June 15, 2026 • 49 mins
What happens when a digital strategist stops fighting reality and starts leading from it.
There are conversations that feel like a strategy session and a therapy session at the same time. This one was both. Mary Brodie came into the Power Lounge and did something rare. She made acceptance sound like the most powerful leadership move you can make.
If you work in digital, lead a team, or run your own business, you know the pressure to chase the aspirational audience, the perfect product, the frictionless experience. Mary has spent over 20 years helping companies stop chasing and start seeing. And what she has found is that the women in digital who thrive are the ones who learn to work with what is, not just what they wish were true.
Mary Brodie is the Founder and Digital Experience Strategist at Gearmark, a consultancy she has built over two decades across apps, websites, content strategy, lead generation, and full digital experience design. She holds a BA and MA from Simmons College, a certificate from MIT, and an Executive Master's in Corporate Communications from IE University in Madrid. She is currently pursuing her doctorate at Case Western Reserve University, where her research explores how B2B buying teams build relationships with supplier salespeople.
Key Takeaways
Acceptance is not passive. It is the foundation of every smart business decision, from knowing your real customers to building a team that actually trusts each other.
Your digital experience reflects your internal experience. If your employees are disengaged, that bleeds into every customer touchpoint, every chatbot, every support call.
Women in digital and female entrepreneurs online often chase aspirational audiences instead of maximizing the ones they already have. The brands that win know exactly who their customer is and own it.
AI is a tool, not a replacement. Using it well means knowing what question you are actually trying to answer and what data you are feeding it.
The most underrated skill in women leadership and digital marketing for women is listening. Not the performative kind. The kind where you feel something shift in the room.
Mary Brodie said, "Accept yourself and make sure that you're happy with what you're doing and what your output is. Not your perfect foot. Your best foot."
Mary Brodie said, "Once you accept that we don't all share the same values, the world becomes a very different place. And it's not a scary place. It's just a different place. And a lot of the world becomes a lot clearer."
Timestamps
00:00 Welcome to the Power Lounge.
01:51 Twenty years of entrepreneurship. What keeps Mary going.
04:26 Why Mary kept going back to school, MIT, Simmons, Madrid.
07:37 Being the only American in the room. What that taught her.
09:41 Customer experience and employee experience are the same problem.
13:10 How to know if your company actually has a digital experience.
16:33 AI and digital strategy. Tool or replacement.
21:00 What gets in the way of leaders communicating their vision clearly.
26:54 What a broken internal experience is costing your organization right now.
31:08 The Art of Acceptance. What it means as a leadership practice.
40:04 What Mary looks for before any strategy or deliverable.
41:19 One shift for every woman in the audience.
42:37 Power Round. Rapid fire with Mary Brodie.
Connect with Mary Brodie
Email: mfbrodie@gearmark.com
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/marybrodie
Website: gearmark.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_02 (00:00):
Almost every day.
Hello, entrepreneurship.
Um, there's always something,and there's always um, I'd say
I'd say there there are momentswhere I do wonder like, what am
I doing and why?
I get disturbed hearing how AIbecomes people's friends.
That's not what it is.
(00:20):
Companies forget that we're thatcompanies are made of people,
right?
Customers are people, youremployees are people.
And um without customers, thelights don't stay on.
I walk around perpetuallyconfused all day.
I swear.
Everyone, I go into meetings andI just go, I don't understand,
or I'm confused.
And I swear everyone's wonders,how does she exist?
(00:43):
I think a challenging line we'vebeen we've been fed is like the
idea that the world works foryou.
And I found it light, itlightened my load to let that
go.
SPEAKER_01 (01:04):
Hello everyone, and welcome to our weekly power
lounge.
This is your place to hearauthentic conversations from
those who have power to share.
My name is Amy Vaughn, and I amthe owner and chief empowerment
officer of Together Digital, adiverse and collaborative
community of women who choose toshare their knowledge, power,
and connections.
You can join the movement atTogetherIndigital.com.
(01:26):
Here's what I love about today'sguest.
She has built something that haslasted more than two decades,
and she did it by payingattention to the things that
most people overlook.
Mary Brodie is the founder anddigital experience strategist at
GearMark, a consultancy whereshe has grown for over 20 years
across apps, websites, contentstrategies, lead generation, and
(01:46):
full digital experience design.
But what sets Mary apart most isthat she doesn't just care about
the customer experience.
She works just as hard on what'shappening inside of
organizations.
She partners with leaders tohelp them get clear on their
vision, communicate to theirteams, and build the kind of
collaboration that actuallysticks.
Mary studied at MIT, holds a BAand A and MA from Simons
(02:09):
College, and has earned anexecutive master's in corporate
communications from IEUniversity in Madrid.
And if that wasn't enough, sheis currently pursuing her
doctorate.
Holla hala, yay for researchapproval today.
Big news.
We'll chat about that at CaseWestern Reserve University,
where she uh her researchexplores how B2B buying teams
(02:30):
build relationships withsupplier people, salespeople,
which tells you everything abouthow deeply she thinks about the
human dynamic behind businessdecisions.
She brings serious intellectualrigor to deeply human work,
which is what we love.
And today she's about to bringboth into the conversation about
acceptance, listening, andfinding it more easy in work in
(02:50):
life.
Mary, welcome to the PowerLounge.
SPEAKER_02 (02:54):
Thank you, Amy.
It's awesome to be here.
SPEAKER_01 (02:56):
All right, Mary, you have spent 20 plus years
building one thing that isincreasingly rare.
What was the moment or theseason in which you almost
didn't keep going?
And what did you tell yourselfthat made the difference?
SPEAKER_02 (03:11):
So um, I'll be honest, almost every day.
Hello, entrepreneurship.
Um, there's always something,and there's always um, I'd say,
I'd say there there are momentswhere I do wonder like, what am
I doing and why?
And usually what brings me backis um is my clients and watching
(03:33):
what they're um what they'reachieving and what they're able
and how they're able to engagewith their customers better, or
we we are able to have abreakthrough in some way.
Um I'd say that's really whatkeeps me what keeps me going and
keeps me working on what I'mworking on.
SPEAKER_01 (03:53):
Um and keeps me driven.
But it's every day.
Every day.
No, it's so true.
I think I joke oftentimes andsay like entrepreneurship and
running your own business iskind of like a marriage.
It's like a choice every day.
You wake up and you're like, I Icould just quit.
I could just quit.
But no, like you choose to keepshowing up, you choose to get
(04:14):
keep going.
Or like my friend Crystal, whoowns two businesses, often says,
I just quit every day.
And then I decide to come backand rehire myself.
SPEAKER_02 (04:23):
You know, what what I think we don't realize is that
you could go off and work forsomeone else, but then you look
at how they're controlling, andthis is the way I saw it, and
this is why I started going offon my own, right?
Um, they're controlling youremployment, right?
And they're making thatdecision.
And in today's world, um thereasons why you can be let go
(04:45):
are can be trivial almost.
Oh, absolutely.
Um, so at least you have morecontrol over your life and where
you're going with it.
Um, and I think one of thethings too that I enjoy um being
on on being like in my ownbusiness is um I know that my
(05:06):
clients have other choices andwhy they're choosing me, if that
makes sense.
Um, so every day is almost likewhen some when people who work
in companies will tell me, like,oh, well, what about a
performance review?
I'm like, that's every day.
Yeah.
Because they could choosesomeone else, right?
They don't have to come back.
Even mid-project, they couldsay, We've had enough of you.
Um, but they don't, right?
(05:27):
And they stick around foractually um in some cases with
clients a long, long time.
SPEAKER_01 (05:30):
So that's great.
That's fantastic.
Another thing that you share incommon with a lot of our
community is that continuededucation and constant learning
mindset, which I think isfantastic.
And you've clearly, as I readbefore, you know, have invested
a lot in your education acrossthe stretch of your career,
whether it was MIT, Simmons, andthen the master's in Madrid, not
your PhD.
(05:50):
What is it that you're searchingfor each time you go back to
further educate yourself?
SPEAKER_02 (05:56):
Yeah, so um I first got the master's because I
originally wanted to be anacademic.
And um, I couldn't determinewhat I wanted to focus on for a
PhD at the time.
And my advisor said to me, youneed to get a job.
And after the shock of like, Igotta get a job, right?
(06:17):
I have to feel in the realworld.
Oh my God, right?
So scary.
Um but you know, I didn'trealize at the time, because uh
at the time a lot of people toldme, like, oh, a master's in
English, it's what can you dowith that?
And I have to say, I use itevery day.
Oh yeah.
Like what, you know, we're toldthat the world is based on, you
(06:39):
know, the and yes, it is, it'sbottom line and numbers and all
that, but stories andstorytelling.
And that's where I kind of seeum what a master's of English
can do for you, right?
And I went back for the degreeum at IE University, um, mainly
because what I noticed in my inmy work was when you start
(07:01):
working on like social mediacampaigns, those are
communication campaigns, andespecially in the world of
technology, um a lot of peoplelearned as they went along at
work, which is great, and to beself-trained, but at the same
time, there are certain gaps.
And I realized that's why I wentback to school, so I can get
that more complete training ofhow should this really work.
(07:21):
And also understanding that wewe are, and it kind of leads to
like how where we are today withum with AI, right?
And conversational UI.
Um at the time I startedrealizing like, hey, social
media, it's all conversations,and that's where things are
going.
Like we are gonna have moreconversations, and it is
worthwhile for me to betterunderstand how do communications
(07:44):
work in a in a business.
Again, the more formaleducation.
And what I the the bonus part ofthe education that I got that I
didn't realize I was gonna getwas being the only American in
the class.
SPEAKER_03 (07:56):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (07:57):
Um, I realized why we're disruptive very quickly.
Um, but the the thing that Ilearned, I think, throughout the
experience was um realizing whatit means to work in the world.
And I already knew that from atthe time working at HP and um
having partners in both Asia andthe um in the UK, and what the
(08:22):
time differences meant and whatit meant to be um to them to
work with American time.
Um that was disruptive for them.
And I think I saw it, and I andbecause I was the only American
and most of the class was inEurope, I was the one who was on
that receiving end.
SPEAKER_01 (08:42):
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, that's an interestingperspective to gain.
I guess what did that teach you?
What did that show you?
I'm curious.
SPEAKER_02 (08:50):
Um what it meant to not be in the main time zone of
communication.
Because we like to believe that,oh, we have this distributed
virtual world.
And yes, people do.
The reality is there are timezones and people are working
within a workday, right?
Across the globe.
And we're not always in a timeframe for someone else's
(09:13):
workday.
And what does that mean with aconversation?
Because sometimes my like I'd bein teams, they'd sometimes make
a decision.
I'd be fine with that, right?
But I was like five hoursbehind.
So I'm showing up when some whena lot of decisions were made or
a lot of conversations happened.
And I got to have thatexperience that as Americans,
sometimes we do to othercolleagues across the globe.
(09:36):
And I know that that um I kindof knew some of this going into
it, but after experiencing itmore, um realizing that you do
need to wait sometimes for yourcolleagues in another time zone
to make that decision.
