The Last Things

Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_01 (00:15):
Hello, and welcome to the Weight of Glory podcast.
This is your host, Clayton More.
The idea of this podcast is toexplore the themes present in
The Weight of Glory, an essay byC.S.
Lewis, and maybe to explore someof his other essays.
At some point, I hope to inviteguests onto the podcast to share

(00:36):
their insights, but in thesefirst episodes, I'm simply
exploring some of the ways inwhich the thought of C.
S.
Lewis has intersected with myown life and thinking.
Back in 2008, when I was stillliving in Los Angeles, I helped
lead a retreat during the Eastertritum for a number of young
people in Hollywood who werepreparing to enter the church at

(00:58):
the Easter Vigil.
On Good Friday, I was asked tolead a session on the last
things death, judgment, heaven,and hell.
Rather than diving right into adiscussion of things ultimate, I
decided to provide some context.
And some of that context camefrom C.

(01:20):
Lewis.
In the weight of glory, Lewisobserves that we are
half-hearted creatures, foolingabout with drink and sex and
ambition, when infinite joy isoffered us.
Like an ignorant child who wantsto go on making mud pies in a
swim.

(01:40):
Because he cannot imagine whatis meant by the offer of a
holiday at the sea.
We are far too easily pleased.
So without further ado, here'sthe podcast I recorded during
that Easter Freedom Retreat.
Perhaps in this time of turmoiland uncertainty, it will provide

(02:03):
a kind of compass for the largerjourney of our human life, which
is, in the end, a journey to theFather's House.
Welcome to the RCIA HollywoodPodcast, coming to you weekly
from Sunset Boulevard in theheart of Los Angeles.

(02:23):
RCIA Hollywood is a programdesigned particularly for
artists who have an interest inexploring the Catholic faith in
a systematic way with thepossibility of being fully
admitted into the church duringthe Easter season.
RCIA stands for Rite ofChristian Initiation of Adults,
and it's a process that datesback to the very first centuries

(02:45):
of Christianity.
This week's class on the lastthings is led by Clayton Emmer.
Okay, yeah, I realized that thenotes from this talk I left at
home.
I have a few remnant notes in mynotebook, so I'll work with
these.

(03:05):
But I thought what we'd do isI'd like to do a little
introduction and then we'lllook, maybe look at some of the
catechism paragraphs on thesethe last things death, judgment,
heaven, and hell.
And then I've got some kind ofpractical questions if you've
got a notebook and paper, somequestions to take home for
yourself about these four lastthings.
So maybe things you couldmeditate between now and tonight

(03:25):
on.
So I'm going to start with akind of an introduction.
I was thinking about this lastnight a little bit.
You can just describe what we'reabout here, and the whole
spiritual life, really, as ajourney to the house of the

(03:45):
Father.
And what does that mean?
Unpack that.
It's really kind of powerful ifyou start to meditate on that
whole thing.
There's a real richness to theidea of calling God Father.
Of course, first of all, it'sthe way that Jesus revealed the
name of God, that he was the Sonof the Father, and that he

(04:08):
revealed the face of the Father.
But just in terms of ourhumanity, what does it mean to
have a father?
There's just a beautiful planfor man and woman that John Paul
II lays out in his theology ofthe body, but we just know it
too from human nature.
When a couple conceives and theybring new life into the world,

(04:31):
for nine months that life iswith the mother.
The mother is a great nurturerof the soul and of the heart and
the body.
And uh as a child is raised, youknow, she's such a key figure in
nurturing and bringing that lifeforth.
And the father is accompanyingthat life also, but in a very
kind of different way.
They both are nurturers.

(04:52):
I don't want to beoversimplicity about this.
But there's a sense in which themother is kind of the native
home of the person when theycome into the world.
It's a place of comfort, it'swhat we're familiar with, it's a
place to be nourished and kindof formed.
But at a certain point in ourlife, we need to move outside of

(05:12):
the comfort zone of the world,the comfort, the nest that our
mother has created for us.
And we have to journey out, andreally it's a journey out toward
the Father.
I mean, we understand him in acertain way, but we're not, we
don't have that samerelationship to him that we have
to our mother, just because, youknow, he didn't carry us for

(05:35):
nine months, you know.
It's a different sort ofrelationship.
But that's the beauty of thefather, too, is that he helps us
journey from that state ofnative comfort outside of
ourselves into the larger world.
He represents the other, thatthat that the world outside that
comfort zone.
So um that's just on a naturalplane, but that's I think also
we can learn a lot about ourspiritual lives from that, too.

(05:57):
It's like this journey to thehouse of the Father, it's a
journey to an unfamiliar place.
Uh it's a place of love andnurturing, but it's we just
don't know a lot about it.
It's not it's not our nativehome.
It's where we're called to.
And it's also where we're from.
He's involved in our origins andhe's involved in where we're
going, but it isn't probably thething we're most familiar with

(06:18):
right now as we're on ourpilgrimage.
So um I kind of want to framethis this talk about the last
things in that context.
Because the last things reallymake sense in the light of the
journey to the house of theFather, um, the journey out of
our comfort zones from what isfamiliar to what is unfamiliar,
uh, to what is transcendent, towhat is above, but ultimately

(06:40):
into the arms of love, you know,as well.
But I think if unless we capturethat sense, if we're journeying
to the Father's home, and thatthe Father is some is a
destination for us that wewelcome and we're we're we
anticipate with joy, even thoughwe don't understand it fully
now, unless we have thatanticipation, that joy, and that
sense of trust, um, all theselast things are gonna look

(07:02):
painful to us.
They they're gonna they're gonnagenerate in us fear and anxiety,
maybe even revulsion, and we mayeven turn away from the things
that we need to pass through inorder to make it to the Father's
house.
Um, and that's really kind ofthe just the nature of the beast
since the fall, you know, inGenesis with Adam and Eve.

(07:23):
Um they were living in thegarden in peace and harmony, you
know, in this directrelationship with our father.
And then um there was thismoment in which a voice
insinuated itself into the lifeof Eve and was saying to her,
the voice of the serpent,saying, You know what?
God asked you not to eat of thisone tree, didn't he?

(07:44):
And she's like, Yes, but we caneat of anything else, you know.
Still she was trusting, youknow, she still had that
responsive trust.
Um she wasn't upset that therewas one tree that was off
limits.
But then the serpent kept at it,he's like, Why do you think it
is that you can't eat from thattree?
Why do you think the serpent wasthere to foster disobedience?

(08:05):
The serpent, you know,ultimately representing Satan,
you know, jealous of this thingcalled creature, this beautiful
creation, um, with freedom, ableto enjoy this great union with
God, which Satan rejected.
Okay, so he's insinuatinghimself into Eve's mind.
Boy, you know, this guy upthere, he must be a real tyrant,
because you can't eat of thattree.

(08:26):
That must be the best tree inthe garden.
You should desire its fruitabove everything else.
You know why?
Because if you eat of that tree,you're gonna become like him.
You'll be his competitor now.
And uh you won't have thistyrant slaving over you and
telling you what to do and notto do.
So I think you really should gofor that fruit.
You've uh you'll be like God.

(08:46):
So this voice is just reallyclever and very um subtle, but
the but the temptation is, youknow, not to trust, not to trust
the Father.
Uh the Father's house is a houseof tyranny, it's not a place of
comfort and joy.
So uh Eve listened to the voiceand ate from the fruit, and Adam

(09:07):
did too.
And the result of that was thisrupture of the relationship, um,
this rupture of trust betweenGod and the creature.
And then ultimately that playedout in a lack of trust that
seeped into the relationshipbetween man and woman.
Um, suddenly that relationship'scharacterized by fear, by um

(09:29):
great reserve, um, all this sortof stuff, and that's the
experience of original sin,where we no longer can give
ourselves freely because we'realways having to protect
ourselves from the other.
Because we don't we don'tbelieve and we don't experience
that the other has our bestinterests at heart.
Um just like we don't trust thatGod has our best interests at
heart.

(09:49):
So that's the real task for usis there's been this rupture,
it's a very serious rupture.
It's changed, it hasn'tcorrupted us, it's it hasn't
severed well, in a sense, it didsever our relationship, okay?
But it didn't corrupt ournature.
Our nature is still good,fashioned in the image of God

(10:10):
and destined for him, butthere's this rupture that's
happened because of originalsin, even before our own
personal sins, this experienceof fear, of reserve, of not
trusting, of rebellion, and ofgrasping for ourselves what we
don't believe we can receivefreely from the Father.
See, the Father's always there,never changed, always generous,
always loving, always full andmagnanimous and giving.

(10:32):
But the fact is that we don'ttrust him, and uh and and that's
where everything goes, starts togo haywire.
And all the things in the OldTestament we see about the
Father being this nasty, youknow, severe, punishing God, um,
consider your sources.
You know, we're talking aboutthe children here and how they

(10:54):
experience him.
The fact is, he's a jealous God,because he's our father.
And he sees us messing witheverything that's less than him,
and he wants us for himself.
Um, that's what he really wants.
So he's gonna tell us not to eatthat poison, not to eat that,
not to eat that, because they'reall gonna take us away and
they're gonna delay our journeyto the father's house.
So uh as we look at these lastthings, rather than looking at

(11:16):
them with dread and fear, itreally should find a sense of
joy.
It's like the father's callingus through these disciplines and
through these experiences backto his house.
And it's not that he's trying tokeep us at arm's length either,
it's just the fact that originalsin is with us, and and to
reverse it, he had to send hisson, sacrifice his own son's
life, so that we could bereunited with him.
Uh but we what we sometimes missis the fact that we can't just

(11:39):
get there riding on the on theback of Jesus.
We have to travel this journeytoo with him.
We come to life, but it's a lifethat comes by way of dying.
And that's what baptism is, andthat's what we celebrate tonight
in such a powerful way isbaptism.
It's life by way of dying.
Um, if somebody were to ask, youknow, what is the most

(12:02):
comforting religion in theworld?
That would be a good question toask in a survey.
And then also to ask, you know,what is the most upsetting
religion in the world?
It would be interesting to knowwhat people would say to those
two questions.
Um I posit that, you know, if Ithink uh the most comforting
religion in the world would beChristianity, uh, without
question.

