March 10, 2026 • 49 mins
You know that thing you keep saying you're going to do? The conversation you keep avoiding. The vision you have for your life that you keep putting on hold because everyone else needs something from you first.
You might think it's balance... but it's not. It's fear.
In this episode, I sit down with Micheal Felker and we get into what actually keeps people stuck, and it's not what most people think. We talk about the difference between acute and chronic anxiety, why anxiety is contagious (and I tell a story from Kenya that proves it), and what self-differentiation really means when you're trying to lead your life without losing yourself to everyone else's expectations.
Micheal shares a story about a man on a bridge that will change how you think about the responsibility you're carrying for other people's lives. And we get honest about what it looks like when you care too much about what people think of you, and what it costs you.
If you've ever felt like you're doing more work for someone else's life than they are, this one's for you.
In this episode we cover: → How to identify what's really keeping you stuck → The difference between acute and chronic anxiety → Why anxiety spreads and how to stop carrying everyone else's → What self-differentiation is and why it matters for leaders, parents, and anyone trying to move forward → The "bridge" story that will make you rethink who you're holding on to → How to have the nerve to choose your own vision without disconnecting from the people you love
Today's Guest: Micheal Felker
Micheal Felker is passionate about helping people experience hope and transformation in the areas that matter most - faith, leadership, and marriage. He serves as a pastoral coach through his ministry Kicking at the Darkness and works with Marriage Helper, supporting individuals and couples who want to rebuild and strengthen their marriages. Micheal loves helping leaders find hope, grow in resilience, and lead with courage in every area of their lives.
I'm Dr. Kimberly Beam Holmes. After a decade transforming marriages at Marriage Helper, I've realized that the greatest tragedy isn't a failed relationship; it's the person who stays stuck and never experiences the fullness of all God intended.
The Way You Show Up is for the high-achiever who is tired of "fine."
We're dismantling the average life to build an exceptional one—using the science of the PIES: Physical, Intellectual, Emotional, and Spiritual health.
If you want to save your marriage, go to Marriage Helper. If you want to master yourself and lead your legacy, stay here.
New episodes every Tuesday.
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🔗 Website: https://kimberlybeamholmes.com
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (01:28):
Today I'm talking to my friend and peer, Michael
Felker.
We are going to be diving into alot of different things,
including how we as people canbetter handle change in our
lives without pushing the peoplearound us away by our anxiety or
our fear or our anger.
(01:48):
We're going to be talking abouthow we can better understand
what's going on within us whenlife circumstances get crazy.
And we're even going to delveinto this topic of
self-differentiation, which is apsychological term to encompass
how we can stay a part of asystem, whether that be a family
or a group or a team, withoutlosing ourself to it, and also
(02:12):
without completely isolatingourselves from it.
It's really going to help usunderstand how we can keep from
letting other people's opinionsof us and what they want us to
do with our life completely runour lives.
It's really interesting.
I got a lot from it, and Ibelieve that you will too.
Let's dive in.
Michael, I first of all alwaysenjoy having conversations with
(02:32):
you in general.
So even more excited to do itfor everyone else to kind of
listen in on because I believethat I learned so much speaking
with you, and I just know thatthe audience will as well.
So thank you for being with metoday, Michael.
SPEAKER_00 (02:47):
Well, thank you for having me.
I also enjoy havingconversations with you.
And I love this topic.
I love anything that we talkabout, helping people move
forward, uh, get unstuck, andfind some hope.
So I'm excited.
SPEAKER_01 (03:00):
Yeah, I, man, moving forward and getting unstuck.
When you think about the people,I mean, and you've worked it as
like in a in different coachingcapacities in churches, with
people, with marriages, like onthe team at Marriage Helper.
What do you think overarching?
And I know I'm throwing thisquestion at you uh blind.
(03:21):
What do you think are the typesof things that keep people
stuck?
SPEAKER_00 (03:26):
That's that is a really great question.
Um, I I think first of all,people get stuck uh when they
when they get afraid.
And when you get afraid, you getstill.
Um I can remember one night Iwas working as a security guard
in a building.
It was two in the morning, walkin the building, and all of a
sudden the worst sound thatyou've ever imagined, and I just
(03:47):
froze.
I'd been trained to react, I'dbeen trained to help people, I'd
help people in car accidents,and I just froze.
And it was somebody in thebuilding uh training or uh
rehearsing with their bagpipes.
So I didn't expect I didn'texpect at two in the morning to
hear bagpipes, but I froze,right?
I didn't know what to do.
And so I think fear keeps usstuck.
(04:08):
Fear of the unknown, fear offailure, uh, fear of it just not
working out and gettingdisappointed again and again and
again.
And so fear would be one of thefirst factors.
The other thing I think thatgets people stuck is that they
can't see the vision forward.
They can't picture themselveswhere they want to be or the
(04:31):
steps to get there.
And so I would say those are thetwo big things: fear and uh a
lack of vision.
SPEAKER_01 (04:39):
How does someone overcome fear?
And specifically, there'sthere's challenges in their
life, there's obstacles thatthey're facing.
Um, you know, maybe with today,in today's world, the economy,
depending on who you listen to,going one way or another.
But the right, a lot of peopleare struggling financially.
So let's just say that there'speople where they feel really
(05:00):
challenged in the sense of like,I feel this need that I have to
provide, but there's all ofthese obstacles that I keep
running into and I'm scared, soI'm freezing.
I'm scared because so I'm frozenand I'm like not going maybe
after the thing I want to do.
Maybe I want to change jobs.
Maybe I want to like see um,like I see how things could be
different, but there's just somuch external pressure or fear
(05:23):
that it's keeping me stuck.
Uh, I don't even remember how Istarted that whole question, but
like, how how can people beginto not let fear control the next
thing they do?
SPEAKER_00 (05:37):
Right.
Okay.
So I would say then the firstthing you need to do is name
what is what you're afraid of.
Name the anxiety.
And so this conversation betweenyou and I started because I had
spoken at Vivo with uh the bookA Failure of Nerve by Edwin
Freeman.
And he was a rabbi, he was acoach, a consultant, those type
(05:57):
of things.
And he uses the phrase anxietyas really just emotional
processes that are swirlingaround us.
And so being able to name those,name what's going on inside of
you, and then also being able toname what's happening uh outside
of you as well.
And so if there is emotionalforces, factors that are keeping
(06:18):
you stuck, um, then it that'sgonna create reactivity, right?
So you're not gonna have the, ifyou're stuck and you've got all
this anxiety coming at you,you're not gonna be able to
respond well.
You're just gonna react in themoment.
Um, or paralysis uh ordysfunction, where you just
almost maybe to the point whereyou said there that it's
(06:38):
chronically keeping you frommoving forward.
That's something that you reallyneed to address and and to uh to
to name.
And really there's there's twotypes of anxiety too.
There's acute anxiety, and thenthere's chronic anxiety.
And I've used this examplebefore.
Uh I have a light bar on myJeep, and I like to listen to my
(06:59):
music really loud, and I'mdriving down the highway at more
than the speed limit.
Here in Texas, it's 75, so maybesome north of that.
And all of a sudden, again, justa huge sound happens, and I look
and my light bar is hanging onthe side of the Jeep.
It had flown off and was bangingthe side of the Jeep.
(07:21):
So in that moment, acuteanxiety, I have to address this
immediately.
So I'll pull over on the side ofthe road, put the light bar
back, take a couple of breaths,go, move forward.
Chronic anxiety is when you knowthat all these things are
happening and you just don'taddress them over time and they
compound over and over and overagain.
(07:41):
And I think that's really wherethe rubber meets the road.
Can we address anxiety when it'sin the moment, when it's
actually happening, so that itdoesn't turn over into chronic
anxiety where bills begin topile up, relationships begin to
go to the wayside.
You don't make those courageoussteps to get a new job.
(08:04):
You just allow the frustrationand the pain and the anger and
all resentment build up for youin that.
So you've got to address theanxiety, and it's better to
address it on the front end thanit is down on down the road.
SPEAKER_01 (08:20):
Michael, as you say that, there's a part of me
that's like, that makes so muchsense because yes, like if if
you don't do something about theanxiety, then it will just
continue to manifest itself inyour mind.
And then there's this other partof me, which you know that I've
struggled with anxiety years,like decades, decades.
Um, and then there's part of methat's like, but some of my
(08:42):
anxiety is un like un, I want tosay unhinged, unlike it's not
based in things that I that aremaybe reality or based in things
that I even have control over orlike could address, right?
How do you know when it's ananxiety that you should do
(09:03):
something about versus somethingyou need to let go of in some
way, like replace the thoughtand not entertain it?
SPEAKER_00 (09:11):
Yeah.
Right.
So I I would say again, as youfor me, if I get into a
depressive state, if if thingsare kind of, you know,
melancholy or whatever, I canusually work my way to uh I'm
sorry, I I I usually that's justit kind of comes over me.
If it's an anxiety, if it's a arumination, if it's a negative
(09:34):
thought, if it's something thatI'm constantly worrying about,
if I take the time to name it,take a step back, I can work my
way to where that's reallycoming from.
And so um I I would say the thebest thing that you can do is to
take some of that, when thatanxiety is coming on, try to
address it immediately and beginto ask yourself, is this real?
(10:00):
Um, ask yourself, where is thiscoming from?
Um, ask yourself, is thissomething that I've dealt with
before?
And I know how to deal withthis, and this just keeps
popping up.
Um, I really like Brent BreneBrown's question that she puts
forth is what is the story I'mtelling myself?
SPEAKER_02 (10:16):
Oh, I love that.
SPEAKER_00 (10:17):
And so in those moments where you run into
somebody at the grocery store,coworker, a friend, somebody,
and that interaction doesn't goexactly how you thought it
would.
Maybe there was something alittle weird.
And so you begin to go, oh,they're mad at me.
Yes, they're uh they'refrustrated.
Oh, I didn't I didn't say happybirthday to them.
(10:37):
It was yesterday, I forgot.
You know, so and then we startplaying those stories in our
mind, okay.
Well, what's the story I'mtelling myself?
The story I'm telling myself isthey're mad at me because of
this.
Well, how do you know that?
Is that true?
And really chase that down tookay, what what really is true
or or what what do you know forcertain?
(10:58):
And then put aside what youdon't know.
You know, in in church work,I'll I'll tell you oftentimes
people will come up in you andsay, so-and-so is really upset
with um the change that wasmade.
Well, I just talked toso-and-so, and they didn't give
me any in in uh idea that theywere upset with me.
(11:19):
So I'm gonna treat so-and-sobecause I don't know the, I
don't know the whole story.
Until so-and-so tells me, I'mgoing to react in the way that
they're the energy that they'regiving me.