Right.
There are some decisions youcannot, you need them to bring
them along.
SPEAKER_01 (09:56):
I and I know that it's not like within us to
always want to put ourselveswithin the minority, but I
honestly think for personalgrowth and professional growth
purposes, the more you can putyourself in a room where you're
the minority of that group, thebetter, because it's those
insights and empathy that you'regoing to gain that helps you
understand where other peopleare coming from for those
(10:16):
nuanced micro situations thatyou just don't even consider
because you get to take whateverfor granted.
So, yeah, I think that that'sreally, really interesting that
you you've had that experienceand that perspective.
Let's talk a little bit aboutyour consulting work and what
you do.
So, right now, like most well,most consultants kind of pick a
lane.
They either choose customerexperience or employee
(10:37):
experience.
And you've always held both.
What was there like a specificclient or moment that made you
see that these two worlds werereally the same problem?
SPEAKER_02 (10:46):
Yeah.
So I'm gonna say it startedearly in my career.
It was my first job.
My first real job, let's put itthat way, right?
Um, so I was working at achemical engineering software
company, and I know that soundslike very dry.
And at times when I'd work inmarketing, yes, it was.
Right.
I was caught actually napping,um, reading in Salescape.
(11:07):
That's how dry it was.
So um, so the when I firstworked there, I was working
within, they had a um a customersupport call center.
And all the people that workedthere were like chemical
engineers.
Most of them had PhDs.
And um they were helpingdifferent the customers that
(11:28):
they had were like thesechemical plants.
And so they were helping themsolve these problems that you
know that that that lives are atstake, right?
There's bottom lines, right?
So they're doing some really bigwork.
Um, well, there was one day,like there were some some
challenges in the in the group.
It wasn't necessarily the groupat first wasn't necessarily
known for its um its greatcustomer experience, right?
(11:51):
Like that we have there were alot of efforts to improve the
support metrics and all sorts ofthings like that.
And everyone, again, I work itwas the one of the um most
brilliant teams I've ever workedwith, right?
Um, and everyone was everyonewas great, management was great.
It was just how do we bring thistogether?
And there was one fine day thatum the tensions rose, and there
(12:14):
was a shift where two of thepeople disappeared because they
were working on a problem andthey left their post and they
didn't answer the phone, andthey left one poor support
person to answer the phone forfour hours.
This guy got 19 calls.
Oh goodness.
Needless to say, after the shiftended, everything blew up.
(12:37):
Everything blew up.
So the next day, um, I wasworking with the managers
because we were like trying tofigure out what do we do, right?
Because this is bad, right?
Where this is we've hit that.
So so we started um talking withall the different team members,
and we called it the etiquette.
It was kind of like our way tobring everyone together and what
are the rules that we're gonnafollow in the group?
(12:59):
Like you can't just leave and gosolve a problem.
You have to check with thepeople in your shift.
And this sounds so intuitivelyobvious, but it this way we all
held each other accountable.
And once we had this agreementamongst everyone in the team,
right?
Like you can't before you leave,check with everyone that
everyone's good that you go,right?
(13:20):
That how long you're gonna begone, you can't be on longer for
an hour.
We set up all these rules andagreements, and um, the team
followed them.
And within, I'd say within noteven months, um we were able to
apply for an award, and theywon.
The team won.
And so that's like such atestament to leadership coming
(13:42):
together and the team comingtogether.
So I kind of saw like theirtheir support metrics, and then
everyone trusted them more, thecustomers trusted them more.
So that's where you can start tosee how everything comes
together to create that greatcustomer experience.
SPEAKER_01 (13:55):
I love it.
That's a great story andexample.
Let's shift over to the digitalexperience for a minute.
Yes.
It gets used often a lot, thephrase, um, more often than not,
probably, especially in today'sage.
How do you define it?
And how do you know when acompany is actually has one
versus just the kind of thinkingthat they do?
SPEAKER_02 (14:15):
Yeah, yeah, I would agree.
Um, that's that is um, you know,I think this gets to how
companies view their businesses.
And do they see them as um aback and forth with the
customer, or is it just simply atransaction?
(14:36):
And um I think I don't I don'tthink companies benefit from
everything being sotransactional.
Um, I think we were talkingearlier, right?
Even in the research, right?
Um, from what I've been reading,it's been going on for over 40
years in the research itselfabout the benefits of
(14:57):
relationship marketing andbuilding those connections,
right?
Um, because again, we're we'redoing business with people,
right?
And people are buying a widget,um, but it they're having a
relationship with the with thebusiness or the people in the
business.
Um, and I think whatever happensoffline does go to happen
online, right?
(15:17):
That gets a direct translation.
And I think what makes a greatdigital experience is that
you're able to accomplish a goaland you realize, like, hey, that
helped me in my life.
It's not like I was able topurchase and but I was able to
get something done, and thathelped me and that made my day
better.
Like, I think um, we'll just useas an example, let's say, um,
(15:43):
what comes to mind right away islike Uber, right?
And Uber's got a lot ofproblems.
I'll just say that, right?
There's a lot of challenges withthe business model, there's a
lot of challenges with howthey're paying employees now.
Um, but one thing that's greatand why people keep using it is
that you have that engagementand that interaction with the
driver.
And if it's a great experience,well, then you'll go back and
use it again, right?
Because they also get you toyour destination.
(16:04):
So it's kind of like it's notjust that transaction, there's
more.
So um, do are companiesnecessarily doing that today?
I don't think so.
Um, I think that we see ourcustomer experience stats are
dropping year over year.
Forrester tells us that.
Um, but to bring it back up, Ithink it's companies need to
(16:25):
remember they're doing businesswith people.
B2B or B2C, it doesn't matter.
People are involved, right?
And so how do you connect withpeople so that they um they are
able to engage with yourbusiness and not just complete
what they need to complete?
SPEAKER_01 (16:39):
Yeah, it's so true.
Because if you think about ittoo, like everybody's different
skills, like level of skill setand understanding of digital
experiences varies, but then alot of thought doesn't really go
into that.
And then people are often comingto you if they're in a customer
service situation where they'refrustrated, which obviously,
like when you're mad, your IQdrops.
And then on top of that, likejust even the standard, like
(17:02):
outside of customer service, thestandard digital experience.
I mean, I don't know, I feellike we were paying a lot more
attention to it 10 years ago.
It was the of the utmostimportance that everything was
optimized for mobile and forease of use.
And now we have things likevoice recognition and all of
that, but somehow it seems likethe experience has taken a back
seat, and people think thatchatbots and AI are like the
(17:23):
answer for all of it.
So I'm kind of curious, this iskind of a bonus question.
Um, well, no, it's not.
It's me skipping ahead and howAI is reshaping what digital
experiences even mean.
How are you thinking about thatfor your own work and for the
clients who are looking to youfor answers?
SPEAKER_02 (17:39):
Yeah, I, you know, what you were raising, and I'll
get back to the AI, right?
Because we'll get to it.
We were kind of talking about itum a little earlier as well, um,
about stats and looking at themetrics and the and the
analytics and the results.
And um, use as an example.
Um, I worked with one callcenter where they told me they
(18:01):
thought their customers justdidn't understand the field,
that um they these customers um,you know, they weren't
necessarily super qualified,right?
And I got this whole story, andI'm like, you know, with a
colleague, I'm like, what'sthis?
Like, this doesn't make anysense.
I'm like, for this particularfield, you have to be licensed.
You can't even use the softwareunless you have a license.
(18:21):
So what is going on, right?
And then when we looked at themetrics and the stats, come to
find out people were calling forvery complex, in-depth questions
that took hours to solve, orthey couldn't understand their
billing, which honestly that wasthe feedback we got all along.
So if if you're not reallylooking at the stats, or you're
looking at the stats, but you'renot really looking at the stats,
(18:43):
right?
And this is where I think uh mysuspicion is that in a lot of
cases, it when it comes to,let's say, phone systems, right?
People are calling.
That's why they always presszero.
They want to talk to an agent.
They want to talk to an agentbecause it's a complex problem.
They would have solved it onlineif it wasn't.
And yes, maybe maybe the FAQsare insufficient, maybe your
(19:04):
knowledge base is insufficient,right?
Um, what exactly are peoplelooking to resolve?
And this kind of gets to AI,like these are tools, right?
And I also like even inconversations I'll have with
clients or other people about,let's say, social media, right?
Yes, social media, they have allsorts of gaming and all sorts of
(19:26):
other things to get you intowhere they want to get you,
right?
And you just end up creatingthis ecosystem for yourself,
right?
But at the same time, it's atool.
Yeah, it is a tool, it it is andand these tools reflect reality.
And right, so even with AI, it'sa tool.
Um, I get disturbed hearing howAI becomes people's friends.
(19:49):
That's not what it is, right?
Nope.
Like AI is great to help withprogramming.
AI can be great to um work withlarge pieces of data and
rearrange it or analyze it orgive you some output.
I've used it to like, here's abunch of data, give me a
summary.
And it does a pretty good job,right?
(20:11):
But is it meant to necessarilyhelp solve problems?
I'll give um a kind of a casualexample of there was an issue
with my car, and I went and Iused the chatbot on two separate
occasions and two separateGoogle accounts, even to see
what would happen.
Yeah, yeah.
(20:31):
So I mean, I I'm kind of on thefence.
Um, I think it's got some gooduses, but it's a tool.
So, what do you want to use itfor?
What do you want to achieve?
What data are you using?
What's your data set, right?
Are you using the the web wherepeople say, oh, there's
conflicting answers?
Have you been on the web in thepast 10 years?
It's a it's a company of noisesand voices, and you've got to
(20:55):
suss out what's a um a good,like what is um, let's say valid
data, or what is something thathas like let's say a like some
sort of reputation.
Um, you know, they've they'vekind of pushed down academic
data um or like some of themlike to push up certain blogs,
which sometimes I'm like, whyare we referencing blogs?
(21:18):
We should be referencing likewhat is uh um you know valid
insights, right?
And it's it's coming from anacademic institution, a
publication, like something not,you know, my even then I my
opinion is, you know, yeah.
That's okay.
I need data to prove it.
SPEAKER_01 (21:39):
Yeah, no, exactly, exactly.
Yeah, it's it's hard tosometimes just understand.
I think it's like thisinformation overload aspect.
And I think we're using AI tokind of shortcut some things.
And I think, like you said, it'ssuch good advice to think of it
as like it's a tool, but it'snot the replacement, it's not
the replacement for.
(22:00):
Decision making is not thereplacement for common sense.
You know, it's a tool.
So use it, use it as such.
Let's shift gears a little bitinto how you work to also help
leaders define and communicatetheir vision more clearly.
In your experience, what gets inthe way of that the most?
And then is it like ego?
(22:20):
Is it fear?
Is it language?
Is it something else entirely?
Like what's holding them back?
SPEAKER_02 (22:26):
You know, I think it gets to acceptance of what's
happening around.
And this gets to looking at thestats and looking at the metrics
and looking at what um at thedata and information before you.
