On the Tiny Marketing Podcast, host Sarah Noel Block interviews Sara Nay, CEO of Duct Tape Marketing, about making the first few hires as a solo consultant. Nay explains that effective hiring starts before the job post by clarifying mission, vision, and values, then running a culture/fit interview before assessing skills. She recommends choosing a first hire by doing a one-week time audit to identify repetitive, draining tasks to delegate—often starting with an executive assistant or account manager to keep the consultant in a strategic role. Nay advocates hiring earlier than feels comfortable by starting part-time (around 10 hours/week) and scaling up. For onboarding, she emphasizes slow ramp-up, training and shadowing on one client at a time, daily check-ins with small task lists, using Loom videos plus checklists, time tracking from day one (e.g., Harvest), and documenting only critical recurring processes by mapping end-to-end client “flows.”
00:00 Welcome to Tiny Marketing
00:49 Meet Sarah Nay
02:11 Hiring That Actually Works
02:59 Values First Job Posts
05:24 Choosing Your First Hire
07:43 Start Part Time and Scale
11:37 Onboarding Without Overwhelm
15:09 Looms Checklists and Docs
17:33 Time Tracking and Profitability
22:19 Pricing and Raising Rates
25:15 Documenting Core Processes
28:13 Where to Find Sarah
28:36 Booked Out Blueprint Outro
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker (00:02):
Welcome to the Tiny Marketing Podcast.
I'm Sarah Noal Block, and thisshow is made for solo
consultants who wanna get bookedout without burning out.
If you've ever thought, I justwant this to feel easier, you're
not alone.
Around here, we focus onsimple, sustainable growth that
actually fits into your life togrowth, feels doable instead of
overwhelming.
Sarah Noel Block (00:22):
and So today we are talking about those first
couple of hires that you havewhen you're a solo consultant
and you're feeling that pain,the growing pains, it's really,
really hard.
So we're gonna dig into how tohire great people, how to
onboard them, and the systemsand processes you need in order
(00:43):
to make it all work.
Sarah, thank you for joiningme.
Can you introduce yourself tothe audience?
Sara Nay (00:49):
Of course.
So my name is Sarah Nay.
I am the CEO at a companycalled Duct Tape Marketing, and
I've been with the company for16 years now.
I started as an intern, hadvarious roles throughout the
company, and about a year agostepped into the CEO seat, over
those years.
I've helped a lot of peoplewith hiring, so we've obviously
hired on our team and I've ledthat initiative.
(01:11):
But also we train and certifymarketing consultants,
fractional CMOs and smallagencies, and as part of that
certification, we're teachingour system and frameworks, but
I'm also helping people go fromsolopreneurs to their first hire
to growing their team.
So I have a lot of experiencetalking about hiring and
onboarding.
Sarah Noel Block (01:30):
I didn't tell you this on our onboarding call,
but I remember when I was a oneperson marketing department,
like 20 years ago, maybe like15, 20 years ago, duct Tape
Marketing blog.
I read it constantly.
Sara Nay (01:46):
Amazing.
I love to hear it.
Yeah, we've been around for 30years as a company, and so I
hear those stories all the time.
We've had our podcast for 20years now, so
Sarah Noel Block (01:54):
Yeah.
Sara Nay (01:55):
a while.
Sarah Noel Block (01:56):
Yeah, it's crazy.
You were like the only sourcefor information when you were
marketing with a small team andlimited resources.
So thank you for that.
Sara Nay (02:07):
Of course.
Yeah.
I'm glad to hear that we helpedyou 20 years ago.
That's That's great.
Sarah Noel Block (02:11):
Okay, so let's get into.
The hiring piece first.
So let's picture, actually oneof my clients who's going
through this right now, sheworks in finance, she's been
hiring people, but it's justnever working out.
They are If they don't have theright skillset, or just the
(02:31):
onboarding feels messy, likeit's taking way too long to get
them ready to take overresponsibilities.
So
Sara Nay (02:38):
Yeah, and I'll say, I think.
That person's not alone.
I think everyone, when theystart thinking about hiring for
the first time, there's just alot to learn.
There's a lot to figure out.
A lot of mistakes are oftenmade, but hopefully this
conversation, yes, we all have.
I have too.
but hopefully this conversationwill help people make.
Less mistakes moving forward.
That's the goal ultimately.
but that person's not alone.
(02:59):
So I think the thing that'stricky with hiring is there's a
lot of stuff that needs to go inbefore you're ready to hire
that people often skip or don'tthink about.
And so, for example, wheneverwe've hired over the years, like
we've, on our job descriptions,we always start with.
Here's our mission, here's ourvision, here's our values.
(03:20):
And so that's the first part ofour job posts before we'll then
say, okay, and here's the rolethat we're hiring for and here's
the requirements.
And so it's really important tounderstand those things deeply
so you can hire people that arealigned with your values and
what you're actually trying toaccomplish as a business.
And so for us, we're trying tomake.
(03:40):
A massive impact in the smallbusiness space like that has
always been what we focus on.
And so when I'm hiring, I wannahire people that first and
foremost are excited about that.
Like they want to work withsmall businesses, they want to
make a difference.
They want to try as hard aspossible to get them results.
And so I think when you'rethinking about hiring, you need
to.
Step back before you say, whatare the roles that, that I maybe
(04:03):
need?
And take a step back and say,you know, what's really
important to me and where do Ineed people to be aligned on?
so getting into like the valuespiece, for example, like
marketing is changing andevolving So fast, right now.
And so whenever I'm hiringanyone on our team, regardless
of their position, one of theirvalues needs to be that they're
growth minded.
They're eager to learn.
(04:24):
They they read books outside ofwork that are business focused.
You know, I need those types ofpeople 'cause it's changing so
fast.
but.
I've taken the time to identifythose things that then it makes
it easier to hire people thatare gonna be aligned and that
are gonna stay with us longerbecause they're excited about
what we're trying to do.
so that's really important.
(04:45):
But then also.
And that's all related, likethe job description and posting
and getting clarity.
But then our first interview isalways a fit interview from a
cultural standpoint.
And so the whole firstinterview is focused on does the
mission resonate with themactually?
Like what?
How are they doing on these?
Values, are they aligned?
Like are they gonna fitculturally as our team?
(05:07):
And so that's always like thefirst interview.
And then the second interviewwill actually get into their
skill sets and experience.
And so I think focusing onthose things is really important
before you can even get to theinterview process with a
candidate.
And that's what often peoplekind of skip and overlook.
Sarah Noel Block (05:22):
Yeah.
Yeah, that makes sense.
So actually, can we take onestep back from the job posting
and look at who should a firsthire be?
Sara Nay (05:35):
Yeah, so there's.
There's a number of exerciseson delegation, that I think are
relevant.
But for one, like if you're asolopreneur, oftentimes, and if
you're a consultant, forexample, like I work with a lot
of marketing consultants and sooftentimes I say, okay, what are
you doing consistently?
That takes up a lot of timethat you don't enjoy doing
(05:56):
'cause you bring someone in tohelp you with that stuff.
And so doing a time audit.
