March 24, 2026 • 56 mins
Ever feel like you've become the unofficial therapist in your friend group? You're not alone, and I've been there too. Most of us make one critical mistake when someone comes to us with a problem: we try to fix it.
In this episode, I sit down with licensed professional counselor Meredith Ball (LPC) to talk about how to actually support the people in your life without overstepping, shutting them down, or burning yourself out. Meredith helped me see some things about my own listening habits that I honestly needed to hear, especially how growing up in a conservative church environment shaped the way I respond when people come to me with their struggles.
In this episode, we cover:
How to listen without jumping into fix-it mode, what to do when a friend is clearly making a bad decision, when and how to have a moral confrontation with someone you love, the one thing that keeps most of us from truly hearing another person, how to support a friend who's thinking about leaving their marriage, why "do whatever makes you happy" might be the worst advice you can give, what "doing the work" actually means, and the truth about whether AI and ChatGPT can replace real human connection.
Meredith Ball is a Licensed Professional Counselor and Marriage Helper Certified Coach who specializes in helping individuals and couples navigate difficult relational dynamics.
đź“– Book mentioned: The Lost Art of Listening by Michael Nichols and Martha Straus
Here's what I took away from this conversation: everything is endurable, learning to set your emotions to the side so you can stay present with someone is a game changer, and how you show up for the people in your life starts with the work you're doing on yourself.
If this episode helped you, share it with a friend who needs to hear it.
I'm Dr. Kimberly Beam Holmes. After a decade transforming marriages at Marriage Helper, I've realized that the greatest tragedy isn't a failed relationship; it's the person who stays stuck and never experiences the fullness of all God intended.
The Way You Show Up is for the high-achiever who is tired of "fine."
We're dismantling the average life to build an exceptional one—using the science of the PIES: Physical, Intellectual, Emotional, and Spiritual health.
If you want to save your marriage, go to Marriage Helper. If you want to master yourself and lead your legacy, stay here.
New episodes every Tuesday.
Don't just exist. Show up.
đź”— Website: https://kimberlybeamholmes.com
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_02 (01:28):
How can you be a therapist without being a
therapist?
Here's the thing.
I'm not actually talking aboutdoing therapy for your friends
and family, but there are timeswhere your friends, your family
members, a coworker, they cometo you and they start talking to
you and kind of treating youlike their therapist, in the
(01:48):
sense of they want advice, theywant feedback, they want
comfort, and they're coming toyou for that.
Well, first of all, that's greatbecause it shows some great
qualities about you.
But secondly, the question thatyou probably have is how am I
supposed to handle thesesituations?
I'm not a therapist, how do Ihandle it?
That's what we're talking aboutin today's episode.
Today I'm speaking with MeredithBall.
(02:10):
She is an LPC, she's also amarriage helper certified coach,
and we are talking about all thethings, how to be a therapist
without actually being atherapist.
Let's dive in to today'sepisode.
So we're gonna talk today abouta couple things.
I'm gonna throw you a curveballlater.
(02:31):
Are you gonna tell me what thecurveball is?
No.
But I'm real excited to get toit.
It's gonna be really great.
But to start, we're gonna talkwith how to be a therapist
without being a therapist.
Caveat for the listeners morethan anything.
Is we are is that we are nottalking about how people should
like actually try and be a realtherapist.
SPEAKER_01 (02:54):
There are times that you really do call a therapist.
SPEAKER_02 (02:56):
Yes, 100%.
But when you're in thosesituations where it's like my
friends are bringing me alltheir problems, they're talking
about their marriage issues,they're trying to like they're
bringing a lot of grief andtrauma, and I'm not a trained
therapist.
How do I handle this situationwhen people are coming to me
with really heavy problems, butI don't really know how to help
(03:18):
them navigate through it.
SPEAKER_01 (03:19):
It to me, it all comes down to listening.
Listening really, really well.
And I think what we're all dyingfor is to be heard.
So it sounds like a pat answer,maybe, but I think there's a lot
there in terms of listeningreally well.
SPEAKER_02 (03:43):
So let's talk about how do you listen really well
and how do you continue tolisten really well when you feel
like the other person won't stoptalking.
SPEAKER_01 (03:55):
What may really let some people off the hook here is
I don't necessarily know thatthere are a ton of solutions or
a ton of situations that we arein where we're our role is to
find the solution.
In fact, I think a lot of theproblems that our friends would
bring to us don't have asolution.
It's a hard season of life thatthey get to walk through.
(04:17):
And it will be easier for themand better for them when they
don't have to walk alone.
So keeping that top of mind, I'mnot called to fix this problem.
I'm not called to solve thisproblem.
I'm not even sure if thisproblem is fixable.
This problem is endurable.
And my role is to walk alongsidethis person really well.
(04:42):
So what does that look like?
Listening and reflectingfeelings, validating feelings,
accepting feelings.
Um I think that's really goodlistening.
And I think that's the role thatwe can play.
SPEAKER_02 (04:59):
So I'm thinking through uh this is not this is
not my situation, this is not asituation that one of my
specific friends is dealingwith.
It's one of my friends isdealing with it about their
friends.
Okay.
Let's follow this rabbit trailfor a minute.
So um two degrees of separation.
Two degrees of separation, andI'm gonna change the story some.
(05:20):
So uh you have a friend wherethere's like you just said,
there's not a ton of problemsthat people bring us that have a
solution, or at least it's notour role to fix that solution.
But what do you do if you have afriend who's so clearly in a
devastating situation that theyare continuing to make the wrong
(05:42):
choice for?
So what if you have a friend whois actively dating a married
man, knows he's married, hasbeen dating him for years, and
is like, oh, but they're youknow, they're gonna end up
divorcing their wife one day,they're gonna end up being with
me.
Yeah.
And it's so clearly a terriblesituation for them.
SPEAKER_00 (06:04):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (06:05):
And for that, and of, you know, of course, for
that other marriage.
But if you're the friend thatthat person is coming to, how do
you even like process thatpersonally, listen, empathize
with their feelings withoutwanting to fix it, without
wanting to shake them and say,what you're doing is causing you
(06:25):
harm.
SPEAKER_01 (06:26):
Yeah.
There there is a place for moralconfrontation.
And I think there's two bucketsthat I would put that in.
The first is, you know, maybesomeone is coming to me with
something that feels like aviolation of my beliefs and
values, but maybe there is somesubjectivity there.
(06:48):
Maybe there is some fluidity.
I think listening, the way I wasjust defining it, like listening
not to solve problems or giveadvice, feels threatening to a
lot of us that maybe grew up ina, like for lack of a better
word, like a really conservativeevangelical church environment,
because we had instruction foreverything.
And we believed that the costcould be really high if we made
(07:11):
a wrong turn in life.
And I'm not saying there's notsomething to that.
I'm just saying I do thinkthere's some legalism there
that's not always helpful,right?
Um, we can all think of those, Ithink in church I've heard it
called those first, first order,second order, third order order
levels of importance, right?
Maybe there's a few things thatwe would stake our life on, and
(07:32):
there's other things that we cangive people the freedom to have
their own beliefs.
So there is that.
And I think we have to be verycautious about what we consider
to be something on the level ofmoral confrontation.
Maybe that's not always there.
Now, the example that you weregiving is someone who's dating a
married man.
Okay, that would be on the levelof moral confrontation according
(07:53):
to my beliefs and values, right?
So when I come up on that kindof stuff, and that does come up
with my clients sometimes, and Ihave to be careful that I don't
impose my own beliefs onclients, but if it does seem
like something that could bereally damaging, even
emotionally, mentally damagingin the long run for my client or
(08:16):
for somebody that that he or sheis talking about, I will ask
permission.
Can I give can I have yourpermission to tell you something
that that's that is kind ofconfrontational and might be
kind of hard?
Right?
So then I get their permission.
And and I'll say things like,you know, just this could be
(08:37):
kind of hard to hear.
This might make you feeldefensive.
I could understand if it did,because it is confrontation.
So don't feel like you have torespond.
Right?
Take some time and process it.
Right?
I just don't know if I could bea good friend and not express to
you that this feels like aviolation of moral principles
(08:59):
that that I think are importantto you as my friend.
Right?
It would depend on who you'respeaking to as well.
There are some friends that Iknow they would care less about.
Certain things that feel like amoral violation to me.
So I would choose my words, youknow, I would consider and I
would choose my words carefully.
SPEAKER_02 (09:14):
I want to go back to this concept that you just
brought up of moralconfrontation and legalism.
SPEAKER_00 (09:20):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (09:21):
So yes, I also grew up in a grew up in a
conservative evangelical homeand world, like church, yeah,
middle school, high school,college.
Right.
Um and I even as I'm thinkingthrough my own filter and when
friends or family do come to meand they have uh things that
(09:46):
they bring up or that they'resharing, I do think I tend to
have a reaction, what you weretalking about of like there was
instruction for me foreverything growing up.
Like, there's a right way to dothings, there's a wrong way to
do things, and you don't want todo it the wrong way, you need to
do it the right way.
So I was like, I always I jokethat me and my sister were both
(10:07):
pastors' kids, but I was thepastor's kids that followed all
the rules, and she was therebel.
So she was the one who like yeahI didn't feel as constrained as
I think I do.
Yeah.
But I do think I tend to bringthat into when someone brings
something to me.
Like if there's an extendedfamily member who talks about uh
(10:30):
how his girlfriend asked if theywanted to move in together.
And like my first visceralreaction is like, you can't,
that's wrong.
Like you can't do that.
And I do think that it keeps mefrom listening, yeah, because
I'm thinking about the rules,which I do believe are
(10:50):
important, yeah, but maybe I'mthinking of the rules more than
I'm thinking about the listeningor even the relationship.
SPEAKER_01 (10:57):
Yeah, I get that.
Because old habits die hard.
Old habits die hard.
And you grew up in anenvironment where there was a
rule for everything, yeah.
In a good and a bad way.
It wasn't even like a good,better, and best way to do
things.
In a lot of cases, it was it wasblack and white.
There was a right way to handlea certain situation and there
was a wrong way to handle acertain situation.
So I catch myself doing thatsometimes.
(11:18):
I think my therapist traininghas helped me in that.
If I'm talking to the personyou're talking about that wants
to move in with their with hisgirlfriend, I would say, okay,
tell tell me why that makessense for you, right?
And I can at least get a goodunderstanding.
Probably his reasons for wantingto do that have nothing to do
with the things that I'mconcerned about.
(11:41):
Like that feels like some sortof a moral violation.
And he might say, you know,well, my lease is expiring and,
you know, we have thesefinancial considerations or
whatever.
And that doesn't mean it's theright thing for him to do, but
at least you've got anunderstanding of where he's
coming from.
And he's, I think, more likelyto hear you out if you've hurt
(12:01):
him out first, right?
Here's where my concerns withthe about this would be.
I hear where you're coming from.
And I hear why on a certainlevel that could make a lot of
sense for you.
Here's where I'm coming from.
And what why that would concernme if I were in your shoes.
SPEAKER_02 (12:18):
One of the things that we talk about with the pies
now are the inputs and theoutputs.
So one of the inputs underintellectual attraction is uh,
and the inputs are things thatwe can control.
So the four inputs forintellectual attraction, putting
myself on the spot here,curiosity and openness is one of
them.
So how curious we are towardsothers.
(12:40):
Um, perspective taking is uh andcritical thinking is another
one.
Intellectual humility is a thirdone, and then like purposeful
learning.
So kind of curating the contentthat you see.
And so as you're talking aboutthis, I'm thinking, and the way
that that the and the way thatthat shows up, it helps us show
up different intellectually, ispeople feel safe with us, like
psychologically safe.
