The Neuroscience of Leadership

Why your nervous system, not your willpower, decides how you lead

Your brain decides whether to trust someone in about three seconds, long before you have said a word. Dr. Zakia Ghafari says that same wiring is running the show every time you walk into a hard meeting, and most leaders have no idea they are fighting their own nervous system instead of leading. This episode breaks down the actual neuroscience of leadership behind that reaction, in plain, useful terms.

For women in leadership especially, that fight shows up as over preparing, over explaining, and quietly burning out while everything on paper looks fine. That is exactly the kind of pattern this women leadership podcast exists to name out loud. Zakia has spent twenty five years as a geriatric pharmacist watching this pattern play out in real time, and she built a framework to interrupt it before it becomes a full shutdown.

Dr. Zakia Ghafari is a pharmacist, speaker, and thought leader who helps individuals and organizations create sustainable change without burnout. Drawing on neuroscience and behavioral design, she developed the Wired to Lead framework, which reframes resistance as a clarity problem instead of a motivation problem. She joins Amy Vaughan for a conversation about emotional intelligence, self regulation, and why your humanity, not your hustle, is your greatest leadership asset.

Key Takeaways

• Your brain decides within three to four seconds whether it trusts someone, long before it registers what they are actually saying.
• The same alarm system that fires when you face real danger also fires in a stressful meeting, which is why preparation alone does not calm a racing heart.
• Willpower is not the reason New Year's resolutions fail, your brain reads any change in routine as a risk until a new habit becomes familiar.
• Naming an emotion out loud, even silently to yourself, brings your logical brain back online within two to three seconds.
• Real influence means giving someone else enough room to disagree with you and staying okay with it.
• Dr. Zakia Ghafari said, 'Discipline cannot override a nervous system that always feels like it's under threat.'
• Dr. Zakia Ghafari said, 'You're not doing it wrong. It's not a character flaw. It's just biology.'

Timestamps

00:00 Welcome and introducing Dr. Zakia Ghafari

01:23 Why emotional intelligence beats artificial intelligence

06:09 What emotional intelligence actually is, and the biggest misconception

08:19 The gut brain connection and where intuition comes from

08:50 The lion in the room, how your brain confuses a meeting with real danger

10:59 Why your brain is wired for prediction, not change

13:14 The Wired to Lead framework and the WIRE method

23:09 How burnout shows up first as quiet emotional withdrawal

26:30 Toxic wellness culture and the shame of not keeping up

30:05 The kinds of wiring behind approval, connection, and worth

32:36 How to self regulate in two to three seconds

40:16 Why women feel they have to prove themselves ten times over

46:10 Building systems that make change inevitable

54:39 Power round, rapid fire questions with Dr. Zakia Ghafari

Connect with Dr. Zakia Ghafari

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/zakiaghafari/

Instagram: @DrZakiyyahSpeaks

Support the show

Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_03 (00:00):
The way I like to put this is if you come across a
lion, let's say you go to thezoo and the lion comes out of
the cage and he's standing rightin front of you, your brain,
your alarm system in your brain,the amygdala starts to fire
immediately and say, I'm indanger, there's a problem, I
need to do something about it.
And then inevitably you start toeither quietly burn out or you

(00:24):
just burn and crash.
You hold it together for a longtime, you hold your breath, and
then you just burn and crash,right?

SPEAKER_00 (00:32):
I was at a bar with this guy, like that I just
happened to meet within a groupsetting, and he was such a jerk,
and he was all like, I have athree million dollar company,
and uh blah blah.
Like if women just startedcompeting more, like they could
do just as well as men, becauseI told him what I did for a
living, so he felt the need toschool me on how we don't need
women's networks andorganizations.
I was like, listen.
Yeah, I was like, listen, I waslike, we are not running the

(00:54):
same race, and my finish line isnot your finish line.
Hello everyone, and welcome toour weekly power lounge.
This is your place to hearauthentic conversations from
those who have power to share.
My name is Amy Vaughn, and I amthe owner and chief empowerment

(01:16):
officer of Together Digital, adiverse and collaborative
community of women who choose towork in digital, who work in
digital and choose to sharetheir knowledge, power, and
connections.
You can join the movement atTogetherIndigital.com.
And today we are diving intosomething that might feel a
little counterintuitive in ourAI-driven world.
What actually makes us powerfulas leaders isn't AI, artificial

(01:40):
intelligence, it's emotionalintelligence.
And we have the perfect personhere today to help us understand
and break down why that is.
We have Zakia Gafari.
She is a pharmaceuticalpharmacist speaker and thought
leader who has spent yearshelping individuals and
organizations create sustainablechange without burnout.
She's developed the Wired toLead framework, which challenges

(02:03):
everything we think about whatwe know, about willpower and
motivation.
Dr.
Gafari speaks about workplaceculture, leadership, work-life
integration.
And she is here today to help usexplore the neuroscience of
connection and why trust,empathy, and self-regulation are
the real competitive advantagesin a tech-driven world.

(02:25):
So excited to have you here forthis conversation today.
Thanks for joining us.

SPEAKER_03 (02:31):
Thank you so much for having me.
This is very exciting.
I've been listening to yourpodcast for a while, and I love
all the insights that I get fromother women that you have
interviewed.
So it's an honor to be here.

SPEAKER_00 (02:41):
Wonderful.
Thank you so much for listening.
I appreciate that.
That's fantastic.
So, as I mentioned when I firstopened up, you know, a lot of
our conversations lately,especially in marketing and
digital, have been in and aroundthe space of AI and automation.
Um, and your kind of case forit, it's such a good time to
make this argument too, by theway, is that emotional

(03:02):
intelligence is the realcompetitive advantage.
While AI is a tremendous toolfor a lot of us, um, emotional
intelligence is massive.
What moment in maybe your careerdid you begin to truly
understand the neuroscience andthe importance behind that?

SPEAKER_03 (03:18):
That's a great question.
So for the last 25 years plus,uh that's a in my in my mind
still, it's a huge numberbecause I can't believe I've
been in my career for over 25years, right?
Um so for 25 years plus, I'vebeen a geriatric pharmacist and
I've worked uh in multiplelong-term care facilities and

(03:38):
rehab centers and nursing homesacross the New York City
tri-state area.
And what I've seen both in theclinicians that I work alongside
and also the patients that wesee on a day-to-day basis, is
something that's veryfundamental and foundational to
all of us.
But I think it's not somethingthat is spoken about all that
much.
So in this age of AI, artificialintelligence, I like to talk

(04:02):
about the actual AI, which isactual intelligence, which is
human intelligence or emotionalintelligence, as you mentioned
before.
And that is the one thing thatseparates us from everyone else
as humans, as a species.
But moving forward as well, Iremain insanely hopeful because
that is that will be thedividing factor between those

(04:24):
who continue to like lean intotheir own intuition and their
own voice, as opposed to justfollowing what AI is prompting
them to do or prompting them tosay, right?
Um, we as humans have been,we've been, we have this
internal detection system,whether you realize it or not.