And I think sometimes um inorganizations will have ideas
(22:46):
about what should be, but thenyou have what is.
And I think to get to yourvision, you do have to have a
sense of what is, who are yourcustomers really.
Like you might have a good likeidea of what you'd like them to
be, but that doesn't mean that'swho they are.
So I, you know, I think it kindof um that's what I kind of take
(23:09):
all the time.
Like I I will accept whatthey're saying about where they
want to be, but this is this iswhere we're starting.
So let's see how we get there.
SPEAKER_01 (23:18):
It is really interesting too, because I think
we fall short of that asmarketers too.
We're always looking at theaudience we want versus the
audience we have.
And instead of trying to expandupon the existing audience that
we actually have, it's alwaysthe aspirational audience that
we're chasing after.
It's always that avatar.
But it's like, why aren't youmaximizing the existing people
(23:38):
that are here in that?
Because those are your realaudience members.
It might not be as sexy as youwant, it might not be as
idealized as you want, butthat's the reality.
And I think I hate to say it,but the brands who've done it
best, i.e.
like Walmart, like they get it.
They get their customer and theyprovide the prices and they
don't do sales and they don't docoupons, but they still get seen
(23:59):
as cheap.
And it's like one of thosethings where I could go and
spend the same amount ongroceries as another grocery
store, but it's that wholementality.
They understand their customersto that degree.
And so yeah, it actually servesyou really well to know your
customer well and to just kindof own it rather than try to
like be like, Walmart, let'sjust try to do like a bougie end
(24:19):
of the store, you know, we'regonna try to go a target, like
it's never gonna happen, youknow, because it's a different
audience altogether.
And I think the brands that haveembraced their audiences are the
ones that kind of come out ontop.
So I think what you're ontothere makes a whole lot of sense
when you're coming from a spaceof trying to create and cast
your vision clearly.
Um, I think you need to face thereality of what it is that
(24:44):
you're looking at and whatyou're doing.
SPEAKER_02 (24:46):
You know, and and to add to what you were saying,
like your customers, like whenyou look at who your customers
are, like they're craving forthat connection.
I I think I have had moreconversations with like
customers, patients, and medicalsystems, all sorts of people.
And they all have the samething.
They want to meet each other,they want to engage with the
(25:10):
organization.
They all do.
And I like like you said, likeWalmart understands also how to
connect to their customers,right?
That is what most of the bigbigger brands they understand
who these people are and how doyou connect with them and how do
you engage with them?
And yes, you have youraspirational, but your
(25:30):
customers, like what is it?
What do they say always say?
Like 80% of your like the nextround of business usually comes
from your existing customers.
It's not from the new.
Like you do have churn, yes, butmost of it is from the same,
it's from your base.
SPEAKER_00 (25:44):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_01 (25:45):
Well, and then Marketing 101 says that, you
know, what is it to cost 10times as much to get a new
customer as it does to maintainan existing, and yet we'll just
ignore the existing and keeplooking at the grease the grass
on the other side to see if it'sgreener, you know, always
keeping our options open.
SPEAKER_02 (26:01):
And it can serve to your um to a company's
detriment, because then thesepeople feel like the the base
feels neglected.
And so then your churn will goup, right?
Because you're not get you'renot helping them solve the
problem that they have.
You know, there there's a umthere there's a theory, what is
it?
Um, peak end rule, right?
And I always find it interestingbecause it applies to customer
(26:23):
service, because I find customerservice fascinating, right?
Because people don't call youbecause they're happy, they call
you because they have a problem,right?
Yeah.
And and so They're not callingjust a chat.
What do you mean?
unknown (26:34):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (26:36):
And I always find it fascinating.
Like it's just stunning to me.
To me, it's like the biggestparadox, right?
Customers are calling becausethey're they're upset and
they're aggravated.
And if you solve that problemand you make them feel special
in that moment, because theyonly remember the end and the
most emotional part of theconversation, right?
So if you make that emotionalinstead of like, oh, I hate you,
(26:56):
but oh, I love you because yousolved my problem and you make
these two things like the end,uh, and then you stay and you
you're singing that company'spraises.
To me, that's the biggestparadox because if the company
did a problem, like they did asomething disastrous and you
stay with them.
To me, that's fascinating,right?
Because there's it's not a lot,it doesn't make any sense.
SPEAKER_01 (27:18):
Yeah, right.
And it's not like there's not amillion choices.
I think there's something toothat's inextricably tied to you
know, customer experience andinternal experience, right?
Because if the internalexperience, if your employees
are not happy, like that's thecore of your business.
And if they're not happy and notin a good place, that bleeds out
(27:39):
into the customer experiencebecause it comes through in
like, I mean, every littledetail, not just the customer
experience, but the digitalexperience as well, because
they're not committed to makingit the best possible because
they don't give a shit.
Because they're not happybecause they've quite quit 10
months ago, you know, thingslike that.
We just don't think about.
Um, so obviously a lot of ourlisteners on the on on the
(28:02):
listening right now, you know,so they're there's a lot of
resource limitations right now.
We've talked about like supplychain issues and shortages and
things like that.
They're we're kind of all undera tremendous amount of pressure
on teams.
What is it costing organizationsin concrete terms when the
internal experience is brokenand no one's naming it?
(28:22):
Because that just sort of feelslike one of the bigger, heavier
things, kind of like theelephant in the room that's
sitting in every meeting roomoutside of all the other things
I just said that are happeningin the world and affecting
business.
SPEAKER_02 (28:35):
So if um we'll go back to the example earlier in
my career and I'll bring thatforward to different things I've
seen, but let's we can startthere.
Um, when I first worked with theteam before we had that meltdown
day, um they were struggling toget customers to pay for
support.
They weren't offering a greatexperience, people didn't really
(28:58):
trust them, right?
The customers didn't.
Um, so it just it it um itdidn't help make it worthwhile
for someone to buy the software.
But once they started winningawards, suddenly people, you
know, it is a spark to buy,right?
To make that purchase because itis, you know, that if you have a
problem, someone will help youand you can trust in that.
(29:20):
Um I would say I see this inalmost every organization that
if you don't um make it a greatplace to work, we can use an
example like Zappos, right?
So Zappos was a wonderful likeplace to work.
I am not so sure now because ofwhere it's falling, right?
(29:41):
But um, when it was first out,that was like the case study,
right?
Great place to work.
They treated customers great,they made money hand over fist
because everyone was happy andwanted, like you said, they
wanted to put forward like thebest experience possible to
engage with customers becausethey saw, you know, I think
(30:02):
companies forget that we're thatcompanies are made of people,
right?
Customers are people, youremployees are people, and um
without customers, the lightsdon't stay on.
We don't like to say that,right?
Which I find fascinating, right?
(30:22):
And and I think evenshareholders know that if your
customers aren't happy, thelights don't stay on.
And if your employees aren'thappy, they're not doing things
to keep customers coming back,and it's just an ecosystem.
And I think that's one of thethings that um I did get a sense
(30:44):
more of a sense of being in likea business school in Europe
versus in the US.
In the US, it's very moneyfocused, right?
In Europe, we were all taughtabout ecosystems, like it was
almost exhausting by the end,right?
Everything's an ecosystem,right?
And when you look at it thatway, you make different
decisions and you realize theconnection between the ecosystem
(31:08):
and the bottom line.
And I would say I think anothergood one um example would be
like the Apple um app store.
And we could also say the GoogleApp Store, right?
Because you have a developercommunity, you have the
customers, you have the uh theemployees, right?
And you have to keep that inharmony so everyone's
(31:28):
contributing.
Customer data comes in, right?
The developers use it, Appleuses it.
Same with Google, the same thingis happening with Google too,
right?
Everyone's using the data, andthen you have success because
everyone's contributing, right?
Um, if you don't have venues forthat and a way to respect
everyone and want thatcontribution, you you you
(31:52):
exclude people, and exclusionmeans no.
I hate to say it, exclusionmeans no money.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (31:58):
I mean, I think it should be boiled down to that
because yeah, we should also sayon the flip side, inclusion
equals money, people.
The numbers tell us.
Yes.
Oh, goodness.
SPEAKER_02 (32:10):
We've been having this conversation for 40 years.
SPEAKER_01 (32:12):
Anyway, I know, right?
And we keep on have just keep onbeating that drama, Mary.
All right.
So this this episode is calledthe Art of Acceptance, and that
phrase means something specificto you and the work that you do.
What does acceptance actuallylook like as a business strategy
or a leadership practice, whichis a great segue from our
inclusion?
SPEAKER_02 (32:31):
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
So um how I kind of got here, Ioriginally wanted to write a
book about listening.
To me, listening is what it'sthe core to my work.
If I didn't have um, if I didn'thave good listening skills, I I
wouldn't have make it, Iwouldn't have clients, right?
That's just the way it is,right?
Um, so I started writing thisbook and um I'm like, oh my God,
(32:52):
I'm just pontificating and it'sboring.
And I was reading and going, ohmy God, who'd want to read this?
So I'm like, there has to besomething more to this.
So I I sat on it for a long timeactually, like, what's going on?
When I'm listening, what'sreally happening?
And what keeps coming to mindwas this was a while back when I
(33:13):
first moved to Dallas.
I went to the farmer's marketand I met this woman who was
selling like all these pickledgood items, right?
And I didn't know her from Adam,right?
So she's a brand new person,right?
And I and she's she uh has allthese little tasting things,
right?
And I I try some stuff, I'mlike, wow, that's really good.
And she starts sharing her lifestory, and she got really in
(33:34):
depth.
And part of me was like, why isshe sharing the story with me?
Right, what's what's going on?
And I started realizing fromthere I like heard other
people's lives, life stories.
And I started realizing it'sbecause I'm accepting them.
I'm not looking at them likeyou're crazy or I don't think
it's true.
Like it's just you're it I'maccepting what's being told to
(33:56):
me, right?
And and this kind of gets to myfavorite proverb, right?
Um, where you know, this youhave this farmer and his horse
runs away, and the village goes,you know, oh, that's terrible,
and he goes, you know, let'ssee, right?
And then the the he that horsebrings a bunch of horses back,
and everyone goes, Oh, that's sogreat.
And he goes, Oh, let's see,right?
And then he goes to the the histhe farmer's um kid, tries to
(34:18):
train a horse, he breaks hisleg, oh that's terrible, right?
Then he doesn't get put in themilitary because of the broken
leg, right?
And it's kind of like notreading into stuff, and that's
what I started realizing, likeyou can't, and and I I kind of
find as a leadership strategy,it makes leading so much
lighter, yeah, and so much morefun.
(34:39):
Because you're not sitting theretrying to analyze why is this
team member not doing you, justhave the conversation, yeah,
right?
And just go, I don't understand.
Like, and yes, I walk aroundperpetually confused all day.
I swear, everyone I go intomeetings and I just go, I don't
understand, or I'm confused.
And I swear everyone's wonders,how does she exist?
(35:00):
That's all I say.
I don't understand, but you knowwhat?
It's easier and it's not mybusiness to try to figure out
what everybody's, you know, whatwhat they're thinking.