(12:22):
Uh and as far as what would bethe most upsetting religion in
the world, I think it would alsobe Christianity.
I think it's both.
It's the most upsetting and themost comforting.
Because of original sin for thatvery reason.
You know, there's just no wayback to the garden without the
experience of death.
Um our life right now, as welive it, in all of its comfort,

(12:43):
in its kind of its native formfor us, um, we're not, I'm not
sure we always want to leavethis comfort nest, even if
there's something better,because we don't know that
something better.
Um turned upside down by thefall.
And to turn it upside right,think of what that entails.
Just think of a boat, you know.

(13:04):
A boat's sitting there inparadise on the waters of
creation.
And then you tip it over, okay,and that's original sin.
Um we've gotten very used tobeing in that tipped over boat.
That's our native home.
That's what we understand,that's what we know.
Experience of sin, the fear, allof that.
And so now Christ comes and hewants to write the boat again.

(13:24):
But what how do the Phariseesand the Sadducees and everybody
receive that?
They're afraid, they'rethreatened, they're challenged
by that.
How dare he turn this boat over?
How dare he upset our life?
You know.
When in fact what's happening ishe's writing the boat, but we
experience it as an upset.
So it's it's really this idea ofChristianity is really a comfort

(13:46):
comes by way of this upset.
We just don't know it yet.
When it's all upset in our life,I think we discover, you know,
the truth that finally the votehas been righted.
And what we had become sofamiliar with was in fact, you
know, just the pilgrim state ofthis valley of tears.
And now we have we've discoveredour true home in the Father's
house.

(14:08):
Um and I think if we I I don'tknow, but just talking about my
own personally, just about myown father for a minute here.
Um my dad was a really strongman of prayer, and he um I never
really understood this abouthim, but he really, from a very
young age, he he had the senseof the need to kind of of life
coming through dying, in a waythat my mom didn't.

(14:29):
Maybe that's just naturaltemperaments, you know.
My mom always wanted to protectus and keep us from harm and
anything.
He was always inviting us torisk and adventure and uh and uh
and going behind his stuff.
I remember just simple things.
Like I was a really shy,introverted kid, and I remember
one time he's like, Well, youknow, why don't you invite
somebody over this weekend orwhy don't you go over to Joby's

(14:49):
house or whatever it was?
And I'm like, I I don't know.
I don't know anybody.
I don't I don't have anyfriends, you know, or whatever.
And he's like, um, well, youdon't have friends until you are
one.
It was just that kind of simplething.
A little light bulb went off inmy head, but it was like, you
know what, you you kind of haveto move outside of yourself to

(15:09):
find that thing.
Um so he always was kind of thatkind of example.
Um, and maybe that's just theway dads are, I don't know.
It's this way I experienced him.
And but and also he in college,uh, he was an English major like
me.
I kind of followed in hisfootsteps in a lot of ways.
But um, I remember he wrote hesent me this essay uh that he
wrote when he was in college byit was an essay about a poem by

(15:32):
Robert Frost called After ApplePicking.
And um, really it's an essay,uh, a reflection on death.
And um, so anyway, uh he was nota morbid person at all, but he
really had the sense of we're onpilgrimage, we're not this isn't
where we belong, this is justwhere we are for now.
And um yeah, so I want to readthis little essay I wrote about

(15:54):
um about this movement from oneplace to the next.
Um by the way, uh my dad, hedied in 2004 after a long
struggle with cancer.
Like a year before he died, hesent me a copy of this essay
he'd written in college.
So that's what uh kind of causedme to reflect on this.
Um I wrote this uh in 2005, thenext year.

(16:17):
Has a lot to say about theHollywood culture too, where
we're all focused on the there,this and now and what we
consider life.
I said, uh Today I turned 35.
And while the Vatican may saythat I still qualify as a youth
for the next four years, save mea place in Cologne, Germany, for
World Youth Day.
35 is a decisive point of entryinto what many call middle age.

(16:42):
If I were going to take cuesfrom the culture, I should be
surrounding myself with blackballoons and all sorts of
birthday cards evoking nostalgiaandor grief.
For all the talk about beingforward-looking, we sure spend a
lot of time hankering for thepast.
I spent quite a bit of time inrecent months thinking about our
passage through time, especiallyas both my father and the man I

(17:06):
consider one of my primaryspiritual fathers passed from
this life to the next.
Experiencing these deaths, andespecially being present at the
side of my father as he took hislast breath, had an unexpected
effect on me.
Of course I expected the griefand the sense of loss, but what
surprised me was the way that itstirred up a desire for the life

(17:29):
to come.
Enkindled, I'm sure, by the factthat both of these men had
pilgrim hearts.
They took great joy in thislife, but they never forgot that
they were still on the way.
About a year ago, my dad sent mean essay he'd written in college
about Robert Frost's after applepicking, which includes this

(17:50):
passage.
My long, two-pointed ladderssticking through a tree toward
heaven still.
And there's a barrel that Ididn't fill beside it, and there
may be two or three apples Ididn't pick upon some bough.
But I am done with apple pickingnow.

(18:11):
Dad enclosed a short note withthe essay, a very matter of
fact, saying he found it amongsome old files he had been
sorting through.
He didn't really need to sayanything more.
The consummate teacher, heallowed his own peaceful, and I
might hazard to say, joyful,entry into the next life, to
interpret the poem for me.

(18:32):
It wasn't at all that he didn'tenjoy this life, but he had
tasted something more, and hewasn't going to stick with the
hors d'oeuvres when an entirebanquet was being laid out
before him.
As C.
S.
Lewis once put it, if weconsider the unblushing promises
of reward and the staggeringnature of the rewards promised
in the Gospels, it would seemthat our Lord finds our desires

(18:56):
not too strong, but too weak.
We are half-hearted creatures,fooling about with drink and sex
and ambition, when infinite joyis offered to us.
Like an ignorant child who wantsto go on making mud pies in a
slum, because he cannot imaginewhat is meant by the offer of a

(19:18):
holiday at the sea.
We are far too easily pleased.
Or in the words of St.
John of the Cross, I will neverlose myself for that which the
senses can take in here, nor forall the mind can hold, no matter
how lofty, nor for grace orbeauty, but only for I don't

(19:40):
know what, which is so gladlyfound.
Or as T.
S.
Eliot wrote in his fourquartets, in my beginning is my
end.
In succession, houses rise andfall, crumble, are extended, are
removed, destroyed, restored, orin their place is an open field

(20:01):
or a factory or a bypass.
Old men ought to be explorers.
Here or there does not matter.
We must be still and stillmoving into another intensity,
for a further union, a deepercommunion, through the dark cold
and the empty desolation, thewave cry, the wind cry, the vast

(20:24):
waters of the petrol and theporpoise.
In my end is my beginning.
So I think my perspective on ageis a little bit different this
year.
If someone approaches me todayand says, So how does it feel to
be a year older?
I think I will respond.
The real question is, how doesit feel to be a year closer to

(20:46):
the life to come?
So, given that kind of context,I think that might be a good
setup for taking a look at theselast things, which are kind of
like um I don't know, it's kindof like putting the four-year
foyer if you're in the foyer ofheaven, you know, what a joyful
thing.
It's time to check into the tothe heavenly kingdom.

(21:08):
So, um, let's take a look at thedeath, judgment, heaven, and
hell.
Um I don't know, DJ, have youguys had a chance to look at
these uh sections in thecatechism?
It starts with 988.
And I think we assigned from 988all the way up to um 1050.

SPEAKER_05 (21:34):
I don't think I'll be able to do that reading in
the next few seconds.

SPEAKER_01 (21:37):
That's fine.
You know what I might do?
I might choose a few paragraphsand you can just read them aloud
and uh discuss.

SPEAKER_04 (21:43):
Can you say them again?
What is that?

SPEAKER_01 (21:44):
Uh it starts with 988.
I believe in the resurrection ofthe body.
How much time do we have?
I want to be careful about ourtime.
I think we have till 11.

SPEAKER_03 (21:55):
I can self-watch things too.

SPEAKER_01 (21:57):
Okay.
So what I think I'll do is I'lljust read a couple paragraphs
and then I might invite some ofyou to read some.
We'll just stop and discuss aswe go along, like we've done in
class sometimes.

SPEAKER_04 (22:06):
1030 is what we have.

SPEAKER_01 (22:07):
Okay.
Yeah, is that good?
We're still good.
Yeah, we'll see where we got.
All right, I believe in theresurrection of the body.
Paragraph 988.
The Christian creed, theprofession of our faith in God,
the Father, Son, and HolySpirit, and in God's creative,
saving, and sanctifying action,culminates in the proclamation

(22:31):
of the resurrection of the deadon the last day, and in life
everlasting.
We firmly believe, and hence wehope, that just as Christ is
truly risen from the dead andlives forever, so after death
the righteous will live foreverwith the risen Christ, and he
will raise them up on the lastday.

(22:52):
Our resurrection, like his own,will be the work of the most
holy trinity.
If the spirit of him who raisedJesus from the dead dwells in
you, he who raised Christ Jesusfrom the dead will give life to
your mortal bodies also, throughhis spirit that dwells in you.
The term flesh refers to man inhis state of weakness and

(23:13):
mortality.
The resurrection of the flesh,the literal formulation of the
Apostles' Creed, means not onlythat the immortal soul will live
on after death, but that evenour mortal body will come to
life again.
Belief in the resurrection ofthe dead has been an essential
element of the Christian faithfrom its beginning.

(23:34):
The confidence of Christians isthe resurrection of the dead.
Believing this, we live.
How can you some of you say thatthere is no resurrection of the
dead?
But if there is no resurrectionof the dead, then Christ has not
been raised.
If Christ has not been raised,then our preaching is in vain,
and your faith is in vain.

(23:54):
But in fact, Christ has beenraised from raised from the
dead.
The first fruits of those whohave fallen asleep.
The resurrection of the body.

(24:41):
Okay, let's uh let's justcontinue uh plugging on here.
Does anybody want to read um thenext couple paragraphs on it?
Let's see, uh maybe 992 through94.

SPEAKER_04 (24:56):
I'll read.

SPEAKER_01 (24:57):
Okay.

SPEAKER_04 (24:59):
God revealed the resurrection of the dead to his
people progressively.
Hope in the bodily resurrectionof the dead established itself
as a consequence intrinsic tofaith in God as creator of the
whole man, soul and body.
The creator of heaven and earthis also the one who faithfully
maintains his covenant withAbraham and his posterity.

