Did Jesus Really Raise From The Dead?

Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_03 (01:28):
If Jesus didn't raise from the dead, then
nothing else really matters,especially when it comes to the
things that I believe.
I've been wanting to have thisconversation for years.
So I am so excited to sit downwith one of my pastors, Corey
Schumate, and talk about thereasons, or are there any
reasons that we can trust theresurrection?

(01:49):
Did it actually happen?
That's what we're going todiscuss in today's episode.
Let's dive in.
Corey, I have been wanting tohave this conversation for a
couple of years now about theresurrection.
So I'm just going to dive in itright here.
Did Jesus actually raise fromthe dead?

SPEAKER_00 (02:08):
I think so.
We've also been talking aboutthis for two, this this podcast
for two years.
So I think you asked me twoyears ago.

unknown (02:14):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (02:14):
And then you're like, and then like it'll
happen.
And then I was like, You'reright.
I was like, she must not trustme after getting to know me.
She's like, hey, podcast.
And then she got to know me andshe's like, not that guy.
I thought for sure you'd you'relike, I found somebody else to
do a better job.
Which I wouldn't blame you forthat.
No, not at all.

SPEAKER_03 (02:30):
Not at all.
I was just always wanting totime it around Easter because,
you know, seems fitting.

SPEAKER_00 (02:36):
Seems fitting.
True.

SPEAKER_03 (02:37):
But did he?
Like, do you do you how much doyou believe that Jesus actually
raised from the dead?

SPEAKER_00 (02:45):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I I believe I believe itwholeheartedly.

SPEAKER_03 (02:49):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (02:49):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (02:50):
Do you ever doubt it?

SPEAKER_00 (02:51):
Do I ever doubt that Jesus was mad?
That's an interesting one.
I have all sorts of doubts.
Um that that doesn't tend to beone of them.
And we'll get into this, but I II think that there's actually a
really good, because there's alot of there's a lot of
questions around like, hey, whatabout errors in the Bible?
And what about this matchingwith this?
And you can get kind of trippedup in your own head about, okay,

(03:12):
okay, that that's got sometraction.
That's got me thinking.
The the resurrection account isoddly like more of a logical
argument than anything, which Ithink makes it sort of uniquely
accessible to the average personin a way that, like, if you say,
What about this part in theBible and it says this?
And how does it agree with thisother part?
You almost have to be a biblicalscholar to like peel back.

(03:32):
Okay, how do those things agreewith each other?
I think with the resurrection,it is it is uniquely uh a
logical thing, which means youcan have a conversation with
somebody about it with just afew facts, not a ton.
And uh, if you agree on thosefew facts, then I think it sort
of comes together in a logicalway that doesn't require you to
be an expert.

SPEAKER_03 (03:51):
Okay.
Tell me.
Let's say I know nothing aboutit, which maybe I don't.
Yes.
You may you're probably gonnashare something brand new.
Sure.
How would you explain to meabout the resurrection in a way
that's logical?

SPEAKER_00 (04:03):
I was thinking so I'm not an expert in this area
either.
So it's you know, I just want tosay you invited me on and I was
like, you're gonna regret this.
So we'll see where we'll seewhere it takes us.
Uh let me start by saying thatlike this is a really, really
fundamental question.
You said a couple minutes ago, Ithink before we hit record on
this.
Uh if this is not true, thenwhat'd you say?
It all the Bible doesn't matter.
It doesn't matter.

(04:24):
It doesn't matter.
Um, and what's reallyinteresting is that that's not
an opinion that you have.
That's actually something thatthe Bible says about itself.
Right.
So 1 Corinthians 15 is kind oflike the resurrection chapter.
It's written by Paul.
Uh and he uh I wrote it downcoming in today.
He said, If Christ has not beenraised, our preaching is

(04:44):
useless, and so is your faith.
It's a crazy thing for the Bibleto say.
It is.
And if Christ has not beenraised, your faith is futile,
you are still in your sins.
If only for this life we havehope in Christ, we are of all
people to be most pitied.
Pitied.
So it's I think it's a uniquething for a religion to say

(05:06):
about itself.
Here's the linchpin.
And if you remove this, thewhole thing comes falling apart.
And Paul's a preacher, he says,then my my preaching is in vain.

SPEAKER_03 (05:16):
And he didn't see he did not see Jesus die and then
raise from the dead.

SPEAKER_00 (05:21):
Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 (05:22):
So even for him to say it for him.
And he didn't see it.

SPEAKER_00 (05:25):
Not only did he not see it, he was a persecutor of
those who did.
You're right.
He jailed and arguably killedChristians who believe this and
had such a radicallytransformative experience that
he followed, began followingthis risen King Jesus suddenly.
So I think that's important toname because there's other, like
in Islam, if you say Muhammadnever lived, Islam can still

(05:48):
stand.
The five pillars can still betrue.
If you have, you know, uhSiddhartha Gautama, the uh
Buddha, right?
If he never never lived, hislife never happened.
That doesn't do anything toBuddhism.
The truths of Buddhism kind offoundations can still stand.
That is not true of Jesus.
Not only is it necessary for theperson of Jesus to have lived uh

(06:12):
and died, but also to have beenraised from the dead.
And if any of those are nottrue, then the whole thing comes
crashing down.
Yeah.
And C.S.
Lewis, if if you maybe heard himsay this, like he says,
Christianity is either of utmostimportance or it's of no port uh
importance at all.
But the one thing that it cannotbe is moderately important.

(06:34):
Yeah, and I think it all risesand falls on the resurrection.

SPEAKER_03 (06:37):
All of it.

SPEAKER_00 (06:38):
All of it.
So says Paul.

SPEAKER_03 (06:40):
So how true true.
So says Paul.

SPEAKER_00 (06:42):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (06:43):
And I think a lot of Christians, that is, as you
said, the linchpin.
So how how can we, how can youbelieve it?
How do you know it to be true?

SPEAKER_00 (06:55):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Uh so I was just thinking aboutthis today.
I this is a great conversationbecause I've never actually had
a full conversation about likekind of from A to Z, how does
this work?
I've had kind of one-offs.
What about this?
What about this?
So this is gonna be new for me.
This is fun, and I'm excited foryour brain to be part of it.
I think one of the most helpfulways to think about this is to
look at actually the thetheories against the

(07:16):
resurrection and kind of weighthem.

SPEAKER_03 (07:19):
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (07:20):
So so there are a couple kind of fringe theories
out there.
There's like a masshallucination.
No, that that's actually uh oneof the one of the more
substantive.
Uh, really?
Yeah, yeah.
So there's even more fringetheories.
Like Jesus had an identical twinthat somehow like, oh my gosh, I
saw this on ready.
And that's where you'll see youwill not see this theory uh

(07:43):
proposed by people who areserious scholars, but yeah, it's
like, hey, uh Jesus died, andthen he had a uh a twin that
basically took up the mantle anduh and carried it forward.
It's like it's odd.
There's very few people areclaiming that there's a lot of
mental gymnastics.
There's the wrong tomb theory,which is like oh, they forgot
Jesus and then they went to theother tomb and there's it's

(08:04):
empty, and they're like, oh mygosh.
Which is for layers and layers,we'll kind of get into that kind
of crazy thinking.
Okay.
But there are there are, so faras I can tell, uh four uh kind
of main theories, alternativetheories.
And then I at the end we'll talkabout, I think, four.
And you really only need four uhfacts that add up to the
resurrection.
Okay.
So four and four.

SPEAKER_03 (08:25):
Four and four.
I love it.

SPEAKER_00 (08:26):
I'm a preacher, so I have to like organize my
thoughts in some ways.
No.
Didn't have enough time forthat.
Maybe we can make one up as wego.

SPEAKER_03 (08:35):
I I can I do love an acronym.

SPEAKER_00 (08:37):
So you mentioned the hallucination theory.
Yes.
Uh so that is do you want toexplain what what you've done?

SPEAKER_03 (08:43):
Here's what I know.
Here's what I know.
Because I read this book.
So what what you and I weretalking about before we hit
record was I got really intothis a couple of years ago when
I was in a business group whereI was the only Christian, which
was new territory for me.
And my and the chair of this ofthis group really started asking
me a lot of questions about it.
So I read this book called RisenIndeed by Gary Hubermis.

