May 5, 2026 • 47 mins
In this episode of The Veterinary Culture Lab, Andi and Josh explore the role of interpersonal curiosity—and why it might be one of the most underrated skills in veterinary medicine today.
Grounded in research on resilience in veterinary students, this conversation unpacks how curiosity shows up in the way we interpret stress, respond to challenges, and connect with the people around us. Because it turns out—resilience is not just about “bouncing back”…it is about how we make sense of what is happening in the first place.
From initial skepticism around wellbeing strategies to meaningful mindset shifts, this episode highlights how perspective-taking, support systems, and self-awareness are not just personal tools—they are cultural ones. And when curiosity is present, everything from communication to coping starts to change. You’ll hear:
- Why curiosity plays a critical role in how we experience stress and resilience
- What veterinary students revealed about how resilience actually develops
- How simple perspective shifts can change the way we respond to challenges
- Why support systems and connection are essential to thriving—not optional
- What this means for teams trying to build healthier, more sustainable cultures
Whether you are navigating a tough case, a tense conversation, or just trying to make it through a busy day, this episode will challenge you to pause, get curious, and consider what might be possible if we replaced assumption with understanding.
Resource Links:
Episode Article:
Title: Interpersonal curiosity as a tool to foster safe relational spaces: a narrative literature reviewAuthors:Melanie Letendre Jauniaux & Heather L. Lawford
DOI: https://doi.org/10.3389/fpsyg.2024.1379330
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Your Hosts:
Andi Davison LVT, CAPP, APPC
Josh Vaisman MAPPCP, CCFP
At Flourish Veterinary Consulting we renovate veterinary cultures. We diagnose what’s working, blueprint what’s next, and train every team member - blending positive psychology with real-world experience - so thriving becomes the norm, not the myth.
Timestamps:
00:00 Curiosity Sets the Stage
00:42 Names and Nicknames
02:01 Colorado Weather Whiplash
06:15 Hospital Story Sideways Curiosity
09:57 Vet Clinic Assumptions Lesson
13:16 Courage to Ask Deeper
15:31 Paper Intro Interpersonal Curiosity
18:17 Overt vs Covert Curiosity
21:09 Relational Safety vs Psychological Safety
22:28 Curiosity Builds Trust
23:09 Curiosity As Culture
25:00 Covert Coaching After Error
28:39 Affiliative Intent First
32:17 Overt Versus Covert
37:28 Repetition Builds Muscles
38:51 Vet Team Ideas In Action
46:21 Wrap Up And Thanks
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_02 (00:04):
Welcome to the Veterinary Culture Lab, where
science meets real-worldapplication.
I'm Andy Davison.
SPEAKER_00 (00:12):
And I'm Josh Weisman.
Together, we'll show you anevidence-based blueprint for
renovating culture in yourveterinary team, one episode at
a time.
SPEAKER_02 (00:23):
Curiosity.
Sounds simple, right?
Just ask more questions.
But what if the way that we'rebeing curious is actually
creating distance instead ofconnection?
Today we're digging into thescience behind curiosity and why
how we ask matters just as muchas what we ask.
Hello, Joshua.
(00:43):
How are you today?
SPEAKER_00 (00:44):
I'm good, Andrea.
How are you doing today?
SPEAKER_02 (00:46):
How often do people call you Joshua?
It feels weird.
SPEAKER_00 (00:50):
I don't get called Joshua very often.
I'm sometimes called John, whichI think is hilarious to me.
People will accidentally call meJohn.
I don't know.
I must look like a John.
I had a friend in high school,her name was Tara, and Tara
would call me Oa.
Ooh.
Yeah, she would call me Oabecause everyone called me Josh,
and she felt like the last twoletters must have felt left out.
SPEAKER_01 (01:08):
I love that.
SPEAKER_00 (01:09):
Yeah, so she would call me Oa.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (01:11):
That is really that's good.
That's creative.
I love it.
SPEAKER_00 (01:14):
Are you ever called Andrea, other than like in these
random conversations?
SPEAKER_02 (01:19):
No, not really.
I mean, officially, right?
Like if you're going to thedoctor or if you're boarding the
plane or if you're doingsomething official at the bank,
like official stuff.
Um, but I'm almost always calledAndy.
My big sort of oops is that theyalways spell it wrong.
SPEAKER_01 (01:36):
It's always with the why.
With the why.
No, I'm Andy with an I.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (01:40):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I've totally seen that.
I feel like I've hadconversations with people like
by email or something.
Um, folks who know you, butthey're sending me an email and
they'll refer to you.
And in the email, they theyalmost always it's A N D Y.
Why?
Yep.
It's just not right.
Hey, I I actually have somethingI want to share with you because
I find it very entertaining.
(02:01):
Um, you live in Florida, I livein Colorado.
We have very different weather.
One of the things that you havethat, of course, we don't have
is hurricanes, right?
Yeah.
We yeah, we don't get hurricanesin Colorado.
Sometimes we get like tornadoes,obviously.
SPEAKER_02 (02:14):
Don't worry if you did.
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (02:16):
Seriously.
Um a few years back, I don'tknow if you remember this.
I'm trying to remember exactlywhen it was, maybe four-ish
years ago, something like this.
It made national news.
So so I ask people, there was amassive winter windstorm.
So what will happen in Coloradosometimes is like we'll get
surprisingly on the front range,it most people don't expect
this.
They think of Colorado, theythink of winter, they think of
(02:36):
lots of snow and skiing.
And that happens in themountains, but down here on the
front range, which is thewestern plains in the center of
the country, right?
Um, it's not unusual for us tonot really get any
precipitation, snow, rain,anything, until January or
February.
And so it gets really dry.
And then sometimes we'll havethese fronts move through where
it's super windy, these crazywinds that come off of the
(02:59):
mountains, and it might be warmand it's really dry.
And so this is fire danger.
And there was a big fire.
I don't know if you rememberthis.
It was a fire like right outsideof Boulder, and it was unusual
for a couple of reasons.
First of all, because ithappened in the boulder area.
Most of the fires that we havein Colorado are like in the
mountains, but also it was superwindy, and the fire traveled
very, very quickly uh acrossinto like the Louisville area,
(03:22):
um, which is fairly denselypopulated, and I think something
like 1,100 homes burned.
Do you remember this?
Do you recall this at all?
SPEAKER_02 (03:29):
Oh, very vaguely, yes.
SPEAKER_00 (03:30):
Yeah, it was always devastating.
It was bad.
It was really devastating, itwas horrific.
Where we live, which is probablylike I don't know, 20, 25 miles
northeast of there, like wecould see it from here.
It was it was really bad, it wasterrifying.
Um, it turned out afterwardsthat one of the utilities, one
of the major providers ofelectricity, was kind of at
(03:52):
fault for the reason that thefire started.
Well, this week in Colorado,there's these big windstorms
coming through.
There was one here on Wednesday,and there's one that's
supposedly coming through today.
And so the um the utilities havelike preemptively shut in some
of these neighborhoods.
Yeah.
My my wife's like one of herfriends, like, no power at her
(04:14):
house for a few hours.
Just like, we're just we're notscrewing around, we're not gonna
pay out you know, millions orbillions of dollars again.
We're just gonna cut off power.
But what's funny to me is theway that they've like sort of
justified it is like thelanguage is like it's gonna be
hundred mile an hour winds, it'shurricane force winds.
And I'm like, we're in Colorado.
It's not, I mean, I get it, yes,it's the same speed, but it's
(04:38):
gusts and it's not a hurricane.
I just think it's really funnythat they're describing it as
hurricane force winds, hurricaneforce winds.
SPEAKER_01 (04:46):
The hurricanes of Colorado.
SPEAKER_00 (04:48):
Yeah, the hurricanes of Colorado is very, it's very
funny.
Yeah, it's pretty funny.
It's pretty wild.
The weather that we get heresometimes is pretty wild.
So we'll see, we'll see whathappens today.
Knock on wood, it's not like itwas a few years ago.
SPEAKER_02 (05:01):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
No, the your weather isfascinating.
I never would have expected theColorado weather to be so
versatile, I think is the wordI'll use.
Because I I'm I'm that personthat's like, oh, it snows there.
Cool.
SPEAKER_00 (05:14):
Yeah, and that's where it stops.
SPEAKER_02 (05:15):
But no.
SPEAKER_00 (05:16):
Today is uh December 19th that we are recording this,
and it is supposed to be almost70 degrees today.
SPEAKER_02 (05:24):
Oh, that's lovely.
SPEAKER_00 (05:26):
Yeah, Christmas Day is supposed to be clear and 67.
Like that doesn't that's notwhat you think of when you think
of Colorado.
SPEAKER_01 (05:33):
Not at all.
Not at all.
SPEAKER_00 (05:34):
Yep, nope.
Speaking of Christmas, I Irealized recently that I have a
new superpower.
Oh, dude Yeah, I can actuallysee inside of wrapped presents.
Like with for the holidays, youknow, like my wife is like
wrapping presents, you know, forme, for other people, this and
that.
I don't have to be there whenshe wraps it.
Like she she shows me thewrapped present, I can see
(05:56):
inside it.
Okay.
It's a gift.
SPEAKER_02 (05:58):
Does she roll her eyes at you when you do stuff
like that too?
SPEAKER_00 (06:01):
She doesn't even bother rolling her eyes.
That's a waste of her time andenergy.
SPEAKER_01 (06:05):
Oh, it's just another day with Josh.
SPEAKER_00 (06:08):
It's just another day with Josh.
I'm so sorry.
Ooh.
Yeah, thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (06:12):
Another day with ooh.
Oh, that's funny.
That's funny.
SPEAKER_02 (06:15):
Well, Josh, I would actually like to share a story
with you.
And while it isn't weatherrelated, I think it's something
that you and the listeners arereally going to kind of
appreciate and relate to.
And this story, this moment, itended up being really
influential on how I think aboutcuriosity, leadership, and
thriving at work.
(06:36):
Now, this story comes from amoment back in my time at a
booming and bustling hospital.
I remember the day we had avariety of patients that needed
everything from a physical examto new fluid bags every two
hours.
It was busy, it was loud, it wasbarely controlled chaos.
Now, one of the residents that Iworked with pretty normally was
(06:58):
chatty.
She was helpful, you know, thekind of person that smiles at
you when you walk by, the onethat always checks in with the
team right before they roll uptheir sleeves to dig in and get
shit done.
But this day, it was different.
When I arrived at the hospital,they were already there, elbows
deep into the shift, head down,blinders on, no jokes, no
(07:19):
smiles, just quiet focus.
Now I noticed this immediately.
And this is the part that I'mnot super proud of because
instead of getting genuinelycurious with her, I allowed my
brain to start creating reasonsfor why she was so quietly
focused.
(07:40):
I totally started assuming.
Or was she, God forbid, mad atme?
And instead of asking them, Idid exactly what so many of us
do.
I asked around quiet questions,whispered in the corner of the
(08:04):
pharmacy.
Hey, Dr.
Sunshine seems a bit off today.
Do you know what's going on withthem?
