September 24, 2024 • 39 mins
In this episode of The Wayfinder Show, host Luis Hernandez interviews Matthew Fornaro, an experienced attorney specializing in complex commercial litigation and business law. The discussion covers common legal issues faced by small and medium-sized businesses, the importance of having proper legal documents, and practical advice on integrating a legal team early in the business lifecycle. They also explore the role of AI in the legal field, emphasizing the need for responsible usage. This episode provides valuable insights for entrepreneurs on how to prepare legally to avoid potential pitfalls.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Anyone can sue anyone at anytime for anything.
So lawsuits are always apossibility, no matter what
business you're in or what areaof business you're in, what
level of business you're on orwhatever.
I mean, it's just part ofreality.
That is, at some point, ifyou're in business, you're going
to probably encounter a lawsuitin some way.
(00:29):
Welcome to The Wayfinder Showwith Luis Hernandez, where
guests discuss the why and howof making changes that led them
down a more authentic path orallow them to level up in some
area of their life.
Our goal is to dig deep andprovide not only knowledge, but
actionable advice to help youget from where you are to where
you want to be.
(00:50):
Come join us and find the way toyour dream life.\ Welcome back
to the Wayfinder show.
I am your host, Louis Hernandez.
And today I'm here with MatthewFornaro.
Matthew has been a law attorneyserving South Florida, including
(01:13):
Corral Springs and Parklandsince 2003.
Before starting his law firm, hewas an attorney at two
prestigious Amlaw 200 law firmswhere he focused on civil
litigation.
Today, Matthew practices complexcommercial litigation, including
contract disputes.
He's also a member of theFlorida Bar and the District of
(01:36):
Columbia Bar.
He also practices constructionlaw, intellectual property law,
homeowner and condominiumassociation representation, and
he drafts and revises businessdocuments, including the
formation of businessorganizations.
So with that, Matthew, welcometo the show.
(01:56):
Thank you for having me, Larry.
Glad to be here.
Yeah, I'm glad to have you here,too.
I'm kind of looking at this asan opportunity to get a really
experienced, smart lawyer hereand ask him for some free
business, uh, law advice, whichI don't get very often, so.
It happens all the time.
I'm glad to do it.
Yeah.
Thank you.
So before we get into thatthough, Matthew, tell us a
(02:17):
little bit about yourself.
Well, you know, I'm my, uh, aswe were discussing before we
started, I'm almost a Floridanative.
I've been here since I was sixyears old.
So I kind of knew growing up, Iwanted to be an attorney.
I liked watching like thepeople's court and cool things
like that.
So I went to undergrad and Itook political science to set up
for law school.
I went to law school.
(02:38):
When I came out, I worked.
Among other places, a two big amlaw, 200 law firms.
And I decided after a while thatI wanted to kind of, uh, go out
and do my own thing and focus onhelping small and medium sized
businesses because my dad was asmall business owner and I saw
the issues that he had, and Ididn't really think that that
(03:00):
was.
Being served by uh, our legalcommunity.
So that's what my focus hasbeen.
I did that about nine years agoand I've been doing that ever
since.
Neat.
So what, what do you see as thedifferences when you were doing
civil litigation?
Was that primarily for bigcorporations, I'm assuming, or
insurance companies?
Yeah, it was for bigcorporations.
(03:21):
Yeah.
And so what, what did you see asthe differences, um, between
that and the small business?
You know, the, the focus onunderstanding your client as far
as a small business versus a bigcorporation, I think what isn't
there a lot in that when yourepresent a big business or a
(03:45):
big corporation or a bank or aninsurance company.
I mean, you have essentially,even though, you know, you got
to be responsible to your stuff.
You have an unlimited war chest,and you can have a winner take
all mentality.
When you represent a smallbusiness, you have to be
cognizant of the business'sneeds, the business's cash flow,
(04:07):
what they can afford to do, whatthey can't afford to do, and how
And I'll see You know, there'sdifferent levels of solutions
and different types of solutionsfor a small business that maybe
aren't there for a largebusiness.
Yeah, like, do, do you find, um,you know, I'm wondering as a
small business person most of mylife, like I, I don't, I've
(04:30):
often, you know, used, go, go onGoogle forms, Google legal
forms, right.
And use those to get started.
Right.
I'm not saying it's right.
I'm not saying I do that nowsaying I have done it and uh,
and I, I would assume that a bigcorporation is not going to do
that, right?
They're going to give you a callright from the beginning, make
(04:50):
sure everything's done right andtidied up my right.
That is correct.
Yes.
Yeah.
So, so what, um, so with that inmind, what are the troubles that
you see small business ownersget themselves into because they
probably didn't hire a lawyerright from the get go Yeah, you
know, a lot of small and mediumsized business legal problems
(05:14):
are completely avoidable and itgoes with the fact that as a
small business, you know, peoplethink of lawyers, accountants,
bankers, whatever, as a luxuryinstead of a necessity and as a
singular thing instead of ateam.
(05:36):
And the real approach that asmaller, medium sized business
should take.
Is that when they're planningtheir business, obviously, you'd
like to have a written businessplan.
That's a necessity.
But when you're putting yourbusiness together, you want to
make sure that you have a cadreof professionals that you can
rely on that will help you sothat you can focus on your
(05:58):
business and they can take allthe collateral decisions and
issues away from you and not youdon't have to worry about it.
And that's why you want to have.
You know, a business lawattorney, an accountant, a
banker, like an I.
T.
person, you know, that kind ofthing at your disposal is part
of a team to help you out.
Because a lot of times whenbusinesses start out, they only
(06:19):
think about attorneys as areactive solution to a problem
that pops up instead of aproactive solution for avoiding
issues.
So, like, for instance, ifyou're just talking about going
on Google to convert documents,that's.
Okay, but the issue with goingon the Internet looking for
(06:41):
stuff is that 100 percent theright answer is on the Internet
to any question.
However, 100 percent at the sametime, the wrong answer is on the
Internet to any question.
And if you don't have trainingand you don't know what's going
on, you don't know what's rightand what's wrong.
And that's why.
When you start a business, youwant to make sure if you're a
corporation, that you havebylaws, that you have articles
(07:03):
of incorporation.
If you're an LLC, that you havean operating agreement.
And that it's specificallytailored to your business and is
basically the road map of howyour business operates.
It says what your business doesand doesn't do, how it resolves
issues, who does what, who ownswhat, who pays what, et cetera.
And if you're just going on theinternet looking for stuff,
(07:24):
you're going to run intoproblems.
Like, for instance.
I had a client who runs a dogtraining business and it's
pretty successful and he came tome, obviously, after he started
this business and he had anissue with an employee and he
had an employment contract andhis company is located in Fort
Lauderdale and he pulled thisemployment contract off the
(07:47):
Internet.
And the employment contract saysthat it's governed by Wisconsin
law, and that Wisconsin law willapply the venue is Wisconsin,
all this crazy language.
It's totally wrong that hedidn't pick up on when he had
his employee sign this.
And so this employee went outand started her own business,
(08:07):
rivaling his, took his customerlist, literally went down the
customer list, called everyoneup and said, come over to me,
not to him anymore.
And so when we filed ourlawsuit, I mean, I told him this
is going to be an issue that youhave this Wisconsin language in
there and it turned out when,you know, we've served the
(08:27):
defendant and the defendant hadtheir attorney come in.
It was a huge issue becauseFlorida is a very pro, um,
business owner, business statein a very weak labor state in
Wisconsin apparently is a very.
Powerful or very labor orientedstate.
So the laws are totallydifferent.
So what would have been a slamdunk case in Florida was a
(08:51):
disastrous.
It wasn't a disastrous case, Iwould say, because we settled
it, and it was a pretty goodsettlement, but it could have
been disastrous based on himdoing a Google search as opposed
to going to an attorney andgetting a contract written off
to begin with.
Yeah, yeah, good point.
What about for those folks who,Um, you know, they, they're,
(09:12):
they're a bootstrap startup andthey like to do research
themselves and whatnot.
Do you, do you think there's away of, of working together,
allowing them to go ahead and dosome of that research and save
some funds that way, but stillbring you in?
And if so, what is the rightway?