(09:05):
You'll totally understand thiswhen I say it.
He actually wrote his PhD inthis.
So it's actually hisdissertation that I that I read.
Is the book.
Is the book.
Okay.
But he was setting out to refutethat Jesus raised from the dead
because he was so mad.

SPEAKER_02 (09:25):
Okay.

SPEAKER_03 (09:25):
His wife had been killed.
He had previously been aChristian.
He decided he didn't believethis anymore.
So he specifically said, I'mgonna prove this wrong and do
all the research to show how itdidn't happen.
So kind of like a Lee Strobelstory.
I know.
It's like it's kind of like anext level Lee Strobel.

SPEAKER_00 (09:40):
Yeah, because he was a journalist who said it out.

SPEAKER_03 (09:42):
Right, right, right.

SPEAKER_00 (09:43):
But for this guy, and this guy was getting his
PhD.

SPEAKER_03 (09:45):
It was more personal, though.

SPEAKER_00 (09:46):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (09:47):
Yeah.
More yeah, a little bit morepersonal.
So and I can't remember all ofthem now, but I do remember
there was this masshallucination theory.
So what if the 500 people whosay that they all because I
should have prepared for this.
There's one of the in one of thegospels, or maybe it's an Acts,
it says that 500 people saw him.

SPEAKER_00 (10:05):
All right, it's about 1 Corinthians.
500.

SPEAKER_03 (10:08):
500.
And so the idea was, well, allof them must have been on some
kind of drug, or they allhallucinate, which apparently is
a thing that people can masshallucinate.
But he refuted that.
I can't remember how he refutedit.

SPEAKER_00 (10:23):
So uh mass hallucinations.
There's of course people whohallucinate, there are m masses
of people who hallucinate at thesame time because they're on the
same drug.
Uh you'd be really hard-pressedto find a large group of people,
especially as large as 500 thatare all hallucinating at the
same time about the exact samething.
Right.

(10:44):
That's the trippy part.
If if if uh 500 people were togo on acid, you know, right now,
and you'd be like, describe yourexperience, you are almost
certainly going to get 500 verydifferent experiences, let alone
you know, all 500 in agreement.
So that's that's a bigindividuals hallucinate, uh mass
groups do not hallucinate aboutthe same thing.

SPEAKER_03 (11:02):
Aaron Ross Powell So why do people consider that an a
valid odds?

SPEAKER_00 (11:05):
It's it's an odd one.
I I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_03 (11:07):
Okay.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (11:08):
It it feels like a reach.
More than that, though, even ifyou had, let's say, let's say
it's true that those 500 peopleabsolutely hallucinated about
the same risen Jesus at the sametime, which there's not a lot of
grounds for why that why theywould do that.
Why those 500 people, you know,like what And to what end?
And to what end?
So there's that question too.
The other thing is we were toldthat Jesus appeared to not just

(11:29):
those 500, but men, uh, women,couples, small groups, indoors,
outdoors, in different placesover the course of a 40-day
period between his resurrectionand then his ascension.
So this is not just a group ofpeople who said, We saw it and
let's all kind of get our storystraight and then you know
report this.
This is him appearing to in abunch of different places.

(11:52):
That is one of the mostcompelling.
You'll see that kind of threadcome come back again and again.
But that is one of the mostcompelling arguments against the
uh alternative theories of theresurrection, because he not
only do you have to contend withthe empty tomb, you have to
contend with a an an appearingJesus.

SPEAKER_02 (12:09):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (12:10):
So for those reasons, I don't think I think
the uh the oh and and lastly,all all Rome would have to do,
if that's true.
500 people rise, or whowhoever's saying, Oh my gosh,
there's a risen Jesus, we allsaw it.
What would Rome have to do?
Kill him again.
Oh no, no, open the tomb.

unknown (12:24):
Or that yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (12:25):
Open the tomb.
Show there he is, you know,ta-da.
Uh that that's all you need todo to debunk something like
hallucinations.
That's true.

SPEAKER_03 (12:33):
Okay.
So let's talk about the stolenbody.

SPEAKER_00 (12:36):
Stolen body.
Okay.
We'll get to that.
I have a second.
So second one is uh what theycall the legendary development
theory.
This is that um maybe a littlebit more credence.
This is the idea that uh Jesusdied, he did not raise from the
dead, but he had a he had a uhbig personality, a big
following.
Yeah.
Um and then over time, there'ssort of this.

(12:57):
Oh people just exaggeration,embellishment of the stories.
And so, of course, a couplethousand years later, we have
this guy who, you know, Jewishrabbi who was compelling and
controversial at the time.
And so uh how how not how betterwhat better way to cement his
legacy in history than to say,oh, this dude died and rose from
the the grave, you know, and weworship him as God.
So it makes sense on a kind offar away logical level.

(13:21):
Um the reality is th it's justnot true.
There's no evidence for that.
And there's a lot of evidence toto the contrary.
And so all four gospel accounts,we we we think of them as, oh,
those are like biased scriptureaccounts.
And admittedly, there are peoplewho are close to Jesus.
Uh, but they are also, we can'tforget, historical accounts.
They are biographies of of thelife of Jesus.
Um, all four of them werewritten within uh decades of

(13:44):
Jesus' death, uh meaning thatthere were eyewitness accounts
who were still very much aliveuh and and they're to contest if
what those four accounts andpeople around that time were
saying about this risen guy.
They'd have to say, nope.
And it wouldn't have gottencredibility.
Uh the second thing is like uhearly outside of the gospels,
early creeds, Paul, we talkedabout the first Corinthians 15

(14:05):
resurrection chapter, he says,I'm passing on to you what I
received as of first importance.
Uh first first Corinthians waswritten within about a decade of
Jesus' death.
And if he's receiving if he'sreceiving that news and saying,
I'm passing on you, because weknow that Paul Paul wasn't
amongst the first believers.
Right exactly.
Right.

(14:25):
There was a time when he waspersecuting Christians.
Yeah.

unknown (14:27):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (14:27):
And then he came to faith, and then he then he
started writing.
So so that means that if he'ssaying ten ten years later, if
to 15 years later, he'sreceiving something, then we
know there's a gap in his story,then there is news of Jesus'
resurrection very, very shortlyafter his death.

SPEAKER_02 (14:44):
Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 (14:45):
Uh the third is that uh Christianity exploded within
months and years after theJesus' death.
And so it is not as if it was asmall pocket.
And so you have to do somethingwith that.
Why is it that this guy was deadand then all of a sudden there
are thousands and then quicklytens of thousands, and within a
couple centuries, hundreds ofthousands of people worshiping

(15:06):
this guy as God has risen?
How what do you make of that?
That there's not timeessentially for for enough time
to go by for then that historyto be so old that people are
gonna make up lies because itwas too far ago for people to
remember the truth.
Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_03 (15:22):
Yeah, it does make sense.

SPEAKER_00 (15:22):
Yeah.
And then of course there's extrabiblical sources.
So there's like Josephus andTacitus and Pliny the Younger.
There are these people outsidethe Bible who have no, in fact,
they wrote antagonisticallyagainst Christians.
These are not Christians.
They're saying this kind of cultaround Jesus is a bit of a
nuisance uh and and and and aand a wonder.
Like it's confusing why peoplewould believe this uh nonsense.
They too attest that Jesus wascrucified and that there's this

(15:44):
group of people who are who arefollowing him and believe that
he is a risen king, and all ofthat was it within the first
century after Jesus' death.
So not enough time for legendsto develop.
So that's kind of the secondmain theory that people uh it's
Jesus was a long time ago fromour vantage point.
It was not a long time ago forpeople who were writing about
it, whose accounts we haveaccess to today.

SPEAKER_03 (16:05):
You mentioned the gospels being biased.
Historical.
No, you didn't say biased,historical accounts of Jesus.
So how how do we know we cantrust the gospels and how
they're written?
And are they the same as whatthey were written as initially?
Yeah.
Has anything been changed?

