April 19, 2026 • 61 mins
We unpack a simple framework for choosing the right kind of community so your growth feels sustainable instead of chaotic. Brie Lever breaks down how free vs paid and education vs connection change everything from engagement to ROI, plus the myths that quietly sabotage most community launches.
• Defining community through identity, connection, education and shared purpose
• Drawing a clear line between an audience and a community
• Using the free vs paid axis to match community to business model
• Using the education vs connection axis to match community to member maturity
• Agora communities, low friction groups for loyal customers and fans
• Nurturing communities, communal learning that supports a product
• Transformative communities, paid learning journeys with clear outcomes
• Nexus communities, paid networks where relationships are the value
• Why a 50 50 education and connection split creates competing communities
• Why a free community rarely becomes a clean pipeline to paid
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:01):
Welcome to Tiny Marketing Podcast.
I'm Serena Off Block.
This show is made for soloconsultants who want to get
booked out without burning out.
If you've ever thought, I justwant that to feel easier, you're
not alone.
Around here, we focus on simple,sustainable growth that actually
fits into your life so growthfeels doable instead of
overwhelming.
(00:22):
Hey, just a heads up.
This is a recording from a livestream training by Brie Lever on
the four types of communitiesyou can choose from to support
your business.
Enjoy.
SPEAKER_00 (00:31):
Hi everyone.
My name is Brie Lever, and I'm acommunity strategist and the
founder at Ember, where we helpcoaches, consultants, and
creators build online paidcommunities, which is a specific
type, which we'll talk abouttoday.
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (00:49):
Okay, I'm going to add your presentation and I will
let you take it.
I'll remove myself.
SPEAKER_00 (00:58):
All right.
Here we go.
So today we're going to talkabout the four types of
communities.
If you've caught my podcastepisode with Sarah, then you
have a little teaser of this.
And I'm excited to do a muchdeeper dive today.
This is one of my, it's it's myfavorite talk to give.
Don't tell the other talks.
(01:19):
But um I love it when this talkcan be a little bit more
conversational.
So as you come in, add your nameto the chat so we know that
you're here.
And um, Sarah and I will behaving some of the discussion,
but get your fingers ready totype because what makes this
talk really valuable isobserving for yourself what
(01:43):
communities you have gravitatedto both in the past and today,
and noticing how that haschanged.
It will give you some insightsinto just how the community
industry has changed, but itwill land a lot.
Um, it will it will impact you alot more when you think about it
through the lens of your ownexperience.
So get your fingers ready totype.
(02:05):
A little bit more about me.
I'm I mentioned I'm thecommunity strategist and founder
at Ember.
We've been doing this since2020.
I'm a huge water person,entrepreneur, and mom to be.
I live here on Hawaii Island,and um, so hence the big water
person.
There might be birds, bird dramahappening in the background of
(02:27):
the call, which we will make dowith.
And a little bit about wherewe're headed today.
So we're gonna start by definingcommunity.
We're gonna move into the fourtypes of communities, some of
the myths.
We're not gonna get to how totest your community concept
today.
(02:47):
I have that in um kind of afull, full masterclass version
of this talk, but we will talkabout where to get support.
All right, let's dive right in.
I want to start by definingcommunity, and I have my own
definition, but it's lessinteresting to me than what
(03:08):
folks here on the call thinkcommunity is.
And Sarah, I have to pick on youbecause you're here with me.
Do you have a do you have like aworking definition of community
that you'd be willing to sharewith the class?
SPEAKER_02 (03:24):
Oh my goodness.
I would say a group of peoplewho come together and um usually
they they have some sort ofchallenge or goal that they're
all going towards.
That's what I usually thinkabout.
SPEAKER_00 (03:39):
Yeah, perfect.
So my my definition is reallyclose to that.
I change it every like sixmonths or so.
I I define it as people who haveidentified as members of a group
that gathers for connection,education, and a common purpose.
People will often also put umshared interests or values
(04:00):
alignment as part of thedefinition for a community.
What's what's really criticalabout this definition and the
word that I want to zero in onis identity.
So what differentiates acommunity from an audience, um,
and there's a few things, andwe'll talk about them, um, is is
(04:21):
the members' identity with thegroup.
Once they have identified as amember and you've you've kind of
secured a member on an identitylevel, there's a lot more that
you can do with them.
There's a lot more ways that youcan activate them, that you can
um create transformation andimpact rather than kind of the
(04:44):
consumer or audience memberposture.
It's not to say that audiencesaren't necessary and helpful and
plenty of transformation to behad in an audience and as an
audience member, but communitykind of takes it to the next
level.
Speaking of which, let'sdifferentiate what it's not.
So I really, I really draw aquite firm boundary between
(05:08):
community and audience.
And not all community buildersdo that, but I found for um
creating and designing animpactful space, it helps to
have clear boundaries there.
Um, community is not yourfollowing, it's not an email
list.
Communities can often start,often do start from these places
(05:28):
and get sourced from theseplaces.
Um, but I like to draw adistinction.
Uh, it's not a QA forum, it'snot a webinar series.
You might start to see and feelthe seeds and the beginnings of
a communal experience in theseplaces.
Um, so I don't want to get toodogmatic about it, but um I do
like to again draw those firmboundaries around what a
(05:50):
community is so that we can getreally clear on that identity.
And there's a there's a momentof commitment when someone comes
into a community that doesn'treally happen in these other
places.
All right.
Let's move on to the good stuff.
So this is why you're here.
We're gonna talk about the fourtypes of communities, and I want
(06:12):
you, if you're watching this, Iwant you to bring to mind a
community that you are in.
This might be a community thatyou are running, or if you don't
have a community right now, itmight be one that um you
participate in.
It might be a tiny marketingclub, for example.
So bring to mind a communitythat you're in, and I want you
(06:36):
to think about this next matrixin the context of the community
that came to your mind.
All right.
First layer of this matrix isvery simple: free versus paid.
And I'm what I'm gonna say nextis sounds very, very simple, but
I promise you it has come from aa decade of working in this
(06:59):
space.
And it is a it's a hard-earnedsimplicity that came out of a
lot of complexity.
So here it is.
Free communities work best forproduct-based companies.
Paid communities work best forservice-based businesses.
(07:20):
Free, product-based, paid,service-based.
There is I that will save you aworld of confusion for you and
your customers alike indiscerning what type of
community to build for yourbusiness.
By and large, yeah.
Oh, Sarah has a question.
You have a question?
Tell me.
SPEAKER_02 (07:39):
I do have a question.
Is product based because like itwould be a user group?
Is that why product-based shouldbe free and then service-based
paid?
SPEAKER_00 (07:49):
Yeah, it will it will become even more clear with
the next layer.
But essentially, when you have aphysical product and a paid
community, it can work formature companies, but in the
beginning, the intention andpurpose of the community is to
move people and nurture peopletowards your paid product.
(08:12):
And so the community is justbetter situated either at the
very top of your funnel whereyou're nurturing customers to
learn more about the product, orthe very bottom of your funnel
where you're activating yourlike super fan loyal customers.
And those two tend to be in thefree spaces.
Okay.
Yeah, great question.
(08:35):
All right.
The next layer is everycommunity has a combination of
education and connection.
In education-centriccommunities, the value comes
from the curriculum.
Connection-centric communities,on the other hand, the value
(08:56):
comes from the connectionsbetween your members.
It comes from the container.
It really comes from more of thedesign of the environment.
It doesn't mean education isn'thappening because education is a
byproduct of connection.
But what I mean by education isit's a it's usually a guided,
(09:16):
intentional learning journey.
We are going from point A topoint B.
These are the three steps wewill be taking to get there, and
we're going to do it as a group.
Beginners usually neededucation.
Mature members or customers orclients usually need connection.
(09:40):
So this is a like a cheat sheetto where you fall on this matrix
is asking yourself, who do youserve and where are they at in
their journey towards whateveroutcome or transformation we're
hoping that they get?
Are they just starting out?
They don't know what they don'tknow, and they really need that
structure of aneducation-centric environment.
(10:03):
Or have they been doing this awhile and they they know the
rules of the game, they've beenexercising them.
They just need they need a placeto practice and they need a
place to rub shoulders withother people who are doing it
too.
So that that's like a reallyagain, it sounds overly
simplified, but I promise you ithas come from years of
hard-earned complexity watchingpeople struggle with with this
(10:27):
matrix and how to design theircommunities.
All right.
So this free connection centric,these are Agora communities.
So where the connections betweenyour members supports the
product or the business.
(10:49):
So what these look like, theseare communities for loyal
customers, user groups.
Sarah, you mentioned this is agreat spot for those.
Um fan or super usercommunities, ambassador
communities can sit here too.
The pros of these communitiesare they're they're very easy to
(11:09):
join.
There's low friction, they'refree, but they work well when
the product they are supportingis not competitive in any way
with the community.
So there has to be a symbiosisthere.
Some of the challenges that comewith this community are they're
(11:30):
very low commitment.
So it can be um it can bedifficult to get the momentum of
engagement and higher engagementrates.
It's this is this is the type ofcommunity that is the most
difficult to get them to adopt anew technology.
So most that's part of why thesecommunities have traditionally
(11:54):
lived in social networks.
And by social network, I definethat my very my very fancy
polished definition is a placewhere everybody kind of already
is.
But it's really it's it's agathering place, it's a social
media, our social networks.
Um, but you'll find thesecommunities tend to live in
(12:15):
places like Facebook groups orSlack, is even I would
categorize in this this categorynow.
Platforms where most of theirmembers are already interacting
daily.
This group is also the mostdifficult to prove ROI.
So if you encounter an Agoracommunity for especially for
(12:37):
like a brand, um, it's typicallybecause the the C-level
leadership intrinsicallybelieves in community because
there's not much ROI that you'regonna be able to, and any ROI
you can actually like source forthis type of community, you
(12:59):
usually spent like three timesas much energy trying to like
prove it that it's working.
So usually there's kind of thisinerrant belief that like this
is valuable to our brand, butit's really difficult to prove
and to track and to measure,just to be totally honest.
So these communities lived inFacebook groups for a long time.
(13:20):
Like I dare you to think of aFacebook group that isn't an
Agora community, but now they'lllive in WhatsApp groups, Slack,
or other social networks.
Um, I'm curious, Sarah, what isis are there any Agora
communities that are coming tomind that you've seen or that
you've loved or hated orsomewhere in between?
SPEAKER_02 (13:38):
Yeah, I was in one that was called Fractionals
United, and they just moved toPaid.
And so I really loved it forwhen it was free, but not
because it was free.
It was just structureddifferent.
And then when they moved it topaid, it changed completely.
(13:59):
So that was the first one thatpopped into my head that I
actually used.
And then the other one is likein my writing world, the forums
on like the back end of actuallyit goes along with what you were
saying, the back end of liketech that I use.
They usually have free communityforums in there.
(14:19):
And those I really love.
Those are a great way to connectwith other writers.
SPEAKER_00 (14:23):
Yes, yes, exactly.
You nailed it.
Can I ask what some of thechanges were for Factionals
United, like the the changes totheir structure?
SPEAKER_02 (14:32):
Yeah, the thing I loved about it before is we
would have these monthly meetupswhere everybody would connect
and we'd go around the room andtalk about like what was going
on.
And she or they cut that pieceout.
