October 21, 2025 • 52 mins
If chemistry has ever fooled you into thinking you’ve found closeness, this conversation offers a new map. We break down intimacy into a sequence that actually works—know, trust, rely, commit, then touch—and unpack why flipping that order can feel amazing at first and empty soon after. Along the way, we add the missing layers: emotional safety that makes honesty possible, and intellectual curiosity that keeps two minds playful, challenged, and aligned.
With Melissa’s therapist lens, we explore how attachment styles influence the way we seek or avoid closeness. Secure, anxious, avoidant, and disorganized patterns can make the same moment feel safe to one partner and threatening to another. The good news: these patterns aren’t destiny. Through self-awareness, therapy, and repeated positive experiences, couples can move toward secure connection. We offer practical language to lower defensiveness—asking “Do you want listening or feedback?”—and simple rituals that stabilize trust, like setting a clear time to reconnect when one person needs space.
We also tackle common friction points between men and women without caricatures or clichés. Many men are trained to prioritize the mission over emotion; many women need emotional responsiveness to feel bonded. Translation helps: a headline share without a forced deep dive, a hug while taking space, and clarity that “it’s not you.” We talk about depending on a partner without collapsing into dependency, repairing after missteps, and how small, consistent follow-through builds deep security over time. If you’re wondering how to feel seen, not just close, you’ll leave with steps you can try tonight.
If this sparked reflection, share it with someone you care about, subscribe for more candid conversations, and leave a review with one insight you’re planning to practice this week.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (01:16):
We're back for another episode of The
Unmentionables.
And this time we're going to betalking about intimacy.
We use the word intimacy all thetime in dating, marriage, even
friendship.
But most people don't actuallyknow what it feels like to
really be known.
Melissa, as you've often said tome in conversations, intimacy
(01:38):
isn't just about sex orcloseness, it's a much deeper
realm.
So as a therapist, why do youthink we confuse intimacy with
closeness?
SPEAKER_01 (01:46):
Sure, I think that our society has told us that
intimacy is just physicalconnection.
And we don't ever bother toexplore that deeper.
And then we have a physicalconnection with somebody, we
wonder why we still feel likesomething is missing.
SPEAKER_00 (02:06):
So what's your working definition of true
intimacy?
SPEAKER_01 (02:09):
So, you know, years and years and years ago, I read
a book, and it was, I think itwas called How to Not Date a
Jerk.
And the book used, there's a manby the name of Dr.
John Van Epp, and he has the Rammodel.
(02:30):
It's the relationship attachmentmodel.
And the whole premise of thismodel was you had to step
through a progression of gettingto know somebody.
And if you put the cart beforethe horse, it was going to mess
up the ability to truly beintimate.
(02:50):
So his whole theory said thatfirst you need to get to know
somebody.
It's how well do I know you,your inner world, your values,
your beliefs, your goals, yourcharacter.
And it helps to build really thefoundations of trust is do I
(03:10):
truly know who this person is?
And after you know them, thenyou can trust them.
You can be confident in theirreliability, their honesty,
their safety.
After you trust them, then youcan rely on them.
(03:32):
You can depend on them to helpmeet your emotional needs, your
practical needs, relationalneeds.
After they show a consistentpattern of being able to do
those things, that you canreally rely on them, then we can
commit to somebody.
We can dedicate our time, ourresources, all of our energy
(03:56):
into that special relationship.
And then the fifth level to hisrelationship attachment model is
that touch part, that physicalintimacy or sexual contact that
happens in the relationship.
And when we sit back and look atthis, we have to ask ourselves
(04:19):
how many people today actuallyfollow that progression?
SPEAKER_00 (04:23):
Yeah.
And so what do you see withthat?
SPEAKER_01 (04:26):
Well, what we see is that we rush into physical
relationships with peoplewithout any level of commitment.
And then add on top of that, youknow, oh my goodness, are they
cheating?
Because we don't trust them.
And if we don't trust them, it'sbecause we don't really know
(04:46):
their character.
Because if we knew theircharacter, then we would know if
they are being faithful orunfaithful and you know who who
they truly are deep down.
And we're definitely notbuilding a reliance on people
because I don't want to dependon you.
I don't want to becomedependent.
(05:08):
And so when we quickly jump intothat physical realm, we confuse
intensity with intimacy.
SPEAKER_00 (05:19):
Is that sort of the idea of feeling close to someone
but not really feeling seen?
SPEAKER_01 (05:23):
Yeah.
I mean, I think that it's reallyeasy to be physically close to
somebody and then rely on thatin order to feel good about the
relationship.
And what we forget is that justbecause there's a lot of
(05:47):
physical closeness in thebeginning, it's not something
that may always exist.
It's that old statement that,you know, beauty fades, and then
what's left underneath it.
So when we look at really beingseen in a relationship, this is
it's interesting because this isreally where I started to shift
(06:11):
out of this model and look atkind of what's what's my own
model?
What do I believe are theimportant parts of actual deep
intimacy?
And where I landed was, okay,obviously there's this physical
(06:33):
component.
And Epp definitely touches, orVan Epp actually, touches on
this emotional component, youknow, this ability to be able to
share our fears and our dreamsand our insecurities without
shame, the ability to not feeljudged, looking at conflicts
(06:58):
becoming opportunities to justunderstand each other, not have
power struggles and drama forlack of a better term.
And that emotional intimacydeepens trust and should help
both people be more authentic inrelationship.
And when we can be authentic,then we really feel more seen.
(07:23):
And looking at the physical andthe emotional, I still felt like
something was missing.
And that's where I add inintellectual intimacy.
Really seeing someone, seeingtheir mind, being able to engage
(07:46):
in conversations that go deeperand push each other and explore,
and just you know, have thosedeep, deep conversations about
whatever it is, and how that canbe really fulfilling and
energizing, that you can havedeep conversations and that
(08:11):
playful banter, and there's ahigh level of respect there.
And you can really work togetherto create some amazing goals and
connected worldview.
SPEAKER_00 (08:26):
Yeah, it makes a lot of sense.
So when a couple comes to youand says, you know, we're just
not connecting anymore, whatthey might be saying is we've
really stopped feeling safeenough to sort of take it to the
next level.
SPEAKER_01 (08:37):
Yeah.
They're pretty much saying, wegot comfortable.
We got comfortable, we stoppedtrying to connect because we
just didn't feel like it oneday.
And one day turned into moredays, and that became deeper
(08:58):
frustrations that weren't ableto be shared for fear of
judgment or condemnation.
And ultimately, that leads todisconnection, lack of safety,
and people give up.
They lose hope.
SPEAKER_00 (09:16):
So let's let's talk about what's really going on
under the hood because when youdescribe this to clients or you
talk about this in in those kindof scenarios, it almost feels
like attachment is like theoperating system of how this
works.
And so I'm wondering if peopleare sort of predisposed based on
(09:39):
their past to only be able toget to a certain level of
intimacy, to maybe regress attimes.
Like, you know, is there sort ofis there a piece of this that
that goes back to you know, sortof how they've been wired from
past relationships, includingnot just you know, past romantic
(10:03):
relationships, but maybe evenfamilial relationships.
SPEAKER_01 (10:07):
Absolutely.
We know it goes all the way backto the womb.
And those first connections tomom and dad, and the messages
that we receive through thoseattachments.
And absolutely we look at thedifferent attachment styles, you
(10:29):
know, secure, anxious, avoidant,and disorganized.
And how those differentattachment styles impact our
ability to connect.
You know, you look at somebodywho is disorganized and they
(10:50):
have experiences of beingrejected by their primary
caretakers, mom and dad.
And they have a desire maybe forintimacy, but that fear of
rejection takes over.
So they've got really highanxiety in relationships.
It's where we see that push,pull, the defensiveness, the
(11:13):
mistrust, the fight or flightthat happens.
It's a very panicked attachmentof I desperately want this.
And I am so terrified of it thatI don't know what to do.
And, you know, you've got yourpeople who are more avoidant,
(11:34):
and those are the ones that pullback.
They're, you know, they they hadmore distant, unresponsive
parents, and they'reself-sufficient, they're
independent, they don't needanybody.
They're not able to rely onother people, they won't make
themselves vulnerable enough toactually allow somebody in to
(12:01):
help meet those needs.
And you've got your anxiousattachment, and that's where
those parents didn't respondconsistently to needs.
These people seek approval fromothers, that external
validation.
They're never sure whether ornot they're gonna get what they
(12:21):
need.
And these are your stage oneclingers, because if they let
go, you're gonna run.
