April 14, 2026 • 52 mins
We talk with trauma therapist Janey Nelson about why symptoms are not proof you’re broken and how healing can happen when we stop judging emotions and start getting curious about their roots. We dig into Accelerated Resolution Therapy and Critical Memory Integration as practical tools to reduce triggers, resolve trauma responses, and rebuild safety in the body and in relationships.
• Janey’s path into therapy through foster parenting, cancer, and building Healthier U Counseling Center
• What ART is and how bilateral stimulation can reduce sensations and emotions tied to trauma
• Why ART can feel faster and less destabilizing than EMDR for some people
• How CMI traces today’s triggers back to core childhood wounds and unmet needs
• A firefighter example of anger dissolving after connecting with a younger self
• Why diagnosis and symptom labels can kill curiosity and slow recovery
• How CMI can work in groups and retreats to reduce isolation and increase hope
• Why talk therapy alone can keep you stuck in the “logic brain”
• The clinic philosophy of safety, peace, and trauma proficient care across modalities
• How strong intake questions about trauma, sleep, diet, and story reveal the real problem
• Boundaries explained as internal vs external and why boundaries are not rules
• How we decide when individual work supports couples work and vice versa
• Tips for finding best practice trauma treatment and researching modalities safely
LINKS:
INSTAGRAM: healthieryoucc
FACEBOOK: Healthier You
WEBSITE: www.healthieryouc.com
BIO:
Janey is the owner and Clinical Director of Healthier You Counseling Center and has been a therapist for about 20 years. In 2024, she trained in Critical Memory Integration (CMI) and is on the CMI Training Leadership team. Janey was one of the first Accelerated Resolution Therapy (ART) practitioners in Utah, being trained in 2017 and master trained in 2019.
One of her passions is helping others discover their best selves. She does this by creating healthy relationships with clients in individual, marriage, family, and group therapy. Janey helps facilitate empowerment retreats for women and couples. Due to marriage and family being so important to her, she runs Gottman and Layers of Love relationship groups. Additionally, Janey facilitates other groups as the need arises. One of the things she is working on for the CMI Team is to develop CMI for groups.
Her greatest beliefs is that it is important to love everyone, no matter the circumstances. She shows love by practicing kindness, which she believes is honest, assertive, respectful, and loving. It is this belief that helps Janey connect with her clients and develop the bonds of trust that allow them to grow.
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SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
You are not broken.
No matter what you've been told,no matter how you feel, you are
not broken.
And there is you can kill.
You can kill.
SPEAKER_00 (00:15):
Welcome to the Upside of Bipolar, where we
uncover the true sources ofbipolar symptoms and share
proven tools for recovery.
I'm your host, MichelleReitinger, number one
international best-sellingauthor of the Upside of Bipolar
Seven Steps to Heal YourDisorder.
In this podcast, I bring yousolo insights from my journey
and guest interviews withleading researchers and experts.
(00:36):
Join us to transform chaos intohope and reclaim your life.
Let's heal together.
Welcome to the Upside ofBipolar.
I am your host, MichelleReitinger, and I have a
fantastic guest today.
I'm so excited to introduceJanie Nelson to you.
Janie is the owner and clinicaldirector of Healthier U
(00:58):
Counseling Center and has been atherapist for about 20 years.
In 2024, she trained in criticalmemory integration, CMI, and is
on the CMI training leadershipteam.
Janie was one of the firstaccelerated resolution therapy
practitioners in Utah, beingtrained in 2017 and master
trained in 2019.
(01:19):
One of her passions is helpingothers discover their best
selves.
She does this by creatinghealthy relationships with
clients in individual marriage,family, and group therapy.
Janie helps facilitateempowerment retreats for women
and couples.
Due to marriage and family beingso important to her, she runs
Gottman and Layers of LoveRelationship Groups.
Additionally, Janie facilitatesother groups as need arises.
(01:40):
One of the things she is workingon for the CMI team is
developing CMI for groups.
Her greatest belief is that itis important to love everyone,
no matter the circumstances.
She shows love by practicingkindness, which she believes is
honest, assertive, respectful,and loving.
It is this belief that helpsJanie connect with her clients
and develop bonds of trust thatallow them to grow.
(02:01):
To add to Janie's professionalexperience, she is a wife,
mother, grandmother, and greatgrandmother.
She has was a foster parent formore than 22 years.
And during that time, she wasawarded Utah's Child Advocate of
the Year.
Janie loves to cook, enjoysnature, quilting, jewelry
making, stained glass, her newhobby, and a man and many other
hobbies.
(02:21):
She finds peace as she creates.
Janie practices mindfulnessdaily in each of these
activities, and they keep hergrounded and in touch with
herself.
Welcome, Jamie.
I'm so excited for thisconversation today.
SPEAKER_01 (02:33):
That's kind of fun.
That's fun to hear thatintroduction again.
I haven't read it for a minute.
SPEAKER_00 (02:38):
Yeah, it's it's you're very well rounded, and
I'm super excited to dig intowhat you do.
So thank you so much for comingon today.
So we always start with yourstory.
So will you please share yourstory with our audience?
SPEAKER_01 (02:50):
Sure.
My story goes back many years.
I was five when I knew my jobwas to help others.
But uh five, you don't know whatthat means, right?
And so I always try to dothings.
I was the friend that would showup and help with that.
I helped my siblings a lot.
I worked with my mom and dad,worked in my dad's office for a
long time, but I don't know whathelp bothers me.
So when I was young, got marriedat 18, started raising kids.
(03:12):
My husband said, You can't workoutside the home.
I said, Okay, so I became afoster parent and I took the
structured kids, the kids whowere one step away from being in
residence.
I did that for quite a fewyears.
Well, I was about 40.
My own children were struggling.
My youngest and I was talking toGod one day and he said, Go to
school, and I said no.
And he said, Go to school, and Isaid no.
And he said, Go to school, and Isaid, Okay.
(03:35):
And I went to college and I didzero college to my master's in
six years exactly.
And during that time I hadcancer twice, but I still
completed it in six years andjust started doing the therapy
thing.
Well, I get a little bit olderand I've worked with
residential.
I worked with my best friend fora while, and I was talking to
God and he said, open apractice.
I was almost 60.
I'm thinking, why am I gonnaopen a practice?
(03:56):
So I said no, and he said, opena practice, and I said no, and
he said, open a practice, and Isaid, Okay, which is how
healthier you came about.
So that's that's kind of thestory that has gotten me to this
point.
And that's been Healthier Youhas been a journey in and of
itself, a beautiful journey, onethat I love and I'm grateful to
be part of.
SPEAKER_00 (04:13):
Yeah, I I was so impressed when I looked at your
clinic.
I was looking at the websiteonline, and you have some
incredible practitioners there.
And there's such a diversity ofmodalities, too, that I haven't
seen.
I'm sure that I'm I'm not sayingthat there aren't other clinics
out there, but I've never seen aclinic with the breadth of
modality experience that youhave with your practitioners.
(04:34):
And one, I I want to talk to youabout the two that you
specialize in.
So the ART, acceleratedresolution therapy.
We have had one practitioner onbefore, but I'd like to hear
your introduction to what ART isand how it facilitates healing.
And then I want to explore thecritical memory integration
because I have never had apractitioner on that does that.
And you've got not justyourself, but you've got others
(04:55):
in your clinic that practicethat as well.
SPEAKER_01 (04:57):
So our clinic is trauma proficient.
So a lot of clinics aretrauma-informed, right?
But we are all of us are in bestpractices of trauma.
So back in 2017, I cook for funand I was asked to cook at a
retreat with veterans.
And so I'm just in the kitchendoing my thing, and they all,
where do men hang out?
In the kitchen with the food.
And every one of them talked tome about how ART had changed
(05:20):
their life.
So I went home to my best friendand I said, Okay, we're going
to, I'm gonna go learn thisskill.
She said, Okay, and we went andwe were trained in ART.
And and what it is for me, atrauma is not what happens to
you.
Trauma is how you think and feelabout it.
So ART, when you get trained init, what you find is that we're
(05:41):
reducing the emotions andsensations around the trauma.
Well, trauma is now just a fact.
It's nothing more than a fact.
Um, this happened to me at thistime.
ART is so powerful, we don't useit before court case.
So if a victim goes in and theyjust say, This happened to me,
it's a fact and there's noemotion, juries don't believe
them.
Right.
So we can't remove the emotionright before a court case.
(06:03):
But some of the most powerfulexperiences is helping someone I
work a lot with police and fire,watching them walk out of here
with a trauma they've carriedfor years and now it's not a big
deal.
We're talking 45 minutes to anhour and 15 minutes.
SPEAKER_00 (06:16):
That's it.
So how does that how does thatmodality work?
Can you can you explain?
So like I don't know if there'sa way to explain it simply.
SPEAKER_01 (06:23):
A lot of bilateral stimulation, and we take you out
of the prefrontal cortex and putyou back into your amygdala,
right, which is where we holdour emotions or hormonal
regulation.
We take you out of the logicbrain.
We try and logic awayeverything.
And as as you use a bilateralstimulation, it's very scripted,
and the clients don't have totell me what they're working on.
(06:44):
So a lot of times people don'twant to talk because they don't
want secondary trauma, theydon't want great trauma in the
therapist.
So I say, give me one sentenceof what you're working on.
It might be a car accident Isaw.
Great, that's all I need toknow.
I don't need to know more.
And they don't have to shareanything throughout.
So it's bilateral stimulation,and then we do we erase and we
(07:04):
erase the sensations andemotions and replace them with
positive.
We positise things that arenegative in their life.
And they get it.
SPEAKER_00 (07:12):
That's incredible.
SPEAKER_01 (07:12):
They get to do it.
Yeah.
So fascinating to watch.
I just say, let's do this, andtheir brain will go there.
It just goes there.
SPEAKER_00 (07:20):
So I know that bilateral stimulation is similar
to what is used in EMDR.
So can you talk about what thedifference is between those two
modalities?
SPEAKER_01 (07:29):
Um, I am not an EMDR therapist, so that's going to be
hard for me to tell you thedifference from what my
training, but I can tell youwhat I've been told.
I've been told with EMDR, and Ihave seen this because my best
friend is an EMDR therapist, isEMDR you can process for hours,
days, months, years afterwards.
You have a session and youprocess afterwards.
What my clients have told me,what the therapists I've had
(07:51):
that have been trained in both,have told me is ART is EMDR on
steroids.
It's faster, it's quicker, it'sless traumatizing to the client,
it's less traumatizing to thetherapist.
So when you walk out of myoffice after an ART session,
that issue is gone.
It is resolved.
Done.
Can I share an experience ofthat?
Yeah, I'd love, I'd love to hearthat.
Yeah.
The first officer I did it on,who had his body cam on the
(08:13):
whole time and I didn't realizeit, right?
His first officer, he was anofficer for 20-something years,
but his first officer-involvedshooting was in Orm.
And he was every time he drovedown the street, he got nauseous
and ready to throw that memoryof that officer involved
shooting.
So I did an ART session on thatfor him.
He came in the next time hesaid, What did you do to me?
And I said, What do you mean?
(08:34):
What did I do to you?
And he said, I was on thatstreet and I didn't even realize
no more nausea, no more anxietydriving down the same street one
session.
SPEAKER_00 (08:41):
That's incredible.
I wish that I'd I wish I'd knownthat before I'd done the EMDR.
And I don't want to bag EMDR.
It it was a huge blessing forme, but yeah, it was like it was
like a month and a half of likeserious trauma because I was
reprocessing everything and Iwas it felt like I was back in
the experience for a month and ahalf.
It was a very distressingexperience.
SPEAKER_01 (09:01):
So because EMDR focuses on a emotion, we focus
on the whole thing from start tofinish.
And we actually at the very endof ART, we have them visualize
their future.
What does your future look likewith this gone?
Right?
And and that's powerful.
It's like, wait, I can enjoy mykids now.
I can drive down a street Icouldn't drive down before.
(09:22):
I don't have to drink as much.
Yeah.
Like we get all kinds of thingsthat are just just beautiful.
It's beautiful.
SPEAKER_00 (09:28):
Yeah, that's incredible.
So I want to shift to criticalmemory integration because I've
never had anybody, I don't Iwill be honest, I've read about
it, but I don't reallyunderstand it.
So I would love for you toexplain what critical memory
integration is and how it isused in your practice.
SPEAKER_01 (09:43):
Okay.
So we talk about trauma and ART.
So here's the trauma experience.
Why can one person be have a seea the same car accident as
someone else and this one'straumatized and this one isn't?
Does that make sense?
We're asking all the time.
How come many people can gothrough the same trauma and it
affects some people in one wayand some people in another?
(10:03):
So critical memory criticalmemory integration actually to
me is why that affects you.
So trauma, this experiencehappened.
Why am I reacting to it?
And usually it's a childhoodwound somewhere that we have to
look at.
An experience in childhood morethan this trauma.
So critical memory integrationgets to our core selves.
And it can be fast.
(10:27):
And we we let them explore, weget curious about the emotion
and the sensation in your body.
And what I do with my clients isI say, let's let's just get
curious.
You're feeling a lot of anxietyin your chest, let that grow.
Let's get curious about thatanxiety.
Let's see what it looks like.
Give it a color, give it asound, give it a taste if you
need to, and we let it grow andgrow and grow and get bigger,
(10:49):
and then we look inside, right?
