We talk with therapist Eddie Shin, LMFT about dissociation, trauma, and why a “cope forever” approach can leave people exhausted and stuck. We explore neurofeedback and Accelerated Resolution Therapy as practical tools that build safety in the brain so deeper healing can happen.
• Eddie’s path into marriage and family therapy through residential treatment work
• Why coping skills help short term but can feel crushing long term
• How trust and connection unlock progress with highly traumatized teens
• Neurofeedback explained as physical therapy for the brain
• How neurofeedback supports emotional regulation and stability
• What ART is and how it compares with EMDR
• Why a directive trauma modality can be safer with dissociation
• Dissociation on a spectrum from zoning out to severe disorders
• What dissociative identity disorder actually is and why media portrayals miss
• Integration defined as internal cooperation rather than erasing parts
• What helps clients feel hope from the first session
• How people find specialized help and what readiness looks like
LINKS
Website: www.healingground-counseling.com/
Instagram: @healingground_counseling
Facebook: Healing Ground Counseling
BIO
Eddie Shin is a licensed marriage and family therapist and founder of Healing Ground Counseling located in Orem, UT. Eddie is passionate about helping people find healing through researched modalities tailored for each individual. His mission is to help people find healing from childhood trauma, trauma of any form, and dissociative disorders, such as dissociative identity disorder (DID). Eddie has worked in private practice for about 4 years and previously worked in a residential treatment center for about 6 years. Eddie graduated with his BA in psychology from Humboldt State University in Arcata, CA and his MS in marriage and family therapy from Capella University, an online university located in Minneapolis, MN. Eddie grew up in Orange County, CA and loves the beach, the redwoods, and the outdoors. Eddie has two wonderful kids and a beautiful wife.
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SPEAKER_02 (00:00):
The average person can dissociate.
And a lot of people actually inthis day and age do.
I mean, scrolling on your phoneis a form of dissociation.
It's getting yourself out ofreality for whatever moment that
you're experiencing.
And it, I mean, sometimes it'sso what dissociation was meant
for is it's something thatyou're it's a defense mechanism
(00:22):
your brain has.
But sometimes it can providethis escape, which is exactly
why it's this defense mechanismis to escape from something
that's harmful.
SPEAKER_01 (00:35):
Welcome to the Upside of Bipolar, where we
uncover the true sources ofbipolar symptoms and share
proven tools for recovery.
I'm your host, MichelleReitinger, number one
international best-sellingauthor of the Upside of Bipolar
Seven Steps to Heal YourDisorder.
In this podcast, I bring yousolo insights from my journey
and guest interviews withleading researchers and experts.
(00:56):
Join us to transform chaos intohope and reclaim your life.
Let's heal together.
Welcome to the upside ofBipolar.
I am your host, MichelleReitinger, and I have an amazing
guest today.
Eddie Shin is a licensedmarriage and family therapist
(01:18):
and founder of Healing GroundCounseling located in Oram,
Utah.
Eddie is passionate abouthelping people find healing
through researched modalitiestailored for each individual.
His mission is to help peoplefind healing from childhood
trauma, trauma of any form, anddissociative disorders, such as
dissociative identity disorder,or DID.
(01:40):
Eddie has worked in privatepractice for about four years
and previously worked in aresidential treatment center for
about six years.
Eddie graduated with a BA inpsychology from Humboldt State
University in Arcata,California, and his MS in
marriage and family therapy fromCapella University, an online
university located inMinneapolis, Minnesota.
(02:00):
Eddie grew up in Orange County,California and loves the beach,
the redwoods, and the outdoors.
Eddie has two wonderful kids anda beautiful wife.
I am so excited to have youhere, Eddie.
Thank you so much for being aguest today.
SPEAKER_02 (02:12):
Yeah, I'm super excited to be here.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (02:15):
And I share your love of, I grew up in California
as well, and I love the beachand I love the redwoods.
So I we have that in common.
SPEAKER_02 (02:23):
Yes.
Nothing like it.
SPEAKER_01 (02:25):
Yeah.
Okay.
So let's start with your story.
Will you share your story withus?
SPEAKER_02 (02:30):
Yeah.
I mean, I guess depending onwhere you want the story and
stuff, I guess growing up,definitely loved, loved learning
about people.
And that was something that Ireally enjoyed and found a
passion in doing.
Was I felt like I was reallyeasy to talk to, really easy to
reason, really easy to get alongwith and stuff.
(02:50):
And I loved hearing otherpeople's stories.
I loved hearing where peoplewere coming from, what kinds of
things were victorious for them,what kinds of things were
challenging for them.
And it was just a naturalpassion that I've had throughout
my life.
And as I started getting intothe point of going to college, I
started trying to figure outwhere I wanted to go, what path
(03:12):
I wanted to go.
Did I want to go the medicalroute?
That was something I wasinterested in.
But then I also was interestedin just the whole group of
psychology and whatnot, thatwhole topic.
And so I started, I startedlooking into that and found it
fascinating.
And then I had a really amazingsupervisor at the treatment
(03:35):
center that I started workingat, which was the first place
that I had real experience withmental health and whatnot.
And she was just amazing.
And she helped me to see that Isee what kinds of passion that I
actually had for therapy.
Like I didn't realize I wantedto become a therapist.
(03:57):
I thought I wanted to be aclinical psychologist, do
psychological tests and researchand things of that nature.
But as she started working withme and as she started asking me
questions, it helped me toreally uncover that I wanted to
do more than that.
That I wanted to actually havethis one-on-one connection with
different people and help themto achieve what they feel is
(04:21):
impossible.
And as she was asking me allsorts of questions, it narrowed
down to where I think a lot likea marriage and family therapist,
which a lot of people findconfusing of what's the
difference between marriage andfamily therapy and social work
and clinical mental healthcounseling and just regular
counseling and whatnot, is withmarriage and family therapy, I
(04:44):
see the person as not just thatperson, but they have a whole
bigger picture of things thatare influencing the different
struggles that they have intheir lives.
So I see things from a verysystemic type of viewpoint.
And that's something she wasable to help me uncover.
And then she mentored me allthroughout all throughout that
(05:06):
process of getting into gradschool, going through grad
school, and even through myinternship and afterwards.
And so she she was just anamazing mentor that helped me
get to where I am today.
And yeah, I'm very grateful forwhere I am because it's a it's a
very fulfilling career for sure.
SPEAKER_01 (05:27):
Yeah.
And I I think the thing thatmade me really want to have you
on the podcast was what you doin your treatment.
When I was first diagnosed backin 1998, I was told right away,
you know, you need to go totherapy.
And the focus of therapy forprobably over a decade of my
treatment was coping.
Like, you know, you need todevelop skills, you need to
(05:48):
develop coping skills because itwas there was an underlying
assumption that my my quoteunquote bipolar disorder
diagnosis meant that I had adisease that I didn't have any
control over.
And so I would have it for therest of my life and I needed to
learn to cope with it.
And I didn't like therapy.
I hated therapy, in fact,because it didn't feel helpful
to me.
The things that the therapistswere, you know, telling me to do
(06:10):
to cope were didn't work.
It didn't help me.
It it actually felt I actuallyfelt worse after most of my
therapy sessions because I wouldgo and talk about the things a
lot, which kind of magnifiedthem in my brain, but I wasn't
being guided towards any kind ofsolution or understanding.
And so I quit for a long time.
(06:32):
Like I I didn't want to do itagain.
And I there was one kind of alast Hail Mary Pass kind of
situation where um I think itwas trying to think.
I think it was about 10 yearsago.
And I we were in a reallydistressing situation as a
family, and I was reallystruggling.
And I was had been doing reallywell for a long time, but the
(06:53):
situation was just kind ofstarting to overwhelm me.
And I had a theastical leader ofour congregation that
recommended therapy, and I wasvery resistant at first, and
he's like, I really think youought to give it a try.
And I found a therapist that hadwas trained in trauma
modalities, and that reallyshifted.
It shifted the way that I lookedat therapy.
I started seeing it as a toolthat I could use to actually
(07:16):
identify the underlying sourcesof my suffering and my distress
and start using it moreproactively to heal because she
was a very proactive therapist.
And when you and I talked thefirst time we met, um, I was
really intrigued by what you doin your practice because that's
your approach.
Your approach is to help givepeople tools to identify, you
(07:37):
know, the underlying sources ofthe distress and then help them
to resolve or integrate, youknow.
And I don't want to put words inyour mouth, but I would love to
hear kind of like let's talkabout where you started in your
therapy, you know, because youworked, I believe it said in for
six years you worked in a atreatment, like a treatment
facility.
(07:57):
Yeah.
Sorry, residential treatment.
And then and then now you'vemoved into your own private
practice.
And I love what you're doing inyour private practice.
So let's start with where youstarted in the residential
treatment facility.
I want to hear about yourexperience there, and then let's
then we'll move into talkingabout what you do now.
SPEAKER_02 (08:12):
Yeah, of course.
So the treatment center that Iworked at, it was I felt like it
was a wonderful place.
And um, the team that I had ofstaff members that would help
the kids out and help them tojust learn daily life skills and
whatnot.
And to be we were the we werebasically the coaches to help
(08:32):
coach them through how to workthrough their difficult
emotions, behaviors, tantrums,whatever it may be.
Things that basically a parentwould do.
A lot of them came fromhouseholds that were pretty
broken, really difficult.
And so they would come herebecause their behavioral
struggles were so big thatsometimes they would get kicked
(08:53):
out of schools and no one wouldknow how to how to really work
with them.
And so getting that connectionwith them really, really helped.
And I saw that, yes, the copingskills worked.
Like we got trained on all likea whole slew of coping skills,
but then like it worked for thatone time, and then it worked the
next time, and then the nexttime, and then sometimes the
(09:16):
kids would know it would workand they would just say, Oh, I
don't want to do that because Ijust don't want to do it.
And they would just get so madabout it.
And sometimes I kind of noticedthat they would get frustrated
that okay, yes, it'll help mefor right now, but like, how is
this gonna help long term andstuff?
And so I first started off inneurofeedback as they moved me
(09:37):
up into learning about doingthat and getting clinical
experience there.
But as I moved into therapy andand everything, that's where I
started having this this thoughtof I want to I want to learn
more about how to help people tonot just cope with their
challenges, but actually find asource of healing, like looking
(09:59):
at the root of the probleminstead of just looking at the
surface.
Because everyone can see whatwhat's happening on the surface,
not everyone can see what'shappening down below.
And before I got really involvedin some of the more trauma
modalities and whatnot, I foundthat like just that genuine
connection with the person isthe starting point of getting
(10:22):
them to be able to open up.
And as I started learning moreabout these trauma modalities,
it started helping theseteenagers that I worked with
uncover a lot of the traumasthat they went through to the
point of where they ended uptransforming into just different
people, which was amazing tosee.
To where sometimes they on paperthey were the more challenging
(10:44):
kids and teens that that wouldcome to the facility.
But then when other therapistswere like, How do you work with
them?
Like, they're some of thehardest kids, like they make my
kids look like the biggestangels in the world and stuff.
And it's like, I mean, I havethis connection with them, like
they know I trust them, theytrust me, I respect them, they
(11:06):
respect me, and they know thatI'm in this for them and with
them, and they're not alone init, and that's where the
progress really comes.
It's it's not just a job, it'smore of no, let's let's connect
in this fundamental level sothat you can get to your best
your Yeah, and coping isexhausting.
SPEAKER_01 (11:31):
You know, for you know, when somebody's struggling
with bipolar symptoms, forexample, the longer you
experience them, the more theeasier it is to start to
recognize the pattern and toexpect it.
And so I I always described itas feeling like I was getting
yanked onto a roller coaster andI just had to hold on white
knuckling it until it was over.
And then I would survey thedamage, you know, and and it's
(11:54):
trying to apply the copingmechanism.
Sometimes you didn't have theemotional capacity to put the
energy forth to do it.
And, you know, like you weresaying with these kids, yes, it
would work, but then there wouldbe times when they were starting
to resist using those copingmechanisms because they're like,
I don't want to do this anymore.
I I'm so tired of coping, andI'm so tired of these feelings.