And then you've got your secureattachment, which was pretty
reliable caregiving.
Got a positive view ofthemselves and other people,
they have no problem relying onother people, depending on
(12:46):
people, allowing people toconnect with them.
And I think what's important tounderstand about these is
there's a lot of crossover andit can be changed.
So just because somebody had anawful childhood where their
needs weren't consistently metdoesn't mean they have to
(13:10):
continue to follow that pattern.
They can unlearn these things,they can grow.
And I think that's what thiscomes back to is how self-aware
is somebody?
How open are they to beingvulnerable and risking, you
(13:34):
know, I might get hurt in this.
And I also might heal throughthis.
How closed off are they?
Because, you know, we've talkedabout this before, where you
can't force somebody to gethelp.
You can't force somebody tochange, but if they want to,
gosh, like the whole world isopen.
SPEAKER_00 (13:57):
Yeah, does that ebb and flow over time?
Is that something that peopleare, you know, willing to
change, and then they kind ofmove out of that space and they
get set back in their waysagain, and then they're willing
to change again, and sort of, Idon't know.
I I always think of the careerpathway models that you see like
on LinkedIn.
A lot of times they'll show youlike the career pathway for your
(14:19):
job that everybody thinks youhave, where it's sort of a
straight line up or stepladderor something like that.
And then it says the careerpathway that you actually have,
and it's just this five-year-olddrawing of like just a you know,
somebody took a crayon and madea bunch of snakes, and it's it
all sort of starts at one placeand it ends up where you wanted
to go, but it took you all kindsof different directions to get
(14:40):
there.
D does that kind of thing happenhere, or are you kind of just
there's a plateau where peopleget to that they just can't go
any further?
SPEAKER_01 (14:48):
You know, I don't believe that there is a plateau.
If somebody wants to go deeper,I think the plateau is what
exists for people that are shutdown, that just can't fathom
being vulnerable.
(15:09):
They write off connection, andand this would really be your
avoidant people that whatever,I'd be fine without you.
Doesn't matter.
And they see relationships andattachment as disposable.
SPEAKER_00 (15:25):
Yeah, so you you said something earlier, and I I
kind of want to throw acurveball back to it.
You talked about the more secureattachment individuals that are
you know open to depending onother people.
And I'm just wondering from aword perspective, do you see a
difference between dependenceand dependent?
SPEAKER_01 (15:43):
So what I see the difference as being is can I
what's the word delegate?
Can I delegate out?
Can I express my needs?
Am I okay to look at thisrelationship and say, you know
(16:05):
what?
I'm okay saying that I do dependon this person for certain
things that I'm willing to placemy trust in them and their
ability to do these things.
Versus dependency being my lifewould end without this person.
(16:30):
I don't know what to do.
I can't be alone, I can't befinancially stable by myself, I
can't do anything by myselfbecause this person is like the
end all and be all of my world.
That's dependency.
But can I depend on this personto do something if I ask?
(16:51):
Can I depend on them to circleback and ask for help if they're
having a hard time?
Can I depend on them to have thegood character that I know, or
at least I thought I knew thatthey had?
That's being able to depend onsomebody that their word is good
(17:12):
and their ability to followthrough is reliable.
SPEAKER_00 (17:16):
Do people usually know where they fall in this,
you know, attachment scale orthis in each of these
categories?
And is it possible that someonecould fall across all of these
categories?
SPEAKER_01 (17:30):
So people know if they want to know.
That's one of those things whereif you are able to self-reflect
and look at a relationship andask yourself, what are the
issues happening here and whyare they happening?
The first question should alwaysbe, what's my role?
(17:52):
How am I impacting this orimpeding it from being better?
So to that one, you know if youwant to know.
And if you're going to therapy,you've probably heard of the
different attachment styles.
You probably have some idea ofwhat you are.
(18:14):
And you're probably prettyaccurate.
I can't remember what the secondpart of your question was.
Can they be all of them?
So, no.
No, you can't be.
You can't be secure anddisorganized.
You can't be secure and anythingelse.
(18:37):
You are either secure or you areone or a combination of the
other three.
SPEAKER_00 (18:44):
And what about those people who physiologically have
decided that closeness equalsdanger?
SPEAKER_01 (18:50):
Well, that's a problem.
Those are not the people thatyou're gonna find in
relationships, or definitely nothealthy ones.
SPEAKER_00 (18:59):
Well, okay.
Thanks for the qualifier becauseI would suggest that there are a
lot of people who are inrelationships for the wrong
reasons.
And closeness equals danger tothem.
SPEAKER_01 (19:09):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (19:10):
I, you know, it's funny because you talk about
this stuff, and I just I see alot of men sort of in that
category where they are willingto keep you at arm's length.
Not that I've dated many men inmy life, like zero, but I
understand how men think, and alot of us have a mother wound.
Yeah, whatever you want to callit.
A lot of us just feel likethere's a certain, you know,
(19:33):
level of emotional closenessthat we'll, you know, put up
with.
And then there's there's just aa point where it's just that
we've had enough of that.
SPEAKER_01 (19:45):
Enough of what?
What what goes through the malemind there?
SPEAKER_00 (19:49):
I think it is it's a lot for us as individuals to
process in the moment.
I think you know, obviously,listen, disclaimer on this: not
every guy is exactly the same.
So you can either agree ordisagree with me, ask your
husband or your brother orwhatever.
SPEAKER_01 (20:10):
Wife, whatever.
SPEAKER_00 (20:12):
Hopefully, your wife is not a guy.
SPEAKER_01 (20:14):
Oh, yeah.
That that would be But I agree,yes.
SPEAKER_00 (20:16):
You can also ask your wife.
SPEAKER_01 (20:18):
If you're a dude, you can ask your wife how she
sees it.
That's yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (20:22):
But I think a lot of guys, it's it the emotional side
of it is we we have a duty, ajob, a predisposition to get the
job done.
And there's no time forfeelings.
And I I will I will classifythis as a former Marine.
(20:42):
And again, I'm sure there areplenty of woke former Marines
out there who are crying intheir wives, you know, skirt
pants all the time.
But as a former Marine, I'm notwired to live in my feelings.
Do I show my feelings?
Absolutely, definitely do.
Do I have emotions?
Yes.
Do I necessarily let myself livein those emotions or in those
(21:06):
feelings?
I do not.
And I know there's a lot of guysout there.
I know personally, just fromseeing interactions and sort of
the way that people are that youknow that we personally know
that are very much the same.
We just we have a mission andwe're out to get it done.
And that mission might be takethe trash out.
That mission might be getthrough the day without killing
(21:28):
someone.
It tongue in cheek, I'm notviolent, unless I have to be.
There's there's a lot of youknow ways to classify this, but
it's basically we gotta get thejob done.
We gotta make it from the timewe wake up to the time we go to
sleep, and then do it all overagain the next day.
And there's enough energyexpended in that that it makes
time spent in emotionalsituations less comfortable.
(21:53):
And I I confess not to know thewoman's mind, but I also can see
with my own eyes and feel withmy own feelings the difference
between how generally, andagain, I'm being very general
here, and you can take me totask over it in the comment
section or whatever you want todo.
But I I have seen and I knowthat it is more difficult for me
(22:18):
and for most men to go down thatroad than it is a woman.
And I'm not saying that womendon't have their own
get-through-the-day jobs and youknow how they handle it, but men
are wired to expect an issue.
We are wired to expect aproblem.
And I feel like the emotionalside of, you know, all of this
(22:43):
is one of those areas where wewe are less prepared to deal
with issues that may come up.
SPEAKER_01 (22:50):
So I think this is so interesting because I think
you touched on a commonmisconception about emotional
intimacy.
And for men, I do think thatlooks different.
I don't, I don't think as women,we're expecting you to pour your
(23:13):
hearts out like our best friendsdo.
We don't want a cry session withyou.
It's I think more that emotionalconnection definitely is aimed
toward.
Can you embrace how I'm made asa woman with my femininity?
(23:38):
Can I be vulnerable?
And can you as a man hold thatand let me explore it?
Can we have honest communicationabout things and not feel like
(23:58):
somebody is hiding things orkeeping things out or avoiding
talking about things?
And another piece of that isreally just consistency in
responsiveness.
You know, can you as a man stayregulated?
Or, you know, as a man, are youyelling at somebody about
(24:21):
something one day and thenanother day you're dismissive of
it?
And, you know, this is thatheart connection where we're
feeling you asked about beingseen earlier, where I'm seen and
I'm safe.
My my feelings are safe, and andI'm accepted for who I am and
(24:48):
and how God created me as afemale and designed me
differently than you as a man.