(04:45):
And studies have shown this overand over again, where when you
meet someone for the first time,you your brand your brain makes
up their mind about if you trustthis person, if you can be
friends with this person, ifthis person is a safe space, so
to speak.
All of this is done within likethree to four seconds.
This is before you even havetaken uh account of what they're

(05:06):
saying, how they're sayingthings, what their name is, if
they have an accent, where theygrew up, what kind of education
they have, what they're evenwearing, right?
How they're moving.
Like nothing's happening.
You meet them for the first timeand you're already deciphering.
Your brain is deciphering ifthis is someone I can trust, if
this is someone I can talk to.
And that is something that Ithink we have lost a little bit

(05:28):
of sight of when we speak toleaders in C-suite, in leaders
in a team setting.
Because we are constantly giventhese checkoff lists of
management and what to do andhow to do things and follow this
protocol and follow thatprotocol to the point where we
kind of lose that human touchsometimes.

(05:48):
And I think uh workplace culturein this day and age is more
important than it has ever been.
So if you think about like inthe 1950s, 1940s, there was um a
difference in the workplaceculture where the uh your
employee was would be loyal toyou based on the lifestyle that

(06:08):
they're living by working forthis company, right?
Meaning that it doesn't reallymatter what the office space fe
felt like or looked like as longas the the person is um offering
the output that they have signedup for, and also they are being
received or compensated on theirend so that they can live a life
outside of work.

(06:29):
And so everything was kind ofdemarcated in that way.
But nowadays we have everythingso much more intertwined where
not only are we working fromhome, we're working remotely
majority of the time, if not allthe time.
Um so it has, and in those of uswho do go into the office for
you know face to face-to-faceinteractions on a daily basis,

(06:52):
even that has changed quite abit.

SPEAKER_01 (06:53):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (06:54):
So I think now is more important to understand
this topic than it has ever beenin the past.

SPEAKER_00 (07:00):
Yeah, I love it.
How would you describe or frameup for those?
I mean, I feel like most peopleknow what emotional intelligence
is, but I don't know.
Like, what are somemisconceptions about like can
you define what emotionalintelligence is for us?
And then what are somemisconceptions about what it is?
Just to make it really clear forpeople.

SPEAKER_03 (07:16):
Sure.
Emotional intelligence iseverything outside of the
intellect.
It's how you feel, what energyyou're receiving, what energy
you're putting out, um what youare seeing as far as
microexpressions in the otherperson, what you are seeing and
hearing as far as the types ofwords and what they're saying
when it comes to that.

(07:36):
So it's not just one thing, it'sa package of different things
that that helps you to decipherinternally if this person is
trustable.
I think that's pretty much it.
So the misconception is that ifyou are high in emotional
intelligence, that maybe you'relike the artsy type, that you

(07:57):
are very granola, that you, youknow, you do a lot of
meditation, or you drink soy.
You know, these there are thingslike this that exist.
And I have to say it has nothingreally to do with that.
I think each of us as humanswere born with this emotional
intelligence right off the bat.
That's like the number one superimportant thing for babies is to
decipher what the person infront of them is, what they look

(08:21):
like, how what what the it makesthe the baby feel like in order
for them to feel safe.
And then I think along the waywe kind of lose sight of that,
unfortunately, as adults,because we get very ingrained in
a path of like, well, this iswhat I'm supposed to do, this is
how I'm supposed to act.

SPEAKER_01 (08:36):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (08:36):
Um, and then and so we lose sight of that part part
of ourselves, but also we don'tnecessarily lean into our
intuition as much either, whichis which is a shame.

unknown (08:47):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (08:47):
It is, especially I think for women.
I think we're often taught tokind of stuff that down, hold
that back, that it's woo, youknow, if we really trust our
gut.
But your gut really is a milliondifferent like little like
neurons firing, right?
Of you sensing or detectingsafety versus danger versus
pattern recognition.
Like there's so many messages.

(09:08):
We think it's just our gut, butit's really like, in my opinion,
it's almost like oursubconscious um kind of prod
taking and processing all ofthat collective data.
And it gives us a gut feeling,but that feeling is also data,
you know?
And so I think I don't thinkthere's anything woo about it,
actually, when you kind of breakit down that way.

SPEAKER_03 (09:26):
No, I think I think exactly that phrase that we've
heard for decades.
I had a gut feeling about that,right?
So immediately when you seesomething that doesn't feel
right, um, it you feel it inyour stomach or in your gut
first.
Part of the reason for that isbecause you have more serotonin
um like receptors in your gutthan you do anywhere else in

(09:49):
your body.
And so that is actually yoursafety zone that's that's
connected to your brain.
So the way I like to put this isif you come across a lion, let's
say you go to the zoo and thelion comes out of the cage and
he's standing right in front ofyou, your brain, your alarm

(10:09):
system in your brain, theamygdala starts to fire
immediately and say, I'm indanger, there's a problem, I
need to do something about it.
And when the amygdala in yourbrain fires, you lose sight of
what is logical.
You lean into fight or flight.
So either you're going to dosomething drastic, and this is
where, like, the mom that can,you know, raise a car, like lift

(10:30):
up a 300-pound car out ofnowhere, if God forbid
something, uh her child is stuckunderneath, all of that comes
into play.
It has nothing to do with logic,it has to do with biology alone.
That's it.
And so you could be staring atthis lying in the face and
feeling that way, or or majorityof us in in this day and age, we
could be standing in front of aroom of you know, the board,

(10:54):
your coworkers at a meeting, andyou're presenting something, and
it feels the same way.
Your brain is it's likedetecting both things as being
the same thing.
It's just all it's seeing isthat this is a threat, the line
is a threat, but this meeting isalso a threat, right?
Yeah, yeah.
And so the the one of thebiggest things to kind of allow

(11:18):
your body and your brain todecipher the two between the two
is to literally tell your brain,we are in two different zones.
I'm standing in front of ameeting, but you have to remind
yourself that you are safe, youare presenting what you've been
working on, you've beenpreparing for this meeting, you
know exactly what you're talkingabout.
This is not a threat.
This is just a differentexperience because you don't do,

(11:41):
you don't give meetings, youdon't lead meetings all the
time.
You don't do it on a daily basisfor it to be like a a normal
thing for you.
I think I think something thatum from the beginning of my
research, something that I foundvery uh surprising was to
understand that your brain isnot there for anything other

(12:03):
than looking at predictionpatterns.
So when you come across, if youif you live, if you wake up and
you go through the same routineevery single morning, that's
something that's built in, thatbecomes automatic, that becomes
habit, and you don't have tothink about it anymore.
And that your brain realizesfrom like you know, two weeks,
three weeks of worth of worth ofdata that every morning when you

(12:25):
wake up and you turn on thecoffee machine and you do this,
this, and this, you take thesesteps by nine o'clock, you're
safe.
So all of those steps can berepeated because you end up
being safe.
Now, if you try to change thathabit and say, instead of
coffee, I'm going to drink tea.
Instead of waking up at 8:30 andbeing rushed to get out of the
door, I'm going to wake up at7:30 and do something different.

(12:49):
There's a lot of um resistancein your brain to say, what is
this?
Like this doesn't feel right.
This is not something that I'veseen before.
And it it uh it starts to beread as a risk.
It starts to be read as athreat.
Meanwhile, it's there's reallynothing threatening about this

(13:09):
at all.
It's just a change in habit foryou.
Uh it's a new day, uh, a newpath that you're walking down.