And the thing that I think iswhat I hear what you're talking
(12:16):
about that is so interesting.
So I'm forgive me, but I want toshare this little story that
came into my mind.
When I was a girl, there was achildren's book called Albert's
Toothache, and these are it'sabout turtles.
And the turtle keeps goingaround telling everybody he has
a toothache, but turtles don'thave teeth, and so nobody would
believe him.
And he's crying, you know,halfway into the book, he's
crying because nobody willbelieve that he has a toothache.
(12:36):
And finally the grandmothercomes and she asks him questions
and discovered he had an injury,another injury, and he didn't
know how to describe it.
And and so, you know, everybodyup to that point thinks he's a
liar, thinks he's trying to getattention, you know, all these
things.
And he was really in pain and heneeded help.
And it was somebody who juststarted asking him questions to
try and get to the bottom of it.
(12:57):
And I think that that's whatyou're describing is instead of
trying to keep teach them tocope with their distress, you
know, it's very easy for us whenwe see somebody acting in a way
that is uncomfortable for us,you know, or that is causing
harm to other people, which isunderstandable, to want to stop
them and to shut it down and tofocus on how do we get that to
(13:18):
stop?
How do we get them to stop?
How do we teach them to stopdoing that instead of, you know,
having some curiosity andlooking and saying, is there
something that's underneath thatthat is, you know, is this a cry
for help?
Is this, is this distress thatneeds to be, you know, looked
into?
And so I love what you'resharing about you taking the
time to get trained inmodalities and learn more about
(13:40):
trauma and then helping them touncover their trauma and working
with them to actually heal andresolve it rather than just
coping with the distressconstantly.
SPEAKER_02 (13:48):
Yeah.
Yeah, because it can getexhausting.
And sometimes when you're atyour lowest low or your like
most aggravated state, you'renot gonna want to think about,
well, let me try to think offive things I'm grateful for, or
let me try to deep breathe, orlet me try to like name five
things that I can see, fourthings I can hear, and go
through those are all wonderful,wonderful things that I still
(14:12):
teach people.
But I mean, it comes with a timeand a place for that.
Yeah.
Can't expect those to be the onesize fits all type of answers.
SPEAKER_01 (14:23):
Yeah.
Well, and and one of the thingsthat I found, because I was the
same way.
I when when somebody is justteaching you coping mechanisms,
but nothing's ever gettingbetter, you start to lose trust
in that person because it startsto feel like okay, yes, I can
cope right now, but I don't wantto keep coping.
I don't want to keep coping withthis.
This doesn't feel good, and Idon't want to keep doing this.
(14:44):
And but if somebody, if yourmindset is, I am healing, but
this is part of the process ofhealing, it feels different.
You know, which is what what Idiscovered and what you know
what the people I work with, youknow, have learned is we're
working through the healingprocess.
Learning how to manage mysymptoms while I'm going through
the healing process has apurpose and a value, but I'm
(15:05):
working towards somethingdifferent.
I'm not gonna stay like thisforever.
I'm working towards somethingthat feels better and is easier
and less distressing.
SPEAKER_02 (15:14):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And there yeah, there's a nightand day difference when you see
that in someone.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (15:22):
Yeah.
So tell me what led you todecide to begin your own
practice.
You you said you started workingon neurofeedback.
Can you talk a little bit aboutthat?
Because we've never had anybodyon the program that works with
that.
SPEAKER_02 (15:34):
Yeah, so it's interesting.
I started working at thetreatment center in 2016, and
then at around 2018 or so, um,so I was a staff member during
that time from 2016 to 2018.
Um, that supervisor that I thatI told you about earlier, um,
the one who mentored me throughthis whole process, she actually
(15:56):
approached me and she was shewas saying, Hey, you received
your bachelor's in psychology.
You're looking to go on tofurther education, from what I
know.
And I wanted to, I wanted tobring this bring this idea up to
you, this opportunity that youcan receive.
And she started talking aboutneurofeedback, and it was a very
(16:18):
interesting, interesting uh typeof modality that I've never
heard of.
And she said, Yeah, like wecould send you to training, you
would work under my license andeverything, because a bachelor's
level clinician is able to workunder a master's level
clinician.
So I was able to do theneurofeedback and she was able
(16:40):
to analyze everything and to beable to provide any reports that
were needed to the clients andalso to their families and
whatnot.
So it was it was a reallyinteresting opportunity that
that I received.
And I was able to work inneurofeedback from 2018 till
about well, I've never stoppedneurofeedback, but like
(17:02):
officially as a neurofeedbackclinician, I was there from 2018
to 2021, and then um at thebeginning of 2022, that's when I
started therapy.
And so, yeah, they sent me offto get training in California
where where this group ofneurofeedback clinicians who
(17:25):
started their own version ofneurofeedback that really helps
focus on helping people to workthrough their trauma, work
through and heal um differentkinds of different kinds of
symptoms that they'reexperiencing related to the
trauma.
I was able to learn a lot fromthat.
And I saw how effective it wasin the treatment center when I
(17:47):
would work with these reallyhighly traumatized kids and
teens, and it was justincredible to see how quickly it
could help them to start tostart getting more involved in
therapy because at that pointthey were very far gone, shut
down.
I've been in therapy my wholelife, nothing's gonna work.
They've just helped me to copewith different things, and
(18:09):
that's not working.
I don't want to talk aboutthings that I don't want to talk
about, and understandably so.
I mean, the stuff they wentthrough was rough, but this was
able to help their brain to getstronger in certain areas and
more stable and more regulatedto the point of where they were
able to manage their anger,manage their stress level,
(18:32):
manage their anxiety to thepoint of being able to bring up
some really difficult andvulnerable topics, which
sometimes they'd bring it up tome and I'd say, Hey, let's talk
about this with your therapistwho is actually licensed to help
you with this.
Like they can they can workthrough this.
They have the tools, they haveall the different all the
(18:54):
different things that thatthey've been trained to do.
And it was amazing to see thatconnection that that started
getting made to where it wasjust uh I feel like it was a
life-changing type of type ofthing for a lot of those kids.
SPEAKER_01 (19:08):
Yeah, can you describe what neurofeedback is?
Like explain what that is to ouraudience.
SPEAKER_02 (19:13):
Yeah, so I I describe it to to my clients all
the time as as basically it'sphysical therapy for your brain.
Except the difference is whenyou go to physical therapy, you
have to have an injury, you haveto have a problem.
With neurofeedback, anyone cando it, and it's just helping
their brain to get a little bitstronger by receiving real-time
(19:34):
feedback of what the brain isdoing and how it's regulating.
Because all of our brains canregulate more effectively and
more healthily than theycurrently do, and so it provides
a form of feedback on a videoscreen, whether they're playing
(19:55):
a video game that'spre-programmed or they're
watching a YouTube video or amovie.
The feedback comes in differentways.
So their brain sends, so themachine itself receives feet
receives the brain waves thatthe measurements of what the
brain waves are doing.
And then the feedback gets puton the screen based on what the
(20:17):
frequency of the machine isgoing at, kind of like a
treadmill, if you were to thinkof it in that way.
It's going at a very consistentfrequency.
And anytime their brain wavecrosses over that frequency, so
for instance, with the movie,the screen will grow to be full
size.
And whenever it goes over thatfrequency or below that
(20:39):
frequency, the screen shrinksreally small and it flickers and
the audio changes.
And that's just telling thebrain, hey, I want to get to
that frequency.
That frequency felt really goodfor me.
And so as it starts getting tothat frequency, the screen will
grow slowly and it'll get tothat full size again.
And the audio will be clear, thepicture will be clear, and their
(21:01):
brain just trains itself on howto how to get it to that to that
frequency level so that it canbasically have the reward of
having a really nice, clear, bigpicture of the movie.
And same thing for the game.
SPEAKER_01 (21:17):
And is it helping is it helping with emotional
regulation?
What is the purpose of this?
SPEAKER_02 (21:24):
Yeah, so our brains are super complex.
And so there's different areasof our brains that are that are
in charge of a lot of differentthings.
Some parts are in charge of moreemotional symptoms that we're
experiencing, like the abilityto regulate our emotions or
express our emotions or likeverbalize ourselves.
And others are more of like thehyperactivity or the struggles
(21:49):
with focus or hypervigilance andwhatnot.
And there's other areas that aremore for stability issues.
And so I usually will go througha symptom assessment with the
Each client before we start, andthey'll tell me on a scale of
zero to ten how distressful eachof these different symptoms are.
And that's where I'll be able togo through and see which ones
(22:11):
are the most distressful andcome up with a treatment plan of
hey, I think we should focus onthis area first, and then we'll
go to this area and we'll keepmoving around until we target
all of your distressfulsymptoms.
But we're gonna start with thosethat are most distressful right
now and keep working up to it.
(22:31):
And so over time it trains thebrain to be able to regulate
those areas of the brain so thatit can so the symptoms and the
distress can decrease.
SPEAKER_01 (22:44):
That's amazing.
Okay.
So you worked on the neuralfeedback while you were working
at this at this facility.
That's when you got yourmaster's degree, correct?
SPEAKER_00 (22:55):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (22:56):
Okay.
And then when did you also soyou have another modality that
you practice within your clinicor within your practice now?
ART.
Is that correct?
Yeah, yeah.
ART.
Tell us what the okay, what issay what yeah I it was like
something at resolution therapy.
SPEAKER_02 (23:13):
Yes, it's accelerated resolution therapy.
unknown (23:17):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (23:18):
It's an eye movement type of therapy, bilateral
stimulation.
Most people know what EMDR is.
And so I'll just I usually willask, as I describe, and I
usually ask, like, hey, do youknow what EMDR is?
And sometimes they'll say yes,sometimes no.
And if they say no, it's like,okay, well, it's EMDR is is more
(23:39):
common, and so more people knowabout it.
ART's been around for a longtime, though, now.
And so you use eye movements tobe able to tap into to more of
more of the subconscious area ofthe brain.
So it passes by the logicalthinking part of the brain, the
frontal lobe, because if we getstuck in thinking and talking
(24:02):
about our trauma, we'relogically thinking through it.
And sometimes that'll just blocka whole lot of memories and a
whole lot of distressful thingsthat our midbrain and our
subconscious are holding on to.
So with the eye movements, it'sbasically mimicking what happens
with rapid eye movement sleep.
(24:23):
So rapid eye movement sleep,what happens during that time is
process our brains processthrough everything that happened
in our day, both the good andthe bad things, and it stores it
from our short-term memory toour long-term memory.
And once it's in our long-termmemory, it's just it's there.
And and the only way that we canreally really get to it from
(24:46):
from what I've learned is iswith these eye movements that
can help us to tap into that,even memories that people don't
even really remember.
Like they feel like there's aveil that got them to not be
able to remember certaindistressful memories, and
releasing those memories andbeing able to resolve them in
(25:07):
that session has been monumentalfor these people.
SPEAKER_01 (25:13):
Yeah.
And one of the things that I Iwant to know a little bit more
about this related to EMDR,because one of the cautions that
I was given when I was writingmy book actually was when I
discovered this because EMDR waswhat my therapist and I used to
work through my trauma.
And, you know, and anytimesomebody has something that
works for them, you want to telleverybody about it, right?
SPEAKER_00 (25:34):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (25:35):
And so I was very excited to share this.
And I had one of my beta readerswas a therapist.
And when she read the sectionthat I wrote on EMDR, she she
sent me a note and said, I justwant to caution you that EMDR
can actually cause problems forpeople who who have a tendency
to dissociate when they whenthey are having a trauma
trigger.
(25:55):
And she said that if you've gotsomebody who has like severe
dissociation, you can actuallytrigger a like a break in them.
And I was very concerned aboutthat because I thought, well, I
don't want to, I don't want tosay everybody should use this if
there's potential for harm.
So I do know that you work withpeople who have dissociative
disorders.
And this is a is this is a uhtherapy that you use.
(26:16):
So how is this different fromEMDR?
Because it sounds, they soundvery similar from what the way
that you're describing them, buthow are they how is it different
and why is it a safer approachfor people who struggle with
dissociation?
