June 16, 2026 • 50 mins
In this episode of The Veterinary Culture Lab, Andi and Josh explore a hopeful but important question: what if veterinary medicine already has many of the ingredients needed for people and teams to thrive?
Grounded in research on meaningful work, burnout, resilience, leadership, and workplace wellbeing, this conversation challenges the idea that vet med is fundamentally broken. Instead, the episode explores how purpose, connection, growth, and supportive culture already exist within the profession — and what leaders can do to intentionally build environments where those strengths can flourish.
You’ll hear:
- Why meaningful work is one of the strongest protective factors against burnout
- How leadership behaviors shape engagement, trust, and workplace wellbeing
- The role autonomy, connection, and recognition play in helping teams thrive
- Why resilience is not just an individual responsibility
- What veterinary technicians and nurses say they actually need from workplaces
- How poor culture quietly erodes even deeply passionate teams
- Practical ways leaders can strengthen thriving without waiting for a complete overhaul
- Why vet med may not need saving nearly as much as it needs renovation
Whether you are a veterinary technician, assistant, veterinarian, manager, student, or practice owner, this episode offers a science-backed and deeply human look at what thriving can realistically look like in veterinary medicine.
Because thriving in vet med is not about finding brand-new ingredients.
It is about finally learning how to use the ones we already have.
Resource Links:
Episode Article:
Title: The Life of Meaning: A model of the Positive Contribution to Well-Being from Veterinary Work.
Authors:Martin Cake, Melinda Ball, Naomi Bickly, and David Bartram
DOI: https://utppublishing.com/doi/pdf/10.3138/jvme.1014-097R1
Colorado Avalanche - Glass Breaking Info
The Veterinary Culture Lab - Ep. 001 North of Neutral: why positive psychology matters in vet med
Florida Man This Week - Toilet Paper Rosel
What Do You Think? Reach out to us and let us know at Info@flourish.vet
Your Hosts:
Andi Davison LVT, CAPP, APPC
Josh Vaisman MAPPCP, CCFP
At Flourish Veterinary Consulting we renovate veterinary cultures. We diagnose what’s working, blueprint what’s next, and train every team member - blending positive psychology with real-world experience - so thriving becomes the norm, not the myth.
Timestamps:
00:29 Late Night Hockey
09:35 Hard Versus Meaningful
13:06 Why We Focus Negative
18:23 COVID Client Bias
22:00 Research Review
23:56 Meaningful Vet Work
24:51 Eudaimonic Wellbeing
26:22 Drivers of Thriving
27:23 Stress Satisfaction Paradox
32:06 Wellbeing Garden Metaphor
35:39 Cultivation Over Balance
37:32 Make Meaning Visible
Headed to WVC Nashville this August? We'd LOVE to meet you! Andi will be speaking August 16 & 17, and Josh will be there too. Stop by a session and introduce yourself - we always love meeting members of the Veterinary Culture Lab community. Grab your boots, bring your curiosity, and come say hello!
Listen
Watch
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:04):
Welcome to the Veterinary Culture Lab, where
science meets real-worldapplication.
I'm Andy Davison.
SPEAKER_01 (00:12):
And I'm Josh Weisman.
Together, we'll show you anevidence-based blueprint for
renovating culture in yourveterinary team.
One episode at a time.
SPEAKER_00 (00:22):
VetMed is not lacking passion, purpose, or
people who care deeply.
So why does thriving feel sohard?
In this episode, we explore thescience of meaningful work and
why veterinary medicine mayalready have the ingredients it
needs to build somethingamazing.
(00:43):
Hey Josh.
How how's it going on this fineday?
SPEAKER_01 (00:47):
Oh, not too bad.
I'm a little tired, actually.
SPEAKER_00 (00:50):
Oh, why not?
SPEAKER_01 (00:53):
If you had to guess what time Greta and I typically
go to sleep, what would youguess?
SPEAKER_00 (00:57):
I mean, I think you probably know, but um, I'm I'm
gonna guess because I probablyknow.
And I'm gonna go with 8:30.
SPEAKER_01 (01:05):
It's you're not that far off.
Typically the lights are out,the TV's off around nine.
Um, and we're going to bed.
So Tuesday, I was flying homefrom Raleigh, North Carolina.
And I had to wake up at 6 a.m.,roughly 6 a.m., a little bit
before um Raleigh time to catchmy flight, which is 4 a.m.
(01:28):
here in Colorado.
And then got on the flight, camehome, did a little bit of work,
and then super exciting.
Uh Greta and I and her friendMandy went to the Colorado
Avalanche um playoff game.
SPEAKER_00 (01:41):
So we went to Willie, that's hockey?
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (01:45):
Yeah, yeah.
Um, which is awesome.
If you ever have a chance, um,even if you're not really into
sports, just like hockey playoffgames are like a whole other
level of like energy.
SPEAKER_00 (01:54):
I grew up in Detroit, so I do understand
hockey playoff mania.
SPEAKER_01 (01:59):
Okay, great, great.
Yep, I guess.
This game, so for whateverreason, the game started at 8
p.m., which is already like uhpast your bedtime.
Do you do you know who we are?
Um, but whatever.
It's it's playoffs, it's it'shockey, it's fun, going with a
friend, like it'll be good,right?
So we get there, and then um,because of TV situations, the
(02:22):
the game prior, which I thinkwas maybe Boston Buffalo,
anyway, what whatever game wason ESPN before the ABS game went
long.
So the ABS game didn't actuallystart at eight, it started at
almost 820.
And then about halfway throughthe game, like the craziest
thing I've ever seen at a livesporting event, so it's it's
hockey, right?
(02:42):
So there's like all these glasswalls and stuff around, and
there's like these big glasswalls behind the the team
benches, and then there's likefans right on the other side of
the glass.
And like the thing you do whenyou sit in the glass and hockey
is you like bang on the wall andyou harass people on this set.
So this dude is like banging onthis wall, and the glass just
shatters.
(03:03):
You could look this up online,like seriously.
Maybe we can even share like inthe show notes a link to this.
It's crazy.
This dude is like bam, bam, andall of a sudden it just shatters
like on the coaches and on uhthe players for for the LA
Kings, which meant that they hadto stop the game, clean up all
the glass, and replace thatsection of glass wall.
(03:23):
So now the game that wassupposed to start at eight,
which is already practically mybedtime, and then started 20
minutes late because the gamebefore it on TV went long, has
now delayed another 20 minutes.
SPEAKER_00 (03:35):
Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_01 (03:36):
And then it was tied at the end of the third period.
So they went into over.
I don't think Grand and I gothome till like almost one in the
morning.
And then I like woke up and didwork on Wednesday.
I'm tired, man.
I'm tired.
SPEAKER_00 (03:52):
Yeah, I can I can see why.
I can see why.
I'm also impressed it only tookthem 20 minutes to clean up
glass and replace a glass likepanel.
SPEAKER_01 (04:02):
I have never seen like so many people in like all
black outfits and shoes, notlike skates, run out onto the
ice rink and run over there andsweep stuff up and clean things
up and then bring out this giantpaint of glass.
It was really cool to watch.
I mean, they were veryimpressive.
They did some sure some goodwork pretty quickly, but yeah,
it was wild.
(04:23):
That was uh that was a heck of agame.
Avs won, by the way.
SPEAKER_00 (04:26):
I was gonna ask who won the game.
SPEAKER_01 (04:27):
Yeah, yeah, the Avs won.
So at least it was worth it inthe end.
unknown (04:30):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (04:31):
For real.
For real.
SPEAKER_01 (04:32):
How are you?
SPEAKER_00 (04:33):
I'm fantastic.
I just got back from ridingMarshall.
I had a wonderful jump lesson.
He is becoming quite the quitethe young man.
I'm so proud of him.
And uh, I'm learning so much inriding him.
I I just love him.
He's such a blast and he's sucha he's such a kind soul, right?
Like he's only, well, five and ahalf, six, and he's like, okay,
(04:56):
mom, we got this.
Like, let's go.
I got you.
And that's really a nicefeeling, especially with a young
horse that you've got like abuddy that is gonna not expect
you to be perfect, but is gonnakind of learn and do and go
along with you.
And uh, it's it's just great.
He's so much fun.
Yep.
SPEAKER_01 (05:13):
That's awesome.
SPEAKER_00 (05:14):
Good horse lessons always make me happy.
So yeah.
Always.
SPEAKER_01 (05:17):
Oh, absolutely, as you should be.
He's uh he's a sweet guy.
I miss that big old dork.
I do have one more thing toshare with you, actually.
I'm just remembering.
So um a mutual friend of ours,you'll you'll know who I'm
talking about when I tell youthe story.
Um, just recently found out thatuh he got a job in the south of
France, and he will be moving tosaid country very shortly.
(05:40):
Yeah, which is super, superexciting, right?
SPEAKER_00 (05:42):
Yay.
SPEAKER_01 (05:43):
Um, yeah.
So, of course, like, you know,as he's preparing for this job,
he's like telling me all thesethings about, you know, where
he's gonna work and what it'sgonna be like in France and this
and that.
And he told me something that Ithought was really interesting.
Did you know that the firstFrench fries actually were not
cooked in France?
SPEAKER_00 (05:57):
I did not know where where where on earth were they
cooked, Josh.
SPEAKER_01 (06:01):
Oh, they were cooked in Greece.
SPEAKER_00 (06:02):
That's a good one.
That's a good one.
Yep.
SPEAKER_01 (06:05):
He like, no joke, in his travels, he found this.
I'm holding it up to the screen.
Those of you listening won't beable to see this, but he found a
dad jokes um like card set andsomewhere in Europe.
He was traveling in Europe andhe found this.
And he's like, Oh, I need to getthat and bring that back to
Josh.
And he did.
SPEAKER_00 (06:22):
That joke just because dad jokes are universal.
Everyone universally rolls theireyes when someone tells a dad
joke.
SPEAKER_01 (06:29):
It's true.
It's true.
SPEAKER_00 (06:31):
That's so funny.
It's a good one.
That's that's I don't know,that's kind of one of your
better ones.
Oh, thanks.
I mean, anything involvingFrench fries, right?
SPEAKER_01 (06:39):
100%.
SPEAKER_00 (06:41):
Oh, cool, cool.
All right, I'd love to shiftgears because I have something
that I kind of want to sharewith you and the listeners.
It's a bit of an experience thathas been sitting with me for
kind of a long time now.
And the more I reflect on it,the more I realize that this
experience is a lot of how myview of well-being in veterinary
(07:05):
medicine was shaped.
Now, this moment comes from atime when I managed a large
technician team in an academichospital.
And you know, Josh, when I saylarge, I mean large.
We had over 20 technicians onthis team, different shifts,
different personalities,different experience levels, all
trying to work together in a24-hour hospital that never
(07:28):
stopped moving.
It was fast, complex, and a lotof times it was a lot.
And I remember one particularstretch of time where everything
felt heavier than usual.
Not one specific incident, notone bad day, but this slow
creeping sense that people weretired, disconnected, frustrated.
(07:50):
You could feel it in the waythat people communicated or
didn't communicate.
Short answers, less laughter,more just getting through the
shift type of energy.
And I remember standing thereone night in the middle of it
all and thinking to myself,well, yeah, this is just that
med.
This is what it looks like.
(08:11):
It's hard, it's exhausting, andit wears you down.
And if I'm being really honest,at the time I didn't question
that thought at all.
I totally accepted it.
And here's the part that I'm notreally super comfortable to
admit because I realized that Iwas actually leading from that
belief, not consciously orintentionally, but subtly,
(08:35):
right?
