March 3, 2026 • 59 mins
Today we are tackling something that we all have to deal with, but very few of us actually know how to do well: feedback.
In this episode, I am honored to be joined by leadership coach, speaker, and author Dr. J.R. Briggs. We are diving deep into the art of giving and receiving feedback, figuring out which of the two is actually more important (spoiler alert: it’s receiving!), and uncovering why feedback often feels so personal and scary.
J.R. shares an incredible story about trapeze school that perfectly illustrates why we need outside perspectives, and we talk about the practical things you can start doing today to completely change how you handle criticism and praise. We discuss how creating healthy feedback loops is the ultimate key to emotional intelligence and growth.
I walked away from this conversation with three specific things I am immediately applying to my day-to-day life, and I know you will too.
Take the free PIES assessment to see your inputs, outputs, and where your biggest area for growth is: https://kimberlybeamholmes.com/pies-assessment
In this episode, we cover:
Why receiving feedback is a more vital skill than giving it
The trapeze analogy: why we desperately need outside perspectives
Practical steps for receiving tough feedback without getting defensive (and the only two words you really need to say)
Why you must ask for permission before giving someone else feedback
How to calm your "reptilian brain" when you feel angry or triggered
The danger of overdrawing your "trust bank account" in relationships
Two powerful, vulnerable questions you can ask your trusted circle right now to uncover your blind spots
This is The Way You Show Up — a podcast and YouTube series all about the science of attraction and influence, and how focusing on these four pillars changes the way you show up at work, at home, in your marriage, in your parenting, and beyond.
New episodes every week. Subscribe so you don't miss one!
📖 J.R.'s Latest Book: https://bit.ly/4l2cJjI
Dr. J.R. Briggs lives with a clear and focused calling: to grow fruit on other people’s trees.
His work seeks to bridge the gap between spiritual formation and actionable leadership practices, aiming to help faith leaders and their organizations grow both in their faith and their impact on their communities.
I'm Dr. Kimberly Beam Holmes. After a decade transforming marriages at Marriage Helper, I've realized that the greatest tragedy isn't a failed relationship; it's the person who stays stuck and never experiences the fullness of all God intended.
The Way You Show Up is for the high-achiever who is tired of "fine."
We're dismantling the average life to build an exceptional one—using the science of the PIES: Physical, Intellectual, Emotional, and Spiritual health.
If you want to save your marriage, go to Marriage Helper. If you want to master yourself and lead your legacy, stay here.
New episodes every Tuesday.
Don't just exist. Show up.
🔗 Website: https://kimberlybeamholmes.com
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_02 (01:28):
Today we're talking about giving and receiving
feedback, and we're gonna figureout which of these two is more
important.
And more than anything, we'regoing to be talking about
practical things that you canstart doing today to make a
difference at how well youreceive feedback and how well
you give feedback to others.
I don't know about you, but thiswas something that is
(01:50):
immediately and directlyapplicable to me, and I believe
it's going to be applicable toyou too.
I walked away from today'sconversation with three things
that I cannot wait to go backinto my normal day-to-day life
and do because I believe it'sgoing to make a difference and
make my relationships better.
Today I am honored to be talkingto Dr.
J.R.
Briggs.
(02:10):
He is a leadership coach, he isa speaker, he is an author, he
has written several books,including his most recent one,
The Art of Asking Questions,just came out in October.
And I highly recommend that yougo and check it out because I
know for me, asking betterquestions gets to the heart of
so many disagreements, so manyopportunities, so many things in
(02:31):
life, so much better.
In fact, I've even heard it saidbefore that the result of an
answer that you get, or the typeof answer that you get really
all depends on the type ofquestion you ask.
Better questions equal betterunderstanding, better results,
better future.
Highly recommend that you go getit.
And again, we don't even talkabout this book.
(02:51):
We are on this podcast, but Iknow that you are going to love
JR as much as I truly andthoroughly enjoyed speaking with
JR.
I learned so much.
You will too.
Let's dive in to today'sconversation.
JR, as we start, I was thinking,what is the best feedback that
(03:12):
you have ever gotten fromsomeone?
Do you remember?
SPEAKER_00 (03:16):
When you say best, do you mean like uh most painful
but most significant?
SPEAKER_03 (03:21):
Or what's the worst feedback you've ever gotten?
SPEAKER_01 (03:27):
Well, I will tell you a story.
I don't know if it's the best,but it gives me the best example
of why feedback is so important.
And you may chuckle at this, butmy whole life, I've always
wanted to go to trapeze school.
SPEAKER_03 (03:43):
What?
SPEAKER_01 (03:44):
Yeah.
And and um, yeah, I I like Iride the unicycle and I can
juggle and bounce things on mychin.
And anyway, my wife thinks I didchose the wrong career by not
going into the circus.
But I've always wanted to go totrapeze school.
And so I thought that would be alot of fun.
And but where do you go totrapeze school, right?
Well, a few years ago, myparents who lived in Phoenix was
(04:06):
about four hours away from LasVegas.
Um, this was several years ago.
Our kids were little and theysaid, we'll take the kids, just
take the car and just go toVegas for a couple of days.
Well, we don't party and wedon't go to shows.
And so we're like, we don'tgamble.
Like, what are we gonna do inVegas?
And I started Googling aroundand I saw Trapeze Las Vegas, and
I'm like, that would be a blast.
(04:26):
Let's do it.
And I asked my wife, she's like,You'll do it with me.
I was like, Yeah, really?
She's like, No, no, no, I'm notgonna be up there.
I'll go with you and record fromthe ground.
Um, and so I had Chris, who wasthe Cirque de Soleil trapeze
artist at night at the MGM.
He taught this class during theday.
(04:47):
And it was awesome.
Well, I was slowly getting it.
I mean, it's heights don't scareme, and I can kind of hold my
body weight up on a bar, but um,I just wasn't getting it, it was
just too much to think about.
What I didn't know is when youland on the net nice and safe,
and you have harnesses, you rolloff the net, and there's another
guy there with like a 60-inchflat screen TV.
(05:09):
And I didn't realize there's acamera up above and it watches
your every move.
And so he's right there.
He had rewound it, he has hisremote, and he's slowing it down
frame by frame, pausing it,going, hey, this is good.
You need to arch your back more.
Oh, remember when you get tothis spot, you have to open your
legs up, like extend your legsto let go of the bar behind you.
And I remember thinking, this isawesome.
(05:32):
Not only being up there, butbeing down here and having this
like guy with a remote and goingback.
And I was like, oh, now I seeit.
I say all that to say that's thepower of feedback, is as if
somebody has a clicker in theirhand and a big 60-inch flat
screen TV rewinding it saying,Hey, just so you know, I know
(05:55):
you experienced it yourself, butfrom another angle, and we slow
it down.
This is what is going on in yourlife.
And so is it the best?
No, is it the most fun feedback?
Probably, but it was the examplefor me that said, this is what
feedback can do in every area ofyour life.
And Ollie was helping me.
(06:15):
And by the way, by the end ofthe time, I was able to nail the
trick.
I don't think I would be able tonail the trick had the guy on
the ground not been giving methose diagrams every time I
tried an attempt.
So, anyway, probably not whatyou're looking for, but that to
me is like the funnest.
SPEAKER_02 (06:34):
That is a super fun one.
And I believe, JR, that it thatit paints a really great picture
too, because you on that tightrope, you can't see what other
people see.
And those are the things thatfor you to actually do what you
need to do is going to make thedifference, right?
And so, gosh, thinking about melike recording myself in
(06:56):
different situations in my life,uh, not on, you know, not on a
trapeze, but but even in somelike an argument that I have
with my husband or a meetingthat I'm in with my team,
there's some like, oh, how wouldI see myself?
And how would that come across?
Uh and and that's what we get,right?
(07:17):
We can't always play the cardplay the playback, but we can
hear it from other people.
So, why is it so difficult, youthink, for us to hear feedback
from other people?
SPEAKER_01 (07:30):
Yeah.
Several things.
The first of all, it's it'sdifficult because it's so
personal.
I mean, let me just acknowledgethat giving and receiving
feedback is hard because it'sscary and it's awkward.
And maybe some of yourlisteners, like you and I, have
probably been hurt or shamedthrough the process of giving or
receiving feedback.
And so because it feels sopersonal, even under the best
(07:53):
circumstances when feedback'sgiven to us, it still feels like
you hate me.
You know, it's like a personalattack.
That's that's the the first one.
The other thing is we just ithasn't been modeled well, and so
it's really hard to actually dosomething if it hasn't been
modeled well for us.
And we also, sadly, we we have alittle bit of uh of bias of
(08:16):
thinking, well, because it's mylife, I do this really well
already, or it's not that bad,or they're probably not um
giving me enough credit.
You know, do they know how hardI worked on this?
And so because of that, it's wefeel underappreciated and
totally exposed.
And because it's not modeledwell, then we just either do it
poorly or we just don't share itwith others, or we share it with
(08:41):
others inappropriately, butbehind their back.
And so that's where feedback canbe really, really hard.
SPEAKER_02 (08:50):
What do you think is more important or a more
important skill set to develop?
Giving feedback well orreceiving feedback well?
SPEAKER_01 (09:00):
It's a fantastic question.
Most certainly healthyrelationships require both.
But I do believe that receivingfeedback is more important,
followed close by a close secondof giving feedback.
What do I mean?
Proverbs.
You know, wisdom welcomescorrection.
Fools resist it.
I mean, it's just over and overand over again in the Proverbs.
(09:23):
So I mean, I'm just gonna acouple here in front of me.
You know, Proverbs 15, 31 and32.
Whoever heeds life-givingcorrection will be at home among
the wise.
Those who disregard disciplinedespise themselves, but the one
who heeds correction gainsunderstanding.
I mean, it's just a mark overand over again of that.
How about this line, Proverbs12, 1, always sticks out to me.
(09:43):
Whoever loves discipline lovesknowledge.
So discipline could be, it is aform of feedback.
But whoever hates correction isstupid.
It's like, tell us what youreally think, you know?
So if we hate correction, if wedon't receive feedback, the
scriptures say we're stupid.
And so that's uh that's why Ireally believe if we can have
(10:07):
the humility to receive feedbackwell, then I think we will also
earn the trust and the right tobe able to give feedback in
that.
If we start with giving feedbackbut can't receive it well, um,
that doesn't bode well for uhhow we interact with other human
relationships.
SPEAKER_02 (10:25):
You know, I I love that you brought up Proverbs.
I started reading Proverbs inJanuary, so just a chapter a
day.
And yeah, or a couple days ago,I said to my husband, I said, So
basically, and I've you knowI've read Proverbs before.
I was like, basically, it says,Don't be stupid, keep your mouth
shut, and don't lend money topeople you don't know.
SPEAKER_01 (10:45):
Like it was Yes, yes, absolutely.
I love that you brought that outbecause the in the Proverbs
there are several there areseveral themes.
Um, the difference betweenwisdom and foolishness is how we
use our tongue, how we use ourtime, how we use our money, how
we use our genitals, and how werespond to feedback.
SPEAKER_02 (11:08):
Oh my gosh, can you repeat all those?
SPEAKER_01 (11:09):
Okay, between the difference between wisdom and
foolishness, yes, is how we useour tongue, uh-huh, how we use
our time, how we use our money,how we use our genitals, and how
we receive feedback.
SPEAKER_02 (11:26):
That is fascinating.
I have never heard that before,and yes, it makes total sense.
And it is, it's all aboutdiscernment and prudence and how
to like seeking wisdom and goingafter wisdom.
Um, and so in in that, let's getreal practical.
So you said to receive feedbackwell, it allows us to earn the
(11:47):
trust from someone else to inthe future give them feedback.
So, what are some things that wecan do to be good feedback
receivers?
SPEAKER_01 (11:56):
Yes, yes.
So, one of them is to ask betterand more specific and more
thoughtful questions out ofhumility.
Um, sometimes we ask reallygeneric questions like, so what
do you think?
But instead, it's to be morespecific to say, you know what,
(12:16):
I realize I've been sarcasticthe last several months, uh, and
I want to get better at that.
Do you feel like I'm bringingsarcasm into our conversations?
Or if you're a presenter, hey,you know, rather than say, How
did I do if I am a speaker orpreacher or presenter, but
instead to say, you know, I'vereally been trying to work on
the my introduction, the firstfive minutes.
(12:38):
Or I've been saying a lot offiller words of um and yeah, and
uh, did you sense that that waspresent?
And how can I get better atthat?
So I think that you can ask morespecific questions, number one.
Um, Adam Grant talks abouthaving a challenge network.
And I think we all need achallenge network.
These are people that love us,know us, want what's best for
(12:59):
us, but they're completelytruthful with us when we need to
get better.
They push us to say, you know,that presentation you gave,
you've done better.
It fell flat, wasn't engagement.
I think you can do better nexttime, rather than like, oh,
everything was great.
Um, I think the other thing,too, we can uh we can do is
prime the pump.