And so be that non-anxiouspresence when there might be
some things swirling around.
SPEAKER_01 (11:36):
Man, that can be, that can be hard.
Uh Michael, you may, you maykill me for what I'm about to
say.
But I keep thinking, as we'retalking about like anxiety, I
keep thinking about when you andI were in Kenya last year.
And and that's like my shirt,right?
Tavasamu, smile, Swahili.
(11:58):
Uh, when we were in Kenya and wewent to into the Kybera slums
and we went to go visit somewidows.
And there was a time you and Iwere sitting next to each other
on a couch.
Do you remember this?
This is a little bit more.
SPEAKER_00 (12:09):
Oh, oh yeah, I remember it exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (12:11):
Okay.
And so you and I are sittingthere, and y'all, like, I we
can't, I don't know how we couldaccurately describe the the the
living situations that thesewomen live in, which just shows
their strength and like the kindof the kind of people that they
are.
It's it is, you would never findanything like this anywhere in
America.
(12:31):
Um, and there was a sweet womanwho brought us into her house,
and we were sitting on hercouch, and uh, it was like three
of us on this tiny on this tinycouch, and I started getting
really un, like my back startedhurting because the couch was
uneven, and so I was sittingweird and like I already have
back issues.
And so I kept moving around.
(12:52):
And it wasn't until we got backto the place, but Michael was
sitting right next to me, and hedo you want to take the story
from the Yeah?
SPEAKER_00 (13:00):
Well, and not just that, you were you were
shifting, and I thought, Ithought what I had seen was a
flea.
SPEAKER_02 (13:06):
That's right.
SPEAKER_00 (13:06):
And and uh, and so she starts shifting, and then
Kimberly um abruptly gets up andwalks, like stands up and walks
towards the door.
And so now I'm starting to itch,and I'm starting to think about
what other things I might betaking back with us.
And um, I am just trying to keepa straight face, but everything
(13:27):
inside of me, just like what youtalked about, these were
automatic responses.
They weren't things that I wasmaking happen or whatever.
Right.
But as my mind continued torace, as the emotional uh
processes began to boil like acauldron, 100% right, I began to
lose it.
And so once we finally gotoutside, I said, Hey, what was
that about?
(13:48):
It's part of the big thing.
You were like, You were like,Oh, it's my bat.
And so immediately then I'mlike, oh, okay, that now start
working back.
I'm not, there are no, I didn'tsee any fleas.
I just just begin to kind ofwork your way back with that.
But once I knew part of thestory, I was able to change my
mindset.
(14:09):
And that changed my mentalstate, my emotional state, my
physical state, changedeverything.
SPEAKER_01 (14:15):
And it was, and I just I remember it so well
because when you said it to me,I felt like I physically
understood what you experiencedbecause that's happened to me
not right then in that moment,but like in other situations
where for me, I pick up on thesethings and I have written this
story where it's like, this iswhat's happening, but I have
(14:37):
missed like, but it's not, it'snot what's happening when we can
view it from another way.
So I was just like, oh, I knowhow, like, I know how that
feels.
I know 100%.
100%.
Um, I want Michael, one of thethings when you did, like you,
so you came and you did a Devo,our team does one every Tuesday,
just for the listeners to know.
(14:58):
And Michael presents prettyoften because he's good and we
want him to.
So he so in the most recent onethat he did um is when he
started talking about this, likethe need to be non-anxious, the
need, uh like what is anxiety?
SPEAKER_00 (15:12):
And like he said before, anxiety is it is a
pervasive emotional force in asystem.
And so it creates reactivity,it's paralyzed creates
paralysis, and it can causedysfunction.
SPEAKER_01 (15:24):
And it's contagious.
SPEAKER_00 (15:25):
So it's emotional processes.
Oh, yeah, it's definitelycontagious.
SPEAKER_01 (15:28):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (15:29):
Again, you're you're whatever was going on, that
anxiety is you, you're back,standing up, boiled over into my
anxiety.
SPEAKER_01 (15:36):
So let's but let's also be real.
So talking about so talk aboutit being contagious.
So then we get back that thatnight.
And I remember like all of us atthat point were kind of like,
maybe we should shower.
Um, and I remember getting in myshower, and all of a sudden I
see these jumping small bugs allin my shower.
And that was real.
(15:56):
And I and I was like, now I'mjust so aware, right?
Like now that I'm aware thatthis other thing happened and
that anxiety can be, and ofcourse, I'm not blaming hyper
awareness.
SPEAKER_00 (16:07):
Oh, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (16:07):
Well, like it creates this hyper-awareness.
And so when we are anxious aboutcertain things, we bring that
home.
We bring that into leadership,we bring it to church, we bring
it to our teams, we bring itinto our friendships.
And it's hard to stay calm wheneveryone else around you is is
(16:28):
anxious, which is why the flipside of that being the
non-anxious presence is soimportant.
SPEAKER_02 (16:34):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (16:35):
The other thing I love that you talked about was
there were these fivecharacteristics of chronic
anxiety.
So reactivity, hurting, blaming,quick fix mentality, lack of
leadership.
Do you want to walk us throughjust quick examples of what each
of those are or how they couldshow?
SPEAKER_00 (16:52):
Right, give me one.
SPEAKER_01 (16:53):
Uh okay, hurting.
Hurting.
SPEAKER_00 (17:01):
It's really twofold.
One, it's when the anxiety is souh acute or uh chronic in a
system to where the leader orwhere somebody is trying to get
everybody in circle the wagons,if you will.
They're trying to get everybodyon their own uh page.
And so it can be manipulative inthat you're wanting the whole
team to move in your direction.
(17:22):
And so you're you're pushingthem in that way, or it could be
those side conversations ofwhere you're trying to find out
who's on your side, who thinksthe same way you are, who or who
can you get on your side, whocan you make anxious so that
they can see you've got thesolution, or you know, that you
don't feel so alone anymore thatI don't like this this change
(17:43):
that's happening.
And so you can begin to herd inthat way.
SPEAKER_01 (17:47):
Which is a type of, would you say that's a type of
gossip?
SPEAKER_00 (17:51):
Oh, yeah, it's very much a gossip.
In in church world, we call itlike the parking lot
conversations.
It's the meeting after themeeting where everybody goes out
to the parking lot and talks totheir constituents or the people
that they uh connect with.
Um in families, right?
A spouse can pull the kids asideand speak poorly about the other
uh or what what's happening withthe other spouse, what they're
(18:13):
doing.
Uh did you see what dad's doingthat or whatever?
So um we can see that in in infamilies as well.
It is a form of gossip.
SPEAKER_01 (18:22):
Yeah.
And you know, the thing that I Iloved when you brought this up.
And the thing that I guess itkind of signaled or reminded me
of um is it allows, well, let melet me say it this way that
several, several years ago,probably six years ago, that was
there was someone who was in aleadership position at um at
Marriage Helper.
(18:42):
And they would hold their teammeetings, but then after the
team meeting, they wouldentertain one-on-one phone calls
of people who didn't agree withcertain things that happened in
the meeting.
And so, of course, what happenedwas they never dealt with
anything head-on as a group.
And so then there were likethese silos of conversation.
(19:04):
People like it just wasn'thealthy.
It was, it was super unhealthy,and you they never got to the
core of an issue as a team.
It prevented them to be like acohesive, strong team that was
able to really handle difficultsituations.
There was just too much drama,there was too much drama in all
of it.
And that was a form of hurting,whether it be from the person
(19:25):
who was leading those meetingsgoing to people and saying,
like, what did you think aboutthis?
What did you think about that,or the people on the team coming
to the leader and having thoseside conversations.
And so what it makes me think ofis when that happens, you really
like drastically inhibit theability for that function, that
(19:45):
system, that family, that team,that friend group, whatever it
is, that church, to actuallyever be strong.
Because if you can't addressconflict with each other
together and work through it andultimately get through to the
other side of that, not becauseyou all agree, but because at
least you've like fought throughthat storm and you got to the
(20:05):
other side, you're never gonnabe able to endure the fight that
comes from the outside in, whichyou're inevitably gonna have in
whatever kind of system it is.
SPEAKER_00 (20:16):
Right.
Lynciani in the fivedysfunctions of leadership, the
first dysfunction is a lack oftrust.
And beyond that, the nextdysfunction is a lack of
conflict.
Because if you can't trust oneanother, if you can't speak
freely with one another, ifyou're afraid that your teammate
or your spouse or uh your leaderis out to get you, or uh you
(20:40):
can't trust them with your fullthoughts, right?
You can't be vulnerable andreal.
We're not talking about likeemotionally dumping on people,
but especially in the workplace.
But if you can't do that, thenyou're never gonna be able to
have good conflict.
You're never gonna be able towork through even the smallest
issue if you have no trust.
(21:01):
And that hurting, those type ofthings break trust because
you're ultimately triangulatingbetween, you know, as a leader,
instead of having Joe talk toSusie, right?
You're talking to Susie, you'retalking to Joe, and they're
never resolving their issues.
And so you're carrying that,you're carrying the anxiety that
(21:23):
the two of them have brought toyou.
You know, the the the don'tthese are not my clowns, right?
This is not this is not mycircus, this is not my clowns.
You've never allowed them todeal with their clowns.
You're you're you're acting likea an overarching helicopter
parent that you're just tryingto keep the peace and it's not
(21:43):
keeping the peace.
SPEAKER_01 (21:45):
Okay.
I love that we've landed here.
So here's here's here's whathappens, right?
And I want to hear your I wantto hear your thoughts about
this.
And we could we can think aboutthis in terms of a leader with
two people on their team or aparent with two kids, okay?
Because both both situationshappen.
So you have two people, theyaren't getting along.
(22:06):
As a leader, as a mom, as a dad,whatever, the ideal situation is
okay, you two figure this out.
Like you need to figure this outamongst yourselves.
But there will inevitably come apoint where one of them will
say, but you're the leader.
You're the one who's supposed todo something about this.
You're at what point do you stepin as a leader, as a mom, as a
(22:31):
dad?
And at what point do you justcontinue to force the two of
them to work it out so that youwon't always have to be the one
to come in and help them work itout?
SPEAKER_00 (22:41):
Yeah.
Wow.
Um, man.
So, and of course, some of thatcomes with maturity, your own
maturity.
That's the the name of the bookis a failure of nerve.
And what fill what Friedman issaying is problems within
organizations, within familiesare often the result of a leader
not having enough nerve to dothe right thing.
(23:03):
And so that's why you've got towork through your own maturity,
deal with your own anxiety.
And so I, you know, I for formost of my life, I think I have
been a bit of a um oh, the pathof least resistance, right?
