June 30, 2026 • 51 mins
In this episode of The Veterinary Culture Lab, Andi and Josh explore what actually makes people stay in veterinary workplaces during difficult times—and why communication may be one of the most powerful retention tools we have.
Grounded in research on positive communication and The Great Resignation, this conversation unpacks how transparency, flexibility, support, and trust shape the way veterinary professionals experience stress, crisis, and connection at work. Because it turns out—people do not just remember the hard days…they remember how those hard days felt, and who they felt them with.
From COVID leadership lessons to everyday “mini-crises” inside veterinary hospitals, this episode highlights how communication is not just something teams do—it becomes part of the culture itself. And when leaders and coworkers communicate with honesty, humanity, and care, resilience becomes something people build together instead of carrying alone.
You’ll hear:
• Why positive communication plays a major role in employee retention
• What veterinary teams remember most during stressful or uncertain moments
• How transparency and flexibility strengthen trust during crisis
• Why “micro moments” of support can shape workplace culture over time
• How structuration theory explains the way communication creates culture
• Why most veterinary communication training misses the other 98% of workplace conversations
• Practical ways leaders and teams can create cultures people actually want to stay in
Whether you are leading through uncertainty, navigating a difficult season with your team, or simply trying to create a workplace where people feel supported and valued, this episode offers a practical and hopeful look at how communication shapes culture—and why the way we talk to each other during hard times matters more than we think.
Resource Links:
Episode Article:
Title: The Structuration of Positive Communication Experiences: The Case of the Great Resignation
Authors: Elizabeth A. Williams , Jennifer S. Linvill, Emeline Ojeda-Hecht, Meghan R. Cosgrove,Autumn Buzzetta, and Abby Konkel
DOI: 10.1177/23294884241263553
Flourish Academy - Certificate in Cultivating Positive Team Communication
What Do You Think? Reach out to us and let us know at Info@flourish.vet
Your Hosts:
Andi Davison LVT, CAPP, APPC
Josh Vaisman MAPPCP, CCFP
At Flourish Veterinary Consulting we renovate veterinary cultures. We diagnose what’s working, blueprint what’s next, and train every team member - blending positive psychology with real-world experience - so thriving becomes the norm, not the myth.
Timestamps:
00:00 Welcome and Catch Up
06:17 Leading Through COVID
14:58 Study Overview and Methods
21:36 Key Findings Positive Communication
23:12 Why Leaders Struggle to Be Transparent
25:41 Flexibility Builds Trust
26:47 Flexibility Builds Culture
32:35 Everyone Shapes Culture
48:09 Florida Man Finale
Headed to WVC Nashville this August? We'd LOVE to meet you! Andi will be speaking August 16 & 17, and Josh will be there too. Stop by a session and introduce yourself - we always love meeting members of the Veterinary Culture Lab community. Grab your boots, bring your curiosity, and come say hello!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_02 (00:04):
Welcome to the Veterinary Culture Lab, where
science meets real-worldapplication.
I'm Andy Davison.
SPEAKER_00 (00:11):
And I'm Josh Weissman.
Together we'll show you anevidence-based blueprint for
renovating culture in yourveterinary team.
One episode at a time.
SPEAKER_02 (00:23):
When crisis hits in veterinary medicine, people
remember how they retreated.
Today we'll explore the rolethat positive communication
plays in whether teams pulltogether or simply walk away.
Well, I'm very hydrated, I cantell you that.
(00:45):
Good and hydrated.
SPEAKER_00 (00:47):
Good and hydrated.
Uh, early May 2026.
Tell me what the early Mayweather is in uh O'Cala,
Mikinope, Florida.
SPEAKER_02 (00:58):
We just got our first like big summer storm
yesterday.
We had been in a seriousdrought.
We still are in a seriousdrought.
Like there's no doubt about it.
We're super behind the deficit,blah, blah, blah.
That's big topics ofconversation around here.
Um, but we got our first runoutside, dance in the rain.
Thank goodness it's finallyraining storm yesterday.
(01:19):
Uh, and now, of course, it ishumid as all get out.
It feels like I think it's 92degrees out right now when it's
actually only 80 degrees.
So it's the humidity has set in.
Like we are right with it's justit has just happened.
SPEAKER_00 (01:37):
That's that's the ick.
Um, but so wait, did you godance in the rain when the rain
came?
SPEAKER_02 (01:43):
Um, I didn't because I was in the middle of doing
other things, but there wasdefinitely like party texting
between me and all of my horsegirls.
Oh, thank goodness it's finallyraining.
We're gonna get grass in thepastures.
Yay, the ground isn't gonna beso hard, like all of the
celebratory horse things that weget excited about when it rains.
SPEAKER_00 (02:03):
That's awesome.
Um, scout, how does Scout reactto the rain?
Like I know Scout barks atthunder, but but is Scout like
uh, I want to go dance in therain crazy, or is Scout like not
a chance, I'm not gonna melt?
SPEAKER_02 (02:18):
It depends.
If it's thundering, oh yeah,she's out in it because she
wants to bark at it, she wantsto run around.
She's very lieutenant Dan in thesituation.
Like she doesn't care if it'slightning, if it's raining, she
wants to be out in it and istalking back to the storm.
If it's just raining withnothing exciting happening, she
(02:40):
kind of finds a way to sneakunder the deck and do her stuff
and then come back in.
So it's very dependent on thenoise factor.
SPEAKER_00 (02:48):
Okay.
So so when there's no thunder,it's not that she's indifferent
to the rain, it's that she wouldprefer not to be out there, but
she can do it.
SPEAKER_02 (02:55):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (02:56):
Right.
Okay.
I love her, by the way.
SPEAKER_02 (02:58):
She is she's the sassiest, most amazing little
tiny ball of floof ever.
What about Rue?
What does Rue think about rainand storms?
SPEAKER_00 (03:09):
Um, Rue is adamantly opposed to getting wet from
water that falls from above.
Uh he yeah, he he has zerodesire.
The snow, however, like I'mpretty sure that Rue's primary
circuitry lives in his like padsof his feet because they get
into the snow, and then there'sa short circuit that occurs, and
(03:32):
he it like turns into like apsychopathic six-month-old puppy
bouncing around like an idiot.
It is hilarious.
SPEAKER_01 (03:38):
Oh, I thought it's so cute.
SPEAKER_00 (03:40):
Oh my god, it is so adorable, it's super fun, but
not the rain.
He is he's opposed to the rain.
And of course, we we don't wedid have snow, I don't know, a
week and a half ago, andyesterday was yesterday or the
day before was like almost 90.
So, you know, Colorado in thespring.
SPEAKER_02 (03:56):
Yeah, it is the season.
SPEAKER_00 (03:58):
Andy, I have a question for you that I'm hoping
you can help me settle.
Greta and I um were having thisuh discussion earlier, and we
both kind of landed on differentsides of the coin.
So I feel like you can be likethe the, I don't know, deciding
vote.
SPEAKER_02 (04:13):
Oh, it's a lot of pressure.
SPEAKER_00 (04:15):
I I it's I mean, it's it's a fairly low pressure
question.
Um, you know that Greta and Idon't have children, and I know
that you and Mike also don'thave children, so I don't feel
like we're experts here, whichis why this was like a little
bit of a subjectiveconversation.
But but the question that wewere struggling with is if if
you have a child and that childrefuses to sleep during nap
(04:36):
time, does that make them guiltyof resisting arrest?
SPEAKER_02 (04:40):
I'm gonna go with yes, and I'm also gonna go with
I would be unable to like putthis rule into play because I'd
be laughing so hard.
SPEAKER_00 (04:48):
So hard.
SPEAKER_02 (04:49):
Um thinking of yeah, this dad joke.
SPEAKER_00 (04:51):
Yeah.
Um, on to more, I guess, quote,serious things.
Um, today, Andy, we're gonnatalk about a paper that really
focuses on why people stay intheir workplaces, which to me
feels like especially refreshingbecause I feel like a lot of the
conversation in VetMed over thepast few years is really focused
on kind of the opposite side ofthat coin.
Instead of asking the question,which you know the power of
(05:14):
questions, Andy.
You're as big a fan ofAppreciative Inquiry and David
Cooper Eiter as I am.
Uh, the questions that we askinfluence what comes next,
right?
And I feel like a lot of thequestion that we've been asking
in VetMed is not what makespeople stay in their job.
We've been asking the question,why do people leave their job?
Which feels like they're verysimilar, but actually it turns
(05:35):
out that we get really differentanswers.
So, so this paper is reallyabout the what makes people
stay.
And there really is somethingpowerful in asking.
When things are hard, whenchallenges emerge, when we face
stressors and obstacles andadversities, what is it that
makes a team member say, Yeah,this is tough, but I'm still in
(05:56):
it for the long term.
I want to stick around here.
But another way, what ifemployee retention wasn't really
about perks and pay and all thethings that we think will hold
on to people, but ratherretention was about the memories
that people build duringdifficult times.
And that's kind of what thispaper is really about.
(06:17):
Uh, before we get to the paper,though, Andy, I wanted to ask
you a question.
Before you joined Flourish, youwere the technician manager in
an academic setting, leading avery large team of technicians
in the large animal teachinghospital that you worked at.
You were in that role during areally unique time in our
history.
You were in that role duringCOVID.
So you were in this leadershipposition during COVID, but kind
(06:39):
of a middle management position.
So you were leading this team,but there were other people that
you reported to that had a lotmore power than you.
What I want to ask you to do isI want you to think back to like
when shit really hit the fan andthe COVID crisis was at its peak
and it was pure chaos and nobodyknew what was going on.
In particular, I want you torecall, if you can, during that
specific time, the interactionsthat you and others around you
(07:04):
had with hospital leadership,with like the core top
leadership.
And then I've got sort of twoquestions for you in one.
Part one is how would youdescribe the leadership's
communication during that crisistime?
Would you say it was positive?
Would you say it was negative,or would you say it was kind of
neutral, somewhere in themiddle?
(07:24):
And then secondly, if you couldgive some examples to help me
and our listeners kind ofunderstand what led you to
choose that?
Like why would you describe itas positive, negative, or
neutral?
SPEAKER_02 (07:35):
Thinking back about this was quite the trip down
memory lane, right?
I mean, on one hand, it feltlike it was a lifetime ago that
this happened.
But on the other hand, it wasliterally just last week.
I mean, it was just insane tothink about everything that we
went through and how long, quoteunquote, long ago it was, but
(07:59):
how recent it was as well.
And I think VetMed experiencedthis in a very unique way.
And I was in it.
I mean, I was in it up to myeyeballs during COVID.
And being in an academichospital that was huge and I
mean, couldn't stop moving.
I mean, there were no options toshut down, shorten hours, any of
(08:22):
that, because of the type ofenvironment that I was in.
Uh, communication was huge whenit came to COVID.
And thinking back all theseyears later on how that went
down and what that felt like, Ihonestly would say, COVID aside,
the experience was actuallyfairly positive.
(08:44):
And for me, it had to do withthe level of communication that
was happening.
So, as you'll all remember,right?
Everything changed from one dayto the next.
There were different rules,there were different
suggestions, there weredifferent ideas, there were
different findings, there wereit, it was, you never knew.
(09:06):
Any every morning you went intowork, you weren't really sure
exactly what had happenedovernight, what was new, and
what was going to change.
That led to a lot ofconversations between like the
upper management, middlemanagement, which is where I
lived, and you know, the teamsout in the floor doing the
(09:26):
things.
And this constant change andthese constant meetings actually
encouraged communication.
I think that at first it wasviewed a touch negatively
because people did think, oh myGod, now what?
Right?
Now what's gonna change?
What we we were doing this allalong, and now all of a sudden
(09:48):
we have to do this totallydifferently.