You know, what is a good way ofapproaching that?
You know, my advice to anybusiness owners, you want to get
(09:36):
a business law attorney, right?
Involved in your business assoon as possible, preferably
before you even start yourbusiness.
And if you started yourbusiness, bring him, I mean,
bring him in as quickly as youcan.
You have to budget for it.
Just like you budget for anaccountant and things like that.
Because they're going to helpyou out.
Um, obviously, you know, myadvice to my clients is if they
(09:59):
try to do their own self helpand they try to find documents
and they try to cut corners orwhatever, that is going to turn
out very poorly for them in thelong run because the documents
are just not going to cut it.
Even if they're decentdocuments, they're not going to
cut it under the law and you'regoing to run into a situation
where you're going to wish youhad good documents.
(10:20):
So I kind of discouraged myclients from doing that.
I, you know, I mean, I'd muchrather them have something done
by an attorney if they can'tafford an attorney.
I mean, they can go to like, youknow, just don't do it yourself.
Go to legal zoom, which, youknow, or a document preparation
service like that, if you can'tafford an attorney, but
(10:40):
definitely don't do it yourself.
Okay.
Uh, you've mentioned accountantsa couple times and even the
whole, uh, team that some, youknow, small business person
should have.
I've, uh, in my experience, I,you know, I have a lawyer and I
have an accountant andoftentimes they advise me, uh,
very differently, right?
One kind of it seems to adviseme for risk mitigation, uh,
(11:03):
being a lawyer and a tax, uh,person.
You know, the accountant tendsto advise me based on what's
going to be most advantageousfor my taxes.
Um, I'm sure you run into thisquite a bit, right?
How do you, from your side, yourperspective, how do you deal
with it?
Yeah, I deal with that issue alot because obviously I work
with a lot of accountants for myclients.
And what I generally do is Idefer to the accountant.
(11:27):
You know, I don't go out thereand say, I'm right.
It's my way, you know, I workwith the accountant and I'm
like, look.
We can do things for yourbusiness a lot of ways legally,
like we can have differentbusiness organizations, we can
have different contracts inplace, you know, different, um,
whatever you want in place.
(11:48):
However, there's only so manyeconomic slash money ways we can
do things from an accountingperspective.
So if you screw up legally, forlack of a better term, we can
always go fix it.
For the most part, we can changeyou from a corporation to an
LLC.
We can put in a differentoperating agreement.
(12:09):
We can change your vendorcontract.
We can do whatever if we Don'tdo things correctly from an
accounting standpoint.
It's very hard to go back andfix that because you're gonna
get killed on your taxes You'regonna, you know, and you're not
gonna be able to recover that.
So when I work with accountants,I always defer to them and be
like, look, if possible, what'sbest economically for the
(12:33):
client.
And then I'll go make it workfrom the legal perspective.
And that's certainly how I dealwith accountants.
That's great.
Yeah, honestly, uh, I've known alot of lawyers and worked with a
lot of lawyers, and that's thefirst time I hear that as a
perspective.
So I, uh, gosh, I wish I was in,in your part of Florida.
(12:53):
Yeah.
No, I mean, that's, it's thetruth.
I mean, look.
Um, we can do a lot of thingsfrom the legal perspective.
There's not a lot of things youcan do from the accounting
perspective as far as fixingthings and doing stuff properly.
Sure.
And like I said, if you screw upon the accounting side, you're
done and there's no way you cango back and fix it because
you're not going to get moneyyou paid to the IRS back.
(13:14):
Right.
You're not going to get anothersecond bite of the apple, but
legally you can, so.
Yeah.
What are some of the most commonlegal issues that you're seeing
out there for small businessowners nowadays?
Okay.
You know, it's a little bitabout what we talked about, you
know, not having the rightdocuments in place and then it
comes back and bites thembecause you get a dispute with
(13:35):
someone you're in business withand then you don't know how to
resolve it because you don'thave.
Bylaws, you don't have anoperating agreement, so you got
to go.
So, whatever the statute say,which is never a good solution.
So you get a lot of internalbusiness fighting, you get a lot
of issues because they don'thave their documents.
You get the usual people owe youmoney, you owe people money, you
(14:00):
know, you have issues with youremployees, things like that.
It's pretty, I don't want to sayrun of the mill, but most of the
issues you face come down tolike maybe four or five areas
and those are them.
Okay.
Um, what about when somebodydoes, do you, do you do
(14:22):
litigation still at all?
Yeah.
Yes.
Okay.
So what do you think a good wayto react to a lawsuit is?
Like, how do you approach that?
Well, obviously, first, you gotto take it definitely seriously.
I know a lot of people who justget a lawsuit and they're like,
Oh, let me throw it to the sideor whatever.
(14:44):
I mean, you know, you got totake it very, I mean, that's
your whole livelihood at stake.
So you got to take every lawsuitseriously.
That's my first piece of adviceto anyone is never No matter how
frivolous or how stupid alawsuit is, you always got to
take it seriously because it canalways result in catastrophic
consequences.
No matter how dumb it is, howpoorly played it is, how, um,
(15:08):
frivolous it is.
So take it seriously.
The other thing I say is whenyou get sued, You know,
obviously you want to reach outto your attorney as soon as
possible so that they can haveas many solutions as possible to
address the lawsuit.
So, for instance, depending onwhat industry you're in and what
(15:29):
the lawsuit's about, a lot ofthese lawsuits are covered by
your various insurances.
So that's why, you know, justbecause you're sued doesn't mean
you're coming out of pocket topay for the defense.
It could be covered by your, youknow, your business insurance,
your liability insurance.
Um, you know, your autoinsurance, depending on what it
(15:49):
is.
So there's lots of differentinsurance in there.
So I always say, check forinsurance coverage on whatever
the lawsuit is.
And then if they pick it up,great, and they'll defend you.
And it's out of your hands, youdon't have to worry about paying
your attorney.
If they don't pick it up, youwant to make sure that they tell
you that they're not going tocover your lawsuit.
(16:10):
So then you don't go back lateron after you go through a full.
Okay.
Lawsuit all the litigation andstuff would be like, oh, I could
have had the company cover thatbecause they're not going to
cover it at that point.
So that's 1 of the other thingsI say is all.
Always presented to your variousinsurance companies to see if
there's any coverage therebefore you give up.
And then, let's say, there's noinsurance coverage, and you got
(16:31):
to go take care of it.
You know, yourself, you know,hire an attorney who does.
In business case, businesslitigation, not just someone
who's like.
A personal injury attorney or acriminal law attorney or a
family attorney who.
You know, you met him at thebeach.
He's pretty cool.
(16:51):
You want to retain his servicesor you met him at the, uh,
pickleball court or whatever youwant someone who focuses on the
area that you're being sued into, uh, represent you.
So you want to make sure forbusiness litigation, you have
someone who's familiar withbusiness litigation and then
obviously.
Once you have that in place,then you put together litigation
(17:15):
strategy, discuss what you wantto do.
Like, are there merits to thisclaim?
Are there no merits?
What's your budget going to be?
Do you want to try to settle thecase?
Do you want to settle soon?
Do you want to settle later?
Do you want to file acounterclaim?
Do you have claims against them?
And you put together a wholestrategy and then you play out
your strategy and that'sessentially how you handle
(17:35):
litigation.
You know, um, I had a, a partnerin a business that he, he had a
different business as well.
And he, uh, was going through alawsuit.
And, uh, you know, what was, hehad the same attorney for many
years, maybe 15, 20 years, he'solder than me, and, and he, uh,
(18:00):
got sued, and it was gonna go tocourt, and he, he's done very
well, and he's rarely ever haveto go to court, but, uh, with
this attorney, He was notwilling to litigate and I just
remember that moment where hewas just furious that he had to
go and find a new attorney andsuch.
So, uh, since that, that alwaysstuck with me to go make sure
(18:23):
that whatever attorney you get,they, they're willing to go to
court and go to fight for you.
Right.
Yeah.
Because so many just want tosettle nowadays.
And sometimes.
That's not the right way to doit.
Like, you know.
No.
And as part of, you know,representing businesses, I know
my limits.
I don't try to handleeverything.
