Lead Yourself & Own Your Career

Two sisters from rural Appalachia wrote the playbook they wish they had.

What does it actually take for a woman to lead herself forward when no one handed her a roadmap? That question sits at the heart of this conversation, and the answer is more honest, more practical, and more urgent than most career advice you have heard.

Self leadership is not a title you earn or a milestone you reach. It is a daily practice, and for women navigating careers that were not designed with them in mind, it may be the most important skill no one ever taught them. This episode of The Power Lounge is for every woman who has ever felt stuck, invisible, or like she was playing by rules she was never given.

Kelly Mooney is a three-time author, speaker, gender equity advocate, and founder of Equipt Women. She spent over two decades leading the nation's largest independent digital agency, became Chief Experience Officer of North America at IBM, and has served on three public company boards. Her sister and co-founder Katy Mooney is a certified leadership and performance coach whose clients include Walmart, Meta, and Lululemon. Together they are the co-authors of UP! The Playbook for Every Woman on the Rise, available June 2nd.

Key Takeaways

Self leadership has to come before everything else because when you change the way you think about yourself and what you want, every choice that follows becomes different.

Women often wait for permission to pursue something bigger, ask for more, or take up space. A big part of moving forward is writing yourself that permission slip.

Your career is a series of choices, and not choosing is also a choice. Recognizing that truth, even when the system is not working in your favor, is where your power starts coming back.

Visibility with senior leaders is not about politics. It is strategy. Research shows that for every sponsor advocating for you behind closed doors, your chances of promotion increase by 10 percent.

There is no one path and no one pace. Careers span 40 to 50 years, which means you cannot have your foot on the pedal all the time. The only shoulds that matter are the ones you decide for yourself.

Kelly Mooney said, "I want her to know that she has more power within her than she realizes to create the career and life she desires."

Host Amy Vaughn said, "Self leadership is not a title you earn. It is a practice that you choose."

Timestamps

00:00 Welcome to The Power Lounge

01:12 Introducing Kelly and Katy Mooney

02:43 Growing up as two of ten kids in rural Appalachia

05:05 The arc of UP and why self leadership comes first

07:59 What coaching reveals about women who feel stuck or invisible

09:31 Owning your choices even when the system is broken

15:18 Finding your fit. The four dimensions framework

21:57 Self leadership in the middle of a big transition

24:47 Tuning into head, heart, and gut as centers of intelligence

33:23 Getting in the game and the unwritten rules of the workplace

39:14 No shoulds. Staying on your own mat and practicing non-comparison

47:08 Power round. The hardest rule to learn and what moving up means now

52:31 Audience Q and A. Keeping entrepreneurial momentum while working a 9 to 5

Connect with Kelly and Katy

Book: https://equiptwomen.com/up

Website: https://equiptwomen.com

Newsletter: https://equiptwomen.com/get-equipt

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/equiptwoman

Together Digital: https://togetherindigital.com

Support the show

Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_02 (00:00):
There's a reluctance almost to say what they want.
It's like there's a lack ofaudacity.
Men, men don't lack audacity.

SPEAKER_01 (00:08):
Some I think a lot of women do.
Whether you're dead, dead ass,broke, stuck in a job that's
going nowhere, or sick of yoursocial life, you have choices.
You might not feel like you do,but you do.

SPEAKER_02 (00:19):
Growth and comfort cannot coexist.

SPEAKER_01 (00:23):
And I was like, oh, it sucks, but it's true.
Why are women so like heads downand they're doing their work and
they're really performing?
And then one day they just getup and leave and they're pissed.
For every sponsor you have,which is a senior person
advocating for you behind closeddoors, it increases your chances
of being promoted by 10%.

SPEAKER_03 (00:52):
Hello, everyone, and welcome to our weekly Power
Lounge.
This is your place to hearauthentic conversations from
those who have power to share.
My name is Amy Vaughn, and I amthe owner and chief empowerment
officer of Together Digital, adiverse and collaborative
community of women who work indigital and choose to share
their knowledge, power, andconnections.
You can join the movement atTogetherIndigital.com.

(01:15):
And today's conversation is onethat I have genuinely been
looking forward to because it'sabout something that every woman
in this community needspermission to do, and that is to
lead herself.
I am joined today by KellyMooney and Katie Mooney, sisters
and co-founders of EquippedWomen and co-authors of a brand
new book called UP, the Playbookfor Every Woman on the Rise,

(01:36):
which is available very soon,June 2nd.
Kelly and Katie grew up as theeighth and ninth of 10 children
in rural Appalachia, far fromthe center of power without a
roadmap.
They figured it out and um thehard way now, and they have
written a book on all that theywish they had known.

(01:58):
Kelly is a three-time author,speaker, gender equality
advocate, and founder ofEquipped Women.
She spent over two decadesleading the nation's largest
independent digital agency,guiding Fortune 500 companies
through digital transformationbefore becoming the chief
experience officer of NorthAmerica at IBM.
And she has served on threepublic company boards and is the

(02:19):
chairperson for Giving ListWomen.
Katie is certified a certifiedleadership and performance
coach, co-author of UP, andco-founder of and chief of
learning officer at Equip Women.
Her career spans law, brandstrategy, marketing leadership,
and coaching.
With clients including Walmart,Meta, and Lulu Lemon, she's also

(02:41):
designed a professional programfor thousands of women to um
from entry level to the C-suite.
Up has already earned praisefrom Lucy Liu, Marie Furleo.
Oh, I can talk.
Marie Furileo, uh, the formerCEO of Patagonia and the CFO of
SpaceX, Google Chief DesignOfficer.

(03:01):
And we can all see why.
This playbook, this is aplaybook that our community has
been waiting for.
Katie and Kelly, we're excitedto have you all here.
Welcome to the Power Lounge.
Thanks, Amy.
Happy to be here.
Wonderful.
And as always, we have some ofour live listeners with us as
well.
I know we can't see you, but wewould love to hear from you in
the chat.
Don't be shy.
Say hi if you have a questionfor Kelly and Katie.

(03:23):
We've got a lot to talk abouttoday, but we always try to
leave time for your questions.
We want to encourage you to ask,ask, ask, ask.
So if you have something thatyou are dying to know, let us
know.
All right.
As I said earlier in your bio,both of you were two of 10 kids
in rural Appalachia.
So far from any traditionalpower centers, how did that

(03:45):
origin shape the way that youthink about what it means for a
woman to lead herself forward?
And I'll let whichever one ofyou wants to go first, jump, I
think go first.

SPEAKER_01 (03:55):
Yeah, Amy, I mean, with our rural upbringing and
being raised as part of a clan,that's how you have to think
about it with a family that big.
I actually consider myself alate bloomer.
Like I didn't know a singlewoman in business growing up,
not a single woman.
So when I got my first job, thatwas the first time I was exposed
to anyone in business.