SPEAKER_02 (26:29):
Yeah, and funny thing too is I a lot of the a
lot of the clients that I'veworked with that have a
dissociative disorder of somesort, they've actually tried
EMDR in the past and it hasn'treally worked well for them.
And ART for from what a lot ofthem have said is like this is
the first time things have beenstarting to move and things have
(26:50):
been starting to like resolvefrom my life, which is amazing.
And so, so I wasn't I wasn'tpersonally trained in EMDR.
So the things that I know aboutare from what I've been taught
by others who have been trainedin EMDR, where EMDR works a lot
more with negative cognitionsand also it works through a
(27:10):
process of basically the way Ithe way that I it's been
described to me is you let yourbrain go down a rabbit hole in a
way to try to find what it needsto process, what it needs to
reprocess and and try to workthrough.
And so that's where I can see itbeing problematic for those who
have dissociative disorders, isit can take them down probably
(27:32):
to a really dark place withoutany feeling of control.
Whereas with ART, the thing thatI love about it and that a lot
of people love is it's verydirective, it's very guided in
the form that I am helping themto know kind of where they
should be going in this process.
So their brain is processingthrough something totally
(27:54):
different than some others.
But and so each ART session, ithas a very similar process, but
the images and the memories thatthey're experiencing and
processing through are differentevery single time.
And so it's it's working throughevents, it's working through
stuck emotions, it's workingthrough kind of anything that's
(28:16):
keeping them feeling stuck frombeing able to move forward.
With dissociative identitydisorder, it's been amazing at
being able to help regulate thewhole system.
So all of the different partsand identities that that the
individual has.
It's been helpful in them beingable to communicate with each
other and get them all on thesame page instead of it being
(28:39):
utter chaos in their mind allthe time.
SPEAKER_01 (28:43):
And can we talk a little bit about because I I I
just realized I don't think I'veever really talked a lot about
dissociation here, and I thinkit would probably be helpful to
talk about that.
I I didn't understand, I thinkwhen somebody is struggling with
all these different symptoms,there's a lot of times when we
experience symptoms and we don'tactually understand what's
(29:03):
happening.
And so we don't have a name forit.
And I I had I didn't understandthat one of the symptoms I
struggled with was some minordissociation.
So it was whenever I would gettriggered into they call it
bipolar rage.
I'm gonna use that term becausethat's a term that's used to
describe this.
I would have these, I would gettriggered in, you know, by
something usually oneunfortunately one of my children
(29:26):
did, and I would have like itwas like a hair trigger.
The second it happened, I wasall of a sudden in this rage and
it felt like I was watchingmyself do it.
I didn't have any, I didn't feellike I was part of myself
anymore.
I would watch myself do that.
And and part of the logical partof my brain was saying, stop,
don't do this, but I didn't haveany control anymore at that
(29:46):
point.
SPEAKER_00 (29:46):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (29:47):
And then when it was over, I would feel terrible and
I would feel, you know, I beatmyself up.
And I had a long, a lot of yearswhere in this was one of the
times when I quit therapy again.
I had, I was going through thisa lot.
It was after my when my my son,so my second child that I gave
birth to was, you know, atoddler.
And I went to a therapist onetime and they were, you know,
(30:08):
telling me that some women justweren't cut out to be moms and I
needed to put my kids in daycareand go back to work.
And I was like, never going backto you again.
Like that is not helpful to me.
Yeah.
And and I, it wasn't until yearslater that somebody gave a name
to what I was experiencing,which was dissociation.
And and so can you talk a littlebit about that?
Because I don't know when I hearthat that term, I don't know if
(30:29):
that's what other peopleexperience because I haven't
really talked a lot about thatsymptom.
But can you talk about whatdissociation is and what people
are experiencing when they'rehaving dissociative disorders
where they experience a lot ofthat on a regular basis?
SPEAKER_02 (30:43):
Yeah.
So dissociation happens on aspectrum.
So if you look at it like a lineon a spectrum, there's many
different where places where itcan kind of have a turnoff
point.
So some of them are related todifferent, different diagnoses
like post-traumatic stressdisorder, dissociative identity
disorder, other dissociativedisorders and whatnot, and other
(31:05):
personality disorders.
But also like the average personcan dissociate.
And a lot of people actually inthis day and age do.
I mean, scrolling on your phoneis a form of dissociation.
It's getting yourself out ofreality for whatever moment that
you're experiencing.
And it, I mean, sometimes it'sso what dissociation was meant
(31:30):
for is it's something thatyou're it's a defense mechanism
your brain has.
But sometimes it can providethis escape, which is exactly
why it's this defense mechanismis to escape from something
that's harmful.
It's usually experienced inthose who have some form of
abuse or experience violence inthe home or experience neglect
(31:55):
of some sort, trying to tryingto get them to feel like they're
in a safe place instead ofknowing that they're alone.
But then like there's otherforms of dissociation that are
that are more on the minor side,which could be like the
scrolling aspect of things,which I mean it can't that that
(32:15):
can be minor or major.
I guess it depends on theperson's screen use.
But also there's I mean,addiction.
That's a form of dissociation,that's a self-inflicted
dissociation, and same thingwith uh like some of the minor
things.
I don't know if you've everdriven on the road, like going
on the freeway from point A topoint B, but you have no idea
(32:37):
what happened in between there.
It's almost like you went frompoint A to point C and have no
recollection of what B wasbecause you've done that drive
so many times.
And that's something that'scalled highway hypnosis, which
is basically just your brain isable to kind of go to Lala Land
or wherever it wants to go whileyou're still physically aware of
(33:00):
what's happening, but also atthe same time you're you're not,
you're more zoned out, andthat's also another another form
of dissociation is zoning outand not being in the present
moment, and so that's wherethat's where the grounding
skills helping the person to beable to get into that grounded
(33:21):
present moment is very helpful.
Um, that's where neurofeedbackcan be helpful, is it can help
them to be able to feel safe tobe in that grounded present
state, and then we start movinginto ART, which can help them to
really process through things asthey start feeling safer.
SPEAKER_01 (33:43):
Yeah, that's amazing.
And I think I think one of thethings that is helpful,
especially the way you'retalking about these things, is
understanding why we experiencethese symptoms.
One of the biggest issues that Ihave with all these mental
health diagnoses, bipolar,obviously, from my specific
focus, but I feel like what theydo is they pathologize the
(34:04):
symptoms and end curiosity.
So we we think we've been givenan answer as to why we're
experiencing the symptoms.
We think we've been, you know,some kind of under underlying
disease mechanism has beenidentified.
And we stop being curious aboutit and and kind of give up our
agency to the medication,thinking the medication is
supposed to fix this and I justhave to live with whatever,
(34:26):
whatever I live with, right?
And and it ends curiosity, itstops people from being curious
about why do I experiencingexperience these symptoms.
And the other thing that I'vefound is that because we create
these categories or thesedisorders out of these symptom
clusters, we tend to lump all ofthe symptoms into categories as
(34:46):
well.
So you know, when I I I workwith people, when I work with
people, I have them separate outsymptoms.
So instead of saying like I feeldepressed, what does that mean?
Like, tell me what that means.
I I struggle getting out of bed,I have no motivation, I'm
sleeping all the time.
I, you know, I what what doesthat mean?
Tell me all, tell me thespecific symptoms you're
experiencing.
(35:06):
You know, same thing withanxiety, anxiety especially, I
think is important to call outspecific symptoms because you
you can actually find clues inthe symptoms to help you get
underneath it and figure outwhere is this, what is that,
what is my brain actually askingfor?
What does it need?
What you know, what's happeningright now?
And so it's really interesting.
Like I've never heard anybodytalk about the different kind of
(35:28):
spectrum of dissociation.
I've never heard that before.
This is so interesting.
I've got like notes now becauseI'm like, I gotta learn more
about that.
I need to look into that.
And that's why, you know, likeone of the things that helped me
so much was mindfulnessmeditation because I had trained
my brain to like daydreambecause my brain was such an
uncomfortable place to be.
I didn't want to be there.
And I had consistently trainedmy brain to go outside of itself
(35:49):
and I didn't understand.
Now I'm understanding that'swhat that's dissociation because
my brain was uncomfortable.
I was trying to escape, youknow, that discomfort by
training it to go somewhereelse, which isn't helpful.
Learning how to stay presenthelps you to actually do
something about what's going onrather than just trying to
escape it constantly.
SPEAKER_02 (36:08):
Yeah.
I mean, it it is it is thatescape, and that's why I'm
saying in the in this day andage, dissociation is a lot more
common than a lot of peoplethink.
I mean, it's not to the point ofdissociative identity disorder
to where a person has had theirbrain has defended themselves
and developed other identitieswithin its within that
(36:31):
individual's body and whatnotand their brain.
But I mean, if you think aboutit, like, yeah, whenever
something really uncomfortablehappens or something just
aggravating, a lot of people'sfirst line of defense is they
pull out their phone and theyget on whatever it is that they
get on and start eitherscrolling or playing a game or
(36:51):
doing something that's adistraction and it helps calm
them down, but it's becausethere's some dopamine being
released in that in that actionas well.
SPEAKER_01 (37:02):
Yeah, and it and I think the uh the danger too is
that we never learn how to dealwith the distress.
And so I I feel like the theoutside of that coping, the
distress becomes bigger.
unknown (37:14):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (37:15):
You know, I I always look at it like it's like a
two-year-old throwing a tantrum.
If you don't listen, they'regonna get louder.
So your brain, you know, whenyou're feeling anxiety in a
situation, your brain's askingfor help.
It doesn't feel safe for somereason.
It's you know, the fight orflight instinct is kicking in.
And if you don't investigate andfind out why do I feel this
distress in this situation orwhat what about how what's
(37:37):
happening that's causing thisdistress?
And we keep going to thedissociation and escaping, then
every time we get in thatsituation, that distress will
heighten, which increases theanxiety.
Like we're we're working againstourselves without realizing it.
And it makes it harder andharder to cope with life, right?
And then then we want to turn tomedication to shut it down
because we're like, I don't likethat fire alarm and going off,
(37:59):
you know, even though the smokeis what's setting off the fire
alarm, we want to shut off thefire alarm.
So I would like to ask you totalk a little bit more about
dissociative identity disorder.
It's interesting because I feellike with the rise of social
media, and and I've said thisbefore, so I'm gonna say it
here.
I feel like we have a culturethat rewards victim status.
(38:21):
And so when somebody is lookingfor belonging or looking for
connection, sometimes peoplewill go online and look for
communities to belong to.
And I think people start tothink, oh, I maybe I have this
problem when they're listeningto somebody else.
In fact, I was listening to a umuh researcher talking about some
research they'd done on howsuggestive, how suggestive um
(38:45):
youth are.
And they did an experiment withthem where they did
presentations about ADHD among agroup of kids that did not
qualify, you know, don't didn'thave those symptoms.
And by the end of it, a veryhigh percentage of the kids
decided they must have ADHD.
And and all it was was justtalking about the symptoms.
And so when you when you putthat in the, you know, in social
(39:06):
media context, you know, whenyou've got out all these people
trying to bring awareness andtalk about their symptoms,
people can start to think, oh, Ihave that, or oh, I have that,
because it, you know, there's alot of we're very suggestive.
I don't know if I'm using thatword right now.
But but uh I I would like tohave you, if you have any
comments about that, by allmeans share what you want to
(39:27):
say.
But I do want to have you alsotalk about what DID actually is
because I think it's helpful.
Most people, the only experiencewe have with that is either
online or movies wheresomebody's acting.
So can you talk about that?
SPEAKER_02 (39:40):
Yeah, there's not really any Hollywood portrayals
that are accurate when it comesto DID.
It's basically every everythingthat you see on in media, they
end up being like serial killersor something like that.
But that's totally far from thetruth because DID always, like
I'm being bold to say always,because I because it is a truth
(40:03):
of it always forms from a formof childhood trauma.
It's something that comes fromfrom when our minds are very
vulnerable and just reallydistressful things are
happening, whether it's abuse orthe neglect, abandonment.
And when I say abuse, any kindof abuse, whether it's physical,
sexual, emotional, psychologicalabuse, different things like
(40:27):
that.