Like let's just take people asthey are, as they arrive, um,
and not try to read into it andjust accept what they're doing
(35:23):
and showing us, and accept whatthey're showing us, right?
That's the next key to this,right?
That's the next part of it forsure.
Um, you know, um, because I dhave had um management and
leadership situations where Ihad to accept what was being
told to me.
And yeah, it's not so great.
SPEAKER_01 (35:37):
Sucky.
Yeah.
No, I do.
I've heard that proverb, themaybe story of where, like,
yeah, it's like maybe, maybe.
And oftentimes we do.
We tend to put narratives tothings where there is no
narrative, and that actuallyreduces opportunity.
It makes us maybe pass on thosethings.
It also kind of reminds me ofthe first time I got to hear
Brene Brown speak before shekind of made it big.
(35:59):
Um, I was at a how designconference, I want to say in
like 20, well, I guess it wouldhave been like 2014, 2015.
And she was talking about like acoworker at the university where
she was doing research in Texas,and she was talking about doing
her research in shame and shewas pitching it.
And the woman who was with herwas on her phone and just
messaging and not payingattention.
(36:21):
And Brene was so pissed off ather and was like, she just got
something out for me.
It's just because I'm anotherwoman.
She doesn't want me to besuccessful.
And she just went home and waslike bitching to her husband
about it and all this stuff.
And she sat down that night andshe wrote her this scathing
email about how rude she was andhow inconsiderate she was.
And the woman wrote back, like,I am incredibly sorry.
(36:43):
I really should have canceledthat meeting.
The reason I was on my phone isbecause our family dog had been
hit by a car and we had to havethe make the decision to put him
down in that moment.
I should have just put my phonedown and told you what was
happening and walked out of theroom and saved the meeting for
later.
So Britain obviously felt like abig old jerk.
But it's funny how one person'ssituation, losing a family pet
(37:04):
to this other person just lookedlike outright refusal to listen
and to pay attention and to bepresent.
But how easy would it have beento just be like, listen, I'm
having this moment and I reallyneed a time.
I need to reschedule this.
Or even for Brene to look at herand say, you know what,
something feels off here.
I don't feel like you're reallyinto what I'm talking about
right now.
Is this not the right timeversus making the assumption,
(37:26):
assuming and then, you know,sort of accepting the situation
for what it is versus putting anarrative to it?
SPEAKER_02 (37:33):
Yes, exactly.
Like you, like you j exactlythat.
Yes.
It it's um, you know, I thinkthis the I'm glad you brought up
that example.
Um, because this kind of gets tovirtual meetings.
And I'll just do this to this.
This is an example I use in thebook, is like virtual meetings,
right?
And and there are moments thatthere'll be discussions and it's
(37:56):
hard to get a word in edgewise.
I think we've all been wherewe're like, oh my goodness, like
will someone take a break,right?
And and you know, that can getmisinterpreted on so many
levels.
And you know, I I think one ofthe the gaps in organizations,
there really should befacilitators at in these calls
to pay attention to what'shappening in the room.
(38:18):
Um, because you know, peoplesometimes I think they're all
like they don't intend to docertain things unless you start
seeing a pattern, right?
Now that's completely different.
If you're observing a pattern,that's different.
But let's say um, you know,someone just keep keeps talking,
there's anxiety issues.
Um we don't realize um the US isincredibly and it's an
(38:42):
incredibly anxious country,yeah.
And anxiety can come out in somany different ways.
That you know, people I I'venoticed oh over talking, like
like again, oh my god, take abreak.
But just it, you know, it howhow do you, if you can, try to
(39:02):
have a facilitator or just tryto be mindful.
SPEAKER_01 (39:07):
Yeah, yeah, I agree.
And then I think acceptance too.
I mean, you were talkingearlier, your example about time
zone difference, you know, justbeing more accepting and
understanding there, having someempathy, thinking about what
it's like on the other side,showing people some grace.
I think that's another thingtoo.
Oftentimes, like we've got ourstandards up so high.
And I mean, everybody wants tobe considered.
(39:28):
I don't think people most peoplecome in on to calls or meetings
and they're like, oh, I'm justgonna make everybody pissed.
No, like it's just there'salways something else happening.
It kind of also reminds me of umkind of like that practice of
whenever um somebody cuts youoff in traffic or does something
rude.
I just I can usually, I used toget so mad, but now I'm like, I
can let that go.
Like honestly, I can let thatgo.
(39:49):
Like there, there is somethingelse on their mind, or they're
on their phone, or they're justdoing their like they're in
their whole own little world.
And I'm not saying it's anexcuse.
It's just saying this is notsomething I can control right
now.
All I can control is how Irespond.
SPEAKER_02 (40:03):
Yes, yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
The world is bigger.
And that's I think acceptingaccepting that that it's um, you
know, I think a challenging linewe've been we've been fed is
like the idea that the worldworks for you.
And I found it light, itlightened my load to let that
(40:23):
go.
Yeah.
Like, no, it doesn't.
Yeah.
unknown (40:27):
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (40:29):
It's just there.
And you're doing what you canand trying to get through it,
and so is everyone else inthere.
SPEAKER_01 (40:38):
Like you said, like the yeah.
We're all just out here tryingto survive.
Just a little more acceptanceand understanding.
Give give yourself and everyoneelse a little bit of grace.
unknown (40:51):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (40:51):
All right.
So when you're walking into likea new client engagement, what is
it that you're trying tounderstand before any strategy
or deliverable comes into thatspace?
Is there like a question thatyou always like to ask that
tends to crack things open?
Like what helps you sort of getto the nitty-gritty of maybe
what um they might be strugglingwith?
SPEAKER_02 (41:09):
Yeah, before I go in, what I've found, um what
I've found lately is to makesure I check out their LinkedIn
profile a little bit.
Right.
Um, some or or I hear throughthe grave find who someone is,
right?
Um and then I'll listen and letthem kind of drive the
(41:29):
conversation.
Um because you know, they mightum what the what often what I
get called in to do isn't whatneeds to be done.
Right.
There is a um there is a bit ofa misdiagnosis of the problem,
(41:50):
right?
Or they think they know what theproblem is, and then when you
start listening, it might be adifferent problem.
Or that is one of the manyproblems that need to be
resolved, right?
Like there's other thingshappening.
So how do you how do you getthat right?
And so I listen a lot.
I I I try to just uh basicallyunderstand their situation more.
SPEAKER_01 (42:11):
Love it.
All right, we're coming up toour last question, then we'll go
into the power round.
If you could leave every womanin our audience um one shift,
then how they could seethemselves or their work, what
would it be?
SPEAKER_02 (42:27):
Accept yourself and make sure that you're happy with
what you're doing and what youroutput is.
I think there's so much pressurenow.
And it's not for perfection,right?
Like one thing I notice,especially with the with the
rise of AI, is um a lack ofquality.
And so if you're producingsomething that you think is high
(42:50):
quality, right, and I thinkeverybody should do that.
Like it doesn't have to beperfect, but you're pretty happy
with the quality of it.
Like, um, in general, I knowwhen I with writing, I want to
be sure it sounds pretty good,right?
Um, grammatically correct.
Um when I do out like when Icreate a presentation um after a
study, um, you know, to documentthe study and present findings.
(43:13):
Um, how does this sound?
Does it sound pretty good?
Is it presenting some goodinsights?
Can they do something with this,right?
And make sure I'm happy with it.
Um and I think at times we're inthis whole like you know, fail
fast and all that nonsense.
Like let's try.
(43:34):
Let's try.
Let's do it.
Let's put our like let's try toput our best foot forward.
Sure.
Not our perfect foot, our bestfoot.
SPEAKER_01 (43:41):
Yeah.
No, that makes sense.
Awesome.
All right, Mary, I'm gonna gointo the power round now.
Okay, these are kind of quickrapid fire question answers.
Um, one thing you have had topractice um accepting that
surprised you.
SPEAKER_02 (43:58):
That in I think it's been more in the past few years,
but how in the world we alldon't share the same values.
And we like to assume, and Ididn't realize how much I did
this.
Um, we like to assume that weall share the same values.
No, we don't.
No, we don't.
And it's not that um and onceit's hard to accept, especially
(44:24):
certain people close to you thatyou might want to think, oh
yeah, we're all the same.
No, no, no, no.
Right.
And once you accept that, theworld becomes a very different
place.
And it's not a scary place, it'sjust a different place.
Um and um a lot of the worldbecomes a lot clearer.
SPEAKER_01 (44:42):
Yeah.
For seeing it for what it reallyis.
Trust the data.
Yeah, trust what they're showingyou.
Believe it, they're gonna showyou, believe it.
All right, finish this sentence.
The most underrated leadershipskill is listening.
Listening and acceptance.
And on that note, what's onesign that somebody is truly
listening to you?
SPEAKER_02 (45:03):
That's a great question.
Um you know thinking about thisand looking at like being out
out in the world and you know,all this stuff, I would say it
this is gonna sound weirdbecause we we're always told do
the act of listening and repeatback, blah blah blah.
(45:24):
Right.
And and I've been in so manysituations where the person
repeated back.
No, they didn't even mean like Irepeated it back, and no, no, I
didn't.
You know what?
It's the emotional engagement,and I'm gonna say that it's the
emotional contagion and feelingthat sense of emotion with other
people.
You know, there's actually um toshare it, there's there's this,
there's this theory, um, RandallCollins, and he did this
(45:47):
interaction um ritual chaintheory.
And an example that he that hehighlights a lot is um smokers.
I know it's terrible, right?
But but anyone who who has beena smoker, right, they've they
know when you go out to smoke,you all have that in common and
you do have some type ofemotional connection.
It's more of a solidarity, it'snot like you're besties, right?
But you have that solidarity.
(46:08):
Um, and I would say when you'rein a meeting and there always is
an emotional contagion.
I think we don't like to talkabout that.
We like to think, oh, we're inbusiness, we're so rational.
Bottom line result.
And again, like we share all thesame values of what that looks
like, right?
To some it's a it's a profit, tosome it's a revenue, to some
it's market share, right?
That's not the same.
(46:30):
But if we can leave feeling likewe can do this and we're
excited, and we're happy to behere, and we're happy to work
with each other.
I feel like, you know, that's asodd as this sounds.
Like I think people leave thosemeetings and they they listen to
something, they heard somethingin those moments.
SPEAKER_01 (46:48):
I love that.
All right.
My last question then that Ihave is one word that describes
what acceptance has given you.
Peace.
Yeah, that's a good one.
I agree, I agree.
Love acceptance.
Um, I have like a whole talkthat I did on mindfulness that's
um, you know, it's yield toovercome, it's impermanence,
(47:10):
it's like um I'm trying toremember, I there was like four
or five different parts of it,but a lot of it was acceptance
and um acceptance of outcome orallowing just outcome to be what
it needs to be and all that kindof stuff.
There's an absolute freedom toall of that.
So what a great word,acceptance.
We appreciate it, Mary, and allof your amazing insights and
(47:31):
your studies and your research.
I'm so excited.
Please keep in touch.