And that was the only reason Iwas in it.
Yeah, like to have thatconnection point.
SPEAKER_00 (14:51):
Yeah, that's really common for connection-centric
communities.
Um, even like in theentrepreneurial community,
people will say that like I'mjust in it for like the
bi-monthly connection calls.
Like, that's literally like whyI'm here.
That's the only thing that Iparticipate in.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (15:09):
Yes, the events are the reason that I show up.
So I can meet other people thatare dealing with what I'm
dealing with.
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (15:17):
Yep, 100%.
Some uh some examples that I'veseen as well.
Lego Ideas is like one of myfavorite examples of the Negora
community.
And they did something reallyunique in the space and that
they didn't build in a socialnetwork.
So, like there, the Lego Ideascommunity belongs, like it's
like a custom built site thatLego built, and people can
(15:40):
submit their Lego CAD designs tothe community to be voted on.
And when um, so they'll do likea Taylor Swift Eras Tour like
Lego set challenge, andeverybody submits their CAD
design for what they want theLego set for the Taylor Swift
Eras Tour to look like.
(16:01):
And um, if yours gets selected,it will like go into production.
But they've basically outsourcedlike a massive part of their of
their brilliant, yeah.
It's so smart, and people likelike geek out about it, like
people love it.
There's like tens of thousandsof members and votes happening,
so that's a really fun one.
(16:22):
And then um, Slumberkins is likea great example of like they're
a kid's like toy product, butthey have like a raving um like
loyalty Facebook group wherethey gather their customers and
it's like hyperactive, andpeople like lose their minds
over Slumberkins product in thatgroup.
So it's a good example.
(16:44):
Okay.
Next up, we've got nurturingcommunities.
This is where communal learningsupports the product or the
business.
These look like SaaS customercommunities, to be honest.
This is like the predominant umlike way that I see nurturing
(17:06):
communities leveraged forbusiness.
So the pros are these are easyto join, they're free.
Um, they're most successful whenthey live under customer success
within an organization.
Um, but not every company has acustomer success team.
So they kind of, I have a wholeother like talk and article
(17:26):
about like where your communityshould live in an organization,
particularly for these freeones.
Um, but I've generally foundthat customer success uh holds
them best.
They're easier to trackoutcomes.
So I want to differentiatebetween ROI and like outcomes
and impact, because ROI isreturn on investment to the
business.
What's the impact of thecommunity for the business?
(17:48):
But then the outcomes or impactof the community.
I'm talking more about like whatactually was the transformation
for the member.
So these can be difficult totrack ROI because there's not
really necessarily a bottomline, but it is much easier to
track the impact for thecustomer.
(18:09):
We can see, like, if we're ifthe whole purpose of the
community is to take people frompoint A to point C, we can track
and see how many people got topoint C.
How effective was this communityin helping people get there?
Some of the challenges that comewith this community, it's
difficult to generate engagementbetween members.
(18:33):
So because it's kind of easierto get people in the door
because you're saying, here'sthe thing you're gonna learn.
Here's the really specificoutcome.
But people don't always joinwith this posture of like, I'm
gonna give feedback, like reallylike with a lot of curiosity and
generosity to other members, andI want to connect with other
(18:53):
members.
So getting people baking in thatconnection ingredient takes a
little bit of sneaky designsometimes in these communities
because people don't always comeproperly postured.
So that's really important inyour onboarding.
Um, they tend to have higherchurn rates and lower engagement
rates, which again, it justcomes with the territory.
(19:15):
Um, these communities live incourse platforms, enterprise
community platforms, um, likeKajabi.
A lot of um yeah, a lot ofcourse course tools will kind of
hold these communitiesaccidentally until until people
realize there's tools that are alittle bit more comprehensive
(19:38):
for the community features thatthey need.
I'm curious if any nurturingcommunities come to mind for
you, Sarah.
SPEAKER_02 (20:49):
Yeah, I would say autocrit, the one I was talking
about before, was probably morein this education-free version
because a lot of people are justcoming there with questions.
But yeah, they have to work hardto get that engagement
happening.
Like if someone's not commentingon someone's question, there's
they'll they'll spotlight it.
Like somebody answer thisquestion for them.
SPEAKER_00 (21:10):
Yes, yes, yep, that's exactly it.
Yeah, these are these are likekind of a secret sweet spot for
consultants, especially becauseif you can find, if you're a
consultant who offers a serviceand you can find the product
that people are using that umcomplements your service,
(21:35):
hanging out in these freeeducation-centric communities is
kind of a hack.
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (21:41):
Okay, I want to second that because anytime I'm
working, I have a lot offinancial consultants in my
world, and they usuallyspecialize in some type of
software.
I'm like, there's user groupsout there, there's communities
that are specifically for thatsoftware.
SPEAKER_00 (21:59):
Get in there, get in there and show what show.
Well, yeah, there's a few waysyou can approach it.
I was gonna say show off whatyou know, but I'm like,
actually, don't do that.
But do do get in very, verygenerously and yeah, do it from
a place of curiosity.
SPEAKER_02 (22:14):
One of my clients, she has built her entire
business off of that, and she'smaking bank.
She now the those softwarecompanies just go directly to
her and they're like, Can youconsult for them?
Because they're having a hardtime with onboarding.
SPEAKER_00 (22:32):
Yes.
I mean, this is a big part ofour strategy at Ember.
So we partner, we help peoplewith their community strategy
and getting their communitiesdesigned.
We partner with communityplatforms that we know and love
and have used for years andyears.
And we send them customers andthey send us clients, and it's a
very symbiotic relationship.
(22:52):
So this can be, and it's itusually starts if you're like,
well, how do I like?
I don't know the CEO of thesecompanies.
Go into the community and startbeing helpful and it will get
noticed.
Um, a couple communities thatI've seen um that are just like
just phenomenal in their design.
(23:13):
They probably they're so big andmature that they they probably
touch elements of all four ofthese communities, but I would
like properly place them in thiscategory.
So the HubSpot community, soteaching people how to do
outbound marketing and the Etsycommunity for sellers teaches
people how to run Etsybusinesses successfully on their
(23:34):
platform.
All right, let's move into Ilove them all for different
reasons.
It's like it's like your fourchildren that you can't quite
choose between.
Is that feel sometimes?
But I really do have a sweetspot for transformative
communities.
So transformative communities iswhere communal learning is the
(23:55):
product or the business.
So these look like groupprograms, cohort-based
communities can tend to be here.
You can also have evergreenmembership transformative
communities.
Like you can, like the structureand the cadence of like um
either it being time-bound oralways open is not exclusive to
(24:19):
any one of these types ofcommunities.
But I have noticed that becauseof the nature of a
transformative community, again,we're going from point A to
point B, they tend to have moreof a time constraint around
them, which can really work totheir advantage.
Okay, so some of the strengthsof these communities.
Remember, education, these tendto be for beginners.
(24:41):
So they are in a lot of wayseasier to market because there's
a very clear outcome, very cleartransformation, and a very clear
value proposition, especiallywhen the community is centered
around um improving or umtransforming your business
outcomes.
That's that becomes an easierinvestment.
(25:03):
Um, like more like lifestyle andhobbyist communities can tend
can struggle to monetize becausethere's not as like distinct and
um visceral of a valueproposition, but they still they
still can do great.
I had a client who we built aum, they they make they teach
(25:24):
women how to make um customsewing, custom bras, and it was
called bra sewing bee.
And I mean, it was like they hadlike 600 members.
It was wild.
Um, these communities are themost willing to adopt new
technology.
So because it's paid, they havemore skin in the game, and
(25:46):
because it's education-centric,it's kind of like saying, like,
okay, we're going on the grouproad trip from point A to point
B.
We will be getting in this bus.
Even if you don't like this bus,if you want to get to point B,
you will get on the bus.
So they're just like, okay,fine.
Even if they even if they hatethe bus, they're like, okay,
fine, we have to get on the bus,whatever, we'll do, we'll deal
(26:08):
with it.
So this is really whereall-in-one community platforms,
which I kind of specialize in,this is the group that they
targeted because this is thegroup that's most willing to
adopt that new technology andovercome any friction that comes
with it.
These are also the easiest tocalculate the ROI and they're
(26:29):
paid.
So there's like a bottom linethat comes with the community
and the impact.
Now, challenges with thesecommunities.
The value of the community tendsto be centered on the teacher,
the educator, the creator, andthe curriculum.
So if you want to start movingtowards creating an offer that
(26:52):
is not completely dependent onyou and your delivery, this type
of community doesn't necessarilyget you there.
It definitely paves the way foryou to start introducing
connection as a value for yourmembers, but it also tends to
keep people a little bitdependent on you to like kind of
(27:16):
feed them the content and thenand the information.
Onboarding for members is soimportant, no matter what
(27:36):
community you have.
But I found in this communityspecifically, posturing them to
see the value in the connectionelements of the community is
really critical.
These communities tend to livein, like I mentioned, the
all-in-one community platforms.
And we're seeing like a lot ofuh course creators who I would
(28:02):
say like they didn't start witha community, but they created a
course, an educational program.
And what we're seeing is they'verealized, oh, this is like way
less effective when people arelearning in individual silos and
more effective when they're in agroup.
(28:22):
These people are trying, coursecreators are trying to move into
transformative communities.
Um, you'll see you've seen likewe've seen a big migration
there.
So, some examples of platforms.
Um, we like to work with umcircle and heartbeat, um, mighty
networks, even our clients useschool and swarm.
There's a bunch out there.
(28:43):
You can quiz me on them all.
We have I have a communityplatform comparison uh video
playlist for anybody who wantsto get really in the weeds about
um nerdy community platformtech.
SPEAKER_02 (28:56):
I got in the weeds with that when I was figuring
out where to have mine.
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (29:00):
I think is that part of how we got connected?
Or am I?
SPEAKER_02 (29:04):
Yeah, no, that is exactly how we got connected.
Because I you sent me an articlewhen I was trying to figure out
where to put my community and Istarted binging your content.
SPEAKER_00 (29:16):
Oh my gosh, I love it.
We've that's even that's been awhile now.
So it's even leveled up sinceoh, that's amazing.
Um, Sarah, do any do anytransformative communities come
to mind for you?
SPEAKER_02 (29:30):
Mine.
Yes, I have that right there.
There we go.
Yes, definitely education based.
SPEAKER_00 (29:41):
Yeah.
Yep.
I put tiny marketing here as aprime example.
Um, it is an education mecca forall things tiny marketing, and
I'm a huge fan.
Um a few others that I'veexperienced as well.
Seth Godin's Alt MBA program.
Seth Godin's known as like themarketing guy, but I really
(30:02):
consider him the originalcommunity guy too.
Um, and one of the ways thatthis was manifested was through
the Alt MBA um program.
It's like three months.
Truly one of the mosttransformative experiences of my
life, completely online withcomplete strangers.
(30:22):
Like what they designed andbuilt there was incredible.
Um, so Akimbo is like theorganization that ran Alt MBA.
And I actually have an episodewith the CEO of Akimbo.
Her name's Marie Shott.
And um, the way she thinks aboutcommunity is fascinating.
So that's uh, I think it's likeepisode two of Deer Bree for
(30:43):
anybody who wants a deeper diveon that one.
And um, Jay Klaus's The Lab isalso another one that I haven't
been a part of, but I've heardreally great things.