(18:43):
I bring in other attorneys tohelp with various areas when we
encounter them representing youas part of your business
lifecycle.
So if there's like an employmentissue, I will bring in an
attorney who focuses solely onemployment law.
So that you get the bestinformation so you can make the
best business decisions and weget the best results possible.
(19:04):
I'm not going to, even though Iknow about employment law, I'm
not going to do that myself.
I'm going to bring in someonejust like intellectual property
law.
I'm going to bring in someonewho focuses on that so that we
can get the best result for you.
And that way you can focus onyour business and a lot of, you
know, people.
I would like to think attorneysthink that way, but a lot of
attorneys don't and they try totake on more than they can and
(19:27):
they go outside their wheelhouseThat's right.
You know, um, I'm wondering ifthere's certain segments we
hear, I'm in real estate andyou'll, oh, every course we ever
take, you know, for continuinged and all that say, this is
what gets you sued and makes us,it instills this fear that we're
always going to get sued all thetime.
(19:48):
And I wonder.
Um, if there are if that's thecase in like all industries if
that's what's getting preachedupon that, you know Be careful
because I rarely I don'tactually see a lot of lawsuits.
I know I haven't had one in realestate world Well, you know
anyone can sue anyone at anytime for anything, right?
(20:09):
So lawsuits are always apossibility no matter what
Business, you're in, or whatarea of business you're in, what
level of business you're on orwhatever.
I mean, it's just part ofreality that is at some point.
If you're in business, you'regoing to probably encounter a
lawsuit in some way.
So are there industries that aremore volatile than others?
Well, you know.
(20:30):
Any business or any industry canblow up at any time.
It's totally subjective.
Depends on what the situationis.
But are there industries wherethere's a lot of litigation?
Yeah, real estate, particularlyhere where I am in Florida, the
real estate litigation is huge.
Both commercial and residentialreal estate because there's lots
(20:50):
of transactions that take place.
And when there's lots oftransactions, there's lots of
differences that arise duringtransactions and that leads to
litigation.
So, you know, real estate, hugearea, um, regulated industries
and other huge area.
If you're in a highly regulatedbusiness where there's a lot of
(21:11):
laws that you have to complywith, Versus just a, you know,
run of the mill business, thenyeah, another thing where
there's plenty of opportunitiesfor lawsuits to come about.
So yeah, there's some areaswhere lawsuits are more likely,
but generally speaking, it couldhappen at any time.
Sure.
Of course.
Okay.
How would you, if you wereknowing what you know, um, if
(21:37):
you were not a lawyer, how wouldBut you know what, you know, and
you are in a different region ofthe country and you had to find
somebody like a Matt, MatthewFornaro.
How would you go about findingyou, you know, in other words,
how do you find the best lawyerfor your business?
Well, generally speaking, youknow, look, you can go online
(21:59):
and look at Google reviews andeverything.
Google reviews are legitimate,they're not bots and they're
not, you know, Patsy's put onthere for whatever.
I mean, that's always a goodway.
It's a 1st and last resort, but1 of the best ways that you can
find professionals, not justattorneys, but accountants and
bankers and stuff is throughreferrals.
(22:19):
So, for instance.
You're in the real estate space.
I'm assuming you probably knowother people who are in the real
estate space.
So, you know, most of the time.
Other business owners or otherpeople are generally nice, you
know, if you're nice to them,and if you ask them for advice,
they'll give it to you.
So, you know, you would asksomeone if you're in the real
(22:41):
estate space.
Yeah.
Someone else is in the realestate space.
Hey, who is a good.
Real estate attorney who is agood litigation attorney that
you know of or who is a good Um,whatever attorney and then most
of the time they'll tell youlike, you know Go to this person
or that person or I use thisperson or whatever or if they
don't know Ask them who theyknow who would know like, do you
(23:04):
know?
Oh, I don't you know Ipersonally never had to use an
attorney, but my friend billwho's also in The real estate
business.
I know he's involved in alawsuit right now and he's doing
pretty well with his attorneyYou And, you know, they'll give
you a referral.
And generally speaking, thereferral is going to be better
than if you went to find ityourself because you have a
level of trust and a level ofvetting already in that referral
(23:28):
because someone you know alreadyeither used that person or
someone they know used thatperson and has experience with
them so that you kind of knowwhat you're getting and it's not
a, uh, unknown commodity.
So that would be my advice is.
You know, you can always go onthe internet and look for stuff,
but if you can possibly get areferral from another
professional in the space thatyou're in, that's probably where
(23:51):
you're going to get your bestresults from.
Okay.
Yeah.
I was just wondering if therewas a tool out there, kind of
like, you know, I'm thinkinglike Zagat's for restaurants,
you know, or something back inthe day.
Now there's all kinds of stuffout there, but some of them are
accurate.
Some of them are like,magically, if you pay, you're at
the top of the list.
So that's why if you Is there atrusted source though?
(24:12):
Yeah.
Um, you know, like, Googlereviews are probably the most
trusted source.
I mean, there's other things outthere, like Avvo, ABVO is
another thing.
Then there's Martindale.
I mean, there's lots ofdifferent attorney directories
out there, but like I said,you're probably, if you can get
a referral, that's probablygoing to be your best result.
(24:34):
Gotcha.
Okay.
Um, what else is, is thereanything I'm missing that, you
know, our listeners should knowif they're starting a business
or, or have a business, uh, ifthey, if they've already gone
down the path, actually, uh, youknow, started a business,
they've been in business for ayear, they're not really in
(24:54):
trouble, but they maybe now havethe resources to, you know, to
justify a lawyer, um, and tothemselves.
And, you know, is that, is thata good time to bring one into
and just review and seteverything up right at that
point, or?
Yeah.
I mean, it's always, anytime's agood time to bring in your
business lawyer.
So if you already started up andyou're doing stuff.
(25:14):
Yeah, have a business lawyercome in and audit all your
documents and look overeverything and go over, you
know, your articles in thecorporation, your bylaws, your
vendor contracts, your lease,all that stuff, and just go
through everything and make sureit's okay because we can, you
know, sometimes we can fix itwhile it's in place.
So it can be done or we canavoid future issues.
(25:36):
So, yeah.
You know, just have the attorneycome in and conduct an audit on
your documents and then go overyour business systems and your
practices and, you know,separate, you know, question and
answer session.
Just go over as much as you can.
Okay, good.
You know, um, one, one otherquestion just thought of.
AI is a big topic nowadays,right?
(25:58):
It's disrupting the world,really.
And one of the areas I think Ihear that it's disrupting the
most is in the legal field,right?
Now people are just having chatGPT write up their legal
documents for them.
Um, how, uh, how is thatcomparing to some of the just
getting on Google and doingforms?
Is it the same, you know, isyour response the same as the
(26:21):
previous one on that or, andalso how is it changing?
The law for you?
Are you using it in any way as atool or, yeah.
Yeah.
AI is an interesting topic.
I am heavy into ai.
I use a lot of AI in what I do.
I have two different specificprograms that I use that help me
(26:41):
do my job and make me a lot moreefficient and a lot more, um,
refined.
But the ai, you know, it'sapplicable in most.
Industries now you can use AIfor anything.
So the main thing is you haveto, no matter what industry
(27:02):
you're in or whatever, you haveto responsibly use AI.
You can't just blindly use itand have it go do whatever you
have to, you know, put a levelof control over it and make sure
that ultimately the finalproduct has your review and your
(27:24):
approval on it.
So for instance, like draftinglegal documents.
So there's few, I don't know,probably about almost a year
ago, there's a big story comingout of federal court in New York
City, where this guy who's anattorney went on to chat GPT and
(27:47):
basically fed it.
A, uh, some pleadings, and ithad it draft, like, I think a
response to emotion orsomething, and he put in, like,
the prompts of, like, you know,he didn't put in great prompts,
which I'll get to prompts in asecond, but he didn't put in
great prompts.
And he just kind of was like,Hey, write a response to this
(28:07):
motion and me, you know,whatever banner.
So the AI wrote a response tothe motion, and then this guy
literally just hit print andsent it right to the court.
He didn't review it.
He didn't do anything.
He just took it and followed it.