I I want to uh I did a conflictresolution uh uh masterwork,
some classes with that, and I itcame back with comparom that my
(23:27):
leadership stopped.
Of dealing with conflict iscompromise.
And at first I was like, ugh,that's gross of compromise.
But then I realized, okay, I'mputting a moral judgment on
that.
And so for me, compromise isreally that path of least
resistance.
How can we get these people towork together?
And so you have to acknowledgethat there is a time when to
(23:48):
step in, but you're not holdinghand holding.
What can you do to teach themhow to work together?
It's not the old meme whereyou've got two kids fighting and
the parent put them in onet-shirt together and this is my
get-along shirt.
Um it's not that, but it may bethat you have to step in and
(24:09):
mediate a compromise betweenthem, that you've got to walk
both of them through.
It also may be to at the verybeginning to recognize um
somebody's coming to you aboutsomebody else, just nipping it
in the bud immediately.
Have you talked to that personabout this?
SPEAKER_02 (24:27):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (24:27):
And then saying, I won't entertain any of
conversations until you tell methat you've talked to them.
Like just that's that's themature thing to do.
That's the leadership thing todo.
That's what the Bible tells usto do, right?
Go to that person first.
SPEAKER_01 (24:43):
Yeah, 100%.
And you know, it's it'ssometimes hard.
Like when people come to me andsay things like that, and I'm
like, have you gone to talk tothat person?
It's holding that line.
You need to go talk to thatperson.
Because part of me, like theinternal part of me is like, oh,
I don't want them to think Idon't care or that I'm pushing
them away.
But there's a way to do it insuch a way where it's like, I
(25:05):
hear you, but I know the bestway that this is gonna be
handled is by you talkingdirectly to that person.
SPEAKER_00 (25:10):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (25:11):
Um, and like holding that line.
SPEAKER_00 (25:14):
Well, you I mean, you mentioned those some of
those emotional processes,right?
You want you want the personthat's coming to you.
You you're worried that they'regoing to um think you don't
care, or you're gonna say, oh,they they don't think that this
uh my boss doesn't think this isa big enough deal, or they blew
me off, or and then you startmaking store, what are they
gonna tell other people?
And those are those emotionalprocesses that we've got to as
(25:37):
leaders address immediately andthen model that for our people
and then step in when we haveto.
SPEAKER_01 (25:46):
Yeah, I love that.
I think this goes right in linewith the the next thing I wanted
to be sure to speak with youabout, which is yes, so when a
person, I mean, I'll just I'lljust say it for me.
When I allow myself to care, uh,I'm gonna say it how it's gonna
come out, and then we'll fix it.
When I allow myself to care moreabout what the people in the
(26:08):
system are gonna think of me,whether that be work, whether
that be friends, whether it bewhatever home, um, then the
right thing to do, that's wherelines begin to get blurry.
Or um, like in even further, wecan keep going.
Like when those people I feellike now have expectations of
me.
And now I'm trying to meet theirexpectations instead of having
(26:31):
my own vision, my own way ofgoing.
This is where, this is wherethings can get kind of nasty.
I think this is where burnoutcan happen to a person
individually.
But when you talked about this,you talked about it being
self-differentiation.
So, what isself-differentiation?
SPEAKER_00 (26:50):
All right.
So, self-differentiation is theability to divine, to define
one's own individual goals andvalues while staying connected
to others in a meaningful way.
So it means being your ownperson, but not to the extent
that you're some stoic monk upin the mountains that you just
don't care about the people thatare just so anxious about life.
(27:12):
If you know who you are, youknow your mission and your
goals, your purpose, and thenyou can accept the that other
people have different agendas,that other people have different
goals, that other people uh aremaybe getting in the way of
their own selves and their owngoals.
And so it's really being a yourown person while still being
(27:34):
connected.
And I think the best examplethat we see of this is Jesus
Christ.
Um, when you think about thecrowds that are coming to him,
right?
The crowds are just pressing in.
I'm a big fan of Jesus Christsuperstar, and there there is a
scene where everybody is justcrushing in on Jesus, and the
music just makes it all thatmuch more, you know, gives you
(27:54):
the willies as it's justcrushing in.
The crowds are coming in onJesus, and what does he do?
He says, We're gonna leaveministry from here and we're
gonna go someplace else.
Or he gets up and goes up to themountaintop, is praying,
communing with the Father.
The disciples say, Jesus,everybody's looking for you.
Great, we're gonna go do this.
Or I'm gonna go to the other,you know, I'll meet y'all on the
(28:17):
other side of the lake.
No, everybody was trying to tellJesus what who he was, what his
mission was supposed to be.
Everybody else was telling himwhat he needed to do and when he
needed to do it.
And Jesus wasself-differentiation,
self-differentiated.
He knew who he was, he knew whathis mission is, and he didn't
allow any of those otheremotional processes or people or
(28:40):
systems to get in the way ofthat.
So just be like Jesus.
When the storms are going, gowhen the storms are when the
storms are around you, just gotake a nap.
SPEAKER_01 (28:51):
You know, there's a lot of wisdom in that, but uh,
you know, it's so true.
And then the uh rebellious isn'tthe right word, but the like
questioning, I guess questioner,the questioner part of me is
like, but he's also God's sonand it knew he was so sure of
(29:13):
exactly what his mission was,right?
And so thinking about people, Iknow this has happened to me,
maybe it happened to you growingup.
Like your parents had an opinionof what they wanted you to do,
what they wanted who they whothey wanted you to be, what kind
of career they wanted you tohave.
Um, like visions, friends havethat, like people say things.
(29:35):
And so, how can someone discern,like, so I want to get more into
self-differentiationspecifically in a minute, but
the first part of this was thatyou know you can be your own
person, you can be steady andsteadfast without being isolated
from the people around you, butalso without being consumed by
the people around you.
So where does discernment comein to this?
(30:00):
Where does like uh you get whatI'm trying to ask?
Like I could also be superselfish and stubborn and have
like this really steadfastopinion of what I should do and
what I in the person I want tobe, but I could be a complete
jerk.
You know what I mean?
So how do I know?
(30:20):
And so maybe I should listen tosome people.
I guess I'm still not beingconsumed by them, but help me
help me process this.
SPEAKER_00 (30:27):
I think you used a good word there.
There's a difference in stayingconnected to those people and
being consumed by them, or inyour own pursuit of your vision,
consuming them.
So I like that word consume inthat.
So yeah, I think which if you'reif you are dead set and and
heading towards your vision andnot listening to anybody, yeah,
(30:48):
you're gonna be a jerk, butthat's not gonna keep you
connected to the other people.
So it's being able to say, okay,that is your opinion.
Maybe it's being able to say, II take that criticism or I take
that instruction direction, Itake that for what it's worth.
And if it if it serves me, thenuh I need to be able to have be
(31:10):
humbly hum uh have enoughhumility to listen to what
they're saying, whether it'scriticism or whether it's like I
said, instruction, direction.
Um, or and so it's it's beingstaying connected.
And so, yeah, not being a jerk,not being, like I said, a monk
where you're just cut off fromeverybody.
Um, you know, not again again,to your point, Jesus did know he
(31:32):
was the son of God and he kneweverything, but he didn't lord
that over.
SPEAKER_01 (31:36):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (31:37):
He stayed connected with those people.
He may have said, I can't healat this time, I can't do exactly
what you're asking me to doright now.
You may not understand whatyou're saying.
How many of us, how many of ushave listened to people who have
given us some sort of an opinionabout our lives?
Their lives aren't their livesaren't put together.
SPEAKER_02 (31:55):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (31:56):
And so you just take that with us.
Well, I appreciate that.
One day you'll be able to maybesee a perspective that you don't
right now, that type of thing.
SPEAKER_01 (32:03):
Yeah.
That's really good.
You you told this story in Devothat I think really put into, I
think it made this concept ofself-differentiation very real
and understandable.
SPEAKER_00 (32:19):
So it's from another Friedman book called Uh
Freedman's Fables.
And there are two of thesefables that I absolutely love.
And I I shared one of them, mymy favorite one, which is called
The Bridge.
And it's about a man who, forhis entire life, has tried to
figure out who he is and what hewants to do out of life, right?
What is his purpose?
(32:39):
And then he discovers it and herealizes he has to act on that
now.
He has to begin moving forwardtowards that, and he has to take
a journey to get there, but ithas to happen now.
He can't put it off any longer.
And so he sets out on thisjourney.
And as he gets to this bridge onthe other side of the bridge,
there's somebody else walkingtowards him.
And this person has a rope tiedaround their waist.
(33:00):
And as our friend, as our hero,is going across the bridge, this
man meets him, hands him the uhend of the rope, and says, Now
don't forget to hold on tight.
And the man with the rope jumpsoff the side of the bridge.
And so it leaves our heroholding on to this man on the
side of the bridge.
There's a raging river downbelow, and this man has to
(33:20):
decide what is he going to do?
This he doesn't know thisperson.
It's a stranger.
He's got a journey to take.
He's on the way of trying to uhto become his best self, to
become the best version ofhimself that he wants to be.
And the man at the end of therope just says, I'm your
responsibility now.
And the man holding the rope is,I don't even know you.
(33:41):
How can you be myresponsibility?
And the man at dangling at theend of the rope is just hanging
there.
And he expects our hero to takecare of him, to make sure that
he doesn't fall.
And so our man begins tonegotiate with him, says, Hey, I
can pull you back up.
And the man says, I have nointerest in being pulled uh or
helping to pull myself up.
(34:02):
It's all on you.
You're I'm your responsibility.
And so the man's trying tofigure out what is he gonna do.
And ultimately he says, hedecides to say to the man at the
end of the rope, look, I can'ttake responsibility for your
life.
I can only take responsibilityfor mine.
You can only take responsibilityfor you.
So I'm gonna give you one lastchance.
If you want to, if you want totake responsibility, if for me
(34:26):
to continue in this relationshipthat we have right now, you're
gonna have to help begin pullyourself up.
And if you don't, then I'm gonnagive your life, your
responsibility for your lifeback to you.
And he doesn't feel the man doanything at the end of the rope.
And ultimately our hero, ourfriend lets go of the rope.
(34:46):
And that's the end of theparable, end of the story.
And so you have to begin tothink, who are you in this, in
this parable?
Uh are you the man that somebodyhas given responsibility of
their life over to you, right?
Whether it is an adult childthat is living in your house and
has been for way too long?
Is it somebody at work that isnot pulling their own weight and
(35:09):
you swoop in and save them everysingle time because of the
emotional processes that aregoing on?
Is it a spouse that you keepmaking excuses for?