And look inside at what'sinside.
Usually it's them as children.
I'll give you a good example ofthat one, and then I'll tell you
how we work with it.
I had a firefighter in here andhe was pissed.
He was so angry because he hadto go do training on how to
clear a room that's in a fire,especially with funk beds.
I said, help me understand that.
Tears in his eyes.
He said, Because if someonewould have done it right, I
(11:10):
wouldn't have had to find thefour-year-old.
And I said, Okay, so I startedsome ART, and I these two work
really well in correlation.
And he had this emotion and itkept getting bigger and bigger.
And I changed his CMI and Isaid, Okay, let's get inside
that anger.
As we got inside, he was alittle four-year-old sitting on
a bunch of bed and no one cameto him when he was sad.
And no one helped him.
(11:32):
So I said, Let's set with thatfour-year-old.
As an adult, older, wiserfirefighter, set with the
four-year-old little guy whowanted help and listened to what
he has to say to you.
And he said, The little boytalked to him, he was a little
younger self talked to him.
And his older, wiser selfreassured his younger self.
And through it all, through itall, his little guy quit crying.
(11:53):
He said, Someone does care abouthim.
SPEAKER_02 (11:56):
And the anger dissipated was gone.
SPEAKER_01 (11:59):
So he's angry about having to teach how to clear a
room because his littlefour-year-old self was never
held or held or nurtured.
And when he could do that, butnow it's okay.
So that's incredible.
Critical memory integration, itgoes to your core self, the core
wounds that make us respond tothings the way we do.
And it's not it's just it's abeautiful process.
SPEAKER_02 (12:23):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (12:24):
And it's and I I think when I I love I love
listening to descriptions ofthese types of modalities
because one of the big problemswe have in our society is we've
pathologized symptoms.
We have created pathology aroundanxiety, around depression,
around, you know, even mania,and and it ends curiosity into
the source.
We stopped looking for the wethought stop looking for the
(12:45):
source because we believe we'vebeen given an answer.
When we're given a diagnosis,bipolar diagnosis, uh, you know,
obviously is the focus of thispodcast, but people stop looking
for answers.
And I stopped looking foranswers.
I spent, you know, 12 years inpsychiatric treatment on drugs
and in and out of hospitals, andtherapy was totally useless
because I was doing talktherapy.
And when you stay in the upperpart of your brain, you don't
(13:06):
actually ever get to the, youknow, I can be super logical.
And I was an expert on all theissues that I had, but I
couldn't fix them.
I couldn't resolve them.
And when we start looking, Ilove what you said, looking with
curiosity.
When we are taught topathologize these symptoms like
anxiety or anger or, you know,you know, depression, there is
no curiosity, there's judgment.
(13:27):
We're judging the emotions andsaying that they're bad and we
want to suppress them with drugsor, you know, get them to go
away.
They're a disorder, our brain issomething's wrong with our
brain.
But when we look with curiosityinto it, why is our brain
reacting that way?
What is what is the source?
What's actually causing thebrain to react this way?
And I love what you're sayingabout sitting with it and
allowing it to grow so that youcan get inside of it and find
(13:49):
out like, where did this comefrom in the first place?
And then you can give the personwhat they actually need to, you
know, and integrate, you know,integrate that back in so that
they're so they're not gettingtriggered.
You know, one of the things Iwant to ask you a little bit
about this in your experience,it took a long time for me to
unwind all of the differentsymptoms I experienced because
because everything got lumpedinto buckets, so anxiety was all
(14:11):
lumped into one bucket anddepression was all lumped into
one bucket, you know, and so ittook years for me to parse out
symptoms and start seeing themas in, you know, as separate,
you know, the the issues thatthey were and the separate
sources that they had, you know.
So I started recognizing not allof my anxiety acts the same.
No, you know, some of theanxiety is like my body is not
getting the nutrition it needs,and I'm it, you know, things are
(14:34):
not behaving, my brain does notbehaving the way that it should.
Some of it is like traumaresponses to things.
You know, I have a situationhappen and I don't feel safe,
and my brain goes into fight orflight, and I my body starts to
my chest gets tight, I can'tbreathe.
And so then, you know, whatyou're talking about is taking
that further and looking insideof it and saying, What why do I
feel unsafe in this situation?
(14:55):
What it is about this situationthat makes my brain feel why
can't you breathe?
SPEAKER_01 (14:59):
Let's get curious about that.
Yeah.
Right.
And so then we get curious aboutthat, and it takes you back to
an instant where you didn't feelsafe.
The first time your chest wastight and you nurture that
little girl.
You, as an older, wiser self,can can heal your little girl
whose chest was tight and didn'tfeel safe.
But we don't know that we can dothat.
So, one of the things we do is Iteach my clients to do that all
(15:21):
the time.
After we do a CMI session, I'llsay you can do this at home.
You can visit your little girlas often as you want to visit
her.
Anytime you feel a sensation,let's just just get curious
about it.
Ask her about it.
And that little girl can be evenpre-birth, was my little girl.
Wow.
My little girl was still inwhatever the world.
I think it's a pre-existencebefore we came to this earth.
(15:44):
I was conceived out of rape.
I didn't want to come.
I didn't want to be on thisearth.
And I never felt like Ibelonged.
And my CMI session took me backand helped me learn to belong.
And that was two years ago.
Two years ago, I finally feltlike I belonged on this earth
because I was able to heal whatI call my zygo.
I gave her permission to behere.
That's incredible.
(16:05):
It was it was just an amazingexperience.
SPEAKER_00 (16:08):
Yeah.
One thing that I'm curious aboutis what is you said that in your
bio it says that you are workingwith the CMI team to develop
this for groups.
What does that look like?
SPEAKER_01 (16:17):
So I run retreats.
So that's in my bio too, right?
And I I love this concept ofCMI.
I love it.
I love the practice, I love thespirituality of it.
It's such a spiritual piece tome to be able to explore that
with clients.
Well, I because I ran groups,run groups, and because I run
retreats, I used it at one ofthe retreats right after I was
(16:40):
trained because we do tryretreats usually March and
September.
I was trained in February, wentto a retreat in March and I had
12 women there.
And we were working on I have toremember what that topic of that
retreat was because we changedthe topic every time.
Oh, we were working on becomingconnected to ourselves, walking
with ourselves, right?
So I just asked a question ofthe group.
(17:02):
I said, We're gonna go into thisthing.
Here's what I want you to thinkabout.
And we always I always invitethem to close their eyes and put
their hands on their chest,right?
Because this app actually givesyour body the physiological
response of a hug.
So you're nurturing yourself,you're hugging yourself.
And I asked the group to focuson when they learned when they
first realized they couldn'twalk.
(17:23):
Right.
And it was a little bit morecomplicated than that, a lot
more detail.
And all 12 women participatedexcept for one who said it was
too hard, she walked out, whichis fine too.
It's okay.
And we had different emotions.
Some people were sobbing, somepeople were upset, some people
were not.
It was it was beautiful, andthen they came back and shared.
(17:44):
Well, we want to do that moreoften, you know.
Can you imagine that in a groupof veterans?
Can you imagine that in a groupof women who've just been with a
part of it?
Yeah.
Right?
All of those things.
And so my goal is to help thatwe can, you know, um, help more
people in a smaller instead ofan hour, an hour, an hour.
(18:06):
And CMI can take anywhere from10 minutes to an hour.
It really doesn't have a timelimit on it.
Can you imagine having 10-15people at one time in that hour
instead of one person and thehealing process that comes with
it?
And I've run it in three groups,three retreats I read.
And the outcome is beautiful.
It's just beautiful.
(18:26):
Usually in groups, we let themjournal afterwards.
Just journal about yourexperience and then share a few
more.
I remember one girl said that onthe very first one she was 17,
pregnant, wasn't tellinganything.
And it was the first time sheallowed that 17-year-old to
grieve what her life is.
Isn't that CMI session?
That could be CMI session.
SPEAKER_02 (18:45):
That's incredible.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (18:48):
I can't imagine.
I I can.
I actually think that it'sreally incredible because with
my coaching group, you know,there is so much power in the
feeling like somebody elseunderstands what you're going
through.
And, you know, it's I I canimagine, especially with like
especially the application withveterans, you know, where
there's other people because alot of times I've, you know,
(19:08):
when I do speak with veterans, Iactually had a you know,
somebody on my podcast a coupleweeks ago that was she's a
veteran and ended up in thepsychiatric system and just
totally traumatized bypsychiatric drugs and that.
And nobody asked her.
Like the things, if you thinkabout what she went through, you
know, she was in the firstdeployment for the, you know,
for the Iraq war.
(19:29):
There were so many people thatwere suffering and nobody
understood what they were goingthrough, and they just started
labeling it with psychiatricdisorders and drugging them up.
Yeah.
And and we wonder why we have somany veterans who are who are
giving up, you know, and and tobe able to help them in a in a
setting where they feel likethey're not the only one.
It's not the only you know,they're not the only person
going through this is reallyincredible.
I can't, you know, that would bean incredibly powerful approach.
SPEAKER_01 (19:53):
Then that's why I like group work.
So many people feel they'realone.
And they're not.
I'm running a Gottman groupright now with six couples and
they're married four months tothirty years.
And the their experience theyshare and they realize they're
not alone, and they realize thatothers understand.
Well, I love that with with ourI train, do mental health
(20:14):
training in our policedepartments, right?
And and to do some of that andhelp them understand and be able
to have a safe place to talkabout those experiences and to
learn how to deal with it.
Group work is powerful.
Powerful because you're notalone.
And it it's the first time manypeople feel like others
understand.
So then doing CMI in groupswhere you're having the same
experience, that's completelydifferent, but the same.
(20:37):
Because it's individual to you,but these other people
understand the experiencebecause they're having it.
SPEAKER_00 (20:42):
Yeah, and I one of the things that I love about
this too, a lot of my initialexperience, so the first at
least 12 years, maybe 15 yearsof my experience with therapy,
group therapy, and that wasterrible.
Yeah.
And I hated it.
I I didn't, and a lot of it hadto do with feeling like we were
just all w wallowing in ourmisery together.
There was no, there was no,there was nothing offered that
(21:05):
made me feel hope or made mefeel like we were going to get
out of what we were goingthrough.
I felt like we were all justbeing victims together.
And there was uh one experiencethat I had where I was in an I
had been hospitalized and wasreleased into an outpatient
program.
And I went one day and I refusedto go back.
I'm like, that's making meworse.
I'm not gonna do that againbecause I felt like I felt more
(21:27):
depressed after the groupsession than I did before I went
into it.
And I realized that it's thesame, it was the same issue that
I was having with therapy, whichwas talk therapy was staying in
the upper part of my brain.
And I was not able to access thelower part of my brain where all
of the trauma and the anxietyresponses and the you know,
depressive responses, all ofthose emotional responses to the
(21:48):
trauma existed.
And I would just talk about theproblems, which made them
bigger.
It made them feel worse.
It made me feel like I and Ikept quitting therapy because
I'm like, that just makes mefeel worse and I can do that for
free with a friend.
Like I don't need to paysomebody for that.
And so it took a long time forme to understand that therapy
could actually help because Ididn't and I didn't know
(22:09):
anything about modalities.
And the things that you'retalking about are so they feel
revolutionary to me, honestly,because I'm I I don't think I
feel like there are is a and Idon't know if it's I I don't
know if it really is justhappening in the last like 15
years, maybe, that all of asudden there's like all of these
different therapy modalitiesthat are are helping us to get
(22:30):
to the source of trauma andactually resolve the sources of
trauma and helping peopleactually heal.
Whereas in the past, it was justtalking about our problems.
And I think that there's valuein things like cognitive
behavioral therapy anddialectical behavioral therapy
and that.
But if you are not treating thesource, I think that you can
stay on the surface with those,with those treatment approaches
because you're not, it's thesame kind of thing.
(22:52):
We're staying in the upper partof our brains with those often
and not able to actually accessand resolve the underlying
sources.
So I feel like there's likelayers of treatment that need to
happen where you get first, weresolve all these really tough
issues.
And I'm excited about the ARTand the CMI, you know, as
additional therapy modalitiesfor people to look into.
(23:12):
And then you can start workingon the thought patterns that
were created when we, you know,because of the trauma, right?
SPEAKER_01 (23:18):
Yeah.
And that that's exactly right.
I dbt, CBT, we use them, right?
I'm I'm trained and we use them,but we use them logically.
We don't use them emotionally.
Right.
And they're just symptoms.
All those are doing is dealingwith the symptoms.
If I want to heal the wholeperson, I don't want to deal
with symptoms all the time.
And I'm a talk therapist, I cantalk with the best of them if
(23:41):
that's what we need.
Right?
But I can and I can teach skillswith the best of them, but I
can't go home with that.
I can't make them practice that.
And so much of that is practicedoutside of the therapy office,
that's not what we're doinginside.
Right.
Well, ART and CBT and CMI iswhat we're doing inside the
office.
And they don't have to practiceoutside because we've filled the
(24:03):
wound.
And you still can do CBT, youcan still do DBT, you can still
do ACT, you can still do all ofit, and they're great skills,
but they're treating symptoms.
They're not treating them.
SPEAKER_00 (24:13):
Yeah.
And one of the things that Irecently started like
understanding better is for me,for example, when when you have
wounding, especially if you havewounding in your childhood, our
brain tries to cope with it.