(04:16):
So the role models we had wereall were homemakers.
And um, we also, as a bigfamily, didn't have any decision
authority as you know, we didn'tdecide anything.
It was decided for us.
And I when I think about leadingmyself, the only thing I led
myself to do um in high schoolwas I decided I was gonna study
industrial design, even though Iknew nothing about the major.

(04:36):
I didn't know a single person init, I had no idea what job I
would get, but I just knew thatwas what I was gonna do, and I
did it.
And it wasn't really until muchlater in life that the idea of
self-leadership started to takeroot for me.

SPEAKER_02 (04:52):
Yeah, I'll jump into like growing up in a big family,
you have to be resourceful andself-sufficient.
There's not a lot of handholding and coddling going on.
So we all had chores, jobs,responsibilities from a really
young age, like around 10.
I can remember getting my firstpaper out.
Um, but there was also anunspoken expectation that we

(05:13):
would all go to college andcreate bigger lives for
ourselves, like leave the smalltown that we grew up in, even
though our parents went tocollege and then returned.
So, and very few people from ourhigh school left town, left the
town and went to college.
And all of us did.
So I think that upbringingtaught me initiative, like

(05:34):
nobody was gonna do it for me.

SPEAKER_03 (05:38):
I love it.
Yeah, nobody's going to do itfor you.
That's big.
That's a big realization tohave.
But also, like kudos to you alland to your parents for all of
your kids going to college.
That's incredible, especially 10kids.
All right, so let's talk alittle bit about the upcoming
book.
Um, up it's organized around sixparts.
Lead yourself, own your choices,find your fit, think bigger, get

(06:01):
in the game, and love your lifealong the way.
Could you walk us through alittle bit of that logic of the
arc and why does self-leadershiphave to come first?

SPEAKER_01 (06:11):
Yeah, I think it's interesting that you're asking
that and about the arc becausethe very first part that I wrote
was called Own Your Choices.
And that was submitted topublishers, and it was like the
starting point until we reallystarted to develop the rest of
the book and write the rest ofthe book, and it became very

(06:33):
clear that lead yourself had tobe first, and it had to be first
because really um when youchange the way you think about
yourself and what you want andwhat your needs, then your
choices become different and howyou view your choices becomes
different.
So you'll become more self-awarewhen you lead yourself, you'll
become more intentional, andthen everything follows from

(06:55):
there.
So all the choices that comenext.
And then find your fit had tocome after that because if it's
hard to actually perform in yourrole if you don't actually have
a great fit.
So there's a lot of dimensions,we'll talk about that later.
And then thinking bigger was tofollow.
So if your fit is off, it'sdifficult to think bigger.

(07:16):
So that needed to come next.
And then really get in your inthe game was purposely last
because once you're clear aboutwho you are, what you want, and
you're thinking bigger andbolder, now you can get in the
game and win and play to win.
And so love your life along theway.
I know you listed it last, andwe originally listed it last

(07:36):
too, and that's kind of the waywe thought about it, except it
started to feel like an endnote.
And the whole idea of love yourlife along the way is that you
don't want to delay yourpersonal life.
You don't want to delay thegratification that comes from a
personal life until someday inthis unknown future.
And so our editor had the ideaof um making it not an end note

(08:00):
or a final chapter, but reallyit's a thread.
So you'll see it as a series ofsidebars throughout the book of
a reminder that your life is animportant, integrated part.
And so I thought it was a greatum suggestion from our editor.
So we, so we took it.

SPEAKER_03 (08:18):
I love it.
The power of a good editor.
I think like what you said asfar as like the order and the
arc and again, what feelsinstinctive sometimes it because
you've lived the experience,isn't always as good for those
who haven't come through theexperience yet.
And I think what you're sayingtoo about the leading yourself,
you know, it's you're gettinginto the wrong game potentially

(08:39):
by not leading yourself first,right?
Because you're trying to getinto someone else's game,
someone else's space, someoneelse's expertise, and this is
not yours.
So I think that makes all thesense in the world.
Katie, I want to talk to you alittle bit about you've done a
lot of coaching for professionalwomen who are everything from
entry level to C-suite.
A lot of women that I talk to aswell, they feel stuck or

(09:01):
invisible.
And that can be a challenge.
And I don't know if this likegladders back into kind of like
one of those six parts of thebook, but I was kind of curious
as to what you've been able toidentify as the real root cause
that you almost always find kindof underneath that sense of I
feel stuck, I feel invisible,because I feel like there's a
lot of people in that spaceright now.

SPEAKER_02 (09:23):
Yeah, I think you're right about that.
Well, I mean, everyone's alittle bit different, but there
is one thing that is consistentin a lot of the women that I've
been working with for the last,gosh, two decades.
And that is like there's areluctance almost to say what
they want.
It's like there's a lack ofaudacity.

(09:43):
Men, men don't lack audacity.
Some I think a lot of women do.
And so women are waiting forpermission to pursue something
bigger, ask for more, take upspace.
So a big part of my coaching ishelping women write themselves a
permission slip.
And that does tie back to a lotof the themes that are in the
book.
Um, first of all, having clarityand then speaking up is a

(10:07):
chapter, um, get in the game isa whole part of the book.
So there's a lot of themes thatrelate back to um just saying it
and having the audacity to takeup some space.

SPEAKER_03 (10:22):
I love it.
And audacity is like to me, it'snot a whim, right?
It's a conscious choice.
And it feels like a riskoftentimes.
And I think, you know, in thebook, you all talk about a bit
of like reframing every aspectof your life as a series of
choices that are within yourcontrol.
And you even have that wholesection that's like own your

(10:43):
choices.
And that sounds reallyempowering.
Um, you know, obviously, but alot of women, especially those
who are maybe navigating systemsthat weren't built for them or
don't have them in mind, it canalso feel like a lot of
pressure.
How do you work to hold both ofthose truths at once?

SPEAKER_01 (11:01):
Yeah, I mean, both of those things are true.
The systems weren't designed forus, and um, the pressure feels
real, and yet we need topersevere.
And so I don't, I don't everwant to deny that.
I mean, I think also the choicesaren't always easy.
We get into that, they're notalways fair.
Um, but there are choices.

(11:22):
And I think the problem happensis when we basically say, I
can't do anything because thesystem is unfair.
I can't do anything because thesystem is broken.
And so you have to make a moveknowing that the system isn't
necessarily working um in yourfavor all the time, but you can
make a move to fight to fix it.

(11:44):
And in my big um, you know,dreamy world, the what I really
hope is that women actuallypersevere to fix it so that it
gets better for everyone.

SPEAKER_04 (11:54):
Yes.

SPEAKER_01 (11:55):
And so the choices thing is really interesting.
Amy, and I was looking at the umthe book earlier this morning.
Would it be okay if I just reada short piece from it?
Because I think it really likedemonstrates the message.
So it says your life is a seriesof choices.
Some are big, some are small,some are meaningless, and others
are consequential.
Whether you're dead, deadass,broke, stuck in a job that's

(12:16):
going nowhere, or sick of yoursocial life, you have choices.
You might not feel like you do,but you do, and that's an
eye-opening truth.
And so it goes on to explainlike 16 clusters, and I'll just
read a few of them.
You can choose to struggle, youcan choose to figure it out on
your own, or you can choose toask for help.
That's a cluster.