SPEAKER_02 (13:16):
Right.

SPEAKER_03 (13:17):
Um, I mean, I don't, I don't, I haven't done like New
Year's resolutions in a longtime, in a long, long time.
But I know I used to do that.
I'm sure you did that as well,right?
Used to.
You would you would have a listof like 10 to 20 goals that you
would want to start on January1st every year.
And then by like, I don't know,not even the first week, I would

(13:39):
have given up, which I think amajority of us give up in the
same way.

SPEAKER_00 (13:43):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (13:44):
And and we are constantly told this myth that,
well, it's because you don'thave enough willpower.
Right.
Right.
It's not any, it's not anythingelse.
It's you you're not strongenough.
You can't do it because youknow, you have to like really
lean into your brain power andbe like, no, I have to do this.
And you have to like grit yourteeth and like you know, have

(14:06):
your fists like this.
It's not that hard.
Like, literally change andchanging habits and changing the
wiring that you're built with isnot very hard the minute you
understand like the neuroscienceunderneath it.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (14:21):
Yeah, let's talk about that a little bit too,
because you've developed thewire to lead framework, which it
kind of reframes that resistancethat you're talking about with
like a clarity problem, not amotivation problem, like you
were just saying.
Could you kind of walk usthrough a little bit of what
that looks like in practice?
Um, for either a leader tryingto lead change or hell, just
anybody trying to get through aday.

unknown (14:42):
Yes.

SPEAKER_03 (14:43):
That's all of us.
Right?
That is every single one of us,yes.
Um, especially as women, Ithink.
We tend to juggle a lot ofdifferent things.
And so to juggle less and to beokay with juggling less in the
beginning becomes veryuncomfortable and it becomes
very disorienting, even thoughyou're you know that if you

(15:06):
juggled less, you would be lessstressed, you would be more
relaxed, you would be thinkingin in deeper, you know,
wavelengths.
But no, because juggling 10things at the same time is a
norm.
Yeah, we can't let that go,right?
Um, I was guilty of this for along time.
I'm the eldest of five kids inmy family, and so I grew up for

(15:28):
you know decades being like thesecond mom to my younger
siblings.
So there was always something todo, always something to help my
mom with, always something tohelp my siblings with.
Even as like college students,they always needed help with
something, and I was happy to dothat.
But I also, when I transitionedinto my own career, and then um

(15:49):
I had my own children, it itthat habit never let down.
It just continued.
And so, as you know, a workingmom to young kids, um I was
doing the same thing, and manyof us do the same thing, and
then inevitably you start toeither quietly burn out or you

(16:12):
just burn and crash.
You hold it together for a longtime, you hold your breath, and
then you just burn and crash,right?
And I think I've gone throughboth of those in different
cycles throughout the years.
Um, but again, this has to thisthis was way before I understood
what was happening to me and whyI was continuing to do all the
things that I was doing.

(16:33):
So the one thing you need to youneed to keep in mind is that
this is not this the way youbehave is not necessarily uh
part of your character.
It's part of your wiring, andthose two things are very
different.
So your character is part ofyour personality.
It's kind of like how you'reborn, you know, how you if

(16:53):
you're like a giggly person,you're you know, you're happy
all the time, or if you're justmore solemn and serious.
Um, and then there are thingsthat come into play, like if
you've ever done a like apersonality test, right?
There's different traits whereyou could be high or low on a
certain trait, and that is notgood or bad.

(17:14):
It just means that's who youare.
So we're not judging anything.
So when I started to puttogether the wire framework, um,
it's literally just fourletters, W, I, R, E.
You use it in step one to kindof decipher what it is, like
we're witnessing the problem.

(17:35):
And then step two is using thesame acronym with slightly
different changes to um addressthe issue, whatever that problem
might be.
So in the very beginning, what Iuh teach is you have to kind of
take a step back and just be awitness to what it is that
you're going through, to what itis that you're experiencing,

(17:57):
right?
So our our wiring becomes ourfoundation uh from a very young
age.
And this is something that wedon't understand as adults
either.
So between the ages of maybelike two and ten years old,
right?
Wherever you were, whatever yourfamily life looked like,
whatever your cultural lifelooked like, your environment,

(18:18):
whether that was, you know,inside the house, outside the
house, in school, what who yourfriends were, um your
relationship with your parentsand your siblings, if you had
any siblings, that kind ofthing, that all becomes part of
your foundational wiring.
The way you were treated, theway if you were given space, if
you were the type that could,you know, voice their opinions,

(18:38):
things like that.
But then what we don't realizeis after the age of 10 or so,
um, we go into like our teenagephase and we move on to becoming
adults.
We never stop and give ourselvesenough quiet time to say, why do
I do the things that I do?
Yeah, why do I react this way?
Why do I um try to solve anissue in this manner?

(19:03):
Right?
We never do that.
And so, like I want to ask you,for example, when was the last
time you sat in a room with nodistractions, no phone, no
email, no computer, likenothing, nothing around, and you
just sat quietly for fiveminutes without losing your
mind.

SPEAKER_00 (19:21):
Was the last time probably this last weekend?
I do try to practice meditationon a regular basis and
journaling.
And it's so funny.
I'm really glad we're havingthis conversation.
It's so timely.
I literally was just on a Zoomcall with two of my girlfriends,
and one, we're all threebusiness owners, and she was
just going a mile a minute.
I'm feeling this, I'm feelingthat, it's in my body, it's odd.

(19:43):
But business is good,everything's great.
Why do I feel this way?
And that was my advice to herwas I think you need to stop.
I think our our our response tofeeling anything is to not feel
it.
Like, especially if it'sdiscomfort, we want to push it
down because you look at yournumbers, you look at your
business, you look at yourclients, your look, your list of

(20:03):
clients, you're like,everything's great.
But something inside of you islike, it's not.
And I thought I told her, I waslike, I think you need to slow
down and just, you know, sit inthe quiet.
And and I think for a lot ofwomen, I know for me that was a
big struggle.
I also have started, if itcounts, driving without the
radio on.
Like on my way to and from work,it would normally drive me nuts.

(20:25):
But that silence, that time tolet my mind just wander.
Um, I used to have to get in thecar and in or any room and fill
it with noise, you know, turn ona TV, turn on the radio, turn on
a podcast, be listening to abook.
You're right.
We we so seldom just sit instillness.
This is not the norm for oursociety, but I think that's
really where the answers comein.

(20:47):
But continue.
So yes, actually I have.
I do.
Yes, true.

SPEAKER_03 (20:50):
No, I'm so glad you do.
That's it's really important.
And I imagine you are incrediblybusy and you have a lot going on
throughout the week.
So taking some time up foryourself is amazing.
I'm glad you did that.
Um, I think a majority of usdon't do that.
In fact, it was not part of myregular routine for many, many
years, right?
And so it we we as humans havelived thousands of years without

(21:14):
the kind of bombardment of likenoise and sound and visual
effects and things on a minuteto minute basis, yeah, every
single day until you literallyput your head down on the pillow
and your eyes are closed.
Right?
This is not normal, and it itcan be incredibly damaging for
yourself, for for your nervoussystem, 100%, but for your own

(21:39):
peace of mind, for your own likemental stability, absolutely.
And we've seen this over andover again as well, where we've
you know, study after studyshows that our brains are not
made to have this kind ofstimulation on an ongoing basis
all the time, every single day,without taking a break.
Um, I see that this generation,the young.