It try, it comes up with ways ofcoping.
And some people have veryobvious coping mechanisms, you
know, like drugs and alcohol,right?
But there are things that arenot as obvious, you know,
(24:33):
negative thought and behaviorpatterns that that are internal
that people don't see that theperson is suffering and that
that's how their brain haslearned to cope.
We have so many people who are,you know, I had a practitioner
on recently that works withpeople who dissociate, you know,
and he was talking about howmost of us dissociate in some
form or another.
You know, it's not, it's not tothe extreme that somebody ends
up with like a diagnosis ofdissociated identity disorder,
(24:55):
but but when we're likescrolling, you know, they call
it doom scrolling or, you know,getting lost in binge watching
shows and things like that wasone of my coping mechanisms for
years, you know, and the thoughtand behavior patterns that
develop out of these things, alot of times you can resolve the
underlying issue.
So, you know, we I talked I talka lot about, you know,
identifying the source.
Let's identify what's the actualsource of the trauma, what's
(25:18):
what's going on here.
Identify that, resolve it.
But then you have to like createnew habits.
You know, you have to likechange the way your brain thinks
now because you've spent, youknow, 40 years thinking this way
about yourself because of thison you know, the trauma.
And now the trauma's gone, butyou have this habit that you've
created.
So there's like, that's one ofthe things I want to talk a
little bit more about how youryour clinic evolved.
(25:38):
Because one of the things I wastalking with, I'm blanking on
her name, but she's uh one ofyour one of your, she does,
she's a coach there.
Mo, yes.
So I was talking to her, and oneof the things we were talking
about, she's, you know, she's alife coach that works in your
practice.
And she said she might beworking with somebody and they
discover that there's somethings that need to be resolved.
So then she can refer them topractitioners in your practice.
(26:00):
And I'm like, that is brilliant,because a lot of times people
don't understand.
Like I said, you know, wepathologize these issues, you
know, and so people think theyhave a disorder and they don't
think that there's anything theycan do about it.
So they're working, they'retaking medication and they're
working with a life coach, butnothing's working because
they're working on the surfacewith all of this stuff.
And I love with your practice,and I'd love to hear a little
(26:21):
bit more.
Like I said, I'll stop talkingin just a second, but but how
you developed your practice andyou know what what the
philosophy is there, because youhave so many different pieces
that are offered in yourpractice, you know, family
therapy, individual therapy,marriage counseling, you know,
life coach that all can worktogether if you've got
practitioners that understandhow to start like getting to the
(26:43):
sources of issues and how do wehow do we create a plan that's
going to help somebody not justsolve their own issues, but then
start working on the system, youknow, the family system that has
now been harmed by somebodystruggling with their mental
health.
So can you talk about yourpractice and how you evolved
into the practice that you havenow?
SPEAKER_01 (27:01):
Well, again, it's such a God thing for me.
There is no coincidence in mypractice.
Nuts.
I can't tell you how many timesthere's been someone in crisis
and I had a cancellation right.
I can't, but my biggest thing,and I'll tell you, my biggest
thing is I want everybody whowalks through my door to feel a
sense of safety and peace thatthey can't feel anywhere else.
And a good an example of that,it was really kind of funny, is
(27:22):
when someone calls in and we askthem how they heard heard about
us.
You know, that's just part ofour intake.
And um, I get DoorDash deliveredkind of regularly because I
don't have time to do anythingelse.
This girl said, I I deliveredthe DoorDash three months ago,
and I thought if I ever neededtherapy, I wanted to come to
somewhere that made me feel likeyou're practicing it.
So that is my number one goal.
(27:43):
When you walk through my door, Iwant you to feel a sense of
safety and peace.
And if my practitioners can'tcontribute to that, they can't
be part of us.
So I'm very, you know, veryprayerful about who I hire.
I just have a brand new studentwho just graduated from school,
and I said to Mo last year, I'mnot taking any more students,
I'm done.
I don't want to intern anymore.
(28:03):
And then I got this resume, andGod said you're supposed to work
with them.
I'm like, okay, whatever.
So it's such a God journey forme.
Okay.
When we open, I just went aroundto different businesses by us
and said, Hey, we're here justletting you know.
Can I walk into the policedepartment in Linden, Utah,
which is a very small policestore?
Can I talk to the chief and Isaid, Hey, we're here, and he
(28:24):
said, I believe in therapy.
And I believe all our firstresponders need therapy, and my
guys will start coming to seeyou.
Right after that happened,George Floyd in Minnesota
happened, right?
And I had someone approach mewho said, My friend and I were
talking about it, but we decidedinstead of talking about George
Floyd, we should be about it.
And I know you work with firstresponders.
(28:45):
Can we start a nonprofit?
I said, You know, we talkedabout the dream, and the dream
was that all first responders inthe state of Utah could receive
therapy.
So I started a nonprofit and itwas beautiful.
We helped train over 200therapists in Utah and ART.
Um, and we got contracted withall these um departments
throughout the state of Utah.
Well, nonprofit was sosuccessful that we couldn't fund
(29:08):
it anymore.
We were spending sixty thousanddollars a month in the state of
Utah for first respondertherapy.
Our funders just ran out ofmoney, right?
So that kind of started ourjourney.
In that journey, I realized thatthey needed more.
They did more.
I was already trained in ART,but they needed more.
(29:29):
And so I still work with a lotof first responders, but I
needed someone needs IFS, theyneed parts for it.
I'm not an IFS therapist, butHarmony is.
And she's also trained in ARTand CMO.
So all of my therapists have tobe trained in ART and CMO.
That is required.
I don't like to do addictionwork.
Now we get it all the time, butSpencer, my new student who just
(29:50):
graduated, is very good inaddiction work.
So so I want to be able to healand not just treat, heal the
majority.
I don't want to be able to justtalk to the majority.
And so as they start learningthings, we have a women's visual
art group.
(30:10):
We have an art studio becausesome people can't talk about it.
There's a sign back there thatsays I can say things in color
and shape that words will neverexpress.
Right?
So we do it's just whatever theneed is.
I run a boundaries group becausesomeone said, I don't understand
them.
How do we do boundaries?
Okay, let's run boundaries.
(30:31):
Right?
So we run a group, but mypractitioners all have to be
trained in best practices, andthen they can branch out from
there in what is best practiceto them.
IFS is great.
It's great.
I think it's beautiful.
I think it's beautiful.
But that's not where I go.
And I want them to have theirown personalities and their own
explore their own journeys andfind out what works for them
(30:53):
after you train an ART in CMI.
I have a practitioner right nowwho is of active duty military,
he's my age, active dutymilitary, getting ready to
resign to retire, who's been allover the world doing therapy for
veterans.
And now he's he's worked for theDepartment of Public Health,
which I didn't know was amilitary department, it is,
(31:15):
doing it helping veterans getoccupational therapy and
physical therapy and thoseresources, and then he does
therapy.
Well, my other veteran who's wasa a captain in Iraq, colonel in
Iraq, doesn't want to talk to meabout that experience, it'll
talk to him.
So we have to have thatdiversity and that breadth of
modalities so the needs can getmet.
SPEAKER_00 (31:38):
Yeah, I was in, I was I was starting to go through
and try and make a list.
I was going through all of theirbios in there, and I you have
IFS, CBT, DBT, mindfulness-basedstress reduction, acceptance,
you know, AI acceptance andcommitment therapy, which is
ACT, EMDR.
I, you know, so I was just like,this is incredible.
All of these modalities in onein one clinic is really
(32:00):
impressive.
And I said, I think I told youbefore we started recording
there.
I'm not saying that there aren'tother clinics out there like
this, but this is the first oneI found.
And I've done a lot of researchbecause not just for myself, but
for, you know, I've got peopleasking me all the time, like,
well, you know, where where canI get good therapy?
And I I want to have goodpractitioners that I can refer
(32:20):
people to.
And this is like seriously oneof the most impressive clinics
that I've seen.
And I'm not saying that to tryand like stroke your ego.
It's just really impressive.
It's really amazing because mostpeople when they go seek therapy
don't know what they're doing.
I I remember when I was sent togo, you know, to therapy the
first time, I was like, I don'tunderstand why I'm doing this,
and I don't understand what I'msupposed to do.
(32:42):
You know, I just and if you geta therapist, and therapists are
people, and they you can get youcan get a you know, a I
shouldn't say bad therapist, butan incompetent therapist.
SPEAKER_01 (32:51):
Like you know, I mean shop for that reason.
If if I'm not the righttherapist shop, yeah.
If I'm not the right therapistfor you, let's go help you find
one that is.
SPEAKER_00 (33:01):
But people don't know what to look for a lot of
times.
Like they don't understand likethe purpose of therapy, they
don't understand what to lookfor.
And I was being told that I wasI was going to therapy by, you
know, I was told bypsychiatrists I needed to go
learn coping mechanisms becausethere was no idea of me healing,
especially back in 1998 when Iwas first diagnosed, right?
And and every time I would go,it would make me feel awful.
(33:22):
And so I just kept quitting.
And I'm will be forever gratefulthat I listened to the last
person that was like, pleasejust try one more time.
It was a my church leader, andhe, I was in crisis at the time.
We were really struggling withsome pretty big family issues.
And and I was, you know, askedto try one more time.
And I'm like, I will try onemore time, but I'm never doing
it again if this is the same asit's been every other time.
(33:42):
And thankfully I ended up with agood practitioner who she was an
EMDR therapist, and it workedwonders when I went with her.
And that like revived my hope inthe industry.
And then, you know, but all allthese, all these different
modalities that you have givepeople options and they give
therapists so many tools to workwith to tailor their therapy to
(34:03):
the client and help the client.
You know, I always saytherapist, a good therapist is a
facilitator and they are helpingyou work with, you know, you be
in the driver's seat and youwork with healing and you know,
discovering and identifying andhealing your own issues so that
we don't feel like helpless.
We don't feel like a victim.
SPEAKER_01 (34:20):
That's why I want to teach, that's why I want to
teach my clients.
You can do this outside.
They can even do some some Imove outside to reduce body
sensations.
I teach them how to do that.
Right?
When you when you leave, if youstart to feel these body
sensations on any other, putyour hands about this far apart
or look at a window or a pictureand move your eyes back and
forth for about 30 seconds,recognize what's happening in
(34:40):
your body.
Usually it takes twice.
So be aware of that, sometimesthree times, but just notice the
sensations in your body.
Move your eyes back and forthabout shoulder.
Like I want them to have theskills.
If I if I get fired becausethey've learned it, great.
Yeah, great.
I don't want to keep clients for10, 15 years.
SPEAKER_00 (34:59):
Do I have to do there's plenty of well, and
there's plenty of people outthere that need help.
It's not like a therapist needsto keep on to the same clients
for the whole time.
You know, there's lots of peoplewho need help and not enough
good therapists to go around, inmy opinion.
unknown (35:13):
I agree.
SPEAKER_01 (35:14):
I agree.
And that's why I want to helpfacilitate some of the
trainings.
I want the therapist to havethese skills to be able to do
some of the things.
And that's that's difficult.
So I want to go oh go ahead.
The other thing I think isreally important in therapy is a
good intake session, right?
Yes.
I remember listening to you andno one asked you about trauma.
(35:35):
Well, I don't understand that.
I don't understand that becausethat's part of our intake form.
Our intake form we're askingabout your diet, we're asking
about your sleep, we're askingyou about your trauma, we're
asking you about youraddictions, we're asking all
those questions, and my style,which is different than most, I
ask them what they like to do.
What are your hobbies?
(35:55):
What makes you mad?
What things make you mad?
And I let 'em ask me a couplequestions because I'm gonna ask
them 700 questions over the nextlittle while.
You can ask me a couple, right?
SPEAKER_02 (36:07):
But because I'm asking you all these hard
things.
Yeah.
So it's it's it's part of theintake.
We have to know those things.
SPEAKER_00 (36:16):
Yeah, and that was one of the things that I loved
when I first talked to you.
It's why I wanted to interviewyou on my podcast, is there are
again, I keep going back tothis, but because we
pathologized these symptoms,there's no curiosity into what
else happened in your life.
That we all all we're beingasked is what the symptoms are,
severity, you know, frequency,you know, history of family
history of symptoms, like, youknow, family history of
(36:38):
psychiatric diagnosis.
And there's no nobody asked mewhen I went in for my initial
psychiatric physics.
Nobody asked me about my past.
Nobody asked me my story.
Nobody asked.
That's why I asked people totell me their stories all the
time.
Because there's so many clues inthe story.
Like when somebody starts, andit doesn't take very long.
You don't have to spend hoursand hours with somebody usually
to to find the clues of like,oh, we gotta work on this, we
(37:01):
gotta work on this.
Like, there's there's verythere's like gigantic red flags
that are like, well, the yes, ofcourse you've got these
symptoms.
These you've got these thingsthat have happened in your life,
you know.
This is your normal body'sreaction, your brain's reaction
to this trauma.
SPEAKER_01 (37:14):
And sometimes I don't even get to the symptoms
in my intake.
I don't even get to it becausethat's not most important.
Right.
Right.
I've always been told I wasdepressed.
Okay, we'll talk aboutdepression.
But that's what it is.
We'll talk about depression.
That's not the most important.
SPEAKER_00 (37:31):
Yeah.
Well, and I I had one time whenI was talking to somebody and
they told me that they werealways sad their whole life.