SPEAKER_00 (16:26):
Yeah.
Uh so there is a fair case to bemade for these were men who uh
were close with Jesus and wantedto believe the things that they
were writing.
The biggest problem, this is whyI say it's a logical argument,
you don't have to like do abunch of gymnastics.
If you have four gospels, and ittook a lot to like compile
something of this nature, thatthat are they're saying, here's

(16:49):
what happened, and they're beingreleased within decades, these
eyewitnesses.
Um especially if you have a guylike Luke who's being
commissioned by Theophilus to uhgo, and he was, you know, he
basically sponsored to go in andinterview eyewitnesses.
Theophilus, Theophilus wasinterested in the truth.
Luke was a doctor interested inthe truth.
And so he's interviewing andsaying, Hey, this is a

(17:10):
compilation of my interview.
It's it's a just journalism, iswhat it is.
So you have that, but then morethan that is if these are put
out there, they just simplywouldn't get any traction if
they were just false.
You'd say, No, there's the bodyin the tomb, or there's the
people who said this neverhappened, and and it would be a
very nice story, but it wouldn'thave gotten any religious
fervor.
You have to remember thesepeople then died for this.

(17:30):
As far as we can tell, all ofthe you know, uh apostles and
and many disciples were martyredfor their faith.

SPEAKER_03 (17:36):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (17:36):
And so you you might make up a lie.
Are you gonna die for a lie?

SPEAKER_03 (17:40):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (17:41):
And more than that, are are are 100% of the apostles
gonna die for a lie?
That's the real thing that wehave to contend with.

SPEAKER_03 (17:46):
Yeah, exactly.
That and that was I do remember,I do remember that when I was
studying it a couple of yearsago, was but why would so many
people give their life for it ifit weren't true?
Right.
Or even yeah, which is which isvalid, unless they were all also

(18:08):
crazy.

SPEAKER_00 (18:09):
Sure.

SPEAKER_03 (18:10):
You can make the argument you can continue to
just say that.

SPEAKER_00 (18:15):
I mean the logic is so intricate and very logical,
you know, in in many ways.
Uh very true.
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (18:20):
Very true.

SPEAKER_00 (18:21):
Third theory.
Third.
It's called a swoon theory.

SPEAKER_03 (18:25):
Swoon theory.
The stolen body theory.

SPEAKER_00 (18:28):
That's next.
This is a swoon.
That's not even.
The swoon theory is that Jesusdidn't actually die.

SPEAKER_03 (18:38):
Oh, so he's up like he was crucified.
He was up on the cross.

SPEAKER_00 (18:41):
There's a reason we have an empty grave.
It's because he got up andwalked away.
Because he didn't walked out ofit.

SPEAKER_03 (18:46):
See, I have I have wondered this.

SPEAKER_00 (18:47):
You have wondered this?

SPEAKER_03 (18:48):
I have wondered this.

SPEAKER_00 (18:49):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (18:50):
How do we know he was dead when he was put in the
tomb?

SPEAKER_00 (18:52):
How do we know he's dead?

SPEAKER_03 (18:53):
Because they didn't pierce his heart.

SPEAKER_00 (18:54):
Of course, we weren't there, but we Yeah, we
weren't there.
So you know, can can we knowwith 100% certainty?
No.
But the the gymnastics, to useyour word, of how you'd have to
get to him are are quiteextensive.
So uh first of all, uh nobodyactually claims this.
This is a modern invention.
The swing theory?
Yeah.
That he didn't actually die.

(19:15):
Really?
100%.
If you look at this, thedisciples didn't say I mean, the
disciples didn't expect, youhave to remember that that that
Jesus, when Peter, when Jesussaid, Hey Peter, I'm gonna die,
they tell his disciple.
Peter's like, no, no, no.
He rebukes him.
And then there's a whole getbehind me Satan moment, right?
Yeah.
The disciples did not want Jesusto die.
Right.
If there was one opportunity tosay, Rome couldn't kill him,

(19:36):
this was it, right?
To to latch onto he he wasactually uh he actually overcame
the cross, not throughresurrection, but through just
being so strong that you can'tkill him.
That's a pretty compellingnarrative.

SPEAKER_03 (19:47):
That was a compelling narrative.

SPEAKER_00 (19:48):
That they didn't say that.
Not only that, but uh again,outside the Bible, we we just
covered this.
You got the Josephus and Tacitusand Pliny and whatever, they all
said Jesus was crucified by Romeand died.
There's not a hint in thehistorical record, even outside
the Bible, inside the Bible oroutside the Bible, that Jesus
didn't die.
So you have to go, okay, we areso totally imposing a theory on

(20:08):
this that no account of historyactually said.
Even in Islam, they don'tbelieve that Jesus was actually
crucified.
They believe that he was, youknow, his spirit left him before
he died on the cross.
But even those who don't believewhat we believe would say that
guy, that guy died on the cross.
Uh, the soldiers, they'reprofessional killers.
You have to remember it is theirjob to make sure that these

(20:30):
people are dead.
And you've got this fascinatingaccount right at the end of, I
think it's uh John, that uh itmight might be Matthew.
They went to each of I thinkit's Matthew, Matthew 27, they
went to each of the three thatwere on the cross.
Uh the two criminals that werenext to Jesus, they broke their
legs to speed up because it waslike almost, you know, it was it
was uh almost preparation day,and they they said, Hey, we

(20:52):
can't be doing this thiscrucifixion business on the
Sabbath kind of thing.
And so they went and broke thelegs to speed up their death.
So they were not dead.
Criminal one, two, not dead.
They come to Jesus and theysaid, But we don't even need to
break his legs, he's dead.

SPEAKER_03 (21:05):
Which ended up fulfilling a prophecy.

SPEAKER_00 (21:06):
Sure.
Yeah, absolutely.
Yep.
Uh but aside from those, somesome people don't care about
prophecy, right?
So say, okay.
Um but what did they do?
They still scourged him.
And uh out of his side came aflow of blood and water, which
said that there was a lot ofinflammation and whatever.
Those who kind of know the heartand the anatomy better than I do
would say that that was like youdon't survive something like

(21:28):
that.
Uh so aside from the fact thatprofessional killers deemed him
to be dead, they went the extrameasure of scourging him.
By the by the way, this is afterbeing arrested, beaten, flogged,
bled out, hours on the cross.

SPEAKER_02 (21:41):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (21:42):
Okay.
Nails, the whole bit.

SPEAKER_02 (21:44):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (21:45):
And then you have the this is later that day, then
Joseph of Arimathea said, Hey,can I have the body to go bury
it?
So then more some time longerwent by.
Then then Joseph took it, andthen they him and Nicodemus,
they wrap the body in his spicesand linens and whatever, prepare
it for burial.
So there's more time that goesby.
And there, if anybody's gonna belike, Oh, he's not actually
dead, it's there's them, right?

(22:05):
Yeah.
And then they put him in a tomband he's there for two nights,
Friday night and Saturday night,with no medical attention in the
dark.
So even if by some chance thisguy was not actually dead and he
like roused or whatever, are yougoing to survive two nights in a
t in a cold, dark, empty tombwith no medical attention?

(22:27):
And more than that, Sundaymorning comes, and what who's
who's still there?
The guards are still there.

SPEAKER_02 (22:32):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (22:33):
The tomb is the the stone is, are you saying that
Jesus in that state, after allof that, with no medical
attention, got up, moved thestone himself somehow, overcame
the Roman guards who are thereprecisely to prevent something
like this from happening.
Their job was to keep that bodyin the tomb.
And then, not only that, withouta nap, the guy gets up and

(22:54):
starts doing ministry.
You know, he appears to Mary andthen John and Peter and then
goes to other disciples, andhe's he's hanging out.
This is not a guy who's indesperate need of medical
attention.

SPEAKER_03 (23:05):
Yeah, and the accounts in the Bible, they
don't see him and freak outbecause of all how bloody he is.

SPEAKER_00 (23:10):
Yeah, they're not like, oh my gosh, you need help.
You're right.
He's just he's just bouncingaround, he's doing great.