Okay.
Um, let's move into Nexuscommunities.
So this is where the connectionsbetween your members is the
(31:04):
product or the business.
So Nexus means a connection or aseries of connections linking
two or more things.
So what this looks like is a lotof memberships will typically
fall into this Nexuscommunities.
Again, like just because it's amembership doesn't mean it's
connection-centric.
You can have likeeducation-centric memberships,
(31:24):
but they they tend to fall intothis category.
Networking groups, associations.
These the the strengths of thisof the Nexus communities are
they are the stickiest.
So people are here for eachother.
As the owner or like founder ofone of these communities,
(31:46):
they're incredibly valuablebecause all of the value is
being created.
Not all of the value, but you'reyou're essentially designing an
environment where the value ofthe experience comes from your
members and their interactions.
So they're incredibly valuable.
It's also easy to calculate thevalue for the business because
(32:08):
they're paid.
So some of the challenges withthese communities, it's
difficult to track the outcomesand results for members.
It's also um, it's common formembers to get in and have
unarticulated expectations forwhat they want out of the
community, but they don't evennecessarily know like why
(32:30):
they're there or what liketransformation or outcome they
want because it's they're kindof slippery.
Like it just feels kind of likesit the value comes in kind of a
serendipitous way.
And so I've found that communitybuilders who have this type of
community really struggle toguide their members to see the
(32:51):
transformation that happensbecause they think the
transformation is the they thinkconnection is the outcome.
But connection is not anoutcome.
Connection connection is avehicle to some other outcome.
So for these communities, wereally focus on articulating,
even though there's not thatlinear education journey, what
(33:12):
is the transformation and whatis the impact of the community?
And we really have to promptyour members to think about it
and reflect on it because theycan um really easily just like
kind of check out if they don'tfeel like they're getting the
value, but they were neverprompted to actually like
thoughtfully consider what thevalue is and why they're
(33:34):
joining.
SPEAKER_02 (33:35):
If that makes sense, yeah, that makes sense.
So though I'm in a lot of thosepaid connection type of
communities, and I'm real fastto turn.
Like if the onboarding isconfusing, like no, if I didn't
find the right connections, likelike true relationships with
people, no, I'm out.
(33:56):
Yes, I find that those, and thismight just be me and my own
shortcomings, those would be thehardest for me to be able to run
because it's really hard tofigure out, yeah, one, what
outcome do they want, truly?
But two, how do you make surethat the connections keep
(34:17):
connecting that people areengaging?
SPEAKER_00 (34:20):
Yes, 100%.
And this one feels the mostmysterious to people.
Like it's kind of like we allknow what a good one feels like,
but articulating how we gotthere is the next impossible,
other than people being like, Idon't know, I just have great
members.
Yeah.
But there are very specific andintentional design choices that
(34:41):
led to those outcomes.
And that's part of what that'spart of what I help people
understand.
SPEAKER_02 (34:47):
Good thing you understand.
I have been a part of a lot ofthem.
And the one like the ones that Ihave loved the most, people have
told me you have to join thisone.
Yes.
So it has always come to methrough referral.
Exactly.
SPEAKER_00 (35:03):
Yeah.
And it's why they're so strong.
It's kind of like umtransformative communities
versus Nexus communities.
It's kind of like transformativecommunities are like skiing,
like it's easier to get like upand running, but then it's a lot
harder to like perfect.
Yeah.
And then Nexus communities arekind of like snowboarding, where
it's like a lot harder to likelearn and like get the momentum
(35:25):
up front.
But once you do, it's like a loteasier to like um kind of get
really, really good at it.
Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_02 (35:33):
Yeah.
So there has like at least howI'm interpreting that is there
has to be a good on-ramp thatgets people to where they need
to be to be able to get in thereand see the true value.
We have a question too fromJennifer.
Are Nexus communities focused onmentorship programs, for
example?
SPEAKER_00 (35:53):
Yeah, they can be.
A mentorship program is a greatexample of a Nexus community.
Yeah, that's a great one.
Um, moving through some of theseother challenges, these are
these communities are lesswilling to adopt new technology
unless they know the group isworth it.
And once the group is worth it,they are usually trying to get
(36:17):
off of the social network.
It's really funny.
It's kind of this like paradoxthat happens for these
communities where they to getthe momentum, they often will
have to start somewhere wheretheir members are already
existing.
But then once the group becomesreally valuable, people are
like, oh, this platform's liketoo noisy.
I'm only here for this group.
(36:39):
And I wish this group, like Iwould follow this group
anywhere.
But it like, it's it's this likereally weird, mushy thing to
figure out the timing of it.
But yeah, these communities,once they once they hit their
stride, they're like, how do weget off of this social network?
Yeah, that makes sense.
SPEAKER_02 (36:55):
I there's a couple that I'm part of, like I'm part
of a coaching group, and theircommunity is on Facebook.
I'm like, I don't even have aFacebook account.
What?
Exactly.
SPEAKER_00 (37:08):
Exactly.
Yes.
And this is where like I think alot of um, I think Facebook is
writing Nexus communities andlike some Agora communities that
are just, I mean, just ingeneral, the connection-centric
communities are that live onFacebook.
I think Facebook is getting somuch more from those communities
than those communities aregetting from Facebook.
(37:30):
But that's just my humbleopinion.
Um, so these ones, they tend toum, I mentioned they tend to
live where the members arealready interacting, but then
they want to migrate.
So you'll find them in Slack,maybe WhatsApp groups.
Um, more and more they arestarting to build an all-in-one
community platforms as thegeneral public becomes
(37:52):
habituated to these platformsand more familiar with them.
Um, you mentioned a few Nexuscommunities that you've been a
part of, Sarah.
Any others that come to mind tohighlight?
SPEAKER_02 (38:03):
Old Girls Club is my favorite one.
That one's you're in that onetoo.
There it is.
There it is.
Yes.
Um, I've been in ProsperNetwork.
Um Entrepreneista is anotherone.
Honestly, there's so many.
I could probably like go throughthis shit's creek list that I
(38:28):
have.
SPEAKER_00 (38:30):
Yeah, find even more.
No, there's so many.
Um then there's like a bunch,uh, led by community is one, and
then um one that I did aninterview with was called Porch
Canada, and they're a communityfor immigrant entrepreneurs in
Canada.
Uh, they're hosted on Slack.
SPEAKER_02 (38:51):
And Port Fest is the thing that came into my mind.
SPEAKER_00 (38:54):
Oh, oh, what's that?
SPEAKER_02 (38:57):
Um, it is concerts that happen in neighborhoods, so
the stages are people's porches.
SPEAKER_00 (39:03):
Oh, yes, we had something like that in Portland
too.
Okay.
Great example.
All right.
So these are the four Agoracommunities, nurturing,
transformative, and Nexus.
And what I want, if you're ifyou're tuning in with us, I want
you to observe which ones areyou drawn to today and why.
(39:26):
And has that changed over thelast five or 10 years?
For me, this has changed, but Idon't want to, I don't want to
like ruin the reflection forfolks.
Sarah, do you have an intuitionon?
I mean, you you kind ofmentioned it, but anything
that's coming up for you?
SPEAKER_02 (39:45):
Uh yeah, I was actually just typing it to put
it in the chat, but I am allover the Nexus communities
because it gets me in the rightrooms.
Yes.
And if there is something thatI'm wanting to learn, I prefer
the transformative communities.
Like I want to pay to be able tohave like the community aspect
(40:08):
of it.
So I'm learning with people, butlike a location where and an
outcome that I'm going to begetting.
So I prefer paid over free forthose reasons, but Nexus has
become more and more importantas I'm growing my business.
SPEAKER_00 (40:24):
Yes.
And would you say that theperson who you serve in your
business tends to be someonewho's like more mature in their
business evolution?
SPEAKER_02 (40:34):
I would say no.
I would say that they areprobably in like the one and a
half to three year range wherethey're just getting their their
footing in in building out theirbusiness.
SPEAKER_00 (40:49):
Yeah.
Okay.
Okay.
That's fascinating.
SPEAKER_02 (40:53):
Yeah, that's a transformative.
So it would make sense.
SPEAKER_00 (40:57):
But it's also it makes sense that you're in the
Nexus community looking to bringthem into your transformative
community because going intoanother transformative community
to bring them into yourtransformative community is a
little too.
Well, it's just a little liketransformative communities
aren't necessarily a great, theycan be you, they can lead to
(41:21):
great connections and evenbusiness, but um it's just a
little bit more of an awkwardtransition, I would say.
SPEAKER_02 (41:30):
Yeah.
I like them when we're alltrying to get to the same
outcome.
Like and we're learning fromeach other and sharing our wins
and how we actually got thosewins when we're all trying to
get the same one.
SPEAKER_00 (41:43):
Exactly.
And people don't necessarilywant to be sold on other
solutions when they're on thatlearning journey.
They're like, I'm focused on I'mfocused on this learning
journey.
Let me just do this first.
SPEAKER_02 (41:54):
We've got these blinders on.
SPEAKER_00 (41:56):
Yes, exactly.
But if you can also find andcollaborate with other
transformative communities thatare serving your same client but
in a different transformationjourney, that can also be a
really good sweet spot forpartnership and collaboration.
SPEAKER_02 (42:10):
Yes.
I've been thinking about that somuch.
Like, let me bring in othertransformative communities and
create like a co-author withthem.
SPEAKER_00 (42:18):
Yes.
Yes, 100%.
Yep.
Beautiful.
Excuse me.
So something I've given thistalk for like a couple years
now, and I love seeing how umpeople's responses have evolved
and noticing that transform thatthat difference.
(42:39):
One of the things that I'venoticed by and large is that
people have moved on thismatrix.
There's been a big migrationfrom free to paid.
And I contribute this to acouple of things.
One, it's kind of like where wewere with apps on your phone
(42:59):
when the like the first 10 yearsof the iPhone.
You remember, like, if if youcame across like a paid app, it
was kind of like laughable andinsulting, like, oh sweet summer
child, who do you think you aremaking me pay for an app?
And then somehow along the way,that user behavior changed.
And now I dare you to go intoyour phone and look at like how
(43:21):
many subscriptions you'veforgotten about that you signed
up for.
And it's because we realizedfree doesn't also necessarily
mean better.
It usually means clunkier,buggier.
I might have to like siftthrough ads or sift through a
lot of information that I don'tneed to find what I do need.
And so little by little overtime, we became more willing to
(43:43):
accept a paid experience,knowing that it was going to be
what we needed.
And communities are really inthe same evolution.
And I've noticed it as we'velike, you're like, okay, I could
find a free Facebook groupversion of this where I have to
wade through lots of informationand things that don't really
pertain to me, or I can pay evenjust a small amount to know that
(44:07):
I'm in the right, um, the rightspace with the right people
learning the right information.
So just an interesting thing toobserve.
Maybe that's true for you, maybeit's not.
I also like kind of swing backto nurturing communities every
like six months or so.
So they each have their ownplace in um, they each have
(44:28):
their own value.
It just depends on what you needand what you're looking for.
SPEAKER_02 (44:31):
Yeah, and nurturing communities makes sense for you
because of what you do.
Your people are going to bethere.
Yes.
Yes, 100%.
100%.