And I think that this is exactlywhere women end up being
unfaithful, is because they feellonely, they feel insecure.
(25:08):
And even if there is physicalaffection that's happening, if
there is an emotional intimacy,this is where women tend to find
it elsewhere.
SPEAKER_00 (25:19):
Why is that so important for women?
SPEAKER_01 (25:22):
Because we're social connected creatures.
Because to us seeing our heartis what bonds us.
And it it has to do withloneliness.
If I'm dismissed, if I'm, youknow, yelled at or disregarded
(25:47):
or told that, you know, how I'mfeeling or or what I'm thinking
isn't important or it's stupid,or you know, somebody just
doesn't have time for it, itsays to a woman that how I was
created isn't accepted.
(26:08):
I'm not accepted.
I mean, at that rate, it's like,why don't dudes just get with
other dudes?
And chicks can get with otherchicks if if we want somebody
that's the same as us.
But I think the the wholeconcept of being in relationship
is self-sacrifice.
It's recognizing where myweaknesses are and where I need
(26:30):
to open myself up a little bitmore.
And it's sacrificing oftentimessome of our own needs to meet
the needs of our partner andhelp them to feel secure and
seen and heard.
SPEAKER_00 (26:44):
Is there a point where this gets to be too much?
I guess oversharing?
SPEAKER_01 (26:51):
Yeah.
I mean, I think that I thinkthat we have to assess, you
know, are there areas that aretriggering for my partner that,
you know, maybe this is a topic,the the drama of this topic is a
topic that I talk more to mybest friend about.
(27:13):
And I think what we're talkingabout here is truly that heart
connection between a husband anda wife, or you know, a boyfriend
and a girlfriend, partners,right?
And we're talking about does myheart feel safe?
(27:34):
Do I feel like I can exist andnot be judged or condemned or
criticized?
Is my partner gonna comealongside and help me?
And sometimes that means helpingme grow, but we're not saying,
(27:57):
listen to me spill out all myproblems of the day.
I think that's a verysuperficial interpretation of
emotional intimacy.
We're not talking gossip likehe's your best friend.
We're saying, can I share myhopes and my dreams and my fears
(28:17):
that are are deep down in mysoul?
And will you take the time tolisten to me and maybe curb your
need to try to fix it all?
SPEAKER_00 (28:31):
Yeah, I think it's a tough ask for most guys to curb
that very basic instinct to findproblem, fix problem, solve
problem, move on to nextproblem.
SPEAKER_01 (28:42):
And it's difficult to ask a woman to curb the need
to be emotionally open becauseif there is not emotional
intimacy, you will never getbeyond basic sexual
gratification.
(29:03):
And then it may as well be anobject.
SPEAKER_00 (29:06):
And on that that topic, you know, the the sexual
gratification piece, that'sessentially fake intimacy,
right?
SPEAKER_01 (29:13):
Yeah, it absolutely is.
And, you know, there's a lot ofpeople that you know we can have
great sex, and that's where itends.
And ultimately, that's whereeventually you realize I'm
really lonely, and there's somuch missing here, and then
(29:35):
people move on to the nextperson they can have great sex
with.
And they never actually find adeep joy and connection in life,
and that's where we talk aboutpeople that, you know, do you
cap out at a certain point?
Do you recognize that you'rejust not willing to open
(29:58):
yourself up to that level ofintimacy?
Because believe me when I say itis a choice.
There's no I can't.
It is an actual conscious choiceto say, I'm safer being alone.
And in that case, it's like,well, maybe you should just go
be alone because otherwise,you're giving false hope to
(30:22):
people.
You're you're out there tellingthem, I want to be in a
relationship.
I I want to connect to you, Iwant to build a future with you.
But really, you don't.
You want to build somethingfalse and hold back the most
intimate, vulnerable parts ofyourself.
And that it's a lie.
SPEAKER_00 (30:42):
Yeah, I think a lot of guys hear that though, and
they they don't know what thatmeans.
The most intimate, vulnerableparts of yourself.
We just you just mentioned thatthis isn't about pouring your
heart out and having a crysection session, but it sounds
like that to a guy when theyhear that.
How how can you explain thatdifferently?
SPEAKER_01 (31:00):
That's a good question.
Because I'm a chick.
So I explain it like a chickwould.
You know, I'm just I'm thinkingthrough this.
And I think what it is is canyou share?
The hopes that you have for thefuture?
Can you share that joint missionwhere you'd like to be heading
(31:22):
together?
You know, can you share when youare struggling with something
without just the moodiness andthe reactivity and, you know,
somewhat expecting somebody tobe able to just kind of read
that there's a problem?
But are you willing to share theproblem and have the safety of
(31:42):
knowing, you know, I can tellthis person that I'm having a
hard time with this and they'renot going to need to fix it.
They're not going to make medive down the emotional hole of
it, but I can say, hey, look,I'm struggling with this right
now.
SPEAKER_00 (31:59):
That would be an ideal world to live in, but I
think unfortunately, that is notthe world that most people live
in.
I think a lot of guys fear orbelieve that as soon as they
start sharing, I'm strugglingwith X, it's going to be, you
know, tissues and chick flicks.
I think a lot of guys don't feelcomfortable saying, this is
(32:20):
something I'm struggling with.
Here's the basic informationaround it.
I don't want to go much deeperthan that and have it
understood.
They feel like a lot of the timethe woman will dive further and
further and further.
Tell me this, tell me why, tellme this, tell me why.
And it just builds tensionbetween the two.
There is no ability to say, thisis what I'm struggling with.
(32:41):
I'm working through it.
Give me space.
And then space is given.
It almost never happens thatway.
SPEAKER_01 (32:46):
And I think that that's where as women, and I
again, I know we're stereotypinghere, men versus women, and it
doesn't always work out thisway.
But as women, we have to curbthat desire to know the details
and, you know, be the nurtureressentially.
And I think a lot of that has todo with a lack of safety, lack
(33:09):
of trust.
Because it's like, well, what doI do in the meantime?
Like if there's space, what doesspace mean?
And how long is that spacegiven?
And can we function as normalhumans and partners while we're
(33:30):
not talking about this issue?
I think all those things are inthere.
And it comes down tocommunication.
I tell people all the time whenyou're communicating with a
partner or your partner'scommunicating with you,
sometimes we have to ask, hey,what's your expectation of me
here?
Do you want me to just listen?
(33:51):
Do you want my feedback?
What's the goal here?
Instead of jumping to aconclusion.
So as a man, if you can say toyour partner, hey, you know, I
just want to fill you in.
I'm struggling with something.
This is what it is.
And we're not talking about I'mstruggling to find a hammer or
(34:12):
screws, right?
We're we're talking about likean actual emotional problem or
struggle with something.
Yes, we we need to improverelationship communication and
give opportunities to share thatand see if it's respected.
SPEAKER_00 (34:36):
And and what about when the guy just doesn't know,
doesn't have a firm grasp onexactly what it is?
Because inevitably, I think Ispeak for most husbands out
there, boyfriends, husbands,fiancés on the male side, we
might we might not have all theanswers.
But as soon as we say we'restruggling with something, I I
again I go back to the analogy.
(34:56):
She's running to get the popcornand the ice cream and the
tissues and putting on theHallmark channel in the
background because you know it'stime to go through this deep,
you know, conversation.
And the guy still is trying tofigure it out.
Most men wear their emotions ontheir sleeve.
Even though they try to hide it,you can tell how most men are
feeling.
(35:16):
You can tell when they'reguarded, you can tell when
they're open, you can tell whenthey're happy, when they're sad.
There are very few men who arevery stoic to the point where
you can't tell how they'refeeling.
Most of them are former militaryand probably, you know, special
forces people who are, you know,trained on how to do that.
But most guys, you can tell thatthere's some kind of thing
(35:39):
there, and maybe I just don'tpoke that bear.
SPEAKER_01 (35:41):
And I would encourage those men to be able
to say, I'm struggling withsomething.
I can't quite put my finger onit, but I just want you to know
I'm having a hard time and it'snot you.
I think as women, most of usquestion, what did I do?
SPEAKER_00 (36:00):
Yeah.
And I think that only escalatesthe situation, right?
Because the next piece of thatis if all the answers aren't
presented at the time, then itbecomes you're sitting across
the dinner table, and and youknow, the person across from you
who you've given as much of theinformation as you have, but
maybe not all the details thatthey need, is going through all
of the worst possible scenariosin their mind and going down
(36:24):
this rabbit hole of negativity,and it just builds that tension
between two people.