Um, I want to hear howeverything goes with your
research and you're getting yourPhD.
We'll be calling you Dr.
Brody when you come back tomaybe share some more about that
and what your insights are fornow.
What are some of the best waysthat our listeners can get a
hold of you if they want to talkmore?
SPEAKER_02 (47:49):
I'm sure.
Um, you can reach me throughemail, M F Brody, M is in Mary,
F is and Frank, B-R-O-D-I-E atGearMark.com.
I am also on LinkedIn.
Um, Mary Brody, you can find me.
Um, I'd say those are the thebest ways.
Fantastic.
SPEAKER_01 (48:07):
Well, thank you so much, Mary.
This has been fantastic.
Such a grounding and generousconversation.
Thank you for reminding us thatsome of the most strategic work
we can do is leaders is also themost human.
It's great.
Wonderful.
All right, everyone.
Yeah, we appreciate you all.
If today's uh conversationresonated with you, this is
exactly the kind of dialogue wecreate every week inside
Together Digital, a community ofwomen who show up for each other
(48:29):
in every stage of the journey.
So whether you're just figuringthings out, you're feeling a
little stuck, ready to scale, oralready soaring, um, you're
going to find your people here.
So again, you can find us attogetherindigital.com.
We'd love to have you all.
And until next time, everyone,keep asking, keep giving, and
keep growing.
We'll see you soon.
SPEAKER_02 (48:55):
Produced by Heartcast Media.
Almost every day.
Hello, entrepreneurship.
Um, there's always something,and there's always um, I'd say
I'd say there there are momentswhere I do wonder like, what am
I doing and why?
I get disturbed hearing how AIbecomes people's friends.
That's not what it is.
(00:20):
Companies forget that we're thatcompanies are made of people,
right?
Customers are people, youremployees are people.
And um without customers, thelights don't stay on.
I walk around perpetuallyconfused all day.
I swear.
Everyone, I go into meetings andI just go, I don't understand,
or I'm confused.
And I swear everyone's wonders,how does she exist?
(00:43):
I think a challenging line we'vebeen we've been fed is like the
idea that the world works foryou.
And I found it light, itlightened my load to let that
go.
SPEAKER_01 (01:04):
Hello everyone, and welcome to our weekly power
lounge.
This is your place to hearauthentic conversations from
those who have power to share.
My name is Amy Vaughn, and I amthe owner and chief empowerment
officer of Together Digital, adiverse and collaborative
community of women who choose toshare their knowledge, power,
and connections.
You can join the movement atTogetherIndigital.com.
(01:26):
Here's what I love about today'sguest.
She has built something that haslasted more than two decades,
and she did it by payingattention to the things that
most people overlook.
Mary Brodie is the founder anddigital experience strategist at
GearMark, a consultancy whereshe has grown for over 20 years
across apps, websites, contentstrategies, lead generation, and
(01:46):
full digital experience design.
But what sets Mary apart most isthat she doesn't just care about
the customer experience.
She works just as hard on what'shappening inside of
organizations.
She partners with leaders tohelp them get clear on their
vision, communicate to theirteams, and build the kind of
collaboration that actuallysticks.
Mary studied at MIT, holds a BAand A and MA from Simons
(02:09):
College, and has earned anexecutive master's in corporate
communications from IEUniversity in Madrid.
And if that wasn't enough, sheis currently pursuing her
doctorate.
Holla hala, yay for researchapproval today.
Big news.
We'll chat about that at CaseWestern Reserve University,
where she uh her researchexplores how B2B buying teams
(02:30):
build relationships withsupplier people, salespeople,
which tells you everything abouthow deeply she thinks about the
human dynamic behind businessdecisions.
She brings serious intellectualrigor to deeply human work,
which is what we love.
And today she's about to bringboth into the conversation about
acceptance, listening, andfinding it more easy in work in
(02:50):
life.
Mary, welcome to the PowerLounge.
SPEAKER_02 (02:54):
Thank you, Amy.
It's awesome to be here.
SPEAKER_01 (02:56):
All right, Mary, you have spent 20 plus years
building one thing that isincreasingly rare.
What was the moment or theseason in which you almost
didn't keep going?
And what did you tell yourselfthat made the difference?
SPEAKER_02 (03:11):
So um, I'll be honest, almost every day.
Hello, entrepreneurship.
Um, there's always something,and there's always um, I'd say,
I'd say there there are momentswhere I do wonder like, what am
I doing and why?
And usually what brings me backis um is my clients and watching
(03:33):
what they're um what they'reachieving and what they're able
and how they're able to engagewith their customers better, or
we we are able to have abreakthrough in some way.
Um I'd say that's really whatkeeps me what keeps me going and
keeps me working on what I'mworking on.
SPEAKER_01 (03:53):
Um and keeps me driven.
But it's every day.
Every day.
No, it's so true.
I think I joke oftentimes andsay like entrepreneurship and
running your own business iskind of like a marriage.
It's like a choice every day.
You wake up and you're like, I Icould just quit.
I could just quit.
But no, like you choose to keepshowing up, you choose to get
(04:14):
keep going.
Or like my friend Crystal, whoowns two businesses, often says,
I just quit every day.
And then I decide to come backand rehire myself.
SPEAKER_02 (04:23):
You know, what what I think we don't realize is that
you could go off and work forsomeone else, but then you look
at how they're controlling, andthis is the way I saw it, and
this is why I started going offon my own, right?
Um, they're controlling youremployment, right?
And they're making thatdecision.
And in today's world, um thereasons why you can be let go
(04:45):
are can be trivial almost.
Oh, absolutely.
Um, so at least you have morecontrol over your life and where
you're going with it.
Um, and I think one of thethings too that I enjoy um being
on on being like in my ownbusiness is um I know that my
(05:06):
clients have other choices andwhy they're choosing me, if that
makes sense.
Um, so every day is almost likewhen some when people who work
in companies will tell me, like,oh, well, what about a
performance review?
I'm like, that's every day.
Yeah.
Because they could choosesomeone else, right?
They don't have to come back.
Even mid-project, they couldsay, We've had enough of you.
Um, but they don't, right?
(05:27):
And they stick around foractually um in some cases with
clients a long, long time.
SPEAKER_01 (05:30):
So that's great.
That's fantastic.
Another thing that you share incommon with a lot of our
community is that continuededucation and constant learning
mindset, which I think isfantastic.
And you've clearly, as I readbefore, you know, have invested
a lot in your education acrossthe stretch of your career,
whether it was MIT, Simmons, andthen the master's in Madrid, not
your PhD.
(05:50):
What is it that you're searchingfor each time you go back to
further educate yourself?
SPEAKER_02 (05:56):
Yeah, so um I first got the master's because I
originally wanted to be anacademic.
And um, I couldn't determinewhat I wanted to focus on for a
PhD at the time.
And my advisor said to me, youneed to get a job.
And after the shock of like, Igotta get a job, right?
(06:17):
I have to feel in the realworld.
Oh my God, right?
So scary.
Um but you know, I didn'trealize at the time, because uh
at the time a lot of people toldme, like, oh, a master's in
English, it's what can you dowith that?
And I have to say, I use itevery day.
Oh yeah.
Like what, you know, we're toldthat the world is based on, you
(06:39):
know, the and yes, it is, it'sbottom line and numbers and all
that, but stories andstorytelling.
And that's where I kind of seeum what a master's of English
can do for you, right?
And I went back for the degreeum at IE University, um, mainly
because what I noticed in my inmy work was when you start
(07:01):
working on like social mediacampaigns, those are
communication campaigns, andespecially in the world of
technology, um a lot of peoplelearned as they went along at
work, which is great, and to beself-trained, but at the same
time, there are certain gaps.
And I realized that's why I wentback to school, so I can get
that more complete training ofhow should this really work.
(07:21):
And also understanding that wewe are, and it kind of leads to
like how where we are today withum with AI, right?
And conversational UI.
Um at the time I startedrealizing like, hey, social
media, it's all conversations,and that's where things are
going.
Like we are gonna have moreconversations, and it is
worthwhile for me to betterunderstand how do communications
(07:44):
work in a in a business.
Again, the more formaleducation.
And what I the the bonus part ofthe education that I got that I
didn't realize I was gonna getwas being the only American in
the class.
SPEAKER_03 (07:56):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (07:57):
Um, I realized why we're disruptive very quickly.
Um, but the the thing that Ilearned, I think, throughout the
experience was um realizing whatit means to work in the world.
And I already knew that from atthe time working at HP and um
having partners in both Asia andthe um in the UK, and what the
(08:22):
time differences meant and whatit meant to be um to them to
work with American time.
Um that was disruptive for them.
And I think I saw it, and I andbecause I was the only American
and most of the class was inEurope, I was the one who was on
that receiving end.
SPEAKER_01 (08:42):
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, that's an interestingperspective to gain.
I guess what did that teach you?
What did that show you?
I'm curious.
SPEAKER_02 (08:50):
Um what it meant to not be in the main time zone of
communication.
Because we like to believe that,oh, we have this distributed
virtual world.
And yes, people do.
The reality is there are timezones and people are working
within a workday, right?
Across the globe.
And we're not always in a timeframe for someone else's
(09:13):
workday.
And what does that mean with aconversation?
Because sometimes my like I'd bein teams, they'd sometimes make
a decision.
I'd be fine with that, right?
But I was like five hoursbehind.
So I'm showing up when some whena lot of decisions were made or
a lot of conversations happened.
And I got to have thatexperience that as Americans,
sometimes we do to othercolleagues across the globe.
(09:36):
And I know that that um I kindof knew some of this going into
it, but after experiencing itmore, um realizing that you do
need to wait sometimes for yourcolleagues in another time zone
to make that decision.
Right.
There are some decisions youcannot, you need them to bring
them along.
SPEAKER_01 (09:56):
I and I know that it's not like within us to
always want to put ourselveswithin the minority, but I
honestly think for personalgrowth and professional growth
purposes, the more you can putyourself in a room where you're
the minority of that group, thebetter, because it's those
insights and empathy that you'regoing to gain that helps you
understand where other peopleare coming from for those
(10:16):
nuanced micro situations thatyou just don't even consider
because you get to take whateverfor granted.
So, yeah, I think that that'sreally, really interesting that
you you've had that experienceand that perspective.
Let's talk a little bit aboutyour consulting work and what
you do.
So, right now, like most well,most consultants kind of pick a
lane.
They either choose customerexperience or employee
(10:37):
experience.
And you've always held both.
What was there like a specificclient or moment that made you
see that these two worlds werereally the same problem?
SPEAKER_02 (10:46):
Yeah.
So I'm gonna say it startedearly in my career.
It was my first job.
My first real job, let's put itthat way, right?
Um, so I was working at achemical engineering software
company, and I know that soundslike very dry.
And at times when I'd work inmarketing, yes, it was.
Right.
I was caught actually napping,um, reading in Salescape.
(11:07):
That's how dry it was.
So um, so the when I firstworked there, I was working
within, they had a um a customersupport call center.
And all the people that workedthere were like chemical
engineers.