(12:36):
You can choose to get moreeducation, you can choose to
keep doing what you're doing,you can choose to explore a new
career opportunity, you canchoose to scroll for hours on
social media, you can choose tolimit your time on social media,
you can choose to delete youraccounts, you can choose to
believe that money will workitself out, you can choose to

(12:59):
let somebody else handle yourfinances, you can choose to
become financially savvy.
So the it goes on and on and on,but it's there's a series of
three that we are sharing verypurposefully so that people can
see that we do, in fact, havechoices and not choosing is also

(13:19):
a choice.

SPEAKER_03 (13:21):
A hundred percent.
That is beautiful, and that's sotrue.
Stuck is a choice, head in thesand, also a choice.
It's just a matter of like whatdo you the risk versus the gain.
Um, but yeah, and it's it isinteresting how between being
kind of complacent and orcomfortable even, you know, is a
choice, right?
It's like something we seek out,but then I don't know, there's

(13:45):
like that fine line betweencomfort and just complacent.

SPEAKER_01 (13:50):
Amy, I like the line and I didn't create it, but I'm
motivated by it is that whenyou're in your comfort zone,
you're resting.
And it's a really powerfulthought because we should
sometimes be in our comfort zoneand we need that rest.
But if we're always in ourcomfort zone, we're not growing.
So that is what I wouldchallenge people to think about

(14:12):
is how often are you in yourcomfort zone?

SPEAKER_02 (14:15):
I was at a conference last week and uh
somebody said growth and comfortcannot coexist.
And I was like, oh, I was like,It sucks, but it's true.
And I want to say too, whenKelly wrote that first um
introduction for own yourchoices, I remember reading it

(14:36):
and I just got the googoosebumps.
Yeah.
Because it really spoke to me,even at this stage in my life.
Um and and and it excited me andit made me very emotional.
Because what I know for surefrom coaching and just my own
life is that when you havechoices, your stress level goes

(14:57):
down.

SPEAKER_04 (14:57):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (14:58):
Because when you think you're in a corner and you
have no choices, you you know,you it can feel suffocating, it
can feel overwhelming.
But when you take a differentlens and all of a sudden you
have more possibilities, morechoices, then things, the
temperature starts coming down,and that's where your power
starts coming back.
So I just love that that wholepart of the book.

(15:20):
I every time I read something,I'm like, oh, that's my favorite
part, but um.

SPEAKER_03 (15:25):
Yeah, no, it's so good.
It also reminds me, I used to doa still do a mindfulness
workshop in one of my favoritequotes.
I don't know if it's like trulystraight out Buddhist or not,
but it talks a lot aboutimpermanence.
And so whenever I'm goingthrough a hard season, I love
this quote.
It's like the the bad news isnothing is forever.
The good news is nothing isforever.

(15:47):
So whenever I'm having to make ahard choice and I know that
there will be fallout orconsequences, you know, I really
have the end goal in sight inmind, and it might be hard to
kind of work through the mud,but on the other side, there's
something good.
And so that makes that choicemore like tolerable because I
know the fallout is not going tobe forever.

SPEAKER_01 (16:08):
Yep.

SPEAKER_03 (16:09):
So yeah.
Let's get into the section onfinding your fit.
You both you mentioned in thatpart that people don't assess
fit.
I want to dig into that a littlebit because a lot of times they
don't assess it and they justhope for the best.
Um, for the women in ourcommunity who are grinding away
in roles and cultures thatclearly do not fit them, they're
stuck, right?
What's the first question thatthey should be asking themselves

(16:30):
when it comes to fit?

SPEAKER_02 (16:33):
Well, I'll I'll start here.
Uh uh I'm always coming at itfrom a coaching lens.
And so I always say start withyourself because that's the one
thing that you have 100% controlover before assuming the role or
the culture is the problem.
Ask yourself, like, how am Ishowing up?
Am I engaged?
Am I performing well?

(16:53):
And if not, why not?
Sometimes the fit is wrong, butsometimes people have stopped
performing, or maybe they'reoverwhelmed and they need
support and they haven't askedfor it.
So the first thing is just behonest with yourself about how
you're showing up and why.

SPEAKER_01 (17:09):
Yeah, I love that.
And I this whole section isreally important to me because
you probably relate to this,Amy, too, as well as that
employers have a lens for seeingtalent and always thinking about
what fits for them.
And we realize that umindividuals didn't have um a way
or a framework to assess fit forthemselves.

(17:30):
And so we get into fourdimensions.
Katie mentioned one of them,like how am I showing up?

SPEAKER_00 (17:35):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (17:36):
So I like to really, you know, say what's working and
what can be strengthened.
So Katie mentioned, you know,your yourself.
You can show up with a betterattitude, for example, your
role.
Maybe you're in the wrong roleand you want to use more
creative skills or strategicskills or technical skills.
Um, it also could be theenvironment.
Do you have the tools you need?

(17:56):
Do you have the resources youneed to do your job?
Are you working the hours thatare um compatible with your
life?
And I remember at Resource, wehad a lot of people asking us
for quiet space.
So we created a dedicatedconference room that could have
no music, no noise, no talking,no whatever.
So people could go and justthink and write.
And then the last is theorganization.

(18:17):
When you're really looking atthe organization, is like, do I
respect the leadership of thiscompany?
Do I align with at least some ofthe values?
And can I activate on one of thevalues that align with me so
that I'm finding more meaning inwhat I'm doing every day?
So we get into it in a lot moredetail, but that's some of the

(18:38):
ways that I I would I would lookat fit.

SPEAKER_03 (18:41):
That's a great framework and a way to think
about it.
It also kind of brings to mindto me from an employer
standpoint that I've neverthought about like turning on
myself is that, you know, whenyou're working with an employee
that maybe is struggling, um, agreat mentor of mine once said
it's always a skill, hill, orwill issue.
And as a former copywriter, Ialso just love that framework.
So skills, I mean, those skillscan be taught, right?

(19:04):
So if they're struggling withina certain skill, like they're
not doing it great.
This maybe it's not a fit forthem because the skill they're
lacking, but you can skill up.
Um, maybe it's a hill.
And a hill is sometimes anunseen obstacle.
It can be culture, it can becommunication, it could be
clarity of their roles andresponsibilities.
And he said, the one thing, andyou can overcome a hill.

(19:24):
Oh, hills can be overcome.
He's like, if you can identifyit, it can be overcome.
The one thing is the will.
If they just don't have thedrive, the will, the desire to,
like you said, how pay attentionto how they show up, then that
tells you a lot.
And so even as an employee, Icould definitely see myself
looking at my current role andsaying, okay, do I have the
skills?
Yeah.
Knowing most women that arelistening right now, they do,

(19:46):
probably in spades.
You know, hills, they probablygot quite a few of them.
Yeah.
But like, is that is there awill?
Like, is there a will toovercome, to take on those hills
that will make this the rightfit for them?
Yes.
Um, but I I love the frameworkyou all created as well.
That makes a lot of sense.