So, how do you solve for that?
SPEAKER_01 (36:32):
It's super interesting because you know,
that probably was how I used tobe.
And, you know, these days,having done so much of my own
self-re-reflection andexploration, I know when it has
nothing to do with me.
And so it's hard for me to kindof put myself back in that
situation.
(36:53):
And my encouragement to womenwould be this is where trust
comes in and why it is soimportant to know the character
of the person that you'resitting there with.
Because then if you know theircharacter, then you should trust
(37:16):
them enough to see okay, youknow what, they're having a hard
time with something.
It doesn't have anything to dowith me, so let's carry on.
And I think the hardest part ofthat is always like not knowing
what what to do in the meantime.
You know, if if a dude wantsspace, you know, where is their
(37:41):
ability to still recognize, youknow, that as a female, whether
I need space or not, she isfeeling lonely.
She is maybe feeling like shedoesn't matter, or you know,
that she's unwanted.
So can I have my emotionalissue?
(38:02):
And maybe you can answer thisquestion, you know, as a dude,
can you have your emotionalissue and still give her a hug
so that she knows she stillmatters?
SPEAKER_00 (38:13):
I mean, of course, I think there's an element to
that, you know, that just it maynot be the first thing that's on
their mind as they're workingthrough stuff is to put your
needs ahead of their own.
Probably is the right thing todo.
SPEAKER_01 (38:25):
That's growth right there.
SPEAKER_00 (38:27):
So for people that's never felt the kind of you know
safety that you're talking aboutin the in the perfect world
scenario of someone who's got itall figured out and and is in
that secure you know level, Iguess, of attachment.
SPEAKER_01 (38:41):
Not many, just for the record.
SPEAKER_00 (38:43):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (38:43):
If any.
SPEAKER_00 (38:44):
I would imagine.
SPEAKER_01 (38:45):
Right.
We're all a little broken.
SPEAKER_00 (38:46):
Who haven't felt that kind of safety.
What what's the first step thatthey can take to try to heal and
and really get to a place wherethey can practice true, true
intimacy?
SPEAKER_01 (38:57):
Sure.
Well, I mean, of course, I thinktherapy is kind of important.
SPEAKER_00 (39:02):
Yeah, Heart for Change Counseling for anybody
who's listening to this in thePA area.
SPEAKER_01 (39:09):
I definitely think that understanding some of those
inner wounds that impacted youas a child and your foundational
way of attaching and recognizingwhat your issues are.
Come to terms with the factthat, you know, you can be a
(39:30):
real ass and you shut people outand you isolate and recognize
that that leaves other peoplefeeling unwanted and alone.
And I would hope that in arelationship where people are
(39:51):
trying to have an intimateconnection, that when you
recognize you're hurting thisperson, not intentionally, but
when you're able to recognizethat intentional or not, your
actions are harming the personthat you claim to love, and are
(40:13):
impacting then their ability toconnect or interact with you.
I would I would hope that reallove says I don't want to cause
harm, and that one mightapologize for causing
(40:35):
unintentional harm and then seekto reconnect and help that
person to feel more loved andwanted and important honestly
(40:55):
and valued, and that right therehelps to build trust because
when we have negativeexperiences, we're gonna stick
with what we know.
And it takes repeated positiveexperiences to override the
negative ones.
But if we're unwilling to givesomeone the opportunity to show
(41:19):
something different, then we mayas well just check out.
SPEAKER_00 (41:23):
How do we how do we create relationships that that
don't punish honesty?
Because sometimes it is you.
Yeah.
Sometimes it is you.
And sometimes the fact that it'syou doesn't necessarily mean
it's something that you cancontrol or even should control
or that you've even done.
It's just something that theother person has to work
through.
And, you know, being able to saythat is something I think a lot
(41:45):
of people, both men and women,don't have.
It's not, it's not there.
You don't have the freedom, atleast in your minds, to say,
you're you're bothering me.
SPEAKER_01 (41:54):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (41:54):
We were at the Sebastian Manascalco show a few
weeks ago, I bought a pair ofgloves.
And on those gloves, I don'tknow if you noticed, but on the
middle finger, it says youbother me.
SPEAKER_01 (42:04):
Yeah.
Well, and I think the realityis, right, if you're in a
relationship where someonebothers you more, and we talk,
we talked about the scales here,right?
The scales are always moving.
And if they bother you more thanthey build you up and bring you
(42:25):
joy, that's a problem.
SPEAKER_00 (42:27):
Yeah, I don't know that I was suggesting that if
you because that's a badrelationship, right?
That's terrible.
But we all get on each other'snerves sometimes.
SPEAKER_01 (42:36):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (42:36):
We all we all do.
Anyone that says that theirpartner doesn't get on their
nerves is they're lying.
They're lying.
Absolute falsehood.
You're a liar.
You need to go to church andhope you don't catch fire.
Liar, liar, pants on fire.
SPEAKER_01 (42:51):
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (42:51):
You're 100% wrong.
Well, does it be a good thing?
That person on the other side ofthe table bothers you sometimes.
SPEAKER_01 (42:56):
Does it does it always need to be said though?
SPEAKER_00 (42:58):
No, but that's that is where I guess I'm coming from
with guys is that sometimes youbother us.
SPEAKER_01 (43:05):
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (43:06):
Sometimes your emotions are a problem for us.
And we don't want to add tothat.
So we just go, okay, we're justgonna go over here and sure out
tinker or build something orplay a game or something, coach
soccer and stay away from me.
SPEAKER_01 (43:22):
Right.
And you know, as women, we feelthe same way.
Sometimes y'all just areinsensitive and inconsiderate,
and y'all could just sometimesbe assholes.
And we want space.
And I think what you said aboutsafety is again, gosh, it all
(43:44):
goes back to trust.
Do I trust that I can share withthis person that I'm just
annoyed today?
I'm annoyed.
I want to be left alone.
So I'm gonna go over here anddeal with my shit.
(44:04):
And that at the end of the day,I can then walk up to my partner
and give them a hug and squeezethem tight and hold them or kiss
them like you actually mean it,and that everything is okay
because now we've come backtogether.
(44:26):
I've dealt with my stuff, you'veleft me alone.
Maybe it's saying thank youevery now and again.
And it balances things outbecause if all somebody hears is
you're a problem and they don'tget the positive reinforcement,
and this ties into the wholeworld of love languages.
But if they're always gettingyou suck, it creates distance.
(44:55):
And I know, especially forwomen, once we start
disconnecting, we are gone longbefore we're gone.
Because we we check out anddisconnect and lose hope.
SPEAKER_00 (45:09):
Yeah, I think a lot of guys are waiting for that to
happen.
SPEAKER_01 (45:11):
I'm sure they are because I'm sure they're not
communicating, and they don'tfeel safe because they're not
sure what the response is gonnabe, so they don't even try.
And there's a lot of women thatthat can say it over and over
and over again a million times.
See me, touch me, hold me,notice me, want me, connect with
(45:36):
me.
And then when they're finallydone, the dudes sit there like,
what just happened?
Where did that come from?
Because they didn't payattention the whole time.
SPEAKER_00 (45:47):
Well, maybe intimacy isn't something that you find,
it's something that you sortlearn to survive, or create.
SPEAKER_01 (45:55):
This is interesting because I I work with uh quite a
few men in our age range, menthat are are younger and in the
next generation, and I've workedwith men that are older.
And I really think this is agenerational component here
because I see men in ourgeneration who are a lot like
(46:20):
you, and like this doesn'tcompute, and then I see men who
have really done a lot of oh,they've messed up a lot, and
recognized, okay, yes, man,woman, very different.
(46:41):
How can I learn to respect thosedifferences and give a little so
that I can get a lot?
And there's a masculine-femininebalance to that of a woman
feeling safe and secure withinthat masculinity, and the man
(47:08):
being able to receive love andnurture from the feminine part.
And that's where I go back to alot of these mother wounds that
prevent men from receiving loveand nurture from a woman because
they've been so hurt by theirown mothers.
SPEAKER_00 (47:28):
So I want to encourage listeners to reflect
when was the last time you letsomeone really see you?
Maybe you can leave a comment orshare a story, social media,
send us an email.
As always, we're looking forcontent for future episodes.
So if anything here has stirredanything up, please let us know.
SPEAKER_01 (47:45):
And I would say, you know, if you're gonna
self-reflect and realize thatyou're either losing intimacy,
that one of these pieces ismissing, or you never had it,
because the vast majority ofpeople have never actually
experienced a truly intimateconnection with someone.