You know, she said, from myearly childhood, I was just sad.
And and the way she was sayingit was like, I just have always
had depression.
And so I started asking her somequestions and I said, So tell
me, let me, you said you fromyour childhood, what is what you
know, what tell me about yourchildhood?
(37:52):
And as she talked about it, itbecame very easy to understand
why that little girl felt sosad.
And I said, Did anybody ask youwhy you felt sad?
You know, and she said, Well,no, I just had depression.
And I said, But why were yousad?
And as we talked about it, Isaid, somebody should have said,
you know, and I said her name, Isaid, Why are you sad?
Tell me why you're sad and talkto you about, you know, as she
(38:16):
as you talked to me about yourchildhood, you had a sad
childhood.
Like, of course you were sad.
And nobody ever asked you aboutit.
Nobody ever gave that littlegirl what she needed.
And that's one of the things Iloved about what you were saying
when you were talking about likethe CMI and the ART, that those
needs weren't being met.
And so your brain is trying tomeet the needs in the best way
it can.
And as we're, you know, in ouryouth, we don't have the skills
(38:39):
necessary to understand whatwe're dealing with.
Or so we we come up with uhoften very unhealthy ways of
coping with things, right?
And then then if it'spathologized, then we think
we're broken, you know, and wewe develop this idea of who we
are based on you know all ofthese unhealthy things that that
got built around this trauma orthis, you know, the neglect or
whatever it was in the childhoodthat that left you feeling, you
(39:02):
know, unwell, left your brains,you know, grasping for things to
try and care for itself.
SPEAKER_01 (39:07):
Yeah.
And and so we survive.
We survive with the cards we'vebeen given.
SPEAKER_00 (39:12):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (39:12):
And it's not anybody's fault necessarily.
Sometimes there are neglect andabuse and things that we can
say.
You were victimized, but youdon't have to be a victim, which
is a big thing to me, right?
But we find these survivalskills.
Well, if we're have thesesurvival skills or maladapted
coping skills, right?
There's a reason underneaththat.
And yes, do I have to keep yousafe?
(39:34):
Yes.
Does your life matter?
Yes.
If you're suicidal, I willhospitalize you straight out.
Your life is more important tome, right?
But why are you suicidal?
Let's talk about that.
Let's figure it out because thatis just your coping skill,
right?
That's your survival skill.
(39:56):
Why did you have to survive?
Why can't you just enjoy lifeand thrive?
We have to figure that out.
SPEAKER_02 (40:03):
That's the piece that's more important because I
don't want to hospitalize you.
Right?
I want to help you deal.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (40:13):
I know.
The first time that I startedlearning about parts work and
IFS and that, I was kind of blewmy mind because all of a sudden
all of these things started tomake sense.
I'm like, oh.
So when I was experiencingsuicidal ideation for those
years that built up to theattempts, my brain was trying to
solve the problem and there wereno other options left.
And so it was like, well, thisis the only option we have left.
(40:34):
And so my so instead of feelinglike there's something really
wrong with me, it was starting,it was, it enabled me to start
having compassion for myself andrecognize like my brain was just
trying to help me.
Yeah.
And it was this, it was tryingto solve the problem and it had
gone through all of the otheroptions and there was nothing
left.
And so it was like, well, thisis the option.
So this is what we need to donow.
And it was not helping me in ahelpful way, but it was trying
(40:57):
to help me.
And it helped me to havecompassion for that part of
myself and not feel like there'slike, oh, don't tell people that
that's you know, normal peopledon't think things like that.
That was a thing that I thatkept me from asking for help for
years was don't tell anybodyyou're thinking that because
normal people don't think thatway, you know?
Yeah, they do.
SPEAKER_01 (41:15):
Everybody has had suicide ideation, everybody has
had thoughts of I don't want todo this anymore.
Life would be easier instead.
Right?
Everybody and they tell me theyhaven't, I know they're lying,
because everybody has.
That is normal.
And we can normalize some ofthat too.
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah, and and learn how to giveyour brain plan, that's a
(41:36):
different but everybody hasthoughts.
SPEAKER_00 (41:39):
Yeah.
And learning how to give yourbrain what it's asking for, like
learning how to listen in a waythat with curiosity and think,
okay, that's not healthy, butthere's something going on
that's making my brain reach outin an unhealthy, unhealthy way,
you know.
So, oh man, this is so amazing.
So when somebody comes to yourclinic, how do you decide like
(42:00):
how you know who who's gonnatreat them?
Is that is there like a methodto that or do they Yes and no?
unknown (42:07):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (42:07):
My I my schedule's very full, and I only do word of
mouth referrals.
So if they can't wait for myschedule and we know what their
need is, we get a little bit ofwhat their need is, that will
decide.
And again, it's a God thing forus.
It is.
Like I'll I'll read their intakebecause every intake goes
through me before they'reassigned, and I'll read their
(42:29):
intake and I'll say, Oh, thisperson needs this person needs
Jen.
Right?
Not everybody likes to docouples work.
Jen and I will do couples work,so that kind of narrows that
down, but it really is prayerfulto me.
And Mo is a rock star like that,she's very prayerful about
things too.
So she'll say, Jenny, here'sthis intake, and I think they
should go to this person, and Itrust her, and I know that
(42:51):
that's it.
So it really is just if they askfor someone directly, we get
them into that person directly.
If they ask, if they come inwith specific things, um,
whoever fits that need the best,but it's also who where they're
supposed to be.
SPEAKER_00 (43:09):
Can I ask you about boundaries?
I've talked about it on mypodcast myself.
Um, and I do think there are alot of people who don't really
understand what boundaries are.
They don't.
It's something that is like,especially when somebody, if
you've got it, especially inlike marriages and in family
systems, if you've got at leastone person in that family system
that is struggling with mentalhealth, and and even more,
(43:32):
especially if they have beendiagnosed with, you know, any
kind of psychiatric condition,you end up with unhealthy
boundaries just by default.
Like it's just there's just noway to, you know, it's almost
like people don't think thatit's possible to have healthy
boundaries in those situationsbecause that person is sick and
they can't help themselves,right?
And so then you end up with likeall these uh unhealthy dynamics.
And so I talk about how criticalhealthy boundaries are in order
(43:54):
to actually, you know, heal andrecover.
So can you talk?
Would you mind talking a littlebit about?
Like how you describe boundariesto people and what that looks
like, you know, so peopleunderstand.
Cause I think what there's somuch talk online about
boundaries and not all of itaccurate.
And so people don't have anunderstanding of what a boundary
is.
I didn't.
I I finally admitted it to mytherapist at one point.
(44:15):
Like, she kept talking abouttheir boundaries, and I'm like,
okay, so I don't actuallyunderstand what boundaries are.
Can you tell me what you'retalking about, please?
So would you mind sharing likewhat you share with people?
SPEAKER_01 (44:25):
So the two things I talk about is internal and
external boundaries, right?
Internal boundaries are where Iend and you begin.
So let's say my husband comes upand he starts yelling at me
because I forgot to turn off thelight.
Well, I have to look at myself.
Did I create that problem?
Did I contribute to his anger?
And the answer is no.
I didn't have to make him angry.
Did I forget to turn out thelight?
Probably, but he chose theanger.
(44:46):
So I don't have to respond tothat.
I can say, oh, I'm sorry Ididn't turn out the light, but I
don't have to react to his angerbecause I didn't create it.
Does that make sense?
That's an internal boundary.
I end here, you begin there.
And if I didn't step into yourbeginning, that's not mine.
But x external boundaries arethis is mine.
(45:06):
This is what I'm going to do.
A rule is what I expect fromsomeone else.
And most people think boundariesare rules.
You cannot speak to me that way.
That's that's a rule.
And I have no power over anybodyelse.
I only have power over J.
My boundary is that if I'mspoken to disrespectfully, I
will leave the situation.
(45:27):
And two things I don't tolerate.
I don't tolerate dishonestdishonesty, I don't tolerate
disrespect.
I'm very my boundaries are verytight around this, right?
So if it's someone I care about,I'll say, I would love to have
that conversation with you whenthe tone is more respect.
Until then we're going todisengage from I will disengage
from this conversation.
If it's someone I don't have agood relationship with, I don't
(45:49):
know, I just leave thesituation.
My boundary is I won't be in aconversation with disrespect.
I can't tell you not todisrespect me.
I can't walk with a sign on mychest saying don't disrespect
me.
But I if I feel disrespected, Ican handle it myself.
So a boundary is personal to me.
It's not a rule for someone.
(46:10):
And I teach people that all thetime, and then we start
practicing simple boundaries,right?
Not all boundaries have to beshared, which is unheard of for
most people.
Well, I have to tell them howI'm going to do it.
Actually, you don't now get apartnership, a marriage, that
type of relationship, some of myboundaries will be shared with
my spouse.
(46:31):
But not everything.
Not all boundaries becausethey're so personal to me.
I don't have to tell everybodymy boundaries.
And that's where people getcaught because they think it's a
rule, and I have to share therules.
You're right.
Rules have to be spoken, but youcan't force them.
Boundaries are yours.
They're nobody else's.
They're mine.
Mind is set, mind to hold, mindto be consistent.
SPEAKER_00 (46:54):
Yeah, and personal accountability, you know, it's
that's one of the things I, youknow, I was I'm always talking
about like this is yourresponsibility, this is his
responsibility.
You have to stop trying to likefix each other and stop trying
to get into each other'sbusiness because it's not going
to help, first of all.
You cannot fix another person.
And and it can createresentment, it can create, you
know, it it creates distrust.
(47:16):
There's all these issues thatare created when we try to get
into, you know, like cross intoeach other's territory and start
trying to fix the other personand change the other person.
And that's one thing that I seeall the time.
And I wanted to ask you, I justout of curiosity, do you have
people that will come to you formarriage counseling, for
example?
And as you're working with them,recognize we probably should do
(47:37):
some individual work.
Like, does that happen often andvice versa?
Like when you've got somebodythat's coming into you for
individual therapy, do you eversuggest, like, I think it would
be a good idea if you, you know,your you and your spouse came in
for couples counseling?
Like, is that something that youguys do in your clinic?
SPEAKER_01 (47:51):
All the time.
unknown (47:52):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (47:53):
And then they'll say, Well, will you see us for
individual and for couples?
And I said, It will depend.
Because I don't mind doing that.
Some therapists absolutelycannot separate you.
I can't.
But it will depend.
It'll depend on my schedule.
It'll depend on your schedule,it'll depend on the need, right?
It it depends.
But yes, all the time peoplecome in an individual and they
really need relationship work,and then they'll come in for
(48:14):
relationship work and they'vegot their own childhood cultures
and traumas that have come inthat they have to kill for the
relationship to work.
So it just depends.
But yes, we do that all thetime.
SPEAKER_00 (48:25):
Yeah.
Okay.
And then my last question foryou.
Well, I've got two questions.
I'm going to give you a heads upon the final question.
So the final question is alwayslike, what's your one one, you
know, parting piece of advicethat you would like to somebody
to take away?
But before I ask you that, soI'm going to give you a second
to kind of think about that.
But um, what would you recommendto somebody who has had bad
(48:47):
experiences, say, you know, likeI did with therapy, that is like
listening to this and thinking,oh, maybe, maybe I could try it
again.
What would you recommend tothem?
Like, how would you recommendthey approach looking for a good
practitioner?
You know, do you have resourcesyou could recommend or do you
have any ideas for them for howthey can research modalities?
Because I think that's one ofthe things that people struggle
with is they don't understandany of these treatment
(49:09):
modalities.
And so that creates a barrierfor them, you know, knowing what
to look for in a therapist.
SPEAKER_01 (49:14):
I do think that's really important.
I have to step in that world alittle bit because I know
treatment modalities.
I know where to research and howto look, right?
But I do I do recommend a lot ofpeople when they call, they say
I have trauma experiences.
Okay, have you looked into ARTor have you looked into CMI or
have you looked?
So we say that a lot on ourintakes because that helps us
assign a therapist too.
(49:36):
But just start looking bestpractice for trauma.
Like ART is recognized by theVeterans Administration as best
practice, by Department ofDefense, and by non best
practice for PTSD, right?
Best practice for PTSD andtreatment resistant pressure,
which we also have at ourclinic.
We have academy the on-staffdoctor, right?
(49:58):
So finding out what do I thinkI'm struggling with and what
helps, and just go on AI,there's great things about it,
horrible things about it.
They are not a therapist, eventhough that's a number of the
reason people use AI.
But you can ask what is the bestpractice for being a victim of
sexual assault?
Ask them, they'll tell you whereto look and how to look.
(50:21):
Don't use them as a therapist,so they are not a good
therapist.
SPEAKER_00 (50:26):
Awesome.
And then what what is the onething that you hope somebody
will take away from ourconversation?
What's the the number one thingthat you're hoping somebody will
take away?
SPEAKER_01 (50:36):
No matter what you've been told, no matter how
you feel, you are not broken.
And there is you can heal.
You can heal.
And I think that's mostimportant.
I don't see anybody as broken.
And they come in and tell methey are all the time, and
they're not.
They're not.
They've had some hardexperiences.
SPEAKER_00 (50:56):
They're not that's fantastic.
All right, where can people findyou if they want to connect with
you?
SPEAKER_01 (51:02):
Oh, um, our website www.healthierucc.com.
I have to think about that.