And the dissociation part ofthings is the brain trying to
protect the body fromexperiencing that again.
And so sometimes it pulls itkind of like pulls the brain
mind away from being presentwhen something like physical
abuse is happening to that tothat child or to that teenager
(40:50):
or whoever.
And sometimes their brain getsstuck in this identity that was
formed around that area to whereto where maybe they'll have a
child part that is stuck in thatchildlike state that just
remembers things as they were inthat time period.
And then there's an adult partthat they felt like they had to
(41:13):
be because maybe they had totake care of all of their
siblings, otherwise they werereprimanded for it, even if they
were a 12 or 13 or 14-year-oldkid.
And so they their brain was ableto separate from the fear of
getting reprimanded or gettingphysically abused again, or
whatever it may have been, andbeing able to develop this new
(41:38):
this new identity of oh, someonewho's successful and able to do
all of these things.
And so it's not it's not animaginative type of thing.
It becomes very real to wherethe brain starts to separate
into these different thesedifferent parts.
And it's not uncommon for me tobe able to see in session,
(41:59):
especially at the verybeginning, when they're very
dysregulated, very emotionalabout things, to be changing so
many times to differentdifferent parts, to where one
topic may trigger the childlikepart to come out, and then all
of a sudden something triggersan adult-like part to come out
or or anywhere in between.
(42:21):
And so DID comes from that, andand all the different people
that I've met with that havedissociative identity disorder
are some of the kindest peoplethat you would ever meet.
And they are the ones that wantto heal, they want to improve,
they won't, they want, they seesomething is not quite right for
(42:45):
them, and they're wanting tofind whatever it looks like to
become an integrated being,which doesn't mean all of their
identities fuse together intoone core self, which that is
something that can happen, but alot of times they're a lot of
(43:06):
times there are parts that havehelped them survive through the
years, they're afraid of justbeing kicked out and
disappearing, making making themgo away.
And so integration is somethingthat I like to make that
distinction.
Integration is more than justfusing them together, it's more
(43:27):
of hey, if you were to picturethe best family in the world
that really got each other andsupported each other and was
there for each other and builteach other up and communicated
really well, that's what we'relooking for.
We're looking to create thissense of unity within their
(43:47):
within their system so thatthey're able to work together
and do so effectively andappropriately to where maybe
there's one person who oneidentity who is in charge.
Like the whole time, but they'reall getting together and
supporting each other instead ofit being in disarray, like when
they first come in.
SPEAKER_01 (44:08):
Yeah.
And I I think one of the thingsI love about that, what the way
you're talking about it isinstead of and they talk about
this in like different there'sdifferent kinds of therapy that
that focus on parts, you know,internal family systems, parts
therapy.
And I think that that's just Ithink that we naturally as human
beings have a tendency to, youknow, when you're in a when
(44:30):
you're in a professionalsetting, you know, you kind of
put on a different personaversus when you're with your
family.
So I think that there's a littlebit of naturalness to that.
But I feel like when we are inextreme situations, our brain
looks for ways to handle it.
And it is just like somebodywho's like had a severe injury,
like like a limb chopped off allof a sudden, the brain like
(44:50):
rushes to shut down pain sensorsbecause the amount of pain you
would experience would overwhelmthe body and could kill you.
Right.
And so our brains, like yousaid, are super complicated.
And so something that is anatural part of our being human
can end up being taken to anextreme by the brain when it's
in an extreme situation in aneffort to preserve the person.
(45:11):
And so I think that the thingthat I love about what you're
talking about is instead oflooking at the person as you are
broken and you're dysfunctional,like disordered, meaning I, you
know, I know that it's calleddisorder, but but the way you're
talking about it is notapproaching it from like you
have a disease and it's notfixable and you're gonna, we're
gonna teach you how to cope withit.
(45:32):
You're talking about how, youknow, honoring the fact that
your brain did its job andtrying to protect you in a very
extreme circumstance.
And now we're going to work withyour, you know, your brain and
your the different parts thatdeveloped as a as a result to
try and help you live a healthylife, like try and help you it
integrate in a way that willhelp you, you know, support you
(45:53):
living a healthy life that isgoing to bring joy to you and
help you be live a fulfilling,you know, live a fulfilling
existence.
Yeah.
And you, I think when we talkedabout this before we met, you
know, today, you talked aboutthe relief that people feel when
you talk about that.
Can you can you tell talk aboutthat a little bit and why people
feel relieved when you don'ttalk about having to heal
(46:14):
necessarily, but reintegratingand I like what you said about
like the you know, reallyfunctional family that works
really well together.
SPEAKER_02 (46:22):
Yeah, I mean, just from day one, when they know
that there's there's a planahead and that there's hope,
that's that's where people startfeeling the relief from just day
one.
And it's amazing where wherethat's that's where I feel like
therapy needs to be like is thatthere's hope that something good
(46:43):
can happen.
Because a lot of these people,they come and they they've been
stuck in darkness for so long,maybe four decades.
And they come in and as youstart expressing, like, hey,
like your brain did such anamazing job at helping you
through all of this, it must bedifficult right now how you're
(47:04):
how things are being handledright now and how you're
experiencing the world, but alsothere's hope.
Like, there's hope for a betterfuture for yourself.
Like you don't have to be stuckhow you are.
And we can use X, Y, and Z toget us through these steps to be
able to start moving in thatdirection.
(47:24):
And a lot of times, even havingthe diagnosis itself is very
relieving to them.
It helps them to understand,like, so there is a reason why
I'm experiencing what I'mexperiencing, and it gives the
it gives a name and also itgives them kind of like an
action plan of oh, there is anactionable plan that I can do
(47:47):
and that we can work ontogether, and I'm not alone in
this.
Obviously, it's in thediagnostic manual for a reason.
Many more people experiencethis, and so yeah, that just
brings so much relief, even fromday one, which is amazing.
SPEAKER_01 (48:02):
Yeah.
And I it's interesting as you'retalking about this.
I when I first started sharingwhat I do about bipolar, I was
very cautious because I thoughtI only have my experience, and
what if my experience isn'tsomebody else's?
And so I was very cautious aboutbeing too bold and you know,
what I shared.
But the more research I did, andthe more I started
understanding, you know, thebrain is asking for help, and we
(48:26):
need to stop trying to shut downthe alarm.
You need to stop shutting itdown and look for the source.
So look with curiosity abouthow, like you're talking about,
like the brain, you know, whenyou see somebody with these,
with these symptoms, whatthey're experiencing are
symptoms of trauma, but you canlook at it and say, okay, most
people who experience this have,you know, the underlying source
(48:47):
is trauma.
Your brain was trying to copewith severe trauma.
So let's look with curiosity atthat and see why these different
parts developed.
And and the same thing, youknow, when somebody, when people
come to me with, you know, theirbipolar symptoms and they're
told that they have it is verydistressing to have somebody
say, you're broken, you've got adisease, you know, you've got a
disorder that's gonna you'regonna have for the rest of your
(49:08):
life, that causes a lot ofhopelessness.
But when we start recognizingthe alarms went off for a
reason, there's, you know, andand we look with curiosity at
the story and say, what, youknow, what was tell me your
story?
What were, you know, what wasyour life like?
Do you have a history of trauma?
You know, what is your dietlike?
What are, you know, what are,you know, we'd go through what
is your experience withpsychotropic medications that
(49:29):
could have caused furtherdysregulation as we go through
all of those things and lookwith curiosity for it at it.
And then there are tools thatyou can do, you know, something
about it.
The that you can actually treatthe underlying source, start
putting the fire out so that thesmoke stops, and then the alarms
go off.
You know, then they stop goingoff and you sorry, that's
probably confusing the way I'msaying that, but the alarm goes
(49:50):
stops blaring because you putthe fire out.
SPEAKER_00 (49:54):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (49:54):
And that's where people start to think, oh, I'm
not broken irreparably.
I don't have to live like thisforever.
You know, I can heal, I canrecover, and I can have the life
that I would hope to have.
SPEAKER_02 (50:06):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, beautifully said.
SPEAKER_01 (50:09):
So when somebody works with you, I I'm I'm very
curious about how do people cometo you?
Because you're saying theyreceive the diagnosis, some
people receiving the diagnosiswith you.
How do people like what whatmakes them come to you in the
first place?
Are they suspicious that theyhave that diagnosis?
Do you work with other people aswell?
Like what brings people to yourpractice?
SPEAKER_02 (50:29):
Yeah, a lot.
So so because I say that Ispecialize in in childhood
trauma and just any form oftrauma that someone's been
through, a lot of people comebecause of that.
And they come wanting to explorethat.
And sometimes they they come andthey feel very fractured and
they feel like I have no ideawhat's going on.
(50:51):
Like I feel like Dr.
Google has told me thatdissociation is something that
I'm experiencing.
And so I have no idea what thatis, or I've never heard about
that before, but it kind ofmakes sense and stuff like that.
And then they come in and it'svery clear to me either, yes,
(51:11):
they do have dissociativeidentity disorder after going
through like a thorough historyof their symptoms and a very
thorough history of like anassessment of different things
that they've been experiencingfor them to be diagnosed with
that, or a differentdissociative disorder.
Or maybe it is post-traumaticstress disorder and there's
(51:35):
those dissociative symptoms toit.
There's all sorts of differentdifferent ways that people end
up coming in.
And some people did getdiagnosed by someone else, by
another provider, who says, Iknow enough to know that this is
what you have, but I am nottrained enough for this, or I
(51:57):
have not gone through enoughtraining for it.
So let's let's find someonetogether for you to go see.
And a lot of times people willend up finding me through all of
that.
SPEAKER_01 (52:08):
Can I ask you one thing?
We got to wrap up because youyou have a deadline.
But I one of the things that youand I found in common was was
that therapy is only effectiveif the person who is seeking the
therapy wants to do somethingabout their life, if they want
to do the work to actually heal.
How do you do you work withpeople to help them understand
that?
Or do most people who come toyou, are they ready to work?
(52:28):
Like, how do you help peopleunderstand how to use therapy in
a proactive way to actually getto recovery and healing rather
than just staying stuck?
SPEAKER_02 (52:39):
Yeah, I feel like most people come in of their own
free free will and their ownlike choice to make to make the
decision to walk in the door.
I have had some who it's mostlyit's mostly teenagers.
Like some teenagers who don'twant to be there, but their
parents feel like they need tobe there and stuff.
And they're they want to sitback on the couch and not do
(53:01):
anything and stuff, and we justchat and try to build this
connection with each other, andand I usually will just like
express to them of like, hey,you're here anyways, right now.
How can we make this not a wasteof your time?
Because obviously, like it seemslike you're fine with just
sitting back and not wanting todo anything for the next hour,
(53:23):
but like what would it whatwould make this actually helpful
for you or something that you'dactually maybe look forward to
coming to?
And usually we're able to findsome creative modalities to be
able to work together and anduncover some different things.
And I mean, neurofeedback is oneof those of those modalities
(53:44):
that a lot of those that arestuck are willing to try.
And then as they work throughthat, then eventually it's like,
no, I actually want to startworking through this because I
noticed this is actuallypreventing me from having a
happier life.
SPEAKER_01 (54:02):
Amazing.
SPEAKER_02 (54:03):
Eddie, if somebody wants to connect with you, how
can they how can they well my mywebsite is one, so psychology
today is also another place tofind find me and a slew of other
therapists.
And also even just reaching outto me through email.
That's that's another great way.
If they were wanting to set up afree 15-minute consultation, no
(54:26):
strings attached and whatnot,they can find my calendar on my
website as well.
SPEAKER_01 (54:32):
And if you can share, this is always I should
have warned you, but I alwaysask people what's the one thing
that you hope somebody will takeaway from our conversation
today?
Is there one thing that you wantto make sure that's the last
word?
What would you like for peopleto take away from our
conversation?
SPEAKER_02 (54:47):
Okay.
Therapy does not have to be hardor scary, and healing is
possible.
SPEAKER_01 (54:54):
That's amazing.
I couldn't have said it bettermyself.
That's fantastic.
Thank you so much, Eddie.