(25:21):
It was in this doubleperspective that faith in the
resurrection came to beexpressed.
In their trials, the Maccabeanmartyrs confess, The King of the
universe will raise us up to aneverlasting renewal of life,
because we have died for hislaws.
One cannot but choose to die atthe hands of men and to cherish

(25:43):
the hope that God gives of beingraised again by him.
The Pharisees and many of theLord's contemporaries hoped for
the resurrection.
Jesus teaches it firmly.
To the Sadducees who deny it, heanswers, Is not this why you are
wrong, that you know neither thescriptures nor the power of God?

(26:03):
Faith in the resurrection restson faith in God, who is not God
of the dead, but of the living.
But there is more.
Jesus links faith in theresurrection to his own person.
I am the resurrection and thelife.
It is Jesus Himself who on thelast day will raise us up those
who have believed in him, whohave eaten his body and drunk

(26:25):
his blood.
Already now in this presentlife, he gives a sign and a
pledge of this by restoring someof the dead to life, announcing
thereby his own resurrection,though it was to be of another
order.
He speaks of this unique eventas the sign of Jonah, the sign
of the temple.
He announces that he will be putto death, but rise thereafter on

(26:48):
the third day.

SPEAKER_01 (26:49):
Great.
Thank you.
Anyone, feel free to jump in.
Anything there that strikes youor you want to comment on?

SPEAKER_04 (26:59):
Why would they call it the sign of Jonah?
Why would he call it the sign ofJonah?

SPEAKER_01 (27:02):
That's an interesting question.

SPEAKER_04 (27:02):
I've never thought of it that way.
Matthew uh Matthew 12.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (27:08):
Does anybody have a title?
I think about my scriptureshere, which is silly.
Oh, yeah, I do.
Just take a quick look.
It's a really good question.
The sign of Jonah, isn't thatthe sign of contradiction, too,
that they talk about sometimes?
The sign of Jonah would be.
Matthew 12 is he?

SPEAKER_04 (27:28):
Matthew 12, 39.

SPEAKER_01 (27:31):
Matthew 12.
39?

SPEAKER_04 (27:35):
Yep.

SPEAKER_01 (27:37):
Okay, the sign of Jonah.
Let's just get the largercontext here.
Oh, yeah, they just accusedJesus of invoking Satan to heal,
I think.
Yeah.
It's a bad day for Jesus.
And then um And then uh he'stalking about make it sound, uh
make a tree sound and its fruitwill be sound, make a tree

(27:57):
rotten and its fruit will berotten.
Um you brood of vipers, how canyour speech be good when you are
evil?
Yeah.
Jesus is giving it to him.
Um and then it stops, he stopsand says, I tell you this, that
for every unfounded word peoplewill utter, they will answer on
judgment day.
Since it is your words, since itis by your words you will be

(28:18):
justified, and by your wordscondemned.
And then this is where he breaksinto the sign of Jonah.
Then some of the scribes andPharisees spoke up.
Master, they said, We shouldlike to see a sign from you.
He replied, It is an evil andunfaithful generation that asks
for a sign.
The only sign it will be givenis the sign of the prophet

(28:39):
Jonah.
For as Jonah remained in thebelly of the sea monster for
three days and three nights, sowill the Son of Man be in the
heart of the earth for threedays and three nights.
On judgment day, the men ofNineveh will appear against this
generation, and they will be itscondemnation.
Because when Jonah preached,they repented.

(29:00):
And look, there is somethinggreater than Jonah here.
So it seems to be that sign ofthe three days in the belly.
Interesting, I've never tried todo it.
It's like the triton correlatedthe two.
It's beautiful, huh?

SPEAKER_06 (29:14):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (29:16):
Yeah, and I never made that association if that's
what the sign of Jonah meant.

SPEAKER_00 (29:20):
No.

SPEAKER_01 (29:22):
Huh.
So how did they mention here?
The unique event.
Okay.
The sign of the temple.
Destroy this temple and I'llraise it up.
Wow.
Very cool.
And they they would have knownthe story of Jonah, so to them
it would, you know, it wouldhave really resonated.

SPEAKER_00 (29:37):
Interesting.

SPEAKER_01 (29:38):
Yeah.
Okay, somebody else want to readum the next two paragraphs.
95, 96.

SPEAKER_05 (29:47):
I can read them.
To be a witness to Christ is tobe a witness to his
resurrection.
To have eaten and drunk of himafter he rose from the dead.
Encounters with the risen Christcharacterize the Christian hope
of resurrection.
We shall rise like Christ, withhim and through him.

(30:09):
From the beginning, Christianfaith and the resurrection has
met with incomprehension andopposition.
On no point does the Christianfaith encounter more opposition
than on the resurrection of thebody.
It is very commonly acceptedthat the life of the human
person continues in a spiritualfashion after death.
But how can we believe that thisbody, so clearly mortal, could

(30:33):
rise to everlasting life?

SPEAKER_01 (30:36):
This is going to be good.
Just one comment on 95.
Interesting how how Eucharisticthe sense of being a witness is.
To be a witness to Christ is tohave eaten and drunk with him
after he rose from the dead.
It's like we're witnesses, butwe're and the and the whole word

(30:57):
mass, the word mass is takenfrom the very end of the liturgy
where the priest would say inLatin, meet Misa est, which
means go forth.
So the mass is ascending forth.
You're fed and you're nourished,and then you're ready to go out
to be mission, missionary.
Um so that kind of makes sense.
You're fed for for the sake ofmission.

(31:20):
Okay, now we're gonna get intogood stuff about the body, which
I think is true.
It's I think we still have thisvery dualistic view where the
body is the thing we're gonnaleave behind and we're gonna be
purely spirit, you know, inheaven.
But the church has always held,you know, our body we get our
bodies back.
Uh somebody want to read um thisnext section?

(31:41):
I think maybe let's do let's doum the first two of them.
979.

unknown (31:49):
Okay.

SPEAKER_07 (31:50):
Okay.
What is rising?
In death, the separation of thesoul from the body.
The human body decays, and thesoul goes to meet God while
awaiting its reunion with itsglorified body.
God in his almighty power willdefinitively grant incorruptible
life to our bodies by reunitingthem with our souls through the

(32:11):
power of Jesus' resurrection.
Who will rise?
All the dead will rise, thosewho have done good to the
resurrection of life, and thosewho have done evil to the
resurrection of judgment.

SPEAKER_01 (32:24):
Actually, the Catholic sensibility about the
body is really um probablycloser to Judaism than anything
else.
Um the Jewish people, the Hebrewpeople, have this real sense
that your life is your body, andthat um when the body dies, the
life is over, you know.
And so the resurrection of thedead is this great uh mystery of

(32:48):
you know um being resurrected.
And for them it would be if theywere to believe in an afterlife,
that's almost just a given.
Of course, you have your body,because your body's part of who
you are.
It's not I have a body or I owna body.
I am a body.
I think Barbara was talkingabout that yesterday, I think, a
little bit too.
That's really what Jean-Paul IIis so focused on that in his

(33:11):
theology of the body, it's likeit's it's it's real an integral
part of the person.
It's it's the way that we are asacrament of an image of God.
We we communicate with throughour bodies.

SPEAKER_02 (33:25):
So please.
Um okay, so we die.
Uh-huh.
Tell it to me like I'm two yearsold.

SPEAKER_01 (33:33):
Okay, well what do you think?

SPEAKER_02 (33:35):
Okay, so we come to um so um okay, so we die,
uh-huh, and then at some pointwe so our spirit exists with
God.
My soul.
Um, and then at some point thatsomething's gonna happen.

SPEAKER_01 (33:55):
And yeah, and and and I don't want to be
simplistic about this, becauseit the there's a there's a
here's a big problem for us isthat we experience things in
time.
Where God is outside time.
He's right.
Time is a construct for him.
I mean, it's just everything isan eternal present to him.
Right.
So you could almost say that themoment the soul dies, they're

(34:15):
with him, you know, in a sense,with the body.
We experience this kind of weirdsense of delay, you know,
because with those of us who areleft behind, you know, there's
that soul, that body that hasdied and included decaying.
Um we have not seen that bodyrise from the dead.
But to God that's alreadyhappened.
It's it's I I don't know if I'vemade it more or less clear by

(34:38):
saying that, but it's a mystery.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (34:41):
But like all of our all of our brothers and sisters
who have who have passed onalready, they're not, they don't
have their bodies yet.
And they won't.
Would it be true to say thatthey're not going to experience
the the fullness of heaven untiltheir body has united with their
soul?

SPEAKER_01 (35:01):
Tell you what, I think uh maybe I'm doing these
paragraphs too slowly because weare gonna talk about there's two
judgments.
There's the particular judgment,and then there's the universal
judgment at the end of time, thelast judgment.
So it's actually two kind ofevents.
And uh I'm pretty sure we'regonna cover those paragraphs, so
we should probably just, yeah,let's hold that question and see
if we get it answered here by byuh our reading.

(35:24):
Cool.
Uh who wants to read uh the restof this section?
2001.
Love it.
Uh okay, so how?
Christ is raised with his ownbody.
See my hands and my feet, thatit is I myself.

(35:44):
But he did not return to anearthly life.
So in him all of them will riseagain with their own bodies,
which they now bear.
But Christ will change our lowlybody to be like his glorious
body into a spiritual body.
But someone will ask, How arethe dead raised?
With what kind of body do theycome?

(36:05):
You foolish man, what you sow,what you sow does not come to
life unless it dies.
And what you sow is not only thebody, is not the body which is
to be, but a bare kernel.
What is sown is perishable, whatis raised is imperishable.
The dead will be raisedimperishable.
For this perishable nature mustput on the imperishable, and

(36:28):
this mortal nature must put onimmortality.
Ah, that's St.
Paul.
This how exceeds our imaginationand understanding.
It is accessible only to faith.
Yet our participation in theEucharist already gives us a
foretaste of Christ'stransfiguration of our bodies.

(36:50):
Just as bread that comes fromthe earth, after God's blessing
has been invoked upon it, is nolonger ordinary bread, but
Eucharist, formed of two things,the one earthly and the other
heavenly, so too our bodies,which partake of the Eucharist,
are no longer corruptible, butpossess the hope of
resurrection.

(37:12):
When?
Definitively at the last day, atthe end of the world.
Indeed, the resurrection of thedead is closely associated with
Christ's parocia.
For the Lord Himself willdescend from heaven with a cry
of command, with the archangel'sarchangel's call, and with the
sound of the trumpet of God, andthe dead in Christ will rise

(37:36):
first.
I love that Eucharist stuff.
That's very cool.
It's a kind of knowing, it'sjust not the kind of knowing

(37:57):
that we're used to.
We always think of scientificknowing, like show me the
footage on CNN.
It's not that kind of knowing.