And the more I did that, themore my assumptions hardened,
even though I had zero actualinformation.
Eventually, I did.
I found a quiet moment away fromthe ringing phones and the
beeping pumps to actually checkin with her directly.
(08:26):
And I will never ever forgetthis part.
Because when I finally asked,genuinely asked, what was going
on, the answer was absolutelynothing like what I assumed.
Not even close.
And in that moment, it reallyhit me how powerful curiosity
actually is and how dangerous itcan be if we do it sideways.
(08:50):
There were two versions ofcuriosity available to me that
day.
One created distance andmisunderstanding, and the other
created a connection with trustand support.
That experience really cementedsomething that I truly and
firmly believe pretty darndeeply that genuine curiosity is
(09:11):
the foundation of thriving.
Because when we're truly curiouswith ourselves and with others,
we invite perspective,understanding, and connection,
all of which support productiverelationships that can
contribute to our thriving,right?
In ways that are pretty darnmagical.
So, Josh, have you ever realizedthat a story that you told
(09:34):
yourself about someone orsomething was completely wrong
once you actually asked aboutit?
SPEAKER_00 (09:40):
Um I think the question you want to ask is,
Josh, in the last 24 hours, haveyou ever realized that?
Yeah.
Uh I I feel like this happensconstantly, right?
Like the stories in our head andwhen we actually collect
real-world data and how thatoften misaligns with the stories
in our head.
Uh, but an example that I'mthinking of as I was listening
to you describe this experienceat work takes me back, oh gosh,
(10:04):
um 15, 16 years ago, somethinglike that.
At a hospital, I was themanaging partner and I was the
hospital director.
And uh, we had a client that wasdropping off her cat for a
pretty extensive dentalprocedure.
And I remember I was sittingback in the office, and one of
the veterinarians there cameback and said, Hey, just so you
know, um, Mrs.
Smith is gonna need to talk toyou when she picks up Fluffy
(10:26):
because she's probably gonnaneed a payment plan.
She's you know, really upsetabout the cost and you know, she
can't afford it and like allthese things, right?
All these things that I laterrealized were assumptions based
on a very, very limitedinteraction.
So at the end of the day, whenit came to discharge for this
patient, um, the vet likereminded me, she was like super
nervous about this client comingback in, right?
(10:48):
So just like you know, dischargeis coming, I need you up there.
Uh and so I, you know, I went upand I met with Mrs.
Smith and, you know, I askedher.
I said, Hey, my understanding isthat you're curious about a
payment plan for uh Fluffy'sprocedure today.
She says, Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'dlove to hear more about that.
So I got out our document, Iwalked her through it.
It was like an agreement, youknow, here are the
specifications.
(11:09):
Um, here's what we ask you tosign, here's the options we have
for dividing out the payment,um, here's the administration
fee, and then here's theinterest that we charge on any
unpaid portion.
And she looked at me and shesaid, Oh, wait, there's an
there's extra fees.
I thought that it was just likea, you know, to break up payment
over time.
And of course, that like withthe assumptions that I had about
(11:32):
her, based on the assumptionsthat my partner had about her,
the immediate story in my headwas like, Oh, this person's
gonna be a real pain in the ass.
They don't want to pay.
They're probably one of thosepeople that thinks that we
overcharge for things and thisand that.
I said, Yeah, you know, I'mreally sorry.
We're not like a standard bank.
Um, you know, I can't offer youthat kind of thing.
Like, this is this is what wecan offer.
What would you like to do?
(11:53):
And she, no joke, Andy, reachedinto her pocket and pulled out,
I shit you not, a giant wad ofhundred dollar bills.
Like rolled up like I was, Iknow.
I was like, uh, I don't knowwhat you do for a living.
It's different than what I do.
Um, and she like she sheunfolded it and she just pulled
out 11 of them or whatever itwas for this procedure and just
(12:15):
paid for it in cash.
And I was like shocked, likereally shocked.
And I remember in the momentjust like being like slackjawed,
like, I don't even know what'shappening here.
But somehow I had thewherewithal to ask her.
I said, you know, I gotta behonest with you, I'm a little
bit surprised.
I thought that you like weregonna have issues paying this
bill, but here you are payingfor it in full in cash.
(12:36):
And she said, Yeah, it was neverreally about the bill for me.
And she described some things tome that were going on in her
life.
She was juggling finances, andshe figured if there was a way
to like spread this out overtime instead of pay the whole
thing up front, that wouldactually benefit her uh in other
areas of her life.
She was she had no problem withwhat we charged, she was
completely happy with the levelof care.
(12:56):
This was a client who was gonnacome back.
Like all of these assumptionskind of went out the door simply
because I asked.
This is what I'm seeing.
This is what I kind of toldmyself in my head, help me
understand the gap here.
And she explained the gap.
SPEAKER_02 (13:12):
Yeah.
It sounds like that extraquestion, right?
That deeper, curious questionwas really helpful to you and
her.
And I'd I would love to hearwhat gave you the courage to go
there instead of just sittingwith your assumption or in
realizing that your assumptionmaybe wasn't right and just
(13:33):
putting your tail between yourlegs and like scooting off to
the office with your wad ofhundred dollar bills.
SPEAKER_00 (13:38):
Yeah, that's a great question.
Um, I am cherry picking a story,obviously, for the purpose of
this episode uh that displays meusing curiosity in a moment like
that.
I don't know how many times inmy life I failed to do that.
I didn't have the courage or theopenness to ask that question.
And that's really, I think, whatwas happening there for me in
(13:58):
that moment.
I don't actually view it ascourage.
I don't think I was beingcourageous.
I think I was just downrightcurious.
Like I was very surprised.
And in that moment, instead ofwhat I've probably done a
hundred times in my life, whichis like just hold on to a new
story, never get any real dataabout it.
(14:19):
Like it would have been reallyeasy for me to walk away from
that and be like, well, thenwhat the hell was she
complaining about in the firstplace?
Clearly, this person can affordthis stuff.
What is wrong with her?
Gosh, I wonder where all thatcash came from, right?
Like, you know, like I couldhave just taken that and walked
away with that.
But for some reason, in thatmoment, maybe it was the
surprise of it all.
I don't know.
But it it allowed me to have amoment of openness, which led to
(14:43):
curiosity.
And and that curiosity ended upbeing like, okay, I gotta be
honest with you, this is notwhat I expected.
Like, I really just wanted toknow.
This is weird, what is going onhere?
And allowing her the space to dothat, sons judgment.
I think that was the other thingtoo.
Like, I wasn't being judgmental,like I really just wanted to
(15:04):
understand.
Um, and that gave her theopportunity to, she was very
matter-of-fact about it.
Like, she was also notjudgmental or defensive.
She was just like, Oh, yeah, Ijust figured if there was a way
for me to spread this out, thatit would be better for me.
But there isn't, so I'm justgonna pay for it.
SPEAKER_02 (15:19):
Gosh, yeah.
Wow.
How cool that you were both ableto walk away from that
experience, right, withoutjudging one another and
understanding more about whereeach person came from.
That's a great story.
And it leads into the paper thatI've brought to the lab today
perfectly, because this paper,it's fresh, right?
It was published back in 2024 inFrontiers in Psychology.
(15:43):
And it was written by twopeople, one of which I'm going
to screw up their name royally,and I apologize in advance.
But the authors of this articleare Heather Lawford and here we
go, Melanie Latondra We're gonnago.
And yeah, I'm gonna go withthat.
I uh I'm excited about thisarticle though, and I'm grateful
(16:05):
to the authors because when Icame across it, I couldn't stop
grinning and I couldn't downloadit fast enough because the title
alone is really on brand for thethings that we care about here
at Flourish.
The title of this paper isInterpersonal Curiosity as a
tool to foster safe relationalspaces, which, yeah, may sound a
(16:26):
little bit academic at firstglance.
But once you dig in, you realizethat this paper is actually
talking about somethingincredibly human and incredibly
relevant to veterinary teams?
Because at its core, this paperasks a deceptively simple
question.
Can curiosity about other peoplehelp create safer, more
(16:48):
trusting, more connectedrelationships?
And if so, what kind ofcuriosity actually helps?
And what kind quietly makesthings worse?
Now, here's an important thingto name right up front, because
this paper is actually not asingle experiment.
And it's not even ameta-analysis that crunches
(17:09):
numbers and data.
This paper is what we call anarrative literature review,
which means the authors went outand peer-reviewed studies across
multiple disciplines.
In this case, they pulled 23studies from psychology,
healthcare, education,negotiation, crisis management,
right?
And then pulled all of thosefindings together, organized and
(17:32):
advanced them into a coherentand actionable argument about
how interpersonal curiosityactually functions in real
relationships.
So basically the authors wereasking two big questions.
How does interpersonal curiositycreate relational safety?
And how do we turn science intosomething that real humans can
(17:56):
actually do?
That translation from researchinto real life is the thing that
got me so excited about thispaper and why it felt like a
total no-brainer to bring itinto the lab.
Because this is not theory fortheory's sake.
This is what does sciencecollectively tell us and how do
we actually use it?
Cool, right?
SPEAKER_00 (18:16):
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02 (18:18):
So let's talk first about what they mean by
interpersonal curiosity, becausethis is not about being nosy and
it's definitely not about askingmore questions just for the sake
of asking them.
The authors define interpersonalcuriosity as the genuine desire
to understand other people,their experiences, emotions,
perspectives, stories.
(18:39):
And they make a pretty importantdistinction early on.
They say that curiosity can showup for us in two ways as a state
or something momentary,intentional, something that we
choose in a specificinteraction, or as a trait,
which is a more stable habit, away that someone consistently
(19:00):
shows up to relationships overtime.
That distinction, Josh, itmatters because it means that
curiosity is not a personalitytrait.
It's not something that you haveor don't have.
It's a skill, something that canbe practiced, shaped, and
strengthened.
Now, here's where the paper getsinteresting and kind of relevant
(19:21):
to veterinary culture becausethe authors show us that
curiosity is not automaticallygood.
And I feel like this is such animportant counterpoint because
we hear just be curious, thrownaround all the time in
leadership and well-beingspaces.
This paper reminds us to slowyour role because curiosity can
(19:44):
be expressed in two ways, inovert ways and in covert ways.
Now, overt ways are the thingsthat we want more of.
It's open, respectful,empathetic, connection-focused
curiosity.
It sounds a lot like help meunderstand what this has been
like for you.
What am I missing here?
(20:06):
And you know, I might be wrong,but I'm curious to hear more
about how you're seeing this.
Overt curiosity builds trust.
It increases psychologicalsafety and it helps people feel
seen instead of scrutinized.
But then there is covertcuriosity.
Covert curiosity is where thingscan quietly go sideways because
(20:30):
that type of curiosity shows upas gossip, snooping,
speculating, right?
Assuming instead of asking, andasking questions that are more
about control than aboutunderstanding.
And the research shows us thatcovert curiosity, especially
when driven by anxiety, powerimbalance, lack of trust,
(20:53):
actually erodes relationalsafety instead of building it
up.