You know, this sounds reallypainful, but spending about a
week just jotting down likeevery 15 minutes what you
actually are doing, because Iguarantee it'll be different
than if you just like sat downand wrote 'em out.
And so doing a time audit for aweek, writing down everything
you're doing every 15 minuteincrements, and then at the end
(06:18):
of the week doing an audit ofthose things are, you know, what
are your highest payoffactivities?
What are things that drain you?
What are things that you lovedoing?
what are things that actuallydrive value to your business?
And then holding onto those.
Value things that you lovedoing, that you know, that, add
value to your business.
And then looking at, okay,what's on this list?
That's like time consuming,that's repetitive, that does not
(06:40):
bring me joy.
And then making a list of thosethings will then help you more
clearly to find, okay, whatroles do you need to bring in to
be able to take some of thatstuff off of your plate?
But oftentimes, I will say inthe solopreneur role, if you're
serving clients as a consultant,usually thinking about like an
account manager or executiveassistant type of role makes the
(07:03):
most sense in the beginning.
because a lot of times, youknow, as a consultant you need
to stay.
Strategic.
You need to stay high level,you need to stay advisor, and
not necessarily implementer onall of the things.
And so if you can bring someonein that can schedule your
meetings and that can keepcontent moving forward and that
could communicate with yourclients, and keep track of just
(07:25):
like all the people that are inyour world, it allows you to
stay higher level and providemore value to your clients.
Sarah Noel Block (07:31):
Yeah, and then you have the actual time to
grow your business and do yourlike, show up in your marketing,
show up for sales and biz dev,which you wouldn't have if
you're stuck in fulfillment allthe time.
Sara Nay (07:43):
Yeah, and that is one of the challenges that I see
with solopreneurs as they'rejust getting started, is they
don't wanna hire because theydon't have a ton of clients yet.
And so they're like, I can justdo it.
But then all of a sudden theyhave.
Two, three clients and then allof a sudden their client's
businesses are more importantthan theirs.
And so their business takes asecond seat completely, and then
(08:05):
they stall in growth and theycome up for air and they wonder
why.
And so I always encourageentrepreneurs, like, even if
you're just getting started.
Hire sooner than you feel likeyou're, you're maybe thinking
about it or ready from afinancial standpoint, but you
can always hire by starting withsomeone very part-time,
starting slowly, starting themhourly, and then they can grow
(08:28):
into a, a larger position overtime.
And so that's the route thatwe've always taken at Duct Tape
Marketing.
We we do have full-timeemployees, but we also work with
a lot of contractors as well.
And whenever I'm bringing onsomeone new, regardless if
they're gonna turn into afull-time employee or not, I
start them at like 10 ish hoursa week in the beginning.
(08:49):
And I'm paying them hourlybecause I wanna determine does
it make sense for them?
Are they gonna be a good fit?
Like do, am I ready tointroduce them to more of our
clients because.
You know, you have to startslower.
But then having theconversation with them from the
very first interview is like,we're gonna start at like 10
hours a week.
We're gonna get to know eachother, we're gonna build trust.
we could, there's opportunityto scale this up to even
(09:10):
full-time, if that's ofinterest.
So, you know, asking theperson, are you good with
starting slower?
Do you have ability?
If it, if it goes well, toreally ramp up further.
And I think if you think abouthiring that way, it seems a lot
less intimidating because you'renot committing to a full-time
person from the very beginning.
You're starting small.
You're building relationshipand then you can scale them up
(09:31):
from there.
Sarah Noel Block (09:32):
Yeah, I think that that's the only mistake I
did not make at the beginning ofmy business was when I first
got my very first client.
I was still working corporate,but I hired a VA immediately.
And I just took a percentage ofwhat I was making from that one
client and set that as thebudget for the because I knew I
(09:55):
could afford that.
It was, it was that.
And, because I was able toonboard her, slowly, like she
didn't have like a ton of stuffright away.
Our relationship and she wasable to take on so much.
She was able to take on so muchmore responsibility because she
could ease into it.
(10:16):
Whereas I'll talk about theshitty thing that I did.
now she got a full-time job.
I had to figure some stuff out,but at this point I had 13
clients and it was a full-timejob.
I was no longer corporate, andI was in a mad rush to hire
people.
And at that point I did not doit slowly.
(10:36):
took onboarding was so roughand I work with any of those
same freelancers today becauseit was just like I was in such
a, a difficult place that Iwasn't able to onboard them
appropriately or even like vetthem appropriately.
Sara Nay (10:54):
Yeah, and it's such a better experience, the one with
the VA that you shared, whereyou started slowly and you built
over time for you and yourclients and that freelancer as
well.
'cause I've also made the samemistake years ago.
You know, I brought someone onas an account manager.
I introduced 'em to like sixclients right off the bat.
They were completelyoverwhelmed.
(11:14):
There was so much to learn sofast that they ended up not
working out, and so we had tolet them go, and so.
We had to let them go was a,was a negative in that story,
but also like I had to go backto all the clients and be like,
okay, now you have a new accountmanager.
Hopefully this person lastslonger than two months.
so it's, it's really importantto just start slower, in the
(11:36):
beginning.
And so, you know, I know wewere gonna talk about onboarding
as well.
So now when I bring on new teammembers.
we always start with like,first you're going to go through
training, and then when you'reready, you're gonna start
shadowing on one client, andthen you're gonna start getting
involved with that one client.
And you're gonna learn all ofour systems and processes and
ways of doing things and all ofour tools and all of that with
(11:59):
that one client.
And then once you prove that,you know, things are working out
and, and we can trust you,we'll give you a second client.
You'll get comfortable withthat second client, we'll give
you a third client.
You'll get comfortable thereuntil you get to the point where
you're at capacity.
And so I'm a big believer in,you know, spending as much time
as possible in your onboardingand training to then set them up
(12:20):
for long-term success.
And another thing that we dotoo, that I've learned over the
years is, you know, initiallywhen we were onboarding, we
would say, okay, we'll have likeyour onboarding meeting, give
you a bunch of stuff, and thenwe'll meet with you, you know,
several days later.
And it just left people feelingreally overwhelmed.
And so now every single time weonboard someone, regardless of
their position, we have dailymeetings in the beginning, where
(12:44):
it's like, okay, here's yourproject management board that we
set up.
'cause we always use monday.comis what we use with your tasks
for day one.
Here's exactly what you need todo for day one.
Go do it.
Ping me on slack if you needme.
We'll meet again tomorrowmorning and then the next day we
say, okay, here's your tasksfor day two.
Go do these exact things.
Because if you give people toomuch information in the
(13:04):
beginning, they'll just getstuck.
So if you can meet with themdaily and break it down to like,
here's your five things to doversus 25 for the week, it's
gonna make 'em a lot lessoverwhelmed.
And it's also gonna make yourlife easier because I felt like.
In the beginning when I wasgiving people too much, then
they were just constantlyslacking me and asking me
questions, and so it wasactually taking more time than
(13:25):
getting on the call with themfor, you know, 15, 20 minutes a
day to make sure they had whatthey needed, to see how they did
on their previous tasks and toset them up for success.
Sarah Noel Block (13:34):
That is really smart and I, I just wanna point
out that.
