Beyond the Line with Sheryl Daija

This episode features Sheryl Daija, founder and CEO of Bridge, a global trade organization transforming how marketing, media, and technology industries approach inclusion. Sheryl's journey began in apartheid-era South Africa, profoundly shaping her lifelong commitment to equality. She leads Bridge in turning inclusion from a buzzword into a strategic business driver, creating IMAX (Inclusive Marketing Advantage Index) - the first operating system enabling executives to measure inclusion maturity across their business to unlock trust, relevance, and competitive advantage.

Key Takeaways:

• From Moral to Business Imperative
• Building WITH Culture, Not FOR Culture
• Operationalizing Inclusion
• Inclusion as Competitive Advantage
• Everyone's Responsibility
• AI and Systemic Bias

Chapters:

• 00:00:00 - Introduction to Sheryl Daija
• 00:05:30 - From Apartheid to Activism
• 00:12:15 - The Business Case for Inclusion
• 00:18:45 - Uncomfortable Stretch and Real Progress
• 00:24:30 - Introducing IMAX Framework
• 00:32:10 - Building WITH Culture vs FOR Culture
• 00:41:20 - The Unpaid DEI Labor Problem
• 00:48:55 - What Keeps Leaders from Acting
• 00:56:40 - The Walmart Juneteenth Ice Cream Moment
• 01:04:15 - AI's Inclusion Crisis
• 01:10:30 - Hope and Action Moving Forward

Comparative Analysis:

What Works: Integrated Inclusion

• Embedding inclusion in product development from the start
• Measuring inclusion as a brand metric with clear KPIs
• Building diverse teams that represent communities you serve
• Tying inclusion efforts directly to business outcomes
• Applying the same rigor to inclusion as other business practices
• Making inclusion everyone's responsibility across all roles

What Doesn't Work: Performative Inclusion

• Surface-level diversity initiatives without structural change
• Focusing only on hiring percentages and diverse slates
• Treating inclusion as separate from core business strategy
• Relying on good intentions without behavioral change
• Asking underrepresented employees to lead DEI as unpaid labor
• Going silent on values during challenging political moments

Guest Info:

Sheryl Daija Founder & CEO of Bridge - Former Chief Strategy Officer at Mobile Marketing Association. Sheryl grew up in apartheid-era South Africa and is now based in San Diego, leading the transformation of how marketing, media, and technology industries approach inclusion through measurable business strategies.

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sheryldaija/
Website: http://www.wearebridge.com/

Quotes:

"You treasure what you measure. Inclusion needs to become a brand metric, something that is measurable and tied to business outcomes."- Sheryl Daija

"Stretching beyond your comfort zone isn’t just about leadership—it’s about building a community where growth, courage, and connection empower everyone to make real change."- Amy Vaughan

Links & Resources from This Episode

We mention a few great events and resources during the conversation. There’s a free live event in NYC on Thursday, February 12th called The System for Inclusive Growth Roadshow, with more cities coming in 2026. 

Register here: https://wearebridge.com/sig-roadshow 

We also talk about:

BRIDGE26: https://wearebridge.com/bridge26
Project Forward: https://wearebridge.com/project-forward

Support the show

Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_00 (00:09):
Hello everyone and welcome to our weekly power
lounge.
This is your place to hearauthentic conversations from
those who have power to share.
My name is Amy Vaughn, and I amthe owner and chief empowerment
officer at Together Digital, adiverse and collaborative
community of women who work indigital and choose to share
their knowledge, power, andconnection.
You can join the movement atTogetherIndigital.com.

(00:32):
And today we're diving into aconversation that goes beyond
comfortable platitudes and intothe real work of inclusive
leadership.
I am thrilled to welcome CherylDeja, founder and CEO of Bridge,
a leader who is turninginclusion from a buzzword into a
strategic business driver.
I had the pleasure of meetingCheryl at last year's Onto

(00:53):
Market World.
Yes.
Where she was on stage and spokeand was very, very impressed
with the work that you're doing.
And, you know, like you said,going, like I said, going beyond
the platitudes is so important.
Cheryl's journey began in aparking area in South Africa, an
experience that profoundlyshaped her lifelong commitment

(01:15):
to equality and doing theuncomfortable work that real
progress demands.
Now she is based in what I hopeis sunny San Diego, because I'm
in freezing Ohio, where she isleading BRIGE, the independent
global trade organization thatis transforming how marketing,
media, and technology industriesapproach inclusion.
Her leadership at Bridge createdIMAX, the Inclusive Marketing

(01:39):
Advantage Index, the firstoperating system that enables
executives to actually measurethe mature and mature and
inclusion across their businessto unlock trust, relevance, and
competitive advantage.
What sets Cheryl apart isn'tjust her powerful origin story
or her impressive credentials asthought a leadership and

(02:00):
strategist.
It's her refusal to acceptsurface-level DEI conversations.
We are here for that.
So she is here to talk aboutoperating, operationalizing
inclusion, sketch stretchingbeyond our comfort zones and
understanding that trueleadership requires clarity,
courage, and conviction.
Welcome to the Power Lounge,Cheryl.

SPEAKER_01 (02:21):
Thank you so much for having me, Amy.
I appreciate it.
That was quite the introduction.
I know, right?
I hope to be able to live up toit.

SPEAKER_00 (02:29):
You absolutely will.
You absolutely will.
So your story starts in SouthAfrica.
How did that experience shapenot just your commitment to
equality, as I stated in theintro, but specifically your
approach to making inclusion ameasurable business strategy
rather than a moral imperative?

SPEAKER_01 (02:47):
Yeah, so um, yeah, you know, certainly interesting
times right now, um, and theparallels obviously between
South Africa are um kind ofstark and scary.
Um, but I did grow up um underuh the apartheid regime in South
Africa.
Um, and a very at a very earlyage I kind of recognized what it

(03:09):
meant to live at the expense ofan entire nation.
Obviously, uh, you know, we wereuh, I don't think privilege
quite captures how we lived.
Um and you know, that spurred mypersonal commitment to social
justice.
It was not easy.
I was I was I was very young, Imean I was still at school.
Um, and it was not easy to be anactivist, honestly, in South

(03:31):
Africa, and and uh, you know,people would be kind of, you
know, people would disappear.
They would disappear people alot.
Um, and so, you know, uh you hadto find ways, right, to uh to
change, uh to make change and uhto um understand really, you
know, kind of the complexity ofwhat was going on in that time.