What do I mean by that?
Like, if I get done with aconversation and I'll say, you
(13:22):
know, honey, I I want to getbetter of not being so
defensive.
But I want to start by saying, Ididn't, I didn't feel like I did
a great job.
I was defensive.
So if I own it first, then it'seasier for them to say, yeah, I
think you were a little bitdefensive.
Or if I'm leading a team meetingand I say, you know what, I feel
like I talked a lot more than Ishould have in that team
(13:45):
meeting.
But I'm curious, what what doyou think?
Was that so I'm not trying to beuh I'm not trying to knock
myself or um be self-effeffacing, but um, but I kind of
am because I'm trying to givethem an in for them to say,
yeah, yeah, I kind of felt thattoo.
Um, it is so hard, Kimberly, butwhen you receive feedback to
(14:08):
make sure you don't react orbecome defensive to receive it
graciously and humbly, and evenon the insides, when you may
just be saying, like, um, youknow, I don't know, like, what?
I didn't do that.
Are you kidding me?
It's just to take a breath.
And I've learned that the onlytwo words that I really need to
(14:30):
say is only two.
Thank you.
Thank you.
It doesn't mean that I alwaysagree with them.
It doesn't mean they're alwaysright.
It means that I'm thanking themfor taking the time to share it
with me.
And I'm rather they share itcourageous and courageously with
me to my face than to gossipabout me behind my back or to
(14:51):
keep it buried.
So thank you for having thecourage.
Thank you for sharing.
I feel honored that you broughtit to me.
It doesn't acknowledgeeverything you said was just
right.
What I'm doing is then coming,if going back to it and saying,
okay, Lord, is this true?
Or to other people.
This was feedback I got.
(15:12):
Do you agree or disagree withthis?
Or I could journal and reflectabout it and go, you know what?
Yeah, rewinding the tape.
I could have, I could have doneit better.
The other thing I instructpeople to do is once you get
that feedback, is to write itdown and write it down fairly
quickly after you receive it.
Why?
Because we get defensive and thealarm goes off and a lot of
(15:33):
things happen in a day.
If you write it down shortlyafter, we won't exaggerate what
people say.
You know, do they say I alwaysam sarcastic or am I sarcastic
in certain conversations?
I can quickly extrapolate tomake them out to be the bad, the
bad person.
So write it down as specificallyas I can remember it.
(15:57):
And sometimes I'll circle backand say, I just want to make
sure I caught it.
Is this what you said?
Is this the essence of thefeedback you were giving me?
I just want to make sure I getit right.
And then to work on it and say,not 15 things, but one thing.
They may have offered 15, butcan I do one thing?
(16:17):
And then from that one thing towork on it every day, even if
small, for 30 days, and to justsay, okay, I'm gonna try to
eliminate sarcasm every day fora whole month.
Can I train myself that way?
And then to circle back aroundlater and say, Hey, I've been
trying to work on what you saidto me about my sarcasm.
(16:40):
Do you sense I'm improving inthat?
And if so, how?
But be honest with me.
If not, please tell me becausethen it's gonna show me I still
have some more work to do.
Man, that it's a lot of innerwork you got to do to ask that.
So I'm not saying this is easy,especially in the moment.
And feedback is way better toreceive when I'm expecting it or
(17:00):
when I'm initiating it.
It's way harder to receive itwhen I didn't know it was
coming, and it's much harsher ofcontent and harsher of tone and
presentation than maybe I wasready for.
So I'm speaking as someone stillpicking up the breadcrumbs along
the trail myself.
I'm learning alongside of uh uhof you and your listeners here
(17:24):
too.
SPEAKER_02 (17:25):
I mean, so much of what you have said with uh, you
know, don't be defensive, primethe pump, try and own it first,
intentionally seek it out.
Even if you don't agree with it,write it down, thank them.
I mean, all of this does comeback to really I think, and tell
(17:46):
me what, tell me if you thinkdifferently, this idea of
there's a baseline of humilityunderneath it.
And so maybe the next questionshould be because I wrote down a
lot of questions around severaldifferent aspects you you wrote,
such as, you know, uh, well,what's the line between asking
for too much feedback?
Like, is there a time whereyou're just trying to ask for it
(18:08):
in order to hear good thingsabout yourself?
Or, you know, what about if it'sliterally or actually coming
from someone that you don'tagree or that you don't have a
relationship with, or they'retotally off base.
But maybe I maybe we shouldstart with just how do we become
more humble so that we canreceive feedback better and
ultimately give and just have adifferent hand posture with it,
(18:30):
right?
Like sometimes I think likethis, right?
Like I'm gripping my hands oryou know, not what what am I
doing?
Clenching my hands into a fistwhen I get feedback and it's
like, here's all the reasons Iwant to fight you, or here's the
things I don't want to give upabout, me about what you're
saying, here's all the reasonsyou're wrong, as opposed to this
very open-handed position oflike, hey, if you have something
(18:50):
that can help me be better, helpme be a better steward, like I
want to hear it.
And it's just a much moreopen-handed posture that's hard
to get to sometimes.
Yes.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (19:04):
Yes, yes.
I've had to train my thinkingvery intentionally in this area.
There are other areas I need todo better at of training, but
I've worked very hard and I feellike I've there's been a long
way to go still.
But some of those things I sayto myself are some like mantras.
One of them is a quote from KenBlanchard where he said,
(19:24):
Feedback is the breakfast ofchampions.
I love that line.
I say that line all the time.
And I go, JR, feedback is thebreakfast of champions.
It's the only way I'm gonnagrow.
So to me, that's an importantpiece to remember.
The other one is to remember,even just theologically, like, I
am not perfect.
As an Enneagram one, I want tobe perfect, but I can't be.
(19:47):
And so, even just acknowledgingtheologically, like there's just
I I no matter how hard I try, Ican't be perfect, which means
there will always be room forimprovement in me.
Um, another mantra that I'vesaid to my to my boys when I
mess up and and yell at them orI'm impatient or whatever, I'm
in an irritable, in a bad mood,especially when they were
(20:08):
younger, is I not as an excuse,I would repair quickly and say,
I shouldn't, dad shouldn't havedone that.
I shouldn't have snapped likethat.
I shouldn't have.
And one of the lines I say, andit's not to excuse my behavior,
but to help them understand, Isay, Dad will not be a perfect
dad, but I always will be alearning dad.
And so then I translate thatover to say, I'm not going to be
(20:31):
a perfect human or a perfectleader, but I will always be a
learning human and a learningleader.
That, to me, I will always makethat commitment.
So just also remembering, likeif I want to grow, I'm going to
have to crave feedback and yousee it as gifts, see them as
gifts and not as curses.
(20:52):
Because for my own growth anddevelopment, I don't know how
I'm going to grow without that.
That'll make me a betteremployee and boss and spouse and
parent and friend and humanbeing in so many areas.
If I realize it's not aboutperfection, it's about can I
grow 1% every day?
Can I just get better andbetter?
(21:13):
It is impossible to be aneffective leader if I do not
proactively and intentionallygive and receive feedback.
So it's some of these mantrasand things I have to say to
myself that actually prepares mefor realizing the feedback loops
are the only way I can grow.
Emotionally intelligent peopleare emotionally intelligent
(21:35):
because they have learned tocreate regular and frequent
feedback loops, whether theylike it or not, to learn how to
grow in those areas.
So I think that's back to theproverbs.
If we want to grow in wisdom andemotional intelligence, we're
going to have to receivefeedback better.
I don't think there's any wayaround it.
For thousands of years, that'sbeen the case in human nature,
(21:56):
and I don't think it's stoppinganytime soon.
SPEAKER_02 (21:59):
Do you think there's any such thing as getting too
much feedback?
Maybe probably in this instance,it would be you're requesting it
all the time.
Do you think there's do youthink that's a possibility?
SPEAKER_01 (22:13):
I do.
I think the most importantquestion we can ask to start
before we open our mouths to askourselves, what's my motive?
Is my motive that I reallygenuinely want to grow?
Or is my motive some sort ofsecret way of trying to um seek
out affirmation, you know, to tolook for uh pats on backs.
(22:37):
Um, you know, what is my motivehere?
I think um some people seek outaffirmation through feedback,
you know.
Um, how did I do?
Oh, thank you so much, you know,and then we're sort of fake
flattered.
On the other side, though, thereare some people what I'll call
feedback masochists, where theyjust they just feel like I'm
terrible and I I should justhear from everybody how terribly
(23:01):
I did, and and then what they dois they dissect it so much it
just sucks the life out ofwhatever they were working on.
And so there are times where wejust and I'm a like I said, I'm
a feedback junkie.
There are times we just need tolet it go and say, I gave it my
best and I'm gonna release it.
(23:22):
Um I I was fortunate enough herein my twenties to have met
Dallas Willard a few times.
And I remember talking with himand saying, Dallas, what do you
do when you just have given aterrible talk, a terrible
presentation, a terribleteaching, and you just want to
beat yourself up?
And he gave me this image Istill use.
He said, I walk off the platformand I just pretend I'm holding a
(23:45):
helium balloon.
And he said, I just gave my bestand then I just let it go.
Now he's evaluating that andprobably hearing from others of
how to get better, but he's alsosaying, I need to release
outcomes to God, and so Irelease the helium balloon.
Some people survey themselves todeath, right?
(24:08):
Where they sometimes formalsurveys, scale of one to ten,
how did I do?
And they sort of do somehand-wringing.
I think we have to know inwisdom when it's time to say,
I've got enough feedback.
Okay, let's let's move on.
Too much of it, I think we getin our own head, and it can
(24:28):
provide not humility, but deepinsecurity if we're not careful.
SPEAKER_02 (24:34):
Reminds me of something I've heard John
Maxwell say before about how hehad a mentor who said to him in
his earlier years, your speakingability is a gift.
It is not yours.
It is God's gift he gave to you.
Therefore, like don't let it goto your head was basically the
(24:56):
premise of it.
And so that's the image that'scoming to mind too.
The things that we ask forfeedback on.
Some of it is how we show up andlike maybe our character and and
things like that.
But a lot of the things are alsothe gifts that we have or the
gifts that God has given us thatwe that I know I want to make
sure is the best.
And when I can take that, and Idon't always do a great job at
(25:16):
this, let's be real.
But when I can take that andmake it separate from me because
it's not from me, it's not mine,like it's just a gift.
Then I think that mentally kindof makes it easier to ask for
and see feedback because it'sthis this thing.
It's not in me, it's likewonderful.
SPEAKER_01 (25:35):
Yes, and it's and it's also being rooted in what
is my identity.
Is my identity determined by howby how well I do something?
Or is my identity rooted in whoI am and to whom I belong?
And so there's a lot of insidethe house work that has to be
done, you know, to say, who amI?
(25:56):
Am I defined by the approvalratings of other people?
Or is my identity rooted inexactly who I am?
And then out of that, I can actor speak or write or interact
with my family or my friends.
And so, yeah, and let's behonest.
I mean, I there was one leaderwho said, You shall know the
(26:17):
true and truth, and it'll makeyou wince, and then it'll set
you free.
And there's a lot of truth tothat, right?
And so there's a lot of like,ouch, ooh.
And for me, Kimberly, thehardest feedback is the stuff
that when it's said to me, Iknow is absolutely true.
unknown (26:36):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (26:37):
Right?
It's not the stuff that's like,man, they're crackpots, they
don't know what they're talkingabout.
You know, it's the like, oh, younailed me, and you are exactly
right.
Ouch.
Thank you, but ouch.
To me, that's the hardestfeedback.
SPEAKER_02 (26:56):
Yeah.
The the I want to touch a littlebit more on the identity part
that you just mentioned.
I think the um, at least for me,you know, growing up in church,
that who am I?
For me, it's something I'veheard a lot, especially in my
faith, right?
It's it's I'm I am all of thesethings that God says I am.
(27:17):
I am a daughter of God, I amloved, I am chosen.
How would you explain thatthough, to the people listening
who maybe are not Christians andmaybe this is a new concept to
them?
SPEAKER_01 (27:29):
Yes, yeah, that's great.
Um, that is one of the beautifulthings about the Christian story
is realizing that if it is onour own effort, we're all in
trouble.
And that sounds pessimistic, butof going, no matter how hard I
(27:49):
try, I will always come upshort.
And that will add all thepressure in the world on me to
perform and to find my identityin uh again approval ratings,
money, success in my job, mylooks, my you know, bank
account, my promotion, my jobtitle.
And we know how exhausting thatactually is.
(28:11):
We've all felt it.
But to be able to know, as yousaid, like that we are we are
loved, that grace is availableto us not because of our
performance, but because simplywe are a beloved child of God.
And that is really hard tograsp, even for someone who I
would describe myself as aprofessional Christian paid to
(28:34):
love Jesus.
You know, I mean, I'm one ofthose like pastor Christian
leader types, and it's stillhard for me.