Or they can just call it.
It's 801-701-0348.
SPEAKER_00 (51:13):
Wonderful.
I'll make sure all of your linksare in the show notes so people
can find you there.
Thank you so much.
This has been a fantasticconversation.
I'm actually super curious nowto look into these things, these
modalities more becauseespecially this, the the CMI.
Like I just had never, when Iwas re reading through your bio,
I'm like, what is that?
And I was like typing it in,looking it up.
(51:33):
And so I'm very excited to learnmore about these things.
And thank you so much forsharing what you have and for
everything you're doing.
It's it's just really inspiring.
Thank you.
Thanks.
Thanks for having me on.
It's been fun.
Absolutely.
All right, until next time,upsiders.
(51:56):
Thanks for joining me on theUpside of Bipolar.
Your journey to recoverymatters, and I'm grateful you're
here.
For more resources, visitwww.theupsideofbipolar.com.
If you're ready to dive deeper,grab my book, The Upside of
Bipolar (52:10):
Seven Steps to Heal Your Disorder.
If you're ready to heal yoursymptoms, join my monthly
membership, The Upsiders Tribe,to transform chaos into hope.
Until next time, Upsiders.
You are not broken.
No matter what you've been told,no matter how you feel, you are
not broken.
And there is you can kill.
You can kill.
SPEAKER_00 (00:15):
Welcome to the Upside of Bipolar, where we
uncover the true sources ofbipolar symptoms and share
proven tools for recovery.
I'm your host, MichelleReitinger, number one
international best-sellingauthor of the Upside of Bipolar
Seven Steps to Heal YourDisorder.
In this podcast, I bring yousolo insights from my journey
and guest interviews withleading researchers and experts.
(00:36):
Join us to transform chaos intohope and reclaim your life.
Let's heal together.
Welcome to the Upside ofBipolar.
I am your host, MichelleReitinger, and I have a
fantastic guest today.
I'm so excited to introduceJanie Nelson to you.
Janie is the owner and clinicaldirector of Healthier U
(00:58):
Counseling Center and has been atherapist for about 20 years.
In 2024, she trained in criticalmemory integration, CMI, and is
on the CMI training leadershipteam.
Janie was one of the firstaccelerated resolution therapy
practitioners in Utah, beingtrained in 2017 and master
trained in 2019.
(01:19):
One of her passions is helpingothers discover their best
selves.
She does this by creatinghealthy relationships with
clients in individual marriage,family, and group therapy.
Janie helps facilitateempowerment retreats for women
and couples.
Due to marriage and family beingso important to her, she runs
Gottman and Layers of LoveRelationship Groups.
Additionally, Janie facilitatesother groups as need arises.
(01:40):
One of the things she is workingon for the CMI team is
developing CMI for groups.
Her greatest belief is that itis important to love everyone,
no matter the circumstances.
She shows love by practicingkindness, which she believes is
honest, assertive, respectful,and loving.
It is this belief that helpsJanie connect with her clients
and develop bonds of trust thatallow them to grow.
(02:01):
To add to Janie's professionalexperience, she is a wife,
mother, grandmother, and greatgrandmother.
She has was a foster parent formore than 22 years.
And during that time, she wasawarded Utah's Child Advocate of
the Year.
Janie loves to cook, enjoysnature, quilting, jewelry
making, stained glass, her newhobby, and a man and many other
hobbies.
(02:21):
She finds peace as she creates.
Janie practices mindfulnessdaily in each of these
activities, and they keep hergrounded and in touch with
herself.
Welcome, Jamie.
I'm so excited for thisconversation today.
SPEAKER_01 (02:33):
That's kind of fun.
That's fun to hear thatintroduction again.
I haven't read it for a minute.
SPEAKER_00 (02:38):
Yeah, it's it's you're very well rounded, and
I'm super excited to dig intowhat you do.
So thank you so much for comingon today.
So we always start with yourstory.
So will you please share yourstory with our audience?
SPEAKER_01 (02:50):
Sure.
My story goes back many years.
I was five when I knew my jobwas to help others.
But uh five, you don't know whatthat means, right?
And so I always try to dothings.
I was the friend that would showup and help with that.
I helped my siblings a lot.
I worked with my mom and dad,worked in my dad's office for a
long time, but I don't know whathelp bothers me.
So when I was young, got marriedat 18, started raising kids.
(03:12):
My husband said, You can't workoutside the home.
I said, Okay, so I became afoster parent and I took the
structured kids, the kids whowere one step away from being in
residence.
I did that for quite a fewyears.
Well, I was about 40.
My own children were struggling.
My youngest and I was talking toGod one day and he said, Go to
school, and I said no.
And he said, Go to school, and Isaid no.
And he said, Go to school, and Isaid, Okay.
(03:35):
And I went to college and I didzero college to my master's in
six years exactly.
And during that time I hadcancer twice, but I still
completed it in six years andjust started doing the therapy
thing.
Well, I get a little bit olderand I've worked with
residential.
I worked with my best friend fora while, and I was talking to
God and he said, open apractice.
I was almost 60.
I'm thinking, why am I gonnaopen a practice?
(03:56):
So I said no, and he said, opena practice, and I said no, and
he said, open a practice, and Isaid, Okay, which is how
healthier you came about.
So that's that's kind of thestory that has gotten me to this
point.
And that's been Healthier Youhas been a journey in and of
itself, a beautiful journey, onethat I love and I'm grateful to
be part of.
SPEAKER_00 (04:13):
Yeah, I I was so impressed when I looked at your
clinic.
I was looking at the websiteonline, and you have some
incredible practitioners there.
And there's such a diversity ofmodalities, too, that I haven't
seen.
I'm sure that I'm I'm not sayingthat there aren't other clinics
out there, but I've never seen aclinic with the breadth of
modality experience that youhave with your practitioners.
(04:34):
And one, I I want to talk to youabout the two that you
specialize in.
So the ART, acceleratedresolution therapy.
We have had one practitioner onbefore, but I'd like to hear
your introduction to what ART isand how it facilitates healing.
And then I want to explore thecritical memory integration
because I have never had apractitioner on that does that.
And you've got not justyourself, but you've got others
(04:55):
in your clinic that practicethat as well.
SPEAKER_01 (04:57):
So our clinic is trauma proficient.
So a lot of clinics aretrauma-informed, right?
But we are all of us are in bestpractices of trauma.
So back in 2017, I cook for funand I was asked to cook at a
retreat with veterans.
And so I'm just in the kitchendoing my thing, and they all,
where do men hang out?
In the kitchen with the food.
And every one of them talked tome about how ART had changed
(05:20):
their life.
So I went home to my best friendand I said, Okay, we're going
to, I'm gonna go learn thisskill.
She said, Okay, and we went andwe were trained in ART.
And and what it is for me, atrauma is not what happens to
you.
Trauma is how you think and feelabout it.
So ART, when you get trained init, what you find is that we're
(05:41):
reducing the emotions andsensations around the trauma.
Well, trauma is now just a fact.
It's nothing more than a fact.
Um, this happened to me at thistime.
ART is so powerful, we don't useit before court case.
So if a victim goes in and theyjust say, This happened to me,
it's a fact and there's noemotion, juries don't believe
them.
Right.
So we can't remove the emotionright before a court case.
(06:03):
But some of the most powerfulexperiences is helping someone I
work a lot with police and fire,watching them walk out of here
with a trauma they've carriedfor years and now it's not a big
deal.
We're talking 45 minutes to anhour and 15 minutes.
SPEAKER_00 (06:16):
That's it.
So how does that how does thatmodality work?
Can you can you explain?
So like I don't know if there'sa way to explain it simply.
SPEAKER_01 (06:23):
A lot of bilateral stimulation, and we take you out
of the prefrontal cortex and putyou back into your amygdala,
right, which is where we holdour emotions or hormonal
regulation.
We take you out of the logicbrain.
We try and logic awayeverything.
And as as you use a bilateralstimulation, it's very scripted,
and the clients don't have totell me what they're working on.
(06:44):
So a lot of times people don'twant to talk because they don't
want secondary trauma, theydon't want great trauma in the
therapist.
So I say, give me one sentenceof what you're working on.
It might be a car accident Isaw.
Great, that's all I need toknow.
I don't need to know more.
And they don't have to shareanything throughout.
So it's bilateral stimulation,and then we do we erase and we
(07:04):
erase the sensations andemotions and replace them with
positive.
We positise things that arenegative in their life.
And they get it.
SPEAKER_00 (07:12):
That's incredible.
SPEAKER_01 (07:12):
They get to do it.
Yeah.
So fascinating to watch.
I just say, let's do this, andtheir brain will go there.
It just goes there.
SPEAKER_00 (07:20):
So I know that bilateral stimulation is similar
to what is used in EMDR.
So can you talk about what thedifference is between those two
modalities?
SPEAKER_01 (07:29):
Um, I am not an EMDR therapist, so that's going to be
hard for me to tell you thedifference from what my
training, but I can tell youwhat I've been told.
I've been told with EMDR, and Ihave seen this because my best
friend is an EMDR therapist, isEMDR you can process for hours,
days, months, years afterwards.
You have a session and youprocess afterwards.
What my clients have told me,what the therapists I've had
(07:51):
that have been trained in both,have told me is ART is EMDR on
steroids.
It's faster, it's quicker, it'sless traumatizing to the client,
it's less traumatizing to thetherapist.
So when you walk out of myoffice after an ART session,
that issue is gone.
It is resolved.
Done.
Can I share an experience ofthat?
Yeah, I'd love, I'd love to hearthat.
Yeah.
The first officer I did it on,who had his body cam on the
(08:13):
whole time and I didn't realizeit, right?
His first officer, he was anofficer for 20-something years,
but his first officer-involvedshooting was in Orm.
And he was every time he drovedown the street, he got nauseous
and ready to throw that memoryof that officer involved
shooting.
So I did an ART session on thatfor him.
He came in the next time hesaid, What did you do to me?
And I said, What do you mean?
(08:34):
What did I do to you?
And he said, I was on thatstreet and I didn't even realize
no more nausea, no more anxietydriving down the same street one
session.
SPEAKER_00 (08:41):
That's incredible.
I wish that I'd I wish I'd knownthat before I'd done the EMDR.
And I don't want to bag EMDR.
It it was a huge blessing forme, but yeah, it was like it was
like a month and a half of likeserious trauma because I was
reprocessing everything and Iwas it felt like I was back in
the experience for a month and ahalf.
It was a very distressingexperience.
SPEAKER_01 (09:01):
So because EMDR focuses on a emotion, we focus
on the whole thing from start tofinish.
And we actually at the very endof ART, we have them visualize
their future.
What does your future look likewith this gone?
Right?
And and that's powerful.
It's like, wait, I can enjoy mykids now.
I can drive down a street Icouldn't drive down before.
(09:22):
I don't have to drink as much.
Yeah.
Like we get all kinds of thingsthat are just just beautiful.
It's beautiful.
SPEAKER_00 (09:28):
Yeah, that's incredible.
So I want to shift to criticalmemory integration because I've
never had anybody, I don't Iwill be honest, I've read about
it, but I don't reallyunderstand it.
So I would love for you toexplain what critical memory
integration is and how it isused in your practice.
SPEAKER_01 (09:43):
Okay.
So we talk about trauma and ART.
So here's the trauma experience.
Why can one person be have a seea the same car accident as
someone else and this one'straumatized and this one isn't?
Does that make sense?
We're asking all the time.
How come many people can gothrough the same trauma and it
affects some people in one wayand some people in another?
(10:03):
So critical memory criticalmemory integration actually to
me is why that affects you.
So trauma, this experiencehappened.
Why am I reacting to it?
And usually it's a childhoodwound somewhere that we have to
look at.
An experience in childhood morethan this trauma.
So critical memory integrationgets to our core selves.
And it can be fast.
(10:27):
And we we let them explore, weget curious about the emotion
and the sensation in your body.
And what I do with my clients isI say, let's let's just get
curious.
You're feeling a lot of anxietyin your chest, let that grow.
Let's get curious about thatanxiety.
Let's see what it looks like.
Give it a color, give it asound, give it a taste if you
need to, and we let it grow andgrow and grow and get bigger,
(10:49):
and then we look inside, right?
And look inside at what'sinside.
Usually it's them as children.
I'll give you a good example ofthat one, and then I'll tell you
how we work with it.
I had a firefighter in here andhe was pissed.
He was so angry because he hadto go do training on how to
clear a room that's in a fire,especially with funk beds.
I said, help me understand that.
Tears in his eyes.
He said, Because if someonewould have done it right, I
(11:10):
wouldn't have had to find thefour-year-old.
And I said, Okay, so I startedsome ART, and I these two work
really well in correlation.
And he had this emotion and itkept getting bigger and bigger.
And I changed his CMI and Isaid, Okay, let's get inside
that anger.
As we got inside, he was alittle four-year-old sitting on
a bunch of bed and no one cameto him when he was sad.
And no one helped him.
(11:32):
So I said, Let's set with thatfour-year-old.
As an adult, older, wiserfirefighter, set with the
four-year-old little guy whowanted help and listened to what
he has to say to you.
And he said, The little boytalked to him, he was a little
younger self talked to him.
And his older, wiser selfreassured his younger self.
And through it all, through itall, his little guy quit crying.
(11:53):
He said, Someone does care abouthim.