(03:54):
Um I had the privilege ofleaving South Africa um because
I did not want to live under uhthose conditions, and I did not
realize when I left what aprivilege it was that I was able
to leave, right?
Only kind of um after doing myown work did I, you know, kind
of uh really understand theprivilege of being able to
leave.
Um, you know, come in and Ithought I'd come to this country

(04:17):
and see something verydifferent, and obviously it was
different.
Um it was not the law of theland.
You know, when I arrived, um uhsegregation was, you know, kind
of over.
Um but uh there's you know,there's obviously been a lot of,
you know, there continues to bea lot of inequity um and
inequality in this country, um,and you know, especially now.

(04:40):
So uh so that coupled, I think,with the fact that I am part of
a multiracial family and I'vechosen to see the world through
my son's eyes, um, has reallychallenged me to understand um
what uh the way that we can dothis work um and be successful
at doing the work.

(05:01):
And I believe that the way thatwe can do the work and be
successful at doing the work isnot um is not grounding it in
the moral imperative, it'sgrounding it in the business
imperative.
Um at the end of the day,companies need to make, you
know, need to make money,they're focused on growth.
Um I believe inclusion istransformational for that
growth.
And so um uh so that kind ofgives us a you know a business

(05:26):
grounding um to drive inclusionas a uh as a way, as a
capability, right?
Um and and operationalizing itacross the the business because
the opportunity is huge.
And so if we can you know changethe narrative around it, um we
can kind of get back to the workat hand, I think.

SPEAKER_00 (05:46):
Yeah, yeah, I like I understand what you're saying
exactly, because we can say somuch about the platitudes, and
there's a lot of people who'vekind of ridden that coattails of
like performative allyship andthings like that.
But when you're talking tobusiness, it's not that personal
endeavor.
It's like, what are the businesscases?
What are the business needs orobjectives?

(06:06):
And it feels kind of cold andinhuman, but at the same time,
such as business in a lot ofways, right?

SPEAKER_01 (06:12):
Yeah.
I mean, listen, I don't wanna Idon't wanna uh pretend that I
don't believe it's a moralimperative because I absolutely
do.
Um I just don't think that themoral imperative always wins.
Um and and you know, um, inorder for it to become a um a
practice within organizations,we have to apply the same rigor
to it as we would to any otherpractice that we do.

(06:34):
And so I think that's ouropportunity and advantage is how
do we, you know, at the end ofthe day, for me, it's the work
gets done.
Um, you know, whether it's amoral or business side, I don't
really care.
I just want to make sure thatthe work gets done because the
end result, right, is the samething.

SPEAKER_00 (06:51):
So winning all around in that case.
So you said that only realprogress happens when we get
stretched beyond our comfort.
Talking in a business sense,talking about executives, you
know, that can be a little bitof a challenge.
So, what does that work, thatuncomfortable stretch, actually
look like in practice?
And why do so many leaders kindof stop short of it?

SPEAKER_01 (07:12):
Yeah.
Um, you know, I think for me,uncomfortable stretch is when
you change where power and moneyactually move, not just
language, right?
And so certainly, you know, thelanguage of DI has been
attacked.
I've I've often said you cancall a purple butterfly, it
doesn't matter as long as thework gets done, right?
So we have to we have to reallythink about how do we change

(07:34):
where the power and the moneymove, right?
Not just the language.
So that's kind of the firstthing.
And you know, when I uh when Iwas looking at the questions,
obviously I was thinking, youknow, I wanted to, I it was
interesting because my workexperience, right?
I was um I was uh the chiefstrategy officer at the at the

(07:54):
MMA, which was the MobileMarketing Association, um, and I
remember so vividly how you knowconsumers had already moved to
mobile, but brands kept oninvesting in what fit their kind
of legacy models, right?
What was in their marketing mixmodels.
It felt safer.
Um no one got fired, right, forsticking with what they knew.
Um and so it was, you know, eventhough it was incredibly

(08:18):
frustrating for us because wewere like, all of your consumers
are over here, why are youspending money over there?
Um it took, you know, researchand ROI and um, you know,
advertising effectivenessstudies and all of those things,
right?
That kind of was applying therigor, right, to that that

(08:40):
moment and to that business.
Um, it wasn't enough that theconsumers were where they were.
Um, and so, you know, I thinkthat fundamentally CEOs and
brands are kind of tried andtrue.
Um and so we have to figure outhow do we break through with
that same kind of rigor, right?

(09:00):
Um uh the thing that I will say,you know, in the same way that
consumers were all on mobiledevices, I mean, we know despite
um the attempts or despite thethe wish that this wasn't the
case, uh the demographics areshifting, markets are shifting.
Um, and I do think that it'sgonna be really important for

(09:22):
companies to understand andstart internalizing that because
they will fade into irrelevanceif they don't.
I mean, I think that's thecautionary, you know, cautionary
tale, right?
So um so it's really about howcan you start to think about um
uh you know readying your yourorganization uh to um to be

(09:46):
ready for what the future isgonna hold.
Despite what the politics say,despite everything else, there's
just a reality.
Um, you know, we know that,right?
I mean, we we we see that Gen Zis the most multiracial.
I mean, I don't have to tellyou, right?
Most multiracial generation ofour time, et cetera, et cetera.
That is a reality.
So, you know.

SPEAKER_02 (10:05):
Yeah.

unknown (10:05):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (10:06):
And there's just a lot to like the organizational,
like, there's a lot toorganizational change and change
in general that like definitelystop people in their tracks when
it's like, you'll hear, we'vealways done it this way.
And when you ask to move moneyor change systems, it feels big
and it feels scary.
Um, and so that definitely canget you stuck.
But I think, like you're saying,the data is truly what's going

(10:27):
to help get them out of that rutand maybe that analysis,
paralysis, or fear of makingactionable change.
And I think, I think asconsumers too, it's been really
interesting to see how we aretrying to choose differently and
how and where and when we spendour money.
So that drives it even further,not enough for you to just like
post something about Facebookand Bitcha about it.
You need to actually like putyour money where your mouth is

(10:49):
too.
And then that will signal to thehigher ups that, you know,
there's got to be some changesthere as well.
Have you kind of seen that inlike any particular cases where
that's been effective?
I mean, I know sometimes we dolike today, it's supposed to be
a blackout day.
You know, we were just talkingabout that before we hopped on
here.
Are movements like this actuallymoving the needle and getting um

(11:11):
recognition at the top?