Grace is wonderful, but theworld does not operate by grace,
as Bono of U2 says, the worldoperates by karma, God operates
by grace.
No wonder it's so hard for us tounderstand what grace actually
(28:57):
is.
You know, karma says you do agood thing, you get rewarded.
You succeed in your role, you'reapplauded.
You don't do well in your job,you are shunned.
You do something wrong, you payfor it.
That's that's a hard place tobe.
And so it doesn't mean we don'ttry.
It doesn't make us lazy.
(29:18):
It means that we're freed upthen to live out of our identity
with the right motives.
As Dallas Willard said, that thegood news, the gospel, is not
against work, it's againstearning.
And that differentiation isreally important.
SPEAKER_02 (29:35):
Man, it it is really important.
It's also sometimes a veryblurry line, depending on how
someone's wired.
Are you have you ever heard?
I'm a geek, so I'm a researcher,I love research, and there's
this uh theoretical, there'sthis theory in psychology called
the contingencies of self-worth.
SPEAKER_01 (29:56):
Have you ever no, no, I'm curious, tell me.
SPEAKER_02 (30:00):
I think you'll love this.
So uh they're in a secularschool, I can't remember the
school, but the researcher wasuh Jennifer Crocker, and she
looked at, okay, what I want toresearch what are the
contingencies of people'sself-worth?
What are the nine differentareas that people are most
likely to place their self-worthin?
SPEAKER_01 (30:18):
Oh, fascinating.
SPEAKER_02 (30:20):
There were things like family support,
competition, appearance, virtue.
I'm not gonna remember all nineright now, but God's love was
one of them.
And what she found was that overtime, the people who put the
majority of their contingenciesof self-worth in God's love were
(30:40):
the ones that had the most likestable feelings of self-worth,
overall life satisfactionlevels.
And it was it was also kind ofup there with like family
support and virtue.
But these other things likecompetition and appearance and
the ones that were just so muchmore fleeting.
SPEAKER_01 (30:57):
Fascinating.
SPEAKER_02 (30:58):
Isn't it though?
I love when research just backswhat the Bible has already
pulled up.
SPEAKER_01 (31:05):
I love that, Kimberly.
Isn't it?
SPEAKER_02 (31:07):
I I just it makes me warm and aside.
SPEAKER_01 (31:10):
Yes.
Yes.
Um, oh, that's fantastic.
I want to actually look that upand dig into it myself.
That's fantastic.
SPEAKER_02 (31:15):
But yeah, I'll I'll also be sure to email you even
just like the original papersthat she that she wrote on.
SPEAKER_00 (31:21):
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (31:22):
Um, because I just I just find that so fascinating.
Okay, we've talked about givingreceiving feedback.
This is the most important thinguh for us to be able to do.
It requires humility, itrequires like asking questions
that we get clarity, not beingdefensive, going, not attacking
someone when they do it, justsimply saying thank you.
Let's transition now into whatif we what if we got something
(31:45):
on our mind and we have somefeedback to give?
What are the things that we cando to make sure that we try and
do this in the best waypossible?
SPEAKER_01 (31:55):
Yeah.
Well, I've had this is ahard-fought lesson that I've had
to learn that's taken severalyears.
I probably should have learnedit way sooner than I have,
Kimberly.
But, you know, the first thingis asking myself, does this
person want to receive it?
And is this the right time?
I mean, I know that sounds soelementary, but doing the right
(32:16):
thing at the wrong time canbecome the wrong thing.
And um, there's a great EdwinFriedman quote, and Friedman
talks about this, and it's justa couple sentences, if you don't
mind, I'd love to read itbecause it it's revolutionized
how I think about givingfeedback.
He said, the colossalmisunderstanding of our time is
the assumption that insight willwork with people who are
(32:39):
unmotivated to change.
Communication does not depend onsyntax or eloquence or rhetoric
or articulation, but on theemotional context in which the
message is being heard.
And then this is the line thatslays me every time.
People can only hear you whenthey are moving toward you.
And they are not likely to whenyour words are pursuing them.
(33:03):
Even the choicest words losetheir power when they are used
to overpower.
Attitudes are the real figure ofspeech.
And it is that line that I readseveral years ago.
People can only hear you whenyou're moving toward them.
And it could be physically, butalso as we, you know,
emotionally, relationally,socially.
I can give feedback until I'mblue in the face.
(33:24):
And it could be reallybrilliant.
But if they aren't moving towardme, I'm probably wasting my time
and maybe theirs too.
And I think there have beentimes I've metaphorically wanted
to bang my head against the wallof going, I'm trying to help
you.
Why won't you let me help you?
I want to give you feedback.
But they're so resistant.
And so that's hard.
And people say, Oh, do we nevergive our kids feedback?
(33:45):
I'm like, no, that's that'sdifferent.
That's instruction, that'sguidance as a parent.
But feedback, yeah, it's really,really hard.
And so that's why I have to ask,does this person want feedback?
There are a few exceptions.
I do need to tell someone thatthey need feedback if they may
not even want to hear it.
(34:06):
But true change happens whenpeople are moving toward us,
which is why trust is important.
But also what is their level ofintrinsic motivation here?
And is this the right time?
There are times I want to hearfrom other people, um, friends,
family, but I'm just not in theright headspace.
(34:27):
And I have to say, you knowwhat?
Yeah.
I I hope my friends and familygive me feedback, but not right
now.
I'm pretty tender.
I'm pretty raw, I'm prettyvulnerable at the moment.
Tomorrow or next week, I'm gonnaprobably be in a better
headspace to receive it.
So I think that's that's thefirst one.
You know, we were taught as akid about the sandwich approach,
(34:49):
right?
Affirmation, feedback,affirmation.
I think we that that can be ahelpful principle, but it we
have to be careful that itdoesn't come across so robotic
that people are like, oh,they're just saying that nice
thing because uh-oh, here comesthe hard part.
So we want to be really carefulabout that.
But to give it specifically,frequently, and in small doses
(35:12):
and not all at once.
We can overwhelm people.
They walk off the stage and say,Do you have any feedback for me?
Yeah, I've got 15 things thatyou didn't do well.
Whoa.
How about you just pick one ortwo?
Um, I find too that people areless defensive when you ask for
permission.
Not only is it respectful, butit actually helps give them a
(35:34):
few more seconds to preparethemselves that something is
coming and to put their guarddown.
So it could sound something likethis.
You know, I have some feedbackthat I believe could help you
moving forward.
If you'd ever like to know that,just let me know and I'd be glad
to share it.
So I'm not even sharing it.
I'm saying I have feedback, butyou're in the driver's seat.
(35:55):
You tell me if you want it.
So that's the first one, or alittle bit more direct.
Can I provide you some feedbackin this moment?
I think that would be helpful.
It's a bit rhetorical, but it'sstill invitational.
Very rarely will people say, no,don't give me feedback.
But I'm doing it as a polite wayof, hey, I really think this
could be helpful.
Or maybe a little bit lessdirect.
(36:17):
You know, I'm curious, um, howwould you know if you're doing a
good job by leading your staffmeetings?
Like, I don't know.
Or how do you know if you'recommunicating well in your
marriage or with your kids?
I don't know.
It's like, well, if you'd everwant a little bit of feedback,
(36:39):
I'd be glad to provide a gentlemirror to hold that up if that
would be helpful.
So I think that's that's that'shelpful, especially if you are a
supervisor or in some sort ofauthority role, to sprinkle it
in regularly rather than dump itall at once.
Why do we get so scared to deathof an annual review at work?
(37:00):
It's because we haven't gottenfeedback for 364 days, and then
all of a sudden we're gonna getthis formal dump professionally,
and so we don't know if we'regonna get promoted or fired.
Well, as supervisors, it's goodto just sprinkle in positive and
negative regularly rather thanone dump truck backed up and
then just dumped all over ourdesk.
(37:22):
Um, and then again, how matters,our tone, our body language, our
volume, our pace.
And so, yeah, how matters, howwe do things really matters.
So there are a few more I couldshare, but I'll stop there.
But those are those are a fewways that I've had to learn,
sometimes the very hard way, uh,of my intent was good, but I
(37:45):
just inflicted a whole lot ofdamage or awkwardness onto other
people.
Um, and so I thought it washelping, but I made it worse.
SPEAKER_02 (37:52):
I love what you said about um, well, two things.
I think the even just the askingfor permission, and it made a
ton of sense when I heard yousay it.
It even if you're about to giveit, right?
Like you're in a situation whereyou're not really asking if you,
if they ever want to hear itcome back, but it allowing their
brain to just be like, okay, Iunderstand now what's kind of
(38:14):
just those brief, because I seeit, right?
Like I told I just I got it assoon as you said it.
Um, and the pacing, I know Ihave noticed when when I'm like
in the middle of a conversationand it's not going well, and I
want to give feedback, I tend tospeed up or I tend to like feel
(38:35):
it internally.
And I'm like, I you need tounderstand something right now,
right?
And so even just being able toreset myself and maybe not say
the feedback the most in some ofthose conversations, but even
just calm myself down and slowmy tone so that they don't get
as worked up, and it also likekeeps me from getting too worked
(38:57):
up.
SPEAKER_01 (38:58):
Absolutely, it works both ways, right?
And so if we come in and say,Well, you did this and then
this, and then after that, thishappened, and then I mean, how
could someone not growdefensive?
But if you say, I just want toshare a couple things, there are
three, actually, there are threethings I want to share.
And so here's the first one, andthen maybe after the first one I
could say, let me just pausethere.
Do you have any thoughts orbefore I go to number two?
(39:20):
Do you have any thoughts orreflections on that first one?
Can I clarify anything for you?
Or just let it breathe a littlebit, just let you take it in.
But anyway, I just want to andthey're like, no, that's fine.
What's number two?
Or yeah, could you clarify whatyou mean?
Or can you give me an example?
Yeah.
Well, like last week thishappened.
It's like, okay, all right.
(39:41):
Can I share the second one now?
I mean, you see how the pacingof that it just allows it to
breathe a little bit wherepeople can receive it best.
SPEAKER_02 (39:48):
100%.
So I I would like to get yourfeedback on feedback I have been
given about feedback I give.
SPEAKER_01 (39:57):
Oh, it's getting meta.
SPEAKER_00 (40:00):
It's been real meta.
SPEAKER_02 (40:02):
Uh I I have been told, and actually, the more I
think about it, I think I mayhave been told this in every
area of my life.
So I should probably take heedto it, that I can be very um,
I'm gonna say the word abrasive.
I don't, I don't think that'sthe word people have said to me,
(40:22):
but that's probably what theywant to say to me when they when
I give feedback.
Like I I have heard, I feel likeyou point out the bad more than
you point out the good.
And honestly, it's I don'tdisagree, uh, but I don't feel
that way about myself.
Like I feel like I'm typicallyexcited and optimistic and like
(40:44):
I love you all and you're doinga great job.
But for whatever reason, and itcan be my own, my own blind
spot, like I don't give positivefeedback enough.
So how or when I give it, it isnot received the same way as
when the more intentional, likenot the more negative feedback,
(41:06):
the ones that are more likecorrective.
So, how would you recommend forme to to shift that perspective
in literally?
Like I'm thinking, I think I'veheard this from one person in
every type of area of my life.
SPEAKER_01 (41:22):
Okay, yeah, yeah.
Well, first of all, good for youfor recognizing that pattern,
right?
It's hard, right?
It's making you wince, right?
You shall hear the truth, it'llmake you wince, and then you'll
be set free, right?
You're wincing.
That's true.
It's not fun, but at leastyou're not going, well, all my
friends are stupid, or theydon't understand.
So I just want to just say,Kimberly, I love the fact that
you just are willing to receivethat, even though it's made you
(41:44):
cringe.
You're going, Yep, this isimportant to receive, number
one.
Number two, uh, I think it'sreally important.
Um I always like to say, we livein a world that likes to catch
people doing things wrong.
Can I be the kind of leader thattrains myself to catch people
doing things right?
SPEAKER_03 (42:02):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (42:02):
And so a question I have picked up, and I I never
want to ask it when it'sdisingenuous, is a bit of a
rhetorical question that's alsoaffirmation.
So it goes like this.
Um, how'd you get so good atasking questions, Kimberly?
How'd you get so good at helpingmarriages thrive?
(42:24):
I mean, they can answer it, butI'm also affirming you that's
what you do really well.
They may want to answer it, andthat's great.
Or how'd you get so good atkicking a soccer ball?
How'd you get so good at yourballet dancing?
Like, that's amazing.
Think of what that would do in amarriage, think of what that
would do with our chick, withour kids, with our coworkers,
(42:47):
with our friends, our neighbors.
How'd you get so good at cuttingyour lawn?
I mean, it could be as trivialas that.
Um, and so that to me iscatching people things, doing
things right.
The second thing is I alwaysthink about, especially with
parenting, um, bank accounts.
And can I make deposits intotheir bank account?