But I think over time theystarted to realize that it was
like consistent, constantchange, and that the change was
being fueled by leadership'sdesire to protect us as humans,
right?
Nobody knew what was going on.
Nobody knew what to expect.
(10:10):
Everybody was nervous, everybodywas scared.
This was brand new territory foreverybody.
And the leadership team that Idealt with was actually pretty
damn transparent about that.
They shared that fear, theyshared that uncertainty, right?
Of well, we have no idea what'sgoing on.
(10:30):
This is what we know now, butthat might change in five
minutes.
Like, and they include theyincluded me and they included
most of us in on some of thoseconversations.
So while they had to set thepin, right?
They had to say, for example, weneed to find a way to function
as an academic teachinghospital, but minimize sort of
(10:51):
the quote unquotecross-contamination of shifts so
that if one shift goes down, thewhole entire hospital doesn't,
you know, all of a sudden turninto a ghost town.
SPEAKER_01 (11:01):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (11:02):
What do we think some of those options could be?
Because nobody had the answerbecause we'd never done this
before.
And so I felt very included inthese conversations.
My leadership team knew that Iknew what my crew was doing,
what they needed to do, who theplayers were, what might work
and what didn't work.
(11:23):
And they listened to me when Ishared some of those things.
And they were transparent aboutthe goals that we needed to
reach, right?
Like the things that we neededto accomplish, the way that we
needed to make sure to balanceeverything.
And that accompanied with thathuman sort of empathy, emotion
(11:43):
that came with what the heck isthis, right?
Like, what is this COVID thing?
How are we going to manage this?
What's going on now?
I want my team to be healthy.
I want to protect them fromanything that, you know, might
come rolling down the blocktomorrow because nobody knew
what the deal was behind the,you know, this new virus.
(12:05):
And so that became very, veryapparent.
The willingness to include us inon decisions, how we were going
to make these things happen, thewillingness to be transparent
about, well, this is what weknow and this is what we've got
to do.
And, you know, these are ourthoughts.
And that willingness to bevulnerable and show us that like
(12:27):
we were humans and that theycared.
And we we knew that some ofthese crazy rules or these
middle shift changes were simplybecause they didn't want us to
get sick.
SPEAKER_00 (12:42):
So it sounds to me like um you would describe it as
positive during that time thatsenior leadership's
communication towards the restof the team was positive.
And some of the things that madeit positive for you was that it
was consistent, it wastransparent, it was candid, it
conveyed care, it was inclusive,and it showed a lot of trust in
(13:05):
the organization.
And the communication wascentered around the well-being
of the team in balance with theneeds of the hospital.
SPEAKER_02 (13:14):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (13:14):
Yeah, that's great.
That's awesome.
And that stuff matters becauseit turns out that teams really
remember how their organizationstreat them when things are
messy, scary, uncertain, orinconvenient, right?
Like when we have these kinds ofcrises, how we are treated makes
a difference.
What is it that Maya Angelousaid?
Something like, uh, it's notwhat you say or do, it's how you
(13:34):
make people feel that matters,or something along those lines.
I love that quote.
SPEAKER_02 (13:38):
That's one of my favorite Maya Angelou quotes.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (13:41):
Oh, yeah, it's awesome.
So here's the thing, Andy.
Moments like that aren't just ina pandemic.
I mean, COVID is like a reallyacute example of what a crisis
can be like, but in veterinaryhospitals, these kinds of
moments actually happen with agreat deal of frequency.
You know, things like thebrutally understaffed Monday,
those back to back to backcranky clients, or, you know,
(14:01):
that day where you have to workthrough three euthanasia around
a couple puppy visits and you'redoing all that emotional code
switching.
Uh those are all really, reallydifficult moments that can feel
like mini crises.
Our teams are watching how wecommunicate during these tough
times.
And that communication, itbecomes a really big part of the
culture that people remember.
(14:22):
It shapes how they make meaningof the hard work that they do,
of the things that they'reenduring.
And there's a really bigdifference between today was
awful, but we were in ittogether.
And today was awful, and Ireally felt like I endured it
alone.
So maybe the problem isn't thatwe lack resilience in veterinary
medicine.
(14:42):
Maybe the problem is we askpeople to spend their resilience
capital alone too often untilthey decide to head out the
front door for good.
And we all know about theturnover problem that veterinary
practices face these days, whichis why I think this paper is
such a cool paper for us.
So the study that I've broughtto this episode is titled The
Structuration of PositiveCommunication Experiences: The
(15:04):
Case of the Great Resignation byElizabeth A.
Williams and several of hercolleagues.
Now, don't worry, Andy.
We're gonna explain that funnyword structuration a little bit
later in the episode, I promise.
But Andy, I I I was reallycurious before we do that.
Can you say structuration fivetimes really fast?
SPEAKER_02 (15:22):
Um, no, if you want a good laugh.
Because I kept wanting to makeit structurization.
And I'm like, no, that's noteven that's not even letters in
the word, Andy.
SPEAKER_00 (15:32):
What's a set of Z here?
SPEAKER_02 (15:34):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (15:35):
You know, I so often in vetmed and in other
industries, we study turnoverand why people leave workplaces.
But this study, as we mentionedearlier, it took a peek at the
other side of that coin.
It really focused in on whatmakes people stay.
In particular, why people staythrough and beyond a crisis?
(15:55):
In this case, it was the COVIDpandemic and then the ensuing
great resignation that sort ofcame, you know, in and after
that.
The researchers ended up askingwhat role, if any, did positive
communication play in helpingpeople want to stay in their
job, which is of coursesomething that you and I are
super jazzed about uh given thegraduate program that we did and
(16:16):
our course in uh positivecommunication in veterinary
medicine.
So the the research, the studywas designed around two big
questions.
Number one, how didorganizational communication
create positive workplaceexperiences during the COVID
crisis?
And then number two, why didteam members choose to stay in
(16:36):
their job during the ensuinggreat resignation?
To answer those questions, theyconducted some pretty extensive
interviews of 25 people who hadstayed with the same
organization from January 2020,so just before COVID really kind
of went bonkers through March2023.
The interviews were one-on-one.
(16:57):
They were semi-structured.
Uh, semi-structured, by the way,just means that they had a list
of sort of interview questionsthat they went through, but they
sort of followed the flow of theinterview.
They may have had probingquestions that they asked or uh
additional questions beyond, butthey were always sure to ask
those specific researchquestions as well.
And then the interviews lastedsomewhere between 30 and 90
(17:18):
minutes.
Uh, they resulted in a lot ofdata, nearly 500 pages of
single-spaced transcript data.
That's a lot to look through.
They then used a uh a dataanalysis approach called the
frenetic iterative approach,which probably sounds like
something you'll need a degreein Latin and a pot of coffee to
fully understand.
I get it, but I'll explain itreally quickly.
(17:40):
Basically, they took that nearly500 pages of data and they just
read all the interviews over andover and over and were looking
for patterns.
Then they compared the patternsto existing theory in the
literature and then repeated theprocess consist while
consistently asking, hey, whatis both congruent with existing
theory and actually useful here?
(18:02):
What are the things that we'repulling out here that really
match up with the theory in theliterature and can be useful in
the real world?
You could kind of think of thislike renovating an old hospital
building, right?
So you buy an old creakybuilding, you're gonna start up
a new practice there.
You're not gonna walk throughthat place once and then
immediately know what to keep,what to tear out, or tweak,
right?
You're gonna take time toinspect it.
(18:24):
You're gonna revisit things,you're gonna tap on walls,
you're gonna look at blueprints,you're gonna talk to the people
who are gonna use that spaceevery day.
And then through all of thatsort of subjective data
collection, the real structurethat you have and the one that
you want will start to revealitself.
That's basically what a freneticiterative approach is to this
(18:46):
kind of qualitative dataanalysis.
From a more technicalperspective, the researchers
basically started broad withwhat we call primary cycle
coding, the grouped patterns,and then they refined with
secondary coding and selectivecoding.
So, in other words, they justnarrowed with each round until
they had their final results.
Now, earlier I promised that Iwould explain structuration
(19:08):
theory, so I'm gonna do that.
But let me try and do that um ina way that hopefully doesn't
cause an allergic reactionrequiring a hit from the epi
pen.
Structuration is a theory abouthow people and systems shape
each other.
And this is one of the morepowerful theories, Andy.
I don't know about you, but whenwhen I first came across this in
our graduate uh studies, thisone really hit me kind of square
(19:31):
between the eyes.
You see, organizations haverules and resources.
Rules are kind of, you know, thehow we do thing here, how we do
things here, and those thingsmatter.
Uh and then resources are thetools, the knowledge, the
authority, the relationships,money, time, like all the stuff
that people use to get thingsdone according to the rules.
(19:51):
People then use those rules andresources every single day.
Or they don't.
Sometimes they break rules,sometimes they bend rules,
sometimes they do things alittle bit differently.
But either way, every time theyuse a rule or resource, or they
don't, they're reinforcing theexisting culture or they're
(20:12):
changing it.
People make culture, whichinfluences how people behave
within the culture, which makesor remakes the culture, which
influences the next set ofbehaviors that happen in that
environment, and round and roundand round we go.
Culture is not something weprescribe, culture is not
something we ascribe to.
It is both at the same time.
(20:33):
It's co-created.
So in a veterinary hospital, ifpeople skip lunch every day for
any reason, it doesn't matterwhy, people work through lunch
every day, then over timeskipping lunch becomes a
well-worn path in the culture.
It's like, you know, I don't domountain biking, but people who
mountain bike always talk about,you know, the the little the
tiny little path that you putyour your tire, your fat tire
(20:53):
through as you're going through.
That's kind of what happens.
We create sort of keeps peoplewithin quote unquote the lines
of how we do things here, whichis we don't take lunches.
But now let's say that all of asudden one day leaders start
saying things like, Hey, listen,Andy, I want you to take your
lunch today.
I'm gonna cover for you.
And then they make sure that youactually take your lunch.
(21:16):
Well, we can carve a new paththen.
If people actually take thebreak and they're actually
covered, then over time a newpath will emerge.
Hey, this is a place where wetake lunch.
That's structuration theory.
Andy, how are you feeling atthis point?
SPEAKER_02 (21:30):
Um, the Abby Pen is sitting here, but I'm not
actively reaching for it.
So we're doing best.
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (21:35):
Okay, I think I did a good job then.
Okay, so so let's return back tothe study.
What did they discover?
Well, I want to share four bigfindings today.
The first one is that positivecommunication, it isn't fluffy,
it's infrastructure.
Or at least it can and shouldbe.
So this study found that theprimary reason people stayed in
their job through this majorcrisis of COVID was their
experience with positivecommunication in the workplace.
(21:58):
Specifically, communication thatcan't Conveyed things like
flexibility, transparency,health and safety, support, a
lot of the kinds of things thatyou shared from your example,
Andy.
And the leaders genuinely caredabout the people that they led,
which is something you saidmultiple times.
You could kind of think of thisas like routine communication
that sounds a bit like thesephrases.
(22:19):
Hey guys, here's what we knowright now.
Here's what we don't know yet.
Right.
Or things like, here's whatwe're doing to protect you, to
protect the team, to protect theorganization.
Here's where we or you have someflexibility and latitude to make
your own decisions today.
Here's where we can't flex.
Here are the things that wereally have to stick to rigidly.
(22:41):
And here's why.
Here's how we're going to getthrough this together, right?
Those are hope-buildingstatements.
That kind of communication, whatit essentially does is it lowers
uncertainty and it strengthenstrust.
And then as a result, people arewilling to stay and use their
resilience capital to getthrough the tough time.
Andy, veterinary hospitals andorganizations, they face a lot
(23:02):
of challenges.
You and I know that.
And sometimes even crises.
And this can happen with morefrequency than maybe we would
like in veterinary settings.