SPEAKER_01 (11:13):
I mean, I do think so, right?
We've seen that, you know, umcompanies that had this, you
know, kind of extremeovercorrection um at the
beginning of this new kind ofadministration, um, that their
uh their bottom line has beensignificantly impacted, right?
I mean, CEOs are in a difficultposition right now, but I
genuinely believe that if youknow you know what your values

(11:36):
are and you abide by thosevalues and you execute against
those values, uh, then um andand you uh are consistent with
what your internal values are,with your external
communications, um, then you'reyou know kind of in a pretty
good uh good spot to kind ofcontinue to do this work and and
move things forward.
Uh power does not sit only atthe top, right?

(12:00):
Power sits with each and everyone of us.
And I do think that we are atthe beginning of seeing the
impact of that power on theeconomy and on specific ways
that people are choosing tospend their money.
I do think that it's actuallykind of maybe even at this
inflection point, right?

(12:20):
Of, you know, if you if youlisten to, I don't know if you
listen to Scott Galloway, but ifyou listen to, you know, the way
Scott talks, uh, this is theinflection point of when that is
going to drive, I think, prettysignificant change.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (12:32):
I hope so.
Yeah, I agree.
Awesome.
Well, let's talk a little bitabout IMAX.
So bringing it back to like thework that's being done
internally, the inclusivemarketing advantage index.
For members who are, you know,have tried maybe or are tired of
like inclusion being treated asthis nice-to-have thing, how
does IMAX fundamentally changethe conversation in the C-suite?
Because there's a lot offrameworks out there, there's a

(12:53):
lot of ways to come at this.
How is this different?

SPEAKER_01 (12:56):
Yeah.
So, you know, I have a marketingbackground.
So for me, well, the thing that,you know, as we were kind of
thinking about what is ourmission, um, which is really
about how do you operationalizeinclusion as a business
practice, uh, you know, we'vekind of we've brought in the
learnings, as I said, we need toapply the same rigor to
inclusion as we do foreverything else that we're
doing.

(13:17):
And so we brought in a lot ofthe learnings from our business
experience into IMAX.
Uh and you know, you you youkind of uh you treasure what you
measure.
I we we have a board member,Yin, who always says that,
right?
Um and it's not it's actuallynot uh that you measure what you
treasure, you really shouldtreasure what you kind of
measure you can measure, right?

(13:37):
And so the the biggest umopportunity is how do we
actually turn inclusion into ametric, into a brand metric and
into something that ismeasurable?
And so um what we wanted to dowith IMAX, and we actually
collaborated with uh an academyteam from um a professor of
marketing from Emory University,um, University of Georgia and

(14:00):
Indiana University was tounderstand what are the
practices that contribute tobuilding more equity and
inclusion in the marketplace,right?
We've obviously had a lot offocus in the workplace when it
comes to DEI efforts orinclusion efforts.
And we really wanted to say,okay, you know, marketplace the
workplace is foundational tomarketplace impact.

(14:22):
What are those practices withinthe marketplace that can drive
growth?
How do we turn inclusion into agrowth driver and how do we
actually start to measure it?
So IMAX is actually part of abroader system for inclusive
growth that we have been uh nowtalking about because we want to

(14:43):
bring um consistent language andprocess and approach to this
work and um kind of take awaythe philosophical conversation,
but really, you know, groundedin what we believe, right, is
transformational for growth.
Um and there are actually fourcomponents, I'm not gonna spend
a lot of time, but just to giveyou uh maybe the um, you know,

(15:04):
kind of high-level understandingof what we think about when we
think about inclusive growth.
One is how do you mitigate riskin this time?
We obviously have to think aboutthat.
I wish it wasn't part of thework that we're doing, but it
is.
Um the second is how do youunlock growth?
And that's really about IMAX.
The third is how do you thenbuild the capability within your

(15:25):
organization and make inclusionan enterprise-wide capability?
Um, and then the fourth, whichis more of an internal thing for
us, is how do we start to fosterindustry alignment?
So um, you know, I where we areright now is that companies are
really under significantpressure, right, to grow in a

(15:46):
market that's very fragmented.
It's it's also skeptical, andpeople are watching really
closely, right?
So you have uh you haveconsumers that are that are um
kind of more complicated andmore diverse.
You've got investors that aremore discerning, and you've got
regulators that are more active.
Um so every decision from theculture you build to how your

(16:08):
brand shows up really doessignal what your company stands
for, right?
And so IMAX is a framework of150 plus business practices
across the organization thatreally helps leaders, CEOs,
CFOs, CMOs, uh, you know,inclusion leaders, culture
leaders, um to turn inclusioninto a competitive advantage by

(16:34):
building inclusion as acapability.
Um and so that's really what ourfocus has been.
And um it's it's a it's an it'sboth a framework and it's also a
maturity model, right?
Marketers are very uh used tomaturity models.
So we figured if we can start tofigure to um give and equip uh

(16:55):
individuals and companies with away to actually measure your
inclusion maturity and tie thatmaturity to business outcomes,
then you can understand what arethe practices that are gonna
contribute to building yourbrand equity, strengthening
performance, um, and ultimatelyreducing risk in this moment.

(17:15):
Uh so you know, we're prettyexcited about IMAX.
We're starting to roll it outnow, but it really is the first
time that you can start tomeasure inclusion as a brand
metric, you know, if you will.