(13:01):
They build we build trust withothers because they feel like we
aren't just always looking outfor our best interests, we're
also looking out for theirs,different things like that.
Yeah, and so that's kind of whatI'm hearing you even talking
about right now is like it'sthat curiosity, it's that
perspective taking, whichhonestly can be so hard to do.
SPEAKER_01 (13:20):
Yeah.
Curiosity over judgment.
And that was part of my therapytraining.
And you know, even if you don'tagree with what someone is
doing, which you're allowed todo, even if you don't agree with
what someone is doing, you willhave a kinder, more
compassionate perspective if youtake the time to understand why
(13:43):
they're doing what they'redoing.
It's almost certainly notnefarious on their part.
It's not like they're saying,how can I live unwisely and
immorally, right?
There's some there's some partof their decision process that
they probably do have differentpriorities and different values
than you, and that's why there'sa disagreement.
But take the time to understandwhy why that is and what's going
(14:07):
into their decision-makingprocess.
SPEAKER_02 (14:10):
So we've talked about moral, like the a moral
confrontation.
So something that can so I'mtrying to think now through
okay, what are the things thatcan prevent us from actually
hearing another person whenthey're coming to us and being
able to be there for them andand to help them feel heard.
So one of them might be like alegalism mindset, a moral
confrontation mindset within us.
(14:31):
What are some other things?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (14:33):
Um, so I was thinking about in preparation
for this interview, I wasthinking about resources that
have really helped me.
Um, there is a book that I readin the first semester of my
counseling program that it's notan academic book.
It's written for a generalaudience.
And I thought it was excellent.
It's called The Lost Art ofListening: How Learning to
(14:56):
Listen Can ImproveRelationships.
And it is by Michael Norris andMartha Strauss.
And I want to read this, this isgoing to answer your question,
but I want to read the notesthat I made to myself on this
book.
Um, it says this this is thethesis of the book, uh
particularly the second part ofthe book is what I noted.
(15:19):
Good listening involves managingyour emotions in relation to the
person you're listening to.
When you're listening tosomeone, it inevitably brings up
emotions in you.
Though you need to be aware ofyour emotions, you have to
suspend them while you listen.
That's essentially whatnon-judgment is.
(15:41):
You can't be defensive.
Though people are not entitledto do whatever they want, they
are entitled to their emotions.
This was like life-changing forme.
If you're the kind of friend andfamily member you want to be,
you'll allow people to tell youwhat they're feeling without
telling them they're wrong.
And then I made a note tomyself, I'm over here crunching
(16:02):
in the corner of how wrong I'vebeen about that for an untold
number of years.
So why is listening hard?
Because it brings up your ownstuff.
For good or bad.
It brings up your own stuff.
And you have to be aware thatyour own stuff is getting
brought up and hold it over hereto just be present with the
(16:24):
person that you're listening to.
Right?
That's a whole nother level ofself-awareness.
For sure.
And that's why I think listeningis so hard, is because we're not
even sometimes aware of the waysthat we're being triggered,
yeah, for lack of a better word,when somebody else is talking,
much less are we trying to likelet me suspend this over here so
(16:46):
that I can make sure I fullyunderstand before I respond.
So this is active listening.
I use this all the time in theclient with the clients that I'm
working with, especially if I'mworking with a couple, right?
Like, if if I'm working with youand your husband, I will
literally like say, I will giveyou a stick and be like,
Kimberly, you get to talk.
(17:07):
Rob, you don't get to talk.
Because we need to make surethat we're both fully present
with her.
You'll get your turn to talk,but right now it's on her.
Because if we don't have thosekinds of crutches, we will
inevitably just jump in and wehaven't taken the time to
understand because we've got ourown stuff bubbling up that we're
trying to deal with.
SPEAKER_02 (17:29):
That's so good.
I'm sitting.
I love the visual, even justthought of you put the emotions
over here for now.
Like you've got to have thewherewithal and emotional
self-awareness, like you said,to even understand that that's
what's happening and what'scoming up and being able to put
(17:51):
it over here.
SPEAKER_01 (17:53):
And those are important.
Like that may be some of yourown work that you need to
reflect on and process on ortalk to a friend about, right?
SPEAKER_03 (18:00):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (18:01):
But in the moment, you've got to be in the moment.
With the person.
With the person.
SPEAKER_02 (18:05):
Do you think, switching context a little bit,
do you think that a person cantalk about their own stuff too
much, though, to where they staystuck in a cycle?
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (18:16):
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And that's why we're all sohesitant to do this hard work,
is because we've known thepeople that have gotten drowned
in it.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Over-identified with their pain,seem to you, you know.
I hear a lot of language of, youknow, some people get stuck
playing the victim and all ofthat.
(18:37):
That's true.
Absolutely.
There are people like that outthere.
And it doesn't mean that youcan't be a friend of them and
still listen really well, but ithas boundaries, right?
You listen to them for a timeand then you move on with your
life, right?
You're not entitled to like noone is entitled to endless
access to you, right?
We are we're all limited.
(18:59):
So we want to make sure we useour time and our energy well.
So sure, absolutely that can betaken advantage of.
And it's unfortunately somethingyou have to watch out for.
SPEAKER_02 (19:09):
What about the people in your life that are
just difficult?
Not not even it's not even thatthey're difficult to listen to,
but they are difficult becauseyou can't seem to get through to
them.
You can't.
I think I wrote something overhere.
The people who are closed off,like you know that they could
(19:31):
use help or deeper work or likeworking through their stuff, but
they're just super hesitant.
SPEAKER_01 (19:36):
Yeah.
And some people are just veryclosed off.
You know, maybe they kind ofhave avoidance tendencies, and
you can't force somebody to dothe work.
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (19:46):
Can you encourage them to?
You can encourage them to, butyou can't force them to.
What could encouraging someoneto do it look like?
SPEAKER_01 (19:53):
I think it would look like, you know what, you've
got you do have challenges, youdo have pain, and I don't think
you have to be stuck there.
I think there are resources forthat.
You can say things like that,right?
You can lead a horse to water,you can't force him to drink.
You can't force him to drink.
SPEAKER_02 (20:12):
What about though when that person not getting
further help for themselves isdirectly impacting you?
SPEAKER_01 (20:20):
Yeah, that happens.
SPEAKER_02 (20:21):
It does.
SPEAKER_01 (20:22):
It does happen.
That absolutely happens.
Happens all the time at marriagehelper.
100%.
100% every single day.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that's hard.
That's where that's where youhave to focus on the things that
you do have control over, whichoftentimes there are people in
our lives that even people inour lives that we're really
close to and whose decisionsaffect our life, we still can't
(20:46):
force them to do what they'renot ready to do.
So we focus, it's veryempowering to focus on the
things that you can control,which is yourself.
SPEAKER_02 (20:56):
Which parts of yourself do you believe are the
most important ones to focus on?
SPEAKER_01 (21:03):
I think focusing on the things that keep you from
showing up and being the personthat you want to be.
Right?
I think I know maybe I shouldn'tassume that it's like this for
everyone, but I kind of have amovie in my head of the person I
want to be.
What my interactions would looklike, how I would encourage
(21:24):
people.
And to the extent that I'm notmeasuring up to that, why is
that?
There's reasons for that.
Probably has to do with my pastexperiences and my past trauma.
So working on myself to get meto the point that I feel good
about me and how I'm showing up.
SPEAKER_02 (21:46):
Can you give us a real or imagined scenario of
that?
So what someone might bethinking of like, man, this is
my dream way I want to show up,what their current reality is,
and like practically what needsto change for them to get here
to there.
SPEAKER_01 (22:04):
Yeah.
Uh I see examples of this allthe time.
One recent example that I'veseen is I was I'm working with a
couple, I've worked with them alot, and right off the bat, he
was like, Oh, he and his wifeare in a difficult spot.
And he was like, Oh, I'veforgiven her.
Oh, I've forgiven her.
(22:24):
And just today, he was telling astory about how, well, I can't,
I can't get past what the thingsthat we've been through.
And I was like, could that besome forgiveness work?
He's like, I just keep goingback to what she was like in
this certain time in thiscertain situation.
And I was like, well, the onlyway forward is forward.
(22:47):
So if you're stuck in the past,you've got to find a way to let
go of that.
You can't change the past, it'salready happened.
So that sounds like someforgiveness work.
I am convinced, and this is hiswork, right?
Like I can't force this, but Iam convinced in this gentleman's
case, if he could find a way toforgive, it's not just his wife,
(23:09):
it's some stuff that went on inthe extended family as well.
But there are three or four keyfamily members that if he could
find a way to forgive, which Iunderstand is easier said than
done, but once he wants to dothat, he'll figure it out, he is
off to the races.
But right now it's reallybothering.
Him down because he's hurt.
(23:30):
And he's holding on to that.
SPEAKER_02 (23:32):
What is it you've mentioned a couple of times like
doing the work.
Doing the work.
SPEAKER_00 (23:39):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (23:40):
What does that mean for people who maybe are just
hearing that for the first time?
SPEAKER_01 (23:43):
Yeah.
It's a great question because Ido hear that a lot.
And and I was slowing downrecently to think long enough to
try to think about what doesthat mean?
And I think it is stopping longenough to take a look at those
parts of yourself that arewounded and are affecting the
way you show up in your lifepresently, keeping you from
(24:06):
being the person that you wantto be, which is hard.
It can bring up shame.
We naturally are inclined toavoid pain.
Uh shame is real pain.
So we'll avoid it.
So we have to create safe placesto look at those things that
have happened and those parts ofourselves, parts of ourselves
(24:26):
that feel wounded, that feellike there's a deficit there.
SPEAKER_00 (24:32):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (24:33):
And look at that, not for the purpose of hash
rehashing the past, because youhave to move on, right?
You have to move on.
But just long enough to do whatyou can do.
All you can do is all you cando, as David Matthews says.
And sometimes that just lookslike acknowledging that that
hurts.
Uh writing a letter and askingfor forgiveness, probably not
(24:58):
sending the letter to theperson.
Um, because it's all about yourown inner processes and closing
out those things that feelunresolved.
SPEAKER_02 (25:10):
Why would you recommend not sending the
letter?
SPEAKER_01 (25:14):
There are some instances where it would be
appropriate, but I think moretimes than not, it's just gonna
open up some stuff that's hardto deal with.
And it's it's almost forcing afamily member to change in a way
that they didn't ask for, andyou have no indication that
(25:34):
they're ready for.
Interesting.
And it's really about your owninternal peace.
SPEAKER_02 (25:43):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That is, I mean, that's aconcept we talk about several,
we've talked about several timestoo, uh, at Marriage Helper, in
terms of like, don't do thingsto calm your own anxiety or for
like that are gonna just not endup being good for the
relationship.
Or and that's one that'shonestly always, I mean, Joe and
(26:04):
I have even gone back and forthabout this somewhat, because
he'll tell, he'll um, he'll usethe example of like, if
something happened 20 years agoand you've never told your
spouse about it, well, why bringit up now if you don't feel
guilty about it?
And I think I always just goback to, well, I would feel
guilty about it.
Like I just know that might bethe answer for you.
SPEAKER_01 (26:22):
If it's keeping you, and I I think I've even heard
him say if it's if it'sinfluencing the way that you're
showing up for your spouse, thenmaybe you should tell.
SPEAKER_02 (26:30):
Then maybe you should tell.
Right.
But it's also always been adifficult thing for me because
the truth shall set you shallset you free.
Like that's a Christianprinciple that I'm always like,
well, then I always have to livein truth and should, or when I
read, uh, you know, if there'sif your brother has anything
against you, you should godirectly to them and work it
out.
