March 25, 2026 • 29 mins
n this episode of Why Not Me, host Tony Mantor, broadcasting from Nashville, Tennessee, delves into the mental health challenges faced by first responders and veterans.
Featuring Dr. Jean Cillo, a clinical and forensic psychologist, and retired Lieutenant Tom Antonette from the NYPD, the discussion explores the PTP (Post Tour Processing) program, a pioneering mental health support initiative designed by law enforcement for law enforcement, now expanded to all first responders.
The episode emphasizes the importance of providing a safe space for first responders to process trauma, the critical role of peer support, and the continuous efforts to ensure mental well-being in highly stressful jobs. Both guests shed light on the nuanced experiences of police officers, EMTs, and other first responders, underscoring the necessity for accessible mental health resources and the shift in cultural attitudes towards seeking help.
First Responders and Mental Health
Introducing Dr. Jean Cillo and Lt. Tom Antonette
Understanding Trauma in First Responders
Coping Mechanisms and Dark Humor
The Role of Post-Tour Processing
Tom Antonetti's Background and Insights
Challenges and Support for Retired Officers
Final Thoughts and Resources
Closing Remarks and Call to Action
INTRO/OUTRO: T. Wild
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The content on Why Not Me: Embracing Autism amd Mental Health Worldwide, including discussions on mental health, autism, and related topics, is provided for informational and entertainment purposes only.
The views and opinions expressed by guests are their own and do not reflect those of the podcast, its hosts, or affiliates.
Why Not Me is not a medical or mental health professional and does not endorse or verify the accuracy, efficacy, safety of any treatments, programs, or advice discussed.
Listeners should consult qualified healthcare professionals, such as licensed therapists, psychologists, or physicians, before making decisions about mental health or autism- related care.
Reliance on this podcast's contents is at the listener's own risk.
Why Not Me is not liable for any outcomes, financial or otherwise, resulting from actions taken based on the information provided.
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intro/outro music bed written by T. Wild
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_01 (00:06):
Welcome to Why Not Me, Embracing Autism and Mental
Health Worldwide.
Hosted by Tony Mirator.
Broadcasting from the heart ofMusic City, USA, Nashville,
Tennessee.
Join us as our guests sharetheir raw, powerful stories.
Some will spark laughter, otherswill move you to tears.
(00:30):
These real life journeysinspire, connect, and remind you
that you're never alone.
We're igniting a global movementto empower everyone to make a
lasting difference by fosteringdeep awareness, unwavering
acceptance, and profoundunderstanding of autism and
(00:52):
mental health.
Tune in, be inspired, and joinus in transforming the world one
story at a time.
Hi, I'm Tony Mantor.
Welcome to Why Not Me, EmbracingAutism and Mental Health
Worldwide.
First responders and veteransoften witness more trauma in a
(01:12):
single shift than most peoplewill face in a lifetime.
Over time, that weight cancompound.
Too many suffer in silence,afraid that asking for help
could cost them their career ortheir identity.
Today, we are joined by Dr.
Gene Sorillo, a renownedclinical and forensic
psychologist and retiredLieutenant Tom Antonetti to talk
(01:35):
about PTP, Talk2Me Post Tour, afirst of its kind mental health
support program built by lawenforcement for law enforcement
and now expanded to supportveterans and all first
responders.
This is a powerful conversationabout trauma, trust, and why no
one who serves should ever haveto carry it alone.
(01:56):
So before we dive into ourepisode, we'll be back with an
uninterrupted show right after aword from our sponsors.
Thanks for joining us today.
SPEAKER_00 (02:05):
Thank you.
I appreciate your invitation.
SPEAKER_01 (02:08):
Oh, it's my pleasure.
If you would give us a littleinformation on what it is that
you do.
SPEAKER_00 (02:14):
Okay, I'm a psychologist.
I've been a practicingpsychologist on Long Island for
about 35 years.
I'm also an attorney.
That's been for about six years.
So I love to do things likefamily therapy, custody issues,
uh post-traumatic stressdisorder, as with the postal
(02:36):
processing for police andmilitary, and anybody, EMTs, who
has a stressful job that theydon't get to process.
The crisis is not over afterthey leave work.
Sometimes it's just beginningwhen they go home and take it
home with them.
That's what we seek to prevent.
SPEAKER_01 (02:55):
Can you give us an insight to some of the
scenarios?
I mean, you just brought up somevery interesting facts.
I think a lot of people realizethis, but they don't realize it
to the extent of what you'reseeing.
Everyone thinks they are madeout of stone, yet here they are
having issues and bringing ithome with them.
SPEAKER_00 (03:15):
Exactly.
And you know, sometimes they actlike they're made out of stone.
They use dark humor in order tocope with a very dark situation.
So it's not unusual for whenthey're picking up after a
really nasty crime scene forthem to appear insensitive to a
lay person that doesn'tunderstand that they're joking
(03:36):
about it to keep themselves saneand in the moment and able to do
it.
But there has to be a regulatedcrashing time, which is what
post-talk processing is about,to prevent them from taking it
out on their wives, kids, or thebottle or drugs or any means
that they think will provideshort-term relief.
SPEAKER_01 (03:56):
That makes perfect sense.
I see Tom just joined us.
SPEAKER_00 (03:59):
Hi, Tom.
SPEAKER_01 (04:00):
Hi, good afternoon.
Thanks for joining us today.
Oh, my pleasure.
Thanks for having me.
Oh, it's my pleasure.
If you would give our listenersa little information on what it
is that you do.
SPEAKER_02 (04:11):
Well, I've uh retired.
I've retired from the New YorkCity Police Department.
I retired in the rank of uhlieutenant, and I spent the last
13 years of my time there in thepress office as a spokesperson
for the department.
Prior to that, I worked variousunits on patrol in both
Manhattan and Brooklyn.
In Manhattan, I worked inMidtown, the Midtown South
(04:33):
Precinct, and in Brooklyn, inthe East New York section in the
75th precinct.
SPEAKER_01 (04:37):
Okay, so how did you and Dr.
Cirillo connect?
SPEAKER_02 (04:40):
Oh, we connected through a uh mutual friend, a
mutual acquaintance who put usboth in contact with each other,
had conversation obviously priorto today, and from there decided
to go forward in speakingfurther on the topic and current
matters, or excuse me, uhrelatable matters of this topic
and related topics, lawenforcement, also first
(05:03):
responder generally speaking,and the effects, both current
and after effects.