Which, if you've ever worked ina veterinary clinic, you're
probably quietly nodding yourhead right now.
Because curiosity in vetmed, itcan feel amazing or it can feel
like a spotlight that nobodyasked for.
Now, another major contributionof this paper is how clearly it
connects interpersonal curiosityto relational safety.
(21:17):
The authors define relationalsafe spaces as environments
where people feel respected,emotionally secure, and free to
speak honestly.
Now, Josh, this paper it usesthe term relational safety
rather than psychologicalsafety.
And this is intentional.
Relational safety is whathappens in individual
(21:40):
interactions.
Psychological safety is whatemerges when enough of those
interactions consistently feelsafe over time.
So think of it this wayrelational safety is the
ingredient, and psychologicalsafety is the cultural cake that
is a result of those ingredientsbeing.
(22:00):
Constantly added to the mixingbowl.
SPEAKER_00 (22:03):
You said cake.
SPEAKER_02 (22:04):
Cake.
I know.
SPEAKER_00 (22:06):
And now now I crave cake.
unknown (22:08):
Cake.
SPEAKER_02 (22:09):
All the cake, any cake, any time, cake for
breakfast.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (22:13):
Yes, I I want me some psychological safety cake.
SPEAKER_02 (22:16):
Oh, okay.
What does psychological safetycake taste like?
SPEAKER_00 (22:21):
Delicious.
SPEAKER_02 (22:22):
Yes.
I'm on board with that.
Okay.
So we don't get off on cake fortoo long.
The 23 studies that theseauthors looked at, reviewed, and
kind of shared with us revealeda consistent pattern.
That when interpersonalcuriosity is expressed overtly
and empathetically, it actuallystrengthens trust.
(22:44):
It supports conflict repair andit improves learning and
collaboration.
In other words, curious, inother words, curiosity helps
human teams stay human whenthings get hard.
It helps them tolerateuncertainty without becoming
(23:04):
defensive.
And I love it because theauthors, they didn't stop here.
They actually took it one stepfurther.
And they talked about howcuriosity can become cultural.
They explained that whilecuriosity can start as a state,
right?
That moment-to-moment choice,that when it's repeated and
practiced, that it can turn intoa trait, which means curiosity
(23:29):
is modeled in our cultures.
It can be rewarded and it canbecome normalized in leadership
and peer interactions.
The more it becomes how we dothings around here, quote
fingers, is that magical steptowards culture renovation.
So, no, this is not aboutteaching people to ask better
(23:51):
questions one.
This is about shaping relationalhabits that make psychological
safety more likely over time.
So, to zoom out for just asecond, the paper ultimately
gives us a framework.
It helps us understand whycuriosity can be such a powerful
cultural tool when it helpsrelationships thrive and when it
(24:13):
quietly causes harm.
And it gives leaders, teams, andhumans in hard jobs, hello,
vetmed, a way to practicecuriosity without weaponizing
it, which feels very importantfor the conversation, right?
So, Josh, after sitting with allof this science around curiosity
(24:34):
and relationships, I'm curious,where have you seen curiosity,
good or bad, shape the cultureof a team in a way that really
stuck with you?
SPEAKER_00 (24:43):
Hmm.
I'm thinking of so manyexamples.
I don't want to share all ofthem all at once because we'll
be here for hours.
Um, okay, so a recent one that Ihad, which I think is really
heavily related to the ethos ofthis paper and this idea of
relational safety andcultivating psychological safety
over time.
I was having a conversation witha technician training manager, a
(25:04):
nurse who works in a anemergency practice, and uh they
had a drug dose error.
They had a technician who hadmiscalculated a drug dose,
right?
And we were talking about like,okay, so what are you gonna do
with this?
Like, how are you gonna approachthis?
And her her response wassomething along the lines of,
well, you know, I'd I'd love tosit down and coach this person.
I said, Okay, so what is what iscoaching look like for you?
(25:26):
What will you say?
And and she said, Well, youknow, I'm I I'm I'm curious
about like why they made themistake and what training they
need to make sure that theydon't make the mistake again,
right?
I said, Okay, well, how will youask those questions?
Well, I'll just ask them, like,you know, what do you think
happened here?
Why did you make this mistake?
And what kind of training do youthink you need to make sure you
(25:47):
don't make the mistake again?
And Andy, I can see you kind ofsmirking and nodding.
And so, so I mean, does thatdoes that sound to you like a an
overt or covert form ofcuriosity?
SPEAKER_02 (25:58):
Um, for me, that would definitely land in covert.
SPEAKER_00 (26:00):
Right, yeah, because it sort of implies like there is
something wrong with you.
You are doing something wrong.
You need to write the assumptionis that you are the problem.
And and so I that's what I triedto convey to her.
And I said, you know, what wouldbe ways that we could ask this
with more openness, with more,um, I didn't use the language at
the time because I hadn't heardabout this paper yet, but with
more overt curiosity.
(26:20):
And where we kind of landed wasthat we could ask the question
of like, what got in the way ofyou doing this right?
SPEAKER_03 (26:26):
Right?
SPEAKER_00 (26:27):
Which is that could be anything.
That could be, oh, I actuallydidn't know what I was doing,
but that could also be um therewere two technicians missing
that day, and I was stillexpected to manage the caseload
of three people by myself,right?
So that is an example of how Ithink curiosity shows up in our
day-to-day interactions.
Like this is just a singularinteraction that happens so
(26:48):
frequently in hospitals, but wedon't take the time to really
think about okay, how I'mapproaching my use of curiosity
with this person may notactually be beneficial coaching,
it may be setting them up foruh, you know, for shame.
SPEAKER_02 (27:02):
Mm-hmm.
Yep.
That spotlight that nobody askedfor.
There it is.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Well, hello there.
If this conversation is landingwith you, I'm willing to bet
you're not alone.
Why not follow the podcast orshare this episode with some of
your fellow vet crew?
Together, we can all be part ofa community that believes that
(27:24):
thriving in VetMed is possibleand actively works to build the
profession that we all deserve.
Now, if you're ready to take thenext step, check out our
upcoming Flourish Academymasterclass to support your
positive leadership skills.
It's linked in the show notes.
Now, back to the culture lab.
So let's shift out of thisresearch summary mode, right?
(27:48):
And let's shift into real lifemode.
Because, like I said a minuteago, one of the things that I
got so excited about this paper,and it made me do a little happy
dance at my desk when I foundit, is the practicality that the
authors bring to the idea ofinterpersonal curiosity.
They are very clear about how topractice it well.
And honestly, in vetmed, we donot need more advice of just
(28:12):
communicate better.
We need guardrails.
We need to know what actuallyhelps.
So the authors essentially giveus three really big ways to put
this into action the right way.
And what I would love to do iswalk through each of them and
hear how this lands for you.
Are you cool with that, Josh?
SPEAKER_00 (28:33):
Oh, heck yeah.
Let's do it.
SPEAKER_02 (28:35):
All right.
So let's jump in to their actionstep number one.
This is one of the strongestmessages in this paper.
And it's the reminder thatcuriosity, it only builds
relational safety when it'sgrounded in affiliative intent.
So, in other words, before youask a question, we really should
be asking ourselves (28:55):
is my goal here to connect with the other
person or to control the otherperson?
Because curiosity meant tounderstand feels way different
than curiosity meant to fix,meant to judge, and meant to
gather information for leverage.
So, Josh, tell us about a timewhen you were on the receiving
(29:18):
end of a question thattechnically sounded curious, but
it didn't feel safe orsupportive at all.
SPEAKER_00 (29:25):
Okay, so I'm thinking back to a job that I
was fired from many, many yearsago.
Many moons passed.
I was actually fired from a job.
Um, part of the reason that Iwas fired, so I don't want to
incriminate anybody um uh orpaint anyone in an overtly
negative light.
So I'm gonna try and be carefulabout how I share all this.
Um, but the place that I workedat, my boss, the general
(29:47):
manager, who was also a partowner, um, his wife also worked
there in a role similar to mine.
We were both kind of likeassistant manager roles.
Uh, however, the responsibilityon my shoulders far outweighed
her level of responsibility.
I had a lot more work that I hadto do.
Um, and one day, as I wasclosing up shop, I uh went to do
(30:08):
some work in the office, and Inoticed that he had left out the
roster of employees, includinghimself and his wife, and their
salaries.
And that's when I found out thathe was paying his wife
significantly more than he waspaying me.
And I was really upset, reallyupset by it, and handled it
incredibly immaturely, likeabsolutely immaturely.
Um, not all that dissimilar fromuh maybe a more uh a worse
(30:33):
version of what you shared inthe story at the beginning of
this episode, right?
Instead of going to him or toher, I went to everyone else,
basically just uh expressing howpissed off I was about it.
Uh, you know, I went to peoplewho technically reported to me,
people who were uh lower in thefood chain, if you will.
And I I kind of complained aboutthis and this and that.
Of course, word got back to himeventually, and he was
understandably upset, and he satme down and he ended up firing
(30:56):
me for all this.
Um, one of the first questionshe asked me was, So I understand
that you're upset with how muchI pay my wife.
Do I have that right?
And that was not actually what Iwas upset about, right?
Like I and I said that to him.
I said, I honestly don't carehow much you pay her.
That is your decision to make.
What's upsetting to me is howmuch more she makes than me,
given my level ofresponsibility.
(31:17):
Um, and then later on in theconversation when he finally
decided, you know, to fire me,the question that he asked me
was, Well, you know, given thissituation and given the
scenario, and given the way thatyou've handled it, you know, so
poorly and how disrespectfulyou've been.
Like he just laid out, like,here are all the bullet points
for why you should be fired.
And then he asked me, What wouldyou have me do?
SPEAKER_03 (31:36):
Oh right.
SPEAKER_00 (31:37):
Like, it's like, yeah, that that's not that's
you're not actually curious whatI think about this, right?
Like you're just trying todefend yourself or what you're
about to do.
Um, so that that those are theexamples that really emerge for
me when you asked me thatquestion.
SPEAKER_02 (31:52):
Um, from the look on your face right now, this many
years later, I can definitelyget a sense for how you received
that question and how all ofthat made you feel.
And curious and heard and seenare not are not in that
category.
SPEAKER_00 (32:11):
No, those are not terms that I would describe how
I was feeling in that moment.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (32:15):
Yep.
Yep.
Well, the second step that theauthors give us fits in with
your experience quite a bitbecause it draws that clear line
between that overt curiosity andthe covert curiosity.
So remember that overt curiosityis direct, respectful,
transparent, where covertcuriosity shows up as gossip,
(32:37):
speculation, side conversations,right?
That asking around that you andI are both guilty of.
And the research, it's reallypretty blunt here that overt
curiosity builds trust.
That only overt curiosity buildstrust.
Now, this one really stood outto me because I've seen it.
(32:57):
And like you, I've experiencedit so many times.
People disguise, leverage,power, condescending behavior
behind that question mark.
And it isn't curiosity, it'shappening out there all the
time.