And so there's been things likeI haven't done, I haven't done
(26:52):
this yet, but last year I'vebeen processing for a couple of
months now, like end of lastyear mostly, of like, man, I
feel like there's been severalpeople in my life that things
didn't end the way I wanted themto with that relationship or
whatever.
And so I kind of have beenwanting to go on like this
apology tour, um, not like aliteral tour, but like
(27:14):
contacting several of thosepeople and like talking it out.
But I have if something keepsstopping me.
There's a part of me that thinksit'll get it'll it's the right
thing to do.
I don't know why I feel likeit's the right thing to do, but
I'm just like, I feel like it'snot a bad thing to do.
SPEAKER_01 (27:31):
I think it could be different too if you're asking
for forgiveness versus seekingtelling someone else that you
forgive them.
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (27:45):
Yeah.
Seeking for someone else to besafe.
SPEAKER_01 (27:48):
Because I had it's interesting that you say that.
I had a friend reach out to meover text, trying to remember
when this happened, recently, inthe last five years.
And she said, Hey, I'm doingsome sort of exercise.
I'm doing an inventory of mylife, and I'm at the part where
(28:08):
I'm making amends.
And I'm reaching out to peoplethat I don't feel like I left on
great terms with.
And I don't feel good aboutwhere we left.
This was a friend from college,and I hadn't seen her in 20
years.
Wow.
And she described some thingsthat were going on in her life
(28:31):
at that point that made herparticularly vulnerable.
And I knew about some of thatstuff, but I was like, I thought
back on it and I was like, youknow, we didn't we didn't end
particularly well.
There were some difficult thingsthat happened.
And that's pretty cool that shereached out and wanted the
(28:51):
benefit of just saying, Hey, Ithink I need to ask for your
forgiveness.
It wasn't anything that waskeeping me up at night, but I
was like, that does close out aloop for me.
And that I was I had never hadanybody reach out, I think, with
that level of humility before.
Was it a text?
It was a text.
Yeah, she lives in another stateand everything.
SPEAKER_02 (29:12):
And you received it well.
Yeah.
I mean, I feel like she hit thejackpot sending it to you as
well.
I guess I feel like you're verypersonal.
SPEAKER_01 (29:20):
I think I was a little bit almost stunned
because I don't know that I'veever had another experience like
that before or since.
But she really, I don't think,was wanting anything from me.
Just like, hey, this will be apart of my, I'm seeking peace
for myself.
SPEAKER_02 (29:36):
Even if you hadn't responded at all or well to it,
it was something she would havebeen happy that she had done.
I mean, I know you can't knowthat, but it would be, it would
maybe that's like the thebarometer of this.
Like if no matter how the otherperson responds, is this
something I will be glad I did,regardless?
SPEAKER_01 (29:53):
That's it.
That's it.
This person doesn't owe meanything.
I run into that a lot atMarriage Helper, where like a
standing spouse will make thisnice gesture towards their
reluctant spouse, and thenthey're mad when they don't get
a certain response.
And I'm like, a gift is a gift,it means there's no strings
attached.
So if you can, in good faith,reach out and say, This is where
I am, I need to ask for yourforgiveness, and this will help
(30:18):
me to feel better no matter theresult, then I think that could
be a good thing to do.
I think it's the other wayaround where people run into
trouble.
And I I do think it can bedifferent with spouses versus
other relationships.
In the private practice workthat I do, I've dealt with
several mothers who've got stuffgoing on with their adult
(30:39):
daughters and several daughtersthat have stuff going on with
their moms.
And they feel like they're theoffended party.
And my answer for that in the inthe instances that I've dealt
with it is I I don't think youneed to rehash this.
I don't think you get to, Ithink you're gonna have to
(30:59):
forgive and move on.
And have boundaries, right?
This person has shown you wherethey are, at least right now,
doesn't mean they're never gonnachange.
But they've shown you where theyare right now.
And you may or may not have anyidea of what's playing into
that, but I don't think you cango and ask them to change and
(31:22):
act like, hey, I can't be happyin life until you change in this
way.
Yeah.
I've just not seen that go well.
Right.
Yeah.
Spouses are harder, right?
Because this is you, this isyour literal teammate in life.
So there probably needs to be asafe way to address the the
perceived offenses there.
SPEAKER_02 (31:40):
What about when a friend comes to you and they are
processing a big life decision?
Like, I'm unhappy in mymarriage, I want to leave.
What should we do?
Yeah.
How can you be their therapistwithout being their therapist?
SPEAKER_00 (32:00):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (32:01):
That's really hard.
I mean, most of the people thatI am good enough friends with
that they would come to me withthat sort of thing.
I I think I can trust them tosay, tell me about you, you
wouldn't, you wouldn't beprocess, you wouldn't be trying
to come to terms with thatdecision unless there was a lot
of pain.
So I would say, tell me aboutthat pain.
(32:22):
And then I might, after I hadlistened good and well, I might
say something along the linesof, what do you think this
decision would get you if youwere going to leave your spouse?
How do you think you wouldbenefit from that?
How do you think that would bereally hurtful and harmful?
(32:45):
Right?
I do think there's a this wouldhave to be a good friend, right?
But does that actually solveyour problem?
I don't know if I would ask thatdirectly, but let's let's talk
through this.
Is this actually gonna get youto a better place or is it gonna
create more pain?
SPEAKER_02 (33:07):
How do you do it without coming across like you
should do what makes you happy?
SPEAKER_01 (33:14):
No, there is a lot of that.
There is a lot of that.
In the instances of that that Ihave in my life, both personally
and professionally, usually theperson who feels like they need
to leave their spouse, if that'sthe example we're going with,
usually feels like they've beenabused or they've been taken
(33:38):
advantage of.
And that's really, really hard.
Um, because you know, we don'twant people to just sit there
and tolerate mistreatment,right?
If there's no change of heart.
If it's persistent.
I think people accuse otherpeople of being abusive when
yes, they were mean, but was ita pattern?
Is it persistent?
(33:58):
Is it unrepented?
That's not always as clear.
But if somebody really does feellike they're being mistreated,
then that's hard.
I mean, that's really hard.
That's where and and you're notgonna come up with an answer in
like one day, right?
You're not gonna have a30-minute conversation at
(34:20):
Starbucks, and it's like wefigured this out and we know
what to do.
SPEAKER_03 (34:25):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (34:25):
But I think what can make things much better for
people that are in thatsituation where they feel like
their marriage is in such a badspot that they might need to
leave, is to have safe outletsfor being seen and being heard.
Their spouse probably isn't thatperson for them right now.
That's the problem.
So if they can have other peoplethat they can attach to in a
(34:48):
healthy way, it may actuallyhelp their marriage.
Right?
Because they have a safe placeto be heard and they can get
some perspective from someonewho loves them and isn't telling
them what to do, is trying tohelp them figure out what the
wisest course of action is, butisn't trying to correct them.
SPEAKER_02 (35:06):
What phrases would you avoid?
SPEAKER_01 (35:11):
Well, I mean, I'm I'm pretty triggered by the do
whatever makes you happy.
Now, part of that comes from myworldview where I think if we
lead with what makes us happy, Idon't think we're gonna be true
to what we're called to do inlife.
Um so whatever makes you happy.
I do think when people are inpain, we hear about this at
(35:34):
Marriage Helper all the time.
I think that people say, youdon't deserve to be in that much
pain.
You don't deserve to be treatedthat way.
I think that that can be saidout of a place of genuine
concern, but we we we don'treally know.
And deserve deserve is a wordthat makes me nervous anyway,
because I do think we deserve tobe treated with respect and
(35:56):
dignity.
Do we deserve to have a happy,healthy, problem-free life?
I don't actually don't think wedeserve that, right?
I think we were actuallypromised that we would have a
lot of trials.
So I think anything that goesinto to that realm makes me a
little bit nervous.
And that is informed by my ownbeliefs and values.
So somebody, if your primarybelief is I want to be happy and
(36:19):
I deserve to be happy, then thatwould be a different
conversation.
SPEAKER_02 (36:27):
And then we're back to the moral.
Then we're back to the moral.
What did you say?
Yeah, couldn't confrontation,right?
Because I I mean, yeah, samehere.
Do what makes you happy.
If that's what someone wasseeking and they were coming to
meet, they probably wouldn't, Idon't know, they probably
wouldn't come to me for advicebecause they'd be like.
SPEAKER_01 (36:46):
Don't do what makes you happy.
Well, we do, I think, seek out,and I think sometimes it's
subconscious, but we seek outwho we think is just gonna
validate what we were alreadygonna do.
So I think a good friend canchallenge you.
Faithful are the wounds of afriend, right?
I think that's a verbs.
SPEAKER_02 (37:04):
I saw a meme or whatever on Instagram, I think
it was just last night, and itsaid me searching for the
perfect friend to share thisreally petty situation with.
And I'm like, I so got it.
Cause it's like, yeah, there aresome days where I'm like, who's
the right one?
Who is gonna definitely notconfront me?
Yeah, who can I vent to thisabout?
(37:24):
And they'll be like, oh my gosh.
And they will not call me on myBS, which isn't a good, which is
not a good thing.
Um, but yeah, I mean, I thinkthat's hard when, especially for
people who maybe do have thatChristian background and belief
where we want everyone to livein like Jesus' kingdom on earth
(37:49):
here and now.
And so we want people toexperience like freedom and
salvation and thing.
And so when they're trying, whenthey might be making a decision
that's we feel like is going totake them further away from
that, that's the part where forme, I think it's so hard to just
I have to learn how to listenbetter.
Fix me, Meredith.
unknown (38:10):
Fix me.
SPEAKER_01 (38:10):
Yeah.
One thing that I would say is Ithink most of the time when
we're approached by a friendwho's feeling some sort of way
and needs to be heard, it's notone of those big life-altering
things.
It's like, hey, my work isreally hard and my boss doesn't
understand me.
unknown (38:29):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (38:29):
And or, you know, or I'm really struggling with,
like, I had hoped to haveanother child by now and I can't
get pregnant or whatever.
Like these aren't moral things,but these are things that we try
to jump in and correct.
That's true.
Right?
Because if you if you listen,when the typical person says,
Hey, my job isn't really workingout right now and I'm really
stressed, they will immediatelyget a bunch of advice.
(38:51):
Like, oh, I can get you areferral at my work, and oh,
well, did you ever do that?
And this reminds me of that timethat I didn't like my job.
Instead of just being like, Ohgosh, that's really hard.
Tell me about that.
Not trying to correct it, justbeing there.
Yeah, right.
Um, what do you feel like isgonna be the next step for you,
(39:12):
right?
Because they are alreadyinclined in a certain direction,
right?
And an example like that.
SPEAKER_00 (39:18):
That's a good point.
SPEAKER_01 (39:19):
And so they really are just needing somebody to
validate, yes, that's reallyhard.
SPEAKER_00 (39:25):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (39:25):
No, there aren't any really clear answers.
Yes, you have a hopeful future.
SPEAKER_00 (39:30):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (39:31):
Right?
All of those kinds of things.
So occasionally there are thesecircumstances where there might
be something moral where we needto confront.
I don't, at least for me, in mypersonal friend group, that's
not the day-to-day.
Right.
Or even like my husband will tryto say something that frustrates
(39:52):
him, and I'll think, well,that's not worth getting
frustrated about.
But it's frustrating to him, andit might just be like, you know,
they don't, they haven'tinstalled the street lights yet
on our street or something.
I'm like, yeah, first worldproblem, but if he's frustrated
about that, he gets to befrustrated about that.
Who am I to try to correct thatemotion?
Yeah.
All I can do is just validatethat yes, that's that's
(40:14):
frustrating.
Yeah.
It's frustrating to turn into adark neighborhood or whatever.
SPEAKER_00 (40:19):
Yeah.