SPEAKER_03 (23:14):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (23:15):
So all of that, aside again, but to back go back
to what I said, nobody claimsthis is true.
Not only does nobody complain itto be true, but it that it would
be so far fetched you'd have tocall it faith to believe that
this this is true.

SPEAKER_03 (23:28):
Yeah.
Cause if he were able to movethe stone and so then people
then he would have to have Godlike power to do that anyway.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (23:36):
Which Yeah.
Do you see uh as mentioned, doyou see how you don't have to be
an expert in this to just pieceit together and go, that's a
crazy idea.

SPEAKER_03 (23:43):
Yeah, but I can see how if someone is really dead
set on not believing it, theycan convince it.

SPEAKER_00 (23:47):
But you have to have a convinced presupposition that
that it didn't happen and not beweighing the evidence.
That is true.
Are you ready for number four?
I'm you've been waiting for thestarting.
They moved the body.
Yes, they've stolen or moved.
Stolen, stolen or moved.
Okay, so there's three kind ofuh ways this could happen.
This is arguab arguably the mostlikely, right?
Because you have a dead body andthen you have an empty tomb.

(24:09):
So so this is probably where Andthen no one can find the dead
body.
And then no one can find it.
Okay.
So this is either Jewish orRoman authorities uh moved the
body for some sort of practicalreason.
Uh grave robbers stole the body.
Uh or the disciples removed thebody and then fabricated the
story.
Okay.
Um so uh one by one, Jewish orRoman authorities relocated the

(24:30):
body for practical reasons.
Again, no record of this at all.
It's something we're totallyimposing.
It's not anywhere in the story.
Uh the tomb, uh uh uh there wasnot an apparent reason why they
would need to uh move this.
Uh so like why why would they goto the trouble of saying, oh, we
have a buried body and now weneed to relocate him.
They you have to remember, Pilotput guards around the tomb.

(24:51):
And there's this veryinteresting, they they put a
seal around it, which doesn'tnecessarily mean like a um
wasn't a secure wasn't aphysical security measure and
that like it's harder to moveit.
It was a seal, like a signetkind of a thing.
It was an extra sign to say ifyou go in here, not only are you
uh grave robbing, which isalready a crime, but you but it
was it was pilot's extra, likeyou this is a now a h high

(25:14):
high-handed, high-level crimethat you're committing.
Okay.
Um so so there was there waslike these structures built
around this tomb to say this iswe're not gonna tamper with
this.
So it'd only have worked againstRome to like tamper with the
body at that point in timebecause there was this, you
know, that's why the guard wasthere.
He this guy said that he wasgonna raise from the dead.
And so let's put put a guardthere until the until the third

(25:35):
day is what uh the gospels say.
Until the third day to make sureto guard this key window of
time, to make sure that thatbody stays put.
So there's no reason why uhRome, and again, go back to all
this is true of this wholetheory.
All Rome would have had to dowould be to produced, produce
the body if indeed they movedit.
Okay.
They moved it and they said, No,it's in this grave instead.

(25:56):
Here it is.
Uh grave robbers.
Uh grave robbery was somewhatcommon, right, at the time.
And the reason people would raverob graves is not to uh get the
body back, but to get thevaluable things that were buried
along with the body.
And very interestingly, we haveuh it uh said in John that John,
uh the Nicodemus and Joseph ofAermathea wrapped the body with

(26:19):
linens and spices.
There were 75 pounds of uh myrrhand aloes, 75 pounds.
I actually did the research onthis in preparation for this.
I was like, how much, how muchis that in dollars?
The estimates vary, but anywherebetween$50,000 and$200,000 in
today's money.
Okay?
That's a lot.
Yeah, it also weighs a lot.
It also weighs a lot 75 pounds.

(26:40):
Yeah, that's rucking rightthere.
That's on the way on the way tothe tomb.
And so uh we have to ask then,what would the grave robbers be
interested in taking if theywere going to rob the grave?
The answer is not the body.
You don't take the you you takethe the spices that are embedded
in the linens.
That's where the value was.
If you know the Easter story,what's gone from the tomb?

(27:02):
The body.
The body.
What's left in the tomb?
The linens.
The linens.
So the very thing that held themost value is actually this
exactly the thing that was leftbehind.
So there's very little to saythat like some somebody who's in
it for financial incentive,non-disciples, would have uh
moved the body.
And then, of course, you get tothe disciples stealing the body.
And there's all sorts ofproblems with this.
Number one, that they uh didn'texpect Jesus to raise from the

(27:24):
dead.
Again, this is really core.
This is not expected, eventhough Jesus was clear about it,
even after he raised from thedead, they still weren't getting
it.
Mary is sad in in John's gospelwhen the tomb's empty.
She sees the angel and she says,They've taken, they have taken
the body, and I don't know wherethey they've taken him.
She sees Jesus, mistakes him forthe gardener, and says, Have you

(27:47):
taken the body?
Just show me where it is so thatI can go get him back.

SPEAKER_03 (27:50):
Why do you think she didn't recognize him?

SPEAKER_00 (27:52):
That's a whole interesting side side
conversation.
Um the disciples again wouldhave had it to subdue the Roman
guards.
That's the whole point, is therewas a conspiracy on the table of
these guys are interested inthis Messiah.
He said he was gonna raise onthe third day.
Oddly, even though the disciplesweren't cute cued into this, the
chief priests were very much,and they wanted to say, we need

(28:14):
to get to the third day, becausethat's when he said it would
happen.
And so there's a lot ofattention from the chief priests
and Pilate to say we need tomake sure that thing is secure.
And so you're gonna say thedisciples overcame the
profession again, professionalRoman guards who sealed the
tomb, you know.
Uh, and again, uh, maybe uh mostimportant is uh these people
died for this.

(28:34):
It goes back to the conversationwe already had.
Do you steal a body and then sayhe raised from the dead and then
have universal martyrdom forthose who are closest with
Jesus?
It just doesn't make sense.

SPEAKER_03 (28:48):
Yeah, especially the way that a lot of them were
killed too.

SPEAKER_00 (28:50):
That's right.

SPEAKER_03 (28:51):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (28:52):
More than any of that, again, this is where it
all fits together.
The post-resurrectionappearances are critical.
It's not just an empty tomb.
It is the fact that he appearedto lots and lots of people
afterwards.
If we just had it, then theremight be some semblance of okay,
all those things could happen,but that's just not the case.
He showed up to a lot of peopleafterwards.
Those are the four.

SPEAKER_03 (29:11):
Those are the four.

SPEAKER_00 (29:12):
Yep.

SPEAKER_03 (29:13):
And then what are the four?
Well, actually, before we getinto that, yeah.
Why three days?

SPEAKER_02 (29:19):
Hmm.

SPEAKER_03 (29:21):
Like, why not?
Because what why not a week?
Why not a month?
Yeah.
Why three days?

SPEAKER_00 (29:28):
Yeah.
Um you've probably heard of likeEnglish graves having a bell on
top of them.
Have you seen this?
It's wild.
There was enough like peoplebeing buried before they were
actually dead, in like, I don'tknow when this would have been
hundreds of years ago.
Yeah.
Uh like mistaken, likeapparently morticians and

(29:48):
whatever they were not good attheir job.
So they would unbox people andthen they would find like
scratch marks on the inside oftheir coffins and be like, oh my
god, our bad.
Joe was still alive.
So uh so they end up puttinglike bells on on the insides of
coffins so that people couldreach for a string and it would
be attached to a bell, uh like astring that would go up to a
bell on the surface.

(30:09):
And they'd literally be likebells ringing, you know, on on
the surface.
Okay.
But again, you're gonna likethat's that's gonna be something
that you you know, you're gonnahear that bell ring in short
order after that thing's buried,because otherwise you're gonna
suffocate and and and dieanyway.
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (30:22):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (30:22):
All that to say, there there was a belief, uh
this is maybe where I'm gettinga little bit out of my league,
but so far as I can tell, umthere was a belief in in uh
Jewish you know culture thatlike the spirit would hang
around the body uh for for acouple days.
And so it was like Friday, maybethe spirit's still there.
Saturday, maybe the spirit'sstill there.
Uh but by the time Sunday rollsaround, the guy's dead, dead.