And it turns out that all theprecedent and all the cases and
(28:29):
everything that this motioncited were hallucinations by the
AI that were made up and don'tactually exist.
So it was all, all of thesecases were totally fabricated
and didn't really exist.
So this guy got pulled before afederal judge and was, I figured
he was sanctioned.
I think he was saying he wasspined and he got in trouble
(28:52):
because he essentially just tookthe AI, had to do his homework
and just send it straight to thejudge.
And it was a disaster.
Now, alternatively, the guycould have.
First of all, put in promptsthat would have restricted it.
And again, AI is all about theprompts and any industry and
anything you're doing AI for,it's all about the prompts.
(29:14):
There's websites, there'sYouTube videos, there's apps,
there's everything devoted tothe prompts.
So you have to put in thecorrect information, no matter
what you're trying to get donein AI in order to get the
correct information out.
So this guy could have put inthe correct prompts and
everything and put guardrails upas far as, you know, use only
(29:36):
real cases, uh, you know, thingslike that.
And whatever the AI generated,this guy would have just edited
it and checked all thecitations, make sure that
they're real.
And if they're not real, go findreal ones.
And he would have been okay, buthe didn't do that.
And that's the moral of thestory for using AI is you can
(29:58):
use AI to do a lot of things ina lot of different businesses.
You just ultimately have to makesure that you're in control at
the end and that whateverproduct you put out into the
world, you've reviewed it,you've edited it, you've checked
it so that it's correct.
And it's not just whatever AIsays, because.
Just like the regular internetwill always give you the right
(30:20):
answer, but it's also you'redoing the wrong answer.
So we'll AI better at giving youthe right answer, but AI also
will hallucinate or hallucinatecertain things or hallucinate
certain things and give you thewrong answer just because it
wants to make you happy and giveyou an answer that you're
looking for.
And you have to make sure thatyou edit that out of whatever
(30:43):
documents you're creating orwhatever work product you're
creating.
So AI is important.
I mean, everyone should be usingAI.
Because, you know, I don't wantto say it's the way of the
future, but I mean, everything'sgoing to AI, but you got to make
sure that ultimately you're incharge of the AI and you just
don't use it as a replacementfor your own work product.
You use it as an enhancement foryour work product.
(31:07):
Okay.
That's interesting.
I didn't know that case.
That's, that's wild.
Um, yeah.
I mean, it's an impressivetechnology, but still got to
trust, but verify at the end ofthe day is what it sounds like.
No, that's true.
Yeah.
Great.
Matt, is there anything else youwant to leave with our
listeners, uh, for, for legaladvice if, if they're business
(31:28):
owners and want to get started?
Yeah.
So we haven't discussed.
Yeah.
One of the main things is that,you know, when you start out or
even after you start, if youdidn't already do it, you need
to have a written business planfor your business in addition to
your governing documents orcontracts or whatever, because
the written business plan isyour roadmap.
(31:49):
To how you're going to do yourbusiness.
And also, it's also arequirement for if you're going
to get a bank account, if you'regoing to do certain things, you
have to show them like a writtenbusiness plan in order to
actually qualify to do things.
If you're going to get certainloans or whatever.
So, 1 of the things that I seethat's missing from businesses,
in addition to the otherdocuments you've described is a
(32:09):
written business plan, which Irecommend every business
implement because they are veryuseful no matter what.
Part of the life cycle you're infor your business.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Good point.
I mean, it really helps youthink through when you're
writing a business plan anyways.
And it's probably something youshould update every few years as
(32:29):
well, right?
Yeah.
No, it's a, it's, you know, Idon't want to say it's a living
document because it's kind of acliche, but it is constantly
keep updating it as you go onand your goals change and your,
uh, what you've achieved change.
So you always want to keep it upto date.
Very good.
Well, thank you for that,Matthew.
So Matthew, I think at thispoint, we're going to jump into
(32:51):
our world famous Wayfinder 4.
Are you ready?
I'm ready.
All right.
Give us a hack that you use,something you use every day
that, you know, kind of helpmake your life easier.
We just discussed it.
Chat GPT 4.
0.
Okay.
AI.
(33:11):
Like I said, do it responsibly.
It's great.
Do it unresponsibly.
You're going to run intodisaster.
Sounds good.
I just read an article thismorning, I think, about, uh, Um,
uh, open AI is it that is, uh,releasing search GPT, which is
going to directly compete withGoogle now.
Yeah.
Yeah.
(33:31):
Which is interesting.
How about a favorite?
Could be a book, activity, uh,movie, whatever.
You know, favorite thing that Ijust launched, cause I was, In
the late 90s early 2000s.
I was way Into pop music likeway way into pop music and
(33:53):
there's another music, but theyjust released a uh, A three part
documentary on netflix calleddirty pop which is all about the
rise and fall of lou perlman Whois the empresario behind the
backstreet boys and sync andother?
musical pictures so um It'spretty entertaining.
(34:14):
Um, it's pretty informative.
It's a very interesting storyabout the guy.
The guy was, the guy, inaddition to did all that stuff,
coincidentally ran the longestrunning Ponzi scheme in American
history at the same time.
So it's very like Jekyll andHyde kind of thing.
It's pretty good.
So I'd recommend it.
Dirty pop.
Is that on Netflix?
It's on Netflix.
It's called dirty pop.
(34:34):
It just came out a few days ago,but I was, I was waiting for it
to come out a long time.
So, Oh, cool.
I'll check it out.
Thank you.
What about a piece of advice fora younger self?
A piece of advice from a youngerself would be have fun and
believe in yourself at alltimes.
And don't let self doubt orother doubt creep into your
(34:57):
mind.
Just always be focused on selfbelief.
Love it.
What do you do for fun, sinceyou say you have fun?
Can't imagine, it's practicinglaw.
Yeah, practicing law, believe itor not, is not fun.
Um, you know, I do a lot, I havea 16 year old and a 12 year old,
(35:17):
so I do a lot of stuff with mykids.
Yeah.
And, uh, you know, you know, I'mjust a guy.
I like sports, I like watchingsports, I like golf, which I
never thought I would be, but Igot into golf recently.
Okay.
And just doing stuff with myfamily.
I love it.
Great.
What about a big opportunity yousee out there right now?
(35:40):
I think a big opportunity that'sout there is, you know, I'm
going to go back to the AIthing, it's AI to use it, to
make your, not just work life,but entire life easier, but you
got to make sure, like I said,that you're in charge at the end
(36:00):
of the day and you'reaccountable for everything, but
if you're a responsible AI, Nomatter who you are, what you're
doing, in some way, AI is goingto make your life a lot easier.
You just have to make sure thatyou are responsible for it and
that you, uh, you're in controlof it.
And no matter what you're doing,it's going to make your life
easier in some way.
(36:21):
Thank you.
Is, uh, if people want to knowany more about you, they want to
get a hold of you, if they needa good lawyer out in South
Florida, uh, how can they reachyou?
Sure, so the easiest way toreach me is to go to my website
for narrow legal.
com, which is just my last namelegal.
com and that has all my linksto, you know, my phone number,
(36:42):
my email address, all my socialmedia, um, My how to videos, my
white papers, my blog stuff.
So if you have a question, Ihave enough material on there
that it should answer a lot ofinitial questions that people
have about business law.
So answer will be on there.
(37:02):
If not, just.
Email me or call me.
Excellent.
If, if we're not in Florida andwe want to get a hold of you,
can you, can we call you anywaysand would you be able to refer
us to the right person?
Yeah, I can help you.
And if I can't help you, I knowto refer you to someone who can
help you where you are.
Excellent.
Thank you.
Well, Matthew, uh, thanks forbeing on the show.
I think this is a lot of our,uh, Our listeners are
(37:24):
entrepreneurs and, or, or wantto be entrepreneurs, or about to
become entrepreneurs.
So I think, uh, the legal Wehope you've enjoyed The
Wayfinder Show.
If you got value from thisepisode, please take a few
seconds to leave us a 5 starrating and review.
This will allow us to help morepeople find their way to live
(37:45):
more authentic and excitinglives.
