word.
I've heard it all before.
I've heard it from differentpeople, different races.
I never taught thatword in my house.
(28:21):
It was consideredgrowing up for my son.
It's cuss word.
It's a cuss word, andwe don't use cuss words
in the house, period.
And all I can sayis speak your mind.
Speak the truth.
It needs to be heard.
How you feel about it,what you thought about
it when you heard it.
(28:42):
I'm just not, never have beenthat kind of person because of
the experiences that I've hadin my life from other people.
Some are good, some arebad, but I can't help how
somebody else feels aboutwhatever and whether Rock was
black or white and he becameof a he is and who he was.
(29:07):
That's Rock.
Because he did the bestthat could be done at those
times back in the day.
But I was on thepicture, he was included.
It wasn't a shameful, Ididn't see shameful from
the people that surroundedhim or he surrounded.
(29:27):
I didn't see thatin that picture.
And that was back in the day.
mike. (29:32):
Lemme pay the, lemme play the next clip for you.
barbara carr. (29:34):
Okay.
Okay.
mike. (29:35):
And I think some of the conversations that I'm
always interested in is howdo we reconcile or reckon
with that history, right?
And as a people, not just,not as a single family
necessarily, or a singleindividual, but like how do
we reconcile as a communitysometimes with those stories?
steve anderson. (29:51):
My, my personal opinion is that my
responsibility is to teach mykids that it's a horrible Yeah.
It's a horrible thing andteach my kids that that
should not be tolerated.
My kids grew upon an army basis.
There was, there wasevery, you look out on
(30:13):
the jungle gym on any dayand it was a multicultural
situation and my kids grewup with without any inkling
of prejudice that I couldhave ever been able to tell.
rusty anderson. (30:26):
Yeah.
My thought on the history isthe fact that, okay, if Jesse
James or Clyde Burrow or someonelike that was in your family,
what's it have to do with you?
Yeah.
Other than history.
Yeah.
Do you need to go
mike. (30:40):
give the bank the money back?
No.
Yeah.
And that's not, sorry,that's unique to, to, to
the Anderson family inany way, shape or form.
So I'm just, I'm always curious.
I appreciate that.
I'm not trying to, yeah.
I'm just.
I'm always, 'cause I, I feellike sometimes, and I, growing
up in the south, I guessnot compared to your family,
but feels, I think sometimesthere's a, I don't know that
(31:01):
communities today even knowhow to reconcile through that.
And so I think in some ways youprobably have lessons to teach
people about the importanceof history and how do we
move past that as if we can.
barbara carr. (31:12):
True and glad with the different cultures,
you know, all in one, onespot and you not teaching
your children negativity.
I never, ever taught mykids either one of them
to judge view anybody anydifferent than you are.
(31:34):
And that's the way it is.
I don't have a problem withAlex with his girlfriend.
She is white.
I've only known white andshe, people just like you
would be, people come tomy house and really it just
runs in the family like that.
Them boys, they reallylike those white girls.
(31:54):
I don't, no.
So you might agreewith Mr. Anderson.
I mean that we don't.
See that we don't see color,we don't see negativity, we
don't judge, and you gonnabe who you are, you know,
and I try, I really do.
I can be a difficult person attime, but now I'm too slow and
(32:17):
too old for anything like that.
So I only speak the truth now.
That's what I do.
I see people, I don't see color.
I never have growing up insay like junior high school,
I didn't have any friendsin, in, in high school.
I'm past that.
I'm college bound and beyond,you know, and I have experience
(32:39):
and I have knowledge.
People ask me when Ispeak I hate to talk.
I really do.
I really do because Iget Where are you from?
Were you born here?
Okay.
I went to the eye doctor andthe little nurse, he asked
me, where are you from?
And I said, I am born andraised in a little town
(33:02):
called Fayetteville, Arkansas.
Have you ever heardof that before?
And I was like,yeah they whispered.
Me all that quick that I didn'tget a response, but I knew he
was gonna say something aboutthe way that I spoke because
I get that everywhere I go.
All right.
All this is one more quote.
Okay.
We'll get your response to this.