(30:45):
Even even if this like kind ofsuperstitious, uh it's not
scripture, but like, hey, maybethe spirit might come back and
and re-vivify this person sothat they they can come back to
life.
So by by arriving at Sunday,it's sort of like it's done.
Uh that's my best understanding,is Jesus said, I it um past past
the time when uh even yourcategories of superstition could

(31:05):
have still allowed me to it'sthe swim theory to come back.

SPEAKER_03 (31:10):
Yeah, I think.

unknown (31:11):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (31:12):
Yeah.
I think it's really interestingsomething you said about the
thing that was most valuable inthe eyes of the world was the
thing left behind.
I don't know that really stuckwith me.
Yeah.
And it was him that was gone,but he was actually the most
valuable thing.

SPEAKER_00 (31:31):
Yes.

SPEAKER_03 (31:32):
And how insane is it sometimes?
I mean, I'm totally like, I justreally got caught there.
Now I'm thinking like, how oftendo we focus on the thing that is
so worldly important to us andlike leave behind what God wants
us to do?

SPEAKER_00 (31:50):
You're preaching now.

SPEAKER_03 (31:53):
Like what Jesus actually wants us to do.
Um I think there needs to belike a whole sermon just on what
was left in the grave.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (32:00):
There's like you can have all this world.

SPEAKER_03 (32:02):
But give me Jesus.

SPEAKER_00 (32:03):
Give me Jesus.

unknown (32:04):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (32:04):
I love that song.

SPEAKER_00 (32:05):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (32:06):
That's such a good one.
Okay.
What are the four?
So, I mean, we kind of embeddedsome of them there, but I pretty
much covered all of them.
Yes.

SPEAKER_00 (32:12):
But if you want to like sit down and somebody comes
to you and that's that coffeethat that guy had with you, what
are the four like why should Ibelieve aside from the kind of
debunking, which I think ishelpful to walk through, there's
four things.
Uh Jesus died, the tomb wasempty, he appeared after, and
then Christianity exploded.

(32:35):
Those four things are really allyou need to know.
If those are true, then I thinkit's pretty said and done.
Somebody would have a very, veryhard time explaining all four of
those things aside from theresurrection.
So Jesus died.
This goes fast, right?
We talked about the professionalkillers, these soldiers.

(32:59):
Spear in aside after floggingand crucifixion and being beat
and what hanging hours on thecross.
Uh there's nobody who survivesthat kind of thing.
Um and then two nights in atomb, no medical attention.
More than that, it wasn't aJewish expectation that for this
guy to rise.
Jews did have a category forresurrection, but it was for
everybody at the end of the age.

(33:20):
It was never for one person inthe middle of history.
This is why you get into theSadducees didn't believe in the
resurrection, the Pharisees did,the Pharisees did not believe in
this kind of resurrection.
And that's why the that's whythe disciples are rebuking him
because they go, if you die,it's done.
We're not going to see you againuntil the final resurrection.
That's why, even when he died,and even when he said, I will
rise again, they did notunderstand that it was going to

(33:42):
happen soon.
At best, they were thinkingwe'll see this guy at the end of
the age.
The Bible says Jesus died,history says he died.
Nobody says Jesus didn'tactually die.
So if that's true, Texas numbertwo, the tomb was empty.
So he he was buried.
Joseph Arimathea donated a tomb,wrapped the body.

(34:05):
Uh it's not just a biblicalaccount.
You have Rome guarding the tombwith soldiers and a seal.
It was a very politicized thing.
Jesus was politicized during hislife.
That's why he was crucified.
So it's the chief priests comingto Pilate.
And very interestingly, you havethem saying, We don't want
people to, we don't want thedisciples to come steal his
body.
So it's there in the gospels.

(34:25):
That whole theory of graverobbery or of the disciples
taking, it's right there.
They're actually the reasonthere was guards there is not
because Pilate instigated, butbecause the chief priest said,
We don't want this rumor toactually come true.
And so set up a guard.
Um so uh it was an earlyattestation.
This is not later added inhistory.
Um, again, no Jewish categoryfor a risen Messiah.

(34:48):
Um, there's all sorts of like uhtruth vibes, I'll call it, to
this story, too.
There's there's details to thisthat you would not include if
you were writing this as ahero's tale.
You've got Peter swearing hisallegiance and abandoning Jesus
during his trial.
Uh the the disciples justscattering him when he's uh

(35:09):
arrested.
Uh the women, uh, you probablyheard this one as first
witnesses, not just of the emptytomb, but of Jesus'
resurrection.
So it's Mary who goes and tellsJohn and Peter the tomb is
empty.
And she's sad about it.
And then she then again she isthe first person to see Jesus.
She mistakes him for thegardener, but she's and she's uh

(35:30):
he says, Why are you weeping?
And then Jesus commissions herto go and tell the rest of the
disciples that he's been raised.
You you don't in that timeempower a woman with that kind
of news because their testimonywas not even admissible in
court.
They were they were not seen asreliable witnesses.
For something as momentous asthe resurrection, you don't add

(35:52):
that detail in unless it's true.
It only takes away from thenarrative.
Uh the disciples didn'tunderstand.
Again, Mary was confused, shewas sad when she saw the empty
tomb, not happy.
John went in and saw the emptytomb, he believed, but then he
says, in his own gospel, writingabout his own encounter in the
tomb, he still did notunderstand that this was to fill
the fulfill the scriptures thatJesus raised from the dead.

(36:14):
Uh then you've got uh Thomas'sdisbelief, of course, famously
saying, I won't believe until Iam able to touch touch his
wounds, whatever.
And then Jesus offers.
Uh and then the wounds alsoremaining in Jesus' hands and
his side.
Those aren't details that you'dinclude if he was resurrected.
If you're gonna say the dude isresurrected in a glorified body,
what are you gonna say?
You're gonna say he's perfect.
Yeah.

(36:34):
So those are details that againonly would go, uh, they'd cast
it out.
If you're gonna write this, youdon't write it that way.
Um so if you look at all ofthat, it this is a story that
kind of like uh smells ofreality, of a true story,
because it has these thingsbaked in that aren't perfectly
clean and crisp and polished.
Make sense?
So Jesus died.

(36:56):
Um the tomb was actually empty,and then he actually appeared.
So uh we're told eleven timesJesus appeared on different
occasions over a 40-day span todifferent people, men, women,
individuals, couples, groups.
He ate fish.
He invited people to touch hiswomb.
So this isn't just a uh a ghostthat people were seeing.
It was a physical Jesus who wasphysically interacting with uh

(37:19):
these people.
Um and again, nobody expectedthat Jesus would rise from the
dead.
Um, all of them knew this Jesusbefore he died, and so they were
able to recognize him when hecame back.
They said, This is the Jesusthat we followed.
And fourth and finally, uh, andand equally as important, the
very place that Jesus wascrucified was the place where
Christianity was born andexploded.

(37:42):
You have these disciples who didnot believe hours before,
completely changing their beliefsystem.
You have Jesus' own brother,James, going from calling Jesus
crazy, being nowhere to be seenat his crucifixion, to then
interacting with his resurrectedbrother and the early church and

(38:03):
becoming a leader in the earlychurch.
You know, we joke about it, butit's like, what would your
brother have to do to convinceyou that he was God?
A lot.
A whole ton.
But again, that's like, ofcourse, his brothers didn't
believe, and then of course theydid.
Like uh if this is true, thenthen their lives are changed.
Uh the martyrdom uh of thedisciples as as a concrete
testimony that these peopleactually believe this.

(38:23):
And then the very town in whichJesus was crucified uh saw a
revival.
We see thousands of people in avery short order at Pentecost
believe in the name of Jesus.
And then it only exploded fromthat.
And within within uh decades, itwent from a persecuted to an
allowed religion, and thenwithin uh you know, by 300, we
have it being the state religionin Rome.

(38:45):
The politics that crushed Jesuswere then the ones that
proclaimed him as the trueresurrected king just a couple
centuries later.
That is a really, reallydifficult thing to explain.
If it was all just a farce.
How how else do you come to theconclusion that this thing
spread like wildfire when hejust hours earlier was seen as a
criminal on a cross?