Um, and sometimes when I'vetalked to people who may be
dealing with recovery or dealingwith some people that, you know,
Kimberly, that just can't getout of their own way, is is it
(35:30):
your is it you that's also onthe other side?
Is it that version of you thatyou don't want to be anymore,
that one that keeps you stuckand keeps you from hanging, uh
keeps you from moving forward,is that the person that you need
to let the rope go?
So it there's a that's what Ilove about parables.
You can hear them and you canread them in different ways, see
(35:51):
yourself in different parts.
Um, but that's why I thinkthey're so powerful.
SPEAKER_01 (35:55):
Why was that one your favorite?
SPEAKER_00 (35:59):
I think because when I when I discovered Freedmen, I
was in my 20s in ministry.
And I had my biggest frustrationsometimes is having to handhold
the people that you shouldn'thave to handhold.
It's the people that have beenin church work or leadership for
(36:20):
20-something years and they'venot really moved forward.
And sometimes they can be thevictim, sometimes they can be
the one that is holding theentire system back or
organization back because it'swe want things like it used to
be, and they can't let go ofthat type of thing.
And so I realized maybe maybenot so dramatic that I'm gonna
(36:41):
throw them off a bridge, right?
But the idea that I maybe I'mpulling and pulling and pulling,
they're not budging.
I'm tired of pulling, right?
I I have to take responsibilityfor myself.
And so, in some ways, when Ifound Freeman, when I found this
fable, I was at a point where Iwas realizing I need to let go
of a lot of ropes.
(37:01):
Um, I'm the I'm the one pullingand things aren't uh or I'm I'm
concerned, I'm more concernedabout my end of the rope, that's
not even my rope, than they are.
SPEAKER_01 (37:12):
Yeah.
That's what I loved about it.
It it was it's such a clearclear, I'm gonna use the word
clear, it's such a clear pictureof this self-differentiation
concept of am I trying to domore work for another person
than they are willing to do forthemselves?
Or am I trying to do more workfor a system or for a team or
(37:35):
for whatever, like, or for afamily?
Am I trying to so much that itis engrossing my like
everything?
I'm giving everything I have forit, but I am missing my purpose
in life along the way.
Or and it's not just about thethings that are gonna make me
happy, but like the things thatmaybe I am called to focus on
and to do, but I've becomeengrossed into this and to try
(37:58):
and make to make this otherperson or system work.
Yeah.
This one's hard for people.
SPEAKER_00 (38:04):
Yeah.
Well, you used engrossed.
I think there's also a word likeenmeshed.
We can get so enmeshed in that.
Um and and again, I to yourpoint, forget who we really are.
Um I uh I would say for me, inif we go back to ministry, uh
preaching is a tool in my toolbelt.
(38:26):
But I wanted to develop leadersand disciples, develop mature
Christians, that type of thing.
So I used preaching, but thatwasn't my identity.
And so if I spent so much time,you know, if somebody told me,
hey, Michael, you know, I youcould do a 60-hour course on
preaching, maybe, maybe I wouldtake it, maybe it would move the
(38:47):
needle a little further.
Um, but I'm gonna do better whenI'm focusing more on leadership
development, my own emotionalcapacity, my own mental uh
resilience.
That's how I'm gonna help peopleby doing that.
And so you can get so caught upin other people's opinions of
what you need to be doing andand who you need to be in a
particular role.
(39:07):
Um, but you've got to discern,take time to have that sense of
who you really are.
What are your beliefs, yourvalues?
What what are you what do youput on this earth to do?
Um, I think it was Steve Jobsused the the term go make a dent
in the world.
What's your dent look like?
It's it's shaped like you, andit's shaped by your goals and
values and tools and resources.
SPEAKER_01 (39:29):
And have the nerve to do it.
SPEAKER_00 (39:31):
Have the nerve to do it.
SPEAKER_01 (39:34):
That shook me when you said it a minute ago.
The the failures that happen insystems are because of someone,
like the leader of it theirtheir failure to do the right or
the hard thing.
And sometimes that system is us,like our own life and future.
A lot of people will tell uswhat to do or what they want us
(39:57):
to do or their expectations ofus.
Uh, but are we gonna have theself-differentiation to choose
ours while also being able tohold that tension, to stay
connected to the other person.
Now, in the fable, they droppedthe rope.
SPEAKER_00 (40:12):
Right, right.
I don't, you know, they didn'tnecessarily but in in what he
did is he said, I'm going togive my your life back over to
you.
I'm not responsible for you.
You have to take responsibilityfor yourself.
SPEAKER_01 (40:25):
Yeah.
I love that.
SPEAKER_00 (40:28):
Super powerful.
And that's hard.
That's hard because we don'twant people to hurt themselves.
We want people to to succeed.
And sometimes they're their ownworst enemies.
They aren't, they aren't willingto do anything.
And we're we're only going to beable to pull them so far.
And the more we focused on them,the less we can focus on the
other people that are actuallywanting help, leaning into help,
(40:51):
change, maturity, all of that.
Right.
That that person can take all ofour energy and then burn us out.
SPEAKER_01 (40:57):
Yeah, 100%.
SPEAKER_00 (41:00):
I heard a statistic one time people pastors leave
churches because of six people.
I've seen that, I've seen thatplay out.
I don't know if that's a truestat, but I've seen it so
because because of, and and itcould be for anything, right?
It could be that that personthat constantly needs help and
constantly needs benevolence andis unwilling to change their
(41:22):
behavior, unwilling to get ajob, unwilling to move forward.
And that can burn somebody out.
SPEAKER_01 (41:27):
Yeah.
Constantly negative.
SPEAKER_00 (41:29):
Constantly negative people.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (41:32):
I think, yeah, I can see, I can see that one being
one of the big ones.
I mean, the thing is, I could Ibelieve it.
It could be a church of probably12,000 people and six people
could drive, could drive apastor away if it's the if it's
the right or the you know thewrong six people in this case.
Yeah.
Michael, what is a final pieceof wisdom that you would want to
(41:54):
leave the audience with aroundthis topic?
SPEAKER_00 (41:58):
I would encourage you to do the hard work to
discover who you are and who whoyou're put on this earth to be.
And then I would take some timeto understand what are those
pressure points or anxiousemotional processes that keep
you from um staying to thatmission, staying to the mission
(42:21):
of who you are or what it isthat you're working towards, so
that you can identify them andyou can begin to recognize them
when they happen.
Uh for me, I hate those um typeof uh the emotional things of
and Kimberly, you and I'vetalked about this too.
Hey, can we have a meetingtomorrow?
And nobody tells you what themeeting's about.
Or yeah, yeah.
(42:44):
I always ask um, so now I'velearned that that's a trigger
for me.
And so I always ask, yeah, isthere anything I can prepare
for?
Is there anything that I need tobring with me?
And so that that stops thatanxiety from spiraling out of
control in the moment and askingthem, you know, for you know,
context or some things likethat.
So identifying what are thoseemotional processes that you
(43:07):
keep um participating in thatare keeping you stuck, keeping
you fearful, keeping you frommoving forward, and then develop
a plan, figure out a plan forhow to overcome those.
SPEAKER_01 (43:19):
Man, I love it.
And you're such the real dealtoo, Michael.
You're always learning,investing in bettering yourself,
telling us about like somethingyou've learned, something you've
read, something you've done.
You are just always, like yousaid before, like increasing
your emotional capacity as aleader.
I think you do a brilliant jobat that, which is why you're
(43:41):
trusted and called on to like toinvest in other leaders and
speak to people and things likethat, because you do the hard
work.
SPEAKER_00 (43:50):
I appreciate that.
Thank you.
Because I didn't do the hardwork for a long time.
SPEAKER_01 (43:55):
You I learned my lesson.
You learned your lesson.
Well, you do it now.
Loved talking to you, Michael.
Thank you so much.
SPEAKER_00 (44:02):
Thank you for the opportunity, Kimberly.
SPEAKER_01 (44:06):
Okay, y'all.
So there are things that get usstuck when we are afraid, when
we are venturing into theunknown, when we are scared of
failure.
And when we are scared, when weare stuck, that anxiety can lead
us to do things that justultimately aren't healthy and
ultimately don't help make ushappy long term.
(44:27):
We can end up making otherpeople in our lives anxious.
We can try and get them on ourside so they see things our way
and it just perpetuates thisanxious cycle.
The bottom line is how can webetter increase our emotional
capacity because ultimatelythat's going to change the way
we show up and we are gonna showup as a non-anxious presence.
(44:47):
I remember when I was goingthrough my MFT program, marriage
and family therapy program backin my master's days.
And one of the first things thatthey taught us as budding
marriage and family therapistswas be the non-anxious presence.
In fact, that was kind of theonly thing I remember taking
into my first counselingsessions that I would run with
(45:10):
people and with couples.
Be the non-anxious presence.
That's like the big thing thatthey just wanted us to remember.
Therefore, it must be important.
Be the non anxious presence.
Don't allow your emotions toconsume you.
Be able to process them and showup in a way that allows other
people.
People to be and feel safe.
My other key takeaway, thesecond one of my three, is when
(45:35):
he said that failures ofsystems, failures of businesses,
failures of families, and manytimes failures of relationships.
Many times it's because oneperson in it didn't have the
nerve to do the right or thehard thing.
Man, I think back to so manytimes in my life, even
friendships from my past, that Igot frustrated with that person,
(45:59):
but I didn't know how to talk tothem about it.
I didn't have the nerve.
I didn't have maybe the courageor the bravery to say some
things that maybe would havebeen hard, but ultimately could
have possibly saved thefriendship or saved the
relationship.
I think about it in many areasof my life.
And so I would encourage you tothink: is there anywhere in your
(46:20):
life where you have a failure ofnerve?
You just are avoiding the hardconversation.
You're avoiding telling theperson how they've been making
you feel.
You're avoiding speaking up whenyou know something is going on
that shouldn't be happening.
It's a failure of nerve.
What would it look like if youdid the right thing, the hard
(46:43):
thing, and how would that changethe future of what's going to
happen?
Finally, I love the fable thatMichael told us about.
I've seen myself as the personholding the rope and as the
person on the rope, maybe evensometimes as the rope itself,
trying to be that between twopeople.
(47:03):
Where did you see yourself?
Because I know you did.
I shared this same fable in aclass that I taught, and every
person pretty much said, Oh mygosh, I see myself in that.
Maybe you see yourself as theperson who's been depending on
everyone else, blaming everyoneelse.
Maybe you've been stuck in avictim mindset.
(47:24):
What does it look like for youto start pulling yourself up the
rope and showing the people inyour life that you are
appreciative of how they've beenholding it for you?
And what does it look like ifyou're the one holding the rope
and there's someone or somethingin your life that you feel like
is just taking advantage of you?