SPEAKER_02 (11:56):
And the anger dissipated was gone.
SPEAKER_01 (11:59):
So he's angry about having to teach how to clear a
room because his littlefour-year-old self was never
held or held or nurtured.
And when he could do that, butnow it's okay.
So that's incredible.
Critical memory integration, itgoes to your core self, the core
wounds that make us respond tothings the way we do.
And it's not it's just it's abeautiful process.
SPEAKER_02 (12:23):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (12:24):
And it's and I I think when I I love I love
listening to descriptions ofthese types of modalities
because one of the big problemswe have in our society is we've
pathologized symptoms.
We have created pathology aroundanxiety, around depression,
around, you know, even mania,and and it ends curiosity into
the source.
We stopped looking for the wethought stop looking for the
(12:45):
source because we believe we'vebeen given an answer.
When we're given a diagnosis,bipolar diagnosis, uh, you know,
obviously is the focus of thispodcast, but people stop looking
for answers.
And I stopped looking foranswers.
I spent, you know, 12 years inpsychiatric treatment on drugs
and in and out of hospitals, andtherapy was totally useless
because I was doing talktherapy.
And when you stay in the upperpart of your brain, you don't
(13:06):
actually ever get to the, youknow, I can be super logical.
And I was an expert on all theissues that I had, but I
couldn't fix them.
I couldn't resolve them.
And when we start looking, Ilove what you said, looking with
curiosity.
When we are taught topathologize these symptoms like
anxiety or anger or, you know,you know, depression, there is
no curiosity, there's judgment.
(13:27):
We're judging the emotions andsaying that they're bad and we
want to suppress them with drugsor, you know, get them to go
away.
They're a disorder, our brain issomething's wrong with our
brain.
But when we look with curiosityinto it, why is our brain
reacting that way?
What is what is the source?
What's actually causing thebrain to react this way?
And I love what you're sayingabout sitting with it and
allowing it to grow so that youcan get inside of it and find
(13:49):
out like, where did this comefrom in the first place?
And then you can give the personwhat they actually need to, you
know, and integrate, you know,integrate that back in so that
they're so they're not gettingtriggered.
You know, one of the things Iwant to ask you a little bit
about this in your experience,it took a long time for me to
unwind all of the differentsymptoms I experienced because
because everything got lumpedinto buckets, so anxiety was all
(14:11):
lumped into one bucket anddepression was all lumped into
one bucket, you know, and so ittook years for me to parse out
symptoms and start seeing themas in, you know, as separate,
you know, the the issues thatthey were and the separate
sources that they had, you know.
So I started recognizing not allof my anxiety acts the same.
No, you know, some of theanxiety is like my body is not
getting the nutrition it needs,and I'm it, you know, things are
(14:34):
not behaving, my brain does notbehaving the way that it should.
Some of it is like traumaresponses to things.
You know, I have a situationhappen and I don't feel safe,
and my brain goes into fight orflight, and I my body starts to
my chest gets tight, I can'tbreathe.
And so then, you know, whatyou're talking about is taking
that further and looking insideof it and saying, What why do I
feel unsafe in this situation?
(14:55):
What it is about this situationthat makes my brain feel why
can't you breathe?
SPEAKER_01 (14:59):
Let's get curious about that.
Yeah.
Right.
And so then we get curious aboutthat, and it takes you back to
an instant where you didn't feelsafe.
The first time your chest wastight and you nurture that
little girl.
You, as an older, wiser self,can can heal your little girl
whose chest was tight and didn'tfeel safe.
But we don't know that we can dothat.
So, one of the things we do is Iteach my clients to do that all
(15:21):
the time.
After we do a CMI session, I'llsay you can do this at home.
You can visit your little girlas often as you want to visit
her.
Anytime you feel a sensation,let's just just get curious
about it.
Ask her about it.
And that little girl can be evenpre-birth, was my little girl.
Wow.
My little girl was still inwhatever the world.
I think it's a pre-existencebefore we came to this earth.
(15:44):
I was conceived out of rape.
I didn't want to come.
I didn't want to be on thisearth.
And I never felt like Ibelonged.
And my CMI session took me backand helped me learn to belong.
And that was two years ago.
Two years ago, I finally feltlike I belonged on this earth
because I was able to heal whatI call my zygo.
I gave her permission to behere.
That's incredible.
(16:05):
It was it was just an amazingexperience.
SPEAKER_00 (16:08):
Yeah.
One thing that I'm curious aboutis what is you said that in your
bio it says that you are workingwith the CMI team to develop
this for groups.
What does that look like?
SPEAKER_01 (16:17):
So I run retreats.
So that's in my bio too, right?
And I I love this concept ofCMI.
I love it.
I love the practice, I love thespirituality of it.
It's such a spiritual piece tome to be able to explore that
with clients.
Well, I because I ran groups,run groups, and because I run
retreats, I used it at one ofthe retreats right after I was
(16:40):
trained because we do tryretreats usually March and
September.
I was trained in February, wentto a retreat in March and I had
12 women there.
And we were working on I have toremember what that topic of that
retreat was because we changedthe topic every time.
Oh, we were working on becomingconnected to ourselves, walking
with ourselves, right?
So I just asked a question ofthe group.
(17:02):
I said, We're gonna go into thisthing.
Here's what I want you to thinkabout.
And we always I always invitethem to close their eyes and put
their hands on their chest,right?
Because this app actually givesyour body the physiological
response of a hug.
So you're nurturing yourself,you're hugging yourself.
And I asked the group to focuson when they learned when they
first realized they couldn'twalk.
(17:23):
Right.
And it was a little bit morecomplicated than that, a lot
more detail.
And all 12 women participatedexcept for one who said it was
too hard, she walked out, whichis fine too.
It's okay.
And we had different emotions.
Some people were sobbing, somepeople were upset, some people
were not.
It was it was beautiful, andthen they came back and shared.
(17:44):
Well, we want to do that moreoften, you know.
Can you imagine that in a groupof veterans?
Can you imagine that in a groupof women who've just been with a
part of it?
Yeah.
Right?
All of those things.
And so my goal is to help thatwe can, you know, um, help more
people in a smaller instead ofan hour, an hour, an hour.
(18:06):
And CMI can take anywhere from10 minutes to an hour.
It really doesn't have a timelimit on it.
Can you imagine having 10-15people at one time in that hour
instead of one person and thehealing process that comes with
it?
And I've run it in three groups,three retreats I read.
And the outcome is beautiful.
It's just beautiful.
(18:26):
Usually in groups, we let themjournal afterwards.
Just journal about yourexperience and then share a few
more.
I remember one girl said that onthe very first one she was 17,
pregnant, wasn't tellinganything.
And it was the first time sheallowed that 17-year-old to
grieve what her life is.
Isn't that CMI session?
That could be CMI session.
SPEAKER_02 (18:45):
That's incredible.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (18:48):
I can't imagine.
I I can.
I actually think that it'sreally incredible because with
my coaching group, you know,there is so much power in the
feeling like somebody elseunderstands what you're going
through.
And, you know, it's I I canimagine, especially with like
especially the application withveterans, you know, where
there's other people because alot of times I've, you know,
(19:08):
when I do speak with veterans, Iactually had a you know,
somebody on my podcast a coupleweeks ago that was she's a
veteran and ended up in thepsychiatric system and just
totally traumatized bypsychiatric drugs and that.
And nobody asked her.
Like the things, if you thinkabout what she went through, you
know, she was in the firstdeployment for the, you know,
for the Iraq war.
(19:29):
There were so many people thatwere suffering and nobody
understood what they were goingthrough, and they just started
labeling it with psychiatricdisorders and drugging them up.
Yeah.
And and we wonder why we have somany veterans who are who are
giving up, you know, and and tobe able to help them in a in a
setting where they feel likethey're not the only one.
It's not the only you know,they're not the only person
going through this is reallyincredible.
I can't, you know, that would bean incredibly powerful approach.
SPEAKER_01 (19:53):
Then that's why I like group work.
So many people feel they'realone.
And they're not.
I'm running a Gottman groupright now with six couples and
they're married four months tothirty years.
And the their experience theyshare and they realize they're
not alone, and they realize thatothers understand.
Well, I love that with with ourI train, do mental health
(20:14):
training in our policedepartments, right?
And and to do some of that andhelp them understand and be able
to have a safe place to talkabout those experiences and to
learn how to deal with it.
Group work is powerful.
Powerful because you're notalone.
And it it's the first time manypeople feel like others
understand.
So then doing CMI in groupswhere you're having the same
experience, that's completelydifferent, but the same.
(20:37):
Because it's individual to you,but these other people
understand the experiencebecause they're having it.
SPEAKER_00 (20:42):
Yeah, and I one of the things that I love about
this too, a lot of my initialexperience, so the first at
least 12 years, maybe 15 yearsof my experience with therapy,
group therapy, and that wasterrible.
Yeah.
And I hated it.
I I didn't, and a lot of it hadto do with feeling like we were
just all w wallowing in ourmisery together.
There was no, there was no,there was nothing offered that
(21:05):
made me feel hope or made mefeel like we were going to get
out of what we were goingthrough.
I felt like we were all justbeing victims together.
And there was uh one experiencethat I had where I was in an I
had been hospitalized and wasreleased into an outpatient
program.
And I went one day and I refusedto go back.
I'm like, that's making meworse.
I'm not gonna do that againbecause I felt like I felt more
(21:27):
depressed after the groupsession than I did before I went
into it.
And I realized that it's thesame, it was the same issue that
I was having with therapy, whichwas talk therapy was staying in
the upper part of my brain.
And I was not able to access thelower part of my brain where all
of the trauma and the anxietyresponses and the you know,
depressive responses, all ofthose emotional responses to the
(21:48):
trauma existed.
And I would just talk about theproblems, which made them
bigger.
It made them feel worse.
It made me feel like I and Ikept quitting therapy because
I'm like, that just makes mefeel worse and I can do that for
free with a friend.
Like I don't need to paysomebody for that.
And so it took a long time forme to understand that therapy
could actually help because Ididn't and I didn't know
(22:09):
anything about modalities.
And the things that you'retalking about are so they feel
revolutionary to me, honestly,because I'm I I don't think I
feel like there are is a and Idon't know if it's I I don't
know if it really is justhappening in the last like 15
years, maybe, that all of asudden there's like all of these
different therapy modalitiesthat are are helping us to get
(22:30):
to the source of trauma andactually resolve the sources of
trauma and helping peopleactually heal.
Whereas in the past, it was justtalking about our problems.
And I think that there's valuein things like cognitive
behavioral therapy anddialectical behavioral therapy
and that.
But if you are not treating thesource, I think that you can
stay on the surface with those,with those treatment approaches
because you're not, it's thesame kind of thing.
(22:52):
We're staying in the upper partof our brains with those often
and not able to actually accessand resolve the underlying
sources.
So I feel like there's likelayers of treatment that need to
happen where you get first, weresolve all these really tough
issues.
And I'm excited about the ARTand the CMI, you know, as
additional therapy modalitiesfor people to look into.
(23:12):
And then you can start workingon the thought patterns that
were created when we, you know,because of the trauma, right?
SPEAKER_01 (23:18):
Yeah.
And that that's exactly right.
I dbt, CBT, we use them, right?
I'm I'm trained and we use them,but we use them logically.
We don't use them emotionally.
Right.
And they're just symptoms.
All those are doing is dealingwith the symptoms.
If I want to heal the wholeperson, I don't want to deal
with symptoms all the time.
And I'm a talk therapist, I cantalk with the best of them if
(23:41):
that's what we need.
Right?
But I can and I can teach skillswith the best of them, but I
can't go home with that.
I can't make them practice that.
And so much of that is practicedoutside of the therapy office,
that's not what we're doinginside.
Right.
Well, ART and CBT and CMI iswhat we're doing inside the
office.
And they don't have to practiceoutside because we've filled the
(24:03):
wound.
And you still can do CBT, youcan still do DBT, you can still
do ACT, you can still do all ofit, and they're great skills,
but they're treating symptoms.
They're not treating them.
SPEAKER_00 (24:13):
Yeah.
And one of the things that Irecently started like
understanding better is for me,for example, when when you have
wounding, especially if you havewounding in your childhood, our
brain tries to cope with it.
It try, it comes up with ways ofcoping.
And some people have veryobvious coping mechanisms, you
know, like drugs and alcohol,right?
But there are things that arenot as obvious, you know,
(24:33):
negative thought and behaviorpatterns that that are internal
that people don't see that theperson is suffering and that
that's how their brain haslearned to cope.
We have so many people who are,you know, I had a practitioner
on recently that works withpeople who dissociate, you know,
and he was talking about howmost of us dissociate in some
form or another.
You know, it's not, it's not tothe extreme that somebody ends
up with like a diagnosis ofdissociated identity disorder,
(24:55):
but but when we're likescrolling, you know, they call
it doom scrolling or, you know,getting lost in binge watching
shows and things like that wasone of my coping mechanisms for
years, you know, and the thoughtand behavior patterns that
develop out of these things, alot of times you can resolve the
underlying issue.
So, you know, we I talked I talka lot about, you know,
identifying the source.
Let's identify what's the actualsource of the trauma, what's
(25:18):
what's going on here.
Identify that, resolve it.
But then you have to like createnew habits.
You know, you have to likechange the way your brain thinks
now because you've spent, youknow, 40 years thinking this way
about yourself because of thison you know, the trauma.