SPEAKER_00 (44:41):
And it's it's interesting to observe too, like
often if you're looking to builda community, observing the
community that you are drawn toas a member can be one of the
indicators of like noticing whatyou're drawn to and why, and how
that might relate to your owncommunity if you're looking to.
build one.
I also encourage people toconsider.
(45:03):
So this this is like one ofthree categories that we look
for alignment in to know thatbuilding a community is the
right, this is the right timefor you to build a community.
So this identifying your typealigns um the your community
with your business model.
So once we've got thisalignment, the next thing is
(45:26):
does building a community alignwith you and the type of work
that you want to do?
And the best question to startwith is are you an educator or
are you a connector?
Do you love teaching people,guiding them, kind of being a
little bit of being the educatorcan be a little bit of a savior,
savior complex too.
(45:47):
So if that's you, just like behonest about it.
And then some people likethey're like I don't want that.
I don't want to like I don'twant to have to walk guide
people through this.
I just want to create the spacewhere they go and play.
So that's kind of that's thenext area of alignment.
Then there's a third one butwe'll save that for a podcast
episode later.
Make sure you follow Dear Brieon YouTube.
(46:07):
Do we get a question?
SPEAKER_02 (46:09):
She was talking about how bad Facebook groups
are no question just agreeingwith you that Facebook groups
are throwing here I'll pull itback up.
SPEAKER_00 (46:21):
Just the Facebook teardown.
Yeah we've all it's come andgone you know we don't need to
just yeah uh okay oh yeah oh mygosh no it's the same one I just
tried to done and it doubled alot of lot of hatred for
Facebook coming in no kiddingall right um so okay I want to
(46:45):
talk through a couple myths herebut really quick before I do
that I do have a free umcommunity launch and transition
roadmap so if you're consideringlaunching a community this will
this will give you the basis forthe five milestones that you
need to consider and each of thequestions and stepping stones
along the way for each of thosemilestones.
(47:05):
So if you want to get this makesure you can sign up for the new
you can get it when you sign upfor the newsletter.
And I'll include the link thereto our form and something we
have coming up soon in um thatyou'll see coming to the
newsletter is we have a reallyfun program called Couch to
(47:26):
Connection.
And I joke that it's like Couchto 5K but less sweaty and way
more fun because I hate running.
But it's basically designed tolike get you off your butt and
into connection if community hasbeen something that you've been
considering but just not surehow to take those steps.
So you can join join the list toget the updates on when Couch to
(47:48):
Connection is coming and we'redoing it in partnership with
Heartbeat, the communityplatform.
So they're going to be hostingit with us and it's gonna be a
blast so keep an eye out.
SPEAKER_02 (47:57):
So it's like a boot camp.
SPEAKER_00 (47:58):
Yeah yep three day boot camp three days of
workshops um yeah it's gonna bea blast awesome okay let's move
do we have some time to moveinto two myths yep okay we have
10 minutes I'm looking for anewsletter so I can put it in
the chat.
Oh great thank you all right sothis is the very first the first
(48:20):
myth is my community will besuccessful with an even
distribution of education andconnection.
I have kind of a mean trick thatI play my clients when I'm like
education to connection let'sthink about it like a ratio um
we know what percentage of yourcommunity is going to be
education centric and then whatpercentage is going to be
connection centric.
(48:42):
And they'll um the ones who arereally trying to find the right
answer will be like 5050 I'mlike that's the only wrong
answer.
So why it's not actually thewrong answer but it it is if
you're starting your communitybecause what happens when you
when you say well Brie, I wantit all I want all of the
(49:02):
strengths and all of the pros ofall of these communities when
you put yourself on this linehere not only are you also
signing up for all of thechallenges what ends up
happening is you will build notjust one but two communities
because again education tends toserve your beginners and
(49:24):
connection tends to serve yourmore mature members.
So now we have two differentgoals we have two different
people coming into yourcommunity who need two different
things and even though there'ssome overlap like in the Venn
diagram of these folks there'sthere's some overlap you will
find your focus and yourprioritization for your
community completely at war anddivided it's also a lot more
(49:48):
difficult to articulate thevalue proposition of your
community and for your membersto understand if it's for them.
So if you're just starting outthere's no reason your community
can't evolve and mature intoholding both of these categories
but in the beginning pick theone that feels the most aligned
(50:14):
with you and with your businessum that's like the number one
number one thing that I see umdid this did you come up against
this at all Sarah or like haveyou seen this or felt this?
SPEAKER_02 (50:29):
Absolutely um oh tell me more asking yeah um so
it's education first in mycommunity but I kept thinking
that I needed to have thatconnection piece of it and I
think that I've talked to youabout this before my it was
originally called Tiny MarketingClub and I was like the word
(50:52):
club makes it seem like this isa connection community.
SPEAKER_00 (50:57):
So I changed it to booked out in six so it was more
clear that this is an educationcommunity and now I only focus
on sharing our wins instead ofhaving constant yeah connection
between people it is reallyreally hard I don't even know if
it's possible to do both I Ihave not found it yeah yeah it I
(51:19):
mean it it takes a lot it reallydoes um and and some people will
say like I want to bring peoplein in education and then I want
them to like progress toconnection and it's not
impossible to do what isrequired for that type of setup
(51:43):
is an audience it like anaudience building mechanism like
you you need a very big audienceto bring in enough people where
there are is like a criticalmass for both of those offers.
And what I've found actuallyhappens more often than not is
we'll start with education,we'll move people into
(52:04):
connection but you don't haveenough members consistently
flowing into your community thatthe people who you brought into
connection or brought in througheducation they kind of like
you'll bring in like a a spurtof them like they'll there'll be
like a group of them theyprogress together to connection
(52:24):
but your your flow and yourfunnel kind of like lags a
little bit and then and thenyou'll have a new group come in
or like they'll trickle in andnow you have people like like
you've got like one person hereone person here one person here
and then a group here and itsucks because then you stop
marketing your community becauseyou're like this feels like a
(52:46):
cluster.
SPEAKER_02 (52:47):
Yeah it's disconnected I was part of a
community like exactly like whatyou were talking about where it
was education first.
We all came for the same outcomebut they had this community
element and there was clicks.
SPEAKER_00 (53:01):
It ended up being clicks based off of when you
came in yes yes totally totallywhich like there's some
solidarity there that can workbut really like if you're gonna
do the education to connectionflow you got to have like your
audience building and your andyour um marketing funnels on
lock like they have to be realtight.
(53:24):
So I I'm so guilty of this umyou could like you could track
the evolution of the Embercommunity through the through
the cycles and seasons of thismatrix.
But that's part of like uhthat's what I love about
community is like the nature ofit is to change and to evolve
and your members needs changeand evolve.
(53:44):
And sometimes you decide theyreally the community purpose is
here for this very specific timeand place in someone's journey.
And then other times you havethe capacity and capability to
expand your container to holdmore of what they need.
But it it really depends.
SPEAKER_02 (54:04):
Yeah I want to highlight what you said just
there because I have been partof experiences where community
was only for a short livedperiod and it was intentional
where like a for example youwere just talking about your
boot camp where that's going onor um a summit.
(54:25):
So there's a community going onwith the summit but it's only
like five days long where you'regoing through the same thing at
the same time.
SPEAKER_00 (54:33):
Mm-hmm that's one of the so I shared about the Alt
MBA and I've when I talked toMarie like one of the things
that I can't remember if wetalked about the episode or if
it was kind of offline but shewas like people it was like the
number one thing people alwaysasked us was like please give us
a place where we can stayconnected and like after this
(54:56):
experience because theexperience itself was so
transformative and people werelike like craving more of that
and they absolutely refused todo that.
And it was part of theirstrategy where they were like
what makes this so powerful isthat it ends.
(55:17):
And that's a necessary tensionthat we are willing to hold.
They like they refused to createa connection centric space where
people could just kind of liveand be and they kept it so tight
with that educational programand like refused to budge.
SPEAKER_02 (55:34):
And I I have so much respect for that because I think
it actually made it like all themore powerful people were like
well frick if I want thatexperience again I have to just
pay to do the program again thatmakes so much sense too because
you like if something goes onforever you lose your interest
if you only have access to itfor a short period of time
(55:55):
you're in you're invested.
SPEAKER_00 (55:57):
Exactly exactly so you start to see like the play
between these two things and itcan be really tempting to be
like well I want both I wantlike a really impactful
transformative experience andthen I want the recurring
revenue of the connectionexperience.
Yeah you kind of have to pickone and pick one and hold
yourself there until you feellike you've really nailed it
(56:17):
because that's the other likebig mistake I see is people will
start in one and when they can'twhen they don't feel like
they've got it they'll they'lljust like quickly add another
and they'll be like maybe we gotit wrong.
Maybe we need to do more and I'mlike do not do more it will only
shoot you in the foot.
Okay real quick I want to moveto the next myth and this is the
(56:38):
free to paid pipeline myth.
So I don't have to have time tobust the freemium myth in its
entirety today but I do have afollow-up dear Bree podcast
episode about this that I willlink to called Top Mistakes to
avoid in setting up anall-in-one community platform
but actually starts with thisfreemium exploration.
(57:01):
So um this myth is basicallythat a free community is an
effective pipeline to your paidcommunity this does not work for
a lot of reasons that I go intodepth on in the episode.
And then I also have a real lifeexample in another episode with
Ali Ball she talks about she hadlike a paid um a paid community
(57:24):
program and she launched a freeFacebook group to lead to the
paid group and you can hearexactly how that played out
because it's so reflective ofwhat actually happens here.
SPEAKER_02 (57:37):
But the TLDR is it doesn't work pick one and stick
with it until you nail it I'vebeen part of communities that
were free and transition to paidand they did always end up like
disasters.
SPEAKER_00 (57:52):
It's really hard actually I have another episode
from Evan Hamilton's like thedirector of community at HubSpot
and he gives a really greatsynopsis of like if you are
trying to transition so this islike this is when it's like you
have both a free and a paid andyou're like the free one will
lead to the paid one thatdoesn't work.
(58:13):
A lot of times you will havefree communities that after a
period of time are like oh craphow do we monetize this and then
they need they try to transitionto paid and that's a different
um can also is also rife withchallenges but this episode with
Evan Hamilton um he gives likean overview of like what your
options are and how tofacilitate that transition um
(58:35):
more gracefully.
SPEAKER_02 (58:36):
And just an FYI this QR code that's at the top is
your newsletter.
SPEAKER_00 (58:40):
Oh amazing thank you that's fantastic all right um
I'm open for questions I knowwe've got like another minute
here but um thank you guys forhaving me this was so I I get so
nerdy about it I'm alreadysweating a little bit so this
was fun for me I'm just gonnapop some of the comments on
while we wrap up oh okay leaningtry I think I'm trying to do
(59:07):
5050 but I lean higher towardsconnection and that's what
people in my group find as thebest part of the career club.
SPEAKER_02 (59:14):
Oh I'd be so curious to hear how how this talk
impacted you thinking about the5050 and if there were any
takeaways you had from that yeahNick if you're still here feel
free to let us know um let's seewe also got this yeah that's so
(59:36):
good yeah that transition fromAgora nurturing to
transformative communitiesyou're you're not alone in that
a lot of folks feel that wayyeah I think that the
consultants that arespecializing in a specific thing
where they have a software theyhave they need to take advantage
(59:57):
of these so you don't need toown it just be in them.