Like the way that I approachedconversations, the way that I
thought about solutions, anddefinitely the way that I talked
about work with my team.
It became less about why thiswork is meaningful and what
makes this work meaningful, andmore about how do I help my team
survive this.
And listen, there's absolutely aplace for that.
(08:56):
There really is, because thework that we do in VetMed is
sometimes really hard.
But what I didn't realize inthat moment is that I had
unknowingly narrowed that story.
I had taken a profession that'sincredibly complex and one that
I've chosen because it'smeaningful, right?
(09:17):
And capable of making a realdifference in the world.
And I reduced it to somethingthat people had to just endure.
Now, here's what makes thismoment stick with me because
that experience, right, at thathospital with that team, it was
not all bad, not even close.
Because in the middle of thechaos of that same hospital, in
(09:39):
the middle of those busy shifts,there were also moments where
Shelby would take an extraminute to groom her equine
patient because she wanted tomake sure that the patient was
comfortable.
That the second shift crew, theywould rally around a really
tough case and walk out feelingproud, even if the outcome
wasn't perfect.
Or Tracy, Tracy would take thetime to teach, to mentor, and
(10:03):
support, even though she was alittle bit tired.
There was connection, there waspurpose and there was impact.
All of it happening in the exactsame environment that I had
labeled as that mad is justhard.
And that's the moment that'sreally been shaping my thinking
lately.
Because I've been thinking tomyself, how can both of these
(10:25):
things be true at the same time?
How can this profession feel soheavy, but also be so
meaningful?
And then I started to noticesomething else because this
mindset, right?
This language, this thoughtprocess is showing up in other
places too, not just in my ownexperience, but in the way that
(10:46):
we talk about veterinarymedicine as a whole.
We are really good at naming thehard parts.
We're really good at talkingabout burnout and stress.
We talk a lot about compassionfatigue, long hours, staffing
shortages.
And yeah, those things are real.
They matter and they deserveattention.
But I start to wonder have wegotten so good at telling the
(11:10):
this is hard story that we'vecompletely forgotten to tell the
other half?
The part that says this work ismeaningful and this work
matters, that this work has thepotential to contribute to
something bigger than ourselves.
Because if we only tell one sideof the story, then something
starts to shift, not just in howwe feel, but in how we lead, how
(11:34):
we communicate, how we designour workplaces.
We start organizing everythingaround survival, just getting
through the shift, making itthrough the weekend, helping
people cope.
And here's the question thatreally jumps out for me.
What if well-being is not justabout managing stress?
But what if it's about beingable to productively engage with
(11:59):
something that is deeplymeaningful?
Because when I think about theactual work that we do in
veterinary medicine, we solvecomplex problems.
We use highly specializedskills.
We speak for animals that cannotspeak for themselves.
And we support people inemotional vulnerable moments,
(12:20):
all while building relationshipsand learning constantly.
I mean, this isn't just work.
This is impact.
This is purpose.
This is the kind of thing thatpeople in other fields spend
their entire lives trying tofind.
So on one hand, yeah, the workcan be a lot sometimes.
(12:40):
And on the other, this work isalso full of meaning,
connection, and growth.
So the way I see it, it's notthe question of is vetmed hard?
We already know the answer tothat.
The question I'm more interestedin is how are we experiencing
it?
And maybe even more importantly,how are we structuring that
(13:02):
experience for the people withinour teams, our hospitals, and
our practices?
Because I kind of think thatveterinary medicine is not
something that we're meant tosimply survive.
Maybe if it's supported theright way, the work itself is
actually something that cancontribute to our thriving.
Now, I know that I'm not theonly one to think this.
(13:23):
In fact, the possibility ofthriving in and through the work
that we do every day is exactlywhat Flourish is built on.
So that makes me curious, Josh.
When you think about your ownexperiences in VetMed, do you
think that we've intentionallyoverindexed this this is hard
mentality and narrative?
And if so, where do you think itcomes from?
(13:46):
Like where did we learn to seeit this way?
SPEAKER_01 (13:49):
Yeah, that's a great question.
Um, what an interestingexperience and what a cool
reflection to be able to go backon to look back on how you were
leading those teams and uh maybeunwittingly or unknowingly uh
over-indexing on the this ishard stuff.
Um I I think yes, 100% that wedo that.
And I think now more than everwe do that.
(14:10):
Um, I think for a long time inthe veterinary space, no one
ever talked about the hardstuff.
Uh we, for whatever reason, wesuppressed it or avoided it.
And then, I don't know, probably20-ish years ago or so, it seems
like um the valve opened andpeople started talking about
things like, you know, probablyin the the around the time of
(14:30):
Sophia Yin and when she took herlife, uh, we started talking
about things like suicide andburnout and compassion fatigue
and all this kind of stuff.
And that's great because we weredestigmatizing these
conversations, which allows usto do something about it.
Um, but since then, it seemslike we have grown that into a
conversation about you know,vetmed is broken and damaged and
(14:54):
all bad.
And if you come here, you canbasically plan on experiencing
burnout, psychological distress,dis depression, and you may want
to take your life.
Welcome to veterinary medicine.
Like I feel like that's kind ofwhat we do.
Um, whether we recognize it ornot, that's certainly the
message that I think a lot ofpeople are receiving.
Uh, you know, I would be willingto bet that if you went and
spoke to college-age kids whoare considering applying to
(15:18):
veterinary school and you askedthem what kind of experience do
you expect to have as apracticing veterinarian or
practicing technician, I thinkthat they would say, well, you
know, from what I'm hearing,it's probably going to be really
hard and really stressful, andI'm going to be overworked and
underpaid, and I got to protectmyself from depression and
things like that.
And I don't I don't think that'sa good message to be sending
(15:38):
because that's not the realityof our profession.
It's a both and situation.
Uh where I think it comes from,Andy, is that um I I mean, I
think it's probably uhmultifactorial and way more
complex than I'm gonna make itsound right now.
I think that there's things thatI'm definitely gonna miss out on
here.
But I think one of them is justlike our our normal healthy
(15:59):
human response to really grab onto threats, real or perceived,
uh, you know, that negativitybias and the power that it has
in our brain.
And once we start talking aboutall of the challenges and all of
the stressors and all of theproblems and all of the
obstacles, it's very easy toperseverate on those and point
(16:20):
out all the bad things.
I think some of it is also justthe normal human mindset.
If I ask you to start thinkingabout fruit, you're gonna start
thinking about fruit and you'renot gonna be thinking about
vegetables.
You know, like that's that'sjust how the brain is built.
What we're primed to think aboutis where our very limited
conscious attention goes.
(16:40):
And if the conversations arearound the problems and the
challenges and the barriers towell-being in vetmed, then that
that's what we're gonna see andnotice and talk about.
So I'm sure that some of it isthat.
Um, you know, and I'm sure thatthere's there's other factors as
well.
It's for better or worse, um, wehave a human tendency to want to
(17:01):
pay more attention to thevillain than the hero.
And so it's a lot easier to uhget attention on social media
when you talk about how shittyyour workplace is and how toxic
your boss is, and it's a lotless likely that you're gonna
get that attention when youstart posting about how
wonderful your workplace is andhow great the people you work
(17:22):
with are.
So I think some of it's that.
And then I also think that we'rein a state in society where um,
just generally speaking, most ofus feel a sense of
disconnection.
And to steal from our our friendZach Mercuria, we're in a bit of
a mattering deficit.
Uh, we don't really feel as ifwe fit in the world in
meaningful ways.
And so we're striving for somesort of evidence of our
(17:46):
connection to others and ourplace in the world.
And one of the easiest ways todo that is to seek validation.
And one of the easiest ways toseek validation is to talk about
your pain and suffering and getpeople to offer some compassion
around that.
And so I think all of thosethings and probably other
factors, that was a very longresponse to your very simple
question.
SPEAKER_00 (18:04):
Sorry.
No, I love it because I'mlistening to you talk and all of
the what the little clichephrases are coming to mind,
right?
Misery loves company, squeakywheel gets the oil, like that
whole thing.
And I think that what it kind ofhighlights for me is that this
is a creation or a result, Ithink is probably a better word.
(18:25):
This is a result of us beinghuman.
This is a human thing.
It's not that that Med is fullof ho-hum people that are always
looking for the negative.
It's that we're human and that'sa lot of how our brain is set
up.
And because of that, we've beenkind of good at unintentionally
(18:46):
creating a bit of that imbalancewhere we focus on what's going
wrong, what isn't good, the factthat everybody in VetMed is
gonna get burned out, and maybeyou should second guess your
career choice.
And I think that there's a lotof humanisms that come into
that.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (19:04):
Yeah.
No, I think you're totallyright.
I think back to like when COVIDfirst hit, right?
At the very first everybody waskind of uh in lockdown and not
really going out.
And veterinary practices sawlike um visits completely
plummet to the point where a lotof privately owned practices, at
least, and maybe even somecorporate ones, there was
conversation around like howlong are we going to be able to
stay open before we're gonna runout of money and we're gonna
(19:26):
have to shut down.
And then it was like thiscomplete pendulum swing to the
other side, and boom, all of asudden everybody was bringing in
their pets.
And so we saw this massiveinflux of visits come in in a
time where many of our practicescouldn't actually let people in
the doors.
And so that created its ownchallenges and stressors.
We started to hear, for goodreason, because it it was true,
(19:50):
we started to hear an uptick oflike these bad client
experiences, impatient clients,unreasonable clients, demanding
clients, being very expressiveabout their discontent around
those things, right?
We started to hear a lot ofthose stories.
I remember probably late 2020,maybe early 2021, starting to
(20:10):
like survey people.
So it would be in an audience, avirtual audience, sometimes in
person, you know, in late 21.
Um, and then sometimes just likestraw polls online.
And I would ask a series ofquestions.
And one of the questions I wouldsay is like, uh, you know, which
one of these would you select?
The number of difficult clientinteractions has decreased over
the last year.
The number of difficult clientinteractions has remained the
(20:32):
same over the last year, or theyhave increased and almost to a
T, not a hundred percent, butwell over 80% of people selected
option C.
We are seeing way more nastyclient interactions than we ever
have.
Great.
Okay.
Now, which statement would youselect?
With that being said, which ofthese statements would you
select?
If I take a view of all of theclient interactions that I have
(20:55):
on a typical day, would I saythat most of them are not
pleasant client interactions?
Several of them, like some ofthem more than in the past, are
bad.
Or most of the clientsinteractions that I have are
actually quite pleasant or good.
And again, the same roughly 80%picked option C.
So what we have here is like youcan have a thousand client
(21:18):
interactions, and 995 of themare downright pleasant, if not
really good.
But five of them are terrible.
And last year out of a thousand,only two of them were terrible.
To us, as any human being, anynormal human being would react
this way.
Oh my God, the sky is falling.
Everybody is a jerk.
Why are all people so likethat's what our brains do?
(21:41):
So, yes, I I totally agree withyou.
I think that that's this is justa normal human response to yes,
stressful work, uh, and workthat has probably in some ways
become more stressful over thelast five years than the five
years prior.
SPEAKER_00 (21:55):
Absolutely.
That that imbalance, right?
I I it It's so true.
You have a thousand people, twoare terrible.
Which two do you remember?
Which two do you talk about?
Which two do you go home andcomplain about?
Right.
The two terrible ones.
Not the two that were theawesome ones.
You remember the two out of athousand that didn't go well.
(22:17):
And that's that's a human thing.
And that carries over intovetmed.
And it makes all the sense inthe world as to why we would be
so focused and it would be soeasy to create that imbalance
where we've done a really goodjob of preparing people for the
challenges of veterinarymedicine, but maybe not an
(22:37):
equally good job at helping themunderstand the potential within
veterinary medicine, right?