(22:00):
generation now um and I'm reallyhappy to see that they've leaned
into going back to like the flipphones where it didn't have yeah
any you know no no moresmartphones but like flip phones
where it doesn't have like theinternet or any apps where they
use it just for texting andcalling which is how I grew up
actually so so it would be sameit's great to see that so they

(22:21):
so they are slowly starting torecognize this where they are
being burnt out um and then youknow we have a there's there's a
lot of layers to this as wellthere's an increase of like ADHD
and there's an increase ofbehavioral issues in school and
and it it affects the youth yesbut it also affects adults right
adults can be just as easilyaddicted to an app or to their

(22:44):
screens or to their phones askids are maybe they're a little
less susceptible but we I'vecertainly seen a lot of adults
go through the same cycle um sothat is to say that in this day
and age because we are bombardedwith all these things all the
time it is absolutely importantto take time off but when you're

(23:06):
when your mind is quiet andyou've given yourself and your
nervous system enough time tosay everything's okay we don't
need to like prioritize optimizeanything right now that's when
your creative side starts tocome into play.
So when you're driving longdistances and I I find myself
doing the same thing where Idon't turn on the radio and I

(23:27):
used to I used to be one of verysimilar to you I would be
listening to a podcast while Iwas doing whatever what if I was
running if I was walking outsideif I was doing housework if I'm
like going on a grocery run itwas the same thing.
There was always somethinggoing.
And then I switched that intojust music but even music right

(23:47):
it's the same thing.
It's very like high energy ithas words your brain is still
constantly going um and you getburnt out but the the part about
women being burnt out is theythey start to burn out slow and
long term and then you start toslowly quietly resign from every

(24:11):
facet of your life and majorityof the time it's emotionally
first because that can be verytaxing.
So you find your emotions beingum kind of like dampened right
so you're not as happy as younormally were you're not as
you're not as whatever thatemotion is that you're going
through you're not as elated asyou normally would have been

(24:31):
you're not as you're notenjoying this cup of coffee
that's amazing the way you wouldhave if you were just at peace.
So the quiet resignation that wesee among I I think it's not
millennials maybe millennials isvery similar to this where
they're constantly going on withoh so many different things that

(24:53):
nothing feels important, nothingfeels amazing, nothing feels
like it's giving themcontentment and they slowly
start to quietly resign.
So it's happening at home it'shappening in social life it's
happening in the workplacethere's no place that you can go
where this is not necessarily apart of that.
Yeah which is really sad.

SPEAKER_00 (25:13):
Yeah it's hard to get away from for sure I am
legit too actually in the middleof so if anybody listening is
interested I'm planning adigital detox retreat in Costa
Rica.
A friend of mine just bought oris renting a house and redoing
it and my goal is to really youknow I do think you said it like
a burnout I think is a result ofoverstimulation and even

(25:33):
retreats sometimes I think wefeel like everything has to be
productive and our productivityis our value, but that's so not
true.
Like we've forgotten how to bemindful and like you even said
enjoy like mindfully sit andjust enjoy a cup of coffee.
Like that's a one of my favoritemindfulness practices is to
brush your teeth and only thinkabout brushing your teeth.

(25:53):
It is hard.
And then like you were sayingearlier too it's because it's
like it's all a practice and ifwe don't get it perfect because
of like we see like oh we didlike the the New Year's
resolution you were talkingabout oh it didn't happen and it
didn't happen perfectly becauseour brains like it wants those
shortcuts, we just throw it out.
We're like oh that didn't workso I'm never going to try again

(26:14):
and that's why it's like I willgo months without meditating but
I will never not go back to thepractice because that's just
what it is and you have to showyourself that grace.
Yeah.
So I'm excited to keep talkingwith you about all of this
because it again it all feelsreally timely and and relevant
in the sense of like thisretreat that I'm working through
and planning and just the seasonI think that we're all in, you

(26:37):
know, as a society, as a cultureum where this just incessant
over simulation is is constantlybearing down on us.
In the meantime, we feel thesense of you know this need to
be perfect and productive andsometimes perfection and
productivity is going to goagainst all of that.
And I think that kind of goesnicely into our next topic which

(26:58):
is about self-regulation umwhich is important for I think
leadership but then also justimportant for you being able to
move throughout the world in away that is um responsive but
maybe not reactive I guess.
So I would love for you to kindof explain to people because I
don't think we talk enough aboutself-regulation but what is

(27:20):
self-regulation and for womenwho carry a lot of that
invisible labor and the weightof sometimes the world what does
that actually mean?
What does that look like?

SPEAKER_03 (27:30):
And where do we start to start to find that
sense of uh the ability to toregulate ourselves this is very
important and you're right wedon't talk about this enough I
think we lean a lot towards orthe last like 10 years or 15
years we have seen an incrediblerise in toxic wellness and then
there's a rise in the shaming ofthose who don't participate in

(27:54):
that but are burnt out.
Yeah and you have to understandthe two are one and the same.
Okay the reason why I say thatis because toxic wellness is not
just the kind of supplements andvitamins that you're taking but
it also goes into this wholerealm of well you have to wake
up at 5 a.m and you got tomeditate for two and a half
hours and then you got to take16 vitamins and you know you

(28:16):
have to you need to be wearingthis thing and you have to be
stretching this way and ifyou're oh you're not you didn't
do that oh my God you didn't dothat how why are you
complaining?
You haven't done the work ofcourse you're gonna be burnt out
of course you're gonna be sad.
But that's not normal living I'msorry like even the person
that's showing that to you onsome uh TikTok clip they're not

(28:37):
doing that on a daily basis whohas the time to sit there and
meditate for two hours everysingle day I certainly don't
that's you know unless you'relike retired sure which is
awesome it's not it's not areality for many of us.
At the same time I think like somany of us just want a quick fix

(29:00):
that we're willing to copysomeone else who who tells us
that this worked for me, this isgoing to work for you.
No matter how many steps it hasno matter how uncomfortable it
is for us.
And then and you'll know foryourself when you start to do
some of these practices if youdo if you if you are inspired by
some of them you'll notice foryourself within a day or two if

(29:21):
this feels like it's alignedwith you or if it's just
something that you're followingblindly right um self-regulation
is a is a big thing and this isanother part part where they
leave the myth is well if you'renot doing you know self-care
days you're not doing uh what isit called mental health days
every so often then it'sactually your fault you're the

(29:44):
one that's you're not feelinggreat because you're not taking
the time to do it.
When in fact I think we havelike how do I put this we've
kind of like made even wellnessinto this clinical diagnosis
thing where at one point youused to just be living just that

(30:05):
was it there was no name for ityou didn't need a hashtag you
didn't need like a TikTok videoto show you how you just woke up
in the morning and you just didthe things that you did.
And there was no rush and therewas no like push for being um
hundred percent productive everysingle minute of the day from
the minute you wake up in themorning.
Now unfortunately we have somany things in our face again

(30:27):
right so from the minute youwake up if you're if you're the
type of person which a majorityof us are where you open up an
app and you'll see within thefirst minute you'll see like 10
different people doing 10different awesome things and
you're like well I'm not doingany of that I I must be I must
not be optimizing.
I must be behind and so you havethis guilt that starts to build

(30:47):
underneath where it's like oh Ishould be doing that I should be
doing that.
But who is telling you that weshould be doing anything right
we start to second guess likeourselves and how we're supposed
to function.
When we take all thesedistractions away you as a human
you as a woman know exactly whatyou're supposed to be doing.
Yeah if you just follow yourintuition you follow where what

(31:10):
feels comfortable and what feelsgood to you right so um part of
like regulating is first beinghonest of where these emotions
are coming from like when youare so I talk about five
different kinds of wiring thatget triggered when you feel out
of sorts.
Is it the approval wiringconnection wiring uh

(31:34):
communication wiring um sorryI'm forgetting my own wiring now
uh worth worth wiring right sothere are there are different
situations that we get triggeredor we feel uncomfortable or
we're out of sorts because it'striggering this particular
wiring.