And now the trauma's gone, butyou have this habit that you've
created.
So there's like, that's one ofthe things I want to talk a
little bit more about how youryour clinic evolved.
(25:38):
Because one of the things I wastalking with, I'm blanking on
her name, but she's uh one ofyour one of your, she does,
she's a coach there.
Mo, yes.
So I was talking to her, and oneof the things we were talking
about, she's, you know, she's alife coach that works in your
practice.
And she said she might beworking with somebody and they
discover that there's somethings that need to be resolved.
So then she can refer them topractitioners in your practice.
(26:00):
And I'm like, that is brilliant,because a lot of times people
don't understand.
Like I said, you know, wepathologize these issues, you
know, and so people think theyhave a disorder and they don't
think that there's anything theycan do about it.
So they're working, they'retaking medication and they're
working with a life coach, butnothing's working because
they're working on the surfacewith all of this stuff.
And I love with your practice,and I'd love to hear a little
(26:21):
bit more.
Like I said, I'll stop talkingin just a second, but but how
you developed your practice andyou know what what the
philosophy is there, because youhave so many different pieces
that are offered in yourpractice, you know, family
therapy, individual therapy,marriage counseling, you know,
life coach that all can worktogether if you've got
practitioners that understandhow to start like getting to the
(26:43):
sources of issues and how do wehow do we create a plan that's
going to help somebody not justsolve their own issues, but then
start working on the system, youknow, the family system that has
now been harmed by somebodystruggling with their mental
health.
So can you talk about yourpractice and how you evolved
into the practice that you havenow?
SPEAKER_01 (27:01):
Well, again, it's such a God thing for me.
There is no coincidence in mypractice.
Nuts.
I can't tell you how many timesthere's been someone in crisis
and I had a cancellation right.
I can't, but my biggest thing,and I'll tell you, my biggest
thing is I want everybody whowalks through my door to feel a
sense of safety and peace thatthey can't feel anywhere else.
And a good an example of that,it was really kind of funny, is
(27:22):
when someone calls in and we askthem how they heard heard about
us.
You know, that's just part ofour intake.
And um, I get DoorDash deliveredkind of regularly because I
don't have time to do anythingelse.
This girl said, I I deliveredthe DoorDash three months ago,
and I thought if I ever neededtherapy, I wanted to come to
somewhere that made me feel likeyou're practicing it.
So that is my number one goal.
(27:43):
When you walk through my door, Iwant you to feel a sense of
safety and peace.
And if my practitioners can'tcontribute to that, they can't
be part of us.
So I'm very, you know, veryprayerful about who I hire.
I just have a brand new studentwho just graduated from school,
and I said to Mo last year, I'mnot taking any more students,
I'm done.
I don't want to intern anymore.
(28:03):
And then I got this resume, andGod said you're supposed to work
with them.
I'm like, okay, whatever.
So it's such a God journey forme.
Okay.
When we open, I just went aroundto different businesses by us
and said, Hey, we're here justletting you know.
Can I walk into the policedepartment in Linden, Utah,
which is a very small policestore?
Can I talk to the chief and Isaid, Hey, we're here, and he
(28:24):
said, I believe in therapy.
And I believe all our firstresponders need therapy, and my
guys will start coming to seeyou.
Right after that happened,George Floyd in Minnesota
happened, right?
And I had someone approach mewho said, My friend and I were
talking about it, but we decidedinstead of talking about George
Floyd, we should be about it.
And I know you work with firstresponders.
(28:45):
Can we start a nonprofit?
I said, You know, we talkedabout the dream, and the dream
was that all first responders inthe state of Utah could receive
therapy.
So I started a nonprofit and itwas beautiful.
We helped train over 200therapists in Utah and ART.
Um, and we got contracted withall these um departments
throughout the state of Utah.
Well, nonprofit was sosuccessful that we couldn't fund
(29:08):
it anymore.
We were spending sixty thousanddollars a month in the state of
Utah for first respondertherapy.
Our funders just ran out ofmoney, right?
So that kind of started ourjourney.
In that journey, I realized thatthey needed more.
They did more.
I was already trained in ART,but they needed more.
(29:29):
And so I still work with a lotof first responders, but I
needed someone needs IFS, theyneed parts for it.
I'm not an IFS therapist, butHarmony is.
And she's also trained in ARTand CMO.
So all of my therapists have tobe trained in ART and CMO.
That is required.
I don't like to do addictionwork.
Now we get it all the time, butSpencer, my new student who just
(29:50):
graduated, is very good inaddiction work.
So so I want to be able to healand not just treat, heal the
majority.
I don't want to be able to justtalk to the majority.
And so as they start learningthings, we have a women's visual
art group.
(30:10):
We have an art studio becausesome people can't talk about it.
There's a sign back there thatsays I can say things in color
and shape that words will neverexpress.
Right?
So we do it's just whatever theneed is.
I run a boundaries group becausesomeone said, I don't understand
them.
How do we do boundaries?
Okay, let's run boundaries.
(30:31):
Right?
So we run a group, but mypractitioners all have to be
trained in best practices, andthen they can branch out from
there in what is best practiceto them.
IFS is great.
It's great.
I think it's beautiful.
I think it's beautiful.
But that's not where I go.
And I want them to have theirown personalities and their own
explore their own journeys andfind out what works for them
(30:53):
after you train an ART in CMI.
I have a practitioner right nowwho is of active duty military,
he's my age, active dutymilitary, getting ready to
resign to retire, who's been allover the world doing therapy for
veterans.
And now he's he's worked for theDepartment of Public Health,
which I didn't know was amilitary department, it is,
(31:15):
doing it helping veterans getoccupational therapy and
physical therapy and thoseresources, and then he does
therapy.
Well, my other veteran who's wasa a captain in Iraq, colonel in
Iraq, doesn't want to talk to meabout that experience, it'll
talk to him.
So we have to have thatdiversity and that breadth of
modalities so the needs can getmet.
SPEAKER_00 (31:38):
Yeah, I was in, I was I was starting to go through
and try and make a list.
I was going through all of theirbios in there, and I you have
IFS, CBT, DBT, mindfulness-basedstress reduction, acceptance,
you know, AI acceptance andcommitment therapy, which is
ACT, EMDR.
I, you know, so I was just like,this is incredible.
All of these modalities in onein one clinic is really
(32:00):
impressive.
And I said, I think I told youbefore we started recording
there.
I'm not saying that there aren'tother clinics out there like
this, but this is the first oneI found.
And I've done a lot of researchbecause not just for myself, but
for, you know, I've got peopleasking me all the time, like,
well, you know, where where canI get good therapy?
And I I want to have goodpractitioners that I can refer
(32:20):
people to.
And this is like seriously oneof the most impressive clinics
that I've seen.
And I'm not saying that to tryand like stroke your ego.
It's just really impressive.
It's really amazing because mostpeople when they go seek therapy
don't know what they're doing.
I I remember when I was sent togo, you know, to therapy the
first time, I was like, I don'tunderstand why I'm doing this,
and I don't understand what I'msupposed to do.
(32:42):
You know, I just and if you geta therapist, and therapists are
people, and they you can get youcan get a you know, a I
shouldn't say bad therapist, butan incompetent therapist.
SPEAKER_01 (32:51):
Like you know, I mean shop for that reason.
If if I'm not the righttherapist shop, yeah.
If I'm not the right therapistfor you, let's go help you find
one that is.
SPEAKER_00 (33:01):
But people don't know what to look for a lot of
times.
Like they don't understand likethe purpose of therapy, they
don't understand what to lookfor.
And I was being told that I wasI was going to therapy by, you
know, I was told bypsychiatrists I needed to go
learn coping mechanisms becausethere was no idea of me healing,
especially back in 1998 when Iwas first diagnosed, right?
And and every time I would go,it would make me feel awful.
(33:22):
And so I just kept quitting.
And I'm will be forever gratefulthat I listened to the last
person that was like, pleasejust try one more time.
It was a my church leader, andhe, I was in crisis at the time.
We were really struggling withsome pretty big family issues.
And and I was, you know, askedto try one more time.
And I'm like, I will try onemore time, but I'm never doing
it again if this is the same asit's been every other time.
(33:42):
And thankfully I ended up with agood practitioner who she was an
EMDR therapist, and it workedwonders when I went with her.
And that like revived my hope inthe industry.
And then, you know, but all allthese, all these different
modalities that you have givepeople options and they give
therapists so many tools to workwith to tailor their therapy to
(34:03):
the client and help the client.
You know, I always saytherapist, a good therapist is a
facilitator and they are helpingyou work with, you know, you be
in the driver's seat and youwork with healing and you know,
discovering and identifying andhealing your own issues so that
we don't feel like helpless.
We don't feel like a victim.
SPEAKER_01 (34:20):
That's why I want to teach, that's why I want to
teach my clients.
You can do this outside.
They can even do some some Imove outside to reduce body
sensations.
I teach them how to do that.
Right?
When you when you leave, if youstart to feel these body
sensations on any other, putyour hands about this far apart
or look at a window or a pictureand move your eyes back and
forth for about 30 seconds,recognize what's happening in
(34:40):
your body.
Usually it takes twice.
So be aware of that, sometimesthree times, but just notice the
sensations in your body.
Move your eyes back and forthabout shoulder.
Like I want them to have theskills.
If I if I get fired becausethey've learned it, great.
Yeah, great.
I don't want to keep clients for10, 15 years.
SPEAKER_00 (34:59):
Do I have to do there's plenty of well, and
there's plenty of people outthere that need help.
It's not like a therapist needsto keep on to the same clients
for the whole time.
You know, there's lots of peoplewho need help and not enough
good therapists to go around, inmy opinion.
unknown (35:13):
I agree.
SPEAKER_01 (35:14):
I agree.
And that's why I want to helpfacilitate some of the
trainings.
I want the therapist to havethese skills to be able to do
some of the things.
And that's that's difficult.
So I want to go oh go ahead.
The other thing I think isreally important in therapy is a
good intake session, right?
Yes.
I remember listening to you andno one asked you about trauma.
(35:35):
Well, I don't understand that.
I don't understand that becausethat's part of our intake form.
Our intake form we're askingabout your diet, we're asking
about your sleep, we're askingyou about your trauma, we're
asking you about youraddictions, we're asking all
those questions, and my style,which is different than most, I
ask them what they like to do.
What are your hobbies?
(35:55):
What makes you mad?
What things make you mad?
And I let 'em ask me a couplequestions because I'm gonna ask
them 700 questions over the nextlittle while.
You can ask me a couple, right?
SPEAKER_02 (36:07):
But because I'm asking you all these hard
things.
Yeah.
So it's it's it's part of theintake.
We have to know those things.
SPEAKER_00 (36:16):
Yeah, and that was one of the things that I loved
when I first talked to you.
It's why I wanted to interviewyou on my podcast, is there are
again, I keep going back tothis, but because we
pathologized these symptoms,there's no curiosity into what
else happened in your life.
That we all all we're beingasked is what the symptoms are,
severity, you know, frequency,you know, history of family
history of symptoms, like, youknow, family history of
(36:38):
psychiatric diagnosis.
And there's no nobody asked mewhen I went in for my initial
psychiatric physics.
Nobody asked me about my past.
Nobody asked me my story.
Nobody asked.
That's why I asked people totell me their stories all the
time.
Because there's so many clues inthe story.
Like when somebody starts, andit doesn't take very long.
You don't have to spend hoursand hours with somebody usually
to to find the clues of like,oh, we gotta work on this, we
(37:01):
gotta work on this.
Like, there's there's verythere's like gigantic red flags
that are like, well, the yes, ofcourse you've got these
symptoms.
These you've got these thingsthat have happened in your life,
you know.
This is your normal body'sreaction, your brain's reaction
to this trauma.
SPEAKER_01 (37:14):
And sometimes I don't even get to the symptoms
in my intake.
I don't even get to it becausethat's not most important.
Right.
Right.
I've always been told I wasdepressed.
Okay, we'll talk aboutdepression.
But that's what it is.
We'll talk about depression.
That's not the most important.
SPEAKER_00 (37:31):
Yeah.
Well, and I I had one time whenI was talking to somebody and
they told me that they werealways sad their whole life.
You know, she said, from myearly childhood, I was just sad.
And and the way she was sayingit was like, I just have always
had depression.
And so I started asking her somequestions and I said, So tell
me, let me, you said you fromyour childhood, what is what you
know, what tell me about yourchildhood?
(37:52):
And as she talked about it, itbecame very easy to understand
why that little girl felt sosad.
And I said, Did anybody ask youwhy you felt sad?
You know, and she said, Well,no, I just had depression.
And I said, But why were yousad?
And as we talked about it, Isaid, somebody should have said,
you know, and I said her name, Isaid, Why are you sad?
Tell me why you're sad and talkto you about, you know, as she
(38:16):
as you talked to me about yourchildhood, you had a sad
childhood.
Like, of course you were sad.
And nobody ever asked you aboutit.
Nobody ever gave that littlegirl what she needed.
And that's one of the things Iloved about what you were saying
when you were talking about likethe CMI and the ART, that those
needs weren't being met.
And so your brain is trying tomeet the needs in the best way
it can.
And as we're, you know, in ouryouth, we don't have the skills
(38:39):
necessary to understand whatwe're dealing with.