I would challenge you to talk tosomeone that knows more about
(48:10):
this.
And as a first step, have aconversation about it with your
partner.
Check in, ask how you're doing.
Yeah, it's a vulnerable step.
I admit it.
At the same time, you're eithergonna stay stagnant and
relationship will fail, oryou're gonna decide it's
something that you want andyou're gonna be willing to learn
(48:32):
and grow and take that firststep.
And any good woman, any good mandoesn't expect for perfection.
Perfection isn't isn'trealistic, but open
communication, honestcommunication, looking at each
other's needs and putting theother person's needs first,
truly hearing what their needsare, you know, those are all
(48:55):
parts of of intimacy.
And I hope that a lot of peoplelistening are reflecting on that
and maybe looking at at how theycan know better and do better.
We're back for another episode of The
Unmentionables.
And this time we're going to betalking about intimacy.
We use the word intimacy all thetime in dating, marriage, even
friendship.
But most people don't actuallyknow what it feels like to
really be known.
Melissa, as you've often said tome in conversations, intimacy
(01:38):
isn't just about sex orcloseness, it's a much deeper
realm.
So as a therapist, why do youthink we confuse intimacy with
closeness?
SPEAKER_01 (01:46):
Sure, I think that our society has told us that
intimacy is just physicalconnection.
And we don't ever bother toexplore that deeper.
And then we have a physicalconnection with somebody, we
wonder why we still feel likesomething is missing.
SPEAKER_00 (02:06):
So what's your working definition of true
intimacy?
SPEAKER_01 (02:09):
So, you know, years and years and years ago, I read
a book, and it was, I think itwas called How to Not Date a
Jerk.
And the book used, there's a manby the name of Dr.
John Van Epp, and he has the Rammodel.
(02:30):
It's the relationship attachmentmodel.
And the whole premise of thismodel was you had to step
through a progression of gettingto know somebody.
And if you put the cart beforethe horse, it was going to mess
up the ability to truly beintimate.
(02:50):
So his whole theory said thatfirst you need to get to know
somebody.
It's how well do I know you,your inner world, your values,
your beliefs, your goals, yourcharacter.
And it helps to build really thefoundations of trust is do I
(03:10):
truly know who this person is?
And after you know them, thenyou can trust them.
You can be confident in theirreliability, their honesty,
their safety.
After you trust them, then youcan rely on them.
(03:32):
You can depend on them to helpmeet your emotional needs, your
practical needs, relationalneeds.
After they show a consistentpattern of being able to do
those things, that you canreally rely on them, then we can
commit to somebody.
We can dedicate our time, ourresources, all of our energy
(03:56):
into that special relationship.
And then the fifth level to hisrelationship attachment model is
that touch part, that physicalintimacy or sexual contact that
happens in the relationship.
And when we sit back and look atthis, we have to ask ourselves
(04:19):
how many people today actuallyfollow that progression?
SPEAKER_00 (04:23):
Yeah.
And so what do you see withthat?
SPEAKER_01 (04:26):
Well, what we see is that we rush into physical
relationships with peoplewithout any level of commitment.
And then add on top of that, youknow, oh my goodness, are they
cheating?
Because we don't trust them.
And if we don't trust them, it'sbecause we don't really know
(04:46):
their character.
Because if we knew theircharacter, then we would know if
they are being faithful orunfaithful and you know who who
they truly are deep down.
And we're definitely notbuilding a reliance on people
because I don't want to dependon you.
I don't want to becomedependent.
(05:08):
And so when we quickly jump intothat physical realm, we confuse
intensity with intimacy.
SPEAKER_00 (05:19):
Is that sort of the idea of feeling close to someone
but not really feeling seen?
SPEAKER_01 (05:23):
Yeah.
I mean, I think that it's reallyeasy to be physically close to
somebody and then rely on thatin order to feel good about the
relationship.
And what we forget is that justbecause there's a lot of
(05:47):
physical closeness in thebeginning, it's not something
that may always exist.
It's that old statement that,you know, beauty fades, and then
what's left underneath it.
So when we look at really beingseen in a relationship, this is
it's interesting because this isreally where I started to shift
(06:11):
out of this model and look atkind of what's what's my own
model?
What do I believe are theimportant parts of actual deep
intimacy?
And where I landed was, okay,obviously there's this physical
(06:33):
component.
And Epp definitely touches, orVan Epp actually, touches on
this emotional component, youknow, this ability to be able to
share our fears and our dreamsand our insecurities without
shame, the ability to not feeljudged, looking at conflicts
(06:58):
becoming opportunities to justunderstand each other, not have
power struggles and drama forlack of a better term.
And that emotional intimacydeepens trust and should help
both people be more authentic inrelationship.
And when we can be authentic,then we really feel more seen.
(07:23):
And looking at the physical andthe emotional, I still felt like
something was missing.
And that's where I add inintellectual intimacy.
Really seeing someone, seeingtheir mind, being able to engage
(07:46):
in conversations that go deeperand push each other and explore,
and just you know, have thosedeep, deep conversations about
whatever it is, and how that canbe really fulfilling and
energizing, that you can havedeep conversations and that
(08:11):
playful banter, and there's ahigh level of respect there.
And you can really work togetherto create some amazing goals and
connected worldview.
SPEAKER_00 (08:26):
Yeah, it makes a lot of sense.
So when a couple comes to youand says, you know, we're just
not connecting anymore, whatthey might be saying is we've
really stopped feeling safeenough to sort of take it to the
next level.
SPEAKER_01 (08:37):
Yeah.
They're pretty much saying, wegot comfortable.
We got comfortable, we stoppedtrying to connect because we
just didn't feel like it oneday.
And one day turned into moredays, and that became deeper
(08:58):
frustrations that weren't ableto be shared for fear of
judgment or condemnation.
And ultimately, that leads todisconnection, lack of safety,
and people give up.
They lose hope.
SPEAKER_00 (09:16):
So let's let's talk about what's really going on
under the hood because when youdescribe this to clients or you
talk about this in in those kindof scenarios, it almost feels
like attachment is like theoperating system of how this
works.
And so I'm wondering if peopleare sort of predisposed based on
(09:39):
their past to only be able toget to a certain level of
intimacy, to maybe regress attimes.
Like, you know, is there sort ofis there a piece of this that
that goes back to you know, sortof how they've been wired from
past relationships, includingnot just you know, past romantic
(10:03):
relationships, but maybe evenfamilial relationships.
SPEAKER_01 (10:07):
Absolutely.
We know it goes all the way backto the womb.
And those first connections tomom and dad, and the messages
that we receive through thoseattachments.
And absolutely we look at thedifferent attachment styles, you
(10:29):
know, secure, anxious, avoidant,and disorganized.
And how those differentattachment styles impact our
ability to connect.
You know, you look at somebodywho is disorganized and they
(10:50):
have experiences of beingrejected by their primary
caretakers, mom and dad.
And they have a desire maybe forintimacy, but that fear of
rejection takes over.
So they've got really highanxiety in relationships.
It's where we see that push,pull, the defensiveness, the
(11:13):
mistrust, the fight or flightthat happens.
It's a very panicked attachmentof I desperately want this.
And I am so terrified of it thatI don't know what to do.
And, you know, you've got yourpeople who are more avoidant,
(11:34):
and those are the ones that pullback.
They're, you know, they they hadmore distant, unresponsive
parents, and they'reself-sufficient, they're
independent, they don't needanybody.
They're not able to rely onother people, they won't make
themselves vulnerable enough toactually allow somebody in to
(12:01):
help meet those needs.
And you've got your anxiousattachment, and that's where
those parents didn't respondconsistently to needs.
These people seek approval fromothers, that external
validation.
They're never sure whether ornot they're gonna get what they
(12:21):
need.
And these are your stage oneclingers, because if they let
go, you're gonna run.
And then you've got your secureattachment, which was pretty
reliable caregiving.
Got a positive view ofthemselves and other people,
they have no problem relying onother people, depending on
(12:46):
people, allowing people toconnect with them.
And I think what's important tounderstand about these is
there's a lot of crossover andit can be changed.
So just because somebody had anawful childhood where their
needs weren't consistently metdoesn't mean they have to
(13:10):
continue to follow that pattern.
They can unlearn these things,they can grow.
And I think that's what thiscomes back to is how self-aware
is somebody?
How open are they to beingvulnerable and risking, you
(13:34):
know, I might get hurt in this.
And I also might heal throughthis.
How closed off are they?
Because, you know, we've talkedabout this before, where you
can't force somebody to gethelp.