SPEAKER_02 (31:53):
Right.

SPEAKER_03 (31:54):
There are people that'll stay for example in in a
company or in in a friendshipeven for a long time because
they feel like if well if Idon't have this friendship, if I
don't have her as a friend, Idon't even know who I am as a
person.
Like and they're they're soafraid of letting go of that
connection that they they don'trealize that this this

(32:14):
friendship in itself is nothealthy for you.
It might be even toxic.
But they stay in it long termand then they're wondering why
they're so upset and they're whythey're so um like angry or
irritated all the time outsidein in in their own life.

SPEAKER_02 (32:31):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (32:31):
When it comes to leadership I think the majority
of the the triggering comes fromthe approval wire where they we
tend to especially as women wetend to like practice that one
sentence that's going to comeout of our mouth three, four
times before we actually say it.
We will do the research untilthree o'clock in the morning and
we're presenting the next dayjust to make sure that we have

(32:52):
like every single detail so wedon't miss anything.
Right.
So because we're we're all allof our uh self worth is tied
into the output of whatever itis we're presenting.
And so if I get something wrongit doesn't mean that maybe
there's a difference of opinionin in my head I'm thinking no

(33:12):
it's me I'm the problem rightand that's where like again your
alarm system goes off so youlose all of your logical
thinking and you lean into theillogical thinking of like fight
or flight.
And so you're like either youget angry and you start to push
back on the person thatquestioned you meanwhile they
may have asked you the questionbecause they needed some

(33:33):
clarification.
They may have raised their handto say well you know you're
telling me this but there's alsothis as a possibility but you're
not seeing it that way.
You're seeing it as a threat.
Yeah.
And then or you'll completelyshut down which a lot of us do
is like we start to say well Idon't know anything.
I'm like imposter syndromestarts to come into play right

(33:54):
so the number one thing that Iteach is in order to regulate in
order to tame your emotions youneed to actually name what it is
you're feeling right so in themeeting when someone is
questioning you and this iswhere your brain is going like
you're it's seeing it as athreat instead of saying oh my

(34:16):
God my entire thing is fallingapart like I prepared and is
this is terrible I like I'mhorrible at this I'm never gonna
do this again right what if youjust said one or two words to
regulate your emotions rightthere and all of this is done
within like two to three secondsyou just you do it in your head.
You don't need to say anythingout loud.

(34:37):
So instead of sayingeverything's falling apart if
you say I'm afraid that maybe Ididn't read whatever they're
bringing up I'm I have fear thatI don't know how to answer that
question.
When you say that when you sayto yourself I'm just afraid but

(34:58):
nothing's falling apart I'm justafraid your brain starts to uh
understand that as one thing andit's not tying it to everything
else that happened to you beforeit's not tying it to all the
times that you had a disastrousmoment.
Yeah and it's not seeing it asthis huge risk it's just saying
well I I'm not really sure howto move forward you can say and

(35:20):
if you respond and say I haven'tread that but I will read that
and get back to you.
Right.
Right?
Then your logical brain getsback online your emotionals your
emotions are more regulated andyou can continue the meeting
without having lost yourcomposure without having lost
your words and without havinglost like your own self-worth in
in the interim and I thinkthat's a that's a big deal for a

(35:43):
lot of us I mean I've workedwith multiple clients who are
and I see this all the timewhere I've worked with so many
incredibly intelligent smartdriven individuals who are doing
amazing things.
They have the accolades theyhave the experience behind them

(36:05):
but but when I work with themand I say where like what why
are you hesitating on thisinnovation?
Why are you questioning yourselfwhen it comes to this meeting
there was a client that I wasworking with where he would be
fine talking one-on-one ortalking with people uh of his
own I guess what he noticed ashis own status but the minute he

(36:28):
would go into an investorsmeeting he saw everyone as like
much more successful and theyknow so much more they know
different things and they'rethey have so much money and he
would shut down immediately andthat's something that we had to
work through because it's notthat he didn't know he knew all
of the things he had theinnovation he had the the ideas

(36:49):
and the and the um even that hiscompany would be a great
candidate for investments but hebecause he shut down and he
didn't know how to present itthe right way he was losing out
on a lot of opportunities andthen he would go home and like
you know be depressed for twoweeks after one meeting and this
happened over and over again.

(37:09):
Right.
And it had nothing to do withhis own self-worth it just had
to do with what wiring is thatbeing triggered.
For him he grew up he grew up ina home where like he was the
middle child he didn't reallyhave a lot of say they didn't he
he didn't have opportunity tospeak up all that much.
Yeah.
Because his his parents and hisolder sibling were very

(37:30):
successful he always felt lessthan or like he saw someone
older than him as someone whoknew more when in fact they're
just older in age and not wisdomreally right um yeah yeah it's
so wild how like any adultbehavior you can track back to
some type of childhood trauma orreinforcement.

SPEAKER_00 (37:51):
So if anybody that's not doing therapy yet, this is
your call you got to go back yougot to look at the habits
because like you said earlierlike our brain is hardwired to
shortcut right it has tomaintain efficiency because it's
managing and running a wholebody we only know we only use
like one percent of our brainand I only think we know a
fraction of what that 1% doesright.
And so I do think that there'sso much that we don't

(38:14):
acknowledge about our ownchildhood patterns and upgrading
bringings.
And this is why I really lovethings like the Enneagram um
because it's all aboutunderstanding like your shadow
self, your deeper coremotivations, things like that,
so that you can be aware ofthose because what we're talking
about here with emotionalregulation is nervous system
regulation too, right?
You know, it's and you said itwith W, it's you know witnessing

(38:35):
an awareness of not just thethreats um and the triggers but
then also saying okay like namethe feeling when somebody asks
you a question and you feelattacked, like don't like it's
not an that's something worthnoticing.
And once you notice it for me Iwas kind of taking some notes as

(38:56):
you were talking because youmade some really good points to
just kind of bring it home tofolks that are listening.
You know, I think in in ways Ihave found to help reduce that
threat is that you know itsucks, but it's like letting go
of control in the sense of whatdo I have control of and what do
I not have control of andthere's something freeing about
that when you're like yeah thisis out of my control.