I used to work with a colleaguethat when training new staff
would often start out hisquestions with the phrase, don't
(33:20):
you think?
He would say things like, Don'tyou think the owner would prefer
to see Dr.
Jones instead of Dr.
Smith?
Or don't you think it would bemore efficient if we sterilized
both packs at the same time?
Talk about condescending.
But that question mark, right?
It made it really, really easyfor him to hide behind.
(33:42):
Josh, why do you think peoplesometimes feel safer asking
these types of covert questions?
SPEAKER_00 (33:50):
Yeah, that's a that's a really great question.
Um, I think that intuitively,especially when we're in a
position of power, so somebodywho's conducting training or
somebody who's a manager, thehospital owner, medical
director, any any of those, anexecutive, right?
I think we sort of likeintuitively know, probably
because we've been told over andover and over again, just be
(34:10):
more curious, communicatebetter, that we're supposed to
be curious.
Like uh, and lately, uh over thelast few years, this word
coaching has really emerged as abuzz term uh, you know, in
management and leadershipcircles within veterinary
medicine.
And so we sort of we intuitivelyknow that we're supposed to be
like good coaches too.
And good coaches ask greatquestions, right?
(34:32):
And so I think all of that stuffsort of it lives in the back of
our mind and so it pressures usto add the question mark to
things.
But the truth is that most ofus, most of the time, have never
really been properly trained ortaught what good quality, overt,
relational building,trust-enhancing questions look
like.
And so we think if we just add aquestion mark, that that's gonna
(34:56):
help.
I also think that sometimes umwe are just plain old using our
power.
You know, I think when that guywas getting ready to fire me, he
was so upset with me.
He was so hurt and felt sodisrespected by my behavior that
he simply could not put himselfin a space of overt curiosity.
Uh, and so he was actually usingthe questions as a weapon to
(35:19):
like prove a point or validatehimself.
So that to me feels like the twobig reasons why we see people
doing that.
SPEAKER_02 (35:26):
I wonder if the pressure to get it done,
whatever it is, right?
Get the person trained, get thisguy out of here, deal with this
situation, have this difficultconversation, along with the
pressure to be the leader, itdoesn't just get really heavy
for people.
(35:47):
And it's just easier to hidebehind that question mark for
the reasons that you mentioned,right?
Because we feel like that's whatwe're supposed to do, and that
we can validate how we handledthe situation by saying, Oh, but
I but I was curious.
I said, Don't you think it wouldbe better if, right?
Like that's a question.
I don't understand what theproblem is.
(36:08):
So I don't know.
SPEAKER_00 (36:10):
I think you're I think you're really onto
something here, Andy.
Uh this is really good.
And I hadn't thought about this.
So I appreciate you adding thisin here.
The time pressure thing, right?
So if I'm if I'm training you asa new technician on our team,
and I'm training you on how weuh, you know, wrap and sterilize
packs, and it it seems justclearly obvious to me that you
(36:31):
want to instead of like doingthem as they come in, you want
to wait till the end of all ofthe surgical procedures to
clean, wrap, and sterilize allthe packs at once.
That's the most efficient way todo it, right?
That that seems obvious to me.
But I also have the pressure oftraining you, training two
veterinary assistants andassisting in surgery all day
today, right?
Like, so I feel like I'm beingpulled in a million different
(36:53):
fucking directions.
And now I have to deal with youwho doesn't obviously get that
you should just wait till theend of the day.
I'm frustrated, I'm you know,I'm feeling the pressure of
that, but I also know in theback of my head I'm supposed to
be a coach and you know, I'msupposed to ask curious
questions.
It would totally make sense thatall of that pressure would drive
me to be like, well, Andy, don'tyou think you should just wait
for two packs before you startoff the autoclave?
SPEAKER_02 (37:15):
Yeah.
unknown (37:15):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (37:16):
Look, I was curious.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (37:18):
Yeah.
Amen.
Amen.
And it's funny because it'strue, right?
Like I've been there.
I've been there.
Yeah.
I've been there.
Ah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (37:25):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (37:26):
And that pressure kind of leads into the third
action step, which is my mostfavorite action step that the
authors brought, because theyemphasize that curiosity becomes
truly powerful when we use itconsistently, that through
constant repetition, we are ableto build our curiosity muscles.
(37:46):
And they remind us to takeadvantage of a variety of
opportunities to get curious andto be intentional about it.
And I really appreciate thisreminder here because it's
saying that we don't have to dothese things perfectly every
single time.
In fact, we don't have to dothem every single time.
(38:09):
We just have to actually do themoccasionally, consistently, in
ways that make sense.
Now, Josh, I know we talk aboutthis a lot, right?
The small, consistent effortsand the power that comes with
them.
And it absolutely applies togenuine curiosity.
So let's carry that concept overinto culture renovation mode
(38:32):
because curiosity isn't helpfulif it just stays this abstract
thing and relational safetydoesn't improve just because we
understand what it is.
So let's take those three bigaction steps and create some
practical, very veterinary waysto turn genuine overt curiosity
into motion right now.
One idea that I get reallyexcited about and actually ties
(38:55):
into that third action step, isthe power that comes with
curiosity through repetition.
And that the safest way to buildthis is often in low stakes
moments, not conflict, notperformance evaluations, not
when emotions are running high,boring everyday interactions.
(39:18):
Because those are the momentswhere curiosity can feel a
little bit less risky, and wecan build that muscle through
repetition.
So here are a couple of simpleways to put this concept into
your daily life.
Make a pact with yourself to askone genuine curious question a
(39:42):
day.
Just one, just one a doablenumber, nothing overwhelming.
It doesn't have to be a bigprofound or poetic question.
It just has to be real.
It might sound something likewhat might work well here.
Why is this important to you?
Tell me more about that.
Or my most favorite question,what do you think?
(40:05):
I love these examples becausethey work in all sorts of
situations.
You can have them locked,loaded, and ready to go as you
build confidence in thisdepartment.
Now, once you've asked thislovely curious question, the
next step is key to actuallylisten without fixing, without
correcting, without rushing pastit.
(40:27):
Just breathe and listen.
This is how curiosity shiftsfrom something that we try to
something that we practice.
And here's my pro tip becausethis can bring some serious
extra magic.
Get curious about what isworking, not just what's broken.
(40:48):
You know, in vetmed, we areincredibly good, right, at
diagnosing the problem.
Hello, that's what we all wentto school for.
That's what we do.
But curiosity, it does not haveto live only in the land of
issues, disease, efficiency.
Curiosity can be aboutstrengths, about wind, about
things that are going right.
Asking what felt good abouttoday?
(41:11):
Or what part of that case workedout better than expected can
really tell people that I seeyou, I notice you, I want to
understand because I care.
Josh, what about you in yourvast, vast veterinary
experience?
What are a couple of specificrealistic ways that veterinary
teams might implement curiosity?
SPEAKER_00 (41:33):
I love that question.
Um, two things that come to mindfor me.
The first one is in training,especially in leadership
training.
Uh, I think like research likethis, papers like this, these
kinds of data points should beuh part of leadership training.
Like we should train leaders onwhat curiosity is, why it's so
important, and how to practiceit, how to actually ask overt
(41:56):
questions, how to set yourselfup to be in an overt state.
Uh, that should be part ofleadership training.
And then it should be ummeasured and assessed.
It should be part of leadershipperformance evaluation, like how
we evaluate the quality andperformance of our managers uh
is in part measured by theircapacity and delivery,
(42:16):
demonstration of overtcuriosity.
So that's the first thing.
Um the second thing that comesto mind for me is um gathering
stories.
So, story gathering, I think, isa really powerful tool, anyway,
for any cultural activity or youknow, workplace experience.
Uh, and you actually teed thisup really great with your
question of like focusing onwhat's working, right?
Um, so getting really curiousabout uh here are things that we
(42:38):
are trying to do here.
Where are we doing it well?
Where are these things alreadyhappening?
Give me an example of a timethat you felt like XYZ was was
truly happening here.
Give me an example of a timewhen you felt like we could have
done just a little more and gotus to XYZ happening, whatever
your cultural value is.
Or I mean, I could actually becuriosity about curiosity.
(43:00):
Tell me about a time whensomeone here made you feel
really heard, right?
Like, you know, and and thenlike actually collecting the
stories, celebrating thosestories, using those stories is
cultural fodder.
I think, I think that's a reallynice way to uh implement
curiosity.
SPEAKER_02 (43:13):
Yeah, those are two fantastic suggestions.
Um, the the one that stood outto me was the value that comes
with educating others in whatthis can look like and giving
them an opportunity to practiceit, right?
Because, like we've saidearlier, this is a skill.
This is something that ifpracticed intentionally, we can
(43:36):
get better at it.
And I, gosh, I just really wishthat I knew of some fantastic
educational opportunities tolearn more about the value of
curiosity and practice them.
Josh, it looks like you mightknow of one.
SPEAKER_00 (43:52):
Tell me more.
Andy, I do, I do.
I have one specifically for youfor this situation.
Wow.
SPEAKER_02 (43:58):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (43:59):
There's there's this.
organization called FlourishVeterinary Consulting and
Flourish Veterinary Consulting.
Yeah, they have a thing calledthe Flourish Academy, um which
is where uh the Flourish Academymascot Percy spends a lot of his
time.
And um the Flourish Academy hasa has a program called the
Certificate in CultivatingPositive Team Communication that
(44:20):
actually teaches and givespeople the opportunity to
practice things like overtcuriosity.
Yeah, it's pretty cool.
You should check it out.
Wow.
SPEAKER_02 (44:28):
You know, I think I've heard that.
And I think one entire module isbased on curiosity where you get
to dive deeper into what thatlooks like and really like play
with it in a safe space so thatwhen you go out into the real
world, it's not so scary.
You get to kind of build thosemuscles in in in a safe, in a
safe, all welcoming gym asopposed to out in the real
(44:50):
world.
Yeah?
SPEAKER_00 (44:51):
Yeah, that's spot on.
And if we had more time, I wouldbe asking you what what most
excites you about that?
But unfortunately we don't havethat.
That would take a lot of timebecause I get excited about a
lot of things.
SPEAKER_02 (45:03):
You know what I also get excited about and is worth
the time to take today?
SPEAKER_00 (45:08):
Does it have anything to do with people in
Florida doing Florida things?
SPEAKER_02 (45:12):
It has everything to do with people in Florida doing
Florida things.
This week's Florida Man headlineis pretty special.
Okay.
Are you ready?
I'm ready for it.
Is everyone sitting down becausethis one is pretty good.
Florida man attempting timetravel crashes into a casket
shop.
SPEAKER_00 (45:31):
I don't even I don't even know what to do with that.
unknown (45:34):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (45:35):
Right, right.
Now I think that it's worthnoting because I read down
through the article which I willabsolutely link in the show
notes because everyone needs alittle bit of this in their
lives that not only was it acasket shop, it was a building
that had a casket shop and taxservices in the same space.
SPEAKER_00 (45:52):
The only two guaranteed life death and taxes.
SPEAKER_01 (45:56):
Exactly exactly oh I was giggling I was giggling this
was a funny one.