(43:07):
And so if I affirm my sons withthis, and it could be a big
thing or a little comment hereor there, but a$20 deposit, a
$100 deposit, a$7 deposit.
And over time, then when I haveto withdraw and I have to make a
big withdrawal of severalhundred dollars of given some
hard feedback, I don't overdraw.
(43:27):
If I have not put anything inthe trust bank account and I
only have 20 bucks, but I've gotto make a$300 withdrawal,
they're like, who do you thinkyou are?
Like, they don't, they don'tknow me.
They don't care about me.
And so for me, I'm alwaysthinking, how can I invest in
the trust account?
And that's a question and ametaphor that I'm thinking about
regularly with the people aroundme.
(43:48):
And so if I affirm them, itcould be seven bucks.
Or if I affirm them in front ofthe whole company at a company
event with 300 people from themicrophone, from the from the
podium, man, that could be a$200emotional investment in their
account.
So then when I have to pull themaside and say, you know what,
you do this really well, as Imentioned, but we got to talk
(44:08):
about this issue here.
And I wish we didn't have to,but for your own growth and
development, we're gonna have totalk about it.
And it may make usuncomfortable, but we got to
talk about it.
As long as I don't overdraw,those overdraw fees in
leadership are really painful.
And so if there's not enoughtrust in the bank account, we're
(44:31):
we're gonna we're gonna havedifficulty in how that feedback
is received when we give it.
SPEAKER_02 (44:39):
How do you approach it when you really are riled up?
Like you are hot, you are angry.
Do you give it?
Do you wait?
How do you calm yourself down sothat you aren't just speaking
out of your complete, what isit, the reptilian brain that's
like all-yeah, the reptilianbrain.
SPEAKER_01 (45:01):
Yeah.
Yeah.
What do you do?
It's a great question, Kimberly.
I have no idea because that'snever happened to me.
I never struggle.
No, I'm totally kidding.
No, I mean, I struggle with thisjust like the rest of us.
Um, I mentioned Dallas Willarduh earlier.
Uh another gift he gave me is Ihad lunch with him one time and
(45:24):
I said, What do you do whenpeople are maligning you?
I mean, they're just Trashingyou.
You know, like you know it's nottrue.
They're misunderstanding you,they're putting words in your
mouth, they're assigning motivesyou don't have.
And he, I remember he justlooked across the table, he
reached across, put his hand onkind of on my forearm, and he
said, JR, never defend yourself.
(45:47):
Only offer to explain yourself.
He said, Never react, onlyrespond.
And Kimberly, I'm telling you, Ithink about that probably three
times a month.
And he said that probably 15, 20years ago.
Because when I feel that ragemonster, you know, coming up, I
(46:08):
didn't say that.
That's not me.
What are you talking about?
Um, that's not fair.
I just hear Dallas slowly in myhead saying, JR, don't react,
only respond, don't defendyourself.
And I love this phrase.
He said, only offer to explainyourself.
He didn't say explain yourself.
He didn't say you listen to meand I'm gonna explain myself.
(46:29):
You offer, which means you ask aquestion, say, you know what, I
appreciate you sharing.
I feel like there's someadditional context that may be
helpful.
Would it be okay if I explainedsome of the perspective or the
context that went into thatdecision I made or why I said
that or what I was referring to?
And sometimes people say no.
(46:50):
And I say, you know what?
Okay, then I really think thisconversation probably needs to
come to a close for both of us.
No problem.
But anyway, so that's that's thethe Dallas Willard effect.
Uh, is it 100% foolproof?
No.
I still have you know thought ofthat and still reacted and still
(47:10):
said, You listen to me, and Iyou, you know, how can you?
But I'll tell you, Kimberly, itsaved me tremendously from
saying things that I that Iwould regret or acting upon
things I would be ashamed of.
Um so what do we do if we'reriled up?
I have loved calling timeouts tosay, you know what?
(47:31):
I just need about five minutes.
Can I just go to the restroom,just gather myself?
Can I take a walk around theblock?
Can you give me five minutes inthe bedroom and then I'll just
come out?
I'll be in a better place.
Or can we talk about thistomorrow?
I'm not trying to kick the candown the field here or down the
(47:51):
road here, but what I am tryingto do is realize like, I'm
exhausted, I've had a verystressful day at work, um, I'm
not in a good headspace.
I think with some good sleeptomorrow morning, I would love
to be able to chat with youabout this.
And and and sometimes I havepeople are like, no, I really
want to talk about it now.
So, you know what?
We can.
I'm a little worried, I'm goingto say something I regret.
(48:14):
And I'm afraid that I may saysomething that might hurt you.
I don't want to do that.
And they say, Well, I stillthink we should talk about it.
Fine.
Can we do it in 30 minutes?
Or can you just give me a fewminutes to write out my thoughts
on a piece of paper and thenmaybe I can read those.
I'll be a little more measuredand a little more, a little less
(48:35):
reptilian brain.
So I don't know.
Maybe maybe this is helpful.
These are things I've had to usebecause I'm not great at it.
So I have to employ some ofthese practices.
SPEAKER_02 (48:46):
Yeah, I I love them.
I feel like they're verypractical and also give
permission.
I I think we think, or at leastI do, I have to do it now.
I have to like, you know, figureeverything out or fix it in the
moment or get it all tied up ina bow so that we can move on to
the next thing and not let itlet it linger.
(49:07):
So I think it gives permissionto say it's okay for there to be
time and space and to come back,or to even say, because I think
maybe even for me, like, oh, butI might look weak, right?
If I say, you know what, I needI need some time, but it it's
better for the outcome of therelationship.
SPEAKER_01 (49:23):
Sure.
SPEAKER_02 (49:24):
Right?
Ego aside, pride aside, humilityrising.
SPEAKER_01 (49:28):
Yep, yeah, right.
Sure.
SPEAKER_02 (49:31):
To be able to do that.
SPEAKER_01 (49:32):
Yeah.
And sometimes, Kimberly, I haveto say things like, like, I
mean, I won't go into all thedetails, but an acquaintance
that I know was totallyblindsided, was yelled at in a
public restaurant.
This is last week, that I'mstill like in the real moment,
like in the real time here, I'mstill a little rattled by.
(49:54):
And I was so caught off guard.
I I normally am not tongue-tied,but I was just like, I I I I
mean, I was so caught off guard.
And she, if she knew the fullstory and the full context, if
she had said, help meunderstand, I would be like, Let
me explain myself.
But I was so thrown, she hadtaken her little slice of
(50:18):
perspective and missed thecircumstance of the over the
last month that had occurred.
And I and I just would say, CanI share my?
I wasn't even prepared for that.
All I could muster out, whichI'm grateful I said this is
you've given me a lot to thinkabout, and I'll probably need to
ponder this for a bit and getback to you.
(50:40):
So only thing I could say, andlooking back, I thought, it's
probably handled fairly well.
Like, I don't always handle itwell, but of like, you've given
me a lot to think about.
I need to think about it, andlet me come back.
And after I reflect.
I don't know if it diffused thesituation.
I think it seemed like it did.
(51:02):
Um, and then I was able to comeback and then explain some
things, not in a restaurant,like across the table,
one-on-one.
And she wasn't like, Oh, I'm sosorry.
I didn't know, but by meexplaining it, she goes, Okay,
that gives me some additionalcontext.
What I wanted to say to her was,don't hesitate to ask.
Like, can you help meunderstand?
(51:24):
Dot, dot, dot.
Or from my perspective, I seethis.
Am I missing anything?
That's the feedback I would haveloved for her to ask, because we
would not have then had thatweird situation of uh, you know,
yelling in a restaurant beingyelled at.
So I'm still stinging from that.
(51:44):
Um, that may be a little bit toomuch vulnerability here on the
podcast, but I I feel like,yeah, this is even though I love
this and lead trainings on this,I'm still learning this in real
time too.
SPEAKER_02 (51:56):
I think it is it is life-giving to know that we're
never gonna get to this place.
There's not this, you know, pinultimate, we will arrive,
everything will be easier.
Human relationships are messyand it involves a lot of things.
I mean, one of one of the thingsI say often is I feel like some
of the biggest miracles Godperforms is restoration of
(52:19):
relationships because it takestwo people who have total free
will.
And then, like when that canhappen, it's like, man, what a
picture of of the gospel.
But it's hard.
So I appreciate the openness andrealness.
And it it kind of sounds likeover time, it's a muscle that we
(52:39):
can kind of work and at leastget better at the response, even
if even if the words coming outof our mouth in the moment don't
match the emotion we feel on theinside, if it can buy us time to
sift through that emotion sothat we don't end up doing or
saying something we regret.
That's kind of the gift of it.
SPEAKER_01 (53:01):
That's exactly right.
And I'm so glad you talked aboutit being a muscle, because what
happens when we don't usemuscles?
They atrophy.
SPEAKER_02 (53:07):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (53:07):
And when we use muscles even appropriately at
the gym, we wake up really sorethe next day.
That doesn't mean we did itwrong.
It means we did it right.
Because that's how our musclesgrow.
You have to have sore musclesbefore you experience growth in
your muscles, whether it'slifting weights or running a
marathon or whatever it mightbe, you should feel sore.
(53:30):
That means you're using yourmuscles correctly.
Um, and so yeah, this is amuscle I and even if we have to
pick up the two-pound dumbbells,that's fine.
We don't have to start with 50.
We'll get there.
But I think just giving peoplepermission to say, start small,
that's fine.
And you're sore, that's fine.
We'll work up as the musclegrows.
(53:51):
We don't just pick this upovernight.
I've been working on this for 20years, and I still have a long
way to go on this.
Um yeah, I'm glad you, I'm gladyou used the muscle metaphor
because it it resonates.
SPEAKER_02 (54:06):
JR, as we as we end, for those people who are
thinking, you know what, I wantto be a bit more proactive in
asking for feedback.
What is one question or onephrase or one thing that you
would recommend they they go andask trusted friends, family
members that they believe can behonest with them, but what is a
good question that they can useto ask for feedback today?
SPEAKER_01 (54:30):
If we're emotionally prepared, which sometimes,
again, it can be vulnerable.
I think we could ask uh aquestion like, can you just name
one area where you would like tosee improvement in my life?
It could be a skill, it could bea character issue, it could be
social, spiritual, relational,doesn't matter.
But what is not 15, what is onespecific area where you think it
(54:55):
would be good for me to haveimprovement in my own life?
Um, and I would just say, ifit's a trusted person, to do all
you can to make sure it's safeenough because they're gonna
think does he mean it?
SPEAKER_02 (55:09):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (55:10):
I mean, does he really mean it?
And so to say, I really wouldlove for you to give me the last
five percent of the truth.
Can you name one area in my lifewhere you would like to see
improvement?
Um, I'll throw in another one ifit's okay, because I love
questions, can really quit.
Is when I walk in the room, whatwalks in with me?
(55:31):
And I love that question becauseit's it could be joy,
excitement, energy, or it couldbe judgment, uh, a sour face,
irritability.
But when I walk in the room,what walks in with me can be a
good point of feedback.
SPEAKER_02 (55:50):
I love that one.
I love them both.
I will definitely use themappropriately in in the next
couple of weeks because I wantto know those things.
I definitely want to know thosethings.
And I think all of us do.
We are just scared of knowinghow to word it, who to approach,
how to take it.
But I fully, I mean, these thesethings that we have talked
(56:12):
about, and you know, I heard youtalk about this a couple of
months ago as well, which is whyI knew I had to talk to you
about this because it's sopractical and so applicable and
so just part of our daily livesthat can help us be better and
have better relationships andshow up better.
And so, I mean, for all of thosereasons and more, JR, I have
(56:34):
loved our conversation and Ithank you so much for your time.
It's been a gift and a joy.
Thank you so much.
SPEAKER_01 (56:42):
Well, thanks, Kimberly.
This has been great.
And I would welcome anyfeedback, even on or off air.
I would welcome that anytime.
But you're I'm so grateful forthis time.
Thanks for having me on.
SPEAKER_02 (56:52):
Okay, y'all.
I told y'all this was going tobe an amazing podcast.
I took so many notes.
And really, when I boil it downto the three key things that I
am taking away more thananything, the first one is that
feedback is a gift.
It's not someone just telling mehow I'm not good enough.
It's not a way to remind myselfthat I need to do more or be
(57:17):
different or whatever it mightbe.
It's a gift.
It's a gift to help me bebetter, to show up differently
and to be kinder or just abetter woman overall in all of
my relationships.
And so for me, I know I canstruggle with this, but I want
to continually remind myselfthat feedback is a gift.
(57:40):
It's an opportunity for growth.
And so we should treat it thatway and cherish it.
My second key takeaway fromtoday's conversation is asking
myself these two questionsbefore I give feedback.
Number one, does this personeven want to receive it right
now?
Because the right thing at thewrong time is still the wrong
(58:00):
thing.
And number two, give feedbackspecifically, frequently, in
small doses, not all at once.
And even that point of askingfor permission beforehand.