I appreciate you coming ontoday.
This has been so illuminating.
I might have all these notesbecause I might want to go study
these things more now, but Iappreciate you coming on.
It has been really behind me.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_02 (55:09):
I appreciate you having me.
Thank you.
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (55:12):
All right, until next time, Upsiders.
Thanks for joining me on theUpside of Bipolar.
Your journey to recoverymatters, and I'm grateful you're
here.
For more resources, visitwww.theupsideofbipolar.com.
If you're ready to dive deeper,grab my book, The Upside of
(55:33):
Bipolar, seven steps to healyour disorder.
If you're ready to heal yoursymptoms, join my monthly
membership, The Upsiders Tribe,to transform chaos into hope.
Until next time, Upsiders
The average person can dissociate.
And a lot of people actually inthis day and age do.
I mean, scrolling on your phoneis a form of dissociation.
It's getting yourself out ofreality for whatever moment that
you're experiencing.
And it, I mean, sometimes it'sso what dissociation was meant
for is it's something thatyou're it's a defense mechanism
(00:22):
your brain has.
But sometimes it can providethis escape, which is exactly
why it's this defense mechanismis to escape from something
that's harmful.
SPEAKER_01 (00:35):
Welcome to the Upside of Bipolar, where we
uncover the true sources ofbipolar symptoms and share
proven tools for recovery.
I'm your host, MichelleReitinger, number one
international best-sellingauthor of the Upside of Bipolar
Seven Steps to Heal YourDisorder.
In this podcast, I bring yousolo insights from my journey
and guest interviews withleading researchers and experts.
(00:56):
Join us to transform chaos intohope and reclaim your life.
Let's heal together.
Welcome to the upside ofBipolar.
I am your host, MichelleReitinger, and I have an amazing
guest today.
Eddie Shin is a licensedmarriage and family therapist
(01:18):
and founder of Healing GroundCounseling located in Oram,
Utah.
Eddie is passionate abouthelping people find healing
through researched modalitiestailored for each individual.
His mission is to help peoplefind healing from childhood
trauma, trauma of any form, anddissociative disorders, such as
dissociative identity disorder,or DID.
(01:40):
Eddie has worked in privatepractice for about four years
and previously worked in aresidential treatment center for
about six years.
Eddie graduated with a BA inpsychology from Humboldt State
University in Arcata,California, and his MS in
marriage and family therapy fromCapella University, an online
university located inMinneapolis, Minnesota.
(02:00):
Eddie grew up in Orange County,California and loves the beach,
the redwoods, and the outdoors.
Eddie has two wonderful kids anda beautiful wife.
I am so excited to have youhere, Eddie.
Thank you so much for being aguest today.
SPEAKER_02 (02:12):
Yeah, I'm super excited to be here.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (02:15):
And I share your love of, I grew up in California
as well, and I love the beachand I love the redwoods.
So I we have that in common.
SPEAKER_02 (02:23):
Yes.
Nothing like it.
SPEAKER_01 (02:25):
Yeah.
Okay.
So let's start with your story.
Will you share your story withus?
SPEAKER_02 (02:30):
Yeah.
I mean, I guess depending onwhere you want the story and
stuff, I guess growing up,definitely loved, loved learning
about people.
And that was something that Ireally enjoyed and found a
passion in doing.
Was I felt like I was reallyeasy to talk to, really easy to
reason, really easy to get alongwith and stuff.
(02:50):
And I loved hearing otherpeople's stories.
I loved hearing where peoplewere coming from, what kinds of
things were victorious for them,what kinds of things were
challenging for them.
And it was just a naturalpassion that I've had throughout
my life.
And as I started getting intothe point of going to college, I
started trying to figure outwhere I wanted to go, what path
(03:12):
I wanted to go.
Did I want to go the medicalroute?
That was something I wasinterested in.
But then I also was interestedin just the whole group of
psychology and whatnot, thatwhole topic.
And so I started, I startedlooking into that and found it
fascinating.
And then I had a really amazingsupervisor at the treatment
(03:35):
center that I started workingat, which was the first place
that I had real experience withmental health and whatnot.
And she was just amazing.
And she helped me to see that Isee what kinds of passion that I
actually had for therapy.
Like I didn't realize I wantedto become a therapist.
(03:57):
I thought I wanted to be aclinical psychologist, do
psychological tests and researchand things of that nature.
But as she started working withme and as she started asking me
questions, it helped me toreally uncover that I wanted to
do more than that.
That I wanted to actually havethis one-on-one connection with
different people and help themto achieve what they feel is
(04:21):
impossible.
And as she was asking me allsorts of questions, it narrowed
down to where I think a lot likea marriage and family therapist,
which a lot of people findconfusing of what's the
difference between marriage andfamily therapy and social work
and clinical mental healthcounseling and just regular
counseling and whatnot, is withmarriage and family therapy, I
(04:44):
see the person as not just thatperson, but they have a whole
bigger picture of things thatare influencing the different
struggles that they have intheir lives.
So I see things from a verysystemic type of viewpoint.
And that's something she wasable to help me uncover.
And then she mentored me allthroughout all throughout that
(05:06):
process of getting into gradschool, going through grad
school, and even through myinternship and afterwards.
And so she she was just anamazing mentor that helped me
get to where I am today.
And yeah, I'm very grateful forwhere I am because it's a it's a
very fulfilling career for sure.
SPEAKER_01 (05:27):
Yeah.
And I I think the thing thatmade me really want to have you
on the podcast was what you doin your treatment.
When I was first diagnosed backin 1998, I was told right away,
you know, you need to go totherapy.
And the focus of therapy forprobably over a decade of my
treatment was coping.
Like, you know, you need todevelop skills, you need to
(05:48):
develop coping skills because itwas there was an underlying
assumption that my my quoteunquote bipolar disorder
diagnosis meant that I had adisease that I didn't have any
control over.
And so I would have it for therest of my life and I needed to
learn to cope with it.
And I didn't like therapy.
I hated therapy, in fact,because it didn't feel helpful
to me.
The things that the therapistswere, you know, telling me to do
(06:10):
to cope were didn't work.
It didn't help me.
It it actually felt I actuallyfelt worse after most of my
therapy sessions because I wouldgo and talk about the things a
lot, which kind of magnifiedthem in my brain, but I wasn't
being guided towards any kind ofsolution or understanding.
And so I quit for a long time.
(06:32):
Like I I didn't want to do itagain.
And I there was one kind of alast Hail Mary Pass kind of
situation where um I think itwas trying to think.
I think it was about 10 yearsago.
And I we were in a reallydistressing situation as a
family, and I was reallystruggling.
And I was had been doing reallywell for a long time, but the
(06:53):
situation was just kind ofstarting to overwhelm me.
And I had a theastical leader ofour congregation that
recommended therapy, and I wasvery resistant at first, and
he's like, I really think youought to give it a try.
And I found a therapist that hadwas trained in trauma
modalities, and that reallyshifted.
It shifted the way that I lookedat therapy.
I started seeing it as a toolthat I could use to actually
(07:16):
identify the underlying sourcesof my suffering and my distress
and start using it moreproactively to heal because she
was a very proactive therapist.
And when you and I talked thefirst time we met, um, I was
really intrigued by what you doin your practice because that's
your approach.
Your approach is to help givepeople tools to identify, you
(07:37):
know, the underlying sources ofthe distress and then help them
to resolve or integrate, youknow.
And I don't want to put words inyour mouth, but I would love to
hear kind of like let's talkabout where you started in your
therapy, you know, because youworked, I believe it said in for
six years you worked in a atreatment, like a treatment
facility.
(07:57):
Yeah.
Sorry, residential treatment.
And then and then now you'vemoved into your own private
practice.
And I love what you're doing inyour private practice.
So let's start with where youstarted in the residential
treatment facility.
I want to hear about yourexperience there, and then let's
then we'll move into talkingabout what you do now.
SPEAKER_02 (08:12):
Yeah, of course.
So the treatment center that Iworked at, it was I felt like it
was a wonderful place.
And um, the team that I had ofstaff members that would help
the kids out and help them tojust learn daily life skills and
whatnot.
And to be we were the we werebasically the coaches to help
(08:32):
coach them through how to workthrough their difficult
emotions, behaviors, tantrums,whatever it may be.
Things that basically a parentwould do.
A lot of them came fromhouseholds that were pretty
broken, really difficult.
And so they would come herebecause their behavioral
struggles were so big thatsometimes they would get kicked
(08:53):
out of schools and no one wouldknow how to how to really work
with them.
And so getting that connectionwith them really, really helped.
And I saw that, yes, the copingskills worked.
Like we got trained on all likea whole slew of coping skills,
but then like it worked for thatone time, and then it worked the
next time, and then the nexttime, and then sometimes the
(09:16):
kids would know it would workand they would just say, Oh, I
don't want to do that because Ijust don't want to do it.
And they would just get so madabout it.
And sometimes I kind of noticedthat they would get frustrated
that okay, yes, it'll help mefor right now, but like, how is
this gonna help long term andstuff?
And so I first started off inneurofeedback as they moved me
(09:37):
up into learning about doingthat and getting clinical
experience there.
But as I moved into therapy andand everything, that's where I
started having this this thoughtof I want to I want to learn
more about how to help people tonot just cope with their
challenges, but actually find asource of healing, like looking
(09:59):
at the root of the probleminstead of just looking at the
surface.
Because everyone can see whatwhat's happening on the surface,
not everyone can see what'shappening down below.
And before I got really involvedin some of the more trauma
modalities and whatnot, I foundthat like just that genuine
connection with the person isthe starting point of getting
(10:22):
them to be able to open up.
And as I started learning moreabout these trauma modalities,
it started helping theseteenagers that I worked with
uncover a lot of the traumasthat they went through to the
point of where they ended uptransforming into just different
people, which was amazing tosee.
To where sometimes they on paperthey were the more challenging
(10:44):
kids and teens that that wouldcome to the facility.
But then when other therapistswere like, How do you work with
them?
Like, they're some of thehardest kids, like they make my
kids look like the biggestangels in the world and stuff.
And it's like, I mean, I havethis connection with them, like
they know I trust them, theytrust me, I respect them, they
(11:06):
respect me, and they know thatI'm in this for them and with
them, and they're not alone init, and that's where the
progress really comes.
It's it's not just a job, it'smore of no, let's let's connect
in this fundamental level sothat you can get to your best
your Yeah, and coping isexhausting.
SPEAKER_01 (11:31):
You know, for you know, when somebody's struggling
with bipolar symptoms, forexample, the longer you
experience them, the more theeasier it is to start to
recognize the pattern and toexpect it.
And so I I always described itas feeling like I was getting
yanked onto a roller coaster andI just had to hold on white
knuckling it until it was over.
And then I would survey thedamage, you know, and and it's
(11:54):
trying to apply the copingmechanism.
Sometimes you didn't have theemotional capacity to put the
energy forth to do it.
And, you know, like you weresaying with these kids, yes, it
would work, but then there wouldbe times when they were starting
to resist using those copingmechanisms because they're like,
I don't want to do this anymore.
I I'm so tired of coping, andI'm so tired of these feelings.
And the thing that I think iswhat I hear what you're talking
(12:16):
about that is so interesting.
So I'm forgive me, but I want toshare this little story that
came into my mind.
When I was a girl, there was achildren's book called Albert's
Toothache, and these are it'sabout turtles.
And the turtle keeps goingaround telling everybody he has
a toothache, but turtles don'thave teeth, and so nobody would
believe him.
And he's crying, you know,halfway into the book, he's
crying because nobody willbelieve that he has a toothache.
(12:36):
And finally the grandmothercomes and she asks him questions
and discovered he had an injury,another injury, and he didn't
know how to describe it.
And and so, you know, everybodyup to that point thinks he's a
liar, thinks he's trying to getattention, you know, all these
things.
And he was really in pain and heneeded help.
And it was somebody who juststarted asking him questions to
try and get to the bottom of it.
(12:57):
And I think that that's whatyou're describing is instead of
trying to keep teach them tocope with their distress, you
know, it's very easy for us whenwe see somebody acting in a way
that is uncomfortable for us,you know, or that is causing
harm to other people, which isunderstandable, to want to stop
them and to shut it down and tofocus on how do we get that to
(13:18):
stop?