SPEAKER_02 (38:06):
Show me that more like love or something.

SPEAKER_01 (38:09):
Yeah, love is the kind of knowledge.
Exactly.
It's like the highest form ofknowledge.
Okay.
Um who wants to do the risenwith Christ paragraphs?
Three of them.

SPEAKER_03 (38:24):
I can do it.

SPEAKER_02 (38:25):
Let's do what you want to do with I've had like
contact problems this time.
Oh, yeah.

unknown (38:38):
That's cool.

SPEAKER_04 (38:40):
Risen with Christ.
Um, how many one in 1002 to thenext three paragraphs?
Christ will raise us up on thelast day, but it is also true
that in a certain way we havealready risen with Christ.
For by virtue of the HolySpirit, Christian life is
already now on earth aparticipation in the death and

(39:01):
resurrection of Christ.
And you were buried with him inbaptism, in which you were also
raised with him through faith inthe working of God, who raised
him from the dead.
If then you have been raisedwith Christ, seek the things
that are above, where Christ is,seated at the right hand of God.

(39:23):
United with Christ by baptism,believers already truly
participate in the heavenly lifeof the risen Christ, but this
life remains hidden with Christin God.
The Father has already raised usup with him, and made us sit and
made us sit with him in theheavenly places in Christ Jesus.
Nourished with his body in theEucharist, we already belong to

(39:45):
the body of Christ.
When we rise on the last day, wealso will appear with him in
glory.
In expectation of that day, thebeliever's body and soul already
participate in the dignity ofbelonging to Christ.
This dignity entails the demandthat he should treat with

(40:06):
respect his own body, but alsothe body of every other person,
especially the suffering.
The body is meant for the Lord,and the Lord for the body.
And God raised the Lord and willalso raise us up by his power.
Do you not know that your bodiesare members of Christ?
You are not your you are notyour own, so glorify God in your

(40:31):
body.

SPEAKER_01 (40:35):
You could give you could do a whole session just on
that last paragraph.
This is so counterintuitive andso counter-cultural that we we
revere the body with that kindof reverence.
I mean, this is really whatpeople think the church is upset
about pornography because we'reprudish.
That's not it at all.

(40:57):
Um John Paul has got this greatquote.
Um he says, you know, theproblem with pornography is not
that it reveals too much, uh,but that it reveals too little.
It reveals the body withoutrevealing the person.
Um and that's the problem, isyou you get this, you see a body
and it's it's just not, youdon't understand the who of that

(41:20):
body.
It's just the what.
And when you just look at thewhat, you're tempted to do
things like, you know, uh stemcell research.
You're tempted to do all kindsof invasive things.
You're tempted to mutilate it,you're tempted to put it to rest
when suffering comes in, you'retempted to abort it before it
comes into the world.

(41:41):
Um it's really it's really hardto really grasp the church's
teaching on human life unlessyou have this vision of the
glory of the body, what it'scalled to.
It's really rich.
Okay, now we've talked aboutresurrection.

(42:03):
It's beautiful because look atthe catechism.
It doesn't start by talkingabout death, really, so much,
does it?
Not so much.
It sort of puts it in thecontext of the resurrection, and
now we're gonna find out what itmeans to die in Christ.
All right, um, dying in ChristJesus.
Who wants to read?
No, no, that's fine.
Go ahead.
Oh no, please, please.

SPEAKER_05 (42:24):
We're here at Christ.
Thousand five?
Yeah.
Yep.
Yep, thousand five.
To rise with Christ, we must diewith Christ.
We must be away from the bodyand at home with the Lord.
In that departure, which isdeath, the soul is separated
from the body.
It will be reunited with thebody on the day of resurrection
of the dead.

SPEAKER_01 (42:45):
Okay.
There's where that whole thing Iwas trying to get at in the
introduction.
It's it's you read thatparagraph and you're like, I
don't know anything about thatlittle in-between thing.
You know, that's it's like it'slike learning to walk.
You know, you've got the infantwho's in his mother's arms, and
he's toddler, he's about to takehis first steps.
And I think there's a lot thatyou can say about this.
It's like, okay, there's amother holding the toddler, the

(43:06):
dad's across the living room,you know, and the toddler's
about to start walking.
And the mom's role is kind ofsupporting that child from
behind, but the father's out onthe other side of the room with
his arms open.
The father's not going to runacross the room and grab his
arms because then he's not goingto learn to walk.
He's going to let that toddlertake a couple steps, fall, and
then get up again, andeventually he's going to learn.
But that it's kind of this thingthat we have to learn, and what

(43:28):
John of the Cross and all themystics are getting at with our
the dying to ourselves is wehave to we have to experience
this death in order to get tothe father's house.
But there's a little thisin-between time which we're not
really comfortable with.
Um anybody else want to commenton on anything we read here?

(43:52):
There'll be a lot more coming.
Anybody want to read uh thedeath paragraphs?
Sure.
Okay.
Uh which numbers for the number.

SPEAKER_07 (44:00):
Why don't we do through all nine?
Okay.
It is in regard to death thatman's condition is most shrouded
in doubt.
In a sense, bodily death isnatural, but for faith it is in
fact the wages of sin.
For those who die in Christ'sgrace, it is a participation in
the death of the Lord, so thatthey can also share his

(44:20):
resurrection.
Death is the end of earthlylife.
Our lives are measured by time,in the course of which we
change, grow old, and as withall living beings on earth,
death seems like the normal endof life.
That aspect of death lendsurgency to our lives.
Remembering our mortality helpsus realize that we have only a

(44:41):
limited time in which to bringour lives to fulfillment.
Remember also your Creator inthe days of your youth, before
the dust returns to the earth asit was, and the Spirit returns
to God who gave it.
Death is a consequence of sin.
The Church's Magisterium, asauthentic interpreter of the

(45:02):
affirmations of Scripture andtradition, teaches that death
entered the world on account ofman's sin.
Even though man's nature ismortal, God had destined him not
to die.
Death was therefore contrary tothe plans of God the Creator,
and entered the world as aconsequence of sin.
Bodily death from which manwould have been immune had he

(45:24):
not sinned is thus the lastenemy of man left to be
conquered.
Death is transformed by Christ.
Jesus, the Son of God, alsohimself suffered the death that
is part of the human condition.
Yet, despite his anguish as hefaced death, he accepted it in
an act of complete and freesubmission to his father's will.

(45:45):
The obedience of Jesus hastransformed the curse of death
into a blessing.

SPEAKER_01 (45:56):
So in a sense, you know, our aversion to death is
is right.
You know, it's we should be, youknow, it's not our natural
state.
We weren't created to die.
It's a reality that came intolife through sin.
So in that sense, you know, Idon't want to say that, you
know, we should have a naturalliking for death.
I think we should have anaversion for it.

(46:16):
But I think we also need to knowthat it's a path it's a path by
which you know we'retransformed.
God has turned this ugly, evil,horrible thing into something
beautiful.
I like what it says abouturgency in 1007.

(46:40):
Our lives are measured by time.
Death seems like the normal endof life.
That aspect of death lendsurgency to our lives.
Remembering our mortality helpsus realize we have only a
limited time in which to bringour lives to fulfillment.
Uh the Carthusian monks, startedby St.
Bruno in like the 12th century,uh, they lived a contemplative

(47:04):
life.
Um, when I went to Steubenville,we had a semester abroad in
Austria, and it was in aCarthusian monastery outside of
Vienna called the Karthusa.
Because it's a Carthusian house.
And um their apostate was makingbeer.
But they they lived acontemplative life, very
secluded monastic life.
And uh they greet each other inthe hall.

(47:25):
The only thing that they said toeach other was um, I think it's
I don't know Latin.
There's something called MomentaMori.
Uh brother, remember your death.
It sounds morbid, but it's notat all that.
It's it's just that, you know,okay, this life today's given to
you.
What are you gonna do about it?
Because it could be your last.
You know.
So it lends urgency to our life.

(47:46):
We're not just yawning andwatching reruns of Seinfeld and
just like, what am I gonna dotomorrow?

SPEAKER_07 (47:55):
Criticize everything the other.

SPEAKER_01 (47:59):
I touched her, I touched the thing that she's
gonna have to give up before shegets the fun done.
But the thing is, about anythingthat we have to give up, it's
not that we have to give up,it's not that they're bad
things.
We get it back in having themkind of figured.
And this is another image that Ilove from kind of from St.
John of the Cross to CarmeliteSpirituality, is um this whole

(48:20):
idea of um we everything good ismeant for us.
God wants everything good forus, but the fact is that we're
grasping after it because wedon't trust, because of the
original sin, our lack of trustin the Father.
We're always grabbing things onour own time and on our own
terms.
And it's like a kid who's justlearning how to eat.

(48:41):
And I don't know if you've seenthis, but I've seen this in my
nephews and nieces.
You know, they're just learningto eat, and mom's got a spoon
with uh whatever, the mashedpuree bananas or whatever on it.
And uh the kid sitting there inthe high chair, grabbing at the
spoon, because they want to feedthemselves.
The problem is when they try tograb the spoon, the food goes
everywhere, and none of it getsin their mouth.
They don't know how to get itthere.

(49:02):
They want it really badly, butyou know, it's like shh up in
there for.
So what they need to do is stopgrabbing the spoon.
Stop grabbing the spoon, andthen suddenly the parent is able
to get the food right into theirmouth.
But it doesn't happen until theystop grasping.
So that's kind of the kind ofthe principle of the spiritual
life, why there's this sense ofyou know, detachment from

(49:22):
everything and say, it's gonnacome back to me transfigured.
As soon as I offer it back toGod, whatever it is I most want
that He doesn't seem to begiving me, um, as soon as I can
offer that back and say, I willreceive it on your terms when
you want it for me, because youknow best when I need it and how
I need it.
Um it's amazing how quickly, assoon as you give something up in
that way, you receive it back ina much fuller and more beautiful

(49:43):
way than you had it when youwere grabbing it.
So I think that's kind of whatthey're getting at here.
Any other thoughts on this deathsection?

SPEAKER_00 (50:00):
Do you have an example of that?