(39:06):
At best, a political rebel whodidn't things didn't go his way.
So those four things.
He died, that two tomb wasempty, people saw him after, and
Christianity exploded.
I think that's the best case forthe resurrection.

SPEAKER_03 (39:20):
It's almost an acronym.

SPEAKER_00 (39:22):
What is it?
You think about it?

SPEAKER_03 (39:24):
It could be dead, which is ironic because it's
about him being alive.
But it's death, empty, appear,and then D for but the D would
have to be something, or itcould be deer for reach, the R
could be reach.

SPEAKER_00 (39:37):
We'll come we're so close.
We can workshop this.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (39:40):
We can workshop.

SPEAKER_00 (39:40):
What's another word for explosion that starts with a
D?
Or transformation.

SPEAKER_03 (39:45):
Dynamo, dynamite, dynamite.

SPEAKER_00 (39:48):
Dynamite.
We sounded so smart until thelast word of the academic.
Right?
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (39:53):
Um if the okay, since if there's such clear
evidence of the resurrection,then why is it why is
Christianity not Christianity isgrowing?
But why is there why why is itso hard for people to believe?
If the very key thing logicallycan be explained, the thing that

(40:17):
all of it hinges on.

SPEAKER_00 (40:18):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (40:20):
Why is everyone not a Christian?

SPEAKER_00 (40:23):
I'll give three reasons.
One, I don't think people takethe time to think about it.
This this took some time to likefeel through.
I think people are scrollingInstagram and walking their dog
and worried about their workoutroutine and all the rest.
I don't think people actuallypause to think about the most
important questions in life.
I think people we used to bevery good at that.

(40:44):
It's kind of a classicaleducation.
You ask, why are we here?
What is our purpose?
Uh why is there somethinginstead of nothing?
What do we make of the mostimportant historical figures?
I I think at least in the Westand in the last 150 years, we've
we've really gotten away fromasking some of the most
important questions.
I think people are distractedinto oblivion.

(41:05):
Number two, uh, it is admittedlya weird thing to believe because
it doesn't happen all the time.
So there's like a, oh, this iswhat we are what we're talking
about is not just a logicalthing.
It is a deeply, it's it's calleda miracle for a reason.
And that's that there is no uhlogical explanation for like
natural explanation for ithappening.

(41:26):
There's only a supernaturalexplanation for it happening.
So kind of the way that you getthere is you back into that's
why I we talked about these fourcompeting theories that and kind
of debunking them is you have togo, okay, what what's what's a
reasonable explanation that thatcould have led to this?
And you go, oh yes, that seeeach of those explains part of
it, but then you get you getinto it like that's
unexplainable with that, youknow?

(41:47):
And so you kind of back into it.
So I think that there is, it'suh it's a it's a not
counterintuitive thing tobelieve.
And and the Bible, as we'vesaid, is not shy about that.
It was hard for even the peoplewho are closest to Jesus to
believe that.
Third, uh, and this is not alogical argument, but this is
where we dip into uh thespiritual realities.
If we believe what the Biblesays, and here's a cool thing if

(42:07):
you believe that Jesus rose fromthe dead, you have to then
reckon with what Jesus believed.
Like I'm not a very smartperson.
Here's my I will, I will, I'llgo with the resurrected guy
every time.
Right?
Like if he says something, heprobably knows if somebody says
something and then they die andrise again.
I'm gonna go, I think I'm gonnaagree with them.

SPEAKER_03 (42:26):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (42:26):
Yeah.
And so it the logic beyond thatis like, okay, if Jesus believed
the Bible, I'm gonna believe theBible too, if in in what
scripture teaches.
The resurrection was his stampof authority and approval on the
things that he said and taughtduring his life and ministry.
And if one of those things isthe truth of what we call the
Old Testament or the Hebrewscriptures, which he believed.

(42:49):
We we're taught that we arebroken, sinful, uh, and without
any hope on our own.
That we are created in love, weruined it by rebellion, we are
lost and without hope with ourown resources, and that the the
gospels depict a rescue missionof Jesus coming to do what we
never could do ourselves.

(43:09):
And so if you believe that thereis a very real spiritual reality
and a hardness of our heart thatactually keeps us from
faithfulness, belief, the thingsof God, um, and and there is a
very real spiritual enemy thattempts, accuses, lies, and pulls
us away, uh, then of course thevery thing that Satan is going

(43:30):
to come after is, as we said atthe beginning, the linchpin of
the whole thing in theresurrection.
Because if he can keep you fromthat, then nothing else matters.

SPEAKER_03 (43:41):
Nothing else matters.
When did you believe?

SPEAKER_00 (43:47):
It's an interesting question.
So here's where uh the honestyof my testimony, I think, is uh
I almost wish my story wasdifferent.
But I'll be honest with you,because I think the tr it's it's
the truth is worth worthsharing, you know, and it's it's
good to be honest about ourstories because uh first of all
it's the truth, but second ofall, I think the other people
might have the same testimonyand it might might resonate.

(44:09):
Uh the very short version of mystory is that I was an atheist
in in high school.
Uh it was more of a socialatheism than an intellectual
atheism.
Uh my whole world fell apart uhafter some things that I was
relying on and finding myidentity and went away.
And I found myself lost lonelyand looking for purpose and
friends.
September of 2007, I kind ofstarted hanging out with some

(44:31):
Christians, really liked, wascompelled by their lifestyle,
their love for each other,whatever, but thought their
belief was crazy.
Went to a concert, uh, and inthe middle it was like a total
bait and switch.
Preacher guy got up.
I thought I was just there forthe good music.
He shares the gospel and uhsomething about what he talked
about, this God that would chaseus down in love, despite our
rebellion, uh, and die for usand be raised for us and live

(44:52):
for us and invite us in and uhthat in Christ we can be called
family and forgiven.
And I've hope.
That was I probably heard thatbefore.
Uh, this is where I thinklooking back, there's there's a
spiritual reality of God doingsomething in your heart to to
bring life where there is death.
So something radically shiftedin my heart.
And I use that that languageintentionally, my heart in that
moment.

(45:13):
Where I said, if that's true,then that's worth giving up
everything for.
And so I found my s my hand inthe air doing the altar call
thing.
To my surprise and to myfriend's surprise, and all this.
So I went from like prettydeeply ingrained healing.
Dug in atheist, you know,because that was where I lot
found a lot of my identity whenmy identity was lost in some

(45:34):
other areas.
I was like, at least I can clingto my atheism because it's a way
for me to look down my nose andkind of be an intellectual snob
and call these other peoplefantasy chasers and whatever.
Religion is a crutch.
You need that, I don't needthat, all that sort of stuff.
And so when when my hand was inthe air, I was like, okay, I
deeply want this thing to betrue.
And this is where I would rathermy story go.

(45:54):
I had the least roble story, didthe research, the logic bore
out, and then I was there.
The reality is God came out frommy heart first, uh, and then my
mind second.
And it's a little bituncomfortable to say because you
you you probably can feel in,oh, that's that's uh a bias,
then you know, of course, you'regonna chase the things.
I hope that we've seen here thatthere's like I'm a a logical

(46:15):
person that that and a lot ofthis is the apologetics, is born
out of that season after Isurrender to Christ.
Sort of had the Peter when whenwhen Jesus says the hard thing,
you know, I think it's eat myflesh and drink my blood, and
the crowds leave, and then heturns to his disciples and said,
Are you gonna leave too?
And Peter, Peter, he goes, uh,where else are we gonna go?
You are the one who has thewords of life, you know.