We'll catch you on the nextepisode.
aspect is, uh, as I've learnedis, is something we need to
consider and, uh, we should beconsidering it early on.
So this has been great thatyou've been here to share some
(38:08):
of your wisdom with us.
Yeah, no, I appreciate it,Louis.
Thanks for having me on.
Yeah.
Thank you.
Anyone can sue anyone at anytime for anything.
So lawsuits are always apossibility, no matter what
business you're in or what areaof business you're in, what
level of business you're on orwhatever.
I mean, it's just part ofreality.
That is, at some point, ifyou're in business, you're going
to probably encounter a lawsuitin some way.
(00:29):
Welcome to The Wayfinder Showwith Luis Hernandez, where
guests discuss the why and howof making changes that led them
down a more authentic path orallow them to level up in some
area of their life.
Our goal is to dig deep andprovide not only knowledge, but
actionable advice to help youget from where you are to where
you want to be.
(00:50):
Come join us and find the way toyour dream life.\ Welcome back
to the Wayfinder show.
I am your host, Louis Hernandez.
And today I'm here with MatthewFornaro.
Matthew has been a law attorneyserving South Florida, including
(01:13):
Corral Springs and Parklandsince 2003.
Before starting his law firm, hewas an attorney at two
prestigious Amlaw 200 law firmswhere he focused on civil
litigation.
Today, Matthew practices complexcommercial litigation, including
contract disputes.
He's also a member of theFlorida Bar and the District of
(01:36):
Columbia Bar.
He also practices constructionlaw, intellectual property law,
homeowner and condominiumassociation representation, and
he drafts and revises businessdocuments, including the
formation of businessorganizations.
So with that, Matthew, welcometo the show.
(01:56):
Thank you for having me, Larry.
Glad to be here.
Yeah, I'm glad to have you here,too.
I'm kind of looking at this asan opportunity to get a really
experienced, smart lawyer hereand ask him for some free
business, uh, law advice, whichI don't get very often, so.
It happens all the time.
I'm glad to do it.
Yeah.
Thank you.
So before we get into thatthough, Matthew, tell us a
(02:17):
little bit about yourself.
Well, you know, I'm my, uh, aswe were discussing before we
started, I'm almost a Floridanative.
I've been here since I was sixyears old.
So I kind of knew growing up, Iwanted to be an attorney.
I liked watching like thepeople's court and cool things
like that.
So I went to undergrad and Itook political science to set up
for law school.
I went to law school.
(02:38):
When I came out, I worked.
Among other places, a two big amlaw, 200 law firms.
And I decided after a while thatI wanted to kind of, uh, go out
and do my own thing and focus onhelping small and medium sized
businesses because my dad was asmall business owner and I saw
the issues that he had, and Ididn't really think that that
(03:00):
was.
Being served by uh, our legalcommunity.
So that's what my focus hasbeen.
I did that about nine years agoand I've been doing that ever
since.
Neat.
So what, what do you see as thedifferences when you were doing
civil litigation?
Was that primarily for bigcorporations, I'm assuming, or
insurance companies?
Yeah, it was for bigcorporations.
(03:21):
Yeah.
And so what, what did you see asthe differences, um, between
that and the small business?
You know, the, the focus onunderstanding your client as far
as a small business versus a bigcorporation, I think what isn't
there a lot in that when yourepresent a big business or a
(03:45):
big corporation or a bank or aninsurance company.
I mean, you have essentially,even though, you know, you got
to be responsible to your stuff.
You have an unlimited war chest,and you can have a winner take
all mentality.
When you represent a smallbusiness, you have to be
cognizant of the business'sneeds, the business's cash flow,
(04:07):
what they can afford to do, whatthey can't afford to do, and how
And I'll see You know, there'sdifferent levels of solutions
and different types of solutionsfor a small business that maybe
aren't there for a largebusiness.
Yeah, like, do, do you find, um,you know, I'm wondering as a
small business person most of mylife, like I, I don't, I've
(04:30):
often, you know, used, go, go onGoogle forms, Google legal
forms, right.
And use those to get started.
Right.
I'm not saying it's right.
I'm not saying I do that nowsaying I have done it and uh,
and I, I would assume that a bigcorporation is not going to do
that, right?
They're going to give you a callright from the beginning, make
(04:50):
sure everything's done right andtidied up my right.
That is correct.
Yes.
Yeah.
So, so what, um, so with that inmind, what are the troubles that
you see small business ownersget themselves into because they
probably didn't hire a lawyerright from the get go Yeah, you
know, a lot of small and mediumsized business legal problems
(05:14):
are completely avoidable and itgoes with the fact that as a
small business, you know, peoplethink of lawyers, accountants,
bankers, whatever, as a luxuryinstead of a necessity and as a
singular thing instead of ateam.
(05:36):
And the real approach that asmaller, medium sized business
should take.
Is that when they're planningtheir business, obviously, you'd
like to have a written businessplan.
That's a necessity.
But when you're putting yourbusiness together, you want to
make sure that you have a cadreof professionals that you can
rely on that will help you sothat you can focus on your
(05:58):
business and they can take allthe collateral decisions and
issues away from you and not youdon't have to worry about it.
And that's why you want to have.
You know, a business lawattorney, an accountant, a
banker, like an I.
T.
person, you know, that kind ofthing at your disposal is part
of a team to help you out.
Because a lot of times whenbusinesses start out, they only
(06:19):
think about attorneys as areactive solution to a problem
that pops up instead of aproactive solution for avoiding
issues.
So, like, for instance, ifyou're just talking about going
on Google to convert documents,that's.
Okay, but the issue with goingon the Internet looking for
(06:41):
stuff is that 100 percent theright answer is on the Internet
to any question.
However, 100 percent at the sametime, the wrong answer is on the
Internet to any question.
And if you don't have trainingand you don't know what's going
on, you don't know what's rightand what's wrong.
And that's why.
When you start a business, youwant to make sure if you're a
corporation, that you havebylaws, that you have articles
(07:03):
of incorporation.
If you're an LLC, that you havean operating agreement.
And that it's specificallytailored to your business and is
basically the road map of howyour business operates.
It says what your business doesand doesn't do, how it resolves
issues, who does what, who ownswhat, who pays what, et cetera.
And if you're just going on theinternet looking for stuff,
(07:24):
you're going to run intoproblems.
Like, for instance.
I had a client who runs a dogtraining business and it's
pretty successful and he came tome, obviously, after he started
this business and he had anissue with an employee and he
had an employment contract andhis company is located in Fort
Lauderdale and he pulled thisemployment contract off the
(07:47):
Internet.
And the employment contract saysthat it's governed by Wisconsin
law, and that Wisconsin law willapply the venue is Wisconsin,
all this crazy language.
It's totally wrong that hedidn't pick up on when he had
his employee sign this.
And so this employee went outand started her own business,
(08:07):
rivaling his, took his customerlist, literally went down the
customer list, called everyoneup and said, come over to me,
not to him anymore.
And so when we filed ourlawsuit, I mean, I told him this
is going to be an issue that youhave this Wisconsin language in
there and it turned out when,you know, we've served the
(08:27):
defendant and the defendant hadtheir attorney come in.
It was a huge issue becauseFlorida is a very pro, um,
business owner, business statein a very weak labor state in
Wisconsin apparently is a very.
Powerful or very labor orientedstate.
So the laws are totallydifferent.
So what would have been a slamdunk case in Florida was a
(08:51):
disastrous.
It wasn't a disastrous case, Iwould say, because we settled
it, and it was a pretty goodsettlement, but it could have
been disastrous based on himdoing a Google search as opposed
to going to an attorney andgetting a contract written off
to begin with.
Yeah, yeah, good point.
What about for those folks who,Um, you know, they, they're,
(09:12):
they're a bootstrap startup andthey like to do research
themselves and whatnot.
Do you, do you think there's away of, of working together,
allowing them to go ahead and dosome of that research and save
some funds that way, but stillbring you in?
And if so, what is the rightway?
You know, what is a good way ofapproaching that?
You know, my advice to anybusiness owners, you want to get
(09:36):
a business law attorney, right?
Involved in your business assoon as possible, preferably
before you even start yourbusiness.