When those situations come up,in your mind, just from your
personal opinion, what do youthink gets in the way of
veterinary leaders communicatingin this kind of positive way
(23:23):
with their teams?
SPEAKER_02 (23:25):
That's a really good question that has probably a
couple of different answers.
But the ones that came up for mewere the leaders' desire to fix
the problem.
They want to fix it for theirteam.
And they want to just go to theteam with an answer.
And they do that, I think,because they're trying to
(23:48):
protect the team.
But it comes across as a bit of,I don't know, lack of
transparency because they'recoming back with, well, what you
got to do is Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (23:57):
I I totally agree with that.
I I think that some of what I'mhearing in what you're saying is
that oftentimes veterinaryleaders show up in a way that
they think that they aresupposed to be the source of
problem solving all the timeperfectly.
And you didn't, yes.
SPEAKER_02 (24:13):
Well, I was just gonna add, I think that I mean,
the way that you rephrase thatis perfect.
And I think the reason that Ihad such a hard time putting the
words together for that isbecause I did that.
I did that.
I felt like that, that I had tohave the solution and to fix it
and to always know what theright answer was and to protect
my team in the process.
SPEAKER_00 (24:35):
Yeah.
No, it totally makes sense.
I also feel like I heard thiselement in what you were saying.
You didn't use this word, butwhat I kept hearing in my head
was thinking back to my coachingpsychology training when they
said that like a really goodcoach um maintains an even
playing ground, that they don'tposition themselves as the
expert or the, you know, theknow-it-all.
(24:57):
Uh, it it should be anadult-to-adult relationship.
And that sometimes what weunintentionally do as coaches is
we position ourselves as theparent.
And then that puts the thecoache in the position of child.
And I think that sometimesleaders do this too.
Again, you didn't say this, butit felt implied in what you were
saying that sometimes asleaders, we we take on this role
of parent and we look at ourteam as children.
(25:19):
Whether we're actually overtlydoing that or not, it's
happening maybe even a bitsubconsciously.
And when we step into that role,that means we have to always
have it together.
That means we have to be theemotional regulation, you know.
And the reality is you're in acrisis and you're a human being,
and so are they.
It's gonna be hard foreverybody.
Uh, sometimes that thattransparency is actually the
(25:40):
better approach.
People see right through thesort of like fake stoicism.
The other, the next um bigfinding from the paper that
really stood out to me is thatwhen times are hard, people
really need to feel trusted andsupported.
And providing flexibility isactually a great way to
accomplish both, which, youknow, hearkening back to what
you just said, Andy, if we'repositioning ourselves as the
(26:01):
be-all-know-all problem solvers,we're actually creating
inflexibility for our team.
We're telling them the only waythat you will get through this
is through me.
And so I better be right and youhave no say, right?
And so what they found in thestudy was that actually it's
quite the opposite, that leaderswho provide flexibility is a
really great way to build trustand show the team, I've got your
(26:24):
back.
So that flexibility, it seemedto help employees really feel
trusted and supported,confirming that they could
adjust to the shifting times andthat leadership believed in
their ability to adjust andflex.
During the pandemic, the theorganizations that allowed
people to work differently,whatever that meant for them,
that can be different fromorganization to organization,
(26:44):
even within an organization fromteam to team.
But those organizations thatallowed that kind of like work
flexibility ended up having alot more retention, people who
stayed instead of quit.
And over time, that flexibilityactually became part of the
enduring culture.
Remember structuration theorythat we talked about earlier?
Turning into a big piece of howpeople understood what the
(27:06):
organization was, you know,quote unquote about.
I like to think of flexibilityas renovating culture in a very
low impact way.
Instead of removing walls, we'rejust putting better hinges on
the doors, right?
So people have the ability tomove freely throughout the
organization.
Andy, listen, I I know that alot of these organizations
during COVID, they went tothings like work from home.
(27:27):
And I that that might not reallybe a big option for a lot of
veterinary professionals.
It's not like we can let peoplehop on Zoom to conduct a foreign
body surgery, at least not yet.
But I do think that workflexibility is an area that we
can really improve on inveterinary medicine.
And I have a sense that you'reprobably going to agree with
that.
So, with that in mind, I wascurious to ask you, what are one
(27:49):
or two ways that you thinkveterinary organizations of
whatever kind can give theirteams more flexibility in how
they work?
SPEAKER_02 (27:58):
I love this question and I love thinking about all
the different options out therethat could be implemented.
The first one that came to mindkind of did, kind of did involve
a little bit of work from homebecause I get it, you're right.
Not everybody can.
There's not always theopportunity, but there might be.
There might be.
I actually work with aveterinary clinic down the
(28:18):
street.
It's where Brody goes for his PTand his aqua tread and all of
that.
And whenever I contact them tomake an appointment, I'm talking
to the CSMer.
She works from home.
She works from home.
I know.
I thought that was really,really cool.
And that's a great example of anoption or a possible opportunity
(28:40):
to be flexible.
I don't know if she works fromhome every day.
I don't know if she does it acouple days a week.
I don't know, but that's areally neat option.
Another one that came to mindwas talk to your team about what
kind of work they want to do,right?
This kind of harkens to the ideaof job crafting.
So talk to your team about whatkind of work they want to do and
maybe find some moreopportunities for them to do it.
(29:02):
Yeah, it might not be every day,all the time, right?
But when the possibility comesup to, I don't know, get in the
truck and go to the track andtake, you know, a whole slew of
radiographs, and you know thatthis particular technician loves
that part and gets really jazzedabout it.
Cool.
There's an opportunity to beflexible.
Maybe swap them out with yoursurgery tech that day.
(29:24):
Another one that may or may notwork, right?
I know your listeners might rollyour eyes at this one.
Think about lunches or breaks.
Maybe there's some options to beflexible there.
Maybe you, you know, you want tomake sure everybody gets lunch
between, I don't know, 11 and 3,whatever.
But when you take that lunch,that's up to you, right?
(29:45):
Maybe there's some ways toencourage that flexible autonomy
that will give people thefeeling that they actually care
about us and they want to makesure that maybe if I wanted to
go to yoga over lunch and theclass was at 1:30, I could do
that because I've had the optionto take my lunch during this
flexible slot in the day.
Stuff like that.
SPEAKER_00 (30:05):
I love all of those ideas.
I mean, this is it's reallyabout what I'm hearing from you
is that it's it's really aboutjust think of something that you
can empower your team with tohave some form of decision
making over.
That's really what flexibilityis.
And whatever that is, towhatever extent, is going to
vary from team to team.
Uh, but it's about findingopportunities to give people
(30:26):
some more decision-making power.
I love it.
Third big takeaway from thepaper for me transparency is
emotional PPE.
You do you remember that buzzacronym?
Does that does that make youtwitch when you think about PPE
and COVID?
SPEAKER_02 (30:40):
Yeah.
Well, yeah, especially havinggone through COVID in the
academic world where we had tolike find it and get it and
distribute it and wear it, andwe had it and we didn't have it,
and all of that.
SPEAKER_00 (30:51):
Sorry for inciting the twitchiness again.
But yeah, transparency, it itreally is for teams, it really
is emotional PPE.
The the study authors, theresearchers, found that
participants felt more connectedto and confident in
organizations that reallycommunicated openly,
transparently, and in real timeor as close to it as feasible
(31:12):
during that crisis.
The authors describedtransparency as a positive
communication practice thathelped employees feel steadier
and more connected to theirworkplace.
Andy, I worry that too oftenveterinary leaders, like we said
earlier, adopt a bit of a heromindset or a parental mindset,
this belief that we always haveto have all the answers, all the
(31:32):
solutions, always be puttogether, gritty, resilient,
never show that you're crumblingor have a crack, right?
That influences what we shareand how we share it.
Like that changes our behavior.
And sometimes it changes it tothe detriment of our teams and
ultimately to ourselves.
The truth is, during a difficultchapter, like teams don't need
leaders who pretend thateverything is fine.
(31:54):
They need leaders who can beclear, honest, informative, and
all with the appropriate levelof hopefulness, optimism, and
humanity.
Uncertainty breeds stories.
And when we feed people falsenarratives, or we're really
selective about the littlecrumbs of information that we
give them, the very normal humanresponse that they're gonna have
(32:17):
is to craft a story thatHollywood horror film directors
would be envious of.
I mean, that's the reality.
That's what the human braindoes.
Transparency gives people fewerscary blanks to fill in.
It provides them a truer storythat they can build off of, and
they're going to be moreresilient because of that.
Lastly, fourth thing, whileleaders play a huge role,
(32:39):
everyone in the organizationcarries the culture.
This study found that positiveexperiences did not only come
from, quote, the organization insome weird abstract sense.
They also came from coworkersand leaders, local leaders,
people like you, Andy, when youwere in middle management.
Coworkers provided support andflexibility, and those local
leaders created positiveexperiences through
(33:00):
authenticity, care,vulnerability, and permission
for self-care.
With every action, every choice,and every conversation, every
single person on the team iseither reinforcing the old
structure or helping to build anew one.
Again, structuration.
The more power that they have inthe organization, absolutely the
more impact uh the kind ofstructure being built that
(33:22):
they're gonna have.
But everybody plays a part,which means that we can all make
things better if we want to.
We just have to do it.
Okay, Andy, I imagine at thispoint you're probably ready to
(33:54):
put these lessons to good use.
And I'm sure our listeners areas well.
Don't worry, guys, we got you.
So here are some of the waysthat you can use structuration
and the results of this study torenovate your veterinary culture
to become the one of yourdreams, or at least get it a
step closer to that.
The first idea that I wanted toshare is this idea of adding
this uh, here's why we're doingthis script to every change you
(34:16):
announce.
And I literally mean everychange.
Even if you're, I don't know,you're changing the way that
people clock in in the morning,whatever it is, adding that
here's why we're doing thisscript is really powerful.
The idea is pretty simple here.
So anytime you announce a changeof any kind, change to the
schedule, a new protocol, ashift in appointment flow, a
pricing update, a staffingdecision, new client
(34:37):
communication process.
Hey guys, we're completely uhtearing the team apart into
three separate groups that arenever going to see each other so
that we don't cross-contaminatewith this new virus.
Whatever it might be, just addone sentence prompt or a few
sentences that explain the whybehind it.
That's it.
Don't assume.
(34:57):
Because if you assume you'releaving people to create their
own Hollywood story in theirhead, in the absence of
explanation, that's what peoplewill do.
They're gonna build thatHollywood story, and usually the
story that they create is notgonna be very generous.
They might think things like,well, leadership obviously
doesn't care about us, orthey're just trying to squeeze
more out of us, or no oneunderstands what we're dealing
(35:18):
with here on the floor.
Oh, just another random rulesomebody made up in some, you
know, back corner room.
Transparency interrupts thatspiral.
A very good, here's why we'redoing this script, it's gonna
have four parts to it, Andy.
Okay, you ready?
Number one, name the changeclearly.
An example could be like, hey,Andy, starting Monday, we're
(35:39):
changing how same-day urgentcare appointments are added to
the schedule.
All right, so that's the clear,this is the change, and I'm
starting with that.
Number two, explain the why.
You know, we're doing this,Andy, because the current
process creates a lot ofbottlenecks for us, which pushes
lunches later and makes manydays feel like a nonstop
emergency to a lot of the team.
We want to make that better.
(36:00):
Then number three, connect it tovalues, patient care and team
sustainability.
Those are both really importantto us.
We think that this change willhelp both.
And then lastly, clarifyopportunities for input and
adjustment.
This is that flexibility, thisis that inclusivity part, right?
(36:21):
Hey, Andy, what we're gonna dois we're gonna try this for four
weeks as a little experiment.
Then we're gonna have all theleads check in with all of their
teams and just ask threequestions.