Yes yep absolutely okay we areat time so we should wrap up um
thank you so much for joining metoday this was amazing if this
episode made things feel alittle more doable I'd love to
(01:00:17):
help you take the next step withthe booked out blueprint.
It's a practical low pressuresession to clarify your offers,
your marketing and what actuallymoves the needle.
You can book yours through thelink in the show notes.
You don't have to figure it outalone
Welcome to Tiny Marketing Podcast.
I'm Serena Off Block.
This show is made for soloconsultants who want to get
booked out without burning out.
If you've ever thought, I justwant that to feel easier, you're
not alone.
Around here, we focus on simple,sustainable growth that actually
fits into your life so growthfeels doable instead of
overwhelming.
(00:22):
Hey, just a heads up.
This is a recording from a livestream training by Brie Lever on
the four types of communitiesyou can choose from to support
your business.
Enjoy.
SPEAKER_00 (00:31):
Hi everyone.
My name is Brie Lever, and I'm acommunity strategist and the
founder at Ember, where we helpcoaches, consultants, and
creators build online paidcommunities, which is a specific
type, which we'll talk abouttoday.
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (00:49):
Okay, I'm going to add your presentation and I will
let you take it.
I'll remove myself.
SPEAKER_00 (00:58):
All right.
Here we go.
So today we're going to talkabout the four types of
communities.
If you've caught my podcastepisode with Sarah, then you
have a little teaser of this.
And I'm excited to do a muchdeeper dive today.
This is one of my, it's it's myfavorite talk to give.
Don't tell the other talks.
(01:19):
But um I love it when this talkcan be a little bit more
conversational.
So as you come in, add your nameto the chat so we know that
you're here.
And um, Sarah and I will behaving some of the discussion,
but get your fingers ready totype because what makes this
talk really valuable isobserving for yourself what
(01:43):
communities you have gravitatedto both in the past and today,
and noticing how that haschanged.
It will give you some insightsinto just how the community
industry has changed, but itwill land a lot.
Um, it will it will impact you alot more when you think about it
through the lens of your ownexperience.
So get your fingers ready totype.
(02:05):
A little bit more about me.
I'm I mentioned I'm thecommunity strategist and founder
at Ember.
We've been doing this since2020.
I'm a huge water person,entrepreneur, and mom to be.
I live here on Hawaii Island,and um, so hence the big water
person.
There might be birds, bird dramahappening in the background of
(02:27):
the call, which we will make dowith.
And a little bit about wherewe're headed today.
So we're gonna start by definingcommunity.
We're gonna move into the fourtypes of communities, some of
the myths.
We're not gonna get to how totest your community concept
today.
(02:47):
I have that in um kind of afull, full masterclass version
of this talk, but we will talkabout where to get support.
All right, let's dive right in.
I want to start by definingcommunity, and I have my own
definition, but it's lessinteresting to me than what
(03:08):
folks here on the call thinkcommunity is.
And Sarah, I have to pick on youbecause you're here with me.
Do you have a do you have like aworking definition of community
that you'd be willing to sharewith the class?
SPEAKER_02 (03:24):
Oh my goodness.
I would say a group of peoplewho come together and um usually
they they have some sort ofchallenge or goal that they're
all going towards.
That's what I usually thinkabout.
SPEAKER_00 (03:39):
Yeah, perfect.
So my my definition is reallyclose to that.
I change it every like sixmonths or so.
I I define it as people who haveidentified as members of a group
that gathers for connection,education, and a common purpose.
People will often also put umshared interests or values
(04:00):
alignment as part of thedefinition for a community.
What's what's really criticalabout this definition and the
word that I want to zero in onis identity.
So what differentiates acommunity from an audience, um,
and there's a few things, andwe'll talk about them, um, is is
(04:21):
the members' identity with thegroup.
Once they have identified as amember and you've you've kind of
secured a member on an identitylevel, there's a lot more that
you can do with them.
There's a lot more ways that youcan activate them, that you can
um create transformation andimpact rather than kind of the
(04:44):
consumer or audience memberposture.
It's not to say that audiencesaren't necessary and helpful and
plenty of transformation to behad in an audience and as an
audience member, but communitykind of takes it to the next
level.
Speaking of which, let'sdifferentiate what it's not.
So I really, I really draw aquite firm boundary between
(05:08):
community and audience.
And not all community buildersdo that, but I found for um
creating and designing animpactful space, it helps to
have clear boundaries there.
Um, community is not yourfollowing, it's not an email
list.
Communities can often start,often do start from these places
(05:28):
and get sourced from theseplaces.
Um, but I like to draw adistinction.
Uh, it's not a QA forum, it'snot a webinar series.
You might start to see and feelthe seeds and the beginnings of
a communal experience in theseplaces.
Um, so I don't want to get toodogmatic about it, but um I do
like to again draw those firmboundaries around what a
(05:50):
community is so that we can getreally clear on that identity.
And there's a there's a momentof commitment when someone comes
into a community that doesn'treally happen in these other
places.
All right.
Let's move on to the good stuff.
So this is why you're here.
We're gonna talk about the fourtypes of communities, and I want
(06:12):
you, if you're watching this, Iwant you to bring to mind a
community that you are in.
This might be a community thatyou are running, or if you don't
have a community right now, itmight be one that um you
participate in.
It might be a tiny marketingclub, for example.
So bring to mind a communitythat you're in, and I want you
(06:36):
to think about this next matrixin the context of the community
that came to your mind.
All right.
First layer of this matrix isvery simple: free versus paid.
And I'm what I'm gonna say nextis sounds very, very simple, but
I promise you it has come from aa decade of working in this
(06:59):
space.
And it is a it's a hard-earnedsimplicity that came out of a
lot of complexity.
So here it is.
Free communities work best forproduct-based companies.
Paid communities work best forservice-based businesses.
(07:20):
Free, product-based, paid,service-based.
There is I that will save you aworld of confusion for you and
your customers alike indiscerning what type of
community to build for yourbusiness.
By and large, yeah.
Oh, Sarah has a question.
You have a question?
Tell me.
SPEAKER_02 (07:39):
I do have a question.
Is product based because like itwould be a user group?
Is that why product-based shouldbe free and then service-based
paid?
SPEAKER_00 (07:49):
Yeah, it will it will become even more clear with
the next layer.
But essentially, when you have aphysical product and a paid
community, it can work formature companies, but in the
beginning, the intention andpurpose of the community is to
move people and nurture peopletowards your paid product.
(08:12):
And so the community is justbetter situated either at the
very top of your funnel whereyou're nurturing customers to
learn more about the product, orthe very bottom of your funnel
where you're activating yourlike super fan loyal customers.
And those two tend to be in thefree spaces.
Okay.
Yeah, great question.
(08:35):
All right.
The next layer is everycommunity has a combination of
education and connection.
In education-centriccommunities, the value comes
from the curriculum.
Connection-centric communities,on the other hand, the value
(08:56):
comes from the connectionsbetween your members.
It comes from the container.
It really comes from more of thedesign of the environment.
It doesn't mean education isn'thappening because education is a
byproduct of connection.
But what I mean by education isit's a it's usually a guided,
(09:16):
intentional learning journey.
We are going from point A topoint B.
These are the three steps wewill be taking to get there, and
we're going to do it as a group.
Beginners usually neededucation.
Mature members or customers orclients usually need connection.
(09:40):
So this is a like a cheat sheetto where you fall on this matrix
is asking yourself, who do youserve and where are they at in
their journey towards whateveroutcome or transformation we're
hoping that they get?
Are they just starting out?
They don't know what they don'tknow, and they really need that
structure of aneducation-centric environment.
(10:03):
Or have they been doing this awhile and they they know the
rules of the game, they've beenexercising them.
They just need they need a placeto practice and they need a
place to rub shoulders withother people who are doing it
too.
So that that's like a reallyagain, it sounds overly
simplified, but I promise you ithas come from years of
hard-earned complexity watchingpeople struggle with with this
(10:27):
matrix and how to design theircommunities.
All right.
So this free connection centric,these are Agora communities.
So where the connections betweenyour members supports the
product or the business.
(10:49):
So what these look like, theseare communities for loyal
customers, user groups.
Sarah, you mentioned this is agreat spot for those.
Um fan or super usercommunities, ambassador
communities can sit here too.
The pros of these communitiesare they're they're very easy to
(11:09):
join.
There's low friction, they'refree, but they work well when
the product they are supportingis not competitive in any way
with the community.
So there has to be a symbiosisthere.
Some of the challenges that comewith this community are they're
(11:30):
very low commitment.
So it can be um it can bedifficult to get the momentum of
engagement and higher engagementrates.
It's this is this is the type ofcommunity that is the most
difficult to get them to adopt anew technology.
So most that's part of why thesecommunities have traditionally
(11:54):
lived in social networks.
And by social network, I definethat my very my very fancy
polished definition is a placewhere everybody kind of already
is.
But it's really it's it's agathering place, it's a social
media, our social networks.
Um, but you'll find thesecommunities tend to live in
(12:15):
places like Facebook groups orSlack, is even I would
categorize in this this categorynow.
Platforms where most of theirmembers are already interacting
daily.
This group is also the mostdifficult to prove ROI.
So if you encounter an Agoracommunity for especially for
(12:37):
like a brand, um, it's typicallybecause the the C-level
leadership intrinsicallybelieves in community because
there's not much ROI that you'regonna be able to, and any ROI
you can actually like source forthis type of community, you
(12:59):
usually spent like three timesas much energy trying to like
prove it that it's working.
So usually there's kind of thisinerrant belief that like this
is valuable to our brand, butit's really difficult to prove
and to track and to measure,just to be totally honest.
So these communities lived inFacebook groups for a long time.
(13:20):
Like I dare you to think of aFacebook group that isn't an
Agora community, but now they'lllive in WhatsApp groups, Slack,
or other social networks.
Um, I'm curious, Sarah, what isis are there any Agora
communities that are coming tomind that you've seen or that
you've loved or hated orsomewhere in between?
SPEAKER_02 (13:38):
Yeah, I was in one that was called Fractionals
United, and they just moved toPaid.
And so I really loved it forwhen it was free, but not
because it was free.
It was just structureddifferent.
And then when they moved it topaid, it changed completely.
(13:59):
So that was the first one thatpopped into my head that I
actually used.
And then the other one is likein my writing world, the forums
on like the back end of actuallyit goes along with what you were
saying, the back end of liketech that I use.
They usually have free communityforums in there.
(14:19):
And those I really love.
Those are a great way to connectwith other writers.
SPEAKER_00 (14:23):
Yes, yes, exactly.
You nailed it.
Can I ask what some of thechanges were for Factionals
United, like the the changes totheir structure?
SPEAKER_02 (14:32):
Yeah, the thing I loved about it before is we
would have these monthly meetupswhere everybody would connect
and we'd go around the room andtalk about like what was going
on.
And she or they cut that pieceout.
And that was the only reason Iwas in it.
Yeah, like to have thatconnection point.
SPEAKER_00 (14:51):
Yeah, that's really common for connection-centric
communities.
Um, even like in theentrepreneurial community,
people will say that like I'mjust in it for like the
bi-monthly connection calls.
Like, that's literally like whyI'm here.
That's the only thing that Iparticipate in.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (15:09):
Yes, the events are the reason that I show up.