It works a lot better that waywhen you're onboarding clients
too, like I, I have found thatwhen I give them too much
information upfront, it'soverwhelming.
But if I give them micro tasksthat they're working through and
(13:55):
just showing them just whatthey need to see at that moment
in time, it's so much easier forthem and they're like, okay.
Task complete task.
Complete task complete, andthen I can move on to the next
thing.
So it works
Sara Nay (14:08):
I think just in communication in general, like
if you can make things as simpleand straightforward as possible
and not feel like this massivething to start, then people will
actually start.
And so another example on thatis like we've rolled out
documenting our systems andprocesses within our business.
Uh, we've done it over theyears, but we rolled out a new
system for doing it essentially.
(14:29):
And so the.
Girl on my team that mapped itout for everyone and
communicated put all of thiswork into how everyone needed to
get started.
And it just felt like when shecommunicated with everyone that
it was this big hurdle forpeople to get started.
And so no one actually gotstarted.
But then when we were able totake a look at and be like,
where can we simplify this tomake it like, Hey, I just need
(14:49):
to do this one thing and it'sonly gonna take me a few
minutes, and then it will feel alot easier after I do that.
And so we simplified how wecommunicated and now people are
making a lot more progress.
And so you just need to, youknow, make things as
straightforward as possible andnot make it feel like I have to
figure out this whole thing, orpeople just won't take the time
to get started.
Sarah Noel Block (15:09):
Yeah, and I wanna point out an episode I had
a couple weeks ago with PamelaKing depending on when people
are listening to this, but shetalked about how you should
start creating your looms oryour walkthrough videos as
you're doing your tasks, whetheryou hired someone or not.
So you have those available foryour upcoming hires whenever
(15:33):
you happen to hire them.
And then you said you usedMonday, so you could just attach
the link to the Loom right inthat Monday task.
Like, this is how you do it.
Sara Nay (15:42):
Yeah, absolutely.
And videos are incredible fortraining team and clients and
communication, but we actuallywould take it one step further
'cause I, I think when peopleare being trained on processes,
watching a video once isabsolutely wonderful.
But then after they watch thevideo and they understand the
process, then they just need achecklist to follow.
And so, transcribe the video,put it into Create a checklist
(16:06):
and then create a document thathas the process, name the video
embedded, and then the actionitems below, because then the
second, third, fourth time theygo back to do that process, they
can just check the boxes tomake sure that they hit all the
steps versus having to likere-watch the video and make sure
they didn't forget something.
Sarah Noel Block (16:23):
Yeah, that makes complete sense.
So.
Like going back to the notoverwhelming people, would you
create a single doc with likedifferent tabs depending on the
task, or would you have aseparate doc for each task?
Sara Nay (16:38):
Separate doc for each task?
Ultimately.
Yeah.
Unless it's like, you know, itjust kind of depends on what, so
like, let's give an example.
We're a marketing company, solet's say it's, you know,
creating a blog post for aclient like that would be all
documented on one.
Document, but then if it's likeoptimization from an SEO
standpoint, like that might be aseparate document that are like
(17:00):
related, but like it's twoseparate processes
Sarah Noel Block (17:03):
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
anything else on onboardingbefore we move on to systems and
processes?
Sara Nay (17:10):
No, I mean the biggest thing is just don't overwhelm
people start slower than youwant to, communicate with them
as much as you can to set 'em upfor success.
Sarah Noel Block (18:19):
Yeah, I really do like, like you could, those
morning meetings for that firstweek could just be like 15
minutes but it sets them up tobe able to understand like,
these the things that I need toget done by the end of the day.
Sara Nay (18:32):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Oh, and another one too, Iguess that relates to all this
is time tracking.
So have them track their timefrom the very beginning.
a lot of times people don't.
Love time tracking.
If they're a freelancer,they're used to it.
but getting them to start fromthe very beginning, especially
if you're incorporating it asclient work.
And so you're, you know,figuring out your cost and
profitability within clientwork.
(18:53):
But we have people track theirtime a hundred percent from day
one.
So there's not pushback whenthey're with us for a while, and
then we eventually ask 'em to.
but it gives you really goodinsights as well because you're
able to look at how they'respending their time and where
they're getting stuck.
And so.
There's another story in thisand why this was helpful is we
(19:14):
onboarded a team member recentlyand we use for a lot of work
that we do among other AI tools.
And one of the things I washaving him do was pull a deep
research report in and when youpull a deep research report, it
takes.
10 ish minutes, depending onthe context to generate that
report before it gets somethingback to you.
And so he did that for aclient.
He got the report back, butthen he didn't realize that he
(19:37):
needed to turn off deep researchmode.
So every single time he wasprompting he was waiting 10 ish
minutes for response.
That was a full report.
And so.
I wouldn't have uncovered thatif he wasn't time tracking his
time clearly, because I was ableto meet with him and be like,
why did this take you like twohours when it would've taken me?
(19:58):
10, 15 minutes.
And so we uncovered that heneeded to turn off deep research
mode.
So that was a good learningopportunity for us, that you
would, you know, sometimes Iforget about those things 'cause
it seems obvious 'cause I'm inthose platforms for, you know,
the time.
And so for some it's a littlebit newer to it.
you need to explain some stuffin more detail, obviously But
that was a good learning that ifhe wasn't tracking his time and
(20:19):
putting details as to what hewas doing, I don't know how long
that would've gone on for.
Sarah Noel Block (20:23):
Do you use any specific apps for time
tracking?
Sara Nay (20:26):
Yeah, well, we've used Harvest for a long time.
it's just the one that we'veused.
I don't necessarily I mean,there's better, cheaper options
that are available.
I'm actually exploringswitching over to right now,
because it has more features.
but, you know, I, I don't thinkyou need something.
Over the top.
It just depends on, you know,what all you're trying to do.
but what I like, 'cause again,we serve clients is I'm able to
(20:49):
track in the time trackingtools, you know, our revenue
from the client, and then alsothe hours that are spent from
our team.
And I'm able to see reportsbecause that's, that's a
challenge as well as asolopreneur when you start
bringing in team members.
You'll see your profitabilitygo down.
And so you need to price yourengagements to, justify bringing
(21:11):
on these team members.
And so in our engagements, wehave very specific profitability
goals.
And so then when I am, youknow, every single month I'm
looking at where my team is andanytime we have a new client,
I'm like, okay, here's yourbudgeted hours as the fractional
CMO and as the account manageron this account, if you're going
to go over.
Please let me know and let meknow why you're going over.
(21:32):
And then at the end of everymonth, we look at their hours
and we say, okay, you weregreen, yellow, or red, depending
on where you're at in relationto our profitability goals.
Like, why were you in the redor yellow?
How do we get this client backOn track, do we need to increase
scope, or was there just someweird one-off things that
happened?
And so it's, you know, withinclient accounts, it's not enough
(21:54):
to just track it, it's to setspecific hour goals and it's to
communicate with your team on aregular basis, whether or not
they're on track and how to getthem back on track.
Sarah Noel Block (22:04):
That's really smart.