Hey, I've been seeing something,or I see a way that you can
grow, or I've been seeing a waythat we could have better
conversations and bettercommunication when we disagree
(58:22):
about something.
Would you mind if I shared thatwith you?
It allows the brain those coupleof seconds to prepare for it.
And people always tend toreceive things better when the
permission is asked for.
And then third of all, remindingmyself that it's okay for me to
simply say, thank you.
I need to process this.
Or, hey, can we come back tothis at a time when I am better
(58:45):
able to talk about it?
I'm just really drained rightnow.
Because trying to force aconversation when I'm in the
middle of being completely riledup, or the other person is in,
is in a riled up state,typically you can't fight
through that.
You're not going to get to agood outcome on the other side
of it.
(59:06):
So allowing those timeouts isokay.
There is permission to do that.
And then my bonus takeaway, andI'm going to do this, I
encourage you to do it as well,is finding a person in your
life, someone who can be honestwith you, maybe a couple of
people, and either asking thequestion, when I walk into a
room, what walks in with me?
(59:27):
Or, hey, if you would like tosee improvement in any area of
my life, what would you whatwould you recommend?
These are ways that we canalways continue to grow, show up
different and better in ourrelationships.
And ultimately, it helps us tobe more attractive, but also to
have even more influence.
Until next week, stay strong.
Today we're talking about giving and receiving
feedback, and we're gonna figureout which of these two is more
important.
And more than anything, we'regoing to be talking about
practical things that you canstart doing today to make a
difference at how well youreceive feedback and how well
you give feedback to others.
I don't know about you, but thiswas something that is
(01:50):
immediately and directlyapplicable to me, and I believe
it's going to be applicable toyou too.
I walked away from today'sconversation with three things
that I cannot wait to go backinto my normal day-to-day life
and do because I believe it'sgoing to make a difference and
make my relationships better.
Today I am honored to be talkingto Dr.
J.R.
Briggs.
(02:10):
He is a leadership coach, he isa speaker, he is an author, he
has written several books,including his most recent one,
The Art of Asking Questions,just came out in October.
And I highly recommend that yougo and check it out because I
know for me, asking betterquestions gets to the heart of
so many disagreements, so manyopportunities, so many things in
(02:31):
life, so much better.
In fact, I've even heard it saidbefore that the result of an
answer that you get, or the typeof answer that you get really
all depends on the type ofquestion you ask.
Better questions equal betterunderstanding, better results,
better future.
Highly recommend that you go getit.
And again, we don't even talkabout this book.
(02:51):
We are on this podcast, but Iknow that you are going to love
JR as much as I truly andthoroughly enjoyed speaking with
JR.
I learned so much.
You will too.
Let's dive in to today'sconversation.
JR, as we start, I was thinking,what is the best feedback that
(03:12):
you have ever gotten fromsomeone?
Do you remember?
SPEAKER_00 (03:16):
When you say best, do you mean like uh most painful
but most significant?
SPEAKER_03 (03:21):
Or what's the worst feedback you've ever gotten?
SPEAKER_01 (03:27):
Well, I will tell you a story.
I don't know if it's the best,but it gives me the best example
of why feedback is so important.
And you may chuckle at this, butmy whole life, I've always
wanted to go to trapeze school.
SPEAKER_03 (03:43):
What?
SPEAKER_01 (03:44):
Yeah.
And and um, yeah, I I like Iride the unicycle and I can
juggle and bounce things on mychin.
And anyway, my wife thinks I didchose the wrong career by not
going into the circus.
But I've always wanted to go totrapeze school.
And so I thought that would be alot of fun.
And but where do you go totrapeze school, right?
Well, a few years ago, myparents who lived in Phoenix was
(04:06):
about four hours away from LasVegas.
Um, this was several years ago.
Our kids were little and theysaid, we'll take the kids, just
take the car and just go toVegas for a couple of days.
Well, we don't party and wedon't go to shows.
And so we're like, we don'tgamble.
Like, what are we gonna do inVegas?
And I started Googling aroundand I saw Trapeze Las Vegas, and
I'm like, that would be a blast.
(04:26):
Let's do it.
And I asked my wife, she's like,You'll do it with me.
I was like, Yeah, really?
She's like, No, no, no, I'm notgonna be up there.
I'll go with you and record fromthe ground.
Um, and so I had Chris, who wasthe Cirque de Soleil trapeze
artist at night at the MGM.
He taught this class during theday.
(04:47):
And it was awesome.
Well, I was slowly getting it.
I mean, it's heights don't scareme, and I can kind of hold my
body weight up on a bar, but um,I just wasn't getting it, it was
just too much to think about.
What I didn't know is when youland on the net nice and safe,
and you have harnesses, you rolloff the net, and there's another
guy there with like a 60-inchflat screen TV.
(05:09):
And I didn't realize there's acamera up above and it watches
your every move.
And so he's right there.
He had rewound it, he has hisremote, and he's slowing it down
frame by frame, pausing it,going, hey, this is good.
You need to arch your back more.
Oh, remember when you get tothis spot, you have to open your
legs up, like extend your legsto let go of the bar behind you.
And I remember thinking, this isawesome.
(05:32):
Not only being up there, butbeing down here and having this
like guy with a remote and goingback.
And I was like, oh, now I seeit.
I say all that to say that's thepower of feedback, is as if
somebody has a clicker in theirhand and a big 60-inch flat
screen TV rewinding it saying,Hey, just so you know, I know
(05:55):
you experienced it yourself, butfrom another angle, and we slow
it down.
This is what is going on in yourlife.
And so is it the best?
No, is it the most fun feedback?
Probably, but it was the examplefor me that said, this is what
feedback can do in every area ofyour life.
And Ollie was helping me.
(06:15):
And by the way, by the end ofthe time, I was able to nail the
trick.
I don't think I would be able tonail the trick had the guy on
the ground not been giving methose diagrams every time I
tried an attempt.
So, anyway, probably not whatyou're looking for, but that to
me is like the funnest.
SPEAKER_02 (06:34):
That is a super fun one.
And I believe, JR, that it thatit paints a really great picture
too, because you on that tightrope, you can't see what other
people see.
And those are the things thatfor you to actually do what you
need to do is going to make thedifference, right?
And so, gosh, thinking about melike recording myself in
(06:56):
different situations in my life,uh, not on, you know, not on a
trapeze, but but even in somelike an argument that I have
with my husband or a meetingthat I'm in with my team,
there's some like, oh, how wouldI see myself?
And how would that come across?
Uh and and that's what we get,right?
(07:17):
We can't always play the cardplay the playback, but we can
hear it from other people.
So, why is it so difficult, youthink, for us to hear feedback
from other people?
SPEAKER_01 (07:30):
Yeah.
Several things.
The first of all, it's it'sdifficult because it's so
personal.
I mean, let me just acknowledgethat giving and receiving
feedback is hard because it'sscary and it's awkward.
And maybe some of yourlisteners, like you and I, have
probably been hurt or shamedthrough the process of giving or
receiving feedback.
And so because it feels sopersonal, even under the best
(07:53):
circumstances when feedback'sgiven to us, it still feels like
you hate me.
You know, it's like a personalattack.
That's that's the the first one.
The other thing is we just ithasn't been modeled well, and so
it's really hard to actually dosomething if it hasn't been
modeled well for us.
And we also, sadly, we we have alittle bit of uh of bias of
(08:16):
thinking, well, because it's mylife, I do this really well
already, or it's not that bad,or they're probably not um
giving me enough credit.
You know, do they know how hardI worked on this?
And so because of that, it's wefeel underappreciated and
totally exposed.
And because it's not modeledwell, then we just either do it
poorly or we just don't share itwith others, or we share it with
(08:41):
others inappropriately, butbehind their back.
And so that's where feedback canbe really, really hard.
SPEAKER_02 (08:50):
What do you think is more important or a more
important skill set to develop?
Giving feedback well orreceiving feedback well?
SPEAKER_01 (09:00):
It's a fantastic question.
Most certainly healthyrelationships require both.
But I do believe that receivingfeedback is more important,
followed close by a close secondof giving feedback.
What do I mean?
Proverbs.
You know, wisdom welcomescorrection.
Fools resist it.
I mean, it's just over and overand over again in the Proverbs.
(09:23):
So I mean, I'm just gonna acouple here in front of me.
You know, Proverbs 15, 31 and32.
Whoever heeds life-givingcorrection will be at home among
the wise.
Those who disregard disciplinedespise themselves, but the one
who heeds correction gainsunderstanding.
I mean, it's just a mark overand over again of that.
How about this line, Proverbs12, 1, always sticks out to me.
(09:43):
Whoever loves discipline lovesknowledge.
So discipline could be, it is aform of feedback.
But whoever hates correction isstupid.
It's like, tell us what youreally think, you know?
So if we hate correction, if wedon't receive feedback, the
scriptures say we're stupid.
And so that's uh that's why Ireally believe if we can have
(10:07):
the humility to receive feedbackwell, then I think we will also
earn the trust and the right tobe able to give feedback in
that.
If we start with giving feedbackbut can't receive it well, um,
that doesn't bode well for uhhow we interact with other human
relationships.
SPEAKER_02 (10:25):
You know, I I love that you brought up Proverbs.
I started reading Proverbs inJanuary, so just a chapter a
day.
And yeah, or a couple days ago,I said to my husband, I said, So
basically, and I've you knowI've read Proverbs before.
I was like, basically, it says,Don't be stupid, keep your mouth
shut, and don't lend money topeople you don't know.
SPEAKER_01 (10:45):
Like it was Yes, yes, absolutely.
I love that you brought that outbecause the in the Proverbs
there are several there areseveral themes.
Um, the difference betweenwisdom and foolishness is how we
use our tongue, how we use ourtime, how we use our money, how
we use our genitals, and how werespond to feedback.
SPEAKER_02 (11:08):
Oh my gosh, can you repeat all those?
SPEAKER_01 (11:09):
Okay, between the difference between wisdom and
foolishness, yes, is how we useour tongue, uh-huh, how we use
our time, how we use our money,how we use our genitals, and how
we receive feedback.
SPEAKER_02 (11:26):
That is fascinating.
I have never heard that before,and yes, it makes total sense.
And it is, it's all aboutdiscernment and prudence and how
to like seeking wisdom and goingafter wisdom.
Um, and so in in that, let's getreal practical.
So you said to receive feedbackwell, it allows us to earn the
(11:47):
trust from someone else to inthe future give them feedback.
So, what are some things that wecan do to be good feedback
receivers?
SPEAKER_01 (11:56):
Yes, yes.
So, one of them is to ask betterand more specific and more
thoughtful questions out ofhumility.
Um, sometimes we ask reallygeneric questions like, so what
do you think?
But instead, it's to be morespecific to say, you know what,
(12:16):
I realize I've been sarcasticthe last several months, uh, and
I want to get better at that.
Do you feel like I'm bringingsarcasm into our conversations?
Or if you're a presenter, hey,you know, rather than say, How
did I do if I am a speaker orpreacher or presenter, but
instead to say, you know, I'vereally been trying to work on
the my introduction, the firstfive minutes.
(12:38):
Or I've been saying a lot offiller words of um and yeah, and
uh, did you sense that that waspresent?
And how can I get better atthat?
So I think that you can ask morespecific questions, number one.
Um, Adam Grant talks abouthaving a challenge network.
And I think we all need achallenge network.
These are people that love us,know us, want what's best for
(12:59):
us, but they're completelytruthful with us when we need to
get better.
They push us to say, you know,that presentation you gave,
you've done better.
It fell flat, wasn't engagement.
I think you can do better nexttime, rather than like, oh,
everything was great.
Um, I think the other thing,too, we can uh we can do is
prime the pump.
What do I mean by that?
Like, if I get done with aconversation and I'll say, you
(13:22):
know, honey, I I want to getbetter of not being so
defensive.
But I want to start by saying, Ididn't, I didn't feel like I did
a great job.
I was defensive.
So if I own it first, then it'seasier for them to say, yeah, I
think you were a little bitdefensive.
Or if I'm leading a team meetingand I say, you know what, I feel
like I talked a lot more than Ishould have in that team
(13:45):
meeting.
But I'm curious, what what doyou think?
Was that so I'm not trying to beuh I'm not trying to knock
myself or um be self-effeffacing, but um, but I kind of
am because I'm trying to givethem an in for them to say,
yeah, yeah, I kind of felt thattoo.
Um, it is so hard, Kimberly, butwhen you receive feedback to
(14:08):
make sure you don't react orbecome defensive to receive it
graciously and humbly, and evenon the insides, when you may
just be saying, like, um, youknow, I don't know, like, what?
I didn't do that.
Are you kidding me?
It's just to take a breath.
And I've learned that the onlytwo words that I really need to
(14:30):
say is only two.
Thank you.
Thank you.
It doesn't mean that I alwaysagree with them.
It doesn't mean they're alwaysright.
It means that I'm thanking themfor taking the time to share it
with me.