(47:46):
Maybe you're enabling thatbehavior because you're just
continuing to hold the rope andletting your life pass you by
while someone else isn'tactually doing anything that's
gonna lead them to come back up.
What are you allowing time topass for?
Now, I do have to say this.
(48:07):
I shared this fable with myhusband when Michael told us
about it the first time.
And I was processing with himhow it was resonating with me at
that moment.
And my husband said, and in thatmoment, I said, like in as I was
processing it, I said right now,in this instance, I see myself
as the person holding the rope.
(48:27):
But this other thing or personbeing the one on the end of the
rope, and I just feel like I'mready to let go.
And my husband said, Kimberly,but what if the person on the
end of the rope wants to comeup, but they're just really
unhealthy and they're really outof shape and they're trying, but
(48:47):
it's slow.
You don't want to let go of therope too soon.
If the person on the other endis trying their best to start
coming back up, I can't answerthese things for you.
More than anything, I think it'sa good thing for you to think
about and think through as youthink through your life right
(49:09):
now, how you're being impacted,and the way that you're showing
up.
Until next week.
Remember to stay strong.
Today I'm talking to my friend and peer, Michael
Felker.
We are going to be diving into alot of different things,
including how we as people canbetter handle change in our
lives without pushing the peoplearound us away by our anxiety or
our fear or our anger.
(01:48):
We're going to be talking abouthow we can better understand
what's going on within us whenlife circumstances get crazy.
And we're even going to delveinto this topic of
self-differentiation, which is apsychological term to encompass
how we can stay a part of asystem, whether that be a family
or a group or a team, withoutlosing ourself to it, and also
(02:12):
without completely isolatingourselves from it.
It's really going to help usunderstand how we can keep from
letting other people's opinionsof us and what they want us to
do with our life completely runour lives.
It's really interesting.
I got a lot from it, and Ibelieve that you will too.
Let's dive in.
Michael, I first of all alwaysenjoy having conversations with
(02:32):
you in general.
So even more excited to do itfor everyone else to kind of
listen in on because I believethat I learned so much speaking
with you, and I just know thatthe audience will as well.
So thank you for being with metoday, Michael.
SPEAKER_00 (02:47):
Well, thank you for having me.
I also enjoy havingconversations with you.
And I love this topic.
I love anything that we talkabout, helping people move
forward, uh, get unstuck, andfind some hope.
So I'm excited.
SPEAKER_01 (03:00):
Yeah, I, man, moving forward and getting unstuck.
When you think about the people,I mean, and you've worked it as
like in a in different coachingcapacities in churches, with
people, with marriages, like onthe team at Marriage Helper.
What do you think overarching?
And I know I'm throwing thisquestion at you uh blind.
(03:21):
What do you think are the typesof things that keep people
stuck?
SPEAKER_00 (03:26):
That's that is a really great question.
Um, I I think first of all,people get stuck uh when they
when they get afraid.
And when you get afraid, you getstill.
Um I can remember one night Iwas working as a security guard
in a building.
It was two in the morning, walkin the building, and all of a
sudden the worst sound thatyou've ever imagined, and I just
(03:47):
froze.
I'd been trained to react, I'dbeen trained to help people, I'd
help people in car accidents,and I just froze.
And it was somebody in thebuilding uh training or uh
rehearsing with their bagpipes.
So I didn't expect I didn'texpect at two in the morning to
hear bagpipes, but I froze,right?
I didn't know what to do.
And so I think fear keeps usstuck.
(04:08):
Fear of the unknown, fear offailure, uh, fear of it just not
working out and gettingdisappointed again and again and
again.
And so fear would be one of thefirst factors.
The other thing I think thatgets people stuck is that they
can't see the vision forward.
They can't picture themselveswhere they want to be or the
(04:31):
steps to get there.
And so I would say those are thetwo big things: fear and uh a
lack of vision.
SPEAKER_01 (04:39):
How does someone overcome fear?
And specifically, there'sthere's challenges in their
life, there's obstacles thatthey're facing.
Um, you know, maybe with today,in today's world, the economy,
depending on who you listen to,going one way or another.
But the right, a lot of peopleare struggling financially.
So let's just say that there'speople where they feel really
(05:00):
challenged in the sense of like,I feel this need that I have to
provide, but there's all ofthese obstacles that I keep
running into and I'm scared, soI'm freezing.
I'm scared because so I'm frozenand I'm like not going maybe
after the thing I want to do.
Maybe I want to change jobs.
Maybe I want to like see um,like I see how things could be
different, but there's just somuch external pressure or fear
(05:23):
that it's keeping me stuck.
Uh, I don't even remember how Istarted that whole question, but
like, how how can people beginto not let fear control the next
thing they do?
SPEAKER_00 (05:37):
Right.
Okay.
So I would say then the firstthing you need to do is name
what is what you're afraid of.
Name the anxiety.
And so this conversation betweenyou and I started because I had
spoken at Vivo with uh the bookA Failure of Nerve by Edwin
Freeman.
And he was a rabbi, he was acoach, a consultant, those type
(05:57):
of things.
And he uses the phrase anxietyas really just emotional
processes that are swirlingaround us.
And so being able to name those,name what's going on inside of
you, and then also being able toname what's happening uh outside
of you as well.
And so if there is emotionalforces, factors that are keeping
(06:18):
you stuck, um, then it that'sgonna create reactivity, right?
So you're not gonna have the, ifyou're stuck and you've got all
this anxiety coming at you,you're not gonna be able to
respond well.
You're just gonna react in themoment.
Um, or paralysis uh ordysfunction, where you just
almost maybe to the point whereyou said there that it's
(06:38):
chronically keeping you frommoving forward.
That's something that you reallyneed to address and and to uh to
to name.
And really there's there's twotypes of anxiety too.
There's acute anxiety, and thenthere's chronic anxiety.
And I've used this examplebefore.
Uh I have a light bar on myJeep, and I like to listen to my
(06:59):
music really loud, and I'mdriving down the highway at more
than the speed limit.
Here in Texas, it's 75, so maybesome north of that.
And all of a sudden, again, justa huge sound happens, and I look
and my light bar is hanging onthe side of the Jeep.
It had flown off and was bangingthe side of the Jeep.
(07:21):
So in that moment, acuteanxiety, I have to address this
immediately.
So I'll pull over on the side ofthe road, put the light bar
back, take a couple of breaths,go, move forward.
Chronic anxiety is when you knowthat all these things are
happening and you just don'taddress them over time and they
compound over and over and overagain.
(07:41):
And I think that's really wherethe rubber meets the road.
Can we address anxiety when it'sin the moment, when it's
actually happening, so that itdoesn't turn over into chronic
anxiety where bills begin topile up, relationships begin to
go to the wayside.
You don't make those courageoussteps to get a new job.
(08:04):
You just allow the frustrationand the pain and the anger and
all resentment build up for youin that.
So you've got to address theanxiety, and it's better to
address it on the front end thanit is down on down the road.
SPEAKER_01 (08:20):
Michael, as you say that, there's a part of me
that's like, that makes so muchsense because yes, like if if
you don't do something about theanxiety, then it will just
continue to manifest itself inyour mind.
And then there's this other partof me, which you know that I've
struggled with anxiety years,like decades, decades.
Um, and then there's part of methat's like, but some of my
(08:42):
anxiety is un like un, I want tosay unhinged, unlike it's not
based in things that I that aremaybe reality or based in things
that I even have control over orlike could address, right?
How do you know when it's ananxiety that you should do
(09:03):
something about versus somethingyou need to let go of in some
way, like replace the thoughtand not entertain it?
SPEAKER_00 (09:11):
Yeah.
Right.
So I I would say again, as youfor me, if I get into a
depressive state, if if thingsare kind of, you know,
melancholy or whatever, I canusually work my way to uh I'm
sorry, I I I usually that's justit kind of comes over me.
If it's an anxiety, if it's a arumination, if it's a negative
(09:34):
thought, if it's something thatI'm constantly worrying about,
if I take the time to name it,take a step back, I can work my
way to where that's reallycoming from.
And so um I I would say the thebest thing that you can do is to
take some of that, when thatanxiety is coming on, try to
address it immediately and beginto ask yourself, is this real?
(10:00):
Um, ask yourself, where is thiscoming from?
Um, ask yourself, is thissomething that I've dealt with
before?
And I know how to deal withthis, and this just keeps
popping up.
Um, I really like Brent BreneBrown's question that she puts
forth is what is the story I'mtelling myself?
SPEAKER_02 (10:16):
Oh, I love that.
SPEAKER_00 (10:17):
And so in those moments where you run into
somebody at the grocery store,coworker, a friend, somebody,
and that interaction doesn't goexactly how you thought it
would.
Maybe there was something alittle weird.
And so you begin to go, oh,they're mad at me.
Yes, they're uh they'refrustrated.
Oh, I didn't I didn't say happybirthday to them.
(10:37):
It was yesterday, I forgot.
You know, so and then we startplaying those stories in our
mind, okay.
Well, what's the story I'mtelling myself?
The story I'm telling myself isthey're mad at me because of
this.
Well, how do you know that?
Is that true?
And really chase that down tookay, what what really is true
or or what what do you know forcertain?
(10:58):
And then put aside what youdon't know.
You know, in in church work,I'll I'll tell you oftentimes
people will come up in you andsay, so-and-so is really upset
with um the change that wasmade.
Well, I just talked toso-and-so, and they didn't give
me any in in uh idea that theywere upset with me.
(11:19):
So I'm gonna treat so-and-sobecause I don't know the, I
don't know the whole story.
Until so-and-so tells me, I'mgoing to react in the way that
they're the energy that they'regiving me.
And so be that non-anxiouspresence when there might be
some things swirling around.
SPEAKER_01 (11:36):
Man, that can be, that can be hard.
Uh Michael, you may, you maykill me for what I'm about to
say.
But I keep thinking, as we'retalking about like anxiety, I
keep thinking about when you andI were in Kenya last year.
And and that's like my shirt,right?
Tavasamu, smile, Swahili.
(11:58):
Uh, when we were in Kenya and wewent to into the Kybera slums
and we went to go visit somewidows.
And there was a time you and Iwere sitting next to each other
on a couch.
Do you remember this?
This is a little bit more.
SPEAKER_00 (12:09):
Oh, oh yeah, I remember it exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (12:11):
Okay.
And so you and I are sittingthere, and y'all, like, I we
can't, I don't know how we couldaccurately describe the the the
living situations that thesewomen live in, which just shows
their strength and like the kindof the kind of people that they
are.
It's it is, you would never findanything like this anywhere in
America.