What do you think about AI?
AI.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (40:25):
Well, I have come to probably in the last six months
or so, come to kind of depend onChat GPT.
I think it can be helpful.
Um and I don't think AI willever replace real human
relationships.
(40:46):
And I'm encouraged by that.
What do you use Chat GPT for?
It's basically my new Google.
Yeah.
So I use it for all kinds ofthings.
But it's even before we startedrecording, I said I used it
yesterday because somebodybrought to my attention a bill
that is up for a vote in theTennessee state legislature.
(41:09):
And I tried to read the bill,and it was a bunch of legalese
that I did not understand.
Yeah.
And I asked ChatGPT to summarizefor me what are the arguments
for and against this bill.
The bill is 40-something pageslong.
It's indiscernible to somebodylike me without legal training.
(41:32):
And ChatGPT gave what felt likea very helpful um kind of
summation of why a person wouldbe for or against this bill that
affects my field.
So that's helpful.
You know, I don't have anyfriends that have read the
(41:53):
46-page bill or pros and cons.
Right.
Right.
In terms of processing how thepossible results of that bill
could affect me and how thatmakes me feel.
Chat GPT can't do that.
I've got to do that with a reallive person.
Okay.
However, though, people do tryand use Chat GPT.
(42:14):
And yeah, people do try to dothat.
And Chat GPT tries.
It'll give me, it'll be like,what a great question.
I'm so glad you asked that.
Which is something a human wouldsay, right?
A human who's listening well.
SPEAKER_02 (42:26):
Yeah.
ChatGPT is always there for you.
It will always listen.
It will always tell you what youwant to hear.
I'm so concerned about it.
SPEAKER_01 (42:36):
Yeah, but it feels empty, right?
I agree.
Like Chat GPT and I don't haveshared history of things that
we've done together and waysthat we've grown together, not
in our relationship.
SPEAKER_02 (42:52):
You will give it two years.
No, I totally hear you.
SPEAKER_01 (42:57):
Yeah.
Um, I've I've talked about thiswith other counselors because
Chat GPT gives really goodpsychology advice.
SPEAKER_00 (43:07):
Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_01 (43:09):
I had a client, and this has been probably a year
ago, a marriage helper clientthat asked ChatGP uh GPT a
question about how to save amarriage.
And he copied and pasted theresponse to me, and it was
really good.
And it included things like, youknow, like our stuff.
As Kimberly Holmes says.
Exactly.
(43:29):
It only knows because of us.
But he had collated somedifferent sources, and it was
actually really good.
But I think people are alwaysgoing to want a real live person
to process through informationis only information, and it's
helpful.
But what we're really called tois relationship.
SPEAKER_02 (43:52):
You're not nervous about the future of therapy and
coaching.
SPEAKER_01 (43:56):
I'm really not.
Maybe I'm I'm I'm listening toother people who are saying I
think people are always going towant a real life human to talk
to.
SPEAKER_00 (44:04):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (44:05):
And they're going to want the benefit of looking
somebody else in the face.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (44:10):
Yeah.
I hope so.
Uh I asked yesterday on mysocial media, I did a bit of a
poll, like a three-questionpoll.
So my first question was, howmany of you use AI?
About 70% of people said thatthey used it.
The second one, the secondquestion I asked was, What do
you use it for?
And there was a lot of like homedecor ideas, travel planning,
(44:34):
um, budgets, things like that.
But then there recipes.
I use it for recipes.
Recipes.
Yeah.
But then there were several thatsaid, I use it for therapy.
SPEAKER_00 (44:44):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (44:44):
And then my third question was, which one do you
use?
And Chat GPT was the was thenumber one one.
But I uh I'm just starting tosee the trend of so there was
someone who I saw on Facebook.
This was a this is a verywell-known person, and they were
(45:04):
really down on themselves aftera workout or something.
And they went to Chat GPT andthey typed in how they felt
about themselves.
And Chat GPT spit back outsomething that was like, This is
your inner child talking, likethis is what you need to
remember, be confident.
And this person posted this andwas like, Chat GPT got it.
(45:26):
Like, this is how I felt, thisis what.
Needed to hear.
I sat there and cried when Iread this response.
And when I saw that post, I waslike shocked.
SPEAKER_01 (45:38):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (45:39):
Um, I and I think part of my shock was how many
people are relying on Chat GPTfor something like this.
SPEAKER_03 (45:49):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (45:50):
And what is that gonna do to human relationships?
I don't it cannot replace ahuman relationship, but it's up
at 2 a.m.
It's not gonna judge you.
Yeah, it's gonna like it doesn'thave a bad day.
It doesn't have a bad day,always available, low cost, and
just low-hanging fruit of likehow many people are just gonna
(46:11):
start getting used to tellingChatGPT their like Chat GPT
becoming their journal, but ittalks back.
You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_00 (46:20):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (46:22):
And how much have we devalued our human relationships
that like the the person youwere talking about, like their
first thought was, I need to askChat GPT about this because
maybe he he or she didn't have aperson that they could ask in
that moment.
Right.
(46:42):
I think we have to protectourselves.
I think that's part of our workand how we care for ourselves in
this time is making sure that wecultivate relationships and
value relationships to theextent that because that would
be a really good reason to reachout to a friend, like, oh, I'm
leaving the gym and I don't feelgood about myself.
Right.
(47:02):
That's one of those examples ofa time that you could reach out
to a friend and there wouldn'tbe, I don't think that's a
highly consequential discussionin terms of morals, but like
just to get encouragement fromsomeone.
Yeah, 100%.
SPEAKER_02 (47:17):
100%.
Because relationships are hard.
SPEAKER_01 (47:20):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (47:21):
And I think when we turn to something else to help
us process things or help usfeel value or whatever, it takes
that beauty away from arelationship that could develop.
SPEAKER_01 (47:34):
Relationships are rewarding partly because they
cost you something.
There's self-sacrifice involved,right?
There's learning and growingtogether, which we're never
gonna we're never gonnasacrifice on behalf of ChatGPT.
It doesn't cost us a thing.
Right?
So I think that really devaluesthe role of Chat GPT when we
(47:58):
haven't, it's not like we'vestruggled together, right?
It's a very one-sidedrelationship because in like
even in the example that yougave, that person is not gonna
be like, you know what, ChatGPT,you're a great encourager.
I just want to remind you thatyou were there for me when I
needed you.
Like it doesn't have that giveand take of a healthy
relationship.
SPEAKER_02 (48:17):
I mean, in some ways, in some ways it does,
because you teach it how toreply to you.
So if you wanted it to keepdoing stuff like that, you'd be
like, yes, perfect answer.
Or like, thank you so much.
Because that's how it learns.
Yeah.
You and me and whatever.
SPEAKER_01 (48:37):
Yeah.
But there's still not that likeendurance and rigor and like
we've stuck it out through thehighs and the lows.
Right.
That I think come from exactlythat that make relationships
really rewarding.
SPEAKER_02 (48:50):
I think that it makes the feedback that Chat GPT
gives you, me, like whoever'sasking it, just um uh what's the
word when something uh doesn'tisn't worth anything.
Uh not worthless.
I mean, I guess because you usethe word, but it makes it less.
I do think that it devalues whatit tells you.
(49:15):
Because in my, like if it wereto say something like that to
me, in my, which it has in thepast, like there have been times
I've used Chat GPT a little morelike that.
And I get that feedback, andit's like, and when I first read
it, I'm like, oh, like that istrue about me.
But then I'm like, wait aminute, it doesn't know me.
SPEAKER_03 (49:32):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (49:32):
And so then it's like it's filling a void, but
it's not truly filling the void.
It doesn't really know you.
Because it doesn't really knowme.
Your people would, and it's notreal.
So it like cheapens it.
It cheapens it, yeah.
It cheapens that thing, yeah,that feedback.
(49:53):
Whereas if like my husband hadsaid that, it would be like, oh,
that's like super meaningful.
SPEAKER_01 (49:58):
Or well, and I remember hearing a preacher say
years ago that like when you gettowards the end of your life,
and if you've been in a longmarriage, whatever that looks
like for you, and you evaluatethat long term, what will amaze
(50:18):
you is I never would haveguessed the joys that we would
see together and the trials thatwe have sustained together.
We endured way more than Ithought we ever could have.
And we've seen way more joy andgoodness than I ever would have
imagined we could have.
Right.
That's only the kind of thingyou can say when you've lived
your life with people.
SPEAKER_00 (50:39):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (50:40):
Right?
I just don't see how you wouldget to the end of your life and
say that about technology.
There's no emotion, there's nottwo-way emotion.
SPEAKER_00 (50:49):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (50:50):
Right.
Right.
So don't marry an AI.
Number one.
SPEAKER_01 (50:56):
Takeaway number one.
And we could be headed there.
I don't know.
SPEAKER_02 (51:00):
Oh, yeah.
Well, we won't get into that.
SPEAKER_01 (51:05):
That's another podcast.
SPEAKER_02 (51:07):
That's another podcast.
What would be um, as we wrap up,Meredith, I always love talking
with you.
Thank you.
Thank you for having me.
I enjoy the conversations aswell.
Yeah, 100.
I mean, I do too.
I feel like I'm always learningthings, taking notes, wanting
to, wanting to have your likesteady, grounded emotional
(51:29):
processing power.
That's what I try and gather andgain from you.
Channel my inner meredith inthose moments.
What would you say for you isthe way that you want to show up
in your day-to-day life?
SPEAKER_01 (51:45):
Hmm.
Um, I'm gonna borrow from thework of Carl Rogers.
I took some notes on him.
He says that good therapy iscongruent.
There's unconditional positiveregard, and there's empathy.
So congruence to me would justbe authenticity.
There's no gap between who I sayI am and how I show up.
(52:08):
So congruence, unconditional,positive regard.
We've talked a lot about that inthis interview.
That's the non-judgmentalism.
Just always assuming the bestand then empathy, compassion.
I like the word compassion evenbetter than empathy.
SPEAKER_02 (52:24):
What are the things that you believe are important
for you to do on a daily orweekly basis that help you
continue to show up that way?
SPEAKER_01 (52:33):
Yeah.
I've got to have um I've got tohave an outlet for my own stuff.
So for me, that looks likeprayer and prayer journaling.
Uh, so that my sense of securityis anchored outside of any other
person.
To me, that's the key.
(52:54):
Uh my security is immovablebecause in my case, I would
anchor that in God.
So whatever kind of curve ballsall these crazy humans out here
throw me, I'm anchored there.
SPEAKER_00 (53:07):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (53:08):
And that is a daily, weekly practice of um staying
connected to God.
So for me, that would look likeprayer and staying in the
scripture, like keeping my mindguarded in those ways.
Which is kind of the churchyanswer, but sometimes the
churchy answer has somelegitimacy to it.
SPEAKER_00 (53:28):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (53:29):
Sometimes there's a reason for it.
SPEAKER_02 (53:30):
Right.
I love that.
That's great.
That's a good daily habitencouragement for people, I
believe, as well.
SPEAKER_00 (53:36):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (53:38):
I don't know about you, but I always love my
conversations with Meredithbecause she's just so grounded.
And I learn from her every timethat we talk.
Here are my takeaways that Itook for myself from today's
episode.
First of all, everything isendurable.
(53:58):
When we take that mindset intoour own situations as well as
situations that are happeningwith our family and friends, I
believe it can help us to seethe future for them, see hope in
situations that are hopeless.
Things aren't always easy, buteverything is endurable.
You will make it through to theother side and you will see that
(54:19):
you are stronger than youthought you were.