SPEAKER_00 (17:27):
That's really smart.
I love it.
Love it.
So a lot of our members arenavigating companies and
organizations where DEIinitiatives feel either
performative or pretty much justdulled out.
Um what is the differencebetween companies that
successfully operationalizeinclusion using things like your
IMAX framework versus those whokind of are stuck in that
surface level conversationstill, or again have just chosen

(17:50):
to go silent on it, which feelslike a lot of folks.

unknown (17:54):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (17:55):
Um so, you know, I will say that um that there are
a lot of companies that havechosen to go silent but not stop
the work.
Um, so um, which, you know, forme again, I wish they were loud
and proud about doing the work.
Um, but doing the work is moreimportant.
And so, you know, um trying tostay under the radar, uh, trying

(18:18):
to do the right thing,continuing to do the right thing
so that they can focus on theirbusiness without a tax is
understandable, right?
In this moment.
Um, and so um I do think thatmore I do think there are more
companies that are actuallydoing the work uh versus having
completely walked away from it.
Um how they're doing it, I thinkis really, you know, kind of the

(18:40):
question, right?
So for me, the difference isgrowth.
Uh companies that move beyondperformative inclusion and
really integrate it into howthey build their brand, how they
build their products, theircustomer relationships that
drive performance will kind ofbring longevity to the practice

(19:01):
of inclusion and make it, youknow, um authentic, right?
And also sustainable.
I mean, if you look at companiesuh like ELF Beauty or Sephora,
right, they they're experiencingdouble-digit growth as a result
of their inclusion efforts, notbecause they're doing
performative inclusion, butbecause their inclusion, uh

(19:22):
their inclusion efforts areintegrated, uh integrated and
they're both intentional andauthentic, right?
Um and you know, I love actuallyuh when I when I kind of talk
about this, always it alwayskind of reminds me um of one of
our CMOs who are on the board,uh Joy Allen Altamira, and

(19:42):
Altamira, and she says that um,well she said at our Bridge 25
retreat last year, she said youneed to build cult you need to
build with culture, not forculture.
Okay.
And I think, I mean, it'sobvious, right?
But the nuance is incrediblypowerful and game-changing, I
think, for companies when youreally understand what that

(20:02):
means.
So, you know, that allows us tokind of go uh move away from,
well, we need diverse slates,and not that we don't, we need
diverse slates of, you know, umof you know where we hire, or we
need to get to percentages.
Start to think about how do youdevelop full, you know, with
culture, not full culture.
And that means that you have tohave that culture internally

(20:25):
integrated into yourorganization, right?
Um, and that means that you needto have diversity on your teams.
Um but not because we, you know,we think that it's a good moral
imperative, but it's becauseit's just smart business, right?
I mean, it's just smartbusiness.
If you're going after acommunity, make sure that your
your teams represent thecommunity that you're gonna that

(20:48):
you're looking to serve, becausethey know that community better
than you do if you're not partof it, right?
So um, so I do think that youknow the big difference is
growth and an understanding ofwhat it means to build with
culture, not full culture.
Um, and what does that mean?
And that is really kind of, youknow, I c I feel like I I repeat

(21:08):
myself a lot, but that's why webelieve that you know you need
to operationalize inclusion.
If if when I talk to companiesright now, my message to them is
in order to actually reduce yourvulnerabilities, do more.
Don't do less.
You know what I mean?
Because if it's part of yourbusiness and it's totally you
know integrated, um you youknow, people can't find it,

(21:31):
right, if they're looking for itbecause it's it's fundamental to
your business growth.
And by the way, uh, you know, Imean, I would I would imagine
that growth is the mostimportant thing.
So figure out how you can tiethat inclusion to business
outcomes.

SPEAKER_00 (21:44):
I love it.
And it's such a subtle butbrilliant mindset shift.
You're right, the for cultureversus with culture for
maintaining relevance, forfinding community, which is all
things that brands have wantedto do, but it's always felt like
it's been force feeding, right?
Because they're doing it for.
versus with and yeah there's ifeven from a marketing standpoint

(22:04):
that's such a smart obviouslyspoken well by a CML.

SPEAKER_01 (22:08):
Yeah and exactly who you know I love joy but um but
it really you know it it it thenuance is just so incredibly
simple yet very very powerful soabsolutely uh so you work across
marketing media and technologyindustries um that often claim
to value diversity but strugglewith that meaningful change what

(22:28):
patterns have you observed thatkeep these industries moving
beyond intentions and actual toactual outcomes I think this
kind of dovetails nicely off ofwhat we were just talking about
but any other builds that youhave yeah I mean it was not you
know I think I mean it's greatto have good intentions right
and I do think that a lot ofcompanies certainly after the
murder of George Floyd theirintentions were in the right

(22:51):
place but good intentions don'talways drive successful
implementation right um andunfortunately most times as we
saw and have seen they end upwith performative um activities
that are not sustainable orscalable right um and so you to

(23:12):
to really do inclusion work welland to tap into the opportunity
by the way um for growth youit's gonna require a behavior a
behavioral change right I meanright all the all all the most
successful things ultimately uhrequire you to change some form
of behavior right um and I thinka recognition that inclusion um

(23:34):
is a competitive advantage forlong-term growth and you know
back to what we were saying notjust a moral imperative right so
there has to be that in thatthat realization and that
awareness and that consciousnessum that is brought to inclusion
um and there has to be thatchange in behavior it's not
about politics it's not aboutwhat you believe it's not about

(23:56):
policy it's about where is theopportunity and understanding
that inclusion can be a hugecompetitive advantage and then
how do you change uh how do youprepare your organization for
that change in behavior so youcan start to embed inclusion in
you know your productdevelopment right I mean there
are so many I think there are somany gaps right from a product

(24:18):
development perspective andwe've seen when inclusion is
embedded um in productdevelopment and you see yourself
in the brand right how that justbuilds incredible you know brand
equity and loyalty and I I won'tget into it but we actually did
some research um uh uh last yearabout the impact of inclusion on

(24:39):
purchase intent yeah and it wason par with pricing strategies
so it was a it was a 3x impactum and it was literally on par
with pricing strategies and kindof yet like feature benefit
strategies.
So it you know when you start tokind of I think that's part of
what's been missing in theindustry and that's our you know
kind of responsibility is toshow the impact that it has on

(25:02):
purchase intent to show theimpact that it has on engagement
and you know those are the thoseare the maybe the the the the
rigor that has been missing inthis work and obviously we you
know we hope to to bring it butum you know you have to move
beyond good intentions right youhave to change behavior yeah
it's these little baby steps butit's like all significant

(25:24):
meaningful steps too so I thinkI I'm honestly excited about it.