Or so we we come up with uhoften very unhealthy ways of
coping with things, right?
And then then if it'spathologized, then we think
we're broken, you know, and wewe develop this idea of who we
are based on you know all ofthese unhealthy things that that
got built around this trauma orthis, you know, the neglect or
whatever it was in the childhoodthat that left you feeling, you
(39:02):
know, unwell, left your brains,you know, grasping for things to
try and care for itself.
SPEAKER_01 (39:07):
Yeah.
And and so we survive.
We survive with the cards we'vebeen given.
SPEAKER_00 (39:12):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (39:12):
And it's not anybody's fault necessarily.
Sometimes there are neglect andabuse and things that we can
say.
You were victimized, but youdon't have to be a victim, which
is a big thing to me, right?
But we find these survivalskills.
Well, if we're have thesesurvival skills or maladapted
coping skills, right?
There's a reason underneaththat.
And yes, do I have to keep yousafe?
(39:34):
Yes.
Does your life matter?
Yes.
If you're suicidal, I willhospitalize you straight out.
Your life is more important tome, right?
But why are you suicidal?
Let's talk about that.
Let's figure it out because thatis just your coping skill,
right?
That's your survival skill.
(39:56):
Why did you have to survive?
Why can't you just enjoy lifeand thrive?
We have to figure that out.
SPEAKER_02 (40:03):
That's the piece that's more important because I
don't want to hospitalize you.
Right?
I want to help you deal.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (40:13):
I know.
The first time that I startedlearning about parts work and
IFS and that, I was kind of blewmy mind because all of a sudden
all of these things started tomake sense.
I'm like, oh.
So when I was experiencingsuicidal ideation for those
years that built up to theattempts, my brain was trying to
solve the problem and there wereno other options left.
And so it was like, well, thisis the only option we have left.
(40:34):
And so my so instead of feelinglike there's something really
wrong with me, it was starting,it was, it enabled me to start
having compassion for myself andrecognize like my brain was just
trying to help me.
Yeah.
And it was this, it was tryingto solve the problem and it had
gone through all of the otheroptions and there was nothing
left.
And so it was like, well, thisis the option.
So this is what we need to donow.
And it was not helping me in ahelpful way, but it was trying
(40:57):
to help me.
And it helped me to havecompassion for that part of
myself and not feel like there'slike, oh, don't tell people that
that's you know, normal peopledon't think things like that.
That was a thing that I thatkept me from asking for help for
years was don't tell anybodyyou're thinking that because
normal people don't think thatway, you know?
Yeah, they do.
SPEAKER_01 (41:15):
Everybody has had suicide ideation, everybody has
had thoughts of I don't want todo this anymore.
Life would be easier instead.
Right?
Everybody and they tell me theyhaven't, I know they're lying,
because everybody has.
That is normal.
And we can normalize some ofthat too.
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah, and and learn how to giveyour brain plan, that's a
(41:36):
different but everybody hasthoughts.
SPEAKER_00 (41:39):
Yeah.
And learning how to give yourbrain what it's asking for, like
learning how to listen in a waythat with curiosity and think,
okay, that's not healthy, butthere's something going on
that's making my brain reach outin an unhealthy, unhealthy way,
you know.
So, oh man, this is so amazing.
So when somebody comes to yourclinic, how do you decide like
(42:00):
how you know who who's gonnatreat them?
Is that is there like a methodto that or do they Yes and no?
unknown (42:07):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (42:07):
My I my schedule's very full, and I only do word of
mouth referrals.
So if they can't wait for myschedule and we know what their
need is, we get a little bit ofwhat their need is, that will
decide.
And again, it's a God thing forus.
It is.
Like I'll I'll read their intakebecause every intake goes
through me before they'reassigned, and I'll read their
(42:29):
intake and I'll say, Oh, thisperson needs this person needs
Jen.
Right?
Not everybody likes to docouples work.
Jen and I will do couples work,so that kind of narrows that
down, but it really is prayerfulto me.
And Mo is a rock star like that,she's very prayerful about
things too.
So she'll say, Jenny, here'sthis intake, and I think they
should go to this person, and Itrust her, and I know that
(42:51):
that's it.
So it really is just if they askfor someone directly, we get
them into that person directly.
If they ask, if they come inwith specific things, um,
whoever fits that need the best,but it's also who where they're
supposed to be.
SPEAKER_00 (43:09):
Can I ask you about boundaries?
I've talked about it on mypodcast myself.
Um, and I do think there are alot of people who don't really
understand what boundaries are.
They don't.
It's something that is like,especially when somebody, if
you've got it, especially inlike marriages and in family
systems, if you've got at leastone person in that family system
that is struggling with mentalhealth, and and even more,
(43:32):
especially if they have beendiagnosed with, you know, any
kind of psychiatric condition,you end up with unhealthy
boundaries just by default.
Like it's just there's just noway to, you know, it's almost
like people don't think thatit's possible to have healthy
boundaries in those situationsbecause that person is sick and
they can't help themselves,right?
And so then you end up with likeall these uh unhealthy dynamics.
And so I talk about how criticalhealthy boundaries are in order
(43:54):
to actually, you know, heal andrecover.
So can you talk?
Would you mind talking a littlebit about?
Like how you describe boundariesto people and what that looks
like, you know, so peopleunderstand.
Cause I think what there's somuch talk online about
boundaries and not all of itaccurate.
And so people don't have anunderstanding of what a boundary
is.
I didn't.
I I finally admitted it to mytherapist at one point.
(44:15):
Like, she kept talking abouttheir boundaries, and I'm like,
okay, so I don't actuallyunderstand what boundaries are.
Can you tell me what you'retalking about, please?
So would you mind sharing likewhat you share with people?
SPEAKER_01 (44:25):
So the two things I talk about is internal and
external boundaries, right?
Internal boundaries are where Iend and you begin.
So let's say my husband comes upand he starts yelling at me
because I forgot to turn off thelight.
Well, I have to look at myself.
Did I create that problem?
Did I contribute to his anger?
And the answer is no.
I didn't have to make him angry.
Did I forget to turn out thelight?
Probably, but he chose theanger.
(44:46):
So I don't have to respond tothat.
I can say, oh, I'm sorry Ididn't turn out the light, but I
don't have to react to his angerbecause I didn't create it.
Does that make sense?
That's an internal boundary.
I end here, you begin there.
And if I didn't step into yourbeginning, that's not mine.
But x external boundaries arethis is mine.
(45:06):
This is what I'm going to do.
A rule is what I expect fromsomeone else.
And most people think boundariesare rules.
You cannot speak to me that way.
That's that's a rule.
And I have no power over anybodyelse.
I only have power over J.
My boundary is that if I'mspoken to disrespectfully, I
will leave the situation.
(45:27):
And two things I don't tolerate.
I don't tolerate dishonestdishonesty, I don't tolerate
disrespect.
I'm very my boundaries are verytight around this, right?
So if it's someone I care about,I'll say, I would love to have
that conversation with you whenthe tone is more respect.
Until then we're going todisengage from I will disengage
from this conversation.
If it's someone I don't have agood relationship with, I don't
(45:49):
know, I just leave thesituation.
My boundary is I won't be in aconversation with disrespect.
I can't tell you not todisrespect me.
I can't walk with a sign on mychest saying don't disrespect
me.
But I if I feel disrespected, Ican handle it myself.
So a boundary is personal to me.
It's not a rule for someone.
(46:10):
And I teach people that all thetime, and then we start
practicing simple boundaries,right?
Not all boundaries have to beshared, which is unheard of for
most people.
Well, I have to tell them howI'm going to do it.
Actually, you don't now get apartnership, a marriage, that
type of relationship, some of myboundaries will be shared with
my spouse.
(46:31):
But not everything.
Not all boundaries becausethey're so personal to me.
I don't have to tell everybodymy boundaries.
And that's where people getcaught because they think it's a
rule, and I have to share therules.
You're right.
Rules have to be spoken, but youcan't force them.
Boundaries are yours.
They're nobody else's.
They're mine.
Mind is set, mind to hold, mindto be consistent.
SPEAKER_00 (46:54):
Yeah, and personal accountability, you know, it's
that's one of the things I, youknow, I was I'm always talking
about like this is yourresponsibility, this is his
responsibility.
You have to stop trying to likefix each other and stop trying
to get into each other'sbusiness because it's not going
to help, first of all.
You cannot fix another person.
And and it can createresentment, it can create, you
know, it it creates distrust.
(47:16):
There's all these issues thatare created when we try to get
into, you know, like cross intoeach other's territory and start
trying to fix the other personand change the other person.
And that's one thing that I seeall the time.
And I wanted to ask you, I justout of curiosity, do you have
people that will come to you formarriage counseling, for
example?
And as you're working with them,recognize we probably should do
(47:37):
some individual work.
Like, does that happen often andvice versa?
Like when you've got somebodythat's coming into you for
individual therapy, do you eversuggest, like, I think it would
be a good idea if you, you know,your you and your spouse came in
for couples counseling?
Like, is that something that youguys do in your clinic?
SPEAKER_01 (47:51):
All the time.
unknown (47:52):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (47:53):
And then they'll say, Well, will you see us for
individual and for couples?
And I said, It will depend.
Because I don't mind doing that.
Some therapists absolutelycannot separate you.
I can't.
But it will depend.
It'll depend on my schedule.
It'll depend on your schedule,it'll depend on the need, right?
It it depends.
But yes, all the time peoplecome in an individual and they
really need relationship work,and then they'll come in for
(48:14):
relationship work and they'vegot their own childhood cultures
and traumas that have come inthat they have to kill for the
relationship to work.
So it just depends.
But yes, we do that all thetime.
SPEAKER_00 (48:25):
Yeah.
Okay.
And then my last question foryou.
Well, I've got two questions.
I'm going to give you a heads upon the final question.
So the final question is alwayslike, what's your one one, you
know, parting piece of advicethat you would like to somebody
to take away?
But before I ask you that, soI'm going to give you a second
to kind of think about that.
But um, what would you recommendto somebody who has had bad
(48:47):
experiences, say, you know, likeI did with therapy, that is like
listening to this and thinking,oh, maybe, maybe I could try it
again.
What would you recommend tothem?
Like, how would you recommendthey approach looking for a good
practitioner?
You know, do you have resourcesyou could recommend or do you
have any ideas for them for howthey can research modalities?
Because I think that's one ofthe things that people struggle
with is they don't understandany of these treatment
(49:09):
modalities.
And so that creates a barrierfor them, you know, knowing what
to look for in a therapist.
SPEAKER_01 (49:14):
I do think that's really important.
I have to step in that world alittle bit because I know
treatment modalities.
I know where to research and howto look, right?
But I do I do recommend a lot ofpeople when they call, they say
I have trauma experiences.
Okay, have you looked into ARTor have you looked into CMI or
have you looked?
So we say that a lot on ourintakes because that helps us
assign a therapist too.
(49:36):
But just start looking bestpractice for trauma.
Like ART is recognized by theVeterans Administration as best
practice, by Department ofDefense, and by non best
practice for PTSD, right?
Best practice for PTSD andtreatment resistant pressure,
which we also have at ourclinic.
We have academy the on-staffdoctor, right?
(49:58):
So finding out what do I thinkI'm struggling with and what
helps, and just go on AI,there's great things about it,
horrible things about it.
They are not a therapist, eventhough that's a number of the
reason people use AI.
But you can ask what is the bestpractice for being a victim of
sexual assault?
Ask them, they'll tell you whereto look and how to look.
(50:21):
Don't use them as a therapist,so they are not a good
therapist.
SPEAKER_00 (50:26):
Awesome.
And then what what is the onething that you hope somebody
will take away from ourconversation?
What's the the number one thingthat you're hoping somebody will
take away?
SPEAKER_01 (50:36):
No matter what you've been told, no matter how
you feel, you are not broken.
And there is you can heal.
You can heal.
And I think that's mostimportant.
I don't see anybody as broken.
And they come in and tell methey are all the time, and
they're not.
They're not.
They've had some hardexperiences.
SPEAKER_00 (50:56):
They're not that's fantastic.
All right, where can people findyou if they want to connect with
you?
SPEAKER_01 (51:02):
Oh, um, our website www.healthierucc.com.
I have to think about that.
Or they can just call it.
It's 801-701-0348.
SPEAKER_00 (51:13):
Wonderful.
I'll make sure all of your linksare in the show notes so people
can find you there.
Thank you so much.
This has been a fantasticconversation.
I'm actually super curious nowto look into these things, these
modalities more becauseespecially this, the the CMI.
Like I just had never, when Iwas re reading through your bio,
I'm like, what is that?
And I was like typing it in,looking it up.
(51:33):
And so I'm very excited to learnmore about these things.
And thank you so much forsharing what you have and for
everything you're doing.
It's it's just really inspiring.
Thank you.
Thanks.
Thanks for having me on.
It's been fun.
Absolutely.
All right, until next time,upsiders.
(51:56):
Thanks for joining me on theUpside of Bipolar.
Your journey to recoverymatters, and I'm grateful you're
here.
For more resources, visitwww.theupsideofbipolar.com.
If you're ready to dive deeper,grab my book, The Upside of
Bipolar (52:10):
Seven Steps to Heal Your Disorder.
If you're ready to heal yoursymptoms, join my monthly
membership, The Upsiders Tribe,to transform chaos into hope.
Until next time, Upsiders.
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