Secondly, I loved this visualimage of when you're talking
with someone and the emotionsstart to stir in you, whatever
those are, mentally thinkingabout putting them over here,
putting them to the side,putting them where they're just
like in a bucket over next toyou, so that you can stay
(54:42):
focused on the person who'stalking with you.
Not letting those emotions fix,try and fix things, or letting
those emotions affect you andyour ability to be present with
this other person in the moment.
That's where so many situationsget off track because we begin
to make it about us, we begin toget defensive, we begin to think
that this person's making thewrong decision, we start getting
(55:05):
riled up, we respond to them outof our emotions, but they just
want to be heard.
Feeling heard is the closestthing to feeling loved.
How can we listen to the peoplein our lives even more?
And then, third and finally, Ilove how we ask this question at
(55:29):
the end of every episode.
What is the way that you want toshow up?
And what are the things thatyou're doing that can help you
show up that way?
I want you to think about thosethis week.
How do you want to show up?
How do you want to show up whenyour friend is coming to you
asking you for advice, ventingto you about their issues?
How is it you want to show up?
(55:50):
And what is it that you need todo now so that you can show up
in that way that you want to?
Until next week, stay strong.
How can you be a therapist without being a
therapist?
Here's the thing.
I'm not actually talking aboutdoing therapy for your friends
and family, but there are timeswhere your friends, your family
members, a coworker, they cometo you and they start talking to
you and kind of treating youlike their therapist, in the
(01:48):
sense of they want advice, theywant feedback, they want
comfort, and they're coming toyou for that.
Well, first of all, that's greatbecause it shows some great
qualities about you.
But secondly, the question thatyou probably have is how am I
supposed to handle thesesituations?
I'm not a therapist, how do Ihandle it?
That's what we're talking aboutin today's episode.
Today I'm speaking with MeredithBall.
(02:10):
She is an LPC, she's also amarriage helper certified coach,
and we are talking about all thethings, how to be a therapist
without actually being atherapist.
Let's dive in to today'sepisode.
So we're gonna talk today abouta couple things.
I'm gonna throw you a curveballlater.
(02:31):
Are you gonna tell me what thecurveball is?
No.
But I'm real excited to get toit.
It's gonna be really great.
But to start, we're gonna talkwith how to be a therapist
without being a therapist.
Caveat for the listeners morethan anything.
Is we are is that we are nottalking about how people should
like actually try and be a realtherapist.
SPEAKER_01 (02:54):
There are times that you really do call a therapist.
SPEAKER_02 (02:56):
Yes, 100%.
But when you're in thosesituations where it's like my
friends are bringing me alltheir problems, they're talking
about their marriage issues,they're trying to like they're
bringing a lot of grief andtrauma, and I'm not a trained
therapist.
How do I handle this situationwhen people are coming to me
with really heavy problems, butI don't really know how to help
(03:18):
them navigate through it.
SPEAKER_01 (03:19):
It to me, it all comes down to listening.
Listening really, really well.
And I think what we're all dyingfor is to be heard.
So it sounds like a pat answer,maybe, but I think there's a lot
there in terms of listeningreally well.
SPEAKER_02 (03:43):
So let's talk about how do you listen really well
and how do you continue tolisten really well when you feel
like the other person won't stoptalking.
SPEAKER_01 (03:55):
What may really let some people off the hook here is
I don't necessarily know thatthere are a ton of solutions or
a ton of situations that we arein where we're our role is to
find the solution.
In fact, I think a lot of theproblems that our friends would
bring to us don't have asolution.
It's a hard season of life thatthey get to walk through.
(04:17):
And it will be easier for themand better for them when they
don't have to walk alone.
So keeping that top of mind, I'mnot called to fix this problem.
I'm not called to solve thisproblem.
I'm not even sure if thisproblem is fixable.
This problem is endurable.
And my role is to walk alongsidethis person really well.
(04:42):
So what does that look like?
Listening and reflectingfeelings, validating feelings,
accepting feelings.
Um I think that's really goodlistening.
And I think that's the role thatwe can play.
SPEAKER_02 (04:59):
So I'm thinking through uh this is not this is
not my situation, this is not asituation that one of my
specific friends is dealingwith.
It's one of my friends isdealing with it about their
friends.
Okay.
Let's follow this rabbit trailfor a minute.
So um two degrees of separation.
Two degrees of separation, andI'm gonna change the story some.
(05:20):
So uh you have a friend wherethere's like you just said,
there's not a ton of problemsthat people bring us that have a
solution, or at least it's notour role to fix that solution.
But what do you do if you have afriend who's so clearly in a
devastating situation that theyare continuing to make the wrong
(05:42):
choice for?
So what if you have a friend whois actively dating a married
man, knows he's married, hasbeen dating him for years, and
is like, oh, but they're youknow, they're gonna end up
divorcing their wife one day,they're gonna end up being with
me.
Yeah.
And it's so clearly a terriblesituation for them.
SPEAKER_00 (06:04):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (06:05):
And for that, and of, you know, of course, for
that other marriage.
But if you're the friend thatthat person is coming to, how do
you even like process thatpersonally, listen, empathize
with their feelings withoutwanting to fix it, without
wanting to shake them and say,what you're doing is causing you
(06:25):
harm.
SPEAKER_01 (06:26):
Yeah.
There there is a place for moralconfrontation.
And I think there's two bucketsthat I would put that in.
The first is, you know, maybesomeone is coming to me with
something that feels like aviolation of my beliefs and
values, but maybe there is somesubjectivity there.
(06:48):
Maybe there is some fluidity.
I think listening, the way I wasjust defining it, like listening
not to solve problems or giveadvice, feels threatening to a
lot of us that maybe grew up ina, like for lack of a better
word, like a really conservativeevangelical church environment,
because we had instruction foreverything.
And we believed that the costcould be really high if we made
(07:11):
a wrong turn in life.
And I'm not saying there's notsomething to that.
I'm just saying I do thinkthere's some legalism there
that's not always helpful,right?
Um, we can all think of those, Ithink in church I've heard it
called those first, first order,second order, third order order
levels of importance, right?
Maybe there's a few things thatwe would stake our life on, and
(07:32):
there's other things that we cangive people the freedom to have
their own beliefs.
So there is that.
And I think we have to be verycautious about what we consider
to be something on the level ofmoral confrontation.
Maybe that's not always there.
Now, the example that you weregiving is someone who's dating a
married man.
Okay, that would be on the levelof moral confrontation according
(07:53):
to my beliefs and values, right?
So when I come up on that kindof stuff, and that does come up
with my clients sometimes, and Ihave to be careful that I don't
impose my own beliefs onclients, but if it does seem
like something that could bereally damaging, even
emotionally, mentally damagingin the long run for my client or
(08:16):
for somebody that that he or sheis talking about, I will ask
permission.
Can I give can I have yourpermission to tell you something
that that's that is kind ofconfrontational and might be
kind of hard?
Right?
So then I get their permission.
And and I'll say things like,you know, just this could be
(08:37):
kind of hard to hear.
This might make you feeldefensive.
I could understand if it did,because it is confrontation.
So don't feel like you have torespond.
Right?
Take some time and process it.
Right?
I just don't know if I could bea good friend and not express to
you that this feels like aviolation of moral principles
(08:59):
that that I think are importantto you as my friend.
Right?
It would depend on who you'respeaking to as well.
There are some friends that Iknow they would care less about.
Certain things that feel like amoral violation to me.
So I would choose my words, youknow, I would consider and I
would choose my words carefully.
SPEAKER_02 (09:14):
I want to go back to this concept that you just
brought up of moralconfrontation and legalism.
SPEAKER_00 (09:20):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (09:21):
So yes, I also grew up in a grew up in a
conservative evangelical homeand world, like church, yeah,
middle school, high school,college.
Right.
Um and I even as I'm thinkingthrough my own filter and when
friends or family do come to meand they have uh things that
(09:46):
they bring up or that they'resharing, I do think I tend to
have a reaction, what you weretalking about of like there was
instruction for me foreverything growing up.
Like, there's a right way to dothings, there's a wrong way to
do things, and you don't want todo it the wrong way, you need to
do it the right way.
So I was like, I always I jokethat me and my sister were both
(10:07):
pastors' kids, but I was thepastor's kids that followed all
the rules, and she was therebel.
So she was the one who like yeahI didn't feel as constrained as
I think I do.
Yeah.
But I do think I tend to bringthat into when someone brings
something to me.
Like if there's an extendedfamily member who talks about uh
(10:30):
how his girlfriend asked if theywanted to move in together.
And like my first visceralreaction is like, you can't,
that's wrong.
Like you can't do that.
And I do think that it keeps mefrom listening, yeah, because
I'm thinking about the rules,which I do believe are
(10:50):
important, yeah, but maybe I'mthinking of the rules more than
I'm thinking about the listeningor even the relationship.
SPEAKER_01 (10:57):
Yeah, I get that.
Because old habits die hard.
Old habits die hard.
And you grew up in anenvironment where there was a
rule for everything, yeah.
In a good and a bad way.
It wasn't even like a good,better, and best way to do
things.
In a lot of cases, it was it wasblack and white.
There was a right way to handlea certain situation and there
was a wrong way to handle acertain situation.
So I catch myself doing thatsometimes.
(11:18):
I think my therapist traininghas helped me in that.
If I'm talking to the personyou're talking about that wants
to move in with their with hisgirlfriend, I would say, okay,
tell tell me why that makessense for you, right?
And I can at least get a goodunderstanding.
Probably his reasons for wantingto do that have nothing to do
with the things that I'mconcerned about.
(11:41):
Like that feels like some sortof a moral violation.
And he might say, you know,well, my lease is expiring and,
you know, we have thesefinancial considerations or
whatever.
And that doesn't mean it's theright thing for him to do, but
at least you've got anunderstanding of where he's
coming from.
And he's, I think, more likelyto hear you out if you've hurt
(12:01):
him out first, right?
Here's where my concerns withthe about this would be.
I hear where you're coming from.
And I hear why on a certainlevel that could make a lot of
sense for you.
Here's where I'm coming from.
And what why that would concernme if I were in your shoes.
SPEAKER_02 (12:18):
One of the things that we talk about with the pies
now are the inputs and theoutputs.
So one of the inputs underintellectual attraction is uh,
and the inputs are things thatwe can control.
So the four inputs forintellectual attraction, putting
myself on the spot here,curiosity and openness is one of
them.
So how curious we are towardsothers.
(12:40):
Um, perspective taking is uh andcritical thinking is another
one.
Intellectual humility is a thirdone, and then like purposeful
learning.
So kind of curating the contentthat you see.
And so as you're talking aboutthis, I'm thinking, and the way
that that the and the way thatthat shows up, it helps us show
up different intellectually, ispeople feel safe with us, like
psychologically safe.
(13:01):
They build we build trust withothers because they feel like we
aren't just always looking outfor our best interests, we're
also looking out for theirs,different things like that.
Yeah, and so that's kind of whatI'm hearing you even talking
about right now is like it'sthat curiosity, it's that
perspective taking, whichhonestly can be so hard to do.
SPEAKER_01 (13:20):
Yeah.
Curiosity over judgment.
And that was part of my therapytraining.
And you know, even if you don'tagree with what someone is
doing, which you're allowed todo, even if you don't agree with
what someone is doing, you willhave a kinder, more
compassionate perspective if youtake the time to understand why
(13:43):
they're doing what they'redoing.
It's almost certainly notnefarious on their part.
It's not like they're saying,how can I live unwisely and
immorally, right?
There's some there's some partof their decision process that
they probably do have differentpriorities and different values
than you, and that's why there'sa disagreement.
But take the time to understandwhy why that is and what's going
(14:07):
into their decision-makingprocess.
SPEAKER_02 (14:10):
So we've talked about moral, like the a moral
confrontation.