SPEAKER_01 (05:10):
That's a huge subject when you start talking
about the mental well-being ofthe first responders.
Now, this next question is foreither one of you.
When they go through thosetraumatic situations, then
afterwards they have to processeverything they've been through.
Everyone thinks it's just thevictim or the victim's family
that has to go through thistrauma.
They don't realize the firstresponders have to process as
(05:33):
well, and then depending uponthe level of the trauma that was
involved, will have everythingto do in the way that the first
responders process this.
So how do you help them getthrough all this?
SPEAKER_00 (05:45):
I know with the EMT people, what they see is the the
first, they're often the firstpeople to arrive, say, at a
horrible car accident wheresomebody's been decapitated.
And they have to get in there.
They have to, first of all, dotriage as to who can be saved
and who can't.
And I know there was somebodywhere there was a shooting in
(06:07):
his house on Thanksgiving.
Seven out of eight people died.
He was the survivor.
And the police, when they ithappened to be the police then,
and then the EMT came, but thepolice would be in there.
They'd say fatal, fatal.
Okay, this guy can be helped.
And you right away decide whocan be helped, how you're gonna
help him in a split second.
So yeah, they have to processthat too.
(06:28):
They can be very calm,collected, and cool because they
know their job.
So they rise to the level oftheir training.
But then later on, after it'sover, they can fall to the level
of their emotions, and that'swhen they need the post toll
processing.
SPEAKER_01 (06:43):
How do you help them get through that?
I mean, that's very traumatic.
It's one thing if it happensonce in a while, but they're
dealing with this pretty much ona daily basis.
So, how do you help them getthrough it?
And how do you help them processit?
SPEAKER_00 (06:57):
It's available anonymously.
They can come on the website,they can sign on with an email,
they can sign on anonymously,they can text, they can show
their face, they can speakwithout showing their face, they
can give their name or not givetheir name.
It's totally up to them.
The anonymity is guaranteed, andthat's so important, especially
(07:22):
for police, because if they'reseen as too traumatized, let's
say they had to use their gun totake somebody down because that
person was threatening aninnocent civilian, then they
still have to process guilt,depression, fear, everything
else.
And they need to process it withtheir peers who understand what
you go through after you justdid something that you wouldn't
(07:45):
normally do in the regularworld, but that you have to do
as an authority figure.
And they can process it eitherway.
And sometimes they don't want toadmit to drinking, fighting with
their wife or anything, orhusband or anything like that,
because they don't want to losetheir gun.
And the police will sometimestake away an officer's gun.
Since a gun is a major tool orone of the major tools, if he or
(08:09):
she doesn't have their gun, theycan't work.
They have to be behind a deskand they don't want to do that.
SPEAKER_01 (08:14):
Right.
Now, Tom, how do you fit intothis whole scenario?
You're retired now, so how areyou incorporating yourself into
helping these people that needthe help?
SPEAKER_02 (08:26):
Well, I can tell you twofold.
First off, I still maintain astrong network and connection
with those that I've workedwith, both those that I've
served, both that have servedunder me since I was in the
supervisory capacity, but alsoin a more splintering effect.
I'm with the fraternal order ofpolice, and in my local area, I
serve on the board and in thecapacity of secretary.
(08:50):
Now, with that, it's not justclinically effective as the
secretary for the fraternalorder police.
There's a great interaction, andin that interaction, there's an
exchange, an exchange of ideas,an exchange of how you're doing,
how the family is.
It's more personal.
It's it's very uh interpersonal.
When we have our meetings, whenwe have our events, you know,
(09:10):
the fraternal order policeobviously looks to help those
within that community, firstresponders, all lines, all
lines.
So I've maintained thatcommunication, that direct
contact with active, retiredmembers of law enforcement, just
seeing how they're doing and noton obviously to the depth or to
(09:32):
the extent that the doctor'sspeaking on and dealing with,
but on this personal, almostcolloquial level where there's
that comfort of, I know, Iunderstand, we're part of the
same quote unquote fraternity.
So in speaking with you, youunderstand what I'm expressing
to you.
You understand the good, thebad, everything in between.
(09:52):
So the opening up, the hearing,and now as we get older, as the
years go by, and their offspringbecome members or become first
respondents, excuse me, orfamily members, friends, you
hear their story.
So now it becomes almostgenerational, and you're getting
a deeper dive into how they'redealing with it on a new level
because things are differenttoday than they were when I had
(10:14):
first started, or from even 10,12, 15 years ago.
So still staying connected,obviously to both active and
retired in those two differentcapacities.
SPEAKER_01 (10:25):
Now, have you seen, and I'm really sure that you
probably have, situations wherepeople fall through the cracks,
then they retire?
How do you find ways to helpthem?
They're still part of thefraternal order.
Yet, even though that's true,they still feel very alone and
by themselves.
How do you get past thatfirewall that they will put up?
(10:49):
So their mental health staysstrong and they don't go down
that deep dark hole that no onewants to see them in.
SPEAKER_02 (10:56):
And it's true, you make a good, unfortunate point
because there are some.
And sometimes, and I don't meanto say anything or to speak
anyway with just a broad brush,it's individual specific.
So you're going to haveindividual remedies, you're
going to have individualconditions, but if I can speak
just by and large with this,sometimes some people will
(11:19):
think, well, you know what?
That's just Joe being Joe.
And he'll get through it, he'llget by.
Or I'll tap him on the shoulderand say, hey, is everything
okay?
Not really invested in what thatanswer would be, but I felt I've
done my part.
Again, rhetorically speaking.
So what is done or what can bedone, what I've seen done is
(11:41):
just the follow-up, just notletting those that you know slip
through the crack.
Unfortunately, there will be anumber that that is the case
that they do slip through thatcrack.
You try to minimize that.
I know that if I, and I hadseen, and I obviously wouldn't
name names or conditions orcircumstances, but I've seen
those that were struggling,active members, and even
(12:02):
retired.
They haven't adjusted to thetrauma that they encountered in
whatever capacity it came, be itsomething they encountered while
on the job, while working,something they encountered in
their personal life, but they'renot right.
They're not right.
Now I don't have that degreethat I can speak to them with
that level of professionalismthat's going to set them on the
right way, but I can still speakto them in that conversational
(12:25):
aspect or in that conversationaltone to get them to where they
need to be, to get them to theprograms that exist or to the
people to speak to further theconversation.