And if you started yourbusiness, bring him, I mean,
bring him in as quickly as youcan.
You have to budget for it.
Just like you budget for anaccountant and things like that.
Because they're going to helpyou out.
Um, obviously, you know, myadvice to my clients is if they
(09:59):
try to do their own self helpand they try to find documents
and they try to cut corners orwhatever, that is going to turn
out very poorly for them in thelong run because the documents
are just not going to cut it.
Even if they're decentdocuments, they're not going to
cut it under the law and you'regoing to run into a situation
where you're going to wish youhad good documents.
(10:20):
So I kind of discouraged myclients from doing that.
I, you know, I mean, I'd muchrather them have something done
by an attorney if they can'tafford an attorney.
I mean, they can go to like, youknow, just don't do it yourself.
Go to legal zoom, which, youknow, or a document preparation
service like that, if you can'tafford an attorney, but
(10:40):
definitely don't do it yourself.
Okay.
Uh, you've mentioned accountantsa couple times and even the
whole, uh, team that some, youknow, small business person
should have.
I've, uh, in my experience, I,you know, I have a lawyer and I
have an accountant andoftentimes they advise me, uh,
very differently, right?
One kind of it seems to adviseme for risk mitigation, uh,
(11:03):
being a lawyer and a tax, uh,person.
You know, the accountant tendsto advise me based on what's
going to be most advantageousfor my taxes.
Um, I'm sure you run into thisquite a bit, right?
How do you, from your side, yourperspective, how do you deal
with it?
Yeah, I deal with that issue alot because obviously I work
with a lot of accountants for myclients.
And what I generally do is Idefer to the accountant.
(11:27):
You know, I don't go out thereand say, I'm right.
It's my way, you know, I workwith the accountant and I'm
like, look.
We can do things for yourbusiness a lot of ways legally,
like we can have differentbusiness organizations, we can
have different contracts inplace, you know, different, um,
whatever you want in place.
(11:48):
However, there's only so manyeconomic slash money ways we can
do things from an accountingperspective.
So if you screw up legally, forlack of a better term, we can
always go fix it.
For the most part, we can changeyou from a corporation to an
LLC.
We can put in a differentoperating agreement.
(12:09):
We can change your vendorcontract.
We can do whatever if we Don'tdo things correctly from an
accounting standpoint.
It's very hard to go back andfix that because you're gonna
get killed on your taxes You'regonna, you know, and you're not
gonna be able to recover that.
So when I work with accountants,I always defer to them and be
like, look, if possible, what'sbest economically for the
(12:33):
client.
And then I'll go make it workfrom the legal perspective.
And that's certainly how I dealwith accountants.
That's great.
Yeah, honestly, uh, I've known alot of lawyers and worked with a
lot of lawyers, and that's thefirst time I hear that as a
perspective.
So I, uh, gosh, I wish I was in,in your part of Florida.
(12:53):
Yeah.
No, I mean, that's, it's thetruth.
I mean, look.
Um, we can do a lot of thingsfrom the legal perspective.
There's not a lot of things youcan do from the accounting
perspective as far as fixingthings and doing stuff properly.
Sure.
And like I said, if you screw upon the accounting side, you're
done and there's no way you cango back and fix it because
you're not going to get moneyyou paid to the IRS back.
(13:14):
Right.
You're not going to get anothersecond bite of the apple, but
legally you can, so.
Yeah.
What are some of the most commonlegal issues that you're seeing
out there for small businessowners nowadays?
Okay.
You know, it's a little bitabout what we talked about, you
know, not having the rightdocuments in place and then it
comes back and bites thembecause you get a dispute with
(13:35):
someone you're in business withand then you don't know how to
resolve it because you don'thave.
Bylaws, you don't have anoperating agreement, so you got
to go.
So, whatever the statute say,which is never a good solution.
So you get a lot of internalbusiness fighting, you get a lot
of issues because they don'thave their documents.
You get the usual people owe youmoney, you owe people money, you
(14:00):
know, you have issues with youremployees, things like that.
It's pretty, I don't want to sayrun of the mill, but most of the
issues you face come down tolike maybe four or five areas
and those are them.
Okay.
Um, what about when somebodydoes, do you, do you do
(14:22):
litigation still at all?
Yeah.
Yes.
Okay.
So what do you think a good wayto react to a lawsuit is?
Like, how do you approach that?
Well, obviously, first, you gotto take it definitely seriously.
I know a lot of people who justget a lawsuit and they're like,
Oh, let me throw it to the sideor whatever.
(14:44):
I mean, you know, you got totake it very, I mean, that's
your whole livelihood at stake.
So you got to take every lawsuitseriously.
That's my first piece of adviceto anyone is never No matter how
frivolous or how stupid alawsuit is, you always got to
take it seriously because it canalways result in catastrophic
consequences.
No matter how dumb it is, howpoorly played it is, how, um,
(15:08):
frivolous it is.
So take it seriously.
The other thing I say is whenyou get sued, You know,
obviously you want to reach outto your attorney as soon as
possible so that they can haveas many solutions as possible to
address the lawsuit.
So, for instance, depending onwhat industry you're in and what
(15:29):
the lawsuit's about, a lot ofthese lawsuits are covered by
your various insurances.
So that's why, you know, justbecause you're sued doesn't mean
you're coming out of pocket topay for the defense.
It could be covered by your, youknow, your business insurance,
your liability insurance.
Um, you know, your autoinsurance, depending on what it
(15:49):
is.
So there's lots of differentinsurance in there.
So I always say, check forinsurance coverage on whatever
the lawsuit is.
And then if they pick it up,great, and they'll defend you.
And it's out of your hands, youdon't have to worry about paying
your attorney.
If they don't pick it up, youwant to make sure that they tell
you that they're not going tocover your lawsuit.
(16:10):
So then you don't go back lateron after you go through a full.
Okay.
Lawsuit all the litigation andstuff would be like, oh, I could
have had the company cover thatbecause they're not going to
cover it at that point.
So that's 1 of the other thingsI say is all.
Always presented to your variousinsurance companies to see if
there's any coverage therebefore you give up.
And then, let's say, there's noinsurance coverage, and you got
(16:31):
to go take care of it.
You know, yourself, you know,hire an attorney who does.
In business case, businesslitigation, not just someone
who's like.
A personal injury attorney or acriminal law attorney or a
family attorney who.
You know, you met him at thebeach.
He's pretty cool.
(16:51):
You want to retain his servicesor you met him at the, uh,
pickleball court or whatever youwant someone who focuses on the
area that you're being sued into, uh, represent you.
So you want to make sure forbusiness litigation, you have
someone who's familiar withbusiness litigation and then
obviously.
Once you have that in place,then you put together litigation
(17:15):
strategy, discuss what you wantto do.
Like, are there merits to thisclaim?
Are there no merits?
What's your budget going to be?
Do you want to try to settle thecase?
Do you want to settle soon?
Do you want to settle later?
Do you want to file acounterclaim?
Do you have claims against them?
And you put together a wholestrategy and then you play out
your strategy and that'sessentially how you handle
(17:35):
litigation.
You know, um, I had a, a partnerin a business that he, he had a
different business as well.
And he, uh, was going through alawsuit.
And, uh, you know, what was, hehad the same attorney for many
years, maybe 15, 20 years, he'solder than me, and, and he, uh,
(18:00):
got sued, and it was gonna go tocourt, and he, he's done very
well, and he's rarely ever haveto go to court, but, uh, with
this attorney, He was notwilling to litigate and I just
remember that moment where hewas just furious that he had to
go and find a new attorney andsuch.
So, uh, since that, that alwaysstuck with me to go make sure
(18:23):
that whatever attorney you get,they, they're willing to go to
court and go to fight for you.
Right.
Yeah.
Because so many just want tosettle nowadays.
And sometimes.
That's not the right way to doit.
Like, you know.
No.
And as part of, you know,representing businesses, I know
my limits.
I don't try to handleeverything.
(18:43):
I bring in other attorneys tohelp with various areas when we
encounter them representing youas part of your business
lifecycle.
So if there's like an employmentissue, I will bring in an
attorney who focuses solely onemployment law.
So that you get the bestinformation so you can make the
best business decisions and weget the best results possible.