Hey guys, what's working, what'snot working, and what do you
think needs to be adjusted?
And that last part, Andy, itreally matters because
transparency, it's not justabout broadcasting information.
(36:41):
It's not just about prescribingthings, it's helping people
understand the decision and therole that they play and where
they still have agency.
Now, a few things to keep inmind, okay?
Keep it plain spoken.
Don't hide behind obtuse orobscure corporate language.
Don't over-explain.
Don't spend 10 minutes on thiswhen two very honest sentences
(37:03):
are sufficient, and don'tpretend that the change is
perfect if it isn't.
If it truly is an experiment andyou're not 100% confident it's
going to work out, be honestabout that.
That's positive communicationand action.
That's turning change fromsomething being done to people
into something we canunderstand, we can participate
in, and we can improve together.
(37:24):
The second idea for culturalrenovation using this paper is
to build micro moments of avisible care and support.
Culture really changes, at leastfor the better, when support
becomes observable.
I'm not talking about dramaticor performative.
It doesn't have to be bigthings.
It's just that it's observableand repeated.
Examples could, I mean, simplethings, right?
(37:45):
Like, hey, you know what?
You've been at this for a while.
Why don't you take a drink ofwater and a breath for a few
minutes?
I'm gonna take this next room.
Or, wow, Andy, that last one wasreally tough.
Why don't you let me take thenext cranky client?
Or that was such a hard case.
How are you doing?
What do you need?
Right?
These are all opportunities toshow support, micro moments of
(38:08):
support that all of us can doover and over and over in our
practices to create a culture ofsupport.
And support becomes culture whenthat happens, when people see it
happening, when they receive it,and then they start copying it.
That's the kind of this is likekind of like that uh kitschy
little statement put into theworld what you want out of it in
(38:28):
action based on evidence.
But that's the cool part.
This culture of renovation tool,it's super simple, it's
surprisingly powerful, and it isliterally accessible to anyone,
regardless of role.
You're the brand new Kennel Techthat's been there a week, you're
the hospital owner who's ownedthe practice for 25 years, and
every other role in between.
You don't need a title to makesomeone feel less alone in their
(38:50):
work.
Okay, Andy, lightning roundstyle here.
What are some other ways thatliterally anyone on the team
could create a micro moment ofcare or a micro moment of
support for other team members?
SPEAKER_02 (39:02):
Catch someone's eye across the room and smile.
Oh, I love that.
SPEAKER_00 (39:06):
That's yes, right?
Who, oh, I think I want to say Iwas with you, but it might I may
have been alone.
I met a uh veterinarian who hewas um he was a surgeon in
academia.
So you can put those two thingstogether and um the amount of
terror that uh uh exuded fromhim when students came into the
OR, right?
(39:27):
And he said that one of thethings that he learned to do um
was to pay attention to you knowall the the students, the
residents, everybody that wasthere, and look for people who
seemed like maybe they they wereexuding some sort of nonverbal
of struggle.
And all he would do is it was inthe OR.
He couldn't like really have aconversation with them.
He said he would just look atthem, make eye contact.
(39:48):
Obviously, you have the mask on,so it's just eyes, right?
Make eye contact and just touchhis heart.
That's it from across the room.
It's very similar to what yousaid.
What else?
What else you got?
SPEAKER_02 (39:58):
Um, what else?
Help without being asked, right?
Just something basic.
Let's say that you're walkingdown the hall and you see
somebody balancing 14 syringeboxes and they're obviously
going to restock and they'recoming up to the storeroom.
SPEAKER_00 (40:11):
Open the door for them.
Hold the door.
Awesome.
Awesome.
Tiny little micro.
This is, I mean, this is it.
And listeners, you're gonnathink of a thousand other little
things like this.
Doing these things repetitivelycreates the opportunity for
others to repeat them, which ishow we influence culture.
It's really just that simple.
Uh, the third tool that I wantedto share today is this idea of
(40:32):
turning crisis survival intofuture strengths.
This is like growth spotting alittle bit.
Andy, you know what big fans ofAppreciative Inquiry we are at
Flourish.
One of the things that I reallylove about that methodology is
the underlying mindset that thequestions we ask really shape
our future.
For example, if we ask questionsabout failure, like, why did
everyone freak out during thatemergency hit by car?
(40:54):
The best that we can learn ishow to avoid freakouts in the
future.
But if we ask questions aboutexcellence, like, hey, what made
it possible for all of us tocome together and save that
dog's life?
Same situation, very differentquestion.
What we end up discovering iswhat's best in us, and then we
can grow and amplify thosestrengths.
I really think that applieshere.
(41:16):
Here's the deal listen,veterinary teams face crises of
all kinds frequently, almostdaily.
Every time, though, or at leastdamn near, we get through it.
We survive, we endure, we get tothe other side.
Appreciative inquiry would thensuggest that there's resources
in those experiences that canactually help us thrive moving
forward.
(41:36):
So, based on this paper, here'sone way to tap into those
resources.
Debrief crises, but in a veryparticular way.
After the team has overcome somesort of unexpected emergency, an
unanticipated challenge, someunique obstacle, whatever it is.
Once the dust has settled andthe stress-induced tachycardia
slows to some semblance ofnormalcy, huddle up and debrief.
(41:59):
First, recognize and validatethe tough thing that they just
went through and celebratewhat's worth celebrating, right?
So we got to validate that washard, that's real.
And then we move to celebratewhat's worth celebrating.
And we do that by spending a fewminutes exploring two questions.
Number one, and this is in ateam conversation, hey guys,
what did we do during thatreally difficult moment that
(42:22):
actually worked for us?
What were the things that wereworking?
Not what went wrong or whatcould we have done better?
What were the things that wereworking?
And then question number two iswhat did we learn by going
through that experience that wecan apply to the next hard
thing?
Because God knows it's coming,who knows when and who knows
(42:43):
what?
Right.
So, what what did we do thatworked?
And what lessons can we carryforward to the next thing?
Andy, in your experience, whathappens after a big hard
challenge in veterinary teams?
Do you find that they debrieflike this or does something else
happen?
SPEAKER_02 (43:00):
I usually find that one of two things happen.
Either everybody just likequietly sort of acknowledges
that that happened and they moveon because they've got a
thousand other things to do.
And I think there is some formof a debrief, but it's that
problem-focused debrief thatyou're talking about.
(43:20):
Because when I talk to a lot ofveterinary professionals out
there, I get a lot of them go,yeah, yeah, yeah.
We we debrief those things.
We debrief the emergencies andthe things that don't go well.
And I find that they often focuson what didn't go well.
What did we screw up?
What could we do better?
Why did that suck?
Why did we fail?
And then at humans being humans,we go down that path and we
(43:45):
start to focus on all of thosethings, right?
That's a lot of what we've beentalking about here today.
And so the productive debrief isfew and far between.
SPEAKER_00 (43:55):
Yeah.
Okay.
So, so in your experience, oneof two things happened.
Either they like very brieflyacknowledge that was a shitty
thing and then just move on, orthey quote unquote debrief, but
the debrief is very focused onwhat went wrong, where did we
screw up, where are the problemsthat we need to retrain, those
kinds of things.
Andy, if people debriefed in theway that I'm uh proposing here,
(44:19):
how do you think that wouldchange things for this?
Typical veterinarian team asthey're coming out of uh, you
know, a challenge or crisis.
SPEAKER_02 (44:25):
Oh God, that would empower people in ways that
would be absolutelygame-changing.
It would make crises andchallenges and less than awesome
situations way more of a growthopportunity rather than an oh
shit, this happened and now wehave to deal with it.
And I think that it would reallyempower your team in those
(44:46):
moments too.
SPEAKER_00 (44:47):
I totally agree.
There's this concept in in orthe organizational literature,
um, it comes out of positiveorganizational behavior called
psychological capital orpsychap.
And, you know, three of theingredients of psy cap is
self-efficacy, hope, andoptimism.
And I feel like doing a debrieflike this helps to build all
three of those things.
Show people we are capable ofenduring hard things.
(45:08):
Um, and so therefore, uh we canbuild hopefulness for the next
hard thing and optimism thatwe'll get through it.
Uh so yeah, I'm I'm totally withyou.
The the last sort of tip that Iwanted to share for cultural
renovation around this paper isto learn the ins and outs of
positive communication and applyit.
Uh the most of the findings herereally, really spoke to the
(45:28):
power of positive communicationin creating a workspace uh that
people want to stay in eventhrough difficult things.
Annie, when when you think backto your time in veterinary
practices, how many times a daydid you communicate with people?
And I'd like including both theteam and clients, roughly.
SPEAKER_02 (45:46):
Oh God, four million.
I don't know.
I mean, constantly.
Constantly.
SPEAKER_00 (45:50):
Constantly.
Would it be safe to say that youwould you would have on a
typical shift um 500conversations?
SPEAKER_02 (45:58):
Yes, at least.
SPEAKER_00 (46:00):
Of the at least, right?
Let's go with 500.
Of those 500, on any given day,how many of those communication
interactions involved some formof genuine quote conflict?
SPEAKER_02 (46:11):
Five or ten, not many.
SPEAKER_00 (46:14):
So one to two percent.
Okay.
Isn't it funny that almost allthe communication training we do
in vetmed is on conflictmanagement?
Yes.
How to get clients to comply,how to de-escalate cranky
clients, how to manage conflictin the team.
I get it, that stuff is superimportant.
Relationships can be made orbroken in those critical
moments.
But what about the other 98% ofthe time that we're having
(46:37):
non-conflicty communication withpeople?
We're already communicating withpeople.
It's not conflict.
What if we used all that time toactively build better
relationships, to strengthenconnection, to nurture teamwork
and team coordination, to betterunderstand each other?
That's what positivecommunication is about.
Imagine how much better we'd allfeel, how the workplace culture
(46:58):
would improve, and heck, howmuch less conflict there would
probably be.
If we spent that 98% of the timeactively nurturing
relationships, there probablywould be less conflict.
So that's really what this ideaof positive communication is
speaking to.
But no one really teaches ussolid evidence-based skills for
mastering that until now.
SPEAKER_02 (47:18):
I was gonna say they don't.
I know some place that does.
SPEAKER_00 (47:22):
Yes, I do too.
Listen, if we I think that if wewant positive cultures in our
workplaces, which is what wehear all the time, then we need
people communicating in positiveways.
Structuration tells us that whatpeople say and do at work is
repeated and influences what issaid and done next by them and
others.
We can use that power for goodby teaching ourselves and our
teams how to communicatepositively.
(47:43):
And to what Andy was saying,it's very true.
The Flourish Academy has theonly certificate in cultivating
positive team communicationcourse that teaches all these
things.
By the way, that's based on thepreeminent scholar in applied
positive communication, JulianMiraval's work.
So that's just one option.
But another one is to justreally talk through this as a
team.
(48:04):
Put pull the whole team togetherand talk through what positive
communication means to us?
What would it look like if itwas happening here?
What would it look like when theday begins, when people first
walk in, when patients arehanded off, when you need help,
when a shift ends, when there'sa one-on-one conversation in the
break room.
Like just really explore thosethings and identify a few like
(48:26):
shared behaviors and approachesthat you can all agree to as a
team.
Now, there is somebody in theworld who doesn't need these
lessons because they've alreadymastered the art of positive
communication.
Andy, I think you might havethat somebody ready to share.
SPEAKER_02 (48:44):
Ooh, and this somebody has mastered the art of
communication in a way that isepic.
Yes, it is Florida man.
And this Florida man, I I'vebeen so excited to share this
one.
I've actually had this in myback pocket for a minute, and
I've been so excited to sharethis particular Florida man
(49:05):
headline with you and all of ourlisteners.
Because this Florida man runningfrom the cops stops to pet cats
and ends up going to jail.