So something that can so I'mtrying to think now through
okay, what are the things thatcan prevent us from actually
hearing another person whenthey're coming to us and being
able to be there for them andand to help them feel heard.
So one of them might be like alegalism mindset, a moral
confrontation mindset within us.
(14:31):
What are some other things?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (14:33):
Um, so I was thinking about in preparation
for this interview, I wasthinking about resources that
have really helped me.
Um, there is a book that I readin the first semester of my
counseling program that it's notan academic book.
It's written for a generalaudience.
And I thought it was excellent.
It's called The Lost Art ofListening: How Learning to
(14:56):
Listen Can ImproveRelationships.
And it is by Michael Norris andMartha Strauss.
And I want to read this, this isgoing to answer your question,
but I want to read the notesthat I made to myself on this
book.
Um, it says this this is thethesis of the book, uh
particularly the second part ofthe book is what I noted.
(15:19):
Good listening involves managingyour emotions in relation to the
person you're listening to.
When you're listening tosomeone, it inevitably brings up
emotions in you.
Though you need to be aware ofyour emotions, you have to
suspend them while you listen.
That's essentially whatnon-judgment is.
(15:41):
You can't be defensive.
Though people are not entitledto do whatever they want, they
are entitled to their emotions.
This was like life-changing forme.
If you're the kind of friend andfamily member you want to be,
you'll allow people to tell youwhat they're feeling without
telling them they're wrong.
And then I made a note tomyself, I'm over here crunching
(16:02):
in the corner of how wrong I'vebeen about that for an untold
number of years.
So why is listening hard?
Because it brings up your ownstuff.
For good or bad.
It brings up your own stuff.
And you have to be aware thatyour own stuff is getting
brought up and hold it over hereto just be present with the
(16:24):
person that you're listening to.
Right?
That's a whole nother level ofself-awareness.
For sure.
And that's why I think listeningis so hard, is because we're not
even sometimes aware of the waysthat we're being triggered,
yeah, for lack of a better word,when somebody else is talking,
much less are we trying to likelet me suspend this over here so
(16:46):
that I can make sure I fullyunderstand before I respond.
So this is active listening.
I use this all the time in theclient with the clients that I'm
working with, especially if I'mworking with a couple, right?
Like, if if I'm working with youand your husband, I will
literally like say, I will giveyou a stick and be like,
Kimberly, you get to talk.
(17:07):
Rob, you don't get to talk.
Because we need to make surethat we're both fully present
with her.
You'll get your turn to talk,but right now it's on her.
Because if we don't have thosekinds of crutches, we will
inevitably just jump in and wehaven't taken the time to
understand because we've got ourown stuff bubbling up that we're
trying to deal with.
SPEAKER_02 (17:29):
That's so good.
I'm sitting.
I love the visual, even justthought of you put the emotions
over here for now.
Like you've got to have thewherewithal and emotional
self-awareness, like you said,to even understand that that's
what's happening and what'scoming up and being able to put
(17:51):
it over here.
SPEAKER_01 (17:53):
And those are important.
Like that may be some of yourown work that you need to
reflect on and process on ortalk to a friend about, right?
SPEAKER_03 (18:00):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (18:01):
But in the moment, you've got to be in the moment.
With the person.
With the person.
SPEAKER_02 (18:05):
Do you think, switching context a little bit,
do you think that a person cantalk about their own stuff too
much, though, to where they staystuck in a cycle?
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (18:16):
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And that's why we're all sohesitant to do this hard work,
is because we've known thepeople that have gotten drowned
in it.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Over-identified with their pain,seem to you, you know.
I hear a lot of language of, youknow, some people get stuck
playing the victim and all ofthat.
(18:37):
That's true.
Absolutely.
There are people like that outthere.
And it doesn't mean that youcan't be a friend of them and
still listen really well, but ithas boundaries, right?
You listen to them for a timeand then you move on with your
life, right?
You're not entitled to like noone is entitled to endless
access to you, right?
We are we're all limited.
(18:59):
So we want to make sure we useour time and our energy well.
So sure, absolutely that can betaken advantage of.
And it's unfortunately somethingyou have to watch out for.
SPEAKER_02 (19:09):
What about the people in your life that are
just difficult?
Not not even it's not even thatthey're difficult to listen to,
but they are difficult becauseyou can't seem to get through to
them.
You can't.
I think I wrote something overhere.
The people who are closed off,like you know that they could
(19:31):
use help or deeper work or likeworking through their stuff, but
they're just super hesitant.
SPEAKER_01 (19:36):
Yeah.
And some people are just veryclosed off.
You know, maybe they kind ofhave avoidance tendencies, and
you can't force somebody to dothe work.
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (19:46):
Can you encourage them to?
You can encourage them to, butyou can't force them to.
What could encouraging someoneto do it look like?
SPEAKER_01 (19:53):
I think it would look like, you know what, you've
got you do have challenges, youdo have pain, and I don't think
you have to be stuck there.
I think there are resources forthat.
You can say things like that,right?
You can lead a horse to water,you can't force him to drink.
You can't force him to drink.
SPEAKER_02 (20:12):
What about though when that person not getting
further help for themselves isdirectly impacting you?
SPEAKER_01 (20:20):
Yeah, that happens.
SPEAKER_02 (20:21):
It does.
SPEAKER_01 (20:22):
It does happen.
That absolutely happens.
Happens all the time at marriagehelper.
100%.
100% every single day.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that's hard.
That's where that's where youhave to focus on the things that
you do have control over, whichoftentimes there are people in
our lives that even people inour lives that we're really
close to and whose decisionsaffect our life, we still can't
(20:46):
force them to do what they'renot ready to do.
So we focus, it's veryempowering to focus on the
things that you can control,which is yourself.
SPEAKER_02 (20:56):
Which parts of yourself do you believe are the
most important ones to focus on?
SPEAKER_01 (21:03):
I think focusing on the things that keep you from
showing up and being the personthat you want to be.
Right?
I think I know maybe I shouldn'tassume that it's like this for
everyone, but I kind of have amovie in my head of the person I
want to be.
What my interactions would looklike, how I would encourage
(21:24):
people.
And to the extent that I'm notmeasuring up to that, why is
that?
There's reasons for that.
Probably has to do with my pastexperiences and my past trauma.
So working on myself to get meto the point that I feel good
about me and how I'm showing up.
SPEAKER_02 (21:46):
Can you give us a real or imagined scenario of
that?
So what someone might bethinking of like, man, this is
my dream way I want to show up,what their current reality is,
and like practically what needsto change for them to get here
to there.
SPEAKER_01 (22:04):
Yeah.
Uh I see examples of this allthe time.
One recent example that I'veseen is I was I'm working with a
couple, I've worked with them alot, and right off the bat, he
was like, Oh, he and his wifeare in a difficult spot.
And he was like, Oh, I'veforgiven her.
Oh, I've forgiven her.
(22:24):
And just today, he was telling astory about how, well, I can't,
I can't get past what the thingsthat we've been through.
And I was like, could that besome forgiveness work?
He's like, I just keep goingback to what she was like in
this certain time in thiscertain situation.
And I was like, well, the onlyway forward is forward.
(22:47):
So if you're stuck in the past,you've got to find a way to let
go of that.
You can't change the past, it'salready happened.
So that sounds like someforgiveness work.
I am convinced, and this is hiswork, right?
Like I can't force this, but Iam convinced in this gentleman's
case, if he could find a way toforgive, it's not just his wife,
(23:09):
it's some stuff that went on inthe extended family as well.
But there are three or four keyfamily members that if he could
find a way to forgive, which Iunderstand is easier said than
done, but once he wants to dothat, he'll figure it out, he is
off to the races.
But right now it's reallybothering.
Him down because he's hurt.
(23:30):
And he's holding on to that.
SPEAKER_02 (23:32):
What is it you've mentioned a couple of times like
doing the work.
Doing the work.
SPEAKER_00 (23:39):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (23:40):
What does that mean for people who maybe are just
hearing that for the first time?
SPEAKER_01 (23:43):
Yeah.
It's a great question because Ido hear that a lot.
And and I was slowing downrecently to think long enough to
try to think about what doesthat mean?
And I think it is stopping longenough to take a look at those
parts of yourself that arewounded and are affecting the
way you show up in your lifepresently, keeping you from
(24:06):
being the person that you wantto be, which is hard.
It can bring up shame.
We naturally are inclined toavoid pain.
Uh shame is real pain.
So we'll avoid it.
So we have to create safe placesto look at those things that
have happened and those parts ofourselves, parts of ourselves
(24:26):
that feel wounded, that feellike there's a deficit there.
SPEAKER_00 (24:32):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (24:33):
And look at that, not for the purpose of hash
rehashing the past, because youhave to move on, right?
You have to move on.
But just long enough to do whatyou can do.
All you can do is all you cando, as David Matthews says.
And sometimes that just lookslike acknowledging that that
hurts.
Uh writing a letter and askingfor forgiveness, probably not
(24:58):
sending the letter to theperson.
Um, because it's all about yourown inner processes and closing
out those things that feelunresolved.
SPEAKER_02 (25:10):
Why would you recommend not sending the
letter?
SPEAKER_01 (25:14):
There are some instances where it would be
appropriate, but I think moretimes than not, it's just gonna
open up some stuff that's hardto deal with.
And it's it's almost forcing afamily member to change in a way
that they didn't ask for, andyou have no indication that
(25:34):
they're ready for.
Interesting.
And it's really about your owninternal peace.
SPEAKER_02 (25:43):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That is, I mean, that's aconcept we talk about several,
we've talked about several timestoo, uh, at Marriage Helper, in
terms of like, don't do thingsto calm your own anxiety or for
like that are gonna just not endup being good for the
relationship.
Or and that's one that'shonestly always, I mean, Joe and
(26:04):
I have even gone back and forthabout this somewhat, because
he'll tell, he'll um, he'll usethe example of like, if
something happened 20 years agoand you've never told your
spouse about it, well, why bringit up now if you don't feel
guilty about it?
And I think I always just goback to, well, I would feel
guilty about it.
Like I just know that might bethe answer for you.
SPEAKER_01 (26:22):
If it's keeping you, and I I think I've even heard
him say if it's if it'sinfluencing the way that you're
showing up for your spouse, thenmaybe you should tell.
SPEAKER_02 (26:30):
Then maybe you should tell.
Right.
But it's also always been adifficult thing for me because
the truth shall set you shallset you free.
Like that's a Christianprinciple that I'm always like,
well, then I always have to livein truth and should, or when I
read, uh, you know, if there'sif your brother has anything
against you, you should godirectly to them and work it
out.
And so there's been things likeI haven't done, I haven't done
(26:52):
this yet, but last year I'vebeen processing for a couple of
months now, like end of lastyear mostly, of like, man, I
feel like there's been severalpeople in my life that things
didn't end the way I wanted themto with that relationship or
whatever.
And so I kind of have beenwanting to go on like this
apology tour, um, not like aliteral tour, but like
(27:14):
contacting several of thosepeople and like talking it out.
But I have if something keepsstopping me.
There's a part of me that thinksit'll get it'll it's the right
thing to do.
I don't know why I feel likeit's the right thing to do, but
I'm just like, I feel like it'snot a bad thing to do.
SPEAKER_01 (27:31):
I think it could be different too if you're asking
for forgiveness versus seekingtelling someone else that you
forgive them.
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (27:45):
Yeah.
Seeking for someone else to besafe.
SPEAKER_01 (27:48):
Because I had it's interesting that you say that.
I had a friend reach out to meover text, trying to remember
when this happened, recently, inthe last five years.
And she said, Hey, I'm doingsome sort of exercise.
I'm doing an inventory of mylife, and I'm at the part where
(28:08):
I'm making amends.