(33:22):
Okay.
Uhoh,, steve anderson. (33:22):
When I Winkle, how successful he was,
I'm hoping our family had,would contributed to that?
Sure.
Because he came as a slave fromAlabama as a very, as a little
boy with the Anderson family?
Yeah.
rusty anders (33:39):
Or you mean Aaron?
Okay.
Yeah.
mike. (33:41):
You don't, I assume there's no connection
back to any, does anybodyknow what happened to
any of those descendants?
I assume not Probably.
I met with the statearcheologist a while back ago,
and I know there was probablywhat, 25 years ago There was
survey done of a cemeteryout there in that plow and
here, but you participated.
That sounds like you were veryhelp helpful in trying to get
(34:03):
those stories told straight.
That's a really goodhistory of of our family.
He worked together.
Thank you forsharing that with me.
I just, I'm curious 'causeI think I'm always trying to
understand where there areexamples of people who can help.
Uh, guide us through andteach us as a culture of
what that looks like tocontinue to move forward.
barbara carr. (34:24):
So is there anybody else beside me,
our side, and the few thatare left in Bentonville?
mike. (34:31):
That's why I'm here to ask you those.
Not that I'm aware of.
barbara carr. (34:33):
Oh, I don't know children.
mike. (34:35):
Yeah.
I think that's been part ofthe problem is, you know, I'm
curious how, like, uh, that'sSteve Anderson speaking.
He says that he hopes that hisfamily had something to do with
the success that Aaron saw.
How do you.
How does that, how do youhear that when he says that
barbara carr. (34:50):
somebody's got to carry it on or it's just
gonna be dead silent likeit has been for the past 50
years and everything that Iam learning, I am trying to
teach somebody else that just'cause our last name is Carr
and they ain't about nothing.
(35:13):
We gotta be about somethingbecause our ancestors made
something of their self.
So I'm pretty sure you knowthat there's room for somebody
else, but it just has to betold with all the secret junk.
I'm tired of secrets.
I want to hear,what about his wife?
(35:34):
Where's his children?
What did they do?
How did they turn out?
Is anybody still livingoff of their side?
Now we got over here on ourside of the family of Rock.
Like I say, he's in hisnineties now, if not to be 90.
I don't know how old he is.
I know he's close to it.
So where is everybody?
(35:56):
Nobody left over.
mike. (35:58):
Would you ever want to have a conversation
with the Anderson family?
barbara carr. (36:01):
That'd be nice.
Let him just meet.
He met Rock.
Way back when Meetme, I don't bite.
I might use a cane . Butno, that sounds like
a really good idea.
And like I say, I've beeninvited to the home and I'm
not a get around person now.
I don't the strength andthe energy and just getting
(36:24):
older is what it is.
So I'm really moreconfined to the house and
these invitations here.
That's an outingfor me, you know.
And
mike. (36:33):
when you listen to the Andersons what would
your response to them be?
Do you hold them accountable for
barbara carr. (36:39):
It's the past.
What happened in the past isthe past and we're trying to
get future wise, and like I say,we're learning together here.
He's learning about me.
I wanna learn about them.
I really would like to see thehouse that was once Rock I know
it's not the same as it was, butI can en envision from way back
(37:00):
when, you know, how it used tobe and how the house used to be.
And like I say, theywent through renovation
and everything, butthey kept the house.
It's still there.
That's over a hundred years old.
Yeah, that's, that soundslike a real good idea.
mike. (37:16):
The way you answered your question around I would
be interested in meeting them.
And that was the history.
Like that's notwhat I would expect.
I don't think a lot of peoplewould expect people to say that.
And I think your posturein that is one of hope.
And it's one of kind of beingwilling to step back into
spaces to repair relationships,to repair community.
And it's a, it's areally beautiful model.
It's a really beautiful, thisis your, the wisdom of being
(37:39):
an elder in these spacesis that you're calling our
community to a different way.
To a different pathway.
That's what I hear from you.
And so I don't, I'm just, Isay that because I don't know,
I don't know how to judgeif that's a good question
or not, or if we shouldleave that off the table.
barbara carr. (37:55):
I think any question about the past that's
pertaining to this, it, Ialways just put it on the table.