So I can meet other people thatare dealing with what I'm
dealing with.
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (15:17):
Yep, 100%.
Some uh some examples that I'veseen as well.
Lego Ideas is like one of myfavorite examples of the Negora
community.
And they did something reallyunique in the space and that
they didn't build in a socialnetwork.
So, like there, the Lego Ideascommunity belongs, like it's
like a custom built site thatLego built, and people can
(15:40):
submit their Lego CAD designs tothe community to be voted on.
And when um, so they'll do likea Taylor Swift Eras Tour like
Lego set challenge, andeverybody submits their CAD
design for what they want theLego set for the Taylor Swift
Eras Tour to look like.
(16:01):
And um, if yours gets selected,it will like go into production.
But they've basically outsourcedlike a massive part of their of
their brilliant, yeah.
It's so smart, and people likelike geek out about it, like
people love it.
There's like tens of thousandsof members and votes happening,
so that's a really fun one.
(16:22):
And then um, Slumberkins is likea great example of like they're
a kid's like toy product, butthey have like a raving um like
loyalty Facebook group wherethey gather their customers and
it's like hyperactive, andpeople like lose their minds
over Slumberkins product in thatgroup.
So it's a good example.
(16:44):
Okay.
Next up, we've got nurturingcommunities.
This is where communal learningsupports the product or the
business.
These look like SaaS customercommunities, to be honest.
This is like the predominant umlike way that I see nurturing
(17:06):
communities leveraged forbusiness.
So the pros are these are easyto join, they're free.
Um, they're most successful whenthey live under customer success
within an organization.
Um, but not every company has acustomer success team.
So they kind of, I have a wholeother like talk and article
(17:26):
about like where your communityshould live in an organization,
particularly for these freeones.
Um, but I've generally foundthat customer success uh holds
them best.
They're easier to trackoutcomes.
So I want to differentiatebetween ROI and like outcomes
and impact, because ROI isreturn on investment to the
business.
What's the impact of thecommunity for the business?
(17:48):
But then the outcomes or impactof the community.
I'm talking more about like whatactually was the transformation
for the member.
So these can be difficult totrack ROI because there's not
really necessarily a bottomline, but it is much easier to
track the impact for thecustomer.
(18:09):
We can see, like, if we're ifthe whole purpose of the
community is to take people frompoint A to point C, we can track
and see how many people got topoint C.
How effective was this communityin helping people get there?
Some of the challenges that comewith this community, it's
difficult to generate engagementbetween members.
(18:33):
So because it's kind of easierto get people in the door
because you're saying, here'sthe thing you're gonna learn.
Here's the really specificoutcome.
But people don't always joinwith this posture of like, I'm
gonna give feedback, like reallylike with a lot of curiosity and
generosity to other members, andI want to connect with other
(18:53):
members.
So getting people baking in thatconnection ingredient takes a
little bit of sneaky designsometimes in these communities
because people don't always comeproperly postured.
So that's really important inyour onboarding.
Um, they tend to have higherchurn rates and lower engagement
rates, which again, it justcomes with the territory.
(19:15):
Um, these communities live incourse platforms, enterprise
community platforms, um, likeKajabi.
A lot of um yeah, a lot ofcourse course tools will kind of
hold these communitiesaccidentally until until people
realize there's tools that are alittle bit more comprehensive
(19:38):
for the community features thatthey need.
I'm curious if any nurturingcommunities come to mind for
you, Sarah.
SPEAKER_02 (20:49):
Yeah, I would say autocrit, the one I was talking
about before, was probably morein this education-free version
because a lot of people are justcoming there with questions.
But yeah, they have to work hardto get that engagement
happening.
Like if someone's not commentingon someone's question, there's
they'll they'll spotlight it.
Like somebody answer thisquestion for them.
SPEAKER_00 (21:10):
Yes, yes, yep, that's exactly it.
Yeah, these are these are likekind of a secret sweet spot for
consultants, especially becauseif you can find, if you're a
consultant who offers a serviceand you can find the product
that people are using that umcomplements your service,
(21:35):
hanging out in these freeeducation-centric communities is
kind of a hack.
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (21:41):
Okay, I want to second that because anytime I'm
working, I have a lot offinancial consultants in my
world, and they usuallyspecialize in some type of
software.
I'm like, there's user groupsout there, there's communities
that are specifically for thatsoftware.
SPEAKER_00 (21:59):
Get in there, get in there and show what show.
Well, yeah, there's a few waysyou can approach it.
I was gonna say show off whatyou know, but I'm like,
actually, don't do that.
But do do get in very, verygenerously and yeah, do it from
a place of curiosity.
SPEAKER_02 (22:14):
One of my clients, she has built her entire
business off of that, and she'smaking bank.
She now the those softwarecompanies just go directly to
her and they're like, Can youconsult for them?
Because they're having a hardtime with onboarding.
SPEAKER_00 (22:32):
Yes.
I mean, this is a big part ofour strategy at Ember.
So we partner, we help peoplewith their community strategy
and getting their communitiesdesigned.
We partner with communityplatforms that we know and love
and have used for years andyears.
And we send them customers andthey send us clients, and it's a
very symbiotic relationship.
(22:52):
So this can be, and it's itusually starts if you're like,
well, how do I like?
I don't know the CEO of thesecompanies.
Go into the community and startbeing helpful and it will get
noticed.
Um, a couple communities thatI've seen um that are just like
just phenomenal in their design.
(23:13):
They probably they're so big andmature that they they probably
touch elements of all four ofthese communities, but I would
like properly place them in thiscategory.
So the HubSpot community, soteaching people how to do
outbound marketing and the Etsycommunity for sellers teaches
people how to run Etsybusinesses successfully on their
(23:34):
platform.
All right, let's move into Ilove them all for different
reasons.
It's like it's like your fourchildren that you can't quite
choose between.
Is that feel sometimes?
But I really do have a sweetspot for transformative
communities.
So transformative communities iswhere communal learning is the
(23:55):
product or the business.
So these look like groupprograms, cohort-based
communities can tend to be here.
You can also have evergreenmembership transformative
communities.
Like you can, like the structureand the cadence of like um
either it being time-bound oralways open is not exclusive to
(24:19):
any one of these types ofcommunities.
But I have noticed that becauseof the nature of a
transformative community, again,we're going from point A to
point B, they tend to have moreof a time constraint around
them, which can really work totheir advantage.
Okay, so some of the strengthsof these communities.
Remember, education, these tendto be for beginners.
(24:41):
So they are in a lot of wayseasier to market because there's
a very clear outcome, very cleartransformation, and a very clear
value proposition, especiallywhen the community is centered
around um improving or umtransforming your business
outcomes.
That's that becomes an easierinvestment.
(25:03):
Um, like more like lifestyle andhobbyist communities can tend
can struggle to monetize becausethere's not as like distinct and
um visceral of a valueproposition, but they still they
still can do great.
I had a client who we built aum, they they make they teach
(25:24):
women how to make um customsewing, custom bras, and it was
called bra sewing bee.
And I mean, it was like they hadlike 600 members.
It was wild.
Um, these communities are themost willing to adopt new
technology.
So because it's paid, they havemore skin in the game, and
(25:46):
because it's education-centric,it's kind of like saying, like,
okay, we're going on the grouproad trip from point A to point
B.
We will be getting in this bus.
Even if you don't like this bus,if you want to get to point B,
you will get on the bus.
So they're just like, okay,fine.
Even if they even if they hatethe bus, they're like, okay,
fine, we have to get on the bus,whatever, we'll do, we'll deal
(26:08):
with it.
So this is really whereall-in-one community platforms,
which I kind of specialize in,this is the group that they
targeted because this is thegroup that's most willing to
adopt that new technology andovercome any friction that comes
with it.
These are also the easiest tocalculate the ROI and they're
(26:29):
paid.
So there's like a bottom linethat comes with the community
and the impact.
Now, challenges with thesecommunities.
The value of the community tendsto be centered on the teacher,
the educator, the creator, andthe curriculum.
So if you want to start movingtowards creating an offer that
(26:52):
is not completely dependent onyou and your delivery, this type
of community doesn't necessarilyget you there.
It definitely paves the way foryou to start introducing
connection as a value for yourmembers, but it also tends to
keep people a little bitdependent on you to like kind of
(27:16):
feed them the content and thenand the information.
Onboarding for members is soimportant, no matter what
(27:36):
community you have.
But I found in this communityspecifically, posturing them to
see the value in the connectionelements of the community is
really critical.
These communities tend to livein, like I mentioned, the
all-in-one community platforms.
And we're seeing like a lot ofuh course creators who I would
(28:02):
say like they didn't start witha community, but they created a
course, an educational program.
And what we're seeing is they'verealized, oh, this is like way
less effective when people arelearning in individual silos and
more effective when they're in agroup.
(28:22):
These people are trying, coursecreators are trying to move into
transformative communities.
Um, you'll see you've seen likewe've seen a big migration
there.
So, some examples of platforms.
Um, we like to work with umcircle and heartbeat, um, mighty
networks, even our clients useschool and swarm.
There's a bunch out there.
(28:43):
You can quiz me on them all.
We have I have a communityplatform comparison uh video
playlist for anybody who wantsto get really in the weeds about
um nerdy community platformtech.
SPEAKER_02 (28:56):
I got in the weeds with that when I was figuring
out where to have mine.
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (29:00):
I think is that part of how we got connected?
Or am I?
SPEAKER_02 (29:04):
Yeah, no, that is exactly how we got connected.
Because I you sent me an articlewhen I was trying to figure out
where to put my community and Istarted binging your content.
SPEAKER_00 (29:16):
Oh my gosh, I love it.
We've that's even that's been awhile now.
So it's even leveled up sinceoh, that's amazing.
Um, Sarah, do any do anytransformative communities come
to mind for you?
SPEAKER_02 (29:30):
Mine.
Yes, I have that right there.
There we go.
Yes, definitely education based.
SPEAKER_00 (29:41):
Yeah.
Yep.
I put tiny marketing here as aprime example.
Um, it is an education mecca forall things tiny marketing, and
I'm a huge fan.
Um a few others that I'veexperienced as well.
Seth Godin's Alt MBA program.
Seth Godin's known as like themarketing guy, but I really
(30:02):
consider him the originalcommunity guy too.
Um, and one of the ways thatthis was manifested was through
the Alt MBA um program.
It's like three months.
Truly one of the mosttransformative experiences of my
life, completely online withcomplete strangers.
(30:22):
Like what they designed andbuilt there was incredible.
Um, so Akimbo is like theorganization that ran Alt MBA.
And I actually have an episodewith the CEO of Akimbo.
Her name's Marie Shott.
And um, the way she thinks aboutcommunity is fascinating.
So that's uh, I think it's likeepisode two of Deer Bree for
(30:43):
anybody who wants a deeper diveon that one.
And um, Jay Klaus's The Lab isalso another one that I haven't
been a part of, but I've heardreally great things.
Okay.
Um, let's move into Nexuscommunities.
So this is where the connectionsbetween your members is the
(31:04):
product or the business.
So Nexus means a connection or aseries of connections linking
two or more things.
So what this looks like is a lotof memberships will typically
fall into this Nexuscommunities.
Again, like just because it's amembership doesn't mean it's
connection-centric.