SPEAKER_00 (46:01):
Gosh I can't wait to read this I'm dying to know how
this person was attempting timetravel.
Like did they buy a DeLorean?
SPEAKER_02 (46:09):
Right?
Was there a flux capacitor?
I have questions.
SPEAKER_00 (46:14):
Oh that's a good one.
Well done.
Good find.
SPEAKER_01 (46:16):
Uh yeah never never a dull moment in Florida.
SPEAKER_00 (46:19):
Never a dull moment in Florida.
SPEAKER_02 (46:21):
Oh and with that I want to say thanks to all of our
listeners out there for spendingtime with us at the lab.
Of course we will share thelinks to the papers and all the
other things that we mentionedin the show notes.
Be sure to follow us drop areview and let us know what you
think.
And we'll see you next time inthe Veterinary Culture Lab.
Thanks for hanging out with usin the Veterinary Culture Lab,
(46:44):
powered by the science ofworkplace well-being and brought
to you by Flourish VeterinaryConsulting.
If today's episode sparked anidea made you smile or got you
thinking hey I should totallytry that let us know what do you
think?
Be sure to subscribe share andremember a thriving veterinary
(47:05):
culture is possible and youdon't have to build it alone
Welcome to the Veterinary Culture Lab, where
science meets real-worldapplication.
I'm Andy Davison.
SPEAKER_00 (00:12):
And I'm Josh Weisman.
Together, we'll show you anevidence-based blueprint for
renovating culture in yourveterinary team, one episode at
a time.
SPEAKER_02 (00:23):
Curiosity.
Sounds simple, right?
Just ask more questions.
But what if the way that we'rebeing curious is actually
creating distance instead ofconnection?
Today we're digging into thescience behind curiosity and why
how we ask matters just as muchas what we ask.
Hello, Joshua.
(00:43):
How are you today?
SPEAKER_00 (00:44):
I'm good, Andrea.
How are you doing today?
SPEAKER_02 (00:46):
How often do people call you Joshua?
It feels weird.
SPEAKER_00 (00:50):
I don't get called Joshua very often.
I'm sometimes called John, whichI think is hilarious to me.
People will accidentally call meJohn.
I don't know.
I must look like a John.
I had a friend in high school,her name was Tara, and Tara
would call me Oa.
Ooh.
Yeah, she would call me Oabecause everyone called me Josh,
and she felt like the last twoletters must have felt left out.
SPEAKER_01 (01:08):
I love that.
SPEAKER_00 (01:09):
Yeah, so she would call me Oa.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (01:11):
That is really that's good.
That's creative.
I love it.
SPEAKER_00 (01:14):
Are you ever called Andrea, other than like in these
random conversations?
SPEAKER_02 (01:19):
No, not really.
I mean, officially, right?
Like if you're going to thedoctor or if you're boarding the
plane or if you're doingsomething official at the bank,
like official stuff.
Um, but I'm almost always calledAndy.
My big sort of oops is that theyalways spell it wrong.
SPEAKER_01 (01:36):
It's always with the why.
With the why.
No, I'm Andy with an I.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (01:40):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I've totally seen that.
I feel like I've hadconversations with people like
by email or something.
Um, folks who know you, butthey're sending me an email and
they'll refer to you.
And in the email, they theyalmost always it's A N D Y.
Why?
Yep.
It's just not right.
Hey, I I actually have somethingI want to share with you because
I find it very entertaining.
(02:01):
Um, you live in Florida, I livein Colorado.
We have very different weather.
One of the things that you havethat, of course, we don't have
is hurricanes, right?
Yeah.
We yeah, we don't get hurricanesin Colorado.
Sometimes we get like tornadoes,obviously.
SPEAKER_02 (02:14):
Don't worry if you did.
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (02:16):
Seriously.
Um a few years back, I don'tknow if you remember this.
I'm trying to remember exactlywhen it was, maybe four-ish
years ago, something like this.
It made national news.
So so I ask people, there was amassive winter windstorm.
So what will happen in Coloradosometimes is like we'll get
surprisingly on the front range,it most people don't expect
this.
They think of Colorado, theythink of winter, they think of
(02:36):
lots of snow and skiing.
And that happens in themountains, but down here on the
front range, which is thewestern plains in the center of
the country, right?
Um, it's not unusual for us tonot really get any
precipitation, snow, rain,anything, until January or
February.
And so it gets really dry.
And then sometimes we'll havethese fronts move through where
it's super windy, these crazywinds that come off of the
(02:59):
mountains, and it might be warmand it's really dry.
And so this is fire danger.
And there was a big fire.
I don't know if you rememberthis.
It was a fire like right outsideof Boulder, and it was unusual
for a couple of reasons.
First of all, because ithappened in the boulder area.
Most of the fires that we havein Colorado are like in the
mountains, but also it was superwindy, and the fire traveled
very, very quickly uh acrossinto like the Louisville area,
(03:22):
um, which is fairly denselypopulated, and I think something
like 1,100 homes burned.
Do you remember this?
Do you recall this at all?
SPEAKER_02 (03:29):
Oh, very vaguely, yes.
SPEAKER_00 (03:30):
Yeah, it was always devastating.
It was bad.
It was really devastating, itwas horrific.
Where we live, which is probablylike I don't know, 20, 25 miles
northeast of there, like wecould see it from here.
It was it was really bad, it wasterrifying.
Um, it turned out afterwardsthat one of the utilities, one
of the major providers ofelectricity, was kind of at
(03:52):
fault for the reason that thefire started.
Well, this week in Colorado,there's these big windstorms
coming through.
There was one here on Wednesday,and there's one that's
supposedly coming through today.
And so the um the utilities havelike preemptively shut in some
of these neighborhoods.
Yeah.
My my wife's like one of herfriends, like, no power at her
(04:14):
house for a few hours.
Just like, we're just we're notscrewing around, we're not gonna
pay out you know, millions orbillions of dollars again.
We're just gonna cut off power.
But what's funny to me is theway that they've like sort of
justified it is like thelanguage is like it's gonna be
hundred mile an hour winds, it'shurricane force winds.
And I'm like, we're in Colorado.
It's not, I mean, I get it, yes,it's the same speed, but it's
(04:38):
gusts and it's not a hurricane.
I just think it's really funnythat they're describing it as
hurricane force winds, hurricaneforce winds.
SPEAKER_01 (04:46):
The hurricanes of Colorado.
SPEAKER_00 (04:48):
Yeah, the hurricanes of Colorado is very, it's very
funny.
Yeah, it's pretty funny.
It's pretty wild.
The weather that we get heresometimes is pretty wild.
So we'll see, we'll see whathappens today.
Knock on wood, it's not like itwas a few years ago.
SPEAKER_02 (05:01):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
No, the your weather isfascinating.
I never would have expected theColorado weather to be so
versatile, I think is the wordI'll use.
Because I I'm I'm that personthat's like, oh, it snows there.
Cool.
SPEAKER_00 (05:14):
Yeah, and that's where it stops.
SPEAKER_02 (05:15):
But no.
SPEAKER_00 (05:16):
Today is uh December 19th that we are recording this,
and it is supposed to be almost70 degrees today.
SPEAKER_02 (05:24):
Oh, that's lovely.
SPEAKER_00 (05:26):
Yeah, Christmas Day is supposed to be clear and 67.
Like that doesn't that's notwhat you think of when you think
of Colorado.
SPEAKER_01 (05:33):
Not at all.
Not at all.
SPEAKER_00 (05:34):
Yep, nope.
Speaking of Christmas, I Irealized recently that I have a
new superpower.
Oh, dude Yeah, I can actuallysee inside of wrapped presents.
Like with for the holidays, youknow, like my wife is like
wrapping presents, you know, forme, for other people, this and
that.
I don't have to be there whenshe wraps it.
Like she she shows me thewrapped present, I can see
(05:56):
inside it.
Okay.
It's a gift.
SPEAKER_02 (05:58):
Does she roll her eyes at you when you do stuff
like that too?
SPEAKER_00 (06:01):
She doesn't even bother rolling her eyes.
That's a waste of her time andenergy.
SPEAKER_01 (06:05):
Oh, it's just another day with Josh.
SPEAKER_00 (06:08):
It's just another day with Josh.
I'm so sorry.
Ooh.
Yeah, thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (06:12):
Another day with ooh.
Oh, that's funny.
That's funny.
SPEAKER_02 (06:15):
Well, Josh, I would actually like to share a story
with you.
And while it isn't weatherrelated, I think it's something
that you and the listeners arereally going to kind of
appreciate and relate to.
And this story, this moment, itended up being really
influential on how I think aboutcuriosity, leadership, and
thriving at work.
(06:36):
Now, this story comes from amoment back in my time at a
booming and bustling hospital.
I remember the day we had avariety of patients that needed
everything from a physical examto new fluid bags every two
hours.
It was busy, it was loud, it wasbarely controlled chaos.
Now, one of the residents that Iworked with pretty normally was
(06:58):
chatty.
She was helpful, you know, thekind of person that smiles at
you when you walk by, the onethat always checks in with the
team right before they roll uptheir sleeves to dig in and get
shit done.
But this day, it was different.
When I arrived at the hospital,they were already there, elbows
deep into the shift, head down,blinders on, no jokes, no
(07:19):
smiles, just quiet focus.
Now I noticed this immediately.
And this is the part that I'mnot super proud of because
instead of getting genuinelycurious with her, I allowed my
brain to start creating reasonsfor why she was so quietly
focused.
(07:40):
I totally started assuming.
Or was she, God forbid, mad atme?
And instead of asking them, Idid exactly what so many of us
do.
I asked around quiet questions,whispered in the corner of the
(08:04):
pharmacy.
Hey, Dr.
Sunshine seems a bit off today.
Do you know what's going on withthem?
And the more I did that, themore my assumptions hardened,
even though I had zero actualinformation.
Eventually, I did.
I found a quiet moment away fromthe ringing phones and the
beeping pumps to actually checkin with her directly.
(08:26):
And I will never ever forgetthis part.
Because when I finally asked,genuinely asked, what was going
on, the answer was absolutelynothing like what I assumed.
Not even close.
And in that moment, it reallyhit me how powerful curiosity
actually is and how dangerous itcan be if we do it sideways.
(08:50):
There were two versions ofcuriosity available to me that
day.
One created distance andmisunderstanding, and the other
created a connection with trustand support.
That experience really cementedsomething that I truly and
firmly believe pretty darndeeply that genuine curiosity is
(09:11):
the foundation of thriving.
Because when we're truly curiouswith ourselves and with others,
we invite perspective,understanding, and connection,
all of which support productiverelationships that can
contribute to our thriving,right?
In ways that are pretty darnmagical.
So, Josh, have you ever realizedthat a story that you told
(09:34):
yourself about someone orsomething was completely wrong
once you actually asked aboutit?
SPEAKER_00 (09:40):
Um I think the question you want to ask is,
Josh, in the last 24 hours, haveyou ever realized that?
Yeah.