How do we get them to stop?
How do we teach them to stopdoing that instead of, you know,
having some curiosity andlooking and saying, is there
something that's underneath thatthat is, you know, is this a cry
for help?
Is this, is this distress thatneeds to be, you know, looked
into?
And so I love what you'resharing about you taking the
time to get trained inmodalities and learn more about
(13:40):
trauma and then helping them touncover their trauma and working
with them to actually heal andresolve it rather than just
coping with the distressconstantly.
SPEAKER_02 (13:48):
Yeah.
Yeah, because it can getexhausting.
And sometimes when you're atyour lowest low or your like
most aggravated state, you'renot gonna want to think about,
well, let me try to think offive things I'm grateful for, or
let me try to deep breathe, orlet me try to like name five
things that I can see, fourthings I can hear, and go
through those are all wonderful,wonderful things that I still
(14:12):
teach people.
But I mean, it comes with a timeand a place for that.
Yeah.
Can't expect those to be the onesize fits all type of answers.
SPEAKER_01 (14:23):
Yeah.
Well, and and one of the thingsthat I found, because I was the
same way.
I when when somebody is justteaching you coping mechanisms,
but nothing's ever gettingbetter, you start to lose trust
in that person because it startsto feel like okay, yes, I can
cope right now, but I don't wantto keep coping.
I don't want to keep coping withthis.
This doesn't feel good, and Idon't want to keep doing this.
(14:44):
And but if somebody, if yourmindset is, I am healing, but
this is part of the process ofhealing, it feels different.
You know, which is what what Idiscovered and what you know
what the people I work with, youknow, have learned is we're
working through the healingprocess.
Learning how to manage mysymptoms while I'm going through
the healing process has apurpose and a value, but I'm
(15:05):
working towards somethingdifferent.
I'm not gonna stay like thisforever.
I'm working towards somethingthat feels better and is easier
and less distressing.
SPEAKER_02 (15:14):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And there yeah, there's a nightand day difference when you see
that in someone.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (15:22):
Yeah.
So tell me what led you todecide to begin your own
practice.
You you said you started workingon neurofeedback.
Can you talk a little bit aboutthat?
Because we've never had anybodyon the program that works with
that.
SPEAKER_02 (15:34):
Yeah, so it's interesting.
I started working at thetreatment center in 2016, and
then at around 2018 or so, um,so I was a staff member during
that time from 2016 to 2018.
Um, that supervisor that I thatI told you about earlier, um,
the one who mentored me throughthis whole process, she actually
(15:56):
approached me and she was shewas saying, Hey, you received
your bachelor's in psychology.
You're looking to go on tofurther education, from what I
know.
And I wanted to, I wanted tobring this bring this idea up to
you, this opportunity that youcan receive.
And she started talking aboutneurofeedback, and it was a very
(16:18):
interesting, interesting uh typeof modality that I've never
heard of.
And she said, Yeah, like wecould send you to training, you
would work under my license andeverything, because a bachelor's
level clinician is able to workunder a master's level
clinician.
So I was able to do theneurofeedback and she was able
(16:40):
to analyze everything and to beable to provide any reports that
were needed to the clients andalso to their families and
whatnot.
So it was it was a reallyinteresting opportunity that
that I received.
And I was able to work inneurofeedback from 2018 till
about well, I've never stoppedneurofeedback, but like
(17:02):
officially as a neurofeedbackclinician, I was there from 2018
to 2021, and then um at thebeginning of 2022, that's when I
started therapy.
And so, yeah, they sent me offto get training in California
where where this group ofneurofeedback clinicians who
(17:25):
started their own version ofneurofeedback that really helps
focus on helping people to workthrough their trauma, work
through and heal um differentkinds of different kinds of
symptoms that they'reexperiencing related to the
trauma.
I was able to learn a lot fromthat.
And I saw how effective it wasin the treatment center when I
(17:47):
would work with these reallyhighly traumatized kids and
teens, and it was justincredible to see how quickly it
could help them to start tostart getting more involved in
therapy because at that pointthey were very far gone, shut
down.
I've been in therapy my wholelife, nothing's gonna work.
They've just helped me to copewith different things, and
(18:09):
that's not working.
I don't want to talk aboutthings that I don't want to talk
about, and understandably so.
I mean, the stuff they wentthrough was rough, but this was
able to help their brain to getstronger in certain areas and
more stable and more regulatedto the point of where they were
able to manage their anger,manage their stress level,
(18:32):
manage their anxiety to thepoint of being able to bring up
some really difficult andvulnerable topics, which
sometimes they'd bring it up tome and I'd say, Hey, let's talk
about this with your therapistwho is actually licensed to help
you with this.
Like they can they can workthrough this.
They have the tools, they haveall the different all the
(18:54):
different things that thatthey've been trained to do.
And it was amazing to see thatconnection that that started
getting made to where it wasjust uh I feel like it was a
life-changing type of type ofthing for a lot of those kids.
SPEAKER_01 (19:08):
Yeah, can you describe what neurofeedback is?
Like explain what that is to ouraudience.
SPEAKER_02 (19:13):
Yeah, so I I describe it to to my clients all
the time as as basically it'sphysical therapy for your brain.
Except the difference is whenyou go to physical therapy, you
have to have an injury, you haveto have a problem.
With neurofeedback, anyone cando it, and it's just helping
their brain to get a little bitstronger by receiving real-time
(19:34):
feedback of what the brain isdoing and how it's regulating.
Because all of our brains canregulate more effectively and
more healthily than theycurrently do, and so it provides
a form of feedback on a videoscreen, whether they're playing
(19:55):
a video game that'spre-programmed or they're
watching a YouTube video or amovie.
The feedback comes in differentways.
So their brain sends, so themachine itself receives feet
receives the brain waves thatthe measurements of what the
brain waves are doing.
And then the feedback gets puton the screen based on what the
(20:17):
frequency of the machine isgoing at, kind of like a
treadmill, if you were to thinkof it in that way.
It's going at a very consistentfrequency.
And anytime their brain wavecrosses over that frequency, so
for instance, with the movie,the screen will grow to be full
size.
And whenever it goes over thatfrequency or below that
(20:39):
frequency, the screen shrinksreally small and it flickers and
the audio changes.
And that's just telling thebrain, hey, I want to get to
that frequency.
That frequency felt really goodfor me.
And so as it starts getting tothat frequency, the screen will
grow slowly and it'll get tothat full size again.
And the audio will be clear, thepicture will be clear, and their
(21:01):
brain just trains itself on howto how to get it to that to that
frequency level so that it canbasically have the reward of
having a really nice, clear, bigpicture of the movie.
And same thing for the game.
SPEAKER_01 (21:17):
And is it helping is it helping with emotional
regulation?
What is the purpose of this?
SPEAKER_02 (21:24):
Yeah, so our brains are super complex.
And so there's different areasof our brains that are that are
in charge of a lot of differentthings.
Some parts are in charge of moreemotional symptoms that we're
experiencing, like the abilityto regulate our emotions or
express our emotions or likeverbalize ourselves.
And others are more of like thehyperactivity or the struggles
(21:49):
with focus or hypervigilance andwhatnot.
And there's other areas that aremore for stability issues.
And so I usually will go througha symptom assessment with the
Each client before we start, andthey'll tell me on a scale of
zero to ten how distressful eachof these different symptoms are.
And that's where I'll be able togo through and see which ones
(22:11):
are the most distressful andcome up with a treatment plan of
hey, I think we should focus onthis area first, and then we'll
go to this area and we'll keepmoving around until we target
all of your distressfulsymptoms.
But we're gonna start with thosethat are most distressful right
now and keep working up to it.
(22:31):
And so over time it trains thebrain to be able to regulate
those areas of the brain so thatit can so the symptoms and the
distress can decrease.
SPEAKER_01 (22:44):
That's amazing.
Okay.
So you worked on the neuralfeedback while you were working
at this at this facility.
That's when you got yourmaster's degree, correct?
SPEAKER_00 (22:55):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (22:56):
Okay.
And then when did you also soyou have another modality that
you practice within your clinicor within your practice now?
ART.
Is that correct?
Yeah, yeah.
ART.
Tell us what the okay, what issay what yeah I it was like
something at resolution therapy.
SPEAKER_02 (23:13):
Yes, it's accelerated resolution therapy.
unknown (23:17):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (23:18):
It's an eye movement type of therapy, bilateral
stimulation.
Most people know what EMDR is.
And so I'll just I usually willask, as I describe, and I
usually ask, like, hey, do youknow what EMDR is?
And sometimes they'll say yes,sometimes no.
And if they say no, it's like,okay, well, it's EMDR is is more
(23:39):
common, and so more people knowabout it.
ART's been around for a longtime, though, now.
And so you use eye movements tobe able to tap into to more of
more of the subconscious area ofthe brain.
So it passes by the logicalthinking part of the brain, the
frontal lobe, because if we getstuck in thinking and talking
(24:02):
about our trauma, we'relogically thinking through it.
And sometimes that'll just blocka whole lot of memories and a
whole lot of distressful thingsthat our midbrain and our
subconscious are holding on to.
So with the eye movements, it'sbasically mimicking what happens
with rapid eye movement sleep.
(24:23):
So rapid eye movement sleep,what happens during that time is
process our brains processthrough everything that happened
in our day, both the good andthe bad things, and it stores it
from our short-term memory toour long-term memory.
And once it's in our long-termmemory, it's just it's there.
And and the only way that we canreally really get to it from
(24:46):
from what I've learned is iswith these eye movements that
can help us to tap into that,even memories that people don't
even really remember.
Like they feel like there's aveil that got them to not be
able to remember certaindistressful memories, and
releasing those memories andbeing able to resolve them in
(25:07):
that session has been monumentalfor these people.
SPEAKER_01 (25:13):
Yeah.
And one of the things that I Iwant to know a little bit more
about this related to EMDR,because one of the cautions that
I was given when I was writingmy book actually was when I
discovered this because EMDR waswhat my therapist and I used to
work through my trauma.
And, you know, and anytimesomebody has something that
works for them, you want to telleverybody about it, right?
SPEAKER_00 (25:34):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (25:35):
And so I was very excited to share this.
And I had one of my beta readerswas a therapist.
And when she read the sectionthat I wrote on EMDR, she she
sent me a note and said, I justwant to caution you that EMDR
can actually cause problems forpeople who who have a tendency
to dissociate when they whenthey are having a trauma
trigger.
(25:55):
And she said that if you've gotsomebody who has like severe
dissociation, you can actuallytrigger a like a break in them.
And I was very concerned aboutthat because I thought, well, I
don't want to, I don't want tosay everybody should use this if
there's potential for harm.
So I do know that you work withpeople who have dissociative
disorders.
And this is a is this is a uhtherapy that you use.
(26:16):
So how is this different fromEMDR?
Because it sounds, they soundvery similar from what the way
that you're describing them, buthow are they how is it different
and why is it a safer approachfor people who struggle with
dissociation?
SPEAKER_02 (26:29):
Yeah, and funny thing too is I a lot of the a
lot of the clients that I'veworked with that have a
dissociative disorder of somesort, they've actually tried
EMDR in the past and it hasn'treally worked well for them.
And ART for from what a lot ofthem have said is like this is
the first time things have beenstarting to move and things have
(26:50):
been starting to like resolvefrom my life, which is amazing.
And so, so I wasn't I wasn'tpersonally trained in EMDR.
So the things that I know aboutare from what I've been taught
by others who have been trainedin EMDR, where EMDR works a lot
more with negative cognitionsand also it works through a
(27:10):
process of basically the way Ithe way that I it's been
described to me is you let yourbrain go down a rabbit hole in a
way to try to find what it needsto process, what it needs to
reprocess and and try to workthrough.
And so that's where I can see itbeing problematic for those who
have dissociative disorders, isit can take them down probably
(27:32):
to a really dark place withoutany feeling of control.
Whereas with ART, the thing thatI love about it and that a lot
of people love is it's verydirective, it's very guided in
the form that I am helping themto know kind of where they
should be going in this process.