I, I was time trackingeverything that I did for this
period of time because I wastrying to figure out which one
of my offers was the mostprofitable.
That's Like how much time am Ispending on this thing?
And then when I looked at it,I'm like, I'm spending the most
time on this thing.
They don't even care about.
Sara Nay (22:24):
Yep.
Yeah, yeah, cut that off.
And great insight.
And then you also will find,you know, maybe you're spending
way too much time on somethingthat's still valuable, but
there's ways to then optimizethat time by bringing in AI
tools to help make things moreefficiently.
So if you're not time tracking,it's hard to make those
decisions 'cause you're makingthose decisions based on
(22:46):
feelings.
also time tracking helps youthen price.
Engagements moving forwardbecause you'll say, okay, this
similar client, similar needs,we are hitting our profitability
goals.
It's priced at this, so it justhelps you make better pricing
decisions as well.
Sarah Noel Block (23:01):
Yeah, that's something that I was talking to
someone about on LinkedInyesterday.
Uh, he how do you figure outyour pricing?
And that was exactly it.
I was like, I literally timedit to figure out how much it
needs to be.
And then I was neverquestioning like.
Am overcharging orundercharging?
I'm like, this is the amount ithas to be.
Sara Nay (23:17):
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
And that's a big piece whenpeople are are just getting
started.
We work with a lot of peoplethat have, you know, left
corporate and this is theirfirst time launching their own
business.
And confidence in pricing issometimes a challenge for people
when they're just gettingstarted and so they undercharge.
Then they don't increase theirprices and then they get really
(23:37):
busy again, but not hittingtheir revenue growth goals
they'd hoped for.
And so, you know, I, I'm alwaysa big believer in like, as
you're just getting started,yes, you can charge less than
you want to be at in thebeginning in exchange for like
case studies or testimonials,but increase the prices, every
single engagement till you getto the point where you really
wanna be.
(23:58):
and I think that's importantbecause your confidence will
grow.
The more work you do withclients and the more stories you
have to tell and the moreresults you're getting, but
definitely challenge you to notjust kind of set your pricing
and stick there.
It's an opportunity to continueto grow and evolve and, and
charge more the, with the morevalue you bring over time.
Sarah Noel Block (24:15):
Yeah, that is a great point.
Like you can, and I would,because I'm seeing, like I'm in
this group with a ton ofconsultants and the number one
thing that I see people complainabout is like, this is a legacy
client.
They're at the beginning of mybusiness and they're still
paying.
maybe say upfront like this iscase study pricing and it's only
(24:38):
valid for the first year orwhatever.
And then every, like you said,every client, you can increase
your price just a little bituntil you get to the point where
you want to be.
And usually
Sara Nay (24:50):
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
And, and the point on theretainer clients, we typically,
for the marketing space, again,recommend charging, uh, or
planning out a quarter of a timefor marketing priorities.
And so essentially you'resaying, okay, here's your next
90 days that we're gonna executeon together.
About midway through that,we're gonna start looking at
your next 90 days.
(25:11):
And we're gonna map out those90 days so your marketing can
continue to evolve.
And so when you're doing that,you're then presenting them
essentially a new plan for every90 days at a time and a sprint.
And so I don't believe youshould like every 90 days come
in with like a new price point,but it helps you, have the
conversation of like, this iswhat we're committing to for the
first 90 days.
(25:31):
We'll lay the foundation, we'llstart getting you some results.
Once we do that, we might bringin bigger projects to help
increase your growth.
And so you're setting the stagefrom the very beginning of
like, we're not gonna just dothe same things forever because
I don't think that does anyone agood service.
We are going to help yourmarketing grow and evolve.
And with that, the more successwe get, the our retainer might
(25:53):
increase because we'll bebringing on more opportunity.
Sarah Noel Block (25:56):
And that's great having that conversation
upfront so people aren'tshocked.
'cause people are really afraidto raise their prices and lose
those clients.
But if you are straightforwardwith them from the very
beginning, like, this is a dealbecause of this.
Sara Nay (26:10):
Yes, exactly.
Sarah Noel Block (26:11):
they're not gonna be shocked when the price
goes up.
Sara Nay (26:14):
yeah,
Sarah Noel Block (26:15):
Okay.
So last piece.
Are any systems or processesthat we haven't already talked
on, 'cause we've weaved it intothis conversation that we should
be aware of when we're hiringand onboarding.
Sara Nay (26:29):
Yeah, Years ago, another mistake story.
probably about, yeah, probablyabout 12 years ago now at Duct
Tape Marketing.
we were like, we're gonnadocument every system and
process.
And so I led the charge andessentially was like, okay,
every single person on the teamneeds to document one per week,
and they need to submit it to meby Friday, and then I'll review
it and I'll put it in GoogleDrive, and then no one ever
looked at them again.
Sarah Noel Block (26:50):
Yeah.
Sara Nay (26:52):
yeah, I think a lot of people have probably, so, you
know, more recently we now lookat our systems and processes as
we map out what we call like ouroverall engines or flows.
And so how do we, one of ourmain packages, for example, is
something called Strategy First.
It's a 30 to 45 day packagewhere we start with clients and
(27:12):
we map out a strategy.
So we essentially mapped outwhat are all of the steps in
First that we want every singleclient to experience every
single time.
So it starts with, you know,completed payment and signed
agreement, and then they fillout an intake form and then we
do a discovery call, and thenwe, you know, do these research
elements.
And so we basically mapped outall of the steps and then we
(27:33):
looked at it and we said, okay,out of these steps, which Need
systems and processes documentedbecause a human's gonna do them
and there's multiple steps inthem and we don't want any
mistakes.
And again, we wanna ensure aconsistent experience across the
board.
And then those are the systemsand processes that we
documented.
So it's not about going throughlike, let's document everything
(27:54):
in your business.
It's what are the reoccurringthings that you're doing on a
consistent basis that are reallyimportant to you, your
business, your clients, and it'sdocumenting those.
Sarah Noel Block (28:05):
Yeah, I love that.
'cause I have done the samething, like let's document
everything
Sara Nay (28:11):
Yes.
Sarah Noel Block (28:12):
and then like something dies off.
I'm like, Actually don't likedoing that anymore, but I wasted
all that time documenting it.
Or the process changed sodrastically because maybe
technology changed that it'sworthless six months later.
Um, those big things thatyou're doing, like, for me, like
for example, documenting thatprocess would make a lot more
(28:36):
sense.
'cause I'm doing it with prettymuch every client.
Sara Nay (28:39):
And right now, if it's not documented, it lives in
your head.
So bringing on someone andtraining them is really
challenging.
But if you are starting todocument it now and you get it
all mapped out and like thewhole flow with the individual
steps and systems below it, likenow next time you bring on
someone, like they could shadowyou along and doing it with the
client, but they also can followthrough all the steps in the
(29:00):
process to learn.
And then when they do theirfirst one on their own.
They then can follow thatprocess again to make sure that
they're delivering the sameresults as you hopefully would
for clients as well.
Sarah Noel Block (29:11):
Yeah, that's a good point.
Okay.
Thank you so much foreverything that we've talked
about today.
how can people work with youand find you online?