So apparently, what happened isthat this guy was fleeing from
the police during his marathonrun from the cops.
He stopped at a house to ask forwater, got distracted by all the
(49:30):
cats, went into the house, laidon the floor to pet all of the
cats, and the cops caught up onthem and arrested him.
SPEAKER_00 (49:39):
This is why veterinary professionals will
never uh escape the police.
SPEAKER_02 (49:43):
Right, right, right.
I know.
I was like, well, we can allrelate to that because it's
something we would 100% do.
SPEAKER_00 (49:50):
It's amazing.
Florida Man is the very, verybest.
Well done, Florida Man.
Well, listen, everybody, Andy,listeners, thank you all for
joining us for another episodeof the Veterinary Culture Lab.
We're we're always delighted toshare some of these uh sciencey
bits with you.
Don't forget to subscribe and torate us.
That really helps us getvisibility and spread the word
(50:10):
about the things that we'retrying to help the veterinary
profession do to renovateveterinary culture.
Until then, see you all nexttime.
Be well.
SPEAKER_02 (50:18):
Bye, everybody.
Thanks for hanging out with usin the Veterinary Culture Lab,
powered by the science ofworkplace well-being, and
brought to you by FlourishVeterinary Consulting.
If today's episode sparked anidea, made you smile, or got you
thinking, hey, I should totallytry that.
(50:40):
Let us know.
What do you think?
Be sure to subscribe, share, andremember a thriving veterinary
culture is possible, and youdon't have to build it alone.
Welcome to the Veterinary Culture Lab, where
science meets real-worldapplication.
I'm Andy Davison.
SPEAKER_00 (00:11):
And I'm Josh Weissman.
Together we'll show you anevidence-based blueprint for
renovating culture in yourveterinary team.
One episode at a time.
SPEAKER_02 (00:23):
When crisis hits in veterinary medicine, people
remember how they retreated.
Today we'll explore the rolethat positive communication
plays in whether teams pulltogether or simply walk away.
Well, I'm very hydrated, I cantell you that.
(00:45):
Good and hydrated.
SPEAKER_00 (00:47):
Good and hydrated.
Uh, early May 2026.
Tell me what the early Mayweather is in uh O'Cala,
Mikinope, Florida.
SPEAKER_02 (00:58):
We just got our first like big summer storm
yesterday.
We had been in a seriousdrought.
We still are in a seriousdrought.
Like there's no doubt about it.
We're super behind the deficit,blah, blah, blah.
That's big topics ofconversation around here.
Um, but we got our first runoutside, dance in the rain.
Thank goodness it's finallyraining storm yesterday.
(01:19):
Uh, and now, of course, it ishumid as all get out.
It feels like I think it's 92degrees out right now when it's
actually only 80 degrees.
So it's the humidity has set in.
Like we are right with it's justit has just happened.
SPEAKER_00 (01:37):
That's that's the ick.
Um, but so wait, did you godance in the rain when the rain
came?
SPEAKER_02 (01:43):
Um, I didn't because I was in the middle of doing
other things, but there wasdefinitely like party texting
between me and all of my horsegirls.
Oh, thank goodness it's finallyraining.
We're gonna get grass in thepastures.
Yay, the ground isn't gonna beso hard, like all of the
celebratory horse things that weget excited about when it rains.
SPEAKER_00 (02:03):
That's awesome.
Um, scout, how does Scout reactto the rain?
Like I know Scout barks atthunder, but but is Scout like
uh, I want to go dance in therain crazy, or is Scout like not
a chance, I'm not gonna melt?
SPEAKER_02 (02:18):
It depends.
If it's thundering, oh yeah,she's out in it because she
wants to bark at it, she wantsto run around.
She's very lieutenant Dan in thesituation.
Like she doesn't care if it'slightning, if it's raining, she
wants to be out in it and istalking back to the storm.
If it's just raining withnothing exciting happening, she
(02:40):
kind of finds a way to sneakunder the deck and do her stuff
and then come back in.
So it's very dependent on thenoise factor.
SPEAKER_00 (02:48):
Okay.
So so when there's no thunder,it's not that she's indifferent
to the rain, it's that she wouldprefer not to be out there, but
she can do it.
SPEAKER_02 (02:55):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (02:56):
Right.
Okay.
I love her, by the way.
SPEAKER_02 (02:58):
She is she's the sassiest, most amazing little
tiny ball of floof ever.
What about Rue?
What does Rue think about rainand storms?
SPEAKER_00 (03:09):
Um, Rue is adamantly opposed to getting wet from
water that falls from above.
Uh he yeah, he he has zerodesire.
The snow, however, like I'mpretty sure that Rue's primary
circuitry lives in his like padsof his feet because they get
into the snow, and then there'sa short circuit that occurs, and
(03:32):
he it like turns into like apsychopathic six-month-old puppy
bouncing around like an idiot.
It is hilarious.
SPEAKER_01 (03:38):
Oh, I thought it's so cute.
SPEAKER_00 (03:40):
Oh my god, it is so adorable, it's super fun, but
not the rain.
He is he's opposed to the rain.
And of course, we we don't wedid have snow, I don't know, a
week and a half ago, andyesterday was yesterday or the
day before was like almost 90.
So, you know, Colorado in thespring.
SPEAKER_02 (03:56):
Yeah, it is the season.
SPEAKER_00 (03:58):
Andy, I have a question for you that I'm hoping
you can help me settle.
Greta and I um were having thisuh discussion earlier, and we
both kind of landed on differentsides of the coin.
So I feel like you can be likethe the, I don't know, deciding
vote.
SPEAKER_02 (04:13):
Oh, it's a lot of pressure.
SPEAKER_00 (04:15):
I I it's I mean, it's it's a fairly low pressure
question.
Um, you know that Greta and Idon't have children, and I know
that you and Mike also don'thave children, so I don't feel
like we're experts here, whichis why this was like a little
bit of a subjectiveconversation.
But but the question that wewere struggling with is if if
you have a child and that childrefuses to sleep during nap
(04:36):
time, does that make them guiltyof resisting arrest?
SPEAKER_02 (04:40):
I'm gonna go with yes, and I'm also gonna go with
I would be unable to like putthis rule into play because I'd
be laughing so hard.
SPEAKER_00 (04:48):
So hard.
SPEAKER_02 (04:49):
Um thinking of yeah, this dad joke.
SPEAKER_00 (04:51):
Yeah.
Um, on to more, I guess, quote,serious things.
Um, today, Andy, we're gonnatalk about a paper that really
focuses on why people stay intheir workplaces, which to me
feels like especially refreshingbecause I feel like a lot of the
conversation in VetMed over thepast few years is really focused
on kind of the opposite side ofthat coin.
Instead of asking the question,which you know the power of
(05:14):
questions, Andy.
You're as big a fan ofAppreciative Inquiry and David
Cooper Eiter as I am.
Uh, the questions that we askinfluence what comes next,
right?
And I feel like a lot of thequestion that we've been asking
in VetMed is not what makespeople stay in their job.
We've been asking the question,why do people leave their job?
Which feels like they're verysimilar, but actually it turns
(05:35):
out that we get really differentanswers.
So, so this paper is reallyabout the what makes people
stay.
And there really is somethingpowerful in asking.
When things are hard, whenchallenges emerge, when we face
stressors and obstacles andadversities, what is it that
makes a team member say, Yeah,this is tough, but I'm still in
(05:56):
it for the long term.
I want to stick around here.
But another way, what ifemployee retention wasn't really
about perks and pay and all thethings that we think will hold
on to people, but ratherretention was about the memories
that people build duringdifficult times.
And that's kind of what thispaper is really about.
(06:17):
Uh, before we get to the paper,though, Andy, I wanted to ask
you a question.
Before you joined Flourish, youwere the technician manager in
an academic setting, leading avery large team of technicians
in the large animal teachinghospital that you worked at.
You were in that role during areally unique time in our
history.
You were in that role duringCOVID.
So you were in this leadershipposition during COVID, but kind
(06:39):
of a middle management position.
So you were leading this team,but there were other people that
you reported to that had a lotmore power than you.
What I want to ask you to do isI want you to think back to like
when shit really hit the fan andthe COVID crisis was at its peak
and it was pure chaos and nobodyknew what was going on.
In particular, I want you torecall, if you can, during that
specific time, the interactionsthat you and others around you
(07:04):
had with hospital leadership,with like the core top
leadership.
And then I've got sort of twoquestions for you in one.
Part one is how would youdescribe the leadership's
communication during that crisistime?
Would you say it was positive?
Would you say it was negative,or would you say it was kind of
neutral, somewhere in themiddle?
(07:24):
And then secondly, if you couldgive some examples to help me
and our listeners kind ofunderstand what led you to
choose that?
Like why would you describe itas positive, negative, or
neutral?
SPEAKER_02 (07:35):
Thinking back about this was quite the trip down
memory lane, right?
I mean, on one hand, it feltlike it was a lifetime ago that
this happened.
But on the other hand, it wasliterally just last week.
I mean, it was just insane tothink about everything that we
went through and how long, quoteunquote, long ago it was, but
(07:59):
how recent it was as well.
And I think VetMed experiencedthis in a very unique way.
And I was in it.
I mean, I was in it up to myeyeballs during COVID.
And being in an academichospital that was huge and I
mean, couldn't stop moving.
I mean, there were no options toshut down, shorten hours, any of
(08:22):
that, because of the type ofenvironment that I was in.
Uh, communication was huge whenit came to COVID.
And thinking back all theseyears later on how that went
down and what that felt like, Ihonestly would say, COVID aside,
the experience was actuallyfairly positive.
(08:44):
And for me, it had to do withthe level of communication that
was happening.
So, as you'll all remember,right?
Everything changed from one dayto the next.
There were different rules,there were different
suggestions, there weredifferent ideas, there were
different findings, there wereit, it was, you never knew.
(09:06):
Any every morning you went intowork, you weren't really sure
exactly what had happenedovernight, what was new, and
what was going to change.
That led to a lot ofconversations between like the
upper management, middlemanagement, which is where I
lived, and you know, the teamsout in the floor doing the
(09:26):
things.
And this constant change andthese constant meetings actually
encouraged communication.
I think that at first it wasviewed a touch negatively
because people did think, oh myGod, now what?
Right?
Now what's gonna change?
What we we were doing this allalong, and now all of a sudden
(09:48):
we have to do this totallydifferently.
But I think over time theystarted to realize that it was
like consistent, constantchange, and that the change was
being fueled by leadership'sdesire to protect us as humans,
right?
Nobody knew what was going on.
Nobody knew what to expect.
(10:10):
Everybody was nervous, everybodywas scared.
This was brand new territory foreverybody.
And the leadership team that Idealt with was actually pretty
damn transparent about that.
They shared that fear, theyshared that uncertainty, right?
Of well, we have no idea what'sgoing on.
(10:30):
This is what we know now, butthat might change in five
minutes.
Like, and they include theyincluded me and they included
most of us in on some of thoseconversations.
So while they had to set thepin, right?
They had to say, for example, weneed to find a way to function
as an academic teachinghospital, but minimize sort of
(10:51):
the quote unquotecross-contamination of shifts so
that if one shift goes down, thewhole entire hospital doesn't,
you know, all of a sudden turninto a ghost town.
SPEAKER_01 (11:01):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (11:02):
What do we think some of those options could be?
Because nobody had the answerbecause we'd never done this
before.
And so I felt very included inthese conversations.
My leadership team knew that Iknew what my crew was doing,
what they needed to do, who theplayers were, what might work
and what didn't work.
(11:23):
And they listened to me when Ishared some of those things.
And they were transparent aboutthe goals that we needed to
reach, right?
Like the things that we neededto accomplish, the way that we
needed to make sure to balanceeverything.
And that accompanied with thathuman sort of empathy, emotion
(11:43):
that came with what the heck isthis, right?