(46:36):
And that was the that was thecompelling part for me.
Uh is like I don't know for surethat this is true yet, but I do
know that all of that's I'vetried that, and it's pretty
hopeless and purposeless.
And so I was like, I don't knowwhat it is, but I'm really
compelled by Jesus.
And so I wanted to dig in andsee, because you the you think
you can't go from atheist tolukewarm Christian or atheist to

(46:57):
like non-intellectual Christian.
Like, that's not really a God.
Right.
So I think God used my myatheism actually as a just a
propeller for me to dive in deepto the intellectual side of
things because I wanted to beable to answer the questions
that I had been wrestling withfor so long and the doubts that
I had for so long.
And so I just did a multi-yeardeep dive into those doubts and

(47:18):
those questions.
And far from like excusing orshoehorning, I actually found,
oh man, this is a reallycompelling faith that we have.
That when Jesus said, uh, wasasked, What's the you know,
greatest commandment?
He said, Worship the Lord withall of your heart and strength
and soul and your mind.
Mind.
And I said, Okay, this is aninvitation to an intellectual

(47:40):
faith that we uh are invited toask the hard questions.
If you look at doubters in thegospel, Jesus is kind, you know,
to to doubters.
Help my unbelief.
And uh Tim Keller has a greatline.
He says, uh, a faith withoutdoubt is like a body without
antibodies in it.
Okay, that that body dies, thatbody's vulnerable.
And so it's a really, reallygood and healthy thing for

(48:01):
somebody who is wrestling withbecause if you just believe
everything you take in, you'reit's called being vulnerable or
gullible.
And we are never called to hacheck our brain at the door when
it comes to our faith.
We're called to wrestle deeplywith these things.
That's what Israel means.
It literally means to wrestlewith God.
It is a hand-to-hand wrestlingmatch, and that's that's what it

(48:22):
is, and that's the name that Godgave Israel.
And I think it is throughwrestling that we see fruit most
born in us, not throughpretending.
So that was my journey of goingfrom unbelief to belief and from
uncertainty to uh I think therewe stand on really, really solid
ground.

SPEAKER_03 (48:40):
I love that.
It's a great story.
I grew up in a Christian home.
So, and around all Christians.
And so it was, I don't know,there was never um I never, I
never doubted.
I mean, I'm I did doubt, but Ijust always believed it was true

(49:01):
because I was always taught itwas true.
Yeah.
And it was just like eatingvegetables, right?
Like it's something else, theright thing that you do.
So I think in some ways I'vewished that were different.
I would love to, you know, youhear about people who um they
they went from like no faith,not being able to understand the

(49:24):
Bible to like one day readingit, and it's like scripture says
like the scales fell from theireyes, and it was just I always
kind of wished I had that kindof experience to where it was
all just one big day thateverything opened up.
Yeah.
But it hasn't been.
It's just been different.

SPEAKER_00 (49:42):
I say there's Peter stories and Paul stories.
The Paul stories, you know,there's the road, you know, uh
uh not the road to Mayus, roadDamascus.
Damascus.
Uh fell off his horse blind, youknow.
Right?
Exactly.
You asked Paul when histestimony was, and it's like the
Baptist answer of like, I cantell you the day and the time of
the hour, right?
Uh and then there's a Peter.
You tell me where in the GospelsPeter was saved.

SPEAKER_03 (50:06):
He was saved several different times.

SPEAKER_00 (50:09):
Yeah.
But so like there's up and downand up and down.
Yeah.
And I think that that we haveit's a gift to have both of
those stories in scripturebecause it gives uh
encouragement for those who wentfrom death to life in an instant
and they can say it.
It also gives a lot ofencouragement and hope for those
who are like, you know what?
And to parents, like God blessyour parents for raising you in
a home that like talked aboutJesus and honored Jesus.

(50:33):
Because I I had a more of a Paulstory.
I could tell you September 23rd,2007.
I I almost don't want my kids tohave a Paul story, right?
I want them to when they'repressed, when did you surrender?
Like I grew up with this and Igrew up loving Jesus.
And I can't tell you the day orthe hour because God's kindness
was just a topic in ourhousehold all the time.

SPEAKER_02 (50:52):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (50:52):
And I believe from a young age.
And uh well, that's not gonna bethe thing that catches most
testimony videos at churches,you know, because it's not the
drug sex and rock and roll.
And it I think there is power inthat faithful testimony.
So I just want to like forpeople who have your story and
your testimony, don't be ashamedof it, right?
Lean lean into that.
That's actually the way that GodI think designed, designed

(51:13):
families to operate when they'rehealthy is for kids to grow up
knowing the love of Christ.

SPEAKER_03 (51:17):
Yeah.
I have been ashamed of it for awhile.
I've I've a long time and I I'vetalked to a couple of other
people who share that sentimentwith me, other preachers' kids
and things where they're like,man, I just feel like I can't
even be used in God's kingdombecause I'm not the one that
went away.
I'm not the sheep, you know, theone that that Jesus, I mean,
Jesus goes after all of usright.
Yeah, right.
But um but I do appreciate yousaying that because I do agree.

(51:41):
It's it's different.
But there is like there'sdefinitely been temptations in
my life, things that had I notbeen raised the way I was and
have the belief, I my life wouldprobably be very different right
now.
And so God saved me from thingsbefore those things probably

(52:02):
played out.
But he still saved me from them.

SPEAKER_00 (52:06):
Sure.
And that was his And Jesus tellsyou talk about chasing the lost
sheep.
Jesus in that same section uh inLuke tells the parable of the
prodigal son.
But it's really prodigal sons.
You've got you've got two ofthem who are running from the
father in just in very differentways.
Uh one gets all the attentionand whatever, but then there's
this one who was very close tohome but still lost.

(52:27):
And so there is a Jesus tellsthat story, I think, for to say,
like, hey, you can wreck yourlife through despair, you know,
and doing your own thing,outward rebellion, or you can
wreck your life through prideand inward rebellion, but both
take you away from the father.
And then and Jesus comes to say,uh, neither the way of pride or
despair is is is the way tolife.
It is the way through me, right?

(52:48):
It's like I'm the one who bringsboth of those in.
So either way.
Don't be ashamed of your story.

SPEAKER_03 (52:54):
Yeah.
Um why did Mary see a gardenerand not recognize Jesus for who
he was?
That's a good question.

SPEAKER_00 (53:04):
That's a good question.
Um I don't know if I have agreat answer to that.
At surface level, um Jesus is ina resurrection body.
So we know there's somethingdifferent about him, right?
If we're told, I think uh PaulPaul talks about how we we be
we're gonna be raised to umincorruptible bodies, right?

(53:29):
They're probably gonna lookdifferent to some extent, I
don't know how.
Obviously, it's not so differentthat she goes, you're not even
human, you know.
But it was something differentenough to where like it she
didn't quite recognize him.
But then but then and maybe thisis this is where it is for Mary,
because it doesn't say thatother people didn't recognize
Jesus.
So that's kind of critical too.
And remember at this time Marydidn't believe.

SPEAKER_03 (53:53):
Mary Magdalene?

SPEAKER_00 (53:54):
She approached she approached the Jesus as the
gardener, uh-huh, and she says,They have taken the body of my
Lord.

SPEAKER_02 (54:03):
Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 (54:04):
She says that first the angel, then she says, Have
you taken the body of my Lord?
If you have, tell me where he isso that I can go get him.

SPEAKER_03 (54:13):
So what do you mean she doesn't believe?

SPEAKER_00 (54:15):
She they've taken the body of my lord.

SPEAKER_03 (54:18):
So she doesn't believe that he's raised from
the dead.

SPEAKER_00 (54:20):
She just thinks that his body's gone.
She knows his body's gone andshe's she I I need to go get it
back.
She's just trying to do the likethe honorable thing.
And then she then he says oneword.
Remember?

SPEAKER_03 (54:30):
Hold on, let me think.
What does he say?
I know what he says.

SPEAKER_00 (54:35):
He calls her by name.
He says Mary.
That's it.
That's what he says.
That's all he says.
Says Mary.
And then she says Reboni, whichit means teacher.

SPEAKER_03 (54:44):
So she recognizes it.

SPEAKER_00 (54:45):
And then she recognizes him.
So so it might not be a physicalthing that is going on.
It might be a spiritual thingthat just as she is spiritually
saying, This is Jesus, that thesort of scales fell off of her
own eyes and she recognizes himfor who he is.
I have a hunch that's more thelane.

SPEAKER_03 (55:04):
Yeah.
I mean, I was thinking along thelines of she just wasn't
expecting him.
Like when you're in a situationand you see someone you know,
but you're they're out ofcontext, it's not who you
expect, and you kind of don'trealize it's them until you
actually pay attention.
Or wondering if she was stuck inher shame and just wasn't
actually like looking at thisperson.