SPEAKER_02 (20:02):
Well, the will also makes me think it's more of a
culture fit.
Um, they just if they it's toyour point, if they don't want
to be there, like you could doyou could remove all the
barriers and you could give themall the support.
But if it if it's just notworking, it's not working.
That and it doesn't mean you'rea bad person or they're a bad
employer.
It just might mean it's not ait's not a fit.

SPEAKER_03 (20:24):
Not compatible, right?
It's like it's like any otherrelationship too.
I always like equate everythingabout work and jobs and hiring
and firing.
It's they're all relationshipsand you need that open, honest
transparency.
And yeah, sometimes you're justnot compatible.
And that's like that'sunfortunately, I think that
that's reason enough, if not oneof the biggest reasons, because
like we said, deep down from avalue standpoint, you're not

(20:47):
going to get them to shift andyou're not gonna, you're not
gonna shift, right?
So it's one of the things thatwe're gonna do.

SPEAKER_01 (20:51):
And we really argue in the book too, like you want
to be clear about this because alot of what happens.
I had a a CEO of a major pizzacompany ask me one time, he
goes, Why are women so likeheads down and they're doing
their work and they're reallyperforming?
And then one day they just getup and leave and they're pissed.
And I had a lot of answer I hada lot of answers for him.

(21:15):
But I think what I wouldencourage women to do is to
actually not be heads down andto be really clear about where
the fit is broken so that youcan focus on strengthening it
before you just bail to the nextjob.
Because what happens is thesethings just repeat themselves.
And so you're really justgrinding it out, same issues in

(21:36):
a different place withoutclarity about what you're
actually trying to strengthen inyour fit.

SPEAKER_03 (21:41):
That's a great advice.
I wholeheartedly am behind thatas well.
Yeah, because you don't need tobe running up against the same
brick wall over and over againif it can be like changed brick
by brick.
And you, if you again,communication, if you don't
communicate that, that's I thinkthat's where quiet quitting
comes from, right?
Is because there's thismisalignment, there's this lack
of communication.
Communication and you don't feellike you can make the statement

(22:03):
or share the sentiment.
And so yeah, you just work,work, work because we're all
highly responsible, highlycapable folks.
And then the next day they'relike, but I thought she loved
her job.
She did it and did it well anddidn't complain or have anything
to say.
And then she's gone.
That makes a lot of sense.
Makes a lot of sense.
But great question.
I mean, I'm glad he's asking.
At least he's seeing thepattern.
The question is, what's he gonnado about it?

(22:28):
All right, Kelly.
So you have built and um exiteda major agency, moved through
IBM, founded equipped women, andhave now written three books.
What does self-leadershipactually look like in the middle
of a big transition when youdon't have clarity yet?
Because clearly you've made alot of them.

SPEAKER_01 (22:48):
Well, I think that clarity evolves and it takes
time.
And so, like when I left IBM, Iliterally had no idea what I was
gonna do.
I had no plan.
And quite honestly, it wasdisorienting to go from a
jam-packed calendar that wasbooked every 15 minutes, which
you know I'm sure you relate to,to it being like wide open.
And, you know, you have to ask,like, who am I now?

(23:10):
And who am I next?
And and so I really sat withthat.
I mean, um, Katie will Katiewill laugh, but our dad always
used to say, Well, you have toget quiet to hear the answers.
And so, so that's really what Idid.
I really like just spent a lotof quiet time and tuned into my
energy and where it could takeme.
And I even did an energyreading.

(23:32):
I know that's very woo-woo.
With a medium for the blue here.
And she urged me to detach froman endpoint and a predetermined
physical manifestation.
And I thought that was sointeresting coming out of the
agency space where you're alwaysvery clear about the endpoint
and you always know what youhave to produce and deliver.

(23:53):
And so I had to really like sitwith that.
I didn't know really, reallywhat to do with that.
I was unclear.
And one of the things that I didis I wrote 100 thank you
letters.
I started to make a list of allthe people, and some of them
were senior to me, junior to me,peers to me, of people who
impacted my career.
And I was just grateful to haveworked with.

(24:15):
And I did that really just toput my gratitude into the
universe and to see what wouldhappen.
And what was kind of cool iswhat came back were so many
stories, so many stories of, youknow, maybe how I impacted them
or something I said had it umchanged the way they were
thinking.
And and it really started tomake me, then I was hearing

(24:36):
their stories and it made merealize, like, oh, this is so
energizing.
I now want to help womennavigate their careers and their
lives and realize that workdoesn't have to suck, and
there's a lot of joy that can befound in all of it, and that you
can, in fact, have a personallife too.
And so I just started to getbits of clarity, and we talk

(24:58):
about this in the book.
You don't have to know exactly,you just have to follow your
energy and and take aim in adirection and keep taking steps.
And so it's eight years later,and it's manifested in ways I
would have never in a millionyears imagined, and it's still
evolving.
And so I think leading yourselfdoesn't mean you have to have

(25:20):
the answers as much as you'researching for um the insight
into you're you're deepeningyour self-awareness so that
you're you're moving towardssomething that's inspiring and
exciting and empowering.

SPEAKER_02 (25:37):
I might add too, you might be listening to different
parts of yourself.
So um again, going back tocoaching, um, I think of it as
we have three centers ofintelligence, head, heart, and
body.
And we all over-index on one ofthose.
It's not a bad thing, it's justa pattern to watch.
And we tend to be very headfocused and try to think our way

(26:00):
through.
And so if you start listening toother parts of yourself, well,
what does your heart reallywant?
What is your gut telling you?
And it might seem again woo-woo,but we're here for the woo.
Um, you have and it might bevery unfamiliar to a lot of
people.
They might try to tune intothose centers and they might be
like, I don't know, I don't knowwhat it's saying.

(26:21):
And that's okay.
It's a practice to become moreattuned to what all three parts
of ourselves are saying.

SPEAKER_03 (26:30):
I love that.
And I think this is alwayssomething that a soapbox I'm
willing to jump on.
Intuition, um, we call it woo,but it's deep knowledge within
our body from a cellularstandpoint.
We know that trauma lives withinour DNA and our cells.
We know that the body keeps thescore.
Um, and there's so much workthat our subconscious is doing.