And I'm rather they share itcourageous and courageously with
me to my face than to gossipabout me behind my back or to
(14:51):
keep it buried.
So thank you for having thecourage.
Thank you for sharing.
I feel honored that you broughtit to me.
It doesn't acknowledgeeverything you said was just
right.
What I'm doing is then coming,if going back to it and saying,
okay, Lord, is this true?
Or to other people.
This was feedback I got.
(15:12):
Do you agree or disagree withthis?
Or I could journal and reflectabout it and go, you know what?
Yeah, rewinding the tape.
I could have, I could have doneit better.
The other thing I instructpeople to do is once you get
that feedback, is to write itdown and write it down fairly
quickly after you receive it.
Why?
Because we get defensive and thealarm goes off and a lot of
(15:33):
things happen in a day.
If you write it down shortlyafter, we won't exaggerate what
people say.
You know, do they say I alwaysam sarcastic or am I sarcastic
in certain conversations?
I can quickly extrapolate tomake them out to be the bad, the
bad person.
So write it down as specificallyas I can remember it.
(15:57):
And sometimes I'll circle backand say, I just want to make
sure I caught it.
Is this what you said?
Is this the essence of thefeedback you were giving me?
I just want to make sure I getit right.
And then to work on it and say,not 15 things, but one thing.
They may have offered 15, butcan I do one thing?
(16:17):
And then from that one thing towork on it every day, even if
small, for 30 days, and to justsay, okay, I'm gonna try to
eliminate sarcasm every day fora whole month.
Can I train myself that way?
And then to circle back aroundlater and say, Hey, I've been
trying to work on what you saidto me about my sarcasm.
(16:40):
Do you sense I'm improving inthat?
And if so, how?
But be honest with me.
If not, please tell me becausethen it's gonna show me I still
have some more work to do.
Man, that it's a lot of innerwork you got to do to ask that.
So I'm not saying this is easy,especially in the moment.
And feedback is way better toreceive when I'm expecting it or
(17:00):
when I'm initiating it.
It's way harder to receive itwhen I didn't know it was
coming, and it's much harsher ofcontent and harsher of tone and
presentation than maybe I wasready for.
So I'm speaking as someone stillpicking up the breadcrumbs along
the trail myself.
I'm learning alongside of uh uhof you and your listeners here
(17:24):
too.
SPEAKER_02 (17:25):
I mean, so much of what you have said with uh, you
know, don't be defensive, primethe pump, try and own it first,
intentionally seek it out.
Even if you don't agree with it,write it down, thank them.
I mean, all of this does comeback to really I think, and tell
(17:46):
me what, tell me if you thinkdifferently, this idea of
there's a baseline of humilityunderneath it.
And so maybe the next questionshould be because I wrote down a
lot of questions around severaldifferent aspects you you wrote,
such as, you know, uh, well,what's the line between asking
for too much feedback?
Like, is there a time whereyou're just trying to ask for it
(18:08):
in order to hear good thingsabout yourself?
Or, you know, what about if it'sliterally or actually coming
from someone that you don'tagree or that you don't have a
relationship with, or they'retotally off base.
But maybe I maybe we shouldstart with just how do we become
more humble so that we canreceive feedback better and
ultimately give and just have adifferent hand posture with it,
(18:30):
right?
Like sometimes I think likethis, right?
Like I'm gripping my hands oryou know, not what what am I
doing?
Clenching my hands into a fistwhen I get feedback and it's
like, here's all the reasons Iwant to fight you, or here's the
things I don't want to give upabout, me about what you're
saying, here's all the reasonsyou're wrong, as opposed to this
very open-handed position oflike, hey, if you have something
(18:50):
that can help me be better, helpme be a better steward, like I
want to hear it.
And it's just a much moreopen-handed posture that's hard
to get to sometimes.
Yes.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (19:04):
Yes, yes.
I've had to train my thinkingvery intentionally in this area.
There are other areas I need todo better at of training, but
I've worked very hard and I feellike I've there's been a long
way to go still.
But some of those things I sayto myself are some like mantras.
One of them is a quote from KenBlanchard where he said,
(19:24):
Feedback is the breakfast ofchampions.
I love that line.
I say that line all the time.
And I go, JR, feedback is thebreakfast of champions.
It's the only way I'm gonnagrow.
So to me, that's an importantpiece to remember.
The other one is to remember,even just theologically, like, I
am not perfect.
As an Enneagram one, I want tobe perfect, but I can't be.
(19:47):
And so, even just acknowledgingtheologically, like there's just
I I no matter how hard I try, Ican't be perfect, which means
there will always be room forimprovement in me.
Um, another mantra that I'vesaid to my to my boys when I
mess up and and yell at them orI'm impatient or whatever, I'm
in an irritable, in a bad mood,especially when they were
(20:08):
younger, is I not as an excuse,I would repair quickly and say,
I shouldn't, dad shouldn't havedone that.
I shouldn't have snapped likethat.
I shouldn't have.
And one of the lines I say, andit's not to excuse my behavior,
but to help them understand, Isay, Dad will not be a perfect
dad, but I always will be alearning dad.
And so then I translate thatover to say, I'm not going to be
(20:31):
a perfect human or a perfectleader, but I will always be a
learning human and a learningleader.
That, to me, I will always makethat commitment.
So just also remembering, likeif I want to grow, I'm going to
have to crave feedback and yousee it as gifts, see them as
gifts and not as curses.
(20:52):
Because for my own growth anddevelopment, I don't know how
I'm going to grow without that.
That'll make me a betteremployee and boss and spouse and
parent and friend and humanbeing in so many areas.
If I realize it's not aboutperfection, it's about can I
grow 1% every day?
Can I just get better andbetter?
(21:13):
It is impossible to be aneffective leader if I do not
proactively and intentionallygive and receive feedback.
So it's some of these mantrasand things I have to say to
myself that actually prepares mefor realizing the feedback loops
are the only way I can grow.
Emotionally intelligent peopleare emotionally intelligent
(21:35):
because they have learned tocreate regular and frequent
feedback loops, whether theylike it or not, to learn how to
grow in those areas.
So I think that's back to theproverbs.
If we want to grow in wisdom andemotional intelligence, we're
going to have to receivefeedback better.
I don't think there's any wayaround it.
For thousands of years, that'sbeen the case in human nature,
(21:56):
and I don't think it's stoppinganytime soon.
SPEAKER_02 (21:59):
Do you think there's any such thing as getting too
much feedback?
Maybe probably in this instance,it would be you're requesting it
all the time.
Do you think there's do youthink that's a possibility?
SPEAKER_01 (22:13):
I do.
I think the most importantquestion we can ask to start
before we open our mouths to askourselves, what's my motive?
Is my motive that I reallygenuinely want to grow?
Or is my motive some sort ofsecret way of trying to um seek
out affirmation, you know, to tolook for uh pats on backs.
(22:37):
Um, you know, what is my motivehere?
I think um some people seek outaffirmation through feedback,
you know.
Um, how did I do?
Oh, thank you so much, you know,and then we're sort of fake
flattered.
On the other side, though, thereare some people what I'll call
feedback masochists, where theyjust they just feel like I'm
terrible and I I should justhear from everybody how terribly
(23:01):
I did, and and then what they dois they dissect it so much it
just sucks the life out ofwhatever they were working on.
And so there are times where wejust and I'm a like I said, I'm
a feedback junkie.
There are times we just need tolet it go and say, I gave it my
best and I'm gonna release it.
(23:22):
Um I I was fortunate enough herein my twenties to have met
Dallas Willard a few times.
And I remember talking with himand saying, Dallas, what do you
do when you just have given aterrible talk, a terrible
presentation, a terribleteaching, and you just want to
beat yourself up?
And he gave me this image Istill use.
He said, I walk off the platformand I just pretend I'm holding a
(23:45):
helium balloon.
And he said, I just gave my bestand then I just let it go.
Now he's evaluating that andprobably hearing from others of
how to get better, but he's alsosaying, I need to release
outcomes to God, and so Irelease the helium balloon.
Some people survey themselves todeath, right?
(24:08):
Where they sometimes formalsurveys, scale of one to ten,
how did I do?
And they sort of do somehand-wringing.
I think we have to know inwisdom when it's time to say,
I've got enough feedback.
Okay, let's let's move on.
Too much of it, I think we getin our own head, and it can
(24:28):
provide not humility, but deepinsecurity if we're not careful.
SPEAKER_02 (24:34):
Reminds me of something I've heard John
Maxwell say before about how hehad a mentor who said to him in
his earlier years, your speakingability is a gift.
It is not yours.
It is God's gift he gave to you.
Therefore, like don't let it goto your head was basically the
(24:56):
premise of it.
And so that's the image that'scoming to mind too.
The things that we ask forfeedback on.
Some of it is how we show up andlike maybe our character and and
things like that.
But a lot of the things are alsothe gifts that we have or the
gifts that God has given us thatwe that I know I want to make
sure is the best.
And when I can take that, and Idon't always do a great job at
(25:16):
this, let's be real.
But when I can take that andmake it separate from me because
it's not from me, it's not mine,like it's just a gift.
Then I think that mentally kindof makes it easier to ask for
and see feedback because it'sthis this thing.
It's not in me, it's likewonderful.
SPEAKER_01 (25:35):
Yes, and it's and it's also being rooted in what
is my identity.
Is my identity determined by howby how well I do something?
Or is my identity rooted in whoI am and to whom I belong?
And so there's a lot of insidethe house work that has to be
done, you know, to say, who amI?
(25:56):
Am I defined by the approvalratings of other people?
Or is my identity rooted inexactly who I am?
And then out of that, I can actor speak or write or interact
with my family or my friends.
And so, yeah, and let's behonest.
I mean, I there was one leaderwho said, You shall know the
(26:17):
true and truth, and it'll makeyou wince, and then it'll set
you free.
And there's a lot of truth tothat, right?
And so there's a lot of like,ouch, ooh.
And for me, Kimberly, thehardest feedback is the stuff
that when it's said to me, Iknow is absolutely true.
unknown (26:36):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (26:37):
Right?
It's not the stuff that's like,man, they're crackpots, they
don't know what they're talkingabout.
You know, it's the like, oh, younailed me, and you are exactly
right.
Ouch.
Thank you, but ouch.
To me, that's the hardestfeedback.
SPEAKER_02 (26:56):
Yeah.
The the I want to touch a littlebit more on the identity part
that you just mentioned.
I think the um, at least for me,you know, growing up in church,
that who am I?
For me, it's something I'veheard a lot, especially in my
faith, right?
It's it's I'm I am all of thesethings that God says I am.
(27:17):
I am a daughter of God, I amloved, I am chosen.
How would you explain thatthough, to the people listening
who maybe are not Christians andmaybe this is a new concept to
them?
SPEAKER_01 (27:29):
Yes, yeah, that's great.
Um, that is one of the beautifulthings about the Christian story
is realizing that if it is onour own effort, we're all in
trouble.
And that sounds pessimistic, butof going, no matter how hard I
(27:49):
try, I will always come upshort.
And that will add all thepressure in the world on me to
perform and to find my identityin uh again approval ratings,
money, success in my job, mylooks, my you know, bank
account, my promotion, my jobtitle.
And we know how exhausting thatactually is.
(28:11):
We've all felt it.
But to be able to know, as yousaid, like that we are we are
loved, that grace is availableto us not because of our
performance, but because simplywe are a beloved child of God.
And that is really hard tograsp, even for someone who I
would describe myself as aprofessional Christian paid to
(28:34):
love Jesus.
You know, I mean, I'm one ofthose like pastor Christian
leader types, and it's stillhard for me.
Grace is wonderful, but theworld does not operate by grace,
as Bono of U2 says, the worldoperates by karma, God operates
by grace.
No wonder it's so hard for us tounderstand what grace actually
(28:57):
is.
You know, karma says you do agood thing, you get rewarded.
You succeed in your role, you'reapplauded.
You don't do well in your job,you are shunned.
You do something wrong, you payfor it.
That's that's a hard place tobe.
And so it doesn't mean we don'ttry.
It doesn't make us lazy.
(29:18):
It means that we're freed upthen to live out of our identity
with the right motives.
As Dallas Willard said, that thegood news, the gospel, is not
against work, it's againstearning.
And that differentiation isreally important.
SPEAKER_02 (29:35):
Man, it it is really important.
It's also sometimes a veryblurry line, depending on how
someone's wired.
Are you have you ever heard?
I'm a geek, so I'm a researcher,I love research, and there's
this uh theoretical, there'sthis theory in psychology called
the contingencies of self-worth.
SPEAKER_01 (29:56):
Have you ever no, no, I'm curious, tell me.
SPEAKER_02 (30:00):
I think you'll love this.
So uh they're in a secularschool, I can't remember the
school, but the researcher wasuh Jennifer Crocker, and she
looked at, okay, what I want toresearch what are the
contingencies of people'sself-worth?