SPEAKER_01 (50:03):
Sure, let me think of a couple.
Um I remember when I was incollege, uh, I lived on campus,
but one summer I had to stay anddo summer school, and I didn't
have a place to live.
And I was, you know, 21 at thetime.
I'd never lived away from home,I've never had my own apartment,
whatever.
I was freaked out.
Like every morning I'd wake upand I'd be anxious and I'd be

(50:24):
going and and grabbing thenewspaper and trying to figure
out where I was gonna live, andI was doing a terrible job
because I was nervous andanxious and freaked out.
So I wasn't making gooddecisions, and I I thought,
well, you know, this is gonnatake weeks.
I've just got to spend all mytime for three weeks doing this.
I was, yeah.
I wasn't in a good way.
But I was freaked out, and Iwasn't really asking God, you
know, to help in this process,you know.

(50:46):
Not aware that, you know, I heunderstands that I'm not a
mature adult, that I need help,that I I don't know what I'm
doing.
So um I remember clearly thisone day I had to go up to the
chapel, and I just I was so wornout I couldn't figure it out.
For the life of me, I'd alreadymoved back to Steubenville for
the summer, but I still didn'thave a place to live.
So I remember going up to theEucharistic chapel and and just

(51:07):
spending an hour with the Lordand just saying, listen, I I I
don't know what I'm doing.
I don't know what I'm doing.
And um it's like within a day Ihad a perfect place to live with
the great landlord, close towalking distance, because I
didn't have a car, walkingdistance to school and stuff.
And it was just a small thing,but it was just sort of like,
oh, you know, if I'd asked youfirst, I could have saved myself

(51:28):
a lot of travail.
You know, I I'm not my ownprovider, I'm not my own father.
Um I have a father.
So, you know, it's different.
Uh far better than I could havearranged, even if I'd spent all
night for three weeks lookingfor a place.
So, um yeah, and it's just beena pattern I've just noticed when

(51:52):
I'm anxious or sad.
Sadness.
Sadness is a great sign in thespiritual life that there's
something, because sadness isn'tfrom the Holy Spirit.
Sadness, a great sign in my lifethat there's something that I'm
not letting go of that's keepingme back.
Um, something that I'm clingingto that's less than God.
Um as soon as I can just releasethat, even if it's just an act

(52:12):
of the will, I don't have tofeel detached from something.
Feelings come and go, and thoseare whatever.
If I can just let go and trustand just say, okay, I really am
having a hard time, but I needto let go of this.
Um it's amazing what God can do.
Another quick example is um Ijust left my job at KB Home
where I'd been in corporateAmerica for three years.

(52:33):
And um I really got the jobthrough God's providence, I
believe, and set me up for a lotof things I'm about to do.
But while I was there, I think Ikind of lost sight of that and I
got very comfortable.
I worked really hard, I had agood job, good teammates.
I was stressed out a lot, it wasa difficult, stressful job, but
I was happy and and I don't it'samazing how quickly I get

(52:55):
comfortable, even in stressfulwork.
It's like, this is familiar tome.
I could do this for a long timebecause frankly I don't know
what else I'd be doing.
So, um, but I got a sense likelast fall, a real sense that I'd
I just I was spent.
I couldn't stay there very muchlonger.
And I made a promise to myselflast September, I'm gonna be
starting to look for a new jobby next May.

(53:16):
And um I didn't know exactlywhat that was gonna look like,
but I I just at a certain pointI just surrendered it to God and
said, okay, I don't know whatyou have in mind, but I need
out.
So um sure enough, overChristmas break, I got a call
out of the blue from my bossback in Minnesota saying, We'd
love you to come back andredevelop the website you built
for us five years ago.
And it's like a four-monthcontract position, it'd be a

(53:37):
perfect transition for me out ofmy current job.
I was like, wow, I couldn'tapply in something that perfect,
you know.
Um God had set up something thatwas much better than I could
have anticipated.
And I was still anxious a littlebit because they didn't hadn't
signed a contract to redevelopthis site, and I wasn't, they
weren't, they hadn't promised methe job yet.
But I went back with that, andthat was just it seems like God
would give me just enoughknowledge, and then I had to

(54:00):
make a step out in faith.
So I told my boss, my currentboss, that I was leaving.
Um, and I was a little freakedout that day.
But that night I went home, andby the time I got home, I had
three job offers between myemail and my voicemail.
I had not been soliciting anywork yet, I hadn't told anybody.
And it's like, okay, alright, Itrust you now.

(54:23):
It's those sort of things.
Um those are just my experience.
I'm not saying that this isabsolutely what everybody's
gonna experience, but it's like,hmm, it seems to be true.
As soon as I can let go, um,God's free to lead me.
But uh, yeah.
Back to death.

(54:45):
I'm gonna I'm gonna startselecting paragraphs because I
weren't.
I really encourage you to readall these paragraphs, but I want
to hit a little bit of each oneof these topics.
Um, how about from death here?
How about 1011?
We picked that one as the restof these about death.
Anybody want to read that one?

SPEAKER_05 (55:12):
You're a good reader.
You are, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (55:15):
Yeah, you're right.
It's only because George isgiving me the glare of In death,
God calls man to himself.
Therefore, the Christian canexperience a desire for death,
like St.
Paul's.
My desire is to depart and bewith Christ.
He can transform his own deathinto an act of obedience and

(55:39):
love towards the Father afterthe example of Christ.
My earthly desire has beencrucified.
There is living water in me,water that murmurs and saith and
says within me, Come to theFather.
I want to see God, and in orderto see him, I must die.

(56:00):
I am not dying, I am enteringlife.

SPEAKER_01 (56:04):
I love that.
It's clearly we're not listeningto somebody who's who's in some
kind of painful resignationhere.
Or there's this boldness andthis sense of anticipation and
joy here.
You know?
It's not like, oh well, God hascaused me to die.
It says it's gonna do somethinggreat, but whatever.
It's it's really thisanticipation, this sense of uh

(56:24):
hope.
Looking forward.
And it takes a long I think ittakes a long time to get to that
disposition, but it's we'recalled to it and it's possible.
The saints show us it is.
Um okay, so there's uh all I'mgonna say about death here so

(56:47):
much.
Let's go into this next section.
Um the particular judgmentstarts on 1021.
I'll read these two paragraphshere.
The particular judgment.

(57:07):
Death puts an end to human lifeas the time open to either
accepting or rejecting thedivine grace manifest in Christ.
The New Testament speaks ofjudgment primarily in its aspect
of the final encounter withChrist in his second coming, but
also repeatedly affirms thateach will be rewarded
immediately after death inaccordance with his works and

(57:30):
faith.
The parable of the poor manLazarus and the words of Christ
on the cross to the good thief,as well as other New Testament
texts, speak of a final destinyof the soul, a destiny which can
be different for some and forothers.
Each man receives his eternalretribution in his immortal soul

(57:51):
at the very moment of his death,in a particular judgment that
refers his life to Christ.
Either entrance into theblessedness of heaven through a
purification, or immediately, orimmediate and everlasting
damnation.
And there's a quote, beautifulquote here from John of the

(58:13):
Cross.
At the evening of life, we willbe judged on our love.
So we're not talking about alaundry list of did you do this,
did you not do that?
It's like, what is the conditionof your heart at that moment?
And not that your acts areunimportant, your acts reveal
and confirm your heart.

(58:33):
But at the end of life, it's notthis laundry list of, oops, you
missed that one.
At the evening of life, we willbe judged on our love.
Also, um, notice that thismoment this particular judgment
is the dividing moment.
It's really the moment of truth,you know.

(58:53):
It's it's heaven or hell.
And it may be by way heaven byway of purgatory, which is what
they're talking about with thatpurification.
But per pure purgatory is notbad news.
It's it's good news.
Uh, because nobody goes backfrom purgatory.
Purgatory is always the the forechamber of heaven.
Um it's a place of mercy and andpreparation.

(59:14):
But uh so the particularjudgment is really where the
rubber hits the road.
Um heaven.
Who wants to read?
Let me see which paragraph wouldbe best for us on heaven.

(59:43):
Who would like to read this?
1024, 1025, maybe.

SPEAKER_07 (01:00:00):
With the most holy trinity.
This communion of life and lovewith the Trinity, with the
Virgin Mary, the angels, and allthe blessed is called heaven.
Heaven is the ultimate end andfulfillment of the deepest human
longings, the state of supremedefinitive happiness.
To live in heaven is to be withChrist.
The elect live in Christ, butthey retain, or rather find,

(01:00:21):
their true identity, their ownname.
For life is to be with Christ,where Christ is, there is life,
there is the kingdom.

SPEAKER_01 (01:00:33):
St.
Ambrose was uh bishop, and hewas also the teacher of St.
Augustine.
He's the mentor.

SPEAKER_02 (01:00:43):
Is he a doctor?

SPEAKER_01 (01:00:45):
Yes.
I think he well, I hold it.
I'm not sure about thatactually.
St.

SPEAKER_04 (01:00:49):
Ambrose?

SPEAKER_01 (01:00:50):
Is he a doctor?

SPEAKER_04 (01:00:50):
Yeah, I'm pretty sure he is.

SPEAKER_01 (01:00:52):
Alright.
I wasn't sure about that.

SPEAKER_04 (01:00:53):
Pretty sure.
Pretty sure.

SPEAKER_01 (01:00:55):
If he's not, he was mentored a doctor.

SPEAKER_04 (01:00:57):
Yeah, I'm I'm almost certain that he is.

SPEAKER_01 (01:00:59):
Yeah, I think he is too, actually.
Yeah.
Um We had that whole class, Ithink we had a whole class.
When we started talking aboutthe moral life, remember the
class we had on life in Christ.
Um this paragraph kind of ishere's kind of the sum up of
that.
Heaven, the ultimate end andfulfillment of our deepest human
lyings.

(01:01:20):
It's not just the place that Godlikes us to be, it's it's what
we most desire.
It's it's built into us, it'swhat we're called to.
Every human being is called tobe attitude.

SPEAKER_07 (01:01:32):
Um I was just remembering a um thing in Secret
of Mercy where um SheldonBernacken was grieving the loss
of Davy and um he uh was tryingto understand the concept of
etern eternity and um kind ofcoming to the end of his

(01:01:53):
grieving process, um he realizedthat perhaps one way to describe
what eternity might be, becausehe was he was trying to find how
do you describe you knowingpeople or what you do in in
someplace where you you're notbound by time.
Because all the all the words hecould think of is, you know,
we'll go and do this, and uh anduh he realized um it might be

(01:02:18):
the the same eternity might bethe same uh or I guess you could
say our life right now is likereading um brothers Karamatsov,
or I'm trying to remember whatbook he cited specifically as
like a Dickens book, maybe.
And um you know that one ofthose characters in the story
from in each stage of theirlife, yeah.