That's actually what led me tobring this paper to the lab
today, because this paperexplores a question that feels
very aligned with thisconversation.
The authors were not concernedwith how do we cope with
veterinary medicine, but ratherthey wanted to know how does
(22:59):
veterinary medicine actuallycontribute to our well-being?
And I want to be clear here thispaper does not ignore stress or
burnout.
It absolutely acknowledges thoserealities, but it does it
through a bit of a differentlens.
It looks at the professionthrough the science of positive
psychology.
And it asks, what are theelements that this work has that
(23:21):
can help people not just manageand survive it, but actually
thrive within it?
And I love this perspectivebecause it doesn't try to
replace the this is hardnarrative.
It says, yes, this work isdemanding.
And it is also full of meaning,growth, connection, and impact.
(23:42):
So let's walk through this papera bit because I think it gives
us a really helpful frameworkfor understanding why both of
those things can actually betrue at the same time.
Now, the paper is titled TheLife of Meaning: a model of the
positive contributions towell-being from veterinary work.
It was published in the Journalof Veterinary Medical Education
(24:03):
back in 2025.
Now, it's written by someonenamed Martin Cake and his
colleagues.
Martin Cake.
Is that the best name ever?
I mean, could we just take oneminute to appreciate the
amazingness of having the lastname of Cake?
I would love that.
(24:24):
Cake.
SPEAKER_01 (24:24):
I'll bet I'll bet he's a sweetheart.
SPEAKER_00 (24:26):
Uh he he'd have to be.
Everyone would expect that.
SPEAKER_01 (24:30):
I would expect that.
Also, I want a piece of cake.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (24:34):
Right?
I know.
And I'm like, damn it, now Ineed cake.
Any excuse.
Okay.
In all seriousness, though, thispaper really does deliver on
that promise.
Because at its core, it'sasking, why is veterinary work
meaningful?
And how does that meaningactually contribute to our
well-being?
And what I appreciate right outof the gate is that the authors
(24:56):
challenge something I think thatmany of us have experienced.
They point out that a lot ofwell-being education in
veterinary medicine focuses onthings like stress management,
coping skills, preventingburnout, which are important.
They also raise this concernthat if we only focus there, we
may unintentionally start toframe the profession itself as
(25:18):
something that drains ourwell-being.
And that's a pretty big deal.
Because if that becomes thedominant narrative, we start to
approach the work as somethingthat we have to protect
ourselves from instead ofsomething that can actually
contribute to our well-being.
So this is where the paperintroduces a really important
concept.
And yes, it's a big word, butstick with me.
(25:41):
It's eudaimonic well-being.
Now, this is different from theidea of well-being just as
feeling good or being happy oravoiding stress.
Instead, it defines well-beingas living a life that is
meaningful, purposeful, andgrowth-oriented.
So it includes things likedeveloping your skills,
(26:01):
contributing to something biggerthan yourself, building
meaningful relationships andengaging in work that matters.
And when you hear thatdefinition, it sounds an awful
lot like veterinary medicine,right?
So the authors take that a stepfurther and they ask what
specifically about veterinarymedicine contributes to this
(26:23):
kind of well-being?
And what they find is actuallypretty consistent across their
research.
They highlight things likeintellectual challenge, variety
in our work, helping animals,supporting clients,
relationships with othercolleagues, and opportunities
that we have for constant growthand learning.
And one of the more interestinginsights here is that things
(26:46):
like financial reward areactually not primary drivers of
satisfaction.
It's much more about meaning,connection, and growth.
So we start to see that thefoundation for well-being is not
something separate from work.
It's actually embedded withinthe work itself.
Then this paper pulls all ofthis together into a model.
(27:09):
And without getting too deepinto the theory, it basically
maps veterinary work into somecore drivers of well-being.
Things like engagement, beingchallenged, using your skills,
getting into the zone, right?
Meaning, helping animals,helping people, contributing to
something bigger than yourself.
(27:30):
Relationships, connection withyour colleagues, your team, your
clients, and accomplishment,solving cases, learning,
growing, developing mastery overtime.
Now, when I read this, I grinnedfrom ear to ear.
Because if you've been listeningto us for a while, you've
hopefully listened to our veryfirst episode.
And you'll remember that Dr.
(27:51):
Seligman's model for humanthriving includes all of these
things.
Hello, Perma.
So both Dr.
Seligman and these authors agreethat when those elements are
present, they contribute to adeeper sense of well-being.
It's not just, yeah, I had agood day, but rather the work
that I'm doing matters.
(28:12):
Now, this, Josh, is where itgets really interesting because
the authors also acknowledgesomething that we already know
to be true, that veterinarymedicine is stressful.
In fact, most veterinariansreport both high levels of
stress and high levels of jobsatisfaction at the same time.
So here we are, right back inthat tension of what we were
talking about earlier.
(28:33):
How can something feel soexhausting and yet deeply
fulfilling?
And the Kate Cruise answer thatthey don't cancel each other
out, but rather both exist atthe same time.
So I think the big takeaway hereis that yes, veterinary medicine
has the potential to be apowerful source of well-being.
(28:54):
But that potential depends onhow the work is experienced.
Because if the environment makesit difficult to connect with
others, use your skills,continue growing, feel
supported, and experience thatmeaning in the work, then even
deeply meaningful work can startto feel draining.
But when those elements aresupported, that same work can
(29:18):
become a source of energy,purpose, and yeah, even
thriving.
So for me, the paper does notanswer the question is vetmed
hard?
Come on, we already know that itis.
What it does is it shifts theconversation to what is it about
this work that can help usthrive?
And maybe more importantly, howcan we do more of that?
(29:41):
So, Josh, there's a lot in herebecause ultimately this paper is
making a pretty strong claim.
It's essentially saying that VetMed, as we experience it right
now, already contains many ofthe ingredients that can support
our well-being.
And as we were prepping for thisepisode, I learned something
really exciting.
This isn't the first time thatyou've read this paper.
(30:03):
In fact, this paper was kind offoundational for you and
Flourish.
So, given that a few years havegone by since you first read it,
I would love to hear more.
Where do you stand with all ofthis?
What still rings true after allthese years?
SPEAKER_01 (30:19):
Um, yeah, all of it.
It's really cool for me to thinkthis paper was published in
2015.
So 11 years ago now.
Um, and I remember when I firstcame across it, it was um in my
master's program, and I waslooking for well-being work
specifically in the veterinaryspace, and it was there, there
(30:40):
wasn't a lot.
In fact, it might have been thispaper.
Um, Martin Cake was involved inhe, I mean, he's been involved
in a lot of research.
I can't remember if it wasexactly this paper or another
one, but he he did kind of asystematic review of the
literature to find like stufffocused on well-being and really
um identified that like exactlywhat you said, that like a lot
(31:01):
of the research that was uh sortof under the umbrella of quote
well-being really was ill-beingresearch in veterinary medicine,
not well-being research.
And so there really wasn't alot.
Um, since then, in the last 11years, there's been a slow but
steady growth in the library ofwork specifically focused on
well-being, some of which umwe've been involved in, uh,
(31:25):
which is great.
I still firmly stand on theground that Cake and his
colleagues were trying to stakeout here.
If all we do is focus on theproblems within veterinary
medicine, all we will see areproblems in veterinary medicine.
But the reality is thatdifficult work is also
meaningful work.
And if we can find a waysystemically to help see that,
(31:46):
then the difficulty will beworth it to the human beings
involved in it.
And we just have to, I think youjust have to do a better job.
I don't know that we've gotten alot better at it in the last
decade since this paper cameout, but I'm very hopeful that
we will continue to to improvein these areas.
SPEAKER_00 (32:03):
Well, and I think that's why conversations like
this are so important that therecognition that we might need
to like shift the focus of theseconversations completely and go
in a different direction andstop asking how do we protect
people from this work, butrather ask questions like, how
do we create environments thathave the capacity to strengthen
(32:28):
and stretch and sustain peoplein this work?
Because that's more focused onthe type of well-being that can
build us up, right?
And can really matter.
SPEAKER_01 (32:42):
Yeah, no, I totally totally agree.
This paper really impacted theway that I um think about how I
express these things to people.
It was it was really comingacross this paper and then some
of the, you know, obviously someof Seligman's work and and all
of that that got me thinking andthe metaphor that you've heard
me weave a million times forpeople, this uh idea of
well-being as a garden.
(33:02):
Uh, and so if you think aboutveterinary well-being as the
garden, um, you know, a gardenhas dirt and soil, the nutrients
within the soil, the thingsyou're trying to grow, uh, the
sunlight, all those kinds ofthings.
I think that that a lot of thislike well-being as ill-being
prevention focus is really aboutweed management in a garden.
(33:23):
It's like it's saying, hey,there are things growing here
that we don't like, they don'tsmell good, they don't look
good, they don't feel good, weneed to get rid of those things.
That's what weed management isin a garden.
And weed management is anessential part of gardening.
You can't actually keep a gardenlong-term healthy and well if
you're not managing the weeds.
I think the problem is that wefocus so much on the weed
(33:46):
management that we forget aboutall the other parts of keeping a
healthy garden.
And if all we ever do is weedmanagement, first of all, that
is not an endeavor that can everbe achieved.
Like it's not possible to removeall the stressors and challenges
from veterinary work.
You will never pull all theweeds.
We can't do that.
Does it mean we should ignorethe weeds?
(34:07):
No, if we ignore the weeds, theythey can become noxious and take
over, and then we have a weedgarden and not the actual garden
we want.
So we have to do weedmanagement, we just have to
approach it in a thoughtful andnuanced way and realize that
there are some weed managementwe just can't continue doing.
But even if we could, let's justimagine for a moment that we we
(34:27):
could successfully do that.
We could get rid of all theweeds.
Great.
What's left?
Patch of dirt.
SPEAKER_00 (34:33):
A real pretty patch of dirt.
SPEAKER_01 (34:35):
Yeah, exactly, right?
A weedless patch of dirt.
Like, even if we could eliminateall the stressors and challenges
and barriers and difficulties ofveterinary medicine, all we
would do is create a stress-freeprofession.
But a stress-free profession isnot the same as a thriving
profession.
It's not the same as growing agarden.
Well-being requires both weedmanagement and cultivation.
(34:58):
It requires us to take fertileseeds, the people of VetMed, and
put them into nutrient-richsoil.
These are the workplaceenvironments that we work in,
and make sure that we aremaintaining those nutrients
because they're going to getused up over time, right?
A plant will eventually extractall the nitrogen and phosphorus
from the soil, and we have toadd more.
That's what we do withfertilizer.
(35:20):
And then we also have to waterthese things.
We have to make sure that it hasthe appropriate amount of
sunlight and that, you know,we're planting different things
at the right season for them.
And yes, we're going to be doingweed management along the way,
but we have to do both of thesethings.
And if we don't do both of thesethings, we're never going to
grow the beautiful fruits andveggies and flowers that we want
to grow in our gardens.
(35:40):
That's, I think, essentiallywhat Cake is saying.
And so that's sort of my bigtakeaway in the last 11 years,
nothing about that has changed.
SPEAKER_00 (35:48):
Yeah.
So that balance is kind ofcoming back into the
conversation, right?
The importance of balancing yourweed management with your
cultivation of the beans and thepeppers and the tomatoes and you
know, whatever else is growingin your garden.
I'm totally a vegetable gardenperson.
I couldn't grow flowers if youlike, there's no way.
(36:09):
Veggies, maybe, maybe.
Um, so we're gonna go there.