And I'm reaching out to peoplethat I don't feel like I left on
great terms with.
And I don't feel good aboutwhere we left.
This was a friend from college,and I hadn't seen her in 20
years.
Wow.
And she described some thingsthat were going on in her life
(28:31):
at that point that made herparticularly vulnerable.
And I knew about some of thatstuff, but I was like, I thought
back on it and I was like, youknow, we didn't we didn't end
particularly well.
There were some difficult thingsthat happened.
And that's pretty cool that shereached out and wanted the
(28:51):
benefit of just saying, Hey, Ithink I need to ask for your
forgiveness.
It wasn't anything that waskeeping me up at night, but I
was like, that does close out aloop for me.
And that I was I had never hadanybody reach out, I think, with
that level of humility before.
Was it a text?
It was a text.
Yeah, she lives in another stateand everything.
SPEAKER_02 (29:12):
And you received it well.
Yeah.
I mean, I feel like she hit thejackpot sending it to you as
well.
I guess I feel like you're verypersonal.
SPEAKER_01 (29:20):
I think I was a little bit almost stunned
because I don't know that I'veever had another experience like
that before or since.
But she really, I don't think,was wanting anything from me.
Just like, hey, this will be apart of my, I'm seeking peace
for myself.
SPEAKER_02 (29:36):
Even if you hadn't responded at all or well to it,
it was something she would havebeen happy that she had done.
I mean, I know you can't knowthat, but it would be, it would
maybe that's like the thebarometer of this.
Like if no matter how the otherperson responds, is this
something I will be glad I did,regardless?
SPEAKER_01 (29:53):
That's it.
That's it.
This person doesn't owe meanything.
I run into that a lot atMarriage Helper, where like a
standing spouse will make thisnice gesture towards their
reluctant spouse, and thenthey're mad when they don't get
a certain response.
And I'm like, a gift is a gift,it means there's no strings
attached.
So if you can, in good faith,reach out and say, This is where
I am, I need to ask for yourforgiveness, and this will help
(30:18):
me to feel better no matter theresult, then I think that could
be a good thing to do.
I think it's the other wayaround where people run into
trouble.
And I I do think it can bedifferent with spouses versus
other relationships.
In the private practice workthat I do, I've dealt with
several mothers who've got stuffgoing on with their adult
(30:39):
daughters and several daughtersthat have stuff going on with
their moms.
And they feel like they're theoffended party.
And my answer for that in the inthe instances that I've dealt
with it is I I don't think youneed to rehash this.
I don't think you get to, Ithink you're gonna have to
(30:59):
forgive and move on.
And have boundaries, right?
This person has shown you wherethey are, at least right now,
doesn't mean they're never gonnachange.
But they've shown you where theyare right now.
And you may or may not have anyidea of what's playing into
that, but I don't think you cango and ask them to change and
(31:22):
act like, hey, I can't be happyin life until you change in this
way.
Yeah.
I've just not seen that go well.
Right.
Yeah.
Spouses are harder, right?
Because this is you, this isyour literal teammate in life.
So there probably needs to be asafe way to address the the
perceived offenses there.
SPEAKER_02 (31:40):
What about when a friend comes to you and they are
processing a big life decision?
Like, I'm unhappy in mymarriage, I want to leave.
What should we do?
Yeah.
How can you be their therapistwithout being their therapist?
SPEAKER_00 (32:00):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (32:01):
That's really hard.
I mean, most of the people thatI am good enough friends with
that they would come to me withthat sort of thing.
I I think I can trust them tosay, tell me about you, you
wouldn't, you wouldn't beprocess, you wouldn't be trying
to come to terms with thatdecision unless there was a lot
of pain.
So I would say, tell me aboutthat pain.
(32:22):
And then I might, after I hadlistened good and well, I might
say something along the linesof, what do you think this
decision would get you if youwere going to leave your spouse?
How do you think you wouldbenefit from that?
How do you think that would bereally hurtful and harmful?
(32:45):
Right?
I do think there's a this wouldhave to be a good friend, right?
But does that actually solveyour problem?
I don't know if I would ask thatdirectly, but let's let's talk
through this.
Is this actually gonna get youto a better place or is it gonna
create more pain?
SPEAKER_02 (33:07):
How do you do it without coming across like you
should do what makes you happy?
SPEAKER_01 (33:14):
No, there is a lot of that.
There is a lot of that.
In the instances of that that Ihave in my life, both personally
and professionally, usually theperson who feels like they need
to leave their spouse, if that'sthe example we're going with,
usually feels like they've beenabused or they've been taken
(33:38):
advantage of.
And that's really, really hard.
Um, because you know, we don'twant people to just sit there
and tolerate mistreatment,right?
If there's no change of heart.
If it's persistent.
I think people accuse otherpeople of being abusive when
yes, they were mean, but was ita pattern?
Is it persistent?
(33:58):
Is it unrepented?
That's not always as clear.
But if somebody really does feellike they're being mistreated,
then that's hard.
I mean, that's really hard.
That's where and and you're notgonna come up with an answer in
like one day, right?
You're not gonna have a30-minute conversation at
(34:20):
Starbucks, and it's like wefigured this out and we know
what to do.
SPEAKER_03 (34:25):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (34:25):
But I think what can make things much better for
people that are in thatsituation where they feel like
their marriage is in such a badspot that they might need to
leave, is to have safe outletsfor being seen and being heard.
Their spouse probably isn't thatperson for them right now.
That's the problem.
So if they can have other peoplethat they can attach to in a
(34:48):
healthy way, it may actuallyhelp their marriage.
Right?
Because they have a safe placeto be heard and they can get
some perspective from someonewho loves them and isn't telling
them what to do, is trying tohelp them figure out what the
wisest course of action is, butisn't trying to correct them.
SPEAKER_02 (35:06):
What phrases would you avoid?
SPEAKER_01 (35:11):
Well, I mean, I'm I'm pretty triggered by the do
whatever makes you happy.
Now, part of that comes from myworldview where I think if we
lead with what makes us happy, Idon't think we're gonna be true
to what we're called to do inlife.
Um so whatever makes you happy.
I do think when people are inpain, we hear about this at
(35:34):
Marriage Helper all the time.
I think that people say, youdon't deserve to be in that much
pain.
You don't deserve to be treatedthat way.
I think that that can be saidout of a place of genuine
concern, but we we we don'treally know.
And deserve deserve is a wordthat makes me nervous anyway,
because I do think we deserve tobe treated with respect and
(35:56):
dignity.
Do we deserve to have a happy,healthy, problem-free life?
I don't actually don't think wedeserve that, right?
I think we were actuallypromised that we would have a
lot of trials.
So I think anything that goesinto to that realm makes me a
little bit nervous.
And that is informed by my ownbeliefs and values.
So somebody, if your primarybelief is I want to be happy and
(36:19):
I deserve to be happy, then thatwould be a different
conversation.
SPEAKER_02 (36:27):
And then we're back to the moral.
Then we're back to the moral.
What did you say?
Yeah, couldn't confrontation,right?
Because I I mean, yeah, samehere.
Do what makes you happy.
If that's what someone wasseeking and they were coming to
meet, they probably wouldn't, Idon't know, they probably
wouldn't come to me for advicebecause they'd be like.
SPEAKER_01 (36:46):
Don't do what makes you happy.
Well, we do, I think, seek out,and I think sometimes it's
subconscious, but we seek outwho we think is just gonna
validate what we were alreadygonna do.
So I think a good friend canchallenge you.
Faithful are the wounds of afriend, right?
I think that's a verbs.
SPEAKER_02 (37:04):
I saw a meme or whatever on Instagram, I think
it was just last night, and itsaid me searching for the
perfect friend to share thisreally petty situation with.
And I'm like, I so got it.
Cause it's like, yeah, there aresome days where I'm like, who's
the right one?
Who is gonna definitely notconfront me?
Yeah, who can I vent to thisabout?
(37:24):
And they'll be like, oh my gosh.
And they will not call me on myBS, which isn't a good, which is
not a good thing.
Um, but yeah, I mean, I thinkthat's hard when, especially for
people who maybe do have thatChristian background and belief
where we want everyone to livein like Jesus' kingdom on earth
(37:49):
here and now.
And so we want people toexperience like freedom and
salvation and thing.
And so when they're trying, whenthey might be making a decision
that's we feel like is going totake them further away from
that, that's the part where forme, I think it's so hard to just
I have to learn how to listenbetter.
Fix me, Meredith.
unknown (38:10):
Fix me.
SPEAKER_01 (38:10):
Yeah.
One thing that I would say is Ithink most of the time when
we're approached by a friendwho's feeling some sort of way
and needs to be heard, it's notone of those big life-altering
things.
It's like, hey, my work isreally hard and my boss doesn't
understand me.
unknown (38:29):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (38:29):
And or, you know, or I'm really struggling with,
like, I had hoped to haveanother child by now and I can't
get pregnant or whatever.
Like these aren't moral things,but these are things that we try
to jump in and correct.
That's true.
Right?
Because if you if you listen,when the typical person says,
Hey, my job isn't really workingout right now and I'm really
stressed, they will immediatelyget a bunch of advice.
(38:51):
Like, oh, I can get you areferral at my work, and oh,
well, did you ever do that?
And this reminds me of that timethat I didn't like my job.
Instead of just being like, Ohgosh, that's really hard.
Tell me about that.
Not trying to correct it, justbeing there.
Yeah, right.
Um, what do you feel like isgonna be the next step for you,
(39:12):
right?
Because they are alreadyinclined in a certain direction,
right?
And an example like that.
SPEAKER_00 (39:18):
That's a good point.
SPEAKER_01 (39:19):
And so they really are just needing somebody to
validate, yes, that's reallyhard.
SPEAKER_00 (39:25):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (39:25):
No, there aren't any really clear answers.
Yes, you have a hopeful future.
SPEAKER_00 (39:30):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (39:31):
Right?
All of those kinds of things.
So occasionally there are thesecircumstances where there might
be something moral where we needto confront.
I don't, at least for me, in mypersonal friend group, that's
not the day-to-day.
Right.
Or even like my husband will tryto say something that frustrates
(39:52):
him, and I'll think, well,that's not worth getting
frustrated about.
But it's frustrating to him, andit might just be like, you know,
they don't, they haven'tinstalled the street lights yet
on our street or something.
I'm like, yeah, first worldproblem, but if he's frustrated
about that, he gets to befrustrated about that.
Who am I to try to correct thatemotion?
Yeah.
All I can do is just validatethat yes, that's that's
(40:14):
frustrating.
Yeah.
It's frustrating to turn into adark neighborhood or whatever.
SPEAKER_00 (40:19):
Yeah.
What do you think about AI?
AI.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (40:25):
Well, I have come to probably in the last six months
or so, come to kind of depend onChat GPT.
I think it can be helpful.
Um and I don't think AI willever replace real human
relationships.
(40:46):
And I'm encouraged by that.
What do you use Chat GPT for?
It's basically my new Google.
Yeah.
So I use it for all kinds ofthings.
But it's even before we startedrecording, I said I used it
yesterday because somebodybrought to my attention a bill
that is up for a vote in theTennessee state legislature.
(41:09):
And I tried to read the bill,and it was a bunch of legalese
that I did not understand.
Yeah.
And I asked ChatGPT to summarizefor me what are the arguments
for and against this bill.
The bill is 40-something pageslong.
It's indiscernible to somebodylike me without legal training.
(41:32):
And ChatGPT gave what felt likea very helpful um kind of
summation of why a person wouldbe for or against this bill that
affects my field.
So that's helpful.
You know, I don't have anyfriends that have read the
(41:53):
46-page bill or pros and cons.