SPEAKER_00 (25:28):
I'm happy to be out of the performative era of DEI
for the all the changes inadministration and how like it
all feels it just kind of feltlike it was like a sinking ship.
I actually think it's a littlebit more of a a dark horse you
know I think it's got its chanceto come back and I think it's
going to be grounded in a lot ofthe work that you're doing.

SPEAKER_01 (25:45):
Yeah you know Amy I think you make such a good point
um and it's something that Ihave said before which is every
but just let you know let's justset aside the politics for the
moment because it kind ofdoesn't matter.
Every single practice alwaysevolves.
I mean when you talk look youknow you talk to marketers all
the time ask CMOs how many timesthey re-org in a year, right?

(26:08):
I mean they can go through threeor four reorgs in one year.
It is an evolution you figureout what works and what doesn't
and then you you know you doubledown and you uh prioritize
what's working and you changewhat isn't.
I think that despite thepolitics um DEI practices
inclusion practices againwhatever you want to call them
was at the point where theywould have organically started

(26:30):
to evolve anyway and just by theway um we're not saying anything
that most DEI leaders haven'tsaid in their organizations and
I would say skilled DEI leadershaven't been saying that it's
attached to performance and it'sattached to business outcomes.
I think that there was notnecessarily that behavior change
so everyone kind of was so stuckon the fact that there was this

(26:54):
moral imperative and we neededto get X percentage of people
and you know the focus wasthere.
The skilled EI leaders thoughwere always you know have always
known that this is aboutpotential potential growth.
We just now have the opportunityto drive that message home in a
stronger way.
And I think CEOs that are opento hearing it are going to be

(27:15):
the ones that are mostsuccessful kind of in the
future.
So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (27:19):
So I'm gonna jump on one of my soapboxes here for
just a second.
I don't know how much ishappening anymore but um a lot
of our members myself includedhave often been asked to lead
inclusion efforts on top oftheir regular roles within
companies and this is where Iget a little chapped because
it's like we didn't create theproblem but you're gonna assign
us to do more work for free toaddress and fix the problem that

(27:41):
wasn't that wasn't our creation.
So how do you adviseprofessionals who maybe aren't
at the table at leadership whowant to drive some meaningful
change um do so without becomingbasically unpaid DEI labor.
Because it's a real thing.

SPEAKER_01 (27:58):
And it makes sense it is a real thing and it you
know it's it's it's the same asright like racism is not a is
not a black issue right it's notblack people to fix.
It's for you know it's for whitepeople to fix.
And you know it's kind of thesame thing right and I think
what we saw after the boon ofGeorge Floyd was um you know

(28:19):
okay well you're a woman oryou're a person of color and
you're doing marketing why don'tyou just start to do you know to
DEI and it kind of misses thepoint right you don't uh DEI are
are very skilled professionalsthat come at the work with a
very you know um uh nuanced lensto to the world and you know
being a woman or a person ofcolor certainly makes you more

(28:41):
conscious and aware but itdoesn't make you a DI leader
right um so you know I hear youand I do think that uh that has
been you know certainly achallenge right um that being
said I would say that inclusionis everyone's responsibility yes
um and it's actually not therole of women or people of color
even the DI leaders againwhatever their titles might be

(29:03):
at this moment um it they theycertainly can uh create the
strategy and they can create theunderstanding and the education
around the opportunity but atthe every at the at the um um at
the bottom line is that to do itsuccessfully it needs to be
intentionally again as we'vesaid embedded as core to your

(29:24):
role whatever your role iseveryone should be asking how do
I use inclusion as a lever todrive growth to create new
markets and to increase uh uhloyalty the conversation should
not be about whose job it is itshould be about how do we tap
into this as a huge opportunityum and as a lever for growth and

(29:45):
so I think that the way that wesolve this is by saying you know
again is by like not thinking ofit as outside of our jobs but
rather as integral to them rightand whether you're a CEO or CFO
or CMO if you're in marketing ifyou're in uh you know if you're

(30:06):
in uh uh research and insightsum if you're in product
development if you're in AIspecifically right now I mean
you know we should really betalking about how do you you you
put it uh uh inclusion at thecenter of your AI you know
models and development everyoneshould be asking that same
question um because that's howyou know you kind of figure out

(30:27):
how do you use it to drivegrowth and so we're not there
yet but that's the hope.
Um and I do think that that'show you you know you you change
the mindset from it being yourjob to being everyone's job.

SPEAKER_00 (30:42):
Yeah a hundred percent absolutely love that
answer.

SPEAKER_01 (30:45):
So the answer really is no we just need systems and
and inclusion's everyone's jobyeah you know you're obviously
and again it's like okay butthen you know I'm happy to do it
but it's gonna be integral to myjob and therefore need
resources, budget, etc so thatwe can be successful at
executing against it, you know,as and as a driver of growth not

(31:08):
because it feels good.
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (31:10):
I mean I'm just gonna vent for a second because
I feel like our listeners couldrelate is that like we I was a
creative director working 60hours a week with two small
children at home and I had sucha passion for this obviously I
wouldn't be doing what I'm doingnow if I didn't.
And you know they were like weneed a logo for the group and it
needs to be well designed and weneed to get reviews and

(31:31):
approvals scheduled I they weremaking such a big deal of all of
this stuff and I was like whydoes any of that actually matter
what matters is theconversations the concerns that
are being brought up in thespace that we're creating like
not how pretty the logo is andwhat the mission vision is and
where are the objectives whereare the goals you know yeah well

(31:52):
you know I mean I think that umyou know when when when
structure doesn't exist it's haryou know you kind of try to find
your center um and you do it onthe things that are familiar to
you right so that's kind of likeokay standard operating
procedure let's have a missionmission and vision let's have a
logo right and so you kind ofget stuck on um on the familiar

(32:14):
as opposed to you knowchallenging what doesn't exist.
So paper work absolutely I meanthey spent months on that I was
like are we are we gonna have ameeting?
Are we gonna kick this off likeany day now?

SPEAKER_01 (32:27):
I'm sure I'm sure I'm sure the cut the color was
really important too I honestlydon't even remember what it
looked like I blocked it out.

SPEAKER_00 (32:35):
But I do remember the conversations and I do
remember the opportunities thatit had that helped because I
didn't even stay but like theCFO was was greatly impressed by
the work that we did, the datathat we brought, the
conversations that we had andheld and um they ended up
working to he made it his goalto you know reach pay equity for
the whole company by the withintwo years and he did it.