Uh I I feel like this happensconstantly, right?
Like the stories in our head andwhen we actually collect
real-world data and how thatoften misaligns with the stories
in our head.
Uh, but an example that I'mthinking of as I was listening
to you describe this experienceat work takes me back, oh gosh,
(10:04):
um 15, 16 years ago, somethinglike that.
At a hospital, I was themanaging partner and I was the
hospital director.
And uh, we had a client that wasdropping off her cat for a
pretty extensive dentalprocedure.
And I remember I was sittingback in the office, and one of
the veterinarians there cameback and said, Hey, just so you
know, um, Mrs.
Smith is gonna need to talk toyou when she picks up Fluffy
(10:26):
because she's probably gonnaneed a payment plan.
She's you know, really upsetabout the cost and you know, she
can't afford it and like allthese things, right?
All these things that I laterrealized were assumptions based
on a very, very limitedinteraction.
So at the end of the day, whenit came to discharge for this
patient, um, the vet likereminded me, she was like super
nervous about this client comingback in, right?
(10:48):
So just like you know, dischargeis coming, I need you up there.
Uh and so I, you know, I went upand I met with Mrs.
Smith and, you know, I askedher.
I said, Hey, my understanding isthat you're curious about a
payment plan for uh Fluffy'sprocedure today.
She says, Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'dlove to hear more about that.
So I got out our document, Iwalked her through it.
It was like an agreement, youknow, here are the
specifications.
(11:09):
Um, here's what we ask you tosign, here's the options we have
for dividing out the payment,um, here's the administration
fee, and then here's theinterest that we charge on any
unpaid portion.
And she looked at me and shesaid, Oh, wait, there's an
there's extra fees.
I thought that it was just likea, you know, to break up payment
over time.
And of course, that like withthe assumptions that I had about
(11:32):
her, based on the assumptionsthat my partner had about her,
the immediate story in my headwas like, Oh, this person's
gonna be a real pain in the ass.
They don't want to pay.
They're probably one of thosepeople that thinks that we
overcharge for things and thisand that.
I said, Yeah, you know, I'mreally sorry.
We're not like a standard bank.
Um, you know, I can't offer youthat kind of thing.
Like, this is this is what wecan offer.
What would you like to do?
(11:53):
And she, no joke, Andy, reachedinto her pocket and pulled out,
I shit you not, a giant wad ofhundred dollar bills.
Like rolled up like I was, Iknow.
I was like, uh, I don't knowwhat you do for a living.
It's different than what I do.
Um, and she like she sheunfolded it and she just pulled
out 11 of them or whatever itwas for this procedure and just
(12:15):
paid for it in cash.
And I was like shocked, likereally shocked.
And I remember in the momentjust like being like slackjawed,
like, I don't even know what'shappening here.
But somehow I had thewherewithal to ask her.
I said, you know, I gotta behonest with you, I'm a little
bit surprised.
I thought that you like weregonna have issues paying this
bill, but here you are payingfor it in full in cash.
(12:36):
And she said, Yeah, it was neverreally about the bill for me.
And she described some things tome that were going on in her
life.
She was juggling finances, andshe figured if there was a way
to like spread this out overtime instead of pay the whole
thing up front, that wouldactually benefit her uh in other
areas of her life.
She was she had no problem withwhat we charged, she was
completely happy with the levelof care.
(12:56):
This was a client who was gonnacome back.
Like all of these assumptionskind of went out the door simply
because I asked.
This is what I'm seeing.
This is what I kind of toldmyself in my head, help me
understand the gap here.
And she explained the gap.
SPEAKER_02 (13:12):
Yeah.
It sounds like that extraquestion, right?
That deeper, curious questionwas really helpful to you and
her.
And I'd I would love to hearwhat gave you the courage to go
there instead of just sittingwith your assumption or in
realizing that your assumptionmaybe wasn't right and just
(13:33):
putting your tail between yourlegs and like scooting off to
the office with your wad ofhundred dollar bills.
SPEAKER_00 (13:38):
Yeah, that's a great question.
Um, I am cherry picking a story,obviously, for the purpose of
this episode uh that displays meusing curiosity in a moment like
that.
I don't know how many times inmy life I failed to do that.
I didn't have the courage or theopenness to ask that question.
And that's really, I think, whatwas happening there for me in
(13:58):
that moment.
I don't actually view it ascourage.
I don't think I was beingcourageous.
I think I was just downrightcurious.
Like I was very surprised.
And in that moment, instead ofwhat I've probably done a
hundred times in my life, whichis like just hold on to a new
story, never get any real dataabout it.
(14:19):
Like it would have been reallyeasy for me to walk away from
that and be like, well, thenwhat the hell was she
complaining about in the firstplace?
Clearly, this person can affordthis stuff.
What is wrong with her?
Gosh, I wonder where all thatcash came from, right?
Like, you know, like I couldhave just taken that and walked
away with that.
But for some reason, in thatmoment, maybe it was the
surprise of it all.
I don't know.
But it it allowed me to have amoment of openness, which led to
(14:43):
curiosity.
And and that curiosity ended upbeing like, okay, I gotta be
honest with you, this is notwhat I expected.
Like, I really just wanted toknow.
This is weird, what is going onhere?
And allowing her the space to dothat, sons judgment.
I think that was the other thingtoo.
Like, I wasn't being judgmental,like I really just wanted to
(15:04):
understand.
Um, and that gave her theopportunity to, she was very
matter-of-fact about it.
Like, she was also notjudgmental or defensive.
She was just like, Oh, yeah, Ijust figured if there was a way
for me to spread this out, thatit would be better for me.
But there isn't, so I'm justgonna pay for it.
SPEAKER_02 (15:19):
Gosh, yeah.
Wow.
How cool that you were both ableto walk away from that
experience, right, withoutjudging one another and
understanding more about whereeach person came from.
That's a great story.
And it leads into the paper thatI've brought to the lab today
perfectly, because this paper,it's fresh, right?
It was published back in 2024 inFrontiers in Psychology.
(15:43):
And it was written by twopeople, one of which I'm going
to screw up their name royally,and I apologize in advance.
But the authors of this articleare Heather Lawford and here we
go, Melanie Latondra We're gonnago.
And yeah, I'm gonna go withthat.
I uh I'm excited about thisarticle though, and I'm grateful
(16:05):
to the authors because when Icame across it, I couldn't stop
grinning and I couldn't downloadit fast enough because the title
alone is really on brand for thethings that we care about here
at Flourish.
The title of this paper isInterpersonal Curiosity as a
tool to foster safe relationalspaces, which, yeah, may sound a
(16:26):
little bit academic at firstglance.
But once you dig in, you realizethat this paper is actually
talking about somethingincredibly human and incredibly
relevant to veterinary teams?
Because at its core, this paperasks a deceptively simple
question.
Can curiosity about other peoplehelp create safer, more
(16:48):
trusting, more connectedrelationships?
And if so, what kind ofcuriosity actually helps?
And what kind quietly makesthings worse?
Now, here's an important thingto name right up front, because
this paper is actually not asingle experiment.
And it's not even ameta-analysis that crunches
(17:09):
numbers and data.
This paper is what we call anarrative literature review,
which means the authors went outand peer-reviewed studies across
multiple disciplines.
In this case, they pulled 23studies from psychology,
healthcare, education,negotiation, crisis management,
right?
And then pulled all of thosefindings together, organized and
(17:32):
advanced them into a coherentand actionable argument about
how interpersonal curiosityactually functions in real
relationships.
So basically the authors wereasking two big questions.
How does interpersonal curiositycreate relational safety?
And how do we turn science intosomething that real humans can
(17:56):
actually do?
That translation from researchinto real life is the thing that
got me so excited about thispaper and why it felt like a
total no-brainer to bring itinto the lab.
Because this is not theory fortheory's sake.
This is what does sciencecollectively tell us and how do
we actually use it?
Cool, right?
SPEAKER_00 (18:16):
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02 (18:18):
So let's talk first about what they mean by
interpersonal curiosity, becausethis is not about being nosy and
it's definitely not about askingmore questions just for the sake
of asking them.
The authors define interpersonalcuriosity as the genuine desire
to understand other people,their experiences, emotions,
perspectives, stories.
(18:39):
And they make a pretty importantdistinction early on.
They say that curiosity can showup for us in two ways as a state
or something momentary,intentional, something that we
choose in a specificinteraction, or as a trait,
which is a more stable habit, away that someone consistently
(19:00):
shows up to relationships overtime.
That distinction, Josh, itmatters because it means that
curiosity is not a personalitytrait.
It's not something that you haveor don't have.
It's a skill, something that canbe practiced, shaped, and
strengthened.
Now, here's where the paper getsinteresting and kind of relevant
(19:21):
to veterinary culture becausethe authors show us that
curiosity is not automaticallygood.
And I feel like this is such animportant counterpoint because
we hear just be curious, thrownaround all the time in
leadership and well-beingspaces.
This paper reminds us to slowyour role because curiosity can
(19:44):
be expressed in two ways, inovert ways and in covert ways.
Now, overt ways are the thingsthat we want more of.
It's open, respectful,empathetic, connection-focused
curiosity.
It sounds a lot like help meunderstand what this has been
like for you.
What am I missing here?
(20:06):
And you know, I might be wrong,but I'm curious to hear more
about how you're seeing this.
Overt curiosity builds trust.
It increases psychologicalsafety and it helps people feel
seen instead of scrutinized.
But then there is covertcuriosity.
Covert curiosity is where thingscan quietly go sideways because
(20:30):
that type of curiosity shows upas gossip, snooping,
speculating, right?
Assuming instead of asking, andasking questions that are more
about control than aboutunderstanding.
And the research shows us thatcovert curiosity, especially
when driven by anxiety, powerimbalance, lack of trust,
(20:53):
actually erodes relationalsafety instead of building it
up.
Which, if you've ever worked ina veterinary clinic, you're
probably quietly nodding yourhead right now.
Because curiosity in vetmed, itcan feel amazing or it can feel
like a spotlight that nobodyasked for.
Now, another major contributionof this paper is how clearly it
connects interpersonal curiosityto relational safety.
(21:17):
The authors define relationalsafe spaces as environments
where people feel respected,emotionally secure, and free to
speak honestly.
Now, Josh, this paper it usesthe term relational safety
rather than psychologicalsafety.
And this is intentional.
Relational safety is whathappens in individual
(21:40):
interactions.
Psychological safety is whatemerges when enough of those
interactions consistently feelsafe over time.
So think of it this wayrelational safety is the
ingredient, and psychologicalsafety is the cultural cake that
is a result of those ingredientsbeing.
(22:00):
Constantly added to the mixingbowl.
SPEAKER_00 (22:03):
You said cake.
SPEAKER_02 (22:04):
Cake.
I know.
SPEAKER_00 (22:06):
And now now I crave cake.
unknown (22:08):
Cake.
SPEAKER_02 (22:09):
All the cake, any cake, any time, cake for
breakfast.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (22:13):
Yes, I I want me some psychological safety cake.