(26:51):
And you're right, I think beingbody, mind, heart, gut aware is
so essential.
And sometimes we do cast it offas woo, but there is absolute
science behind having anunderstanding of your body and
your intuition.
Because even as we're talking toeach other and listening to
people, the way they look at us,their body language, our body

(27:11):
language, all of it, there's somuch information being exchanged
that we're not even consciouslyaware of.
And I think we diminish that,but I think it's honestly a
superpower for sure.
Um, another fun rabbit hole I'vebeen going down lately is a
human design, um, which is allabout understanding your
authority type and things likethat.
I'm sacral, and that's reallyhelped me um guide me in a way

(27:35):
that's more aligned.
And, you know, for whateverreasons, if again, it's one of
those things.
That one, I don't know how muchscience is backing it, but I
think if anything, it's puttingme back more in touch with my
gut and my intuition.
Because I look back over mycareer, big agencies, small
agencies, you know,billion-dollar clients, tiny
little clients, a ton of likeinterpersonal things within the

(27:57):
company.
And I look back and I think, wasmy gut really ever wrong?
And the answer is no.

SPEAKER_01 (28:03):
The answer is my business partner used to always
say, whenever she stoppedtrusting her gut, things started
to go sideways.
And um, your your community whohas children may appreciate that
um you can also cultivate thisin your kids.
And I can remember mypediatrician um telling me,
like, uh when I shared anexample with my son when he was

(28:25):
two, and he would just slam thedoor when he didn't want to play
with a neighbor kid.
And I was like, Oh, I'm soembarrassed and I don't know
what to do.
And she said, Kelly, he'sdeveloping instinct and you need
to let that develop be.
And I said, Yeah, but I don'twant bad manners.
And she said, That's different.
And so she said, you can teachhim to say, I don't feel like

(28:49):
playing today, and that's okay,and we'll play later or another
day.
And he's not allowed to slam thedoor, he's not allowed to be
mean.
But if you force him to go play,now you're teaching him not to
trust his instincts when he wasreally feeling not interested in
doing that, and that maybe hefelt afraid or at risk or

(29:11):
something, which you know, heended up getting his teeth
bruised and knocked out andother things from this
particular kid.
So his instincts weren't thatgood, even though they would be
were friends.
And so I think it's really agreat reminder that yeah,
trusting your instincts andcultivating the instincts in our
kids is really important.

SPEAKER_02 (29:31):
And some people who don't um tune into their
instincts, I would be one ofthem for most of my life, they
don't even know what that means.
And but but interestingly, likeI'm somebody who earlier in my
life was very analytical and umkind of cerebral about decisions
and also looking at the city.
She was a former attorney.

(29:52):
Um, and like getting all theopinions and like, well, what do
what do I think?
And but interestingly, like someof the biggest decisions I've
made in my life have beeninstinctive.
So um stopping being attorney,um, leaving Ohio, moving to
California, leaving Californiaor leaving San Francisco, moving
to Santa Barbara.
Um, I didn't have it all figuredout at all.

(30:15):
But I knew, like you weresaying, like this deeper
knowledge and wisdom, I couldfeel it, I could sense it.
And it doesn't mean everythingworks out and it's all going to
be perfect, but I could it wassomething I couldn't explain.
I just knew.

SPEAKER_03 (30:31):
Yeah.
I think too, it's like sometimesI think I've followed my gut and
some chaos has ensued.
But I think also for me, withthis going back to this
question, is that I kind of jokeand say from kick from clear
from chaos comes clarity.
It is in those moments where Iam being absolutely pressure
tested, where all of a sudden,like everything in the world

(30:51):
makes sense.
As soon as I can take a momentand step out of the chaos and do
what you're talking about,Kelly, where I'm just in the
stillness, that's really wherethe answers are.
But it's not in the constantstillness.
It is the boat getting the hellrocked out of it.
But as soon as I can have aminute to just look at the
horizon and see what justhappened, I'll be like, wow, I
actually know something veryimportant now.

(31:14):
And there was a big price to payto get it, but it was like worth
the chaos to have that clarity.

SPEAKER_02 (31:19):
Yeah.
Claire's asking a question.
If I if I could take a minute torespond to Kelly, you might have
um different responses.
So she's asking, what are thefirst few steps into finding the
instinct inside of yourself?
Stillness.
And I would say, yes, stillness,and um and deep stillness.
This might might not be 30seconds, it might be five

(31:42):
minutes or or longer, but alsoum look really tuning in and
asking yourself the question,you know, and asking the
different centers.
So um, is moving to Californiathe right thing for me?
Um, and I might even touch myhead, you know, what is my head,
just to kind of um have agesture towards it or a movement

(32:04):
towards it, and I and I'll letmy head answer it.
And then I'll, and that's theeasy part.
Then I'll go to my heart and Imight put my hands on my heart
and I'm gonna have to sit withit.
It might, it might take aminute, two minutes, and I might
get it, I don't know.
Um, and then I'll go to my gutand I'll ask the same question,
but it's a practice that we'redeveloping in ourselves.

(32:26):
So if you don't get clarityright away, don't freak out.
It's more about the practice ofum attuning to the different
centers and listening and andfor a sense, it might be more
like a felt sense.

SPEAKER_03 (32:41):
I love it.
That's great advice.
And thank you for asking thequestion, Claire.
And I wholeheartedly agree withyou, Katie.
I think the reason why stillnessworks and is the best is because
our our whole world is full ofso much noise.
You know, you're not gonna getclarity scrolling through
Instagram.
I'm sorry.
You're not going to get answersfrom consulting every single

(33:05):
friend, family member, which iswhat we tend to do.
I mean, even a pros-cons list,you know, all you're doing is
evaluating and in the thought inthe head versus truly sitting in
the silence and letting all theother noise fall away to be able
to hear your true voice.
I think that that's something alot of us struggle with, right?
Is like hearing our own honestopinion because a lot of us have

(33:27):
been conditioned to constantlybe considering everyone and
everything else.
And we will put all of thatfirst.
So it's like without thatstillness, like, I don't know
how you hear that.

SPEAKER_01 (33:36):
You know?
Well, and we wrote this book umspecifically to address what
Claire is asking.
So in all the different issuesthat we cover, there's very
specific step-by-step actions totake, which you've seen, Amy.
And then every chapter concludeswith one simple think about it
question.
So it's a very thoughtful,reflective question, just one.

(34:00):
And then another part that saysmake a move, and it's just one
small thing you can do next.
And so it the whole idea is toget people to be thoughtful and
self-reflective, but then inmove into action.

SPEAKER_03 (34:14):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I love that practice.
It reminds me a little bit ofour ask and give exchange that
we do within our community,whether it's online or in
person.
You know, you make the question,you state the ask, people give
advice, and then we don't letyou off the hook.
We're like, okay, now what areyou going to do with this
advice?
You know, where what's that nextstep?
Um, and that accountability issometimes hard, but you know,

(34:35):
you should look to your friendsto help you with that.
All right, let's talk aboutgetting in the game.
Since we've talked to some ofthe other sections, and up you
emphasize getting in the gameand learning the unwritten rules
of the workplace.
For women in digital marketingadvertising specifically, who
often have the skills but feellike they're playing by their
rules that maybe they were nevertaught.
What is one unwritten rule thatthey need to know about right

(34:58):
now?