Sara Nay (29:20):
So Duct Tape Marketing is our company, so and then I'm
very active on LinkedIn aswell.
So again, my name is Sarah Nay,and I would love to connect
with you.
Sarah Noel Block (29:28):
I'm gonna connect with you right after
Sara Nay (29:29):
Let's do it.
Sarah Noel Block (29:31):
Alright, I will talk to you later.
Thanks all.
Speaker (29:36):
If this episode made things go a little more doable,
I'd love to help you take thenext step with the Booked Out
Blueprint.
It's a practical, low pressuresession to clarify your offers,
your marketing, and whatactually moves the needle.
You can book yours through thelink in the show notes.
You don't have to figure it outalone.
Welcome to the Tiny Marketing Podcast.
I'm Sarah Noal Block, and thisshow is made for solo
consultants who wanna get bookedout without burning out.
If you've ever thought, I justwant this to feel easier, you're
not alone.
Around here, we focus onsimple, sustainable growth that
actually fits into your life togrowth, feels doable instead of
overwhelming.
Sarah Noel Block (00:22):
and So today we are talking about those first
couple of hires that you havewhen you're a solo consultant
and you're feeling that pain,the growing pains, it's really,
really hard.
So we're gonna dig into how tohire great people, how to
onboard them, and the systemsand processes you need in order
(00:43):
to make it all work.
Sarah, thank you for joiningme.
Can you introduce yourself tothe audience?
Sara Nay (00:49):
Of course.
So my name is Sarah Nay.
I am the CEO at a companycalled Duct Tape Marketing, and
I've been with the company for16 years now.
I started as an intern, hadvarious roles throughout the
company, and about a year agostepped into the CEO seat, over
those years.
I've helped a lot of peoplewith hiring, so we've obviously
hired on our team and I've ledthat initiative.
(01:11):
But also we train and certifymarketing consultants,
fractional CMOs and smallagencies, and as part of that
certification, we're teachingour system and frameworks, but
I'm also helping people go fromsolopreneurs to their first hire
to growing their team.
So I have a lot of experiencetalking about hiring and
onboarding.
Sarah Noel Block (01:30):
I didn't tell you this on our onboarding call,
but I remember when I was a oneperson marketing department,
like 20 years ago, maybe like15, 20 years ago, duct Tape
Marketing blog.
I read it constantly.
Sara Nay (01:46):
Amazing.
I love to hear it.
Yeah, we've been around for 30years as a company, and so I
hear those stories all the time.
We've had our podcast for 20years now, so
Sarah Noel Block (01:54):
Yeah.
Sara Nay (01:55):
a while.
Sarah Noel Block (01:56):
Yeah, it's crazy.
You were like the only sourcefor information when you were
marketing with a small team andlimited resources.
So thank you for that.
Sara Nay (02:07):
Of course.
Yeah.
I'm glad to hear that we helpedyou 20 years ago.
That's That's great.
Sarah Noel Block (02:11):
Okay, so let's get into.
The hiring piece first.
So let's picture, actually oneof my clients who's going
through this right now, sheworks in finance, she's been
hiring people, but it's justnever working out.
They are If they don't have theright skillset, or just the
(02:31):
onboarding feels messy, likeit's taking way too long to get
them ready to take overresponsibilities.
So
Sara Nay (02:38):
Yeah, and I'll say, I think.
That person's not alone.
I think everyone, when theystart thinking about hiring for
the first time, there's just alot to learn.
There's a lot to figure out.
A lot of mistakes are oftenmade, but hopefully this
conversation, yes, we all have.
I have too.
but hopefully this conversationwill help people make.
Less mistakes moving forward.
That's the goal ultimately.
but that person's not alone.
(02:59):
So I think the thing that'stricky with hiring is there's a
lot of stuff that needs to go inbefore you're ready to hire
that people often skip or don'tthink about.
And so, for example, wheneverwe've hired over the years, like
we've, on our job descriptions,we always start with.
Here's our mission, here's ourvision, here's our values.
(03:20):
And so that's the first part ofour job posts before we'll then
say, okay, and here's the rolethat we're hiring for and here's
the requirements.
And so it's really important tounderstand those things deeply
so you can hire people that arealigned with your values and
what you're actually trying toaccomplish as a business.
And so for us, we're trying tomake.
(03:40):
A massive impact in the smallbusiness space like that has
always been what we focus on.
And so when I'm hiring, I wannahire people that first and
foremost are excited about that.
Like they want to work withsmall businesses, they want to
make a difference.
They want to try as hard aspossible to get them results.
And so I think when you'rethinking about hiring, you need
to.
Step back before you say, whatare the roles that, that I maybe
(04:03):
need?
And take a step back and say,you know, what's really
important to me and where do Ineed people to be aligned on?
so getting into like the valuespiece, for example, like
marketing is changing andevolving So fast, right now.
And so whenever I'm hiringanyone on our team, regardless
of their position, one of theirvalues needs to be that they're
growth minded.
They're eager to learn.
(04:24):
They they read books outside ofwork that are business focused.
You know, I need those types ofpeople 'cause it's changing so
fast.
but.
I've taken the time to identifythose things that then it makes
it easier to hire people thatare gonna be aligned and that
are gonna stay with us longerbecause they're excited about
what we're trying to do.
so that's really important.
(04:45):
But then also.
And that's all related, likethe job description and posting
and getting clarity.
But then our first interview isalways a fit interview from a
cultural standpoint.
And so the whole firstinterview is focused on does the
mission resonate with themactually?
Like what?
How are they doing on these?
Values, are they aligned?
Like are they gonna fitculturally as our team?
(05:07):
And so that's always like thefirst interview.
And then the second interviewwill actually get into their
skill sets and experience.
And so I think focusing onthose things is really important
before you can even get to theinterview process with a
candidate.
And that's what often peoplekind of skip and overlook.
Sarah Noel Block (05:22):
Yeah.
Yeah, that makes sense.
So actually, can we take onestep back from the job posting
and look at who should a firsthire be?
Sara Nay (05:35):
Yeah, so there's.
There's a number of exerciseson delegation, that I think are
relevant.
But for one, like if you're asolopreneur, oftentimes, and if
you're a consultant, forexample, like I work with a lot
of marketing consultants and sooftentimes I say, okay, what are
you doing consistently?
That takes up a lot of timethat you don't enjoy doing
(05:56):
'cause you bring someone in tohelp you with that stuff.
And so doing a time audit.
You know, this sounds reallypainful, but spending about a
week just jotting down likeevery 15 minutes what you
actually are doing, because Iguarantee it'll be different
than if you just like sat downand wrote 'em out.
And so doing a time audit for aweek, writing down everything
you're doing every 15 minuteincrements, and then at the end
(06:18):
of the week doing an audit ofthose things are, you know, what
are your highest payoffactivities?
What are things that drain you?
What are things that you lovedoing?
what are things that actuallydrive value to your business?
And then holding onto those.
Value things that you lovedoing, that you know, that, add
value to your business.
And then looking at, okay,what's on this list?
That's like time consuming,that's repetitive, that does not
(06:40):
bring me joy.