(39:18):
I can let it go.
It's a hard thing to say thefirst time somebody told that to
me like you can't worry aboutthe things you can't control I
wanted to smack them in theface.
I was like how dare you how dareyou tell me what I can and can't
worry about but the the mentalexhaustion the mental load that
we talk about as women we'vebrought upon ourselves in a lot
of ways.

(39:38):
Nobody's asking us to do thatbut we will absolutely take it
upon ourselves.
So I usually for me it's lettinggo of control.
Your example in the workplacethat was such a good one letting
go of being right I mean I youknow that's wisdom is knowing
that you don't know everythingright and being okay with that
and I'll often throw out thephrase of getting curious not

(40:00):
furious you know it's just likehow can I not get mad about the
fact that I wasn't right aboutsomething and just get curious
and learn something from it.
And also I don't know is alsoanother freeing statement.
I don't know that but I wouldlove to find out thanks for
bringing that up you know andsure there's some assholes out
here they're gonna be liketrying to poke holes in
everything you do but that haseverything to do with them and

(40:22):
nothing to do with you.
And so I think letting go ofcontrol, letting go of being
right and my final one wasletting go of outcome.
I definitely tend to fall intothe camp of catastrophizing
sometimes I get on that futuretrain and I'm like driving down
the road like you were riding upthe or you were kind of
narrating that scenario of themeeting and I could feel my

(40:42):
nervous system respondingbecause I've sat in those
meetings where I'm like I gotcaught in something I didn't
answer it right or I didn't saythe exact right thing.
But at the end of the day if ifyou've done the work and you've
done the prep to the best ofyour abilities what will be will
be you have to let go of theoutcome and just let it be what
it is and learn from it.

(41:02):
And to me that just like as soonas I start to tell those things
to like you were saying, talkingto yourself, you'll start to
feel it in your body.
You'll go from being like thisshoulders up by your ears
wearing your shoulders asearrings to like oh yeah I can't
control the outcome of this yeahI can't always be right about
everything.
And that's okay.

SPEAKER_03 (41:21):
You know it's so freeing it really is it really
is I think women in leadershipwe do have a lot of these on our
shoulders all the time.
Yeah um and it's because we'reconstantly questioned about what
we know and what we are able todo and what we bring to the
table.
So we improve ourselves like 10times more.

(41:43):
Yes exactly exactly and you youknow I had read the story where
there were these there were twopeople applying for the same job
one was um a woman who had uhthe the the educational
background the life experiencethe work experience and then the
second candidate was um a manthat had half of her experience

(42:05):
had the education she wasquestioning herself to say I
don't know I don't knoweverything that this is listing
I'm not really sure if I'm acandidate for it and 90% of the
time would not apply.
Yep whereas her male counterparthaving not known that having not
known enough said no I'm gonnagive it a shot anyway right and

(42:25):
so just and and it's because Ithink I think it has a lot to do
with how we are as women as wellI mean like I believe men and
women are complementary and thatwe bring different things to the
table.
Yeah and we are builtdifferently and so we have

(42:46):
powers that men can'tnecessarily have yeah right off
the bat.
They may have to like you knowuh work on those skills but
there are things that we do aswomen which um and a lot of it
has to do with like emotionalunderstanding emotional
regulation uh just understandingthe the energy of a group and

(43:09):
I've had this discussion withlike my husband a lot of the
times where we'll go to the sameparty we'll talk to the same
people standing side by sidesame couples whatever and I'll
walk away like oh my God thatwas insane I can't believe we
went to this party like did youbecause I'm feeling something
totally different and he's righthe's standing right alongside me

(43:30):
he hasn't seen anythingdifferently than I have he
hasn't heard anythingdifferently than I have right he
goes what do you mean I thoughtit was totally fine I'm like no
you don't understand did you askdid you hear the way these
questions were being asked likethere are things that we pick up
if you're paying attention ifyou're being mindful that
majority of the people you knowsometimes other people don't

(43:52):
pick up right like my husbandwouldn't pick those up and so
he's totally fine where I'm likeoh my god that woman is about to
like beat my head in because Orsomething like that, right?
Um, so it's important to kind oflike understand where it comes
from, but it also is importantto understand that um, you know,

(44:12):
like when we talk about therapy,there are a lot of things that
each of us has have gonethrough.

SPEAKER_01 (44:18):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (44:18):
Each of us is we have gone through a roller
coaster of things since we werelittle until adulthood.
And so none of us have like madeit out unscarred, is what I'm
trying to say, right?
Yeah, absolutely.
Um but if you understand w whereit is that certain things are
being wired, why where are youholding on to past experiences

(44:40):
too long where it's affectingyou today?
If you just understand that likebasic part of it, I think even
therapy, it doesn't take long.
Like, in fact, I believe therapyshould not be taking like years
for you to like you know, uhsolve an issue or to have some
kind of positive outcome withwhat you've been doing.

(45:03):
Um, a lot of it is likeself-reflection and
understanding where that comesfrom.
For myself, it has helped a lot,quite a bit.
Um and for you know, theclinicians that I've uh I have
worked alongside, I've seenthat.
But more importantly, for thepatients that I've seen along
that I've seen and and workedalongside, I've seen that in

(45:24):
them as well.
So it's um it's never too lateto change your wiring.
You could you you'll and and thethe reason why I say that is
I've seen it done in people whoare in their 70s and 80s in my
workplace and they've changedtheir own lives.

SPEAKER_01 (45:40):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (45:41):
And I've also seen how much it can change you
health-wise.
Oh, absolutely.
Right?
So I've seen, you know, peoplein in our in our facilities
where they were in their 60scoming in with, you know, 15
different medications.
But when we start to walk themthrough certain things, they

(46:02):
start to feel better physically,they start to feel better
emotionally, mentally, to thepoint where they are they don't
need all of these medicationsanymore because now they know
how to do that for themselves.

SPEAKER_00 (46:13):
Yep.

SPEAKER_03 (46:14):
And the body is an incredible, incredible thing.
Yeah.
Incredible.

SPEAKER_00 (46:19):
I agree.
Yeah, the body keeps the score.
I feel like a lot of people citethat book and that research and
that work, and it's absolutelytrue.
Um, you know, we often thinkthat, you know, it's it's all
physiological.
It has to do with somethinglike, oh, I need more vitamins
or I need more this or any more.
You never know.
It could be absolutely emotionaltrauma, uh stored trauma in the
body, stored emotions in thebody.

(46:40):
Like I think the more, the moreresearch that's out there,
especially with like autoimmuneand inflammation research, like
there's just so much in andaround that and what it's truly
doing to, you know, what ourmind has the ability to do to
our bodies, you know?
Yeah.
Um so fascinating.
That could be like a wholenother conversation in rabbit
hole, though.
Um, we're getting close to time,so I'm gonna keep moving on the
questions.

(47:01):
I want to skip down to the whereyou talk about and emphasize
systems, the creating systemsthat helped to make change
inevitable rather than justrelying on willpower alone.
How do we design those systems,especially in unexpected times,
places, lives?

SPEAKER_03 (47:17):
Oh, when things are moving as fast as they are, yes.
Yeah.
Okay.
So uh with leaders, I wouldsuggest that if they're taking
on changes in their in theirworkplace and their cult
workplace culture in theircompanies, especially when it
has to do with AI, this is againseen as uh a change.
So your your brain will see itas a threat.