SPEAKER_02 (22:16):
Oh, okay.
What does psychological safetycake taste like?
SPEAKER_00 (22:21):
Delicious.
SPEAKER_02 (22:22):
Yes.
I'm on board with that.
Okay.
So we don't get off on cake fortoo long.
The 23 studies that theseauthors looked at, reviewed, and
kind of shared with us revealeda consistent pattern.
That when interpersonalcuriosity is expressed overtly
and empathetically, it actuallystrengthens trust.
(22:44):
It supports conflict repair andit improves learning and
collaboration.
In other words, curious, inother words, curiosity helps
human teams stay human whenthings get hard.
It helps them tolerateuncertainty without becoming
(23:04):
defensive.
And I love it because theauthors, they didn't stop here.
They actually took it one stepfurther.
And they talked about howcuriosity can become cultural.
They explained that whilecuriosity can start as a state,
right?
That moment-to-moment choice,that when it's repeated and
practiced, that it can turn intoa trait, which means curiosity
(23:29):
is modeled in our cultures.
It can be rewarded and it canbecome normalized in leadership
and peer interactions.
The more it becomes how we dothings around here, quote
fingers, is that magical steptowards culture renovation.
So, no, this is not aboutteaching people to ask better
(23:51):
questions one.
This is about shaping relationalhabits that make psychological
safety more likely over time.
So, to zoom out for just asecond, the paper ultimately
gives us a framework.
It helps us understand whycuriosity can be such a powerful
cultural tool when it helpsrelationships thrive and when it
(24:13):
quietly causes harm.
And it gives leaders, teams, andhumans in hard jobs, hello,
vetmed, a way to practicecuriosity without weaponizing
it, which feels very importantfor the conversation, right?
So, Josh, after sitting with allof this science around curiosity
(24:34):
and relationships, I'm curious,where have you seen curiosity,
good or bad, shape the cultureof a team in a way that really
stuck with you?
SPEAKER_00 (24:43):
Hmm.
I'm thinking of so manyexamples.
I don't want to share all ofthem all at once because we'll
be here for hours.
Um, okay, so a recent one that Ihad, which I think is really
heavily related to the ethos ofthis paper and this idea of
relational safety andcultivating psychological safety
over time.
I was having a conversation witha technician training manager, a
(25:04):
nurse who works in a anemergency practice, and uh they
had a drug dose error.
They had a technician who hadmiscalculated a drug dose,
right?
And we were talking about like,okay, so what are you gonna do
with this?
Like, how are you gonna approachthis?
And her her response wassomething along the lines of,
well, you know, I'd I'd love tosit down and coach this person.
I said, Okay, so what is what iscoaching look like for you?
(25:26):
What will you say?
And and she said, Well, youknow, I'm I I'm I'm curious
about like why they made themistake and what training they
need to make sure that theydon't make the mistake again,
right?
I said, Okay, well, how will youask those questions?
Well, I'll just ask them, like,you know, what do you think
happened here?
Why did you make this mistake?
And what kind of training do youthink you need to make sure you
(25:47):
don't make the mistake again?
And Andy, I can see you kind ofsmirking and nodding.
And so, so I mean, does thatdoes that sound to you like a an
overt or covert form ofcuriosity?
SPEAKER_02 (25:58):
Um, for me, that would definitely land in covert.
SPEAKER_00 (26:00):
Right, yeah, because it sort of implies like there is
something wrong with you.
You are doing something wrong.
You need to write the assumptionis that you are the problem.
And and so I that's what I triedto convey to her.
And I said, you know, what wouldbe ways that we could ask this
with more openness, with more,um, I didn't use the language at
the time because I hadn't heardabout this paper yet, but with
more overt curiosity.
(26:20):
And where we kind of landed wasthat we could ask the question
of like, what got in the way ofyou doing this right?
SPEAKER_03 (26:26):
Right?
SPEAKER_00 (26:27):
Which is that could be anything.
That could be, oh, I actuallydidn't know what I was doing,
but that could also be um therewere two technicians missing
that day, and I was stillexpected to manage the caseload
of three people by myself,right?
So that is an example of how Ithink curiosity shows up in our
day-to-day interactions.
Like this is just a singularinteraction that happens so
(26:48):
frequently in hospitals, but wedon't take the time to really
think about okay, how I'mapproaching my use of curiosity
with this person may notactually be beneficial coaching,
it may be setting them up foruh, you know, for shame.
SPEAKER_02 (27:02):
Mm-hmm.
Yep.
That spotlight that nobody askedfor.
There it is.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Well, hello there.
If this conversation is landingwith you, I'm willing to bet
you're not alone.
Why not follow the podcast orshare this episode with some of
your fellow vet crew?
Together, we can all be part ofa community that believes that
(27:24):
thriving in VetMed is possibleand actively works to build the
profession that we all deserve.
Now, if you're ready to take thenext step, check out our
upcoming Flourish Academymasterclass to support your
positive leadership skills.
It's linked in the show notes.
Now, back to the culture lab.
So let's shift out of thisresearch summary mode, right?
(27:48):
And let's shift into real lifemode.
Because, like I said a minuteago, one of the things that I
got so excited about this paper,and it made me do a little happy
dance at my desk when I foundit, is the practicality that the
authors bring to the idea ofinterpersonal curiosity.
They are very clear about how topractice it well.
And honestly, in vetmed, we donot need more advice of just
(28:12):
communicate better.
We need guardrails.
We need to know what actuallyhelps.
So the authors essentially giveus three really big ways to put
this into action the right way.
And what I would love to do iswalk through each of them and
hear how this lands for you.
Are you cool with that, Josh?
SPEAKER_00 (28:33):
Oh, heck yeah.
Let's do it.
SPEAKER_02 (28:35):
All right.
So let's jump in to their actionstep number one.
This is one of the strongestmessages in this paper.
And it's the reminder thatcuriosity, it only builds
relational safety when it'sgrounded in affiliative intent.
So, in other words, before youask a question, we really should
be asking ourselves (28:55):
is my goal here to connect with the other
person or to control the otherperson?
Because curiosity meant tounderstand feels way different
than curiosity meant to fix,meant to judge, and meant to
gather information for leverage.
So, Josh, tell us about a timewhen you were on the receiving
(29:18):
end of a question thattechnically sounded curious, but
it didn't feel safe orsupportive at all.
SPEAKER_00 (29:25):
Okay, so I'm thinking back to a job that I
was fired from many, many yearsago.
Many moons passed.
I was actually fired from a job.
Um, part of the reason that Iwas fired, so I don't want to
incriminate anybody um uh orpaint anyone in an overtly
negative light.
So I'm gonna try and be carefulabout how I share all this.
Um, but the place that I workedat, my boss, the general
(29:47):
manager, who was also a partowner, um, his wife also worked
there in a role similar to mine.
We were both kind of likeassistant manager roles.
Uh, however, the responsibilityon my shoulders far outweighed
her level of responsibility.
I had a lot more work that I hadto do.
Um, and one day, as I wasclosing up shop, I uh went to do
(30:08):
some work in the office, and Inoticed that he had left out the
roster of employees, includinghimself and his wife, and their
salaries.
And that's when I found out thathe was paying his wife
significantly more than he waspaying me.
And I was really upset, reallyupset by it, and handled it
incredibly immaturely, likeabsolutely immaturely.
Um, not all that dissimilar fromuh maybe a more uh a worse
(30:33):
version of what you shared inthe story at the beginning of
this episode, right?
Instead of going to him or toher, I went to everyone else,
basically just uh expressing howpissed off I was about it.
Uh, you know, I went to peoplewho technically reported to me,
people who were uh lower in thefood chain, if you will.
And I I kind of complained aboutthis and this and that.
Of course, word got back to himeventually, and he was
understandably upset, and he satme down and he ended up firing
(30:56):
me for all this.
Um, one of the first questionshe asked me was, So I understand
that you're upset with how muchI pay my wife.
Do I have that right?
And that was not actually what Iwas upset about, right?
Like I and I said that to him.
I said, I honestly don't carehow much you pay her.
That is your decision to make.
What's upsetting to me is howmuch more she makes than me,
given my level ofresponsibility.
(31:17):
Um, and then later on in theconversation when he finally
decided, you know, to fire me,the question that he asked me
was, Well, you know, given thissituation and given the
scenario, and given the way thatyou've handled it, you know, so
poorly and how disrespectfulyou've been.
Like he just laid out, like,here are all the bullet points
for why you should be fired.
And then he asked me, What wouldyou have me do?
SPEAKER_03 (31:36):
Oh right.
SPEAKER_00 (31:37):
Like, it's like, yeah, that that's not that's
you're not actually curious whatI think about this, right?
Like you're just trying todefend yourself or what you're
about to do.
Um, so that that those are theexamples that really emerge for
me when you asked me thatquestion.
SPEAKER_02 (31:52):
Um, from the look on your face right now, this many
years later, I can definitelyget a sense for how you received
that question and how all ofthat made you feel.
And curious and heard and seenare not are not in that
category.
SPEAKER_00 (32:11):
No, those are not terms that I would describe how
I was feeling in that moment.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (32:15):
Yep.
Yep.
Well, the second step that theauthors give us fits in with
your experience quite a bitbecause it draws that clear line
between that overt curiosity andthe covert curiosity.
So remember that overt curiosityis direct, respectful,
transparent, where covertcuriosity shows up as gossip,
(32:37):
speculation, side conversations,right?
That asking around that you andI are both guilty of.
And the research, it's reallypretty blunt here that overt
curiosity builds trust.
That only overt curiosity buildstrust.
Now, this one really stood outto me because I've seen it.
(32:57):
And like you, I've experiencedit so many times.
People disguise, leverage,power, condescending behavior
behind that question mark.
And it isn't curiosity, it'shappening out there all the
time.
I used to work with a colleaguethat when training new staff
would often start out hisquestions with the phrase, don't
(33:20):
you think?
He would say things like, Don'tyou think the owner would prefer
to see Dr.
Jones instead of Dr.
Smith?
Or don't you think it would bemore efficient if we sterilized
both packs at the same time?
Talk about condescending.
But that question mark, right?
It made it really, really easyfor him to hide behind.
(33:42):
Josh, why do you think peoplesometimes feel safer asking
these types of covert questions?
SPEAKER_00 (33:50):
Yeah, that's a that's a really great question.
Um, I think that intuitively,especially when we're in a
position of power, so somebodywho's conducting training or
somebody who's a manager, thehospital owner, medical
director, any any of those, anexecutive, right?
I think we sort of likeintuitively know, probably
because we've been told over andover and over again, just be
(34:10):
more curious, communicatebetter, that we're supposed to
be curious.
Like uh, and lately, uh over thelast few years, this word
coaching has really emerged as abuzz term uh, you know, in
management and leadershipcircles within veterinary
medicine.
And so we sort of we intuitivelyknow that we're supposed to be
like good coaches too.
And good coaches ask greatquestions, right?
(34:32):
And so I think all of that stuffsort of it lives in the back of
our mind and so it pressures usto add the question mark to
things.