(32:58):
And then a foundation that wouldactually help folks that maybe
couldn't get into the industryas easily get scholarships out
of high school to go to collegeto study these things and I mean
just a lot of really greatstuff.

SPEAKER_01 (33:11):
So it's not all in vain folks don't worry yeah you
know I it just often I I'll I'llbe on my sub box for a second
but often I wonder what are wewhat are we really arguing
about?
This is not that hard.
No right it's just not thathard.
Everyone deserves equityeveryone you know I mean it's
just it's just not that and bythe way it's good for business

(33:33):
when you're you know you've gotseven trillion dollars of buying
power from underrepresentedcommunities what are we arguing
about?
Do you want part of it or don'tyou?
Because if you do then do it youknow then there's lots of
opportunities to get this rightum and and to tap into that
buying power right so what arewe really arguing about?

(33:53):
There's money to be spent if youwant the money to if you want
that money let's talk about howyou get it I will just answer
the question and then ask you itbecause it goes really nicely
into our next question.

SPEAKER_00 (34:04):
To me I think it's fear and a potential loss of
power like perceived loss ofpower.
So like when you're talkingabout you know all these things
how well documented inclusionworks that there are people who
will still persist to resist andwhat's really holding leadership
back?
Has anybody actually gotten allopen and vulnerable with you

(34:25):
about what those barriers trulyare for them or the rest of the
organization that are holdingthem back?

SPEAKER_01 (34:32):
I don't know.
I mean you know listen inclusionis not a zero sum game right I
mean it's just you again as youhave to really believe and
change your behavior and uh Iwould hope you know if you're a
CEO that you you recognize thatyou cannot lead out of fear.
I mean certainly we're seeing alot of that now it's not getting

(34:53):
us anyway right you have to havecourage you have to have
conviction you have to haveclarity and you have to make
decisions based on what's bestfor your brand and the
communities that you serve rightso um yeah I I I don't I don't
know I I you know it's a it's alot of excuses um not a lot of
substance as to why you wouldn'tkind of do it right inclusion

(35:13):
has always been about everyoneright so that includes you guys
that includes everybody rightthere's there's a lot of miss
you know there's a lot ofmisconceptions out there you
know which hopefully we can tryto you know take that narrative
back but um you know listen Ithink that you know thinking
about like you kind of what yousaid and maybe what your next

(35:33):
question is in or what yourquestion is in terms of what's
holding leadership back and youknow and if I always like to say
okay you know we can blameeveryone else but what can we do
differently right so how do wetake responsibility to try and
help not have them hold back orhow do we help them break those
barriers right and so I tend tobelieve that leaders don't

(35:54):
necessarily need more beliefright when you talk to them they
they're like yeah we do we knowuh we believe we're just not
sure you know so uh so we'vecommented from the okay well
listen we're gonna give somemore infrastructure to this
right um and we are gonna helpyou kind of move away from the

(36:15):
inertia um and from the fear uhand from the fact that maybe
there has been uh an uh anabsence of a clear roadmap right
um but at the end of the day umand so we're gonna provide you
with that infrastructure rightand that's why we created the
system of inclusive growththat's why we created IMAX

(36:35):
because we kind of are takingyou know we're giving solutions
to what we've heard uh um as youknow what the barriers are right
um but I think ultimately whatleaders need to understand and
that's every leader uh that youknow is listening not listening
maybe your your listeners cantake it you know today's leader

(36:55):
um is that I believe uhgenuinely believe that to break
the barriers we need to moveinclusion out of the margins
into the mechanics of thebusiness yeah and when we do
that and we embed it intoperformance and governance and
growth and you know all of theseopportunities uh we start to
have a very differentconversation um we can you know

(37:18):
we can uh move past this fearwhich I you know is hard to
understand maybe it's even justlack of courage at this moment
in time um because there arejust you know they're just huge
opportunities and so let's let'sfocus on the performance let's
focus on the growth we don'teven have to have other
conversations about it.
Yeah yeah that makes a lot ofsense all right so you have

(37:40):
built bridge uh it's anindependent global organization
why wasn't independence or whywas independence critical to
your mission and how does itenable you to push the kind of
change that you um that mightmake some industry players
uncomfortable um yeah you know Imean it's a it's a it's a
complicated thing because we'rean industry trade organization

(38:01):
so we you know we're asindependent obviously we're
independent but we also servethe global industry the global
marketing industry and so wecome to the work obviously with
a responsibility to ensure thatum you know we understand the
challenges and we um and we wesee clearly um all of the things
that are happening but I dothink what it does allow us to

(38:23):
do is have a voice in um placeswhere employees of organizations
might not have that same voiceright um they might have uh
marketing communicationsguidelines that they can you
know that they have to abide byand respect uh they might have
you know moments that are youknow just too complicated right

(38:45):
um to uh unravel and so uh so Ithink that as a kind of industry
group and as a voice for thiswork um and certainly as a voice
for uh leaders that are doingthis work it allows us to have
some of the more difficultconversations that might you
might not have be able to haveif you're you know internal to

(39:05):
an to a company so yeah awesomeyeah all right for leaders who
generally want to mature theirinclusion practices but don't
even know where to start beyondthe traditional training what's
the first operational shift thatthey could make I feel like I'm
gonna repeat myself it's okay wegot to reinforce it make sure

(39:26):
that I really I really do I feellike I'm gonna repeat myself but
I would say stop thinking ofinclusion as a philosophy or
even as optional and startthinking about it as a
competitive capability forgrowth.
Like you have to start right ifyou really are genuinely um
interested in inclusion you'vegot to change your behavior
you've got to start you've gotto change how you're thinking

(39:47):
about it and don't get caught upin the ph in the philosophy or
the politics of it and reallystart thinking about it as a
competitive capability.

SPEAKER_00 (39:55):
And that can be such a distraction you're so right
because it strips away all theBS and all of the the drama and
all of the polarization and justbrings it back to what it's
supposed to be about.
Yeah I love that yeah again itbears repeating so don't even
worry about it.