Right.
Right.
In terms of processing how thepossible results of that bill
could affect me and how thatmakes me feel.
Chat GPT can't do that.
I've got to do that with a reallive person.
Okay.
However, though, people do tryand use Chat GPT.
(42:14):
And yeah, people do try to dothat.
And Chat GPT tries.
It'll give me, it'll be like,what a great question.
I'm so glad you asked that.
Which is something a human wouldsay, right?
A human who's listening well.
SPEAKER_02 (42:26):
Yeah.
ChatGPT is always there for you.
It will always listen.
It will always tell you what youwant to hear.
I'm so concerned about it.
SPEAKER_01 (42:36):
Yeah, but it feels empty, right?
I agree.
Like Chat GPT and I don't haveshared history of things that
we've done together and waysthat we've grown together, not
in our relationship.
SPEAKER_02 (42:52):
You will give it two years.
No, I totally hear you.
SPEAKER_01 (42:57):
Yeah.
Um, I've I've talked about thiswith other counselors because
Chat GPT gives really goodpsychology advice.
SPEAKER_00 (43:07):
Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_01 (43:09):
I had a client, and this has been probably a year
ago, a marriage helper clientthat asked ChatGP uh GPT a
question about how to save amarriage.
And he copied and pasted theresponse to me, and it was
really good.
And it included things like, youknow, like our stuff.
As Kimberly Holmes says.
Exactly.
(43:29):
It only knows because of us.
But he had collated somedifferent sources, and it was
actually really good.
But I think people are alwaysgoing to want a real live person
to process through informationis only information, and it's
helpful.
But what we're really called tois relationship.
SPEAKER_02 (43:52):
You're not nervous about the future of therapy and
coaching.
SPEAKER_01 (43:56):
I'm really not.
Maybe I'm I'm I'm listening toother people who are saying I
think people are always going towant a real life human to talk
to.
SPEAKER_00 (44:04):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (44:05):
And they're going to want the benefit of looking
somebody else in the face.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (44:10):
Yeah.
I hope so.
Uh I asked yesterday on mysocial media, I did a bit of a
poll, like a three-questionpoll.
So my first question was, howmany of you use AI?
About 70% of people said thatthey used it.
The second one, the secondquestion I asked was, What do
you use it for?
And there was a lot of like homedecor ideas, travel planning,
(44:34):
um, budgets, things like that.
But then there recipes.
I use it for recipes.
Recipes.
Yeah.
But then there were several thatsaid, I use it for therapy.
SPEAKER_00 (44:44):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (44:44):
And then my third question was, which one do you
use?
And Chat GPT was the was thenumber one one.
But I uh I'm just starting tosee the trend of so there was
someone who I saw on Facebook.
This was a this is a verywell-known person, and they were
(45:04):
really down on themselves aftera workout or something.
And they went to Chat GPT andthey typed in how they felt
about themselves.
And Chat GPT spit back outsomething that was like, This is
your inner child talking, likethis is what you need to
remember, be confident.
And this person posted this andwas like, Chat GPT got it.
(45:26):
Like, this is how I felt, thisis what.
Needed to hear.
I sat there and cried when Iread this response.
And when I saw that post, I waslike shocked.
SPEAKER_01 (45:38):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (45:39):
Um, I and I think part of my shock was how many
people are relying on Chat GPTfor something like this.
SPEAKER_03 (45:49):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (45:50):
And what is that gonna do to human relationships?
I don't it cannot replace ahuman relationship, but it's up
at 2 a.m.
It's not gonna judge you.
Yeah, it's gonna like it doesn'thave a bad day.
It doesn't have a bad day,always available, low cost, and
just low-hanging fruit of likehow many people are just gonna
(46:11):
start getting used to tellingChatGPT their like Chat GPT
becoming their journal, but ittalks back.
You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_00 (46:20):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (46:22):
And how much have we devalued our human relationships
that like the the person youwere talking about, like their
first thought was, I need to askChat GPT about this because
maybe he he or she didn't have aperson that they could ask in
that moment.
Right.
(46:42):
I think we have to protectourselves.
I think that's part of our workand how we care for ourselves in
this time is making sure that wecultivate relationships and
value relationships to theextent that because that would
be a really good reason to reachout to a friend, like, oh, I'm
leaving the gym and I don't feelgood about myself.
Right.
(47:02):
That's one of those examples ofa time that you could reach out
to a friend and there wouldn'tbe, I don't think that's a
highly consequential discussionin terms of morals, but like
just to get encouragement fromsomeone.
Yeah, 100%.
SPEAKER_02 (47:17):
100%.
Because relationships are hard.
SPEAKER_01 (47:20):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (47:21):
And I think when we turn to something else to help
us process things or help usfeel value or whatever, it takes
that beauty away from arelationship that could develop.
SPEAKER_01 (47:34):
Relationships are rewarding partly because they
cost you something.
There's self-sacrifice involved,right?
There's learning and growingtogether, which we're never
gonna we're never gonnasacrifice on behalf of ChatGPT.
It doesn't cost us a thing.
Right?
So I think that really devaluesthe role of Chat GPT when we
(47:58):
haven't, it's not like we'vestruggled together, right?
It's a very one-sidedrelationship because in like
even in the example that yougave, that person is not gonna
be like, you know what, ChatGPT,you're a great encourager.
I just want to remind you thatyou were there for me when I
needed you.
Like it doesn't have that giveand take of a healthy
relationship.
SPEAKER_02 (48:17):
I mean, in some ways, in some ways it does,
because you teach it how toreply to you.
So if you wanted it to keepdoing stuff like that, you'd be
like, yes, perfect answer.
Or like, thank you so much.
Because that's how it learns.
Yeah.
You and me and whatever.
SPEAKER_01 (48:37):
Yeah.
But there's still not that likeendurance and rigor and like
we've stuck it out through thehighs and the lows.
Right.
That I think come from exactlythat that make relationships
really rewarding.
SPEAKER_02 (48:50):
I think that it makes the feedback that Chat GPT
gives you, me, like whoever'sasking it, just um uh what's the
word when something uh doesn'tisn't worth anything.
Uh not worthless.
I mean, I guess because you usethe word, but it makes it less.
I do think that it devalues whatit tells you.
(49:15):
Because in my, like if it wereto say something like that to
me, in my, which it has in thepast, like there have been times
I've used Chat GPT a little morelike that.
And I get that feedback, andit's like, and when I first read
it, I'm like, oh, like that istrue about me.
But then I'm like, wait aminute, it doesn't know me.
SPEAKER_03 (49:32):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (49:32):
And so then it's like it's filling a void, but
it's not truly filling the void.
It doesn't really know you.
Because it doesn't really knowme.
Your people would, and it's notreal.
So it like cheapens it.
It cheapens it, yeah.
It cheapens that thing, yeah,that feedback.
(49:53):
Whereas if like my husband hadsaid that, it would be like, oh,
that's like super meaningful.
SPEAKER_01 (49:58):
Or well, and I remember hearing a preacher say
years ago that like when you gettowards the end of your life,
and if you've been in a longmarriage, whatever that looks
like for you, and you evaluatethat long term, what will amaze
(50:18):
you is I never would haveguessed the joys that we would
see together and the trials thatwe have sustained together.
We endured way more than Ithought we ever could have.
And we've seen way more joy andgoodness than I ever would have
imagined we could have.
Right.
That's only the kind of thingyou can say when you've lived
your life with people.
SPEAKER_00 (50:39):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (50:40):
Right?
I just don't see how you wouldget to the end of your life and
say that about technology.
There's no emotion, there's nottwo-way emotion.
SPEAKER_00 (50:49):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (50:50):
Right.
Right.
So don't marry an AI.
Number one.
SPEAKER_01 (50:56):
Takeaway number one.
And we could be headed there.
I don't know.
SPEAKER_02 (51:00):
Oh, yeah.
Well, we won't get into that.
SPEAKER_01 (51:05):
That's another podcast.
SPEAKER_02 (51:07):
That's another podcast.
What would be um, as we wrap up,Meredith, I always love talking
with you.
Thank you.
Thank you for having me.
I enjoy the conversations aswell.
Yeah, 100.
I mean, I do too.
I feel like I'm always learningthings, taking notes, wanting
to, wanting to have your likesteady, grounded emotional
(51:29):
processing power.
That's what I try and gather andgain from you.
Channel my inner meredith inthose moments.
What would you say for you isthe way that you want to show up
in your day-to-day life?
SPEAKER_01 (51:45):
Hmm.
Um, I'm gonna borrow from thework of Carl Rogers.
I took some notes on him.
He says that good therapy iscongruent.
There's unconditional positiveregard, and there's empathy.
So congruence to me would justbe authenticity.
There's no gap between who I sayI am and how I show up.
(52:08):
So congruence, unconditional,positive regard.
We've talked a lot about that inthis interview.
That's the non-judgmentalism.
Just always assuming the bestand then empathy, compassion.
I like the word compassion evenbetter than empathy.
SPEAKER_02 (52:24):
What are the things that you believe are important
for you to do on a daily orweekly basis that help you
continue to show up that way?
SPEAKER_01 (52:33):
Yeah.
I've got to have um I've got tohave an outlet for my own stuff.
So for me, that looks likeprayer and prayer journaling.
Uh, so that my sense of securityis anchored outside of any other
person.
To me, that's the key.
(52:54):
Uh my security is immovablebecause in my case, I would
anchor that in God.
So whatever kind of curve ballsall these crazy humans out here
throw me, I'm anchored there.
SPEAKER_00 (53:07):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (53:08):
And that is a daily, weekly practice of um staying
connected to God.
So for me, that would look likeprayer and staying in the
scripture, like keeping my mindguarded in those ways.
Which is kind of the churchyanswer, but sometimes the
churchy answer has somelegitimacy to it.
SPEAKER_00 (53:28):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (53:29):
Sometimes there's a reason for it.
SPEAKER_02 (53:30):
Right.
I love that.
That's great.
That's a good daily habitencouragement for people, I
believe, as well.
SPEAKER_00 (53:36):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (53:38):
I don't know about you, but I always love my
conversations with Meredithbecause she's just so grounded.
And I learn from her every timethat we talk.
Here are my takeaways that Itook for myself from today's
episode.
First of all, everything isendurable.
(53:58):
When we take that mindset intoour own situations as well as
situations that are happeningwith our family and friends, I
believe it can help us to seethe future for them, see hope in
situations that are hopeless.
Things aren't always easy, buteverything is endurable.
You will make it through to theother side and you will see that
(54:19):
you are stronger than youthought you were.
Secondly, I loved this visualimage of when you're talking
with someone and the emotionsstart to stir in you, whatever
those are, mentally thinkingabout putting them over here,
putting them to the side,putting them where they're just
like in a bucket over next toyou, so that you can stay
(54:42):
focused on the person who'stalking with you.
Not letting those emotions fix,try and fix things, or letting
those emotions affect you andyour ability to be present with
this other person in the moment.
That's where so many situationsget off track because we begin
to make it about us, we begin toget defensive, we begin to think
that this person's making thewrong decision, we start getting
(55:05):
riled up, we respond to them outof our emotions, but they just
want to be heard.
Feeling heard is the closestthing to feeling loved.
How can we listen to the peoplein our lives even more?
And then, third and finally, Ilove how we ask this question at
(55:29):
the end of every episode.
What is the way that you want toshow up?
And what are the things thatyou're doing that can help you
show up that way?
I want you to think about thosethis week.
How do you want to show up?
How do you want to show up whenyour friend is coming to you
asking you for advice, ventingto you about their issues?
How is it you want to show up?
(55:50):
And what is it that you need todo now so that you can show up
in that way that you want to?
Until next week, stay strong.
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