It's not going to start or endwith me, but it can with these
other entities, these otherindividuals, these other
programs that can best servethem.
So to get them there and to say,hey, did you follow up?
(12:46):
Did you call that number I gaveyou?
Did you email the person, thecompany, the entities that I
provided to you to see if theyare in fact doing so?
And then always just to followup with them at irregular
intervals to see, hey, how areyou doing?
I care for your well-being.
SPEAKER_01 (13:01):
Yeah, that's a great thing you're doing for sure.
When some of these people get toa point where they ultimately
need more help than what any ofthe first responders precincts
can do.
What are some of the steps thatyou do as a psychologist to help
them smooth things out andtamper everything down so they
can tolerate and live with allthe emotions that they've been
(13:23):
through?
SPEAKER_00 (13:24):
Sure, we have referral sources.
Most of them have kept theirhealth insurance for New York
City or Long Island or upstateor whatever they have.
So we can refer them to peoplethat are psychologists, social
workers, and sometimespsychiatrists if medication
seems to be needed, that taketheir insurance, that have
(13:47):
worked with many people in theirfield, and they're used to
hearing about a lot of theseproblems, and especially a
retired person will talk more.
They're glad to because theydon't have to worry that
somebody's gonna know they havea mental health record, even if
it's confidential between thetherapist, the insurance
company.
(14:07):
It doesn't go to the employerlike it used to 20 years ago
before HIPAA rules.
But the idea is that it'll beconfidential.
They don't have to worry aboutlosing their gun.
They do take a gun with them ifthey want to do security work or
for their own protection.
But normally that doesn't becomean issue is when they're on
active duty policing.
So, yes, we have plenty ofreferrals to healthcare
(14:30):
professionals, and they alwayshave that option.
Even without coming to us, theycan go directly.
But sometimes when we start torealize, hey, this guy needs a
little bit more, and maybe theirsituation or the precinct was a
lot more traumatic.
Every day you have to remember apolice officer sees more trauma
and horror in one day on the jobthan most people see in a
(14:55):
lifetime.
So, yes, we can refer them on tomental health resources and let
them know that many of theircolleagues use these resources
also, and the therapist issomebody that is used to dealing
with veterans, with police, withEMTs, and people who deal with
very high stress jobs.
SPEAKER_01 (15:12):
Yeah, I can't disagree with you there.
They're very high stress jobsand they do see a lot, a lot
more than the average personsees.
Now, most people they go towork, punch in, they get out of
work, they punch out.
But with your job, it can be a24-hour day job sometimes.
You might be off the clock, butthen you see something happens,
(15:34):
you can't just walk away fromit, and you jump in and try and
help out.
Then it creates another trauma,yet they go back to work like it
never happened.
How do you help them?
Because there are some that arevery good at masking their
feelings and their emotions andwhat they're going through.
Most people would never knowthat they were going through it
(15:55):
because they hide it so well.
How do you sift through that, orcan you sift through that not
knowing, so they don't go downthat deep dark hole that no one
wants to see them go into?
SPEAKER_00 (16:08):
Well, when they come on the website, there's some
knowledge that this isn'tnormal, that they've been
feeling bad lately.
Certainly, other policeofficers, other EMTs know about
the program, they can encourageit.
But a lot of them are taught onthe job, they have to mask their
(16:29):
feelings.
You know, I remember once a copsaying to me, he said, Oh, that
lady was frantic.
The cop was calm.
And the abuser in this case wascalm.
He was an ex-com.
Okay, he got kicked out becausehe was doing things that were
not acceptable and he wasn'tgoing for help.
But anyway, you're taught tokeep calm, not to show how
afraid or how angry or howdepressed you are.
(16:51):
So it's hard to put the maskdown, and that's one of the
aspects of the program.
You're taught this is a placewhere you can let your hair
down, let you take your maskoff.
You know how you shower aftergoing through a dirty
neighborhood or rummagingthrough garbage bins to find a
piece of evidence?
You shower.
You're not ashamed to do that.
That's what the post tollprocessing is.
SPEAKER_01 (17:14):
Yes, that makes perfect sense.
They're taught to mask it.
They're taught to stay calm.
Let's say they do it so well, sowell that most people around
them do not know that they aregoing through some very serious
issues.
Every time they go out, everytime they see something bad,
they're holding it in, and eachpiece of that puzzle is forming
(17:38):
a picture, and that picture isone that's going in a very bad
place.
So, how do you address this soit does not get out of control?
SPEAKER_00 (17:48):
Well, I would say it's situation specific.
What you're really teaching themis the ability to discriminate
among different situations.
When the ambulance pulls up andsomeone's badly hurt, you don't
have time to process feelings.
When you go home and you havesome time to go on the computer,
(18:10):
to go to post-processing, or toeven make a therapy appointment,
that's the proper time.
The therapist's office,post-tour processing, which
again can be anonymous.
So if there's something youwouldn't want to tell a
therapist, you can say it here.
And if you're anonymous, youknow it's not going to be
traced.
Because you can develop acertain paranoia after being in,
(18:32):
especially the police field.
You feel like everybody'slooking out to catch you at
something because you're alwayscatching people.
But there's a proper time andplace.
On the job, no.
Out of the job when you're homeand when you're safe in a safe
environment, the therapist andpostal processing are safe
environments.
SPEAKER_01 (18:52):
Now, Tom, I understand that there's kind of
a continuing education for firstresponders.
Is there one for continuingeducation on how to avoid any
circumstances that could putthem in a bad place with their
mental health?
SPEAKER_02 (19:09):
Well, insofar as certain degrees or programs that
I had taken.
SPEAKER_01 (19:14):
I'm thinking more of internal programs to where they
learn to process it and workwith it so that they don't have
any issues moving forward.
SPEAKER_02 (19:24):
Yes, that's twofold.
Now, there are members of theservice who are designated, who
work in those designated units,who are there 24 hours a day to
answer that call, and they arespecially trained for that.
To take that call, then for thefurtherance.
It could be just as Dr.
Gene had mentioned, to thenbring it to that program, to
(19:47):
that level, but at least to bethe first responder for the
first responders.
So there are speciallydesignated members of the
service who are set aside inthose units to be there for
help, and that's 24 hours a day,seven days a week.
Now, for a supervisor for acoworker, just to bring it down
to the most basic, immediatelevel, for a supervisor for a
(20:10):
coworker, your on the jobtraining is, and you're told
this, you're told this directly,implicitly.