(47:38):
It'll see it as a risk.
So when you start off by introwhen you're introducing these
changes as saying, well, this iswhat we're we're thinking of
implementing, we've done all theresearch.
Yes, it seems scary.
It's very different.
I haven't gone through thiseither, so I'm gonna be walking
right along with you.
Then everyone will look at youand say, Well, I trust this
leader because he knows exactlywhat we're going through, right?

(47:59):
And it's not easy for us, it'snot gonna be easy for him.
He's not gonna roll it outthinking we should know it uh
from the get-go, from like aweek in, we should be experts in
whatever it is they're rollingout.
I think that makes a hugedifference in the workplace
culture when you start to dothat.
Um it comes to your own habits,again, we need to realize that

(48:21):
anything that we do, how yourespond to something or someone
or any situation, these arethings that your brain has
predicted from the past.
So if you want to have adifferent response, let's say
when you're asked a question,instead of you getting angry at
the person asking the questionor becoming uh feeling like
you're attacked, act like you'recurious, right?

(48:44):
Change that a little bit of thatand act like uh like see it in a
from a vision of curiosityrather than an attack.
And that already changes yourpathway by just a little bit to
say we're not going to be angry.
This is how we're gonna respondfrom now on, and do that for
every question that you getasked.
And that slowly becomes your newnorm.

(49:05):
That becomes the new path thatyou're walking down, up and
down, and your brain will startto see it in the same way where,
well, every time I was asked aquestion and I leaned in with
curiosity, I survived.
I was fine.
I was able to like think clearlyand I was able to respond back.
And the more you do it, the moreyour response will be that much
more clear and more aligned withwhat you're thinking and what
you're feeling instead of justthinking, I'm being attacked

(49:28):
now, right?

SPEAKER_00 (49:28):
I love that advice.
I love it.
It reminds me of uh being out onthe road the other day.
I try to remind this when I'mout driving.
But people lately, collie, it'sjust one of those things where
somebody like cuts you off andyou get so mad and you take it
to such a personal front.
And my daughter's like, well,mom, what if they're in a like
heading towards an emergency orsomething?
And it's always one of thosethings where it's like, don't
get go don't get furious, getcurious, you know?

(49:49):
And it's not to allow certainbehaviors, but it's just to
acknowledge, again, thatoftentimes when people are
behaving out a certain way, it'slike, especially when it's like
people poking holes into things.
To me, I have found it's justthat it's not that they feel
super secure and like they knowit all, they actually feel
insecure and they want to provethemselves and that they know

(50:10):
what they're doing and sayingby, you know, basically poking
holes in yours.
So it's like, you know, again,that whole of don't get curious
or don't get furious, getcurious, I think comes into play
in so many ways.

SPEAKER_03 (50:20):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
For sure, for sure.
I think there was um for myselfpersonally, there was a an
incident where anythingprofessionally related,
work-related that I would talkabout with a colleague, a
particular colleague.
Um I I never got this sense oflike that they were happy for me
in any way.

(50:40):
Anything that I was goingthrough, anything that I was um
presenting.
And in the beginning, it made mereally angry.
I was like, what the what thehell?
Like I've worked so hard to getto where I am.
And if you had put in the work,you would have done the same
thing.
Like I'm not I'm not competingwith anyone else, I'm doing this
for myself, right?
Yeah, and it would make me veryangry.

(51:01):
And then I got to the pointwhere I thought, okay, this has
nothing to do with me, it hasmore to do with them.
Um but I just asked, like, whatwhat makes you ask that
question?

SPEAKER_01 (51:13):
Right?

SPEAKER_03 (51:14):
Yeah.
Oh, you're asking me where mywhat my sources are.
What makes you ask thatquestion?
Do you do you think it's notenough, you know?
And then you have them kind ofexplain themselves and you put
the highlight back on them ifyou feel that way, um, so that
you don't feel attacked.
And you majority of the time,unfortunately, they're gonna
start to squirm because thatquestion, if it comes out of a

(51:36):
genuine curiosity, then theywill answer that way.
But when you start to see themsquirm is when it's like not
meant to be that way, or it itcame from a bad place from their
own insecurity.
So that it's a nice way to likekind of decipher the two.

SPEAKER_00 (51:50):
Yeah, yeah.
I love that too.
And I think I've I've said thata lot too, that could and I've
heard it echoed back to me oflike comparison is the thief of
joy.
You know, I think that's anotherway we burn ourselves out, is we
constantly compare ourselves toother people, and we just see
the surface of success.
We don't actually see what ittook to get there.
Um, and then also like nobody'spath to success looks the same.
We all are facing a number ofdifferent barriers.

(52:11):
Um, and that's another thingtoo.
I I was at a bar with this guylike that I just happened to
meet within a group setting, andhe was such a jerk, and he was
all like, I have a three milliondollar company, and uh blah blah
blah.
Like if women just startedcompeting more, like they could
do just as well as men, becauseI told him what I did for a
living, so he felt the need toschool me on how we don't need
women's networks andorganizations.

(52:31):
I was like, listen.
Yeah, I was like, listen, I waslike, we are not running the
same race, and my finish line isnot your finish line.
Like, my goal is to not, Idon't, I don't need a three
million dollar company.
I don't want a three milliondollar company, I don't want a
yacht and boats and fancy cars.
Like that's not success to me.
I said, We're not, you're you'reasking me to compete with you,
and we're not even on the sameplaying field.

(52:52):
So don't worry.
I'm not looking to compete withyou.
I don't want your job, I don'twant your cars, I don't want
your business, and I don't evenwant you talking to me.
He was like, he was like, he wastaken aback and he was like, I
like you.
You're sassy.
And I was like, okay, that'swhat you call women that
outsmart you is sassy.
Got it.
Have a nice night.

SPEAKER_03 (53:11):
Ace to your face, they'll call you sassy, but you
know, right.
And then he turns around theother guys and tells them what
he thinks of me.

SPEAKER_00 (53:20):
But it is one of those things where I as soon,
again, all these things thatlately, and it's been the
culmination of a lot of struggleand strife of over the last, you
know, five of six years,personal, professional, you
know, changes.
It's like these are hard-earnedlessons.
Like, I'm not just saying thesethings as quips because they
sound pithy.
It's literally stuff that hassmacked me around in the face.
And with chaos came all thatclarity and the ability to say,

(53:42):
yeah, I've had the experience.
This is what's happened, andthis is what I've been able to
learn from it.
And I think to everything, tothe credit of what you're
saying, you know, that exampleof a leader standing in front of
that's what vulnerability andleadership looks like.
It builds and establishes trustand credibility, not because you
know it all, it's because you'rewilling to show that like this
is stuff I've learned and it'snot been easy.
And but I'm willing to sharewhat I've learned openly and

(54:05):
honestly in a way that's genuineand hopefully relatable.
Because at the end of the day,we're all just humans.
Like, that's the thing, too.
I don't get nervous aboutcertain people on certain
levels.
Like, I see we're all we're allhuman, we're all just trying to
get by.
And I think sometimes when wecompare ourselves or we we kind
of put our own selves on acertain level, we're we're doing

(54:26):
others a disservice and we'redoing ourselves a disservice.
Um, so I think that can go along way in sort of how you uh
show up as a leader, how youinfluence, and how you regulate,
you know?