SPEAKER_01 (34:59):
One unwritten rule is that you have to have
visibility to senior leaders.
You have to make this apriority.
And it's not sucking up, it'sbeing strategic about getting
sponsors.
Because if you've seen therecent research, McKinse came
out with they say for everysponsor you have, which is a
senior person advocating for youbehind closed doors, it

(35:21):
increases your chances of beingpromoted by 10%.
So if you have four seniorsponsors, your chances of being
promoted has now been increasedby 40%.
Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_02 (35:32):
That's incredible.
I didn't know that statistic.
And for the record, I didn'teven know what a sponsor was
when I was, you know, in my 30sand 40s.
So um, and that kind of relatesto how I would answer it.
I the unwritten rule I want tounderscore is that the workplace
is a game.
And I encourage women to get init.
Uh, I used to kind of complainto Kelly uh because when she was

(35:55):
in Ohio and I was in Californiaand I'd have uh some drama, I'd
be telling her about what wasgoing on at work, and I'd be so
overwhelmed and frustrated, andshe would say, Katie, it's work,
it's not home.
Um, and so for years, like Ithought doing great work and
outworking everyone was gonna beenough.
And I was just so naive.
You have to learn how thebusiness works, you have to

(36:15):
build relationships, you have toadvocate yourself, and you have
to make strategic moves toadvance.
Nobody's gonna like serve it upto you.

SPEAKER_03 (36:24):
That's both of those fantastic advice.
Um, similar thing when I wasdoing some research for my book
was about how, and it sucks tohear it, but women don't climb
the ranks by leading projects oreven necessarily having like
full-on like relationships withsenior leadership.
It's definitely the sponsors,it's the it's the third-party

(36:45):
referral.
It's the people speaking ournames and the rooms that we're
not in are what give us thecredibility and the opportunity
by far, you know.
And so that's just the realityof it.
So to your point too, Katie,it's like how do you play that
game?

SPEAKER_01 (36:58):
How do you make sure that inspiration's known?
Because that's it.
I can remember being in so manymeetings and you know, at IBM,
it was a huge company, and wehad I don't know, maybe 800
people or so in our area we'reresponsible for it.
So imagine each person's name ison a spreadsheet and you're
going down and you're looking atwhether they've checked all the

(37:18):
boxes for promotion, but thensomebody might weigh in and say,
Oh, well, she just had anotherbaby, so she now has two kids.
She's not going to want to moveto a new location and take on a
bigger role.
And I can remember going, Do weknow that?
And so my point with thatexample is your aspirations need

(37:38):
to be known that you want tomove up, that you want to
advance, that you want moreresponsibility, that you're open
to moving.
Or quite honestly, if you'renot, then that's okay too.
But don't assume they know whatyour aspirations are.

SPEAKER_03 (37:54):
I live that exactly, Kelly.
I had just come back from MattLeave, but before I went, I
helped win a bank, like one ofthe largest national banks, um,
as a part of a pitch.
And when I came back, I learnedI wasn't going to be the
assigned creative director onit.
And the resource manager told meliterally it was because she
just assumed since I had a babyand they were on the West Coast,

(38:17):
they're like, She's not gonnawant to travel at all.
And I said, Did you ever thinkto ask me that?
Oh I killed myself on thatpitch.
And I loved the clients and theyloved me, and I was just like, I
was so devastated.
So yeah, I that's great advice.
You can't just assume, and youcan't assume everyone knows
either.
So if you aren't clear aboutyour intentions, your desires,
your goals, the opportunitiesthat you want to be considered

(38:38):
for, it's just not gonna happen.
It's just not gonna happen.
And you have to be bold aboutit.
I also remember I was a searchcopywriter at uh Team Detroit,
which is now I think GBT orsomething else altogether.
I don't know, these agencieschanged names by the week.
Um, and I was just kind of likegetting through bulk sheets and
writing SEO copy, and I reallywanted the chance to do

(39:00):
something more creative.
And so I just got ballsy andduring an agency presentation, I
walked up to the guy that headedup affiliate marketing and was
like, I want a chance to pitchideas on your next campaign
because they were doing all thepartner, fun partner stuff.
And he was like, Yeah, sure.
Come along to the kickoff, I'llgive you the brief and you guys
can pitch.
If something gets through, itgets through.

(39:20):
If not, you tried.
That's how I ended up within ayear of working at an agency,
like writing and directing myfirst TV spot that was for ESPN
and Ford.
I was like, it was so crazy.
And it's literally just becauseI got the guts to get up and
just go talk to the man and belike, hey, I want a shot at
this, you know?
I mean, all the kids can do issay no.
Like I just want something morethan SEO to work on because that

(39:43):
was like nightmare city.
All right.
So the next uh question I havefor you is that the book is very
intentional about saying thereare no shoulds, no one path or
pace, which I love that idea.
It's important, I think, becausewe spend a lot of time
comparing.
In a community like ours wherewomen are constantly
benchmarking themselves againsteach other.

(40:05):
How do you practice that in reallife?

SPEAKER_02 (40:08):
I think your question is really uh important
in the way that you phrase itbecause you said practice.
And that's exactly what it is.
Um so I've been doing yoga for along time, and one of my
favorite instructors in SanFrancisco used to say, stay on
your own mat.
So it's easy to look at theperson next to you in a yoga

(40:29):
class and think, oh, they'restronger, they're more flexible,
oh, they they're more advanced.
But maybe they've beenpracticing for 30 years and you
just started, or maybe they'rejust super flexible.
Um, but it really doesn'tmatter.
Uh their body, their experienceis their own.
And the same is true in work andlife.
Like I'm on my own path, I'mhaving my own timeline, I have

(40:51):
my own values, my own strengths,um, different circumstances.
Um, I can definitely look atsomebody next to me and admire
and be inspired by someone.
So you can look at somebody, butI actively practice not
comparing myself to them.
And it is a practice.
Like sometimes I get hooked, anda lot of the people that I used

(41:13):
to work with, they're now, Imean, I could count off 20
people that are CEOs, CMOs, um,big wigs and lots of major
companies, and I'll see LinkedInannouncements, and a little
piece of me, my ego, will likeget a little bit hooked, and I
have to practice, and I'll say,Katie, you chose a different
path.
Like you could have had that andyou didn't want it.

(41:35):
Um, so it's a practice.

SPEAKER_04 (41:38):
That's kind of a good idea.

SPEAKER_01 (41:39):
So, do you know how hard it is to write a book, a
career book that's meant to helpwomen advance and not use the
word should?
And even though we declared itat the onset, because I had a
coach 20 plus years ago whoreally encouraged us to become
aware of the word.
And so that's what I would sayto everybody is when you use the

(42:01):
word or hear other people usethe word, like stop in your
tracks and then really ask whatis it that I want or need, and
not what other people want orneed.
And then you'll notice in thebook we use words like can,
might, consider, explore, will,like all these words that are
very purposely chosen becauseeverybody's path and pace is

(42:26):
different.
You know, I took a period of mylife where I took four years and
worked part-time.
A lot of people don't evenrealize that because it wasn't
really a thing.
Like I worked four days, and myhusband worked four days, and we
wanted to do that to have moresense of family and learn how to
be parents, quite honestly.