So their brain is processingthrough something totally
(27:54):
different than some others.
But and so each ART session, ithas a very similar process, but
the images and the memories thatthey're experiencing and
processing through are differentevery single time.
And so it's it's working throughevents, it's working through
stuck emotions, it's workingthrough kind of anything that's
(28:16):
keeping them feeling stuck frombeing able to move forward.
With dissociative identitydisorder, it's been amazing at
being able to help regulate thewhole system.
So all of the different partsand identities that that the
individual has.
It's been helpful in them beingable to communicate with each
other and get them all on thesame page instead of it being
(28:39):
utter chaos in their mind allthe time.
SPEAKER_01 (28:43):
And can we talk a little bit about because I I I
just realized I don't think I'veever really talked a lot about
dissociation here, and I thinkit would probably be helpful to
talk about that.
I I didn't understand, I thinkwhen somebody is struggling with
all these different symptoms,there's a lot of times when we
experience symptoms and we don'tactually understand what's
(29:03):
happening.
And so we don't have a name forit.
And I I had I didn't understandthat one of the symptoms I
struggled with was some minordissociation.
So it was whenever I would gettriggered into they call it
bipolar rage.
I'm gonna use that term becausethat's a term that's used to
describe this.
I would have these, I would gettriggered in, you know, by
something usually oneunfortunately one of my children
(29:26):
did, and I would have like itwas like a hair trigger.
The second it happened, I wasall of a sudden in this rage and
it felt like I was watchingmyself do it.
I didn't have any, I didn't feellike I was part of myself
anymore.
I would watch myself do that.
And and part of the logical partof my brain was saying, stop,
don't do this, but I didn't haveany control anymore at that
(29:46):
point.
SPEAKER_00 (29:46):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (29:47):
And then when it was over, I would feel terrible and
I would feel, you know, I beatmyself up.
And I had a long, a lot of yearswhere in this was one of the
times when I quit therapy again.
I had, I was going through thisa lot.
It was after my when my my son,so my second child that I gave
birth to was, you know, atoddler.
And I went to a therapist onetime and they were, you know,
(30:08):
telling me that some women justweren't cut out to be moms and I
needed to put my kids in daycareand go back to work.
And I was like, never going backto you again.
Like that is not helpful to me.
Yeah.
And and I, it wasn't until yearslater that somebody gave a name
to what I was experiencing,which was dissociation.
And and so can you talk a littlebit about that?
Because I don't know when I hearthat that term, I don't know if
(30:29):
that's what other peopleexperience because I haven't
really talked a lot about thatsymptom.
But can you talk about whatdissociation is and what people
are experiencing when they'rehaving dissociative disorders
where they experience a lot ofthat on a regular basis?
SPEAKER_02 (30:43):
Yeah.
So dissociation happens on aspectrum.
So if you look at it like a lineon a spectrum, there's many
different where places where itcan kind of have a turnoff
point.
So some of them are related todifferent, different diagnoses
like post-traumatic stressdisorder, dissociative identity
disorder, other dissociativedisorders and whatnot, and other
(31:05):
personality disorders.
But also like the average personcan dissociate.
And a lot of people actually inthis day and age do.
I mean, scrolling on your phoneis a form of dissociation.
It's getting yourself out ofreality for whatever moment that
you're experiencing.
And it, I mean, sometimes it'sso what dissociation was meant
(31:30):
for is it's something thatyou're it's a defense mechanism
your brain has.
But sometimes it can providethis escape, which is exactly
why it's this defense mechanismis to escape from something
that's harmful.
It's usually experienced inthose who have some form of
abuse or experience violence inthe home or experience neglect
(31:55):
of some sort, trying to tryingto get them to feel like they're
in a safe place instead ofknowing that they're alone.
But then like there's otherforms of dissociation that are
that are more on the minor side,which could be like the
scrolling aspect of things,which I mean it can't that that
(32:15):
can be minor or major.
I guess it depends on theperson's screen use.
But also there's I mean,addiction.
That's a form of dissociation,that's a self-inflicted
dissociation, and same thingwith uh like some of the minor
things.
I don't know if you've everdriven on the road, like going
on the freeway from point A topoint B, but you have no idea
(32:37):
what happened in between there.
It's almost like you went frompoint A to point C and have no
recollection of what B wasbecause you've done that drive
so many times.
And that's something that'scalled highway hypnosis, which
is basically just your brain isable to kind of go to Lala Land
or wherever it wants to go whileyou're still physically aware of
(33:00):
what's happening, but also atthe same time you're you're not,
you're more zoned out, andthat's also another another form
of dissociation is zoning outand not being in the present
moment, and so that's wherethat's where the grounding
skills helping the person to beable to get into that grounded
(33:21):
present moment is very helpful.
Um, that's where neurofeedbackcan be helpful, is it can help
them to be able to feel safe tobe in that grounded present
state, and then we start movinginto ART, which can help them to
really process through things asthey start feeling safer.
SPEAKER_01 (33:43):
Yeah, that's amazing.
And I think I think one of thethings that is helpful,
especially the way you'retalking about these things, is
understanding why we experiencethese symptoms.
One of the biggest issues that Ihave with all these mental
health diagnoses, bipolar,obviously, from my specific
focus, but I feel like what theydo is they pathologize the
(34:04):
symptoms and end curiosity.
So we we think we've been givenan answer as to why we're
experiencing the symptoms.
We think we've been, you know,some kind of under underlying
disease mechanism has beenidentified.
And we stop being curious aboutit and and kind of give up our
agency to the medication,thinking the medication is
supposed to fix this and I justhave to live with whatever,
(34:26):
whatever I live with, right?
And and it ends curiosity, itstops people from being curious
about why do I experiencingexperience these symptoms.
And the other thing that I'vefound is that because we create
these categories or thesedisorders out of these symptom
clusters, we tend to lump all ofthe symptoms into categories as
(34:46):
well.
So you know, when I I I workwith people, when I work with
people, I have them separate outsymptoms.
So instead of saying like I feeldepressed, what does that mean?
Like, tell me what that means.
I I struggle getting out of bed,I have no motivation, I'm
sleeping all the time.
I, you know, I what what doesthat mean?
Tell me all, tell me thespecific symptoms you're
experiencing.
(35:06):
You know, same thing withanxiety, anxiety especially, I
think is important to call outspecific symptoms because you
you can actually find clues inthe symptoms to help you get
underneath it and figure outwhere is this, what is that,
what is my brain actually askingfor?
What does it need?
What you know, what's happeningright now?
And so it's really interesting.
Like I've never heard anybodytalk about the different kind of
(35:28):
spectrum of dissociation.
I've never heard that before.
This is so interesting.
I've got like notes now becauseI'm like, I gotta learn more
about that.
I need to look into that.
And that's why, you know, likeone of the things that helped me
so much was mindfulnessmeditation because I had trained
my brain to like daydreambecause my brain was such an
uncomfortable place to be.
I didn't want to be there.
And I had consistently trainedmy brain to go outside of itself
(35:49):
and I didn't understand.
Now I'm understanding that'swhat that's dissociation because
my brain was uncomfortable.
I was trying to escape, youknow, that discomfort by
training it to go somewhereelse, which isn't helpful.
Learning how to stay presenthelps you to actually do
something about what's going onrather than just trying to
escape it constantly.
SPEAKER_02 (36:08):
Yeah.
I mean, it it is it is thatescape, and that's why I'm
saying in the in this day andage, dissociation is a lot more
common than a lot of peoplethink.
I mean, it's not to the point ofdissociative identity disorder
to where a person has had theirbrain has defended themselves
and developed other identitieswithin its within that
(36:31):
individual's body and whatnotand their brain.
But I mean, if you think aboutit, like, yeah, whenever
something really uncomfortablehappens or something just
aggravating, a lot of people'sfirst line of defense is they
pull out their phone and theyget on whatever it is that they
get on and start eitherscrolling or playing a game or
(36:51):
doing something that's adistraction and it helps calm
them down, but it's becausethere's some dopamine being
released in that in that actionas well.
SPEAKER_01 (37:02):
Yeah, and it and I think the uh the danger too is
that we never learn how to dealwith the distress.
And so I I feel like the theoutside of that coping, the
distress becomes bigger.
unknown (37:14):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (37:15):
You know, I I always look at it like it's like a
two-year-old throwing a tantrum.
If you don't listen, they'regonna get louder.
So your brain, you know, whenyou're feeling anxiety in a
situation, your brain's askingfor help.
It doesn't feel safe for somereason.
It's you know, the fight orflight instinct is kicking in.
And if you don't investigate andfind out why do I feel this
distress in this situation orwhat what about how what's
(37:37):
happening that's causing thisdistress?
And we keep going to thedissociation and escaping, then
every time we get in thatsituation, that distress will
heighten, which increases theanxiety.
Like we're we're working againstourselves without realizing it.
And it makes it harder andharder to cope with life, right?
And then then we want to turn tomedication to shut it down
because we're like, I don't likethat fire alarm and going off,
(37:59):
you know, even though the smokeis what's setting off the fire
alarm, we want to shut off thefire alarm.
So I would like to ask you totalk a little bit more about
dissociative identity disorder.
It's interesting because I feellike with the rise of social
media, and and I've said thisbefore, so I'm gonna say it
here.
I feel like we have a culturethat rewards victim status.
(38:21):
And so when somebody is lookingfor belonging or looking for
connection, sometimes peoplewill go online and look for
communities to belong to.
And I think people start tothink, oh, I maybe I have this
problem when they're listeningto somebody else.
In fact, I was listening to a umuh researcher talking about some
research they'd done on howsuggestive, how suggestive um
(38:45):
youth are.
And they did an experiment withthem where they did
presentations about ADHD among agroup of kids that did not
qualify, you know, don't didn'thave those symptoms.
And by the end of it, a veryhigh percentage of the kids
decided they must have ADHD.
And and all it was was justtalking about the symptoms.
And so when you when you putthat in the, you know, in social
(39:06):
media context, you know, whenyou've got out all these people
trying to bring awareness andtalk about their symptoms,
people can start to think, oh, Ihave that, or oh, I have that,
because it, you know, there's alot of we're very suggestive.
I don't know if I'm using thatword right now.
But but uh I I would like tohave you, if you have any
comments about that, by allmeans share what you want to
(39:27):
say.
But I do want to have you alsotalk about what DID actually is
because I think it's helpful.
Most people, the only experiencewe have with that is either
online or movies wheresomebody's acting.
So can you talk about that?
SPEAKER_02 (39:40):
Yeah, there's not really any Hollywood portrayals
that are accurate when it comesto DID.
It's basically every everythingthat you see on in media, they
end up being like serial killersor something like that.
But that's totally far from thetruth because DID always, like
I'm being bold to say always,because I because it is a truth
(40:03):
of it always forms from a formof childhood trauma.
It's something that comes fromfrom when our minds are very
vulnerable and just reallydistressful things are
happening, whether it's abuse orthe neglect, abandonment.
And when I say abuse, any kindof abuse, whether it's physical,
sexual, emotional, psychologicalabuse, different things like
(40:27):
that.
And the dissociation part ofthings is the brain trying to
protect the body fromexperiencing that again.
And so sometimes it pulls itkind of like pulls the brain
mind away from being presentwhen something like physical
abuse is happening to that tothat child or to that teenager
(40:50):
or whoever.
And sometimes their brain getsstuck in this identity that was
formed around that area to whereto where maybe they'll have a
child part that is stuck in thatchildlike state that just
remembers things as they were inthat time period.
And then there's an adult partthat they felt like they had to
(41:13):
be because maybe they had totake care of all of their
siblings, otherwise they werereprimanded for it, even if they
were a 12 or 13 or 14-year-oldkid.
And so they their brain was ableto separate from the fear of
getting reprimanded or gettingphysically abused again, or
whatever it may have been, andbeing able to develop this new
(41:38):
this new identity of oh, someonewho's successful and able to do
all of these things.
And so it's not it's not animaginative type of thing.
It becomes very real to wherethe brain starts to separate
into these different thesedifferent parts.