But don't don't ignore either ofthem because if you do that,
neither of them are gonnathrive.
That it's really like a balance.
SPEAKER_01 (36:23):
Yeah, yes, and I'm gonna push back on the word
balance a bit because I thinkthat balance evokes equality.
Okay, people think of balance aslike I have equal weight on both
sides and therefore it isbalanced.
Sure.
And I don't think well-being,using this garden metaphor, is
about balance in in that liketraditional sense.
Um it's it's about beingthoughtful on how we balance
(36:45):
things.
Uh, and so what I mean by that,Annie, is like, yes, when we
have a garden, we need to doweed management.
You're gonna go out to thegarden and periodically pull
some weeds out, right?
But every single day you'rewatering that garden.
And and maybe even with morefrequency than uh the weed
management, you're gonna beadding fertilizer.
Every single day that gardenneeds sunlight on it.
(37:08):
Whenever the things come up thatcould potentially threaten it,
we want to be proactive aboutit, right?
Like if there's gonna be afreeze and we've planned the
things a little bit early, youmight want to cover those things
up so that those veggies don'tdie when the hard freeze comes
or when the snow falls.
These are all things that we'redoing on the cultivation side
that probably happen with a bitmore frequency and
intentionality than the weedmanagement.
(37:29):
So, what I'm saying is that wehave to do weed management.
There's got to be stressprevention.
We have to have like goodstructures in place to uh do
what we can to mitigate, or ifwe possibly can prevent
occupational burnout.
Absolutely.
And showing people the evidenceof their contributions is not
something that happens once ayear.
That's not cultivation.
(37:49):
You don't go to your garden andwater it once in April and then
expect to go back in Septemberand find that it's produced
fruit.
SPEAKER_00 (37:57):
Yeah, it's a constant effort.
Yes, it's a constant effort tomanage the things that you want
to grow in your garden.
SPEAKER_01 (38:06):
100%.
SPEAKER_00 (38:07):
Yeah, that's great.
That's a beautiful picture, abeautiful metaphor, a way to
think of it.
I love that.
And now I want salad with mycake.
So there we are.
Okay, so this is the part wherewe get to shift and think about
(38:42):
what we can actually do withthis.
Because this is not just aninteresting idea.
If this paper is right, which Ifeel like you and I think it
kind of is, the goal here is notto just add something entirely
new.
It's actually to make better useof what's already there.
And I think there's a couple ofreally practical ways that we
can do that.
(39:02):
To me, one way is that we canstart getting better at making
meaning visible in theday-to-day work.
Because one of the things wetalked about earlier is that the
meaning is already there.
It's in your patient care, it'sin your client relationships,
it's in problem solving, it's inyour teamwork, right?
In a busy clinic, those moments,they come and go quickly.
(39:26):
And if nobody slows down longenough to acknowledge them, they
just disappear into the noise ofthe day, especially if that's
what our brains are already usedto doing.
So start noticing and callingout those moments.
And no, it does not have to besome big, formal, time-consuming
thing.
It can absolutely be 10 secondsin the middle of the shift, just
(39:49):
naming what you saw and why itmattered.
Hey, Sam, I noticed that youtook an extra minute to make
sure that Doc's fly mask wasn'trubbing on that spot under his
jaw.
And I know that that's going tomake him more comfortable while
he's here for Q4 iMeds for thenext two weeks.
It can be a quick end-of-the-dayquestion like, what went well
today?
I love this question because itintentionally looks to highlight
(40:11):
strengths.
And hey, if you're up for a morepowerful lift, maybe consider a
board or a Slack channel thatsays something like, today we
helped blank.
And encourage people, yourselfincluded, to fill in that blank
every day.
All of these ideas, they'remeant to intentionally shift our
attention from what's wrong towhat matters.
(40:34):
No, we're not ignoring theproblems, right?
We're not ignoring the weeds.
We are just putting focus andmaking effort to intentionally
pay attention to the veggies, tothe peppers, to the tomatoes, to
the cabbage, to the lettuce inyour garden.
Now, the second super cool wayto build on this is slightly
(40:54):
different because this one'sabout something just a little
bit more personal.
I have a feeling, Josh, thatyou'll agree with me when I say
that not everybody experiencesmeaning in the same way, even
within the same clinic.
One person might find meaning inbuilding relationships with
clients, or somebody else mightfind it when they solve a really
complex case.
And somebody else on the teammight light up when they're
(41:17):
teaching or mentoring orsupporting a new hire.
So to me, the question becomesdo we actually know what makes
work meaningful for the peopleon our team?
Because if we don't, then we arejust assuming and guessing.
So to me, one really practicalway is to get curious and start
(41:39):
asking, which may sound obvious,but it's not always something
that we do consistently.
Getting curious can be as simpleas a question like, hey Josh,
when do you feel most engaged orenergized during the day here?
Or even what are the moments atwork that remind you why you
chose this profession in thefirst place?
(42:00):
You could work those questionsinto your next one-on-one, into
your next team meeting.
Because when we start tounderstand those answers, we
begin to do something really,really powerful, especially as
leaders.
We are able to createopportunities for meaningful
moments to happen.
I mean, how cool would it be tolearn that Chase gets really
(42:22):
excited and lights up when he'sable to mentor and teach new
hires and then be able to givehim the chance to do just that?
Because now we are not justhoping that people experience
meaning, we are intentionallycreating more of it.
But I know there's a ton more tothis, right?
A bunch of other ideas.
And Josh, having spent so muchtime thinking about this from
(42:45):
both the science side and thereal world side, I would love to
hear from you.
What are some realistic waysthat teams might bring this
stuff and put it into action intheir clinics and hospitals?
SPEAKER_01 (42:57):
Oh, I have about 74,000 different ideas here, but
I don't think we have enoughtime for that.
Um, I'm gonna share somethingwith you as I was listening to
you.
This was a recent thing that Iheard about a hospital that does
this, and they've done this foryears.
They consistently do it everysingle day, and they've done it
for years.
And um, to to watch like thehospital team like light up
(43:19):
about this thing was reallycool.
They do an end-of-day or anend-of-shift huddle that they
call plus delta.
SPEAKER_00 (43:26):
Ooh, okay.
SPEAKER_01 (43:27):
Yeah.
Uh, so plus delta, it's veryquick.
It's not meant to be like superlong conversation.
He said it takes roughly five toten minutes, and they've really
mastered it.
Plus delta is about the plus isum what went well today, what's
worth celebrating.
And, you know, they just theybring up uh whatever kind of
things there are, but every daythey do this.
(43:47):
And then the delta is what didwe learn?
And what did we learn could belike what's something that
didn't go well and we need to dodifferently next time, what's
some sort of barrier obstacle wecame up across, or what's a
problem that we solved thateverybody should hear about so
that they don't run in the sameproblem before, or whatever.
But that's it, plus delta.
So uh what what's worthcelebrating from today and what
(44:09):
did we learn?
And I think that's a a really,really great way to weave
meaning in through a ritual.
That's the thing that I think isreally important is um turning
these things into rituals.
Like Making sure that it's notjust a thing like, oh, you know,
practice manager.
Yeah, you know what?
I really, I really need to catchpeople doing stuff right more
(44:29):
often.
I mean, yeah, you do, but howwill you ensure that actually
happens?
That's what rituals help us do.
And when these rituals caninvolve the entire team or the
entire practice or an entiredepartment or whatever it might
be, um, and they can be stuckto.
That's the other thing.
Rituals become rituals becausethey are habitual, because
(44:51):
they're sacrosanct, because theyactually do them.
So ensuring that you stick withit long enough for it to start
to become sticky and impactful,I think it's really important.
So that that's just a couple ofthoughts.
SPEAKER_00 (45:02):
Well, and involving other people in that ritual,
right?
Like making it a group projectis more likely to make it stick.
And it's more likely that peopleare gonna remember, oh, wait a
minute, it's the end of the day.
We need to go through our whatwent well and what did we learn
question.
You'll have people that areexcited about it, like this
particular team, that isprobably holding that leader
(45:25):
accountable for asking them, oh,hey, don't forget, we gotta ask,
we gotta ask that questionbecause I have something I want
to contribute to that.
And so you've got that thatritual sort of accountability
through your team as well.
I love that.
SPEAKER_01 (45:38):
Yes.
And in this team, they actuallyaren't holding a single
individual accountable tofacilitate it, they all just do
it.
SPEAKER_00 (45:45):
Even though it's a good idea.
SPEAKER_01 (45:46):
So it's it's be it's become that habitual in their
organization that um it justgets run.
It doesn't matter who's there orwho's not there.
They don't wait for a manager todo it, it's just part of what
they do.
That's a true ritual.
SPEAKER_00 (45:59):
Heck yeah, it is.
Yep.
Yep, that's really cool.
I mean, I'm excited about that.
I'm not even part of the team,and I'm like, I want to know.
SPEAKER_01 (46:07):
Yeah, right.
unknown (46:08):
Very well.
SPEAKER_01 (46:08):
What's the plus delta today?
SPEAKER_00 (46:10):
Yeah.
Plus delta.
I like that.
Delta like change, right?
SPEAKER_01 (46:14):
Yes, exactly.
There we go.
SPEAKER_00 (46:16):
Yeah.
All right, cool, cool.
Glad glad I got there.
Well, all right.
As we wrap this up, I keepcoming back to this idea
because, like I said, the paper,it doesn't tell us that vetmed
is easy.
It doesn't ignore the stress,the complexity, or the very real
challenges that tend to comewith this work.
But what it did do is expand theconversation.
It reminded us that thisprofession is not just something
(46:39):
that takes from us, but it'salso something that has the
potential to give in reallymeaningful ways.
And I think the real takeawayhere is that we don't need to go
out and find meaning somewhereelse, that we have what we need.
And if we can get better atseeing it, supporting it, and
(47:00):
creating the conditions wherepeople can actually experience
it, then thriving in vetmed canstop feeling like this abstract,
far-off idea and start feeling alot more possible.
Now, speaking of far-off andabstract ideas, I happen to know
(47:20):
someone who is full of them.
Can you can you take a wildguess as to who that is?
SPEAKER_01 (47:27):
I'm guessing this person resides somewhere in the
southeast of the United Statesof America.
SPEAKER_00 (47:32):
Yeah, a particular peninsula.
Yep, called Florida.
This week's Florida Man is it'sit's good, but I'm gonna ask you
to stick with me on this onebecause it takes it takes a
little bit, and there there willbe a quiz at the end.
There is a follow-up questionthat I have for you.
SPEAKER_01 (47:51):
Okay, I'm ready.
SPEAKER_00 (47:52):
Florida man says intruder entered his home,
cleaned everything, and leftbehind a toilet paper rose.
Now, reading further down, thisparticular Florida man reported
that somebody broke into hishome, stole nothing, cleaned the
(48:14):
bedrooms, cleaned the bathrooms,they even put the kids' toys
away, and they left toilet paperroses on in the bathroom.
My follow-up question, and Istill don't know if I know the
answer, which one's the Floridaman?
Like the one that broke in andcleaned the house, or the one
(48:35):
that reported this happening?
Like, who's the Florida man inthis situation?
It's crazy.
SPEAKER_01 (48:41):
I maybe both.
SPEAKER_00 (48:43):
I it yeah, I think that's the only answer.
That they both they both arechampion Florida men.
SPEAKER_01 (48:50):
I need somebody to break into my house this week.
I need that exact person tobreak into my house this week.
SPEAKER_00 (48:57):
Like, right.
Oh, I got a job for you, Floridaman.
No kidding.
SPEAKER_01 (49:02):
That is amazing.
That is amazing.
SPEAKER_00 (49:04):
Yep, yeah.