SPEAKER_03 (54:39):
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
To be a great leader doesn'tmean you stand in the front of
the room and you talk at people,right?
You stand in front of the roomand you guide people and you
walk along with them, and thatgives more trust to the person
you're working with thananything else.
Uh I think that's important.
Yes, be be an example, but alsoteach along the way.

(55:01):
Don't just stand there and say,you have to be like me all the
time, right?
None of us have all the answers.
Yes.

SPEAKER_00 (55:09):
Well, and even what you were saying earlier about
changing habits and things likethat, oftentimes it's like,
here's my framework, here's howI do it, here's the thing you
need to do for the next 50 daysin order to be successful and
ripped like me.
It's like, but if you're wireddifferently, you're not going to
have the same results.
So yeah, I want to jump over tosome of our um our uh our um

(55:31):
kind of like power roundquestions, our like rapid fire
ones at the end, because there'ssome good questions here.
And I think we've covered a lotof the good ground on the
questions I had from earlier.
Um, and this kind of gets to youand like your wisdom and your
expertise as an individual.
What is the first thing you doto self-regulate when you feel
overwhelmed?

SPEAKER_03 (55:49):
Uh I I practice what I preach, right?
So I just name what it is thatI'm feeling.
If I'm overwhelmed, there's toomany things happening and I'm
feeling out of sorts, I'll say,Well, just take a deep breath.
I'm overwhelmed.
I'm doing too many things.
I've scheduled too many thingsin the day.
If I um I'm feeling exhaustedand that comes out as anger

(56:12):
because everything's, you know,I'm like people are cutting me
off in traffic, for example.
I'm getting the wrong coffee atthe coffee shop.
Anything.
Like I have no milk for coffeein the morning.
Instead of getting angry, I'llsay, Where how did I get here?
Uh well, because I didn't sleep.
I had really, you know, I sleptlate and I woke up too early and
I haven't had enough sleep, andso I'm not functioning the way I
normally do.

(56:32):
So the first thing I do is I tryto name it for myself.
Like, I love it.
What am I feeling?
The minute you get that, that'slike the the root of the issue,
and then you know what to dowith it.

SPEAKER_00 (56:42):
Yeah.
And to your point too, right?
They say that anger is asecondary emotion.
And so there's always somethingunderneath the anger, right?
And I learned this with my sonwhen he was like three years
old.
He was having a temper tantrum,and there was nothing I could
say or do to make him calm down.
So I finally just said, okay,I'm gonna put you in your room
where you're safe.
You just get it all out, andwhen you're ready to talk, I
will come and talk.
And I came in, I said, Are youready to talk?

(57:04):
He's like, Yes.
I said, What is going on, dude?
He's like, Why do you get mad atme when I'm sad?
Oh, sad.
Well, honey, I'm not mad at youfor being sad.
I'm mad at you for being mad andthrowing things and saying
things that you don't mean.
And I thought you were justangry.
He was sad.
That was like a huge moment.

(57:25):
I was like, okay, got it.
Especially men, right?
That's like the only emotionthey're allowed to show is
anger, right?

SPEAKER_02 (57:32):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (57:33):
Um so yeah, I love that.
It's so good.
Excuse me, sorry.
All right, uh, we talked alittle bit about leadership, a
lot about leadership andinfluence.
Um, so I wanted you to finishthis sentence for me.

SPEAKER_03 (57:43):
Real influence looks like real influence looks like
uh when you give another personenough space to disagree with
you and to still be okay withit.
That's influence.
I love that.
Yeah, influence is not I'm gonnafollow you and exactly what you
tell me to do.
I'm gonna do, I'm gonna be okaywith disagreeing and have my own

(58:04):
opinion, but I still want to beokay with that.
And then it it opens both sidesup to interacting more, to
understanding thingsdifferently, to see it from a
different perspective instead ofum instead of being antagonistic
in any way.
Yes.

SPEAKER_00 (58:21):
We need so much more of that right there.
All right.
Next one is what is oneproductivity myth that makes you
want to scream?

SPEAKER_03 (58:32):
That uh discipline is the answer to everything.
That one.
Um discipline cannot override anervous system that always feels
like it's under threat.
So if you don't address the rootof the problem, no matter how
much discipline you have, it'snot going to become like a habit

(58:52):
that you'll follow.

SPEAKER_00 (58:55):
Yeah, that's one hell of a soundbite right there.
That's a good one.
Rewind it.
Listen to it again, ladies andgents.
All right, last question, andthen we'll wrap it up.
What is the best piece of adviceyou've been given that you'd
give to a woman leader who feelslike she's doing it all wrong?

SPEAKER_03 (59:14):
Um, you you're not doing it wrong.
That you it's not a characterflaw, it's just biology.
You have to understand wherethat inner voice is coming from,
what whatever you're hearing,whatever you're feeling about
yourself, where is that comingfrom?
Is that old wiring?

(59:35):
Is that based on something thathappened recently?
Is that something that happenedto you when you were like five
and you've just carried itthrough all these years without
knowing?
Um, if you understand wherethat's coming from, then you
will understand what to do withit.
And if it's old wiring, we needto redo that.
If it's new wiring, then we needto address the actual issue.

SPEAKER_00 (59:57):
I love it.
Thank you so much, Dr.
Sakia.
This is great.
That's like that last bit rightthere, too, those last few
minutes.
That's that's some powerful,powerful stuff.
Thank you so much for helping usremember that our humanity, not
our hustle, is our greatestleadership asset.
Um, to everyone that'slistening, um, if you're looking
for more authenticcommunications, connections, to

(01:00:18):
be able to lead with clarity, tocreate sustainable change in
your work in life, um, these arethe kinds of conversations we
love to have around here.
So if you're interested in moreof this, um, check out Together
Digital.
Um, our website isTogetherindigital.com.
You know, but nonetheless,regardless of all of that, you
know, listen to this again andagain.
You need these reminders.
It's been so wonderful.

(01:00:38):
Thank you so much for bringingall of this to us and um for
helping us understand like theneuroscience behind, you know,
what makes for good leadership.
And definitely share this with awith someone who you know needs
it, because there's a lot of uswho do.
Um, excited to have you herewith us today.
Thank you so much for beinghere.

SPEAKER_03 (01:00:56):
Thank you so much for having me.
This was a wonderfulconversation.
And I don't see this assomething that I do, I see this
as something that I'm that's thepurpose of me being here.
Is this a wisdom that I'velearned, and I would want to I
want to help everyone out thereunderstand this to understand
themselves better.
So thank you for giving me theplatform and the opportunity.

SPEAKER_00 (01:01:15):
Absolutely.
What's one way um people can geta hold of you if they want to
continue the conversation?

SPEAKER_03 (01:01:20):
I'm on LinkedIn under my name, Zakia Gafari, and
I'm on Instagram at the handleDr.ZakiaSpeaks, and I'd love to
hear from you.

SPEAKER_00 (01:01:32):
Wonderful.
Thank you so much.
I appreciate you being here.
All right, everyone, that's allwe got for you this week.
We will hopefully see you soon.
Until then, keep asking, keepgiving, and keep growing.

SPEAKER_02 (01:01:50):
Produced by Heartcast Media.