You can have likeeducation-centric memberships,
(31:24):
but they they tend to fall intothis category.
Networking groups, associations.
These the the strengths of thisof the Nexus communities are
they are the stickiest.
So people are here for eachother.
As the owner or like founder ofone of these communities,
(31:46):
they're incredibly valuablebecause all of the value is
being created.
Not all of the value, but you'reyou're essentially designing an
environment where the value ofthe experience comes from your
members and their interactions.
So they're incredibly valuable.
It's also easy to calculate thevalue for the business because
(32:08):
they're paid.
So some of the challenges withthese communities, it's
difficult to track the outcomesand results for members.
It's also um, it's common formembers to get in and have
unarticulated expectations forwhat they want out of the
community, but they don't evennecessarily know like why
(32:30):
they're there or what liketransformation or outcome they
want because it's they're kindof slippery.
Like it just feels kind of likesit the value comes in kind of a
serendipitous way.
And so I've found that communitybuilders who have this type of
community really struggle toguide their members to see the
(32:51):
transformation that happensbecause they think the
transformation is the they thinkconnection is the outcome.
But connection is not anoutcome.
Connection connection is avehicle to some other outcome.
So for these communities, wereally focus on articulating,
even though there's not thatlinear education journey, what
(33:12):
is the transformation and whatis the impact of the community?
And we really have to promptyour members to think about it
and reflect on it because theycan um really easily just like
kind of check out if they don'tfeel like they're getting the
value, but they were neverprompted to actually like
thoughtfully consider what thevalue is and why they're
(33:34):
joining.
SPEAKER_02 (33:35):
If that makes sense, yeah, that makes sense.
So though I'm in a lot of thosepaid connection type of
communities, and I'm real fastto turn.
Like if the onboarding isconfusing, like no, if I didn't
find the right connections, likelike true relationships with
people, no, I'm out.
(33:56):
Yes, I find that those, and thismight just be me and my own
shortcomings, those would be thehardest for me to be able to run
because it's really hard tofigure out, yeah, one, what
outcome do they want, truly?
But two, how do you make surethat the connections keep
(34:17):
connecting that people areengaging?
SPEAKER_00 (34:20):
Yes, 100%.
And this one feels the mostmysterious to people.
Like it's kind of like we allknow what a good one feels like,
but articulating how we gotthere is the next impossible,
other than people being like, Idon't know, I just have great
members.
Yeah.
But there are very specific andintentional design choices that
(34:41):
led to those outcomes.
And that's part of what that'spart of what I help people
understand.
SPEAKER_02 (34:47):
Good thing you understand.
I have been a part of a lot ofthem.
And the one like the ones that Ihave loved the most, people have
told me you have to join thisone.
Yes.
So it has always come to methrough referral.
Exactly.
SPEAKER_00 (35:03):
Yeah.
And it's why they're so strong.
It's kind of like umtransformative communities
versus Nexus communities.
It's kind of like transformativecommunities are like skiing,
like it's easier to get like upand running, but then it's a lot
harder to like perfect.
Yeah.
And then Nexus communities arekind of like snowboarding, where
it's like a lot harder to likelearn and like get the momentum
(35:25):
up front.
But once you do, it's like a loteasier to like um kind of get
really, really good at it.
Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_02 (35:33):
Yeah.
So there has like at least howI'm interpreting that is there
has to be a good on-ramp thatgets people to where they need
to be to be able to get in thereand see the true value.
We have a question too fromJennifer.
Are Nexus communities focused onmentorship programs, for
example?
SPEAKER_00 (35:53):
Yeah, they can be.
A mentorship program is a greatexample of a Nexus community.
Yeah, that's a great one.
Um, moving through some of theseother challenges, these are
these communities are lesswilling to adopt new technology
unless they know the group isworth it.
And once the group is worth it,they are usually trying to get
(36:17):
off of the social network.
It's really funny.
It's kind of this like paradoxthat happens for these
communities where they to getthe momentum, they often will
have to start somewhere wheretheir members are already
existing.
But then once the group becomesreally valuable, people are
like, oh, this platform's liketoo noisy.
I'm only here for this group.
(36:39):
And I wish this group, like Iwould follow this group
anywhere.
But it like, it's it's this likereally weird, mushy thing to
figure out the timing of it.
But yeah, these communities,once they once they hit their
stride, they're like, how do weget off of this social network?
Yeah, that makes sense.
SPEAKER_02 (36:55):
I there's a couple that I'm part of, like I'm part
of a coaching group, and theircommunity is on Facebook.
I'm like, I don't even have aFacebook account.
What?
Exactly.
SPEAKER_00 (37:08):
Exactly.
Yes.
And this is where like I think alot of um, I think Facebook is
writing Nexus communities andlike some Agora communities that
are just, I mean, just ingeneral, the connection-centric
communities are that live onFacebook.
I think Facebook is getting somuch more from those communities
than those communities aregetting from Facebook.
(37:30):
But that's just my humbleopinion.
Um, so these ones, they tend toum, I mentioned they tend to
live where the members arealready interacting, but then
they want to migrate.
So you'll find them in Slack,maybe WhatsApp groups.
Um, more and more they arestarting to build an all-in-one
community platforms as thegeneral public becomes
(37:52):
habituated to these platformsand more familiar with them.
Um, you mentioned a few Nexuscommunities that you've been a
part of, Sarah.
Any others that come to mind tohighlight?
SPEAKER_02 (38:03):
Old Girls Club is my favorite one.
That one's you're in that onetoo.
There it is.
There it is.
Yes.
Um, I've been in ProsperNetwork.
Um Entrepreneista is anotherone.
Honestly, there's so many.
I could probably like go throughthis shit's creek list that I
(38:28):
have.
SPEAKER_00 (38:30):
Yeah, find even more.
No, there's so many.
Um then there's like a bunch,uh, led by community is one, and
then um one that I did aninterview with was called Porch
Canada, and they're a communityfor immigrant entrepreneurs in
Canada.
Uh, they're hosted on Slack.
SPEAKER_02 (38:51):
And Port Fest is the thing that came into my mind.
SPEAKER_00 (38:54):
Oh, oh, what's that?
SPEAKER_02 (38:57):
Um, it is concerts that happen in neighborhoods, so
the stages are people's porches.
SPEAKER_00 (39:03):
Oh, yes, we had something like that in Portland
too.
Okay.
Great example.
All right.
So these are the four Agoracommunities, nurturing,
transformative, and Nexus.
And what I want, if you're ifyou're tuning in with us, I want
you to observe which ones areyou drawn to today and why.
(39:26):
And has that changed over thelast five or 10 years?
For me, this has changed, but Idon't want to, I don't want to
like ruin the reflection forfolks.
Sarah, do you have an intuitionon?
I mean, you you kind ofmentioned it, but anything
that's coming up for you?
SPEAKER_02 (39:45):
Uh yeah, I was actually just typing it to put
it in the chat, but I am allover the Nexus communities
because it gets me in the rightrooms.
Yes.
And if there is something thatI'm wanting to learn, I prefer
the transformative communities.
Like I want to pay to be able tohave like the community aspect
(40:08):
of it.
So I'm learning with people, butlike a location where and an
outcome that I'm going to begetting.
So I prefer paid over free forthose reasons, but Nexus has
become more and more importantas I'm growing my business.
SPEAKER_00 (40:24):
Yes.
And would you say that theperson who you serve in your
business tends to be someonewho's like more mature in their
business evolution?
SPEAKER_02 (40:34):
I would say no.
I would say that they areprobably in like the one and a
half to three year range wherethey're just getting their their
footing in in building out theirbusiness.
SPEAKER_00 (40:49):
Yeah.
Okay.
Okay.
That's fascinating.
SPEAKER_02 (40:53):
Yeah, that's a transformative.
So it would make sense.
SPEAKER_00 (40:57):
But it's also it makes sense that you're in the
Nexus community looking to bringthem into your transformative
community because going intoanother transformative community
to bring them into yourtransformative community is a
little too.
Well, it's just a little liketransformative communities
aren't necessarily a great, theycan be you, they can lead to
(41:21):
great connections and evenbusiness, but um it's just a
little bit more of an awkwardtransition, I would say.
SPEAKER_02 (41:30):
Yeah.
I like them when we're alltrying to get to the same
outcome.
Like and we're learning fromeach other and sharing our wins
and how we actually got thosewins when we're all trying to
get the same one.
SPEAKER_00 (41:43):
Exactly.
And people don't necessarilywant to be sold on other
solutions when they're on thatlearning journey.
They're like, I'm focused on I'mfocused on this learning
journey.
Let me just do this first.
SPEAKER_02 (41:54):
We've got these blinders on.
SPEAKER_00 (41:56):
Yes, exactly.
But if you can also find andcollaborate with other
transformative communities thatare serving your same client but
in a different transformationjourney, that can also be a
really good sweet spot forpartnership and collaboration.
SPEAKER_02 (42:10):
Yes.
I've been thinking about that somuch.
Like, let me bring in othertransformative communities and
create like a co-author withthem.
SPEAKER_00 (42:18):
Yes.
Yes, 100%.
Yep.
Beautiful.
Excuse me.
So something I've given thistalk for like a couple years
now, and I love seeing how umpeople's responses have evolved
and noticing that transform thatthat difference.
(42:39):
One of the things that I'venoticed by and large is that
people have moved on thismatrix.
There's been a big migrationfrom free to paid.
And I contribute this to acouple of things.
One, it's kind of like where wewere with apps on your phone
(42:59):
when the like the first 10 yearsof the iPhone.
You remember, like, if if youcame across like a paid app, it
was kind of like laughable andinsulting, like, oh sweet summer
child, who do you think you aremaking me pay for an app?
And then somehow along the way,that user behavior changed.
And now I dare you to go intoyour phone and look at like how
(43:21):
many subscriptions you'veforgotten about that you signed
up for.
And it's because we realizedfree doesn't also necessarily
mean better.
It usually means clunkier,buggier.
I might have to like siftthrough ads or sift through a
lot of information that I don'tneed to find what I do need.
And so little by little overtime, we became more willing to
(43:43):
accept a paid experience,knowing that it was going to be
what we needed.
And communities are really inthe same evolution.
And I've noticed it as we'velike, you're like, okay, I could
find a free Facebook groupversion of this where I have to
wade through lots of informationand things that don't really
pertain to me, or I can pay evenjust a small amount to know that
(44:07):
I'm in the right, um, the rightspace with the right people
learning the right information.
So just an interesting thing toobserve.
Maybe that's true for you, maybeit's not.
I also like kind of swing backto nurturing communities every
like six months or so.
So they each have their ownplace in um, they each have
(44:28):
their own value.
It just depends on what you needand what you're looking for.
SPEAKER_02 (44:31):
Yeah, and nurturing communities makes sense for you
because of what you do.
Your people are going to bethere.
Yes.
Yes, 100%.
100%.
SPEAKER_00 (44:41):
And it's it's interesting to observe too, like
often if you're looking to builda community, observing the
community that you are drawn toas a member can be one of the
indicators of like noticing whatyou're drawn to and why, and how
that might relate to your owncommunity if you're looking to.
build one.
I also encourage people toconsider.
(45:03):
So this this is like one ofthree categories that we look
for alignment in to know thatbuilding a community is the
right, this is the right timefor you to build a community.
So this identifying your typealigns um the your community
with your business model.