(01:02:39):
As it's unfolding.
And then when you finish thebook, you close it and you know
them all at once, all thosemoments at once.
It's beautiful.
And um I said that might be oneway to describe eternity.
Yeah.
Yeah, because it's not.

SPEAKER_01 (01:02:54):
Yeah, and and it's uh there's that sense um of of
of heaven being not just unionwith Christ, but union with
everyone, united within thiswhole communion of saints.
It's a little hard for us tounpack that.
It's like how do we experienceintimacy with more than one
person at one time?
But in heaven, it'll be, I don'tknow, it's like a single face,

(01:03:18):
you know, a thousand instancesof a single face.
I don't know.

SPEAKER_05 (01:03:23):
It's interesting because I think currently in
society, the closest you get tosomething like that and the
popularity of these big sportingrooms is that that sense of
you're all rooting for thisteam, and now there's two teams.
That's the closest we get to youknow to being single-minded and

(01:03:46):
in, you know, and rooting in onedirection.

SPEAKER_01 (01:03:48):
Exactly.
And it's beautiful that it seemsto be hardwired into our nature
because that really gives you achance to, you know, reach
people who, you know, don'tthink about it in religious or
terms.
It's you know, it's in everyhuman heart.
It's designed for union andcommunion.
Okay, so that's the we talkedabout the particular judgment a

(01:04:08):
little bit of heaven.
How about purgatory round it outfor us, I think, here.
Oh, purgatory in the lastjudgment.
Um Purgatory.
This one's important enough, Ithink I'll read the whole
section.
The final purification, orpurgatory.

(01:04:32):
All who die in God's grace andfriendship, but still
imperfectly purified, are indeedassured of their eternal
salvation.
But after death, they undergopurification so as to achieve
the holiness necessary to enterthe joy of heaven.
The church gives the namePurgatory to this final
purification of the elect, whichis entirely different from the

(01:04:55):
punishment of the damned.
The Church formulated herdoctrine of faith on purgatory,
especially at the councils ofFlorence and Trent.
The tradition of the Church, byreference to certain texts of
Scripture, speaks of a cleansingfire.
As for certain lesser faults, wemust believe that before the

(01:05:17):
final judgment there is apurifying fire.
He who is true says that whoeverutters blasphemy against the
Holy Spirit will be pardonedneither in this age nor in the
age to come.
From this sentence we understandthat certain offenses can be
forgiven in this age, butcertain others in the age to

(01:05:38):
come.
This teaching is also based onthe practice of prayer for the
dead, already mentioned insacred scripture.
Therefore, Judas Macabaeus madeatonement for the dead, that
they might be delivered fromtheir sin.
From the beginning, the churchhas honored the memory of the
dead and offered prayers andsuffrage for them, above all the

(01:05:58):
Eucharistic sacrifice, so thatthus purified they may attain
the beatific vision of God.
The Church also commendsalmsgiving, indulgences, and
works of penance undertaken onbehalf of the dead.
Let us help and commemoratethem.
If Job's sons were purified bytheir father's sacrifice, why
would we doubt that ourofferings for the dead bring

(01:06:20):
them some consolation?
Let us not hesitate to helpthose who have died and to offer
our prayers for them.
St.
John for assistance.
Okay, that's kind of a biggiefor those of you who are coming
from a Protestant background.
Is there anything you guys wantto talk about or unpack there?
Old idea of purgatory?

(01:06:41):
I know we did spend some timetalking about indulgences when
it came up before.

SPEAKER_07 (01:06:47):
With purgatory.
Since we're doing this uh classwhere we actually get to read
literature to understandtheology, which is great.
Um what what uh sort of picturedoes Dante have not read how
accurate is.

SPEAKER_01 (01:07:04):
It's a good question.
I have not read the second bookof Divine Comedy, so I can't
tell you from first.

SPEAKER_04 (01:07:10):
It's on my list to read.
It's hypothetically I haven'tread it yet.

SPEAKER_01 (01:07:13):
Um I think from everything I've heard about the
Divine Comedy, it's a beautifulmeditation.
It's theologically problematicin some ways, but it's it's it's
got some beautiful points to it.
I mean, the church has neverspelled out the things that he's
documented about hell, forinstance.
Um like the number of peoplethere.

(01:07:34):
Church hasn't as completelyagnostic as to who is in hell.
Um it believes in the it knowsthe place of it, but it teaches
us to pray for the salvation ofeverybody.
Not and that doesn't thatdoesn't discount the fact of its
existence, but it doesn't evendeclare Judas to be in hell.
Saints very positive in thatregard.
This beautiful thing ofcanonizing saints, but we don't,

(01:07:55):
you know, immortalize people inhell like that person.
We don't have process ofdamnation until we have a
canonization.

SPEAKER_00 (01:08:03):
Yeah, that's a good point.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (01:08:05):
Which is really important, really, when you
think about it, because when youthink of the case of
homosexuality, for instance,people who are who are actively
living that life, yeah, youknow, it's wrong for us to say,
Oh, you're going to hell becausewe don't know that.
We don't know we don't knowwhat's going on in their soul,
we don't know what God is seeingand what we're not.

SPEAKER_01 (01:08:23):
So yeah, a couple weeks ago when we talked about
um double effects, and some ofthat one of the things we talked
about was presumption.
That whole thing the church isvery careful not to engage in,
but we're doing it all the time.
Especially in Hollywood, andwhen we regard their
celebrities, like, oh, theymeant this or they intended
that.
It's like, no, you don't know.
Yeah, you are not inside thatperson's soul.
And to declare our net judgment,which is reserved for God, it's

(01:08:47):
a real dangerous place to be.

SPEAKER_05 (01:08:49):
We also don't know God's mercy.
No, do we ever not know that?
We don't.
I mean for all we know at thelast moment.

SPEAKER_01 (01:08:57):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (01:08:58):
I mean we just don't know.

SPEAKER_01 (01:08:59):
Yeah, that's a moment between soul and God.
We yeah.
Yeah.
Um, hell.
This should be fun.
Who wants to read about hell?

SPEAKER_07 (01:09:16):
Whoever reads about it needs to like be just
environment brimstones?

SPEAKER_01 (01:09:23):
Like Deanna, give us the Jonathan Edwards.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 (01:09:31):
Yeah, there you go.

SPEAKER_03 (01:09:33):
Hell.
We cannot be united with Godunless we freely choose to love
him.
But we cannot love God if we singravely against him.
Against our neighbor or againstourselves.
He who does not love remains indeath.
Anyone who hates his brother isa murderer.
And you know that no murdererhas eternal life abiding in him.

SPEAKER_01 (01:09:56):
Okay.

SPEAKER_03 (01:09:56):
Alright, I'll tell you.

SPEAKER_01 (01:09:58):
That's enough.

SPEAKER_04 (01:09:59):
Um that we shall be separated from him if we fail to
meet the serious needs of thepoor and the little ones who are
his brethren.
To die in mortal sin withoutrepenting and accepting God's
merciful love means remainingseparated from him forever by
our own free choice.
This state of definitiveself-exclusion from communion

(01:10:21):
with God and the blessed iscalled hell.

SPEAKER_01 (01:10:24):
Oh, we should stop there.
There's a lot here.
Um, you know, the point is to beunited with God.
But God's a gentleman, he's notgoing to force himself on us.
He's looking for our freeresponse.
I think Barbara brought that upin the talk on suffering
yesterday.
It was when Karen Hall was inher class, or Barbara Hall was
in her class.

(01:10:44):
And um, something like, youknow, why did God show up two
thousand years ago and he hasn'treturned again yet?
Well, God was completely ready.
He had his bags packed.
We were uh we're the onescausing the delay.
We're just not ready to receivehim.
So it's it's that whole thing.
It's like God's just waiting forour free response.
And and all he wants is a firstsign of it.
If you look at the story of theprodigal son, um, when the son

(01:11:07):
decides that he's tired ofeating the slop of pigs, he he
comes back and in his mind, onthe way back, he's rehearsing
what he's gonna say, how he'sgonna apologize, and express his
sorrow to his father.
Well, his father doesn't evenknow what he's going to say.
He just sees his son in thedistance.
And it says, While he was a longway off, his father saw him and

(01:11:27):
ran to him.
So it's that whole sense of, youknow, God is so eager that we
just need to be eager like heis.

SPEAKER_04 (01:11:34):
And that it's not God who ultimately, I mean, he
he allows us to go to hell, butit's it's we our it's our souls,
it's it's we as our person whodecide.

SPEAKER_01 (01:11:43):
That's the last line is so powerful.
This state of definitiveself-exclusion from communion
with God and the blessed.
So all this ranting and ravingabout I hate Catholicism because
it's a religion where Godcondemns me to hell.
Nope, nope, you you can takecare of that yourself.
Yeah, nobody else sends youthere.

SPEAKER_04 (01:12:04):
Right.
It's a true hatred of God,hatred of his mercy, hatred of
his love, yeah, and just a abelief that I'm so sinful that
there is no place for me butthat.

SPEAKER_01 (01:12:16):
Has anybody read um the play by Sartre, uh, No Exit?
It's this story about theafterlife, and it's it's this
kind of strange play all set inone room, and the four people in
that room have we find out thatthat room is hell.
Um, and basically what hell is,is a group dynamic.
They all are getting on eachother's nerves.

(01:12:37):
The thing that really irritatesthis person, and the thing that
irritates that person, they'relike perfectly complemented to
piss each other off all daylong.
And so uh but hell is is thisgroup dynamic, and I think it's
like an anti-trinity, you know.
It's rather than theself-giving, it's this um the
self-loathing and the loathingof the other, and you you're

(01:12:57):
giving that back and forth toeach other all all day long.
Um it's also, I think C.
S.
Lewis's vision of hell is prettybrilliant.
Somewhere he's kind of spelledit out like hell is not a place,
and the church has actually comeup pretty strongly on this too.
Um it's a it's a it's a not asituation, it's an experience,
it's a condition.

(01:13:20):
And I think the idea is thatit's it's a the afterlife is the
fire of God's love.
And for those of them that havebeen opening themselves up and
purifying them to receive thislove, it's heaven.
For those that are, you know,have some chaff and stuff to be
burned away, that same fire ispurgatory.
But for the soul who's justdecided they don't want anything

(01:13:40):
of it, that hell is is acharring, burning experience.
You can't get away from it.
You can't escape from love.
Um, and that's that's asuffering for those who have
chosen it.
Uh so that's gonna losesuspicion.
It's it's uh we're all in thesame place, we just experience
it differently.