Most of them had PhDs.
And um they were helpingdifferent the customers that
(11:28):
they had were like thesechemical plants.
And so they were helping themsolve these problems that you
know that that that lives are atstake, right?
There's bottom lines, right?
So they're doing some really bigwork.
Um, well, there was one day,like there were some some
challenges in the in the group.
It wasn't necessarily the groupat first wasn't necessarily
known for its um its greatcustomer experience, right?
(11:51):
Like that we have there were alot of efforts to improve the
support metrics and all sorts ofthings like that.
And everyone, again, I work itwas the one of the um most
brilliant teams I've ever workedwith, right?
Um, and everyone was everyonewas great, management was great.
It was just how do we bring thistogether?
And there was one fine day thatum the tensions rose, and there
(12:14):
was a shift where two of thepeople disappeared because they
were working on a problem andthey left their post and they
didn't answer the phone, andthey left one poor support
person to answer the phone forfour hours.
This guy got 19 calls.
Oh goodness.
Needless to say, after the shiftended, everything blew up.
(12:37):
Everything blew up.
So the next day, um, I wasworking with the managers
because we were like trying tofigure out what do we do, right?
Because this is bad, right?
Where this is we've hit that.
So so we started um talking withall the different team members,
and we called it the etiquette.
It was kind of like our way tobring everyone together and what
are the rules that we're gonnafollow in the group?
(12:59):
Like you can't just leave and gosolve a problem.
You have to check with thepeople in your shift.
And this sounds so intuitivelyobvious, but it this way we all
held each other accountable.
And once we had this agreementamongst everyone in the team,
right?
Like you can't before you leave,check with everyone that
everyone's good that you go,right?
(13:20):
That how long you're gonna begone, you can't be on longer for
an hour.
We set up all these rules andagreements, and um, the team
followed them.
And within, I'd say within noteven months, um we were able to
apply for an award, and theywon.
The team won.
And so that's like such atestament to leadership coming
(13:42):
together and the team comingtogether.
So I kind of saw like theirtheir support metrics, and then
everyone trusted them more, thecustomers trusted them more.
So that's where you can start tosee how everything comes
together to create that greatcustomer experience.
SPEAKER_01 (13:55):
I love it.
That's a great story andexample.
Let's shift over to the digitalexperience for a minute.
Yes.
It gets used often a lot, thephrase, um, more often than not,
probably, especially in today'sage.
How do you define it?
And how do you know when acompany is actually has one
versus just the kind of thinkingthat they do?
SPEAKER_02 (14:15):
Yeah, yeah, I would agree.
Um, that's that is um, you know,I think this gets to how
companies view their businesses.
And do they see them as um aback and forth with the
customer, or is it just simply atransaction?
(14:36):
And um I think I don't I don'tthink companies benefit from
everything being sotransactional.
Um, I think we were talkingearlier, right?
Even in the research, right?
Um, from what I've been reading,it's been going on for over 40
years in the research itselfabout the benefits of
(14:57):
relationship marketing andbuilding those connections,
right?
Um, because again, we're we'redoing business with people,
right?
And people are buying a widget,um, but it they're having a
relationship with the with thebusiness or the people in the
business.
Um, and I think whatever happensoffline does go to happen
online, right?
(15:17):
That gets a direct translation.
And I think what makes a greatdigital experience is that
you're able to accomplish a goaland you realize, like, hey, that
helped me in my life.
It's not like I was able topurchase and but I was able to
get something done, and thathelped me and that made my day
better.
Like, I think um, we'll just useas an example, let's say, um,
(15:43):
what comes to mind right away islike Uber, right?
And Uber's got a lot ofproblems.
I'll just say that, right?
There's a lot of challenges withthe business model, there's a
lot of challenges with howthey're paying employees now.
Um, but one thing that's greatand why people keep using it is
that you have that engagementand that interaction with the
driver.
And if it's a great experience,well, then you'll go back and
use it again, right?
Because they also get you toyour destination.
(16:04):
So it's kind of like it's notjust that transaction, there's
more.
So um, do are companiesnecessarily doing that today?
I don't think so.
Um, I think that we see ourcustomer experience stats are
dropping year over year.
Forrester tells us that.
Um, but to bring it back up, Ithink it's companies need to
(16:25):
remember they're doing businesswith people.
B2B or B2C, it doesn't matter.
People are involved, right?
And so how do you connect withpeople so that they um they are
able to engage with yourbusiness and not just complete
what they need to complete?
SPEAKER_01 (16:39):
Yeah, it's so true.
Because if you think about ittoo, like everybody's different
skills, like level of skill setand understanding of digital
experiences varies, but then alot of thought doesn't really go
into that.
And then people are often comingto you if they're in a customer
service situation where they'refrustrated, which obviously,
like when you're mad, your IQdrops.
And then on top of that, likejust even the standard, like
(17:02):
outside of customer service, thestandard digital experience.
I mean, I don't know, I feellike we were paying a lot more
attention to it 10 years ago.
It was the of the utmostimportance that everything was
optimized for mobile and forease of use.
And now we have things likevoice recognition and all of
that, but somehow it seems likethe experience has taken a back
seat, and people think thatchatbots and AI are like the
(17:23):
answer for all of it.
So I'm kind of curious, this iskind of a bonus question.
Um, well, no, it's not.
It's me skipping ahead and howAI is reshaping what digital
experiences even mean.
How are you thinking about thatfor your own work and for the
clients who are looking to youfor answers?
SPEAKER_02 (17:39):
Yeah, I, you know, what you were raising, and I'll
get back to the AI, right?
Because we'll get to it.
We were kind of talking about itum a little earlier as well, um,
about stats and looking at themetrics and the and the
analytics and the results.
And um, use as an example.
Um, I worked with one callcenter where they told me they
(18:01):
thought their customers justdidn't understand the field,
that um they these customers um,you know, they weren't
necessarily super qualified,right?
And I got this whole story, andI'm like, you know, with a
colleague, I'm like, what'sthis?
Like, this doesn't make anysense.
I'm like, for this particularfield, you have to be licensed.
You can't even use the softwareunless you have a license.
(18:21):
So what is going on, right?
And then when we looked at themetrics and the stats, come to
find out people were calling forvery complex, in-depth questions
that took hours to solve, orthey couldn't understand their
billing, which honestly that wasthe feedback we got all along.
So if if you're not reallylooking at the stats, or you're
looking at the stats, but you'renot really looking at the stats,
(18:43):
right?
And this is where I think uh mysuspicion is that in a lot of
cases, it when it comes to,let's say, phone systems, right?
People are calling.
That's why they always presszero.
They want to talk to an agent.
They want to talk to an agentbecause it's a complex problem.
They would have solved it onlineif it wasn't.
And yes, maybe maybe the FAQsare insufficient, maybe your
(19:04):
knowledge base is insufficient,right?
Um, what exactly are peoplelooking to resolve?
And this kind of gets to AI,like these are tools, right?
And I also like even inconversations I'll have with
clients or other people about,let's say, social media, right?
Yes, social media, they have allsorts of gaming and all sorts of
(19:26):
other things to get you intowhere they want to get you,
right?
And you just end up creatingthis ecosystem for yourself,
right?
But at the same time, it's atool.
Yeah, it is a tool, it it is andand these tools reflect reality.
And right, so even with AI, it'sa tool.
Um, I get disturbed hearing howAI becomes people's friends.
(19:49):
That's not what it is, right?
Nope.
Like AI is great to help withprogramming.
AI can be great to um work withlarge pieces of data and
rearrange it or analyze it orgive you some output.
I've used it to like, here's abunch of data, give me a
summary.
And it does a pretty good job,right?
(20:11):
But is it meant to necessarilyhelp solve problems?
I'll give um a kind of a casualexample of there was an issue
with my car, and I went and Iused the chatbot on two separate
occasions and two separateGoogle accounts, even to see
what would happen.
Yeah, yeah.
(20:31):
So I mean, I I'm kind of on thefence.
Um, I think it's got some gooduses, but it's a tool.
So, what do you want to use itfor?
What do you want to achieve?
What data are you using?
What's your data set, right?
Are you using the the web wherepeople say, oh, there's
conflicting answers?
Have you been on the web in thepast 10 years?
It's a it's a company of noisesand voices, and you've got to
(20:55):
suss out what's a um a good,like what is um, let's say valid
data, or what is something thathas like let's say a like some
sort of reputation.
Um, you know, they've they'vekind of pushed down academic
data um or like some of themlike to push up certain blogs,
which sometimes I'm like, whyare we referencing blogs?
(21:18):
We should be referencing likewhat is uh um you know valid
insights, right?
And it's it's coming from anacademic institution, a
publication, like something not,you know, my even then I my
opinion is, you know, yeah.
That's okay.
I need data to prove it.
SPEAKER_01 (21:39):
Yeah, no, exactly, exactly.
Yeah, it's it's hard tosometimes just understand.
I think it's like thisinformation overload aspect.
And I think we're using AI tokind of shortcut some things.
And I think, like you said, it'ssuch good advice to think of it
as like it's a tool, but it'snot the replacement, it's not
the replacement for.
(22:00):
Decision making is not thereplacement for common sense.
You know, it's a tool.
So use it, use it as such.
Let's shift gears a little bitinto how you work to also help
leaders define and communicatetheir vision more clearly.
In your experience, what gets inthe way of that the most?
And then is it like ego?
(22:20):
Is it fear?
Is it language?
Is it something else entirely?
Like what's holding them back?
SPEAKER_02 (22:26):
You know, I think it gets to acceptance of what's
happening around.
And this gets to looking at thestats and looking at the metrics
and looking at what um at thedata and information before you.
And I think sometimes um inorganizations will have ideas
(22:46):
about what should be, but thenyou have what is.
And I think to get to yourvision, you do have to have a
sense of what is, who are yourcustomers really.
Like you might have a good likeidea of what you'd like them to
be, but that doesn't mean that'swho they are.
So I, you know, I think it kindof um that's what I kind of take
(23:09):
all the time.
Like I I will accept whatthey're saying about where they
want to be, but this is this iswhere we're starting.
So let's see how we get there.
SPEAKER_01 (23:18):
It is really interesting too, because I think
we fall short of that asmarketers too.
We're always looking at theaudience we want versus the
audience we have.
And instead of trying to expandupon the existing audience that
we actually have, it's alwaysthe aspirational audience that
we're chasing after.
It's always that avatar.
But it's like, why aren't youmaximizing the existing people
(23:38):
that are here in that?
Because those are your realaudience members.
It might not be as sexy as youwant, it might not be as
idealized as you want, butthat's the reality.
And I think I hate to say it,but the brands who've done it
best, i.e.
like Walmart, like they get it.
They get their customer and theyprovide the prices and they
don't do sales and they don't docoupons, but they still get seen
(23:59):
as cheap.
And it's like one of thosethings where I could go and
spend the same amount ongroceries as another grocery
store, but it's that wholementality.
They understand their customersto that degree.