Like, what is this COVID thing?
How are we going to manage this?
What's going on now?
I want my team to be healthy.
I want to protect them fromanything that, you know, might
come rolling down the blocktomorrow because nobody knew
what the deal was behind the,you know, this new virus.
(12:05):
And so that became very, veryapparent.
The willingness to include us inon decisions, how we were going
to make these things happen, thewillingness to be transparent
about, well, this is what weknow and this is what we've got
to do.
And, you know, these are ourthoughts.
And that willingness to bevulnerable and show us that like
(12:27):
we were humans and that theycared.
And we we knew that some ofthese crazy rules or these
middle shift changes were simplybecause they didn't want us to
get sick.
SPEAKER_00 (12:42):
So it sounds to me like um you would describe it as
positive during that time thatsenior leadership's
communication towards the restof the team was positive.
And some of the things that madeit positive for you was that it
was consistent, it wastransparent, it was candid, it
conveyed care, it was inclusive,and it showed a lot of trust in
(13:05):
the organization.
And the communication wascentered around the well-being
of the team in balance with theneeds of the hospital.
SPEAKER_02 (13:14):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (13:14):
Yeah, that's great.
That's awesome.
And that stuff matters becauseit turns out that teams really
remember how their organizationstreat them when things are
messy, scary, uncertain, orinconvenient, right?
Like when we have these kinds ofcrises, how we are treated makes
a difference.
What is it that Maya Angelousaid?
Something like, uh, it's notwhat you say or do, it's how you
(13:34):
make people feel that matters,or something along those lines.
I love that quote.
SPEAKER_02 (13:38):
That's one of my favorite Maya Angelou quotes.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (13:41):
Oh, yeah, it's awesome.
So here's the thing, Andy.
Moments like that aren't just ina pandemic.
I mean, COVID is like a reallyacute example of what a crisis
can be like, but in veterinaryhospitals, these kinds of
moments actually happen with agreat deal of frequency.
You know, things like thebrutally understaffed Monday,
those back to back to backcranky clients, or, you know,
(14:01):
that day where you have to workthrough three euthanasia around
a couple puppy visits and you'redoing all that emotional code
switching.
Uh those are all really, reallydifficult moments that can feel
like mini crises.
Our teams are watching how wecommunicate during these tough
times.
And that communication, itbecomes a really big part of the
culture that people remember.
(14:22):
It shapes how they make meaningof the hard work that they do,
of the things that they'reenduring.
And there's a really bigdifference between today was
awful, but we were in ittogether.
And today was awful, and Ireally felt like I endured it
alone.
So maybe the problem isn't thatwe lack resilience in veterinary
medicine.
(14:42):
Maybe the problem is we askpeople to spend their resilience
capital alone too often untilthey decide to head out the
front door for good.
And we all know about theturnover problem that veterinary
practices face these days, whichis why I think this paper is
such a cool paper for us.
So the study that I've broughtto this episode is titled The
Structuration of PositiveCommunication Experiences: The
(15:04):
Case of the Great Resignation byElizabeth A.
Williams and several of hercolleagues.
Now, don't worry, Andy.
We're gonna explain that funnyword structuration a little bit
later in the episode, I promise.
But Andy, I I I was reallycurious before we do that.
Can you say structuration fivetimes really fast?
SPEAKER_02 (15:22):
Um, no, if you want a good laugh.
Because I kept wanting to makeit structurization.
And I'm like, no, that's noteven that's not even letters in
the word, Andy.
SPEAKER_00 (15:32):
What's a set of Z here?
SPEAKER_02 (15:34):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (15:35):
You know, I so often in vetmed and in other
industries, we study turnoverand why people leave workplaces.
But this study, as we mentionedearlier, it took a peek at the
other side of that coin.
It really focused in on whatmakes people stay.
In particular, why people staythrough and beyond a crisis?
(15:55):
In this case, it was the COVIDpandemic and then the ensuing
great resignation that sort ofcame, you know, in and after
that.
The researchers ended up askingwhat role, if any, did positive
communication play in helpingpeople want to stay in their
job, which is of coursesomething that you and I are
super jazzed about uh given thegraduate program that we did and
(16:16):
our course in uh positivecommunication in veterinary
medicine.
So the the research, the studywas designed around two big
questions.
Number one, how didorganizational communication
create positive workplaceexperiences during the COVID
crisis?
And then number two, why didteam members choose to stay in
(16:36):
their job during the ensuinggreat resignation?
To answer those questions, theyconducted some pretty extensive
interviews of 25 people who hadstayed with the same
organization from January 2020,so just before COVID really kind
of went bonkers through March2023.
The interviews were one-on-one.
(16:57):
They were semi-structured.
Uh, semi-structured, by the way,just means that they had a list
of sort of interview questionsthat they went through, but they
sort of followed the flow of theinterview.
They may have had probingquestions that they asked or uh
additional questions beyond, butthey were always sure to ask
those specific researchquestions as well.
And then the interviews lastedsomewhere between 30 and 90
(17:18):
minutes.
Uh, they resulted in a lot ofdata, nearly 500 pages of
single-spaced transcript data.
That's a lot to look through.
They then used a uh a dataanalysis approach called the
frenetic iterative approach,which probably sounds like
something you'll need a degreein Latin and a pot of coffee to
fully understand.
I get it, but I'll explain itreally quickly.
(17:40):
Basically, they took that nearly500 pages of data and they just
read all the interviews over andover and over and were looking
for patterns.
Then they compared the patternsto existing theory in the
literature and then repeated theprocess consist while
consistently asking, hey, whatis both congruent with existing
theory and actually useful here?
(18:02):
What are the things that we'repulling out here that really
match up with the theory in theliterature and can be useful in
the real world?
You could kind of think of thislike renovating an old hospital
building, right?
So you buy an old creakybuilding, you're gonna start up
a new practice there.
You're not gonna walk throughthat place once and then
immediately know what to keep,what to tear out, or tweak,
right?
You're gonna take time toinspect it.
(18:24):
You're gonna revisit things,you're gonna tap on walls,
you're gonna look at blueprints,you're gonna talk to the people
who are gonna use that spaceevery day.
And then through all of thatsort of subjective data
collection, the real structurethat you have and the one that
you want will start to revealitself.
That's basically what a freneticiterative approach is to this
(18:46):
kind of qualitative dataanalysis.
From a more technicalperspective, the researchers
basically started broad withwhat we call primary cycle
coding, the grouped patterns,and then they refined with
secondary coding and selectivecoding.
So, in other words, they justnarrowed with each round until
they had their final results.
Now, earlier I promised that Iwould explain structuration
(19:08):
theory, so I'm gonna do that.
But let me try and do that um ina way that hopefully doesn't
cause an allergic reactionrequiring a hit from the epi
pen.
Structuration is a theory abouthow people and systems shape
each other.
And this is one of the morepowerful theories, Andy.
I don't know about you, but whenwhen I first came across this in
our graduate uh studies, thisone really hit me kind of square
(19:31):
between the eyes.
You see, organizations haverules and resources.
Rules are kind of, you know, thehow we do thing here, how we do
things here, and those thingsmatter.
Uh and then resources are thetools, the knowledge, the
authority, the relationships,money, time, like all the stuff
that people use to get thingsdone according to the rules.
(19:51):
People then use those rules andresources every single day.
Or they don't.
Sometimes they break rules,sometimes they bend rules,
sometimes they do things alittle bit differently.
But either way, every time theyuse a rule or resource, or they
don't, they're reinforcing theexisting culture or they're
(20:12):
changing it.
People make culture, whichinfluences how people behave
within the culture, which makesor remakes the culture, which
influences the next set ofbehaviors that happen in that
environment, and round and roundand round we go.
Culture is not something weprescribe, culture is not
something we ascribe to.
It is both at the same time.
(20:33):
It's co-created.
So in a veterinary hospital, ifpeople skip lunch every day for
any reason, it doesn't matterwhy, people work through lunch
every day, then over timeskipping lunch becomes a
well-worn path in the culture.
It's like, you know, I don't domountain biking, but people who
mountain bike always talk about,you know, the the little the
tiny little path that you putyour your tire, your fat tire
(20:53):
through as you're going through.
That's kind of what happens.
We create sort of keeps peoplewithin quote unquote the lines
of how we do things here, whichis we don't take lunches.
But now let's say that all of asudden one day leaders start
saying things like, Hey, listen,Andy, I want you to take your
lunch today.
I'm gonna cover for you.
And then they make sure that youactually take your lunch.
(21:16):
Well, we can carve a new paththen.
If people actually take thebreak and they're actually
covered, then over time a newpath will emerge.
Hey, this is a place where wetake lunch.
That's structuration theory.
Andy, how are you feeling atthis point?
SPEAKER_02 (21:30):
Um, the Abby Pen is sitting here, but I'm not
actively reaching for it.
So we're doing best.
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (21:35):
Okay, I think I did a good job then.
Okay, so so let's return back tothe study.
What did they discover?
Well, I want to share four bigfindings today.
The first one is that positivecommunication, it isn't fluffy,
it's infrastructure.
Or at least it can and shouldbe.
So this study found that theprimary reason people stayed in
their job through this majorcrisis of COVID was their
experience with positivecommunication in the workplace.
(21:58):
Specifically, communication thatcan't Conveyed things like
flexibility, transparency,health and safety, support, a
lot of the kinds of things thatyou shared from your example,
Andy.
And the leaders genuinely caredabout the people that they led,
which is something you saidmultiple times.
You could kind of think of thisas like routine communication
that sounds a bit like thesephrases.
(22:19):
Hey guys, here's what we knowright now.
Here's what we don't know yet.
Right.
Or things like, here's whatwe're doing to protect you, to
protect the team, to protect theorganization.
Here's where we or you have someflexibility and latitude to make
your own decisions today.
Here's where we can't flex.
Here are the things that wereally have to stick to rigidly.
(22:41):
And here's why.
Here's how we're going to getthrough this together, right?
Those are hope-buildingstatements.
That kind of communication, whatit essentially does is it lowers
uncertainty and it strengthenstrust.
And then as a result, people arewilling to stay and use their
resilience capital to getthrough the tough time.
Andy, veterinary hospitals andorganizations, they face a lot
(23:02):
of challenges.
You and I know that.
And sometimes even crises.
And this can happen with morefrequency than maybe we would
like in veterinary settings.
When those situations come up,in your mind, just from your
personal opinion, what do youthink gets in the way of
veterinary leaders communicatingin this kind of positive way
(23:23):
with their teams?
SPEAKER_02 (23:25):
That's a really good question that has probably a
couple of different answers.
But the ones that came up for mewere the leaders' desire to fix
the problem.
They want to fix it for theirteam.
And they want to just go to theteam with an answer.
And they do that, I think,because they're trying to
(23:48):
protect the team.
But it comes across as a bit of,I don't know, lack of
transparency because they'recoming back with, well, what you
got to do is Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (23:57):
I I totally agree with that.
I I think that some of what I'mhearing in what you're saying is
that oftentimes veterinaryleaders show up in a way that
they think that they aresupposed to be the source of
problem solving all the timeperfectly.
And you didn't, yes.
SPEAKER_02 (24:13):
Well, I was just gonna add, I think that I mean,
the way that you rephrase thatis perfect.
And I think the reason that Ihad such a hard time putting the
words together for that isbecause I did that.
I did that.
I felt like that, that I had tohave the solution and to fix it
and to always know what theright answer was and to protect
my team in the process.
SPEAKER_00 (24:35):
Yeah.
No, it totally makes sense.
I also feel like I heard thiselement in what you were saying.
You didn't use this word, butwhat I kept hearing in my head
was thinking back to my coachingpsychology training when they
said that like a really goodcoach um maintains an even
playing ground, that they don'tposition themselves as the
expert or the, you know, theknow-it-all.