(42:47):
And so we just strippedeverything out of our lives.
We didn't have cable ormagazines or vacations or any of
the things so that we couldafford to do that.
And that goes back to a choice.
But um, my point being is then Idecided, okay, after four years,
now I'm ready to accelerate.
And that was a completelydifferent, you know, way for me

(43:09):
to show up in the world.
Like I want, I am gonna travel,I am gonna work longer.
And I wanted to do that.
It wasn't I should do it.
And so I think that, and we getinto this in the book too, like
to help people realize likecareers are gonna be like 50
years, and even if your career's40 years, like, think about
that.
Like that's four or fivedecades, which means you can't

(43:33):
have your foot on the pedal allthe time.
And also that careers takedifferent shapes.
And we identify like 10 shapesin the book, but there's
probably many more.
And the point in doing that ishelping people realize like, oh,
I don't have to do what somebodyelse is doing.
I can create my own shape and Ican go at my own pace.

(43:55):
And I think, you know, with thattime horizon in mind of a 40 or
50 year career.
career, it helps you keep it inperspective, like to just like
dial down the angst a littlebit.
Like, you know, I think we allhave a little too much angst
that we aren't doing more soonenough.
And um I think there's a life islong.

(44:15):
And um so that's what I wouldencourage people to just like
chill out a little bit.

SPEAKER_03 (44:21):
Right?
Take a breath, live your life.
Oh god FOMO.
And it's hard, right?
And they say it often too,right?
Comparison is a thief of joy.
But I also will say a lot oftimes to people, especially
women I'm coaching that, youknow, also listen to your envy.
Like it's it's telling yousomething, right?
When you see that, you're like,I to me, instead of sitting
there and getting jealous orresentful of another person or

(44:41):
woman or whatever, I'll be like,what is it about what she's
representing that I don't feellike I'm getting that I maybe
need or I'll really think aboutit and be like, it's not really
what I want or need.
It's just I'm I'm admiring her,you know?
Yeah.
I think pausing and asking thosekinds of questions is about what
is it that I'm wanting from thisthat I'm not getting has really

(45:01):
helped me kind of get over thatcomparison trap and out of the
shoulds.
You know, because as well tooit's like is it maybe just
because it looks good on paper,it sounds good and it looks good
in a picture.

SPEAKER_02 (45:13):
And is it the ego like do you really want it?
Because most things are not azero sum game.
If somebody else has somethingit doesn't mean that you can't
have it too whether it's a jobor a relationship or a house or
whatever.
So I think that I love whatyou're saying listen to the envy
because is it is it ego or doyou really want that?
Yeah.
And if you really want it thenthen take some steps to make

(45:37):
that happen.

SPEAKER_03 (45:37):
Exactly because I think sometimes too we're
there's some sometimes I thinkthere's shame behind wanting,
right?
So you'll see something thatanother woman's doing and you'll
be like oh gosh she has this andthat and then it's like okay
well listen to my envy it'stelling me what I want and it's
sometimes that's a hard thing tocome to grabs with.
But it's like something thatmaybe you don't think you should

(45:58):
want but you do want.

unknown (46:00):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (46:01):
Yeah.
Well this is why what whenworking with a coach is so
valuable I can remember one ofthe coaches I had who you know
basically said I'm just gonnasay it out loud I value money.
And I remember that juststopping me in my tracks like am
I allowed to value money?
I think women were allowed tovalue money.
And isn't that bad?

(46:22):
And then like helping us all ofus learn that it's you know for
example in that instance moneyis a tool and you can want and
you can be inspired by whatother people have and instead of
viewing it as envy view it asinspiration.
And so when you start to reframethings then it feels very

(46:42):
motivating.

SPEAKER_02 (46:45):
Agreed one thing I wanted to say to on this topic
too is that we wrote the book umto help people explore what's
right for them.
I don't know what's right foryou.
I don't know what's right forKelly I don't know what's right
for my coaching clients I cantell you what I'm hearing in
your your sharing with me I canhear I can tell you what I'm not

(47:07):
hearing.
I can um help you see newpossibilities I can help you
reflect um but I can't tell youwhat's right for you and by the
way even if I did I don't livewith those consequences so Kelly
was really insistent on notbeing um dictating well this is
the way to do it.
Yes the whole thing is abouthelping raise um the reader's

(47:31):
self-awareness and exploringwhat is right for them and then
how to take action.

SPEAKER_03 (47:37):
Love it love it love it love it.
Well I'm gonna I'm gonna finishoff with this one last question
and then we'll jump in.
I know we started a few minuteslate we'll jump in to do the
power round questions as wellbut listening audience if you
have other questions feel freeto chime in.
If a woman in our communitypicks up your book um this week
or I guess next week technicallyum starting stuck stalled

(47:58):
spinning or soaring what is theone thing that you want her to
walk away with knowing that shedidn't know before she opened
that book I want her to knowthat she has more power within
her than she realizes to createthe career in life she desires I
hope women walk away seeing morepossibilities for themselves and

(48:22):
more and experiencing moreclarity on how to act on those
possibilities love it love itlove it especially the action
part right nothing happensotherwise all right let's go
into our power round questionsreal quick I took a quick chat
la peek at the chat and it'sit's quiet right now but if you
guys have any questions jump in.
You wrote the playbook that youwish you'd had I know that you
guys led with that.

(48:43):
What is one rule um in that umthat took you the longest to
learn for yourself?
Like what was the hardest onefor you all?

SPEAKER_02 (48:54):
Well cultivate champions there's a whole
chapter on that and I was sayingearlier I didn't even know
sponsors existed and that youneeded them.
So I was so naive for years andthought doing great work was
enough and I underestimated howmuch you need mentors, sponsors,
advocates in general becausethey really become your PR team.

unknown (49:15):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (49:16):
Yeah I would say related and build your network
and I was clueless about thisuntil probably my mid to late
30s and I ended up hiring a headof business development who was
amazing.
And quite honestly she justtaught me the ropes and I can
remember thinking how would Iget this far 15 years into my
career and it never occurred tome to build my network or how to

(49:40):
do that.
And so we create a bunch oftools to help make it easy for
people but I think that that's athe one that took me the longest
to even be tuned into.

SPEAKER_04 (49:48):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (49:49):
I agree.
Well that's totally what's ledto the inspiration for the thing
I've been working on which isclosing the networking gap for
women because it is like thatexpedited path in the sense that
people don't realize the powerof it because then what's
wonderful about your networknetwork as you build it is it
becomes your community, itbecomes your safe space, it
becomes your sponsors, yoursupporters, your champions and
what's amazing is yourreputation precedes you like you

(50:12):
don't have to try to sellyourself.
Everybody knows that referralsare the way to go.
And instead you just end uphaving all these people
constantly wonderful alignedpeople coming your way because
of referrals and it's just sucha good way to go.
So yeah I think that there's somuch reason to get behind you
know sponsors, champions andbuilding your network it's huge.