Hey, are you okay?
Colloquially speaking, directlyspeaking, are you okay?
That manifests itself in anumber of ways through humor,
through direct conversation,through taking someone on the
side.
As a supervisor, yes, it was myresponsibility to identify, to
(20:33):
see those signs, verbal andnonverbal cues of is there
something manifesting here?
Is there a problem, potential,or an actuality?
Maybe something at home, maybesomething from a heavy job that
we left, something that is stillbugging this individual, this
officer.
So you try to identify that andyou try to talk with them, get
(20:54):
them to open up.
And a lot of times, as you bothmentioned, they're not willing
to do that.
There's a belief, and I've seenthis, I've seen this thankfully
erode over the years.
Where, again, when I had firstjoined the department, the
belief was you don't have totalk to anyone.
Again, overriding.
I'm speaking in generalitieshere.
You don't have to talk toanyone.
We're here, we'll handle thingswhen we close ranks, we'll
(21:18):
handle things in and ofourselves.
That has dissipated, that beliefhas eroded.
And I have seen that in my overtwo decades with the department,
and now having left it and stillbeing connected in the ways in
which I am, seeing that there isno blemish on your record or how
you're viewed in seeking thehelp that you need.
(21:40):
So there's the direct, thosethat are trained to answer and
respond, and those who are we'reall part of the same
organization, you just knowdon't turn a blind eye.
Don't say he or she will beokay.
Ask the question you do have aresponsibility.
You do have a responsibility.
And you have to act on that.
SPEAKER_01 (22:01):
I think that's great that you have that set up.
Now, you're talking New YorkCity, one of the largest cities
in the world.
You have a very large policeforce.
It's not like some of thesmaller towns or smaller cities
where everyone knows everyone.
How do you maintain that leveland that stability so that no
one falls through the cracks?
SPEAKER_00 (22:22):
Each precinct is like a little society, a
subsociety in itself.
And they do know the peoplewithin the precinct.
They look out for their brothersand their partners and their
friends.
So even though it's a large cityand there's a lot more crime and
a lot more violent crime as inany large city, it's a small
precinct or relatively small.
(22:44):
All right, Hugo, you were gonnasay something.
SPEAKER_02 (22:46):
Just to compound that answer, yes, that's true.
And I I was gonna speak exactlyto that.
You don't look in the totalityof the numbers, the amount, the
amount of um members of theservice and how are they served.
You're right.
Within each command, eachprecinct, each unit, there is
the oversight, there is thewatching over of the personnel
(23:09):
to identify.
So it's in its own respectivesilo that they see where an
issue, a problem, a question mayarise, may occur, and deal with
that.
Then when it has to go up theproverbial chain of command, it
does.
So at least they're able to beserved, at least they're able to
have that sort of guidance orpenning in of those individuals
(23:31):
that would need the services,whatever they may be, within
their own respective precinctunit designated command.
SPEAKER_01 (23:38):
Yeah, that's great.
And the reason why I ask that isbecause a lot of people look at
New York City and they justthink a large police force and
they don't think about smallerprecincts scattered around the
city.
This way they can support eachother, and I think that's a very
important thing for people toknow.
Yes, agreed.
Now, in closing, and I'll startwith you, Dr.
(23:59):
Sorello.
What do you think is importantfor the listeners to hear?
Not only on what you're doing,but how it applies to everything
you're trying to do to help thefirst responders.
SPEAKER_00 (24:12):
Okay, first of all, first and foremost, you don't
interfere with them whilethey're doing their job.
I mean, you you shouldn't haveto say that, but many people,
when it's their loved one thatwas just hurt, or when it's a
family member that did somethingbad, and that's why they called
the police.
You used to see that a lot morenow that there's education about
(24:34):
spouse abuse, but you would seethat in couples where the woman
usually would call the police.
He was threatening to bash myhead in, he broke this in the
house, he hit me.
She had a black eye, a bloodynose, but she doesn't want to
press charges.
And now there are laws tosupport the police officer.
If they suspect a felony's beencommitted, they have to arrest
(24:54):
the person, even if they theother person doesn't want them
arrested.
So you tell them, stay back, letthe police do their job, but you
also have to convince the policenot to use excessive violence
when it is not necessary.
And that's what the post-talkprocessing is about.
We don't want them to take alltheir trauma into one incident,
(25:15):
usually a domestic incidentwhere it's not needed.
SPEAKER_01 (25:17):
Yeah, that's great information.
Now, Tom, what would you like tosay to the listeners so they
understand how you are trying toself-police so that no one gets
hurt and everyone keeps movingforward in a mental state that
is healthy?
SPEAKER_02 (25:33):
I think the overarch with that is this police
officers, first responders, thewhole gamut of first responders,
all of them, all lines, they arepeople.
They are humans just likeeveryone else.
The cashier at the supermarket,sanitation worker, anyone, I
mean, anyone in any walk oflife, they're seen as first
(25:56):
responders.
They're seen as the heroes thatyou God willing, they're seen as
that, that who respond toemergency situations that others
would run away from.
They run towards the danger.
But they're seen, I think, inconversations that I've had over
the years, and doctors, I'm sureyou can endorse this statement
as well.
(26:16):
They're seen clinically, they'rejust seen as they are above the
general feel that you are justlike me.
These are family members, theseare husbands, wives, sons,
daughters.
They are people that they dealwith the same issues
health-wise, monetarilyspeaking, that everyone else
does.
And oftentimes it's not so easyto see them as that.
(26:39):
But in being the same as othersin every walk of life, that also
means that for mental anguish orstress, things that they deal
with, it doesn't just come offthem without any lasting
effects.
That's not true.
If anything, because of theirline of work, these effects are
deeper and longer lasting.
(27:00):
And the way to remedy theseeffects, this massive stress
that many of them deal with,they need this, as doctor had
mentioned, they need theseoutlets, these programs
available to them for them totake advantage of, because this
is where they are not like theothers, the cashier and the
(27:20):
other individuals who Imentioned, because they are
working on that level of dealingwith tremendous emergency
stress, pressure-packedsituations.
And when you're dealing withthat, and that's what you know
in your shift, shift in andshift out, then you need a way
to have that remedied when itgets to the point that you can't
take care of it yourself.
SPEAKER_01 (27:40):
Yeah, I think that's well stated and well said.