And they left toilet paper roselike a hotel.
Yes.
Florida man is always thinkingabout kindness.
SPEAKER_01 (49:13):
Apparently.
That's good.
That's good.
SPEAKER_00 (49:17):
Right, right.
Well, thanks so much to all ofour listeners out there for
spending time with us in thelab.
Of course, we'll share the linkfor the paper and anything else
that we mentioned today in theshow notes.
And if if you enjoy your time inthe lab with us, be sure to
follow the show, drop us areview, and share this episode
with a friend or a colleague.
And we will see you next time inthe Veterinary Culture Lab.
(49:44):
Thanks for hanging out with usin the Veterinary Culture Lab,
powered by the science ofworkplace well-being, and
brought to you by FlourishVeterinary Consulting.
If today's episode sparked anidea, made you smile, or got you
thinking, hey, I should totallytry that.
Let us know.
What do you think?
Be sure to subscribe, share, andremember a thriving veterinary
(50:08):
culture is possible, and youdon't have to build it alone.
Welcome to the Veterinary Culture Lab, where
science meets real-worldapplication.
I'm Andy Davison.
SPEAKER_01 (00:12):
And I'm Josh Weisman.
Together, we'll show you anevidence-based blueprint for
renovating culture in yourveterinary team.
One episode at a time.
SPEAKER_00 (00:22):
VetMed is not lacking passion, purpose, or
people who care deeply.
So why does thriving feel sohard?
In this episode, we explore thescience of meaningful work and
why veterinary medicine mayalready have the ingredients it
needs to build somethingamazing.
(00:43):
Hey Josh.
How how's it going on this fineday?
SPEAKER_01 (00:47):
Oh, not too bad.
I'm a little tired, actually.
SPEAKER_00 (00:50):
Oh, why not?
SPEAKER_01 (00:53):
If you had to guess what time Greta and I typically
go to sleep, what would youguess?
SPEAKER_00 (00:57):
I mean, I think you probably know, but um, I'm I'm
gonna guess because I probablyknow.
And I'm gonna go with 8:30.
SPEAKER_01 (01:05):
It's you're not that far off.
Typically the lights are out,the TV's off around nine.
Um, and we're going to bed.
So Tuesday, I was flying homefrom Raleigh, North Carolina.
And I had to wake up at 6 a.m.,roughly 6 a.m., a little bit
before um Raleigh time to catchmy flight, which is 4 a.m.
(01:28):
here in Colorado.
And then got on the flight, camehome, did a little bit of work,
and then super exciting.
Uh Greta and I and her friendMandy went to the Colorado
Avalanche um playoff game.
SPEAKER_00 (01:41):
So we went to Willie, that's hockey?
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (01:45):
Yeah, yeah.
Um, which is awesome.
If you ever have a chance, um,even if you're not really into
sports, just like hockey playoffgames are like a whole other
level of like energy.
SPEAKER_00 (01:54):
I grew up in Detroit, so I do understand
hockey playoff mania.
SPEAKER_01 (01:59):
Okay, great, great.
Yep, I guess.
This game, so for whateverreason, the game started at 8
p.m., which is already like uhpast your bedtime.
Do you do you know who we are?
Um, but whatever.
It's it's playoffs, it's it'shockey, it's fun, going with a
friend, like it'll be good,right?
So we get there, and then um,because of TV situations, the
(02:22):
the game prior, which I thinkwas maybe Boston Buffalo,
anyway, what whatever game wason ESPN before the ABS game went
long.
So the ABS game didn't actuallystart at eight, it started at
almost 820.
And then about halfway throughthe game, like the craziest
thing I've ever seen at a livesporting event, so it's it's
hockey, right?
(02:42):
So there's like all these glasswalls and stuff around, and
there's like these big glasswalls behind the the team
benches, and then there's likefans right on the other side of
the glass.
And like the thing you do whenyou sit in the glass and hockey
is you like bang on the wall andyou harass people on this set.
So this dude is like banging onthis wall, and the glass just
shatters.
(03:03):
You could look this up online,like seriously.
Maybe we can even share like inthe show notes a link to this.
It's crazy.
This dude is like bam, bam, andall of a sudden it just shatters
like on the coaches and on uhthe players for for the LA
Kings, which meant that they hadto stop the game, clean up all
the glass, and replace thatsection of glass wall.
(03:23):
So now the game that wassupposed to start at eight,
which is already practically mybedtime, and then started 20
minutes late because the gamebefore it on TV went long, has
now delayed another 20 minutes.
SPEAKER_00 (03:35):
Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_01 (03:36):
And then it was tied at the end of the third period.
So they went into over.
I don't think Grand and I gothome till like almost one in the
morning.
And then I like woke up and didwork on Wednesday.
I'm tired, man.
I'm tired.
SPEAKER_00 (03:52):
Yeah, I can I can see why.
I can see why.
I'm also impressed it only tookthem 20 minutes to clean up
glass and replace a glass likepanel.
SPEAKER_01 (04:02):
I have never seen like so many people in like all
black outfits and shoes, notlike skates, run out onto the
ice rink and run over there andsweep stuff up and clean things
up and then bring out this giantpaint of glass.
It was really cool to watch.
I mean, they were veryimpressive.
They did some sure some goodwork pretty quickly, but yeah,
it was wild.
(04:23):
That was uh that was a heck of agame.
Avs won, by the way.
SPEAKER_00 (04:26):
I was gonna ask who won the game.
SPEAKER_01 (04:27):
Yeah, yeah, the Avs won.
So at least it was worth it inthe end.
unknown (04:30):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (04:31):
For real.
For real.
SPEAKER_01 (04:32):
How are you?
SPEAKER_00 (04:33):
I'm fantastic.
I just got back from ridingMarshall.
I had a wonderful jump lesson.
He is becoming quite the quitethe young man.
I'm so proud of him.
And uh, I'm learning so much inriding him.
I I just love him.
He's such a blast and he's sucha he's such a kind soul, right?
Like he's only, well, five and ahalf, six, and he's like, okay,
(04:56):
mom, we got this.
Like, let's go.
I got you.
And that's really a nicefeeling, especially with a young
horse that you've got like abuddy that is gonna not expect
you to be perfect, but is gonnakind of learn and do and go
along with you.
And uh, it's it's just great.
He's so much fun.
Yep.
SPEAKER_01 (05:13):
That's awesome.
SPEAKER_00 (05:14):
Good horse lessons always make me happy.
So yeah.
Always.
SPEAKER_01 (05:17):
Oh, absolutely, as you should be.
He's uh he's a sweet guy.
I miss that big old dork.
I do have one more thing toshare with you, actually.
I'm just remembering.
So um a mutual friend of ours,you'll you'll know who I'm
talking about when I tell youthe story.
Um, just recently found out thatuh he got a job in the south of
France, and he will be moving tosaid country very shortly.
(05:40):
Yeah, which is super, superexciting, right?
SPEAKER_00 (05:42):
Yay.
SPEAKER_01 (05:43):
Um, yeah.
So, of course, like, you know,as he's preparing for this job,
he's like telling me all thesethings about, you know, where
he's gonna work and what it'sgonna be like in France and this
and that.
And he told me something that Ithought was really interesting.
Did you know that the firstFrench fries actually were not
cooked in France?
SPEAKER_00 (05:57):
I did not know where where where on earth were they
cooked, Josh.
SPEAKER_01 (06:01):
Oh, they were cooked in Greece.
SPEAKER_00 (06:02):
That's a good one.
That's a good one.
Yep.
SPEAKER_01 (06:05):
He like, no joke, in his travels, he found this.
I'm holding it up to the screen.
Those of you listening won't beable to see this, but he found a
dad jokes um like card set andsomewhere in Europe.
He was traveling in Europe andhe found this.
And he's like, Oh, I need to getthat and bring that back to
Josh.
And he did.
SPEAKER_00 (06:22):
That joke just because dad jokes are universal.
Everyone universally rolls theireyes when someone tells a dad
joke.
SPEAKER_01 (06:29):
It's true.
It's true.
SPEAKER_00 (06:31):
That's so funny.
It's a good one.
That's that's I don't know,that's kind of one of your
better ones.
Oh, thanks.
I mean, anything involvingFrench fries, right?
SPEAKER_01 (06:39):
100%.
SPEAKER_00 (06:41):
Oh, cool, cool.
All right, I'd love to shiftgears because I have something
that I kind of want to sharewith you and the listeners.
It's a bit of an experience thathas been sitting with me for
kind of a long time now.
And the more I reflect on it,the more I realize that this
experience is a lot of how myview of well-being in veterinary
(07:05):
medicine was shaped.
Now, this moment comes from atime when I managed a large
technician team in an academichospital.
And you know, Josh, when I saylarge, I mean large.
We had over 20 technicians onthis team, different shifts,
different personalities,different experience levels, all
trying to work together in a24-hour hospital that never
(07:28):
stopped moving.
It was fast, complex, and a lotof times it was a lot.
And I remember one particularstretch of time where everything
felt heavier than usual.
Not one specific incident, notone bad day, but this slow
creeping sense that people weretired, disconnected, frustrated.
(07:50):
You could feel it in the waythat people communicated or
didn't communicate.
Short answers, less laughter,more just getting through the
shift type of energy.
And I remember standing thereone night in the middle of it
all and thinking to myself,well, yeah, this is just that
med.
This is what it looks like.
(08:11):
It's hard, it's exhausting, andit wears you down.
And if I'm being really honest,at the time I didn't question
that thought at all.
I totally accepted it.
And here's the part that I'm notreally super comfortable to
admit because I realized that Iwas actually leading from that
belief, not consciously orintentionally, but subtly,
(08:35):
right?
Like the way that I approachedconversations, the way that I
thought about solutions, anddefinitely the way that I talked
about work with my team.
It became less about why thiswork is meaningful and what
makes this work meaningful, andmore about how do I help my team
survive this.
And listen, there's absolutely aplace for that.
(08:56):
There really is, because thework that we do in VetMed is
sometimes really hard.
But what I didn't realize inthat moment is that I had
unknowingly narrowed that story.
I had taken a profession that'sincredibly complex and one that
I've chosen because it'smeaningful, right?
(09:17):
And capable of making a realdifference in the world.
And I reduced it to somethingthat people had to just endure.
Now, here's what makes thismoment stick with me because
that experience, right, at thathospital with that team, it was
not all bad, not even close.
Because in the middle of thechaos of that same hospital, in
(09:39):
the middle of those busy shifts,there were also moments where
Shelby would take an extraminute to groom her equine
patient because she wanted tomake sure that the patient was
comfortable.
That the second shift crew, theywould rally around a really
tough case and walk out feelingproud, even if the outcome
wasn't perfect.
Or Tracy, Tracy would take thetime to teach, to mentor, and
(10:03):
support, even though she was alittle bit tired.
There was connection, there waspurpose and there was impact.
All of it happening in the exactsame environment that I had
labeled as that mad is justhard.
And that's the moment that'sreally been shaping my thinking
lately.
Because I've been thinking tomyself, how can both of these
(10:25):
things be true at the same time?
How can this profession feel soheavy, but also be so
meaningful?
And then I started to noticesomething else because this
mindset, right?
This language, this thoughtprocess is showing up in other
places too, not just in my ownexperience, but in the way that
(10:46):
we talk about veterinarymedicine as a whole.
We are really good at naming thehard parts.
We're really good at talkingabout burnout and stress.
We talk a lot about compassionfatigue, long hours, staffing
shortages.
And yeah, those things are real.
They matter and they deserveattention.
But I start to wonder have wegotten so good at telling the
(11:10):
this is hard story that we'vecompletely forgotten to tell the
other half?