(01:14:01):
Um, let's continue.

SPEAKER_04 (01:14:04):
Jesus often speaks of Gehenna, of the unquenchable
fire reserved for those who tothe end of their lives refuse to
believe and be converted, whereboth soul and body can be lost.
Jesus solemnly proclaims that hewill send his angels, and they
will gather all evildoers, andthrow them into the furnace of

(01:14:24):
fire, and that he will pronouncethe condemnation, Depart from
me, you cursed, into the eternalfire.
The teaching of the Churchaffirms the existence of hell
and its eternity.
Immediately after death, thesouls of those who die in a
state of mortal sin descend intohell, where they suffer the
punishments of hell, eternalfire.

(01:14:45):
The chief punishment of hell iseternal separation from God, in
whom alone man can possess thelife and happiness for which he
was created and for which helongs.
The affirmations of sacredscripture and the teachings of
the Church on the subject ofhell are a call to the
responsibility incumbent uponman to make use of his freedom

(01:15:08):
in view of his eternal destiny.
They are at the same time anurgent call to conversion.
Enter by the narrow gate, forthe gate is wide and the way is
easy, that leads to destruction,and those who enter by it are
many.
For the gate is narrow and theway is hard, that leads to life,
and those who find it are few.

(01:15:30):
Since we know neither the daynor the hour, we should follow
the advice of the Lord and watchconstantly, so that when the
single course of our earthlylife is completed, we may enter
we may merit to enter with himinto the marriage feast, and be
numbered among the blessed, notand not like the wicked and
slothful servants he ordered todepart into the eternal fire,

(01:15:51):
into the outer darkness for menwill weep and gnash their teeth.
God predestines no one to go tohell.
For this a willful turning awayfrom God, a mortal sin is
necessary, and persistence in ituntil the end.
In the Eucharistic liturgy andin the daily prayers of her
faithful, the church imploresthe mercy of God, who does not

(01:16:15):
want any to perish, but all tocome to repentance.
Father, accept this offeringfrom your holy family, grant us
your peace in this life, save usfrom final damnation, and count
us among those you have chosen.

SPEAKER_01 (01:16:30):
That sounds right from the Eucharistic prayer,
isn't it?
The first, the most ancient ofthe four Eucharistic prayers
that we pray.
It goes back to uh thirdcentury.
Uh St.
Apollotus wrote it, I think.
It's beautiful.

SPEAKER_04 (01:16:45):
Yeah, I think it's um it's really interesting and
just important to notice thatit's a it's a percentage a
persistence in the mortal sin.
It's not just a it's not justcommitting a mortal sin and then
dying.
It's it's like you actually areare persisting in that mortal
sin.
Yeah.
Saying, no, I want to continuedoing this.

SPEAKER_01 (01:17:04):
Yeah, yeah.
And in moral theology, um, theHoly Father Jacob John Paul II
came up with an insight calledUm The Splendor of Truth, coming
out to try and clarify somethings about moral theology.
And one of the popular theoriesthat's risen up in the last
century or so is this idea of umfundamental option, where you
have a fundamental option of adisposition either toward heaven

(01:17:27):
or hell, and that's whatmatters.
Particular acts don't matter.
Um, and that's in some circlesthat was leading to the fact,
you know, of throwing out theconcept of mortal sin.
It's like, I can't sin.
One act could not lead me tohell.
Okay.
Even if it's of a grave matter.
Um, but this thing, this my Ican do this bad act, but my

(01:17:49):
fundamental disposition istoward God.
And the church is it it treadsthis fine line, it's saying
there is something called mortalsin that can push you, it can
fundamentally change yourdisposition.
That's what the church wouldsay.
It's yeah, fundamental option,there's truth to it, this
persistence thing that wasmentioned here.
But um individual acts canchange that disposition.

(01:18:10):
And that's why we haveconfession.
It's because when when we fallout of grace, our disposition
has changed, so we've lost thelife of grace.
Um but but yeah, it's it's not ait's not this thing.
It's it's at the end whatmatters is our is uh what how
did it say it here?
Persistence in sin to the end.
So there's lots of room for themercy of God.

(01:18:32):
You know, we have to implorethat.
We hear a lot of wisdom there.
The church implores the mercy ofGod, who does not want any to
perish, but all to come torepentance.
There's a if you're ever lookingfor an examination of
conscience, there's a great one.
Like, take a look, put putbefore the eyes of your mind all
the people that have pissed youoff, your enemies, the people

(01:18:53):
that are just hard to deal with.
And what's your attitude towardthem?
Are you praying for them?
Are you imploring God's mercyfor them?
Or are you wanting God to stickit to them?
And I think in Hollywood itthere's some people that, you
know, are hard to live with.
Um I think that that that needsto be one of our goals uh as
apostles in Hollywood is to prayfor those who have nobody to

(01:19:17):
pray for them and to reallydesire this for them, you know.

SPEAKER_04 (01:19:20):
I have to say, when I moved here, I that was one of
the most shocking things wasgoing to mass and not hearing in
any of the ten the intentions ofthe mass for people in
Hollywood.
Like they live in Los Angeles,that like this the the city of
affecting the entire world, andthese churches are not even in
their intentions praying forHollywood and people working

(01:19:41):
here.
It's it's it's I I just found itso shocking.

SPEAKER_01 (01:19:44):
I without being too presumptuous, I think part of
the problem is that in certainasp elements of the church, we
have come to worship the samethings that Hollywood does, so
we don't really see the problemin what they're pursuing.
It's like, no, there's a holyGod that deserves our worship.
Um, don't forget that.
This is not the end.
We've got to drop our idolshere.

SPEAKER_05 (01:20:08):
But I think there's also a presumption that
Hollywood's not salvageable.

SPEAKER_01 (01:20:12):
Right, that it's exactly well, that's a very
Calvinist view.
It's like, it's it's it's beyondrepair.

SPEAKER_05 (01:20:17):
Let's not even taint ourselves by mentioning.

SPEAKER_01 (01:20:18):
Exactly.
Yeah, there's that too.

SPEAKER_02 (01:20:20):
Well, I was in um Mechigori, you know, when I went
there and um and I was first daywe were sitting eating breakfast
and everyone was kind of sayingtheir hellos and where they were
from, and and I said, Yeah, Ilive in Los Angeles, and it's
just place just looked quiet.
They looked at me, they're like,that place is like southern
Gomorrah.
I mean, these people, I thoughtI was gonna get like killed.

(01:20:44):
And I'm like, what do you mean?
And I'm like, they're like, thatplace needs to like go down the
ocean in an earthquake, and theywere all like, yep.
And I was just like, I was justlike spooky, isn't it?
I was like, oh my gosh, and youknow, and I was so scared
because I wasn't Catholic at thetime.
And I went there and and I wasjust like, what did I do?
You know, but it was the graceof God in that I you know had my

(01:21:05):
conversion there.
But it I was really my firstintroduction to Catholic
Catholicism was a group ofpeople who were like looking at
me and and saying that we allneed to be killed.
It was just crazy.
And you know, this is Vegikori.

SPEAKER_05 (01:21:22):
It was just like Well, they say the best thing
about Catholicism is Catholics.
The worst thing aboutCatholicism is Catholics.

SPEAKER_02 (01:21:30):
The Lord said there's only one thing she fears
in this world, and that is badCatholics.
You know?

SPEAKER_06 (01:21:36):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:21:37):
Yeah.
I think heaven must be theremust be at the entrance to
heaven, I imagine, is these likestacks of applications to be
arbiters of God's justice.
It's like rejected.
A lot of people are applying.
I know exactly who should go tohell.
Like, whoa, all right.
Hope that works out for you.

SPEAKER_05 (01:21:54):
But I think that's what's almost the challenge of
Hollywood, and I'm an outsider.
Um, but the opportun the beautyof it is that within Hollywood
lies such grace.
Yeah.
Because of, you know, this is acommunity that is brought to its
knees regularly.
I mean, just the nature of yourbusiness, yeah, the exposition

(01:22:15):
of your gifts, your talents,your arts is such a nakedness.
Yes.
And so you are unfortunatelyvery much abused as well.
Yeah, you're very vulnerable.
Therein lies the grace of greatgrace, yeah.
Great grace.

SPEAKER_01 (01:22:30):
And and and I think what people also overlook, you
know, all of the I don't thinkyou there's very few artists I
think say are are not strivingto do something good and
beautiful for the world.
And it's like, how can you notwant to encourage that?
You know?
People complain about theselfishness or narcissism or
whatever, but I think we've lostthe sense of being courageous

(01:22:52):
enough to want to change theworld, yeah, to be personal
heroes.

SPEAKER_04 (01:22:55):
Right, exactly.

SPEAKER_07 (01:22:57):
I've been kind of disturbed working on some behind
the scenes stuff.
Just how many of the writers umof movies coming out right now
are like message for theaudience?
Because the interviewer willusually ask, you know, so what
do you want audiences to leavewith?
Yeah, I I that's not my place.

SPEAKER_03 (01:23:15):
The Colin Brothers though had said that about
control.

SPEAKER_01 (01:23:20):
See, that just portrays it.
It's it's a sad because you justwonder what's behind that, what
what kind of human experience isbehind that.
And to what they've suffered,maybe, you know.

SPEAKER_05 (01:23:31):
Well, the fact that they've dumbed down, again, as
an outsider their acceptancespeech of the Oscar saying,
well, it's the same thing aswhat we were doing when we were
little kids, you know, in theyou know, in the play box.
It's like, no, it isn't.
You have a whole years ofexperience that have led you to
this.
That that you you you know, youcannot equate.

(01:23:52):
I mean, at its Genesis, therewas this experience as a child
of having cameras and going tothe airport with his briefcase,
okay, fine.
But you cannot negate, you know,30 years of experience, of human
experience, that has led you tothis.
Yeah.
I mean, what does it say to therest of us watching that then
fine, then I'll get an apple andgo out there and just pull some,
you know, pop something out withmy kid.

(01:24:12):
Right.
I mean, I don't think so.

SPEAKER_02 (01:24:14):
Right.
There there is um a Catholicfilmmaker that, and you'll be
surprised when I mention theperson's name, but I was
watching Larry King.
And this cat this filmmaker wason Larry King, and he asked him,
Well, what inspires you to makeyour films like this?
And he goes, My Catholic faith.
I'm a former seminary and I goto Mass every Sunday.