SPEAKER_01 (40:11):
We'll keep saying it until the years I feel like I
can I feel like I'm you knowkind of beating a drum but but
it it as you say it it bearsrepeating because it is the
thing it's just such a hugeopportunity I just wish you know
I wish I could talk to every CEOof every Fortune 500 company and
just say to them you're thinkingabout this wrong this is just a

(40:33):
huge opportunity and you knowlet's just give it a shot right
just think about it differently.

SPEAKER_00 (40:38):
We need to find a way to go the marketer route and
just give them a little FOMO.
Yeah exactly find a way tocreate some inclusion FOMO.

SPEAKER_01 (40:46):
All right my last question before we move on to
the power round is looking atmarketing media and tech
industries today what gives youhope and what keeps you up at
night um about where we'reheaded with inclusion this is a
really difficult question umbecause I am actually an eternal
um optimist but I have um I havestruggle struggle to see um hope

(41:11):
in the lack of you knowcourageous leadership that we're
seeing and so um so I'm gonnachoose to focus on the
opportunity to change theconversation um and not
necessarily focus on whether ornot there's hope or you know or
no hope, right?
Because I believe that there'senough people out there that
believe in this and that we canyou know again I'm an eternal

(41:32):
optimist that we can change theconversation and that this you
know this too shall pass.
I think also you know that whatkeeps me up at night probably is
more than what you know it mightis a bigger focus for me than
obviously what gives me hopebecause what keeps me up at
night spurs our work right andit allows us to keep um you know

(41:54):
thinking and iterating andmaking sure that we've got the
right you know the rightanswers.
But um I would say I would say afew things.
Number one is you know how do wehelp leaders understand that a
commitment to values um is agood thing right it's just it's

(42:17):
just a good thing right it'sjust it's good business it's
good for your employees it'sgood for your consumers doesn't
you know it's just a good thingright like you need to really
internalize who you are and yourvalues because that allows you
to um in hard and difficultmoments which we are surely in
it allows you to communicate andit allows you to stand by you

(42:39):
know who you are and who you andwhat you believe in despite
right what might kind of comeout from it.
Right.
In the long term it's going tobe the thing that really grounds
companies so um so I you know Ikind of think about how do we
help them.
I think that the the the the thething is how do we kind of move
companies away from this naivetethat inclusion is option

(43:04):
optional and that there aren'tconsequences without it um
because because they are andwe've seen what those
consequences are and so start tothink about how do you how do
you do it right as opposed tokind of walking away from it
right so those are the kind ofthings.
The other piece I was thinking alot and I've been thinking a lot

(43:25):
about this is the um and thisreally does keep me up at night
is this you know just incredibleurgency and like um almost you
know kind of insane urge to rushto build AI models um without
confronting the systemic biasesum that exist.

(43:45):
And I believe that we aresignificantly underestimating
the reputational risk of doingthis.
I think that there is a hugepotential risk to uh to
reputation for brands.
By rushing and using AI to dojust about everything, right?

(44:10):
Whether it's hiring, whether itis creating ads.
I mean, we we know that likehuman error, right, has allowed
some pretty egregious mistakesfrom a marketing perspective.
We've seen a lot of them.
So now we're kind of relying ona model that we know is
intrinsically has intrinsic uhsystemic biases to make those

(44:31):
decisions for us.
And I I I genuinely, genuinelybelieve um that we are rushing
to uh that we are rushing uhwithout being intentional and
conscious and aware of thepotential reputational risks
that are, I think, inevitable ifwe continue to do that.
So I know that we're kind ofthinking about how do we even

(44:54):
start maybe an inclusive AIdevelopment committee.
I hear too much about what AIcan do for companies and not
enough about how we're gonnabuild those models.
Um and so I think we should allbe very afraid that we're
rushing um into you know intobuilding these models.

(45:14):
And I I would say that we shouldpause um and understand it and
really you know think about itmore pragmatically.
There's not there's not anurgency, right?
Like we're we're we're we'recreating, you know, kind of a um
our own timeline on this.
There's you know, yes, there ishuge opportunity in AI, it's

(45:35):
transformational, but we've seenspecifically, right, in the
media and marketing industrywhen we have built structure too
fast, the problems that it hascreated afterwards.
Absolutely.
And so we you know, we we reallyhave an opportunity to kind of
go, okay, breathe, pause, let'sthink about it.

SPEAKER_00 (45:54):
Agreed.
I hear you.

SPEAKER_01 (45:55):
I don't know if that answered your question, but it
did.

SPEAKER_00 (45:58):
It was wonderful.
Thank you.
And I feel you on both of thosefronts.
All right, we've got um ourpower round questions.
If anybody from the livelistening audience wants to jump
into the chat and leave aquestion, you absolutely can.
Um, if not, we'll go throughthese and then we'll we'll get
you all back to the rest of yourday.
What is the most uncomfortableconversation you've had um that
led to a big big break, bigbreakthrough?

SPEAKER_01 (46:22):
Yeah, you know, so I was saying I was thinking a lot
about that, right?
Um I mean, it's a greatquestion, by the way.
And and and I appreciated thequestion.
Um and so um, and I was thinkinga lot about that.
And um uh so I'm gonna share,I'm gonna share a story, and I
would say that it not it's notnecessarily maybe the kind of
traditional uh sense ofconversation, but it's still

(46:44):
communication.
So I kind of figured that I hada little leeway in how I
answered this.
Um but I will say that um it wasa month after we launched
Bridge.
So we launched Bridge in Aprilof 2022, and it was in May of
2022.
Um and I'm not sure if yourlisteners will remember this or

(47:05):
if you will, and I and I I I'mnot picking on the brand, I'm
just sharing a story.
Um, but it was when Walmartlaunched their Juneteenth ice
cream.
Oh I don't remember if I saidthat, yeah.
Okay, so Walmart launched aJuneteenth ice cream, you know,
again, good intentions, right?
Um to uh to honor Juneteenth,obviously, you know, not good,

(47:29):
not great execution.
Um uh but you know, it was areal kind of David and Goliath
moment for us because we um wedecided to write an open letter
uh to Walmart.
Um and uh as with everythingthat we do, we come at this from
how can we help you, right?
We're not looking to name andshame.