(12:31):
Um, and there was a sweet womanwho brought us into her house,
and we were sitting on hercouch, and uh, it was like three
of us on this tiny on this tinycouch, and I started getting
really un, like my back startedhurting because the couch was
uneven, and so I was sittingweird and like I already have
back issues.
And so I kept moving around.
(12:52):
And it wasn't until we got backto the place, but Michael was
sitting right next to me, and hedo you want to take the story
from the Yeah?
SPEAKER_00 (13:00):
Well, and not just that, you were you were
shifting, and I thought, Ithought what I had seen was a
flea.
SPEAKER_02 (13:06):
That's right.
SPEAKER_00 (13:06):
And and uh, and so she starts shifting, and then
Kimberly um abruptly gets up andwalks, like stands up and walks
towards the door.
And so now I'm starting to itch,and I'm starting to think about
what other things I might betaking back with us.
And um, I am just trying to keepa straight face, but everything
(13:27):
inside of me, just like what youtalked about, these were
automatic responses.
They weren't things that I wasmaking happen or whatever.
Right.
But as my mind continued torace, as the emotional uh
processes began to boil like acauldron, 100% right, I began to
lose it.
And so once we finally gotoutside, I said, Hey, what was
that about?
(13:48):
It's part of the big thing.
You were like, You were like,Oh, it's my bat.
And so immediately then I'mlike, oh, okay, that now start
working back.
I'm not, there are no, I didn'tsee any fleas.
I just just begin to kind ofwork your way back with that.
But once I knew part of thestory, I was able to change my
mindset.
(14:09):
And that changed my mentalstate, my emotional state, my
physical state, changedeverything.
SPEAKER_01 (14:15):
And it was, and I just I remember it so well
because when you said it to me,I felt like I physically
understood what you experiencedbecause that's happened to me
not right then in that moment,but like in other situations
where for me, I pick up on thesethings and I have written this
story where it's like, this iswhat's happening, but I have
(14:37):
missed like, but it's not, it'snot what's happening when we can
view it from another way.
So I was just like, oh, I knowhow, like, I know how that
feels.
I know 100%.
100%.
Um, I want Michael, one of thethings when you did, like you,
so you came and you did a Devo,our team does one every Tuesday,
just for the listeners to know.
(14:58):
And Michael presents prettyoften because he's good and we
want him to.
So he so in the most recent onethat he did um is when he
started talking about this, likethe need to be non-anxious, the
need, uh like what is anxiety?
SPEAKER_00 (15:12):
And like he said before, anxiety is it is a
pervasive emotional force in asystem.
And so it creates reactivity,it's paralyzed creates
paralysis, and it can causedysfunction.
SPEAKER_01 (15:24):
And it's contagious.
SPEAKER_00 (15:25):
So it's emotional processes.
Oh, yeah, it's definitelycontagious.
SPEAKER_01 (15:28):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (15:29):
Again, you're you're whatever was going on, that
anxiety is you, you're back,standing up, boiled over into my
anxiety.
SPEAKER_01 (15:36):
So let's but let's also be real.
So talking about so talk aboutit being contagious.
So then we get back that thatnight.
And I remember like all of us atthat point were kind of like,
maybe we should shower.
Um, and I remember getting in myshower, and all of a sudden I
see these jumping small bugs allin my shower.
And that was real.
(15:56):
And I and I was like, now I'mjust so aware, right?
Like now that I'm aware thatthis other thing happened and
that anxiety can be, and ofcourse, I'm not blaming hyper
awareness.
SPEAKER_00 (16:07):
Oh, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (16:07):
Well, like it creates this hyper-awareness.
And so when we are anxious aboutcertain things, we bring that
home.
We bring that into leadership,we bring it to church, we bring
it to our teams, we bring itinto our friendships.
And it's hard to stay calm wheneveryone else around you is is
(16:28):
anxious, which is why the flipside of that being the
non-anxious presence is soimportant.
SPEAKER_02 (16:34):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (16:35):
The other thing I love that you talked about was
there were these fivecharacteristics of chronic
anxiety.
So reactivity, hurting, blaming,quick fix mentality, lack of
leadership.
Do you want to walk us throughjust quick examples of what each
of those are or how they couldshow?
SPEAKER_00 (16:52):
Right, give me one.
SPEAKER_01 (16:53):
Uh okay, hurting.
Hurting.
SPEAKER_00 (17:01):
It's really twofold.
One, it's when the anxiety is souh acute or uh chronic in a
system to where the leader orwhere somebody is trying to get
everybody in circle the wagons,if you will.
They're trying to get everybodyon their own uh page.
And so it can be manipulative inthat you're wanting the whole
team to move in your direction.
(17:22):
And so you're you're pushingthem in that way, or it could be
those side conversations ofwhere you're trying to find out
who's on your side, who thinksthe same way you are, who or who
can you get on your side, whocan you make anxious so that
they can see you've got thesolution, or you know, that you
don't feel so alone anymore thatI don't like this this change
(17:43):
that's happening.
And so you can begin to herd inthat way.
SPEAKER_01 (17:47):
Which is a type of, would you say that's a type of
gossip?
SPEAKER_00 (17:51):
Oh, yeah, it's very much a gossip.
In in church world, we call itlike the parking lot
conversations.
It's the meeting after themeeting where everybody goes out
to the parking lot and talks totheir constituents or the people
that they uh connect with.
Um in families, right?
A spouse can pull the kids asideand speak poorly about the other
uh or what what's happening withthe other spouse, what they're
(18:13):
doing.
Uh did you see what dad's doingthat or whatever?
So um we can see that in in infamilies as well.
It is a form of gossip.
SPEAKER_01 (18:22):
Yeah.
And you know, the thing that I Iloved when you brought this up.
And the thing that I guess itkind of signaled or reminded me
of um is it allows, well, let melet me say it this way that
several, several years ago,probably six years ago, that was
there was someone who was in aleadership position at um at
Marriage Helper.
(18:42):
And they would hold their teammeetings, but then after the
team meeting, they wouldentertain one-on-one phone calls
of people who didn't agree withcertain things that happened in
the meeting.
And so, of course, what happenedwas they never dealt with
anything head-on as a group.
And so then there were likethese silos of conversation.
(19:04):
People like it just wasn'thealthy.
It was, it was super unhealthy,and you they never got to the
core of an issue as a team.
It prevented them to be like acohesive, strong team that was
able to really handle difficultsituations.
There was just too much drama,there was too much drama in all
of it.
And that was a form of hurting,whether it be from the person
(19:25):
who was leading those meetingsgoing to people and saying,
like, what did you think aboutthis?
What did you think about that,or the people on the team coming
to the leader and having thoseside conversations.
And so what it makes me think ofis when that happens, you really
like drastically inhibit theability for that function, that
(19:45):
system, that family, that team,that friend group, whatever it
is, that church, to actuallyever be strong.
Because if you can't addressconflict with each other
together and work through it andultimately get through to the
other side of that, not becauseyou all agree, but because at
least you've like fought throughthat storm and you got to the
(20:05):
other side, you're never gonnabe able to endure the fight that
comes from the outside in, whichyou're inevitably gonna have in
whatever kind of system it is.
SPEAKER_00 (20:16):
Right.
Lynciani in the fivedysfunctions of leadership, the
first dysfunction is a lack oftrust.
And beyond that, the nextdysfunction is a lack of
conflict.
Because if you can't trust oneanother, if you can't speak
freely with one another, ifyou're afraid that your teammate
or your spouse or uh your leaderis out to get you, or uh you
(20:40):
can't trust them with your fullthoughts, right?
You can't be vulnerable andreal.
We're not talking about likeemotionally dumping on people,
but especially in the workplace.
But if you can't do that, thenyou're never gonna be able to
have good conflict.
You're never gonna be able towork through even the smallest
issue if you have no trust.
(21:01):
And that hurting, those type ofthings break trust because
you're ultimately triangulatingbetween, you know, as a leader,
instead of having Joe talk toSusie, right?
You're talking to Susie, you'retalking to Joe, and they're
never resolving their issues.
And so you're carrying that,you're carrying the anxiety that
(21:23):
the two of them have brought toyou.
You know, the the the don'tthese are not my clowns, right?
This is not this is not mycircus, this is not my clowns.
You've never allowed them todeal with their clowns.
You're you're you're acting likea an overarching helicopter
parent that you're just tryingto keep the peace and it's not
(21:43):
keeping the peace.
SPEAKER_01 (21:45):
Okay.
I love that we've landed here.
So here's here's here's whathappens, right?
And I want to hear your I wantto hear your thoughts about
this.
And we could we can think aboutthis in terms of a leader with
two people on their team or aparent with two kids, okay?
Because both both situationshappen.
So you have two people, theyaren't getting along.
(22:06):
As a leader, as a mom, as a dad,whatever, the ideal situation is
okay, you two figure this out.
Like you need to figure this outamongst yourselves.
But there will inevitably come apoint where one of them will
say, but you're the leader.
You're the one who's supposed todo something about this.
You're at what point do you stepin as a leader, as a mom, as a
(22:31):
dad?
And at what point do you justcontinue to force the two of
them to work it out so that youwon't always have to be the one
to come in and help them work itout?
SPEAKER_00 (22:41):
Yeah.
Wow.
Um, man.
So, and of course, some of thatcomes with maturity, your own
maturity.
That's the the name of the bookis a failure of nerve.
And what fill what Friedman issaying is problems within
organizations, within familiesare often the result of a leader
not having enough nerve to dothe right thing.
(23:03):
And so that's why you've got towork through your own maturity,
deal with your own anxiety.
And so I, you know, I for formost of my life, I think I have
been a bit of a um oh, the pathof least resistance, right?
I I want to uh I did a conflictresolution uh uh masterwork,
some classes with that, and I itcame back with comparom that my
(23:27):
leadership stopped.
Of dealing with conflict iscompromise.
And at first I was like, ugh,that's gross of compromise.
But then I realized, okay, I'mputting a moral judgment on
that.
And so for me, compromise isreally that path of least
resistance.
How can we get these people towork together?
And so you have to acknowledgethat there is a time when to
(23:48):
step in, but you're not holdinghand holding.
What can you do to teach themhow to work together?
It's not the old meme whereyou've got two kids fighting and
the parent put them in onet-shirt together and this is my
get-along shirt.
Um it's not that, but it may bethat you have to step in and
(24:09):
mediate a compromise betweenthem, that you've got to walk
both of them through.
It also may be to at the verybeginning to recognize um
somebody's coming to you aboutsomebody else, just nipping it
in the bud immediately.
Have you talked to that personabout this?
SPEAKER_02 (24:27):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (24:27):
And then saying, I won't entertain any of
conversations until you tell methat you've talked to them.
Like just that's that's themature thing to do.