Now, can you tell people howthey can find you and a little
more information about yourorganization?
SPEAKER_00 (27:48):
Well, if you go under police officer post tour
processing, it's PTP for short.
PTP, and then put in post-tourprocessing our entire website,
and the names of some of the keystaff members will come up.
SPEAKER_01 (28:06):
Okay, perfect.
Well, this has been great.
Great conversation, greatinformation.
I really appreciate you takingthe time to join us today.
SPEAKER_00 (28:14):
Same here.
Thanks for the invitation.
SPEAKER_01 (28:16):
All right, thanks so much.
Thank you.
Oh, it's been my pleasure.
Thanks again.
Thanks for taking time out ofyour busy schedule to listen to
our show today.
We hope you enjoyed it as muchas we enjoyed bringing it to
you.
If you know someone who has astory to share, tell them to
(28:40):
contact us at why notme.world.
One last thing, spread the wordabout why not me.
Our conversations, our inspiringguest, the show.
You are not alone in this world.
Welcome to Why Not Me, Embracing Autism and Mental
Health Worldwide.
Hosted by Tony Mirator.
Broadcasting from the heart ofMusic City, USA, Nashville,
Tennessee.
Join us as our guests sharetheir raw, powerful stories.
Some will spark laughter, otherswill move you to tears.
(00:30):
These real life journeysinspire, connect, and remind you
that you're never alone.
We're igniting a global movementto empower everyone to make a
lasting difference by fosteringdeep awareness, unwavering
acceptance, and profoundunderstanding of autism and
(00:52):
mental health.
Tune in, be inspired, and joinus in transforming the world one
story at a time.
Hi, I'm Tony Mantor.
Welcome to Why Not Me, EmbracingAutism and Mental Health
Worldwide.
First responders and veteransoften witness more trauma in a
(01:12):
single shift than most peoplewill face in a lifetime.
Over time, that weight cancompound.
Too many suffer in silence,afraid that asking for help
could cost them their career ortheir identity.
Today, we are joined by Dr.
Gene Sorillo, a renownedclinical and forensic
psychologist and retiredLieutenant Tom Antonetti to talk
(01:35):
about PTP, Talk2Me Post Tour, afirst of its kind mental health
support program built by lawenforcement for law enforcement
and now expanded to supportveterans and all first
responders.
This is a powerful conversationabout trauma, trust, and why no
one who serves should ever haveto carry it alone.
(01:56):
So before we dive into ourepisode, we'll be back with an
uninterrupted show right after aword from our sponsors.
Thanks for joining us today.
SPEAKER_00 (02:05):
Thank you.
I appreciate your invitation.
SPEAKER_01 (02:08):
Oh, it's my pleasure.
If you would give us a littleinformation on what it is that
you do.
SPEAKER_00 (02:14):
Okay, I'm a psychologist.
I've been a practicingpsychologist on Long Island for
about 35 years.
I'm also an attorney.
That's been for about six years.
So I love to do things likefamily therapy, custody issues,
uh post-traumatic stressdisorder, as with the postal
(02:36):
processing for police andmilitary, and anybody, EMTs, who
has a stressful job that theydon't get to process.
The crisis is not over afterthey leave work.
Sometimes it's just beginningwhen they go home and take it
home with them.
That's what we seek to prevent.
SPEAKER_01 (02:55):
Can you give us an insight to some of the
scenarios?
I mean, you just brought up somevery interesting facts.
I think a lot of people realizethis, but they don't realize it
to the extent of what you'reseeing.
Everyone thinks they are madeout of stone, yet here they are
having issues and bringing ithome with them.
SPEAKER_00 (03:15):
Exactly.
And you know, sometimes they actlike they're made out of stone.
They use dark humor in order tocope with a very dark situation.
So it's not unusual for whenthey're picking up after a
really nasty crime scene forthem to appear insensitive to a
lay person that doesn'tunderstand that they're joking
(03:36):
about it to keep themselves saneand in the moment and able to do
it.
But there has to be a regulatedcrashing time, which is what
post-talk processing is about,to prevent them from taking it
out on their wives, kids, or thebottle or drugs or any means
that they think will provideshort-term relief.
SPEAKER_01 (03:56):
That makes perfect sense.
I see Tom just joined us.
SPEAKER_00 (03:59):
Hi, Tom.
SPEAKER_01 (04:00):
Hi, good afternoon.
Thanks for joining us today.
Oh, my pleasure.
Thanks for having me.
Oh, it's my pleasure.
If you would give our listenersa little information on what it
is that you do.
SPEAKER_02 (04:11):
Well, I've uh retired.
I've retired from the New YorkCity Police Department.
I retired in the rank of uhlieutenant, and I spent the last
13 years of my time there in thepress office as a spokesperson
for the department.
Prior to that, I worked variousunits on patrol in both
Manhattan and Brooklyn.
In Manhattan, I worked inMidtown, the Midtown South
(04:33):
Precinct, and in Brooklyn, inthe East New York section in the
75th precinct.
SPEAKER_01 (04:37):
Okay, so how did you and Dr.
Cirillo connect?
SPEAKER_02 (04:40):
Oh, we connected through a uh mutual friend, a
mutual acquaintance who put usboth in contact with each other,
had conversation obviously priorto today, and from there decided
to go forward in speakingfurther on the topic and current
matters, or excuse me, uhrelatable matters of this topic
and related topics, lawenforcement, also first
(05:03):
responder generally speaking,and the effects, both current
and after effects.
SPEAKER_01 (05:10):
That's a huge subject when you start talking
about the mental well-being ofthe first responders.
Now, this next question is foreither one of you.
When they go through thosetraumatic situations, then
afterwards they have to processeverything they've been through.
Everyone thinks it's just thevictim or the victim's family
that has to go through thistrauma.
They don't realize the firstresponders have to process as
(05:33):
well, and then depending uponthe level of the trauma that was
involved, will have everythingto do in the way that the first
responders process this.
So how do you help them getthrough all this?
SPEAKER_00 (05:45):
I know with the EMT people, what they see is the the
first, they're often the firstpeople to arrive, say, at a
horrible car accident wheresomebody's been decapitated.
And they have to get in there.
They have to, first of all, dotriage as to who can be saved
and who can't.
And I know there was somebodywhere there was a shooting in
(06:07):
his house on Thanksgiving.
Seven out of eight people died.
He was the survivor.