Just let's just do this.
mike. (38:05):
Okay.
Would you ask for reparationsfrom the Van Winkle or, you
know, the Anderson familyfor what has happened?
barbara carr. (38:14):
All I can say, like I say, is that's the past.
This is the future.
Let's do what's gonna bethe best for the future.
The teaching, theknowledge, information.
How about somebody elseshould know something else.
I'm pretty sure there are someolder people than me and my
(38:34):
sister that, that go back.
Further than what I knowto voice knowledge about,
if any on, on, on our Rockand it's needs to be heard.
I think they should know.
The biggest gathering, I wouldsay would be of a community
(38:56):
meeting, depending on how manypeople you know represent.
I. And just doknowledge training.
We wasn't allowed at theparks or the swimming pools
and all of that's skate rink.
I always wanted tolearn how to skate.
Still don't know how to skate.
I always wanted to learn how toswim, love, water, can't swim.
Those accesses wasn'tavailable for us growing up.
(39:21):
And I was determined thatboth my kids to, teach
them, they're gonna learnhow to skate and they're
going to learn how to swim.
And they do, they, theyknow how to swim and skate.
mike. (39:35):
I ask two questions to every guest that I talk with.
And I'm happy togive some context.
The first question I askis what your fears are.
And so when I say that,I'm curious what are your
fears for this place today?
barbara carr. (39:45):
I don't have any fears.
mike. (39:46):
Why not?
barbara carr. (39:47):
I. I've lived through fear, and like
I say, at my age, I feellike I've experienced any
and everything that can beexperienced through fear.
I never have, I don't have fear.
That's the reason why I justdo what I do like working in
Rogers for the first time,my mother feared for me
(40:10):
working a job that far away.
In a town like Rogers,I didn't have fear.
All I saw was a betterpaying job, more money.
I just never, I've never hadfear or being afraid of future
or what happened in the past.
(40:30):
I don't live like that onebecause fear is stress to me,
and I can't live with stress.
I can't sleep with stress on me.
I can't eat with stress.
I just don't.
I never have.
And it's okay, to get ridof that fear, then get up
(40:50):
and do something about it.
So that's the mindsetthat I have to get.
And I could, I call it anxiety,is what I call it, not fear.
It's anxiety to me.
And to get rid of thatanxiety, either I'm going
to confront it or you can'trun no matter where you go.
(41:11):
That's what I tell people.
I used to tell 'em at thestore, something be going
on and they're afraid.
That's what theysay, I'm afraid.
And it's if you are afraidin your life, you're gonna
be afraid all of your life.
You can't just keep runningbecause it's gonna follow
you wherever you go.
(41:32):
And I've lived likethat all my life.
I do.
I don't depend orcount on anybody.
I am a independent woman, miss.
Independent.
But that's who I am.
I had to be, I don'thave nobody got my back.
You know?
I gotta take care of me.
Yeah.
mike. (41:51):
You know, miss Carr I actually believe you sitting
across the table from you.
The other half of that, andyou've talked about this a
little bit, is I've triedto ask this question of
what is community wholeness?
What does wholenesslook like in this space?
And it's a question thatI've asked all of our guests
'cause I, I would hope thatas a people, as a community,
we are moving towards what itlooks like to find out what
(42:13):
does it look like to be wholein this world, where things
are, as they should havebeen in the very beginning.
And so I'm curious, whenI say that to you, what
does wholeness look like?
I'm curious how youwould respond to that.
barbara carr. (42:25):
I may not be able to answer that.
I really don't have ananswer for that because
everybody's different.
Everybody's got their ownopinion, their mindset, people,
some choose to live in the past.
I don't choose to livein a past, but I don't
like change either.
But if that's the flow that Ihave to go with, then that's
(42:47):
what I'm gonna go with.
That's, I don't havean answer for that.
I really don't, because likeI say, I don't judge others
in the way they live, thethings they do, places they go.
I just, I'm one, I tendto mind my own business.