But the truth is that most ofus, most of the time, have never
really been properly trained ortaught what good quality, overt,
relational building,trust-enhancing questions look
like.
And so we think if we just add aquestion mark, that that's gonna
(34:56):
help.
I also think that sometimes umwe are just plain old using our
power.
You know, I think when that guywas getting ready to fire me, he
was so upset with me.
He was so hurt and felt sodisrespected by my behavior that
he simply could not put himselfin a space of overt curiosity.
Uh, and so he was actually usingthe questions as a weapon to
(35:19):
like prove a point or validatehimself.
So that to me feels like the twobig reasons why we see people
doing that.
SPEAKER_02 (35:26):
I wonder if the pressure to get it done,
whatever it is, right?
Get the person trained, get thisguy out of here, deal with this
situation, have this difficultconversation, along with the
pressure to be the leader, itdoesn't just get really heavy
for people.
(35:47):
And it's just easier to hidebehind that question mark for
the reasons that you mentioned,right?
Because we feel like that's whatwe're supposed to do, and that
we can validate how we handledthe situation by saying, Oh, but
I but I was curious.
I said, Don't you think it wouldbe better if, right?
Like that's a question.
I don't understand what theproblem is.
(36:08):
So I don't know.
SPEAKER_00 (36:10):
I think you're I think you're really onto
something here, Andy.
Uh this is really good.
And I hadn't thought about this.
So I appreciate you adding thisin here.
The time pressure thing, right?
So if I'm if I'm training you asa new technician on our team,
and I'm training you on how weuh, you know, wrap and sterilize
packs, and it it seems justclearly obvious to me that you
(36:31):
want to instead of like doingthem as they come in, you want
to wait till the end of all ofthe surgical procedures to
clean, wrap, and sterilize allthe packs at once.
That's the most efficient way todo it, right?
That that seems obvious to me.
But I also have the pressure oftraining you, training two
veterinary assistants andassisting in surgery all day
today, right?
Like, so I feel like I'm beingpulled in a million different
(36:53):
fucking directions.
And now I have to deal with youwho doesn't obviously get that
you should just wait till theend of the day.
I'm frustrated, I'm you know,I'm feeling the pressure of
that, but I also know in theback of my head I'm supposed to
be a coach and you know, I'msupposed to ask curious
questions.
It would totally make sense thatall of that pressure would drive
me to be like, well, Andy, don'tyou think you should just wait
for two packs before you startoff the autoclave?
SPEAKER_02 (37:15):
Yeah.
unknown (37:15):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (37:16):
Look, I was curious.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (37:18):
Yeah.
Amen.
Amen.
And it's funny because it'strue, right?
Like I've been there.
I've been there.
Yeah.
I've been there.
Ah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (37:25):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (37:26):
And that pressure kind of leads into the third
action step, which is my mostfavorite action step that the
authors brought, because theyemphasize that curiosity becomes
truly powerful when we use itconsistently, that through
constant repetition, we are ableto build our curiosity muscles.
(37:46):
And they remind us to takeadvantage of a variety of
opportunities to get curious andto be intentional about it.
And I really appreciate thisreminder here because it's
saying that we don't have to dothese things perfectly every
single time.
In fact, we don't have to dothem every single time.
(38:09):
We just have to actually do themoccasionally, consistently, in
ways that make sense.
Now, Josh, I know we talk aboutthis a lot, right?
The small, consistent effortsand the power that comes with
them.
And it absolutely applies togenuine curiosity.
So let's carry that concept overinto culture renovation mode
(38:32):
because curiosity isn't helpfulif it just stays this abstract
thing and relational safetydoesn't improve just because we
understand what it is.
So let's take those three bigaction steps and create some
practical, very veterinary waysto turn genuine overt curiosity
into motion right now.
One idea that I get reallyexcited about and actually ties
(38:55):
into that third action step, isthe power that comes with
curiosity through repetition.
And that the safest way to buildthis is often in low stakes
moments, not conflict, notperformance evaluations, not
when emotions are running high,boring everyday interactions.
(39:18):
Because those are the momentswhere curiosity can feel a
little bit less risky, and wecan build that muscle through
repetition.
So here are a couple of simpleways to put this concept into
your daily life.
Make a pact with yourself to askone genuine curious question a
(39:42):
day.
Just one, just one a doablenumber, nothing overwhelming.
It doesn't have to be a bigprofound or poetic question.
It just has to be real.
It might sound something likewhat might work well here.
Why is this important to you?
Tell me more about that.
Or my most favorite question,what do you think?
(40:05):
I love these examples becausethey work in all sorts of
situations.
You can have them locked,loaded, and ready to go as you
build confidence in thisdepartment.
Now, once you've asked thislovely curious question, the
next step is key to actuallylisten without fixing, without
correcting, without rushing pastit.
(40:27):
Just breathe and listen.
This is how curiosity shiftsfrom something that we try to
something that we practice.
And here's my pro tip becausethis can bring some serious
extra magic.
Get curious about what isworking, not just what's broken.
(40:48):
You know, in vetmed, we areincredibly good, right, at
diagnosing the problem.
Hello, that's what we all wentto school for.
That's what we do.
But curiosity, it does not haveto live only in the land of
issues, disease, efficiency.
Curiosity can be aboutstrengths, about wind, about
things that are going right.
Asking what felt good abouttoday?
(41:11):
Or what part of that case workedout better than expected can
really tell people that I seeyou, I notice you, I want to
understand because I care.
Josh, what about you in yourvast, vast veterinary
experience?
What are a couple of specificrealistic ways that veterinary
teams might implement curiosity?
SPEAKER_00 (41:33):
I love that question.
Um, two things that come to mindfor me.
The first one is in training,especially in leadership
training.
Uh, I think like research likethis, papers like this, these
kinds of data points should beuh part of leadership training.
Like we should train leaders onwhat curiosity is, why it's so
important, and how to practiceit, how to actually ask overt
(41:56):
questions, how to set yourselfup to be in an overt state.
Uh, that should be part ofleadership training.
And then it should be ummeasured and assessed.
It should be part of leadershipperformance evaluation, like how
we evaluate the quality andperformance of our managers uh
is in part measured by theircapacity and delivery,
(42:16):
demonstration of overtcuriosity.
So that's the first thing.
Um the second thing that comesto mind for me is um gathering
stories.
So, story gathering, I think, isa really powerful tool, anyway,
for any cultural activity or youknow, workplace experience.
Uh, and you actually teed thisup really great with your
question of like focusing onwhat's working, right?
Um, so getting really curiousabout uh here are things that we
(42:38):
are trying to do here.
Where are we doing it well?
Where are these things alreadyhappening?
Give me an example of a timethat you felt like XYZ was was
truly happening here.
Give me an example of a timewhen you felt like we could have
done just a little more and gotus to XYZ happening, whatever
your cultural value is.
Or I mean, I could actually becuriosity about curiosity.
(43:00):
Tell me about a time whensomeone here made you feel
really heard, right?
Like, you know, and and thenlike actually collecting the
stories, celebrating thosestories, using those stories is
cultural fodder.
I think, I think that's a reallynice way to uh implement
curiosity.
SPEAKER_02 (43:13):
Yeah, those are two fantastic suggestions.
Um, the the one that stood outto me was the value that comes
with educating others in whatthis can look like and giving
them an opportunity to practiceit, right?
Because, like we've saidearlier, this is a skill.
This is something that ifpracticed intentionally, we can
(43:36):
get better at it.
And I, gosh, I just really wishthat I knew of some fantastic
educational opportunities tolearn more about the value of
curiosity and practice them.
Josh, it looks like you mightknow of one.
SPEAKER_00 (43:52):
Tell me more.
Andy, I do, I do.
I have one specifically for youfor this situation.
Wow.
SPEAKER_02 (43:58):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (43:59):
There's there's this.
organization called FlourishVeterinary Consulting and
Flourish Veterinary Consulting.
Yeah, they have a thing calledthe Flourish Academy, um which
is where uh the Flourish Academymascot Percy spends a lot of his
time.
And um the Flourish Academy hasa has a program called the
Certificate in CultivatingPositive Team Communication that
(44:20):
actually teaches and givespeople the opportunity to
practice things like overtcuriosity.
Yeah, it's pretty cool.
You should check it out.
Wow.
SPEAKER_02 (44:28):
You know, I think I've heard that.
And I think one entire module isbased on curiosity where you get
to dive deeper into what thatlooks like and really like play
with it in a safe space so thatwhen you go out into the real
world, it's not so scary.
You get to kind of build thosemuscles in in in a safe, in a
safe, all welcoming gym asopposed to out in the real
(44:50):
world.
Yeah?
SPEAKER_00 (44:51):
Yeah, that's spot on.
And if we had more time, I wouldbe asking you what what most
excites you about that?
But unfortunately we don't havethat.
That would take a lot of timebecause I get excited about a
lot of things.
SPEAKER_02 (45:03):
You know what I also get excited about and is worth
the time to take today?
SPEAKER_00 (45:08):
Does it have anything to do with people in
Florida doing Florida things?
SPEAKER_02 (45:12):
It has everything to do with people in Florida doing
Florida things.
This week's Florida Man headlineis pretty special.
Okay.
Are you ready?
I'm ready for it.
Is everyone sitting down becausethis one is pretty good.
Florida man attempting timetravel crashes into a casket
shop.
SPEAKER_00 (45:31):
I don't even I don't even know what to do with that.
unknown (45:34):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (45:35):
Right, right.
Now I think that it's worthnoting because I read down
through the article which I willabsolutely link in the show
notes because everyone needs alittle bit of this in their
lives that not only was it acasket shop, it was a building
that had a casket shop and taxservices in the same space.
SPEAKER_00 (45:52):
The only two guaranteed life death and taxes.
SPEAKER_01 (45:56):
Exactly exactly oh I was giggling I was giggling this
was a funny one.
SPEAKER_00 (46:01):
Gosh I can't wait to read this I'm dying to know how
this person was attempting timetravel.
Like did they buy a DeLorean?
SPEAKER_02 (46:09):
Right?
Was there a flux capacitor?
I have questions.
SPEAKER_00 (46:14):
Oh that's a good one.
Well done.
Good find.
SPEAKER_01 (46:16):
Uh yeah never never a dull moment in Florida.
SPEAKER_00 (46:19):
Never a dull moment in Florida.
SPEAKER_02 (46:21):
Oh and with that I want to say thanks to all of our
listeners out there for spendingtime with us at the lab.
Of course we will share thelinks to the papers and all the
other things that we mentionedin the show notes.
Be sure to follow us drop areview and let us know what you
think.
And we'll see you next time inthe Veterinary Culture Lab.
Thanks for hanging out with usin the Veterinary Culture Lab,
(46:44):
powered by the science ofworkplace well-being and brought
to you by Flourish VeterinaryConsulting.
If today's episode sparked anidea made you smile or got you
thinking hey I should totallytry that let us know what do you
think?
Be sure to subscribe share andremember a thriving veterinary
(47:05):
culture is possible and youdon't have to build it alone
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