And then making a list of thosethings will then help you more
clearly to find, okay, whatroles do you need to bring in to
be able to take some of thatstuff off of your plate?
But oftentimes, I will say inthe solopreneur role, if you're
serving clients as a consultant,usually thinking about like an
account manager or executiveassistant type of role makes the
(07:03):
most sense in the beginning.
because a lot of times, youknow, as a consultant you need
to stay.
Strategic.
You need to stay high level,you need to stay advisor, and
not necessarily implementer onall of the things.
And so if you can bring someonein that can schedule your
meetings and that can keepcontent moving forward and that
could communicate with yourclients, and keep track of just
(07:25):
like all the people that are inyour world, it allows you to
stay higher level and providemore value to your clients.
Sarah Noel Block (07:31):
Yeah, and then you have the actual time to
grow your business and do yourlike, show up in your marketing,
show up for sales and biz dev,which you wouldn't have if
you're stuck in fulfillment allthe time.
Sara Nay (07:43):
Yeah, and that is one of the challenges that I see
with solopreneurs as they'rejust getting started, is they
don't wanna hire because theydon't have a ton of clients yet.
And so they're like, I can justdo it.
But then all of a sudden theyhave.
Two, three clients and then allof a sudden their client's
businesses are more importantthan theirs.
And so their business takes asecond seat completely, and then
(08:05):
they stall in growth and theycome up for air and they wonder
why.
And so I always encourageentrepreneurs, like, even if
you're just getting started.
Hire sooner than you feel likeyou're, you're maybe thinking
about it or ready from afinancial standpoint, but you
can always hire by starting withsomeone very part-time,
starting slowly, starting themhourly, and then they can grow
(08:28):
into a, a larger position overtime.
And so that's the route thatwe've always taken at Duct Tape
Marketing.
We we do have full-timeemployees, but we also work with
a lot of contractors as well.
And whenever I'm bringing onsomeone new, regardless if
they're gonna turn into afull-time employee or not, I
start them at like 10 ish hoursa week in the beginning.
(08:49):
And I'm paying them hourlybecause I wanna determine does
it make sense for them?
Are they gonna be a good fit?
Like do, am I ready tointroduce them to more of our
clients because.
You know, you have to startslower.
But then having theconversation with them from the
very first interview is like,we're gonna start at like 10
hours a week.
We're gonna get to know eachother, we're gonna build trust.
we could, there's opportunityto scale this up to even
(09:10):
full-time, if that's ofinterest.
So, you know, asking theperson, are you good with
starting slower?
Do you have ability?
If it, if it goes well, toreally ramp up further.
And I think if you think abouthiring that way, it seems a lot
less intimidating because you'renot committing to a full-time
person from the very beginning.
You're starting small.
You're building relationshipand then you can scale them up
(09:31):
from there.
Sarah Noel Block (09:32):
Yeah, I think that that's the only mistake I
did not make at the beginning ofmy business was when I first
got my very first client.
I was still working corporate,but I hired a VA immediately.
And I just took a percentage ofwhat I was making from that one
client and set that as thebudget for the because I knew I
(09:55):
could afford that.
It was, it was that.
And, because I was able toonboard her, slowly, like she
didn't have like a ton of stuffright away.
Our relationship and she wasable to take on so much.
She was able to take on so muchmore responsibility because she
could ease into it.
(10:16):
Whereas I'll talk about theshitty thing that I did.
now she got a full-time job.
I had to figure some stuff out,but at this point I had 13
clients and it was a full-timejob.
I was no longer corporate, andI was in a mad rush to hire
people.
And at that point I did not doit slowly.
(10:36):
took onboarding was so roughand I work with any of those
same freelancers today becauseit was just like I was in such
a, a difficult place that Iwasn't able to onboard them
appropriately or even like vetthem appropriately.
Sara Nay (10:54):
Yeah, and it's such a better experience, the one with
the VA that you shared, whereyou started slowly and you built
over time for you and yourclients and that freelancer as
well.
'cause I've also made the samemistake years ago.
You know, I brought someone onas an account manager.
I introduced 'em to like sixclients right off the bat.
They were completelyoverwhelmed.
(11:14):
There was so much to learn sofast that they ended up not
working out, and so we had tolet them go, and so.
We had to let them go was a,was a negative in that story,
but also like I had to go backto all the clients and be like,
okay, now you have a new accountmanager.
Hopefully this person lastslonger than two months.
so it's, it's really importantto just start slower, in the
(11:36):
beginning.
And so, you know, I know wewere gonna talk about onboarding
as well.
So now when I bring on new teammembers.
we always start with like,first you're going to go through
training, and then when you'reready, you're gonna start
shadowing on one client, andthen you're gonna start getting
involved with that one client.
And you're gonna learn all ofour systems and processes and
ways of doing things and all ofour tools and all of that with
(11:59):
that one client.
And then once you prove that,you know, things are working out
and, and we can trust you,we'll give you a second client.
You'll get comfortable withthat second client, we'll give
you a third client.
You'll get comfortable thereuntil you get to the point where
you're at capacity.
And so I'm a big believer in,you know, spending as much time
as possible in your onboardingand training to then set them up
(12:20):
for long-term success.
And another thing that we dotoo, that I've learned over the
years is, you know, initiallywhen we were onboarding, we
would say, okay, we'll have likeyour onboarding meeting, give
you a bunch of stuff, and thenwe'll meet with you, you know,
several days later.
And it just left people feelingreally overwhelmed.
And so now every single time weonboard someone, regardless of
their position, we have dailymeetings in the beginning, where
(12:44):
it's like, okay, here's yourproject management board that we
set up.
'cause we always use monday.comis what we use with your tasks
for day one.
Here's exactly what you need todo for day one.
Go do it.
Ping me on slack if you needme.
We'll meet again tomorrowmorning and then the next day we
say, okay, here's your tasksfor day two.
Go do these exact things.
Because if you give people toomuch information in the
(13:04):
beginning, they'll just getstuck.
So if you can meet with themdaily and break it down to like,
here's your five things to doversus 25 for the week, it's
gonna make 'em a lot lessoverwhelmed.
And it's also gonna make yourlife easier because I felt like.
In the beginning when I wasgiving people too much, then
they were just constantlyslacking me and asking me
questions, and so it wasactually taking more time than
(13:25):
getting on the call with themfor, you know, 15, 20 minutes a
day to make sure they had whatthey needed, to see how they did
on their previous tasks and toset them up for success.
Sarah Noel Block (13:34):
That is really smart and I, I just wanna point
out that.
It works a lot better that waywhen you're onboarding clients
too, like I, I have found thatwhen I give them too much
information upfront, it'soverwhelming.
But if I give them micro tasksthat they're working through and
(13:55):
just showing them just whatthey need to see at that moment
in time, it's so much easier forthem and they're like, okay.
Task complete task.
Complete task complete, andthen I can move on to the next
thing.
So it works
Sara Nay (14:08):
I think just in communication in general, like
if you can make things as simpleand straightforward as possible
and not feel like this massivething to start, then people will
actually start.
And so another example on thatis like we've rolled out
documenting our systems andprocesses within our business.