What are the nine differentareas that people are most
likely to place their self-worthin?
SPEAKER_01 (30:18):
Oh, fascinating.
SPEAKER_02 (30:20):
There were things like family support,
competition, appearance, virtue.
I'm not gonna remember all nineright now, but God's love was
one of them.
And what she found was that overtime, the people who put the
majority of their contingenciesof self-worth in God's love were
(30:40):
the ones that had the most likestable feelings of self-worth,
overall life satisfactionlevels.
And it was it was also kind ofup there with like family
support and virtue.
But these other things likecompetition and appearance and
the ones that were just so muchmore fleeting.
SPEAKER_01 (30:57):
Fascinating.
SPEAKER_02 (30:58):
Isn't it though?
I love when research just backswhat the Bible has already
pulled up.
SPEAKER_01 (31:05):
I love that, Kimberly.
Isn't it?
SPEAKER_02 (31:07):
I I just it makes me warm and aside.
SPEAKER_01 (31:10):
Yes.
Yes.
Um, oh, that's fantastic.
I want to actually look that upand dig into it myself.
That's fantastic.
SPEAKER_02 (31:15):
But yeah, I'll I'll also be sure to email you even
just like the original papersthat she that she wrote on.
SPEAKER_00 (31:21):
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (31:22):
Um, because I just I just find that so fascinating.
Okay, we've talked about givingreceiving feedback.
This is the most important thinguh for us to be able to do.
It requires humility, itrequires like asking questions
that we get clarity, not beingdefensive, going, not attacking
someone when they do it, justsimply saying thank you.
Let's transition now into whatif we what if we got something
(31:45):
on our mind and we have somefeedback to give?
What are the things that we cando to make sure that we try and
do this in the best waypossible?
SPEAKER_01 (31:55):
Yeah.
Well, I've had this is ahard-fought lesson that I've had
to learn that's taken severalyears.
I probably should have learnedit way sooner than I have,
Kimberly.
But, you know, the first thingis asking myself, does this
person want to receive it?
And is this the right time?
I mean, I know that sounds soelementary, but doing the right
(32:16):
thing at the wrong time canbecome the wrong thing.
And um, there's a great EdwinFriedman quote, and Friedman
talks about this, and it's justa couple sentences, if you don't
mind, I'd love to read itbecause it it's revolutionized
how I think about givingfeedback.
He said, the colossalmisunderstanding of our time is
the assumption that insight willwork with people who are
(32:39):
unmotivated to change.
Communication does not depend onsyntax or eloquence or rhetoric
or articulation, but on theemotional context in which the
message is being heard.
And then this is the line thatslays me every time.
People can only hear you whenthey are moving toward you.
And they are not likely to whenyour words are pursuing them.
(33:03):
Even the choicest words losetheir power when they are used
to overpower.
Attitudes are the real figure ofspeech.
And it is that line that I readseveral years ago.
People can only hear you whenyou're moving toward them.
And it could be physically, butalso as we, you know,
emotionally, relationally,socially.
I can give feedback until I'mblue in the face.
(33:24):
And it could be reallybrilliant.
But if they aren't moving towardme, I'm probably wasting my time
and maybe theirs too.
And I think there have beentimes I've metaphorically wanted
to bang my head against the wallof going, I'm trying to help
you.
Why won't you let me help you?
I want to give you feedback.
But they're so resistant.
And so that's hard.
And people say, Oh, do we nevergive our kids feedback?
(33:45):
I'm like, no, that's that'sdifferent.
That's instruction, that'sguidance as a parent.
But feedback, yeah, it's really,really hard.
And so that's why I have to ask,does this person want feedback?
There are a few exceptions.
I do need to tell someone thatthey need feedback if they may
not even want to hear it.
(34:06):
But true change happens whenpeople are moving toward us,
which is why trust is important.
But also what is their level ofintrinsic motivation here?
And is this the right time?
There are times I want to hearfrom other people, um, friends,
family, but I'm just not in theright headspace.
(34:27):
And I have to say, you knowwhat?
Yeah.
I I hope my friends and familygive me feedback, but not right
now.
I'm pretty tender.
I'm pretty raw, I'm prettyvulnerable at the moment.
Tomorrow or next week, I'm gonnaprobably be in a better
headspace to receive it.
So I think that's that's thefirst one.
You know, we were taught as akid about the sandwich approach,
(34:49):
right?
Affirmation, feedback,affirmation.
I think we that that can be ahelpful principle, but it we
have to be careful that itdoesn't come across so robotic
that people are like, oh,they're just saying that nice
thing because uh-oh, here comesthe hard part.
So we want to be really carefulabout that.
But to give it specifically,frequently, and in small doses
(35:12):
and not all at once.
We can overwhelm people.
They walk off the stage and say,Do you have any feedback for me?
Yeah, I've got 15 things thatyou didn't do well.
Whoa.
How about you just pick one ortwo?
Um, I find too that people areless defensive when you ask for
permission.
Not only is it respectful, butit actually helps give them a
(35:34):
few more seconds to preparethemselves that something is
coming and to put their guarddown.
So it could sound something likethis.
You know, I have some feedbackthat I believe could help you
moving forward.
If you'd ever like to know that,just let me know and I'd be glad
to share it.
So I'm not even sharing it.
I'm saying I have feedback, butyou're in the driver's seat.
(35:55):
You tell me if you want it.
So that's the first one, or alittle bit more direct.
Can I provide you some feedbackin this moment?
I think that would be helpful.
It's a bit rhetorical, but it'sstill invitational.
Very rarely will people say, no,don't give me feedback.
But I'm doing it as a polite wayof, hey, I really think this
could be helpful.
Or maybe a little bit lessdirect.
(36:17):
You know, I'm curious, um, howwould you know if you're doing a
good job by leading your staffmeetings?
Like, I don't know.
Or how do you know if you'recommunicating well in your
marriage or with your kids?
I don't know.
It's like, well, if you'd everwant a little bit of feedback,
(36:39):
I'd be glad to provide a gentlemirror to hold that up if that
would be helpful.
So I think that's that's that'shelpful, especially if you are a
supervisor or in some sort ofauthority role, to sprinkle it
in regularly rather than dump itall at once.
Why do we get so scared to deathof an annual review at work?
(37:00):
It's because we haven't gottenfeedback for 364 days, and then
all of a sudden we're gonna getthis formal dump professionally,
and so we don't know if we'regonna get promoted or fired.
Well, as supervisors, it's goodto just sprinkle in positive and
negative regularly rather thanone dump truck backed up and
then just dumped all over ourdesk.
(37:22):
Um, and then again, how matters,our tone, our body language, our
volume, our pace.
And so, yeah, how matters, howwe do things really matters.
So there are a few more I couldshare, but I'll stop there.
But those are those are a fewways that I've had to learn,
sometimes the very hard way, uh,of my intent was good, but I
(37:45):
just inflicted a whole lot ofdamage or awkwardness onto other
people.
Um, and so I thought it washelping, but I made it worse.
SPEAKER_02 (37:52):
I love what you said about um, well, two things.
I think the even just the askingfor permission, and it made a
ton of sense when I heard yousay it.
It even if you're about to giveit, right?
Like you're in a situation whereyou're not really asking if you,
if they ever want to hear itcome back, but it allowing their
brain to just be like, okay, Iunderstand now what's kind of
(38:14):
just those brief, because I seeit, right?
Like I told I just I got it assoon as you said it.
Um, and the pacing, I know Ihave noticed when when I'm like
in the middle of a conversationand it's not going well, and I
want to give feedback, I tend tospeed up or I tend to like feel
(38:35):
it internally.
And I'm like, I you need tounderstand something right now,
right?
And so even just being able toreset myself and maybe not say
the feedback the most in some ofthose conversations, but even
just calm myself down and slowmy tone so that they don't get
as worked up, and it also likekeeps me from getting too worked
(38:57):
up.
SPEAKER_01 (38:58):
Absolutely, it works both ways, right?
And so if we come in and say,Well, you did this and then
this, and then after that, thishappened, and then I mean, how
could someone not growdefensive?
But if you say, I just want toshare a couple things, there are
three, actually, there are threethings I want to share.
And so here's the first one, andthen maybe after the first one I
could say, let me just pausethere.
Do you have any thoughts orbefore I go to number two?
(39:20):
Do you have any thoughts orreflections on that first one?
Can I clarify anything for you?
Or just let it breathe a littlebit, just let you take it in.
But anyway, I just want to andthey're like, no, that's fine.
What's number two?
Or yeah, could you clarify whatyou mean?
Or can you give me an example?
Yeah.
Well, like last week thishappened.
It's like, okay, all right.
(39:41):
Can I share the second one now?
I mean, you see how the pacingof that it just allows it to
breathe a little bit wherepeople can receive it best.
SPEAKER_02 (39:48):
100%.
So I I would like to get yourfeedback on feedback I have been
given about feedback I give.
SPEAKER_01 (39:57):
Oh, it's getting meta.
SPEAKER_00 (40:00):
It's been real meta.
SPEAKER_02 (40:02):
Uh I I have been told, and actually, the more I
think about it, I think I mayhave been told this in every
area of my life.
So I should probably take heedto it, that I can be very um,
I'm gonna say the word abrasive.
I don't, I don't think that'sthe word people have said to me,
(40:22):
but that's probably what theywant to say to me when they when
I give feedback.
Like I I have heard, I feel likeyou point out the bad more than
you point out the good.
And honestly, it's I don'tdisagree, uh, but I don't feel
that way about myself.
Like I feel like I'm typicallyexcited and optimistic and like
(40:44):
I love you all and you're doinga great job.
But for whatever reason, and itcan be my own, my own blind
spot, like I don't give positivefeedback enough.
So how or when I give it, it isnot received the same way as
when the more intentional, likenot the more negative feedback,
(41:06):
the ones that are more likecorrective.
So, how would you recommend forme to to shift that perspective
in literally?
Like I'm thinking, I think I'veheard this from one person in
every type of area of my life.
SPEAKER_01 (41:22):
Okay, yeah, yeah.
Well, first of all, good for youfor recognizing that pattern,
right?
It's hard, right?
It's making you wince, right?
You shall hear the truth, it'llmake you wince, and then you'll
be set free, right?
You're wincing.
That's true.
It's not fun, but at leastyou're not going, well, all my
friends are stupid, or theydon't understand.
So I just want to just say,Kimberly, I love the fact that
you just are willing to receivethat, even though it's made you
(41:44):
cringe.
You're going, Yep, this isimportant to receive, number
one.
Number two, uh, I think it'sreally important.
Um I always like to say, we livein a world that likes to catch
people doing things wrong.
Can I be the kind of leader thattrains myself to catch people
doing things right?
SPEAKER_03 (42:02):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (42:02):
And so a question I have picked up, and I I never
want to ask it when it'sdisingenuous, is a bit of a
rhetorical question that's alsoaffirmation.
So it goes like this.
Um, how'd you get so good atasking questions, Kimberly?
How'd you get so good at helpingmarriages thrive?
(42:24):
I mean, they can answer it, butI'm also affirming you that's
what you do really well.
They may want to answer it, andthat's great.
Or how'd you get so good atkicking a soccer ball?
How'd you get so good at yourballet dancing?
Like, that's amazing.
Think of what that would do in amarriage, think of what that
would do with our chick, withour kids, with our coworkers,
(42:47):
with our friends, our neighbors.
How'd you get so good at cuttingyour lawn?
I mean, it could be as trivialas that.
Um, and so that to me iscatching people things, doing
things right.
The second thing is I alwaysthink about, especially with
parenting, um, bank accounts.
And can I make deposits intotheir bank account?
(43:07):
And so if I affirm my sons withthis, and it could be a big
thing or a little comment hereor there, but a$20 deposit, a
$100 deposit, a$7 deposit.
And over time, then when I haveto withdraw and I have to make a
big withdrawal of severalhundred dollars of given some
hard feedback, I don't overdraw.
(43:27):
If I have not put anything inthe trust bank account and I
only have 20 bucks, but I've gotto make a$300 withdrawal,
they're like, who do you thinkyou are?
Like, they don't, they don'tknow me.
They don't care about me.
And so for me, I'm alwaysthinking, how can I invest in
the trust account?
And that's a question and ametaphor that I'm thinking about
regularly with the people aroundme.
(43:48):
And so if I affirm them, itcould be seven bucks.
Or if I affirm them in front ofthe whole company at a company
event with 300 people from themicrophone, from the from the
podium, man, that could be a$200emotional investment in their
account.
So then when I have to pull themaside and say, you know what,
you do this really well, as Imentioned, but we got to talk
(44:08):
about this issue here.
And I wish we didn't have to,but for your own growth and
development, we're gonna have totalk about it.
And it may make usuncomfortable, but we got to
talk about it.
As long as I don't overdraw,those overdraw fees in
leadership are really painful.
And so if there's not enoughtrust in the bank account, we're
(44:31):
we're gonna we're gonna havedifficulty in how that feedback
is received when we give it.