(50:34):
It's going to help you go far.
All right I'm gonna have each ofyou take a turn and filling in
the blank the biggest thingstanding between most women and
their career the career thatthey want is blank.

SPEAKER_02 (50:44):
Uh saying what they want out loud and then saying it
again to people who can helpthem.

SPEAKER_00 (50:51):
Love it.
What about you Kelly?

SPEAKER_03 (50:53):
I would say the act of thinking bigger love it I
would throw one in and sayyourself I feel like that's the
case with a lot of things in mylife I'm like what's the biggest
obstacle here?
Me.

SPEAKER_01 (51:11):
All right Kelly what is one thing that Katie taught
you about leadership ah well Imean Katie's taught hundreds of
courses to thousands ofprofessionals and she has a
great way of making them feelseen and acknowledging their
contributions and theirengagement and you know making

(51:31):
um material and accessible andactionable to others and you
know just showing up in a veryuh constructive and positive
way.
Wonderful.

SPEAKER_02 (51:42):
Flip side all right your turn Katie what is coming
on this won't be surprising atlistening to Kelly talk in this
conversation and knowing thatshe's written three books and
achieved all the things that shehas achieved but she's
incredibly tenacious.
So if something doesn't work shedoes not give up I don't know if
this is coming from her trainingas a designer but she will

(52:04):
rethink a problem adjust herapproach and keep going and she
doesn't get caught up in her egothat it didn't work.
She'll just try something else.
And she has remarkable enduranceso I've seen both of these
qualities um over and over inher career and her life.

SPEAKER_03 (52:21):
I love it.
That's fantastic.
All right up lunches on July 2ndwhat does moving up mean to each
of you right now personally Ithink a lot of women will relate
to this so for me up is becomingmore comfortable using my voice
more publicly so self-promotionis not a natural thing for me.

SPEAKER_02 (52:42):
It's not something I really enjoy but I know that if
you want to help peoplevisibility matters.
So that's what I'm focusing on.

SPEAKER_01 (52:50):
So speaking up is um and standing up is for Katie and
you'll see in the book we talkabout up means so many things.
But for me it really meansmoving up and impact.
I mean I set out this crazy goalas um Jim Collins used to call
it a big hairy audacious goalthe B Hag B Hag um is to impact

(53:12):
the uh trajectory the careertrajectories of um one million
women so um we got a lot of workto do but you're on the right
track and you're definitelygetting there.

SPEAKER_03 (53:24):
All right if you guys don't mind me hanging for
just a minute I did see onequestion come through.
Of course so money being adriver is very real we all know
that having to go back to theworkforce due to slowness when
having the momentum ofentrepreneuring in the last year
and helping others out what isone way to reflect and not lose
that momentum while getting backto a nine to five one of our
listeners is asking so the notlosing the momentum for just for

(53:52):
the entrepreneurship is what Ibelieve.

SPEAKER_01 (53:54):
Like so it's kind of like you've got that side hustle
and now you're making that sidehustle a thing but then because
money the need for stability etcand Claire you can jump in and
tell me if I'm wrong or not butthen it's like how do you keep
that momentum of um theentrepreneuring while possibly
having to do the nine to five aswell yeah so basically whole

(54:17):
having two things that aredemanding your time and your
energy and I mean this is it ifthe if the goal is for the side
hustle to become the real thing,then I would advise taking a job
that might be slightly less thanwhat you can really do and in

(54:37):
its fullest sense.
So if you're really you know adirector in a company maybe the
senior manager is the job you dofor a while.
I mean we had people do thatwhen they were getting their
full-time MBA it's like okay Iused to be in charge of all
these things and now I'm gonnabe have a smaller scope.
So that's kind of one of theways I mean the other thing is
you don't always have tooverdeliver.

(54:58):
So if your real passion is theside hustle you don't have to
overdeliver in your primary job.
Now every employer wants to youknow not hear me say that but um
but also um that's kind of thereality if you're not if your
goal isn't to move up in thatorganization.
If your goal is to move up intothat organization then you need

(55:20):
to figure out how this the sidehustle is not interfering with
that.
And so you're only doing that inevenings or you're only doing
that on weekends.
And and so you have to decidewhat your goal is at the end of
the day.
Which one are you trying toexcel in and then find ways of
of giving that more of your umtime and attention.
Katie what would you say?

SPEAKER_02 (55:41):
I'd say it it sounds to me through the question that
the side hustle is more thepassion.
And so to keep the momentum thatthe person she's already
achieved I would say it's aboutconsistency.
So whether it's 15 minutes a dayor um an hour every Wednesday
like I would put it in yourcalendar of time that you're

(56:04):
going to devote to the sidehustle.
And I would also for me whatI've learned about myself is
when is my best thinking time?
When am I at my best?
And I'm at my best for likeheavy thinking in the morning.
And so if it depending on whattask is required I would try to
dedicate time and put it in yourcalendar so that um you see it

(56:27):
and it's it remains a priorityand then you it's it's and so
it's going to be the consistencyof maintaining the momentum.

SPEAKER_03 (56:36):
I love it.
Both of those pieces all of thatis such good advice I met a guy
once who um we were both in thesame um grant awarded group um
for Main Street ventures and heliterally launched his company
while working at PNG and um hisjob was like he's like my job
was easy for me it was simple Ikept to the nine to five I did

(56:58):
it well I did it well enough butthen this was my passion.
And I just again talking aboutaudacity I think sometimes we
struggle with that as women wehave to like overdeliver at work
and give 110% all the time buteven our 90% is most people's
100% so I that's such greatadvice and I've actually never
heard anybody just say it outloud.

(57:19):
So all right ladies we are attime sadly although we could
keep talking forever I feel likeum thank you both so much this
is the conversation um and thetools that our community
definitely runs on um it's areminder that self-leadership
isn't a title you earn it's apractice that you choose that
clarity comes before confidenceum that there's no one path no

(57:41):
one pace the only shoulds thatmatter is the one that you
decide for yourself.
I love that portion of talkingabout the shoulds and the the
choices up is a playbook forevery woman on the rise.
It's available June 2nd as Ishared and honestly you all
should just go pre-order it now.
This is the book you buy foryourself and then immediately
buy for every woman that youcare about.
And it's got actionable elementsto it which we always need to

(58:04):
put in the practice rightbecause this is for us.
No one's going to do it for us.
No one's coming to save usnobody's coming with the golden
ticket.
We've got to do it forourselves.
So you can find Kelly and Katieon equippedwomen.com and be sure
to subscribe to Kelly's GetEquipped newsletter for weekly
career insights that are alwayshit different.
And if you're not yet a part ofour community with Together
Digital come find us againtogether in digital.com whether

(58:27):
you're starting stuck stalled orsoaring there's a seat for the
at this table always for all ofyou.
Until next time everyone keepasking keep giving and keep
growing we'll see you soon byebye produced by Heartcast Media