And the police, when they ithappened to be the police then,
and then the EMT came, but thepolice would be in there.
They'd say fatal, fatal.
Okay, this guy can be helped.
And you right away decide whocan be helped, how you're gonna
help him in a split second.
So yeah, they have to processthat too.
(06:28):
They can be very calm,collected, and cool because they
know their job.
So they rise to the level oftheir training.
But then later on, after it'sover, they can fall to the level
of their emotions, and that'swhen they need the post toll
processing.
SPEAKER_01 (06:43):
How do you help them get through that?
I mean, that's very traumatic.
It's one thing if it happensonce in a while, but they're
dealing with this pretty much ona daily basis.
So, how do you help them getthrough it?
And how do you help them processit?
SPEAKER_00 (06:57):
It's available anonymously.
They can come on the website,they can sign on with an email,
they can sign on anonymously,they can text, they can show
their face, they can speakwithout showing their face, they
can give their name or not givetheir name.
It's totally up to them.
The anonymity is guaranteed, andthat's so important, especially
(07:22):
for police, because if they'reseen as too traumatized, let's
say they had to use their gun totake somebody down because that
person was threatening aninnocent civilian, then they
still have to process guilt,depression, fear, everything
else.
And they need to process it withtheir peers who understand what
you go through after you justdid something that you wouldn't
(07:45):
normally do in the regularworld, but that you have to do
as an authority figure.
And they can process it eitherway.
And sometimes they don't want toadmit to drinking, fighting with
their wife or anything, orhusband or anything like that,
because they don't want to losetheir gun.
And the police will sometimestake away an officer's gun.
Since a gun is a major tool orone of the major tools, if he or
(08:09):
she doesn't have their gun, theycan't work.
They have to be behind a deskand they don't want to do that.
SPEAKER_01 (08:14):
Right.
Now, Tom, how do you fit intothis whole scenario?
You're retired now, so how areyou incorporating yourself into
helping these people that needthe help?
SPEAKER_02 (08:26):
Well, I can tell you twofold.
First off, I still maintain astrong network and connection
with those that I've workedwith, both those that I've
served, both that have servedunder me since I was in the
supervisory capacity, but alsoin a more splintering effect.
I'm with the fraternal order ofpolice, and in my local area, I
serve on the board and in thecapacity of secretary.
(08:50):
Now, with that, it's not justclinically effective as the
secretary for the fraternalorder police.
There's a great interaction, andin that interaction, there's an
exchange, an exchange of ideas,an exchange of how you're doing,
how the family is.
It's more personal.
It's it's very uh interpersonal.
When we have our meetings, whenwe have our events, you know,
(09:10):
the fraternal order policeobviously looks to help those
within that community, firstresponders, all lines, all
lines.
So I've maintained thatcommunication, that direct
contact with active, retiredmembers of law enforcement, just
seeing how they're doing and noton obviously to the depth or to
(09:32):
the extent that the doctor'sspeaking on and dealing with,
but on this personal, almostcolloquial level where there's
that comfort of, I know, Iunderstand, we're part of the
same quote unquote fraternity.
So in speaking with you, youunderstand what I'm expressing
to you.
You understand the good, thebad, everything in between.
(09:52):
So the opening up, the hearing,and now as we get older, as the
years go by, and their offspringbecome members or become first
respondents, excuse me, orfamily members, friends, you
hear their story.
So now it becomes almostgenerational, and you're getting
a deeper dive into how they'redealing with it on a new level
because things are differenttoday than they were when I had
(10:14):
first started, or from even 10,12, 15 years ago.
So still staying connected,obviously to both active and
retired in those two differentcapacities.
SPEAKER_01 (10:25):
Now, have you seen, and I'm really sure that you
probably have, situations wherepeople fall through the cracks,
then they retire?
How do you find ways to helpthem?
They're still part of thefraternal order.
Yet, even though that's true,they still feel very alone and
by themselves.
How do you get past thatfirewall that they will put up?
(10:49):
So their mental health staysstrong and they don't go down
that deep dark hole that no onewants to see them in.
SPEAKER_02 (10:56):
And it's true, you make a good, unfortunate point
because there are some.
And sometimes, and I don't meanto say anything or to speak
anyway with just a broad brush,it's individual specific.
So you're going to haveindividual remedies, you're
going to have individualconditions, but if I can speak
just by and large with this,sometimes some people will
(11:19):
think, well, you know what?
That's just Joe being Joe.
And he'll get through it, he'llget by.
Or I'll tap him on the shoulderand say, hey, is everything
okay?
Not really invested in what thatanswer would be, but I felt I've
done my part.
Again, rhetorically speaking.
So what is done or what can bedone, what I've seen done is
(11:41):
just the follow-up, just notletting those that you know slip
through the crack.
Unfortunately, there will be anumber that that is the case
that they do slip through thatcrack.
You try to minimize that.
I know that if I, and I hadseen, and I obviously wouldn't
name names or conditions orcircumstances, but I've seen
those that were struggling,active members, and even
(12:02):
retired.
They haven't adjusted to thetrauma that they encountered in
whatever capacity it came, be itsomething they encountered while
on the job, while working,something they encountered in
their personal life, but they'renot right.
They're not right.
Now I don't have that degreethat I can speak to them with
that level of professionalismthat's going to set them on the
right way, but I can still speakto them in that conversational
(12:25):
aspect or in that conversationaltone to get them to where they
need to be, to get them to theprograms that exist or to the
people to speak to further theconversation.
It's not going to start or endwith me, but it can with these
other entities, these otherindividuals, these other
programs that can best servethem.
So to get them there and to say,hey, did you follow up?
(12:46):
Did you call that number I gaveyou?
Did you email the person, thecompany, the entities that I
provided to you to see if theyare in fact doing so?
And then always just to followup with them at irregular
intervals to see, hey, how areyou doing?
I care for your well-being.
SPEAKER_01 (13:01):
Yeah, that's a great thing you're doing for sure.
When some of these people get toa point where they ultimately
need more help than what any ofthe first responders precincts
can do.
What are some of the steps thatyou do as a psychologist to help
them smooth things out andtamper everything down so they
can tolerate and live with allthe emotions that they've been
(13:23):
through?
SPEAKER_00 (13:24):
Sure, we have referral sources.
Most of them have kept theirhealth insurance for New York
City or Long Island or upstateor whatever they have.