The part that says this work ismeaningful and this work
matters, that this work has thepotential to contribute to
something bigger than ourselves.
Because if we only tell one sideof the story, then something
starts to shift, not just in howwe feel, but in how we lead, how
(11:34):
we communicate, how we designour workplaces.
We start organizing everythingaround survival, just getting
through the shift, making itthrough the weekend, helping
people cope.
And here's the question thatreally jumps out for me.
What if well-being is not justabout managing stress?
But what if it's about beingable to productively engage with
(11:59):
something that is deeplymeaningful?
Because when I think about theactual work that we do in
veterinary medicine, we solvecomplex problems.
We use highly specializedskills.
We speak for animals that cannotspeak for themselves.
And we support people inemotional vulnerable moments,
(12:20):
all while building relationshipsand learning constantly.
I mean, this isn't just work.
This is impact.
This is purpose.
This is the kind of thing thatpeople in other fields spend
their entire lives trying tofind.
So on one hand, yeah, the workcan be a lot sometimes.
(12:40):
And on the other, this work isalso full of meaning,
connection, and growth.
So the way I see it, it's notthe question of is vetmed hard?
We already know the answer tothat.
The question I'm more interestedin is how are we experiencing
it?
And maybe even more importantly,how are we structuring that
(13:02):
experience for the people withinour teams, our hospitals, and
our practices?
Because I kind of think thatveterinary medicine is not
something that we're meant tosimply survive.
Maybe if it's supported theright way, the work itself is
actually something that cancontribute to our thriving.
Now, I know that I'm not theonly one to think this.
(13:23):
In fact, the possibility ofthriving in and through the work
that we do every day is exactlywhat Flourish is built on.
So that makes me curious, Josh.
When you think about your ownexperiences in VetMed, do you
think that we've intentionallyoverindexed this this is hard
mentality and narrative?
And if so, where do you think itcomes from?
(13:46):
Like where did we learn to seeit this way?
SPEAKER_01 (13:49):
Yeah, that's a great question.
Um, what an interestingexperience and what a cool
reflection to be able to go backon to look back on how you were
leading those teams and uh maybeunwittingly or unknowingly uh
over-indexing on the this ishard stuff.
Um I I think yes, 100% that wedo that.
And I think now more than everwe do that.
(14:10):
Um, I think for a long time inthe veterinary space, no one
ever talked about the hardstuff.
Uh we, for whatever reason, wesuppressed it or avoided it.
And then, I don't know, probably20-ish years ago or so, it seems
like um the valve opened andpeople started talking about
things like, you know, probablyin the the around the time of
(14:30):
Sophia Yin and when she took herlife, uh, we started talking
about things like suicide andburnout and compassion fatigue
and all this kind of stuff.
And that's great because we weredestigmatizing these
conversations, which allows usto do something about it.
Um, but since then, it seemslike we have grown that into a
conversation about you know,vetmed is broken and damaged and
(14:54):
all bad.
And if you come here, you canbasically plan on experiencing
burnout, psychological distress,dis depression, and you may want
to take your life.
Welcome to veterinary medicine.
Like I feel like that's kind ofwhat we do.
Um, whether we recognize it ornot, that's certainly the
message that I think a lot ofpeople are receiving.
Uh, you know, I would be willingto bet that if you went and
spoke to college-age kids whoare considering applying to
(15:18):
veterinary school and you askedthem what kind of experience do
you expect to have as apracticing veterinarian or
practicing technician, I thinkthat they would say, well, you
know, from what I'm hearing,it's probably going to be really
hard and really stressful, andI'm going to be overworked and
underpaid, and I got to protectmyself from depression and
things like that.
And I don't I don't think that'sa good message to be sending
(15:38):
because that's not the realityof our profession.
It's a both and situation.
Uh where I think it comes from,Andy, is that um I I mean, I
think it's probably uhmultifactorial and way more
complex than I'm gonna make itsound right now.
I think that there's things thatI'm definitely gonna miss out on
here.
But I think one of them is justlike our our normal healthy
(15:59):
human response to really grab onto threats, real or perceived,
uh, you know, that negativitybias and the power that it has
in our brain.
And once we start talking aboutall of the challenges and all of
the stressors and all of theproblems and all of the
obstacles, it's very easy toperseverate on those and point
(16:20):
out all the bad things.
I think some of it is also justthe normal human mindset.
If I ask you to start thinkingabout fruit, you're gonna start
thinking about fruit and you'renot gonna be thinking about
vegetables.
You know, like that's that'sjust how the brain is built.
What we're primed to think aboutis where our very limited
conscious attention goes.
(16:40):
And if the conversations arearound the problems and the
challenges and the barriers towell-being in vetmed, then that
that's what we're gonna see andnotice and talk about.
So I'm sure that some of it isthat.
Um, you know, and I'm sure thatthere's there's other factors as
well.
It's for better or worse, um, wehave a human tendency to want to
(17:01):
pay more attention to thevillain than the hero.
And so it's a lot easier to uhget attention on social media
when you talk about how shittyyour workplace is and how toxic
your boss is, and it's a lotless likely that you're gonna
get that attention when youstart posting about how
wonderful your workplace is andhow great the people you work
(17:22):
with are.
So I think some of it's that.
And then I also think that we'rein a state in society where um,
just generally speaking, most ofus feel a sense of
disconnection.
And to steal from our our friendZach Mercuria, we're in a bit of
a mattering deficit.
Uh, we don't really feel as ifwe fit in the world in
meaningful ways.
And so we're striving for somesort of evidence of our
(17:46):
connection to others and ourplace in the world.
And one of the easiest ways todo that is to seek validation.
And one of the easiest ways toseek validation is to talk about
your pain and suffering and getpeople to offer some compassion
around that.
And so I think all of thosethings and probably other
factors, that was a very longresponse to your very simple
question.
SPEAKER_00 (18:04):
Sorry.
No, I love it because I'mlistening to you talk and all of
the what the little clichephrases are coming to mind,
right?
Misery loves company, squeakywheel gets the oil, like that
whole thing.
And I think that what it kind ofhighlights for me is that this
is a creation or a result, Ithink is probably a better word.
(18:25):
This is a result of us beinghuman.
This is a human thing.
It's not that that Med is fullof ho-hum people that are always
looking for the negative.
It's that we're human and that'sa lot of how our brain is set
up.
And because of that, we've beenkind of good at unintentionally
(18:46):
creating a bit of that imbalancewhere we focus on what's going
wrong, what isn't good, the factthat everybody in VetMed is
gonna get burned out, and maybeyou should second guess your
career choice.
And I think that there's a lotof humanisms that come into
that.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (19:04):
Yeah.
No, I think you're totallyright.
I think back to like when COVIDfirst hit, right?
At the very first everybody waskind of uh in lockdown and not
really going out.
And veterinary practices sawlike um visits completely
plummet to the point where a lotof privately owned practices, at
least, and maybe even somecorporate ones, there was
conversation around like howlong are we going to be able to
stay open before we're gonna runout of money and we're gonna
(19:26):
have to shut down.
And then it was like thiscomplete pendulum swing to the
other side, and boom, all of asudden everybody was bringing in
their pets.
And so we saw this massiveinflux of visits come in in a
time where many of our practicescouldn't actually let people in
the doors.
And so that created its ownchallenges and stressors.
We started to hear, for goodreason, because it it was true,
(19:50):
we started to hear an uptick oflike these bad client
experiences, impatient clients,unreasonable clients, demanding
clients, being very expressiveabout their discontent around
those things, right?
We started to hear a lot ofthose stories.
I remember probably late 2020,maybe early 2021, starting to
(20:10):
like survey people.
So it would be in an audience, avirtual audience, sometimes in
person, you know, in late 21.
Um, and then sometimes just likestraw polls online.
And I would ask a series ofquestions.
And one of the questions I wouldsay is like, uh, you know, which
one of these would you select?
The number of difficult clientinteractions has decreased over
the last year.
The number of difficult clientinteractions has remained the
(20:32):
same over the last year, or theyhave increased and almost to a
T, not a hundred percent, butwell over 80% of people selected
option C.
We are seeing way more nastyclient interactions than we ever
have.
Great.
Okay.
Now, which statement would youselect?
With that being said, which ofthese statements would you
select?
If I take a view of all of theclient interactions that I have
(20:55):
on a typical day, would I saythat most of them are not
pleasant client interactions?
Several of them, like some ofthem more than in the past, are
bad.
Or most of the clientsinteractions that I have are
actually quite pleasant or good.
And again, the same roughly 80%picked option C.
So what we have here is like youcan have a thousand client
(21:18):
interactions, and 995 of themare downright pleasant, if not
really good.
But five of them are terrible.
And last year out of a thousand,only two of them were terrible.
To us, as any human being, anynormal human being would react
this way.
Oh my God, the sky is falling.
Everybody is a jerk.
Why are all people so likethat's what our brains do?
(21:41):
So, yes, I I totally agree withyou.
I think that that's this is justa normal human response to yes,
stressful work, uh, and workthat has probably in some ways
become more stressful over thelast five years than the five
years prior.
SPEAKER_00 (21:55):
Absolutely.
That that imbalance, right?
I I it It's so true.
You have a thousand people, twoare terrible.
Which two do you remember?
Which two do you talk about?
Which two do you go home andcomplain about?
Right.
The two terrible ones.
Not the two that were theawesome ones.
You remember the two out of athousand that didn't go well.
(22:17):
And that's that's a human thing.
And that carries over intovetmed.
And it makes all the sense inthe world as to why we would be
so focused and it would be soeasy to create that imbalance
where we've done a really goodjob of preparing people for the
challenges of veterinarymedicine, but maybe not an
(22:37):
equally good job at helping themunderstand the potential within
veterinary medicine, right?
That's actually what led me tobring this paper to the lab
today, because this paperexplores a question that feels
very aligned with thisconversation.
The authors were not concernedwith how do we cope with
veterinary medicine, but ratherthey wanted to know how does
(22:59):
veterinary medicine actuallycontribute to our well-being?
And I want to be clear here thispaper does not ignore stress or
burnout.
It absolutely acknowledges thoserealities, but it does it
through a bit of a differentlens.
It looks at the professionthrough the science of positive
psychology.
And it asks, what are theelements that this work has that
(23:21):
can help people not just manageand survive it, but actually
thrive within it?
And I love this perspectivebecause it doesn't try to
replace the this is hardnarrative.
It says, yes, this work isdemanding.
And it is also full of meaning,growth, connection, and impact.
(23:42):
So let's walk through this papera bit because I think it gives
us a really helpful frameworkfor understanding why both of
those things can actually betrue at the same time.
Now, the paper is titled TheLife of Meaning: a model of the
positive contributions towell-being from veterinary work.
It was published in the Journalof Veterinary Medical Education
(24:03):
back in 2025.
Now, it's written by someonenamed Martin Cake and his
colleagues.
Martin Cake.
Is that the best name ever?
I mean, could we just take oneminute to appreciate the
amazingness of having the lastname of Cake?
I would love that.
(24:24):
Cake.
SPEAKER_01 (24:24):
I'll bet I'll bet he's a sweetheart.
SPEAKER_00 (24:26):
Uh he he'd have to be.
Everyone would expect that.
SPEAKER_01 (24:30):
I would expect that.
Also, I want a piece of cake.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (24:34):
Right?
I know.
And I'm like, damn it, now Ineed cake.
Any excuse.
Okay.
In all seriousness, though, thispaper really does deliver on
that promise.
Because at its core, it'sasking, why is veterinary work
meaningful?