You can't force somebody tochange, but if they want to,
gosh, like the whole world isopen.
SPEAKER_00 (13:57):
Yeah, does that ebb and flow over time?
Is that something that peopleare, you know, willing to
change, and then they kind ofmove out of that space and they
get set back in their waysagain, and then they're willing
to change again, and sort of, Idon't know.
I I always think of the careerpathway models that you see like
on LinkedIn.
A lot of times they'll show youlike the career pathway for your
(14:19):
job that everybody thinks youhave, where it's sort of a
straight line up or stepladderor something like that.
And then it says the careerpathway that you actually have,
and it's just this five-year-olddrawing of like just a you know,
somebody took a crayon and madea bunch of snakes, and it's it
all sort of starts at one placeand it ends up where you wanted
to go, but it took you all kindsof different directions to get
(14:40):
there.
D does that kind of thing happenhere, or are you kind of just
there's a plateau where peopleget to that they just can't go
any further?
SPEAKER_01 (14:48):
You know, I don't believe that there is a plateau.
If somebody wants to go deeper,I think the plateau is what
exists for people that are shutdown, that just can't fathom
being vulnerable.
(15:09):
They write off connection, andand this would really be your
avoidant people that whatever,I'd be fine without you.
Doesn't matter.
And they see relationships andattachment as disposable.
SPEAKER_00 (15:25):
Yeah, so you you said something earlier, and I I
kind of want to throw acurveball back to it.
You talked about the more secureattachment individuals that are
you know open to depending onother people.
And I'm just wondering from aword perspective, do you see a
difference between dependenceand dependent?
SPEAKER_01 (15:43):
So what I see the difference as being is can I
what's the word delegate?
Can I delegate out?
Can I express my needs?
Am I okay to look at thisrelationship and say, you know
(16:05):
what?
I'm okay saying that I do dependon this person for certain
things that I'm willing to placemy trust in them and their
ability to do these things.
Versus dependency being my lifewould end without this person.
(16:30):
I don't know what to do.
I can't be alone, I can't befinancially stable by myself, I
can't do anything by myselfbecause this person is like the
end all and be all of my world.
That's dependency.
But can I depend on this personto do something if I ask?
(16:51):
Can I depend on them to circleback and ask for help if they're
having a hard time?
Can I depend on them to have thegood character that I know, or
at least I thought I knew thatthey had?
That's being able to depend onsomebody that their word is good
(17:12):
and their ability to followthrough is reliable.
SPEAKER_00 (17:16):
Do people usually know where they fall in this,
you know, attachment scale orthis in each of these
categories?
And is it possible that someonecould fall across all of these
categories?
SPEAKER_01 (17:30):
So people know if they want to know.
That's one of those things whereif you are able to self-reflect
and look at a relationship andask yourself, what are the
issues happening here and whyare they happening?
The first question should alwaysbe, what's my role?
(17:52):
How am I impacting this orimpeding it from being better?
So to that one, you know if youwant to know.
And if you're going to therapy,you've probably heard of the
different attachment styles.
You probably have some idea ofwhat you are.
(18:14):
And you're probably prettyaccurate.
I can't remember what the secondpart of your question was.
Can they be all of them?
So, no.
No, you can't be.
You can't be secure anddisorganized.
You can't be secure and anythingelse.
(18:37):
You are either secure or you areone or a combination of the
other three.
SPEAKER_00 (18:44):
And what about those people who physiologically have
decided that closeness equalsdanger?
SPEAKER_01 (18:50):
Well, that's a problem.
Those are not the people thatyou're gonna find in
relationships, or definitely nothealthy ones.
SPEAKER_00 (18:59):
Well, okay.
Thanks for the qualifier becauseI would suggest that there are a
lot of people who are inrelationships for the wrong
reasons.
And closeness equals danger tothem.
SPEAKER_01 (19:09):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (19:10):
I, you know, it's funny because you talk about
this stuff, and I just I see alot of men sort of in that
category where they are willingto keep you at arm's length.
Not that I've dated many men inmy life, like zero, but I
understand how men think, and alot of us have a mother wound.
Yeah, whatever you want to callit.
A lot of us just feel likethere's a certain, you know,
(19:33):
level of emotional closenessthat we'll, you know, put up
with.
And then there's there's just aa point where it's just that
we've had enough of that.
SPEAKER_01 (19:45):
Enough of what?
What what goes through the malemind there?
SPEAKER_00 (19:49):
I think it is it's a lot for us as individuals to
process in the moment.
I think you know, obviously,listen, disclaimer on this: not
every guy is exactly the same.
So you can either agree ordisagree with me, ask your
husband or your brother orwhatever.
SPEAKER_01 (20:10):
Wife, whatever.
SPEAKER_00 (20:12):
Hopefully, your wife is not a guy.
SPEAKER_01 (20:14):
Oh, yeah.
That that would be But I agree,yes.
SPEAKER_00 (20:16):
You can also ask your wife.
SPEAKER_01 (20:18):
If you're a dude, you can ask your wife how she
sees it.
That's yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (20:22):
But I think a lot of guys, it's it the emotional side
of it is we we have a duty, ajob, a predisposition to get the
job done.
And there's no time forfeelings.
And I I will I will classifythis as a former Marine.
(20:42):
And again, I'm sure there areplenty of woke former Marines
out there who are crying intheir wives, you know, skirt
pants all the time.
But as a former Marine, I'm notwired to live in my feelings.
Do I show my feelings?
Absolutely, definitely do.
Do I have emotions?
Yes.
Do I necessarily let myself livein those emotions or in those
(21:06):
feelings?
I do not.
And I know there's a lot of guysout there.
I know personally, just fromseeing interactions and sort of
the way that people are that youknow that we personally know
that are very much the same.
We just we have a mission andwe're out to get it done.
And that mission might be takethe trash out.
That mission might be getthrough the day without killing
(21:28):
someone.
It tongue in cheek, I'm notviolent, unless I have to be.
There's there's a lot of youknow ways to classify this, but
it's basically we gotta get thejob done.
We gotta make it from the timewe wake up to the time we go to
sleep, and then do it all overagain the next day.
And there's enough energyexpended in that that it makes
time spent in emotionalsituations less comfortable.
(21:53):
And I I confess not to know thewoman's mind, but I also can see
with my own eyes and feel withmy own feelings the difference
between how generally, andagain, I'm being very general
here, and you can take me totask over it in the comment
section or whatever you want todo.
But I I have seen and I knowthat it is more difficult for me
(22:18):
and for most men to go down thatroad than it is a woman.
And I'm not saying that womendon't have their own
get-through-the-day jobs and youknow how they handle it, but men
are wired to expect an issue.
We are wired to expect aproblem.
And I feel like the emotionalside of, you know, all of this
(22:43):
is one of those areas where wewe are less prepared to deal
with issues that may come up.
SPEAKER_01 (22:50):
So I think this is so interesting because I think
you touched on a commonmisconception about emotional
intimacy.
And for men, I do think thatlooks different.
I don't, I don't think as women,we're expecting you to pour your
(23:13):
hearts out like our best friendsdo.
We don't want a cry session withyou.
It's I think more that emotionalconnection definitely is aimed
toward.
Can you embrace how I'm made asa woman with my femininity?
(23:38):
Can I be vulnerable?
And can you as a man hold thatand let me explore it?
Can we have honest communicationabout things and not feel like
(23:58):
somebody is hiding things orkeeping things out or avoiding
talking about things?
And another piece of that isreally just consistency in
responsiveness.
You know, can you as a man stayregulated?
Or, you know, as a man, are youyelling at somebody about
(24:21):
something one day and thenanother day you're dismissive of
it?
And, you know, this is thatheart connection where we're
feeling you asked about beingseen earlier, where I'm seen and
I'm safe.
My my feelings are safe, and andI'm accepted for who I am and
(24:48):
and how God created me as afemale and designed me
differently than you as a man.
And I think that this is exactlywhere women end up being
unfaithful, is because they feellonely, they feel insecure.
(25:08):
And even if there is physicalaffection that's happening, if
there is an emotional intimacy,this is where women tend to find
it elsewhere.
SPEAKER_00 (25:19):
Why is that so important for women?
SPEAKER_01 (25:22):
Because we're social connected creatures.
Because to us seeing our heartis what bonds us.
And it it has to do withloneliness.
If I'm dismissed, if I'm, youknow, yelled at or disregarded
(25:47):
or told that, you know, how I'mfeeling or or what I'm thinking
isn't important or it's stupid,or you know, somebody just
doesn't have time for it, itsays to a woman that how I was
created isn't accepted.