So we can refer them to peoplethat are psychologists, social
workers, and sometimespsychiatrists if medication
seems to be needed, that taketheir insurance, that have
(13:47):
worked with many people in theirfield, and they're used to
hearing about a lot of theseproblems, and especially a
retired person will talk more.
They're glad to because theydon't have to worry that
somebody's gonna know they havea mental health record, even if
it's confidential between thetherapist, the insurance
company.
(14:07):
It doesn't go to the employerlike it used to 20 years ago
before HIPAA rules.
But the idea is that it'll beconfidential.
They don't have to worry aboutlosing their gun.
They do take a gun with them ifthey want to do security work or
for their own protection.
But normally that doesn't becomean issue is when they're on
active duty policing.
So, yes, we have plenty ofreferrals to healthcare
(14:30):
professionals, and they alwayshave that option.
Even without coming to us, theycan go directly.
But sometimes when we start torealize, hey, this guy needs a
little bit more, and maybe theirsituation or the precinct was a
lot more traumatic.
Every day you have to remember apolice officer sees more trauma
and horror in one day on the jobthan most people see in a
(14:55):
lifetime.
So, yes, we can refer them on tomental health resources and let
them know that many of theircolleagues use these resources
also, and the therapist issomebody that is used to dealing
with veterans, with police, withEMTs, and people who deal with
very high stress jobs.
SPEAKER_01 (15:12):
Yeah, I can't disagree with you there.
They're very high stress jobsand they do see a lot, a lot
more than the average personsees.
Now, most people they go towork, punch in, they get out of
work, they punch out.
But with your job, it can be a24-hour day job sometimes.
You might be off the clock, butthen you see something happens,
(15:34):
you can't just walk away fromit, and you jump in and try and
help out.
Then it creates another trauma,yet they go back to work like it
never happened.
How do you help them?
Because there are some that arevery good at masking their
feelings and their emotions andwhat they're going through.
Most people would never knowthat they were going through it
(15:55):
because they hide it so well.
How do you sift through that, orcan you sift through that not
knowing, so they don't go downthat deep dark hole that no one
wants to see them go into?
SPEAKER_00 (16:08):
Well, when they come on the website, there's some
knowledge that this isn'tnormal, that they've been
feeling bad lately.
Certainly, other policeofficers, other EMTs know about
the program, they can encourageit.
But a lot of them are taught onthe job, they have to mask their
(16:29):
feelings.
You know, I remember once a copsaying to me, he said, Oh, that
lady was frantic.
The cop was calm.
And the abuser in this case wascalm.
He was an ex-com.
Okay, he got kicked out becausehe was doing things that were
not acceptable and he wasn'tgoing for help.
But anyway, you're taught tokeep calm, not to show how
afraid or how angry or howdepressed you are.
(16:51):
So it's hard to put the maskdown, and that's one of the
aspects of the program.
You're taught this is a placewhere you can let your hair
down, let you take your maskoff.
You know how you shower aftergoing through a dirty
neighborhood or rummagingthrough garbage bins to find a
piece of evidence?
You shower.
You're not ashamed to do that.
That's what the post tollprocessing is.
SPEAKER_01 (17:14):
Yes, that makes perfect sense.
They're taught to mask it.
They're taught to stay calm.
Let's say they do it so well, sowell that most people around
them do not know that they aregoing through some very serious
issues.
Every time they go out, everytime they see something bad,
they're holding it in, and eachpiece of that puzzle is forming
(17:38):
a picture, and that picture isone that's going in a very bad
place.
So, how do you address this soit does not get out of control?
SPEAKER_00 (17:48):
Well, I would say it's situation specific.
What you're really teaching themis the ability to discriminate
among different situations.
When the ambulance pulls up andsomeone's badly hurt, you don't
have time to process feelings.
When you go home and you havesome time to go on the computer,
(18:10):
to go to post-processing, or toeven make a therapy appointment,
that's the proper time.
The therapist's office,post-tour processing, which
again can be anonymous.
So if there's something youwouldn't want to tell a
therapist, you can say it here.
And if you're anonymous, youknow it's not going to be
traced.
Because you can develop acertain paranoia after being in,
(18:32):
especially the police field.
You feel like everybody'slooking out to catch you at
something because you're alwayscatching people.
But there's a proper time andplace.
On the job, no.
Out of the job when you're homeand when you're safe in a safe
environment, the therapist andpostal processing are safe
environments.
SPEAKER_01 (18:52):
Now, Tom, I understand that there's kind of
a continuing education for firstresponders.
Is there one for continuingeducation on how to avoid any
circumstances that could putthem in a bad place with their
mental health?
SPEAKER_02 (19:09):
Well, insofar as certain degrees or programs that
I had taken.
SPEAKER_01 (19:14):
I'm thinking more of internal programs to where they
learn to process it and workwith it so that they don't have
any issues moving forward.
SPEAKER_02 (19:24):
Yes, that's twofold.
Now, there are members of theservice who are designated, who
work in those designated units,who are there 24 hours a day to
answer that call, and they arespecially trained for that.
To take that call, then for thefurtherance.
It could be just as Dr.
Gene had mentioned, to thenbring it to that program, to
(19:47):
that level, but at least to bethe first responder for the
first responders.
So there are speciallydesignated members of the
service who are set aside inthose units to be there for
help, and that's 24 hours a day,seven days a week.
Now, for a supervisor for acoworker, just to bring it down
to the most basic, immediatelevel, for a supervisor for a
(20:10):
coworker, your on the jobtraining is, and you're told
this, you're told this directly,implicitly.
Hey, are you okay?
Colloquially speaking, directlyspeaking, are you okay?
That manifests itself in anumber of ways through humor,
through direct conversation,through taking someone on the
side.
As a supervisor, yes, it was myresponsibility to identify, to
(20:33):
see those signs, verbal andnonverbal cues of is there
something manifesting here?
Is there a problem, potential,or an actuality?
Maybe something at home, maybesomething from a heavy job that
we left, something that is stillbugging this individual, this
officer.
So you try to identify that andyou try to talk with them, get
(20:54):
them to open up.
And a lot of times, as you bothmentioned, they're not willing
to do that.
There's a belief, and I've seenthis, I've seen this thankfully
erode over the years.
Where, again, when I had firstjoined the department, the
belief was you don't have totalk to anyone.
Again, overriding.
I'm speaking in generalitieshere.
You don't have to talk toanyone.