And how does that meaningactually contribute to our
well-being?
And what I appreciate right outof the gate is that the authors
(24:56):
challenge something I think thatmany of us have experienced.
They point out that a lot ofwell-being education in
veterinary medicine focuses onthings like stress management,
coping skills, preventingburnout, which are important.
They also raise this concernthat if we only focus there, we
may unintentionally start toframe the profession itself as
(25:18):
something that drains ourwell-being.
And that's a pretty big deal.
Because if that becomes thedominant narrative, we start to
approach the work as somethingthat we have to protect
ourselves from instead ofsomething that can actually
contribute to our well-being.
So this is where the paperintroduces a really important
concept.
And yes, it's a big word, butstick with me.
(25:41):
It's eudaimonic well-being.
Now, this is different from theidea of well-being just as
feeling good or being happy oravoiding stress.
Instead, it defines well-beingas living a life that is
meaningful, purposeful, andgrowth-oriented.
So it includes things likedeveloping your skills,
(26:01):
contributing to something biggerthan yourself, building
meaningful relationships andengaging in work that matters.
And when you hear thatdefinition, it sounds an awful
lot like veterinary medicine,right?
So the authors take that a stepfurther and they ask what
specifically about veterinarymedicine contributes to this
(26:23):
kind of well-being?
And what they find is actuallypretty consistent across their
research.
They highlight things likeintellectual challenge, variety
in our work, helping animals,supporting clients,
relationships with othercolleagues, and opportunities
that we have for constant growthand learning.
And one of the more interestinginsights here is that things
(26:46):
like financial reward areactually not primary drivers of
satisfaction.
It's much more about meaning,connection, and growth.
So we start to see that thefoundation for well-being is not
something separate from work.
It's actually embedded withinthe work itself.
Then this paper pulls all ofthis together into a model.
(27:09):
And without getting too deepinto the theory, it basically
maps veterinary work into somecore drivers of well-being.
Things like engagement, beingchallenged, using your skills,
getting into the zone, right?
Meaning, helping animals,helping people, contributing to
something bigger than yourself.
(27:30):
Relationships, connection withyour colleagues, your team, your
clients, and accomplishment,solving cases, learning,
growing, developing mastery overtime.
Now, when I read this, I grinnedfrom ear to ear.
Because if you've been listeningto us for a while, you've
hopefully listened to our veryfirst episode.
And you'll remember that Dr.
(27:51):
Seligman's model for humanthriving includes all of these
things.
Hello, Perma.
So both Dr.
Seligman and these authors agreethat when those elements are
present, they contribute to adeeper sense of well-being.
It's not just, yeah, I had agood day, but rather the work
that I'm doing matters.
(28:12):
Now, this, Josh, is where itgets really interesting because
the authors also acknowledgesomething that we already know
to be true, that veterinarymedicine is stressful.
In fact, most veterinariansreport both high levels of
stress and high levels of jobsatisfaction at the same time.
So here we are, right back inthat tension of what we were
talking about earlier.
(28:33):
How can something feel soexhausting and yet deeply
fulfilling?
And the Kate Cruise answer thatthey don't cancel each other
out, but rather both exist atthe same time.
So I think the big takeaway hereis that yes, veterinary medicine
has the potential to be apowerful source of well-being.
(28:54):
But that potential depends onhow the work is experienced.
Because if the environment makesit difficult to connect with
others, use your skills,continue growing, feel
supported, and experience thatmeaning in the work, then even
deeply meaningful work can startto feel draining.
But when those elements aresupported, that same work can
(29:18):
become a source of energy,purpose, and yeah, even
thriving.
So for me, the paper does notanswer the question is vetmed
hard?
Come on, we already know that itis.
What it does is it shifts theconversation to what is it about
this work that can help usthrive?
And maybe more importantly, howcan we do more of that?
(29:41):
So, Josh, there's a lot in herebecause ultimately this paper is
making a pretty strong claim.
It's essentially saying that VetMed, as we experience it right
now, already contains many ofthe ingredients that can support
our well-being.
And as we were prepping for thisepisode, I learned something
really exciting.
This isn't the first time thatyou've read this paper.
(30:03):
In fact, this paper was kind offoundational for you and
Flourish.
So, given that a few years havegone by since you first read it,
I would love to hear more.
Where do you stand with all ofthis?
What still rings true after allthese years?
SPEAKER_01 (30:19):
Um, yeah, all of it.
It's really cool for me to thinkthis paper was published in
2015.
So 11 years ago now.
Um, and I remember when I firstcame across it, it was um in my
master's program, and I waslooking for well-being work
specifically in the veterinaryspace, and it was there, there
(30:40):
wasn't a lot.
In fact, it might have been thispaper.
Um, Martin Cake was involved inhe, I mean, he's been involved
in a lot of research.
I can't remember if it wasexactly this paper or another
one, but he he did kind of asystematic review of the
literature to find like stufffocused on well-being and really
um identified that like exactlywhat you said, that like a lot
(31:01):
of the research that was uh sortof under the umbrella of quote
well-being really was ill-beingresearch in veterinary medicine,
not well-being research.
And so there really wasn't alot.
Um, since then, in the last 11years, there's been a slow but
steady growth in the library ofwork specifically focused on
well-being, some of which umwe've been involved in, uh,
(31:25):
which is great.
I still firmly stand on theground that Cake and his
colleagues were trying to stakeout here.
If all we do is focus on theproblems within veterinary
medicine, all we will see areproblems in veterinary medicine.
But the reality is thatdifficult work is also
meaningful work.
And if we can find a waysystemically to help see that,
(31:46):
then the difficulty will beworth it to the human beings
involved in it.
And we just have to, I think youjust have to do a better job.
I don't know that we've gotten alot better at it in the last
decade since this paper cameout, but I'm very hopeful that
we will continue to to improvein these areas.
SPEAKER_00 (32:03):
Well, and I think that's why conversations like
this are so important that therecognition that we might need
to like shift the focus of theseconversations completely and go
in a different direction andstop asking how do we protect
people from this work, butrather ask questions like, how
do we create environments thathave the capacity to strengthen
(32:28):
and stretch and sustain peoplein this work?
Because that's more focused onthe type of well-being that can
build us up, right?
And can really matter.
SPEAKER_01 (32:42):
Yeah, no, I totally totally agree.
This paper really impacted theway that I um think about how I
express these things to people.
It was it was really comingacross this paper and then some
of the, you know, obviously someof Seligman's work and and all
of that that got me thinking andthe metaphor that you've heard
me weave a million times forpeople, this uh idea of
well-being as a garden.
(33:02):
Uh, and so if you think aboutveterinary well-being as the
garden, um, you know, a gardenhas dirt and soil, the nutrients
within the soil, the thingsyou're trying to grow, uh, the
sunlight, all those kinds ofthings.
I think that that a lot of thislike well-being as ill-being
prevention focus is really aboutweed management in a garden.
(33:23):
It's like it's saying, hey,there are things growing here
that we don't like, they don'tsmell good, they don't look
good, they don't feel good, weneed to get rid of those things.
That's what weed management isin a garden.
And weed management is anessential part of gardening.
You can't actually keep a gardenlong-term healthy and well if
you're not managing the weeds.
I think the problem is that wefocus so much on the weed
(33:46):
management that we forget aboutall the other parts of keeping a
healthy garden.
And if all we ever do is weedmanagement, first of all, that
is not an endeavor that can everbe achieved.
Like it's not possible to removeall the stressors and challenges
from veterinary work.
You will never pull all theweeds.
We can't do that.
Does it mean we should ignorethe weeds?
(34:07):
No, if we ignore the weeds, theythey can become noxious and take
over, and then we have a weedgarden and not the actual garden
we want.
So we have to do weedmanagement, we just have to
approach it in a thoughtful andnuanced way and realize that
there are some weed managementwe just can't continue doing.
But even if we could, let's justimagine for a moment that we we
(34:27):
could successfully do that.
We could get rid of all theweeds.
Great.
What's left?
Patch of dirt.
SPEAKER_00 (34:33):
A real pretty patch of dirt.
SPEAKER_01 (34:35):
Yeah, exactly, right?
A weedless patch of dirt.
Like, even if we could eliminateall the stressors and challenges
and barriers and difficulties ofveterinary medicine, all we
would do is create a stress-freeprofession.
But a stress-free profession isnot the same as a thriving
profession.
It's not the same as growing agarden.
Well-being requires both weedmanagement and cultivation.
(34:58):
It requires us to take fertileseeds, the people of VetMed, and
put them into nutrient-richsoil.
These are the workplaceenvironments that we work in,
and make sure that we aremaintaining those nutrients
because they're going to getused up over time, right?
A plant will eventually extractall the nitrogen and phosphorus
from the soil, and we have toadd more.
That's what we do withfertilizer.
(35:20):
And then we also have to waterthese things.
We have to make sure that it hasthe appropriate amount of
sunlight and that, you know,we're planting different things
at the right season for them.
And yes, we're going to be doingweed management along the way,
but we have to do both of thesethings.
And if we don't do both of thesethings, we're never going to
grow the beautiful fruits andveggies and flowers that we want
to grow in our gardens.
(35:40):
That's, I think, essentiallywhat Cake is saying.
And so that's sort of my bigtakeaway in the last 11 years,
nothing about that has changed.
SPEAKER_00 (35:48):
Yeah.
So that balance is kind ofcoming back into the
conversation, right?
The importance of balancing yourweed management with your
cultivation of the beans and thepeppers and the tomatoes and you
know, whatever else is growingin your garden.
I'm totally a vegetable gardenperson.
I couldn't grow flowers if youlike, there's no way.
(36:09):
Veggies, maybe, maybe.
Um, so we're gonna go there.
But don't don't ignore either ofthem because if you do that,
neither of them are gonnathrive.
That it's really like a balance.
SPEAKER_01 (36:23):
Yeah, yes, and I'm gonna push back on the word
balance a bit because I thinkthat balance evokes equality.
Okay, people think of balance aslike I have equal weight on both
sides and therefore it isbalanced.
Sure.
And I don't think well-being,using this garden metaphor, is
about balance in in that liketraditional sense.
Um it's it's about beingthoughtful on how we balance
(36:45):
things.
Uh, and so what I mean by that,Annie, is like, yes, when we
have a garden, we need to doweed management.
You're gonna go out to thegarden and periodically pull
some weeds out, right?
But every single day you'rewatering that garden.
And and maybe even with morefrequency than uh the weed
management, you're gonna beadding fertilizer.
Every single day that gardenneeds sunlight on it.
(37:08):
Whenever the things come up thatcould potentially threaten it,
we want to be proactive aboutit, right?
Like if there's gonna be afreeze and we've planned the
things a little bit early, youmight want to cover those things
up so that those veggies don'tdie when the hard freeze comes
or when the snow falls.
These are all things that we'redoing on the cultivation side
that probably happen with a bitmore frequency and
intentionality than the weedmanagement.
(37:29):
So, what I'm saying is that wehave to do weed management.
There's got to be stressprevention.
We have to have like goodstructures in place to uh do
what we can to mitigate, or ifwe possibly can prevent
occupational burnout.
Absolutely.
And showing people the evidenceof their contributions is not
something that happens once ayear.
That's not cultivation.
(37:49):
You don't go to your garden andwater it once in April and then
expect to go back in Septemberand find that it's produced
fruit.
SPEAKER_00 (37:57):
Yeah, it's a constant effort.
Yes, it's a constant effort tomanage the things that you want
to grow in your garden.
SPEAKER_01 (38:06):
100%.
SPEAKER_00 (38:07):
Yeah, that's great.