(26:08):
I'm not accepted.
I mean, at that rate, it's like,why don't dudes just get with
other dudes?
And chicks can get with otherchicks if if we want somebody
that's the same as us.
But I think the the wholeconcept of being in relationship
is self-sacrifice.
It's recognizing where myweaknesses are and where I need
(26:30):
to open myself up a little bitmore.
And it's sacrificing oftentimessome of our own needs to meet
the needs of our partner andhelp them to feel secure and
seen and heard.
SPEAKER_00 (26:44):
Is there a point where this gets to be too much?
I guess oversharing?
SPEAKER_01 (26:51):
Yeah.
I mean, I think that I thinkthat we have to assess, you
know, are there areas that aretriggering for my partner that,
you know, maybe this is a topic,the the drama of this topic is a
topic that I talk more to mybest friend about.
(27:13):
And I think what we're talkingabout here is truly that heart
connection between a husband anda wife, or you know, a boyfriend
and a girlfriend, partners,right?
And we're talking about does myheart feel safe?
(27:34):
Do I feel like I can exist andnot be judged or condemned or
criticized?
Is my partner gonna comealongside and help me?
And sometimes that means helpingme grow, but we're not saying,
(27:57):
listen to me spill out all myproblems of the day.
I think that's a verysuperficial interpretation of
emotional intimacy.
We're not talking gossip likehe's your best friend.
We're saying, can I share myhopes and my dreams and my fears
(28:17):
that are are deep down in mysoul?
And will you take the time tolisten to me and maybe curb your
need to try to fix it all?
SPEAKER_00 (28:31):
Yeah, I think it's a tough ask for most guys to curb
that very basic instinct to findproblem, fix problem, solve
problem, move on to nextproblem.
SPEAKER_01 (28:42):
And it's difficult to ask a woman to curb the need
to be emotionally open becauseif there is not emotional
intimacy, you will never getbeyond basic sexual
gratification.
(29:03):
And then it may as well be anobject.
SPEAKER_00 (29:06):
And on that that topic, you know, the the sexual
gratification piece, that'sessentially fake intimacy,
right?
SPEAKER_01 (29:13):
Yeah, it absolutely is.
And, you know, there's a lot ofpeople that you know we can have
great sex, and that's where itends.
And ultimately, that's whereeventually you realize I'm
really lonely, and there's somuch missing here, and then
(29:35):
people move on to the nextperson they can have great sex
with.
And they never actually find adeep joy and connection in life,
and that's where we talk aboutpeople that, you know, do you
cap out at a certain point?
Do you recognize that you'rejust not willing to open
(29:58):
yourself up to that level ofintimacy?
Because believe me when I say itis a choice.
There's no I can't.
It is an actual conscious choiceto say, I'm safer being alone.
And in that case, it's like,well, maybe you should just go
be alone because otherwise,you're giving false hope to
(30:22):
people.
You're you're out there tellingthem, I want to be in a
relationship.
I I want to connect to you, Iwant to build a future with you.
But really, you don't.
You want to build somethingfalse and hold back the most
intimate, vulnerable parts ofyourself.
And that it's a lie.
SPEAKER_00 (30:42):
Yeah, I think a lot of guys hear that though, and
they they don't know what thatmeans.
The most intimate, vulnerableparts of yourself.
We just you just mentioned thatthis isn't about pouring your
heart out and having a crysection session, but it sounds
like that to a guy when theyhear that.
How how can you explain thatdifferently?
SPEAKER_01 (31:00):
That's a good question.
Because I'm a chick.
So I explain it like a chickwould.
You know, I'm just I'm thinkingthrough this.
And I think what it is is canyou share?
The hopes that you have for thefuture?
Can you share that joint missionwhere you'd like to be heading
(31:22):
together?
You know, can you share when youare struggling with something
without just the moodiness andthe reactivity and, you know,
somewhat expecting somebody tobe able to just kind of read
that there's a problem?
But are you willing to share theproblem and have the safety of
(31:42):
knowing, you know, I can tellthis person that I'm having a
hard time with this and they'renot going to need to fix it.
They're not going to make medive down the emotional hole of
it, but I can say, hey, look,I'm struggling with this right
now.
SPEAKER_00 (31:59):
That would be an ideal world to live in, but I
think unfortunately, that is notthe world that most people live
in.
I think a lot of guys fear orbelieve that as soon as they
start sharing, I'm strugglingwith X, it's going to be, you
know, tissues and chick flicks.
I think a lot of guys don't feelcomfortable saying, this is
(32:20):
something I'm struggling with.
Here's the basic informationaround it.
I don't want to go much deeperthan that and have it
understood.
They feel like a lot of the timethe woman will dive further and
further and further.
Tell me this, tell me why, tellme this, tell me why.
And it just builds tensionbetween the two.
There is no ability to say, thisis what I'm struggling with.
(32:41):
I'm working through it.
Give me space.
And then space is given.
It almost never happens thatway.
SPEAKER_01 (32:46):
And I think that that's where as women, and I
again, I know we're stereotypinghere, men versus women, and it
doesn't always work out thisway.
But as women, we have to curbthat desire to know the details
and, you know, be the nurtureressentially.
And I think a lot of that has todo with a lack of safety, lack
(33:09):
of trust.
Because it's like, well, what doI do in the meantime?
Like if there's space, what doesspace mean?
And how long is that spacegiven?
And can we function as normalhumans and partners while we're
(33:30):
not talking about this issue?
I think all those things are inthere.
And it comes down tocommunication.
I tell people all the time whenyou're communicating with a
partner or your partner'scommunicating with you,
sometimes we have to ask, hey,what's your expectation of me
here?
Do you want me to just listen?
(33:51):
Do you want my feedback?
What's the goal here?
Instead of jumping to aconclusion.
So as a man, if you can say toyour partner, hey, you know, I
just want to fill you in.
I'm struggling with something.
This is what it is.
And we're not talking about I'mstruggling to find a hammer or
(34:12):
screws, right?
We're we're talking about likean actual emotional problem or
struggle with something.
Yes, we we need to improverelationship communication and
give opportunities to share thatand see if it's respected.
SPEAKER_00 (34:36):
And and what about when the guy just doesn't know,
doesn't have a firm grasp onexactly what it is?
Because inevitably, I think Ispeak for most husbands out
there, boyfriends, husbands,fiancés on the male side, we
might we might not have all theanswers.
But as soon as we say we'restruggling with something, I I
again I go back to the analogy.
(34:56):
She's running to get the popcornand the ice cream and the
tissues and putting on theHallmark channel in the
background because you know it'stime to go through this deep,
you know, conversation.
And the guy still is trying tofigure it out.
Most men wear their emotions ontheir sleeve.
Even though they try to hide it,you can tell how most men are
feeling.
(35:16):
You can tell when they'reguarded, you can tell when
they're open, you can tell whenthey're happy, when they're sad.
There are very few men who arevery stoic to the point where
you can't tell how they'refeeling.
Most of them are former militaryand probably, you know, special
forces people who are, you know,trained on how to do that.
But most guys, you can tell thatthere's some kind of thing
(35:39):
there, and maybe I just don'tpoke that bear.
SPEAKER_01 (35:41):
And I would encourage those men to be able
to say, I'm struggling withsomething.
I can't quite put my finger onit, but I just want you to know
I'm having a hard time and it'snot you.
I think as women, most of usquestion, what did I do?
SPEAKER_00 (36:00):
Yeah.
And I think that only escalatesthe situation, right?
Because the next piece of thatis if all the answers aren't
presented at the time, then itbecomes you're sitting across
the dinner table, and and youknow, the person across from you
who you've given as much of theinformation as you have, but
maybe not all the details thatthey need, is going through all
of the worst possible scenariosin their mind and going down
(36:24):
this rabbit hole of negativity,and it just builds that tension
between two people.
So, how do you solve for that?
SPEAKER_01 (36:32):
It's super interesting because you know,
that probably was how I used tobe.
And, you know, these days,having done so much of my own
self-re-reflection andexploration, I know when it has
nothing to do with me.
And so it's hard for me to kindof put myself back in that
situation.
(36:53):
And my encouragement to womenwould be this is where trust
comes in and why it is soimportant to know the character
of the person that you'resitting there with.
Because then if you know theircharacter, then you should trust
(37:16):
them enough to see okay, youknow what, they're having a hard
time with something.
It doesn't have anything to dowith me, so let's carry on.
And I think the hardest part ofthat is always like not knowing
what what to do in the meantime.