SPEAKER_02 (44:39):
How do you approach it when you really are riled up?
Like you are hot, you are angry.
Do you give it?
Do you wait?
How do you calm yourself down sothat you aren't just speaking
out of your complete, what isit, the reptilian brain that's
like all-yeah, the reptilianbrain.
SPEAKER_01 (45:01):
Yeah.
Yeah.
What do you do?
It's a great question, Kimberly.
I have no idea because that'snever happened to me.
I never struggle.
No, I'm totally kidding.
No, I mean, I struggle with thisjust like the rest of us.
Um, I mentioned Dallas Willarduh earlier.
Uh another gift he gave me is Ihad lunch with him one time and
(45:24):
I said, What do you do whenpeople are maligning you?
I mean, they're just Trashingyou.
You know, like you know it's nottrue.
They're misunderstanding you,they're putting words in your
mouth, they're assigning motivesyou don't have.
And he, I remember he justlooked across the table, he
reached across, put his hand onkind of on my forearm, and he
said, JR, never defend yourself.
(45:47):
Only offer to explain yourself.
He said, Never react, onlyrespond.
And Kimberly, I'm telling you, Ithink about that probably three
times a month.
And he said that probably 15, 20years ago.
Because when I feel that ragemonster, you know, coming up, I
(46:08):
didn't say that.
That's not me.
What are you talking about?
Um, that's not fair.
I just hear Dallas slowly in myhead saying, JR, don't react,
only respond, don't defendyourself.
And I love this phrase.
He said, only offer to explainyourself.
He didn't say explain yourself.
He didn't say you listen to meand I'm gonna explain myself.
(46:29):
You offer, which means you ask aquestion, say, you know what, I
appreciate you sharing.
I feel like there's someadditional context that may be
helpful.
Would it be okay if I explainedsome of the perspective or the
context that went into thatdecision I made or why I said
that or what I was referring to?
And sometimes people say no.
(46:50):
And I say, you know what?
Okay, then I really think thisconversation probably needs to
come to a close for both of us.
No problem.
But anyway, so that's that's thethe Dallas Willard effect.
Uh, is it 100% foolproof?
No.
I still have you know thought ofthat and still reacted and still
(47:10):
said, You listen to me, and Iyou, you know, how can you?
But I'll tell you, Kimberly, itsaved me tremendously from
saying things that I that Iwould regret or acting upon
things I would be ashamed of.
Um so what do we do if we'reriled up?
I have loved calling timeouts tosay, you know what?
(47:31):
I just need about five minutes.
Can I just go to the restroom,just gather myself?
Can I take a walk around theblock?
Can you give me five minutes inthe bedroom and then I'll just
come out?
I'll be in a better place.
Or can we talk about thistomorrow?
I'm not trying to kick the candown the field here or down the
(47:51):
road here, but what I am tryingto do is realize like, I'm
exhausted, I've had a verystressful day at work, um, I'm
not in a good headspace.
I think with some good sleeptomorrow morning, I would love
to be able to chat with youabout this.
And and and sometimes I havepeople are like, no, I really
want to talk about it now.
So, you know what?
We can.
I'm a little worried, I'm goingto say something I regret.
(48:14):
And I'm afraid that I may saysomething that might hurt you.
I don't want to do that.
And they say, Well, I stillthink we should talk about it.
Fine.
Can we do it in 30 minutes?
Or can you just give me a fewminutes to write out my thoughts
on a piece of paper and thenmaybe I can read those.
I'll be a little more measuredand a little more, a little less
(48:35):
reptilian brain.
So I don't know.
Maybe maybe this is helpful.
These are things I've had to usebecause I'm not great at it.
So I have to employ some ofthese practices.
SPEAKER_02 (48:46):
Yeah, I I love them.
I feel like they're verypractical and also give
permission.
I I think we think, or at leastI do, I have to do it now.
I have to like, you know, figureeverything out or fix it in the
moment or get it all tied up ina bow so that we can move on to
the next thing and not let itlet it linger.
(49:07):
So I think it gives permissionto say it's okay for there to be
time and space and to come back,or to even say, because I think
maybe even for me, like, oh, butI might look weak, right?
If I say, you know what, I needI need some time, but it it's
better for the outcome of therelationship.
SPEAKER_01 (49:23):
Sure.
SPEAKER_02 (49:24):
Right?
Ego aside, pride aside, humilityrising.
SPEAKER_01 (49:28):
Yep, yeah, right.
Sure.
SPEAKER_02 (49:31):
To be able to do that.
SPEAKER_01 (49:32):
Yeah.
And sometimes, Kimberly, I haveto say things like, like, I
mean, I won't go into all thedetails, but an acquaintance
that I know was totallyblindsided, was yelled at in a
public restaurant.
This is last week, that I'mstill like in the real moment,
like in the real time here, I'mstill a little rattled by.
(49:54):
And I was so caught off guard.
I I normally am not tongue-tied,but I was just like, I I I I
mean, I was so caught off guard.
And she, if she knew the fullstory and the full context, if
she had said, help meunderstand, I would be like, Let
me explain myself.
But I was so thrown, she hadtaken her little slice of
(50:18):
perspective and missed thecircumstance of the over the
last month that had occurred.
And I and I just would say, CanI share my?
I wasn't even prepared for that.
All I could muster out, whichI'm grateful I said this is
you've given me a lot to thinkabout, and I'll probably need to
ponder this for a bit and getback to you.
(50:40):
So only thing I could say, andlooking back, I thought, it's
probably handled fairly well.
Like, I don't always handle itwell, but of like, you've given
me a lot to think about.
I need to think about it, andlet me come back.
And after I reflect.
I don't know if it diffused thesituation.
I think it seemed like it did.
(51:02):
Um, and then I was able to comeback and then explain some
things, not in a restaurant,like across the table,
one-on-one.
And she wasn't like, Oh, I'm sosorry.
I didn't know, but by meexplaining it, she goes, Okay,
that gives me some additionalcontext.
What I wanted to say to her was,don't hesitate to ask.
Like, can you help meunderstand?
(51:24):
Dot, dot, dot.
Or from my perspective, I seethis.
Am I missing anything?
That's the feedback I would haveloved for her to ask, because we
would not have then had thatweird situation of uh, you know,
yelling in a restaurant beingyelled at.
So I'm still stinging from that.
(51:44):
Um, that may be a little bit toomuch vulnerability here on the
podcast, but I I feel like,yeah, this is even though I love
this and lead trainings on this,I'm still learning this in real
time too.
SPEAKER_02 (51:56):
I think it is it is life-giving to know that we're
never gonna get to this place.
There's not this, you know, pinultimate, we will arrive,
everything will be easier.
Human relationships are messyand it involves a lot of things.
I mean, one of one of the thingsI say often is I feel like some
of the biggest miracles Godperforms is restoration of
(52:19):
relationships because it takestwo people who have total free
will.
And then, like when that canhappen, it's like, man, what a
picture of of the gospel.
But it's hard.
So I appreciate the openness andrealness.
And it it kind of sounds likeover time, it's a muscle that we
(52:39):
can kind of work and at leastget better at the response, even
if even if the words coming outof our mouth in the moment don't
match the emotion we feel on theinside, if it can buy us time to
sift through that emotion sothat we don't end up doing or
saying something we regret.
That's kind of the gift of it.
SPEAKER_01 (53:01):
That's exactly right.
And I'm so glad you talked aboutit being a muscle, because what
happens when we don't usemuscles?
They atrophy.
SPEAKER_02 (53:07):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (53:07):
And when we use muscles even appropriately at
the gym, we wake up really sorethe next day.
That doesn't mean we did itwrong.
It means we did it right.
Because that's how our musclesgrow.
You have to have sore musclesbefore you experience growth in
your muscles, whether it'slifting weights or running a
marathon or whatever it mightbe, you should feel sore.
(53:30):
That means you're using yourmuscles correctly.
Um, and so yeah, this is amuscle I and even if we have to
pick up the two-pound dumbbells,that's fine.
We don't have to start with 50.
We'll get there.
But I think just giving peoplepermission to say, start small,
that's fine.
And you're sore, that's fine.
We'll work up as the musclegrows.
(53:51):
We don't just pick this upovernight.
I've been working on this for 20years, and I still have a long
way to go on this.
Um yeah, I'm glad you, I'm gladyou used the muscle metaphor
because it it resonates.
SPEAKER_02 (54:06):
JR, as we as we end, for those people who are
thinking, you know what, I wantto be a bit more proactive in
asking for feedback.
What is one question or onephrase or one thing that you
would recommend they they go andask trusted friends, family
members that they believe can behonest with them, but what is a
good question that they can useto ask for feedback today?
SPEAKER_01 (54:30):
If we're emotionally prepared, which sometimes,
again, it can be vulnerable.
I think we could ask uh aquestion like, can you just name
one area where you would like tosee improvement in my life?
It could be a skill, it could bea character issue, it could be
social, spiritual, relational,doesn't matter.
But what is not 15, what is onespecific area where you think it
(54:55):
would be good for me to haveimprovement in my own life?
Um, and I would just say, ifit's a trusted person, to do all
you can to make sure it's safeenough because they're gonna
think does he mean it?
SPEAKER_02 (55:09):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (55:10):
I mean, does he really mean it?
And so to say, I really wouldlove for you to give me the last
five percent of the truth.
Can you name one area in my lifewhere you would like to see
improvement?
Um, I'll throw in another one ifit's okay, because I love
questions, can really quit.
Is when I walk in the room, whatwalks in with me?
(55:31):
And I love that question becauseit's it could be joy,
excitement, energy, or it couldbe judgment, uh, a sour face,
irritability.
But when I walk in the room,what walks in with me can be a
good point of feedback.
SPEAKER_02 (55:50):
I love that one.
I love them both.
I will definitely use themappropriately in in the next
couple of weeks because I wantto know those things.
I definitely want to know thosethings.
And I think all of us do.
We are just scared of knowinghow to word it, who to approach,
how to take it.
But I fully, I mean, these thesethings that we have talked
(56:12):
about, and you know, I heard youtalk about this a couple of
months ago as well, which is whyI knew I had to talk to you
about this because it's sopractical and so applicable and
so just part of our daily livesthat can help us be better and
have better relationships andshow up better.
And so, I mean, for all of thosereasons and more, JR, I have
(56:34):
loved our conversation and Ithank you so much for your time.
It's been a gift and a joy.
Thank you so much.
SPEAKER_01 (56:42):
Well, thanks, Kimberly.
This has been great.
And I would welcome anyfeedback, even on or off air.
I would welcome that anytime.
But you're I'm so grateful forthis time.
Thanks for having me on.
SPEAKER_02 (56:52):
Okay, y'all.
I told y'all this was going tobe an amazing podcast.
I took so many notes.
And really, when I boil it downto the three key things that I
am taking away more thananything, the first one is that
feedback is a gift.
It's not someone just telling mehow I'm not good enough.
It's not a way to remind myselfthat I need to do more or be
(57:17):
different or whatever it mightbe.
It's a gift.
It's a gift to help me bebetter, to show up differently
and to be kinder or just abetter woman overall in all of
my relationships.
And so for me, I know I canstruggle with this, but I want
to continually remind myselfthat feedback is a gift.
(57:40):
It's an opportunity for growth.
And so we should treat it thatway and cherish it.
My second key takeaway fromtoday's conversation is asking
myself these two questionsbefore I give feedback.
Number one, does this personeven want to receive it right
now?
Because the right thing at thewrong time is still the wrong
(58:00):
thing.
And number two, give feedbackspecifically, frequently, in
small doses, not all at once.
And even that point of askingfor permission beforehand.
Hey, I've been seeing something,or I see a way that you can
grow, or I've been seeing a waythat we could have better
conversations and bettercommunication when we disagree
(58:22):
about something.
Would you mind if I shared thatwith you?
It allows the brain those coupleof seconds to prepare for it.
And people always tend toreceive things better when the
permission is asked for.
And then third of all, remindingmyself that it's okay for me to
simply say, thank you.
I need to process this.
Or, hey, can we come back tothis at a time when I am better
(58:45):
able to talk about it?
I'm just really drained rightnow.
Because trying to force aconversation when I'm in the
middle of being completely riledup, or the other person is in,
is in a riled up state,typically you can't fight
through that.
You're not going to get to agood outcome on the other side
of it.
(59:06):
So allowing those timeouts isokay.
There is permission to do that.
And then my bonus takeaway, andI'm going to do this, I
encourage you to do it as well,is finding a person in your
life, someone who can be honestwith you, maybe a couple of
people, and either asking thequestion, when I walk into a
room, what walks in with me?
(59:27):
Or, hey, if you would like tosee improvement in any area of
my life, what would you whatwould you recommend?
These are ways that we canalways continue to grow, show up
different and better in ourrelationships.
And ultimately, it helps us tobe more attractive, but also to
have even more influence.
Until next week, stay strong.
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