And so yeah, it actually servesyou really well to know your
customer well and to just kindof own it rather than try to
like be like, Walmart, let'sjust try to do like a bougie end
(24:19):
of the store, you know, we'regonna try to go a target, like
it's never gonna happen, youknow, because it's a different
audience altogether.
And I think the brands that haveembraced their audiences are the
ones that kind of come out ontop.
So I think what you're ontothere makes a whole lot of sense
when you're coming from a spaceof trying to create and cast
your vision clearly.
Um, I think you need to face thereality of what it is that
(24:44):
you're looking at and whatyou're doing.
SPEAKER_02 (24:46):
You know, and and to add to what you were saying,
like your customers, like whenyou look at who your customers
are, like they're craving forthat connection.
I I think I have had moreconversations with like
customers, patients, and medicalsystems, all sorts of people.
And they all have the samething.
They want to meet each other,they want to engage with the
(25:10):
organization.
They all do.
And I like like you said, likeWalmart understands also how to
connect to their customers,right?
That is what most of the bigbigger brands they understand
who these people are and how doyou connect with them and how do
you engage with them?
And yes, you have youraspirational, but your
(25:30):
customers, like what is it?
What do they say always say?
Like 80% of your like the nextround of business usually comes
from your existing customers.
It's not from the new.
Like you do have churn, yes, butmost of it is from the same,
it's from your base.
SPEAKER_00 (25:44):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_01 (25:45):
Well, and then Marketing 101 says that, you
know, what is it to cost 10times as much to get a new
customer as it does to maintainan existing, and yet we'll just
ignore the existing and keeplooking at the grease the grass
on the other side to see if it'sgreener, you know, always
keeping our options open.
SPEAKER_02 (26:01):
And it can serve to your um to a company's
detriment, because then thesepeople feel like the the base
feels neglected.
And so then your churn will goup, right?
Because you're not get you'renot helping them solve the
problem that they have.
You know, there there's a umthere there's a theory, what is
it?
Um, peak end rule, right?
And I always find it interestingbecause it applies to customer
(26:23):
service, because I find customerservice fascinating, right?
Because people don't call youbecause they're happy, they call
you because they have a problem,right?
Yeah.
And and so They're not callingjust a chat.
What do you mean?
unknown (26:34):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (26:36):
And I always find it fascinating.
Like it's just stunning to me.
To me, it's like the biggestparadox, right?
Customers are calling becausethey're they're upset and
they're aggravated.
And if you solve that problemand you make them feel special
in that moment, because theyonly remember the end and the
most emotional part of theconversation, right?
So if you make that emotionalinstead of like, oh, I hate you,
(26:56):
but oh, I love you because yousolved my problem and you make
these two things like the end,uh, and then you stay and you
you're singing that company'spraises.
To me, that's the biggestparadox because if the company
did a problem, like they did asomething disastrous and you
stay with them.
To me, that's fascinating,right?
Because there's it's not a lot,it doesn't make any sense.
SPEAKER_01 (27:18):
Yeah, right.
And it's not like there's not amillion choices.
I think there's something toothat's inextricably tied to you
know, customer experience andinternal experience, right?
Because if the internalexperience, if your employees
are not happy, like that's thecore of your business.
And if they're not happy and notin a good place, that bleeds out
(27:39):
into the customer experiencebecause it comes through in
like, I mean, every littledetail, not just the customer
experience, but the digitalexperience as well, because
they're not committed to makingit the best possible because
they don't give a shit.
Because they're not happybecause they've quite quit 10
months ago, you know, thingslike that.
We just don't think about.
Um, so obviously a lot of ourlisteners on the on on the
(28:02):
listening right now, you know,so they're there's a lot of
resource limitations right now.
We've talked about like supplychain issues and shortages and
things like that.
They're we're kind of all undera tremendous amount of pressure
on teams.
What is it costing organizationsin concrete terms when the
internal experience is brokenand no one's naming it?
(28:22):
Because that just sort of feelslike one of the bigger, heavier
things, kind of like theelephant in the room that's
sitting in every meeting roomoutside of all the other things
I just said that are happeningin the world and affecting
business.
SPEAKER_02 (28:35):
So if um we'll go back to the example earlier in
my career and I'll bring thatforward to different things I've
seen, but let's we can startthere.
Um, when I first worked with theteam before we had that meltdown
day, um they were struggling toget customers to pay for
support.
They weren't offering a greatexperience, people didn't really
(28:58):
trust them, right?
The customers didn't.
Um, so it just it it um itdidn't help make it worthwhile
for someone to buy the software.
But once they started winningawards, suddenly people, you
know, it is a spark to buy,right?
To make that purchase because itis, you know, that if you have a
problem, someone will help youand you can trust in that.
(29:20):
Um I would say I see this inalmost every organization that
if you don't um make it a greatplace to work, we can use an
example like Zappos, right?
So Zappos was a wonderful likeplace to work.
I am not so sure now because ofwhere it's falling, right?
(29:41):
But um, when it was first out,that was like the case study,
right?
Great place to work.
They treated customers great,they made money hand over fist
because everyone was happy andwanted, like you said, they
wanted to put forward like thebest experience possible to
engage with customers becausethey saw, you know, I think
(30:02):
companies forget that we're thatcompanies are made of people,
right?
Customers are people, youremployees are people, and um
without customers, the lightsdon't stay on.
We don't like to say that,right?
Which I find fascinating, right?
(30:22):
And and I think evenshareholders know that if your
customers aren't happy, thelights don't stay on.
And if your employees aren'thappy, they're not doing things
to keep customers coming back,and it's just an ecosystem.
And I think that's one of thethings that um I did get a sense
(30:44):
more of a sense of being in likea business school in Europe
versus in the US.
In the US, it's very moneyfocused, right?
In Europe, we were all taughtabout ecosystems, like it was
almost exhausting by the end,right?
Everything's an ecosystem,right?
And when you look at it thatway, you make different
decisions and you realize theconnection between the ecosystem
(31:08):
and the bottom line.
And I would say I think anothergood one um example would be
like the Apple um app store.
And we could also say the GoogleApp Store, right?
Because you have a developercommunity, you have the
customers, you have the uh theemployees, right?
And you have to keep that inharmony so everyone's
(31:28):
contributing.
Customer data comes in, right?
The developers use it, Appleuses it.
Same with Google, the same thingis happening with Google too,
right?
Everyone's using the data, andthen you have success because
everyone's contributing, right?
Um, if you don't have venues forthat and a way to respect
everyone and want thatcontribution, you you you
(31:52):
exclude people, and exclusionmeans no.
I hate to say it, exclusionmeans no money.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (31:58):
I mean, I think it should be boiled down to that
because yeah, we should also sayon the flip side, inclusion
equals money, people.
The numbers tell us.
Yes.
Oh, goodness.
SPEAKER_02 (32:10):
We've been having this conversation for 40 years.
SPEAKER_01 (32:12):
Anyway, I know, right?
And we keep on have just keep onbeating that drama, Mary.
All right.
So this this episode is calledthe Art of Acceptance, and that
phrase means something specificto you and the work that you do.
What does acceptance actuallylook like as a business strategy
or a leadership practice, whichis a great segue from our
inclusion?
SPEAKER_02 (32:31):
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
So um how I kind of got here, Ioriginally wanted to write a
book about listening.
To me, listening is what it'sthe core to my work.
If I didn't have um, if I didn'thave good listening skills, I I
wouldn't have make it, Iwouldn't have clients, right?
That's just the way it is,right?
Um, so I started writing thisbook and um I'm like, oh my God,
(32:52):
I'm just pontificating and it'sboring.
And I was reading and going, ohmy God, who'd want to read this?
So I'm like, there has to besomething more to this.
So I I sat on it for a long timeactually, like, what's going on?
When I'm listening, what'sreally happening?
And what keeps coming to mindwas this was a while back when I
(33:13):
first moved to Dallas.
I went to the farmer's marketand I met this woman who was
selling like all these pickledgood items, right?
And I didn't know her from Adam,right?
So she's a brand new person,right?
And I and she's she uh has allthese little tasting things,
right?
And I I try some stuff, I'mlike, wow, that's really good.
And she starts sharing her lifestory, and she got really in
(33:34):
depth.
And part of me was like, why isshe sharing the story with me?
Right, what's what's going on?
And I started realizing fromthere I like heard other
people's lives, life stories.
And I started realizing it'sbecause I'm accepting them.
I'm not looking at them likeyou're crazy or I don't think
it's true.
Like it's just you're it I'maccepting what's being told to
(33:56):
me, right?
And and this kind of gets to myfavorite proverb, right?
Um, where you know, this youhave this farmer and his horse
runs away, and the village goes,you know, oh, that's terrible,
and he goes, you know, let'ssee, right?
And then the the he that horsebrings a bunch of horses back,
and everyone goes, Oh, that's sogreat.
And he goes, Oh, let's see,right?
And then he goes to the the histhe farmer's um kid, tries to
(34:18):
train a horse, he breaks hisleg, oh that's terrible, right?
Then he doesn't get put in themilitary because of the broken
leg, right?
And it's kind of like notreading into stuff, and that's
what I started realizing, likeyou can't, and and I I kind of
find as a leadership strategy,it makes leading so much
lighter, yeah, and so much morefun.
(34:39):
Because you're not sitting theretrying to analyze why is this
team member not doing you, justhave the conversation, yeah,
right?
And just go, I don't understand.
Like, and yes, I walk aroundperpetually confused all day.
I swear, everyone I go intomeetings and I just go, I don't
understand, or I'm confused.
And I swear everyone's wonders,how does she exist?
(35:00):
That's all I say.
I don't understand, but you knowwhat?
It's easier and it's not mybusiness to try to figure out
what everybody's, you know, whatwhat they're thinking.
Like let's just take people asthey are, as they arrive, um,
and not try to read into it andjust accept what they're doing
(35:23):
and showing us, and accept whatthey're showing us, right?
That's the next key to this,right?
That's the next part of it forsure.
Um, you know, um, because I dhave had um management and
leadership situations where Ihad to accept what was being
told to me.
And yeah, it's not so great.
SPEAKER_01 (35:37):
Sucky.
Yeah.
No, I do.
I've heard that proverb, themaybe story of where, like,
yeah, it's like maybe, maybe.
And oftentimes we do.
We tend to put narratives tothings where there is no
narrative, and that actuallyreduces opportunity.
It makes us maybe pass on thosethings.
It also kind of reminds me ofthe first time I got to hear
Brene Brown speak before shekind of made it big.
(35:59):
Um, I was at a how designconference, I want to say in
like 20, well, I guess it wouldhave been like 2014, 2015.
And she was talking about like acoworker at the university where
she was doing research in Texas,and she was talking about doing
her research in shame and shewas pitching it.
And the woman who was with herwas on her phone and just
messaging and not payingattention.
(36:21):
And Brene was so pissed off ather and was like, she just got
something out for me.
It's just because I'm anotherwoman.
She doesn't want me to besuccessful.
And she just went home and waslike bitching to her husband
about it and all this stuff.
And she sat down that night andshe wrote her this scathing
email about how rude she was andhow inconsiderate she was.