(01:24:35):
This filmmaker is Michael Moore.

SPEAKER_03 (01:24:37):
You're kidding me.

SPEAKER_02 (01:24:38):
And this was two weeks ago, and I was videotaping
it, and I had it, and I justremember thinking, you know
what?
Like, this is amazing because somany of the people that that are
fans of his work who follow himare the secular, the agnostic.
But right there, I mean, it waslike a Trojan horse.
Literally, I mean, I'm sure thepeople who are watching his show

(01:24:58):
who really followed MichaelMoore, who were like fans, at
that moment were probably likegoing, Oh my gosh.
Like they were shaken.
I mean, I really got, you know,I mean, I would just imagine
that.
Yeah.
And I was like, that's amazing.
And this guy's, I mean, thatthat's what he said, period.
The reason I make the films thatI do is because of my faith, of

(01:25:19):
my Catholic faith.
As a former seminarian, this isthis is what I have to do.

SPEAKER_00 (01:25:23):
It's really interesting.

SPEAKER_01 (01:25:24):
Yeah, he's yeah, he has a mi a certain kind of
missionary zeal for his work.

SPEAKER_02 (01:25:29):
Yeah, and it was just amazing.
I'll show it to you.
I mean, if I didn't know, I'd beinterested in it.
It was amazing.
And there was no he didn't waterit down.
That was it.
That was it.
It wasn't like any excuses, itwas just period.
Yeah.
You know, and it was just like,this is amazing.
But it's that's the beauty andthe complexity of how the Lord
reveals himself.
Exactly.

SPEAKER_05 (01:25:48):
Okay.
Well, alrighty then.

SPEAKER_00 (01:25:53):
That's true.

SPEAKER_05 (01:25:54):
But that is beautiful.
There's a quotation I'll look atmy last comment.
Martha Graham said, aninterviewer asked her, What did
your dance performance, what didthat mean?
You know, what what were youtrying to say?
And she said, if I could explainit, I wouldn't have have to
dance it.

SPEAKER_01 (01:26:11):
That's great.
That's interesting.

SPEAKER_05 (01:26:15):
That gave me such insight to the artists.

SPEAKER_06 (01:26:18):
Yes.

SPEAKER_05 (01:26:18):
Because they can't necessarily, I mean, how they
explain it is through film, it'sthrough painting, it's through,
you know, art dance, but that'show they're experiencing how
they're presenting the gift oryou know, the grace of God.

SPEAKER_01 (01:26:32):
Yeah.
I'm gonna try and find one goodparagraph here about the last
judgment to look at.
How about 10?
I'll read 1040.
It's just one part element ofthis, but uh, the last judgment
will come when Christ returns inglory.
Only the Father knows the dayand the hour.

(01:26:54):
Only He determines the moment ofits coming.
Then, through His Son JesusChrist, he will pronounce the
final word on all history.
We shall know the ultimatemeaning of the whole work of
creation and of the entireeconomy of salvation, and
understand the marvelous ways bywhich his providence led
everything toward its final end.

(01:27:15):
The last judgment will revealthat God's justice triumphs over
all injustices committed by hiscreatures, and that God's love
is stronger than death.
We'll know the ultimate meaningof the whole work of creation.
Yeah, that's um it's better thancollege education, I think.

(01:27:36):
It's amazing.
Okay, so I I want to just wrapup with a couple of practical
stuff if you want to just writethese questions down and you can
meditate on them on your owntime today or whenever you have
time.
I think it's kind of a goodannual kind of evaluation of
make during holy week.
But it's a reflection on thelast things, and I wish I had

(01:27:58):
the book.
Um I've kind of based this on umPeter Kraft.
He's written a book calledFundamentals of the Faith, and
he has a chapter on each one ofthese last four things.
And I think he might even haveanother book on this title, but
Fundamentals of the Faith byPeter Kraft is kind of the
inspiration for these questions.
Uh the first question is aboutdeath.

(01:28:22):
The question is, what death am Ifacing?
Whether little or large?
And how can I meet it withChrist?
What death am I facing?
Little or large?
And how can I meet it withChrist?
That might be fun to revisitthat question in a year and say,

(01:28:43):
you know, has there been anyresurrection in this area or
not?
So has everybody got that one?
What death am I facing?
How can I meet it with Christ?
The second question has to dowith judgment.
An experience of judgment is theexperience of being laid bare.

(01:29:06):
Everything is revealed.
Uh so the question is, what mostneeds to be laid bare in me?
Or seen through the eyes ofjustice?
That's what justice does.
It sees everything.
What most needs to be laid barein me?
Or seen through the eyes ofjustice.

(01:29:29):
Or that is seen through the eyesof justice.
That's really what we mean byeverything laid bare.
It's not it's not a derogatorything, it's simply seeing
everything as it truly is.
Um that's going to be theexperience of the end, is we'll
see all of our deeds and all oftheir import.
Um and then and really askingthat question for the uh for the

(01:29:53):
sake of living more justly now.
And also So that Christ cantouch and heal it.
Okay, so the big question iswhat most needs to be laid bare
in me for the sake of livingmore justly now, and so that
Christ can touch and heal it.

(01:30:18):
Christ is the divine physician,but unless we show him our
wounds, it's not that he doesn'tknow the wounds are there, but
he needs us to to relax enoughso that he can actually tend to
them.
Okay, the third one has to dowith heaven.

(01:30:39):
Um the question is, what are myfalse heavens?
Or what is my counterfeitparadise?
Maybe I have several.
Maybe it's the weekend, maybeit's my job, maybe it's um our
relationship.
What are those things that arenot paradise that I am happy to
stop along the way because Ifound this counterfeit?

(01:31:02):
So, what are my false heavens?
What keeps me from rememberingthat I this is not a place of
rest?
I mean, the Sabbath is, butother than that, we're s we're
on pilgrimage.
Um what will I do to keep asense of pilgrimage alive?
What will I do to keep a senseof pilgrimage alive?

(01:31:30):
What will I do to keep my heartalive to the true goal of my
existence?
I'll repeat that one.
What are my false heavens?
What will I do to keep a senseof pilgrimage alive?
What will I do to keep my heartalive to the true goal of my

(01:31:51):
existence?
So we're moving from kind of anexamination to a resolution.
What are we gonna do about this?
And then lastly, hell.

(01:32:16):
What are the areas of drift orcomplacency in my life?
What are the areas of drift orcomplacency in my life?
Because I think for those of uswho have decided to become, to
follow Christ, to be baptizedand so forth, um we are we have
sort of set out on pilgrimage.

(01:32:37):
It isn't a question of whetherI'm going to, whether I have
heaven as a goal for me, butwhat's going to keep me from
that is if I drift, if I getlax, if I get complacent.
So what are the areas of driftor complacency in my life?
Where am I kind of drifting?
And what am I gonna do aboutthat?

(01:33:10):
Does anybody need any of thoserepeated or get them all?

unknown (01:33:14):
Okay.

SPEAKER_01 (01:33:14):
So yeah, just give yourself a little time sometime
this weekend maybe to askyourself those questions.
I I it's fun for me because Idid it for the first time last
year on the retreat and just goback over and say, oh, no, I
need to revisit this one, butthis one, you know, there really
has been some some grace.
So it's kind of a neat way toexamine your your life each each
triple one.

(01:33:35):
All right, let's wrap it.
This is good.

SPEAKER_05 (01:33:39):
Really wonderful.
I you know, if I may onjudgment, yeah.
Something that's really helpedme.
Uh priests said that the Norbertteens there in Orange County at
St.
Michael's, if you ever haveopportunity to go to Mass there,
they're really lovely.
I might go tonight, actually.
Yeah, very lovely.
Yeah.
Um and one of the priests theresaid, you know, it's funny
because in life we want todispense justice.

(01:34:01):
You know, we want we want what'sfair.
Yeah.
But in our shortcomings, we wantto receive mercy.
So because I know why I did it,and can you sweat me some mercy?
But what I want to dispense, soin terms of judgment, I I love
your you know your comparison ofyou know being laid bare.

SPEAKER_06 (01:34:21):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (01:34:22):
But you know, how can Christ come and touch
healing?
So I I'd like, you know, I wantwhat's fair, but or I want to
give you what's fair when I'mbeing, you know, forgiving,
because it's fair.
But when Christ comes to me, Iwant I want full-blown mercy.
So I don't know if that helpsyou, but that's it's really
difficult.

SPEAKER_01 (01:34:40):
That's amazing.
You know, and and I think uhunfortunately we've become too
familiar with the prayer Christtaught us.
Yeah, our Father.
It's just that's that insight isforgive us our trespasses as we
forgive those who trespassagainst us.
I mean, we should want to to todispense the same mercy we've
received.
Um and it's a parable too aboutthe servant who was forgiven and

(01:35:02):
then he went off and startedcharging everybody else what
they owed him and so whoa.
And then he called them back andsaid, wait, wait, wait a minute.
Yeah.

unknown (01:35:10):
Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 (01:35:10):
Um and just finally, uh for for your reading, if you
want further meditation on theselast things, I recommend highly
um, I always recommend this.
It's my favorite essay ever, byC.
S.
Lewis, um The Weight of Glory.
The Weight of Glory.
And I quoted from that earlierthe thing about we're far too
easily pleased.
We're fine with making mud piesbecause we have no idea what's

(01:35:33):
being offered us.
A holiday at the sea.

SPEAKER_00 (01:35:37):
Is that from a larger work?

SPEAKER_01 (01:35:39):
What's that?

SPEAKER_00 (01:35:40):
Is that from a larger work?

SPEAKER_01 (01:35:41):
It is.
Oh well, you can buy it as acollection of essays.
It's called The Weight of Gloryand Other Essays.
Oh, okay.
But I think you can buy it in asits own, too.

SPEAKER_05 (01:35:52):
I haven't heard that tile.

SPEAKER_01 (01:35:55):
Yeah.
It's in a lot of hiscollections, but I love it.
It's like a 10-page essay.
And it's free on my website.
Actually, you don't have to buyit, it's it's out of print on
its own.
So I've got it published on mywebsite.
I'll just send you a link to it.
I name my blog after it becauseI just I keep unpacking it.
It's so amazing.
Thanks for joining us, and wehope you'll join us again next
week.
Until then, take care and Godbless.

(01:36:24):
The music in the introductionand the very close of this
podcast is provided by DennisCromit.
Learn more about his music overat DennisCromet.com or in the
show notes.
Until next time, be well and Godbless.

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