SPEAKER_00 (55:25):
That's very possible.

SPEAKER_03 (55:26):
So she didn't notice?

SPEAKER_00 (55:27):
It's very possible.
At the same time, she approacheshim and asks, Oh bum.

SPEAKER_03 (55:31):
There you go.

SPEAKER_00 (55:32):
You know, so she's in in her right mind enough to
at least say, like, I've got aproblem in front of me, I want
to solve it.
And there's this guy, can youhelp?
You know.
So maybe.
But I think there's somethinggoing on with him calling her by
name.

SPEAKER_02 (55:44):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (55:44):
And then her recognizing and then worshiping
him as Lord.

SPEAKER_03 (55:49):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (55:50):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (55:52):
As we wrap up, when you think about the things that
you have done, and maybe it'sthings you did, or maybe it's
things you continue to do now,like habits you have that keep
you focused on the things thatmatter most, focused on Jesus,
on studying the Bible andunderstanding what it says.
Because I'm guessing you didn'tjust stop doing that back then.

(56:15):
Um what are what are thosethings that keep you grounded?

SPEAKER_00 (56:23):
Um I'll give like a maybe the answer you're hoping
for, and maybe the one that Ididn't expect.
Uh uh so uh one is that I I uhmake it a very intentional habit
practice to listen to voicesthat I don't agree with.
I think everybody should dothat.
That's right, it drives me nutsif somebody goes, Oh, I can't
believe that you follow thatperson on Instagram or that you

(56:46):
listen, read that book by thatauthor, because don't you know
what else they said?
I'm like, yeah, absolutely.
Like, if you just live in anecho chamber, then you will it
is intellectually justdevastating.
Yeah, you'll be dumber.

SPEAKER_03 (57:00):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (57:00):
So listen to people who who you disagree with.
Um so don't just listen to thisis this is important.
Don't just read Lee Stroble.
Watch Lee Strouble in a debatewith somebody else.
Or go watch the YouTube video ofthe person who says, here's, you
know, four reasons why theresurrection is is you know
bogus.
Go listen to those people.
Wrestle with those voices.
Um otherwise you'll be scared ofthe truth and instead of

(57:21):
liberated by it.
Uh second and more maybe morepersonal and more pastoral is
our son Elon.
So we uh Elon, uh the very shortversion is he was born in uh
2017 with a very, very raregenetic defect in his brain.
You talked with Cash and my wifeon on this podcast, uh, or one
of your one of your podcasts,Gimberly.

(57:42):
Um and he's like one of fourdocumented kids in the whole
world with this thing.
And we know that his lifespanwill not be uh long.
We don't know what that lookslike.
There's a lot of factors, but wedon't know when we will say
goodbye to Elan.
Uh, but we know that we will.
Uh his life is kind of ongoing,fragile, lots of medications,

(58:03):
lots of hospital visits, youknow, and so death feels kind of
constantly near for us and forhim and his story.
Uh that is we live in a brokenworld, and Elon is uh his story
is that way because we live in abroken world.
That said, we cannot be peoplewho just eat, drink, and be

(58:24):
merry and avoid thinking aboutdeath.
There is a gift in thinkingabout death.
I read a pastor a while agolament the fact that we've
gotten rid of uh the thetradition of having graveyards
in the front of churches that wego to.
We like to show up on Sunday andit's nice and clean and bright
and uh happy and joyful, right?

(58:44):
Because we're called to bejoyful.
But for a long time, uh manyplaces, parishioners would have
to walk past a graveyard intothe doors of their church to
worship on a Sunday morning.
And in so doing, they would haveto reckon every single week with
death.
Every single week they'd look atnames, dates, and dates and say,

(59:05):
That'll be me too, one day.
To dust I will return.
And that is a sobering realitythat keeps you grounded and
keeps you mindful of your ownfrailty, keeps you from pride,
mindful of your own mortality,and most of all reminded that
you, if you're gonna have anyhope beyond the grave, then it's
gotta come from somebody elserather than you.

(59:25):
It has to come from thisresurrection story that we've
been talking about today.
Elon is our our kind ofgravestone, is kind of
difficult, is that is to say, hekeeps us reminded that
resurrection has to be real forhis story to have any hope.
And the reality is too that thatuh it makes us think not just
about his story, but our own.

(59:45):
Because um as sad as it will bewhen we have to say goodbye to
Elon, we will all die.
And if Elon were perfectlyhealthy, if we prayed our
prayers, we prayed for miraclesin his life, if those were
answered tomorrow and he wassuddenly a perfectly normal,
healthy boy, he will still die.
You see?
So resurrection must be real ifwe're gonna have any hope.

(01:00:08):
And so um he keeps us really,really grounded.
Um and uh and resurrection istop of mind for the Shumei
family.
And I think that's a gift of Godthat he has given us through
Elon's story.
Um, we are mindful of the factthat we will be raised one day,
that death doesn't get the finalword, that we will be raised
with incorruptible bodies toeverlasting life because Jesus

(01:00:29):
was the first fruits ofresurrection.

SPEAKER_03 (01:00:33):
Isn't it amazing how something as devastating and
heartbreaking as Elon's storynot only continues to give your
family hope, but it's been asignal of hope for the people
that you share it with andsharing his journey.
Yeah.
And um just the ability.

(01:00:53):
I think sometimes I can forget.
I a couple of months ago I wasreading, I can't remember where
in scripture, but talking abouthow miracles happen in order for
people to have faith.
Like that's why God doesmiracles.
And I can't remember where whereit said that.
But and then I've kind of beennoticing since then, like pr
when pre when God answersprayers and people share about

(01:01:14):
it, or when people share, likewhen y'all share about things
that Elon happened happeningwith Elon on Facebook and
things, and you know, believersbeing able to come together and
pray is a beautiful thing, andto celebrate those together and
the increase of faith that canhappen every time that that
happens are like these littlebreadcrumbs of heaven.

(01:01:35):
Yes, here that we'll get toexperience without the heartache
of it one day in the next life.
Yeah.
Um, and so I just love how youand Kesha both share so openly
about your stories and yourstruggles, but not as a way like

(01:01:57):
not as a way of woe is us, butas a way of, and this is how God
is still good.
Yeah.

unknown (01:02:02):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (01:02:03):
I think that takes a special person and a special
mindset.
Thank you.
Corey, this was amazing.
It finally happened.
It finally happened.
Thank you.
Absolutely.
And yes, I I'm eager for peopleto hear it and hopefully like me
be able to walk away with ah, Iknow I have more either I have

(01:02:24):
now more confidence about what Ibelieve, or hmm, I'd never heard
it that way before.
Sure.
Never, never thought much aboutthis Christianity thing.
But maybe I'll dive in and leanin a bit more, which both are
wins.

SPEAKER_00 (01:02:37):
Both are wins.
Well, thank you for theopportunity.
This has been great.
Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 (01:02:40):
I love being able to have a reason for my faith.
And for so much of my life, Ialways thought about that being
the story about how Jesus haschanged my life.
And that is true.
But today, what we discussed,this is the logical reason for
our faith.
And so if you are a Christian, Ihope that you gained evidence

(01:03:02):
and gained logic for how you cantalk about your trust in the
Bible and in Jesus and in whyyou believe what you believe.
If you're not and you werelistening to this just to learn,
I'm so excited that you werehere.
I encourage you to reach out,ask questions, leave a comment
below if you have any questions.
I would love to answer them.

(01:03:23):
But of course, I encourage youto continue going down your
journey.
If you want to know more aboutthe Bible, there's a group you
can follow on YouTube called theBible Project, and they break
down what the Bible says, whatthings mean in a way that's
incredibly easy to understand.
I would encourage you to startthere.
And if there's a friend thatmaybe you want to share this

(01:03:44):
with who has been strugglingwith their faith, I think this
would be a great thing for youto share as well.
Until next week, remember,especially because of what we
can believe in in trusting thatthe Bible is true, that there is
always hope.
And I also want you to staystrong and especially strong in

(01:04:07):
your faith.

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