(19:04):
I'm not going to, even though Iknow about employment law, I'm
not going to do that myself.
I'm going to bring in someonejust like intellectual property
law.
I'm going to bring in someonewho focuses on that so that we
can get the best result for you.
And that way you can focus onyour business and a lot of, you
know, people.
I would like to think attorneysthink that way, but a lot of
attorneys don't and they try totake on more than they can and
(19:27):
they go outside their wheelhouseThat's right.
You know, um, I'm wondering ifthere's certain segments we
hear, I'm in real estate andyou'll, oh, every course we ever
take, you know, for continuinged and all that say, this is
what gets you sued and makes us,it instills this fear that we're
always going to get sued all thetime.
(19:48):
And I wonder.
Um, if there are if that's thecase in like all industries if
that's what's getting preachedupon that, you know Be careful
because I rarely I don'tactually see a lot of lawsuits.
I know I haven't had one in realestate world Well, you know
anyone can sue anyone at anytime for anything, right?
(20:09):
So lawsuits are always apossibility no matter what
Business, you're in, or whatarea of business you're in, what
level of business you're on orwhatever.
I mean, it's just part ofreality that is at some point.
If you're in business, you'regoing to probably encounter a
lawsuit in some way.
So are there industries that aremore volatile than others?
Well, you know.
(20:30):
Any business or any industry canblow up at any time.
It's totally subjective.
Depends on what the situationis.
But are there industries wherethere's a lot of litigation?
Yeah, real estate, particularlyhere where I am in Florida, the
real estate litigation is huge.
Both commercial and residentialreal estate because there's lots
(20:50):
of transactions that take place.
And when there's lots oftransactions, there's lots of
differences that arise duringtransactions and that leads to
litigation.
So, you know, real estate, hugearea, um, regulated industries
and other huge area.
If you're in a highly regulatedbusiness where there's a lot of
(21:11):
laws that you have to complywith, Versus just a, you know,
run of the mill business, thenyeah, another thing where
there's plenty of opportunitiesfor lawsuits to come about.
So yeah, there's some areaswhere lawsuits are more likely,
but generally speaking, it couldhappen at any time.
Sure.
Of course.
Okay.
How would you, if you wereknowing what you know, um, if
(21:37):
you were not a lawyer, how wouldBut you know what, you know, and
you are in a different region ofthe country and you had to find
somebody like a Matt, MatthewFornaro.
How would you go about findingyou, you know, in other words,
how do you find the best lawyerfor your business?
Well, generally speaking, youknow, look, you can go online
(21:59):
and look at Google reviews andeverything.
Google reviews are legitimate,they're not bots and they're
not, you know, Patsy's put onthere for whatever.
I mean, that's always a goodway.
It's a 1st and last resort, but1 of the best ways that you can
find professionals, not justattorneys, but accountants and
bankers and stuff is throughreferrals.
(22:19):
So, for instance.
You're in the real estate space.
I'm assuming you probably knowother people who are in the real
estate space.
So, you know, most of the time.
Other business owners or otherpeople are generally nice, you
know, if you're nice to them,and if you ask them for advice,
they'll give it to you.
So, you know, you would asksomeone if you're in the real
(22:41):
estate space.
Yeah.
Someone else is in the realestate space.
Hey, who is a good.
Real estate attorney who is agood litigation attorney that
you know of or who is a good Um,whatever attorney and then most
of the time they'll tell youlike, you know Go to this person
or that person or I use thisperson or whatever or if they
don't know Ask them who theyknow who would know like, do you
(23:04):
know?
Oh, I don't you know Ipersonally never had to use an
attorney, but my friend billwho's also in The real estate
business.
I know he's involved in alawsuit right now and he's doing
pretty well with his attorneyYou And, you know, they'll give
you a referral.
And generally speaking, thereferral is going to be better
than if you went to find ityourself because you have a
level of trust and a level ofvetting already in that referral
(23:28):
because someone you know alreadyeither used that person or
someone they know used thatperson and has experience with
them so that you kind of knowwhat you're getting and it's not
a, uh, unknown commodity.
So that would be my advice is.
You know, you can always go onthe internet and look for stuff,
but if you can possibly get areferral from another
professional in the space thatyou're in, that's probably where
(23:51):
you're going to get your bestresults from.
Okay.
Yeah.
I was just wondering if therewas a tool out there, kind of
like, you know, I'm thinkinglike Zagat's for restaurants,
you know, or something back inthe day.
Now there's all kinds of stuffout there, but some of them are
accurate.
Some of them are like,magically, if you pay, you're at
the top of the list.
So that's why if you Is there atrusted source though?
(24:12):
Yeah.
Um, you know, like, Googlereviews are probably the most
trusted source.
I mean, there's other things outthere, like Avvo, ABVO is
another thing.
Then there's Martindale.
I mean, there's lots ofdifferent attorney directories
out there, but like I said,you're probably, if you can get
a referral, that's probablygoing to be your best result.
(24:34):
Gotcha.
Okay.
Um, what else is, is thereanything I'm missing that, you
know, our listeners should knowif they're starting a business
or, or have a business, uh, ifthey, if they've already gone
down the path, actually, uh, youknow, started a business,
they've been in business for ayear, they're not really in
(24:54):
trouble, but they maybe now havethe resources to, you know, to
justify a lawyer, um, and tothemselves.
And, you know, is that, is thata good time to bring one into
and just review and seteverything up right at that
point, or?
Yeah.
I mean, it's always, anytime's agood time to bring in your
business lawyer.
So if you already started up andyou're doing stuff.
(25:14):
Yeah, have a business lawyercome in and audit all your
documents and look overeverything and go over, you
know, your articles in thecorporation, your bylaws, your
vendor contracts, your lease,all that stuff, and just go
through everything and make sureit's okay because we can, you
know, sometimes we can fix itwhile it's in place.
So it can be done or we canavoid future issues.
(25:36):
So, yeah.
You know, just have the attorneycome in and conduct an audit on
your documents and then go overyour business systems and your
practices and, you know,separate, you know, question and
answer session.
Just go over as much as you can.
Okay, good.
You know, um, one, one otherquestion just thought of.
AI is a big topic nowadays,right?
(25:58):
It's disrupting the world,really.
And one of the areas I think Ihear that it's disrupting the
most is in the legal field,right?
Now people are just having chatGPT write up their legal
documents for them.
Um, how, uh, how is thatcomparing to some of the just
getting on Google and doingforms?
Is it the same, you know, isyour response the same as the
(26:21):
previous one on that or, andalso how is it changing?
The law for you?
Are you using it in any way as atool or, yeah.
Yeah.
AI is an interesting topic.
I am heavy into ai.
I use a lot of AI in what I do.
I have two different specificprograms that I use that help me
(26:41):
do my job and make me a lot moreefficient and a lot more, um,
refined.
But the ai, you know, it'sapplicable in most.
Industries now you can use AIfor anything.
So the main thing is you haveto, no matter what industry
(27:02):
you're in or whatever, you haveto responsibly use AI.
You can't just blindly use itand have it go do whatever you
have to, you know, put a levelof control over it and make sure
that ultimately the finalproduct has your review and your
(27:24):
approval on it.
So for instance, like draftinglegal documents.
So there's few, I don't know,probably about almost a year
ago, there's a big story comingout of federal court in New York
City, where this guy who's anattorney went on to chat GPT and
(27:47):
basically fed it.
A, uh, some pleadings, and ithad it draft, like, I think a
response to emotion orsomething, and he put in, like,
the prompts of, like, you know,he didn't put in great prompts,
which I'll get to prompts in asecond, but he didn't put in
great prompts.
And he just kind of was like,Hey, write a response to this
(28:07):
motion and me, you know,whatever banner.
So the AI wrote a response tothe motion, and then this guy
literally just hit print andsent it right to the court.
He didn't review it.
He didn't do anything.
He just took it and followed it.
And it turns out that all theprecedent and all the cases and
(28:29):
everything that this motioncited were hallucinations by the
AI that were made up and don'tactually exist.
So it was all, all of thesecases were totally fabricated
and didn't really exist.