You know, if if a dude wantsspace, you know, where is their
(37:41):
ability to still recognize, youknow, that as a female, whether
I need space or not, she isfeeling lonely.
She is maybe feeling like shedoesn't matter, or you know,
that she's unwanted.
So can I have my emotionalissue?
(38:02):
And maybe you can answer thisquestion, you know, as a dude,
can you have your emotionalissue and still give her a hug
so that she knows she stillmatters?
SPEAKER_00 (38:13):
I mean, of course, I think there's an element to
that, you know, that just it maynot be the first thing that's on
their mind as they're workingthrough stuff is to put your
needs ahead of their own.
Probably is the right thing todo.
SPEAKER_01 (38:25):
That's growth right there.
SPEAKER_00 (38:27):
So for people that's never felt the kind of you know
safety that you're talking aboutin the in the perfect world
scenario of someone who's got itall figured out and and is in
that secure you know level, Iguess, of attachment.
SPEAKER_01 (38:41):
Not many, just for the record.
SPEAKER_00 (38:43):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (38:43):
If any.
SPEAKER_00 (38:44):
I would imagine.
SPEAKER_01 (38:45):
Right.
We're all a little broken.
SPEAKER_00 (38:46):
Who haven't felt that kind of safety.
What what's the first step thatthey can take to try to heal and
and really get to a place wherethey can practice true, true
intimacy?
SPEAKER_01 (38:57):
Sure.
Well, I mean, of course, I thinktherapy is kind of important.
SPEAKER_00 (39:02):
Yeah, Heart for Change Counseling for anybody
who's listening to this in thePA area.
SPEAKER_01 (39:09):
I definitely think that understanding some of those
inner wounds that impacted youas a child and your foundational
way of attaching and recognizingwhat your issues are.
Come to terms with the factthat, you know, you can be a
(39:30):
real ass and you shut people outand you isolate and recognize
that that leaves other peoplefeeling unwanted and alone.
And I would hope that in arelationship where people are
(39:51):
trying to have an intimateconnection, that when you
recognize you're hurting thisperson, not intentionally, but
when you're able to recognizethat intentional or not, your
actions are harming the personthat you claim to love, and are
(40:13):
impacting then their ability toconnect or interact with you.
I would I would hope that reallove says I don't want to cause
harm, and that one mightapologize for causing
(40:35):
unintentional harm and then seekto reconnect and help that
person to feel more loved andwanted and important honestly
(40:55):
and valued, and that right therehelps to build trust because
when we have negativeexperiences, we're gonna stick
with what we know.
And it takes repeated positiveexperiences to override the
negative ones.
But if we're unwilling to givesomeone the opportunity to show
(41:19):
something different, then we mayas well just check out.
SPEAKER_00 (41:23):
How do we how do we create relationships that that
don't punish honesty?
Because sometimes it is you.
Yeah.
Sometimes it is you.
And sometimes the fact that it'syou doesn't necessarily mean
it's something that you cancontrol or even should control
or that you've even done.
It's just something that theother person has to work
through.
And, you know, being able to saythat is something I think a lot
(41:45):
of people, both men and women,don't have.
It's not, it's not there.
You don't have the freedom, atleast in your minds, to say,
you're you're bothering me.
SPEAKER_01 (41:54):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (41:54):
We were at the Sebastian Manascalco show a few
weeks ago, I bought a pair ofgloves.
And on those gloves, I don'tknow if you noticed, but on the
middle finger, it says youbother me.
SPEAKER_01 (42:04):
Yeah.
Well, and I think the realityis, right, if you're in a
relationship where someonebothers you more, and we talk,
we talked about the scales here,right?
The scales are always moving.
And if they bother you more thanthey build you up and bring you
(42:25):
joy, that's a problem.
SPEAKER_00 (42:27):
Yeah, I don't know that I was suggesting that if
you because that's a badrelationship, right?
That's terrible.
But we all get on each other'snerves sometimes.
SPEAKER_01 (42:36):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (42:36):
We all we all do.
Anyone that says that theirpartner doesn't get on their
nerves is they're lying.
They're lying.
Absolute falsehood.
You're a liar.
You need to go to church andhope you don't catch fire.
Liar, liar, pants on fire.
SPEAKER_01 (42:51):
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (42:51):
You're 100% wrong.
Well, does it be a good thing?
That person on the other side ofthe table bothers you sometimes.
SPEAKER_01 (42:56):
Does it does it always need to be said though?
SPEAKER_00 (42:58):
No, but that's that is where I guess I'm coming from
with guys is that sometimes youbother us.
SPEAKER_01 (43:05):
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (43:06):
Sometimes your emotions are a problem for us.
And we don't want to add tothat.
So we just go, okay, we're justgonna go over here and sure out
tinker or build something orplay a game or something, coach
soccer and stay away from me.
SPEAKER_01 (43:22):
Right.
And you know, as women, we feelthe same way.
Sometimes y'all just areinsensitive and inconsiderate,
and y'all could just sometimesbe assholes.
And we want space.
And I think what you said aboutsafety is again, gosh, it all
(43:44):
goes back to trust.
Do I trust that I can share withthis person that I'm just
annoyed today?
I'm annoyed.
I want to be left alone.
So I'm gonna go over here anddeal with my shit.
(44:04):
And that at the end of the day,I can then walk up to my partner
and give them a hug and squeezethem tight and hold them or kiss
them like you actually mean it,and that everything is okay
because now we've come backtogether.
(44:26):
I've dealt with my stuff, you'veleft me alone.
Maybe it's saying thank youevery now and again.
And it balances things outbecause if all somebody hears is
you're a problem and they don'tget the positive reinforcement,
and this ties into the wholeworld of love languages.
But if they're always gettingyou suck, it creates distance.
(44:55):
And I know, especially forwomen, once we start
disconnecting, we are gone longbefore we're gone.
Because we we check out anddisconnect and lose hope.
SPEAKER_00 (45:09):
Yeah, I think a lot of guys are waiting for that to
happen.
SPEAKER_01 (45:11):
I'm sure they are because I'm sure they're not
communicating, and they don'tfeel safe because they're not
sure what the response is gonnabe, so they don't even try.
And there's a lot of women thatthat can say it over and over
and over again a million times.
See me, touch me, hold me,notice me, want me, connect with
(45:36):
me.
And then when they're finallydone, the dudes sit there like,
what just happened?
Where did that come from?
Because they didn't payattention the whole time.
SPEAKER_00 (45:47):
Well, maybe intimacy isn't something that you find,
it's something that you sortlearn to survive, or create.
SPEAKER_01 (45:55):
This is interesting because I I work with uh quite a
few men in our age range, menthat are are younger and in the
next generation, and I've workedwith men that are older.
And I really think this is agenerational component here
because I see men in ourgeneration who are a lot like
(46:20):
you, and like this doesn'tcompute, and then I see men who
have really done a lot of oh,they've messed up a lot, and
recognized, okay, yes, man,woman, very different.
(46:41):
How can I learn to respect thosedifferences and give a little so
that I can get a lot?
And there's a masculine-femininebalance to that of a woman
feeling safe and secure withinthat masculinity, and the man
(47:08):
being able to receive love andnurture from the feminine part.
And that's where I go back to alot of these mother wounds that
prevent men from receiving loveand nurture from a woman because
they've been so hurt by theirown mothers.
SPEAKER_00 (47:28):
So I want to encourage listeners to reflect
when was the last time you letsomeone really see you?
Maybe you can leave a comment orshare a story, social media,
send us an email.
As always, we're looking forcontent for future episodes.
So if anything here has stirredanything up, please let us know.
SPEAKER_01 (47:45):
And I would say, you know, if you're gonna
self-reflect and realize thatyou're either losing intimacy,
that one of these pieces ismissing, or you never had it,
because the vast majority ofpeople have never actually
experienced a truly intimateconnection with someone.
I would challenge you to talk tosomeone that knows more about
(48:10):
this.
And as a first step, have aconversation about it with your
partner.
Check in, ask how you're doing.
Yeah, it's a vulnerable step.
I admit it.
At the same time, you're eithergonna stay stagnant and
relationship will fail, oryou're gonna decide it's
something that you want andyou're gonna be willing to learn
(48:32):
and grow and take that firststep.
And any good woman, any good mandoesn't expect for perfection.
Perfection isn't isn'trealistic, but open
communication, honestcommunication, looking at each
other's needs and putting theother person's needs first,
truly hearing what their needsare, you know, those are all
(48:55):
parts of of intimacy.
And I hope that a lot of peoplelistening are reflecting on that
and maybe looking at at how theycan know better and do better.
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