(47:50):
This is hard work, right?
People are gonna make mistakes,but we are uh looking to help,
right?
And so these are the things sowe you know, we wrote an open
letter uh in and and theapproach was you know, here's
how we can help you kind ofrethink um uh this type of you
know activity.
Because if you if you thinkabout it, and again, I'm not I

(48:10):
you know I don't I'm I'm notpicking on Walmart, but I think
it's such a huge opportunity forlearning because if you think
about how many people thatproduct from product development
all the way to the fact that itended up on the shelves, yeah,
how many people saw that, right?
That's an infrastructurechallenge, right?
It's not a bad intentionschallenge.

(48:33):
It's a it's a fact that there isan infrastructure, there's a
gap, right?
There's a gap somewhere, right?
Um, so we wrote so we wrote thisuh this open letter.
It got picked up by theassociated press.
I think we ended up getting likea billion impressions.
By the way, we've never got thatsince then.
Uh, with any of our give us moreice cream.

unknown (48:54):
Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 (48:55):
But we like literally, we got like this, you
know, a billion impressions.
It really kind of opened up theopportunity for us to have these
kinds of conversations.
Uh, we we did not anticipate it.
Uh, Walmart ultimately did takethe ice cream off their shelves.
We don't take credit for thatbecause uh there was incredible
activity on social media uh thatreally, you know, I think

(49:17):
spurred that action.
Hopefully we get a little, youknow, maybe we get a tiny little
bit of credit.
Um but at the end of the day,what it did was it allowed us to
kind of be courageous in thosemoments.
Um, you know, could we have doneit behind the scenes?
Absolutely, which we now havemade some decisions when things

(49:38):
like this happen.
We actually do reach out.
We've helped a lot of brands nowbehind the scenes when things
happen.
Um because that's what that'swho we want to be.
We want to be an organizationthat um is ready to help when,
you know, because we knowmistakes are gonna be made.

unknown (49:54):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (49:55):
Yeah, and putting them on blast won't earn that
trust right away.

SPEAKER_01 (49:57):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Right.
So um, you know, so I apologizeto Walmart that we did the open
letter and we didn't kind ofcome to behind the scenes, but
it was kind of uh breakthrough.
We learned a lot also, um,because you know, we we we we
were very excited about theabout our opportunity to do

(50:18):
this, but we also didn't takeinto account the fact that some
of our members worked withWalmart, right?
So it's not it's not that theydisagreed necessarily with the
position, but probably we shouldhave done a better job of just
giving them a heads up, youknow.
So we you know, so we learn fromour own, you know, we learn from
our own unfortunateconversation, and that's how we

(50:39):
grow, and that's how we, youknow, we've kind of matured
ourselves, right?
We were one month old doing thiskind of crazy, as I said, you
know, David and Goliath moment.
Um but it did, it was importantfor I think everyone, right?
Because it was it was a ateaching moment, it was a
learning moment, um, it was atime when um we could have those

(51:00):
conversations, and I just wishwe could like have those
conversations now, right?
So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (51:06):
Agreed.
Love it.

SPEAKER_01 (51:07):
Yeah, all right.
Finish this sentence.
Real inclusion feels likeintentionally valuing all people
for their differences.

SPEAKER_00 (51:15):
Love it.
That's a great answer.

SPEAKER_01 (51:17):
And I would put all in capital, like all.

SPEAKER_00 (51:20):
I love it.
I love it.
Yeah, we'll do that on thesubtitles.
All caps.

SPEAKER_01 (51:26):
All caps, intentionally valuing all people
for their differences.

SPEAKER_00 (51:31):
Yeah.
Um, what is one leadership mythabout diversity and inclusion
that needs to die?

SPEAKER_01 (51:37):
Uh that it's not mutually exclusive from
meritocracy.
Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (51:43):
I dig it.
Dang it.
Oh, this has been so fantastic,Cheryl.
Thank you so much.
You've brought a lot of clarity,courage, and candor to the
conversation.
I love your commitment to movingbeyond the comfortable
conversations and showing real,measurable, actual um change and
inclusion can actually be whatmoves the needle for not just
consumers, but also the industryneeds and business needs.

(52:05):
So for everyone listening, Iencourage you to connect with
Cheryl on LinkedIn and learnmore about Bridge and the IMAX
Index.
Um, this is the kind of workthat transforms not just
organizations but entireindustries.
What were you gonna say, Cheryl?

SPEAKER_01 (52:18):
No, I I said please, everyone should should uh
connect.
And um, I'm just you know, I I'mvery kind of grateful for the
opportunity to talk about thiswork.
As you can see, I get a littleanimated about it, but I'm
really passionate and I justgenuinely believe in what we're
doing.
So I just I I appreciate theopportunity to uh to be able to
talk about it.

SPEAKER_00 (52:38):
You need it, you need the optimism, you need the
passion because it's not easywork.
So can you start?

SPEAKER_01 (52:43):
We're not going, we're not going away, and we're
gonna continue to uh uh to driveagainst this in uh in the best
possible way, you know,supporting companies, bringing
solutions and doing it so that,like, you know, as I say, we can
respect everyone for theirdifferences.

SPEAKER_00 (52:59):
Absolutely.
Yep.
And to our listeners in ourtogether digital community, if
today's conversation resonatedwith you, remember we're here to
support your growth andleadership.
Um, whether you're working todrive inclusion in your
organization or just stretchbeyond your own comfort zone.
You're not alone in the workthat you're doing.
You have a tremendous communityof women right behind you.
You can find them on Slack, um,you can find them at our events.

(53:19):
And if you're not a member yet,we encourage you to check us out
and find that community so thatyou can start to leverage the
knowledge, power, andconnections of this wonderful
collaborative of women whoreally just choose to show up
for themselves and for oneanother.
Um, and you know, we get to havegreat conversations like this in
the power lounge, but we alsohave masterclasses, peer groups,
and professional developmentopportunities.

(53:39):
Cheryl, thank you again.
It's been such a pleasuretalking with you.
I really appreciate you.
As soon as I saw you talking onstage, it's like we have to have
her in the power lounge.
So here we are, yeah.
So happy to have you here withus and being able to introduce
you to the community for thosewho couldn't attend.

SPEAKER_01 (53:54):
So yeah, thank you so much for having me.
I really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00 (53:58):
My pleasure.
All right, everyone, that's allwe've got for you today.
We hope to see you again soon.
Until next time, keep asking,keep giving, and keep growing.
We'll see you soon.