That's a beautiful picture, abeautiful metaphor, a way to
think of it.
I love that.
And now I want salad with mycake.
So there we are.
Okay, so this is the part wherewe get to shift and think about
(38:42):
what we can actually do withthis.
Because this is not just aninteresting idea.
If this paper is right, which Ifeel like you and I think it
kind of is, the goal here is notto just add something entirely
new.
It's actually to make better useof what's already there.
And I think there's a couple ofreally practical ways that we
can do that.
(39:02):
To me, one way is that we canstart getting better at making
meaning visible in theday-to-day work.
Because one of the things wetalked about earlier is that the
meaning is already there.
It's in your patient care, it'sin your client relationships,
it's in problem solving, it's inyour teamwork, right?
In a busy clinic, those moments,they come and go quickly.
(39:26):
And if nobody slows down longenough to acknowledge them, they
just disappear into the noise ofthe day, especially if that's
what our brains are already usedto doing.
So start noticing and callingout those moments.
And no, it does not have to besome big, formal, time-consuming
thing.
It can absolutely be 10 secondsin the middle of the shift, just
(39:49):
naming what you saw and why itmattered.
Hey, Sam, I noticed that youtook an extra minute to make
sure that Doc's fly mask wasn'trubbing on that spot under his
jaw.
And I know that that's going tomake him more comfortable while
he's here for Q4 iMeds for thenext two weeks.
It can be a quick end-of-the-dayquestion like, what went well
today?
I love this question because itintentionally looks to highlight
(40:11):
strengths.
And hey, if you're up for a morepowerful lift, maybe consider a
board or a Slack channel thatsays something like, today we
helped blank.
And encourage people, yourselfincluded, to fill in that blank
every day.
All of these ideas, they'remeant to intentionally shift our
attention from what's wrong towhat matters.
(40:34):
No, we're not ignoring theproblems, right?
We're not ignoring the weeds.
We are just putting focus andmaking effort to intentionally
pay attention to the veggies, tothe peppers, to the tomatoes, to
the cabbage, to the lettuce inyour garden.
Now, the second super cool wayto build on this is slightly
(40:54):
different because this one'sabout something just a little
bit more personal.
I have a feeling, Josh, thatyou'll agree with me when I say
that not everybody experiencesmeaning in the same way, even
within the same clinic.
One person might find meaning inbuilding relationships with
clients, or somebody else mightfind it when they solve a really
complex case.
And somebody else on the teammight light up when they're
(41:17):
teaching or mentoring orsupporting a new hire.
So to me, the question becomesdo we actually know what makes
work meaningful for the peopleon our team?
Because if we don't, then we arejust assuming and guessing.
So to me, one really practicalway is to get curious and start
(41:39):
asking, which may sound obvious,but it's not always something
that we do consistently.
Getting curious can be as simpleas a question like, hey Josh,
when do you feel most engaged orenergized during the day here?
Or even what are the moments atwork that remind you why you
chose this profession in thefirst place?
(42:00):
You could work those questionsinto your next one-on-one, into
your next team meeting.
Because when we start tounderstand those answers, we
begin to do something really,really powerful, especially as
leaders.
We are able to createopportunities for meaningful
moments to happen.
I mean, how cool would it be tolearn that Chase gets really
(42:22):
excited and lights up when he'sable to mentor and teach new
hires and then be able to givehim the chance to do just that?
Because now we are not justhoping that people experience
meaning, we are intentionallycreating more of it.
But I know there's a ton more tothis, right?
A bunch of other ideas.
And Josh, having spent so muchtime thinking about this from
(42:45):
both the science side and thereal world side, I would love to
hear from you.
What are some realistic waysthat teams might bring this
stuff and put it into action intheir clinics and hospitals?
SPEAKER_01 (42:57):
Oh, I have about 74,000 different ideas here, but
I don't think we have enoughtime for that.
Um, I'm gonna share somethingwith you as I was listening to
you.
This was a recent thing that Iheard about a hospital that does
this, and they've done this foryears.
They consistently do it everysingle day, and they've done it
for years.
And um, to to watch like thehospital team like light up
(43:19):
about this thing was reallycool.
They do an end-of-day or anend-of-shift huddle that they
call plus delta.
SPEAKER_00 (43:26):
Ooh, okay.
SPEAKER_01 (43:27):
Yeah.
Uh, so plus delta, it's veryquick.
It's not meant to be like superlong conversation.
He said it takes roughly five toten minutes, and they've really
mastered it.
Plus delta is about the plus isum what went well today, what's
worth celebrating.
And, you know, they just theybring up uh whatever kind of
things there are, but every daythey do this.
(43:47):
And then the delta is what didwe learn?
And what did we learn could belike what's something that
didn't go well and we need to dodifferently next time, what's
some sort of barrier obstacle wecame up across, or what's a
problem that we solved thateverybody should hear about so
that they don't run in the sameproblem before, or whatever.
But that's it, plus delta.
So uh what what's worthcelebrating from today and what
(44:09):
did we learn?
And I think that's a a really,really great way to weave
meaning in through a ritual.
That's the thing that I think isreally important is um turning
these things into rituals.
Like Making sure that it's notjust a thing like, oh, you know,
practice manager.
Yeah, you know what?
I really, I really need to catchpeople doing stuff right more
(44:29):
often.
I mean, yeah, you do, but howwill you ensure that actually
happens?
That's what rituals help us do.
And when these rituals caninvolve the entire team or the
entire practice or an entiredepartment or whatever it might
be, um, and they can be stuckto.
That's the other thing.
Rituals become rituals becausethey are habitual, because
(44:51):
they're sacrosanct, because theyactually do them.
So ensuring that you stick withit long enough for it to start
to become sticky and impactful,I think it's really important.
So that that's just a couple ofthoughts.
SPEAKER_00 (45:02):
Well, and involving other people in that ritual,
right?
Like making it a group projectis more likely to make it stick.
And it's more likely that peopleare gonna remember, oh, wait a
minute, it's the end of the day.
We need to go through our whatwent well and what did we learn
question.
You'll have people that areexcited about it, like this
particular team, that isprobably holding that leader
(45:25):
accountable for asking them, oh,hey, don't forget, we gotta ask,
we gotta ask that questionbecause I have something I want
to contribute to that.
And so you've got that thatritual sort of accountability
through your team as well.
I love that.
SPEAKER_01 (45:38):
Yes.
And in this team, they actuallyaren't holding a single
individual accountable tofacilitate it, they all just do
it.
SPEAKER_00 (45:45):
Even though it's a good idea.
SPEAKER_01 (45:46):
So it's it's be it's become that habitual in their
organization that um it justgets run.
It doesn't matter who's there orwho's not there.
They don't wait for a manager todo it, it's just part of what
they do.
That's a true ritual.
SPEAKER_00 (45:59):
Heck yeah, it is.
Yep.
Yep, that's really cool.
I mean, I'm excited about that.
I'm not even part of the team,and I'm like, I want to know.
SPEAKER_01 (46:07):
Yeah, right.
unknown (46:08):
Very well.
SPEAKER_01 (46:08):
What's the plus delta today?
SPEAKER_00 (46:10):
Yeah.
Plus delta.
I like that.
Delta like change, right?
SPEAKER_01 (46:14):
Yes, exactly.
There we go.
SPEAKER_00 (46:16):
Yeah.
All right, cool, cool.
Glad glad I got there.
Well, all right.
As we wrap this up, I keepcoming back to this idea
because, like I said, the paper,it doesn't tell us that vetmed
is easy.
It doesn't ignore the stress,the complexity, or the very real
challenges that tend to comewith this work.
But what it did do is expand theconversation.
It reminded us that thisprofession is not just something
(46:39):
that takes from us, but it'salso something that has the
potential to give in reallymeaningful ways.
And I think the real takeawayhere is that we don't need to go
out and find meaning somewhereelse, that we have what we need.
And if we can get better atseeing it, supporting it, and
(47:00):
creating the conditions wherepeople can actually experience
it, then thriving in vetmed canstop feeling like this abstract,
far-off idea and start feeling alot more possible.
Now, speaking of far-off andabstract ideas, I happen to know
(47:20):
someone who is full of them.
Can you can you take a wildguess as to who that is?
SPEAKER_01 (47:27):
I'm guessing this person resides somewhere in the
southeast of the United Statesof America.
SPEAKER_00 (47:32):
Yeah, a particular peninsula.
Yep, called Florida.
This week's Florida Man is it'sit's good, but I'm gonna ask you
to stick with me on this onebecause it takes it takes a
little bit, and there there willbe a quiz at the end.
There is a follow-up questionthat I have for you.
SPEAKER_01 (47:51):
Okay, I'm ready.
SPEAKER_00 (47:52):
Florida man says intruder entered his home,
cleaned everything, and leftbehind a toilet paper rose.
Now, reading further down, thisparticular Florida man reported
that somebody broke into hishome, stole nothing, cleaned the
(48:14):
bedrooms, cleaned the bathrooms,they even put the kids' toys
away, and they left toilet paperroses on in the bathroom.
My follow-up question, and Istill don't know if I know the
answer, which one's the Floridaman?
Like the one that broke in andcleaned the house, or the one
(48:35):
that reported this happening?
Like, who's the Florida man inthis situation?
It's crazy.
SPEAKER_01 (48:41):
I maybe both.
SPEAKER_00 (48:43):
I it yeah, I think that's the only answer.
That they both they both arechampion Florida men.
SPEAKER_01 (48:50):
I need somebody to break into my house this week.
I need that exact person tobreak into my house this week.
SPEAKER_00 (48:57):
Like, right.
Oh, I got a job for you, Floridaman.
No kidding.
SPEAKER_01 (49:02):
That is amazing.
That is amazing.
SPEAKER_00 (49:04):
Yep, yeah.
And they left toilet paper roselike a hotel.
Yes.
Florida man is always thinkingabout kindness.
SPEAKER_01 (49:13):
Apparently.
That's good.
That's good.
SPEAKER_00 (49:17):
Right, right.
Well, thanks so much to all ofour listeners out there for
spending time with us in thelab.
Of course, we'll share the linkfor the paper and anything else
that we mentioned today in theshow notes.
And if if you enjoy your time inthe lab with us, be sure to
follow the show, drop us areview, and share this episode
with a friend or a colleague.
And we will see you next time inthe Veterinary Culture Lab.
(49:44):
Thanks for hanging out with usin the Veterinary Culture Lab,
powered by the science ofworkplace well-being, and
brought to you by FlourishVeterinary Consulting.
If today's episode sparked anidea, made you smile, or got you
thinking, hey, I should totallytry that.
Let us know.
What do you think?
Be sure to subscribe, share, andremember a thriving veterinary
(50:08):
culture is possible, and youdon't have to build it alone.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Betrayal Weekly
Betrayal Weekly is back for a new season. Every Thursday, Betrayal Weekly shares first-hand accounts of broken trust, shocking deceptions, and the trail of destruction they leave behind. Hosted by Andrea Gunning, this weekly ongoing series digs into real-life stories of betrayal and the aftermath. From stories of double lives to dark discoveries, these are cautionary tales and accounts of resilience against all odds. From the producers of the critically acclaimed Betrayal series, Betrayal Weekly drops new episodes every Thursday. If you would like to share your story, you can reach out to the Betrayal Team by emailing them at betrayalpod@gmail.com and follow us on Instagram at @betrayalpod and @glasspodcasts. Please join our Substack for additional exclusive content, curated book recommendations, and community discussions. Sign up FREE by clicking this link Beyond Betrayal Substack. Join our community dedicated to truth, resilience, and healing. Your voice matters! Be a part of our Betrayal journey on Substack.