I don't, once you tell mesomething you've confided
(43:10):
in me and I'm one that seeit all the way to 100%.
I'm just that person.
If I say I'm gonna do something,whether I want it and I don't
feel it, I'm going to do itanyway because I already said
that's what I'm going to do andI'm gonna do what I'm gonna do.
If everybody elsecould be like that.
Do what you say.
(43:31):
Say it, do it.
Handle your business.
Handle the situation.
Handle the problem.
But I can't speakfor everybody else.
I only can speak for me.
mike. (43:44):
What does wholeness look like to you?
barbara carr. (43:46):
There is no such thing as wholeness.
I experienced a lot inlife and there's always
a slice missing, like apie, like a piece of cake.
You take that one piece outof there and everything else
around it at a fall apart.
Every time, every singletime I've experienced
that, I did at one time,maybe more, try to fix it.
(44:09):
It wasn't fixable, didn'twanna be fixable, and I
just, you just, sometimes youjust have to just walk away
and let it be and pray thateverything just works out.
I don't know.
I don't have goodanswers to those serious
questions like that.
'cause that's speakingfor everybody else.
And I just speak for me, whatmight be right for me might not
(44:33):
be the same and Right for you.
Yeah, I don't know.
And my advice I choose just tokeep it to myself, you know?
I don't know.
I'll be honest.
I don't, I really don'thave an answer for that one.
mike. (44:47):
Mrs. Carr I'm incredibly grateful for the opportunity
to sit at this table withyou and to hear your story.
Thank you for yourcourage to share it.
Thank you for your graceand the humility that you
extend into our world.
And I'm just really honoredto be able to hear your story.
So thank you for sharing.
barbara carr. (45:02):
I thank you for asking me.
I appreciate that.
I really do.
Maybe by my birthday in nextmonth that I'll have knowledge
that I did have something tolive for or make something
better in somebody else's life.
And that's all that concerns me.
I'm positive.
I try to be positive.
Whether I'm feelinggood or bad, I'm
mike. (45:22):
i'm thankful that you're willing to share those, so
barbara carr. (45:25):
I appreciate y'all.
I really do.
mike. (45:27):
Thank you.
I would say there's akind of stillness after
a story like this.
Not the quiet of avoidance,but the silence that follows
truth, the kind that asks usto sit with what we've heard.
Barbara didn't just sharefamily history today.
She offered us a mapback to what was lost.
(45:47):
Through her voice, we remembera man, Aaron Anderson, rock
Van Winkle, a formerly enslavedbuilder who helped shape
the physical and culturallandscape of northwest Arkansas.
A man whose name like so manyothers was nearly erased,
and yet here in this finalepisode, his name is spoken.
It is honored, not asa footnote, but as a
part of the foundationof our very community.
(46:10):
In a season that has taken usacross time and terrain through
the histories of indigenousnations, settler expansion, war,
labor, faith, and migration,we end with a story that has
been most excluded, the voicethat was least likely to be
heard, and in hearing it, wereclaim something together as a
community, because if the goalof this season was to speak an
(46:30):
honest history, then Barbara'sstory isn't an addition.
It's the lens, the final threadin a long tapestry that was
never complete without it.
In the time I've spentwith Barbara and in the
deep reflection of herstory, I can say that this
episode has been part ofmy wholeness in this place.
Whether that's totally possibleor not, we can debate, but
for now, this, this story,this arc, this season,
(46:54):
this has been part of mine.
And maybe that's the task infront of us now, to ask the
stories that must be told forour community to be whole,
whose names must be remembered,whose lives must be honored,
and how we move forward, notjust with pride in our past,
but with clarity about whatstill needs to be repaired.
I wanna say thank you to Barbarafor your courage and for sharing
(47:15):
your story with us and for beingthis season's last guest, the
last voice to speak into thestory of Northwest Arkansas.
Next week we'll finish ourseason with a summary of all
that we've walked through,what we've learned, and what
going forward can look like.
Until then, I wanna saythank you for listening
and thank you for being themost important part of what
our community is becoming.
(47:36):
This is the underview,an exploration in the
shaping of our place.
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