That's the leadership thing todo.
That's what the Bible tells usto do, right?
Go to that person first.
SPEAKER_01 (24:43):
Yeah, 100%.
And you know, it's it'ssometimes hard.
Like when people come to me andsay things like that, and I'm
like, have you gone to talk tothat person?
It's holding that line.
You need to go talk to thatperson.
Because part of me, like theinternal part of me is like, oh,
I don't want them to think Idon't care or that I'm pushing
them away.
But there's a way to do it insuch a way where it's like, I
(25:05):
hear you, but I know the bestway that this is gonna be
handled is by you talkingdirectly to that person.
SPEAKER_00 (25:10):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (25:11):
Um, and like holding that line.
SPEAKER_00 (25:14):
Well, you I mean, you mentioned those some of
those emotional processes,right?
You want you want the personthat's coming to you.
You you're worried that they'regoing to um think you don't
care, or you're gonna say, oh,they they don't think that this
uh my boss doesn't think this isa big enough deal, or they blew
me off, or and then you startmaking store, what are they
gonna tell other people?
And those are those emotionalprocesses that we've got to as
(25:37):
leaders address immediately andthen model that for our people
and then step in when we haveto.
SPEAKER_01 (25:46):
Yeah, I love that.
I think this goes right in linewith the the next thing I wanted
to be sure to speak with youabout, which is yes, so when a
person, I mean, I'll just I'lljust say it for me.
When I allow myself to care, uh,I'm gonna say it how it's gonna
come out, and then we'll fix it.
When I allow myself to care moreabout what the people in the
(26:08):
system are gonna think of me,whether that be work, whether
that be friends, whether it bewhatever home, um, then the
right thing to do, that's wherelines begin to get blurry.
Or um, like in even further, wecan keep going.
Like when those people I feellike now have expectations of
me.
And now I'm trying to meet theirexpectations instead of having
(26:31):
my own vision, my own way ofgoing.
This is where, this is wherethings can get kind of nasty.
I think this is where burnoutcan happen to a person
individually.
But when you talked about this,you talked about it being
self-differentiation.
So, what isself-differentiation?
SPEAKER_00 (26:50):
All right.
So, self-differentiation is theability to divine, to define
one's own individual goals andvalues while staying connected
to others in a meaningful way.
So it means being your ownperson, but not to the extent
that you're some stoic monk upin the mountains that you just
don't care about the people thatare just so anxious about life.
(27:12):
If you know who you are, youknow your mission and your
goals, your purpose, and thenyou can accept the that other
people have different agendas,that other people have different
goals, that other people uh aremaybe getting in the way of
their own selves and their owngoals.
And so it's really being a yourown person while still being
(27:34):
connected.
And I think the best examplethat we see of this is Jesus
Christ.
Um, when you think about thecrowds that are coming to him,
right?
The crowds are just pressing in.
I'm a big fan of Jesus Christsuperstar, and there there is a
scene where everybody is justcrushing in on Jesus, and the
music just makes it all thatmuch more, you know, gives you
(27:54):
the willies as it's justcrushing in.
The crowds are coming in onJesus, and what does he do?
He says, We're gonna leaveministry from here and we're
gonna go someplace else.
Or he gets up and goes up to themountaintop, is praying,
communing with the Father.
The disciples say, Jesus,everybody's looking for you.
Great, we're gonna go do this.
Or I'm gonna go to the other,you know, I'll meet y'all on the
(28:17):
other side of the lake.
No, everybody was trying to tellJesus what who he was, what his
mission was supposed to be.
Everybody else was telling himwhat he needed to do and when he
needed to do it.
And Jesus wasself-differentiation,
self-differentiated.
He knew who he was, he knew whathis mission is, and he didn't
allow any of those otheremotional processes or people or
(28:40):
systems to get in the way ofthat.
So just be like Jesus.
When the storms are going, gowhen the storms are when the
storms are around you, just gotake a nap.
SPEAKER_01 (28:51):
You know, there's a lot of wisdom in that, but uh,
you know, it's so true.
And then the uh rebellious isn'tthe right word, but the like
questioning, I guess questioner,the questioner part of me is
like, but he's also God's sonand it knew he was so sure of
(29:13):
exactly what his mission was,right?
And so thinking about people, Iknow this has happened to me,
maybe it happened to you growingup.
Like your parents had an opinionof what they wanted you to do,
what they wanted who they whothey wanted you to be, what kind
of career they wanted you tohave.
Um, like visions, friends havethat, like people say things.
(29:35):
And so, how can someone discern,like, so I want to get more into
self-differentiationspecifically in a minute, but
the first part of this was thatyou know you can be your own
person, you can be steady andsteadfast without being isolated
from the people around you, butalso without being consumed by
the people around you.
So where does discernment comein to this?
(30:00):
Where does like uh you get whatI'm trying to ask?
Like I could also be superselfish and stubborn and have
like this really steadfastopinion of what I should do and
what I in the person I want tobe, but I could be a complete
jerk.
You know what I mean?
So how do I know?
(30:20):
And so maybe I should listen tosome people.
I guess I'm still not beingconsumed by them, but help me
help me process this.
SPEAKER_00 (30:27):
I think you used a good word there.
There's a difference in stayingconnected to those people and
being consumed by them, or inyour own pursuit of your vision,
consuming them.
So I like that word consume inthat.
So yeah, I think which if you'reif you are dead set and and
heading towards your vision andnot listening to anybody, yeah,
(30:48):
you're gonna be a jerk, butthat's not gonna keep you
connected to the other people.
So it's being able to say, okay,that is your opinion.
Maybe it's being able to say, II take that criticism or I take
that instruction direction, Itake that for what it's worth.
And if it if it serves me, thenuh I need to be able to have be
(31:10):
humbly hum uh have enoughhumility to listen to what
they're saying, whether it'scriticism or whether it's like I
said, instruction, direction.
Um, or and so it's it's beingstaying connected.
And so, yeah, not being a jerk,not being, like I said, a monk
where you're just cut off fromeverybody.
Um, you know, not again again,to your point, Jesus did know he
(31:32):
was the son of God and he kneweverything, but he didn't lord
that over.
SPEAKER_01 (31:36):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (31:37):
He stayed connected with those people.
He may have said, I can't healat this time, I can't do exactly
what you're asking me to doright now.
You may not understand whatyou're saying.
How many of us, how many of ushave listened to people who have
given us some sort of an opinionabout our lives?
Their lives aren't their livesaren't put together.
SPEAKER_02 (31:55):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (31:56):
And so you just take that with us.
Well, I appreciate that.
One day you'll be able to maybesee a perspective that you don't
right now, that type of thing.
SPEAKER_01 (32:03):
Yeah.
That's really good.
You you told this story in Devothat I think really put into, I
think it made this concept ofself-differentiation very real
and understandable.
SPEAKER_00 (32:19):
So it's from another Friedman book called Uh
Freedman's Fables.
And there are two of thesefables that I absolutely love.
And I I shared one of them, mymy favorite one, which is called
The Bridge.
And it's about a man who, forhis entire life, has tried to
figure out who he is and what hewants to do out of life, right?
What is his purpose?
(32:39):
And then he discovers it and herealizes he has to act on that
now.
He has to begin moving forwardtowards that, and he has to take
a journey to get there, but ithas to happen now.
He can't put it off any longer.
And so he sets out on thisjourney.
And as he gets to this bridge onthe other side of the bridge,
there's somebody else walkingtowards him.
And this person has a rope tiedaround their waist.
(33:00):
And as our friend, as our hero,is going across the bridge, this
man meets him, hands him the uhend of the rope, and says, Now
don't forget to hold on tight.
And the man with the rope jumpsoff the side of the bridge.
And so it leaves our heroholding on to this man on the
side of the bridge.
There's a raging river downbelow, and this man has to
(33:20):
decide what is he going to do?
This he doesn't know thisperson.
It's a stranger.
He's got a journey to take.
He's on the way of trying to uhto become his best self, to
become the best version ofhimself that he wants to be.
And the man at the end of therope just says, I'm your
responsibility now.
And the man holding the rope is,I don't even know you.
(33:41):
How can you be myresponsibility?
And the man at dangling at theend of the rope is just hanging
there.
And he expects our hero to takecare of him, to make sure that
he doesn't fall.
And so our man begins tonegotiate with him, says, Hey, I
can pull you back up.
And the man says, I have nointerest in being pulled uh or
helping to pull myself up.
(34:02):
It's all on you.
You're I'm your responsibility.
And so the man's trying tofigure out what is he gonna do.
And ultimately he says, hedecides to say to the man at the
end of the rope, look, I can'ttake responsibility for your
life.
I can only take responsibilityfor mine.
You can only take responsibilityfor you.
So I'm gonna give you one lastchance.
If you want to, if you want totake responsibility, if for me
(34:26):
to continue in this relationshipthat we have right now, you're
gonna have to help begin pullyourself up.
And if you don't, then I'm gonnagive your life, your
responsibility for your lifeback to you.
And he doesn't feel the man doanything at the end of the rope.
And ultimately our hero, ourfriend lets go of the rope.
(34:46):
And that's the end of theparable, end of the story.
And so you have to begin tothink, who are you in this, in
this parable?
Uh are you the man that somebodyhas given responsibility of
their life over to you, right?
Whether it is an adult childthat is living in your house and
has been for way too long?
Is it somebody at work that isnot pulling their own weight and
(35:09):
you swoop in and save them everysingle time because of the
emotional processes that aregoing on?
Is it a spouse that you keepmaking excuses for?
Um, and sometimes when I'vetalked to people who may be
dealing with recovery or dealingwith some people that, you know,
Kimberly, that just can't getout of their own way, is is it
(35:30):
your is it you that's also onthe other side?
Is it that version of you thatyou don't want to be anymore,
that one that keeps you stuckand keeps you from hanging, uh
keeps you from moving forward,is that the person that you need
to let the rope go?
So it there's a that's what Ilove about parables.
You can hear them and you canread them in different ways, see
(35:51):
yourself in different parts.
Um, but that's why I thinkthey're so powerful.
SPEAKER_01 (35:55):
Why was that one your favorite?
SPEAKER_00 (35:59):
I think because when I when I discovered Freedmen, I
was in my 20s in ministry.
And I had my biggest frustrationsometimes is having to handhold
the people that you shouldn'thave to handhold.
It's the people that have beenin church work or leadership for
(36:20):
20-something years and they'venot really moved forward.
And sometimes they can be thevictim, sometimes they can be
the one that is holding theentire system back or
organization back because it'swe want things like it used to
be, and they can't let go ofthat type of thing.
And so I realized maybe maybenot so dramatic that I'm gonna
(36:41):
throw them off a bridge, right?