And it's not uncommon for me tobe able to see in session,
(41:59):
especially at the verybeginning, when they're very
dysregulated, very emotionalabout things, to be changing so
many times to differentdifferent parts, to where one
topic may trigger the childlikepart to come out, and then all
of a sudden something triggersan adult-like part to come out
or or anywhere in between.
(42:21):
And so DID comes from that, andand all the different people
that I've met with that havedissociative identity disorder
are some of the kindest peoplethat you would ever meet.
And they are the ones that wantto heal, they want to improve,
they won't, they want, they seesomething is not quite right for
(42:45):
them, and they're wanting tofind whatever it looks like to
become an integrated being,which doesn't mean all of their
identities fuse together intoone core self, which that is
something that can happen, but alot of times they're a lot of
(43:06):
times there are parts that havehelped them survive through the
years, they're afraid of justbeing kicked out and
disappearing, making making themgo away.
And so integration is somethingthat I like to make that
distinction.
Integration is more than justfusing them together, it's more
(43:27):
of hey, if you were to picturethe best family in the world
that really got each other andsupported each other and was
there for each other and builteach other up and communicated
really well, that's what we'relooking for.
We're looking to create thissense of unity within their
(43:47):
within their system so thatthey're able to work together
and do so effectively andappropriately to where maybe
there's one person who oneidentity who is in charge.
Like the whole time, but they'reall getting together and
supporting each other instead ofit being in disarray, like when
they first come in.
SPEAKER_01 (44:08):
Yeah.
And I I think one of the thingsI love about that, what the way
you're talking about it isinstead of and they talk about
this in like different there'sdifferent kinds of therapy that
that focus on parts, you know,internal family systems, parts
therapy.
And I think that that's just Ithink that we naturally as human
beings have a tendency to, youknow, when you're in a when
(44:30):
you're in a professionalsetting, you know, you kind of
put on a different personaversus when you're with your
family.
So I think that there's a littlebit of naturalness to that.
But I feel like when we are inextreme situations, our brain
looks for ways to handle it.
And it is just like somebodywho's like had a severe injury,
like like a limb chopped off allof a sudden, the brain like
(44:50):
rushes to shut down pain sensorsbecause the amount of pain you
would experience would overwhelmthe body and could kill you.
Right.
And so our brains, like yousaid, are super complicated.
And so something that is anatural part of our being human
can end up being taken to anextreme by the brain when it's
in an extreme situation in aneffort to preserve the person.
(45:11):
And so I think that the thingthat I love about what you're
talking about is instead oflooking at the person as you are
broken and you're dysfunctional,like disordered, meaning I, you
know, I know that it's calleddisorder, but but the way you're
talking about it is notapproaching it from like you
have a disease and it's notfixable and you're gonna, we're
gonna teach you how to cope withit.
(45:32):
You're talking about how, youknow, honoring the fact that
your brain did its job andtrying to protect you in a very
extreme circumstance.
And now we're going to work withyour, you know, your brain and
your the different parts thatdeveloped as a as a result to
try and help you live a healthylife, like try and help you it
integrate in a way that willhelp you, you know, support you
(45:53):
living a healthy life that isgoing to bring joy to you and
help you be live a fulfilling,you know, live a fulfilling
existence.
Yeah.
And you, I think when we talkedabout this before we met, you
know, today, you talked aboutthe relief that people feel when
you talk about that.
Can you can you tell talk aboutthat a little bit and why people
feel relieved when you don'ttalk about having to heal
(46:14):
necessarily, but reintegratingand I like what you said about
like the you know, reallyfunctional family that works
really well together.
SPEAKER_02 (46:22):
Yeah, I mean, just from day one, when they know
that there's there's a planahead and that there's hope,
that's that's where people startfeeling the relief from just day
one.
And it's amazing where wherethat's that's where I feel like
therapy needs to be like is thatthere's hope that something good
(46:43):
can happen.
Because a lot of these people,they come and they they've been
stuck in darkness for so long,maybe four decades.
And they come in and as youstart expressing, like, hey,
like your brain did such anamazing job at helping you
through all of this, it must bedifficult right now how you're
(47:04):
how things are being handledright now and how you're
experiencing the world, but alsothere's hope.
Like, there's hope for a betterfuture for yourself.
Like you don't have to be stuckhow you are.
And we can use X, Y, and Z toget us through these steps to be
able to start moving in thatdirection.
(47:24):
And a lot of times, even havingthe diagnosis itself is very
relieving to them.
It helps them to understand,like, so there is a reason why
I'm experiencing what I'mexperiencing, and it gives the
it gives a name and also itgives them kind of like an
action plan of oh, there is anactionable plan that I can do
(47:47):
and that we can work ontogether, and I'm not alone in
this.
Obviously, it's in thediagnostic manual for a reason.
Many more people experiencethis, and so yeah, that just
brings so much relief, even fromday one, which is amazing.
SPEAKER_01 (48:02):
Yeah.
And I it's interesting as you'retalking about this.
I when I first started sharingwhat I do about bipolar, I was
very cautious because I thoughtI only have my experience, and
what if my experience isn'tsomebody else's?
And so I was very cautious aboutbeing too bold and you know,
what I shared.
But the more research I did, andthe more I started
understanding, you know, thebrain is asking for help, and we
(48:26):
need to stop trying to shut downthe alarm.
You need to stop shutting itdown and look for the source.
So look with curiosity abouthow, like you're talking about,
like the brain, you know, whenyou see somebody with these,
with these symptoms, whatthey're experiencing are
symptoms of trauma, but you canlook at it and say, okay, most
people who experience this have,you know, the underlying source
(48:47):
is trauma.
Your brain was trying to copewith severe trauma.
So let's look with curiosity atthat and see why these different
parts developed.
And and the same thing, youknow, when somebody, when people
come to me with, you know, theirbipolar symptoms and they're
told that they have it is verydistressing to have somebody
say, you're broken, you've got adisease, you know, you've got a
disorder that's gonna you'regonna have for the rest of your
(49:08):
life, that causes a lot ofhopelessness.
But when we start recognizingthe alarms went off for a
reason, there's, you know, andand we look with curiosity at
the story and say, what, youknow, what was tell me your
story?
What were, you know, what wasyour life like?
Do you have a history of trauma?
You know, what is your dietlike?
What are, you know, what are,you know, we'd go through what
is your experience withpsychotropic medications that
(49:29):
could have caused furtherdysregulation as we go through
all of those things and lookwith curiosity for it at it.
And then there are tools thatyou can do, you know, something
about it.
The that you can actually treatthe underlying source, start
putting the fire out so that thesmoke stops, and then the alarms
go off.
You know, then they stop goingoff and you sorry, that's
probably confusing the way I'msaying that, but the alarm goes
(49:50):
stops blaring because you putthe fire out.
SPEAKER_00 (49:54):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (49:54):
And that's where people start to think, oh, I'm
not broken irreparably.
I don't have to live like thisforever.
You know, I can heal, I canrecover, and I can have the life
that I would hope to have.
SPEAKER_02 (50:06):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, beautifully said.
SPEAKER_01 (50:09):
So when somebody works with you, I I'm I'm very
curious about how do people cometo you?
Because you're saying theyreceive the diagnosis, some
people receiving the diagnosiswith you.
How do people like what whatmakes them come to you in the
first place?
Are they suspicious that theyhave that diagnosis?
Do you work with other people aswell?
Like what brings people to yourpractice?
SPEAKER_02 (50:29):
Yeah, a lot.
So so because I say that Ispecialize in in childhood
trauma and just any form oftrauma that someone's been
through, a lot of people comebecause of that.
And they come wanting to explorethat.
And sometimes they they come andthey feel very fractured and
they feel like I have no ideawhat's going on.
(50:51):
Like I feel like Dr.
Google has told me thatdissociation is something that
I'm experiencing.
And so I have no idea what thatis, or I've never heard about
that before, but it kind ofmakes sense and stuff like that.
And then they come in and it'svery clear to me either, yes,
(51:11):
they do have dissociativeidentity disorder after going
through like a thorough historyof their symptoms and a very
thorough history of like anassessment of different things
that they've been experiencingfor them to be diagnosed with
that, or a differentdissociative disorder.
Or maybe it is post-traumaticstress disorder and there's
(51:35):
those dissociative symptoms toit.
There's all sorts of differentdifferent ways that people end
up coming in.
And some people did getdiagnosed by someone else, by
another provider, who says, Iknow enough to know that this is
what you have, but I am nottrained enough for this, or I
(51:57):
have not gone through enoughtraining for it.
So let's let's find someonetogether for you to go see.
And a lot of times people willend up finding me through all of
that.
SPEAKER_01 (52:08):
Can I ask you one thing?
We got to wrap up because youyou have a deadline.
But I one of the things that youand I found in common was was
that therapy is only effectiveif the person who is seeking the
therapy wants to do somethingabout their life, if they want
to do the work to actually heal.
How do you do you work withpeople to help them understand
that?
Or do most people who come toyou, are they ready to work?
(52:28):
Like, how do you help peopleunderstand how to use therapy in
a proactive way to actually getto recovery and healing rather
than just staying stuck?
SPEAKER_02 (52:39):
Yeah, I feel like most people come in of their own
free free will and their ownlike choice to make to make the
decision to walk in the door.
I have had some who it's mostlyit's mostly teenagers.
Like some teenagers who don'twant to be there, but their
parents feel like they need tobe there and stuff.
And they're they want to sitback on the couch and not do
(53:01):
anything and stuff, and we justchat and try to build this
connection with each other, andand I usually will just like
express to them of like, hey,you're here anyways, right now.
How can we make this not a wasteof your time?
Because obviously, like it seemslike you're fine with just
sitting back and not wanting todo anything for the next hour,
(53:23):
but like what would it whatwould make this actually helpful
for you or something that you'dactually maybe look forward to
coming to?
And usually we're able to findsome creative modalities to be
able to work together and anduncover some different things.
And I mean, neurofeedback is oneof those of those modalities
(53:44):
that a lot of those that arestuck are willing to try.
And then as they work throughthat, then eventually it's like,
no, I actually want to startworking through this because I
noticed this is actuallypreventing me from having a
happier life.
SPEAKER_01 (54:02):
Amazing.
SPEAKER_02 (54:03):
Eddie, if somebody wants to connect with you, how
can they how can they well my mywebsite is one, so psychology
today is also another place tofind find me and a slew of other
therapists.
And also even just reaching outto me through email.
That's that's another great way.
If they were wanting to set up afree 15-minute consultation, no
(54:26):
strings attached and whatnot,they can find my calendar on my
website as well.
SPEAKER_01 (54:32):
And if you can share, this is always I should
have warned you, but I alwaysask people what's the one thing
that you hope somebody will takeaway from our conversation
today?
Is there one thing that you wantto make sure that's the last
word?
What would you like for peopleto take away from our
conversation?
SPEAKER_02 (54:47):
Okay.
Therapy does not have to be hardor scary, and healing is
possible.
SPEAKER_01 (54:54):
That's amazing.
I couldn't have said it bettermyself.
That's fantastic.
Thank you so much, Eddie.
I appreciate you coming ontoday.
This has been so illuminating.
I might have all these notesbecause I might want to go study
these things more now, but Iappreciate you coming on.
It has been really behind me.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_02 (55:09):
I appreciate you having me.
Thank you.
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (55:12):
All right, until next time, Upsiders.
Thanks for joining me on theUpside of Bipolar.
Your journey to recoverymatters, and I'm grateful you're
here.
For more resources, visitwww.theupsideofbipolar.com.
If you're ready to dive deeper,grab my book, The Upside of
(55:33):
Bipolar, seven steps to healyour disorder.
If you're ready to heal yoursymptoms, join my monthly
membership, The Upsiders Tribe,to transform chaos into hope.
Until next time, Upsiders
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Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by Audiochuck Media Company.
The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show
The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show. Clay Travis and Buck Sexton tackle the biggest stories in news, politics and current events with intelligence and humor. From the border crisis, to the madness of cancel culture and far-left missteps, Clay and Buck guide listeners through the latest headlines and hot topics with fun and entertaining conversations and opinions.