So this guy got pulled before afederal judge and was, I figured
he was sanctioned.
I think he was saying he wasspined and he got in trouble
(28:52):
because he essentially just tookthe AI, had to do his homework
and just send it straight to thejudge.
And it was a disaster.
Now, alternatively, the guycould have.
First of all, put in promptsthat would have restricted it.
And again, AI is all about theprompts and any industry and
anything you're doing AI for,it's all about the prompts.
(29:14):
There's websites, there'sYouTube videos, there's apps,
there's everything devoted tothe prompts.
So you have to put in thecorrect information, no matter
what you're trying to get donein AI in order to get the
correct information out.
So this guy could have put inthe correct prompts and
everything and put guardrails upas far as, you know, use only
(29:36):
real cases, uh, you know, thingslike that.
And whatever the AI generated,this guy would have just edited
it and checked all thecitations, make sure that
they're real.
And if they're not real, go findreal ones.
And he would have been okay, buthe didn't do that.
And that's the moral of thestory for using AI is you can
(29:58):
use AI to do a lot of things ina lot of different businesses.
You just ultimately have to makesure that you're in control at
the end and that whateverproduct you put out into the
world, you've reviewed it,you've edited it, you've checked
it so that it's correct.
And it's not just whatever AIsays, because.
Just like the regular internetwill always give you the right
(30:20):
answer, but it's also you'redoing the wrong answer.
So we'll AI better at giving youthe right answer, but AI also
will hallucinate or hallucinatecertain things or hallucinate
certain things and give you thewrong answer just because it
wants to make you happy and giveyou an answer that you're
looking for.
And you have to make sure thatyou edit that out of whatever
(30:43):
documents you're creating orwhatever work product you're
creating.
So AI is important.
I mean, everyone should be usingAI.
Because, you know, I don't wantto say it's the way of the
future, but I mean, everything'sgoing to AI, but you got to make
sure that ultimately you're incharge of the AI and you just
don't use it as a replacementfor your own work product.
You use it as an enhancement foryour work product.
(31:07):
Okay.
That's interesting.
I didn't know that case.
That's, that's wild.
Um, yeah.
I mean, it's an impressivetechnology, but still got to
trust, but verify at the end ofthe day is what it sounds like.
No, that's true.
Yeah.
Great.
Matt, is there anything else youwant to leave with our
listeners, uh, for, for legaladvice if, if they're business
(31:28):
owners and want to get started?
Yeah.
So we haven't discussed.
Yeah.
One of the main things is that,you know, when you start out or
even after you start, if youdidn't already do it, you need
to have a written business planfor your business in addition to
your governing documents orcontracts or whatever, because
the written business plan isyour roadmap.
(31:49):
To how you're going to do yourbusiness.
And also, it's also arequirement for if you're going
to get a bank account, if you'regoing to do certain things, you
have to show them like a writtenbusiness plan in order to
actually qualify to do things.
If you're going to get certainloans or whatever.
So, 1 of the things that I seethat's missing from businesses,
in addition to the otherdocuments you've described is a
(32:09):
written business plan, which Irecommend every business
implement because they are veryuseful no matter what.
Part of the life cycle you're infor your business.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Good point.
I mean, it really helps youthink through when you're
writing a business plan anyways.
And it's probably something youshould update every few years as
(32:29):
well, right?
Yeah.
No, it's a, it's, you know, Idon't want to say it's a living
document because it's kind of acliche, but it is constantly
keep updating it as you go onand your goals change and your,
uh, what you've achieved change.
So you always want to keep it upto date.
Very good.
Well, thank you for that,Matthew.
So Matthew, I think at thispoint, we're going to jump into
(32:51):
our world famous Wayfinder 4.
Are you ready?
I'm ready.
All right.
Give us a hack that you use,something you use every day
that, you know, kind of helpmake your life easier.
We just discussed it.
Chat GPT 4.
0.
Okay.
AI.
(33:11):
Like I said, do it responsibly.
It's great.
Do it unresponsibly.
You're going to run intodisaster.
Sounds good.
I just read an article thismorning, I think, about, uh, Um,
uh, open AI is it that is, uh,releasing search GPT, which is
going to directly compete withGoogle now.
Yeah.
Yeah.
(33:31):
Which is interesting.
How about a favorite?
Could be a book, activity, uh,movie, whatever.
You know, favorite thing that Ijust launched, cause I was, In
the late 90s early 2000s.
I was way Into pop music likeway way into pop music and
(33:53):
there's another music, but theyjust released a uh, A three part
documentary on netflix calleddirty pop which is all about the
rise and fall of lou perlman Whois the empresario behind the
backstreet boys and sync andother?
musical pictures so um It'spretty entertaining.
(34:14):
Um, it's pretty informative.
It's a very interesting storyabout the guy.
The guy was, the guy, inaddition to did all that stuff,
coincidentally ran the longestrunning Ponzi scheme in American
history at the same time.
So it's very like Jekyll andHyde kind of thing.
It's pretty good.
So I'd recommend it.
Dirty pop.
Is that on Netflix?
It's on Netflix.
It's called dirty pop.
(34:34):
It just came out a few days ago,but I was, I was waiting for it
to come out a long time.
So, Oh, cool.
I'll check it out.
Thank you.
What about a piece of advice fora younger self?
A piece of advice from a youngerself would be have fun and
believe in yourself at alltimes.
And don't let self doubt orother doubt creep into your
(34:57):
mind.
Just always be focused on selfbelief.
Love it.
What do you do for fun, sinceyou say you have fun?
Can't imagine, it's practicinglaw.
Yeah, practicing law, believe itor not, is not fun.
Um, you know, I do a lot, I havea 16 year old and a 12 year old,
(35:17):
so I do a lot of stuff with mykids.
Yeah.
And, uh, you know, you know, I'mjust a guy.
I like sports, I like watchingsports, I like golf, which I
never thought I would be, but Igot into golf recently.
Okay.
And just doing stuff with myfamily.
I love it.
Great.
What about a big opportunity yousee out there right now?
(35:40):
I think a big opportunity that'sout there is, you know, I'm
going to go back to the AIthing, it's AI to use it, to
make your, not just work life,but entire life easier, but you
got to make sure, like I said,that you're in charge at the end
(36:00):
of the day and you'reaccountable for everything, but
if you're a responsible AI, Nomatter who you are, what you're
doing, in some way, AI is goingto make your life a lot easier.
You just have to make sure thatyou are responsible for it and
that you, uh, you're in controlof it.
And no matter what you're doing,it's going to make your life
easier in some way.
(36:21):
Thank you.
Is, uh, if people want to knowany more about you, they want to
get a hold of you, if they needa good lawyer out in South
Florida, uh, how can they reachyou?
Sure, so the easiest way toreach me is to go to my website
for narrow legal.
com, which is just my last namelegal.
com and that has all my linksto, you know, my phone number,
(36:42):
my email address, all my socialmedia, um, My how to videos, my
white papers, my blog stuff.
So if you have a question, Ihave enough material on there
that it should answer a lot ofinitial questions that people
have about business law.
So answer will be on there.
(37:02):
If not, just.
Email me or call me.
Excellent.
If, if we're not in Florida andwe want to get a hold of you,
can you, can we call you anywaysand would you be able to refer
us to the right person?
Yeah, I can help you.
And if I can't help you, I knowto refer you to someone who can
help you where you are.
Excellent.
Thank you.
Well, Matthew, uh, thanks forbeing on the show.
I think this is a lot of our,uh, Our listeners are
(37:24):
entrepreneurs and, or, or wantto be entrepreneurs, or about to
become entrepreneurs.
So I think, uh, the legal Wehope you've enjoyed The
Wayfinder Show.
If you got value from thisepisode, please take a few
seconds to leave us a 5 starrating and review.
This will allow us to help morepeople find their way to live
(37:45):
more authentic and excitinglives.
We'll catch you on the nextepisode.
aspect is, uh, as I've learnedis, is something we need to
consider and, uh, we should beconsidering it early on.
So this has been great thatyou've been here to share some
(38:08):
of your wisdom with us.
Yeah, no, I appreciate it,Louis.
Thanks for having me on.
Yeah.
Thank you.
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