But the idea that I maybe I'mpulling and pulling and pulling,
they're not budging.
I'm tired of pulling, right?
I I have to take responsibilityfor myself.
And so, in some ways, when Ifound Freeman, when I found this
fable, I was at a point where Iwas realizing I need to let go
of a lot of ropes.
(37:01):
Um, I'm the I'm the one pullingand things aren't uh or I'm I'm
concerned, I'm more concernedabout my end of the rope, that's
not even my rope, than they are.
SPEAKER_01 (37:12):
Yeah.
That's what I loved about it.
It it was it's such a clearclear, I'm gonna use the word
clear, it's such a clear pictureof this self-differentiation
concept of am I trying to domore work for another person
than they are willing to do forthemselves?
Or am I trying to do more workfor a system or for a team or
(37:35):
for whatever, like, or for afamily?
Am I trying to so much that itis engrossing my like
everything?
I'm giving everything I have forit, but I am missing my purpose
in life along the way.
Or and it's not just about thethings that are gonna make me
happy, but like the things thatmaybe I am called to focus on
and to do, but I've becomeengrossed into this and to try
(37:58):
and make to make this otherperson or system work.
Yeah.
This one's hard for people.
SPEAKER_00 (38:04):
Yeah.
Well, you used engrossed.
I think there's also a word likeenmeshed.
We can get so enmeshed in that.
Um and and again, I to yourpoint, forget who we really are.
Um I uh I would say for me, inif we go back to ministry, uh
preaching is a tool in my toolbelt.
(38:26):
But I wanted to develop leadersand disciples, develop mature
Christians, that type of thing.
So I used preaching, but thatwasn't my identity.
And so if I spent so much time,you know, if somebody told me,
hey, Michael, you know, I youcould do a 60-hour course on
preaching, maybe, maybe I wouldtake it, maybe it would move the
(38:47):
needle a little further.
Um, but I'm gonna do better whenI'm focusing more on leadership
development, my own emotionalcapacity, my own mental uh
resilience.
That's how I'm gonna help peopleby doing that.
And so you can get so caught upin other people's opinions of
what you need to be doing andand who you need to be in a
particular role.
(39:07):
Um, but you've got to discern,take time to have that sense of
who you really are.
What are your beliefs, yourvalues?
What what are you what do youput on this earth to do?
Um, I think it was Steve Jobsused the the term go make a dent
in the world.
What's your dent look like?
It's it's shaped like you, andit's shaped by your goals and
values and tools and resources.
SPEAKER_01 (39:29):
And have the nerve to do it.
SPEAKER_00 (39:31):
Have the nerve to do it.
SPEAKER_01 (39:34):
That shook me when you said it a minute ago.
The the failures that happen insystems are because of someone,
like the leader of it theirtheir failure to do the right or
the hard thing.
And sometimes that system is us,like our own life and future.
A lot of people will tell uswhat to do or what they want us
(39:57):
to do or their expectations ofus.
Uh, but are we gonna have theself-differentiation to choose
ours while also being able tohold that tension, to stay
connected to the other person.
Now, in the fable, they droppedthe rope.
SPEAKER_00 (40:12):
Right, right.
I don't, you know, they didn'tnecessarily but in in what he
did is he said, I'm going togive my your life back over to
you.
I'm not responsible for you.
You have to take responsibilityfor yourself.
SPEAKER_01 (40:25):
Yeah.
I love that.
SPEAKER_00 (40:28):
Super powerful.
And that's hard.
That's hard because we don'twant people to hurt themselves.
We want people to to succeed.
And sometimes they're their ownworst enemies.
They aren't, they aren't willingto do anything.
And we're we're only going to beable to pull them so far.
And the more we focused on them,the less we can focus on the
other people that are actuallywanting help, leaning into help,
(40:51):
change, maturity, all of that.
Right.
That that person can take all ofour energy and then burn us out.
SPEAKER_01 (40:57):
Yeah, 100%.
SPEAKER_00 (41:00):
I heard a statistic one time people pastors leave
churches because of six people.
I've seen that, I've seen thatplay out.
I don't know if that's a truestat, but I've seen it so
because because of, and and itcould be for anything, right?
It could be that that personthat constantly needs help and
constantly needs benevolence andis unwilling to change their
(41:22):
behavior, unwilling to get ajob, unwilling to move forward.
And that can burn somebody out.
SPEAKER_01 (41:27):
Yeah.
Constantly negative.
SPEAKER_00 (41:29):
Constantly negative people.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (41:32):
I think, yeah, I can see, I can see that one being
one of the big ones.
I mean, the thing is, I could Ibelieve it.
It could be a church of probably12,000 people and six people
could drive, could drive apastor away if it's the if it's
the right or the you know thewrong six people in this case.
Yeah.
Michael, what is a final pieceof wisdom that you would want to
(41:54):
leave the audience with aroundthis topic?
SPEAKER_00 (41:58):
I would encourage you to do the hard work to
discover who you are and who whoyou're put on this earth to be.
And then I would take some timeto understand what are those
pressure points or anxiousemotional processes that keep
you from um staying to thatmission, staying to the mission
(42:21):
of who you are or what it isthat you're working towards, so
that you can identify them andyou can begin to recognize them
when they happen.
Uh for me, I hate those um typeof uh the emotional things of
and Kimberly, you and I'vetalked about this too.
Hey, can we have a meetingtomorrow?
And nobody tells you what themeeting's about.
Or yeah, yeah.
(42:44):
I always ask um, so now I'velearned that that's a trigger
for me.
And so I always ask, yeah, isthere anything I can prepare
for?
Is there anything that I need tobring with me?
And so that that stops thatanxiety from spiraling out of
control in the moment and askingthem, you know, for you know,
context or some things likethat.
So identifying what are thoseemotional processes that you
(43:07):
keep um participating in thatare keeping you stuck, keeping
you fearful, keeping you frommoving forward, and then develop
a plan, figure out a plan forhow to overcome those.
SPEAKER_01 (43:19):
Man, I love it.
And you're such the real dealtoo, Michael.
You're always learning,investing in bettering yourself,
telling us about like somethingyou've learned, something you've
read, something you've done.
You are just always, like yousaid before, like increasing
your emotional capacity as aleader.
I think you do a brilliant jobat that, which is why you're
(43:41):
trusted and called on to like toinvest in other leaders and
speak to people and things likethat, because you do the hard
work.
SPEAKER_00 (43:50):
I appreciate that.
Thank you.
Because I didn't do the hardwork for a long time.
SPEAKER_01 (43:55):
You I learned my lesson.
You learned your lesson.
Well, you do it now.
Loved talking to you, Michael.
Thank you so much.
SPEAKER_00 (44:02):
Thank you for the opportunity, Kimberly.
SPEAKER_01 (44:06):
Okay, y'all.
So there are things that get usstuck when we are afraid, when
we are venturing into theunknown, when we are scared of
failure.
And when we are scared, when weare stuck, that anxiety can lead
us to do things that justultimately aren't healthy and
ultimately don't help make ushappy long term.
(44:27):
We can end up making otherpeople in our lives anxious.
We can try and get them on ourside so they see things our way
and it just perpetuates thisanxious cycle.
The bottom line is how can webetter increase our emotional
capacity because ultimatelythat's going to change the way
we show up and we are gonna showup as a non-anxious presence.
(44:47):
I remember when I was goingthrough my MFT program, marriage
and family therapy program backin my master's days.
And one of the first things thatthey taught us as budding
marriage and family therapistswas be the non-anxious presence.
In fact, that was kind of theonly thing I remember taking
into my first counselingsessions that I would run with
(45:10):
people and with couples.
Be the non-anxious presence.
That's like the big thing thatthey just wanted us to remember.
Therefore, it must be important.
Be the non anxious presence.
Don't allow your emotions toconsume you.
Be able to process them and showup in a way that allows other
people.
People to be and feel safe.
My other key takeaway, thesecond one of my three, is when
(45:35):
he said that failures ofsystems, failures of businesses,
failures of families, and manytimes failures of relationships.
Many times it's because oneperson in it didn't have the
nerve to do the right or thehard thing.
Man, I think back to so manytimes in my life, even
friendships from my past, that Igot frustrated with that person,
(45:59):
but I didn't know how to talk tothem about it.
I didn't have the nerve.
I didn't have maybe the courageor the bravery to say some
things that maybe would havebeen hard, but ultimately could
have possibly saved thefriendship or saved the
relationship.
I think about it in many areasof my life.
And so I would encourage you tothink: is there anywhere in your
(46:20):
life where you have a failure ofnerve?
You just are avoiding the hardconversation.
You're avoiding telling theperson how they've been making
you feel.
You're avoiding speaking up whenyou know something is going on
that shouldn't be happening.
It's a failure of nerve.
What would it look like if youdid the right thing, the hard
(46:43):
thing, and how would that changethe future of what's going to
happen?
Finally, I love the fable thatMichael told us about.
I've seen myself as the personholding the rope and as the
person on the rope, maybe evensometimes as the rope itself,
trying to be that between twopeople.
(47:03):
Where did you see yourself?
Because I know you did.
I shared this same fable in aclass that I taught, and every
person pretty much said, Oh mygosh, I see myself in that.
Maybe you see yourself as theperson who's been depending on
everyone else, blaming everyoneelse.
Maybe you've been stuck in avictim mindset.
(47:24):
What does it look like for youto start pulling yourself up the
rope and showing the people inyour life that you are
appreciative of how they've beenholding it for you?
And what does it look like ifyou're the one holding the rope
and there's someone or somethingin your life that you feel like
is just taking advantage of you?
(47:46):
Maybe you're enabling thatbehavior because you're just
continuing to hold the rope andletting your life pass you by
while someone else isn'tactually doing anything that's
gonna lead them to come back up.
What are you allowing time topass for?
Now, I do have to say this.
(48:07):
I shared this fable with myhusband when Michael told us
about it the first time.
And I was processing with himhow it was resonating with me at
that moment.
And my husband said, and in thatmoment, I said, like in as I was
processing it, I said right now,in this instance, I see myself
as the person holding the rope.
(48:27):
But this other thing or personbeing the one on the end of the
rope, and I just feel like I'mready to let go.
And my husband said, Kimberly,but what if the person on the
end of the rope wants to comeup, but they're just really
unhealthy and they're really outof shape and they're trying, but
(48:47):
it's slow.
You don't want to let go of therope too soon.
If the person on the other endis trying their best to start
coming back up, I can't answerthese things for you.
More than anything, I think it'sa good thing for you to think
about and think through as youthink through your life right
(49:09):
now, how you're being impacted,and the way that you're showing
up.
Until next week.
Remember to stay strong.
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