(24:57):
Uh, it it should be anadult-to-adult relationship.
And that sometimes what weunintentionally do as coaches is
we position ourselves as theparent.
And then that puts the thecoache in the position of child.
And I think that sometimesleaders do this too.
Again, you didn't say this, butit felt implied in what you were
saying that sometimes asleaders, we we take on this role
of parent and we look at ourteam as children.
(25:19):
Whether we're actually overtlydoing that or not, it's
happening maybe even a bitsubconsciously.
And when we step into that role,that means we have to always
have it together.
That means we have to be theemotional regulation, you know.
And the reality is you're in acrisis and you're a human being,
and so are they.
It's gonna be hard foreverybody.
Uh, sometimes that thattransparency is actually the
(25:40):
better approach.
People see right through thesort of like fake stoicism.
The other, the next um bigfinding from the paper that
really stood out to me is thatwhen times are hard, people
really need to feel trusted andsupported.
And providing flexibility isactually a great way to
accomplish both, which, youknow, hearkening back to what
you just said, Andy, if we'repositioning ourselves as the
(26:01):
be-all-know-all problem solvers,we're actually creating
inflexibility for our team.
We're telling them the only waythat you will get through this
is through me.
And so I better be right and youhave no say, right?
And so what they found in thestudy was that actually it's
quite the opposite, that leaderswho provide flexibility is a
really great way to build trustand show the team, I've got your
(26:24):
back.
So that flexibility, it seemedto help employees really feel
trusted and supported,confirming that they could
adjust to the shifting times andthat leadership believed in
their ability to adjust andflex.
During the pandemic, the theorganizations that allowed
people to work differently,whatever that meant for them,
that can be different fromorganization to organization,
(26:44):
even within an organization fromteam to team.
But those organizations thatallowed that kind of like work
flexibility ended up having alot more retention, people who
stayed instead of quit.
And over time, that flexibilityactually became part of the
enduring culture.
Remember structuration theorythat we talked about earlier?
Turning into a big piece of howpeople understood what the
(27:06):
organization was, you know,quote unquote about.
I like to think of flexibilityas renovating culture in a very
low impact way.
Instead of removing walls, we'rejust putting better hinges on
the doors, right?
So people have the ability tomove freely throughout the
organization.
Andy, listen, I I know that alot of these organizations
during COVID, they went tothings like work from home.
(27:27):
And I that that might not reallybe a big option for a lot of
veterinary professionals.
It's not like we can let peoplehop on Zoom to conduct a foreign
body surgery, at least not yet.
But I do think that workflexibility is an area that we
can really improve on inveterinary medicine.
And I have a sense that you'reprobably going to agree with
that.
So, with that in mind, I wascurious to ask you, what are one
(27:49):
or two ways that you thinkveterinary organizations of
whatever kind can give theirteams more flexibility in how
they work?
SPEAKER_02 (27:58):
I love this question and I love thinking about all
the different options out therethat could be implemented.
The first one that came to mindkind of did, kind of did involve
a little bit of work from homebecause I get it, you're right.
Not everybody can.
There's not always theopportunity, but there might be.
There might be.
I actually work with aveterinary clinic down the
(28:18):
street.
It's where Brody goes for his PTand his aqua tread and all of
that.
And whenever I contact them tomake an appointment, I'm talking
to the CSMer.
She works from home.
She works from home.
I know.
I thought that was really,really cool.
And that's a great example of anoption or a possible opportunity
(28:40):
to be flexible.
I don't know if she works fromhome every day.
I don't know if she does it acouple days a week.
I don't know, but that's areally neat option.
Another one that came to mindwas talk to your team about what
kind of work they want to do,right?
This kind of harkens to the ideaof job crafting.
So talk to your team about whatkind of work they want to do and
maybe find some moreopportunities for them to do it.
(29:02):
Yeah, it might not be every day,all the time, right?
But when the possibility comesup to, I don't know, get in the
truck and go to the track andtake, you know, a whole slew of
radiographs, and you know thatthis particular technician loves
that part and gets really jazzedabout it.
Cool.
There's an opportunity to beflexible.
Maybe swap them out with yoursurgery tech that day.
(29:24):
Another one that may or may notwork, right?
I know your listeners might rollyour eyes at this one.
Think about lunches or breaks.
Maybe there's some options to beflexible there.
Maybe you, you know, you want tomake sure everybody gets lunch
between, I don't know, 11 and 3,whatever.
But when you take that lunch,that's up to you, right?
(29:45):
Maybe there's some ways toencourage that flexible autonomy
that will give people thefeeling that they actually care
about us and they want to makesure that maybe if I wanted to
go to yoga over lunch and theclass was at 1:30, I could do
that because I've had the optionto take my lunch during this
flexible slot in the day.
Stuff like that.
SPEAKER_00 (30:05):
I love all of those ideas.
I mean, this is it's reallyabout what I'm hearing from you
is that it's it's really aboutjust think of something that you
can empower your team with tohave some form of decision
making over.
That's really what flexibilityis.
And whatever that is, towhatever extent, is going to
vary from team to team.
Uh, but it's about findingopportunities to give people
(30:26):
some more decision-making power.
I love it.
Third big takeaway from thepaper for me transparency is
emotional PPE.
You do you remember that buzzacronym?
Does that does that make youtwitch when you think about PPE
and COVID?
SPEAKER_02 (30:40):
Yeah.
Well, yeah, especially havinggone through COVID in the
academic world where we had tolike find it and get it and
distribute it and wear it, andwe had it and we didn't have it,
and all of that.
SPEAKER_00 (30:51):
Sorry for inciting the twitchiness again.
But yeah, transparency, it itreally is for teams, it really
is emotional PPE.
The the study authors, theresearchers, found that
participants felt more connectedto and confident in
organizations that reallycommunicated openly,
transparently, and in real timeor as close to it as feasible
(31:12):
during that crisis.
The authors describedtransparency as a positive
communication practice thathelped employees feel steadier
and more connected to theirworkplace.
Andy, I worry that too oftenveterinary leaders, like we said
earlier, adopt a bit of a heromindset or a parental mindset,
this belief that we always haveto have all the answers, all the
(31:32):
solutions, always be puttogether, gritty, resilient,
never show that you're crumblingor have a crack, right?
That influences what we shareand how we share it.
Like that changes our behavior.
And sometimes it changes it tothe detriment of our teams and
ultimately to ourselves.
The truth is, during a difficultchapter, like teams don't need
leaders who pretend thateverything is fine.
(31:54):
They need leaders who can beclear, honest, informative, and
all with the appropriate levelof hopefulness, optimism, and
humanity.
Uncertainty breeds stories.
And when we feed people falsenarratives, or we're really
selective about the littlecrumbs of information that we
give them, the very normal humanresponse that they're gonna have
(32:17):
is to craft a story thatHollywood horror film directors
would be envious of.
I mean, that's the reality.
That's what the human braindoes.
Transparency gives people fewerscary blanks to fill in.
It provides them a truer storythat they can build off of, and
they're going to be moreresilient because of that.
Lastly, fourth thing, whileleaders play a huge role,
(32:39):
everyone in the organizationcarries the culture.
This study found that positiveexperiences did not only come
from, quote, the organization insome weird abstract sense.
They also came from coworkersand leaders, local leaders,
people like you, Andy, when youwere in middle management.
Coworkers provided support andflexibility, and those local
leaders created positiveexperiences through
(33:00):
authenticity, care,vulnerability, and permission
for self-care.
With every action, every choice,and every conversation, every
single person on the team iseither reinforcing the old
structure or helping to build anew one.
Again, structuration.
The more power that they have inthe organization, absolutely the
more impact uh the kind ofstructure being built that
(33:22):
they're gonna have.
But everybody plays a part,which means that we can all make
things better if we want to.
We just have to do it.
Okay, Andy, I imagine at thispoint you're probably ready to
(33:54):
put these lessons to good use.
And I'm sure our listeners areas well.
Don't worry, guys, we got you.
So here are some of the waysthat you can use structuration
and the results of this study torenovate your veterinary culture
to become the one of yourdreams, or at least get it a
step closer to that.
The first idea that I wanted toshare is this idea of adding
this uh, here's why we're doingthis script to every change you
(34:16):
announce.
And I literally mean everychange.
Even if you're, I don't know,you're changing the way that
people clock in in the morning,whatever it is, adding that
here's why we're doing thisscript is really powerful.
The idea is pretty simple here.
So anytime you announce a changeof any kind, change to the
schedule, a new protocol, ashift in appointment flow, a
pricing update, a staffingdecision, new client
(34:37):
communication process.
Hey guys, we're completely uhtearing the team apart into
three separate groups that arenever going to see each other so
that we don't cross-contaminatewith this new virus.
Whatever it might be, just addone sentence prompt or a few
sentences that explain the whybehind it.
That's it.
Don't assume.
(34:57):
Because if you assume you'releaving people to create their
own Hollywood story in theirhead, in the absence of
explanation, that's what peoplewill do.
They're gonna build thatHollywood story, and usually the
story that they create is notgonna be very generous.
They might think things like,well, leadership obviously
doesn't care about us, orthey're just trying to squeeze
more out of us, or no oneunderstands what we're dealing
(35:18):
with here on the floor.
Oh, just another random rulesomebody made up in some, you
know, back corner room.
Transparency interrupts thatspiral.
A very good, here's why we'redoing this script, it's gonna
have four parts to it, Andy.
Okay, you ready?
Number one, name the changeclearly.
An example could be like, hey,Andy, starting Monday, we're
(35:39):
changing how same-day urgentcare appointments are added to
the schedule.
All right, so that's the clear,this is the change, and I'm
starting with that.
Number two, explain the why.
You know, we're doing this,Andy, because the current
process creates a lot ofbottlenecks for us, which pushes
lunches later and makes manydays feel like a nonstop
emergency to a lot of the team.
We want to make that better.
(36:00):
Then number three, connect it tovalues, patient care and team
sustainability.
Those are both really importantto us.
We think that this change willhelp both.
And then lastly, clarifyopportunities for input and
adjustment.
This is that flexibility, thisis that inclusivity part, right?
(36:21):
Hey, Andy, what we're gonna dois we're gonna try this for four
weeks as a little experiment.
Then we're gonna have all theleads check in with all of their
teams and just ask threequestions.
Hey guys, what's working, what'snot working, and what do you
think needs to be adjusted?
And that last part, Andy, itreally matters because
transparency, it's not justabout broadcasting information.
(36:41):
It's not just about prescribingthings, it's helping people
understand the decision and therole that they play and where
they still have agency.
Now, a few things to keep inmind, okay?
Keep it plain spoken.
Don't hide behind obtuse orobscure corporate language.
Don't over-explain.
Don't spend 10 minutes on thiswhen two very honest sentences
(37:03):
are sufficient, and don'tpretend that the change is
perfect if it isn't.
If it truly is an experiment andyou're not 100% confident it's
going to work out, be honestabout that.
That's positive communicationand action.
That's turning change fromsomething being done to people
into something we canunderstand, we can participate
in, and we can improve together.
(37:24):
The second idea for culturalrenovation using this paper is
to build micro moments of avisible care and support.
Culture really changes, at leastfor the better, when support
becomes observable.
I'm not talking about dramaticor performative.
It doesn't have to be bigthings.
It's just that it's observableand repeated.
Examples could, I mean, simplethings, right?
(37:45):
Like, hey, you know what?
You've been at this for a while.
Why don't you take a drink ofwater and a breath for a few
minutes?
I'm gonna take this next room.
Or, wow, Andy, that last one wasreally tough.
Why don't you let me take thenext cranky client?
Or that was such a hard case.
How are you doing?
What do you need?
Right?