And the woman wrote back, like,I am incredibly sorry.
(36:43):
I really should have canceledthat meeting.
The reason I was on my phone isbecause our family dog had been
hit by a car and we had to havethe make the decision to put him
down in that moment.
I should have just put my phonedown and told you what was
happening and walked out of theroom and saved the meeting for
later.
So Britain obviously felt like abig old jerk.
But it's funny how one person'ssituation, losing a family pet
(37:04):
to this other person just lookedlike outright refusal to listen
and to pay attention and to bepresent.
But how easy would it have beento just be like, listen, I'm
having this moment and I reallyneed a time.
I need to reschedule this.
Or even for Brene to look at herand say, you know what,
something feels off here.
I don't feel like you're reallyinto what I'm talking about
right now.
Is this not the right timeversus making the assumption,
(37:26):
assuming and then, you know,sort of accepting the situation
for what it is versus putting anarrative to it?
SPEAKER_02 (37:33):
Yes, exactly.
Like you, like you j exactlythat.
Yes.
It it's um, you know, I thinkthis the I'm glad you brought up
that example.
Um, because this kind of gets tovirtual meetings.
And I'll just do this to this.
This is an example I use in thebook, is like virtual meetings,
right?
And and there are moments thatthere'll be discussions and it's
(37:56):
hard to get a word in edgewise.
I think we've all been wherewe're like, oh my goodness, like
will someone take a break,right?
And and you know, that can getmisinterpreted on so many
levels.
And you know, I I think one ofthe the gaps in organizations,
there really should befacilitators at in these calls
to pay attention to what'shappening in the room.
(38:18):
Um, because you know, peoplesometimes I think they're all
like they don't intend to docertain things unless you start
seeing a pattern, right?
Now that's completely different.
If you're observing a pattern,that's different.
But let's say um, you know,someone just keep keeps talking,
there's anxiety issues.
Um we don't realize um the US isincredibly and it's an
(38:42):
incredibly anxious country,yeah.
And anxiety can come out in somany different ways.
That you know, people I I'venoticed oh over talking, like
like again, oh my god, take abreak.
But just it, you know, it howhow do you, if you can, try to
(39:02):
have a facilitator or just tryto be mindful.
SPEAKER_01 (39:07):
Yeah, yeah, I agree.
And then I think acceptance too.
I mean, you were talkingearlier, your example about time
zone difference, you know, justbeing more accepting and
understanding there, having someempathy, thinking about what
it's like on the other side,showing people some grace.
I think that's another thingtoo.
Oftentimes, like we've got ourstandards up so high.
And I mean, everybody wants tobe considered.
(39:28):
I don't think people most peoplecome in on to calls or meetings
and they're like, oh, I'm justgonna make everybody pissed.
No, like it's just there'salways something else happening.
It kind of also reminds me of umkind of like that practice of
whenever um somebody cuts youoff in traffic or does something
rude.
I just I can usually, I used toget so mad, but now I'm like, I
can let that go.
Like honestly, I can let thatgo.
(39:49):
Like there, there is somethingelse on their mind, or they're
on their phone, or they're justdoing their like they're in
their whole own little world.
And I'm not saying it's anexcuse.
It's just saying this is notsomething I can control right
now.
All I can control is how Irespond.
SPEAKER_02 (40:03):
Yes, yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
The world is bigger.
And that's I think acceptingaccepting that that it's um, you
know, I think a challenging linewe've been we've been fed is
like the idea that the worldworks for you.
And I found it light, itlightened my load to let that
(40:23):
go.
Yeah.
Like, no, it doesn't.
Yeah.
unknown (40:27):
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (40:29):
It's just there.
And you're doing what you canand trying to get through it,
and so is everyone else inthere.
SPEAKER_01 (40:38):
Like you said, like the yeah.
We're all just out here tryingto survive.
Just a little more acceptanceand understanding.
Give give yourself and everyoneelse a little bit of grace.
unknown (40:51):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (40:51):
All right.
So when you're walking into likea new client engagement, what is
it that you're trying tounderstand before any strategy
or deliverable comes into thatspace?
Is there like a question thatyou always like to ask that
tends to crack things open?
Like what helps you sort of getto the nitty-gritty of maybe
what um they might be strugglingwith?
SPEAKER_02 (41:09):
Yeah, before I go in, what I've found, um what
I've found lately is to makesure I check out their LinkedIn
profile a little bit.
Right.
Um, some or or I hear throughthe grave find who someone is,
right?
Um and then I'll listen and letthem kind of drive the
(41:29):
conversation.
Um because you know, they mightum what the what often what I
get called in to do isn't whatneeds to be done.
Right.
There is a um there is a bit ofa misdiagnosis of the problem,
(41:50):
right?
Or they think they know what theproblem is, and then when you
start listening, it might be adifferent problem.
Or that is one of the manyproblems that need to be
resolved, right?
Like there's other thingshappening.
So how do you how do you getthat right?
And so I listen a lot.
I I I try to just uh basicallyunderstand their situation more.
SPEAKER_01 (42:11):
Love it.
All right, we're coming up toour last question, then we'll go
into the power round.
If you could leave every womanin our audience um one shift,
then how they could seethemselves or their work, what
would it be?
SPEAKER_02 (42:27):
Accept yourself and make sure that you're happy with
what you're doing and what youroutput is.
I think there's so much pressurenow.
And it's not for perfection,right?
Like one thing I notice,especially with the with the
rise of AI, is um a lack ofquality.
And so if you're producingsomething that you think is high
(42:50):
quality, right, and I thinkeverybody should do that.
Like it doesn't have to beperfect, but you're pretty happy
with the quality of it.
Like, um, in general, I knowwhen I with writing, I want to
be sure it sounds pretty good,right?
Um, grammatically correct.
Um when I do out like when Icreate a presentation um after a
study, um, you know, to documentthe study and present findings.
(43:13):
Um, how does this sound?
Does it sound pretty good?
Is it presenting some goodinsights?
Can they do something with this,right?
And make sure I'm happy with it.
Um and I think at times we're inthis whole like you know, fail
fast and all that nonsense.
Like let's try.
(43:34):
Let's try.
Let's do it.
Let's put our like let's try toput our best foot forward.
Sure.
Not our perfect foot, our bestfoot.
SPEAKER_01 (43:41):
Yeah.
No, that makes sense.
Awesome.
All right, Mary, I'm gonna gointo the power round now.
Okay, these are kind of quickrapid fire question answers.
Um, one thing you have had topractice um accepting that
surprised you.
SPEAKER_02 (43:58):
That in I think it's been more in the past few years,
but how in the world we alldon't share the same values.
And we like to assume, and Ididn't realize how much I did
this.
Um, we like to assume that weall share the same values.
No, we don't.
No, we don't.
And it's not that um and onceit's hard to accept, especially
(44:24):
certain people close to you thatyou might want to think, oh
yeah, we're all the same.
No, no, no, no.
Right.
And once you accept that, theworld becomes a very different
place.
And it's not a scary place, it'sjust a different place.
Um and um a lot of the worldbecomes a lot clearer.
SPEAKER_01 (44:42):
Yeah.
For seeing it for what it reallyis.
Trust the data.
Yeah, trust what they're showingyou.
Believe it, they're gonna showyou, believe it.
All right, finish this sentence.
The most underrated leadershipskill is listening.
Listening and acceptance.
And on that note, what's onesign that somebody is truly
listening to you?
SPEAKER_02 (45:03):
That's a great question.
Um you know thinking about thisand looking at like being out
out in the world and you know,all this stuff, I would say it
this is gonna sound weirdbecause we we're always told do
the act of listening and repeatback, blah blah blah.
(45:24):
Right.
And and I've been in so manysituations where the person
repeated back.
No, they didn't even mean like Irepeated it back, and no, no, I
didn't.
You know what?
It's the emotional engagement,and I'm gonna say that it's the
emotional contagion and feelingthat sense of emotion with other
people.
You know, there's actually um toshare it, there's there's this,
there's this theory, um, RandallCollins, and he did this
(45:47):
interaction um ritual chaintheory.
And an example that he that hehighlights a lot is um smokers.
I know it's terrible, right?
But but anyone who who has beena smoker, right, they've they
know when you go out to smoke,you all have that in common and
you do have some type ofemotional connection.
It's more of a solidarity, it'snot like you're besties, right?
But you have that solidarity.
(46:08):
Um, and I would say when you'rein a meeting and there always is
an emotional contagion.
I think we don't like to talkabout that.
We like to think, oh, we're inbusiness, we're so rational.
Bottom line result.
And again, like we share all thesame values of what that looks
like, right?
To some it's a it's a profit, tosome it's a revenue, to some
it's market share, right?
That's not the same.
(46:30):
But if we can leave feeling likewe can do this and we're
excited, and we're happy to behere, and we're happy to work
with each other.
I feel like, you know, that's asodd as this sounds.
Like I think people leave thosemeetings and they they listen to
something, they heard somethingin those moments.
SPEAKER_01 (46:48):
I love that.
All right.
My last question then that Ihave is one word that describes
what acceptance has given you.
Peace.
Yeah, that's a good one.
I agree, I agree.
Love acceptance.
Um, I have like a whole talkthat I did on mindfulness that's
um, you know, it's yield toovercome, it's impermanence,
(47:10):
it's like um I'm trying toremember, I there was like four
or five different parts of it,but a lot of it was acceptance
and um acceptance of outcome orallowing just outcome to be what
it needs to be and all that kindof stuff.
There's an absolute freedom toall of that.
So what a great word,acceptance.
We appreciate it, Mary, and allof your amazing insights and
(47:31):
your studies and your research.
I'm so excited.
Please keep in touch.
Um, I want to hear howeverything goes with your
research and you're getting yourPhD.
We'll be calling you Dr.
Brody when you come back tomaybe share some more about that
and what your insights are fornow.
What are some of the best waysthat our listeners can get a
hold of you if they want to talkmore?
SPEAKER_02 (47:49):
I'm sure.
Um, you can reach me throughemail, M F Brody, M is in Mary,
F is and Frank, B-R-O-D-I-E atGearMark.com.
I am also on LinkedIn.
Um, Mary Brody, you can find me.
Um, I'd say those are the thebest ways.
Fantastic.
SPEAKER_01 (48:07):
Well, thank you so much, Mary.
This has been fantastic.
Such a grounding and generousconversation.
Thank you for reminding us thatsome of the most strategic work
we can do is leaders is also themost human.
It's great.
Wonderful.
All right, everyone.
Yeah, we appreciate you all.
If today's uh conversationresonated with you, this is
exactly the kind of dialogue wecreate every week inside
Together Digital, a community ofwomen who show up for each other
(48:29):
in every stage of the journey.
So whether you're just figuringthings out, you're feeling a
little stuck, ready to scale, oralready soaring, um, you're
going to find your people here.
So again, you can find us attogetherindigital.com.
We'd love to have you all.
And until next time, everyone,keep asking, keep giving, and
keep growing.
We'll see you soon.
SPEAKER_02 (48:55):
Produced by Heartcast Media.
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