We're here, we'll handle thingswhen we close ranks, we'll
(21:18):
handle things in and ofourselves.
That has dissipated, that beliefhas eroded.
And I have seen that in my overtwo decades with the department,
and now having left it and stillbeing connected in the ways in
which I am, seeing that there isno blemish on your record or how
you're viewed in seeking thehelp that you need.
(21:40):
So there's the direct, thosethat are trained to answer and
respond, and those who are we'reall part of the same
organization, you just knowdon't turn a blind eye.
Don't say he or she will beokay.
Ask the question you do have aresponsibility.
You do have a responsibility.
And you have to act on that.
SPEAKER_01 (22:01):
I think that's great that you have that set up.
Now, you're talking New YorkCity, one of the largest cities
in the world.
You have a very large policeforce.
It's not like some of thesmaller towns or smaller cities
where everyone knows everyone.
How do you maintain that leveland that stability so that no
one falls through the cracks?
SPEAKER_00 (22:22):
Each precinct is like a little society, a
subsociety in itself.
And they do know the peoplewithin the precinct.
They look out for their brothersand their partners and their
friends.
So even though it's a large cityand there's a lot more crime and
a lot more violent crime as inany large city, it's a small
precinct or relatively small.
(22:44):
All right, Hugo, you were gonnasay something.
SPEAKER_02 (22:46):
Just to compound that answer, yes, that's true.
And I I was gonna speak exactlyto that.
You don't look in the totalityof the numbers, the amount, the
amount of um members of theservice and how are they served.
You're right.
Within each command, eachprecinct, each unit, there is
the oversight, there is thewatching over of the personnel
(23:09):
to identify.
So it's in its own respectivesilo that they see where an
issue, a problem, a question mayarise, may occur, and deal with
that.
Then when it has to go up theproverbial chain of command, it
does.
So at least they're able to beserved, at least they're able to
have that sort of guidance orpenning in of those individuals
(23:31):
that would need the services,whatever they may be, within
their own respective precinctunit designated command.
SPEAKER_01 (23:38):
Yeah, that's great.
And the reason why I ask that isbecause a lot of people look at
New York City and they justthink a large police force and
they don't think about smallerprecincts scattered around the
city.
This way they can support eachother, and I think that's a very
important thing for people toknow.
Yes, agreed.
Now, in closing, and I'll startwith you, Dr.
(23:59):
Sorello.
What do you think is importantfor the listeners to hear?
Not only on what you're doing,but how it applies to everything
you're trying to do to help thefirst responders.
SPEAKER_00 (24:12):
Okay, first of all, first and foremost, you don't
interfere with them whilethey're doing their job.
I mean, you you shouldn't haveto say that, but many people,
when it's their loved one thatwas just hurt, or when it's a
family member that did somethingbad, and that's why they called
the police.
You used to see that a lot morenow that there's education about
(24:34):
spouse abuse, but you would seethat in couples where the woman
usually would call the police.
He was threatening to bash myhead in, he broke this in the
house, he hit me.
She had a black eye, a bloodynose, but she doesn't want to
press charges.
And now there are laws tosupport the police officer.
If they suspect a felony's beencommitted, they have to arrest
(24:54):
the person, even if they theother person doesn't want them
arrested.
So you tell them, stay back, letthe police do their job, but you
also have to convince the policenot to use excessive violence
when it is not necessary.
And that's what the post-talkprocessing is about.
We don't want them to take alltheir trauma into one incident,
(25:15):
usually a domestic incidentwhere it's not needed.
SPEAKER_01 (25:17):
Yeah, that's great information.
Now, Tom, what would you like tosay to the listeners so they
understand how you are trying toself-police so that no one gets
hurt and everyone keeps movingforward in a mental state that
is healthy?
SPEAKER_02 (25:33):
I think the overarch with that is this police
officers, first responders, thewhole gamut of first responders,
all of them, all lines, they arepeople.
They are humans just likeeveryone else.
The cashier at the supermarket,sanitation worker, anyone, I
mean, anyone in any walk oflife, they're seen as first
(25:56):
responders.
They're seen as the heroes thatyou God willing, they're seen as
that, that who respond toemergency situations that others
would run away from.
They run towards the danger.
But they're seen, I think, inconversations that I've had over
the years, and doctors, I'm sureyou can endorse this statement
as well.
(26:16):
They're seen clinically, they'rejust seen as they are above the
general feel that you are justlike me.
These are family members, theseare husbands, wives, sons,
daughters.
They are people that they dealwith the same issues
health-wise, monetarilyspeaking, that everyone else
does.
And oftentimes it's not so easyto see them as that.
(26:39):
But in being the same as othersin every walk of life, that also
means that for mental anguish orstress, things that they deal
with, it doesn't just come offthem without any lasting
effects.
That's not true.
If anything, because of theirline of work, these effects are
deeper and longer lasting.
(27:00):
And the way to remedy theseeffects, this massive stress
that many of them deal with,they need this, as doctor had
mentioned, they need theseoutlets, these programs
available to them for them totake advantage of, because this
is where they are not like theothers, the cashier and the
(27:20):
other individuals who Imentioned, because they are
working on that level of dealingwith tremendous emergency
stress, pressure-packedsituations.
And when you're dealing withthat, and that's what you know
in your shift, shift in andshift out, then you need a way
to have that remedied when itgets to the point that you can't
take care of it yourself.
SPEAKER_01 (27:40):
Yeah, I think that's well stated and well said.
Now, can you tell people howthey can find you and a little
more information about yourorganization?
SPEAKER_00 (27:48):
Well, if you go under police officer post tour
processing, it's PTP for short.
PTP, and then put in post-tourprocessing our entire website,
and the names of some of the keystaff members will come up.
SPEAKER_01 (28:06):
Okay, perfect.
Well, this has been great.
Great conversation, greatinformation.
I really appreciate you takingthe time to join us today.
SPEAKER_00 (28:14):
Same here.
Thanks for the invitation.
SPEAKER_01 (28:16):
All right, thanks so much.
Thank you.
Oh, it's been my pleasure.
Thanks again.
Thanks for taking time out ofyour busy schedule to listen to
our show today.
We hope you enjoyed it as muchas we enjoyed bringing it to
you.
If you know someone who has astory to share, tell them to
(28:40):
contact us at why notme.world.
One last thing, spread the wordabout why not me.
Our conversations, our inspiringguest, the show.
You are not alone in this world.
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