These are all opportunities toshow support, micro moments of
(38:08):
support that all of us can doover and over and over in our
practices to create a culture ofsupport.
And support becomes culture whenthat happens, when people see it
happening, when they receive it,and then they start copying it.
That's the kind of this is likekind of like that uh kitschy
little statement put into theworld what you want out of it in
(38:28):
action based on evidence.
But that's the cool part.
This culture of renovation tool,it's super simple, it's
surprisingly powerful, and it isliterally accessible to anyone,
regardless of role.
You're the brand new Kennel Techthat's been there a week, you're
the hospital owner who's ownedthe practice for 25 years, and
every other role in between.
You don't need a title to makesomeone feel less alone in their
(38:50):
work.
Okay, Andy, lightning roundstyle here.
What are some other ways thatliterally anyone on the team
could create a micro moment ofcare or a micro moment of
support for other team members?
SPEAKER_02 (39:02):
Catch someone's eye across the room and smile.
Oh, I love that.
SPEAKER_00 (39:06):
That's yes, right?
Who, oh, I think I want to say Iwas with you, but it might I may
have been alone.
I met a uh veterinarian who hewas um he was a surgeon in
academia.
So you can put those two thingstogether and um the amount of
terror that uh uh exuded fromhim when students came into the
OR, right?
(39:27):
And he said that one of thethings that he learned to do um
was to pay attention to you knowall the the students, the
residents, everybody that wasthere, and look for people who
seemed like maybe they they wereexuding some sort of nonverbal
of struggle.
And all he would do is it was inthe OR.
He couldn't like really have aconversation with them.
He said he would just look atthem, make eye contact.
(39:48):
Obviously, you have the mask on,so it's just eyes, right?
Make eye contact and just touchhis heart.
That's it from across the room.
It's very similar to what yousaid.
What else?
What else you got?
SPEAKER_02 (39:58):
Um, what else?
Help without being asked, right?
Just something basic.
Let's say that you're walkingdown the hall and you see
somebody balancing 14 syringeboxes and they're obviously
going to restock and they'recoming up to the storeroom.
SPEAKER_00 (40:11):
Open the door for them.
Hold the door.
Awesome.
Awesome.
Tiny little micro.
This is, I mean, this is it.
And listeners, you're gonnathink of a thousand other little
things like this.
Doing these things repetitivelycreates the opportunity for
others to repeat them, which ishow we influence culture.
It's really just that simple.
Uh, the third tool that I wantedto share today is this idea of
(40:32):
turning crisis survival intofuture strengths.
This is like growth spotting alittle bit.
Andy, you know what big fans ofAppreciative Inquiry we are at
Flourish.
One of the things that I reallylove about that methodology is
the underlying mindset that thequestions we ask really shape
our future.
For example, if we ask questionsabout failure, like, why did
everyone freak out during thatemergency hit by car?
(40:54):
The best that we can learn ishow to avoid freakouts in the
future.
But if we ask questions aboutexcellence, like, hey, what made
it possible for all of us tocome together and save that
dog's life?
Same situation, very differentquestion.
What we end up discovering iswhat's best in us, and then we
can grow and amplify thosestrengths.
I really think that applieshere.
(41:16):
Here's the deal listen,veterinary teams face crises of
all kinds frequently, almostdaily.
Every time, though, or at leastdamn near, we get through it.
We survive, we endure, we get tothe other side.
Appreciative inquiry would thensuggest that there's resources
in those experiences that canactually help us thrive moving
forward.
(41:36):
So, based on this paper, here'sone way to tap into those
resources.
Debrief crises, but in a veryparticular way.
After the team has overcome somesort of unexpected emergency, an
unanticipated challenge, someunique obstacle, whatever it is.
Once the dust has settled andthe stress-induced tachycardia
slows to some semblance ofnormalcy, huddle up and debrief.
(41:59):
First, recognize and validatethe tough thing that they just
went through and celebratewhat's worth celebrating, right?
So we got to validate that washard, that's real.
And then we move to celebratewhat's worth celebrating.
And we do that by spending a fewminutes exploring two questions.
Number one, and this is in ateam conversation, hey guys,
what did we do during thatreally difficult moment that
(42:22):
actually worked for us?
What were the things that wereworking?
Not what went wrong or whatcould we have done better?
What were the things that wereworking?
And then question number two iswhat did we learn by going
through that experience that wecan apply to the next hard
thing?
Because God knows it's coming,who knows when and who knows
(42:43):
what?
Right.
So, what what did we do thatworked?
And what lessons can we carryforward to the next thing?
Andy, in your experience, whathappens after a big hard
challenge in veterinary teams?
Do you find that they debrieflike this or does something else
happen?
SPEAKER_02 (43:00):
I usually find that one of two things happen.
Either everybody just likequietly sort of acknowledges
that that happened and they moveon because they've got a
thousand other things to do.
And I think there is some formof a debrief, but it's that
problem-focused debrief thatyou're talking about.
(43:20):
Because when I talk to a lot ofveterinary professionals out
there, I get a lot of them go,yeah, yeah, yeah.
We we debrief those things.
We debrief the emergencies andthe things that don't go well.
And I find that they often focuson what didn't go well.
What did we screw up?
What could we do better?
Why did that suck?
Why did we fail?
And then at humans being humans,we go down that path and we
(43:45):
start to focus on all of thosethings, right?
That's a lot of what we've beentalking about here today.
And so the productive debrief isfew and far between.
SPEAKER_00 (43:55):
Yeah.
Okay.
So, so in your experience, oneof two things happened.
Either they like very brieflyacknowledge that was a shitty
thing and then just move on, orthey quote unquote debrief, but
the debrief is very focused onwhat went wrong, where did we
screw up, where are the problemsthat we need to retrain, those
kinds of things.
Andy, if people debriefed in theway that I'm uh proposing here,
(44:19):
how do you think that wouldchange things for this?
Typical veterinarian team asthey're coming out of uh, you
know, a challenge or crisis.
SPEAKER_02 (44:25):
Oh God, that would empower people in ways that
would be absolutelygame-changing.
It would make crises andchallenges and less than awesome
situations way more of a growthopportunity rather than an oh
shit, this happened and now wehave to deal with it.
And I think that it would reallyempower your team in those
(44:46):
moments too.
SPEAKER_00 (44:47):
I totally agree.
There's this concept in in orthe organizational literature,
um, it comes out of positiveorganizational behavior called
psychological capital orpsychap.
And, you know, three of theingredients of psy cap is
self-efficacy, hope, andoptimism.
And I feel like doing a debrieflike this helps to build all
three of those things.
Show people we are capable ofenduring hard things.
(45:08):
Um, and so therefore, uh we canbuild hopefulness for the next
hard thing and optimism thatwe'll get through it.
Uh so yeah, I'm I'm totally withyou.
The the last sort of tip that Iwanted to share for cultural
renovation around this paper isto learn the ins and outs of
positive communication and applyit.
Uh the most of the findings herereally, really spoke to the
(45:28):
power of positive communicationin creating a workspace uh that
people want to stay in eventhrough difficult things.
Annie, when when you think backto your time in veterinary
practices, how many times a daydid you communicate with people?
And I'd like including both theteam and clients, roughly.
SPEAKER_02 (45:46):
Oh God, four million.
I don't know.
I mean, constantly.
Constantly.
SPEAKER_00 (45:50):
Constantly.
Would it be safe to say that youwould you would have on a
typical shift um 500conversations?
SPEAKER_02 (45:58):
Yes, at least.
SPEAKER_00 (46:00):
Of the at least, right?
Let's go with 500.
Of those 500, on any given day,how many of those communication
interactions involved some formof genuine quote conflict?
SPEAKER_02 (46:11):
Five or ten, not many.
SPEAKER_00 (46:14):
So one to two percent.
Okay.
Isn't it funny that almost allthe communication training we do
in vetmed is on conflictmanagement?
Yes.
How to get clients to comply,how to de-escalate cranky
clients, how to manage conflictin the team.
I get it, that stuff is superimportant.
Relationships can be made orbroken in those critical
moments.
But what about the other 98% ofthe time that we're having
(46:37):
non-conflicty communication withpeople?
We're already communicating withpeople.
It's not conflict.
What if we used all that time toactively build better
relationships, to strengthenconnection, to nurture teamwork
and team coordination, to betterunderstand each other?
That's what positivecommunication is about.
Imagine how much better we'd allfeel, how the workplace culture
(46:58):
would improve, and heck, howmuch less conflict there would
probably be.
If we spent that 98% of the timeactively nurturing
relationships, there probablywould be less conflict.
So that's really what this ideaof positive communication is
speaking to.
But no one really teaches ussolid evidence-based skills for
mastering that until now.
SPEAKER_02 (47:18):
I was gonna say they don't.
I know some place that does.
SPEAKER_00 (47:22):
Yes, I do too.
Listen, if we I think that if wewant positive cultures in our
workplaces, which is what wehear all the time, then we need
people communicating in positiveways.
Structuration tells us that whatpeople say and do at work is
repeated and influences what issaid and done next by them and
others.
We can use that power for goodby teaching ourselves and our
teams how to communicatepositively.
(47:43):
And to what Andy was saying,it's very true.
The Flourish Academy has theonly certificate in cultivating
positive team communicationcourse that teaches all these
things.
By the way, that's based on thepreeminent scholar in applied
positive communication, JulianMiraval's work.
So that's just one option.
But another one is to justreally talk through this as a
team.
(48:04):
Put pull the whole team togetherand talk through what positive
communication means to us?
What would it look like if itwas happening here?
What would it look like when theday begins, when people first
walk in, when patients arehanded off, when you need help,
when a shift ends, when there'sa one-on-one conversation in the
break room.
Like just really explore thosethings and identify a few like
(48:26):
shared behaviors and approachesthat you can all agree to as a
team.
Now, there is somebody in theworld who doesn't need these
lessons because they've alreadymastered the art of positive
communication.
Andy, I think you might havethat somebody ready to share.
SPEAKER_02 (48:44):
Ooh, and this somebody has mastered the art of
communication in a way that isepic.
Yes, it is Florida man.
And this Florida man, I I'vebeen so excited to share this
one.
I've actually had this in myback pocket for a minute, and
I've been so excited to sharethis particular Florida man
(49:05):
headline with you and all of ourlisteners.
Because this Florida man runningfrom the cops stops to pet cats
and ends up going to jail.
So apparently, what happened isthat this guy was fleeing from
the police during his marathonrun from the cops.
He stopped at a house to ask forwater, got distracted by all the
(49:30):
cats, went into the house, laidon the floor to pet all of the
cats, and the cops caught up onthem and arrested him.
SPEAKER_00 (49:39):
This is why veterinary professionals will
never uh escape the police.
SPEAKER_02 (49:43):
Right, right, right.
I know.
I was like, well, we can allrelate to that because it's
something we would 100% do.
SPEAKER_00 (49:50):
It's amazing.
Florida Man is the very, verybest.
Well done, Florida Man.
Well, listen, everybody, Andy,listeners, thank you all for
joining us for another episodeof the Veterinary Culture Lab.
We're we're always delighted toshare some of these uh sciencey
bits with you.
Don't forget to subscribe and torate us.
That really helps us getvisibility and spread the word
(50:10):
about the things that we'retrying to help the veterinary
profession do to renovateveterinary culture.
Until then, see you all nexttime.
Be well.
SPEAKER_02 (50:18):
Bye, everybody.
Thanks for hanging out with usin the Veterinary Culture Lab,
powered by the science ofworkplace well-being, and
brought to you by FlourishVeterinary Consulting.
If today's episode sparked anidea, made you smile, or got you
thinking, hey, I should totallytry that.
(50:40):
Let us know.
What do you think?
Be sure to subscribe, share, andremember a thriving veterinary
culture is possible, and youdon't have to build it alone.
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