Uh, we've done it over theyears, but we rolled out a new
system for doing it essentially.
(14:29):
And so the.
Girl on my team that mapped itout for everyone and
communicated put all of thiswork into how everyone needed to
get started.
And it just felt like when shecommunicated with everyone that
it was this big hurdle forpeople to get started.
And so no one actually gotstarted.
But then when we were able totake a look at and be like,
where can we simplify this tomake it like, Hey, I just need
(14:49):
to do this one thing and it'sonly gonna take me a few
minutes, and then it will feel alot easier after I do that.
And so we simplified how wecommunicated and now people are
making a lot more progress.
And so you just need to, youknow, make things as
straightforward as possible andnot make it feel like I have to
figure out this whole thing, orpeople just won't take the time
to get started.
Sarah Noel Block (15:09):
Yeah, and I wanna point out an episode I had
a couple weeks ago with PamelaKing depending on when people
are listening to this, but shetalked about how you should
start creating your looms oryour walkthrough videos as
you're doing your tasks, whetheryou hired someone or not.
So you have those available foryour upcoming hires whenever
(15:33):
you happen to hire them.
And then you said you usedMonday, so you could just attach
the link to the Loom right inthat Monday task.
Like, this is how you do it.
Sara Nay (15:42):
Yeah, absolutely.
And videos are incredible fortraining team and clients and
communication, but we actuallywould take it one step further
'cause I, I think when peopleare being trained on processes,
watching a video once isabsolutely wonderful.
But then after they watch thevideo and they understand the
process, then they just need achecklist to follow.
And so, transcribe the video,put it into Create a checklist
(16:06):
and then create a document thathas the process, name the video
embedded, and then the actionitems below, because then the
second, third, fourth time theygo back to do that process, they
can just check the boxes tomake sure that they hit all the
steps versus having to likere-watch the video and make sure
they didn't forget something.
Sarah Noel Block (16:23):
Yeah, that makes complete sense.
So.
Like going back to the notoverwhelming people, would you
create a single doc with likedifferent tabs depending on the
task, or would you have aseparate doc for each task?
Sara Nay (16:38):
Separate doc for each task?
Ultimately.
Yeah.
Unless it's like, you know, itjust kind of depends on what, so
like, let's give an example.
We're a marketing company, solet's say it's, you know,
creating a blog post for aclient like that would be all
documented on one.
Document, but then if it's likeoptimization from an SEO
standpoint, like that might be aseparate document that are like
(17:00):
related, but like it's twoseparate processes
Sarah Noel Block (17:03):
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
anything else on onboardingbefore we move on to systems and
processes?
Sara Nay (17:10):
No, I mean the biggest thing is just don't overwhelm
people start slower than youwant to, communicate with them
as much as you can to set 'em upfor success.
Sarah Noel Block (18:19):
Yeah, I really do like, like you could, those
morning meetings for that firstweek could just be like 15
minutes but it sets them up tobe able to understand like,
these the things that I need toget done by the end of the day.
Sara Nay (18:32):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Oh, and another one too, Iguess that relates to all this
is time tracking.
So have them track their timefrom the very beginning.
a lot of times people don't.
Love time tracking.
If they're a freelancer,they're used to it.
but getting them to start fromthe very beginning, especially
if you're incorporating it asclient work.
And so you're, you know,figuring out your cost and
profitability within clientwork.
(18:53):
But we have people track theirtime a hundred percent from day
one.
So there's not pushback whenthey're with us for a while, and
then we eventually ask 'em to.
but it gives you really goodinsights as well because you're
able to look at how they'respending their time and where
they're getting stuck.
And so.
There's another story in thisand why this was helpful is we
(19:14):
onboarded a team member recentlyand we use for a lot of work
that we do among other AI tools.
And one of the things I washaving him do was pull a deep
research report in and when youpull a deep research report, it
takes.
10 ish minutes, depending onthe context to generate that
report before it gets somethingback to you.
And so he did that for aclient.
He got the report back, butthen he didn't realize that he
(19:37):
needed to turn off deep researchmode.
So every single time he wasprompting he was waiting 10 ish
minutes for response.
That was a full report.
And so.
I wouldn't have uncovered thatif he wasn't time tracking his
time clearly, because I was ableto meet with him and be like,
why did this take you like twohours when it would've taken me?
(19:58):
10, 15 minutes.
And so we uncovered that heneeded to turn off deep research
mode.
So that was a good learningopportunity for us, that you
would, you know, sometimes Iforget about those things 'cause
it seems obvious 'cause I'm inthose platforms for, you know,
the time.
And so for some it's a littlebit newer to it.
you need to explain some stuffin more detail, obviously But
that was a good learning that ifhe wasn't tracking his time and
(20:19):
putting details as to what hewas doing, I don't know how long
that would've gone on for.
Sarah Noel Block (20:23):
Do you use any specific apps for time
tracking?
Sara Nay (20:26):
Yeah, well, we've used Harvest for a long time.
it's just the one that we'veused.
I don't necessarily I mean,there's better, cheaper options
that are available.
I'm actually exploringswitching over to right now,
because it has more features.
but, you know, I, I don't thinkyou need something.
Over the top.
It just depends on, you know,what all you're trying to do.
but what I like, 'cause again,we serve clients is I'm able to
(20:49):
track in the time trackingtools, you know, our revenue
from the client, and then alsothe hours that are spent from
our team.
And I'm able to see reportsbecause that's, that's a
challenge as well as asolopreneur when you start
bringing in team members.
You'll see your profitabilitygo down.
And so you need to price yourengagements to, justify bringing
(21:11):
on these team members.
And so in our engagements, wehave very specific profitability
goals.
And so then when I am, youknow, every single month I'm
looking at where my team is andanytime we have a new client,
I'm like, okay, here's yourbudgeted hours as the fractional
CMO and as the account manageron this account, if you're going
to go over.
Please let me know and let meknow why you're going over.
(21:32):
And then at the end of everymonth, we look at their hours
and we say, okay, you weregreen, yellow, or red, depending
on where you're at in relationto our profitability goals.
Like, why were you in the redor yellow?
How do we get this client backOn track, do we need to increase
scope, or was there just someweird one-off things that
happened?
And so it's, you know, withinclient accounts, it's not enough
(21:54):
to just track it, it's to setspecific hour goals and it's to
communicate with your team on aregular basis, whether or not
they're on track and how to getthem back on track.
Sarah Noel Block (22:04):
That's really smart.
I, I was time trackingeverything that I did for this
period of time because I wastrying to figure out which one
of my offers was the mostprofitable.
That's Like how much time am Ispending on this thing?
And then when I looked at it,I'm like, I'm spending the most
time on this thing.
They don't even care about.
Sara Nay (22:24):
Yep.
Yeah, yeah, cut that off.
And great insight.
And then you also will find,you know, maybe you're spending
way too much time on somethingthat's still valuable, but
there's ways to then optimizethat time by bringing in AI
tools to help make things moreefficiently.
So if you're not time tracking,it's hard to make those
decisions 'cause you're makingthose decisions based on
(22:46):
feelings.
also time tracking helps youthen price.