So once we've got thisalignment, the next thing is
(45:26):
does building a community alignwith you and the type of work
that you want to do?
And the best question to startwith is are you an educator or
are you a connector?
Do you love teaching people,guiding them, kind of being a
little bit of being the educatorcan be a little bit of a savior,
savior complex too.
(45:47):
So if that's you, just like behonest about it.
And then some people likethey're like I don't want that.
I don't want to like I don'twant to have to walk guide
people through this.
I just want to create the spacewhere they go and play.
So that's kind of that's thenext area of alignment.
Then there's a third one butwe'll save that for a podcast
episode later.
Make sure you follow Dear Brieon YouTube.
(46:07):
Do we get a question?
SPEAKER_02 (46:09):
She was talking about how bad Facebook groups
are no question just agreeingwith you that Facebook groups
are throwing here I'll pull itback up.
SPEAKER_00 (46:21):
Just the Facebook teardown.
Yeah we've all it's come andgone you know we don't need to
just yeah uh okay oh yeah oh mygosh no it's the same one I just
tried to done and it doubled alot of lot of hatred for
Facebook coming in no kiddingall right um so okay I want to
(46:45):
talk through a couple myths herebut really quick before I do
that I do have a free umcommunity launch and transition
roadmap so if you're consideringlaunching a community this will
this will give you the basis forthe five milestones that you
need to consider and each of thequestions and stepping stones
along the way for each of thosemilestones.
(47:05):
So if you want to get this makesure you can sign up for the new
you can get it when you sign upfor the newsletter.
And I'll include the link thereto our form and something we
have coming up soon in um thatyou'll see coming to the
newsletter is we have a reallyfun program called Couch to
(47:26):
Connection.
And I joke that it's like Couchto 5K but less sweaty and way
more fun because I hate running.
But it's basically designed tolike get you off your butt and
into connection if community hasbeen something that you've been
considering but just not surehow to take those steps.
So you can join join the list toget the updates on when Couch to
(47:48):
Connection is coming and we'redoing it in partnership with
Heartbeat, the communityplatform.
So they're going to be hostingit with us and it's gonna be a
blast so keep an eye out.
SPEAKER_02 (47:57):
So it's like a boot camp.
SPEAKER_00 (47:58):
Yeah yep three day boot camp three days of
workshops um yeah it's gonna bea blast awesome okay let's move
do we have some time to moveinto two myths yep okay we have
10 minutes I'm looking for anewsletter so I can put it in
the chat.
Oh great thank you all right sothis is the very first the first
(48:20):
myth is my community will besuccessful with an even
distribution of education andconnection.
I have kind of a mean trick thatI play my clients when I'm like
education to connection let'sthink about it like a ratio um
we know what percentage of yourcommunity is going to be
education centric and then whatpercentage is going to be
connection centric.
(48:42):
And they'll um the ones who arereally trying to find the right
answer will be like 5050 I'mlike that's the only wrong
answer.
So why it's not actually thewrong answer but it it is if
you're starting your communitybecause what happens when you
when you say well Brie, I wantit all I want all of the
(49:02):
strengths and all of the pros ofall of these communities when
you put yourself on this linehere not only are you also
signing up for all of thechallenges what ends up
happening is you will build notjust one but two communities
because again education tends toserve your beginners and
(49:24):
connection tends to serve yourmore mature members.
So now we have two differentgoals we have two different
people coming into yourcommunity who need two different
things and even though there'ssome overlap like in the Venn
diagram of these folks there'sthere's some overlap you will
find your focus and yourprioritization for your
community completely at war anddivided it's also a lot more
(49:48):
difficult to articulate thevalue proposition of your
community and for your membersto understand if it's for them.
So if you're just starting outthere's no reason your community
can't evolve and mature intoholding both of these categories
but in the beginning pick theone that feels the most aligned
(50:14):
with you and with your businessum that's like the number one
number one thing that I see umdid this did you come up against
this at all Sarah or like haveyou seen this or felt this?
SPEAKER_02 (50:29):
Absolutely um oh tell me more asking yeah um so
it's education first in mycommunity but I kept thinking
that I needed to have thatconnection piece of it and I
think that I've talked to youabout this before my it was
originally called Tiny MarketingClub and I was like the word
(50:52):
club makes it seem like this isa connection community.
SPEAKER_00 (50:57):
So I changed it to booked out in six so it was more
clear that this is an educationcommunity and now I only focus
on sharing our wins instead ofhaving constant yeah connection
between people it is reallyreally hard I don't even know if
it's possible to do both I Ihave not found it yeah yeah it I
(51:19):
mean it it takes a lot it reallydoes um and and some people will
say like I want to bring peoplein in education and then I want
them to like progress toconnection and it's not
impossible to do what isrequired for that type of setup
(51:43):
is an audience it like anaudience building mechanism like
you you need a very big audienceto bring in enough people where
there are is like a criticalmass for both of those offers.
And what I've found actuallyhappens more often than not is
we'll start with education,we'll move people into
(52:04):
connection but you don't haveenough members consistently
flowing into your community thatthe people who you brought into
connection or brought in througheducation they kind of like
you'll bring in like a a spurtof them like they'll there'll be
like a group of them theyprogress together to connection
(52:24):
but your your flow and yourfunnel kind of like lags a
little bit and then and thenyou'll have a new group come in
or like they'll trickle in andnow you have people like like
you've got like one person hereone person here one person here
and then a group here and itsucks because then you stop
marketing your community becauseyou're like this feels like a
(52:46):
cluster.
SPEAKER_02 (52:47):
Yeah it's disconnected I was part of a
community like exactly like whatyou were talking about where it
was education first.
We all came for the same outcomebut they had this community
element and there was clicks.
SPEAKER_00 (53:01):
It ended up being clicks based off of when you
came in yes yes totally totallywhich like there's some
solidarity there that can workbut really like if you're gonna
do the education to connectionflow you got to have like your
audience building and your andyour um marketing funnels on
lock like they have to be realtight.
(53:24):
So I I'm so guilty of this umyou could like you could track
the evolution of the Embercommunity through the through
the cycles and seasons of thismatrix.
But that's part of like uhthat's what I love about
community is like the nature ofit is to change and to evolve
and your members needs changeand evolve.
(53:44):
And sometimes you decide theyreally the community purpose is
here for this very specific timeand place in someone's journey.
And then other times you havethe capacity and capability to
expand your container to holdmore of what they need.
But it it really depends.
SPEAKER_02 (54:04):
Yeah I want to highlight what you said just
there because I have been partof experiences where community
was only for a short livedperiod and it was intentional
where like a for example youwere just talking about your
boot camp where that's going onor um a summit.
(54:25):
So there's a community going onwith the summit but it's only
like five days long where you'regoing through the same thing at
the same time.
SPEAKER_00 (54:33):
Mm-hmm that's one of the so I shared about the Alt
MBA and I've when I talked toMarie like one of the things
that I can't remember if wetalked about the episode or if
it was kind of offline but shewas like people it was like the
number one thing people alwaysasked us was like please give us
a place where we can stayconnected and like after this
(54:56):
experience because theexperience itself was so
transformative and people werelike like craving more of that
and they absolutely refused todo that.
And it was part of theirstrategy where they were like
what makes this so powerful isthat it ends.
(55:17):
And that's a necessary tensionthat we are willing to hold.
They like they refused to createa connection centric space where
people could just kind of liveand be and they kept it so tight
with that educational programand like refused to budge.
SPEAKER_02 (55:34):
And I I have so much respect for that because I think
it actually made it like all themore powerful people were like
well frick if I want thatexperience again I have to just
pay to do the program again thatmakes so much sense too because
you like if something goes onforever you lose your interest
if you only have access to itfor a short period of time
(55:55):
you're in you're invested.
SPEAKER_00 (55:57):
Exactly exactly so you start to see like the play
between these two things and itcan be really tempting to be
like well I want both I wantlike a really impactful
transformative experience andthen I want the recurring
revenue of the connectionexperience.
Yeah you kind of have to pickone and pick one and hold
yourself there until you feellike you've really nailed it
(56:17):
because that's the other likebig mistake I see is people will
start in one and when they can'twhen they don't feel like
they've got it they'll they'lljust like quickly add another
and they'll be like maybe we gotit wrong.
Maybe we need to do more and I'mlike do not do more it will only
shoot you in the foot.
Okay real quick I want to moveto the next myth and this is the
(56:38):
free to paid pipeline myth.
So I don't have to have time tobust the freemium myth in its
entirety today but I do have afollow-up dear Bree podcast
episode about this that I willlink to called Top Mistakes to
avoid in setting up anall-in-one community platform
but actually starts with thisfreemium exploration.
(57:01):
So um this myth is basicallythat a free community is an
effective pipeline to your paidcommunity this does not work for
a lot of reasons that I go intodepth on in the episode.
And then I also have a real lifeexample in another episode with
Ali Ball she talks about she hadlike a paid um a paid community
(57:24):
program and she launched a freeFacebook group to lead to the
paid group and you can hearexactly how that played out
because it's so reflective ofwhat actually happens here.
SPEAKER_02 (57:37):
But the TLDR is it doesn't work pick one and stick
with it until you nail it I'vebeen part of communities that
were free and transition to paidand they did always end up like
disasters.
SPEAKER_00 (57:52):
It's really hard actually I have another episode
from Evan Hamilton's like thedirector of community at HubSpot
and he gives a really greatsynopsis of like if you are
trying to transition so this islike this is when it's like you
have both a free and a paid andyou're like the free one will
lead to the paid one thatdoesn't work.
(58:13):
A lot of times you will havefree communities that after a
period of time are like oh craphow do we monetize this and then
they need they try to transitionto paid and that's a different
um can also is also rife withchallenges but this episode with
Evan Hamilton um he gives likean overview of like what your
options are and how tofacilitate that transition um
(58:35):
more gracefully.
SPEAKER_02 (58:36):
And just an FYI this QR code that's at the top is
your newsletter.
SPEAKER_00 (58:40):
Oh amazing thank you that's fantastic all right um
I'm open for questions I knowwe've got like another minute
here but um thank you guys forhaving me this was so I I get so
nerdy about it I'm alreadysweating a little bit so this
was fun for me I'm just gonnapop some of the comments on
while we wrap up oh okay leaningtry I think I'm trying to do
(59:07):
5050 but I lean higher towardsconnection and that's what
people in my group find as thebest part of the career club.
SPEAKER_02 (59:14):
Oh I'd be so curious to hear how how this talk
impacted you thinking about the5050 and if there were any
takeaways you had from that yeahNick if you're still here feel
free to let us know um let's seewe also got this yeah that's so
(59:36):
good yeah that transition fromAgora nurturing to
transformative communitiesyou're you're not alone in that
a lot of folks feel that wayyeah I think that the
consultants that arespecializing in a specific thing
where they have a software theyhave they need to take advantage
(59:57):
of these so you don't need toown it just be in them.
Yes yep absolutely okay we areat time so we should wrap up um
thank you so much for joining metoday this was amazing if this
episode made things feel alittle more doable I'd love to
(01:00:17):
help you take the next step withthe booked out blueprint.
It's a practical low pressuresession to clarify your offers,
your marketing and what actuallymoves the needle.
You can book yours through thelink in the show notes.
You don't have to figure it outalone
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