Engagements moving forwardbecause you'll say, okay, this
similar client, similar needs,we are hitting our profitability
goals.
It's priced at this, so it justhelps you make better pricing
decisions as well.
Sarah Noel Block (23:01):
Yeah, that's something that I was talking to
someone about on LinkedInyesterday.
Uh, he how do you figure outyour pricing?
And that was exactly it.
I was like, I literally timedit to figure out how much it
needs to be.
And then I was neverquestioning like.
Am overcharging orundercharging?
I'm like, this is the amount ithas to be.
Sara Nay (23:17):
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
And that's a big piece whenpeople are are just getting
started.
We work with a lot of peoplethat have, you know, left
corporate and this is theirfirst time launching their own
business.
And confidence in pricing issometimes a challenge for people
when they're just gettingstarted and so they undercharge.
Then they don't increase theirprices and then they get really
(23:37):
busy again, but not hittingtheir revenue growth goals
they'd hoped for.
And so, you know, I, I'm alwaysa big believer in like, as
you're just getting started,yes, you can charge less than
you want to be at in thebeginning in exchange for like
case studies or testimonials,but increase the prices, every
single engagement till you getto the point where you really
wanna be.
(23:58):
and I think that's importantbecause your confidence will
grow.
The more work you do withclients and the more stories you
have to tell and the moreresults you're getting, but
definitely challenge you to notjust kind of set your pricing
and stick there.
It's an opportunity to continueto grow and evolve and, and
charge more the, with the morevalue you bring over time.
Sarah Noel Block (24:15):
Yeah, that is a great point.
Like you can, and I would,because I'm seeing, like I'm in
this group with a ton ofconsultants and the number one
thing that I see people complainabout is like, this is a legacy
client.
They're at the beginning of mybusiness and they're still
paying.
maybe say upfront like this iscase study pricing and it's only
(24:38):
valid for the first year orwhatever.
And then every, like you said,every client, you can increase
your price just a little bituntil you get to the point where
you want to be.
And usually
Sara Nay (24:50):
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
And, and the point on theretainer clients, we typically,
for the marketing space, again,recommend charging, uh, or
planning out a quarter of a timefor marketing priorities.
And so essentially you'resaying, okay, here's your next
90 days that we're gonna executeon together.
About midway through that,we're gonna start looking at
your next 90 days.
(25:11):
And we're gonna map out those90 days so your marketing can
continue to evolve.
And so when you're doing that,you're then presenting them
essentially a new plan for every90 days at a time and a sprint.
And so I don't believe youshould like every 90 days come
in with like a new price point,but it helps you, have the
conversation of like, this iswhat we're committing to for the
first 90 days.
(25:31):
We'll lay the foundation, we'llstart getting you some results.
Once we do that, we might bringin bigger projects to help
increase your growth.
And so you're setting the stagefrom the very beginning of
like, we're not gonna just dothe same things forever because
I don't think that does anyone agood service.
We are going to help yourmarketing grow and evolve.
And with that, the more successwe get, the our retainer might
(25:53):
increase because we'll bebringing on more opportunity.
Sarah Noel Block (25:56):
And that's great having that conversation
upfront so people aren'tshocked.
'cause people are really afraidto raise their prices and lose
those clients.
But if you are straightforwardwith them from the very
beginning, like, this is a dealbecause of this.
Sara Nay (26:10):
Yes, exactly.
Sarah Noel Block (26:11):
they're not gonna be shocked when the price
goes up.
Sara Nay (26:14):
yeah,
Sarah Noel Block (26:15):
Okay.
So last piece.
Are any systems or processesthat we haven't already talked
on, 'cause we've weaved it intothis conversation that we should
be aware of when we're hiringand onboarding.
Sara Nay (26:29):
Yeah, Years ago, another mistake story.
probably about, yeah, probablyabout 12 years ago now at Duct
Tape Marketing.
we were like, we're gonnadocument every system and
process.
And so I led the charge andessentially was like, okay,
every single person on the teamneeds to document one per week,
and they need to submit it to meby Friday, and then I'll review
it and I'll put it in GoogleDrive, and then no one ever
looked at them again.
Sarah Noel Block (26:50):
Yeah.
Sara Nay (26:52):
yeah, I think a lot of people have probably, so, you
know, more recently we now lookat our systems and processes as
we map out what we call like ouroverall engines or flows.
And so how do we, one of ourmain packages, for example, is
something called Strategy First.
It's a 30 to 45 day packagewhere we start with clients and
(27:12):
we map out a strategy.
So we essentially mapped outwhat are all of the steps in
First that we want every singleclient to experience every
single time.
So it starts with, you know,completed payment and signed
agreement, and then they fillout an intake form and then we
do a discovery call, and thenwe, you know, do these research
elements.
And so we basically mapped outall of the steps and then we
(27:33):
looked at it and we said, okay,out of these steps, which Need
systems and processes documentedbecause a human's gonna do them
and there's multiple steps inthem and we don't want any
mistakes.
And again, we wanna ensure aconsistent experience across the
board.
And then those are the systemsand processes that we
documented.
So it's not about going throughlike, let's document everything
(27:54):
in your business.
It's what are the reoccurringthings that you're doing on a
consistent basis that are reallyimportant to you, your
business, your clients, and it'sdocumenting those.
Sarah Noel Block (28:05):
Yeah, I love that.
'cause I have done the samething, like let's document
everything
Sara Nay (28:11):
Yes.
Sarah Noel Block (28:12):
and then like something dies off.
I'm like, Actually don't likedoing that anymore, but I wasted
all that time documenting it.
Or the process changed sodrastically because maybe
technology changed that it'sworthless six months later.
Um, those big things thatyou're doing, like, for me, like
for example, documenting thatprocess would make a lot more
(28:36):
sense.
'cause I'm doing it with prettymuch every client.
Sara Nay (28:39):
And right now, if it's not documented, it lives in
your head.
So bringing on someone andtraining them is really
challenging.
But if you are starting todocument it now and you get it
all mapped out and like thewhole flow with the individual
steps and systems below it, likenow next time you bring on
someone, like they could shadowyou along and doing it with the
client, but they also can followthrough all the steps in the
(29:00):
process to learn.
And then when they do theirfirst one on their own.
They then can follow thatprocess again to make sure that
they're delivering the sameresults as you hopefully would
for clients as well.
Sarah Noel Block (29:11):
Yeah, that's a good point.
Okay.
Thank you so much foreverything that we've talked
about today.
how can people work with youand find you online?
Sara Nay (29:20):
So Duct Tape Marketing is our company, so and then I'm
very active on LinkedIn aswell.
So again, my name is Sarah Nay,and I would love to connect
with you.
Sarah Noel Block (29:28):
I'm gonna connect with you right after
Sara Nay (29:29):
Let's do it.
Sarah Noel Block (29:31):
Alright, I will talk to you later.
Thanks all.
Speaker (29:36):
If this episode made things go a little more doable,
I'd love to help you take thenext step with the Booked Out
Blueprint.
It's a practical, low pressuresession to clarify your offers,
your marketing, and whatactually moves the needle.
You can book yours through thelink in the show notes.
You don't have to figure it outalone.
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